WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.680 Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey 2 00:00:03.680 --> 00:00:08.519 continues with chapter twelve of Quintusilmarillion of Men. Yes. Chapter 3 00:00:08.519 --> 00:00:11.960 twelve introduces a mysterious new intelligent species to Middle Earth, 4 00:00:12.359 --> 00:00:15.839 the Atani, that is, the mortal people of mankind, and 5 00:00:15.880 --> 00:00:18.559 speaks of their first contact with the elves of bealeriond 6 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.280 Over the next several months will continue revisiting the entire 7 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:25.280 thirty episode Selm Million series that Greta and I recorded 8 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:28.519 back in twenty twenty two. While you're listening, check out 9 00:00:28.559 --> 00:00:33.520 Silmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for guides to 10 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:36.679 individual chapters. You can find that link in the show notes. 11 00:00:37.439 --> 00:00:40.039 To support our work here, please visit Patreon dot com 12 00:00:40.039 --> 00:00:44.920 slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to 13 00:00:44.960 --> 00:00:48.079 The Tolkien Road, Episode two ninety one. Greta, you ready 14 00:00:48.119 --> 00:00:49.399 for a manly discussion? 15 00:00:50.039 --> 00:00:51.119 A manly discussion? 16 00:00:51.240 --> 00:00:53.679 Yes? Oh it's a discussion of men. 17 00:00:54.960 --> 00:00:59.479 Oh right, yeah, well then I guess I am wow. 18 00:00:59.600 --> 00:01:01.240 Absolutely good. 19 00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:03.640 In this episode, we will be discussing chapter twelve of 20 00:01:03.640 --> 00:01:08.319 the sommer Million of Men of Men. Yes, men, yeah, 21 00:01:08.439 --> 00:01:11.200 not really great for the search engine you know, it's 22 00:01:11.239 --> 00:01:13.480 not really like any interesting keywords in there. It's just 23 00:01:13.519 --> 00:01:15.400 like of men talking about of men. 24 00:01:16.680 --> 00:01:19.920 All right, maybe maybe if you put mice in. 25 00:01:19.920 --> 00:01:24.079 There, Oh well, then it would be a John Steinbeck podcast. 26 00:01:24.319 --> 00:01:28.640 That's why it sounds familiar. Yeah, okay, moving. 27 00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:31.040 On, moving on, all right, before we get started, we'd 28 00:01:31.040 --> 00:01:32.799 like to give a double up air five to our patrons. 29 00:01:33.879 --> 00:01:37.040 Get them up there, you've been duly warned. Three to 30 00:01:37.079 --> 00:01:43.439 two one woops boom special thanks to this episode's executive producers, 31 00:01:43.599 --> 00:01:46.640 John R. Caitlin of t with Tolkien and Jacob Lockham, 32 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:50.079 and a shout out to our newest patron, Michael W 33 00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:51.439 who made an annual pledge. 34 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:54.000 Nice thanks Michael, thank you so much. 35 00:01:54.120 --> 00:01:58.159 Yeah, thank you so much. Appreciate your generous pledge. And 36 00:01:59.599 --> 00:02:02.079 just as we appreciate all of our patrons their generous 37 00:02:02.079 --> 00:02:05.760 pledging for sure, welcome to their ranks, the ranks of 38 00:02:05.799 --> 00:02:10.719 the generous. All right, Hey, YouTube can become a extremely 39 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:14.800 good looking, generous patron by visiting patreon dot com slash 40 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.560 Tolkien road with that too, patronizing. I'm patronizing our patrons 41 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:20.719 right doing so, get you cool perks like twenty percent 42 00:02:20.759 --> 00:02:23.879 off of everything at true misspress dot com. Plus, your 43 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:26.960 financial support helps The Tolkien Road to keep on everring on. 44 00:02:27.680 --> 00:02:31.120 Learn more at patreon dot com slash Tolkien Road. Yeah 45 00:02:31.439 --> 00:02:35.120 do it hey YouTube, Hit that like button, don't forget 46 00:02:35.159 --> 00:02:37.400 to subscribe and let us know what's on your mind. 47 00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:44.680 And the comments below also drop us five stars. If 48 00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:47.240 you're a fan of The Tolkien Road on iTunes or 49 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:49.199 wherever it is you listen to podcasts, right, give us 50 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:51.439 that high rating and tell the world while you love us, right, 51 00:02:51.639 --> 00:02:54.639 we love reading those things on air, so your comments 52 00:02:54.680 --> 00:02:57.840 on air so makes us feel all special and warm 53 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:03.240 and fuzzy inside. So all right, hey, live stream, So 54 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:06.400 sorry about April. We've had a whole lot going on 55 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:08.319 for the last month, and every time we tried to 56 00:03:08.319 --> 00:03:12.400 get something on the schedule, something came up, and we 57 00:03:12.400 --> 00:03:14.680 thought we had it ready to go at last night, 58 00:03:14.719 --> 00:03:17.400 which was you know this, so that would have been 59 00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:20.400 May fifth. The evening of May fifth was all right, 60 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:23.680 we're gonna do it May fifth, and we just had 61 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.879 too much going on and could make it happen. So 62 00:03:27.919 --> 00:03:31.680 we do apologize. Thank you all for understanding. Hopefully, hopefully 63 00:03:31.680 --> 00:03:34.039 we'll be able to do an extra long live stream 64 00:03:34.080 --> 00:03:34.919 towards the end of. 65 00:03:34.879 --> 00:03:37.759 May, and we just want to make sure that we're 66 00:03:37.759 --> 00:03:42.360 always giving you guys our best, and sometimes we just 67 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:44.960 we just don't have it and we don't want to 68 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:49.280 gyp you guys. So we appreciate you understanding, and we 69 00:03:49.319 --> 00:03:52.919 look forward to doing a marathon. Maybe should we say 70 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:56.560 a marathon live stream of May to May marriage. 71 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:58.840 It's going to be literally twenty six point two hours. 72 00:03:59.240 --> 00:04:00.080 Twenty six point two. 73 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:00.759 I meant it more. 74 00:04:01.120 --> 00:04:03.080 Figure it, oh, like, in terms of how long it 75 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.159 takes you to run a marathon, I got you so 76 00:04:05.319 --> 00:04:07.639 like four hours. 77 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:10.639 I don't know. Could I do a marathon in four hours? 78 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:13.479 Probably neither one of us could do a marathon at all, 79 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:16.000 so you might be able to pull one off. I 80 00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:19.120 definitely could not do a whole marathon at this point 81 00:04:19.240 --> 00:04:21.399 right now. Maybe if I trained for a long time. 82 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:23.439 You run a lot, though. 83 00:04:23.319 --> 00:04:26.800 So do so I don't run super long distances though, so, so. 84 00:04:26.759 --> 00:04:28.800 Just to punish ourselves, I will be here on the 85 00:04:28.800 --> 00:04:31.639 live stream and Gretel will be live streaming separately while 86 00:04:31.680 --> 00:04:32.240 she runs a. 87 00:04:32.160 --> 00:04:38.519 Mara there you go, Oh that's fun. Or we could 88 00:04:38.560 --> 00:04:40.920 just live stream while I run. It doesn't have to 89 00:04:40.920 --> 00:04:41.639 be a marathon. 90 00:04:44.560 --> 00:04:47.800 I like the marathon idea. It was your suggestion. I'm 91 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:50.720 just saying I'm the one that brought it up. All right, 92 00:04:51.279 --> 00:04:53.600 enough of that nonsense. We'll get We'll make it up 93 00:04:53.639 --> 00:04:56.879 to you guys. You know, it's just really busy for 94 00:04:56.959 --> 00:04:59.560 us right now. Hopefully that's going to be all over, 95 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:01.360 you know, here in the next few weeks. The big 96 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:03.040 things that got us extra busy right now are going 97 00:05:03.120 --> 00:05:05.879 to be kind of smooth, steady state in a few weeks, 98 00:05:05.920 --> 00:05:07.959 and we'll be able to do a nice longer one 99 00:05:08.120 --> 00:05:11.279 at the end of May. So thank you for understanding it, guess, 100 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:14.040 thank you, all right. Tolkien Quote of the Week. So 101 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:17.120 early in chapter twelve, which would be the chapter that 102 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:21.319 we are currently in, to Hilldorian, there came no Vala 103 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:23.519 to guide men, or to summon them to dwell in 104 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:26.399 valen Or. And men have feared the Valor rather than 105 00:05:26.439 --> 00:05:29.560 love them, and have not understood the purpose of the powers, 106 00:05:30.079 --> 00:05:33.519 being at variance with them and at strife with the world. 107 00:05:34.240 --> 00:05:39.399 So yeah, I thought that was a interesting little thought 108 00:05:39.439 --> 00:05:43.040 that the Vala did not really aid men when they awoke, 109 00:05:43.079 --> 00:05:44.439 and as they did the elves. 110 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:49.319 Yeah, definitely some preferential treatment going on, I would say, 111 00:05:50.279 --> 00:05:55.000 and the men in return really didn't have much love 112 00:05:55.560 --> 00:05:56.240 for the Valor. 113 00:05:56.519 --> 00:06:02.000 Ye, well, more fear, you know, and fear well to 114 00:06:02.000 --> 00:06:03.759 some degrae. I feel like that's what happened with elves 115 00:06:03.759 --> 00:06:06.279 initially until the Valar showed up, right, you know, the 116 00:06:06.399 --> 00:06:09.560 Melkor kind of like convinced them that they should fear, 117 00:06:10.639 --> 00:06:11.879 you know, fear the Valar. 118 00:06:12.319 --> 00:06:13.759 Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. 119 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.879 Anyway, we'll talk more about this shortly. Well, let's dive 120 00:06:17.920 --> 00:06:21.720 into chapter twelve. So, with the sun having risen upon 121 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:23.879 Middle Earth for the first time, we finally meet the 122 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:28.240 younger children of a Luvatar men. In chapter twelve, we'll 123 00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:31.480 learn about the awakening of men, discover the various names 124 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:35.040 given to men by the Eldar, explore the relationship between 125 00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:38.720 men and the Valar, and much more. And as with 126 00:06:38.759 --> 00:06:41.160 each episode, we won't be covering every detail of this chapter, 127 00:06:41.519 --> 00:06:43.360 but instead doing our best to hit the high points 128 00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.480 and unpack interesting and important details. If we miss something, 129 00:06:46.519 --> 00:06:52.920 you guys want to discuss more, let us know. So timeline, 130 00:06:52.920 --> 00:06:56.000 where are we on the timeline of the Middle Earth history? 131 00:06:56.240 --> 00:07:01.920 So using the War the Jewels here, which is the 132 00:07:01.959 --> 00:07:05.600 eleventh volume of the History of Middle Earth series. This 133 00:07:05.920 --> 00:07:09.920 particular chapter really is dated to Year of the Sun one, 134 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:12.560 which is Year of the Trees fifteen hundred. So, as 135 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:15.399 we will learn shortly, this is the moment at which 136 00:07:17.079 --> 00:07:19.759 Middle Earth history is broken off from the from counting 137 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:21.560 in terms of the year of the Trees, years of 138 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:24.959 the Trees to the years of the Sun. Right, so 139 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:28.399 we kind of begin a new timeline. It's almost like 140 00:07:28.439 --> 00:07:31.720 a BCAD thing, okay, except just not like counting down 141 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.879 BC two AD. It's like just one group of years 142 00:07:35.000 --> 00:07:37.800 of numbering sequences and then it starts a new one. 143 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:40.800 So this is Year of the Trees fifteen hundred slash 144 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:45.240 Year of the Sun one. So there you go. 145 00:07:45.240 --> 00:07:45.680 Good deal. 146 00:07:45.959 --> 00:07:47.959 Yeah all right. 147 00:07:48.040 --> 00:07:52.600 So so wait, so Year of the Sun one that's 148 00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:54.600 what marks the coming of men? 149 00:07:54.879 --> 00:08:01.000 Yes? Yeah, cool. So let's let's read a little bit 150 00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:05.240 of from the opening here about the second spring of Arda. So, Greta, 151 00:08:05.279 --> 00:08:07.519 would you like to read this highlighted. 152 00:08:07.000 --> 00:08:11.240 Paradigm, be delighted? From this time forth we reckon the 153 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:14.800 years of the Sun. Swifter and briefer are they than 154 00:08:14.839 --> 00:08:18.360 the long years of the trees and ballenorme In that time, 155 00:08:18.519 --> 00:08:21.360 the air of Middle Earth became heavy with the breath 156 00:08:21.399 --> 00:08:25.120 of growth and mortality, and the changing and aging of 157 00:08:25.199 --> 00:08:29.759 all things was hastened exceedingly. Life teamed upon the soil 158 00:08:29.959 --> 00:08:32.320 and in the waters in the second Spring of Arda, 159 00:08:32.759 --> 00:08:36.679 and the Eldar increased, and beneath the new sun Balarion 160 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:38.000 grew green and fair. 161 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:45.759 Yeah. So the second Spring of Arda, the the elder increased. 162 00:08:45.960 --> 00:08:48.919 But as do really all things, right, and the growth 163 00:08:49.799 --> 00:08:55.840 and mortality increase as well, right, So, and that's all 164 00:08:56.000 --> 00:08:57.879 with the coming of the Sun, with the coming of 165 00:08:57.879 --> 00:09:01.759 the Sun upon Middle Earth. So and these years are, 166 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:04.080 as you know, you've probably picked up on by now, 167 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:07.840 the years of the sun are are quicker, right than 168 00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:11.200 the years of the trees. So one year of the sun, 169 00:09:11.720 --> 00:09:14.159 I'm sorry, one year of the trees is equivalent to 170 00:09:14.200 --> 00:09:16.320 ten years of the sun. So a year of the 171 00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:18.879 sun is one tenth roughly of a year of the trees. 172 00:09:19.600 --> 00:09:27.279 So yeah, So with this rising of the Sun we 173 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:33.639 meet men. And it says that they awaken in kind 174 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:36.080 of the far east, the eastward regions of Middle Earth, 175 00:09:38.240 --> 00:09:44.000 in a land called hill Dorian. Right, So I was 176 00:09:44.080 --> 00:09:46.080 thinking about this name, and it turns out, well, Hill 177 00:09:46.120 --> 00:09:50.320 Dorian probably just means the land of the followers, right, So, 178 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:52.559 because it says just after this we're gonna get to 179 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:55.399 the names here, but it says that men were one 180 00:09:55.440 --> 00:09:57.000 of their names given to them by the Eldar were 181 00:09:57.039 --> 00:10:00.919 the Hilldor, right, the followers, and this is hill in right, 182 00:10:01.440 --> 00:10:08.200 So land the followers. Yeah, it's in the far east. 183 00:10:08.279 --> 00:10:12.159 And of course initially they experienced the sun rising in 184 00:10:12.159 --> 00:10:14.320 the west, right. We talked about that last chapter, this 185 00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:18.679 phenomenon of the sun rising in the west initially, and 186 00:10:18.960 --> 00:10:22.279 so they're drawn, they're drawn westward, initially towards you know, 187 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:28.639 really towards Vaalin or Okay, and and they wander over 188 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:32.159 the earth, you know, for some period of time. Now, 189 00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.679 as far as their names go, I'm gonna read this one, Greta, 190 00:10:35.720 --> 00:10:39.519 because I know you you struggle with the namings as 191 00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:42.080 do I, and not great at it. But you know, 192 00:10:42.120 --> 00:10:44.039 I know you you're always like. 193 00:10:44.600 --> 00:10:47.000 Self conscious about mispronunciation. 194 00:10:47.200 --> 00:10:49.279 Well, whenever you're going up against Tolkien, you know, and 195 00:10:49.320 --> 00:10:52.679 his words, his special words, you're always a little like 196 00:10:53.159 --> 00:10:56.519 I get self conscious too, right, But I'll read this 197 00:10:56.600 --> 00:10:58.559 all right, So what were the some of the names 198 00:10:58.559 --> 00:11:01.559 and what do they mean? The Atani. They were named 199 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:04.200 by the Eldar, the second people, but they called them 200 00:11:04.240 --> 00:11:08.240 also Hildor, the followers, and many other names apan Onnar, 201 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:14.000 the afterborn, Ngwar, the sickly, and Fierimar, the mortals, and 202 00:11:14.039 --> 00:11:17.000 they named them the Usurpers, the strangers and the inscrutable, 203 00:11:17.080 --> 00:11:19.759 the self cursed, the heavy handed, the night fears, the 204 00:11:19.840 --> 00:11:24.039 children of the Sun. So it strikes me that most 205 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:27.440 of these names are not really like very friendly names. 206 00:11:27.440 --> 00:11:33.039 They're complimentary, they're not They're kind of derogatory. Yeah, yeah, 207 00:11:33.080 --> 00:11:33.559 what do you think? 208 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.720 No, I totally agree. I know when I was reading 209 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:37.919 this the first time, I was like, oh, not a 210 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:41.279 whole lot of love lost between these these two races here. 211 00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:42.559 Yeah. 212 00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:46.879 Yeah, it's almost like they're highlighting all the ways in 213 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:53.919 which men are different and maybe even inferior to the elves, right, 214 00:11:54.039 --> 00:11:59.559 like they came. They're followers, not leaders, right, they're the 215 00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:06.879 second out the first. They are sick, all right, they're mortal. 216 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:12.519 Elves are immortal, Yeah, Usurper, stranger, I mean it's really 217 00:12:12.840 --> 00:12:15.679 the self curse. Yeah, I mean I don't think there's 218 00:12:15.720 --> 00:12:19.039 any The only one that's maybe mildly positive would be 219 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:19.840 Children of the Sun. 220 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:21.440 Yeah, I was going to say, Children of the Sun 221 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:23.360 has a has a nice ring to it, but then again, 222 00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.879 and in the mouths of the elves, it might not 223 00:12:25.960 --> 00:12:28.440 be so positive, right. You know, the sun is a 224 00:12:28.440 --> 00:12:29.279 pretty new thing to. 225 00:12:29.240 --> 00:12:31.679 Them, right, and they kind of prefer the moonlight. 226 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:33.600 Well, and they're calling them the night fearers. It's like, well, 227 00:12:33.600 --> 00:12:35.240 why are you so afraid of the night, like because 228 00:12:35.240 --> 00:12:36.799 the elves, you know, are like, well we like the 229 00:12:36.919 --> 00:12:37.720 night right. 230 00:12:37.799 --> 00:12:40.360 Right exactly. It's like they want to make make it 231 00:12:40.440 --> 00:12:44.159 extremely obvious that these people are different than them. They 232 00:12:44.240 --> 00:12:48.759 really they really want to not have any association or 233 00:12:48.799 --> 00:12:51.360 be confused with them at any you. 234 00:12:51.240 --> 00:12:56.919 Know, that's right, Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, we've got 235 00:12:56.919 --> 00:12:58.960 a lot of different names for them. The most common 236 00:12:58.960 --> 00:13:01.159 one we're going to find is just the Atani, right, 237 00:13:01.759 --> 00:13:04.559 That's the one that we'll see the most often repeated. 238 00:13:04.879 --> 00:13:08.919 And I believe that when we get later on that 239 00:13:09.159 --> 00:13:16.320 names like the Adine right are somewhat derivative of Atani, right. So, 240 00:13:16.559 --> 00:13:19.399 and that's not I mean, they were technically the second people, 241 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.919 right they you know, it's not necessarily now again, if 242 00:13:22.919 --> 00:13:25.480 that becomes a classism thing or like a you know, 243 00:13:25.879 --> 00:13:27.879 pecking order kind of thing that can be a problem. 244 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:32.360 But but you know, in one sense they are like 245 00:13:32.399 --> 00:13:35.600 it's like, you know, just one generation comes after the other. 246 00:13:36.080 --> 00:13:37.840 One group of one group of people came after the 247 00:13:37.879 --> 00:13:39.879 other group of people, right, so they were the second 248 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:44.600 people in that sense. Yeah, so anyway, but we definitely 249 00:13:44.600 --> 00:13:47.000 detect I think the takeaway here is we detect a 250 00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:51.440 very solid, a very strong theme of elves tending to 251 00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:54.879 look down upon men. Right, in general, It's not always true, 252 00:13:54.919 --> 00:14:03.919 but in general yep. So all right, well what of this? 253 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:06.360 So we alluded to earlier, this issue of the men 254 00:14:06.399 --> 00:14:08.480 and the valal Aur and how they relate to one another. 255 00:14:08.519 --> 00:14:11.440 So what's going on here? Greta? Maybe you can give 256 00:14:11.440 --> 00:14:16.480 this paragraph? All right? Yeah, this passage here read for us. 257 00:14:16.720 --> 00:14:25.840 Sure, the Hildurian there came. I was giving it to 258 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.200 see if they are already crazy words, and then I 259 00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:30.720 just messed up the very first easy one. 260 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:34.320 Okay, John helped me up from. 261 00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:40.399 My gosh, man, Okay, try this again. To Hildorian, there 262 00:14:40.399 --> 00:14:43.120 came no Valor to guide men or to summon them 263 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:46.200 to dwell in Valenor. And men have feared the Valor 264 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:49.519 rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes 265 00:14:49.559 --> 00:14:52.480 of the powers, being at variance with them and at 266 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.440 strife with the world. All mo nonetheless took thought for them, 267 00:14:56.919 --> 00:15:00.799 aiding the counsel and will of Manwey, and his messages 268 00:15:00.840 --> 00:15:03.759 came often to them by stream and flood. But they 269 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.399 have not skill in such matters, and still less had 270 00:15:06.399 --> 00:15:09.120 they in those days before they had mingled with the elves. 271 00:15:09.639 --> 00:15:12.519 Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred, 272 00:15:12.559 --> 00:15:16.000 but they understood not the messages. Yet it is told 273 00:15:16.080 --> 00:15:18.799 that ere long they met dark elves in many places, 274 00:15:18.799 --> 00:15:22.279 and were befriended by them, And men became the companions 275 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.080 and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers 276 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.399 of the Elvin race, who never set out upon the 277 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:31.720 paths to Eleanor and knew of the Valar only as 278 00:15:31.759 --> 00:15:33.240 a rumor and a distant name. 279 00:15:34.639 --> 00:15:37.960 Yeah. So, once again, as we read in that opening quote, 280 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:42.559 they Valar really never came to men to guide them, 281 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:46.039 as they did with the elves, and that's resulted in 282 00:15:46.080 --> 00:15:48.960 this distrust, this fear of the Valar on behalf of 283 00:15:49.000 --> 00:15:54.840 most men. Of course, who is it of the Valar 284 00:15:54.919 --> 00:15:57.960 that really has a heart for them? It's Almo good Almo, Right, 285 00:15:59.120 --> 00:16:03.639 And you know, I really loved this idea. Well, and 286 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:05.279 I should say this, We got a little credit to 287 00:16:05.320 --> 00:16:07.639 Manway because it says that Alma was aiding the counsel 288 00:16:07.679 --> 00:16:13.399 and will of Manway, so it's they were sending messages 289 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:16.559 to them, but it says it came by stream, by 290 00:16:16.600 --> 00:16:22.279 stream and flood. Yeah, and they weren't really capable of 291 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:23.080 understanding these men. 292 00:16:23.120 --> 00:16:25.440 I don't know that I would understand messages sent by 293 00:16:25.559 --> 00:16:27.639 stream and flood, would you? 294 00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:30.799 No? No, I wouldn't, especially if it was flood, because 295 00:16:30.799 --> 00:16:32.600 I'd be like, what's up with all the flood? Right? 296 00:16:32.639 --> 00:16:33.639 That's not very nice. 297 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:37.559 We've been through one major flood here in Nashville twenty 298 00:16:37.600 --> 00:16:41.679 ten and we didn't get hit nearly as hard as 299 00:16:41.679 --> 00:16:43.840 a lot of other people, but even the little bit 300 00:16:43.879 --> 00:16:45.799 of damage we did suffer, it was kind of like, 301 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:47.720 what's up with this? 302 00:16:47.960 --> 00:16:50.440 Yeah, it's not cool? Not cool, not cool, not cool. 303 00:16:52.039 --> 00:16:57.039 So nevertheless, I really like this idea that Olmo was 304 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.960 trying to communicate with them, right, And because I do, 305 00:17:01.080 --> 00:17:04.160 I feel like that, and I think we see this 306 00:17:04.200 --> 00:17:06.160 theme throughout in different parts of the film really too. 307 00:17:06.160 --> 00:17:09.279 But I feel like the theme I feel whenever I'm 308 00:17:09.319 --> 00:17:11.079 close to like a body of water or something like that, 309 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:13.799 there's a certain piece that comes over you, like when 310 00:17:13.799 --> 00:17:15.599 you're close when you're on the shores of the sea 311 00:17:15.720 --> 00:17:17.839 or something like that. Like, you know, it's a piece, 312 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:19.839 it's a it's a peaceful place to be. It puts 313 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:24.000 you in a different mindset. It does make you feel 314 00:17:24.799 --> 00:17:27.759 And this is really just kind of an ambiguous thing 315 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:29.880 to say, but it just makes me feel more spiritual 316 00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:32.400 when I'm close to the sea, right, and even close 317 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:34.400 to just a body of water, you know, you go 318 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:36.720 out in the nature, close to a river or. 319 00:17:36.720 --> 00:17:40.359 Something like that, it's very aesthetic about it too. 320 00:17:40.680 --> 00:17:44.400 Yeah, something that just makes you feel a little fills 321 00:17:44.440 --> 00:17:46.640 you with a little more peace than maybe not being 322 00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:49.720 close to the water does. So I think there, you know, 323 00:17:49.759 --> 00:17:57.319 I think Tolkien's maybe latching onto that idea. And we're 324 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.839 gonna see that Almo does communicate, he can, he continues 325 00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:03.160 to communicate to all of the children of Blue Baitar 326 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:08.559 through the waters. Right. So anyway, I it's it's very 327 00:18:08.599 --> 00:18:11.279 non not very well defined here, but I really like 328 00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:13.880 the idea that that this portrays at least. 329 00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:17.400 Yeah, No, I agree, and I think it's interesting too 330 00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:21.480 that you know that that they mentioned even though they 331 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:27.519 didn't understand these messages, their hearts were stirred, like they 332 00:18:27.839 --> 00:18:31.799 had great love for the water, even though they couldn't 333 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:34.880 quite understand that there was that there were messages in 334 00:18:34.920 --> 00:18:38.200 it maybe. Yeah, so there was even if they couldn't 335 00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:41.079 understand maybe the purpose, there was still something about them 336 00:18:41.119 --> 00:18:42.960 that that really kind of spoke to them. 337 00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:44.200 Mm hmmm mm hmm. 338 00:18:44.960 --> 00:18:47.079 And we also see her hear about the dark Elves 339 00:18:47.079 --> 00:18:47.480 here too. 340 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.519 Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna mention that, thanks 341 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:51.920 for bringing it up. So the dark Elves. What are 342 00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:52.839 you gonna say about the Dark ove? 343 00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:54.720 Oh no, I was just gonna say that, I know 344 00:18:54.720 --> 00:18:57.920 we talked about them briefly before. I think maybe was 345 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:00.599 it when we were talking about the the sundering of 346 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.799 the elves or Yeah. So it's just nice that like 347 00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.119 we're reminded that they exist, Yeah, and that they that 348 00:19:08.240 --> 00:19:12.079 this was a part this is a part of the 349 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:15.160 Elvin race that befriended the men. 350 00:19:15.759 --> 00:19:17.440 Yeah, so there is a you know, there is a 351 00:19:17.480 --> 00:19:20.559 sense of friendship that develops early on, and they they do, 352 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:24.279 they teach, they teach men what it is that you know, 353 00:19:24.440 --> 00:19:26.960 kind of share some things with them, right that some 354 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:28.839 of the other elves who have you know, who are 355 00:19:28.880 --> 00:19:33.599 the Calaquindi versus the more a Quindi. Right, the cala 356 00:19:33.640 --> 00:19:35.480 Quindi would have had the most of all the light, 357 00:19:36.200 --> 00:19:38.680 but the more a Quindy they you know, they had 358 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:40.960 some experience with the Valor themselves. They made a choice 359 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:46.480 not to not to go towards valan Or. But they 360 00:19:46.559 --> 00:19:48.640 nevertheless have been living a long time, and so they're 361 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:50.960 able to teach men some things and to offer them 362 00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:59.119 some friendship. Right now. Fortunately, more Goth, because of the sun, 363 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:03.160 is held at bay, and he's not able to maybe 364 00:20:03.240 --> 00:20:06.279 come down as hard on the attani on Men as 365 00:20:06.319 --> 00:20:09.559 he would like to. I'm gonna go ahead and read 366 00:20:09.599 --> 00:20:13.119 this first paragraph here. More Goth had then not long 367 00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:15.359 come back into Middle Earth, and his power went not 368 00:20:15.640 --> 00:20:18.160 far abroad, and was moreover checked by the sudden coming 369 00:20:18.200 --> 00:20:20.759 of great light. There was little peril in the lands 370 00:20:20.759 --> 00:20:23.799 and hills, and there new things devised long ages before 371 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:25.680 in the thought of Yavana and sown his seat in 372 00:20:25.720 --> 00:20:29.079 the dark came at last to their budding and their bloom. 373 00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:32.160 West north and south. The children of Men spread and wandered, 374 00:20:32.440 --> 00:20:34.359 and their joy was the joy of the morning before 375 00:20:34.359 --> 00:20:38.000 the dew is dry, when every leaf is green, but 376 00:20:38.039 --> 00:20:40.359 the dawn is brief, and the day full often belies 377 00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:43.000 its promise. And now the time drew on to the 378 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:45.279 great wars and the powers of the North, when Noldor 379 00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.039 and Sindhar and men strove against the hosts of Morgoth 380 00:20:48.119 --> 00:20:52.440 Bauglier and went down down in Ruin. To this end 381 00:20:52.480 --> 00:20:54.720 the cunning lives of Morgoth, that he sowed of old 382 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:57.359 and sowed ever anew among his foes, and the curse 383 00:20:57.440 --> 00:20:59.720 that came of the slang at al Kualande and the 384 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.519 oath a fan or wherever at work. So just that 385 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:06.599 kind of foreshadows the rest of what's we're going to 386 00:21:06.680 --> 00:21:10.240 learn about in the Selmer Alien and these these great 387 00:21:10.240 --> 00:21:14.039 wars of the of the North. I really really just 388 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.319 love this, uh this line here. But the dawn is 389 00:21:17.359 --> 00:21:20.839 brief and the day full often belies its promise. Right, 390 00:21:22.279 --> 00:21:24.559 it kind of goes with what came the paragraph before, 391 00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.799 end of paragraph before. Their joy was the joy of 392 00:21:26.839 --> 00:21:28.680 the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf 393 00:21:28.759 --> 00:21:30.279 is green, but the dawn is brief, and the day 394 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:32.359 full often belies its promise. I feel like that's every 395 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:33.039 day of my life. 396 00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:36.039 I think probably most people feel that way. 397 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.519 Like I get up every morning and I'm like, ah, 398 00:21:39.559 --> 00:21:42.400 all this time, and it just life feels good. And 399 00:21:42.440 --> 00:21:46.359 then by about noon time you're just like nothing good 400 00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.599 is happening, you know, like. 401 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.440