Speaker 1: Hey there, fellow travelers. Our twenty twenty five Silmarillion journey
Speaker 1: continues with chapter twelve of Quintusilmarillion of Men. Yes. Chapter
Speaker 1: twelve introduces a mysterious new intelligent species to Middle Earth,
Speaker 1: the Atani, that is, the mortal people of mankind, and
Speaker 1: speaks of their first contact with the elves of bealeriond
Speaker 1: Over the next several months will continue revisiting the entire
Speaker 1: thirty episode Selm Million series that Greta and I recorded
Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty two. While you're listening, check out
Speaker 1: Silmguide dot com. That's Silmguide dot com for guides to
Speaker 1: individual chapters. You can find that link in the show notes.
Speaker 1: To support our work here, please visit Patreon dot com
Speaker 1: slash Tolkien Road Enjoy. Hey there, fellow travelers, Welcome to
Speaker 1: The Tolkien Road, Episode two ninety one. Greta, you ready
Speaker 1: for a manly discussion?
Speaker 2: A manly discussion?
Speaker 1: Yes? Oh it's a discussion of men.
Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah, well then I guess I am wow.
Speaker 2: Absolutely good.
Speaker 1: In this episode, we will be discussing chapter twelve of
Speaker 1: the sommer Million of Men of Men. Yes, men, yeah,
Speaker 1: not really great for the search engine you know, it's
Speaker 1: not really like any interesting keywords in there. It's just
Speaker 1: like of men talking about of men.
Speaker 2: All right, maybe maybe if you put mice in.
Speaker 1: There, Oh well, then it would be a John Steinbeck podcast.
Speaker 2: That's why it sounds familiar. Yeah, okay, moving.
Speaker 1: On, moving on, all right, before we get started, we'd
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Speaker 1: two one woops boom special thanks to this episode's executive producers,
Speaker 1: John R. Caitlin of t with Tolkien and Jacob Lockham,
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Speaker 2: May, and we just want to make sure that we're
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Speaker 2: look forward to doing a marathon. Maybe should we say
Speaker 2: a marathon live stream of May to May marriage.
Speaker 1: It's going to be literally twenty six point two hours.
Speaker 1: Twenty six point two.
Speaker 2: I meant it more.
Speaker 1: Figure it, oh, like, in terms of how long it
Speaker 1: takes you to run a marathon, I got you so
Speaker 1: like four hours.
Speaker 2: I don't know. Could I do a marathon in four hours?
Speaker 1: Probably neither one of us could do a marathon at all,
Speaker 1: so you might be able to pull one off. I
Speaker 1: definitely could not do a whole marathon at this point
Speaker 1: right now. Maybe if I trained for a long time.
Speaker 1: You run a lot, though.
Speaker 2: So do so I don't run super long distances though, so, so.
Speaker 1: Just to punish ourselves, I will be here on the
Speaker 1: live stream and Gretel will be live streaming separately while
Speaker 1: she runs a.
Speaker 2: Mara there you go, Oh that's fun. Or we could
Speaker 2: just live stream while I run. It doesn't have to
Speaker 2: be a marathon.
Speaker 1: I like the marathon idea. It was your suggestion. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying I'm the one that brought it up. All right,
Speaker 1: enough of that nonsense. We'll get We'll make it up
Speaker 1: to you guys. You know, it's just really busy for
Speaker 1: us right now. Hopefully that's going to be all over,
Speaker 1: you know, here in the next few weeks. The big
Speaker 1: things that got us extra busy right now are going
Speaker 1: to be kind of smooth, steady state in a few weeks,
Speaker 1: and we'll be able to do a nice longer one
Speaker 1: at the end of May. So thank you for understanding it, guess,
Speaker 1: thank you, all right. Tolkien Quote of the Week. So
Speaker 1: early in chapter twelve, which would be the chapter that
Speaker 1: we are currently in, to Hilldorian, there came no Vala
Speaker 1: to guide men, or to summon them to dwell in
Speaker 1: valen Or. And men have feared the Valor rather than
Speaker 1: love them, and have not understood the purpose of the powers,
Speaker 1: being at variance with them and at strife with the world.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I thought that was a interesting little thought
Speaker 1: that the Vala did not really aid men when they awoke,
Speaker 1: and as they did the elves.
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely some preferential treatment going on, I would say,
Speaker 2: and the men in return really didn't have much love
Speaker 2: for the Valor.
Speaker 1: Ye, well, more fear, you know, and fear well to
Speaker 1: some degrae. I feel like that's what happened with elves
Speaker 1: initially until the Valar showed up, right, you know, the
Speaker 1: Melkor kind of like convinced them that they should fear,
Speaker 1: you know, fear the Valar.
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1: Anyway, we'll talk more about this shortly. Well, let's dive
Speaker 1: into chapter twelve. So, with the sun having risen upon
Speaker 1: Middle Earth for the first time, we finally meet the
Speaker 1: younger children of a Luvatar men. In chapter twelve, we'll
Speaker 1: learn about the awakening of men, discover the various names
Speaker 1: given to men by the Eldar, explore the relationship between
Speaker 1: men and the Valar, and much more. And as with
Speaker 1: each episode, we won't be covering every detail of this chapter,
Speaker 1: but instead doing our best to hit the high points
Speaker 1: and unpack interesting and important details. If we miss something,
Speaker 1: you guys want to discuss more, let us know. So timeline,
Speaker 1: where are we on the timeline of the Middle Earth history?
Speaker 1: So using the War the Jewels here, which is the
Speaker 1: eleventh volume of the History of Middle Earth series. This
Speaker 1: particular chapter really is dated to Year of the Sun one,
Speaker 1: which is Year of the Trees fifteen hundred. So, as
Speaker 1: we will learn shortly, this is the moment at which
Speaker 1: Middle Earth history is broken off from the from counting
Speaker 1: in terms of the year of the Trees, years of
Speaker 1: the Trees to the years of the Sun. Right, so
Speaker 1: we kind of begin a new timeline. It's almost like
Speaker 1: a BCAD thing, okay, except just not like counting down
Speaker 1: BC two AD. It's like just one group of years
Speaker 1: of numbering sequences and then it starts a new one.
Speaker 1: So this is Year of the Trees fifteen hundred slash
Speaker 1: Year of the Sun one. So there you go.
Speaker 2: Good deal.
Speaker 1: Yeah all right.
Speaker 2: So so wait, so Year of the Sun one that's
Speaker 2: what marks the coming of men?
Speaker 1: Yes? Yeah, cool. So let's let's read a little bit
Speaker 1: of from the opening here about the second spring of Arda. So, Greta,
Speaker 1: would you like to read this highlighted.
Speaker 2: Paradigm, be delighted? From this time forth we reckon the
Speaker 2: years of the Sun. Swifter and briefer are they than
Speaker 2: the long years of the trees and ballenorme In that time,
Speaker 2: the air of Middle Earth became heavy with the breath
Speaker 2: of growth and mortality, and the changing and aging of
Speaker 2: all things was hastened exceedingly. Life teamed upon the soil
Speaker 2: and in the waters in the second Spring of Arda,
Speaker 2: and the Eldar increased, and beneath the new sun Balarion
Speaker 2: grew green and fair.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So the second Spring of Arda, the the elder increased.
Speaker 1: But as do really all things, right, and the growth
Speaker 1: and mortality increase as well, right, So, and that's all
Speaker 1: with the coming of the Sun, with the coming of
Speaker 1: the Sun upon Middle Earth. So and these years are,
Speaker 1: as you know, you've probably picked up on by now,
Speaker 1: the years of the sun are are quicker, right than
Speaker 1: the years of the trees. So one year of the sun,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, one year of the trees is equivalent to
Speaker 1: ten years of the sun. So a year of the
Speaker 1: sun is one tenth roughly of a year of the trees.
Speaker 1: So yeah, So with this rising of the Sun we
Speaker 1: meet men. And it says that they awaken in kind
Speaker 1: of the far east, the eastward regions of Middle Earth,
Speaker 1: in a land called hill Dorian. Right, So I was
Speaker 1: thinking about this name, and it turns out, well, Hill
Speaker 1: Dorian probably just means the land of the followers, right, So,
Speaker 1: because it says just after this we're gonna get to
Speaker 1: the names here, but it says that men were one
Speaker 1: of their names given to them by the Eldar were
Speaker 1: the Hilldor, right, the followers, and this is hill in right,
Speaker 1: So land the followers. Yeah, it's in the far east.
Speaker 1: And of course initially they experienced the sun rising in
Speaker 1: the west, right. We talked about that last chapter, this
Speaker 1: phenomenon of the sun rising in the west initially, and
Speaker 1: so they're drawn, they're drawn westward, initially towards you know,
Speaker 1: really towards Vaalin or Okay, and and they wander over
Speaker 1: the earth, you know, for some period of time. Now,
Speaker 1: as far as their names go, I'm gonna read this one, Greta,
Speaker 1: because I know you you struggle with the namings as
Speaker 1: do I, and not great at it. But you know,
Speaker 1: I know you you're always like.
Speaker 2: Self conscious about mispronunciation.
Speaker 1: Well, whenever you're going up against Tolkien, you know, and
Speaker 1: his words, his special words, you're always a little like
Speaker 1: I get self conscious too, right, But I'll read this
Speaker 1: all right, So what were the some of the names
Speaker 1: and what do they mean? The Atani. They were named
Speaker 1: by the Eldar, the second people, but they called them
Speaker 1: also Hildor, the followers, and many other names apan Onnar,
Speaker 1: the afterborn, Ngwar, the sickly, and Fierimar, the mortals, and
Speaker 1: they named them the Usurpers, the strangers and the inscrutable,
Speaker 1: the self cursed, the heavy handed, the night fears, the
Speaker 1: children of the Sun. So it strikes me that most
Speaker 1: of these names are not really like very friendly names.
Speaker 1: They're complimentary, they're not They're kind of derogatory. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: what do you think?
Speaker 2: No, I totally agree. I know when I was reading
Speaker 2: this the first time, I was like, oh, not a
Speaker 2: whole lot of love lost between these these two races here.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's almost like they're highlighting all the ways in
Speaker 2: which men are different and maybe even inferior to the elves, right,
Speaker 2: like they came. They're followers, not leaders, right, they're the
Speaker 2: second out the first. They are sick, all right, they're mortal.
Speaker 2: Elves are immortal, Yeah, Usurper, stranger, I mean it's really
Speaker 2: the self curse. Yeah, I mean I don't think there's
Speaker 2: any The only one that's maybe mildly positive would be
Speaker 2: Children of the Sun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, Children of the Sun
Speaker 1: has a has a nice ring to it, but then again,
Speaker 1: and in the mouths of the elves, it might not
Speaker 1: be so positive, right. You know, the sun is a
Speaker 1: pretty new thing to.
Speaker 2: Them, right, and they kind of prefer the moonlight.
Speaker 1: Well, and they're calling them the night fearers. It's like, well,
Speaker 1: why are you so afraid of the night, like because
Speaker 1: the elves, you know, are like, well we like the
Speaker 1: night right.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. It's like they want to make make it
Speaker 2: extremely obvious that these people are different than them. They
Speaker 2: really they really want to not have any association or
Speaker 2: be confused with them at any you.
Speaker 1: Know, that's right, Yeah, that's right. So, yeah, we've got
Speaker 1: a lot of different names for them. The most common
Speaker 1: one we're going to find is just the Atani, right,
Speaker 1: That's the one that we'll see the most often repeated.
Speaker 1: And I believe that when we get later on that
Speaker 1: names like the Adine right are somewhat derivative of Atani, right. So,
Speaker 1: and that's not I mean, they were technically the second people,
Speaker 1: right they you know, it's not necessarily now again, if
Speaker 1: that becomes a classism thing or like a you know,
Speaker 1: pecking order kind of thing that can be a problem.
Speaker 1: But but you know, in one sense they are like
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, just one generation comes after the other.
Speaker 1: One group of one group of people came after the
Speaker 1: other group of people, right, so they were the second
Speaker 1: people in that sense. Yeah, so anyway, but we definitely
Speaker 1: detect I think the takeaway here is we detect a
Speaker 1: very solid, a very strong theme of elves tending to
Speaker 1: look down upon men. Right, in general, It's not always true,
Speaker 1: but in general yep. So all right, well what of this?
Speaker 1: So we alluded to earlier, this issue of the men
Speaker 1: and the valal Aur and how they relate to one another.
Speaker 1: So what's going on here? Greta? Maybe you can give
Speaker 1: this paragraph? All right? Yeah, this passage here read for us.
Speaker 2: Sure, the Hildurian there came. I was giving it to
Speaker 2: see if they are already crazy words, and then I
Speaker 2: just messed up the very first easy one.
Speaker 1: Okay, John helped me up from.
Speaker 2: My gosh, man, Okay, try this again. To Hildorian, there
Speaker 2: came no Valor to guide men or to summon them
Speaker 2: to dwell in Valenor. And men have feared the Valor
Speaker 2: rather than loved them, and have not understood the purposes
Speaker 2: of the powers, being at variance with them and at
Speaker 2: strife with the world. All mo nonetheless took thought for them,
Speaker 2: aiding the counsel and will of Manwey, and his messages
Speaker 2: came often to them by stream and flood. But they
Speaker 2: have not skill in such matters, and still less had
Speaker 2: they in those days before they had mingled with the elves.
Speaker 2: Therefore they loved the waters, and their hearts were stirred,
Speaker 2: but they understood not the messages. Yet it is told
Speaker 2: that ere long they met dark elves in many places,
Speaker 2: and were befriended by them, And men became the companions
Speaker 2: and disciples in their childhood of these ancient folk, wanderers
Speaker 2: of the Elvin race, who never set out upon the
Speaker 2: paths to Eleanor and knew of the Valar only as
Speaker 2: a rumor and a distant name.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, once again, as we read in that opening quote,
Speaker 1: they Valar really never came to men to guide them,
Speaker 1: as they did with the elves, and that's resulted in
Speaker 1: this distrust, this fear of the Valar on behalf of
Speaker 1: most men. Of course, who is it of the Valar
Speaker 1: that really has a heart for them? It's Almo good Almo, Right,
Speaker 1: And you know, I really loved this idea. Well, and
Speaker 1: I should say this, We got a little credit to
Speaker 1: Manway because it says that Alma was aiding the counsel
Speaker 1: and will of Manway, so it's they were sending messages
Speaker 1: to them, but it says it came by stream, by
Speaker 1: stream and flood. Yeah, and they weren't really capable of
Speaker 1: understanding these men.
Speaker 2: I don't know that I would understand messages sent by
Speaker 2: stream and flood, would you?
Speaker 1: No? No, I wouldn't, especially if it was flood, because
Speaker 1: I'd be like, what's up with all the flood? Right?
Speaker 1: That's not very nice.
Speaker 2: We've been through one major flood here in Nashville twenty
Speaker 2: ten and we didn't get hit nearly as hard as
Speaker 2: a lot of other people, but even the little bit
Speaker 2: of damage we did suffer, it was kind of like,
Speaker 2: what's up with this?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not cool? Not cool, not cool, not cool.
Speaker 1: So nevertheless, I really like this idea that Olmo was
Speaker 1: trying to communicate with them, right, And because I do,
Speaker 1: I feel like that, and I think we see this
Speaker 1: theme throughout in different parts of the film really too.
Speaker 1: But I feel like the theme I feel whenever I'm
Speaker 1: close to like a body of water or something like that,
Speaker 1: there's a certain piece that comes over you, like when
Speaker 1: you're close when you're on the shores of the sea
Speaker 1: or something like that. Like, you know, it's a piece,
Speaker 1: it's a it's a peaceful place to be. It puts
Speaker 1: you in a different mindset. It does make you feel
Speaker 1: And this is really just kind of an ambiguous thing
Speaker 1: to say, but it just makes me feel more spiritual
Speaker 1: when I'm close to the sea, right, and even close
Speaker 1: to just a body of water, you know, you go
Speaker 1: out in the nature, close to a river or.
Speaker 2: Something like that, it's very aesthetic about it too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, something that just makes you feel a little fills
Speaker 1: you with a little more peace than maybe not being
Speaker 1: close to the water does. So I think there, you know,
Speaker 1: I think Tolkien's maybe latching onto that idea. And we're
Speaker 1: gonna see that Almo does communicate, he can, he continues
Speaker 1: to communicate to all of the children of Blue Baitar
Speaker 1: through the waters. Right. So anyway, I it's it's very
Speaker 1: non not very well defined here, but I really like
Speaker 1: the idea that that this portrays at least.
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I agree, and I think it's interesting too
Speaker 2: that you know that that they mentioned even though they
Speaker 2: didn't understand these messages, their hearts were stirred, like they
Speaker 2: had great love for the water, even though they couldn't
Speaker 2: quite understand that there was that there were messages in
Speaker 2: it maybe. Yeah, so there was even if they couldn't
Speaker 2: understand maybe the purpose, there was still something about them
Speaker 2: that that really kind of spoke to them.
Speaker 1: Mm hmmm mm hmm.
Speaker 2: And we also see her hear about the dark Elves
Speaker 2: here too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna I was gonna mention that, thanks
Speaker 1: for bringing it up. So the dark Elves. What are
Speaker 1: you gonna say about the Dark ove?
Speaker 2: Oh no, I was just gonna say that, I know
Speaker 2: we talked about them briefly before. I think maybe was
Speaker 2: it when we were talking about the the sundering of
Speaker 2: the elves or Yeah. So it's just nice that like
Speaker 2: we're reminded that they exist, Yeah, and that they that
Speaker 2: this was a part this is a part of the
Speaker 2: Elvin race that befriended the men.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so there is a you know, there is a
Speaker 1: sense of friendship that develops early on, and they they do,
Speaker 1: they teach, they teach men what it is that you know,
Speaker 1: kind of share some things with them, right that some
Speaker 1: of the other elves who have you know, who are
Speaker 1: the Calaquindi versus the more a Quindi. Right, the cala
Speaker 1: Quindi would have had the most of all the light,
Speaker 1: but the more a Quindy they you know, they had
Speaker 1: some experience with the Valor themselves. They made a choice
Speaker 1: not to not to go towards valan Or. But they
Speaker 1: nevertheless have been living a long time, and so they're
Speaker 1: able to teach men some things and to offer them
Speaker 1: some friendship. Right now. Fortunately, more Goth, because of the sun,
Speaker 1: is held at bay, and he's not able to maybe
Speaker 1: come down as hard on the attani on Men as
Speaker 1: he would like to. I'm gonna go ahead and read
Speaker 1: this first paragraph here. More Goth had then not long
Speaker 1: come back into Middle Earth, and his power went not
Speaker 1: far abroad, and was moreover checked by the sudden coming
Speaker 1: of great light. There was little peril in the lands
Speaker 1: and hills, and there new things devised long ages before
Speaker 1: in the thought of Yavana and sown his seat in
Speaker 1: the dark came at last to their budding and their bloom.
Speaker 1: West north and south. The children of Men spread and wandered,
Speaker 1: and their joy was the joy of the morning before
Speaker 1: the dew is dry, when every leaf is green, but
Speaker 1: the dawn is brief, and the day full often belies
Speaker 1: its promise. And now the time drew on to the
Speaker 1: great wars and the powers of the North, when Noldor
Speaker 1: and Sindhar and men strove against the hosts of Morgoth
Speaker 1: Bauglier and went down down in Ruin. To this end
Speaker 1: the cunning lives of Morgoth, that he sowed of old
Speaker 1: and sowed ever anew among his foes, and the curse
Speaker 1: that came of the slang at al Kualande and the
Speaker 1: oath a fan or wherever at work. So just that
Speaker 1: kind of foreshadows the rest of what's we're going to
Speaker 1: learn about in the Selmer Alien and these these great
Speaker 1: wars of the of the North. I really really just
Speaker 1: love this, uh this line here. But the dawn is
Speaker 1: brief and the day full often belies its promise. Right,
Speaker 1: it kind of goes with what came the paragraph before,
Speaker 1: end of paragraph before. Their joy was the joy of
Speaker 1: the morning before the dew is dry, when every leaf
Speaker 1: is green, but the dawn is brief, and the day
Speaker 1: full often belies its promise. I feel like that's every
Speaker 1: day of my life.
Speaker 2: I think probably most people feel that way.
Speaker 1: Like I get up every morning and I'm like, ah,
Speaker 1: all this time, and it just life feels good. And
Speaker 1: then by about noon time you're just like nothing good
Speaker 1: is happening, you know, like.
Speaker 2: Or you're like, where did the last six hours go?
Speaker 1: I know, what have I accomplished? I know it's all
Speaker 1: those things, right, Yeah, And Tolkien of course puts it
Speaker 1: much more poetically here, right, the dawn is brief in
Speaker 1: the day full often be lies it's promise. Days day
Speaker 1: is such.
Speaker 2: A liar, tricky, tricky tricksy days. Yeah, yeah, very tricksy,
Speaker 2: very very tricksy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. But but at the very least, you know, the
Speaker 1: sun holding more gooth at bay and kind of causing
Speaker 1: him to go underground for a while gives men the
Speaker 1: opportunity to spread and to grow. Now, I will say
Speaker 1: that as I do the math on like generations, it
Speaker 1: has me thinking like, so, were there already a lot
Speaker 1: of men in the year's year of the sun won?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like they kind of come into I'm
Speaker 1: not sure exactly when they come into the picture in
Speaker 1: terms of the timeline because I haven't gotten there yet,
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's it's only a couple of
Speaker 1: hundred years, and so I'm like, how many men could
Speaker 1: there have been by then, right, unless they started with
Speaker 1: unless there was already like a lot that existed and
Speaker 1: they all woke together. Right. So that's an interesting question
Speaker 1: of itself. And I'm not sure if Tolkien it us
Speaker 1: is that anywhere I can't remember if maybe there's something
Speaker 1: of that in the nature of Middle Earth, But I
Speaker 1: do think that's an interesting question. I'm just not equipped
Speaker 1: to answer it right now. Do you understand, like, do
Speaker 1: you understand my conundrum or my what I'm wondering about there?
Speaker 1: Greta Um.
Speaker 2: Not exact.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying, like, okay, if there's just a mother
Speaker 1: and a father to begin and the year of the
Speaker 1: son one, how do you get it's like a lot
Speaker 1: of people in a couple of hundred years, right, like
Speaker 1: like talking in the thousands or you know, really probably
Speaker 1: more likely there. Well, it just seems like there are
Speaker 1: because when we get into later chapters in the Silmarllion,
Speaker 1: it seems like there's lots of men fighting, right, And
Speaker 1: there's not only lots of men helping the elder, but
Speaker 1: there's lots of more men fighting against them, right, So
Speaker 1: you know, it just makes me think, yeah, it just
Speaker 1: makes me wonder about that. But it's it's it's probably
Speaker 1: not entirely relevant to this. It is something though that
Speaker 1: I feel like Tolkien himself would have struggled with his
Speaker 1: own mythology trying to think about how does this all
Speaker 1: add up? Right? Could it be that anyway? I don't know,
Speaker 1: It's kind of a rabbit trail, but just something I
Speaker 1: wanted to mention head on instead of just being like, well,
Speaker 1: this problem doesn't actually exist, but maybe, I mean, because
Speaker 1: you think about it, like, just let's just make one
Speaker 1: generation of men, like twenty years. Okay, So it takes
Speaker 1: twenty years for a man and a woman to produce offspring, right,
Speaker 1: and in that time, let's say they have and they're
Speaker 1: you know, so you kind of do the generational math,
Speaker 1: and is that time enough for there to be thousands
Speaker 1: and thousands of men face of Middle Earth?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: Right, in the face of a couple of hundreds of years,
Speaker 1: which would have been maybe in that scheme like a
Speaker 1: I don't know, ten generations or something like that, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe fifteen generations.
Speaker 2: I don't know, so, yeah, I understand that question. Now,
Speaker 2: that's a good one. I wonder if like the coming
Speaker 2: of men, like, how how does it compare to the
Speaker 2: coming of the elves, Like they all just kind of
Speaker 2: started in a big group.
Speaker 1: Well they did. Actually, in the Nature of Middle Earth,
Speaker 1: there's a lot written about the elves and how they
Speaker 1: came to be, right. Tolkien actually like wrote a ton
Speaker 1: about that. That's one of the most that's like early
Speaker 1: on in the book, and it's really really interesting stuff. So,
Speaker 1: but I don't know that he does the same thing
Speaker 1: with men. I don't know that he does like that
Speaker 1: does the same kinds of tables with men, But he
Speaker 1: definitely does those calculations with elves, and he's very specific
Speaker 1: about it, right, So it's it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 2: Maybe Tolkien favored the elves as well.
Speaker 1: Well, let's be honest, he probably did. He knew too
Speaker 1: many men, right, he was like, men suck books about
Speaker 1: immortal beings that you know, were a lot cooler and
Speaker 1: stronger and live a lot longer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, let's be honest. I mean, if
Speaker 2: we had to choose, we'd be we'd be elves.
Speaker 1: He's like men suck. I know, because I am one.
Speaker 1: All right, So, all right, any of the thoughts on that.
Speaker 2: Passes Greta, Umm, no, I think we covered it.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, all right, Well let's talk about the stature
Speaker 1: of men and elves, right like, how they physically characterized,
Speaker 1: how they're physically characterized to comparison to one another. Okay, Greta,
Speaker 1: would you like to read this blue paragraph right here?
Speaker 2: Yes, and mortal were the elves, and their wisdom waxed
Speaker 2: from age to age, and no sickness nor pestilence brought
Speaker 2: forth brought death to them. Their bodies, indeed, were of
Speaker 2: the stuff of earth and could be destroyed. And in
Speaker 2: those days they were more like to the bodies of men,
Speaker 2: since they had not so long been inhabited by the
Speaker 2: fire of their spirit, which consumes them from within in
Speaker 2: the courses of time. But men were more frail, more
Speaker 2: easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less easily healed,
Speaker 2: object to sickness and many ills, and they grew old
Speaker 2: and died. What maybe fall their spirits after death? The
Speaker 2: elves know not. Some say that they too go to
Speaker 2: the halls of Mondo's, But their place of waiting there
Speaker 2: is not that of the elves and mondos under Aluvatar alone,
Speaker 2: save manway knows whether they go after the time of
Speaker 2: recollection in those silent halls beside the outer sea. None
Speaker 2: have ever come back from the mansions of the dead,
Speaker 2: save only Baron, son of Barahir, whose hand had touched
Speaker 2: the silmarill. But he never spoke afterward to mortal men.
Speaker 2: The fate of men after death maybe is not in
Speaker 2: the hands of the valarm nor was all foretold in
Speaker 2: the music of the ininorm.
Speaker 1: Yes, all right, interesting paragraph, indeed, accompanied by the shrieks
Speaker 1: of birds in the background.
Speaker 2: I was wondering. I was like, is my microphone making
Speaker 2: read noises when I speak?
Speaker 1: Or noose? The birds in our yard here calling to
Speaker 1: calling to John Rice, so saying hello, saying hello hello,
Speaker 1: friend of birds. Yeah, so I got my door open
Speaker 1: while we're recording. That's why you're you know, you may
Speaker 1: be able to hear those birds in the background.
Speaker 2: I think it's totally fitting, in a perfect.
Speaker 1: Perfect perfect That's what that's kind of why I do it. So, like,
Speaker 1: what what interesting natural sounds we're going to hear in
Speaker 1: the background? So what do we want to highlight here.
Speaker 1: I first thing that I find really interesting is how
Speaker 1: Tolkien sort of describes the fading of the elves, right,
Speaker 1: that there's this idea that even now the elves were
Speaker 1: still young in the grand scheme of their life span,
Speaker 1: which is immortality, it should be immortality, which is really
Speaker 1: to say, it's the lifespan of the Earth, right, it's
Speaker 1: the lifespan of Arta itself. Even though they can die
Speaker 1: if they're slain, but they do fade over time, right
Speaker 1: because of the fire of their spirit, right, it consumes
Speaker 1: them from within the course of time. And that's why,
Speaker 1: you know, I guess according to the Tolkienian mythology here
Speaker 1: that elves they still exist right in the scheme, Like
Speaker 1: if you're thinking in terms of like how Tolkien views
Speaker 1: the world here, right and in viewing Middle Earth is
Speaker 1: kind of a mythological prehistory of our world, right, that
Speaker 1: these these elves still exists as fairies. But they're like
Speaker 1: these faded spirits now, right, they're these like they they're
Speaker 1: so faded that they almost like don't have bodies anymore, right,
Speaker 1: But they're just kind of these like spirits that exist
Speaker 1: out there, right because they're their bodies have been consumed
Speaker 1: by the fire of their spirit. Right, yep. So it's
Speaker 1: an interesting little little thought there. But men are more frail, uh,
Speaker 1: they're more easily slain by weapon or mischance, and less
Speaker 1: easily healed, ain't that the truth? And subject to many
Speaker 1: sickness and ment to sickness and many ills, and they
Speaker 1: grow old and die. But ultimately men are this mystery.
Speaker 1: We don't They don't know what happens to men. The
Speaker 1: elves don't know. They wonder if maybe they go to
Speaker 1: a separate part of the halls of Mondos, but it's
Speaker 1: not really it's not really known. The fate of men
Speaker 1: is just simply not known. And it was not foretold
Speaker 1: in the music of the ire so.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's not in the hands of the
Speaker 2: valor either, so they don't know. Yeah, it's crazy. I
Speaker 2: want to give a quick shout out here to Baron.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh yeah, well, what's not to love?
Speaker 2: What's not to love? But it's just interesting that they
Speaker 2: mention him, as he's the only one that has ever
Speaker 2: come back from the mansions of the dead. Yes, and
Speaker 2: we'll hear more of Baron's story in a few.
Speaker 1: Chapters, Yes, indeed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just cool. That they mentioned that, or that
Speaker 2: Tolkien mentioned that that he mentions the sill morrel too.
Speaker 2: Do you think that has something to do with why
Speaker 2: he came back from the mansions of the dead or
Speaker 2: is that just like a fun fact that he threw
Speaker 2: in there.
Speaker 1: Well in the sense of did this Simrell have some
Speaker 1: way of like power within itself.
Speaker 2: Right to like kind of and I mean I know why,
Speaker 2: Like I know why he came back from the halls
Speaker 2: of Mando's, like I know the story.
Speaker 1: I think that's just I think that's just the way
Speaker 1: they just like it's like a it's like notable, right,
Speaker 1: you know, It's like it's it's almost like a you know,
Speaker 1: Baron who did this great deed, right, son of Barro
Speaker 1: here who did this you know who was was alone
Speaker 1: among mortals, right and touching a some merl, right and
Speaker 1: holding a sell Merell.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, that it's just kind of this legendary way
Speaker 1: of referring to somebody right of renown, right, and the
Speaker 1: reason for his renown. I don't think that's that That's
Speaker 1: We'll talk about it again obviously when we get to
Speaker 1: the story. But I don't think that's the reason he
Speaker 1: came back from the dead. I think this chapter, this
Speaker 1: chapter again, you know, it's not really the only kind
Speaker 1: of thing it does to advance the plot is just
Speaker 1: tell us that, yeah, men awaken in the year, in
Speaker 1: this first year of the Sun and it but it
Speaker 1: kind of provides some background before we jump into you know,
Speaker 1: like there's this dividing line in the film Million, right,
Speaker 1: it's the the first half is all about what happens
Speaker 1: in the Blessed Realm among the Valar and eventually with
Speaker 1: the elder an event in the big catastrophe, there is
Speaker 1: the destruction of the two Trees, and then we have
Speaker 1: then noldor fleeing, you know, chasing more more Goth to Balarion.
Speaker 1: And then the second half of the selmarally is going
Speaker 1: to be all about the wars of against more Goth, right,
Speaker 1: the wars against more Goth back in Bealarion, right, and
Speaker 1: this is some stage setting for that, Okay, it's you know,
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of foreshadowing and just kind of
Speaker 1: giving us an idea of where men came from, and
Speaker 1: they're actually not going to come into the picture even
Speaker 1: for a couple more chapter chapters in terms of the
Speaker 1: actual story arc. So yeah, all right, Greta, would you
Speaker 1: like to Oh no, you read the last one. Reads
Speaker 1: It's all you last paragraph here. And this is of
Speaker 1: the relationship of men and elves. And after days when
Speaker 1: because of the triumph of Morgoth, elves and men became estranged,
Speaker 1: as he most wished, those of the Elvin race that
Speaker 1: lived still in Middle Earth waned and faded, and men
Speaker 1: usurped the sunlight. Then the Quindi wandered in the lonely
Speaker 1: places of the great lands and the isles, and took
Speaker 1: to the moonlight and the starlight, into the woods and caves,
Speaker 1: becoming as shadows and memories save those who ever. And
Speaker 1: Anon set sail into the west and vanished from Middle Earth.
Speaker 1: But in the dawn of years, elves and men were
Speaker 1: allies and held themselves akin. And there were some among
Speaker 1: men that learned the wisdom of the Eldar and became
Speaker 1: great and valiant among the captains of the Noldor. And
Speaker 1: in the glory and beauty of the elves, and in
Speaker 1: their fate full share had the offspring of elf and
Speaker 1: mortal Rindil and Elwing and Elrond their child, and el
Speaker 1: rose disgusting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but Elrond is definitely better.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, I guess I should say that he didn't
Speaker 1: have the he didn't have the share because he chose
Speaker 1: different paths exactly, So I stand corrected.
Speaker 2: But they're still were twins a right? Or were they
Speaker 2: just brothers?
Speaker 1: I believe they were twins. Yeah, maybe they were just brothers,
Speaker 1: though I don't know. Yeah, So just to you know,
Speaker 1: to say that once again, reiterate this idea that like
Speaker 1: kind of now elves, the elves that remained behind in
Speaker 1: our in our midst are faded and we almost like imperceptible,
Speaker 1: which I again, I really love this idea because I
Speaker 1: think this is Tolkien's way of explaining just all these
Speaker 1: like you know, the weird phenomena we might feel in
Speaker 1: different you know, kind of different places and that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, right, like you know, there's some other presence here,
Speaker 1: you know, for good or for ill. Right, this is
Speaker 1: one way of explaining that like kind of the you know,
Speaker 1: and you think about like kind of lore of ancient England,
Speaker 1: of England going back a long time, and just kind
Speaker 1: of these ideas of like various fairies like inhabiting the
Speaker 1: woods and that kind of thing, Like what are these creatures. Well,
Speaker 1: Tolkien's idea here that they're just these beings that once
Speaker 1: were like men, but now they've kind of faded, right,
Speaker 1: And unless they traveled back to you know, the Blessed Rome,
Speaker 1: they've faded and they just kind of exist as these
Speaker 1: shadowy beings in you know, in our midst And but
Speaker 1: once upon a time, the best of men and the
Speaker 1: best of elves fought together hand in hand against the
Speaker 1: dark Lord, right, And that's really what we're going to
Speaker 1: learn about, and the rest of the Silmar Alien. That's
Speaker 1: what these last twelve chapters from chapter thirteen to chapter
Speaker 1: twenty four are really concerned with. Are the great legends
Speaker 1: of men and elves fighting against Morgoth for the sake
Speaker 1: of the freedom of Balerion and of and of trying
Speaker 1: somehow to get those summarles from him.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So I'm wondering how much of this fading has to
Speaker 2: do with the fact that elves and men became estranged.
Speaker 2: Of wonder if if they had remained friends and allies,
Speaker 2: if that would have somehow, I don't know, not necessarily prevented,
Speaker 2: but maybe just maybe maybe the estrangement hastened the waning.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like it's a good it's a good question.
Speaker 1: I feel like the elves were meant they were in
Speaker 1: being the first born. They were much like the Valar,
Speaker 1: like came first, and they and they were there to
Speaker 1: help the Eldar awaken and kind of reach their full potential.
Speaker 1: I feel like the Eldar came first in order to
Speaker 1: help men awaken and reach their full potential. Right. And
Speaker 1: there was varying success and failure amongst in both of
Speaker 1: those cases, right. The Valar obviously weren't successful with all
Speaker 1: the elves, and the ld R were not successful with
Speaker 1: all men, right, but with some they were some they were, so.
Speaker 2: There was like a passing of the baton or the torch.
Speaker 1: And I do feel like that, and I feel like
Speaker 1: the elder were meant to lay the groundwork. And and
Speaker 1: I think this also Tolkien doesn't direct doesn't address it
Speaker 1: directly in this chapter, but I do think there this
Speaker 1: is showing us again that sense that that this is,
Speaker 1: this is a story that all of Middle Earth is
Speaker 1: kind of this exploration of like mortality and what it
Speaker 1: means as men that were mortal, even though we have
Speaker 1: this seeming immortal spark within each one of us, Right,
Speaker 1: that there is this, this hunger, an ache, and thirst
Speaker 1: for immortality. Yeah, within each one of us as men?
Speaker 1: Why is that there? Right? What are we made for?
Speaker 1: And you know, my my working thesis in it all
Speaker 1: is just that Tolkien was exploring that through all of
Speaker 1: these stories, and so do without what you will? Well,
Speaker 1: this is a short chapter, indeed, and that's about all
Speaker 1: I have to say about that. Yeah, okay, all right, Well,
Speaker 1: do you want to do some haiku your Yeah, let's
Speaker 1: do some all right, here we go, right, darn it, mister.
Speaker 3: Rock paper scissors, Shoot rock paper scissors, Shoot rock paper scissors, shoot.
Speaker 2: Rock paper scissors.
Speaker 3: Shoot, dang it, all right, you go first, Me go first. Okay,
Speaker 3: let me see if I can find it. Yeah, here
Speaker 3: we go, all right.
Speaker 2: Children of the Sun, friends of dark elves, not valor
Speaker 2: mysterious men.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, nice, thanks, I like it. Mine's kind of
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: Oh okay, let's hear it all.
Speaker 1: Right, Atani Sunborn fears of Night. Yet it's foe star people, give.
Speaker 2: Way, nice star people, people of the stars versus people
Speaker 2: of the Sun. Yes, cool, I like it. Good stuff.
Speaker 1: Hey, if you want your haiku right on a future episode,
Speaker 1: let us know. And oh, I forgot to collect these,
Speaker 1: but I do have. I do at least have one haiku,
Speaker 1: I believe. Let me let me check this out. I
Speaker 1: got one from I believe from red Hawk.
Speaker 2: Oh, red Hawk, I say, I think he's the one
Speaker 2: that's been the most.
Speaker 1: Face a couple here, you all right, he's he's staying
Speaker 1: a little ahead of the game. Here, here we go,
Speaker 1: Chapter twelve. Haiku from Red Hawk, Chill of the morn
Speaker 1: Awake with the Rising sun Man, meet the Firstborn.
Speaker 3: Good.
Speaker 2: Nice, that's good, excellent, indeed excellent. Good.
Speaker 1: Look at my email here and see if we got
Speaker 1: any others.
Speaker 2: Just do you want me to like sing?
Speaker 1: Yes, already?
Speaker 2: What should I sing? Well, no, I don't want to
Speaker 2: get copyrighted. I think about singing star Man Bowie.
Speaker 1: Yeah that's all right, I got it here, But I
Speaker 1: want just to turn into a Blue by Chanelle commercial
Speaker 1: or whatever. So yeah, that was ai. Yeah all right.
Speaker 1: I think that might be our only one for this chapter.
Speaker 1: I feel like I may have another one. But I
Speaker 1: didn't do a good job, y'all. Like I said, it's
Speaker 1: been busy. So if I failed to read someone else's
Speaker 1: hiq on this episode, I do apologize. Yeah, oh, wait,
Speaker 1: here we go, Here we go? All right? This is
Speaker 1: from Samuel P. Enough David Bowie, So from Samuel P.
Speaker 1: Men of the First Age, the hilldor frail lost, deceived
Speaker 1: nomad's leave their home, nice ski stuff, and Samuel says
Speaker 1: the deceived part comes from Authorbeth Finrod Andreath and Morgth's Ring,
Speaker 1: where Andreath is telling King Finrod of the dark past
Speaker 1: of men, how they were deceived and led astray by
Speaker 1: more Goth in their prehistory. So there you go, which
Speaker 1: I cannot wait to discuss that. That is going to
Speaker 1: be a very interesting work to discuss, especially after we
Speaker 1: finished the Silmarillion, you know this time. Yeah, we'll probably
Speaker 1: get to that. I expect to get to that later
Speaker 1: this year. That's been a long one coming, but it
Speaker 1: is definitely on the short list of things to get
Speaker 1: too soon. Authorbeth Finrod Andreath, right, the dialogue.
Speaker 2: Of yes, just that part of more God's Ring.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's other parts in More Goths Ring that we'll
Speaker 1: probably discuss as well. Okay, flobeans Yeah, all right, Well,
Speaker 1: good job on the high cover body. Subscribe, rate and
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