Speaker 1: Welcome back to Babylon.
Speaker 2: We had the podcast last We actually crew that as
Speaker 2: watching and breaking down episodes of Babylon five. We just
Speaker 2: watched season three, episode two, Convictions, in which a lot
Speaker 2: of stuff went.
Speaker 3: Bruce shoved a calm link up his butt.
Speaker 1: That might be the most important thing.
Speaker 2: Sorry, it makes me happy because every other show they
Speaker 2: always talk about it and they never do it in
Speaker 2: this show.
Speaker 4: You just like shut show delivered and he didn't hesitate.
Speaker 3: Didn't even have a flared base.
Speaker 4: That truly did. Stephen Franklin was going to have to
Speaker 4: figure that one out.
Speaker 5: Yes, the Babylon podcast was our last best hope for
Speaker 5: a concise discussion. It failed, but in the Year of
Speaker 5: the Great Tangents it became something better, our last best
Speaker 5: hope for clarity.
Speaker 4: The year is twenty twenty six.
Speaker 5: The place wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2: We should introduce ourselves before we get into the nitty
Speaker 2: gritty about that.
Speaker 4: I've know that what I call.
Speaker 6: Hey.
Speaker 3: Hey, my name is Jenny.
Speaker 2: I'm a big fan of the show and I've watched
Speaker 2: it through many times.
Speaker 6: My name is Jen, I'm a screenwriter and how runner.
Speaker 6: I watched the show back in the day and I'm
Speaker 6: watching it.
Speaker 3: Again, Gus actor, first time watcher.
Speaker 4: Ali, I'm a lot of stuff and Jen's like Jens
Speaker 4: like say it, say it. Hey, I'm a sure runner
Speaker 4: and an actor.
Speaker 3: And go watch the reaction for more context.
Speaker 4: A sure runner and actor. And this is my first
Speaker 4: time watching Babylon five.
Speaker 1: It's very exciting.
Speaker 2: Before we get into the uh nitty gritty. I'm gonna
Speaker 2: use the phrase again and it makes me uncomfortable now.
Speaker 2: This episode was written by JMS and directed by Believe
Speaker 2: Michael Behart.
Speaker 3: Oh he's back.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so. Let me just double check that
Speaker 2: before because I got it wrong in one.
Speaker 6: Well, that's because the Lakers was wrong.
Speaker 1: The other side was wrong.
Speaker 2: The Lurkers guy was right. The other side was the
Speaker 2: other side that I used was wrong. This one is
Speaker 2: right and is Mike Mayhart.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And.
Speaker 2: I guess before I added to this, you kept like
Speaker 2: you were talking about bombings in the reaction. This episode
Speaker 2: dropped November thirteenth, nineteen ninety five.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Jen's Dodding.
Speaker 2: Oklahoma City bombing happened April nineteenth, nineteen ninety five, so
Speaker 2: this is almost certainly a response to that.
Speaker 7: And I was like, wasn't there a bombing in the
Speaker 7: nineties that was very important.
Speaker 6: Yes, and it was, and it was this this character
Speaker 6: was like obviously based on that, Like it was the
Speaker 6: I haven't been understood. I've been like, you know, like
Speaker 6: no one oh respects me.
Speaker 1: A lot of people say that about Timothy mcveay.
Speaker 2: Timothy yvay was like he had copies of the Turner
Speaker 2: Diaries in his car, which is like a racist white
Speaker 2: people have managed to kill all the rest of the
Speaker 2: people in the world and we now have a white utopia.
Speaker 7: Like it sounds like a deeply misunderstood individual.
Speaker 2: Exactly, he was a racist. He was a racist white supremacist.
Speaker 7: But for some reason, what a surprise, a racist white
Speaker 7: supremacist does other shitty stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we talk about it, like we don't know what.
Speaker 2: He had ages from his favorite chapters of the Turner
Speaker 2: Diaries in his.
Speaker 7: If you've read the monoc so you have favorite chapters,
Speaker 7: you're a shitty human.
Speaker 3: Probably something wrong going on there.
Speaker 1: Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 7: Listen, I know we're in the we're in the like, oh,
Speaker 7: this war criminal is a complex character.
Speaker 3: But no, no, no, no, no, no, Look that character
Speaker 3: is a complex character. The bomber man was not a
Speaker 3: complex character.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he was just a dickhead.
Speaker 3: He was just an asshole.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I will say I doubt that.
Speaker 2: I don't know that that was common knowledge that he
Speaker 2: had to the Turner Diaries in his car at the
Speaker 2: time of this episode.
Speaker 1: But I just find it frustrating that people still say that.
Speaker 2: About Timothy Day, like, oh, we don't know what the
Speaker 2: guy was a racist, white supremacist who thought that white
Speaker 2: people should.
Speaker 1: Rule the world.
Speaker 4: Sometimes people are just.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, so yeah, anyway, So yeah, this episode in
Speaker 2: which something got shoved up Bruce's butt.
Speaker 3: That's the main thing.
Speaker 1: That's the main thing.
Speaker 4: That's all I really want to talk about for the.
Speaker 6: Next I mean, I told you that this is true.
Speaker 6: I don't remember this episode. I don't think I saw
Speaker 6: this one and back in the day, and it is
Speaker 6: a very much of a one off episode.
Speaker 7: I mean remember watching the episode where he showed something
Speaker 7: up his ass.
Speaker 6: Yes, so when I said, but he said where should
Speaker 6: I put it? And I yelled, up your butt. I
Speaker 6: didn't actually think he was gonna put also yelled that
Speaker 6: we both did, and he did. He did exactly what
Speaker 6: we told him to do.
Speaker 4: So once they follow my instructions.
Speaker 2: Exactly, it makes me happy in the show because like
Speaker 2: every show, they say it and then it's like a
Speaker 2: joke and then it doesn't happen, and it and it
Speaker 2: was a plot point because it was up his butt
Speaker 2: and then he sat down and that's what alerted him.
Speaker 3: It's it's just look, I recognized that laughing at this
Speaker 3: is perhaps somewhat immature. Sure, then who.
Speaker 4: Gives a ship. It's funny as fuck.
Speaker 7: This is the thing. Here's the thing. Immaturity is underrated.
Speaker 7: What are we doing so seriously? Why are we taking
Speaker 7: life so seriously? We're in meat suits.
Speaker 4: That's funny.
Speaker 6: We're meat.
Speaker 2: We're meat donuts. That's what humans are. We're just meat donuts.
Speaker 2: We have like a big hole in the middle.
Speaker 1: And it's.
Speaker 3: Guyton about the fact that we got a big hold.
Speaker 3: And you know, you're full of bones.
Speaker 6: A machine machine to know, you know they're a machine.
Speaker 3: Sorry, you're a brain full of bones piloting a meat
Speaker 3: suit on some bones. You're a gun. Congratulation.
Speaker 1: Your bones, all your bones are wet.
Speaker 3: They're just bones are wet. Yeah, yeah, your bones are wet.
Speaker 4: I'm gonna leave anyway.
Speaker 1: Never mind, that's donuts with wet bones.
Speaker 4: I have boundaries now, I have boundaries. Now, okay, I'm sorry,
Speaker 4: I have boundaries now.
Speaker 1: But it was funny, like Garibaldi was like, turn up
Speaker 1: the volume, we'll hear what you had for lunch. Like
Speaker 1: it was all they knew.
Speaker 3: What they were doing was funny. Gat that was good.
Speaker 3: This is really good. This episode was really good.
Speaker 6: And as a standalone it was really good. Like normally
Speaker 6: the normally the like I mean, I always go back
Speaker 6: to X Files and the like Alien of the Week,
Speaker 6: but this was not an Alien of the Week. It
Speaker 6: was absolutely we could pick this episode up and take
Speaker 6: it out and the story would continue. And yet it
Speaker 6: was like, I mean, you know, it was great and
Speaker 6: fun and interesting and I cared and I was involved
Speaker 6: and interested.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, I mean yeah, we could pick it up
Speaker 3: and take it out. Yes, but you know, a lot
Speaker 3: of character development, right, we got we got Londo was
Speaker 3: a lifeet to linear. We've got that is not really
Speaker 3: sure about the decision Lanier and Jakar not linear, Londo
Speaker 3: and Jakar in the elevator, Uh big for both of them.
Speaker 3: Kind of I feel like.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you, I'm going to tell you that's one
Speaker 2: of the most famous scenes in the ship.
Speaker 3: It's that scene is fantastic. Yeah, it didn't change anything
Speaker 3: in their relationship, but you know, because that's a moment
Speaker 3: where you could see one or the other of them
Speaker 3: extend some kind of olive branch and they both said, no,
Speaker 3: fuck you. It's season three.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you would see it. Either happened, Like I was
Speaker 6: actually expecting to see Jakar reach into the hallway and
Speaker 6: grab Londo and pull him out of the hallway, but
Speaker 6: he did right, so Londo had to jump, and then
Speaker 6: of course it was like easy opportunity two hours for
Speaker 6: Jaikar to kill him and get away with it despite
Speaker 6: the you know, the treaty thing. I had forgotten about
Speaker 6: that until he said it, but you know, and so
Speaker 6: it was a chance for a lot of things to
Speaker 6: happen that didn't. And yet it also it also validated
Speaker 6: where they started in the show because we actually got
Speaker 6: clowns at the end of it. I mean clowns with
Speaker 6: a lot of baggage, but we got clowns at the end.
Speaker 6: And it was like we all we say that every
Speaker 6: almost every week during the opening credits, were like, I
Speaker 6: miss it when Chakar and Londo were clowns and they
Speaker 6: gave it to us.
Speaker 3: Interesting they've switched because it used to be the lanier.
Speaker 3: God damn it. Londo was the sad clown in Jakar
Speaker 3: was the mean clown, and now Jakar's sad clown and
Speaker 3: Londo was the mean clown.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 4: And how incredible able to easily switch.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I think there was like during that two hours
Speaker 2: when he had time, like he could have killed him.
Speaker 2: I think that's what Londo was frustrated about in this
Speaker 2: two hours. What have you done to try.
Speaker 1: And say, have done anything? I just wanted to watch
Speaker 1: you slowly die?
Speaker 7: Yeah, And I wanted to see you slowly sixty eight.
Speaker 7: I was on my bucket list.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that was it.
Speaker 3: Willing to die so Londo would die, Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I have you know, personally, I've never had someone hate
Speaker 7: me so much that I think they'd want to watch
Speaker 7: me slowly. They'd want to slowly ashixiate to have the
Speaker 7: opportunity to watch me slowly sixty eight. I feel like
Speaker 7: that's probably a sign that I'm doing something right.
Speaker 3: You know what else? I just I should have realized
Speaker 3: this in the moment Jams. Did he set up a
Speaker 3: situation where somebody saved Londo at the expense of potentially
Speaker 3: the expense of his own life. And then we had
Speaker 3: a situation where somebody is willing to kill Londo, allow
Speaker 3: Londo to die, also at the expense of his own life.
Speaker 1: The expensive complex card. Yes, yes, a complex.
Speaker 2: Can who you went a allie and then got mad
Speaker 2: at yourself for aweing the war trips.
Speaker 4: Here's the thing about me, empathy.
Speaker 7: It's a difficult thing to have, Like like the oh,
Speaker 7: look at people who are bad people, objectively bad people,
Speaker 7: and I'm like, I feel really sorry for them, because
Speaker 7: like I can't imagine going through life having done those
Speaker 7: things to people.
Speaker 4: And then I.
Speaker 7: Get like sad on their behalf of how like lonely
Speaker 7: and twisted their souls must be.
Speaker 4: And then I'm like, but at the same time, fuck
Speaker 4: those people.
Speaker 7: But at the same time, oh, maybe their parents just
Speaker 7: like were really awful to them. But then I'm like,
Speaker 7: but fuck them, that's an excuse, And I to just
Speaker 7: go back and forth like that forever.
Speaker 3: Compassion Yeah, in my fantasy.
Speaker 4: Serious, you know, I just I think about it.
Speaker 7: I'm like, you know, I've had some really mess up
Speaker 7: things that happen, and I'm like I'd much rather be
Speaker 7: the person that had those set things happen than live
Speaker 7: my life having done those things. People Oh my God,
Speaker 7: like Guykes and magic.
Speaker 3: In my food.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I just think I think about that sometimes I'm like,
Speaker 7: oh no, it's a much easier burden.
Speaker 2: Well, from the way, yeah, from the JMS speak section there,
Speaker 2: he does say Londo and then like emphasis, Londo does
Speaker 2: have his moments where one almost likes him.
Speaker 1: In spite of himself.
Speaker 2: The second episode of Year three has scenes in which
Speaker 2: you don't like him and then you do like him enormously,
Speaker 2: and then you don't again. He's caught in the scissors
Speaker 2: and trying madly to find some way out of the situation.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean mostly fuck him.
Speaker 4: But yeah, I mean I think that's important.
Speaker 7: I mean I've also known people who have done some
Speaker 7: pretty messed up things, and it's like, yeah, they're not
Speaker 7: all like nobody is a monolith, right, Like yeah, Like
Speaker 7: they also might like love dogs, or like had a
Speaker 7: parent that loved them or like you know. I mean,
Speaker 7: that's the difficult thing about like human beings is that
Speaker 7: they contain multitudes exactly. And I think that's kind of
Speaker 7: important because I think a lot of the time, people
Speaker 7: will be like, ah, of course I would stand up
Speaker 7: against injustice.
Speaker 4: Of course I would do X, Y and Z.
Speaker 7: And I have people say that to my face and
Speaker 7: then like something happens and then they're like, oh, well,
Speaker 7: but they're my friend so and you're like, yeah, all
Speaker 7: the more reason we must hold our friends accountable as well. Like,
Speaker 7: I know, it's uncomfy when it's your community and when
Speaker 7: it's your like you'd like to think that you're the
Speaker 7: kind of person that was stand up and you're like
Speaker 7: with these faceless people who are over there who I
Speaker 7: don't know, right, of course I would. And it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 7: that's a much easier person to confront about their shitty behavior.
Speaker 2: Other things I just trying to other things that happened
Speaker 2: to We had the introduction of some monks into this introduction.
Speaker 3: They stick around. They stay. When you say introduction, it
Speaker 3: makes me think they stick around and they're not a lot.
Speaker 6: Of things introduced to us in this episode. We have
Speaker 6: something exciting to tell you about the month, Yes exactly, Yes,
Speaker 6: something exciting to tell you about the monks.
Speaker 4: What do you have to tell us about the monks?
Speaker 6: Remember how I was like all up in the like, God,
Speaker 6: I could listen to that guy's voice. I like it. Yeah,
Speaker 6: it was also like, it's really familiar. I should know this,
Speaker 6: and I should have known this because Jenny and I
Speaker 6: have actually talked about it before.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's Draw though, Yes, its original Draw planet. Oh
Speaker 3: that's that's so he just.
Speaker 4: Yeah, understandable.
Speaker 1: The reason he didn't come back for because he was
Speaker 1: sick at that time.
Speaker 6: Yeah, it wasn't because he was going to do this.
Speaker 6: He just didn't come.
Speaker 3: Back for New Draw because he was a different season.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's just sick at that time. But they
Speaker 2: brought him in to play Theo. There's a lot in
Speaker 2: the Looker's Guide about the name Theo. It's just a
Speaker 2: name that that Jamis really likes, and it's I would
Speaker 2: have assumed because he's a month in his theology theology.
Speaker 2: But no, it's Vincent dan Go's brother. It's one of
Speaker 2: his favorite names.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I did think at first, is this kind
Speaker 3: of drawl like? And then I went no, probably not
Speaker 3: like it's literally comments as draw.
Speaker 7: It's matters for talking too much, and you know, and
Speaker 7: then when we don't talk, we we don't say something important.
Speaker 4: That's right.
Speaker 1: Well, that's that's one of the paradoxes of reactions.
Speaker 2: People want to see you react, but they want to
Speaker 2: see you react exactly the way they react and say
Speaker 2: the things that they're thinking.
Speaker 1: It's like, it's just, yeah, that's called projection a little bit.
Speaker 1: A little bit, it's like, I don't want to hear
Speaker 1: to talk.
Speaker 2: But when you when you saw this part, you should
Speaker 2: have said the thing that I was thinking when you
Speaker 2: saw that part.
Speaker 3: But this line you didn't visibly react to. Sorry, yes,
Speaker 3: but yeah.
Speaker 1: The monks were useful you. I kept worrying that the
Speaker 1: monks would.
Speaker 3: Be well, I worried that the monks would be evil
Speaker 3: because I was like, Okay, you established with the writer thing.
Speaker 3: I guess with the drawsy guys, you established there are
Speaker 3: missionaries to make me feel calm about the fact that
Speaker 3: there are random factions. Then you brought in these monks
Speaker 3: after having established there are missionaries on board. Now we
Speaker 3: also have some monks. Ah cool, I can just brush
Speaker 3: that off because we've already established their missionaries. If they
Speaker 3: were the only missionaries that if they were the only
Speaker 3: missionaries that we had show up, then I would be
Speaker 3: suspicious of them. But we already established there are some missionaries,
Speaker 3: so then the monks can slide under the radar. Then
Speaker 3: we didn't talk about them for fifteen to twenty minutes
Speaker 3: after establishing bombs is a thing, and I went okay, well,
Speaker 3: the monks showed up in a way that made me
Speaker 3: not think about them too much because I already had
Speaker 3: other missionaries. Then we had bombs and the monks seemed
Speaker 3: too good to be true. And then when she was like,
Speaker 3: I can get the monks to help with the bombing,
Speaker 3: I went, nope, never mind, We're fine, because at that
Speaker 3: point I was like, well, why what and why not
Speaker 3: just bringing the monks? If the monks are just chill
Speaker 3: ass monks, just bring But if you want me to
Speaker 3: not necessarily remember that the monks stick out as a
Speaker 3: total anomaly, prime me with the drowsy and then bringing them.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's where I was at too.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 7: I was kind of operating under the whole like Bones
Speaker 7: thing where I'm like, whoever they interview first, is not
Speaker 7: it so if they interviewed yes, oh okay, yeah, it
Speaker 7: show bones.
Speaker 3: He is the second person they talked to in almost
Speaker 3: every episode.
Speaker 1: Yes, And then.
Speaker 3: They spend the entire episode investigating stuff that doesn't matter
Speaker 3: while they wait for a lab result to come back
Speaker 3: that they sent in ten minutes into the episode, and
Speaker 3: then the lab result comes back and it turns out
Speaker 3: it was the second person they talked to, who they
Speaker 3: thought had nothing to do with it. Yeah, I thought
Speaker 3: it was a bones thing kind.
Speaker 1: Of I understand. I understand you thinking it was a
Speaker 1: bones thing.
Speaker 4: I thought it was a bones thing.
Speaker 3: Monks are just they were just chill. I love them.
Speaker 3: I love the text because.
Speaker 7: That was kind of a thing for while in the
Speaker 7: nineties too, with like all those little crime shows and
Speaker 7: stuff where I was like, it's always the second person
Speaker 7: that they talked to.
Speaker 6: How much do we love Lanier telling a lie to
Speaker 6: get that guy off of him?
Speaker 3: Yes, that was absurd, Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: Why, by the way, was that he had something called
Speaker 2: letters syndrome?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's the executive producer of the show.
Speaker 3: Who also was the picture of Santiago.
Speaker 1: Yes to the president.
Speaker 2: And there's also been a mention in one of the
Speaker 2: episodes previous and somebody called somebody General Nett.
Speaker 4: You know, just yeah, got drop it in. That's cute.
Speaker 3: That's the other thing. I was like, why did we
Speaker 3: have a forty five second scene of Lanier being annoyed
Speaker 3: by a man and then he blew up, and I
Speaker 3: was like, to make.
Speaker 6: You remember you like him before they and it was
Speaker 6: It's also a moment of he's like, I'm leaving because
Speaker 6: I found that I'm sick and I have seven days
Speaker 6: to live. And while we all didn't really think that
Speaker 6: that was true, we also like had a moment of
Speaker 6: being like, oh my god, what what's going on with Linear?
Speaker 6: And then you're like, oh my god, he's lying. Of
Speaker 6: course Lanier's not going to die, and then ten seconds
Speaker 6: later you receive a good blown up.
Speaker 3: Right, it's false sense of security. You never feel secure
Speaker 3: for some reason. If Lanier had just shown up to
Speaker 3: open the door and then gotten blown up, I would
Speaker 3: have gone, well, he's gonna be fine because they're not
Speaker 3: going to kill him. Just there he is. You need
Speaker 3: to give me at least yeah, a second to be like.
Speaker 6: Ah, it's like the episode when you're going to kill
Speaker 6: somebody off of any any series, when they're like you're like, oh,
Speaker 6: this character's really getting a great episode, Like you find
Speaker 6: we find off.
Speaker 3: Fuck walking Dead, every every fucking walking down, every Walking
Speaker 3: Dead Dead.
Speaker 2: You can tell Buffy, uh, even Tasha are like the
Speaker 2: episode because she dies was a great Tasha your episode.
Speaker 7: Like, so yeah, skin of Evil, gotta make us care
Speaker 7: about him before you kill him, so their death has
Speaker 7: In fact.
Speaker 3: It's a good Tasha episode.
Speaker 2: It's a good Tasha episodes, necessarily a good episode.
Speaker 3: The evil oil Slick.
Speaker 1: Yes, exactly, also just a dick.
Speaker 3: That oil Slick had a lot in common with Bomby
Speaker 3: Bomby Bomber Bomberman met What the fun was his name?
Speaker 3: Carlson Bomberman, Carlson.
Speaker 6: Carlton, Sure, Carlton Carlson.
Speaker 1: Go on, yeah something? No, I like Daniels, I like.
Speaker 3: Uh, I don't, I don't know, it doesn't matter, it's
Speaker 3: all good. Jason Ironheart, we'll call him Jason Ironheart.
Speaker 4: No, that's too cool. Fact, wait, what I know?
Speaker 3: What joke is that Jason iron Heart was the first
Speaker 3: guy called Daniel.
Speaker 2: Yes, that's my name, a joke because his name is
Speaker 2: remember his name?
Speaker 4: I stand by that. I can't remember most names.
Speaker 3: It's so cool. It is really cool. Jason Ironheart, who
Speaker 3: was connected to Talia speaking of yeah, her boyfriend. We
Speaker 3: don't need to talk about Talia. She wasn't in this episode.
Speaker 4: Yes, we do are we always talking about?
Speaker 3: I'm sorry, where where were you going? I've derailed the
Speaker 3: entire conversation.
Speaker 1: No, it's fine, I guess I wanted to.
Speaker 5: Like.
Speaker 2: This episode has pretty much one linear plot pretty much,
Speaker 2: so it's a lot of places to go.
Speaker 3: As a linear plot, which is also a linear plot.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, that's reminding me the joke that came up
Speaker 2: you know you you were. It's a kind of groany
Speaker 2: moment and a little bit nerve wracking moment every time
Speaker 2: that joke was brought up. It is referenced in the
Speaker 2: Lurker's Guide because it apparently was a thing that was
Speaker 2: happening at convention where people were making.
Speaker 1: Up how many light bulbs?
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it was a nod to this thing that
Speaker 2: was happening or not conventions, he said, I think it's online.
Speaker 3: That makes sense because he was plugged nod to the fandom.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's sweet, yeah, he says.
Speaker 6: He says, uh, yeah, it was like it was all
Speaker 6: over the nets, the way he puts.
Speaker 4: It all over the nets. Yeah yeah, yeah, such a
Speaker 4: nineties way to say that.
Speaker 1: It would have been grew nets.
Speaker 4: Oh my god. Wow, that's hip and happening.
Speaker 2: Hip and happening, and you know, I'm trying to think
Speaker 2: of other nineties it was groovy and rad.
Speaker 1: Rad.
Speaker 6: It was rad.
Speaker 4: I still say, I still rad. We're not saying rad anymore.
Speaker 3: You say whatever they ran down if you want to.
Speaker 2: But it was definitely a thing we said in the
Speaker 2: nineties and if you were cool, I was just gonna
Speaker 2: say that scene with Londo and talking.
Speaker 1: To Lanier, it was, It's great, very like. It was
Speaker 1: a great scene.
Speaker 2: And as you said during the reaction, Jen like, it
Speaker 2: took its time and like let us sit I like
Speaker 2: those moments and where the camera just let you sit
Speaker 2: in the in the scene.
Speaker 1: And experience it. It's yeah, good and it was so
Speaker 1: well handled by Peter.
Speaker 4: Those guys.
Speaker 3: Listen, Peter Jurassic and Andreas Catsulas. Anytime they'rey in a
Speaker 3: scene alone or not, it's good. Yeah, it's always good.
Speaker 4: I agree.
Speaker 7: Anytime that Andreas and Peter ju is in a scene together, it's.
Speaker 4: It's an excellent.
Speaker 1: You're making me.
Speaker 6: Sleeping and I have to do a comedy show up this.
Speaker 4: I have to like, I'm making you sleepy?
Speaker 1: How too?
Speaker 4: I am relaxed? I am well away? Yeah, you know, sorry,
Speaker 4: that's such a vibe.
Speaker 3: I'm great actors Bill and uh claud Mirror, Oh my god,
Speaker 3: Garibaldi is.
Speaker 4: Jerry.
Speaker 3: It's Jerry Doyle, Mary Kay, Robert, Robert Ruler.
Speaker 4: Anyone know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: I'll do yes.
Speaker 2: But anyway, do you have any further thoughts about that
Speaker 2: scene or, like I said, the elevator seat, which is
Speaker 2: like it is a very very.
Speaker 4: They're really wonderful. I'm like, it's just good writing.
Speaker 3: I feel like elevator will be makes a lot of
Speaker 3: sense textually in all of the contexts where we've put them,
Speaker 3: because it's an enclosed space where you're trapped, right, that
Speaker 3: makes use. Yeah, it's a liminal space where you're trapped
Speaker 3: and you can't get away. But I also this is breaching,
Speaker 3: but I decided I wanted to look at this kind
Speaker 3: of metatexturally too. An elevator also goes up and down,
Speaker 3: which is an obvious thing to say, Gus, thank you
Speaker 3: for that. But Londo and Jakar's entire arcs is one
Speaker 3: of them is going up and one of them is
Speaker 3: going down. Yeah, and they consider they they view one
Speaker 3: another as opposite ends of a folkrum basically, where of
Speaker 3: a you know of a of a lever of seesaw
Speaker 3: whatever where if he goes up, I must be going down,
Speaker 3: and if I go up, he must be going down.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: So the fact that they have now had multiple episodes,
Speaker 3: multiple scenes in or near elevators with one another. I
Speaker 3: don't think it's just because it's a convenient spot. I
Speaker 3: feel like he's doing something you know, literary with that
Speaker 3: which I like.
Speaker 6: You And in this one it doesn't go anywhere. No,
Speaker 6: and their status in this one is very static, you know,
Speaker 6: like they come in and we would think Jakar should
Speaker 6: be low status. In this moment, he's citizen Jakar. He's
Speaker 6: not an ambassador. Malari has won everything, A lot of
Speaker 6: has won everything. But but it's a but he'd he
Speaker 6: has no fox left to give, and that gives that
Speaker 6: elevates his status and gives him some power in a
Speaker 6: really beautiful way. His stillness, I mean I loved him
Speaker 6: not speaking all through the beginning of that of like
Speaker 6: we should have done this, you should have done that,
Speaker 6: you know, like it was just like it was great
Speaker 6: until finally no.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's another thing that you know we talked
Speaker 3: I mentioned earlier, the Jakar when near parallel. You can
Speaker 3: also parallel Jakar and Carlson, because both of them are
Speaker 3: of the opinion they have nothing left to lose. One
Speaker 3: of them is handling that significantly better than the other. Yeah, yes,
Speaker 3: that one, of course being Chakar, the first, the first
Speaker 3: one who is handling it better, but both of them.
Speaker 3: And look, no, no, obviously, fucking dick head McGee is
Speaker 3: suffering in many ways, but you know, he didn't get
Speaker 3: his planet bombed to the abyss and back by the Centaur.
Speaker 3: So not to not to compare apples and trauma, but
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: It is apples versus literal genocis one of them.
Speaker 1: Is somewhat worse than the other.
Speaker 6: Apples, the two genitors. So sorry, okay, yeah no, And
Speaker 6: now I'm like no, I mean now I'm like, okay,
Speaker 6: never mind. We have started the conversation by talking about
Speaker 6: the name Jennifer and how many Jennifers there were when
Speaker 6: Jenny and I were growing up, and then I've always
Speaker 6: been like, oh, I'm going to write a show called
Speaker 6: Generation X, but Jen er and then thank you. But
Speaker 6: now I'm like, wait, everything is jen Jenna's side. I'm
Speaker 6: like I never did that math before, and now I'm sad, so.
Speaker 7: Is genuine thank you.
Speaker 2: And Jen you flexed, you flexed, and gentle and yet
Speaker 2: general generous general. Yes, it's all good, it's all good.
Speaker 2: But another note from the Lurkers Guide, just because people
Speaker 2: were asking about the shield, sorry, the shot with the explosion,
Speaker 2: and people were assuming like there were effects, and I mean,
Speaker 2: obviously it's an effect, but it was a practical effect.
Speaker 2: It says, here's how that shot was done. We built
Speaker 2: a miniature hallway and then in parentheses, yea miniature ain't
Speaker 2: the right word. It was something like thirty feet long
Speaker 2: or more painted it so it looked exactly like the
Speaker 2: regular B five hallway and on film you can't tell
Speaker 2: the difference. Then he mounted the hallway vertically alongside the
Speaker 2: outside of the building so that the fire ball would
Speaker 2: come up towards the camera. He set the camera at
Speaker 2: the top pointing down the hall and that's pretty much
Speaker 2: how that shot.
Speaker 3: Oh that's cool, Yeah, that's very cool.
Speaker 6: That's really great.
Speaker 3: Speaking of explosions, can we talk about the fucking Looney
Speaker 3: Tunes ass trapped bomb at what that was? Like the
Speaker 3: most cheese under a box explosion I've ever seen in
Speaker 3: my wife, Like Wow, there's some cool stuff in air.
Speaker 3: You didn't need to close the box. That was unnecessary.
Speaker 3: That what the fuck is this guy's problem? My life sucks.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go kill the poor What a dick?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 4: What an asshole?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm just gonna say people who bomb.
Speaker 7: If you're like, I don't say this is a realistic thing,
Speaker 7: but this guy isn't.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's certain thought processes that I don't understand,
Speaker 2: Like I don't Genovia.
Speaker 4: Sorry, I can't stop. Thank you, I'm sorry, I can't stop.
Speaker 6: Wait. As long as we're going with Genovia, I might
Speaker 6: as well.
Speaker 4: Just yea, I have a uh, everyone should have one.
Speaker 4: That's awesome.
Speaker 6: I'm wearing this for the rest of the if you're
Speaker 6: if you're listening, Charlie, I'm wearing the ti RRA that
Speaker 6: I got at walk On last year for being in
Speaker 6: the Green Nausea.
Speaker 2: That's amazing. It has nice green jewels and everything is great.
Speaker 2: Why are we I not in the green Ajia? But
Speaker 2: I should get a try anyway.
Speaker 3: You can animate yourself at Tiara.
Speaker 2: I actually very easily could. There is one built into
Speaker 2: this program. But yeah, any other wait, but that t
Speaker 2: r O.
Speaker 1: Ed. There would be would have.
Speaker 7: To be one episode of this show where we're all
Speaker 7: in trs and we say nothing about it.
Speaker 4: We say nothing about it. I'm down. Oh my god,
Speaker 4: I have two trs. Gus can have one.
Speaker 3: You know, if you if you were wearing that Tiara
Speaker 3: in various provinces that were French and you had guards,
Speaker 3: they would be called gen dar.
Speaker 4: Okay, we were all.
Speaker 7: Mad at me, you're me for doing it, and now we.
Speaker 6: Were never mad at you.
Speaker 7: I have to go get my Okay, Charlie.
Speaker 3: Charlie is in sham, Charlie.
Speaker 6: We're really messed up today. We're doing a lot of
Speaker 6: things on care.
Speaker 1: World too many. Tiara's going about.
Speaker 3: Okay, Alie's gone. You guys want to tell me a
Speaker 3: bunch of spoiler.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, yeah, totally.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: Marcus was the one off.
Speaker 3: Marcus, Marcus Keffer, mar Marcus Kefer, everybody.
Speaker 2: I'll tell an anecdote while she's gone because the missionary
Speaker 2: position reminded me of this very scary first job. Yeah,
Speaker 2: my very first job in Korea had this horrible boss.
Speaker 2: In my entire life, I've never met anybody who was
Speaker 2: as overtly misogynistic to the point that he literally told
Speaker 2: me to my face that I don't like women and
Speaker 2: I'm never going to hire another woman. And I don't
Speaker 2: like you because you remind me of my wife and
Speaker 2: my wife is stupid, and wow, like it was the
Speaker 2: weirdest thing. He told me that, And I told one
Speaker 2: of my coworkers or my co workers, and they were
Speaker 2: all like, that's ridiculous.
Speaker 1: And then he had a meeting.
Speaker 2: Oh and he told me that in a meeting where
Speaker 2: he was asking me to sign on and stay with him.
Speaker 1: Wow, was weird.
Speaker 2: And then he had a meeting with another woman teacher
Speaker 2: did the same thing, and she came out and like, Jenny,
Speaker 2: I thought you were joking.
Speaker 1: Like, no, he fully did that.
Speaker 2: Or one of our male coworkers went to our boss
Speaker 2: and told him, like, you have to stop telling the
Speaker 2: women that you don't like women, because weirdly, they don't
Speaker 2: like that. He was like, so weird, Okay, it's weird.
Speaker 2: And so he had a meeting with the third teacher
Speaker 2: after that. He's like, and David, teacher told me that
Speaker 2: I shouldn't tell you that I don't like women, but I.
Speaker 1: Don't like women. Oh my god.
Speaker 2: Anyway, I'm telling you all of this just to let
Speaker 2: you know how much we hated this guy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we were.
Speaker 2: We were at a like it was not a Christian
Speaker 2: hogwe it was a regular secular hogwe but he was
Speaker 2: a Christian and and he one day for Easter had
Speaker 2: a pastor come in and.
Speaker 3: Way had a pastor come in.
Speaker 2: Yes, he had a pastor come in and give a talk.
Speaker 2: And we were like, you shouldn't have a pastor come
Speaker 2: in because it's a secular school, Like that's not okay,
Speaker 2: and but he was insisting that he was going to
Speaker 2: do it. And he was like, but I don't know
Speaker 2: what to call when the pastor talks. And David, because
Speaker 2: he was on our side and hated him even though
Speaker 2: he was whatever, He's like, you know what you call
Speaker 2: it when a pastor talks, and you call it a
Speaker 2: missionary position. He was like, ah, yes, so the pastor
Speaker 2: will come and give a missionary position. And during the
Speaker 2: missionary position, all of everybody should.
Speaker 3: This guy sucks, Sally, It's okay, yeah, yeah, somebody raging misogynist.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, raging misogynists talking aboutary physician and everybody.
Speaker 1: Was just behind his back and it was great.
Speaker 4: That's incredible.
Speaker 3: Now I know Jen has a heart out, I do.
Speaker 1: But we all have to have crowns.
Speaker 4: It was very everyone has a heart out with a missions.
Speaker 3: Anything else was talking about your children's TV.
Speaker 4: Never getting hired again, not my adult show, not the
Speaker 4: show I'm jo running.
Speaker 3: Anything else to talk about from us? This episode was
Speaker 3: a banger.
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, it's a really it's a really good episode.
Speaker 4: It's a really good episode.
Speaker 6: Anybody do want to say though? It was a really
Speaker 6: good episode. And while at the beginning I was saying
Speaker 6: like it was kind of a one off, it was
Speaker 6: kind of a one off, but it was also like
Speaker 6: it was what he wanted to knew all along, was
Speaker 6: this kind of character work, Like one off episode is
Speaker 6: so that he can develop those characters and give them
Speaker 6: these moments. So you write the unibomber episode and then
Speaker 6: you make it really about like a new a new
Speaker 6: place in Jakar and Londo's relationship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, giving us a chance to see their internal what
Speaker 2: they're where they are at LANDI or we should probably
Speaker 2: talk a little bit about Lanier.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he got blown up, but he was okay, Yeah,
Speaker 3: he's a good.
Speaker 4: Dude, and he was like, I worry that I barred
Speaker 4: against the Maybe I.
Speaker 3: Should have let him die. No, I don't think it
Speaker 3: would have been better if you'd let him die. I
Speaker 3: don't think he's run the show. Worse I think is worse.
Speaker 3: I think that's probably true, but I think that worse.
Speaker 4: You've never committed a single.
Speaker 6: War crime.
Speaker 2: That we know.
Speaker 4: We know, we take it. What did you do.
Speaker 8: In your three years?
Speaker 4: You need a work for menu. What did you do?
Speaker 8: Did you.
Speaker 4: You didn't even see all beauty's being right now.
Speaker 3: I can feel so cute.
Speaker 8: Oh my god, you're the cutest boy I ever did.
Speaker 8: Shay the cutest boy. Shay, look good your face?
Speaker 4: Oh my god.
Speaker 7: See now other dogs look weird to me because he's
Speaker 7: got such a big head. Now when I see other
Speaker 7: dogs and like, what what happened in your head?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 4: When is it some narrow.
Speaker 9: I'm so used to his big head an old person's bicycle.
Speaker 3: Shade Yeller did good?
Speaker 6: Yeah, but also I wanted someone to tell him so
Speaker 6: his whole thing is like, I don't know if I
Speaker 6: did the right thing. Maybe I didn't do the right thing,
Speaker 6: Like you know I did it because life is valuable.
Speaker 6: Nobody said that Londo was sitting by your bedside for
Speaker 6: hours and hours.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, nobody told him that.
Speaker 6: I told him that, and I'm like, you know, and
Speaker 6: I was like, yeah.
Speaker 3: The joke, but he may not remember where he heard
Speaker 3: the joke exactly.
Speaker 4: That's true.
Speaker 3: Also, he was like, please don't let the Centaury government
Speaker 3: give me a medal I do not want.
Speaker 6: Also, why did doctor Franklin know the joke? He wasn't
Speaker 6: there when Londo told him. The joke going around, you.
Speaker 4: Know, anti Centaury sentiment might be.
Speaker 3: I think that's fine.
Speaker 1: In the that was the whole thing that was, like, Londo,
Speaker 1: I probably shouldn't tell you this joke because it's anti sentartic.
Speaker 1: That's probably GRAVI station Welckham exactly, Blockham because like I
Speaker 1: started the Jokelckham. Okay, yes, all right, I do think
Speaker 1: that might be.
Speaker 3: It's Blockhom like our crown.
Speaker 4: We should do this every time.
Speaker 2: I have a whole like list of effects. I could,
Speaker 2: like have a wolf.
Speaker 1: Hat I have. There's so many ways to put on
Speaker 1: my head and I never do and you've.
Speaker 4: Never done it. No, that's not fair. We don't have
Speaker 4: enough wolves for everybody. That's true.
Speaker 3: It's not a wolf.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry.
Speaker 4: No, both of us have the same Oh yeah, you're right.
Speaker 6: Look at that that I know that's twin.
Speaker 7: Yeah, we're so like Jen, that's crazy. We just get
Speaker 7: more like as time goes on.
Speaker 6: Oh see this guy, see the inside guy's ears are
Speaker 6: both flapped down.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they're both good.
Speaker 6: You're so pretty good son. Mine are really now squashy.
Speaker 9: Yeah, look at your face. You have never done it
Speaker 9: anything wrong in your life. You you are if you
Speaker 9: were running the show.
Speaker 3: Everyone, we should let you guys to look get him.
Speaker 4: He's so perfect.
Speaker 6: All right, all right, we're gonna talk about it.
Speaker 3: It's a great episode. Have fun talking about This was
Speaker 3: a load bearing episode by my friends. You have reached
Speaker 3: the most dangerous part of our journey, the Gray Council.
Speaker 3: Here we speak of things that must not be spoken.
Speaker 1: Secrets, betrayals, spoilers.
Speaker 3: If you are not ready, turned back now. But if
Speaker 3: you dare to proceed, I promise you it will be manificent.
Speaker 3: We forget a baldy.
Speaker 6: Well, let's see, I mean there was like, there isn't
Speaker 6: a ton to talk about it. I mean, well, yes,
Speaker 6: there is a little bit, because the monks are gonna
Speaker 6: stick around.
Speaker 2: That's the only thing that really I feel like, we
Speaker 2: have to talk about it, and I shouldn't.
Speaker 1: Have said that I reflected.
Speaker 6: Did I reflect it?
Speaker 1: Well, I mean I appreciated you to reflec ticket.
Speaker 2: Yes, although to be quite frank, Gus might know this, yeah,
Speaker 2: because I don't know if you remember this right when
Speaker 2: we started, like before we actually even recorded, yeah, or
Speaker 2: maybe after we recorded like a couple of episodes. Dus
Speaker 2: sent me a message saying that he had a really
Speaker 2: good friend who wants to be on the episode with the.
Speaker 6: Monks, so right, and you said you didn't know which one, yes,
Speaker 6: because so yeah.
Speaker 2: It was this was like two years ago whatever, this
Speaker 2: is before we started, yes, And so he might have
Speaker 2: it in the back of his mind that there are
Speaker 2: more than one ye monk episode.
Speaker 6: Yes, because you were you were like, I'm not sure
Speaker 6: what that means, exactly what does it mean? And then
Speaker 6: he came through and told you exactly which one?
Speaker 2: Yeah, because I had to be like, I had to
Speaker 2: ask for clarification because yeah, there are multiple episodes with monks.
Speaker 1: Technically we already.
Speaker 6: Had monks last season though, because we did have the
Speaker 6: downstairs the down below monks that were singing.
Speaker 2: Yes like that, yes, and it is specified Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and it is specified in the Lurker's Guide that they
Speaker 2: are not the same months, and obviously, I mean these
Speaker 2: months come from from other places.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but that was it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah he might though, Yeah, I don't know, because,
Speaker 2: like you said, that was like it was a while
Speaker 2: ago and I'm gonna have to But also I.
Speaker 6: Think, yeah, gusin Ellie being becoming savvyer nineties watchers, you know,
Speaker 6: you and I both know too, Like there was just
Speaker 6: a gravitas to that character. I mean, you know, you
Speaker 6: know the actors is the actor who played Draw, but
Speaker 6: there was a gravitas to his character coming in and
Speaker 6: just sort of like he just sort of took command
Speaker 6: of the scenes he was in in a really beautiful
Speaker 6: way and but also in a way of like we'll
Speaker 6: be seeing you again next week, like you know what
Speaker 6: i mean, like get at some point, like I mean,
Speaker 6: whether I'm sure that JMS was like, yeah, you're going
Speaker 6: to be around for a few when he brought and
Speaker 6: he even says in the Lurkers Guide, you know, when
Speaker 6: he couldn't come back as Drawl, we really knew we
Speaker 6: wanted to get him in for an even better part,
Speaker 6: and now we have, so he kind of gives it
Speaker 6: up right there as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I mean maybe it's like it's hard for
Speaker 2: me to say because obviously I've seen him in this role.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I feel like this hits him better.
Speaker 6: Yeah I did. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2: The only other thing I like, like, there's not much
Speaker 2: future stuff to talk about, but the only the one
Speaker 2: that I could think of is they said Proxima three, like, uh,
Speaker 2: the bomber guy had bombed on Proxima three and GUSCINALI
Speaker 2: jumped to lease, right, and I don't know, Lisa is
Speaker 2: on Mars.
Speaker 1: Proximate three is a completely different colin Yeah, I don't know. Well,
Speaker 1: maybe they're thinking it's Mars.
Speaker 6: Well then I had the moment of thinking like because
Speaker 6: that was the one that I didn't watch with you guys, right,
Speaker 6: But then I was like, wait, am I confused?
Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, no, yeah, so I was confused by
Speaker 2: why they did. But I guess you know, if we
Speaker 2: actually didn't have a colony on Mars, there would be
Speaker 2: things on Mars that would be named stuff like that.
Speaker 2: But no, I know that Proxima three is another colony
Speaker 2: because it actually is irrelevant. It is relevant that it's
Speaker 2: another colony in future episodes.
Speaker 6: So yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I was just like, what why are you okay, Lese,
Speaker 2: all right, why okay, I'll let it go.
Speaker 6: They just want to get a rise out of you.
Speaker 6: And I say, Lise's that's.
Speaker 1: What it is. That's what it is.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, that's right. The other thing that I thought
Speaker 6: was like that we didn't it, which is interesting because
Speaker 6: of course it's not surprising, but like, so we had
Speaker 6: Jeff Conaway listed as main cast in the last episode,
Speaker 6: but he did almost nothing in the last episode. Was
Speaker 6: he even in the last episode?
Speaker 1: In the first like the first yeah, yeah.
Speaker 6: So then so then he shows up in this one
Speaker 6: and we're like, oh, we're gonna get some good kiniki,
Speaker 6: and we got a lot of good kiniki in the
Speaker 6: first three minutes and then nothing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, oh we didn't.
Speaker 2: We didn't actually even talk about this in the in
Speaker 2: the because the episode got so good after that. I
Speaker 2: do like that first part, but there is a lot
Speaker 2: of cultural insensitivity in the humor that happened at the beginning. Yeah,
Speaker 2: like I don't know the name of every god from
Speaker 2: another culture, so I might pronounce it.
Speaker 6: But like the dismissiveness, the dismissiveness of Garbaldi, and then
Speaker 6: Garibaldi doing it was one thing, and then can I
Speaker 6: be doing it with another different, wrong version of it?
Speaker 6: Like my boss doesn't care, so I don't care either,
Speaker 6: And I was just like there was so many elements
Speaker 6: of like such nineties culture of like other ing and
Speaker 6: xenophobia and yeah and yeah it was really yeah really, But.
Speaker 2: I did appreciate the way he deflected them from poking him, though,
Speaker 2: because I would also like, okay, and I want to
Speaker 2: respect your culture, but don't poke me right, like, well
Speaker 2: it wasn't just my culture.
Speaker 6: It is like that. It was interesting too, like although
Speaker 6: I do wish that he had said I wasn't in
Speaker 6: I wasn't in the atrium, but that plant was like,
Speaker 6: but instead he said I don't feel like sharing it.
Speaker 6: I was like, yeah, I don't want to share my
Speaker 6: bloss here me lasting, which is also just a fun line.
Speaker 6: I mean, truthfully, a funny line. But it's like you're
Speaker 6: a dick cherry blessing.
Speaker 1: None of the poking me.
Speaker 6: This is true, this is true. Well this is interesting though,
Speaker 6: but like this show. Right after that, and we had
Speaker 6: the guy with linear touching his bald head and that's true.
Speaker 6: And we've had it in the past too, from like
Speaker 6: boomshah Baaba to Doctor Franklin like touching her bud and
Speaker 6: like whatever. Like we just we have this like very tall,
Speaker 6: touchy culture in the nineties. Yes, but it like yeah,
Speaker 6: there's yeah, I'm uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: Just I'm wondering. Yeah, I'm wondering.
Speaker 2: Like there, I said this to you, like before we
Speaker 2: even started recording, I said this to you at Walcard.
Speaker 2: Like the way that acting has evolved over time, you
Speaker 2: can see it, and I'm wondering if some of that
Speaker 2: is like you know, if you watch theater, everything is
Speaker 2: larger than life and they have to over exaggerate it.
Speaker 2: I feel like acting has become more and more subtle.
Speaker 2: I guess as our cameras and our ts. So like
Speaker 2: this might be just a progression of like we need
Speaker 2: to show the invasiveness. At a current show, they might
Speaker 2: just show somebody people standing too close and lurking, but
Speaker 2: in a previous show, we have to show how they're
Speaker 2: being invasive. Oh there has to be physical content.
Speaker 6: Yeah, yes, I would agree with that. I would agree
Speaker 6: with that. I mean I think that as part of
Speaker 6: it is like the television at the time was a
Speaker 6: little more show. We like, it was a little more
Speaker 6: telegraphing the things that you needed to telegraph. But I
Speaker 6: think so we got called out on this. One's in
Speaker 6: comments on YouTube, and I want to I'm going to
Speaker 6: just like, I want to set to set it to
Speaker 6: rights here a little bit, because this isn't what we
Speaker 6: intend to. When we said this, we were like, people
Speaker 6: aren't repeat viewing, or or someone accused us of saying, like,
Speaker 6: what do you mean right, or what do you mean
Speaker 6: people weren't aren't repeat viewing television In the nineties, they
Speaker 6: absolutely did. Yes, reruns were a real thing. That's how
Speaker 6: I saw half about the Babylon five was in reruns
Speaker 6: because I would like, I wasn't consistently watching it every week,
Speaker 6: and I caught some of it over the summer, and
Speaker 6: I caught some of it when they were in LA
Speaker 6: like five weeks or three weeks of really so yeah
Speaker 6: and so, and like when it was like sometimes out
Speaker 6: of sequence, and then I was like, what's going on?
Speaker 6: And so no, people absolutely rewatched. And yes, of course
Speaker 6: by the late nineties people had VCRs and they were like,
Speaker 6: I mean, you know, there were shows that I was
Speaker 6: programming and like recording every week because you didn't want
Speaker 6: to miss it, and so if you weren't going to
Speaker 6: be there, you had to record it. So people were
Speaker 6: absolutely repeat watching. But it wasn't like today. It wasn't
Speaker 6: like binging where you could watch it so fast that
Speaker 6: you didn't forget what happened three episodes ago, because it
Speaker 6: hasn't been six weeks. You watched it yesterday, And people
Speaker 6: can so easily just be like, wait, what did they
Speaker 6: say in that last episode that is relevant?
Speaker 2: Now?
Speaker 6: Hang on, and you just go you jump back and
Speaker 6: you watch it, and that level of that level of
Speaker 6: being able to suss out, like we can just be
Speaker 6: a lot more subtle today and we can hide things
Speaker 6: and and or can confuse us for a few episodes
Speaker 6: because people watch differently, and you know, and they expect that.
Speaker 6: And in the nineties people, I'm not saying we expected
Speaker 6: to be spoon fed, but people expected that you'd have
Speaker 6: to repeat something because someone missed last week's episode because
Speaker 6: they because because it was graduation, you know, like people
Speaker 6: just missed stuff and they didn't get it recorded and
Speaker 6: they couldn't just go back and watch it. So you
Speaker 6: had to in the same way that this always makes
Speaker 6: me crazy, but I'm gonna here's a wheel of time reference.
Speaker 6: But in the first several Wheel of Time books, you know,
Speaker 6: Jordan re explains everything at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Here's the higher magic system and Randolph.
Speaker 6: Floor is a tall boy with red hair, and you're like, I've.
Speaker 2: Read the other floor, so you know, stop explaining to
Speaker 2: me about side R and side eaed.
Speaker 6: I know exactly. It's definitely there was a little bit
Speaker 6: of that too, because you would pick up new viewers
Speaker 6: in ninety five, like starting the show and fall of
Speaker 6: ninety five, you'd be picking up new viewers who weren't
Speaker 6: there in the beginning and then who wanted to watch
Speaker 6: the other ones, but they weren't necessarily easily available, so
Speaker 6: you did have to catch them up. And yeah, and
Speaker 6: so anyway, like again, like with last week's beautiful exposition
Speaker 6: by Ivanava being like blah blah blah blah blah blah blah,
Speaker 6: I fucking pay attention.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, because I very much noticed it in the
Speaker 2: last episode. And that is like the huge difference now
Speaker 2: is to me, what the huge difference now is nobody
Speaker 2: misses episodes like if you if I don't watch, if
Speaker 2: I can't watch the next episode or an episode because
Speaker 2: of graduation or whenever I miss it this week, and
Speaker 2: I can watch it like in two weeks.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to start with this week's episode.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go back and watch the other episodes
Speaker 2: because they're there, Yeah, which is like that's they're all.
Speaker 2: Every episode is always available to you, and so that
Speaker 2: especially the serialized television network television tends. The network television
Speaker 2: shows that I know of tend to be one off shows.
Speaker 2: You got your lawn, Like, you don't need to watch
Speaker 2: every law in order to understand a law and order.
Speaker 6: Which is why you can get twenty seasons of something
Speaker 6: like JAG or Law and Order, because you're like, I
Speaker 6: know the characters well enough, and I know that every
Speaker 6: episode is gonna just like I don't have to know
Speaker 6: everything from the last episode to follow along. Yeah, and
Speaker 6: that's why those shows running for so long. People love
Speaker 6: that too. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well that I mean law like shows like Law and
Speaker 2: Order or like whatever those are My I'm putting them
Speaker 2: on because they're comforting. It's like we're gonna catch the
Speaker 2: bad guy. I really don't need to pay attention. They'll
Speaker 2: just tell me what's happening, and so that's what that is. Yes, anyway,
Speaker 2: we should Babylon five this episode, Like I said, not
Speaker 2: that because it is a one up, but it's to me,
Speaker 2: it's such a good one up because it's such a
Speaker 2: It deeps into their character and you see that you
Speaker 2: still see that there is good in Lawndo, which I guess.
Speaker 2: I guess that's necessary to like to keep to remind
Speaker 2: us of that because we're gonna we're gonna have to.
Speaker 2: You don't have to. You can just completely give up
Speaker 2: on him and continue the story. But I feel like, but.
Speaker 6: That doesn't as he starts, Yeah, we care because of
Speaker 6: where his story is going, and we care about you know, yeah,
Speaker 6: like you could. Well, I mean, I've I've made this
Speaker 6: connection before, I've made this, I've made this, I've talked
Speaker 6: about this before. But it's a Jamie Lanister of it.
Speaker 6: Like he started so horrible that once we started realizing
Speaker 6: we were actually rooting for him and caring about him,
Speaker 6: we were like, oh, what's wrong with me that I
Speaker 6: like this guy? And then but which is a really
Speaker 6: interesting twist. It's the opposite of Londo because we all
Speaker 6: loved his clownishness at the beginning, and then all of
Speaker 6: a sudden, here we are like saying he can't be redeemed,
Speaker 6: he can't be redeemed, he's horrible. But instead what we're
Speaker 6: seeing is that he's like we want, we want, we
Speaker 6: wanted to, We still want him to be redeemed, we
Speaker 6: still want his redemption. And when he does things like
Speaker 6: sip Bylinear's thing and like just quietly monologue, I'll I'm
Speaker 6: going to let you talk, but if you don't, I'm
Speaker 6: gonna talk, you know, like, it's just beautiful and we
Speaker 6: want that person to be redeemed. And it's also hope
Speaker 6: for all of us very fucking the horrible thing that
Speaker 6: we've done, which hopefully are not nearly as bad as
Speaker 6: London's work crime again exactly hopefully, but you know, hopefully. Nonetheless,
Speaker 6: we do, you know, we do, we do hope that
Speaker 6: that there will be that we can all be forgiven
Speaker 6: or redeemed at some point.
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, And yeah, I think like
Speaker 2: something like this episode is necessary. I'm just remembering things
Speaker 2: that Londo does and says later on, it's just like,
Speaker 2: oh yeah, if we don't have reminders of that, he
Speaker 2: has like like something in him that is still good.
Speaker 2: There's like scenes later on where he talks like a
Speaker 2: new representative from narn is sent to Babylon five, and
Speaker 2: he very callously asks him questions like some are the
Speaker 2: work camps going? Well, like, it's just so you would
Speaker 2: he would be irredeemable if they didn't.
Speaker 1: Every once in a while, just like a little bump
Speaker 1: of you like him.
Speaker 2: Remember, okay, now you can Okay, I just remember this
Speaker 2: is in him, remember, so yeah, Yeah, people were talking
Speaker 2: about the floating crime the floating cameras in the lookers guys, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I didn't see did you see them? No?
Speaker 6: I think I was trying to figure out what they
Speaker 6: were talking about, because he this is one of those
Speaker 6: things that he's like responding to something that we don't
Speaker 6: know what was said or asked exactly. He says, what
Speaker 6: are the floating discs and the crime scene? I didn't
Speaker 6: see them either, Okay, I don't know.
Speaker 2: I didn't see them. He does reply to that by saying, like,
Speaker 2: they're not gravity defying, they're made of extremely ultra light
Speaker 2: material with fans, and they're zoo like they're drawing. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but I didn't see them, and I'm not visual. I've
Speaker 2: said this a bajillion times. I don't notice small things often,
Speaker 2: and I I just didn't notice it. And this time around,
Speaker 2: I was like prime to know to him because I
Speaker 2: read this ahead.
Speaker 6: And Allie and gust didn't say anything, and that that's
Speaker 6: like Gus would normally catch that in a heartbeat. I
Speaker 6: think they were not very I wonder if they were
Speaker 6: taken out of this version. No, never, no, they were.
Speaker 1: I truly don't know. I truly don't know.
Speaker 2: He's talking about the bomber here and he says, it's
Speaker 2: not like everybody knew he was a certified nut case.
Speaker 1: At the time.
Speaker 2: He didn't have and I did to car that said
Speaker 2: certified netcase. He worked as a station maintenance. Nobody knew
Speaker 2: Timothy McVeagh was a knot until he drew up a bill.
Speaker 6: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2: But it just irritates me that people talk about it,
Speaker 2: like we don't know I was a racist. He was
Speaker 2: a racist white supersis. Yeah, it's just this again. At
Speaker 2: this time, I don't know what people knew, but it's
Speaker 2: known now.
Speaker 6: I feel like we knew Mike. Maybe I'm wrong, I mean,
Speaker 6: didn't we know he was associated with the Michigan militia
Speaker 6: pretty quickly. I don't I feel like we did. I
Speaker 6: don't know, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's possible.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he says, Doug, that would be Doug Lissenetter.
Speaker 2: Doug's reaction to Netter's syndrome was amused, chagrined, and the
Speaker 2: promise of swift and terrible revenge.
Speaker 6: You gotta enjoy that.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 2: The only other thing I think that I want to
Speaker 2: mention here is we're two episodes in, granted, but Jmus
Speaker 2: did write the last I think four or five episodes
Speaker 2: of the previous season. He wrote everything from Knives on
Speaker 2: out or everything after Knives.
Speaker 6: I think you write knives.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm waiting for them to catch on that. It's
Speaker 2: like it's a yet another jam.
Speaker 6: They still don't say it. They still haven't. They'll have it,
Speaker 6: I know, I know. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: So that's that's the only thing I'm I'm curious about
Speaker 2: when it's going to happen at a certain point. If
Speaker 2: they don't bring it up, we're gonna have to tell them.
Speaker 1: But we will, we will. Yeah. So yeah, he wrote knives.
Speaker 2: Okay, so yeah, everything that that would be the last
Speaker 2: is how many episodes in the last season.
Speaker 1: So he wrote the last six episodes of last season
Speaker 1: and then this the first and then from here on out.
Speaker 6: So yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, they're gonna they're gonna catch
Speaker 6: out soon, they like, if we get a few more,
Speaker 6: and they'll have to be like yeah, but they didn't they.
Speaker 6: I thought they mentioned it or noticed it tonight, but
Speaker 6: we didn't really talk about it. But it also felt
Speaker 6: like such a JMS episode.
Speaker 1: Yeah, very much so.
Speaker 2: And I don't like, I feel like it makes it's
Speaker 2: not notable that he's writing the first episode or the
Speaker 2: first few, because that feels right, that's what a show run.
Speaker 1: The showrunner wants to set the tone.
Speaker 6: And yeah, of course, of course, yeah yeah, although I
Speaker 6: mean it doesn't like necessarily by season three. That shouldn't
Speaker 6: have to be the case. I mean in season one
Speaker 6: for sure, but you know, yeah.
Speaker 1: That's it unless you have something.
Speaker 6: No, I have nothing else. I have nothing else.
Speaker 1: No, you got to get to yourself to a comedy show.
Speaker 1: I know. Yes, So that's it. Uh for this episode,
Speaker 1: it's a bit of a shorter one.
Speaker 2: I will apologize general say, no, it's good, dudes, that's
Speaker 2: what happened last time anyway. But yeah, you can always
Speaker 2: check out our Reaction, which is up on YouTube. You
Speaker 2: can go to our Patreon and get an unedited version
Speaker 2: of the reaction, and there's also extra stuff that we
Speaker 2: drop up there sometimes as well. You get AD free
Speaker 2: versions of the audio version of this podcast. You get
Speaker 2: that uh secret secret channel in the discord, super secret.
Speaker 2: Never any we have very secret conversations anyway. And yeah,
Speaker 2: like subscribe, rate, review, hype us up, and.
Speaker 1: We'll see you next time.
Speaker 6: See you next time.
Speaker 1: Babylon the