Speaker 1: What's up, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the
Epstein Chronicles. The ghost of Jeffrey Epstein continues to reach
out from the grave and drag people down, and one
of those people that's been dragged below the surface is
hotshot lawyer Brad Karp, who was the boss man over
at Paul Weiss, one of the biggest and most prestigious
white shoe law firms in the United States. And after
the Epstein files, or at least some of them, were released,
Brad carbon his relationship with Jeffrey Epstein has come back
to haunt them. So today we have a very long
article from the Financial Times talking about the downfall of
Brad Karp and how all of this came into play.
So let's dive in and see what they have for us.
Headline Apollo Paul Weiss and Epstein. How a star client
brought down a big law boss. This article was authored
by A. Wiggins and James Fontanella Cohn and Susie Ring.
As the American legal system closed in on him in
the final months of his life, Jeffrey Epstein shared or
ira mark with a confidant. You will smile, But the
US attorney is named bj Epstein sent in an email
to Brad Karp, one of New York's best paid and
most highly regarded lawyers. Epstein's comment was likely a reference
to US Department of Justice lawyer you Young Jin Pack,
who represented the government after its earlier plea deal with
Epstein was ruled illegal. Yeah, you know the NPA that
I'm always raling about that the DOJ could end tomorrow
if they wanted to that one. They refuse to do it, though.
They refuse to end that NPA because it gives them
protection and it gives them an out. Well, look, these
guys are protected. We can't go after them. But if
the DOJ meant business, they don't, they would get rid
of the NPA yesterday. But for that to happen, we'd
have to be governed by people that were actually serious.
Karp did not officially represent Epstein, but was informally supporting them.
Love it, Karp replied on March fifth, twenty nineteen. Yeah,
I love it, man. I love defending my child molesting buddy.
Hell of a guy. Can't wait to go over to
Jeffy's house and have some tea. It was one of
more than thirty emails that Carp sent Epstein in the
four months after The Miami Herald published testimony from women
who said Epstein's sexual abuse when they were as young
as fourteen had shattered their lives. In those emails, Karp
called Epstein my friend and said he'd love to see
them again. These people don't care, Brad Carp the rest
of them. The only issue they have is being called
onto the carpet. And if you notice, that's the only
time that they even begin to show any kind of
remorse or fake remorse. Oh, I'm so sorry. I should
have never associated with them. No idea, you had, every
idea you didn't care. And that goes for guys like
Brad Karp too. Now, look, I'm not saying Brad Karp
was abusing anybody, but he was enabling Jeffrey Epstein, and
he was certainly helping him out. And you can't even
fall back on the defense that, Oh, well, i'm a lawyer,
this is what I do. Was he your client? Did
he pay a retainer? Oh, none of that happened. Cool,
So he was your friend and you were giving him advice,
got it? Carp brand Paul Weiss, one of the US's
biggest and most prestigious white shoe law firms. He had
just won a coveted Attorney of the Year title, for
which he made a speech saying the firm's lawyers were
committed to doing the right thing. He praised earlier generations
at Paul Weiss, who saw the law as a noble profession,
not as a commercial enterprise. Oh stop it, that's all
it is to any of you. Whi's a noble profession.
As I charged fourteen hundred bucks an hour, I wonder
how many indigent clients mister carp has. I'm guessing not
too many, but sure tell me some more. That it's
all love of the game. But a close reading of
the hundreds of entries in the doj Epstein files and
the conversations with people with knowledge of the firm revealed
just how far he was willing to go for his
most important client, Apollo Global Management. KARPS need to please
the private capital group and it's then leader, Leon Black,
entangled him in a relationship with Epstein that lasted until
months before the pedophile's death in August of twenty nineteen.
And when you have a client like Apollo Global that's
paying you literally millions of dollars on retainer. There's nothing
you're not going to do for them. You're going to
walk the line, right and who cares if girls were abused?
Who gives a shit? I got to make sure my
client's good. Mister carp Is made clear that he regrets
his interaction with Epstein. Paul Weis disagrees with the portrayal
of much of the information specif to our firm. The
law firm told the Ft in response to questions for
this article, Karp declined to comment privately. He has told
those close to him that he was not friends with
Epstein and he was keeping them on side because Black
had wanted them to. I could see that. I could
definitely see that. But it doesn't make it any better.
You're an adult, dude, Okay, nobody's forcing you to do this.
Leon Black doesn't have that kind of power over you.
You're already richer than God. But sure, let me bend
over backwards for Leon Black and Jeffrey Epstein. How does
that make sense to anybody out there? And it's another
reason why I don't care about these people and their reputations.
They had the whole ass world given to them, all
these people, and they squandered it, and now you want
me to care about their reputation because they got nailed
as being a friend of Jeffrey Epstein and in some
cases a lot worse. Sorry, you got the wrong guy.
Much more concerned about the girls who were abused and
about the rest of us who were stolen from I
instructed Brad to engage directly with Epstein on my behalf
on various matters, including thee negotiations, beginning in twenty thirteen
and continuing until twenty nineteen. Black told the FT at
all times Brad provided wise and effective counsel. It would
cost Karp the job that he held for eighteen years.
There is nothing new in the release documents, Apollo said.
It said the law firm Deckert had conducted a thorough
and independent investigation into the Jeffrey Epstein matter more than
five years ago and had full, unfedtered access to all
communications and any other material that they requested. Well, we
know that's a bunch of bs in that longly on
Black article that we did. Recently, we broke it all down,
all the different things that weren't reported, how Deckert was
negligent when it comes to their investigation, and how it
was all by design. Cart became chair of Paul Weiss
in two thousand and eight, when it was best known
for its elite litigation practice. By the early two thousands,
he had realized that if he wanted the position itself
among the top ranks of global law firms, it needed
exposure to private equity, which was then at the beginning
of a decade long boom, and the way to get
that back then, of course, Apollo Global. Nobody did it better, right,
Leon Black, Josh Harris, Mark Rowan, all dudes that were
highly thought of at the time and guys that were
well positioned to do exactly what Paul Weiss wanted. Apollo
was Paul Weiss's solution, and the relationship transformed the law firm.
Paul Weiss gross revenue surged from six hundred and sixty
five million in two thousand and nine to more than
three point twenty five billion in twenty twenty five. According
to a person familiar with the matter, Carp's pay surged two,
propelling him into an elite group of lawyers who made
tens of millions of dollars annually. Apollo paid the firm
more than two hundred million in a year in order
of magnitude, more in fees than most other clients. Now
think about that for a minute. Leon Black or Apollo,
I should say, paid two hundred million dollars to the
whole law firm of Paul Weiss. Now think about how
much money that Leon Black gave to Jeffrey Epstein personally,
and it shows you just how crazy that number is.
Apollo's growing importance to the firm provoke criticism from some
internally who felt Paul Weiss was becoming too heavily exposed
to the private capital group. Look, at that time, nobody
ever thought Apollo was going anywhere. Everybody thought that Apollo
was forever. And look, they still are. It's not like
Apollo's gone, not like they've folded, not like they've been
raided and had all their u that seized. They're still
active and they're still one of the biggest in the game.
And at the time it had to seem smart to
hit your wagon to Apollo. Karp took the view that
he had to stay very close to the founders of
Apollo to make sure Apollo wouldn't leave. A person who
knows him said, staying close to Apollo meant becoming entangled
in Black's complex personal life. Black is sometimes referred to
in the Epstein Files as mister Big, the nickname of
the Wall Street financier character in the TV series Sex
and the City. No idea never watch that show, so
I have no idea who the reference is referring to,
but we'll roll with it. Epstein was also involved in
having known Black since the nineties. By twenty sixteen, however,
the relationship between the two financiers was in trouble. Black
was fighting with Epstein over how much money the Apollo
founder owed for services that included trust and a stay, planning,
tacked issues, and philanthropy, and had asked Karp to deal
with Epstein on his behalf. And for Karp, all he
saw was dollar signs. Right, oh shit, hell ya, I'll middleman,
this what's my cut? How much am I getting? Over
the years, Carp and Epstein discussed Black's fees at length.
Black ultimately paid Epstein one hundred and fifty eight million,
and this is the reason Paul Weiss was cited for
the firm's contact with Epstein, saying that it was retained
by Leon Black, then the CEO of the firm's longtime
client Apollo to negotiate a series of feed disputes with
Jeffrey Epstein that span several years. So Karp was eating
out of both sides of the bowl. Not only was
he friendly with Leon Black, he was friendly with Jeffrey Epstein,
and he helped negotiate this gigantic payout that Epstein ended
up getting. And if you think that was all for
tax advice, if that was all for estate planning, you
probably believe that there's a such thing as mermaids and
that a sasquatch is about to come out of the
forest and kidnap you, because that's how ridiculous it is.
But Karp and Epstein discussed other things too. That included
a woman called Guzelle Ganieva, and she was a Russian
formal model with whom Black had an extramarital affair and
who by twenty fifteen was seeking money from the billionaire
private equity Titan and threatening to go public about their relationship,
according to documents in the DJ files. And what was
so crazy about this situation with Leon Black His wife
was super sick while he was doing this, And I
just can't even imagine, Like when my girlfriend had breast cancer.
The last thing I was thinking about is stepping out
and meeting other women, Like, where are your priorities? Dude?
And look, I get it, everybody has needs and shit, right,
go to the bathroom, handle your business and be done
with it. But for these people, it's about others. It's
not just the pleasure. It's not just oh, I want
to have relations. It's about power. It's about domination. And
when you're talking about a dude like Leon Black, from
what we've heard, sure seems to fit the mold. When
Epstein suggested getting the Manhattan District Attorney involved, Karp made
the call. When Epstein suggested getting Gnieva's visa revoked, Karp said,
we'll work on this. When Epstein asked whether Karp and
his colleagues could have Ganieva arrested, Karp replied, his strong
belief is that the answer is yes. He said this
was especially so because the referral would come from a
former senior prosecutor who Paul Weiss had recently hired. Oh
isn't that great? Nothing like using your connections with SDNY
or insert district here to arrest people. All on behalf
of Jeffrey Epstein and Leon Black. These are straight up
mafia tactics, but when they're performed by people like Karp
and Jeffrey Epstein, it's just considered shrud business. Right. It
was Paul Weiss that hired the private investigation firm Nardello
in company on Black's behalf to Surveiller and Karp, who
asked Epstein in July of twenty fifteen where Ganieva stayed
when she was in New York and whether he knew
her social Security number. Three times in eight days. In
August of twenty fifteen and again in October, Black met
Ganieva at an upscale New York restaurant. Using Nardello. He
recorded their conversations. Karp sent the transcript to Epstein. In
one Black told Ganieva, as long as you behave, I'll
pay you one hundred thousand a month every month for
the next twelve years. What I'm trying to do for
you is also to get a mechanism, and I think
my lawyers have one. Nardello was hired to provide investigative
support and connection with an extortion attempt. The investigation firm
said in the course of that engagement, no one at
Nardello had any contact or communication with Epstein, nor did
the firm know that mister Black's council was sharing its
work product with them. I mean, I guess, I guess
we'll just have to believe that, but kind of hard
to believe. No. Seems to me that that's a very
large bridge to cross. Karp later asked a colleague whether
Paul Weiss could help Black with an escrow fund to
make monthly payments to an individual. The DOJ files show
they don't say whether the request was related to Ganieva.
The firm's policy was not to do so. However, days later,
Karp told Epstein he had sought reconsideration from city groups
two top executives, again without naming Ghanieva, but in the
end they deferred the compliance. Ghanieva rejected any allegation of
extortion and told the ft nothing about my interactions with
Leon Black was consensual, and the truth will come out.
I never sought money from him, she added. Any suggestion
that I pursued him his money or acted voluntarily is false.
So look, at this point, I believe Ganiheva, and I
believe that there's more here than is being let on.
Black made his final payment to Epstein in twenty seventeen,
according to a report from the law firm Decker, which
investigated Black's Apollo links to the pedophile. The deckerd report
did not mention surveillance, private investigators or Ganieva. The carb
Epstein relationship continued, and that's what I was talking about originally.
The Deckert report garbage. Anytime you hear about that, just
discard it. The findings were trash. That same year, the
pair exchanged a set of cryptic messages after Karp was
scheduled to visit Epstein's house. Epstein email Karp to say, sorry,
I spooked you. I think very low risk, very low
if any thanks. Krp replied, I really appreciate you always
being straight with me on many, many, many things. But
I'd never considered myself. That really got me thinking, I
appreciate your friendship. Epstein reassured Carp. I think that is
now a catch all word for anyone who likes women.
So no worries. It's not clear what the word was.
Karp replied, I worry when I have nothing to worry
about my friend. Oh, I guess you did have something
to worry about, didn't you, mister Carp. Some of the
exchanges display an offensive humor. When Epstein, apparently questioning whether
an unnamed woman was being truthful about the signing of
a contract, asked, did she also say she was a virgin?
Karp told Epstein, you're feisty tonight. Karp appears to have
been willing to push the boundaries of confidentiality rules to
meet Epstein's request. In September of twenty fifteen, Karp sent
Epstein an email that appeared to contain login details intended
to be used by the law firm. The email read
user p Weiss password Apple. Sixty five April of twenty eighteen,
Epstein asked him for a copy of a document related
to a stock cell. I'm going to send that to you,
Karp replied, but please don't let them know that I
shared it. It's supposed to be strictly confidential. Black spokesperson
told the FT that Black had instructed Karp to share
the document. He also said Epstein embellished, exaggerated, and lied
in his communications. Black wanted Karp to remain in contact
with Epstein into twenty nineteen because the feed dispute continued,
and because tax and estate matters and transitioning information can
take years. The spokesman said, yeah, right. He wanted to
stay in contact because he was being tugged along and
Epstein had a bunch of dirt on him, so he
had to make sure that the lines of communication remained open. Right.
In his October twenty eighteen speech to accept the New
York Law Journal's Attorney of the Year award, Carp celebrated
Paul Weiss's virtues. It's such a privileged to lead a
law firm who's professionals are wholly committed, reflexively committed to
doing the right thing, the courageous thing, a law firm
that's willing to stand up for the rule of law,
Carp said. The following month, the Miami Herald published its
Epstein investigation. By then, Black had cut off communications. The
damage was already done, and even though they tried to
hide it, eventually it was all going to come out,
and boy did it. In the messages that they exchanged
after that, Epstein and Karp offered comfort and advice to
each other. In December, Epstein told Karp, in relation to
something unspecified hurts that this is taking a physical toll
on you. Not worth it. Carp replied, thanks, my friend,
I hear you just an awful, relentless stretch. Oh poor guys,
can you imagine what those girls were going through. I
don't give a damn about Brad Karp or Jeffrey Epstein.
After a US federal judge ruled that Epstein's two thousand
and seven p D, which had let him avoid federal charges,
illegal in February of twenty nineteen, Karp told Epstein, hope
you're staying calm. Let me know what I can do
to help your judgment and friendship. Epstein replied. Karp turned
to Epstein for recommendations for a lawyer. When former City
Group president John Havens was ensnared in a Florida prostitution
crackdown in February of twenty nineteen, Havens told FT, I
had never met Epstein, I never spoke with Epstein, and
I never asked or knew that Karp spoke to Epstein.
I got legal references from other people and did not
use the lawyer Karp referred me to. Charges against Havens
were ultimately dropped. A month later, when Epstein was under
renewed threat of legal action and wanted the firm of
private investigators, it was Karp who recommended Nardello and the
same organization Paul Weiss had previously hired on Black's behalf
In twenty nineteen, unbeknounced to mister Nardello a firm client
recommended that Epstein contact them about providing assistance with anticipated
civil litigation. The investigative firm said, Epstein reached out, but
mister Nardello declined to help, and they had no further contact.
I'm sure they had no contact or was it it
was back channel contact. I'm guessing it was back channel contact.
By the time that the DOJ published the Epstein files
this year, Karp had already lost to shine in parts
of New York legal community because of his capitulation to
the Trump administration. When US President Donald Trump issued potentially
damaging executive orders targeting Paul Weiss and others last year,
it was a test of the law firm's identity. Other
firms successfully fought back in court. Some of Paul Weis's
litigators would have liked to do the same, but it
was clear within Paul Weiss that it was not in
Apollo's interest for the firm to be in conflict with
the administration. Any implication not Apollo in any way weighed
in or attempted to influence our decision making with respect
to the executive order is completely false, Paul White said,
Does anyone really believe this Carp dude? Just another scumbag
with revisionist history. Carp agreed to provide forty million dollars
of unpaid work for Trump back causes. The order was
dropped soon after other large law firms struck similar deals.
You couldn't imagine a greater chilling effect on the rest
of the profession than Karp's deal, the head of a
large law firm set at the time. The episode prompted
speculation about Karp's future. He weathered it, reinforcing his reputation
internally as a stabilizing figure. But when the DOJ published
three million pages from the Epstein finals in late January,
some clients began signaling concerns about reputational risk from Karp's relationship.
Within days, a small group of partners started preparing a
contingency plan to replace Karp, before agreeing that he should
be removed as chair. He remains a partner, so he
had to step down, but he still works for the firm.
Keep that in mind. As the drama unfolded, some partners
express frustration that Karp had not stepped aside earlier. Some
believed that he should leave the firm entirely. Still, some
in the firm's litigation business, where Carp made his name,
thought he should not have had to step down as
chair at all. Others viewed his removal as chair as
a proportionate response, given that he had not been accused
of breaking the law. Some partners were told he was
being allowed to remain in the firm out of what
one referred to as humanity. He had worked there for
more than forty years since his days as a summer associate.
Star deal maker. Scott Barshay has since been installed as chair.
He's less close to Apollo than others at the firm,
since he advises on public AIMEE rather than private equity
deal making, and he's less inclined than Karp to present
the firm as a force for good in the world.
He's not named in the Epstein files, Well, that's a
fucking achievement in itself at this point. If you're in
the financial sector and your name is not in the
Epstein files, I think that's success for you, and I
think the same goes for these law firms. Right, how
many of these big shot lawyers are caught up of Karp?
One partner said at the time of his departure, his
chair people used to like him, partly because he is
charming and charismatic. But everyone is so annoyed about this. Look.
I don't doubt it. Imagine being a partner, I'd be
pissed too. And when it comes to guys like Carp,
there's gonna be many more following suit. And I think
as more comes out and more emails are gone through
and more connections are made, you're gonna see this kind
of exodus from other big shots. We've already seen Catherine
Rummler end up leaving her posts at Goldman Sachs, big
time lawyer, and now we have mister Karp as well,
And in my opinion, he most certainly won't be the last.
All Right, folks, that's going to do it for this one.
All the information that goes with this episode can be
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