WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:02.960 In the early two thousands, as conservative groups in the 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:09.119 United States began losing legal battles over LGBTQ rights and secularism, 3 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:13.480 they shifted their focus and money to Uganda, a country 4 00:00:13.519 --> 00:00:17.879 they identified as ideal ground for a religious takeover. Over 5 00:00:17.960 --> 00:00:22.199 twenty major American evangelical groups poured over fifty million dollars 6 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:26.679 into Africa, with Uganda receiving the massive amount of shared 7 00:00:27.559 --> 00:00:32.640 the United States. Christians were successful beyond their wildest dreams. Fundamentalist, 8 00:00:32.719 --> 00:00:37.679 evangelical and pentecostal movements successfully embedded themselves within the highest 9 00:00:37.719 --> 00:00:41.840 echelons of Ugandan governance, to the point where parliamentarians now 10 00:00:41.880 --> 00:00:47.119 openly base legislative goals on biblical mandates rather than constitutional 11 00:00:47.200 --> 00:00:52.320 law or science as in the United States. Ugandan lawmakers 12 00:00:52.320 --> 00:00:56.679 framed this effort as defending quote traditional Christian family values. 13 00:00:56.840 --> 00:00:59.920 The result, Uganda has seen a major surge in state 14 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:06.159 sanctioned arbitrary arrests, police torture, extortion, correctional rapes, the forced 15 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:11.040 evictions by local councils. The anti science religious climate has 16 00:01:11.079 --> 00:01:15.000 gotten so dangerous that vital HIV healthcare providers and human 17 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:17.799 rights organizations had to shut down out of fear for 18 00:01:17.840 --> 00:01:22.000 their safety. Oh And homosexuality is now punishable by death. 19 00:01:22.599 --> 00:01:24.239 This is not unique to Uganda. 20 00:01:24.480 --> 00:01:29.519 Russia recently developed a deep transactional symbiosis between Putin's authoritarian 21 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:33.560 state and the Russian Orthodox Church. As in Uganda, homosexually 22 00:01:33.560 --> 00:01:38.200 has been homosexuality has been criminalized. Unapproved versions of Christianity 23 00:01:38.280 --> 00:01:42.640 like Jehovah's Witnesses were banned, their property seized, and hundreds 24 00:01:42.640 --> 00:01:46.439 of their members subjected to torture and long term sentences to 25 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.040 Siberian penal colonies. Other Evangelical and Protestant groups in Russia 26 00:01:51.079 --> 00:01:54.680 faced tight restrictions, fines, and bans on worship outside of 27 00:01:54.760 --> 00:01:58.840 state approved buildings. Now, let's compare these early days of 28 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:02.079 those movements to what we're seeing in Texas. Over the 29 00:02:02.120 --> 00:02:05.480 last three years, Texas has been systematically dismantling the wall 30 00:02:05.519 --> 00:02:10.800 of separation, replacing trained school counselors with unlicensed anti science 31 00:02:10.879 --> 00:02:15.199 religious chaplains, forcing the Ten Commandments into every public classroom, 32 00:02:15.240 --> 00:02:20.039 and just this week, mandating Bible passages as required reading 33 00:02:20.439 --> 00:02:23.879 for millions of students. As in Uganda and Russia and 34 00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:26.680 other places, the religious right in Texas frames US as 35 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.479 harmless return to tradition and defending family values. 36 00:02:31.080 --> 00:02:32.000 But as we have. 37 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.080 Seen the consequences of similar movements around the world, show 38 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:38.639 us the true end game of codifying dogma into law 39 00:02:38.960 --> 00:02:42.759 by defining prosperity and security and religious terms. The state 40 00:02:42.879 --> 00:02:48.319 successfully framed human rights advocates, secularists, and minority communities as 41 00:02:48.360 --> 00:02:52.960 an existential threat to the state or nation, a thought 42 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:56.319 to end on. Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor once 43 00:02:56.360 --> 00:03:01.759 famously warned, quote those who would renegotiate the boundaries between 44 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:06.120 church and state must answer a difficult question, why would 45 00:03:06.120 --> 00:03:09.240 we trade a system that has served us so well 46 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.840 for one that has served others so poorly. If you 47 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.599 want to talk about this or any other religious issues, 48 00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:27.080 call us because the show starts now. Welcome, Welcome, Welcome, everybody. 49 00:03:27.120 --> 00:03:30.680 Today is June twenty eighth, twenty twenty six, and I 50 00:03:30.719 --> 00:03:33.120 want to welcome you to the atheist experience. Thank you 51 00:03:33.120 --> 00:03:35.960 for joining us. I'm the cross Examiner, and I'm delighted 52 00:03:36.000 --> 00:03:38.719 to say joining us right now is godless engineer. How 53 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:39.599 are you doing Godless? 54 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:42.960 Hey, I'm doing pretty good. I'm pretty excited today. I 55 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:45.400 know that we've already got some callers lined up and 56 00:03:45.479 --> 00:03:49.120 so I'm always up for some conversation. I'm I'm a 57 00:03:49.120 --> 00:03:51.680 little perturbed by the situation that we find ourselves in, 58 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:53.919 but you know, here in America. But you know, other 59 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:57.240 than that, I'm totally I'm totally stoked and excited today. 60 00:03:57.520 --> 00:03:59.719 Me too, Me too. We had we had some callers 61 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:02.159 left over from the last show. I did see that 62 00:04:02.240 --> 00:04:04.400 a couple I wanted to talk to have dropped off 63 00:04:04.479 --> 00:04:06.120 just as we started. I hope you didn't think that 64 00:04:06.159 --> 00:04:08.599 things were over. Call us back if you want to, 65 00:04:09.400 --> 00:04:11.639 because we're eager to take your call and talk about 66 00:04:11.639 --> 00:04:14.479 these things. Because I don't know about you, godless, but 67 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:17.920 I'm a firm believer that in talking with each other 68 00:04:18.040 --> 00:04:21.480 across the aisle, so to speak, the religious aisle, we 69 00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:24.519 can come to a better understanding of each other's positions 70 00:04:24.519 --> 00:04:27.519 and hopefully moderate each other to a point where we 71 00:04:27.560 --> 00:04:32.759 can get to live with each other without criminalizing homosexuality 72 00:04:32.879 --> 00:04:37.720 or prisoning people, or favoring my religious group in the 73 00:04:37.759 --> 00:04:39.000 tax law or whatever it may be. 74 00:04:40.040 --> 00:04:41.199 Yeah, no, same here. 75 00:04:41.319 --> 00:04:43.319 I mean, I hope that we can do that, But 76 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:45.240 you know, I feel like every. 77 00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:46.759 Day is a big letdown. 78 00:04:50.000 --> 00:04:52.959 So I mean, I can only hope that the future 79 00:04:53.040 --> 00:04:55.000 brings better days, but we'll see. 80 00:04:55.240 --> 00:04:59.560 Yeah, I agree, I agree. First, before we get these calls, 81 00:04:59.560 --> 00:05:01.199 I'm gonna get through this quickly so we can jump 82 00:05:01.279 --> 00:05:03.759 on them. We need to tell you that The Atheist 83 00:05:03.759 --> 00:05:07.160 Experience is a product of the Atheist Community of Austin, 84 00:05:07.240 --> 00:05:10.959 a five oh one c three nonprofit organization dedicated to 85 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.639 the promotion of atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism, and the 86 00:05:14.639 --> 00:05:18.360 separation of religion and government. This means the fact that 87 00:05:18.399 --> 00:05:20.839 it's a charity means that you can give us tax 88 00:05:20.879 --> 00:05:23.199 free donations as many as you want in fact, and 89 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:25.639 know that not only is it going to go to 90 00:05:25.680 --> 00:05:28.959 a good cause, but it also helps you too. We 91 00:05:29.000 --> 00:05:30.600 are I don't know if you've done this yet, John, 92 00:05:30.639 --> 00:05:34.079 but we are now try streaming triple streaming when we're live. 93 00:05:34.680 --> 00:05:37.720 A big shout out to our viewers on TikTok and 94 00:05:37.759 --> 00:05:41.000 YouTube mobile. If you're watching us tonight on TikTok and 95 00:05:41.040 --> 00:05:43.319 you'd like to talk to us, then request to join 96 00:05:43.399 --> 00:05:46.759 and we'll bring you up on stage. Please be sure, however, 97 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:49.720 if you do that, that you are eighteen or older. 98 00:05:50.519 --> 00:05:52.319 And with that, I think we should just jump into 99 00:05:52.360 --> 00:05:52.759 these calls. 100 00:05:52.759 --> 00:05:55.439 What do you think Oh yeah, I'm totally down for it. 101 00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:59.040 Okay, I'm fascinator. There's two that fascinate me. I'm going 102 00:05:59.120 --> 00:06:03.839 to start with Tom, who wants to share their experience 103 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:08.839 with God. And Tom did not give any pronouns. And 104 00:06:08.839 --> 00:06:11.040 it's Tom from Michigan. Tom, how you doing. 105 00:06:13.160 --> 00:06:14.279 I'm doing pretty well. 106 00:06:14.439 --> 00:06:14.879 I'm doing. 107 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:21.879 I'm all right. I just struggle with finding people to 108 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:26.399 have like friendships with or stuff like this. 109 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:27.079 I don't know. 110 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:34.480 I have certain friends, but none of them understand anything 111 00:06:34.600 --> 00:06:38.920 about me, and they kind of just think I'm I 112 00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:40.160 don't know, I don't know, they. 113 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:42.199 Don't think they think I think off. 114 00:06:43.240 --> 00:06:47.240 But I know this is true. And I don't talk 115 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:54.279 about this with like many people. I've told my closest friends. 116 00:06:54.319 --> 00:06:56.279 I've tried to talk to my dad about it, but 117 00:06:56.399 --> 00:06:59.279 my dad's like exactly kind of like you guys, where 118 00:06:59.600 --> 00:07:05.839 he's very atheist and he grew up with like just 119 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.480 things that make people atheist. 120 00:07:08.759 --> 00:07:12.560 And well, why don't we start from the beginning, then, Tom, 121 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.480 and tell us what you're talking about. So let's start 122 00:07:15.480 --> 00:07:17.759 with a question that we often ask people as a 123 00:07:17.759 --> 00:07:21.959 good starting point. What is it from a religious perspective? 124 00:07:22.000 --> 00:07:24.399 What is it that you believe. And more importantly, why 125 00:07:24.399 --> 00:07:25.160 do you believe it? 126 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:32.000 I believe in a higher being that brings I believe 127 00:07:32.040 --> 00:07:37.560 in love and these love feelings that I have and these. 128 00:07:37.560 --> 00:07:39.639 What do you believe about love? That love exists? 129 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:42.120 Yeah? 130 00:07:42.160 --> 00:07:46.519 So, John Godless, do you believe love exists? 131 00:07:46.959 --> 00:07:48.199 Yeah, it totally exists. 132 00:07:48.199 --> 00:07:50.439 I mean, it's obviously I think that it's you know, 133 00:07:50.519 --> 00:07:53.439 chemical reactions in our brains that gives us as certain experience. 134 00:07:55.519 --> 00:07:58.199 So sorry, the middle of my sentence interrupted the beginning 135 00:07:58.199 --> 00:07:58.720 of yours. 136 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:04.240 Yeah, Tom, just just I asked John a question Godless 137 00:08:04.279 --> 00:08:06.879 so we could get a consensus here and then we 138 00:08:06.879 --> 00:08:08.600 were going to throw it back to you. That's how 139 00:08:08.639 --> 00:08:11.639 the show works. So please Godless, do you continue? 140 00:08:11.800 --> 00:08:11.959 Yes? 141 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:17.120 So, like I understand, it is the chemical process that 142 00:08:17.160 --> 00:08:19.920 gives us those experiences, and so I don't need I 143 00:08:19.920 --> 00:08:25.600 don't see a need to like suppose a larger meaning 144 00:08:25.759 --> 00:08:29.639 to that. I feel like we can just have those 145 00:08:29.680 --> 00:08:32.879 experiences and let those experiences sit with how they are, 146 00:08:33.360 --> 00:08:37.519 as opposed to attributing them to some kind of magical 147 00:08:37.559 --> 00:08:41.960 wizard that is necessary for it or somehow enables us 148 00:08:42.000 --> 00:08:44.440 to have those feelings. I just don't see the need 149 00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.879 for that God or that wizard or however you want 150 00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:50.720 to present them. 151 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:53.559 I don't see the need for them in that process. 152 00:08:54.159 --> 00:08:57.120 What do you think, tom Oh, there is. 153 00:08:57.120 --> 00:08:57.799 I don't know. 154 00:08:57.879 --> 00:08:59.399 I don't know what to make that. 155 00:09:00.559 --> 00:09:04.799 I love well. I asked you what you believed from 156 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:07.840 a religious perspective and why, and the first thing you 157 00:09:07.919 --> 00:09:13.080 mentioned was love. So we assumed you meant love was 158 00:09:13.200 --> 00:09:16.840 God or there was a religious aspect to love. And 159 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:19.679 we told you, well, you know, we believe that love exists, 160 00:09:19.720 --> 00:09:22.159 so we agree with you that exists, but we don't 161 00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:24.080 think that there's a religious component. 162 00:09:23.759 --> 00:09:24.000 Do you. 163 00:09:24.639 --> 00:09:25.480 I don't know. 164 00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:30.600 I don't believe in everything that's been told in the Bibles. 165 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:32.519 I don't believe a lot of the Bible stuff. I 166 00:09:32.559 --> 00:09:36.080 believe that some of these stories are probably true. I 167 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:41.360 just know that there are deep feelings in hold on. 168 00:09:42.240 --> 00:09:44.120 I'm trying to answer. I'm trying to tell you something 169 00:09:44.120 --> 00:09:47.240 because this stuff doesn't make sense to me, or I 170 00:09:47.240 --> 00:09:50.000 don't really know how to make it. It does make sense. 171 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.720 To me, yeah, I mean sorry. I was trying to 172 00:09:52.759 --> 00:09:56.000 interject so that I could help guide you in getting 173 00:09:56.039 --> 00:09:58.879 your thoughts collected and so that maybe we can actually 174 00:09:58.919 --> 00:10:01.279 instead of meandering around in the dark. Maybe I can 175 00:10:01.320 --> 00:10:04.639 give you a flashlight, right, so maybe you can tell 176 00:10:04.720 --> 00:10:09.559 us exactly what, how how do you know or what 177 00:10:09.720 --> 00:10:13.480 exactly is compelling to you that convinces you that there's 178 00:10:13.519 --> 00:10:16.559 something beyond just our mere experience. 179 00:10:17.759 --> 00:10:21.480 None of this like that I have can be like 180 00:10:21.600 --> 00:10:24.919 provable or anything I'm going to say. But these are 181 00:10:25.120 --> 00:10:30.200 like experiences and places that I've been to and has experienced. 182 00:10:30.279 --> 00:10:33.000 But it's just like a place that I went to 183 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:36.639 and I don't know how I got there and I 184 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:41.440 came back and everything that I used to know or 185 00:10:41.639 --> 00:10:44.480 care about or and I didn't even know any when 186 00:10:44.480 --> 00:10:45.080 I came back. 187 00:10:45.120 --> 00:10:46.440 I didn't know who I was or. 188 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:47.639 Where I was, what I was. 189 00:10:47.799 --> 00:10:51.799 That's that's let me jump in, Tom, Well, you know 190 00:10:51.879 --> 00:10:54.240 you're in, you're talking, You're no. I'm going to guide 191 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:57.000 the conversation because this is our show and I've got 192 00:10:57.320 --> 00:10:59.679 lots of callers on the line, okay, and you're talking 193 00:10:59.720 --> 00:11:03.799 in these abstract ways. I had experiences. I didn't know 194 00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:05.639 who I was. I don't know what to take from 195 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.159 you as being literal or being figurative. What I am 196 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:14.360 interested in right now is from a religious pass Well, 197 00:11:14.360 --> 00:11:16.600 first of all, let's back this up to a higher level. 198 00:11:17.039 --> 00:11:20.600 Why are you calling today? What's your goal? Is your 199 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:22.960 goal to talk about your experiences or is your goal 200 00:11:23.000 --> 00:11:26.759 to talk about some assertion about God and why you 201 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:28.039 think it's true, wrong. 202 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:31.840 That God is not evil or something? And I just 203 00:11:32.000 --> 00:11:34.480 wanted to tell my story and tell you why I 204 00:11:34.519 --> 00:11:37.480 think that this is the most important thing. 205 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.080 And do you understand that a story is not the 206 00:11:41.120 --> 00:11:43.039 best way to present evidence? 207 00:11:43.159 --> 00:11:46.679 We are also special to have those, and of course 208 00:11:46.720 --> 00:11:53.240 there's a god, Tom, Tom, I'm muting you, Tom, So Tom, 209 00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.840 do you understand that a story is not the same 210 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:59.320 thing as presenting evidence as to. 211 00:11:59.279 --> 00:12:00.200 Why you're right? 212 00:12:00.679 --> 00:12:04.360 Right? I want you to contemplate this. If your goal, 213 00:12:04.480 --> 00:12:08.120 as you said, is to dispute the assertion that God 214 00:12:08.240 --> 00:12:11.960 is not evil, I would expect an answer along the 215 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:16.080 lines of God has the following attributes, those attributes are 216 00:12:16.080 --> 00:12:18.279 not evil, therefore God is not evil. 217 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:21.039 That would be like a sound and valid argument. 218 00:12:21.559 --> 00:12:25.200 What you're telling me is I think love is real, 219 00:12:25.360 --> 00:12:27.639 and I went places and I didn't know who I was. 220 00:12:27.840 --> 00:12:31.159 That's not a response to this prompt. Either you are 221 00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:34.759 unable right now, due to whatever reason, to answer the question, 222 00:12:34.919 --> 00:12:37.039 or you don't want to, So I'm going to give 223 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:37.879 you another chance. 224 00:12:38.919 --> 00:12:39.639 Tom. 225 00:12:40.080 --> 00:12:42.399 Why do you believe that there is a God and 226 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:43.759 that that God is not evil? 227 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:48.279 I tried to give you context before I told the story. 228 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:49.840 That's what that was. 229 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:54.200 Okay, we don't need the context. Give us your argument, and. 230 00:12:55.799 --> 00:12:57.039 I can't give you an argument. 231 00:12:57.279 --> 00:12:59.159 I can just okay, story, that's fair. 232 00:12:59.279 --> 00:13:06.000 Explain that explains these things, and that's that's all that 233 00:13:06.000 --> 00:13:06.960 that would matter. 234 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:10.480 But are you interested in any self examination today? What 235 00:13:11.200 --> 00:13:16.000 self examination? Turning your eye onto yourself and examining your 236 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:18.759 thought processes and your reasoning, Because I think there might 237 00:13:18.799 --> 00:13:21.559 be an interesting conversation to have in that spot that 238 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:25.559 might be interesting to our listeners. Specifically, the question would be, 239 00:13:26.399 --> 00:13:30.360 if you can't explain why you believe something, do you 240 00:13:30.440 --> 00:13:33.000 think that you should be believing it in the first place? 241 00:13:35.039 --> 00:13:35.559 Yeah? 242 00:13:36.240 --> 00:13:39.080 Do you think that's a good way to find truth? 243 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:42.799 These are feelings of love, feelings that aren't anything you'd 244 00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:46.679 ever have for like your kids, or your grandparents or 245 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:49.879 anyone you've ever known in your life. I was brought 246 00:13:49.919 --> 00:13:53.159 somewhere and I felt feelings that I can't describe or 247 00:13:53.159 --> 00:13:56.480 really ever put into words for you, But it was 248 00:13:56.519 --> 00:13:59.000 a place where So. 249 00:14:00.039 --> 00:14:02.480 Hold on, I'm sorry, but I need to interject here. 250 00:14:02.600 --> 00:14:05.120 I don't understand the purpose of your call, Tom. Is 251 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:08.279 it just because you wanted somebody to talk to? Because 252 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:11.000 if that's the case, then I suggest they're recovering from 253 00:14:11.039 --> 00:14:13.679 Religion Foundation. They have people there that are trained to 254 00:14:13.799 --> 00:14:15.600 actually help guide anybody. 255 00:14:16.320 --> 00:14:19.120 I wanted to try to tell you why God is 256 00:14:19.120 --> 00:14:22.200 the thing and that it's definitely real and. 257 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:27.120 Tell us why that instead of explaining how your thiefes 258 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:27.919 are today? 259 00:14:28.480 --> 00:14:30.200 Can you do that for us? Tom? 260 00:14:30.679 --> 00:14:33.320 Well, well, it's a part of my dream and it's 261 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:34.279 a story that I have. 262 00:14:34.559 --> 00:14:37.720 Yeah, okay, let mean, let me give you an example, Tom, 263 00:14:37.840 --> 00:14:42.279 of what we're getting at, uh, godless engineers an engineer, 264 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.399 I'm an attorney. We deal with you know, science based, 265 00:14:46.559 --> 00:14:50.720 evidence based reasoning and logic. It's kind of like, you 266 00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:54.480 know how the world gets better, right, It is how 267 00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:56.960 we build bridges that don't fall down and kill people 268 00:14:57.000 --> 00:14:58.679 because it's not because we felt like it was a 269 00:14:58.679 --> 00:15:01.080 good way to build a bridge. It's because we've measured 270 00:15:01.080 --> 00:15:03.720 the tensile strength of this particular bolt under this amount 271 00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.039 of pressure. If I went into court and I said, 272 00:15:07.399 --> 00:15:11.600 my client is not guilty because I had a dream 273 00:15:12.120 --> 00:15:15.480 and it took me to a place and I felt 274 00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:20.159 so much love for my client. He couldn't possibly have 275 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:24.200 shot the victim. Right, you would laugh me out of court. 276 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:27.360 I hope as a juror, do you agree with that 277 00:15:27.360 --> 00:15:29.240 that that would be not a good way to get 278 00:15:29.279 --> 00:15:31.559 to the truth if you were in a court of law. 279 00:15:32.720 --> 00:15:34.480 I'm not It's just stupid arguments. 280 00:15:34.559 --> 00:15:38.080 I'm not debating you in okay. Thing I'm here to 281 00:15:38.120 --> 00:15:42.159 talk about, yeah, off topic. Thing is is evidence. That's 282 00:15:42.200 --> 00:15:45.440 what I'm talking about. Evidence for your claim God exists, 283 00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.559 and your evidence is I don't care the details of 284 00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:50.840 your story. Your evidence is a personal story. 285 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:54.759 Evidence has been hidden and deleted, and there's scholars that 286 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:58.120 think they know everything to try and make us brainwashed 287 00:15:58.159 --> 00:15:59.759 into believing this. 288 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:03.000 There now we're making some claims. What evidence do you 289 00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:03.559 have of that? 290 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:09.039 There are scholars everywhere who make everyone think that they 291 00:16:09.039 --> 00:16:11.200 are right and so right. 292 00:16:12.360 --> 00:16:18.519 I would argue. 293 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.840 Everything, and then they made these people and claimed them to. 294 00:16:18.759 --> 00:16:21.519 Be so John, what's your take on this? 295 00:16:22.320 --> 00:16:24.600 Well, I feel like what thom is saying here is 296 00:16:24.639 --> 00:16:27.080 that he had a dream that meant that made him 297 00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.320 believe that God was real, and so he wants to 298 00:16:29.360 --> 00:16:32.320 come up here and tell us in a vivid detail 299 00:16:32.399 --> 00:16:36.080 what his dream was so that we will then admit 300 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:39.159 that his God is real. But I don't see how 301 00:16:39.279 --> 00:16:42.480 a dream that he had where I'm not exactly sure 302 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:44.440 what he was going through there. That's why I suggested 303 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:47.559 the we're recovering from religion foundation. But it seems like 304 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.559 he had an intense experience that made him believe in God, 305 00:16:50.759 --> 00:16:53.960 and maybe it's a little uncomfortable for him to consider 306 00:16:54.000 --> 00:16:56.720 that other people don't believe it. Maybe he's getting a 307 00:16:56.759 --> 00:16:59.279 little bit of pushback from home, like hey, dude, that's 308 00:16:59.440 --> 00:17:02.080 just a dream, you know. Like I've had a dream 309 00:17:02.679 --> 00:17:06.079 where I was crawling at skyscraper heights and then I 310 00:17:06.119 --> 00:17:08.880 started to fall and that was scary. But that doesn't 311 00:17:08.920 --> 00:17:12.599 mean that, you know, the giant skyscraper, you know, horrible 312 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:16.680 reality is actually true in some kind of way. So Tom, 313 00:17:16.960 --> 00:17:19.720 when we bring you off of mute, I would really 314 00:17:19.799 --> 00:17:23.759 love for something other than a dream or a vision or. 315 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:27.039 Something like that, or conspiracy theory or conspiracy theory. 316 00:17:27.400 --> 00:17:30.000 How do you know that your God is real? Don't 317 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.119 shit talk, scholars, don't shit talk other people. Just tell 318 00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:37.759 me why do you believe what you believe about God? 319 00:17:39.640 --> 00:17:42.839 Because I get these love feelings from him and these 320 00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:43.799 other things. 321 00:17:43.559 --> 00:17:46.119 And now we're right back to the very beginning of 322 00:17:46.119 --> 00:17:46.920 our conversation. 323 00:17:47.519 --> 00:17:52.240 Where you use the love feelings? Is just using your 324 00:17:52.279 --> 00:17:56.680 word here your words the love feelings that you feel. 325 00:17:57.200 --> 00:18:01.799 Where does God take parts in the process of that 326 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.039 experience of love? In my view, let me explain to 327 00:18:05.079 --> 00:18:07.200 you my view, and then I'll let you answer. In 328 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.400 my view, it's a chemical reaction in your head that 329 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:13.720 operates within the structure of your brain, and how your 330 00:18:13.720 --> 00:18:16.880 brain operates, and how you feel those feelings, how you 331 00:18:16.920 --> 00:18:21.480 have those experiences that cause other complex interactions with the 332 00:18:21.519 --> 00:18:24.119 other parts of your brain that then give you that 333 00:18:24.200 --> 00:18:27.200 full experience of love. Now, I don't know where God 334 00:18:27.279 --> 00:18:30.480 factors into that. Maybe you can tell me point to 335 00:18:30.599 --> 00:18:32.079 the part of the brain or the part of the 336 00:18:32.119 --> 00:18:36.279 process where God factors into it. 337 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:39.039 It's got nothing to do with the brain or anything. 338 00:18:39.079 --> 00:18:43.480 Have you that's a great response. Have you ever? What 339 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:47.400 evidence do you have that feelings exist in the universe 340 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:48.480 absent a brain? 341 00:18:49.960 --> 00:18:54.759 Because I remember, man, I can't I can't say anything. 342 00:18:55.119 --> 00:18:59.920 Let me put it in another way, my body, Where 343 00:19:00.160 --> 00:19:01.279 do rocks have feelings? 344 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:03.319 Tom was nothing but a consciousness? 345 00:19:03.680 --> 00:19:06.839 Do you see Tom? Tom? 346 00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:08.119 Tom? 347 00:19:08.359 --> 00:19:08.640 What? 348 00:19:08.759 --> 00:19:09.359 Tom? Tom? 349 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:10.039 Yeah? 350 00:19:10.119 --> 00:19:11.319 Do rocks have feelings? 351 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:12.359 I don't know. 352 00:19:13.160 --> 00:19:14.680 Do you think they have feelings? 353 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:17.599 What's more likely a rock has feelings or a rock 354 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:18.480 doesn't have feelings? 355 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:19.200 What's more likely? 356 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.480 Probably not? 357 00:19:21.119 --> 00:19:23.119 Okay, So at least we can agree on that. 358 00:19:23.839 --> 00:19:26.640 I have yet to experience anything that doesn't have a 359 00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:30.839 brain that I have any evidence of that it experiences feelings. 360 00:19:31.200 --> 00:19:33.599 I think you would agree if we took thirty minutes 361 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.240 to pin you down on that. So I'm going to 362 00:19:35.279 --> 00:19:37.799 shortcut that and just say I think we agree. It's 363 00:19:37.880 --> 00:19:41.200 much more likely that nothing without a brain has feelings, 364 00:19:41.400 --> 00:19:44.920 So I'm just setting that up. So then my follow 365 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:50.799 on question is what creates feelings in brains? Is there 366 00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:54.400 only one cause or can there be multiple causes? And 367 00:19:54.440 --> 00:19:58.039 then my second question is can the person experience the 368 00:19:58.079 --> 00:20:02.319 feelings experiencing the feelings? Can the person experiencing the feelings 369 00:20:02.599 --> 00:20:05.319 be wrong about the cause of those feelings? 370 00:20:05.839 --> 00:20:06.079 I e. 371 00:20:06.359 --> 00:20:08.400 Could you be wrong about the source of your feelings? 372 00:20:08.880 --> 00:20:12.400 That's what those beings? Do? They want to. 373 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:16.720 Answer the question? Tom, Tom? Tom, Tom, answer the question 374 00:20:16.839 --> 00:20:18.160 why aren't you answering the question. 375 00:20:18.240 --> 00:20:21.519 Tom, maybe you should use his name Matthew. 376 00:20:22.519 --> 00:20:27.440 Tom, answer the question or admit that you were unwilling 377 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:31.680 to answer the question. Could you be wrong about the 378 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:33.000 source of your feelings? 379 00:20:34.720 --> 00:20:35.279 No? 380 00:20:35.279 --> 00:20:40.000 No, okay, you are infallible. Congratulations you got anything else? Godless? 381 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.680 Yeah, Matthew, I'm just kind of curious. Sorry, Tom, I'm 382 00:20:44.720 --> 00:20:48.480 just kind of curious, like since you since you don't 383 00:20:48.480 --> 00:20:51.119 really have a good answer for where God factors into 384 00:20:51.160 --> 00:20:53.839 the process of love that we have, the chemical processes. 385 00:20:54.000 --> 00:20:56.880 There is no real answer for this. I can't actually 386 00:20:57.240 --> 00:21:00.279 explain it to you. I just know about. 387 00:21:00.680 --> 00:21:03.079 Then why then, why should we believe in your version 388 00:21:03.079 --> 00:21:05.759 of God places that I have been If you can't, 389 00:21:05.880 --> 00:21:10.039 if you can't explain, Matthew, Matthew, lock in, lock in, Matthew, Matthew, 390 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:10.640 listen to me. 391 00:21:11.440 --> 00:21:12.240 You. 392 00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:16.680 If you can't explain it to us, then then why 393 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:19.000 do you think that we should believe in your version 394 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.640 of God? Why does it bother you so much that 395 00:21:21.680 --> 00:21:23.960 we don't believe in God, or that your dad doesn't 396 00:21:23.960 --> 00:21:26.440 believe in God doesn't bother me, then why are you 397 00:21:26.519 --> 00:21:30.319 calling in? It bothered you enough to call in because 398 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:32.880 we don't believe in God, and you wanted to explain 399 00:21:32.920 --> 00:21:34.400 why your God exists. 400 00:21:35.039 --> 00:21:37.960 No, no, no, I wanted to tell you a thing 401 00:21:38.039 --> 00:21:41.279 that I experienced that was way more than it felt 402 00:21:42.039 --> 00:21:47.480 like reality was this reality feels way less than this 403 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.680 place that I was in. 404 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:53.960 How can we just differentiate your experience from the experience 405 00:21:54.039 --> 00:21:58.599 of somebody who's wrong experienced. How can we differentiate your 406 00:21:58.680 --> 00:22:02.359 experience from somebody who was on LSD but didn't know it. 407 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:05.599 How can I tell the difference? You've gotta believe in me. 408 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:10.079 How can I tell the difference and you can take it? Tom? 409 00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.240 You're talking and not listening. How can I tell the 410 00:22:13.279 --> 00:22:17.720 difference between what you say is happening and somebody else 411 00:22:17.720 --> 00:22:21.200 who has a different version of the story but is wrong, 412 00:22:21.799 --> 00:22:23.920 like they were on LSD they got doosed and didn't 413 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.640 know it. How could I tell the difference between you 414 00:22:26.720 --> 00:22:28.759 two that you were right and the other person who 415 00:22:28.799 --> 00:22:30.880 was unknowingly on LSD was wrong. 416 00:22:31.319 --> 00:22:35.039 Because mine gets into things that the person on LSD 417 00:22:35.160 --> 00:22:36.519 would have never gotten into. 418 00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:41.279 Okay, you're just wrong, Tom, you just have no logic whatsoever. 419 00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:45.440 Matthew, Matthew, let's lock in right and and you're just false. 420 00:22:45.480 --> 00:22:49.000 There the LSD and the hypothetical the LSD person has 421 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:54.920 the exact same quality quantity of experience as you have. 422 00:22:55.319 --> 00:22:56.799 It's exactly the same. 423 00:22:57.319 --> 00:23:01.880 What's the differentiating factor in those experiences that makes yours? 424 00:23:02.160 --> 00:23:03.200 That makes yours real? 425 00:23:03.519 --> 00:23:08.440 And there's not, because mine lasts forever. And I don't 426 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:10.400 know who I am when I woke up in there, 427 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.559 and I didn't know who I was when I came back, 428 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:13.559 and I didn't know anything. 429 00:23:13.799 --> 00:23:16.720 See, you think someone tripping out on LSD is gonna 430 00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:19.000 know who in the fuck they are in the moment, Like, 431 00:23:19.720 --> 00:23:22.039 I mean, I've never done LSD's I guess. 432 00:23:21.799 --> 00:23:25.519 I don't know, but the same I mean, his saying 433 00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:30.480 mine lasts forever is actually, quite frankly, the most logical 434 00:23:30.519 --> 00:23:33.880 thing you've said today, Tom, Like, we could run experiments 435 00:23:33.880 --> 00:23:36.599 where we monitor somebody's blood intake and all that, but 436 00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:38.680 that wasn't the point, and I think you know that 437 00:23:38.759 --> 00:23:41.559 wasn't the point. The point is, as a third party observer, 438 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:44.640 I'm getting testimony from you that you're right because you 439 00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.039 say you're right, because you feel you're right. And I 440 00:23:47.039 --> 00:23:50.319 get testimony from somebody else who calls me and says 441 00:23:51.119 --> 00:23:53.480 God is evil. And I know that because I feel 442 00:23:53.480 --> 00:23:56.640 all this hate from God, and it lasts forever, and 443 00:23:56.680 --> 00:23:59.480 I'm convinced that I'm true because I feel it's true. 444 00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:01.920 And then when I ask that person how I could tell 445 00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:04.839 the difference between you two, he says, because this other 446 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:08.279 guy's wrong, just like you're saying he's wrong. How do 447 00:24:08.400 --> 00:24:11.440 I get out of that spider man situation where we're 448 00:24:11.480 --> 00:24:13.519 pointing at each other as to which one's wrong and 449 00:24:13.559 --> 00:24:16.920 which one's right. And to date, you haven't given us 450 00:24:16.960 --> 00:24:20.519 anything other than trust me, Bro, And that's not a 451 00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:23.960 good way to find out the truth. Anybody else comes 452 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.359 to you with a proposition about something you should or 453 00:24:26.359 --> 00:24:29.559 shouldn't do, ninety nine percent of the time they're going 454 00:24:29.640 --> 00:24:32.000 to have some evidence that they give you that will 455 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:34.720 lend support. Now it may be fabricated, but at least 456 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:37.359 it'll be evidence. It's not just trust me, Bro. I 457 00:24:37.400 --> 00:24:39.559 wouldn't trust you if you said, hey, invest with me, 458 00:24:39.599 --> 00:24:42.200 give me a million dollars. I'll turn it over tenfold 459 00:24:42.200 --> 00:24:45.279 in ten days. Trust me, Bro. So why should we 460 00:24:45.319 --> 00:24:47.960 believe anything you say? What evidence do you have other 461 00:24:48.039 --> 00:24:49.119 than your feelings? 462 00:24:51.000 --> 00:24:57.440 I mean, they're not like my feelings. These were real 463 00:24:57.519 --> 00:24:59.599 places that I've been to No. 464 00:25:00.640 --> 00:25:03.240 You started off saying that it was your feelings, like 465 00:25:03.319 --> 00:25:09.759 these were your deep love feelings, right right, said yeah. 466 00:25:09.240 --> 00:25:12.640 All right, Yeah, I appreciate the call. Tom, have a 467 00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:16.440 good day. We'll we'll work with you again if you 468 00:25:16.519 --> 00:25:19.680 call back someday. But man, that's not the best way 469 00:25:19.720 --> 00:25:21.920 to kick off the show with somebody that that. I mean, 470 00:25:22.960 --> 00:25:25.720 I guess I have to address anybody that's watching. If 471 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:28.160 you are a religious person of any stripe, do you 472 00:25:28.200 --> 00:25:31.359 think that Tom was the best argument for the existence 473 00:25:31.400 --> 00:25:34.119 of God if not give us a call. We gave 474 00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:36.480 him a chance. I don't think we were rude, but 475 00:25:36.720 --> 00:25:40.920 my goodness, I don't. I think that's the most abstract, 476 00:25:40.960 --> 00:25:43.759 illogical call I've gotten in years. 477 00:25:44.359 --> 00:25:44.599 Yeah. 478 00:25:44.680 --> 00:25:46.799 I do want to emphasize to people that if you 479 00:25:46.839 --> 00:25:49.160 feel the need that you know you want to call 480 00:25:49.200 --> 00:25:52.079 an express like these thoughts or feelings that you have 481 00:25:52.160 --> 00:25:55.839 and you're confused by them, there are you know, there 482 00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:58.400 are plenty of organizations out there. Recovering from religion is 483 00:25:58.400 --> 00:25:59.920 a perfect organization to call it. 484 00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:01.319 They have like a chat line. 485 00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.880 They've also both textual chat on their website as well 486 00:26:04.920 --> 00:26:07.279 as you can call in or you can use a 487 00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:10.880 Seculartherapy dot org and you can get a line on 488 00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.079 some good secular therapy either one. Those would be the 489 00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:16.279 places to call in and talk about your feelings and 490 00:26:16.319 --> 00:26:18.119 how they made you feel, and how confused you are 491 00:26:18.359 --> 00:26:21.240 as opposed to well, I mean, I'm just an asshole 492 00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:23.960 on the internet, you know, just calling an asshole on 493 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:26.680 the internet and asks them what their thoughts are on 494 00:26:26.720 --> 00:26:29.240 it or something, trying to convince them of one thing 495 00:26:29.319 --> 00:26:29.720 or another. 496 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:32.079 So, yeah, that's what I would suggest. 497 00:26:32.640 --> 00:26:37.640 I agree. I echo that I have serious concerns about 498 00:26:38.359 --> 00:26:40.519 the what Tom is going through. 499 00:26:40.559 --> 00:26:41.240 I'll leave it at that. 500 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:46.240 I hope Tom you find the help you need to 501 00:26:46.279 --> 00:26:49.319 address these issues. I think that if you're finding that 502 00:26:49.400 --> 00:26:52.720 everybody you know and everybody who cares for you, and 503 00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.000 people on the internet who do this for a living 504 00:26:55.000 --> 00:26:58.599 and analyze sort of claims, if you find everybody is 505 00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:03.279 in your eye ignoring you and maybe even eventually in 506 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.640 a conspiracy against you to hide the truth, I think 507 00:27:06.680 --> 00:27:08.960 that's a sign you really need to talk that out, 508 00:27:09.319 --> 00:27:11.960 because I'd be very worried if you lived your life 509 00:27:12.000 --> 00:27:15.279 that way and didn't sort of face the question of 510 00:27:15.880 --> 00:27:18.000 what if I'm wrong, what if this is just an 511 00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:21.240 experience or a feeling I'm going through. I've told this 512 00:27:21.279 --> 00:27:23.519 story before on the show. The very short version is 513 00:27:24.240 --> 00:27:26.440 went through a fifteen hour surgery, came out of it. 514 00:27:26.559 --> 00:27:29.279 The nurse was trying to steal my stuff and not 515 00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:33.079 feed me in all these things, and after investigation of 516 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.200 a good friend of mine, she found out, oh, you 517 00:27:35.240 --> 00:27:38.240 were put on this new pain med. Attending comes over, 518 00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:40.359 he goes, oh, yeah, we're putting you on the old 519 00:27:40.400 --> 00:27:42.720 pain med. As soon as that happened, nurse was the 520 00:27:42.799 --> 00:27:45.400 nicest person, and I realized I was just imagining the 521 00:27:45.400 --> 00:27:47.880 whole thing. But while it was going on, I would 522 00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:50.960 have sworn under oath, at the risk of losing my livelihood, 523 00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:53.880 losing my law license, I would have sworn that this 524 00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:57.319 was going on. You have to understand that your mental 525 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:02.000 state is only evidence of your mental state. It's not 526 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:07.039 evidence of anything else. Physical evidence is great, consensus evidence 527 00:28:07.119 --> 00:28:11.400 is great, but anecdotes, especially of one and where the 528 00:28:11.440 --> 00:28:14.480 anecdote includes everybody around me is trying to convince me 529 00:28:14.519 --> 00:28:17.640 I'm wrong. You might want to start looking into the 530 00:28:17.640 --> 00:28:20.559 possibility that you're wrong, and there's other causes. I don't 531 00:28:20.559 --> 00:28:22.759 know if you've ever had any of those experiences godless 532 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:24.599 where you're like, man, it could be little things like 533 00:28:25.119 --> 00:28:27.359 I swear to God this thing happened and everybody with 534 00:28:27.400 --> 00:28:28.960 me was wrong. And then I look at the video 535 00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:31.240 that was taken us. Nope, it didn't happen. But I 536 00:28:31.240 --> 00:28:33.400 think we've all had moments where we were convinced but 537 00:28:33.440 --> 00:28:34.000 we were wrong. 538 00:28:34.640 --> 00:28:38.079 Oh yeah, I mean I'm wrong all the time. My 539 00:28:38.200 --> 00:28:40.559 wife is sure to point out when I am. So 540 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:42.720 you know, I've got that good barometer there. 541 00:28:42.839 --> 00:28:47.480 Excellent, very good. Okay, So, callers, I think you can 542 00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:50.319 do better than that. We set a very low bar here. 543 00:28:50.519 --> 00:28:54.720 If you want to defend what Christians are doing in Texas, 544 00:28:54.960 --> 00:28:57.440 call us. If you think that what happened in Uganda 545 00:28:57.480 --> 00:28:59.440 and the name of Christianity. 546 00:28:58.880 --> 00:28:59.920 Was good, call it. 547 00:29:01.559 --> 00:29:03.720 We have other callers. I have a few announcements and 548 00:29:03.759 --> 00:29:06.519 we'll get to you. Callers. First of all, please like 549 00:29:06.559 --> 00:29:09.480 the video and subscribe to the channel, enable notifications, and 550 00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:14.039 comment below on your favorite caller right now, we have one, 551 00:29:14.240 --> 00:29:16.799 maybe he's your favorite. Another way to support us is 552 00:29:16.799 --> 00:29:19.240 by sending in super chats. Get them in and we 553 00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:23.839 will read as many as possible on the air. That's 554 00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:28.519 a great way to support the team. Next, if you're 555 00:29:28.559 --> 00:29:31.599 in the Austin area, which is where the ACA is located, 556 00:29:31.640 --> 00:29:34.799 of course, follow us on meetup to keep up with 557 00:29:35.039 --> 00:29:38.039 community events. You can see what's going on at tiny 558 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:44.400 dot cc slash ACA Meetup. There's events like Philosophy under 559 00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:49.359 the Stars, game Nights and more. Next, you can join 560 00:29:49.559 --> 00:29:52.240 our weekly watch parties at the Free Thought Library on 561 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:55.000 Sundays for live viewings of Talk Heathen and The Atheist 562 00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:57.880 Experience every Sunday, doors open at noon and it's a 563 00:29:57.920 --> 00:30:04.599 great place for community building. Last, but not least, we 564 00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.960 have to thank the people who screen the calls like 565 00:30:08.039 --> 00:30:10.559 you just heard and try to figure out what there 566 00:30:10.599 --> 00:30:13.240 are before they get on stage. The people who man 567 00:30:13.279 --> 00:30:17.000 the microphones, the cameras, the mixer boards, get the streams 568 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.720 together across three different platforms every single show, every single week. 569 00:30:20.880 --> 00:30:23.559 There they are a big thank you to our crew 570 00:30:23.680 --> 00:30:27.359 who put this show together every week. Video operators, audio operators, 571 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.640 note takers, call screeners, chat moderators. Would you like to 572 00:30:30.680 --> 00:30:37.359 be one of these gorgeous, attractive, financially successful gods among 573 00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:41.839 men and women. Would you like to be a guest 574 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:43.799 on one of our shows? Would you like to try 575 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:46.960 hosting a show. We're always looking out for people interested 576 00:30:46.960 --> 00:30:50.200 in being a part of our productions, so if you're interested, 577 00:30:50.279 --> 00:30:55.799 please email volunteer at Atheist Hyphencommunity dot org to get involved. 578 00:30:56.119 --> 00:30:59.160 That's what I did several years ago, and I've really 579 00:30:59.240 --> 00:31:01.359 enjoyed working with the team. I eventually got to go 580 00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:03.960 out for the back cruise one year. That was awesome. 581 00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:06.240 Have you done the back cruise? Godless. 582 00:31:06.559 --> 00:31:09.480 I have not been lucky enough to do the bat yet, 583 00:31:09.559 --> 00:31:12.519 but I'm hoping to make it out there one year. 584 00:31:12.640 --> 00:31:16.480 I think that I think that I'm a little preoccupied this. 585 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.799 Time around too. Yeah, but I'm really hoping. 586 00:31:20.200 --> 00:31:22.640 Yeah, yeah, I'm really hoping to make it out there 587 00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:23.200 sometime soon. 588 00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.400 Okay, all right, well maybe we can see each other 589 00:31:26.480 --> 00:31:28.799 one of these years. I'm gonna take the next caller, 590 00:31:28.880 --> 00:31:31.440 unless you have any any other comments on the on 591 00:31:31.559 --> 00:31:34.640 the amazingly attractive crew we just showed. 592 00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:37.440 I'm really appreciative of the crew. 593 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:40.039 They make things happen here, so I'm so glad that 594 00:31:40.079 --> 00:31:42.440 they're they're able to make stuff work all the time. 595 00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:45.279 It's stunningly good what they do. All Right, we're gonna 596 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:46.920 go to Gannon, who's been on the line. I know 597 00:31:46.960 --> 00:31:48.559 we have a few other callers. We will get you. 598 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:54.000 Please hold on, Gannon. No pronouns given from California. All 599 00:31:54.200 --> 00:31:59.039 the comment is is crazy Jesus doom saying believer. 600 00:31:59.200 --> 00:31:59.680 I don't know. 601 00:32:00.079 --> 00:32:03.160 I don't think our callscreener wrote this, but maybe that 602 00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:04.680 does describe you, Gannon? 603 00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:06.839 What would you like to talk about today? 604 00:32:06.839 --> 00:32:09.359 Would you like to talk about crazy Jesus believing doom 605 00:32:09.359 --> 00:32:10.119 saying mad men? 606 00:32:11.599 --> 00:32:16.680 It's funny. That's really funny what he said. When you 607 00:32:16.720 --> 00:32:17.960 see something like that. 608 00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.720 I am I'm having trouble hearing you. Can you hold 609 00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:22.559 your mic closer to your mouth. 610 00:32:24.079 --> 00:32:25.400 To you right now? Can you hear me? 611 00:32:25.799 --> 00:32:30.000 There we go. That's much better. So are you a 612 00:32:30.039 --> 00:32:33.119 doom saying madmen? Or do you want to talk about them? 613 00:32:33.240 --> 00:32:33.799 You don't, you know. 614 00:32:34.000 --> 00:32:37.720 I just wanted to share my experience. It's just like 615 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:41.160 Tommy was trying to share his, and I hope Tommy 616 00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:44.440 is what he's searching for. I gotta tell. 617 00:32:44.279 --> 00:32:47.480 You, do you think quick question before you get into 618 00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:50.640 your story. Do you think Tommy was searching for something? 619 00:32:50.759 --> 00:32:53.799 Or was Tommy just trying to reaffirm his currently held beliefs. 620 00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.039 I hope that you're searching for something, and you're interested 621 00:32:57.079 --> 00:32:59.680 in the conversation. Tommy just wanted to just keep repeating 622 00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:02.200 his life. So what do you think was Tommy searching 623 00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:02.839 for an answer? 624 00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:06.720 I think he's a confused gentleman and the right elsewhere 625 00:33:06.759 --> 00:33:07.640 would bring him in. 626 00:33:08.039 --> 00:33:10.119 Yeah, all right, go ahead for it, Cannon. What do 627 00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:10.960 you believe in? Why? 628 00:33:12.480 --> 00:33:14.559 The first thing I want to say, I'm really I'm 629 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:20.599 really honored to be amongst a lawyer and somebody that's 630 00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.200 a general engineer. I think that's what you said. You 631 00:33:23.240 --> 00:33:26.559 guys are pretty smart, and you know I'm just a layman. 632 00:33:26.960 --> 00:33:29.559 I was born and raised in California, and I've worked 633 00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:31.119 my butt off. 634 00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:33.160 All my life like most laymen do. 635 00:33:33.920 --> 00:33:37.839 And ever since I was a child, I've been interested 636 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:39.680 and I started reading this. 637 00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:44.839 Could you give us a statement first, and then we 638 00:33:44.839 --> 00:33:47.119 can get to the story if it's relevant. I asked 639 00:33:47.119 --> 00:33:49.319 you what you believe in why? And we've heard a preamble, 640 00:33:49.680 --> 00:33:50.960 So why don't you get to the point. We have 641 00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.519 a lot of callers, So what do you believe with 642 00:33:53.559 --> 00:33:55.039 respect to gods and why? 643 00:33:55.680 --> 00:33:56.960 I believe they've been right there. 644 00:33:57.559 --> 00:34:01.160 I believe that we've been taught traditions and and you've 645 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:03.680 got to look at your history and study to see 646 00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:08.760 what the enemy has done. 647 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:12.840 Okay, So I'm taking it. 648 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:15.599 I'm taking it that you believe that there is a 649 00:34:15.679 --> 00:34:18.320 God and that there is a Satan. Is that correct? 650 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.880 His name's not God, he is not a God. Okay 651 00:34:22.920 --> 00:34:25.960 the Hebrew that's the English word, and that's wrong. 652 00:34:26.519 --> 00:34:31.239 In fact, let's not argue about definitions. That's a losing argument, Gannon. 653 00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:36.840 The traditional idea that people have of a supernatural, very powerful, 654 00:34:37.000 --> 00:34:40.960 possibly creator of the universe is what generally people call 655 00:34:41.119 --> 00:34:43.119 God or whatever you want to call it. Do you 656 00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:44.800 believe that one of those exists? 657 00:34:45.719 --> 00:34:46.559 Most definitely? 658 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:48.039 Why? 659 00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:50.480 Why do you believe that that thing exists? 660 00:34:51.199 --> 00:34:56.400 Because just the evidence alone of I believe the name 661 00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:57.480 is not Jesus. 662 00:34:57.480 --> 00:35:07.000 The name doesn't matter. I won't say it again, Scannon Gannon. 663 00:35:04.840 --> 00:35:09.280 You're a lawyer. You're a lawyer. 664 00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:10.599 The name matters. 665 00:35:10.920 --> 00:35:13.840 You're a lawyer. Come on, I'm a lawyer. You know 666 00:35:13.880 --> 00:35:16.960 what it has at the beginning of every statute and 667 00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:24.320 every contract has a definition section, and that definition section 668 00:35:24.719 --> 00:35:29.280 applies to the scope of that statute or that contract. 669 00:35:29.639 --> 00:35:31.840 So if I sign up a contract with godless here 670 00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:34.760 where he's going to sell me his car that was 671 00:35:34.800 --> 00:35:38.199 once owned by Elvis, and I'm going to pay him 672 00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:41.199 a million dollars for that car. I could at the 673 00:35:41.239 --> 00:35:45.480 beginning of the contract to say John, the owner of 674 00:35:45.599 --> 00:35:48.039 the car with the serial number x y Z that 675 00:35:48.320 --> 00:35:53.280 he is saying was once owned by Elvis parentheses car, 676 00:35:53.719 --> 00:35:57.119 or I could call it blurblop, right, But what we 677 00:35:57.199 --> 00:35:59.039 did is right at the beginning, we came to an 678 00:35:59.119 --> 00:36:03.480 understanding of what but blurblop meant or car meant. And 679 00:36:03.519 --> 00:36:06.159 then for the rest of that conversation, that is that 680 00:36:06.239 --> 00:36:09.599 contract or that statute, I'm just going to say blurblop, 681 00:36:09.960 --> 00:36:13.039 and we've come to an agreement on the idea. You 682 00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.679 shouting that the name or the label of the thing 683 00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:19.079 is important is concerning to me because I don't think 684 00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:22.159 you're genuinely interested in talking about why you believe. Because 685 00:36:22.159 --> 00:36:24.480 as soon as I asked you why you believed in 686 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:30.079 this blurblop god thing, You've went off on a name argument, 687 00:36:30.280 --> 00:36:33.559 and that, to me in the courtroom is a sign 688 00:36:33.679 --> 00:36:35.480 that you don't want to talk about what I just 689 00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:37.039 asked you. So I'm going to ask you again. I'm 690 00:36:37.039 --> 00:36:38.760 going to take you off a mute and I'm going 691 00:36:38.840 --> 00:36:44.639 to ask you, why do you believe in this Blurblopannon? 692 00:36:44.679 --> 00:36:45.519 Are you with us? 693 00:36:45.639 --> 00:36:45.880 Yep? 694 00:36:46.039 --> 00:36:46.239 Yeah? 695 00:36:46.239 --> 00:36:47.760 So why do you believe in blurblop? 696 00:36:48.280 --> 00:36:49.239 What is blur block? 697 00:36:49.920 --> 00:36:51.760 Were you not listening to everything I just said? 698 00:36:52.280 --> 00:36:57.199 I was listening to your authority of the name and 699 00:36:57.199 --> 00:36:58.760 why the name wasn't important? 700 00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:02.159 Yeah? And what did I say? John's car that was 701 00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:05.960 owned by Elvis was it was blurblop? Just like we 702 00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:11.719 could call your god. The name doesn't matter. So why 703 00:37:11.760 --> 00:37:13.079 do you believe in blurblop? 704 00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:15.480 I don't believe in blur block? 705 00:37:16.880 --> 00:37:18.920 You don't believe in an all powerful beings? 706 00:37:19.039 --> 00:37:19.440 I believe it. 707 00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:27.039 Possibly, I believe that that God. Okay, I believe God 708 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:29.639 became man, and he became pleash, and he walked the 709 00:37:29.719 --> 00:37:30.320 monks us. 710 00:37:30.519 --> 00:37:34.360 Okay, why do you believe that this god exists? That's 711 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:36.800 the question I've been asking now for five minutes. 712 00:37:37.159 --> 00:37:40.239 Why too much archeological evidence? 713 00:37:40.920 --> 00:37:41.119 Man? 714 00:37:41.159 --> 00:37:41.559 They found? 715 00:37:41.679 --> 00:37:43.559 Give us your best one they found? 716 00:37:44.320 --> 00:37:44.440 They? 717 00:37:46.039 --> 00:37:48.440 Okay, John, John, I'm gonna kick it over you. We're 718 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:51.239 gonna dress the first piece of evidence, the first piece 719 00:37:51.239 --> 00:37:53.280 of evidence we've ever been given. When I asked for 720 00:37:53.320 --> 00:37:55.639 your best was they found Noah's art. What are your 721 00:37:55.639 --> 00:37:57.079 thoughts on that? Godless? 722 00:37:57.360 --> 00:38:00.840 Yeah, No, this is a ron Wyatt aim that is 723 00:38:00.880 --> 00:38:03.920 not accurate at all. What they found was a case 724 00:38:03.920 --> 00:38:07.559 of paradolia in an area that they figured to be 725 00:38:08.000 --> 00:38:11.960 like where Mosark might have landed, and all they saw 726 00:38:12.199 --> 00:38:16.440 was a rock formation that vaguely looks like the outline 727 00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:17.519 of what they think. 728 00:38:17.320 --> 00:38:20.639 In arc or FYI, you're now talking to our audience 729 00:38:20.639 --> 00:38:22.519 because he's hung up, but please do continue. 730 00:38:23.239 --> 00:38:26.599 Yeah, so that was really interesting. I really wanted to 731 00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:27.719 interact with Gannon. 732 00:38:27.840 --> 00:38:29.159 I did well. 733 00:38:29.199 --> 00:38:31.519 I mean, he says that the enemy is Satan. 734 00:38:31.719 --> 00:38:34.119 And so the thing that I've been doing here lately 735 00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:38.519 is I've been trying to provoke an instance of cognitive 736 00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:43.360 dissonance with some people, and that's by juxtaposing what is 737 00:38:43.519 --> 00:38:46.039 part of the Satanic the tenants of the Satanic temple, 738 00:38:46.519 --> 00:38:50.440 against what God has commanded in the Bible. And so 739 00:38:50.840 --> 00:38:53.800 like I'll put up things like, Okay, tell me, is 740 00:38:53.840 --> 00:38:54.920 this God or Satan? 741 00:38:55.280 --> 00:38:55.400 Uh? 742 00:38:55.639 --> 00:38:58.239 The fact that you can sell my father can sell 743 00:38:58.280 --> 00:39:00.599 their daughter into sexual slavery, like. 744 00:39:00.880 --> 00:39:01.880 Is that God or Satan? 745 00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:04.079 And they're gonna be like Ah that they could either 746 00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:06.400 admit that it's God, or they'll say that it's Satan. 747 00:39:06.760 --> 00:39:09.719 Either way, the next question is, Okay, is this God 748 00:39:09.840 --> 00:39:12.840 or Satan that the freedoms of others should be respected? 749 00:39:13.039 --> 00:39:14.480 Is that God or Satan? 750 00:39:14.800 --> 00:39:17.280 And you know they'll be like, oh, that sounds like God. 751 00:39:17.320 --> 00:39:17.840 That's great. 752 00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:20.480 It's like, no, that's actually a tenant, but that's tenant 753 00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:24.920 number four of the Satanic temple. So no, that's actually Satan, 754 00:39:25.719 --> 00:39:29.360 the supposed enemy. And so uh, it's just it's rather 755 00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:34.079 crazy this preconceived notion they have of Satan in this respect. 756 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:35.559 Now, I'm not saying that Satan. 757 00:39:35.320 --> 00:39:38.440 Is real or anything like that, but I definitely think 758 00:39:38.480 --> 00:39:41.400 that the Bible doesn't exactly have like a Satan figure 759 00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:44.360 that is as evil as they think he is. He's 760 00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.679 just portrayed as being evil and people have just been like, yeah, 761 00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:48.480 he's fucking evil. 762 00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:54.800 Yeah. I think I too. Wanted Ghannon to stay on 763 00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:56.880 because he finally gave us a piece of evidence, and 764 00:39:56.920 --> 00:40:00.000 I gannon, if you want to call back, feel free, 765 00:40:00.000 --> 00:40:03.480 av your phone was just conveniently disconnected the moment we 766 00:40:03.519 --> 00:40:05.559 started talking about one piece of evidence you gave us. 767 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:10.360 If you're not calling back because you just were asked 768 00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:13.719 for evidence, and we're allowed to talk around that question. 769 00:40:15.039 --> 00:40:17.519 You're a coward. You're a coward. And you know what, 770 00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:20.000 I've been doing this for years, and I'm going to 771 00:40:20.079 --> 00:40:23.519 call Christians out on this. The Christians that are willing 772 00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:26.119 to call into the show and have honest conversations, I'm 773 00:40:26.119 --> 00:40:28.360 not talking to you. I've had a lot of great 774 00:40:28.440 --> 00:40:33.239 conversations with a variety of people with a variety of 775 00:40:33.280 --> 00:40:37.920 religious beliefs. The best conversations were where somebody was willing 776 00:40:38.000 --> 00:40:42.639 to answer honestly and explore down to the real point 777 00:40:42.639 --> 00:40:46.239 where we disagree. Because we don't really disagree on a lot. 778 00:40:46.320 --> 00:40:48.920 We tend to disagree down when we get down to 779 00:40:49.239 --> 00:40:53.199 good reasons to believe things. And we all have this 780 00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:56.519 little space of things that we reserve in our head 781 00:40:56.599 --> 00:40:59.880 that in order for me to stop believing this thing, 782 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.920 I'm gonna need a whole bunch of momentum. I'm gonna 783 00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:05.239 need a whole bunch of evidence, a whole bunch of talking, 784 00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:08.920 years and years of exposure to counter evidence of what 785 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.519 I previously held. It's not a just a one conversation thing, 786 00:41:12.679 --> 00:41:15.039 and it can be It can be religion for some people, 787 00:41:15.519 --> 00:41:17.800 it can be other things. I remember one of the 788 00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:20.920 best speeches I had that illustrates this was when Sam 789 00:41:21.000 --> 00:41:24.360 Harris gave a speech and he started out citing all 790 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:28.400 of the stats about how bad having fireplaces in your 791 00:41:28.400 --> 00:41:31.599 house are for your health, like the smoke increases your cancer, 792 00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:33.960 it's it's bad for children, it can give them asthma, 793 00:41:34.440 --> 00:41:37.039 all of these things, like you can lose energy up 794 00:41:37.039 --> 00:41:42.840 through it. And his conclusion was we should outlaw of fireplaces. 795 00:41:42.119 --> 00:41:43.519 And houses in the United States. 796 00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:49.199 And that feeling of like, oh God, no, I like fireplaces. 797 00:41:49.480 --> 00:41:52.320 They keep me warm, it's cheery, especially at the holidays. 798 00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.960 I'm an atheist that likes Christmas. I you know, decorated stuff. 799 00:41:56.159 --> 00:41:57.519 It comes from right. 800 00:41:57.719 --> 00:41:59.239 I mean, all of these things. But it was a 801 00:41:59.280 --> 00:42:01.440 great way to demonstrate to somebody who is a non 802 00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:04.239 believer of hey, there's something in your head that when 803 00:42:04.239 --> 00:42:08.719 you're presented with evidence, you still want to reject that evidence. 804 00:42:08.719 --> 00:42:11.239 You want to reject that feeling. And I feel like 805 00:42:12.039 --> 00:42:15.039 a lot of people will get to that space, and 806 00:42:15.119 --> 00:42:18.480 that's an interesting place to have conversations. But when you 807 00:42:18.559 --> 00:42:22.039 posture like Gannon did, when you beat your chest and 808 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:25.440 try to gain control of the conversation on a call 809 00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:29.679 in show and then run away. At the first realization 810 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:31.679 that you're not going to be able to do that, 811 00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:34.960 I'm going to call you a coward. So call back 812 00:42:35.000 --> 00:42:36.679 if you want to just man up and have the 813 00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:41.480 conversation and truly examine why you believe things, or don't 814 00:42:41.519 --> 00:42:44.159 call back one of the two, because I think our 815 00:42:44.199 --> 00:42:47.039 listeners are bored to people who just turn tail and run. 816 00:42:47.480 --> 00:42:49.719 I don't know, godless on your call in shows, have 817 00:42:49.760 --> 00:42:52.760 you had had those sorts of moments where you had 818 00:42:52.800 --> 00:42:56.719 those really long, interesting conversations with somebody who is willing 819 00:42:56.760 --> 00:42:59.800 to admit yeah, I just kind of like it or 820 00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:03.639 something like that, where they it's it's my faith, right, 821 00:43:03.800 --> 00:43:04.840 It gets down to that point. 822 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:07.719 Yeah, I mean that happens like all the time, but 823 00:43:07.880 --> 00:43:10.280 it just illuminates that they don't have like a good 824 00:43:10.360 --> 00:43:12.960 reason to believe yeah, you know, in those things. 825 00:43:12.960 --> 00:43:14.559 And for me at. 826 00:43:14.519 --> 00:43:18.320 Least, it creates this sort of instance where they start 827 00:43:18.440 --> 00:43:21.320 questioning their beliefs, like why they believe them, not necessarily 828 00:43:21.360 --> 00:43:24.760 so that they can leave their belief or anything like that. 829 00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:27.440 But the main thing that I want to do in 830 00:43:27.480 --> 00:43:31.800 all my conversations here is to provoke this sense of 831 00:43:32.639 --> 00:43:35.079 you know, questioning you know what I believe and why 832 00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:38.159 I believe it, and allowing yourself to come to your 833 00:43:38.159 --> 00:43:41.880 own conclusions without having other people dictate what those conclusions 834 00:43:41.880 --> 00:43:44.519 should be. I think that that's the biggest thing that's 835 00:43:44.599 --> 00:43:47.119 missing from a lot of you know. 836 00:43:47.159 --> 00:43:48.840 The religious community and everything. 837 00:43:48.840 --> 00:43:51.360 They're allowing people to tell them what to think instead 838 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:54.840 of using their reasonable and rational faculties in order to 839 00:43:54.880 --> 00:43:56.199 come to their own conclusions. 840 00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:58.159 Yeah, I totally agree with you. 841 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.800 My part of my concern with religion has always been 842 00:44:00.880 --> 00:44:05.719 this sort of community group think combined with the possibility 843 00:44:05.760 --> 00:44:10.199 of covering up mental illness. You know, if somebody comes 844 00:44:10.199 --> 00:44:12.039 to me and says, man, the devil has been really 845 00:44:12.039 --> 00:44:16.199 on my ass today, they might really think that there 846 00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:18.840 is a devil that's been trying to eat them or 847 00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:22.599 pursue them, or they might be using an expression, and 848 00:44:22.880 --> 00:44:25.880 either way, their church will, their church community will give 849 00:44:25.880 --> 00:44:28.639 them cover to go undiagnosed longer or things like that. 850 00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:31.599 And to be clear, I think people who say religious 851 00:44:31.599 --> 00:44:34.760 beliefs are crazy or things like that, that's not what 852 00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:36.639 I'm saying. That's not true, And I will fight you 853 00:44:36.679 --> 00:44:40.119 on that one. I'm talking about this this like I 854 00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:42.679 can't tell when somebody comes to me and says I 855 00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:45.199 had love and I went to another place and I 856 00:44:45.199 --> 00:44:47.519 didn't know where it was, and nobody around me believes me. 857 00:44:47.599 --> 00:44:49.760 I don't know if they're high right now, if they've 858 00:44:49.760 --> 00:44:52.239 got mental health issues, they genuinely believe it, or they're 859 00:44:52.239 --> 00:44:52.599 a troll. 860 00:44:52.679 --> 00:44:53.360 I just don't know. 861 00:44:54.039 --> 00:44:56.280 So when I find those people who are willing to 862 00:44:56.360 --> 00:44:58.639 actually turn that eye on themselves and question it and 863 00:44:58.679 --> 00:45:01.679 make me turn my eye myself in question my beliefs 864 00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:05.559 that I think are the great conversations, maybe our next caller, 865 00:45:06.000 --> 00:45:10.159 Mohammed from India, he him will do that. Let's see 866 00:45:10.239 --> 00:45:14.280 if I can get Mohammed on the line here. Mohammed, 867 00:45:14.760 --> 00:45:17.239 it says you want to respond to the show theme, 868 00:45:17.920 --> 00:45:21.480 God is Evil? Change our minds? So do I have 869 00:45:21.519 --> 00:45:23.039 you right? Is that what you'd like to talk about? 870 00:45:24.400 --> 00:45:27.599 Yes, we will start with that, then we will discuss 871 00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:30.400 as we move forward in Sharlah. 872 00:45:31.280 --> 00:45:35.079 Okay, so you what's your response to the show's theme, 873 00:45:35.360 --> 00:45:36.400 God is Evil? 874 00:45:36.480 --> 00:45:37.960 What's your response to that assertion? 875 00:45:40.679 --> 00:45:46.119 I think evil and good both are a relative which 876 00:45:46.199 --> 00:45:51.039 can be applied to human beings because God is beyond 877 00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:55.719 evil and good, so it is from But you are 878 00:45:56.079 --> 00:46:01.159 measuring good and evil. That is one of the reasons 879 00:46:01.840 --> 00:46:02.599 your statement. 880 00:46:03.800 --> 00:46:06.360 So Mohammed, if I can ask, can I ask a 881 00:46:06.360 --> 00:46:07.679 clarifying question real quick? 882 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:10.119 What is it? 883 00:46:10.480 --> 00:46:10.679 Yes? 884 00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:13.960 Absolutely, very discussing this, Ask whatever you want to ask. 885 00:46:14.519 --> 00:46:17.079 Okay, I don't know what it means to be beyond 886 00:46:17.159 --> 00:46:21.159 good and evil? Do you mean that God is beyond. 887 00:46:21.000 --> 00:46:26.639 Any kind of like moral either moral condemnation or any 888 00:46:26.719 --> 00:46:30.239 kind of moral analysis like is that what you mean? 889 00:46:30.360 --> 00:46:32.360 Or do you what do you mean by beyond good 890 00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:32.840 and evil? 891 00:46:34.320 --> 00:46:41.079 Okay, very good, very good question. Listen the philosophy. Because 892 00:46:41.119 --> 00:46:45.000 I am a believer, I follow Islam. So what we 893 00:46:45.119 --> 00:46:48.480 believe is that God is the one which created everything. 894 00:46:49.639 --> 00:46:54.400 So every rules in regulation is being derived from God 895 00:46:54.559 --> 00:46:58.440 itself sata. It will be very so it will be 896 00:46:58.519 --> 00:47:01.599 very logical to say to apply the same rule to 897 00:47:01.639 --> 00:47:02.639 regulation on God. 898 00:47:03.679 --> 00:47:06.639 So there's two forms of this. I want to know 899 00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:09.559 which camp you're in. One form of this is sort 900 00:47:09.599 --> 00:47:13.719 of the divine command theory, which says, if God orders 901 00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:16.159 you to do something or puts a rule in place, 902 00:47:16.320 --> 00:47:20.519 then by definition that is good. We are in no 903 00:47:20.599 --> 00:47:25.000 place to judge. So if God today told Abraham to 904 00:47:25.119 --> 00:47:28.079 kill his son and for no reason other than God 905 00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:30.960 said to do so. Then that, by definition is a 906 00:47:30.960 --> 00:47:34.880 good thing. So that's divine command theory. The other side 907 00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:37.719 of that coin or camp is, I'm not sure what 908 00:47:37.760 --> 00:47:42.840 you call this is God is in and of himself goodness, 909 00:47:42.880 --> 00:47:46.880 and therefore it is impossible for God to do anything 910 00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.840 that was not good. Like it's almost like he's constrained 911 00:47:49.920 --> 00:47:52.880 by a bigger goodness. He is the nature of goodness. 912 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.639 So there are two sides of the same coin. Is 913 00:47:55.679 --> 00:47:57.840 that what you're talking about when you talk about this. 914 00:47:58.880 --> 00:48:01.039 God is capable of everything. 915 00:48:01.679 --> 00:48:03.559 See, capable of doing something that's evil. 916 00:48:04.920 --> 00:48:08.840 I've told you that evil and good is a relative, 917 00:48:09.719 --> 00:48:10.119 So is. 918 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:12.400 It impossible for him to do something that's evil? 919 00:48:13.159 --> 00:48:15.840 These are wordplay only right now you're doing well, No, 920 00:48:15.880 --> 00:48:16.159 it's not. 921 00:48:16.599 --> 00:48:19.800 No, it's not it is true or false that God 922 00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:22.280 is it is possible for God to do something that's evil. 923 00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:28.440 If God can't do anything that's evil because evil doesn't 924 00:48:28.440 --> 00:48:30.840 apply to him, then it is impossible for God to 925 00:48:30.880 --> 00:48:33.639 do something that's evil. That would be the answer. That's 926 00:48:33.639 --> 00:48:34.760 all I'm trying to illustrate. 927 00:48:36.360 --> 00:48:39.320 No, you are just doing wordplay. 928 00:48:39.400 --> 00:48:40.440 It's not it's not. 929 00:48:40.519 --> 00:48:42.639 There is a set of things in the universe, of 930 00:48:42.719 --> 00:48:46.119 actions that could be taken that would we would define 931 00:48:46.159 --> 00:48:49.480 as evil. I'm asking, is are any of the options 932 00:48:49.519 --> 00:48:52.880 that God would take in that set? That is not wordplay, 933 00:48:53.079 --> 00:48:53.679 that's mass. 934 00:48:53.760 --> 00:48:58.639 I am saying very simple things. The things you are 935 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:04.840 defining as evil is because those things has been described 936 00:49:04.880 --> 00:49:08.719 as evil by God's command. So you cannot apply this. 937 00:49:09.119 --> 00:49:10.960 You're not answering the question. Let me ask it a 938 00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.159 different way before I turn it over to John. Can 939 00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:16.480 a rock be evil? Can a rock do something that's evil? 940 00:49:17.079 --> 00:49:19.639 It depends upon you. What what do you mean by 941 00:49:19.639 --> 00:49:21.639 a rock doing evil? And what do you mean by 942 00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:22.639 rock doing a good? 943 00:49:22.719 --> 00:49:24.559 Ded? What? This? 944 00:49:24.679 --> 00:49:26.840 My question is very simple. 945 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:29.159 It's not relative to me, unless you're telling me that 946 00:49:29.239 --> 00:49:30.760 moral morality is relative. 947 00:49:30.920 --> 00:49:32.159 I don't think that's your argument. 948 00:49:33.960 --> 00:49:37.639 Can a rock do something that's evil or even be 949 00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:39.079 evil in and of itself? 950 00:49:39.480 --> 00:49:40.960 Let me first put my claim. 951 00:49:41.079 --> 00:49:43.519 You're not answering two questions. Now you have not answered 952 00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:45.119 two questions, why should we keep. 953 00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:45.440 Talking to you? 954 00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:50.719 I think I've noticed a very simple pattern among all 955 00:49:50.760 --> 00:49:54.000 the Eightish community that you people have no arguments, and 956 00:49:54.039 --> 00:49:54.679 the only. 957 00:49:57.639 --> 00:49:59.440 We're trying to make an argument with you? 958 00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:03.519 So Like, for instance, Mohammed, if if a law were 959 00:50:03.679 --> 00:50:08.079 to somehow tell you to marry and grape a nine 960 00:50:08.159 --> 00:50:10.199 year old, would that be good or bad? 961 00:50:10.960 --> 00:50:13.079 That will be totally fine. Yes, that will be totally 962 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:16.239 good because if God is commanding that to do so, 963 00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:17.519 that is a totally fine. 964 00:50:17.320 --> 00:50:19.039 Thing, because yeah, I'm dropping him. 965 00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:23.480 That's disgusting. I mean, you're a disgusting human being. 966 00:50:23.840 --> 00:50:27.880 Zero to be three too in like no time. Holy shit, 967 00:50:28.679 --> 00:50:30.679 that would be good. Yes, it would be good. God 968 00:50:30.719 --> 00:50:34.039 tells you to rape a nine year old child, that 969 00:50:34.199 --> 00:50:36.440 is a good thing because God told you, Like, Wow, 970 00:50:36.519 --> 00:50:37.400 what the fuck. 971 00:50:37.480 --> 00:50:40.840 That's I mean, it's divine command theory illustrated the best 972 00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:44.000 way I've ever heard it. I mean, this is there 973 00:50:44.079 --> 00:50:47.320 was a call that Tracy Harris took like fifteen years 974 00:50:47.360 --> 00:50:50.559 ago on this show where she spent twenty minutes walking 975 00:50:50.599 --> 00:50:53.280 this guy and she's the faintest one where she says, 976 00:50:53.800 --> 00:50:56.239 you know, the difference between your God and mine is, 977 00:50:56.519 --> 00:50:59.960 you know, I prevent the pedophile from raping the child. 978 00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.880 Your God says, you know, go ahead and rape, but 979 00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:05.760 I'm going to punish you later. And he gets the caller. 980 00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:07.679 I think it's the same call she gets the caller 981 00:51:07.679 --> 00:51:11.280 into a corner where she talks about the victim and says, 982 00:51:11.320 --> 00:51:13.960 you know what about the little girl or the little boy, 983 00:51:14.119 --> 00:51:17.639 And the caller says, well, they had to do something 984 00:51:17.679 --> 00:51:20.159 in their life that deserves that or something like that. 985 00:51:20.239 --> 00:51:23.880 And it was like mind blowing moment in me watching this, 986 00:51:24.039 --> 00:51:27.320 Like this guy genuinely participated in the conversation for like 987 00:51:27.400 --> 00:51:30.360 thirty minutes, got to this point and it was this, 988 00:51:30.639 --> 00:51:33.880 what you just said, Mohammed is a billion times worse 989 00:51:34.239 --> 00:51:37.079 than what that guy said. You should be ashamed of yourself. 990 00:51:37.079 --> 00:51:40.440 That's like, ugh, have you ever had anything like that? 991 00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:41.960 Like that's the first time I've ever heard that so 992 00:51:42.079 --> 00:51:43.079 blatantly on the show. 993 00:51:43.320 --> 00:51:46.440 Oh no, yeah, that's why I immediately went there. I 994 00:51:46.599 --> 00:51:50.039 was here so I've got like an entire database that 995 00:51:50.440 --> 00:51:55.840 I've conscripted or constructed that has like all of these 996 00:51:55.960 --> 00:51:59.039 arguments for the Koran, and I don't know all of 997 00:51:59.039 --> 00:52:00.960 them by heart yet go through them, and I was 998 00:52:01.000 --> 00:52:02.760 trying to look for a good one that was about 999 00:52:02.800 --> 00:52:06.440 genocide and just because like I didn't want to go 1000 00:52:06.480 --> 00:52:08.360 straight to the P three d oo thing. But then 1001 00:52:08.760 --> 00:52:11.519 you know, he was he was telling oh, you know, 1002 00:52:11.840 --> 00:52:14.599 Adees don't have any arguments. It's like, oh, okay, well 1003 00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.719 maybe we don't. Let's say that we don't in this respect. 1004 00:52:17.800 --> 00:52:20.840 For for the moral argument, if God tells you to 1005 00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:24.360 do this thing that's obviously horrible, is it good? And 1006 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:27.679 him going directly to like it's itother goes one or 1007 00:52:27.679 --> 00:52:29.840 two ways. Either they immediately go to P three d 1008 00:52:29.920 --> 00:52:33.760 O apologetics or they try to make some convoluted argument 1009 00:52:33.800 --> 00:52:36.639 that she that Ayesha wasn't actually nine years old. 1010 00:52:36.920 --> 00:52:39.119 So it was gonna go one way or another. 1011 00:52:39.360 --> 00:52:42.000 And you know, him going directly for P three d 1012 00:52:42.079 --> 00:52:46.239 O apologetics seems, you know, pretty much spot on. 1013 00:52:46.559 --> 00:52:50.480 I'll give him this. He wasn't playing word games. He 1014 00:52:50.559 --> 00:52:54.360 answered the question like that's equivalent to getting a witness 1015 00:52:54.360 --> 00:52:55.440 on the stand and being like. 1016 00:52:55.440 --> 00:52:56.760 Did you shoot the victim? 1017 00:52:56.760 --> 00:52:59.960 And they go, yep, well I did, and it was fun. 1018 00:53:00.400 --> 00:53:00.679 Again. 1019 00:53:00.760 --> 00:53:02.800 I did it because I hated him, and I thought 1020 00:53:02.800 --> 00:53:04.559 about it ahead of time, and I knew it would 1021 00:53:04.599 --> 00:53:13.280 be illegal. It's like, oh my gosh, Mohammed, I sincerely 1022 00:53:13.400 --> 00:53:16.960 hope that you were a troll. I sincerely hope that 1023 00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:21.800 that was a show. I somehow think it was not, 1024 00:53:22.119 --> 00:53:24.559 and I feel very sorry for you. That you. I 1025 00:53:24.599 --> 00:53:27.159 think you're a better person. To quote what Tracy said 1026 00:53:27.199 --> 00:53:29.960 on that episode, I think you're a better person than 1027 00:53:29.960 --> 00:53:32.559 your God. I think you know that that's wrong. And 1028 00:53:32.599 --> 00:53:36.119 you have been forced and backed into a corner based 1029 00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:40.239 on a whatever caused you to want to believe in 1030 00:53:40.280 --> 00:53:44.519 this god, your society and doctor nation, your parents, the 1031 00:53:46.159 --> 00:53:49.320 consequences of not believing in your current community, whatever it 1032 00:53:49.360 --> 00:53:53.199 is that has convinced you that that's more important than 1033 00:53:53.880 --> 00:53:58.440 basic human decency. I don't think that you think that 1034 00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:02.760 that ever really be true, that it would be perfectly 1035 00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:07.239 fine for a grown man to marry and sexually assault 1036 00:54:07.320 --> 00:54:08.119 a nine year old. 1037 00:54:10.119 --> 00:54:13.280 I think that he was serious. But yeah, one can 1038 00:54:13.320 --> 00:54:14.360 have a positive outlook. 1039 00:54:14.400 --> 00:54:15.599 I guess yeah. 1040 00:54:15.679 --> 00:54:20.920 I mean I that's my funny, the self examination I 1041 00:54:20.920 --> 00:54:25.599 talk about. That's my mind trying to reconcile the cognitive 1042 00:54:25.639 --> 00:54:28.960 dissonance I have of nobody would ever say such a thing, 1043 00:54:29.159 --> 00:54:32.679 and then hearing somebody say it, my mind jumps to, well, 1044 00:54:32.719 --> 00:54:35.800 it can't be can't be real. They can't sincerely believe that, 1045 00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:39.239 could they? But you're right, that's that's me trying to 1046 00:54:39.280 --> 00:54:40.960 be optimistic about humanity. 1047 00:54:41.239 --> 00:54:45.960 So uh, yeah, before we take our next calm. I 1048 00:54:46.000 --> 00:54:49.360 do want to say everybody over there on TikTok if 1049 00:54:49.360 --> 00:54:53.320 you agree with the prompt of God being evil now, 1050 00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:55.920 we do sincerely want you to try to change our minds. 1051 00:54:55.920 --> 00:54:58.639 So request up. Use that request button down there to 1052 00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:00.880 request up and talk to if you would like to 1053 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:03.880 try to change our mind about God being evil. We 1054 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.559 you know, Abraham, God generally is what we kind of 1055 00:55:07.639 --> 00:55:09.719 like handle here. But if you have some kind of 1056 00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:12.280 like diy God that you want to prove is an evil, 1057 00:55:12.320 --> 00:55:14.199 we would love to take. 1058 00:55:14.039 --> 00:55:14.800 That challenge on. 1059 00:55:15.760 --> 00:55:18.960 Otherwise, if you're on other platforms, you can call in 1060 00:55:19.119 --> 00:55:21.199 using five to one to two nine nine one nine 1061 00:55:21.239 --> 00:55:24.679 two four two and you can interact with us. So 1062 00:55:25.079 --> 00:55:27.599 definitely get those calls in now if you think that 1063 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:29.320 you can prove that God is not evil. 1064 00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:31.599 You've got such a great voice for this. 1065 00:55:31.719 --> 00:55:35.079 I love it. Have you been told that before? No, 1066 00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:35.719 I haven't. 1067 00:55:35.760 --> 00:55:38.840 Normally people hate my voice because they. 1068 00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:40.760 People who pull victim to your argument. 1069 00:55:40.960 --> 00:55:43.599 Well they detect a little bit of that Southern twang 1070 00:55:43.840 --> 00:55:46.920 to it on occasion, and so they don't like it. 1071 00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:48.679 But yeah, no, I like the way you handle that. 1072 00:55:48.920 --> 00:55:52.000 You can also visit by the way ACA dot show 1073 00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:56.719 slash call lots of ways. I think you listening at home, 1074 00:55:56.880 --> 00:55:59.719 if you're interested in sort of exploring this space, talk 1075 00:55:59.800 --> 00:56:01.920 of out where the United States is going on from 1076 00:56:01.920 --> 00:56:05.679 this Christian nationalism perspective, or even if you're religious and 1077 00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:08.119 you're appalled by where the country's going, we'd love to 1078 00:56:08.119 --> 00:56:09.920 hear from you. I think you would do better than 1079 00:56:09.920 --> 00:56:14.400 the first three callers, which can be summarized as basically, 1080 00:56:14.800 --> 00:56:17.719 I was in a mental state equivalent to being on 1081 00:56:17.880 --> 00:56:21.039 LSD for a long time, and I think everything is 1082 00:56:21.159 --> 00:56:26.320 God or something. I think that because I heard that 1083 00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:30.440 somebody found Noah's ark, Therefore we need to call God 1084 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:32.960 some other name. And there's a conspiracy theory of trying 1085 00:56:32.960 --> 00:56:36.480 to hide it. And then finally we should as long 1086 00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:39.360 as God says it's okay, you should be able to 1087 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:42.840 sexually assault nine year olds. I think that's the bar 1088 00:56:43.159 --> 00:56:47.280 we've set so far. If you're sitting at home and 1089 00:56:47.320 --> 00:56:52.159 you're shaking your head and doing the nose, true scotsmen 1090 00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:55.280 of call in show listeners and going those people weren't 1091 00:56:55.320 --> 00:56:59.159 real arguers. Those people weren't real believers. You should call 1092 00:56:59.199 --> 00:57:01.760 in tell us you believe in why even if you 1093 00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:04.679 even you just want to chat. Uh that said, Let's 1094 00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:09.360 go to Joel in California. Uh, no pronouns given. He 1095 00:57:09.400 --> 00:57:12.159 wants to talk about what they believe and why. That's 1096 00:57:12.199 --> 00:57:16.159 the questions we ask Joel. So let's pull Joe up here. Joel, 1097 00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:19.719 what do you believe? And more importantly, why do you 1098 00:57:19.800 --> 00:57:20.199 believe it? 1099 00:57:20.599 --> 00:57:23.719 On the Sorry about that. 1100 00:57:23.119 --> 00:57:25.000 That's okay. Whoever's in the room that you had to 1101 00:57:25.000 --> 00:57:27.559 tell you were on the air, thank them for for 1102 00:57:27.639 --> 00:57:30.239 giving you space. So go ahead, what what do you 1103 00:57:30.239 --> 00:57:30.639 believe in? 1104 00:57:30.719 --> 00:57:35.559 Why I'm so excited and nervous? I'm an says I'm Christian? 1105 00:57:36.199 --> 00:57:38.719 Okay, and uh, why do. 1106 00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:42.199 I believe it? I guess gets straight to the point, Well, 1107 00:57:42.840 --> 00:57:45.960 I can see the devil? Than that? 1108 00:57:47.000 --> 00:57:49.079 Can you say you can see the devil? Do you 1109 00:57:49.119 --> 00:57:52.199 mean literally you're having your eyes or seeing things and 1110 00:57:52.239 --> 00:57:55.400 that is a figure that has light reflecting off of 1111 00:57:55.440 --> 00:57:56.280 it and it's a devil? 1112 00:57:57.119 --> 00:58:00.639 Right? Well, I'm more wouldn't say that this, you know, 1113 00:58:00.719 --> 00:58:07.519 I've had, yeah, video and photographic evidence of what I've seen, 1114 00:58:07.679 --> 00:58:10.320 you know, so this is not like you believe in 1115 00:58:10.360 --> 00:58:11.960 me or whatever. I guess you have to be me 1116 00:58:12.000 --> 00:58:15.960 at this point. But I'd like I guess unless I 1117 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:17.480 could send the pictures into you and talk to a 1118 00:58:17.599 --> 00:58:20.239 later date, I guess you can take that at my word. 1119 00:58:21.639 --> 00:58:22.119 Well I can. 1120 00:58:22.480 --> 00:58:24.119 I'll take turn it up to John. I think we 1121 00:58:24.159 --> 00:58:26.159 could agree. We can take you at your word that 1122 00:58:26.239 --> 00:58:28.000 you believe you can see the devil. I'll take you 1123 00:58:28.039 --> 00:58:31.840 at that word. Go ahead, John, Okay, yeah, But so 1124 00:58:31.960 --> 00:58:32.519 I feel like. 1125 00:58:32.519 --> 00:58:33.880 You do have a voice for radio. 1126 00:58:33.920 --> 00:58:35.719 By the way, you do have a voice for radio. 1127 00:58:35.920 --> 00:58:37.480 My mom my mom was saying, I have a face 1128 00:58:37.519 --> 00:58:39.599 for radio, or you have a voice for radio. So 1129 00:58:39.840 --> 00:58:43.039 you do have a very good voice for it. Okay, 1130 00:58:43.360 --> 00:58:43.719 thank you. 1131 00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.559 I probably have a face for radio too, so we 1132 00:58:47.719 --> 00:58:50.280 sharing no, no, you don't. 1133 00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:52.599 Uh, okay, thank you. 1134 00:58:53.880 --> 00:58:56.360 I feel like there is a bit of a preconceived 1135 00:58:56.400 --> 00:59:00.599 notion of, you know, the the devil in him being 1136 00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:04.519 evil and like a preconceived notion of like demons and 1137 00:59:04.559 --> 00:59:08.480 Satan and everything like that. So I'm just kind of curious. 1138 00:59:08.719 --> 00:59:11.360 I know that you're working off of a Christian theology 1139 00:59:11.480 --> 00:59:15.880 sort of perspective here out of your understanding of the 1140 00:59:16.079 --> 00:59:19.280 Satan in Christianity. 1141 00:59:19.119 --> 00:59:21.280 What makes him evil? Exactly? 1142 00:59:21.360 --> 00:59:23.320 Can you like point me to like any kind of 1143 00:59:23.360 --> 00:59:26.719 like chap book, chapter, verse, or any kind of theological aspect. 1144 00:59:26.840 --> 00:59:29.440 Well, we should probably clarify, because all he said is 1145 00:59:29.440 --> 00:59:32.159 you can see him, right Joel quite quickly? Do you 1146 00:59:32.360 --> 00:59:33.480 do you think Satan's evil? 1147 00:59:34.320 --> 00:59:35.239 I think he's evil. 1148 00:59:36.119 --> 00:59:39.719 Okay, So John's question stands, Then why do you think 1149 00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:41.559 he is evil? 1150 00:59:41.599 --> 00:59:42.039 We'll get to it. 1151 00:59:42.079 --> 00:59:43.840 Why do you think he exists? But why do you 1152 00:59:43.840 --> 00:59:47.039 think Satan is evil? What characteristics does he have? Well? 1153 00:59:47.079 --> 00:59:49.559 I said that. I said that in a in a 1154 00:59:49.679 --> 00:59:53.440 questionnaary sense, meaning that I was repeating you do I 1155 00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:53.639 think that? 1156 00:59:53.760 --> 00:59:53.920 Oh? 1157 00:59:53.920 --> 00:59:56.199 Okay, I think that. I think that I think that. 1158 00:59:56.280 --> 00:59:58.599 God makes all things in the good. So let's just 1159 00:59:58.639 --> 01:00:04.280 say that, right it. I think that he is in 1160 01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:07.000 charge of the space that allows us to have free will. 1161 01:00:07.559 --> 01:00:11.559 And much of our free will doesn't coincide with what. 1162 01:00:11.679 --> 01:00:16.360 God wants for us. Like I would say that like sin? 1163 01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:18.840 Can I use that word sin? Would be like missing 1164 01:00:18.840 --> 01:00:21.840 the mark? Right, well, missing the mark that God said 1165 01:00:22.519 --> 01:00:25.320 we would call sin if you would call that evil. 1166 01:00:26.119 --> 01:00:28.360 He's in charge of that space. So I'd like to 1167 01:00:28.440 --> 01:00:31.079 I'd like to define my own terms because I don't 1168 01:00:31.119 --> 01:00:33.679 want I don't want to have a loaded word like evil. 1169 01:00:33.920 --> 01:00:36.599 Yeah, yeah, No, I'm a big fan of nice, As 1170 01:00:36.599 --> 01:00:39.719 the earlier caller demonstrated, I'm a big fan of defining 1171 01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:42.000 our own terms. The terms don't matter, the concepts do. 1172 01:00:42.199 --> 01:00:45.519 So if I understand you, you believe that there is 1173 01:00:45.599 --> 01:00:49.400 this space of concepts or behavior or thoughts or activity 1174 01:00:49.840 --> 01:00:54.519 where we are not living up to God's commands slash expectations. Uh, 1175 01:00:54.599 --> 01:00:57.679 there's a shorthand for that. We'll call it sin. And 1176 01:00:57.880 --> 01:01:01.480 you said that Satan is in charge of that space? 1177 01:01:01.679 --> 01:01:05.079 Is that what you said? Could you explain that? Sure? 1178 01:01:07.519 --> 01:01:15.559 He he is that space? Really? So like he he yeah, 1179 01:01:15.599 --> 01:01:17.840 in charge of me? Yeah, I would say, And you 1180 01:01:17.920 --> 01:01:20.400 know that's a lot to do with where he's in 1181 01:01:20.519 --> 01:01:23.480 locale like this earth I think is kind of where 1182 01:01:23.480 --> 01:01:27.599 he was punished to like also in in behavior. Yeah, 1183 01:01:27.719 --> 01:01:31.599 so because I don't think God really is in space. 1184 01:01:31.639 --> 01:01:36.239 That's that's not true, right, And anything that's not that's sin. 1185 01:01:36.360 --> 01:01:38.800 If not true, anything that's okay. 1186 01:01:38.920 --> 01:01:41.960 Well, before we move on to God, I think John 1187 01:01:42.039 --> 01:01:44.360 had asked the original question, John, if you want to 1188 01:01:44.440 --> 01:01:48.320 jump on this of what characteristics? Did did Joel asked? 1189 01:01:48.400 --> 01:01:51.280 Answer that question? He's evil because he's in charge of 1190 01:01:51.400 --> 01:01:54.519 this of sin or he's he is sin? 1191 01:01:55.400 --> 01:01:55.599 Yeah? 1192 01:01:55.599 --> 01:01:59.400 Would that? Would that be accurate? Like the devil is evil? 1193 01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:03.800 He allownts to the space for free will mean that 1194 01:02:03.840 --> 01:02:06.000 we could go like if there was like a zero point, 1195 01:02:06.119 --> 01:02:08.599 you know, and then there was positive and negative, I 1196 01:02:08.639 --> 01:02:10.480 would say he would be in the negative part of 1197 01:02:10.559 --> 01:02:13.000 the dark part. You could say the part, Well, yeah, 1198 01:02:13.559 --> 01:02:13.840 I don't. 1199 01:02:14.360 --> 01:02:17.039 I feel like that's more of you just classifying him 1200 01:02:17.079 --> 01:02:20.960 as evil and not him actually doing anything that is evil. Right, 1201 01:02:21.039 --> 01:02:24.440 So is there anything that Satan actively does that makes 1202 01:02:24.480 --> 01:02:25.159 him evil? 1203 01:02:26.360 --> 01:02:31.199 Well, let's let's let's let's clarify. I'm gonna I'm gonna 1204 01:02:31.239 --> 01:02:36.239 ask that question with a Joel Everything Joel Joel hold on. No, No, 1205 01:02:36.800 --> 01:02:37.880 there's a there's cross talk. 1206 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:38.440 Sometimes. 1207 01:02:38.559 --> 01:02:40.760 I want to agree with that question, but I also 1208 01:02:40.800 --> 01:02:44.760 want to layer it above a presumption I think we're making. 1209 01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:49.360 Do you agree that things are not good or evil 1210 01:02:49.679 --> 01:02:52.960 actions are? And then assuming that yes, you agree that 1211 01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:55.960 actions are the things that are evil, then we get 1212 01:02:55.960 --> 01:02:59.960 to John's question of Okay, what actions has Satan take 1213 01:03:00.119 --> 01:03:00.760 and that are evil? 1214 01:03:02.519 --> 01:03:06.039 I'll go with you on behaviors are evil. I got 1215 01:03:06.079 --> 01:03:10.159 to say that I do think that jergies can inhabit 1216 01:03:10.480 --> 01:03:14.719 things and in that sense. I think things could be evil, 1217 01:03:15.239 --> 01:03:18.840 but it's not the things themselves. Really, it's kind of 1218 01:03:19.280 --> 01:03:22.360 our language really doesn't really work with a lot of 1219 01:03:22.360 --> 01:03:26.159 this stuff. But I'll go with you with behavior for now. 1220 01:03:26.360 --> 01:03:27.079 That that's fine. 1221 01:03:28.119 --> 01:03:31.199 Okay, So John's question stands. It is what has Satan 1222 01:03:31.320 --> 01:03:34.800 done that demonstrates he is quote unquote evil? Or what 1223 01:03:34.920 --> 01:03:36.320 things had he done that different? 1224 01:03:36.719 --> 01:03:42.639 If he defied God? Right? So he decided God he basically. 1225 01:03:42.159 --> 01:03:44.920 So not doing what God tells you to do is evil? 1226 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:49.800 Well, not doing what God told him to do, which was. 1227 01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:53.239 So some people can defy God and not be evil, 1228 01:03:53.480 --> 01:03:53.880 but that. 1229 01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:54.840 Was his fall from grace. 1230 01:03:54.920 --> 01:03:57.920 Right, we're talking about let's. 1231 01:03:57.719 --> 01:04:01.320 Get away from that story. You said he defied God. 1232 01:04:01.440 --> 01:04:03.360 That's what was. Something that he did was evil. And 1233 01:04:03.440 --> 01:04:09.280 I'm asking, okay, so anybody that defies God that would 1234 01:04:09.320 --> 01:04:12.119 be evil? Right or wrong? Is that correct? 1235 01:04:12.320 --> 01:04:12.519 Right? 1236 01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:13.079 Right or wrong? 1237 01:04:13.119 --> 01:04:16.119 Well there's someone that, Yes, there's someone that lies. 1238 01:04:16.320 --> 01:04:17.039 Are they a liar? 1239 01:04:18.480 --> 01:04:18.639 Well? 1240 01:04:18.719 --> 01:04:19.760 Let me every other time? 1241 01:04:19.800 --> 01:04:23.000 Well, that's that's what we call it, thetology, That's what I. 1242 01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:25.360 Call it, the doing to me? Right, that's what you're doing. 1243 01:04:25.440 --> 01:04:27.880 No, I'm not unless you're unless you're smuggling in the 1244 01:04:28.000 --> 01:04:31.400 argument that says, anything God tells you to do is 1245 01:04:31.440 --> 01:04:34.599 by definition good? Is that your assertion? 1246 01:04:34.719 --> 01:04:38.320 It's no, you just said to me, there's some may 1247 01:04:38.320 --> 01:04:40.800 does something that God doesn't want. Are they evil? 1248 01:04:41.280 --> 01:04:41.480 Yes? 1249 01:04:41.559 --> 01:04:44.079 If they do one bad thing, are they evil? And 1250 01:04:44.119 --> 01:04:46.639 I'm saying that's the same thing and saying if you 1251 01:04:46.719 --> 01:04:49.679 lie one time, are you a liar? It's exactly the 1252 01:04:49.679 --> 01:04:50.480 same thing, right. 1253 01:04:50.920 --> 01:04:52.239 Yeah, So answer the question. 1254 01:04:53.559 --> 01:04:56.599 So if if some may does something God one time, 1255 01:04:56.639 --> 01:04:57.360 are they evil? 1256 01:04:58.000 --> 01:04:58.199 Right? 1257 01:05:01.559 --> 01:05:02.719 They didn't evil? Sing? 1258 01:05:03.159 --> 01:05:06.039 And yeah, right, I agree with that entirely. 1259 01:05:07.199 --> 01:05:07.960 Yeah. 1260 01:05:08.000 --> 01:05:12.280 There's a guy named Ray Comfort, an Australian preacher who 1261 01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:14.159 used to do this on the street. He'd walk up 1262 01:05:14.159 --> 01:05:16.159 and say do you think you're a good person? And 1263 01:05:16.280 --> 01:05:18.440 they say yes, and then he say have you ever lied? 1264 01:05:18.559 --> 01:05:20.880 Have you ever cheated? Have you ever stolen anything? Oh? 1265 01:05:20.960 --> 01:05:23.639 So you think you're a good person, you're obviously not. 1266 01:05:24.000 --> 01:05:26.639 You need God? That was the argument. So I'm just 1267 01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:29.360 sort of turning that around on you and on Satan. 1268 01:05:29.639 --> 01:05:32.239 So Stayton, did this evil thing that you think is 1269 01:05:32.280 --> 01:05:35.639 an evil thing? Does that make him an evil person 1270 01:05:35.719 --> 01:05:38.400 or an entity? Or did he just do an evil thing? 1271 01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:46.480 He didn't evil thing and choosing evil person. So John, 1272 01:05:46.519 --> 01:05:49.920 you want to re ask your question though, No, wait, 1273 01:05:49.960 --> 01:05:52.199 wait a minute, Wait a minute, I understand. I'm not 1274 01:05:52.360 --> 01:05:54.280 I'm not as as silly. 1275 01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:54.960 As some of the callers. 1276 01:05:55.119 --> 01:05:59.159 I was just saying, you know, you're trying to you know, pinpoint, 1277 01:05:59.159 --> 01:06:01.840 it is the behavior is the evil things. So he 1278 01:06:01.880 --> 01:06:04.440 didn't evil think is the evil? And then I'm saying, well, well, 1279 01:06:04.440 --> 01:06:07.480 knowing is, so they're both can be true, right, he 1280 01:06:07.679 --> 01:06:12.000 here can be an evil thing and the evil that's true. 1281 01:06:12.039 --> 01:06:13.079 Would you agree to that? 1282 01:06:13.480 --> 01:06:15.840 I don't understand what it means for a person or 1283 01:06:15.840 --> 01:06:17.320 a thing to be evil. 1284 01:06:17.400 --> 01:06:18.320 That's the part I don't know. 1285 01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:20.199 I don't know if you understand that, Josh evil John, 1286 01:06:20.519 --> 01:06:23.360 hold on, hold on, you've been talking. Let John asked 1287 01:06:23.400 --> 01:06:25.039 the original question. I want to get back to him. 1288 01:06:25.320 --> 01:06:27.800 I don't understand what it means for a person to 1289 01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:29.719 be evil. In fact, I don't even really understand the 1290 01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:32.599 term evil. I understand moral good and moral bad. But 1291 01:06:33.280 --> 01:06:36.920 go ahead, Uh, let's let Godless finish his line. 1292 01:06:37.559 --> 01:06:37.840 Yeah. 1293 01:06:37.920 --> 01:06:40.280 So, I mean it's far like I feel like, if 1294 01:06:40.320 --> 01:06:43.840 you're proclaiming somebody to be bad or evil in this instance, 1295 01:06:44.000 --> 01:06:48.320 you're making a claim that their their general behavior is 1296 01:06:48.400 --> 01:06:52.519 to be that way to where you could generalize you know, 1297 01:06:52.599 --> 01:06:56.199 their behavior is like you know, that's what you expect 1298 01:06:56.199 --> 01:06:57.000 that of that person. 1299 01:06:57.280 --> 01:06:59.920 Right then all then all people would be evil, though, 1300 01:07:00.119 --> 01:07:02.239 I mean, you know, and all people would be good. 1301 01:07:02.679 --> 01:07:04.760 I've not met a single person hasn't done at least 1302 01:07:04.840 --> 01:07:06.119 a few good things in their life. 1303 01:07:06.840 --> 01:07:09.840 True, but there's a very good argument. And none of 1304 01:07:09.840 --> 01:07:11.840 those things were done for the sake of doing them. 1305 01:07:11.920 --> 01:07:13.960 You know, they're done for the sake of making themselves 1306 01:07:13.960 --> 01:07:15.320 still better at the very least. 1307 01:07:15.840 --> 01:07:19.559 But that's that's an iron ran philosophy. We could get 1308 01:07:19.559 --> 01:07:19.960 into that. 1309 01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:22.480 But so I don't think we should God to be good? 1310 01:07:23.079 --> 01:07:24.280 Well, well, Joe, I do. 1311 01:07:24.400 --> 01:07:27.599 I do want to try to stress test your your 1312 01:07:27.440 --> 01:07:31.599 your your criteria for some action being evil. 1313 01:07:31.800 --> 01:07:34.119 You don't have to find evil. Aren't you supposed to 1314 01:07:34.119 --> 01:07:34.639 define evil? 1315 01:07:34.639 --> 01:07:37.119 When you asked me the question, you said you have 1316 01:07:37.239 --> 01:07:39.239 to be the question, can you find evil? 1317 01:07:39.679 --> 01:07:41.719 No, none of us have defined question. But you you 1318 01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:44.920 said that he that God is naughty, So why don't 1319 01:07:44.960 --> 01:07:45.480 you define it? 1320 01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:46.360 You mean by evil? 1321 01:07:47.639 --> 01:07:49.599 Let's let's start over. You ask me the original question. 1322 01:07:49.719 --> 01:07:51.440 Let's start with that and I'll get. I'm going to 1323 01:07:51.480 --> 01:07:53.559 be as direct as I can with you. Can you 1324 01:07:53.599 --> 01:07:56.320 ask me the question and define your terms and then 1325 01:07:56.320 --> 01:07:57.000 I'll go from there. 1326 01:07:57.280 --> 01:08:00.440 I'm so sorry, that's no problem. Call No. Say you 1327 01:08:00.480 --> 01:08:04.039 want to talk about what they believe and why? And 1328 01:08:04.079 --> 01:08:06.719 I asked you, what do you want to what do 1329 01:08:06.760 --> 01:08:07.239 you believe in? 1330 01:08:07.599 --> 01:08:07.840 And you. 1331 01:08:09.840 --> 01:08:11.599 Ask me a question? God has asked me a question. 1332 01:08:12.039 --> 01:08:13.920 He said what and you want me to answer you? 1333 01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:17.279 You asserted that that Satan was evil? And he said, 1334 01:08:17.960 --> 01:08:19.680 what demonstrates that he's evil? 1335 01:08:20.319 --> 01:08:20.800 Basically? 1336 01:08:21.039 --> 01:08:23.479 No, I'm sorry. The original question was do you think 1337 01:08:23.479 --> 01:08:24.439 that Satan is evil? 1338 01:08:24.520 --> 01:08:26.079 Is that right? Do you? 1339 01:08:26.159 --> 01:08:26.359 Yeah? 1340 01:08:26.399 --> 01:08:29.640 That is evil? Okay? Now can you define your terms? 1341 01:08:30.439 --> 01:08:30.600 No? 1342 01:08:30.720 --> 01:08:31.079 I can't. 1343 01:08:31.119 --> 01:08:32.640 I don't know if John can't go ahead. 1344 01:08:32.479 --> 01:08:33.520 You cannot? You can? 1345 01:08:33.720 --> 01:08:37.319 Okay, So you just how how for. 1346 01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:42.279 The purposes of this conversation, I would define evil as 1347 01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:46.399 being something that's so tremendously bad there is no context 1348 01:08:46.560 --> 01:08:50.680 or no extenuating circumstances that can rescue the action. It 1349 01:08:50.800 --> 01:08:55.279 is considered bad, regardless of any context that could be 1350 01:08:56.039 --> 01:09:00.239 proposed as to redeem it. So it's like something it's 1351 01:09:00.239 --> 01:09:03.399 beyond the pale, something that is so horrible in action 1352 01:09:03.640 --> 01:09:05.279 like the previous caller Muhammad. 1353 01:09:06.680 --> 01:09:09.640 Fine, that's perfect, that's perfect. Now ask the question for 1354 01:09:09.680 --> 01:09:10.680 the callers. 1355 01:09:11.119 --> 01:09:15.439 Okay, what action? What action did Satan do that makes 1356 01:09:15.520 --> 01:09:16.199 him evil? 1357 01:09:17.239 --> 01:09:19.279 I thought the first question. Would you think he's evil 1358 01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:22.319 in that? In that? In that regard? Do I think 1359 01:09:22.319 --> 01:09:24.880 that Satan is evil? I would say no, And you're 1360 01:09:25.000 --> 01:09:26.840 by the way you define evil. I would say no, 1361 01:09:27.439 --> 01:09:29.159 because I could make all things good. 1362 01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:34.640 Okay, all right, So why do you believe that there 1363 01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:35.319 is a God? 1364 01:09:36.159 --> 01:09:38.159 All right? Can you define God? 1365 01:09:39.199 --> 01:09:40.680 Do you believe that there is a God? 1366 01:09:41.039 --> 01:09:42.479 Can you define God for me? 1367 01:09:42.600 --> 01:09:44.880 Do you believe that there is a supernatural being of 1368 01:09:44.920 --> 01:09:47.960 any sort that any person on this planet would reasonably 1369 01:09:48.079 --> 01:09:49.119 call God? 1370 01:09:49.520 --> 01:09:49.800 Yes? 1371 01:09:50.520 --> 01:09:53.399 Okay, Why do you believe? What do you believe in 1372 01:09:53.439 --> 01:09:56.560 that aspect? And why? Let's start with what you believe. 1373 01:09:58.039 --> 01:10:02.079 I'm a Christian, so I believe that I believe in Jesus, 1374 01:10:02.239 --> 01:10:08.079 that is our savior, and pretty much pretty much the Bible, 1375 01:10:09.000 --> 01:10:13.199 you know, as as it's written, with exception or some things, 1376 01:10:13.359 --> 01:10:17.359 for the most part of the Bible. That's why I 1377 01:10:17.399 --> 01:10:20.520 believe it. Why do I believe it? Well, I asked 1378 01:10:20.600 --> 01:10:22.319 that a long time ago. You know, it's always a 1379 01:10:22.399 --> 01:10:24.079 kind of an amateur. By the way, I've always been 1380 01:10:24.199 --> 01:10:27.279 really scared to call into yourself. You're doing great, you 1381 01:10:27.279 --> 01:10:31.399 guys are you guys are spectacular people, honestly, and I 1382 01:10:31.439 --> 01:10:33.279 really thank you for what you do because you do 1383 01:10:33.359 --> 01:10:39.760 give honest space for people to come in and explain, 1384 01:10:40.000 --> 01:10:42.119 you know, why they believe what they believe, which Christians 1385 01:10:42.119 --> 01:10:44.439 are supposed to be able to do. So thank you 1386 01:10:44.560 --> 01:10:46.399 very much for that, and I do appreciate it. 1387 01:10:47.119 --> 01:10:50.560 I appreciate that, and I do like the fact that 1388 01:10:50.600 --> 01:10:53.479 you are answering and you're thinking about your answers and 1389 01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:55.399 or willing to say, well, wait a second, we need 1390 01:10:55.439 --> 01:10:58.560 to define that first. That's a real conversation because we're 1391 01:10:58.560 --> 01:11:02.159 not here to do gotcha's or create clips. We're here 1392 01:11:02.159 --> 01:11:08.039 to have a conversation. So you're a Christian. There's variations 1393 01:11:08.079 --> 01:11:12.000 on Christianity, you know, ten thousand different sects and all that, 1394 01:11:12.039 --> 01:11:15.359 but we'll just say Christian. You believe either that work 1395 01:11:15.439 --> 01:11:17.880 surf of faith will get you into heaven and that 1396 01:11:17.960 --> 01:11:22.520 there's a God and God is related to good and 1397 01:11:22.560 --> 01:11:25.000 evil in the ways that you've talked about. Why do 1398 01:11:25.039 --> 01:11:25.600 you believe that? 1399 01:11:26.479 --> 01:11:29.479 Okay, So I asked that probably when I was in 1400 01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:31.920 my early teens. You know, if you're a real Oion, 1401 01:11:31.920 --> 01:11:34.199 you don't show me like this because it's kind of 1402 01:11:34.199 --> 01:11:35.840 hard to believe some of the stuff that is that 1403 01:11:35.960 --> 01:11:40.560 you're saying, you're claiming basically speaking to him. And it 1404 01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:44.239 wasn't until a couple of years ago that he gave 1405 01:11:44.319 --> 01:11:47.319 me the answer. Based on my lifestyle that I was living, 1406 01:11:47.640 --> 01:11:50.840 I guess the answer was to be saying, and so 1407 01:11:51.479 --> 01:11:52.199 I'm able to. 1408 01:11:53.680 --> 01:11:55.960 How did you receive this answer? I didn't quite audibly 1409 01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:57.560 hear you. What was the answer and how did you 1410 01:11:57.600 --> 01:11:58.039 receive it? 1411 01:11:58.600 --> 01:12:02.840 Well, the answer was he showed me Satan. He let 1412 01:12:02.840 --> 01:12:07.000 me see Satan. So that was his way of saying 1413 01:12:07.000 --> 01:12:10.119 that he's real, because I know that he's the opposite 1414 01:12:10.199 --> 01:12:12.880 or something, you know, And so for me from my 1415 01:12:12.920 --> 01:12:16.680 own experience, right, because you know, why do you believe it? 1416 01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:20.319 It's always a personal experience. If you had an experience 1417 01:12:20.399 --> 01:12:22.600 where though you've been on the show all this time, 1418 01:12:22.680 --> 01:12:25.960 you had an experience tonight that you thought was God, 1419 01:12:26.640 --> 01:12:28.680 and then you have to come back and explain why 1420 01:12:28.800 --> 01:12:30.840 you think that there's a God and you say, well, 1421 01:12:30.840 --> 01:12:34.039 I have this experience, Well, then they'd have at you, right, 1422 01:12:34.079 --> 01:12:36.800 they'd rep you to pieces based on that because you 1423 01:12:36.840 --> 01:12:39.600 know it's not provable or whatever. But I don't think 1424 01:12:39.640 --> 01:12:44.159 that God's something that's so much provable as a personal thing. Right, 1425 01:12:44.560 --> 01:12:47.720 that's his connectedness to everybody, just the beauty of it. 1426 01:12:48.520 --> 01:12:52.520 Go ahead, So, Joe, you say that you were you 1427 01:12:52.560 --> 01:12:55.680 had this experience with God where you were your actions 1428 01:12:55.800 --> 01:12:59.800 or how you were being was condemned by God, and 1429 01:13:00.079 --> 01:13:03.439 compare and and he showed you Satan, as I guess, 1430 01:13:03.439 --> 01:13:04.880 an embodiment of evil. 1431 01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:06.560 That's what I kind of took away from that. Am 1432 01:13:06.560 --> 01:13:07.319 I on the mark? 1433 01:13:07.359 --> 01:13:10.000 With that? You're you're on the mark and He's not 1434 01:13:10.560 --> 01:13:13.840 what you'd expect at all. 1435 01:13:13.840 --> 01:13:15.760 I'm gonna I'm going to go back to that other question. 1436 01:13:15.800 --> 01:13:17.319 I think that's right. John. We asked you at the 1437 01:13:17.359 --> 01:13:20.680 top of the show, just to clarify. Do you visually 1438 01:13:20.720 --> 01:13:22.760 see him like you'd see a cup of water in 1439 01:13:22.760 --> 01:13:24.840 front of you or a person standing on the corner 1440 01:13:24.960 --> 01:13:27.760 or are we talking about other some other meaning of 1441 01:13:27.800 --> 01:13:30.199 the words not at all. 1442 01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:36.000 Great question. It's very hard to explain because I've never 1443 01:13:36.079 --> 01:13:38.079 experienced it before and there's not a lot to compare 1444 01:13:38.119 --> 01:13:40.680 it to. Right, So I'm going to do my best. 1445 01:13:41.039 --> 01:13:44.680 But it's more if I would say, you know, it's 1446 01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:48.039 almost like another realm. Right, it's really hard to explain 1447 01:13:48.199 --> 01:13:52.479 that the stuff that you're wanting to you're wanting to 1448 01:13:53.319 --> 01:13:55.920 me to answer for like a cup of water, it's 1449 01:13:55.960 --> 01:14:00.680 an object. Definitely not that. Definitely not a thing, right, 1450 01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:05.399 Definitely not a thing. If you know thing, definitely not right. 1451 01:14:07.079 --> 01:14:13.000 He's like the spirit and spirit. It's crazy. 1452 01:14:13.479 --> 01:14:16.920 Okay, I'm gonna list off the five hold on, hold on, 1453 01:14:17.439 --> 01:14:20.520 we're gonna We're gonna jump in real quickly. I'm gonna 1454 01:14:20.520 --> 01:14:24.319 list off the five senses that human beings have. These 1455 01:14:24.319 --> 01:14:27.800 are methods that we have to detecting things around us, 1456 01:14:28.039 --> 01:14:30.720 the only way we know to do this. We have sight, 1457 01:14:31.359 --> 01:14:33.840 we have hearing, we have taste, we have smell, and 1458 01:14:33.840 --> 01:14:36.640 we have touch. I'm gonna ask you for in a 1459 01:14:36.760 --> 01:14:40.000 g loop. Can I can I see Satan? Can I 1460 01:14:40.079 --> 01:14:42.680 hear Satan? Can I taste Satan? Can I smell touch Satan? 1461 01:14:42.720 --> 01:14:45.880 Can I touch Satan? If I'm in your your place, 1462 01:14:46.119 --> 01:14:49.000 are any of those applicable? Or are you detecting Satan 1463 01:14:49.039 --> 01:14:51.720 through some other means other than those five senses? 1464 01:14:52.159 --> 01:14:55.720 I would say site is the closest, the closest one that. 1465 01:14:55.880 --> 01:14:58.520 I would say, it's close, but it's not the same 1466 01:14:58.560 --> 01:15:00.439 because you wouldn't see it like a see a guy 1467 01:15:00.479 --> 01:15:02.680 on the corner or you see my mother. 1468 01:15:03.159 --> 01:15:05.920 It's not a thing. It's not a thing. 1469 01:15:06.000 --> 01:15:09.079 So do you use your eyes when you see Satan? 1470 01:15:09.159 --> 01:15:10.840 Are you seeing it some other webs? 1471 01:15:11.359 --> 01:15:14.319 I can close my eyes and seam. 1472 01:15:14.520 --> 01:15:15.680 Isn't that a warning sign? 1473 01:15:16.079 --> 01:15:18.560 I can close my eyes and Sam I can open. 1474 01:15:18.840 --> 01:15:20.039 Isn't that a warning sign? 1475 01:15:20.399 --> 01:15:21.199 A warning sign of what? 1476 01:15:22.199 --> 01:15:22.760 What do you think? 1477 01:15:22.880 --> 01:15:24.920 What would you say to anybody else who came to 1478 01:15:24.960 --> 01:15:27.720 you and said you should believe that this exists because 1479 01:15:27.720 --> 01:15:29.640 when I close my eyes, I see it. 1480 01:15:29.680 --> 01:15:31.520 I didn't say that. I didn't say that. 1481 01:15:32.279 --> 01:15:34.520 I not asked the saying that you did. I would say, 1482 01:15:34.520 --> 01:15:36.680 what would you say to somebody who said that? 1483 01:15:37.399 --> 01:15:41.319 I would say that you should check yourself, because number one, 1484 01:15:41.359 --> 01:15:43.439 you might be seeing things that are not there, and 1485 01:15:43.560 --> 01:15:46.640 number two, you shouldn't ask anybody to believe things based 1486 01:15:46.640 --> 01:15:47.560 on your experience. 1487 01:15:48.640 --> 01:15:50.359 I agree with that, and you haven't asked us to 1488 01:15:50.399 --> 01:15:51.840 do that, And I'm not accusing you of that. I 1489 01:15:51.880 --> 01:15:53.720 just wanted to get to you where you were there 1490 01:15:53.800 --> 01:15:57.239 so you can put yourself in our shoes. Godless, I 1491 01:15:57.279 --> 01:15:59.159 think I don't want to speak for you, but when 1492 01:15:59.199 --> 01:16:01.920 I hear I can see him when I close my eyes, 1493 01:16:01.960 --> 01:16:03.600 that to me sort of raises red flags. 1494 01:16:03.640 --> 01:16:04.760 What do you think, Godless? 1495 01:16:05.479 --> 01:16:07.960 Yeah, I mean it does definitely raise a bit bit 1496 01:16:08.000 --> 01:16:11.039 of red flags, because I mean I take it to 1497 01:16:11.159 --> 01:16:14.760 mean that you are actively being fed a vision of 1498 01:16:14.840 --> 01:16:18.880 Him is as opposed to just remembering like some kind 1499 01:16:18.920 --> 01:16:22.000 of dream or other state that you were you were in. 1500 01:16:22.199 --> 01:16:22.880 Is that correct? 1501 01:16:23.800 --> 01:16:27.479 That's correct? And I wouldn't say that, I mean said 1502 01:16:28.000 --> 01:16:30.760 in the sense that I mean, yeah, said is fine. 1503 01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:34.119 But I feel like I agreed to this before I 1504 01:16:34.159 --> 01:16:36.920 was born, right, But I guess it doesn't really matter. 1505 01:16:37.119 --> 01:16:39.119 So said city is fine? 1506 01:16:39.600 --> 01:16:39.840 Fine? 1507 01:16:40.560 --> 01:16:43.640 Okay, So that's that's fine. Now. 1508 01:16:44.079 --> 01:16:46.199 The thing that I was kind of wanting to harp 1509 01:16:46.279 --> 01:16:50.359 on here is the whole idea of you being shown 1510 01:16:50.479 --> 01:16:54.039 Satan and being shown something that's opposite to God, which 1511 01:16:54.079 --> 01:16:56.600 is uh, and correct me if I'm wrong on any 1512 01:16:56.640 --> 01:16:59.560 of this. I'm trying to steal man your position on it. 1513 01:16:59.600 --> 01:17:04.920 You were own a vision of Satan so that you know, 1514 01:17:05.520 --> 01:17:08.319 God could show you, oh you know this is this 1515 01:17:08.359 --> 01:17:10.159 is the evil this is the opposite of me. 1516 01:17:11.079 --> 01:17:13.239 Am I am I on am I on the right path. 1517 01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:16.600 I think that's why. I just know that I can 1518 01:17:16.640 --> 01:17:19.760 see him. I don't can answer Anthony, I don't know right, 1519 01:17:19.960 --> 01:17:22.800 I just know that I can see him, and I 1520 01:17:22.079 --> 01:17:26.680 guess and seeing him meaning that this. I just want 1521 01:17:26.720 --> 01:17:28.680 to add one more thing to this about my experience 1522 01:17:28.720 --> 01:17:31.399 about it. I can see him. I can ask him 1523 01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:34.600 any question I want, right, and I can He will 1524 01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:35.439 answer right. 1525 01:17:35.520 --> 01:17:37.720 Doesn't do you ask him vocally? 1526 01:17:38.199 --> 01:17:40.680 I this was the mind blowing part when I realized 1527 01:17:40.720 --> 01:17:42.000 that you can. 1528 01:17:42.600 --> 01:17:44.439 I can ask him in my mind about talking and 1529 01:17:44.520 --> 01:17:44.880 oh I. 1530 01:17:44.800 --> 01:17:47.199 Don't answer me in the same way, and just on 1531 01:17:47.439 --> 01:17:48.960 Q just. 1532 01:17:48.640 --> 01:17:50.760 Just I think that should be mind blowing because that's 1533 01:17:51.279 --> 01:17:52.399 very abnormal, isn't it. 1534 01:17:53.319 --> 01:17:55.199 It is? It is extremely abnormal. 1535 01:17:56.079 --> 01:17:58.880 Can I propose a well, Joel, can I propose a 1536 01:17:59.560 --> 01:18:02.760 hypothe article for you? And you tell me if this 1537 01:18:02.880 --> 01:18:08.800 is satan activity like evil activity, or if it's holly 1538 01:18:08.840 --> 01:18:12.000 good activity. Can we can we run this exercise real quick? 1539 01:18:12.319 --> 01:18:13.840 Yeah? I'll try. 1540 01:18:14.399 --> 01:18:17.880 Okay, all right, So, uh, let's say that you're a 1541 01:18:18.640 --> 01:18:21.640 you're a soldier in the US Army or or any 1542 01:18:21.760 --> 01:18:24.680 any army out there. Let's say you're a soldier and 1543 01:18:24.720 --> 01:18:28.840 you're in a foreign country and uh, you you go 1544 01:18:29.000 --> 01:18:33.520 into a city and you utterly destroy it. You unlive 1545 01:18:33.680 --> 01:18:34.840 everybody in the city. 1546 01:18:35.319 --> 01:18:35.439 Uh. 1547 01:18:35.800 --> 01:18:42.279 But amongst those inhabitants that you haven't unalived, you notice 1548 01:18:42.279 --> 01:18:45.880 a beautiful woman. And so you decide that you're gonna 1549 01:18:45.880 --> 01:18:49.239 forcefully take that beautiful woman, and you're gonna bring her 1550 01:18:49.279 --> 01:18:51.920 back home, and you're gonna you're gonna keep her in 1551 01:18:51.960 --> 01:18:54.880 your house for a month, and and at that point 1552 01:18:54.920 --> 01:18:58.359 you're then going to marry her, whether. 1553 01:18:58.119 --> 01:19:01.439 She wants you to or not. Now, would you consider 1554 01:19:01.479 --> 01:19:03.600 that to be godly things? 1555 01:19:03.640 --> 01:19:03.720 Like? 1556 01:19:03.840 --> 01:19:06.039 Is that something that God would command or is that 1557 01:19:06.159 --> 01:19:08.680 something that you you think would be inspired by Satan? 1558 01:19:09.399 --> 01:19:12.960 I would think that that's a thing that has probably 1559 01:19:12.960 --> 01:19:15.479 written in a Bible in some way. And I think 1560 01:19:15.520 --> 01:19:17.479 that if I were to do it in these days, 1561 01:19:17.520 --> 01:19:19.640 that it would be from Satan. 1562 01:19:20.600 --> 01:19:22.760 I want to key in on a phrase you just said. 1563 01:19:22.800 --> 01:19:24.319 Did you just say if I were to do it 1564 01:19:24.560 --> 01:19:25.319 these days? 1565 01:19:25.800 --> 01:19:27.840 Yeah, if I were to do it these days, like 1566 01:19:28.039 --> 01:19:28.399 you know. 1567 01:19:28.960 --> 01:19:31.119 If you had done it two thousand years ago, would 1568 01:19:31.159 --> 01:19:32.079 it be morally Okay? 1569 01:19:32.439 --> 01:19:34.680 Well, that's a that's a hard question. 1570 01:19:35.439 --> 01:19:38.640 No, it's not, but go ahead, go pull that thread. 1571 01:19:38.720 --> 01:19:42.479 Oh well, I think you're using it the time, the 1572 01:19:42.520 --> 01:19:45.199 times that we're in now to judge other times. 1573 01:19:45.399 --> 01:19:49.359 So morality is relative to the time you're in. The 1574 01:19:49.359 --> 01:19:52.720 things that work. That are some things that are bad 1575 01:19:52.840 --> 01:19:56.880 now We're okay, just because years. 1576 01:19:57.840 --> 01:20:01.359 What well, things that are done now will be considered 1577 01:20:02.119 --> 01:20:04.560 archaic a thousand years from now, right. 1578 01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:06.880 Some won't, some won't. 1579 01:20:07.119 --> 01:20:08.119 Right, and some will. 1580 01:20:08.239 --> 01:20:11.000 We already we have already learned as what species, what 1581 01:20:11.079 --> 01:20:13.439 kind of hold on? Hold on, Joel, We've given you 1582 01:20:13.479 --> 01:20:14.159 a lot. 1583 01:20:13.920 --> 01:20:16.079 Of room, let me go. 1584 01:20:17.159 --> 01:20:18.439 So it's a fair question. 1585 01:20:19.439 --> 01:20:21.319 It is a fair question because I'm going to propose 1586 01:20:21.920 --> 01:20:24.479 an answer here, so let me get to it. Right. 1587 01:20:25.000 --> 01:20:27.720 So I agree with you that some of the things 1588 01:20:27.760 --> 01:20:30.319 we do now will probably be viewed as immoral in 1589 01:20:30.359 --> 01:20:33.960 the future. And I hope you agree with me that 1590 01:20:34.000 --> 01:20:36.199 some things that were done two thousand years ago or 1591 01:20:36.359 --> 01:20:39.079 five thousand years ago when we had the Old Testament 1592 01:20:39.680 --> 01:20:42.960 were immoral then and immoral now, and we are considering 1593 01:20:42.960 --> 01:20:47.319 them immoral now. There's multiple explanations for why that's true, 1594 01:20:47.319 --> 01:20:50.800 and multiple definitional things that explain that. And that's where 1595 01:20:50.840 --> 01:20:52.520 the conversation is, so I'm not trying to shut you 1596 01:20:52.560 --> 01:20:54.800 off and just trying to get to that point. Either 1597 01:20:56.239 --> 01:20:59.720 things are moral or immoral, and we as a species 1598 01:21:00.159 --> 01:21:03.720 learn about morality as we grow up as human beings 1599 01:21:03.760 --> 01:21:07.000 and more and more things we recognize as bad or good, 1600 01:21:07.399 --> 01:21:12.680 so our view gets more nuanced and subtle and advances. 1601 01:21:12.840 --> 01:21:19.399 Or we're just creatures of fashion. Whatever is fashionably okay 1602 01:21:19.439 --> 01:21:21.880 to murder, then it's okay to murder. And it is 1603 01:21:21.880 --> 01:21:24.479 not just we think it's okay to murder, it is 1604 01:21:24.640 --> 01:21:27.560 actually okay to murder. If many people think that it's okay, 1605 01:21:28.119 --> 01:21:31.239 I'm arguing that it's the former that it was always 1606 01:21:31.279 --> 01:21:34.199 wrong morally, no matter if people. It's kind of like 1607 01:21:34.239 --> 01:21:37.840 saying everybody used to believe the Earth was flat, therefore 1608 01:21:37.920 --> 01:21:40.319 the Earth was flat. That's not my argument. My argument 1609 01:21:40.439 --> 01:21:42.800 is everybody used to think that the Earth was flat. 1610 01:21:42.960 --> 01:21:45.039 I'm going to mute you, Joel, if you won't let 1611 01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:48.640 me finish this explanation. You've been a great caller. Just 1612 01:21:48.720 --> 01:21:51.039 listen to me. Okay, this is a great analogy that 1613 01:21:51.159 --> 01:21:53.640 just wrung in my head. Everybody used to think the 1614 01:21:53.680 --> 01:21:56.560 Earth was flat. Does that mean that the Earth was flat? 1615 01:21:56.680 --> 01:21:59.479 Or does that mean everybody was wrong? Everybody is wrong. 1616 01:22:00.039 --> 01:22:04.720 Everybody used to think that slavery and raping women was okay. 1617 01:22:05.520 --> 01:22:07.279 Does that mean that it was okay? Or does it 1618 01:22:07.319 --> 01:22:10.880 mean that everybody was wrong? Do you get my point? 1619 01:22:11.199 --> 01:22:12.000 I do I get you? 1620 01:22:12.239 --> 01:22:12.640 Okay? 1621 01:22:12.920 --> 01:22:18.800 So Godless's question you sort of caught onto it of 1622 01:22:19.399 --> 01:22:21.600 Is that more satan like or is that more god like? 1623 01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:23.279 You said, I bet that's something that was. 1624 01:22:23.279 --> 01:22:26.399 Written in the Bible that if I did it nowadays 1625 01:22:26.439 --> 01:22:29.359 would be wrong. Would you like to amend that? Would 1626 01:22:29.399 --> 01:22:31.159 it have been wrong two thousand years ago if you 1627 01:22:31.159 --> 01:22:31.439 did it? 1628 01:22:32.119 --> 01:22:32.920 No, I don't. 1629 01:22:32.920 --> 01:22:33.840 I don't want to amend that. 1630 01:22:34.680 --> 01:22:38.439 So it would have been morally okay to take a 1631 01:22:38.479 --> 01:22:41.479 prisoner of war and sexually assault her and force her 1632 01:22:41.479 --> 01:22:42.760 into America against her will. 1633 01:22:43.079 --> 01:22:47.279 No, I don't think that that's okay. That's that's obviously 1634 01:22:47.319 --> 01:22:49.399 the answer that that's only going to be excited. 1635 01:22:49.479 --> 01:22:52.399 So that would have been moral immoral two thousand years 1636 01:22:52.439 --> 01:22:53.680 ago as well? Correct? 1637 01:22:54.039 --> 01:22:56.119 That would have been immoral two thousand years ago? 1638 01:22:56.199 --> 01:22:59.039 Yes, okay, go ahead, John, Sorry, Well, I was just 1639 01:22:59.079 --> 01:23:03.880 gonna ask because that is something that God commanded. 1640 01:23:03.880 --> 01:23:08.279 Deuteronomy twenty one, twenty one ten to fourteen. That's part 1641 01:23:08.319 --> 01:23:12.199 of God's commandments, that is to guide them. And it's 1642 01:23:12.239 --> 01:23:15.640 the same commandments that's affirmed by Jesus in Matthew five 1643 01:23:16.079 --> 01:23:19.239 seventeen to nineteen, for which there is a repetitive thing 1644 01:23:19.680 --> 01:23:20.560 in Luke as well. 1645 01:23:20.600 --> 01:23:22.399 So it's done twice in the gospels. 1646 01:23:22.560 --> 01:23:26.760 That reaffirms these Old Testament laws that are given by 1647 01:23:26.880 --> 01:23:30.840 God to Moses, as was the other people in there. 1648 01:23:31.880 --> 01:23:35.920 And so given that God is the one that issued these, 1649 01:23:36.159 --> 01:23:39.439 that's the mark that God. Playing back on to the 1650 01:23:39.439 --> 01:23:42.640 beginning of our conversation, that's the mark that God has 1651 01:23:42.760 --> 01:23:48.520 set right. So by not doing that in war that 1652 01:23:48.600 --> 01:23:51.159 God has commanded, this is the behavior that God has 1653 01:23:51.199 --> 01:23:55.239 commanded has allowed you to do. So by not doing 1654 01:23:55.279 --> 01:23:58.800 that in war, it seems to me like you would 1655 01:23:58.880 --> 01:24:01.399 have to say that your committee an evil action by 1656 01:24:01.600 --> 01:24:04.520 not adhering to that mark that God has given. 1657 01:24:04.720 --> 01:24:05.720 Would that be correct? 1658 01:24:07.039 --> 01:24:09.479 No, that wouldn't be correct. That wouldn't be cursed at all. 1659 01:24:09.600 --> 01:24:13.960 Because this is a problem with taking one era and 1660 01:24:14.359 --> 01:24:17.000 and moving it and applying it to another era. 1661 01:24:17.680 --> 01:24:19.880 Is God constrained by cultural norms? 1662 01:24:20.279 --> 01:24:21.479 Do I have any time to talk? 1663 01:24:22.640 --> 01:24:27.000 Have given you so much time to talk. We have 1664 01:24:27.119 --> 01:24:29.479 given you so, we gave you compliments on how great 1665 01:24:29.520 --> 01:24:33.119 you were, We've given you time to talk. This is 1666 01:24:33.159 --> 01:24:35.319 a back and forth and if you say something when 1667 01:24:35.359 --> 01:24:38.000 we need clarifications, we as the hosts, are going to 1668 01:24:38.079 --> 01:24:40.640 ask for clarifications. So please answer John's question. 1669 01:24:41.199 --> 01:24:44.279 Well, yeah, Joe, So just just to give you a 1670 01:24:44.319 --> 01:24:48.199 little bit more information, I'll give you your time to to 1671 01:24:48.319 --> 01:24:51.960 respond to this, and I promise you. But see what 1672 01:24:52.039 --> 01:24:54.840 it's coming across to me is you're saying that God 1673 01:24:55.079 --> 01:25:00.479 either changes or God is compressed or constrained. Sorry, God 1674 01:25:00.560 --> 01:25:03.800 is constrained by the culture that he is talking to. 1675 01:25:03.960 --> 01:25:07.279 So like he like his commands are not meant for 1676 01:25:07.359 --> 01:25:10.000 all the time, which is actually contradictory to what the 1677 01:25:10.000 --> 01:25:12.399 Bible says, because the Bible says that God's law is 1678 01:25:12.399 --> 01:25:16.479 a perfect law meant for forever. Uh that's somewhere in Psalms. 1679 01:25:17.920 --> 01:25:21.239 But God says that, right, And so it seems to 1680 01:25:21.279 --> 01:25:24.239 me like what you're saying is that God is constrained 1681 01:25:24.600 --> 01:25:27.600 by the culture that he is either speaking to or 1682 01:25:27.640 --> 01:25:29.960 the culture that exists at the time. That seems to 1683 01:25:30.000 --> 01:25:33.880 be a violation of his omnipotence. Is all powerful nature 1684 01:25:34.239 --> 01:25:36.880 and if God is constrained by that, then it seems 1685 01:25:36.920 --> 01:25:41.520 like God is somehow driven by human need at least 1686 01:25:41.560 --> 01:25:42.239 the laws. 1687 01:25:42.000 --> 01:25:46.000 Of God, because God because are really good. No, No, 1688 01:25:46.079 --> 01:25:50.800 God's not constrained at all. We're limited. We're limited on 1689 01:25:50.960 --> 01:25:54.000 what we can and what God can apply to us 1690 01:25:54.039 --> 01:25:57.640 at any given time, and we grow hopefully. But I 1691 01:25:57.680 --> 01:26:00.039 got to say, going back to what you say that 1692 01:26:00.159 --> 01:26:02.920 you guys give these two options. And I was saying or, 1693 01:26:03.680 --> 01:26:04.880 and you kept going. 1694 01:26:05.199 --> 01:26:07.840 And you said you give us the third option. 1695 01:26:08.399 --> 01:26:12.319 Well, in this example way, we get worse. We don't 1696 01:26:12.319 --> 01:26:12.800 get better. 1697 01:26:12.880 --> 01:26:17.199 We don't absolutely we might get worse. Are you So 1698 01:26:17.279 --> 01:26:18.560 that begs the question. 1699 01:26:18.359 --> 01:26:21.560 I want to I want that to be one example. Okay, 1700 01:26:21.680 --> 01:26:25.119 an Joel, you don't get offended, Joel. 1701 01:26:25.119 --> 01:26:28.960 I'm not offended. I'm following up. I just agreed with you. 1702 01:26:28.960 --> 01:26:31.960 You're right, we could get worse. We could move into 1703 01:26:32.000 --> 01:26:35.880 the future, learn more about morality, learn more about suffering, 1704 01:26:35.920 --> 01:26:39.159 and realize, you know what, it's great to rate people 1705 01:26:39.199 --> 01:26:42.760 it is morally Okay, we could get worse. Right, No, 1706 01:26:43.159 --> 01:26:46.960 I'm supporting you. I am saying we could do that 1707 01:26:47.159 --> 01:26:52.399 right as a people. Right, So do you agree that 1708 01:26:52.479 --> 01:26:56.159 what we think at any given time is not directly 1709 01:26:56.239 --> 01:27:02.359 related to some constant truth. Do you agree that what 1710 01:27:02.399 --> 01:27:05.199 we think about the Earth being round or flat does 1711 01:27:05.199 --> 01:27:07.479 not affect whether or not the Earth is round or flat? 1712 01:27:07.520 --> 01:27:08.159 That's my question. 1713 01:27:08.720 --> 01:27:09.560 I think that's true. 1714 01:27:09.600 --> 01:27:12.920 Yeah, okay, So what we think about morality today, you 1715 01:27:12.960 --> 01:27:15.600 are arguing, and I would agree with you, does not 1716 01:27:15.960 --> 01:27:19.199 necessarily have any effect on as to whether or not 1717 01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:22.199 something is actually good or bad, or whether or not 1718 01:27:22.520 --> 01:27:25.119 there's even an actual objective good or bad at all 1719 01:27:25.119 --> 01:27:27.960 in the universe. Right, what we think about it is irrelevant, right. 1720 01:27:30.000 --> 01:27:32.760 Yes, I was okay to say, I would say that's true. 1721 01:27:33.039 --> 01:27:34.199 I would. Yeah. 1722 01:27:34.279 --> 01:27:36.840 Then how can you know anything about the nature of 1723 01:27:36.880 --> 01:27:38.760 God or Satan and goodness and evil? 1724 01:27:39.159 --> 01:27:41.680 And how could any one person know? 1725 01:27:42.600 --> 01:27:43.239 That's my question? 1726 01:27:43.600 --> 01:27:49.720 Yeah, yeah, okay, Well I believe that I believe that, 1727 01:27:50.079 --> 01:27:55.399 you know, he I believe that He put it into 1728 01:27:55.560 --> 01:27:57.000 our hearts pretty much, you know. 1729 01:27:57.399 --> 01:27:59.119 And but couldn't it be Satan deceiving? 1730 01:27:59.159 --> 01:28:02.560 You be sinding deceiving? Yeah, it could be. I think 1731 01:28:02.600 --> 01:28:04.520 he at text more of than mind, you know. But 1732 01:28:04.840 --> 01:28:08.680 being when spending time with Jesus is like no anyone right, So, like, 1733 01:28:09.479 --> 01:28:12.920 you know, God says to put him first, right, and 1734 01:28:13.000 --> 01:28:16.079 like pretty much like that's it, you know, like that's it. 1735 01:28:16.520 --> 01:28:20.680 And I don't who said to put him first any. 1736 01:28:19.680 --> 01:28:22.000 I think I think the Bible says to put God first. 1737 01:28:22.239 --> 01:28:24.079 And how do you know that that is true? 1738 01:28:24.560 --> 01:28:26.119 How do I know that that is true, that it 1739 01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:27.880 said it, or how I know that it's true that 1740 01:28:27.920 --> 01:28:29.840 he wants it, or how do I know that it's true? 1741 01:28:30.039 --> 01:28:32.520 So you're saying I believe if I want to paraphrase, 1742 01:28:32.520 --> 01:28:32.960 I don't want to. 1743 01:28:32.920 --> 01:28:33.600 Put words in your mouth. 1744 01:28:33.640 --> 01:28:34.479 It's definitely true. 1745 01:28:35.439 --> 01:28:37.840 That's so true. So let's back up to that. Let's 1746 01:28:37.880 --> 01:28:39.800 get to the final question of the show, like the 1747 01:28:40.119 --> 01:28:43.520 big question, which is why do you believe there's a God? 1748 01:28:44.159 --> 01:28:46.319 Well, because I've seen Satan. 1749 01:28:46.800 --> 01:28:49.880 Okay, so that would lead me to believe in Satan, right, 1750 01:28:50.119 --> 01:28:51.720 not necessarily God? 1751 01:28:52.159 --> 01:28:56.720 Yeah, well not me because like that meant fipping to me, right, 1752 01:28:56.800 --> 01:28:58.960 This is this goes back to the personal experience He 1753 01:28:59.079 --> 01:29:02.560 showed me, right, showing you would mean so enough, Like 1754 01:29:02.600 --> 01:29:05.159 if I were to ask you the question, if I 1755 01:29:05.199 --> 01:29:08.119 were to ask you a question, what would be evidence 1756 01:29:08.159 --> 01:29:08.600 for God? 1757 01:29:08.680 --> 01:29:09.960 For you? 1758 01:29:09.960 --> 01:29:13.279 You probably wouldn't answer that. What would be with evidence 1759 01:29:13.319 --> 01:29:16.680 for you? Sure? Answer that. Please tell everybody, tell the world. 1760 01:29:16.720 --> 01:29:19.520 What would be evidence to you if there's a God. 1761 01:29:20.560 --> 01:29:23.920 Well, if we're assuming the Christian God, the evidence would 1762 01:29:23.920 --> 01:29:29.479 be probably I don't know, because God is so mysterious. 1763 01:29:29.560 --> 01:29:32.760 No one can know God's ways, but God would know, 1764 01:29:33.399 --> 01:29:36.600 so he would give me that evidence. Whatever that was. 1765 01:29:36.720 --> 01:29:40.479 God would be powerful enough if he wanted to the 1766 01:29:40.600 --> 01:29:43.920 question to me, it's an honest answer. Are you going 1767 01:29:44.000 --> 01:29:46.680 to say I'm lying like I really don't know. I 1768 01:29:46.720 --> 01:29:50.560 don't know. Give me a scenario. Give me a scenario 1769 01:29:51.119 --> 01:29:53.960 where you think I should take that evidence as proof 1770 01:29:54.000 --> 01:29:56.920 of not only a God, but the Christian God of 1771 01:29:56.920 --> 01:29:57.359 the Bible. 1772 01:29:57.880 --> 01:29:59.600 That's not evidence for that. 1773 01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:02.159 I asked you a question. Could you please give me 1774 01:30:02.199 --> 01:30:06.479 a scenario that you think I should accept as evidence 1775 01:30:06.600 --> 01:30:08.399 that the God of the Bible is true? 1776 01:30:09.119 --> 01:30:11.600 No, no, I couldn't because you can't even give me 1777 01:30:12.039 --> 01:30:18.079 a scenariosing me of lying. Oh, you're excusing me of lying. 1778 01:30:18.479 --> 01:30:20.960 Wait a minute, I'm going to meet. 1779 01:30:20.840 --> 01:30:23.439 You and explain this, because you like reacting more than 1780 01:30:23.479 --> 01:30:25.680 you like answering. At this point, you're accusing me of 1781 01:30:25.760 --> 01:30:29.079 lying when I honestly say I don't know. What would 1782 01:30:29.159 --> 01:30:31.560 convince me that there's a God. I've thought about this 1783 01:30:31.640 --> 01:30:34.560 a lot. I've thought about this for thirty years. I've 1784 01:30:34.600 --> 01:30:38.039 had that conversation what would convince you dozens if not 1785 01:30:38.159 --> 01:30:41.840 hundreds of times. And the honest answer is, I don't know. 1786 01:30:42.640 --> 01:30:44.439 But I'm not the one claiming there's a God or 1787 01:30:44.479 --> 01:30:48.279 there's not a God. Other people tell me things, and 1788 01:30:48.520 --> 01:30:51.279 I am convinced or not convinced of their claims based 1789 01:30:51.319 --> 01:30:54.319 on the evidence they present. To date, I haven't been 1790 01:30:54.399 --> 01:30:58.359 convinced that there's a God. I haven't had any experiences 1791 01:30:58.399 --> 01:31:00.319 that people who call in and say I had this 1792 01:31:00.359 --> 01:31:02.600 personal experience that's proved for me, but not for you. 1793 01:31:02.680 --> 01:31:04.279 I haven't had one of those experiences. 1794 01:31:04.479 --> 01:31:05.079 In my youth. 1795 01:31:05.119 --> 01:31:07.920 I did try to pray to a God and genuinely 1796 01:31:07.960 --> 01:31:10.800 give myself to God when I was an Episcopalian school. 1797 01:31:10.920 --> 01:31:13.880 That didn't work. So I really don't know what the 1798 01:31:13.920 --> 01:31:16.399 evidence was. But I'm pretty sure that the God that 1799 01:31:16.439 --> 01:31:19.000 most Christians believe in would believe that their God is 1800 01:31:19.039 --> 01:31:21.479 powerful enough to convince me if they wanted to, And 1801 01:31:21.520 --> 01:31:24.760 they are probably pretty sure that most Christians would believe 1802 01:31:25.000 --> 01:31:29.439 that a genuine person who sincerely has tried to figure 1803 01:31:29.439 --> 01:31:32.319 this all out and just hasn't been convinced is not 1804 01:31:32.359 --> 01:31:37.039 doing anything wrong. Do you disagree with any of that? No, okay, 1805 01:31:37.479 --> 01:31:39.920 I don't know. John, Have you had a similar trial 1806 01:31:39.960 --> 01:31:41.439 and error test? 1807 01:31:42.960 --> 01:31:45.279 Though that wasn't cool? I never said you that. 1808 01:31:47.079 --> 01:31:49.039 You rewind the tape. We'll move past it. 1809 01:31:50.840 --> 01:31:53.720 I do know that if God does exist, he would 1810 01:31:53.800 --> 01:31:57.600 be the one to know that you know what would 1811 01:31:57.640 --> 01:32:00.640 convince me? So like, well, I don't know exactly what 1812 01:32:00.680 --> 01:32:04.439 would convince me other than you know, just empirical evidence 1813 01:32:04.479 --> 01:32:10.039 that leaves no uh no other reasonable explanation other than 1814 01:32:10.079 --> 01:32:13.640 a supernatural wizard that really cares about you know, everything 1815 01:32:13.760 --> 01:32:18.640 I do in my alone time. I feel like that God, 1816 01:32:18.720 --> 01:32:21.000 if he is omniscient, he would definitely know what would 1817 01:32:21.039 --> 01:32:21.520 convince me. 1818 01:32:21.720 --> 01:32:23.720 And I just have not been convinced yet. 1819 01:32:23.800 --> 01:32:26.079 And so right, And do you think that the callers 1820 01:32:26.079 --> 01:32:28.079 do you think that the colors that you say, you 1821 01:32:28.119 --> 01:32:31.279 show evidence after evidence after evidence and they still deny it. 1822 01:32:31.920 --> 01:32:34.359 You put you know so much anti you. 1823 01:32:34.279 --> 01:32:36.720 Know evidence to say, and they still don't believe it. 1824 01:32:37.159 --> 01:32:39.079 Do you think that that could be what you're doing? 1825 01:32:39.159 --> 01:32:39.640 Possibly? 1826 01:32:39.920 --> 01:32:41.880 It's like, for instance, well, I. 1827 01:32:41.880 --> 01:32:46.199 Don't understand the question. Honestly, I don't what you just said? Well, 1828 01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:48.199 did you repeat it and explain it to me again? 1829 01:32:48.560 --> 01:32:51.399 Sure? Sure? Do you think that you're doing what you 1830 01:32:51.479 --> 01:32:55.920 accuse the callers of doing when you apply what you 1831 01:32:55.920 --> 01:32:57.760 call anti evidence to their claim? 1832 01:32:57.840 --> 01:33:01.239 Or I don't call anything anti evidence? Okay, come on, 1833 01:33:01.880 --> 01:33:04.199 I don't. That's not a word in that I've ever 1834 01:33:04.239 --> 01:33:05.199 heard of in my life. 1835 01:33:05.319 --> 01:33:05.720 Okay. 1836 01:33:06.159 --> 01:33:09.560 So what I do is I ask questions. Somebody calls 1837 01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:12.680 up and makes a claim, and I ask questions, right, 1838 01:33:13.199 --> 01:33:14.039 how did this happen? 1839 01:33:14.079 --> 01:33:15.720 What does this happen? What's you're reasoning? 1840 01:33:16.479 --> 01:33:20.199 Then I try to see if there's any logical fallacies 1841 01:33:20.199 --> 01:33:23.119 in their reasoning or their methodology. And if there are 1842 01:33:23.399 --> 01:33:27.159 logical fallacies, then I point them out and say, this 1843 01:33:27.199 --> 01:33:29.960 seems to be a logical fallacy, or there seems to 1844 01:33:30.000 --> 01:33:33.039 be insufficient evidence to convince you that this is true. 1845 01:33:33.159 --> 01:33:35.359 Why are you convinced? That's the conversation? 1846 01:33:36.560 --> 01:33:36.800 Right? 1847 01:33:37.640 --> 01:33:41.760 Right? And no matter how much evidence you give against 1848 01:33:41.760 --> 01:33:45.600 their claim, right, that, they still will refuse to believe 1849 01:33:45.600 --> 01:33:47.640 that you're saying it takes years, I think you were 1850 01:33:47.640 --> 01:33:51.159 saying earlier, it takes years for people sometimes to convert 1851 01:33:51.199 --> 01:33:55.520 to atheism or whatever it is, or to convert their beliefs. 1852 01:33:55.560 --> 01:33:58.039 But I mean, I feel like what we do is 1853 01:33:58.039 --> 01:34:02.199 we appeal to basic laws in order to convince people 1854 01:34:02.239 --> 01:34:05.159 away from bad arguments, and we don't have any preconceived 1855 01:34:05.199 --> 01:34:07.439 notion as to whether or not they're just gonna up 1856 01:34:07.479 --> 01:34:09.960 and leave their faith, where we just hope to present 1857 01:34:10.560 --> 01:34:12.560 good answer arguments. 1858 01:34:12.800 --> 01:34:16.399 And we do the same methodology on Truth Wanted. I've 1859 01:34:16.399 --> 01:34:18.960 been on Truth Wanted, and we'll take calls about Bigfoot 1860 01:34:19.039 --> 01:34:21.399 and Crystal's healing people and UFOs. 1861 01:34:21.800 --> 01:34:23.159 It's not just God claims. 1862 01:34:23.199 --> 01:34:28.079 We're all about a methodology and hearing about people's reasons 1863 01:34:28.199 --> 01:34:30.359 and so we can like, hey, is there anything out 1864 01:34:30.399 --> 01:34:33.600 there that is convincing? So it's not unique to God. 1865 01:34:33.680 --> 01:34:36.439 It's just a good way of living. I want to 1866 01:34:36.439 --> 01:34:38.399 believe as many true things and as few false things 1867 01:34:38.399 --> 01:34:41.720 as possible, because if I believe false things are true, 1868 01:34:41.760 --> 01:34:43.199 I can harm myself for others. 1869 01:34:43.520 --> 01:34:44.319 Does that make sense? 1870 01:34:45.479 --> 01:34:48.159 It does make sense. It doesn't make sense. It seems 1871 01:34:48.159 --> 01:34:51.399 to me the like you know you're taking this claim 1872 01:34:51.439 --> 01:34:54.439 the default. The default is that there's no God, right. 1873 01:34:55.600 --> 01:34:58.119 The default is that the person making the claim has 1874 01:34:58.159 --> 01:35:00.159 the burden of proof to establish it, just like in 1875 01:35:00.159 --> 01:35:03.520 the courtroom where we think something's really important, we put 1876 01:35:03.520 --> 01:35:06.920 the duty on the prosecutor. We don't just assume you're 1877 01:35:06.960 --> 01:35:10.039 guilty because the neighborhood says you're guilty. We want people 1878 01:35:10.119 --> 01:35:13.319 to come to court and present evidence. That's that's how 1879 01:35:13.439 --> 01:35:16.399 humans have determined is the best way not to get 1880 01:35:16.439 --> 01:35:19.880 scammed or tricked or do something wrong to somebody. Don't 1881 01:35:19.920 --> 01:35:22.359 you want evidence of something before you believe it. 1882 01:35:23.159 --> 01:35:25.399 Yes, yes, but I think it's the evidence. 1883 01:35:25.800 --> 01:35:28.239 Yes, I do think that that's true. But some people 1884 01:35:28.439 --> 01:35:32.439 look at the world as evidence, right, Like you're saying, like, 1885 01:35:32.840 --> 01:35:35.399 you know, I hate to use this one because it's 1886 01:35:35.399 --> 01:35:37.279 so it's so badly used. 1887 01:35:37.279 --> 01:35:39.800 But you know, the fact that I know where you're going, Joe, 1888 01:35:39.800 --> 01:35:40.439 go ahead say it. 1889 01:35:41.439 --> 01:35:43.159 The fact that the fact that the world that we 1890 01:35:43.520 --> 01:35:45.840 shouldn't be here, basically that the world is so rare 1891 01:35:45.960 --> 01:35:47.840 that you know, blah blah blah, all these things that 1892 01:35:47.920 --> 01:35:51.239 need to happen. Okay, And you say, well, that's not evidence, 1893 01:35:51.279 --> 01:35:52.279 that's just you. 1894 01:35:52.239 --> 01:35:54.399 Know, I would disagree, and I can I point out 1895 01:35:54.479 --> 01:35:56.960 that you're putting words in my mouth a little bit. Okay, 1896 01:35:57.840 --> 01:36:01.079 So I'm coming at it from a technical definition of evidence. 1897 01:36:01.359 --> 01:36:04.680 So under the law, evidence is any fact or piece 1898 01:36:04.720 --> 01:36:07.439 of material or whatever that would make a claim more 1899 01:36:07.560 --> 01:36:11.880 or less likely true or false in any degree. So 1900 01:36:11.920 --> 01:36:15.239 I might go to trial and I might say I 1901 01:36:15.359 --> 01:36:17.880 want to, you know, hey, what's your hobby, witness, And 1902 01:36:17.920 --> 01:36:20.479 they might say I'm a tennis player, and the opposing 1903 01:36:20.520 --> 01:36:23.439 person says, I object, there's no reason that the person's 1904 01:36:23.439 --> 01:36:26.600 hobby has any relevance on his bank fraud scheme. And 1905 01:36:26.760 --> 01:36:30.119 I might say, well, you know, there's a statistical probability 1906 01:36:30.119 --> 01:36:32.319 that people who are in nightclubs or excuse me, who 1907 01:36:32.319 --> 01:36:34.279 are in tennis clubs and have to pay those fees 1908 01:36:34.319 --> 01:36:37.520 are going to be slightly harder to earn money because 1909 01:36:37.560 --> 01:36:39.800 it's expensive to be these clubs. So it's more likely 1910 01:36:39.840 --> 01:36:42.199 to go to motive a little bit, that he might 1911 01:36:42.239 --> 01:36:44.239 have more motive to rob the bank or do the 1912 01:36:44.239 --> 01:36:50.079 embezzling or whatever. It is evidence, it's just not sufficient evidence, right, 1913 01:36:50.159 --> 01:36:52.840 So I think almost anything is evidence, and I think 1914 01:36:52.840 --> 01:36:55.399 that word gets used incorrectly. That's why I always use 1915 01:36:55.439 --> 01:36:57.560 the phrase sufficient evidence. 1916 01:36:58.439 --> 01:37:02.479 So like a painting, the painting like, that's not sufficient 1917 01:37:02.479 --> 01:37:04.439 evidence of somebody painting? Is that what you're saying? 1918 01:37:05.039 --> 01:37:08.760 I think a painting is combined with the fact that 1919 01:37:08.800 --> 01:37:12.760 I've seen paintings before. I've seen people painting paintings. I've 1920 01:37:12.760 --> 01:37:17.079 seen myself. I have tried painting. I've seen paint supply stores. 1921 01:37:17.239 --> 01:37:20.199 I've seen all of these things. I've gone to museums 1922 01:37:20.199 --> 01:37:22.920 and seeing paintings. I've seen people who told me the 1923 01:37:22.960 --> 01:37:26.000 history of the paints. I've seen people frame paintings and 1924 01:37:26.119 --> 01:37:31.880 unframed paintings. I've got a mountain of evidence that establishes 1925 01:37:31.960 --> 01:37:33.479 that paintings exist. 1926 01:37:33.720 --> 01:37:35.560 And as none of that was true. 1927 01:37:35.800 --> 01:37:37.560 If none of that was true. 1928 01:37:37.319 --> 01:37:39.800 Right, you found a rock right on a beach, a 1929 01:37:39.880 --> 01:37:41.079 rock on a beach, right. 1930 01:37:41.279 --> 01:37:44.399 No, they just found a painting. Come on, this is 1931 01:37:44.479 --> 01:37:46.720 just a great point. I found a painting, right, and 1932 01:37:46.760 --> 01:37:48.199 none of what you said it was true. You didn't 1933 01:37:48.239 --> 01:37:50.319 know what a painting was. You didn't call it a painting. 1934 01:37:50.600 --> 01:37:53.600 Would you say that somebody did that or did you 1935 01:37:53.720 --> 01:37:55.600 would you say that it just happened to be like that? 1936 01:37:56.520 --> 01:37:58.000 We don't know. The answer is I don't know. 1937 01:37:58.039 --> 01:38:00.319 If I've never seen a painting, the concept of painting 1938 01:38:00.359 --> 01:38:02.600 doesn't exist in the world, and we're we're all cave man, 1939 01:38:02.640 --> 01:38:04.399 and I have no idea what it is. I might 1940 01:38:04.479 --> 01:38:05.239 think it's a lunch. 1941 01:38:05.920 --> 01:38:10.000 I feel like that's the earth. You might so thin, 1942 01:38:11.159 --> 01:38:12.840 you might think this may did it. I feel like 1943 01:38:12.920 --> 01:38:13.880 that's what the earth is. 1944 01:38:15.159 --> 01:38:18.960 Yeah, but Joe Joel, listen what we have natural explanations 1945 01:38:19.000 --> 01:38:21.880 for how the earth could form the way that it did. 1946 01:38:22.279 --> 01:38:25.760 And this is analogous to the painting. Hold on, we 1947 01:38:26.159 --> 01:38:30.319 know lege you talk. This is analogous to the painting 1948 01:38:30.520 --> 01:38:32.640 thing because we have a natural explanation for the painting. 1949 01:38:32.720 --> 01:38:35.520 Somebody had to paint it, A sentient being had to 1950 01:38:35.720 --> 01:38:37.359 have been there to do the painting. 1951 01:38:37.600 --> 01:38:44.079 Maybe ninety nine that happening by chance is impossible. Won't 1952 01:38:44.159 --> 01:38:47.680 You won't here and say it's point one? Unlike some 1953 01:38:47.720 --> 01:38:48.119 other people. 1954 01:38:48.159 --> 01:38:50.359 I believe the point so I believe the burden of 1955 01:38:50.439 --> 01:38:53.239 proof is on the point one, not the ninety nine 1956 01:38:53.239 --> 01:38:54.199 point nine nine. 1957 01:38:54.800 --> 01:38:58.000 Right, Yes, but you're ignoring the evidence. I just went 1958 01:38:58.039 --> 01:39:00.640 through a whole thing of evidence that makes sit a 1959 01:39:00.760 --> 01:39:03.800 point one, And then you said, well, what if none 1960 01:39:03.840 --> 01:39:06.840 of that evidence existed? What would happen? And I said, well, 1961 01:39:06.840 --> 01:39:08.760 if I'm a caveman I've never seen a painting before, 1962 01:39:08.920 --> 01:39:12.000 I might think it's lunch, just like animals when we 1963 01:39:12.079 --> 01:39:14.399 put a mirror in the jungle. You've maybe seen these 1964 01:39:14.520 --> 01:39:17.520 videos where people go put mirrors in jungles and these 1965 01:39:17.560 --> 01:39:20.079 animals have never seen them before. They don't know what 1966 01:39:20.119 --> 01:39:22.760 the fuck they are. They think they're seeing another cat. 1967 01:39:23.199 --> 01:39:25.520 I said that, so I don't think we can put 1968 01:39:25.520 --> 01:39:27.800 ourselves into the mindset of a world where we've never 1969 01:39:27.800 --> 01:39:30.319 seen paintings. That's why I asked, what about a rock 1970 01:39:30.479 --> 01:39:31.039 on a beach? 1971 01:39:31.439 --> 01:39:33.760 I said that for effect, though, right, because we do 1972 01:39:33.920 --> 01:39:36.760 know how That's why we said it's rare, because we 1973 01:39:36.800 --> 01:39:38.880 do know about all these things, right. We do know 1974 01:39:39.079 --> 01:39:41.560 that there's a frame of the frame, and the paint 1975 01:39:41.560 --> 01:39:43.680 store and all this stuff. That's all the stuff that 1976 01:39:43.720 --> 01:39:46.760 goes along with making it rare. Right, That's why we 1977 01:39:46.840 --> 01:39:49.520 called it a rarity, right, because we know all. 1978 01:39:49.520 --> 01:39:53.000 I'm sure what is rareness, And like paintings are very common. 1979 01:39:53.279 --> 01:39:54.159 I'm confirmed you knew it. 1980 01:39:54.359 --> 01:39:56.159 You knew that you knew where I was talking about. 1981 01:39:56.199 --> 01:39:59.640 Comparing this to the earth, right that we're very very. 1982 01:40:00.039 --> 01:40:04.680 Yes, got it? Okay, So to John's point, to John's point, 1983 01:40:05.000 --> 01:40:06.920 if you go and study the literature, I think this 1984 01:40:07.000 --> 01:40:10.520 is what you're making John. We have the painters, the painting, 1985 01:40:10.600 --> 01:40:13.560 the art supply store, the canvases. We have that much 1986 01:40:13.600 --> 01:40:15.920 evidence taking us all the way back to the Big 1987 01:40:15.960 --> 01:40:18.760 Bang as to how this all happened. We know this, 1988 01:40:18.840 --> 01:40:21.399 We have an answer and it doesn't involve God. Is 1989 01:40:21.399 --> 01:40:22.640 that what you were saying, John. 1990 01:40:23.159 --> 01:40:25.680 Yeah, we don't have a need for God to explain 1991 01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:30.359 those things. So like, well, it's it's the possibility, which. 1992 01:40:30.199 --> 01:40:30.479 Is what. 1993 01:40:32.000 --> 01:40:34.439 Jump from there? How did that jump from that? I'm 1994 01:40:34.439 --> 01:40:36.680 so sorry, but how did that jump from there? Are 1995 01:40:36.720 --> 01:40:39.119 all the viewers that assume that that's true? How did 1996 01:40:39.159 --> 01:40:40.359 that jump from that to that? 1997 01:40:40.600 --> 01:40:44.399 You are you asserting that we don't have well established 1998 01:40:44.399 --> 01:40:47.079 evidence as to what happened after the Big Bang till now? 1999 01:40:47.520 --> 01:40:48.960 I you do agree to that? 2000 01:40:49.560 --> 01:40:52.640 Okay, So that's what I'm saying. That's the that's the 2001 01:40:52.640 --> 01:40:55.479 the evidence we have. It's not just we don't just 2002 01:40:55.640 --> 01:40:59.399 look at the Earth and go, oh, a miracle, have 2003 01:40:59.520 --> 01:41:02.760 no idea how this happened. We have tons of evidence 2004 01:41:02.760 --> 01:41:04.159 as to how the Earth was formed. 2005 01:41:04.479 --> 01:41:09.479 Right, So, Joel, what we've observed, what we've observed outside 2006 01:41:09.640 --> 01:41:14.640 of of our Earth, you know, through astronomy and other sciences, 2007 01:41:15.000 --> 01:41:20.079 is that giant gas clouds will collapse when they are 2008 01:41:20.159 --> 01:41:24.000 hit by a shockwave from a collapsing star. And when 2009 01:41:24.039 --> 01:41:27.520 these gas clouds, these huge glass gas clouds collapse, they 2010 01:41:27.600 --> 01:41:31.760 eventually collect and using static forces, the particles will clump 2011 01:41:31.800 --> 01:41:36.920 together in localized areas, and those clumps will get bigger 2012 01:41:36.920 --> 01:41:39.319 and bigger and bigger until gravity takes over. And then 2013 01:41:39.520 --> 01:41:42.680 and then gravity takes over and still collapse all these 2014 01:41:42.720 --> 01:41:46.039 debris and dust. Now, once this giant gas cloud, there's 2015 01:41:46.840 --> 01:41:52.119 trillions and trillions of tons of particles eventually coalaced one 2016 01:41:52.239 --> 01:41:57.479 into a star that forms due to large gravitational forces 2017 01:41:57.520 --> 01:42:00.640 that causes fusion to happen, and that this light and 2018 01:42:00.680 --> 01:42:05.680 everything like that. The remaining dust particles around that star 2019 01:42:06.000 --> 01:42:10.520 that start to coalesce into planets, and planets are a 2020 01:42:10.520 --> 01:42:14.439 certain amount of distance away from that star that are 2021 01:42:14.439 --> 01:42:18.000 in what's called the Goldie Log zone form and uh, 2022 01:42:18.039 --> 01:42:21.279 they can form atmospheres, they can form in different kinds 2023 01:42:21.279 --> 01:42:25.399 of ways that then progress into larger and larger planets 2024 01:42:25.399 --> 01:42:26.640 then can sol. 2025 01:42:27.199 --> 01:42:30.000 And holding all this and I understand and holding all 2026 01:42:30.039 --> 01:42:31.520 this energy together is what. 2027 01:42:33.319 --> 01:42:38.680 Gravity, small and strong nuclear forces, electromagnetic for I think 2028 01:42:38.760 --> 01:42:39.760 all of those things. 2029 01:42:39.680 --> 01:42:44.239 All right, Doctor Joel, Please tell me what's correct? Is 2030 01:42:44.239 --> 01:42:44.640 it God? 2031 01:42:44.760 --> 01:42:46.800 Is it the first? 2032 01:42:47.119 --> 01:42:48.680 The first say that you don't know? Right? 2033 01:42:50.399 --> 01:42:52.479 Do you know? But so are you? 2034 01:42:52.600 --> 01:42:56.399 Are you literally asking what is holding particles together inside 2035 01:42:56.439 --> 01:42:57.000 of planet dark? 2036 01:42:57.000 --> 01:42:57.880 Because that's what we're talking. 2037 01:42:58.000 --> 01:42:59.880 Understand you understand dark energy. 2038 01:43:01.039 --> 01:43:04.840 I understand dark energy? Yes, okay, I mean I understand 2039 01:43:04.840 --> 01:43:06.840 it as in I know what it is, but I 2040 01:43:06.880 --> 01:43:09.760 don't think anybody on the planet understands it to the 2041 01:43:09.800 --> 01:43:14.239 point of similar understanding of how to make a bicycle. 2042 01:43:15.079 --> 01:43:17.399 I think you're right. I think you're right. I think 2043 01:43:17.439 --> 01:43:19.640 there's a lot that we don't understand. And it doesn't 2044 01:43:19.680 --> 01:43:22.000 mean that there's a god. Doesn't mean that there's a god. 2045 01:43:22.039 --> 01:43:24.840 That's not evidenced directly if there's a god. But what 2046 01:43:24.880 --> 01:43:26.840 I'm saying is that there's lots that we're going to 2047 01:43:26.840 --> 01:43:30.039 be figuring right out, and I don't understand how that 2048 01:43:30.119 --> 01:43:32.560 has anything to do with their being or not being 2049 01:43:32.560 --> 01:43:33.800 a god. 2050 01:43:34.119 --> 01:43:36.720 You were the one who said, look at the earth, dude. 2051 01:43:37.159 --> 01:43:39.720 You you gave the look at the trees argument. 2052 01:43:41.079 --> 01:43:45.359 Come on, all right, So you have been a lot. 2053 01:43:46.319 --> 01:43:46.720 Thank you. 2054 01:43:46.880 --> 01:43:49.840 I appreciate you. Guys, thank you for calling. Do you 2055 01:43:49.880 --> 01:43:52.680 have other colleagues to get to but that's a good note. 2056 01:43:53.560 --> 01:43:54.760 It's not as funny as you think. 2057 01:43:54.840 --> 01:43:56.039 It's not as funny as you think. 2058 01:43:56.279 --> 01:43:58.079 Okay, all right, call back again. 2059 01:43:58.039 --> 01:43:59.800 Bye bye, all right, thank you. 2060 01:44:00.079 --> 01:44:03.239 Oh boy, I don't know what any of this has. 2061 01:44:03.039 --> 01:44:03.960 To do with God. 2062 01:44:04.319 --> 01:44:06.960 I thought that was a pretty funny thing, like I'm 2063 01:44:07.039 --> 01:44:08.000 pretty comedic. 2064 01:44:08.920 --> 01:44:09.840 Oh my gosh. 2065 01:44:10.479 --> 01:44:13.119 I didn't really understood the whole, the whole idea that 2066 01:44:13.199 --> 01:44:16.239 God is necessary for physical processes to happen. 2067 01:44:16.479 --> 01:44:19.199 Again, I don't know that that's what he's making I 2068 01:44:19.199 --> 01:44:22.079 think I think him asking what's holding that all together? 2069 01:44:22.119 --> 01:44:27.279 He was speaking figuratively, and uh, he was hinting at 2070 01:44:28.039 --> 01:44:29.960 he was looking for an I don't know, Like I 2071 01:44:30.239 --> 01:44:33.920 readily admit, I don't think anybody understands everything about dark matter. 2072 01:44:34.000 --> 01:44:36.079 We still don't have a unified theory of physics as 2073 01:44:36.079 --> 01:44:38.000 far as the four forces go. There's a lot we 2074 01:44:38.119 --> 01:44:41.720 don't know. But that doesn't mean God exists. We we 2075 01:44:41.840 --> 01:44:43.680 used to think the Earth was flat. Now we know 2076 01:44:43.760 --> 01:44:47.119 a bill jillion times more so we've it's really a 2077 01:44:47.119 --> 01:44:50.640 God of the gaps argument. We don't know this therefore God. 2078 01:44:51.560 --> 01:44:52.800 I think that's where he was going. I don't know 2079 01:44:52.840 --> 01:44:53.840 what were your thoughts. 2080 01:44:54.319 --> 01:44:58.319 Well, I mean, I feel like that's incredibly Uh, my 2081 01:44:58.479 --> 01:45:00.920 camera has apparently decided to die real quick. 2082 01:45:02.000 --> 01:45:06.960 It's okay, it's a permanent kind of eye roll. 2083 01:45:07.560 --> 01:45:10.560 But I think that I'm trying to fix it problem. 2084 01:45:11.479 --> 01:45:14.359 I think that what he was where he was going 2085 01:45:14.439 --> 01:45:17.640 to know, where he was going to go with it 2086 01:45:17.760 --> 01:45:20.640 was simply that you know, God is necessary to hold 2087 01:45:20.640 --> 01:45:22.199 things together and everything like that. 2088 01:45:22.399 --> 01:45:24.960 And I'm not exactly sure why my camera has. 2089 01:45:25.960 --> 01:45:27.800 Well, while you're fiddling with that, I'm going to jump on. 2090 01:45:27.840 --> 01:45:29.359 We have a few more calls where near the end 2091 01:45:29.399 --> 01:45:31.000 of time, I do want to get them on. They've 2092 01:45:31.000 --> 01:45:33.279 been patiently waiting, So I'm going to jump to Will 2093 01:45:33.520 --> 01:45:37.319 no pronouns given from Canada wants to address the chat 2094 01:45:37.479 --> 01:45:41.880 question for the week, which was God's Evil Change our Minds? 2095 01:45:41.960 --> 01:45:45.560 Sort of provocative prompt, Will do I have you right? 2096 01:45:45.600 --> 01:45:48.319 You want to talk about whether or not there is 2097 01:45:48.359 --> 01:45:52.239 a God and whether or not that God is evil? Yeah, okay, 2098 01:45:52.319 --> 01:45:54.279 what's up with you? What do you believe? Why do 2099 01:45:54.319 --> 01:45:55.760 you believe it? And what does that have to do 2100 01:45:55.800 --> 01:45:56.479 with an evil God? 2101 01:45:57.840 --> 01:45:58.039 Well? 2102 01:45:58.039 --> 01:46:03.159 I probably like it's about all the things of God, right, 2103 01:46:03.239 --> 01:46:12.560 But I would consider myself a Catholic heretic, and I 2104 01:46:12.640 --> 01:46:15.840 came to God like in nineteen. 2105 01:46:15.920 --> 01:46:19.680 But it's kind of personal. I don't really like to 2106 01:46:19.720 --> 01:46:20.439 talk about it. 2107 01:46:21.239 --> 01:46:25.880 Okay, Well, you said you wanted to address the chat question, 2108 01:46:25.960 --> 01:46:29.720 and the chat question was God is evil? Changed our mind? 2109 01:46:29.920 --> 01:46:34.840 So change our mind? Why which God are you talking about? 2110 01:46:35.119 --> 01:46:36.880 And why is that God not evil? 2111 01:46:40.199 --> 01:46:41.800 Which God that I'm talking about? 2112 01:46:41.840 --> 01:46:42.119 Well? 2113 01:46:42.880 --> 01:46:45.800 First, the I would say, like the train turing God, 2114 01:46:46.039 --> 01:46:46.600 the train. 2115 01:46:46.479 --> 01:46:53.039 Team, the one depicted in the Bible, specifically, possibly the 2116 01:46:53.079 --> 01:46:55.840 Catholic version of the Bible generally, Yeah is that God? 2117 01:46:55.960 --> 01:46:56.159 Yeah? 2118 01:46:56.239 --> 01:46:56.399 Yeah? 2119 01:46:56.479 --> 01:46:56.960 Yeah, God? 2120 01:46:57.560 --> 01:47:01.239 Just Christ, God, whisper Godfather understood? 2121 01:47:01.399 --> 01:47:03.760 Okay, why is that God not evil? 2122 01:47:04.279 --> 01:47:07.680 I would say, it is misunderstood? 2123 01:47:08.760 --> 01:47:11.520 Okay, yeah, let me can I test that real quick? 2124 01:47:12.000 --> 01:47:13.119 Okay? 2125 01:47:13.319 --> 01:47:13.680 Okay. 2126 01:47:14.279 --> 01:47:14.399 Uh. 2127 01:47:14.680 --> 01:47:18.960 So there's a passage in Exodus where it stipulates that 2128 01:47:19.079 --> 01:47:22.720 a father can sell their daughter into sexual slavery, and 2129 01:47:22.880 --> 01:47:26.039 you seem to think that I'm just misunderstanding that, and 2130 01:47:26.119 --> 01:47:28.079 I'm just wondering, can you clarify that. 2131 01:47:28.079 --> 01:47:28.600 One for me? 2132 01:47:30.560 --> 01:47:32.239 It is said that is it? 2133 01:47:32.279 --> 01:47:33.960 Is it? 2134 01:47:33.960 --> 01:47:42.159 It's a commandment directly from God. Yes, I think you 2135 01:47:42.239 --> 01:47:44.479 talked about it earlier, but like my point of view 2136 01:47:44.479 --> 01:47:49.840 on this is like God is working with people with 2137 01:47:49.920 --> 01:47:51.000 the times that they're in. 2138 01:47:51.399 --> 01:47:56.800 God's meeting people where they are. God is a political gradualist, right. 2139 01:47:56.880 --> 01:47:58.800 What is a political gradualist? 2140 01:47:59.520 --> 01:48:03.039 God? A political gradualist is somebody who realizes they can't 2141 01:48:03.119 --> 01:48:05.640 get what needs to be done done right away because 2142 01:48:05.680 --> 01:48:08.319 they got to deal with people and make deals and 2143 01:48:08.359 --> 01:48:12.399 sort of eventually, if we position ourselves and everything right, 2144 01:48:12.439 --> 01:48:15.119 eventually we'll get this country or this state or this 2145 01:48:15.199 --> 01:48:17.079 county to where it needs to be. But I can't 2146 01:48:17.079 --> 01:48:20.000 come in and just dictate things or otherwise the people 2147 01:48:20.039 --> 01:48:20.600 will revolt. 2148 01:48:21.159 --> 01:48:21.920 Is that what you're saying? 2149 01:48:22.399 --> 01:48:23.319 Some kind of right? 2150 01:48:23.479 --> 01:48:28.199 But like, so, why did God say no gay sex 2151 01:48:28.279 --> 01:48:32.359 and you can't eat shrimp as just absolute laws? Shrimp 2152 01:48:32.439 --> 01:48:34.840 was very popular. Why did he come in and say 2153 01:48:35.439 --> 01:48:38.920 can't do that absolute no gradualism there. But when he 2154 01:48:39.000 --> 01:48:43.000 says you can sell your daughter into sexual slavery, that 2155 01:48:43.159 --> 01:48:45.119 was because he felt like he couldn't come in and say, 2156 01:48:45.239 --> 01:48:48.000 don't sell people, don't sell your daughters. That would have 2157 01:48:48.039 --> 01:48:48.560 been too much. 2158 01:48:48.640 --> 01:48:50.279 Is that what you're saying, right? 2159 01:48:50.319 --> 01:49:00.399 It's about what no gay sex and eating shrimp? Bruh, 2160 01:48:58.000 --> 01:49:04.520 I'm look, I'm not like I'm not going to say 2161 01:49:04.560 --> 01:49:07.119 like I understand why God does things or not? 2162 01:49:07.600 --> 01:49:07.800 Right? 2163 01:49:11.199 --> 01:49:12.520 Can I reframe it? Go ahead? 2164 01:49:12.600 --> 01:49:15.479 John, Well, I was just gonna say, maybe maybe I 2165 01:49:15.479 --> 01:49:19.000 can ask you this more direct question. If you were 2166 01:49:19.039 --> 01:49:22.840 in a governorship, or let's say you're president, would you 2167 01:49:22.920 --> 01:49:26.199 ever maybe king, let's say king, because that that one 2168 01:49:26.359 --> 01:49:28.600 I think is a bit more analogous here. Let's say 2169 01:49:28.600 --> 01:49:31.800 you're a king. Would would you ever make a law 2170 01:49:32.319 --> 01:49:36.920 that says that fathers can sell their daughters as a 2171 01:49:36.960 --> 01:49:41.239 sexual slave to another man or another man's son? 2172 01:49:41.880 --> 01:49:42.000 Uh? 2173 01:49:42.880 --> 01:49:45.399 Would you ever make an edict or a law that 2174 01:49:45.399 --> 01:49:47.720 that allows that in your kingdom? 2175 01:49:47.760 --> 01:49:48.479 Would you do that? 2176 01:49:51.079 --> 01:49:51.359 First? 2177 01:49:51.399 --> 01:49:53.800 It what depends in which time period? It would depend 2178 01:49:54.000 --> 01:49:54.840 on context. 2179 01:49:55.000 --> 01:49:55.720 I and. 2180 01:49:57.920 --> 01:50:01.680 Now you yourself right now, you your brother. 2181 01:50:01.680 --> 01:50:05.159 Will anything, Will Will Will Will Will Will. 2182 01:50:05.840 --> 01:50:07.840 Just think of the economy. What is the fucking economy 2183 01:50:07.840 --> 01:50:09.359 I have to do with selling your daughter? 2184 01:50:09.680 --> 01:50:13.319 John asked you you right now, would you pass that law? 2185 01:50:13.520 --> 01:50:15.359 Sitting here today? Boom, we've just. 2186 01:50:15.279 --> 01:50:18.640 Given you the power. Yeah, We're just giving you the 2187 01:50:18.640 --> 01:50:21.520 power to control all of the universe. Would you tell 2188 01:50:21.600 --> 01:50:24.199 people on Earth it's okay to sell your daughters into 2189 01:50:24.239 --> 01:50:25.119 sexual slavery. 2190 01:50:25.800 --> 01:50:28.600 Maybe if I was in the I would be or 2191 01:50:28.640 --> 01:50:29.359 something like that. 2192 01:50:29.439 --> 01:50:31.640 But what you're a bad person then. 2193 01:50:32.239 --> 01:50:35.479 No, but right now, no, no, you hold on, hold on, 2194 01:50:35.520 --> 01:50:38.399 you're shifting. You're shifting, you're changing it. Right, I'm saying 2195 01:50:38.520 --> 01:50:42.399 you yourself right now, your person not like any No, 2196 01:50:42.640 --> 01:50:47.479 you would not. Okay, God does Why are you better 2197 01:50:47.520 --> 01:50:48.279 than your God? 2198 01:50:50.079 --> 01:50:52.600 I don't think. I don't think God allow allows it? 2199 01:50:52.640 --> 01:50:52.840 Now? 2200 01:50:53.600 --> 01:50:57.159 No, no, he allowed it is God. You believe in 2201 01:50:57.199 --> 01:50:59.159 the true and that God changed his mind. 2202 01:50:59.520 --> 01:51:03.439 Yeah, human did with the. 2203 01:51:03.760 --> 01:51:09.479 God changed his mind. No, this is okay, so two 2204 01:51:09.560 --> 01:51:10.439 thousand years ago. 2205 01:51:11.000 --> 01:51:15.720 Yeah, people at the time, right, you're working with the 2206 01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:16.479 people at the time. 2207 01:51:17.760 --> 01:51:21.279 Right, this is so he's a political gradualist. He could 2208 01:51:21.439 --> 01:51:23.159 are you saying he's working with the people at the time? 2209 01:51:23.159 --> 01:51:25.880 That is in if I came in and said slavery 2210 01:51:25.960 --> 01:51:29.119 is wrong. Okay, let's take let's take the Ten Commandments, right. 2211 01:51:29.239 --> 01:51:31.680 I think you and I can probably improve the Ten Commandments. 2212 01:51:31.760 --> 01:51:34.920 Right now, three of the verses are I am a 2213 01:51:35.000 --> 01:51:37.920 jealous God, obey me, don't go to other gods. Right, 2214 01:51:37.960 --> 01:51:40.399 that's three of them. There's really only four that have 2215 01:51:40.600 --> 01:51:45.159 rules of don't kill, don't murder, don't covet you know, 2216 01:51:45.319 --> 01:51:49.159 don't rob, don't lie. Couldn't we take one of those 2217 01:51:49.319 --> 01:51:53.000 ten commandments that said, don't worship another god or I 2218 01:51:53.079 --> 01:51:55.600 am the Lord God, fear me type of goud. Couldn't 2219 01:51:55.640 --> 01:51:59.079 we take that one of those three and it's change 2220 01:51:59.079 --> 01:52:03.079 it to you shall not own people as property. Wouldn't 2221 01:52:03.119 --> 01:52:05.520 that have been the best rule that would make the 2222 01:52:05.560 --> 01:52:09.960 Ten Commandments infinitely better if from day one the Ten 2223 01:52:10.000 --> 01:52:12.279 Commandments said don't own slaves. 2224 01:52:12.600 --> 01:52:14.359 But okay, I don't want. 2225 01:52:14.720 --> 01:52:17.399 Would that be have been better for humanity? Sure? 2226 01:52:17.479 --> 01:52:19.840 Yes, but okay I want to I don't want. I 2227 01:52:19.840 --> 01:52:22.039 don't support slavery in any kid. 2228 01:52:22.159 --> 01:52:22.319 Right. 2229 01:52:22.880 --> 01:52:25.199 I'm not saying you do. I'm just asking pointing out 2230 01:52:25.239 --> 01:52:28.079 what John is pointing out, which is your God in 2231 01:52:28.199 --> 01:52:31.239 the Old Testament endorsed slavery, and then in the New 2232 01:52:31.279 --> 01:52:35.720 Testament says the old laws shall not shall go unchanged, 2233 01:52:35.760 --> 01:52:38.239 Not a jot or tittle of the law shall change 2234 01:52:38.279 --> 01:52:42.439 until all things have been accomplished. So your Old Testament 2235 01:52:42.479 --> 01:52:47.399 God said, not only is slavery okay, but if they're foreigners, 2236 01:52:47.439 --> 01:52:49.199 you can own them for life, You can give them 2237 01:52:49.239 --> 01:52:52.199 to your kids, you can have sex with them. That's 2238 01:52:52.239 --> 01:52:54.800 what the Old Testament says. And then you come to 2239 01:52:54.880 --> 01:52:57.399 us and say God's good. And that's where John has 2240 01:52:57.399 --> 01:52:58.880 this question. Go ahead, John, Well. 2241 01:52:58.800 --> 01:52:59.600 I was just gonna say. 2242 01:52:59.600 --> 01:53:02.359 And then you're you're telling us that God has God 2243 01:53:02.439 --> 01:53:05.079 is this sort of what did you call it there? 2244 01:53:05.239 --> 01:53:06.680 Political gradualist? 2245 01:53:06.720 --> 01:53:10.079 Political gradualist when it comes to selling your daughter into 2246 01:53:10.159 --> 01:53:13.640 sexual slavery. But immediately he could be like, yo, guys, 2247 01:53:13.720 --> 01:53:15.439 no butt sex, all right. 2248 01:53:15.359 --> 01:53:18.800 Don't kill people, don't steal, don't cove it. Not even 2249 01:53:18.880 --> 01:53:20.079 don't don't covet. 2250 01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:21.880 It's not even don't kill people. 2251 01:53:22.000 --> 01:53:26.159 It's it's you know, don't kill people asterisk I tell 2252 01:53:26.199 --> 01:53:30.680 you babies and children in the face and then it's okay, right, So, 2253 01:53:30.920 --> 01:53:33.960 like God is a progressive gradualist when it comes to 2254 01:53:34.039 --> 01:53:37.520 sexual slavery and regular chattel slavery and all that. But 2255 01:53:37.880 --> 01:53:40.600 you know, also don't wear mixed fabrics and you gotta 2256 01:53:40.640 --> 01:53:41.760 have guardrails. 2257 01:53:41.279 --> 01:53:44.920 On top of your roofs, and like that's just And I'll. 2258 01:53:44.720 --> 01:53:47.479 Go back to the covet like that one of the 2259 01:53:47.600 --> 01:53:51.319 ten commandments is don't be jealous of your neighbor. Like 2260 01:53:51.399 --> 01:53:54.600 how is that? I mean, it's not like only do 2261 01:53:54.720 --> 01:53:58.359 it when it's reasonable if he has a really nice car. Like, 2262 01:53:58.399 --> 01:54:01.960 it's not a gradualist thing at all. It's literally don't 2263 01:54:02.000 --> 01:54:05.680 do it full stop. So he's not a political gradualist 2264 01:54:05.760 --> 01:54:10.800 on don't be jealous, But somehow he couldn't muster up 2265 01:54:10.880 --> 01:54:14.600 the will power to say, you know what you. 2266 01:54:14.640 --> 01:54:16.560 Talk about it earlier with Joel. I think the name 2267 01:54:16.600 --> 01:54:21.319 it was is like there's something like there's something right 2268 01:54:21.359 --> 01:54:26.199 now that in the future will be immoral, but the 2269 01:54:26.319 --> 01:54:29.239 thing that would still be moral as we have with 2270 01:54:29.359 --> 01:54:29.920 them today. 2271 01:54:30.119 --> 01:54:34.199 Right, So what you're what you're arguing is it was 2272 01:54:34.319 --> 01:54:37.439 morally good back then because people thought it was good 2273 01:54:37.439 --> 01:54:37.800 back then. 2274 01:54:38.119 --> 01:54:41.399 Yeah, the people think I thought, so what people good? 2275 01:54:41.439 --> 01:54:44.199 But maybe maybe not good? Right, but more like like 2276 01:54:44.319 --> 01:54:45.880 the utility kind of way. 2277 01:54:47.079 --> 01:54:51.800 So you're a utilitarian Oh, I don't know what is that? Basically, 2278 01:54:52.600 --> 01:54:55.239 you know, do whatever, it's okay to murder if that 2279 01:54:55.359 --> 01:54:57.800 ends up in as a net positive for the most 2280 01:54:57.880 --> 01:55:00.439 people type of thing. I don't think you're really want 2281 01:55:00.439 --> 01:55:03.000 to make that argument, do you. It's okay to torture 2282 01:55:03.039 --> 01:55:04.760 this one little girl and keep her locked in a 2283 01:55:04.840 --> 01:55:07.359 room if everybody else can go look at that little 2284 01:55:07.359 --> 01:55:09.319 girl and go, Wow, I'm really lucky. This makes me 2285 01:55:09.399 --> 01:55:11.640 really happy to be in this society. You wouldn't want 2286 01:55:11.640 --> 01:55:13.560 to torture and imprison a little girl just to make 2287 01:55:13.560 --> 01:55:15.000 everybody a little happier, right. 2288 01:55:16.800 --> 01:55:21.039 No, but no, no, no, but I don't like it. 2289 01:55:21.479 --> 01:55:22.720 It's kind of complex through you. 2290 01:55:23.399 --> 01:55:26.119 Here's why it's complex. We got other callers, John, I'd 2291 01:55:26.159 --> 01:55:27.640 love for you to chime in on this as well. 2292 01:55:28.279 --> 01:55:30.239 But here's why I think it's complex for you. You 2293 01:55:30.319 --> 01:55:33.319 know that slavery's wrong. You know that it was wrong 2294 01:55:33.399 --> 01:55:35.800 two thousand years ago. You wouldn't want to be a 2295 01:55:35.840 --> 01:55:38.119 slave two thousand years ago. You wouldn't want to be 2296 01:55:38.159 --> 01:55:40.920 my slave today under the laws that were in effect 2297 01:55:41.000 --> 01:55:43.760 under the Old Testament. You surely wouldn't want that. You 2298 01:55:43.920 --> 01:55:47.159 know it's wrong, but you can't say it's wrong because 2299 01:55:47.199 --> 01:55:50.479 saying it's wrong creates this cognitive dissonance in your head 2300 01:55:50.479 --> 01:55:52.640 where you're like, I know it's wrong and it was 2301 01:55:52.680 --> 01:55:55.439 always wrong, but this script that I'm reading from this 2302 01:55:55.600 --> 01:55:59.520 Bible thing says that God said it was okay. How 2303 01:55:59.520 --> 01:56:02.239 do I all of those two things? And your brain 2304 01:56:02.319 --> 01:56:05.319 is sort of doing these backflips to say, well, maybe 2305 01:56:05.359 --> 01:56:08.840 there was some sort of you know, consensus, and God 2306 01:56:08.960 --> 01:56:11.600 was a gradualist and he couldn't dictate this rule even 2307 01:56:11.600 --> 01:56:15.199 though he dictated six hundred other rules. You know, That's 2308 01:56:15.239 --> 01:56:18.039 what's going on. What are your thoughts, Joe, Well. 2309 01:56:18.680 --> 01:56:23.119 Yeah, so I don't really understand restricting God in the 2310 01:56:23.199 --> 01:56:26.439 sense that is being restricted, because like it seems to 2311 01:56:26.560 --> 01:56:31.079 violate the traditional view of God, like the trinitarian view 2312 01:56:31.159 --> 01:56:33.960 as well as the triomny view. I would assume that 2313 01:56:34.000 --> 01:56:37.159 you would think that God is omni benevolent, omniscient, and. 2314 01:56:39.279 --> 01:56:43.399 See I'm omnipotent. Yeah, so, I. 2315 01:56:43.319 --> 01:56:45.720 Mean, if he is omnipotent, then he definitely has the 2316 01:56:45.800 --> 01:56:48.520 power to make the small caveat of like you know, 2317 01:56:48.640 --> 01:56:52.760 don't don't grape women, don't rape women, or don't own slaves, 2318 01:56:52.760 --> 01:56:55.439 like he can make those small caveats he and and 2319 01:56:56.199 --> 01:56:57.520 all throughout the Old Testament. 2320 01:56:57.920 --> 01:56:58.720 And you'd have to. 2321 01:56:58.680 --> 01:57:01.359 Agree with me on this will that throughout the Old 2322 01:57:01.359 --> 01:57:04.520 Testament God has laid down his commandment six hundred and 2323 01:57:04.560 --> 01:57:08.720 thirteen of them, and God expects the Israelites to follow 2324 01:57:08.960 --> 01:57:13.239 every single one of them, and when they don't, he 2325 01:57:13.359 --> 01:57:17.119 perceives that as them rejecting him, and he has to 2326 01:57:17.600 --> 01:57:21.199 punish them as some form of justice, and he does 2327 01:57:21.279 --> 01:57:23.439 this several times throughout the Old Testament. 2328 01:57:23.439 --> 01:57:25.840 It's like a running thing. You could plot it on 2329 01:57:25.880 --> 01:57:28.399 a line, like the Israelites. 2330 01:57:28.439 --> 01:57:31.319 They fall away from God, and then God gets mad 2331 01:57:31.359 --> 01:57:34.439 at him. He punishes them in one way or another, 2332 01:57:34.760 --> 01:57:36.720 and then they come back in line with God for 2333 01:57:36.760 --> 01:57:37.680 a little bit, and then they. 2334 01:57:37.600 --> 01:57:38.279 Fall out again. 2335 01:57:38.479 --> 01:57:43.159 It's like a fucking sign wave right of all these 2336 01:57:43.199 --> 01:57:45.359 troughs and everything like that, and then falling away from God. 2337 01:57:45.479 --> 01:57:49.039 So God definitely expects them to follow on and do 2338 01:57:49.119 --> 01:57:51.319 what he asked them to do, and when they don't, 2339 01:57:51.359 --> 01:57:55.319 they are getting punished. So with him having that expectation, 2340 01:57:56.079 --> 01:57:59.000 there's no reason for him to be like, I'm not 2341 01:57:59.079 --> 01:58:04.439 gonna put you know, don't own slaves, don't institute sexual slavery, 2342 01:58:04.760 --> 01:58:08.960 don't don't kill children ever. Like he could put those 2343 01:58:08.960 --> 01:58:12.079 things in his top ten of the commandments that he gives, 2344 01:58:12.159 --> 01:58:16.640 but he didn't. He never issued those particular. 2345 01:58:17.239 --> 01:58:22.600 I can I say something real quick, real quick. Honestly, 2346 01:58:23.000 --> 01:58:24.560 I made a mistake. 2347 01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:26.640 I almost think. 2348 01:58:26.560 --> 01:58:31.520 I'm properly like equipped to answer this question that God 2349 01:58:31.640 --> 01:58:37.279 is evil, right, And I think it's evident because I 2350 01:58:37.520 --> 01:58:40.840 didn't really know what to engage with right the question. 2351 01:58:41.039 --> 01:58:45.079 So that's an incredibly honest answer, dude. I really appreciate 2352 01:58:45.159 --> 01:58:48.319 that we're coming at you having read all of these passages. 2353 01:58:48.359 --> 01:58:51.720 We sort of have AMMO in our bandoliers ready to shoot, 2354 01:58:51.960 --> 01:58:53.760 and you're being very honest with us, and I really 2355 01:58:53.760 --> 01:58:56.199 do appreciate that that's you should be applauded for that. 2356 01:58:57.199 --> 01:58:59.399 I do think that John was on the right track 2357 01:58:59.439 --> 01:59:02.399 bringing all this up. This is sort of the demonstration 2358 01:59:02.680 --> 01:59:06.279 that either you really haven't read your Bible and you 2359 01:59:06.319 --> 01:59:09.600 haven't thought about it in the context of wait a second, 2360 01:59:10.720 --> 01:59:14.000 all of these laws are in here, and it doesn't 2361 01:59:14.000 --> 01:59:14.920 say don't own slaves. 2362 01:59:14.960 --> 01:59:16.239 In fact, it says the opposite. 2363 01:59:16.319 --> 01:59:18.760 You can own slaves, and you can rape them, and 2364 01:59:18.840 --> 01:59:20.960 you can sell them, and you can give them to 2365 01:59:21.039 --> 01:59:23.239 your children, just so long as they're foreigners. You can 2366 01:59:23.239 --> 01:59:25.760 treat foreigners like shit, you can beat them with an 2367 01:59:25.760 --> 01:59:27.760 image of your life, and as long as they can 2368 01:59:27.880 --> 01:59:30.279 get up and walk around for about two days and 2369 01:59:30.319 --> 01:59:35.399 then die later, you're okay, you did nothing wrong. And 2370 01:59:36.039 --> 01:59:38.239 we have that as sort of being like, ah, I 2371 01:59:38.279 --> 01:59:41.439 have to explain this as people of the time really 2372 01:59:41.520 --> 01:59:44.239 wanted to own slaves, so he couldn't come in and 2373 01:59:44.279 --> 01:59:47.720 say you can't own slaves. But then we have laws 2374 01:59:47.720 --> 01:59:50.800 that say things like, don't have sex with your neighbor's wife. 2375 01:59:51.640 --> 01:59:54.439 No if aans or, but just don't do it. And 2376 01:59:54.479 --> 01:59:56.039 if you're going to sit around and tell me that 2377 01:59:56.239 --> 01:59:59.520 men since the dawn of time have not both coveted 2378 01:59:59.560 --> 02:00:02.399 their neighbors wife and actually had sex with their neighbor's wife, 2379 02:00:02.399 --> 02:00:04.960 and you don't think that would have been a problem 2380 02:00:05.000 --> 02:00:07.399 for people to follow. I got a bridge to sell you. 2381 02:00:07.560 --> 02:00:09.159 So John, do you want to wrap up on this? 2382 02:00:09.960 --> 02:00:14.840 Yeah? I mean essentially, I do. I understand feeling out 2383 02:00:14.880 --> 02:00:17.319 of your depth. And we definitely weren't mentioning like you 2384 02:00:17.359 --> 02:00:18.920 haven't read your Bible as being like. 2385 02:00:18.920 --> 02:00:20.119 A knock against you. 2386 02:00:20.159 --> 02:00:21.159 No, no, no, not at all. 2387 02:00:21.399 --> 02:00:24.560 Yeah, like I when I was a Christian, I did 2388 02:00:24.600 --> 02:00:25.520 not read my Bible. 2389 02:00:25.640 --> 02:00:26.159 I did not. 2390 02:00:27.640 --> 02:00:30.600 Some real quick sure, absolutely will. But yeah, let's let 2391 02:00:30.680 --> 02:00:32.640 John finish and then we'll give you the last word. 2392 02:00:32.680 --> 02:00:35.560 Yeah, well I was Yeah, I was just going to 2393 02:00:35.600 --> 02:00:40.279 say that I you know, I I didn't read my 2394 02:00:40.319 --> 02:00:42.520 Bible as a Christian. And it wasn't until I got 2395 02:00:42.600 --> 02:00:45.680 challenged on that to like what I you know what 2396 02:00:45.720 --> 02:00:48.479 I believe, why I believe it. When I got challenged 2397 02:00:48.520 --> 02:00:52.680 on that, that's when, you know, I started really analyzing 2398 02:00:52.680 --> 02:00:54.239 that and reading the Bible and. 2399 02:00:54.199 --> 02:00:54.760 Everything like that. 2400 02:00:54.880 --> 02:00:57.800 So I think taking this opportunity to really go through 2401 02:00:57.960 --> 02:00:59.840 and suss out what you believe, why you believe it, 2402 02:00:59.840 --> 02:01:02.960 about the Bible and the Trinitarian God, I think this 2403 02:01:03.039 --> 02:01:05.840 is a you know, a key opportunity for you to 2404 02:01:05.960 --> 02:01:09.680 really solidify you know, those things for yourself, as opposed 2405 02:01:09.680 --> 02:01:12.760 to having somebody wants instruct you as to what to think. 2406 02:01:13.439 --> 02:01:17.479 Yeah, right, well on that right. I think ultimately the 2407 02:01:17.640 --> 02:01:22.239 quest of God, like believing him in him or not 2408 02:01:22.640 --> 02:01:27.359 or whatever, is an individual quiest that you have to 2409 02:01:27.359 --> 02:01:31.479 figure out for yourself. And I do believe that you 2410 02:01:31.520 --> 02:01:33.600 have to put at someone, You have to put your 2411 02:01:33.800 --> 02:01:37.479 ego on the side, and you have to say that 2412 02:01:37.560 --> 02:01:46.159 you you don't understand more than you understand, and so yeah, 2413 02:01:46.239 --> 02:01:49.680 it's you have to figure like those questions. But I'm sure, 2414 02:01:49.760 --> 02:01:53.760 I'm sure there's many answers of God is evil and 2415 02:01:53.800 --> 02:01:56.039 why he isn't or this or that, but at the 2416 02:01:56.119 --> 02:01:57.920 end of the they have to make up your own mind. 2417 02:01:59.039 --> 02:02:03.079 And like for me, I think for me, a person 2418 02:02:03.159 --> 02:02:05.439 in my fathe in God like I didn't get it fair, 2419 02:02:05.560 --> 02:02:08.079 I got like revelations, right, I got some visions and 2420 02:02:08.079 --> 02:02:12.920 stuff like that. But I I know I have the 2421 02:02:13.000 --> 02:02:15.079 right to be angry with God, to say I don't 2422 02:02:15.159 --> 02:02:19.039 understand God, and it's it's it's very tough because the 2423 02:02:19.079 --> 02:02:21.720 reflexes would be just to close myself to God. 2424 02:02:21.760 --> 02:02:22.000 But I. 2425 02:02:23.560 --> 02:02:27.560 Think I find much more value in cultivating a relationship 2426 02:02:27.640 --> 02:02:32.039 with God and with faith and and trusting in God 2427 02:02:32.079 --> 02:02:34.039 for my life and my purpose and meaning. 2428 02:02:34.159 --> 02:02:39.439 So this is yeah, I appreciate your honesty. Will I 2429 02:02:39.439 --> 02:02:42.960 think that my advice to you were I to give you, 2430 02:02:43.000 --> 02:02:47.720 and it would be instead of focusing on you having 2431 02:02:47.800 --> 02:02:51.279 to trust in God, focus on why you believe in 2432 02:02:51.279 --> 02:02:52.880 God in the first place. I know you said you 2433 02:02:52.880 --> 02:02:54.720 didn't want to talk about it, but focus on that 2434 02:02:55.199 --> 02:02:58.680 and ask yourself what I know I understand, but I 2435 02:02:58.840 --> 02:03:02.000 focus on it, and then ask yourself, is that a 2436 02:03:02.000 --> 02:03:04.359 good reason to do anything else in my life? Would 2437 02:03:04.359 --> 02:03:06.840 I believe an investor who wanted a million dollars for 2438 02:03:06.920 --> 02:03:09.239 me based on these reasons or things like that? And 2439 02:03:09.279 --> 02:03:12.520 then compare those feelings the reasons you have for believing 2440 02:03:12.560 --> 02:03:14.760 a God and the next step is to say, okay, 2441 02:03:14.760 --> 02:03:18.079 does that lead me to believe in the Christian God? 2442 02:03:18.119 --> 02:03:20.079 Because those are two different things. A lot of people 2443 02:03:20.159 --> 02:03:23.479 have these, like the person in our first caller had 2444 02:03:23.520 --> 02:03:26.800 these sort of what he would call spiritual experiences like 2445 02:03:26.840 --> 02:03:29.319 I just feel love and that's God. And then they 2446 02:03:29.359 --> 02:03:31.920 glom on to what's around them in their community. They 2447 02:03:31.920 --> 02:03:36.840 glom onto Christianity. Christianity because it's the easiest answer they 2448 02:03:36.880 --> 02:03:40.399 have of the pocketed like answer to why am I 2449 02:03:40.479 --> 02:03:43.439 having these feelings? Just because you believe there's a God 2450 02:03:43.479 --> 02:03:45.479 doesn't necessarily you need to be a need to be 2451 02:03:45.600 --> 02:03:49.960 a Christian. And just because you're a Christian doesn't necessarily 2452 02:03:50.000 --> 02:03:52.560 mean you need to be an Old Testament Christian. Right, 2453 02:03:52.680 --> 02:03:55.960 So there's lots of things to consider there, and I 2454 02:03:57.199 --> 02:03:57.800 want to pay. 2455 02:03:58.199 --> 02:04:01.560 I told you guys, I'm a cat sleek heritage soul. 2456 02:04:02.079 --> 02:04:04.439 Yeah exactly. I found that interesting. By the way, I 2457 02:04:04.479 --> 02:04:07.079 didn't get to ask that question. So that's good, all right, 2458 02:04:07.359 --> 02:04:10.000 thank you so much. There will anything for you to 2459 02:04:10.039 --> 02:04:14.239 add there, godless No, oh right, we have a one 2460 02:04:14.319 --> 02:04:16.640 more call if you have a moment, should we take it? 2461 02:04:16.920 --> 02:04:17.119 Yeah? 2462 02:04:18.039 --> 02:04:22.039 Great? So I think the pronunciation is Eve or a 2463 02:04:22.359 --> 02:04:25.680 E V E. Eve Morning Star. She her they from 2464 02:04:25.720 --> 02:04:29.279 Canada wants to talk about how the Christian God seems 2465 02:04:29.279 --> 02:04:33.079 to view worship as a sexual thing. Am I pronouncing 2466 02:04:33.119 --> 02:04:35.199 your name right? Is it Eve or Eve? 2467 02:04:35.880 --> 02:04:36.880 Are you able to hear me? 2468 02:04:37.279 --> 02:04:38.279 I'm able to hear you. 2469 02:04:38.399 --> 02:04:41.000 WE got you, thank you, And I go by Eve 2470 02:04:41.119 --> 02:04:45.479 as a play on atheist. I'm child free, so I've 2471 02:04:45.479 --> 02:04:48.159 gone a whole lot of pressure to have children, and 2472 02:04:48.239 --> 02:04:50.439 I like a play on not a mother. 2473 02:04:51.119 --> 02:04:55.079 I got it understood a Eve got it as in 2474 02:04:55.119 --> 02:04:57.039 an atheist, ave got it? 2475 02:04:57.199 --> 02:04:57.760 I got it? 2476 02:04:57.880 --> 02:05:00.800 Very nice. So you want to talk about Christian God 2477 02:05:01.119 --> 02:05:04.159 that views worship as a sexual thing. So could you 2478 02:05:04.199 --> 02:05:07.359 explain to us where you see worship, what is worship, 2479 02:05:07.600 --> 02:05:11.399 and how that is either literally or symbolically sexual? 2480 02:05:11.840 --> 02:05:12.039 Yeah? 2481 02:05:12.079 --> 02:05:14.159 So first, are you guys comfortable to talk about this 2482 02:05:15.079 --> 02:05:20.119 content of sexual discussion, about sexual assault definitions and everything 2483 02:05:20.119 --> 02:05:21.359 else like that before I proceed. 2484 02:05:21.680 --> 02:05:23.600 Absolutely sounds good. 2485 02:05:24.159 --> 02:05:27.479 So I am working on a master's thesis that's heavy 2486 02:05:27.720 --> 02:05:32.479 and feminist discussion where I apply John W. Lostis's the 2487 02:05:32.560 --> 02:05:35.880 Outstar Test for Faith. I combine with Tector A. Garcia's 2488 02:05:35.920 --> 02:05:41.119 book Alpha God, and I also combine it with as 2489 02:05:41.119 --> 02:05:45.760 well with tetter Ablosis Fighting Words books, where he discusses 2490 02:05:45.800 --> 02:05:48.920 his view of religious violence, and so I can take 2491 02:05:48.960 --> 02:05:52.119 those together to create a feminist version of the idea 2492 02:05:52.159 --> 02:05:55.600 of religious violence. And after Outlows discusses where I say 2493 02:05:55.640 --> 02:05:58.760 that all right, So whenever Christians have a definition like 2494 02:05:58.760 --> 02:06:01.560 with the Outstar test for faith, where they apply to others, 2495 02:06:01.880 --> 02:06:04.840 therefore a week apply it to them. And so when 2496 02:06:04.840 --> 02:06:08.239 the Bible goes into detail saying that worship of other 2497 02:06:08.279 --> 02:06:11.479 gods of adultery and a whoring after other gods, woul't 2498 02:06:11.479 --> 02:06:13.880 them amply that the worship of the physical God is 2499 02:06:13.960 --> 02:06:17.479 also a sexual matter if you'f use worship in general 2500 02:06:17.880 --> 02:06:19.880 as something that's sexually related. 2501 02:06:20.359 --> 02:06:22.680 Have you done any linguistics? Can you hear me? By 2502 02:06:22.720 --> 02:06:27.840 the way, my headphones are okay, good? So this is 2503 02:06:27.880 --> 02:06:31.239 an interesting concept. Have you done any linguistic studies of 2504 02:06:31.279 --> 02:06:35.760 the meanings and translations of the word adultery from original 2505 02:06:35.760 --> 02:06:37.920 text or the closest to original text we have, because 2506 02:06:37.920 --> 02:06:40.880 I would not be surprised if multiple different words are 2507 02:06:40.920 --> 02:06:43.920 translated as adulterous or adultery and they have subtle but 2508 02:06:43.960 --> 02:06:46.760 different meanings. I'd be intellectually curious to see if you've 2509 02:06:46.800 --> 02:06:47.920 done any research there. 2510 02:06:48.239 --> 02:06:51.560 I fail in my linguistic capabilities, and so I heavily 2511 02:06:51.560 --> 02:06:54.840 rely on tests by those who are more scholarly in 2512 02:06:54.880 --> 02:06:57.640 a topic, such as, for instance, Professor Jennifer Bird and 2513 02:06:57.720 --> 02:06:59.960 her Book's Marriage in the Bible, where she goes to 2514 02:07:00.239 --> 02:07:04.359 when in translations of law, different terms with fascinating. 2515 02:07:04.520 --> 02:07:08.439 So, John, what are your thoughts here on on this 2516 02:07:08.439 --> 02:07:08.960 this study? 2517 02:07:09.000 --> 02:07:10.399 This is an interesting study to me? 2518 02:07:10.720 --> 02:07:13.319 Well, yeah, I mean I think that there there's a 2519 02:07:13.359 --> 02:07:18.079 lot of sexual connotations with it in in UH, especially 2520 02:07:18.119 --> 02:07:23.079 in the Old Testament's portrayal of like the UH of 2521 02:07:23.119 --> 02:07:26.239 being in a relationship with God. Sorry I had a 2522 02:07:26.319 --> 02:07:31.319 dark screen up and but being in a relationship with God, 2523 02:07:31.399 --> 02:07:33.560 like it being a marriage and like you know, Israel 2524 02:07:33.640 --> 02:07:35.560 is in a marriage with God. And there's so many 2525 02:07:35.640 --> 02:07:40.119 different analogies of portraying God as the as the groom, 2526 02:07:40.199 --> 02:07:43.640 and Jesus as or not Jesus but Israel or the 2527 02:07:43.680 --> 02:07:48.279 people the followers as the bride and everything, and uh, 2528 02:07:48.399 --> 02:07:50.079 so I think that it's it's it's a. 2529 02:07:50.079 --> 02:07:52.680 Rather unique view, and I definitely think. 2530 02:07:52.479 --> 02:07:55.119 That that part of it is some kind of sexual 2531 02:07:55.439 --> 02:07:59.920 coercion because God is definitely trying to control the sexual line, 2532 02:08:00.600 --> 02:08:03.600 or at least the character God in the theology is 2533 02:08:03.640 --> 02:08:07.199 trying to control the sexual lives of the adherents, and 2534 02:08:07.279 --> 02:08:10.760 specifically the sexual lives of women. Uh, not so much 2535 02:08:10.800 --> 02:08:14.720 the sexual lives of men, other than to protect men's properties. 2536 02:08:14.840 --> 02:08:16.640 What I am shocked. 2537 02:08:17.119 --> 02:08:18.600 I'm shocked at the accusation. 2538 02:08:20.640 --> 02:08:23.439 Yeah, so I definitely see your point. 2539 02:08:23.159 --> 02:08:28.439 There a a eve a yes, A kind of like 2540 02:08:28.479 --> 02:08:31.000 the same emphais as atheist so A. 2541 02:08:31.880 --> 02:08:34.680 Yeah, yeah, I was trying to I was trying to 2542 02:08:34.720 --> 02:08:37.359 do it, bnail it. I suck at pronouncing things, so 2543 02:08:37.399 --> 02:08:38.319 I'm trying to get it right. 2544 02:08:39.359 --> 02:08:42.600 You're doing great, So I willso take a lot of 2545 02:08:42.600 --> 02:08:45.560 different theories, like of course, my thesis is nine hundred 2546 02:08:45.600 --> 02:08:49.520 pages long and its draft form alone all my tribute. 2547 02:08:49.880 --> 02:08:52.520 So this is more of a leading questions, more the 2548 02:08:52.600 --> 02:08:57.039 one about the idea of that as such, especially because 2549 02:08:57.079 --> 02:09:01.840 we have definitions of AGVID, sexual assault and sexual assaults 2550 02:09:02.039 --> 02:09:05.439 in its different degrees. I'm from Canada. Would you mind 2551 02:09:05.479 --> 02:09:08.720 if I read out our definitions of sexual assaults that 2552 02:09:08.760 --> 02:09:11.520 way any listeners would be familiar with the topic. 2553 02:09:12.439 --> 02:09:15.960 I'd say the time that we have is probably limited, 2554 02:09:16.000 --> 02:09:19.079 but we can probably just explain it to say, the 2555 02:09:19.279 --> 02:09:25.479 higher the degree, the more invasive and morally offending the 2556 02:09:25.520 --> 02:09:27.600 behavior is. It can be in everything from a low 2557 02:09:27.640 --> 02:09:31.079 degree with an unwanted touching all the way to full 2558 02:09:31.119 --> 02:09:34.439 on sexual penetration with some sort of motive getting all 2559 02:09:34.439 --> 02:09:36.760 the way to the highest degree. So I accept the 2560 02:09:36.760 --> 02:09:42.880 premise that we have most cultures nowadays have degrees if 2561 02:09:43.359 --> 02:09:48.239 various criminal offenses, including sexual assault, is the specific wording 2562 02:09:48.319 --> 02:09:50.000 relevant to your. 2563 02:09:49.840 --> 02:09:53.880 Point just one where I want to note that sexual 2564 02:09:53.880 --> 02:09:57.359 assault does not have to include actual silence penetration, or 2565 02:09:57.439 --> 02:10:01.119 I think it can simply be sexual attend or for instance, 2566 02:10:01.439 --> 02:10:05.399 someone was stalking a person, for instance, the ever present 2567 02:10:05.640 --> 02:10:08.800 God of the Bible who is apparently watching us all 2568 02:10:08.840 --> 02:10:11.279 the time, including the two people in the Garden of 2569 02:10:11.399 --> 02:10:15.000 Eden who were not aware to even be ashamed to 2570 02:10:15.039 --> 02:10:17.520 cover themselves up, and so he was essentially being a 2571 02:10:17.560 --> 02:10:20.439 voyeur at that point in time as well. But I 2572 02:10:20.479 --> 02:10:23.399 wanted to know that acrid sexual assault could simply be 2573 02:10:23.760 --> 02:10:27.479 violence that has a sexual connotation to it as well, 2574 02:10:27.880 --> 02:10:31.199 where it's for instance, a stalker who commits the violence 2575 02:10:31.199 --> 02:10:36.039 against someone's reproductive or gentle organs because of a desire 2576 02:10:36.039 --> 02:10:38.640 to punish them sexually. And I would like to note 2577 02:10:38.680 --> 02:10:44.039 that what if hell is both punishing atheists for unwanted 2578 02:10:44.119 --> 02:10:47.439 sexual attention that we have declined from a biblical God, 2579 02:10:47.920 --> 02:10:50.760 not to mention that the curse of ease appears to 2580 02:10:50.800 --> 02:10:53.279 be accurate sexual assault as well too, for if women 2581 02:10:53.319 --> 02:10:55.800 are cursed with childbirth, So what does that make all 2582 02:10:55.960 --> 02:10:58.439 maternal mortality and morbidity statistics? 2583 02:10:58.960 --> 02:11:03.000 So I find it interesting. I'm not sure what conclusions 2584 02:11:03.119 --> 02:11:07.399 or purpose or utility the observation would have other than 2585 02:11:07.479 --> 02:11:10.840 just to point out some similarities. So I would encourage you. 2586 02:11:11.319 --> 02:11:15.119 First of all, it would be more interesting I think 2587 02:11:15.159 --> 02:11:17.159 if you expand it beyond the Canadian law and sort 2588 02:11:17.159 --> 02:11:20.119 of look at all cultures that have been strongly. 2589 02:11:19.720 --> 02:11:20.520 Influenced by you. 2590 02:11:20.800 --> 02:11:22.760 It's best on our talk show and our time today. 2591 02:11:23.000 --> 02:11:23.199 Yeah. 2592 02:11:23.439 --> 02:11:27.079 Perfect, Okay, So that's point one. Point two is what 2593 02:11:27.319 --> 02:11:32.720 is the end point of your publication? What do you 2594 02:11:32.760 --> 02:11:34.840 want people to take away from it? And more importantly, 2595 02:11:34.880 --> 02:11:37.079 what do you want? But what behaviors do you want 2596 02:11:37.119 --> 02:11:40.960 to change based on this? What's the point is it? 2597 02:11:41.960 --> 02:11:42.199 Hey? 2598 02:11:42.399 --> 02:11:47.359 The authors of these scriptures were heavily influenced by concepts 2599 02:11:47.359 --> 02:11:48.279 of sexuality. 2600 02:11:48.760 --> 02:11:51.239 Or is there something more than it than that. 2601 02:11:51.920 --> 02:11:54.960 My own premise is the idea that previously we had 2602 02:11:54.960 --> 02:11:58.640 blasphemy and heresy laws, where those were laws that Christians 2603 02:11:58.680 --> 02:12:02.680 apply to non Christristians who they viewed as an ethnicity. 2604 02:12:03.159 --> 02:12:06.439 As the original Christians said that non Christianity is an 2605 02:12:06.680 --> 02:12:11.239 ethnos ethnicity, earned viewed it as almost in a racialized 2606 02:12:11.279 --> 02:12:15.039 manner by viewing non Christians as racialized task what if, 2607 02:12:15.359 --> 02:12:18.800 as for the outstart test for faith, where religious views 2608 02:12:18.840 --> 02:12:23.039 that are put onto non religious members instead are put 2609 02:12:23.119 --> 02:12:25.880 back onto them. What would it mean for ethics and 2610 02:12:25.960 --> 02:12:30.039 morality discussion of philosophy if we would say that, what 2611 02:12:30.439 --> 02:12:33.880 if the biblical God is a rapist as sexual like 2612 02:12:33.920 --> 02:12:38.279 someone who's committing sexual assault of non Christians or just 2613 02:12:38.359 --> 02:12:41.439 people in general, such as, for instance, all women, And 2614 02:12:41.479 --> 02:12:43.199 what does that mean for those who choose to politically 2615 02:12:43.239 --> 02:12:46.640 and financially support that being when we already have cases 2616 02:12:46.640 --> 02:12:49.319 such as for instance, Jeffrey Epstein cases going on. So 2617 02:12:49.359 --> 02:12:52.479 it's more of a plastical consideration of currently in the 2618 02:12:52.600 --> 02:12:55.680 world we are still fighting Hairstine blasphemy laws. What do 2619 02:12:55.800 --> 02:12:58.600 it mean if we would have a counterpoint to it 2620 02:12:58.800 --> 02:13:00.960 in the exact same way that whenever we have book 2621 02:13:01.000 --> 02:13:03.039 fans going on, so we can always note that the 2622 02:13:03.079 --> 02:13:06.800 Bible actually violates a law of their obsceneity definitions for 2623 02:13:06.960 --> 02:13:09.760 try and take down for instances LGBT books or for 2624 02:13:09.760 --> 02:13:12.199 instance housey tag temple has for instance in the past, 2625 02:13:12.439 --> 02:13:14.520 but a bath met statue in order to challenge ten 2626 02:13:14.560 --> 02:13:17.960 Commandment statues. What if we knowed that, just like how 2627 02:13:18.199 --> 02:13:22.000 Christians and others have used haresing blasphemy laws against non Christians, 2628 02:13:22.159 --> 02:13:26.119 what about using mortal laws based on epicure and ethics 2629 02:13:26.279 --> 02:13:30.439 aka ancient atheism against Christians by knowing that if you're 2630 02:13:30.479 --> 02:13:32.239 going to say that we deserve to have been charged 2631 02:13:32.239 --> 02:13:34.760 with them in the past, and you're still not exonering 2632 02:13:34.840 --> 02:13:38.199 past which child victims for instance, and past heresy child victims, 2633 02:13:38.399 --> 02:13:41.279 then should you not be subject to our laws being 2634 02:13:41.319 --> 02:13:44.399 applied to your God? Why is your God not being 2635 02:13:44.439 --> 02:13:47.159 able to be subject to human laws and morality? 2636 02:13:47.760 --> 02:13:50.199 Well, there's a couple of quick answers from I have. 2637 02:13:50.359 --> 02:13:53.680 One is you don't have any place to address to 2638 02:13:53.720 --> 02:13:57.119 serve God process, so you can't sue them, and you 2639 02:13:57.119 --> 02:13:59.960 can't you can't arrest them. So from a practical standpoint, 2640 02:14:00.239 --> 02:14:05.000 that's that's like the legal answer is yeah. I mean, 2641 02:14:05.039 --> 02:14:08.560 that's a tongue in cheek answer. But there are it 2642 02:14:08.680 --> 02:14:10.560 might be fun to include in your paper. There are 2643 02:14:10.680 --> 02:14:15.640 there are cases where judges have dismissed lawsuits against God 2644 02:14:16.359 --> 02:14:19.239 by on civil procedure grounds. Just you know, when you 2645 02:14:19.239 --> 02:14:21.319 sue somebody, you file a complaint with the court and 2646 02:14:21.359 --> 02:14:24.319 then you have to serve the papers on God, and 2647 02:14:24.399 --> 02:14:26.840 if you can't, you have to go to the judge 2648 02:14:26.880 --> 02:14:30.439 and say here's why I couldn't serve. And judges have 2649 02:14:30.520 --> 02:14:33.439 just dismissed the case because you know, instead of saying 2650 02:14:33.479 --> 02:14:35.439 there is no such thing as God, they're basically like, hey, 2651 02:14:35.640 --> 02:14:38.000 I'll let you sue God if you want, but you 2652 02:14:38.079 --> 02:14:39.760 have to serve on papers, and if you can't, then 2653 02:14:39.800 --> 02:14:42.800 the case dismissed. And I kind of have that as 2654 02:14:42.840 --> 02:14:44.640 a tongue in cheek response, but I also have it 2655 02:14:44.680 --> 02:14:47.760 as a as a sort of it would be interesting 2656 02:14:47.800 --> 02:14:50.319 to add those cases to your paper as sort. 2657 02:14:50.239 --> 02:14:51.039 Of a counterpoint. 2658 02:14:52.760 --> 02:14:54.319 The other the other one before I give it over 2659 02:14:54.359 --> 02:14:59.399 to John, is I think intellectually it makes a good point, right, 2660 02:15:00.199 --> 02:15:03.680 I think that intellectually saying to this day we have 2661 02:15:03.840 --> 02:15:07.920 anti blasphemy laws where we get calls occasionally from people 2662 02:15:07.960 --> 02:15:11.000 in countries where if their family or their government knew 2663 02:15:11.039 --> 02:15:13.039 they were calling us and saying they were the atheists, 2664 02:15:13.399 --> 02:15:17.079 they're risking their lives. We have journalists being executed in 2665 02:15:17.079 --> 02:15:22.520 places like Singapore because they write about, you know, it's 2666 02:15:22.560 --> 02:15:24.439 not great to be a Muslim, or something like that. 2667 02:15:24.720 --> 02:15:28.640 We have a lot of those laws. I'm not sure 2668 02:15:28.960 --> 02:15:35.319 how convincing the argument would be to say, well, those 2669 02:15:35.439 --> 02:15:41.079 laws are designed to protect a god. Are What you're 2670 02:15:41.079 --> 02:15:44.199 saying is those laws are designed to attack non believers, 2671 02:15:44.520 --> 02:15:48.199 And I'd agree with that generally, with some exceptions. And 2672 02:15:48.239 --> 02:15:51.560 then you're saying, wouldn't it turn about be fair play 2673 02:15:51.760 --> 02:15:56.920 if we attacked believers with man made laws, specifically those 2674 02:15:57.239 --> 02:16:00.479 having to do with sexual assault, and accuse God of 2675 02:16:00.560 --> 02:16:05.319 being a sexual assault perpetrator. If I'm understanding you, I'm 2676 02:16:05.319 --> 02:16:08.159 not sure that that would move the needle on anybody's 2677 02:16:08.199 --> 02:16:11.960 scale anywhere. I'm not sure do I have your argument right? 2678 02:16:12.039 --> 02:16:14.720 Am I summing you up? Probably too tightly? But is 2679 02:16:14.960 --> 02:16:17.279 that generally sort of the idea of what you're saying. 2680 02:16:17.600 --> 02:16:19.680 I actually go over a bunch of different things. I 2681 02:16:19.720 --> 02:16:22.960 have two parts to my thesis. One is on semistery 2682 02:16:23.000 --> 02:16:25.279 and the other one is more on religious silence, where 2683 02:16:25.279 --> 02:16:27.800 I take up the topic christ of fascism. So it's 2684 02:16:27.960 --> 02:16:31.840 all laws being applied, but specifically I was suscessions byed 2685 02:16:31.840 --> 02:16:36.040 by godless engineers post today advertising for the show whereak 2686 02:16:36.040 --> 02:16:38.600 you know his name? About atheists? So why didn't you 2687 02:16:38.719 --> 02:16:41.360 just fabricate a body for yourself like you did for Adam? 2688 02:16:41.600 --> 02:16:42.159 Do you know? 2689 02:16:42.680 --> 02:16:45.680 I just really like raping little girls. I enforce them 2690 02:16:45.719 --> 02:16:48.280 to first. So I want to focus on that topic 2691 02:16:48.399 --> 02:16:52.879 because it is half of my thesis is because I 2692 02:16:52.879 --> 02:16:56.120 do have a focus on semistery. However, I would notice 2693 02:16:56.159 --> 02:16:58.840 that as for the outstart test for faith, as Christians 2694 02:16:58.879 --> 02:17:02.120 in the past have brought non believers into court by 2695 02:17:02.120 --> 02:17:04.680 saying that they represent God, that we went half to 2696 02:17:04.680 --> 02:17:06.399 bring God into course with someth we have to bring 2697 02:17:06.440 --> 02:17:09.399 the exact same group of people so previously playing that 2698 02:17:09.440 --> 02:17:11.600 they could represent godfully in course on their own. 2699 02:17:12.000 --> 02:17:19.079 Yeah, you will get any or your thoughts, John Well. 2700 02:17:18.959 --> 02:17:22.040 I was going to ask you, are you sorry? I 2701 02:17:22.360 --> 02:17:25.120 was trying to follow along? Were are you in agreement 2702 02:17:25.200 --> 02:17:27.239 with my posts? Or do you think I went too 2703 02:17:27.280 --> 02:17:28.079 far in my post? 2704 02:17:29.040 --> 02:17:31.920 I became atheist in the pews, hide in the pews 2705 02:17:32.000 --> 02:17:36.120 eleven years old from being sexually assaulted at Christian Summer Counts. 2706 02:17:36.479 --> 02:17:38.079 I am in poor agreement with your post. 2707 02:17:38.520 --> 02:17:41.479 Okay, now, yeah, I because I you know, I get 2708 02:17:41.479 --> 02:17:44.399 pushed back sometimes from from atheists on that. I'm so 2709 02:17:44.399 --> 02:17:47.520 sorry you had that experience. By the way, I agree, uh, 2710 02:17:47.600 --> 02:17:50.719 And I'm kind of curious in in your dissertation there, 2711 02:17:51.479 --> 02:17:56.079 what what kind of do you discuss like Mary being 2712 02:17:56.319 --> 02:17:57.239 being raped at all? 2713 02:17:57.440 --> 02:18:01.639 Like in the Okay, yeah, because I you know. 2714 02:18:01.920 --> 02:18:04.639 It's so strange and I don't know if you've found this, 2715 02:18:04.959 --> 02:18:07.159 Like I don't know if you talked to many theists 2716 02:18:07.159 --> 02:18:12.680 out there, Christians specifically, but they always seem rather surprised 2717 02:18:12.719 --> 02:18:15.760 whenever you point out the fact that Mary was raped 2718 02:18:15.799 --> 02:18:16.319 by God. 2719 02:18:16.719 --> 02:18:20.479 In that I got so much pushback at university. 2720 02:18:21.559 --> 02:18:24.360 Really well push I'll push back to John and I 2721 02:18:24.360 --> 02:18:26.680 have had this conversation. But I'm coming at it from 2722 02:18:26.719 --> 02:18:30.399 a lawyer's point of view, and if you use the 2723 02:18:30.440 --> 02:18:33.000 word rape, it's got this sort of You talked about 2724 02:18:33.000 --> 02:18:35.559 the tears, right, and typically it has to do with 2725 02:18:36.000 --> 02:18:39.399 you know, sexual organs interacting against the will. I totally 2726 02:18:39.440 --> 02:18:42.879 agree that she was assaulted. I e battered technically if 2727 02:18:42.879 --> 02:18:45.799 you go with a traditional law, but I disagree that 2728 02:18:45.879 --> 02:18:48.120 she was raped. I'm not sure I agree that she 2729 02:18:48.239 --> 02:18:50.360 was sexually assaulted, but I agree that something happened to 2730 02:18:50.399 --> 02:18:52.520 her against the will that we would criminalize today. 2731 02:18:53.000 --> 02:18:54.040 So so the way that. 2732 02:18:56.200 --> 02:18:58.520 I'm gonna let you ask the question because I know 2733 02:18:58.559 --> 02:19:00.200 what John's question I think is going to be. But 2734 02:19:00.280 --> 02:19:01.879 let's see if they're the same question. Go ahead. 2735 02:19:02.920 --> 02:19:05.959 Are you aware of Professor Richard Carrier's books The detailed 2736 02:19:06.040 --> 02:19:09.920 how earliest Christianity viewed God essentially as an alien. For 2737 02:19:10.200 --> 02:19:13.680 heaven hell we're said to exist somewhere between the Earth. 2738 02:19:13.559 --> 02:19:14.440 And the moon. 2739 02:19:14.799 --> 02:19:17.280 As I believed that the heaven, we're part of the atmosphere, 2740 02:19:17.319 --> 02:19:21.719 you know, the firmament. And therefore, why must we think 2741 02:19:21.760 --> 02:19:24.879 about God in the same limited sense that modern day 2742 02:19:24.920 --> 02:19:28.200 Christians do, rather than in historic ways that Christians did, 2743 02:19:28.440 --> 02:19:30.440 such as, for instance, simply referring to God as an 2744 02:19:30.440 --> 02:19:34.879 alien and therefore might have different concepts of sexual behavior 2745 02:19:34.920 --> 02:19:37.319 than we do. And at the end of the day, 2746 02:19:37.879 --> 02:19:42.799 even if there is no sexual contact, is not sexual harassment? 2747 02:19:42.840 --> 02:19:46.000 Does it not also include in multiple definitions and cases 2748 02:19:46.000 --> 02:19:47.959 that have them processed in our course as well too, 2749 02:19:48.479 --> 02:19:53.040 simply unwanted sexual attention, even if that does not come 2750 02:19:53.040 --> 02:19:57.959 out to actual phallic or like phallax penetration of bagual 2751 02:19:58.000 --> 02:19:59.840 caavies or reproductive organs. 2752 02:20:00.639 --> 02:20:02.799 I think where you lose people, And John, I would 2753 02:20:02.879 --> 02:20:05.200 like you to give your side, because John's got a 2754 02:20:05.239 --> 02:20:06.959 very good take on this that I just happened not 2755 02:20:07.000 --> 02:20:09.719 to have bought into at this point. And I'm not 2756 02:20:09.760 --> 02:20:11.520 saying it's because I disagree with it. I'm just not 2757 02:20:11.600 --> 02:20:15.920 convinced yet. But I think the hiccup is always this 2758 02:20:16.120 --> 02:20:19.760 concept of sexual and my objection is from a legal 2759 02:20:19.760 --> 02:20:21.600 standpoint and from a practical standpoint. 2760 02:20:21.639 --> 02:20:22.879 I don't think this sells. 2761 02:20:23.040 --> 02:20:25.639 I don't think people hear this and go, oh, you've 2762 02:20:25.639 --> 02:20:27.760 got a point. I think they hear it and they 2763 02:20:27.799 --> 02:20:30.600 recoil from it and go, there was no rape. There 2764 02:20:30.639 --> 02:20:34.239 was no physical God, he magiced a baby into her, 2765 02:20:34.719 --> 02:20:38.559 and that under the law might be battery, right, it 2766 02:20:38.600 --> 02:20:41.239 could be pretty high degree of battery, but it's not 2767 02:20:41.399 --> 02:20:45.159 a sexual assault because there was no sexual desire. Now 2768 02:20:45.200 --> 02:20:47.959 you're coming along and saying, well, what if he was 2769 02:20:48.000 --> 02:20:51.479 an alien or thought of sex differently and all that stuff. Now, 2770 02:20:51.520 --> 02:20:54.799 you're really losing your audience right now. You're really doing 2771 02:20:54.840 --> 02:20:56.600 You're stacking a hat on a hat to try to 2772 02:20:56.639 --> 02:21:01.079 say I've got something cool here, when in reality, I 2773 02:21:01.079 --> 02:21:03.399 think most people will shy away from it. My argument 2774 02:21:03.479 --> 02:21:06.920 is just the legally correct and better based on people's 2775 02:21:06.959 --> 02:21:09.760 popular understanding of what God was and what that incident was, 2776 02:21:10.000 --> 02:21:12.399 is that it was a battery. But that's a very 2777 02:21:12.680 --> 02:21:15.040 you maybe a distinction without a difference. I don't know 2778 02:21:15.040 --> 02:21:16.120 what are your thoughts, John. 2779 02:21:16.120 --> 02:21:20.120 Well So the way, and I just want to point 2780 02:21:20.159 --> 02:21:23.840 this out that I've I've Grandma sorry cross exam. I've 2781 02:21:23.879 --> 02:21:28.719 I've heard your particular like objection to mine, and I've 2782 02:21:28.760 --> 02:21:32.360 taken that as a challenge to to Well, I mean 2783 02:21:32.360 --> 02:21:32.799 to we. 2784 02:21:33.600 --> 02:21:35.319 We had it back and forth. It was great and 2785 02:21:35.600 --> 02:21:37.920 like genuinely I asked him to flesh it out and 2786 02:21:37.920 --> 02:21:38.399 all this stuff. 2787 02:21:38.440 --> 02:21:39.840 I find it an interesting concept. 2788 02:21:40.200 --> 02:21:43.680 Yeah, So what I've done is I've synthesized a bunch 2789 02:21:43.799 --> 02:21:48.760 of scholars in the area of some of it advanced 2790 02:21:48.879 --> 02:21:54.000 like feminist literature concerning sexual assault and rape and all that, 2791 02:21:54.440 --> 02:21:57.200 and I've come up with this definition. And I've ran 2792 02:21:57.280 --> 02:22:00.799 this by doctor Ben who agrees that this is that 2793 02:22:00.840 --> 02:22:01.840 this would apply. 2794 02:22:01.680 --> 02:22:03.280 To their rape label. 2795 02:22:03.559 --> 02:22:06.600 And so my definition is, and I'd like to get 2796 02:22:07.159 --> 02:22:12.840 an ape's take on this, the imposition of sexual access 2797 02:22:12.920 --> 02:22:16.559 to another's body in a way that nullifies that person's 2798 02:22:16.600 --> 02:22:21.479 authority over their own embodied domain, transforming them from a 2799 02:22:21.479 --> 02:22:27.760 self governing subject into a sexual object within someone else's control. Now, 2800 02:22:27.799 --> 02:22:30.959 this sort of refocuses it to the harm that rape 2801 02:22:30.959 --> 02:22:33.520 does as opposed to the mechanism of rape, because I 2802 02:22:33.520 --> 02:22:36.879 don't think that the mechanism is necessarily important. It's the 2803 02:22:37.000 --> 02:22:40.079 harm that is caused, and it's the controlling of sexual 2804 02:22:40.120 --> 02:22:43.319 access to someone's body and all that. 2805 02:22:43.399 --> 02:22:44.760 Oh, what are your thoughts there? Abe? 2806 02:22:45.959 --> 02:22:48.760 I completely agree. I find that, as with law of 2807 02:22:48.760 --> 02:22:52.239 semis theory, that a lot of people have a misinterpretation 2808 02:22:52.520 --> 02:22:57.760 of what sexual assault actually entails, and that includes more 2809 02:22:57.799 --> 02:23:00.200 of a loss of the tommy loss of power then 2810 02:23:00.280 --> 02:23:03.879 it does simply the mechanism. So, for instance, when I 2811 02:23:03.920 --> 02:23:07.600 was fifteen years old and being messaged inappropriate depicts and 2812 02:23:07.639 --> 02:23:12.040 stuff like that by people in authority over me, was 2813 02:23:12.079 --> 02:23:15.360 that not a bit of sexual assault? Not only was 2814 02:23:15.399 --> 02:23:18.200 I minor, which, of course, the mother Mary of God 2815 02:23:18.399 --> 02:23:22.159 was supposedly according to the earliest Christians approximate between the 2816 02:23:22.399 --> 02:23:26.520 ages of twelve fourteen years old. But also we also 2817 02:23:26.559 --> 02:23:29.559 have other cases well too where sexual conduct is not given. 2818 02:23:29.840 --> 02:23:35.239 For instance, there's cases of artificial insemination where doctors use 2819 02:23:35.280 --> 02:23:38.680 their place of authority to artificially inseemate with their own 2820 02:23:38.840 --> 02:23:41.600 semen even if they do not actually have sallace penetration. 2821 02:23:41.719 --> 02:23:43.200 I think it's more that a. 2822 02:23:43.239 --> 02:23:45.559 Lot of that is argument right there. 2823 02:23:46.280 --> 02:23:48.959 Yeah, I think that it does not have to be 2824 02:23:49.200 --> 02:23:51.959 about the mechanism because law of are laws, and our 2825 02:23:52.000 --> 02:23:55.360 famous discourse has not been about simply that has to 2826 02:23:55.399 --> 02:23:58.840 include actual penetration. That's why I was reading out to 2827 02:23:58.920 --> 02:24:01.280 actit sexual assault definition which does. 2828 02:24:01.159 --> 02:24:01.760 Not include it. 2829 02:24:02.239 --> 02:24:05.200 Correct, And you're going to find different degrees, but the 2830 02:24:05.280 --> 02:24:10.319 commonality that people will impose upon that is this concept 2831 02:24:10.360 --> 02:24:14.639 of carnality, of desire, of sexual interest and then some 2832 02:24:14.719 --> 02:24:17.479 sort of overt act. Right that's typically Now you can 2833 02:24:17.600 --> 02:24:21.680 have some fourth degree sexual assault where you don't have 2834 02:24:21.760 --> 02:24:25.719 to prove some sort of sexual intent possibly, and those 2835 02:24:25.760 --> 02:24:28.520 are usually prescribed out like hey, you're a teacher in 2836 02:24:28.600 --> 02:24:31.120 a school and they're like they're in your care and 2837 02:24:31.159 --> 02:24:33.520 then you touch this thing. You might not have to 2838 02:24:33.559 --> 02:24:37.200 prove intent there like this carnality concept, but it is 2839 02:24:37.280 --> 02:24:40.760 often part of especially the more advanced ones, and certainly 2840 02:24:40.840 --> 02:24:44.799 anything that the average person would call rape. When you 2841 02:24:44.840 --> 02:24:46.639 go look at the law, at least in Maryland that's 2842 02:24:46.639 --> 02:24:49.639 where I practice, you're going to have these concepts of intent, 2843 02:24:49.959 --> 02:24:53.840 sexual desire, carnality. They use all sorts of different words 2844 02:24:53.879 --> 02:24:58.479 to differentiate it from I cut you open and put 2845 02:24:58.520 --> 02:25:01.559 a fertilized egg in you and I closed you back up. 2846 02:25:01.920 --> 02:25:05.479 That's aggravated assault, but I wasn't. There was nothing sexual 2847 02:25:05.479 --> 02:25:07.879 about it in the legal sense. Now it had to 2848 02:25:07.959 --> 02:25:10.760 do with like your gender. Maybe, so it might be 2849 02:25:10.959 --> 02:25:14.079 sexual in the biological sense, but in the legal sense 2850 02:25:14.120 --> 02:25:17.239 that was just like I cut you open, I put 2851 02:25:17.239 --> 02:25:19.360 a lego in your uterus, versus I cut you open, 2852 02:25:19.399 --> 02:25:22.040 I put a fertilized egg in your uterus. Those are 2853 02:25:22.040 --> 02:25:25.959 both just aggravated assault, you know. And again this is 2854 02:25:26.000 --> 02:25:28.639 me coming at it from a lawyer. Yeah, that's half 2855 02:25:28.680 --> 02:25:31.319 of my objection. But the other half is, I don't 2856 02:25:31.319 --> 02:25:33.360 think it wins you any arguments. 2857 02:25:33.000 --> 02:25:34.120 To say rape. 2858 02:25:34.200 --> 02:25:37.600 I think assault or battery and things is it is 2859 02:25:37.639 --> 02:25:42.440 a softer, more convincing argument that doesn't shut down brains immediately. 2860 02:25:42.479 --> 02:25:44.959 But I agree that it's an interesting statement. 2861 02:25:44.959 --> 02:25:48.760 Go ahead, John, Sorry, Well, I mean I was I 2862 02:25:48.760 --> 02:25:50.280 guess I was going to say that I think that 2863 02:25:50.360 --> 02:25:52.719 it is a difference in what were and what we're 2864 02:25:52.719 --> 02:25:55.719 classifying as sexual, because yeah. 2865 02:25:55.680 --> 02:26:00.079 Maybe correct me if I'm wrong, they're a cross. But 2866 02:26:00.120 --> 02:26:02.479 it seemed to me like when you were describing sexual 2867 02:26:03.280 --> 02:26:07.520 you were describing it as like a attraction, like there 2868 02:26:07.559 --> 02:26:09.920 was some kind of attraction that was behind it. 2869 02:26:10.600 --> 02:26:12.959 That is at sort of the medium levels. Typically, like 2870 02:26:13.000 --> 02:26:17.440 in Maryland, if you do vaginal penetration against their will, 2871 02:26:17.639 --> 02:26:21.680 that's rape, right, that's the definition of like first degree rape. 2872 02:26:21.719 --> 02:26:24.000 I don't think there's any sort of carnality in it, 2873 02:26:24.040 --> 02:26:26.159 but there might be a version of it, a first 2874 02:26:26.159 --> 02:26:29.120 degree rape that's like you know, sub item three. 2875 02:26:29.360 --> 02:26:30.799 I can look it up and all that stuff and 2876 02:26:30.799 --> 02:26:31.600 get back to you on that. 2877 02:26:31.639 --> 02:26:37.079 But the primary usually first degree is forced what we 2878 02:26:37.120 --> 02:26:41.799 would consider sex, vaginal penetration. That's rape. But then there's 2879 02:26:41.840 --> 02:26:45.639 these degrees. There's first seconds, third degree rape, first second, third, 2880 02:26:45.719 --> 02:26:48.840 fourth degree sexual assault, and then there's attempted in all 2881 02:26:48.879 --> 02:26:52.040 of those and each of them have multiple sub sections. 2882 02:26:52.040 --> 02:26:56.399 So it is something that legislators have spent hundreds of 2883 02:26:56.479 --> 02:26:59.680 years on. For example, this is you probably have this 2884 02:26:59.719 --> 02:27:02.280 in your paper. You seem very well researched. But another 2885 02:27:02.399 --> 02:27:07.000 interesting stat is that the FBI didn't didn't classify male 2886 02:27:07.079 --> 02:27:11.000 rape as rape until like the nineteen seventies, even though 2887 02:27:11.000 --> 02:27:13.159 it fit the definition, and we had to go back 2888 02:27:13.200 --> 02:27:15.079 and look at all of these things. So add that 2889 02:27:15.120 --> 02:27:17.719 to your paper because that's interesting. But yeah, if you 2890 02:27:17.760 --> 02:27:19.520 go and look at all of them and you just 2891 02:27:19.559 --> 02:27:23.159 google for your state, you know, rape criminal law definition, 2892 02:27:23.280 --> 02:27:26.120 you'll get into all of these and the ones that 2893 02:27:26.159 --> 02:27:29.360 are not like the obvious rape, the one that people 2894 02:27:29.399 --> 02:27:32.440 think of, those tend to have you touch to the 2895 02:27:32.479 --> 02:27:37.079 person with some sort of mal intent. There's an intent 2896 02:27:37.440 --> 02:27:40.040 like they don't want people getting arrested because I accidentally 2897 02:27:40.120 --> 02:27:43.280 brushed up against somebody, Right, there is this intent element 2898 02:27:43.319 --> 02:27:43.760 you need to. 2899 02:27:43.719 --> 02:27:45.120 Prove as a prosecutor. 2900 02:27:45.399 --> 02:27:47.559 You can't just have somebody bump into you on the 2901 02:27:47.600 --> 02:27:49.879 subway and say, oh, I was sexually assaulted because you 2902 02:27:49.879 --> 02:27:51.959 happen to hit my breast or my vagina or whatever 2903 02:27:52.239 --> 02:27:55.200 or penis, whatever whichever way it's going. So there are 2904 02:27:55.239 --> 02:27:58.639 these intents, and those intents tend to have these this 2905 02:27:58.840 --> 02:28:01.440 concept like how do you fine intent? Like if I 2906 02:28:01.559 --> 02:28:05.399 just intended to touch you there, but I didn't do 2907 02:28:05.520 --> 02:28:08.920 it for some sort of sexual gratification or carnal reasoning, 2908 02:28:09.600 --> 02:28:13.639 my legislature might classify that as aggravated assault but not sexual. 2909 02:28:13.680 --> 02:28:15.559 Whereas if I can prove that it was done for 2910 02:28:15.600 --> 02:28:18.879 these reasonings out of sexual gratification reasonings, now all of 2911 02:28:19.120 --> 02:28:22.959 it's sexual assault. Other jurisdictions might draw the line elsewhere. 2912 02:28:23.000 --> 02:28:26.120 So I think that's an interesting study. Is comparative sexual 2913 02:28:26.120 --> 02:28:32.000 assault laws across jurisdictions in Jodeo Christian influenced countries? 2914 02:28:33.040 --> 02:28:35.239 Thanks? So, may I bring you back to my original question? 2915 02:28:36.440 --> 02:28:39.440 Is it possible that due to the heavy focus on 2916 02:28:39.639 --> 02:28:43.000 the Book of God wanting humans to love him above 2917 02:28:43.079 --> 02:28:46.520 all else and calling the worship of other gods adultery 2918 02:28:46.520 --> 02:28:50.799 and afforing and viewing it as that even making threats 2919 02:28:50.799 --> 02:28:53.159 of sexual violence quite frankly speaking, saying he would lift 2920 02:28:53.239 --> 02:28:56.280 up the skirts of Israel and other threats that quite 2921 02:28:56.280 --> 02:29:00.319 frankly seem like marital rates, is there not a caste 2922 02:29:00.319 --> 02:29:03.639 to be made that the Bogo God has shown intent. 2923 02:29:05.760 --> 02:29:10.879 I don't think so, because I don't believe there's a god. Now, 2924 02:29:11.000 --> 02:29:13.799 if we get past that I think. I think the 2925 02:29:13.840 --> 02:29:18.559 God character, well, it depends the answer I would give, 2926 02:29:18.680 --> 02:29:21.319 has layers that are related to Like I don't believe 2927 02:29:21.360 --> 02:29:24.879 on God. Do I agree that the people who wrote 2928 02:29:24.879 --> 02:29:28.440 those passages had sex on their mind one hundred percent. 2929 02:29:28.520 --> 02:29:30.559 That's how they dealt with the world. I think if 2930 02:29:30.559 --> 02:29:34.719 you study history, it's all about property and sex. That's 2931 02:29:34.840 --> 02:29:38.079 really all it's about. So that's the analogies they had. 2932 02:29:38.440 --> 02:29:42.719 Now you then have to go further and say, people 2933 02:29:42.840 --> 02:29:45.799 take this to believe it is sexual in the same 2934 02:29:45.840 --> 02:29:48.959 way that we classify sex as a crime in certain 2935 02:29:49.000 --> 02:29:51.280 situations in our law, and I think that's a. 2936 02:29:51.200 --> 02:29:51.840 Bit of a leap. 2937 02:29:52.639 --> 02:29:54.639 I think a lot of people will say that symbolic 2938 02:29:54.879 --> 02:29:56.799 it wasn't meant to be literal. We hear that all 2939 02:29:56.799 --> 02:30:00.280 the time on the show. You'd have a lot of 2940 02:30:00.719 --> 02:30:04.719 work to do to convince somebody that, because there's all 2941 02:30:04.719 --> 02:30:08.559 this symbology in the Bible about worshiping another God, is 2942 02:30:08.760 --> 02:30:12.079 like you're cheating on me. To then turn around and say, therefore, 2943 02:30:12.159 --> 02:30:15.799 I should apply modern sexual assault laws to you a believer. 2944 02:30:17.840 --> 02:30:21.879 You know, I'm wondering if there's because you know, hearing 2945 02:30:21.879 --> 02:30:26.040 it described that way, there across it. Just it really 2946 02:30:26.120 --> 02:30:31.639 reminds me of the power dynamics contained within pedophilic you 2947 02:30:31.639 --> 02:30:36.719 know situations, because like you know, the because you know, 2948 02:30:36.760 --> 02:30:39.879 biggots all the time when I try to portray pedophilias 2949 02:30:40.200 --> 02:30:44.000 as sometimes homosexual and right, and that's not at all 2950 02:30:44.079 --> 02:30:47.840 what it is, because the main thing about the like 2951 02:30:47.879 --> 02:30:52.760 a mind of a pedophile is the imposition of control 2952 02:30:52.840 --> 02:30:56.000 and power over another individual. It's less about like the 2953 02:30:56.200 --> 02:31:00.239 sexual attraction that they have to any specific like sex 2954 02:31:00.319 --> 02:31:03.319 or gender. It's more about the power that they can 2955 02:31:03.360 --> 02:31:05.959 exert over an individual and everything. And I'm wondering if 2956 02:31:05.959 --> 02:31:10.399 there's some kind of like you know, connection there, which 2957 02:31:10.440 --> 02:31:12.760 I don't know if that's if you've considered that at 2958 02:31:12.760 --> 02:31:15.079 all their eve at all. 2959 02:31:15.159 --> 02:31:16.000 But I have. 2960 02:31:17.479 --> 02:31:21.440 Made a comment earlier or right, sorry about interrupting there. 2961 02:31:21.600 --> 02:31:24.559 I have a party made a comment earlier about how 2962 02:31:24.719 --> 02:31:27.959 out of an eve we're not even aware to be ashamed. 2963 02:31:29.000 --> 02:31:31.680 That seems like if you have to eat a medication, 2964 02:31:32.040 --> 02:31:35.920 well say pharmacopeia like witchcraft, where if you take a 2965 02:31:35.959 --> 02:31:41.200 certain purbal or fruit medicine that gives you a specific power, 2966 02:31:41.280 --> 02:31:44.000 which is what the fruit of the tree of knowledge, 2967 02:31:44.639 --> 02:31:46.520 the fruit of the tree of Good, of knowledge of 2968 02:31:46.520 --> 02:31:48.840 good and evil, appears to be in the Garden of Eden, 2969 02:31:49.200 --> 02:31:51.600 where they have to consume this in order to even 2970 02:31:51.639 --> 02:31:54.799 be aware that they are walking around naked, in order 2971 02:31:54.799 --> 02:31:58.479 to be ashamed of themselves. They obviously have a mentality 2972 02:31:58.760 --> 02:32:03.159 far below the biblical God, even simply to gain knowledge 2973 02:32:03.280 --> 02:32:06.360 that cycal God has. But that's not even just the 2974 02:32:06.399 --> 02:32:09.959 mental differences. There's also the difference of age gaps. How 2975 02:32:10.079 --> 02:32:13.680 in the world can humans who reach max. One hundred 2976 02:32:13.760 --> 02:32:16.239 years or if you believe the Bible, nine hundred years, 2977 02:32:16.680 --> 02:32:20.920 how can we ever approach a God who supposedly, according 2978 02:32:20.959 --> 02:32:23.200 to the Bible, is your somewhere between six thousand years 2979 02:32:23.200 --> 02:32:26.040 old two constantly billions of years old, if you believe 2980 02:32:26.079 --> 02:32:28.760 that he's existed since the Big Thing? How can you 2981 02:32:28.760 --> 02:32:32.319 ever approach that level of mentality of difference, especially when 2982 02:32:32.600 --> 02:32:35.520 one is omniscient and one is limited to a mortal 2983 02:32:35.600 --> 02:32:39.680 life that does not have any capacity to have omniscients. 2984 02:32:40.000 --> 02:32:44.079 Yeah, no, yeah, I definitely think that that's that's a 2985 02:32:44.159 --> 02:32:49.440 concerning like connection there between the two, and I think 2986 02:32:49.440 --> 02:32:51.319 that you're right on the money as far as all 2987 02:32:51.360 --> 02:32:54.719 that goes. Of course, I know that you know cross 2988 02:32:54.760 --> 02:32:57.079 here is going to disagree with the both of us 2989 02:32:57.479 --> 02:33:01.120 on you know, the God's grap being age towards Mary. 2990 02:33:01.239 --> 02:33:04.559 But but yeah, I mean I think that there's a 2991 02:33:04.600 --> 02:33:07.719 lot of connections, uh, you know, in the Bible between 2992 02:33:07.799 --> 02:33:11.079 the sexual nature that God is portrayed in and his 2993 02:33:11.159 --> 02:33:14.200 relationship with human beings in general. So I think that 2994 02:33:14.319 --> 02:33:16.360 I think you got a good paper, a good idea there. 2995 02:33:16.399 --> 02:33:19.000 And I'm not surprised that you're getting pushed back from 2996 02:33:19.280 --> 02:33:20.200 from university. 2997 02:33:20.520 --> 02:33:20.840 Uh. 2998 02:33:20.920 --> 02:33:25.000 You know, people when you whenever you question the long 2999 02:33:25.079 --> 02:33:26.840 standing like ideas. 3000 02:33:26.399 --> 02:33:28.000 Like that, you're always going to get pushed back. 3001 02:33:28.040 --> 02:33:31.360 I hope that, uh, you know, you that you stay 3002 02:33:31.399 --> 02:33:34.319 strong in that and you push forward with it and 3003 02:33:34.319 --> 02:33:37.639 and don't let them, you know, intimidate you into silence, 3004 02:33:37.639 --> 02:33:41.920 because I know that that can happen sometimes. But but yeah, 3005 02:33:42.000 --> 02:33:43.559 I think that you're on a good track. 3006 02:33:43.399 --> 02:33:49.079 There, thank you. I agree. I think that despite my objections, uh, 3007 02:33:49.680 --> 02:33:53.920 you know, the research you've done, your knowledge is obviously 3008 02:33:54.040 --> 02:33:56.479 very impressive and I would continue to pull that thread 3009 02:33:56.479 --> 02:33:58.760 and see where it takes you. I am a where 3010 02:33:58.760 --> 02:34:01.239 the rubber hits the road type of That doesn't mean 3011 02:34:01.399 --> 02:34:05.120 I don't like academic h papers. I read them all 3012 02:34:05.120 --> 02:34:09.000 the time, but I always want the paper to say, therefore, 3013 02:34:09.680 --> 02:34:13.680 society should do X, and if that X is, you know, 3014 02:34:13.719 --> 02:34:17.879 there's this language in the Bible about sexuality, a whole 3015 02:34:17.879 --> 02:34:22.520 bunch of studies about sexuality. Therefore, we should prosecute Christians 3016 02:34:22.559 --> 02:34:25.959 for sexual assault. If that's the there for, I think 3017 02:34:26.040 --> 02:34:28.680 you're not You're gonna not going to convince anybody, because 3018 02:34:28.680 --> 02:34:30.959 I wouldn't vote for convicting Christians. 3019 02:34:30.559 --> 02:34:34.360 Of sexual assault for because they were Christian. 3020 02:34:34.520 --> 02:34:38.239 You know, I think it's an interesting hypothetical, like what 3021 02:34:38.399 --> 02:34:42.000 if we did it? But I would try to if 3022 02:34:42.040 --> 02:34:44.319 that is indeed the conclusion, I would try to buttress 3023 02:34:44.360 --> 02:34:49.799 that with some other proposed legislation that would be would 3024 02:34:50.200 --> 02:34:53.760 even if the proposal is, hey, simply introducing this legislation 3025 02:34:53.799 --> 02:34:56.559 would create a discussion that would be helpful in moving 3026 02:34:56.559 --> 02:34:56.959 the ball. 3027 02:34:57.280 --> 02:34:58.319 That would be an interesting thing. 3028 02:35:00.200 --> 02:35:00.440 There. 3029 02:35:00.680 --> 02:35:03.719 Yeah, it's more of a hypothetical. And the same way 3030 02:35:03.799 --> 02:35:07.399 that Hector Ablos discusses the idea of religious violence and 3031 02:35:07.440 --> 02:35:11.639 how to approach it, by redefining this hesitance that people 3032 02:35:11.680 --> 02:35:15.079 have to even label a very clear instance of religious 3033 02:35:15.120 --> 02:35:18.280 violence as religious violence. It's instead being like, all right, 3034 02:35:18.319 --> 02:35:21.239 but how about we actually label us as a problematic 3035 02:35:21.360 --> 02:35:22.280 matter in the first place. 3036 02:35:22.479 --> 02:35:26.120 Yeah, no, I totally agree, saying you know, the headline 3037 02:35:26.159 --> 02:35:30.319 of Mary was Raped is serves that purpose tremendously. I 3038 02:35:30.360 --> 02:35:32.399 always worry about is it going to shut people down 3039 02:35:32.399 --> 02:35:35.520 too early? Right, That's why I say, well, wait a second, 3040 02:35:35.639 --> 02:35:37.920 you know, let's slow, let's use a slightly different term. 3041 02:35:37.959 --> 02:35:41.639 But I think our goals are the same. Yes, all right, 3042 02:35:42.680 --> 02:35:44.239 thank you so much for your time today. This was 3043 02:35:44.280 --> 02:35:46.520 an excellent call to end on. It's one of the 3044 02:35:46.559 --> 02:35:48.840 most unique calls I've ever gotten doing this. 3045 02:35:49.600 --> 02:35:49.959 Yeah. 3046 02:35:49.959 --> 02:35:52.440 Please, thank you so much, ye for calling in. 3047 02:35:52.600 --> 02:35:55.399 Yeah, please please call back or send us an email 3048 02:35:55.399 --> 02:35:57.040 and update us as to how it's going. And if 3049 02:35:57.040 --> 02:35:58.879 you do get published, please let us know because I'd 3050 02:35:58.920 --> 02:36:01.319 love to see I can get behind the paywall and 3051 02:36:01.479 --> 02:36:09.600 get a copy. Don't get me started on academic paywalls. 3052 02:36:09.799 --> 02:36:12.920 Yes, thank you so much for your time, Domina for 3053 02:36:13.159 --> 02:36:15.000 all Thank you so much for your time. 3054 02:36:15.319 --> 02:36:17.520 Thank you, thanks a lot. I appreciate it. 3055 02:36:18.000 --> 02:36:20.360 Well, godless, I think we got through it. It was 3056 02:36:20.559 --> 02:36:22.600 longer than I expected. We had a lot of calls. 3057 02:36:22.639 --> 02:36:25.680 I really appreciate you, uh your insights, especially on that 3058 02:36:25.760 --> 02:36:27.600 last one. I knew that would be right up your alley. 3059 02:36:28.280 --> 02:36:28.319 No. 3060 02:36:28.639 --> 02:36:31.239 Yeah, And I know that you're coming in from a 3061 02:36:31.319 --> 02:36:35.159 legal perspective, and I know that there's a vast difference there. 3062 02:36:35.200 --> 02:36:38.959 And you know, my wife, she speaks legaliese and so 3063 02:36:39.200 --> 02:36:42.280 I usually have to run things by her, and and 3064 02:36:42.440 --> 02:36:44.719 like you know, as to whether or not I can 3065 02:36:44.799 --> 02:36:46.239 say this or that, like. 3066 02:36:47.000 --> 02:36:48.079 It's technically correct. 3067 02:36:48.120 --> 02:36:50.000 You know, I always want to be technically correct, and 3068 02:36:50.079 --> 02:36:52.520 so that's something that I always have to kind of 3069 02:36:52.600 --> 02:36:56.879 keep in mind. So, uh but but yeah. 3070 02:36:56.760 --> 02:37:00.000 I I agree, it's it's I want to be technically correct. 3071 02:37:00.120 --> 02:37:02.879 But I also, like I said, I'm this rubber hits 3072 02:37:02.879 --> 02:37:04.600 the road guy, And I'm like, if you get up 3073 02:37:04.600 --> 02:37:07.040 on stage, if you're out in the parking lot, you 3074 02:37:07.079 --> 02:37:10.000 say Mary was raped, and you know, prove me wrong. 3075 02:37:10.600 --> 02:37:12.239 Maybe you'll get some people to drop by. 3076 02:37:12.639 --> 02:37:16.920 But if you say, you know, God violated Mary's rights, 3077 02:37:17.280 --> 02:37:18.920 let's talk about that, then you'll get I think a 3078 02:37:18.959 --> 02:37:21.959 bigger audience is willing to actually listen to that. That's 3079 02:37:22.040 --> 02:37:26.559 just the only point I was making. But I'm wrong 3080 02:37:26.600 --> 02:37:28.680 about things all the time, and that maybe I'm not 3081 02:37:28.719 --> 02:37:31.120 a politician, and I don't know what plays. I've seen 3082 02:37:31.159 --> 02:37:34.360 politicians get elected that do some crazy shit, as we 3083 02:37:34.440 --> 02:37:34.959 say lately. 3084 02:37:35.760 --> 02:37:40.879 Well, I will admit that the Mary was great thing. Well, 3085 02:37:41.360 --> 02:37:44.360 I'm one hundred percent behind that, like I will that's 3086 02:37:44.399 --> 02:37:47.760 a hill that I will definitely die on. Sure, but 3087 02:37:48.159 --> 02:37:51.399 I will admit that because of the reception that it gets. 3088 02:37:51.760 --> 02:37:54.840 I usually run with it, because of the fact that 3089 02:37:55.000 --> 02:37:58.719 it will cause people to be like, yeah, it's they 3090 02:37:58.760 --> 02:38:01.159 want to argue with it so much, like no, no, 3091 02:38:01.360 --> 02:38:04.920 And like even if I went with your version of it, 3092 02:38:04.959 --> 02:38:07.360 they would still have a problem because they're like, oh, 3093 02:38:07.399 --> 02:38:10.079 but she agreed that that was fine. 3094 02:38:10.239 --> 02:38:12.000 It's like, no, maybe you should read that again. 3095 02:38:12.079 --> 02:38:16.920 Becaueah, they don't understand the difference between acquiescing and giving consent. 3096 02:38:17.280 --> 02:38:19.040 And yes, it's crazy. 3097 02:38:19.120 --> 02:38:21.200 I actually went there when you were talking about this 3098 02:38:21.280 --> 02:38:23.120 the first time I heard you propose it. I went 3099 02:38:23.120 --> 02:38:24.840 and did a bunch of research and made up some 3100 02:38:24.920 --> 02:38:29.079 documents about definitions of different degrees, and went and read 3101 02:38:29.079 --> 02:38:30.799 the passages in the Bible, and then I went and 3102 02:38:30.920 --> 02:38:35.079 read apologetic defenses of that impregnation and all of that. 3103 02:38:35.399 --> 02:38:38.440 It's a fascinating topic and I really do think it's 3104 02:38:38.600 --> 02:38:40.959 it's something we should all pursue as some sort of 3105 02:38:41.440 --> 02:38:43.959 have that sort of thing ready to pull out of 3106 02:38:43.959 --> 02:38:46.520 our belts at an even time, because there is a whole, 3107 02:38:47.159 --> 02:38:49.600 there's a there is a mental somersault that people have 3108 02:38:49.639 --> 02:38:52.680 to do to defend it, which is, well, she couldn't 3109 02:38:52.719 --> 02:38:55.200 resist and she didn't want to resist because it was God. 3110 02:38:55.879 --> 02:38:56.639 That sort of thing. 3111 02:38:56.799 --> 02:38:58.159 Yeah, the thing that. 3112 02:38:58.120 --> 02:39:00.760 Gets me every it seems like every time, at least 3113 02:39:00.799 --> 02:39:04.559 every stream where that comes up, you get, you gets. 3114 02:39:04.319 --> 02:39:09.879 Somebody that's like, but she liked it. No, why are 3115 02:39:09.920 --> 02:39:10.600 you gonna meet that? 3116 02:39:11.440 --> 02:39:11.639 Hey? 3117 02:39:11.680 --> 02:39:14.000 You know what's end on a super chat? Shall we? 3118 02:39:14.000 --> 02:39:14.159 Oh? 3119 02:39:14.200 --> 02:39:15.399 Yeah, let's end on a super chat? 3120 02:39:15.479 --> 02:39:18.120 But also I think that we've got uh don't we've 3121 02:39:18.120 --> 02:39:19.319 gotta we've got a backup. 3122 02:39:19.399 --> 02:39:21.959 We have to bring Jamie on. Yes, so let's uh, 3123 02:39:22.000 --> 02:39:24.000 why don't we bring Jamie on and read the super 3124 02:39:24.079 --> 02:39:26.719 chat at him and then ask him he's currently oh. 3125 02:39:26.600 --> 02:39:29.600 My god, thirty five right now? Hey, what's up there? 3126 02:39:29.680 --> 02:39:29.959 Jamie? 3127 02:39:30.000 --> 02:39:30.479 Are you doing? 3128 02:39:33.840 --> 02:39:34.000 So? 3129 02:39:34.040 --> 02:39:37.600 This is this is my anti irrationality helmet and my 3130 02:39:39.079 --> 02:39:41.920 straight pipe to this tank of cope you might have. 3131 02:39:43.040 --> 02:39:46.319 How did it work? And I tell I have to 3132 02:39:46.360 --> 02:39:53.200 tell viewers have multiple hold on hold on, Jamie, He's. 3133 02:39:52.920 --> 02:39:53.520 Got it, my guy. 3134 02:39:54.399 --> 02:39:56.280 When we are on we can see the main feed, 3135 02:39:56.319 --> 02:39:58.520 you see, and then we see cameras for each participant. 3136 02:39:59.000 --> 02:40:01.799 Jamie has been s thing and that thing for at 3137 02:40:01.920 --> 02:40:03.360 least an hour, just. 3138 02:40:03.239 --> 02:40:07.959 For the jokes. I am a weirdo that way, but 3139 02:40:08.079 --> 02:40:10.280 I was putting it on and taking off as a 3140 02:40:10.360 --> 02:40:13.120 kind of visual commentary on some of the calls. 3141 02:40:14.959 --> 02:40:16.559 The more I put. 3142 02:40:16.319 --> 02:40:19.760 My mask and visor on, the less I was getting 3143 02:40:19.799 --> 02:40:23.639 on board with some of the people. Your first caller, 3144 02:40:24.000 --> 02:40:27.840 the vibesman, just vibes and vibes and vibes, and I'm like, 3145 02:40:28.840 --> 02:40:31.360 cool for you, cool story, bro, But if you can't 3146 02:40:31.440 --> 02:40:35.360 provide any kind of evidence of any kind, it's not 3147 02:40:35.399 --> 02:40:38.600 going to be very convincing to anybody, let alone us 3148 02:40:38.639 --> 02:40:44.239 who are skeptics. Mohammed, I was watching Truth Wanted early. 3149 02:40:44.360 --> 02:40:46.920 He called into that, and he was just as odious 3150 02:40:47.159 --> 02:40:50.000 and that you cut it off at the right time 3151 02:40:50.200 --> 02:40:54.040 like that, like, oh, it's no problem marrying a nine 3152 02:40:54.079 --> 02:40:57.159 year old. It's like divine divine command theory all the 3153 02:40:57.159 --> 02:40:59.319 way up, all the way up and down the line. 3154 02:41:00.559 --> 02:41:01.120 And then. 3155 02:41:02.600 --> 02:41:09.280 The penultimate caller talking about trying to I'm almost getting confused. 3156 02:41:09.319 --> 02:41:12.760 It was like a it almost becomes static in my head, 3157 02:41:12.879 --> 02:41:15.600 so many different arguments about how he's going to go 3158 02:41:15.639 --> 02:41:21.520 about believing in these god and justifying things, and I 3159 02:41:21.559 --> 02:41:24.040 apologize it just it all kind of got blasted out 3160 02:41:24.079 --> 02:41:24.520 of my head. 3161 02:41:24.760 --> 02:41:27.000 Yeah, there were a couple in there. We had the 3162 02:41:27.120 --> 02:41:29.479 person who was the Catholic heretic who didn't really want 3163 02:41:29.479 --> 02:41:32.760 to talk out about why and was I think unfamiliar 3164 02:41:32.799 --> 02:41:34.760 with some of the passages we were talking about. But 3165 02:41:34.760 --> 02:41:37.239 they before that was the one that was I thought 3166 02:41:37.280 --> 02:41:40.239 he started out really great. He had some problems with 3167 02:41:40.319 --> 02:41:43.719 us interrupting and asking questions, but it was a big 3168 02:41:43.799 --> 02:41:46.200 giant circle and we ended up back where we started out. 3169 02:41:46.280 --> 02:41:48.000 Yeah, and then the final caller. 3170 02:41:48.799 --> 02:41:53.959 While I again I would never deign to even close 3171 02:41:54.079 --> 02:42:02.040 to minimize the horrific impact of sexual and violence against 3172 02:42:02.799 --> 02:42:08.959 sexual violence against people, women and children especially, I don't 3173 02:42:09.000 --> 02:42:15.879 cancel with this as a rhetorical tool against actual believers. 3174 02:42:16.760 --> 02:42:21.719 UM actually in them about the technicalities around was it 3175 02:42:21.840 --> 02:42:25.639 rape or not? I think maybe somewhat obfuscated. I put 3176 02:42:25.639 --> 02:42:28.159 it kind of in the same category of like Jesus 3177 02:42:28.200 --> 02:42:31.719 was female, you know, because only one set of DNA 3178 02:42:31.959 --> 02:42:35.719 was in that Zigo from his mum, so he's probably 3179 02:42:35.760 --> 02:42:38.920 got Ovarias and I'm like that great thought experiment, write 3180 02:42:38.920 --> 02:42:42.000 a paper and it's fantastic. It does mean no good 3181 02:42:42.000 --> 02:42:47.760 because I want I am like you ge as, I'm across. 3182 02:42:48.399 --> 02:42:49.840 I'm a brother hits the road kind of guy. 3183 02:42:49.920 --> 02:42:56.120 I'm also stupid, so I need like simple actionable despite 3184 02:42:56.159 --> 02:42:59.520 the voice, I had simple actionable arguments that I can 3185 02:42:59.559 --> 02:43:03.879 just go, let's get down to brass tax. God violated 3186 02:43:03.920 --> 02:43:09.319 this woman's body autonomy. However you slice it, is that okay. 3187 02:43:09.440 --> 02:43:10.920 Yeah, that's kind of where I am. 3188 02:43:10.920 --> 02:43:13.079 I agree. I think it's a great, great topic and 3189 02:43:13.159 --> 02:43:14.920 what either way, go ahead, John Well, I. 3190 02:43:14.879 --> 02:43:17.879 Was gonna say, I don't think that the apologetic response 3191 02:43:17.920 --> 02:43:21.360 though to that is any different than me pointing out 3192 02:43:21.440 --> 02:43:24.600 that it was it was rape, right, Like, I don't 3193 02:43:24.600 --> 02:43:27.479 think that. I think that regardless of how you package it, 3194 02:43:27.600 --> 02:43:29.520 there's still going to be like nah. 3195 02:43:29.600 --> 02:43:33.680 She she, I totally agree. And there's two approaches here. 3196 02:43:33.719 --> 02:43:36.920 There's this is I don't mean this in a negative way, 3197 02:43:36.920 --> 02:43:40.040 but there's the clickbaity t title value of it, of 3198 02:43:40.079 --> 02:43:42.399 me putting up the table that says God raped Mary 3199 02:43:42.479 --> 02:43:45.200 changed my mind. There's that attention grabbing, and I think 3200 02:43:45.200 --> 02:43:51.479 that serves a purpose. And then there's the the efficiens 3201 02:43:51.799 --> 02:43:54.840 argument of if I say, if I don't use the 3202 02:43:54.840 --> 02:44:00.360 word rape, and I say battered or assaulted against her will, 3203 02:44:00.479 --> 02:44:04.600 I save myself three four five minutes of arguing about 3204 02:44:04.680 --> 02:44:07.600 vaginal penetration with a penis right, I get that out 3205 02:44:07.600 --> 02:44:09.280 of the way, and I just say, he put a 3206 02:44:09.319 --> 02:44:11.959 baby in her. She couldn't have consented. Look at the 3207 02:44:12.000 --> 02:44:15.399 power dynamic. That's battery, right, And I sort of get 3208 02:44:15.440 --> 02:44:19.200 to the point of he's doing this without her consent. 3209 02:44:19.319 --> 02:44:21.399 That to me is the prime, the ultimate. 3210 02:44:21.920 --> 02:44:23.319 We can get to the super chat here. 3211 02:44:23.319 --> 02:44:24.680 And to say, I don't mean to get off too 3212 02:44:24.760 --> 02:44:26.760 much into the weeds on this, but I think that 3213 02:44:26.799 --> 02:44:29.840 you're going to encounter the same kind of definitional argument 3214 02:44:29.920 --> 02:44:33.799 or tug of war with battery, because they're not going 3215 02:44:33.879 --> 02:44:38.639 to appreciate the idea of God engaging in battery with 3216 02:44:39.280 --> 02:44:43.159 Mary in general, like they're going to have a problem 3217 02:44:43.159 --> 02:44:46.040 with any way that you package it when it's some 3218 02:44:46.120 --> 02:44:48.440 kind of negative action towards Mary. 3219 02:44:48.639 --> 02:44:50.879 Yes, I agree, I'm just able to pull out the 3220 02:44:50.959 --> 02:44:54.920 law and say cause himself or something to touch her 3221 02:44:54.959 --> 02:44:57.840 without her consent, that's battery, and like I can say 3222 02:44:57.879 --> 02:45:00.440 definitionally what he did at battery, and then they have 3223 02:45:00.479 --> 02:45:02.079 to go to where they really want to go the 3224 02:45:02.079 --> 02:45:07.319 whole time, which is she wanted to he can do 3225 02:45:07.399 --> 02:45:09.639 it all of those arguments, which is really where they 3226 02:45:09.719 --> 02:45:10.760 end up anyway. 3227 02:45:10.719 --> 02:45:14.319 Right, Well, I mean that's that's what in our conversation specifically, 3228 02:45:14.360 --> 02:45:17.280 is what made me generate that that definition that I 3229 02:45:17.280 --> 02:45:19.479 can just pull out and be like, ah see, this 3230 02:45:19.559 --> 02:45:22.399 is the definition and like that that's the one that 3231 02:45:22.399 --> 02:45:24.840 we're working off of here, and so then we can 3232 02:45:25.079 --> 02:45:26.200 move past it quick. 3233 02:45:26.319 --> 02:45:27.520 So yeah, it's great. 3234 02:45:27.639 --> 02:45:30.040 It's great because and if you have like a poster 3235 02:45:30.079 --> 02:45:31.479 of it where you can just say, here are the 3236 02:45:31.479 --> 02:45:33.760 elements A, B and C. Did he do A? Yep? 3237 02:45:33.799 --> 02:45:34.680 Did he do B? Yep? 3238 02:45:34.719 --> 02:45:35.200 Did he did C? 3239 02:45:35.399 --> 02:45:38.079 Yeah, So he meets our definition of something we determined, 3240 02:45:38.319 --> 02:45:40.200 we deem as a society is criminal. 3241 02:45:40.280 --> 02:45:41.680 Why is he a good guy? 3242 02:45:41.959 --> 02:45:45.040 And then you get to the backflips. 3243 02:45:45.600 --> 02:45:49.040 Because I'm so dense that light bends around me. My 3244 02:45:49.399 --> 02:45:51.559 biggest fear is that I don't want to get into 3245 02:45:51.559 --> 02:45:54.719 the weeds on something technical, for fear of accidentally stumbling 3246 02:45:54.719 --> 02:45:57.239 into a mordern Bailey argument. That's that's my big thing, 3247 02:45:57.360 --> 02:45:59.520 Like I can't defend this. I'm going to go broad 3248 02:45:59.559 --> 02:46:01.360 now and that's just me anyway. 3249 02:46:01.520 --> 02:46:04.520 Spat yeah, yeah, all right, super chat. We had one 3250 02:46:04.520 --> 02:46:08.440 super chat and it was from and Christine the Donut Fiend. 3251 02:46:09.239 --> 02:46:09.680 Thank you. 3252 02:46:09.799 --> 02:46:10.719 I want to say that again. 3253 02:46:10.799 --> 02:46:12.920 And Christine the donut Fiend, I want to join you 3254 02:46:13.040 --> 02:46:16.680 in your fiend of the donut organization gave us five 3255 02:46:16.719 --> 02:46:21.200 dollars and said divine command theory is always used to 3256 02:46:21.520 --> 02:46:27.600 justify sociopathic behaviors. I cannot I cannot come up with 3257 02:46:27.639 --> 02:46:30.239 a better summation of it. I can't think of an 3258 02:46:30.319 --> 02:46:32.600 argument where somebody has said divine command theory is the 3259 02:46:32.639 --> 02:46:35.799 answer and it wasn't in defense of something that was horrific. 3260 02:46:36.159 --> 02:46:36.360 Yeah. 3261 02:46:37.000 --> 02:46:40.360 Also, and I am still the slow boy donut rock 3262 02:46:40.399 --> 02:46:42.120 on Donuts. 3263 02:46:44.479 --> 02:46:47.360 On that note, we should say goodbye, thank you, come 3264 02:46:47.440 --> 02:46:50.000 back next Sunday and see all our shows again. 3265 02:46:50.719 --> 02:46:57.559 Bye bye. 3266 02:46:56.840 --> 02:47:05.440 Please stop passing egg the bullshit everywhere around you, your 3267 02:47:05.559 --> 02:47:08.559 buys setting. 3268 02:47:08.040 --> 02:47:18.200 Of yall, walcle dom'sory, mas diet lemm damn of y'all. 3269 02:47:37.559 --> 02:47:40.559 Watch Talk ee Than Live Sundays at one pm Central. 3270 02:47:40.639 --> 02:47:43.639 Visit tiny dot c c slash y t t H 3271 02:47:43.799 --> 02:47:46.120 and call into the show at five one two nine 3272 02:47:46.239 --> 02:47:48.959 nine nine two four two, or connect to the show 3273 02:47:49.000 --> 02:47:52.280 online at tiny dot c c slash call th H