WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.159 --> 00:00:03.319 Hudson River Radio dot com. 2 00:00:03.600 --> 00:00:08.119 It beats listening to nothingness. 3 00:00:08.560 --> 00:00:12.240 Being Frank, where the only way to be is Frank. 4 00:00:14.919 --> 00:00:18.000 Hello everyone, and welcome to Being Frank. We're the only 5 00:00:18.079 --> 00:00:21.399 way to be is Frank. I'm your host, Frank Leborno, 6 00:00:21.440 --> 00:00:23.280 and i'd like to thank you for joining us on 7 00:00:23.320 --> 00:00:27.480 what we like to call the Intelligent Conversation Podcast, where 8 00:00:27.519 --> 00:00:30.519 no conversation is out of bounds and all points of 9 00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:33.679 view are welcome. We record live to tape, and I 10 00:00:33.719 --> 00:00:36.359 give you the date so you have some context and relevance. 11 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:40.200 It's the eighth of November, just a few days after 12 00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:44.759 the most consequential election, certainly of my lifetime, whether you 13 00:00:44.840 --> 00:00:49.320 supported him or not, admired him, or abhorred him. Donald J. 14 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:53.119 Trump's victory in the twenty twenty four presidential race was 15 00:00:53.159 --> 00:00:58.359 nothing short of remarkable and in some ways unfathomable. Remarkable 16 00:00:58.479 --> 00:01:02.759 because instead of being almost immediately disqualified for his many missteps, 17 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:07.159 including any number of false accusations and claims inspiring a 18 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:11.920 near riot at the Capitol, numerous indictments and convictions not 19 00:01:11.959 --> 00:01:15.760 only one, but did so handily comfortably winning both the 20 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.640 electoral College and the popular vote. And he did in 21 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:24.359 the country where registered Democrats significantly outnumbered Republicans and women 22 00:01:24.400 --> 00:01:29.040 who generally support Democrats vote in greater numbers. It's also 23 00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:31.920 unfathoable because many of the communities who can normally be 24 00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:35.840 counted on by Democrats for their support, like Latino, black 25 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:38.760 as well as young people, did not do so in 26 00:01:38.799 --> 00:01:43.920 the record numbers for this election cycle. Considering mister Trump's rhetoric, 27 00:01:43.959 --> 00:01:46.480 it seems as if they voted against their own best 28 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:51.000 interests Now, is this an anomaly, a harbinger of the future, 29 00:01:51.439 --> 00:01:54.840 or a reflection of a deeply rooted malaise in American 30 00:01:54.879 --> 00:01:59.159 politics and culture. It's an awful lot to unpack. But 31 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:02.200 joining us now for some intelligent conversation on the subject 32 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:06.359 is someone uniquely qualified to add an insider's perspective to 33 00:02:06.439 --> 00:02:11.159 our current situation. Jim Allion's career spans four plus decades 34 00:02:11.199 --> 00:02:15.840 as a researcher, resource manager, congressional staff, and a congressionally 35 00:02:15.879 --> 00:02:20.240 confirmed political appointee in the Clinton administration and the US 36 00:02:20.280 --> 00:02:24.680 Department of Agriculture, overseeing the US Forest Service and the 37 00:02:24.759 --> 00:02:30.400 Natural Resources Conservation Service formerly the Soil Conservation Service. Under 38 00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:34.319 President Obama, Jim oversaw the Bureau of Land Management in 39 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:37.599 the Department of the Interior. While working in Congress during 40 00:02:37.639 --> 00:02:41.199 the nineteen nineties, Jim helped develop the Farmland and Wetlands 41 00:02:41.240 --> 00:02:46.240 Protection Programs, the Forest Services Forest Legacy Programs, and the 42 00:02:46.400 --> 00:02:50.840 Urban and Community Forestry Assistant Programs, all of which benefit 43 00:02:50.919 --> 00:02:55.199 landowners and communities in our region. Jim has also authored 44 00:02:55.280 --> 00:02:58.840 legislation to study the New York New Jersey Highlands, which 45 00:02:58.879 --> 00:03:02.319 has led to the concert of thousands of acres in 46 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:07.039 the northeast. Jim and his wife, Jen Palmieri, was also 47 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:09.639 known for her best selling books Dear Madam President, a 48 00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.479 podcast about women and leadership roles, and her frequent appearances 49 00:03:13.479 --> 00:03:18.240 on Morning Joe. Split their time between their homes in Annapolis, Maryland, 50 00:03:18.439 --> 00:03:21.479 and West Milford, New Jersey. He is also one of 51 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:24.800 my oldest friends. I have known this gentleman for sixty 52 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:27.800 years and I'm proud to say so. Please welcome my 53 00:03:27.879 --> 00:03:30.960 good friend back to being, Frank Jim Lyons. Jim, thank 54 00:03:30.960 --> 00:03:32.039 you for joining us again. 55 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:37.159 Well, thanks for the invisentation, Frank, and thanks for acknowledging 56 00:03:37.199 --> 00:03:39.360 that we're both over sixty years old. 57 00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:43.360 Yeah, well, somebody has to do. They should have know. 58 00:03:43.479 --> 00:03:46.520 But my intro and yours, by the way, I want 59 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:49.159 to say, was very truncated. As with most of my guests, 60 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:51.240 You've done a lot more. But if I read all 61 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.560 of it, we'd spend the first half hour just talking 62 00:03:53.560 --> 00:03:56.560 about your qualifications. And we've got an awful lot to 63 00:03:56.639 --> 00:04:00.439 talk about today, an awful lot. You know. Let's start 64 00:04:00.439 --> 00:04:02.639 at the top, I guess, and work our way down 65 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:07.280 in your mind. Was there a single deciding factor as 66 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:08.560 to why this happened? 67 00:04:10.879 --> 00:04:16.639 Well, it's obviously a question that will be debated for many, 68 00:04:16.680 --> 00:04:24.279 many years, you know. I think certainly, you know President 69 00:04:24.360 --> 00:04:30.399 Biden's first performance in the first debate, they had raised 70 00:04:30.399 --> 00:04:35.480 serious questions about his health and his well being, and 71 00:04:35.480 --> 00:04:38.959 and I think it kind of accelerated the debate and 72 00:04:39.000 --> 00:04:43.279 discussion within democratic circles about whether or not he was 73 00:04:43.319 --> 00:04:48.399 the right candidate to represent the party in the presidential elections. 74 00:04:49.279 --> 00:04:54.720 I think you know that. And the accumulation of issues 75 00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:01.399 that presented themselves to this administration, and the difficulty they 76 00:05:01.399 --> 00:05:04.279 have had trying to get some of the issues that 77 00:05:04.399 --> 00:05:10.560 were priorities done in part due to interference or at 78 00:05:10.600 --> 00:05:13.120 a minimum of the lack of assistance on the part 79 00:05:13.160 --> 00:05:17.000 of Republicans. It's kind of accelerated the whole process. But 80 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:22.879 I think most most important Democrats as well as other 81 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:29.199 Americans saw and unfortunately will come to recognize the threat 82 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:32.879 that Donald Trump presented in the second term. And I 83 00:05:32.879 --> 00:05:36.759 think all of that, you know, weighed heavily on the 84 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.120 president when he was considering his that his President Biden, 85 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.399 when he was considering his path forward, and certainly among 86 00:05:45.759 --> 00:05:48.800 many in the leadership who were debating whether or not 87 00:05:48.879 --> 00:05:55.959 to encourage him to resign, which candidate might best represent 88 00:05:56.040 --> 00:06:00.279 the party in the presidential election and had to seed. 89 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.800 And you can imagine how gut wretching that was for 90 00:06:03.879 --> 00:06:08.680 leadership in the party. Joe Biden's been around for many, many, 91 00:06:08.720 --> 00:06:13.000 many years and has been incredibly successful as a legislator 92 00:06:13.519 --> 00:06:17.759 and also had a very successful run in the White 93 00:06:17.759 --> 00:06:22.759 House until his health started to fail. So it was tough, 94 00:06:23.600 --> 00:06:28.160 but decisions had made an Unfortunately, uh, you know, one 95 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:32.720 of the factors that may wade into Trump's President elect 96 00:06:32.759 --> 00:06:38.720 Trump's being elected might have just been, you know, the 97 00:06:38.720 --> 00:06:42.319 timing time was running out. They've they had established a 98 00:06:43.439 --> 00:06:49.600 pretty robust strategy, and the Democrats had to scramble put 99 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:53.399 the pieces together and Kamala Harris, or Vice president and 100 00:06:53.480 --> 00:06:59.519 President's nominee, did a fantastic job, but in many respects 101 00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:01.639 that may have just been too late for lots of reasons. 102 00:07:02.439 --> 00:07:04.800 Well, you know, Jimmy brought up, I think an interesting 103 00:07:04.879 --> 00:07:09.199 point where, particularly with the Bidens situation, I saw what 104 00:07:09.240 --> 00:07:12.279 you saw and was during the debate and was shocked 105 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.040 by it and was willing to accept the fact that 106 00:07:15.120 --> 00:07:19.480 he may not be suitable to go forward out of 107 00:07:19.519 --> 00:07:26.519 one incident. Yet Donald Trump's had multiple incidents of confusion. 108 00:07:27.079 --> 00:07:29.439 I mean, we could go down the list from you know, 109 00:07:29.759 --> 00:07:33.480 eating the dogs and cats, you know, these outrageous statements, 110 00:07:34.040 --> 00:07:37.759 literally physical missteps. He had difficulty getting into that garbage 111 00:07:37.759 --> 00:07:41.519 truck the other day, and yet he was continually given 112 00:07:41.839 --> 00:07:45.879 a pass where Biden was called out if you will, 113 00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:50.600 and Democrats responded accordingly, and then with every step that 114 00:07:50.720 --> 00:07:55.319 Vice President Harris made was also called out for impropriety, this, that, 115 00:07:55.439 --> 00:07:58.120 and the other thing. So it seemed to be a 116 00:07:58.240 --> 00:08:00.759 very unequal treatment, at least in the minds of the 117 00:08:00.759 --> 00:08:04.439 American people. That's one of those unfathomable things that I 118 00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:08.199 was talking about in my introduction. How did we get there? 119 00:08:08.680 --> 00:08:11.199 Can you put a finger on and I put you 120 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.920 on the spot. People can't see this, but I know 121 00:08:13.959 --> 00:08:16.120 I'm putting you on the spot a little bit. What 122 00:08:16.439 --> 00:08:19.800 happened there? What was And we could use goose and 123 00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.720 gander literally because maybe we can talk a little bit 124 00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:26.600 more about it. Is the role that sexism may play 125 00:08:26.639 --> 00:08:29.600 in American politics something we do have to talk about. 126 00:08:29.920 --> 00:08:33.320 But is what good for the goose good for the gander? 127 00:08:33.480 --> 00:08:34.320 Doesn't seem to be. 128 00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:40.039 Well, this is one of the things that's in my 129 00:08:40.120 --> 00:08:43.799 mind incomprehensible. I mean here in his first run for 130 00:08:43.840 --> 00:08:50.919 the presidency. You know, his behavior, his treatment of women, 131 00:08:53.080 --> 00:08:59.519 you know, and frankly, his his tendency to exaggerate about 132 00:08:59.519 --> 00:09:02.720 his wealth not pay his bills. They were all known. 133 00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:06.080 Certainly in the New York metropolitan area. People understood that. 134 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:08.200 And you can talk to a lot of people will 135 00:09:08.200 --> 00:09:12.120 tell you horror stories about contractors who were never reimbursed 136 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:17.440 by the Trump Organization for work on casinos on the 137 00:09:17.519 --> 00:09:21.559 Jersey Shore one one good example. It's just hard to 138 00:09:21.639 --> 00:09:26.919 understand and and and it's hard particularly you and I 139 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:35.159 have people with law enforcement backgrounds in our background. I 140 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.039 dare say my dad and yours would roll over in 141 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:43.679 their graves if they saw the outcome of this presidential election, 142 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:47.759 it's just unfathomable. Yet here we are. It's it's just 143 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.159 difficult to explain. Worse than that, as a result of 144 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:59.360 the Supreme Court appointees that President Trump nominated and were 145 00:09:59.399 --> 00:10:06.039 ultimately affirmed by a Republican Senate. Either way, he'd get 146 00:10:06.080 --> 00:10:13.240 exonerated because because of the position they've taken with regard 147 00:10:13.320 --> 00:10:18.799 to the potential to incarcerate or at least to try 148 00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:24.159 a president. So this is the best of all worlds 149 00:10:24.279 --> 00:10:30.440 and out come for him. It raises serious questions about 150 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:36.759 the strength of our union, about the health of our democracy, 151 00:10:37.159 --> 00:10:43.480 and in what it is that Americans, all Americans seek 152 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:48.039 in the person they would like to see in the 153 00:10:48.080 --> 00:10:52.159 most powerful seat in the nation. Serious questions. 154 00:10:52.240 --> 00:10:56.600 Let's talk about messaging. Okay, you're aware, and you mentioned 155 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.240 your wife, Jennifer Palmieri, who is now on MSNBC, a 156 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:05.639 best selling author, etc. Was Hillary Clinton's director of communication. 157 00:11:05.840 --> 00:11:11.000 So you know all these things are knowledgeable, and as 158 00:11:11.000 --> 00:11:15.200 are you. But so we understand the importance of marketing, 159 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:20.440 if you will. And messaging, Okay, what messages people receiving? 160 00:11:21.039 --> 00:11:23.840 And it seems somehow and I have a quote that 161 00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.039 I want to read for you. Also that the Republicans 162 00:11:28.039 --> 00:11:32.360 the GOP managed to zero in and call it playing 163 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:36.600 to people's fears or whatever, but delivering a message that 164 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:41.679 seemed to resonate more so than the Democratics. The Democrats message. 165 00:11:41.799 --> 00:11:43.840 Let me read a quote that I got and we'll 166 00:11:43.879 --> 00:11:46.960 keep it anonymous from Facebook, and I thought it was 167 00:11:47.039 --> 00:11:50.840 very telling. And this gentleman said, people voted for an 168 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:55.759 improved daily economy for working class people. Daily living expenses 169 00:11:55.799 --> 00:12:00.759 are unmanageable for so many milk, eggs, bread, bread, mortgage 170 00:12:00.919 --> 00:12:05.799 taxes rent. I'm not saying I think the GOP will 171 00:12:05.840 --> 00:12:10.120 rectify the situation, but this is the sentiment here out 172 00:12:10.159 --> 00:12:13.120 in the USA that I encounter. Wall Street is great, 173 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:16.639 but the kitchen table is where the stress on families 174 00:12:16.840 --> 00:12:19.879 is a little spelling error there. And what's interesting is 175 00:12:19.919 --> 00:12:22.639 kind of the role reversal where that used to be 176 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:25.879 the mantra of you will if the Democratic Party seems 177 00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:29.919 to have somehow been turned in messaging that it's the 178 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:32.559 GOP that's going to do this for people. You know, 179 00:12:32.919 --> 00:12:36.279 we've always thought, you know, and it's no secret that 180 00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:40.919 the GOP economic policies trickle down reward the wealthy, and 181 00:12:41.000 --> 00:12:44.320 what comes down will stimulate the rest of the economy. 182 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:48.440 So therefore it's rewarding the wealthy that has somehow been 183 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:51.600 turned around where now we're your best friend, We're going 184 00:12:51.679 --> 00:12:54.480 to put a chicken in every pot, and somehow they 185 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:58.440 managed to get people to believe it. Now, just to 186 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.120 finish that point, if you will give me another minute, 187 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:07.720 where the Democratic message might be a little bit more 188 00:13:07.720 --> 00:13:10.799 of an esoteric nature. If you see what I'm following 189 00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:16.559 with great ideals of equality of inclusivity. These are admirable 190 00:13:16.600 --> 00:13:20.559 ideals and points, but are they truly translating as this 191 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.600 person said to American families in areas where those are 192 00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:27.840 high brow and they're great for intelligent thinkers. But I 193 00:13:27.919 --> 00:13:30.279 need to put food on my table and a roof 194 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:34.039 over my head. And somehow the Republicans managed to convince 195 00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:37.159 people that they're the party to do it. Long winded, 196 00:13:37.200 --> 00:13:39.679 but please address that if you would. 197 00:13:40.320 --> 00:13:45.000 Well, it's probably no surprise. I have no answer for that. 198 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:50.600 It is baffling. I think the most people, not just Democrats, 199 00:13:51.320 --> 00:13:54.679 and I you know, I think part of the problem 200 00:13:54.879 --> 00:14:01.120 is that Republicans and and I've seen this on the 201 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:04.559 floor of the House and the Senate as well as 202 00:14:04.559 --> 00:14:09.960 in campaigns. You know, they talk a good story about 203 00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:15.720 how they're going to improve people's plight. But generally, and 204 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:19.039 I'm sure people will argue with this, but generally, I 205 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:21.039 think it's been the Democrats who have brought to the 206 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.679 floor of the House and the Senate strategies that might 207 00:14:26.320 --> 00:14:34.120 better assist and enable more average citizens as opposed to 208 00:14:34.120 --> 00:14:41.559 the wealthy get by. But the Democrats don't seem to 209 00:14:41.559 --> 00:14:45.559 be able to win the war of words on these issues. 210 00:14:46.200 --> 00:14:48.840 And the Republicans that do a very good job of 211 00:14:48.840 --> 00:14:53.360 demogoguing this and you know, and making making it sound like, 212 00:14:53.639 --> 00:15:02.480 you know, they're there to save democracy, to ensure people's 213 00:15:02.480 --> 00:15:06.360 well being, and and you know, God forbid save us 214 00:15:06.360 --> 00:15:10.200 from the onslaught on the Mexican border, et cetera, et cetera, 215 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:15.879 et cetera. Uh, that really seems to resonate. And I've 216 00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:20.399 talked to friends, friends in Congress. I'm a former student 217 00:15:20.399 --> 00:15:25.720 who's a Republican in Congress, and I won't reference that individual, 218 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:28.919 but I would say in general, people can't quite explain it, 219 00:15:29.519 --> 00:15:33.480 can't quite explain it, and are not sure how to, 220 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:39.000 you know, rectify the situation. Except these messages are amplified 221 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.639 in many ways. I mean, you know, we now have, 222 00:15:44.879 --> 00:15:46.840 you know, on a regular basis, opposing views of the 223 00:15:46.840 --> 00:15:51.799 world between let's say NBC and MSNBC and Fox. And 224 00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:55.039 you know, I have had occasions, and I have you know, 225 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:58.919 relatives who are Fox fans. I've had occasions of you know, 226 00:15:59.759 --> 00:16:02.320 being at my house listening to a story and then 227 00:16:02.399 --> 00:16:06.000 driving a total of fifteen minutes to my nearest cousin's 228 00:16:06.039 --> 00:16:10.559 house and seeing reference to the same story and wondering, 229 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:12.440 as I walk in the door and listen to the story, 230 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:16.759 is that the same story? Was that the same issue? 231 00:16:18.519 --> 00:16:24.000 You know? And there's no filter, there's no register or 232 00:16:24.159 --> 00:16:29.320 meter to determine, you know, what's more truthful or less truthful. 233 00:16:30.279 --> 00:16:31.919 We're left to judge. And I think one of the 234 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:36.600 big challenges we face as a demo democracy is all 235 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:40.399 the various sources of information that people can go to 236 00:16:40.399 --> 00:16:46.000 to become informed, not knowing in many instances where that 237 00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:50.240 information comes from, whether it's accurate or not. I mean, 238 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:54.200 most Americans are busy earning a living during their day, 239 00:16:54.279 --> 00:16:57.039 so they can't sit around and you know, kind of 240 00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:00.639 compare notes between one network and another. You know, they 241 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:05.160 become familiar with a given pundit or you know, a 242 00:17:05.160 --> 00:17:08.279 given newscast. I mean, look at the following for Joe 243 00:17:08.359 --> 00:17:13.480 Rogan as an example. You know, I I question his 244 00:17:13.559 --> 00:17:17.880 authenticity and and reliability in terms of the information he 245 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:24.400 provides his popularity. Well, that's the point that he attracts 246 00:17:24.440 --> 00:17:30.319 a tremendous audience, a big Hispanic audience, in fact, I 247 00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:34.839 know from from friends and colleagues, and who are Hispanic? 248 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:40.359 To be clear, And and I I ask myself, you know, 249 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.680 where where does one go to get the truth anymore? 250 00:17:44.519 --> 00:17:47.599 Do we even know what truth is anymore? But the 251 00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:50.400 consequences of the messages that are being sent through these 252 00:17:50.440 --> 00:17:56.680 different channels, these different outlets, two audiences who may in 253 00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.559 fact choose the stations or channels they listen to based 254 00:18:00.599 --> 00:18:02.839 on the nature of the news and whether or not 255 00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:07.559 it makes them feel good as opposed to bad. Regardless 256 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:12.599 of the accuracy, I think, you know, just confounds and 257 00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:17.960 confuses and makes it difficult to understand what is true 258 00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:21.799 anymore and what is reliable anymore? And where one can 259 00:18:21.880 --> 00:18:25.000 go to get the most accurate information possible. I mean, 260 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:30.119 imagine if you had ten different networks reporting reporting on 261 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.720 the stock market. I mean, there you have a number 262 00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.519 and it's put up every day, and people know whether 263 00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:38.039 the market is up or down. But imagine if you 264 00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:44.039 had ten different ways to interpret that number. What would 265 00:18:44.079 --> 00:18:47.640 that do to investors? You know, how would they how 266 00:18:47.920 --> 00:18:49.599 how could they judge whether or not we have a 267 00:18:49.640 --> 00:18:53.079 strong economy a weak economy, whether or not and where 268 00:18:53.119 --> 00:18:57.000 they should invest or not. Well, I happen to think 269 00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:01.039 that the decisions we make with regard to aplat leaders 270 00:19:01.119 --> 00:19:05.960 are as important, if not more important, than the high 271 00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.480 then the highs and lows of the stock market, because 272 00:19:08.559 --> 00:19:10.680 ultimately those people, in the decisions they make, are going 273 00:19:10.720 --> 00:19:14.160 to impact that market. But yet we have one place 274 00:19:14.200 --> 00:19:17.480 to go to get the numbers. We have dozens of 275 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:21.799 places to go to get an interpretation of the state 276 00:19:21.880 --> 00:19:25.279 of our economy, the state of the union, and even 277 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:28.759 the health you know, of the nation overall. And it's 278 00:19:28.799 --> 00:19:31.400 confound and confusing and to some degree, and I think 279 00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:36.400 this has been documented. You know, it's not all intended 280 00:19:36.440 --> 00:19:40.160 to provide news. Much of it is produced by the 281 00:19:40.240 --> 00:19:44.160 Russians and others to simply influence our thinking. We used 282 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:45.240 to call that propaganda. 283 00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.319 Yeah, you know, it's interesting and it's a perfect segue. 284 00:19:49.359 --> 00:19:51.279 I wanted to talk a little bit about social media 285 00:19:51.680 --> 00:19:53.920 and the plans and you see them all the time. 286 00:19:53.960 --> 00:19:57.440 I used a practical example where a good for a 287 00:19:57.559 --> 00:20:01.000 very intelligent woman a master's degree, et cetera. And posted 288 00:20:01.039 --> 00:20:05.559 something the other day about how no one was memorializing 289 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:10.039 that the Vietnam War had ended on that date, and 290 00:20:10.079 --> 00:20:12.640 I said, I beg your pardon. That's because it ended 291 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.319 in April. But you have to do a little research 292 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:18.240 for that. In the past two gen we've talked about 293 00:20:18.279 --> 00:20:23.039 cognitive dissonance, where people tend to gravitate to points they 294 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:25.839 want to believe in Okay, that they feel are important 295 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:30.119 that reinforce their own beliefs. So you have this constant 296 00:20:30.119 --> 00:20:32.559 barrage And I said, you know, that's a plant, as 297 00:20:32.599 --> 00:20:37.319 you mentioned, from Russian and Chinese, simply to create discord 298 00:20:37.440 --> 00:20:41.200 and rancor, if you will, between Americans. And it's been 299 00:20:41.319 --> 00:20:43.400 very successful. And it's a question I had a little 300 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:46.599 bit further down, but I think it's more pertinent to 301 00:20:46.640 --> 00:20:49.319 talk about now, and part of that is the fact 302 00:20:49.319 --> 00:20:52.880 that it creates this inflammatory rhetoric. And I think we're 303 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.799 all guilty of it to a degree as a matter 304 00:20:54.839 --> 00:20:59.160 of fact. And if you follow my social profile, you know, 305 00:20:59.200 --> 00:21:02.119 and I have been and I've had said difficult things, 306 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:05.720 and I don't necessarily apologize for them because I see 307 00:21:05.759 --> 00:21:08.640 my role as a provocateur. If I see trouble, and 308 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:12.039 I see a present, a clear and present danger now 309 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:15.599 and I write things accordingly. But I also every once 310 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.039 in a while have to catch myself that the rhetoric, 311 00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:22.640 the accusatory rhetoric, ratchets things up, and it just keeps 312 00:21:22.680 --> 00:21:25.279 going higher and higher. So your thoughts, how do we 313 00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:31.440 deal with this superheated environment where we in somebody we 314 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:34.400 resort to name calling. I try not to. Somebody called 315 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:37.119 me a moron the other day, so be it might 316 00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:41.160 be accurate, but is it really necessary within any conversation? 317 00:21:41.559 --> 00:21:44.480 But yet it seems, Jim, that we're all guilty of it. 318 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.359 It's not a one way street. How did we get there? 319 00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:48.440 How do we get out of it? 320 00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:54.480 Well, you've alluded to this, Frank, But you know, people 321 00:21:54.680 --> 00:22:00.640 like to engage in this course, sometimes inflicting views and values. 322 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:07.119 I mean it can be you know, over a political ideology, 323 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:12.359 it can be over you know, the impression of you know, 324 00:22:12.880 --> 00:22:21.319 a company or you know, uh sports team. You know, 325 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:30.359 Americans love to discuss, debate, argue over these issues. The 326 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:37.240 difference today is news is presented in many different forms 327 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:43.000 through many different outlets, and there are no filters or 328 00:22:43.079 --> 00:22:47.720 mechanisms to determine the truth and accuracy of those things. 329 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:50.920 And I'm not sure you could even create that's a mechanism, 330 00:22:51.039 --> 00:22:54.400 because beauty is in the eye and beholder, and one 331 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.440 observes a particular action or activity. You and I watch 332 00:22:58.480 --> 00:22:59.039 football all. 333 00:22:59.000 --> 00:23:01.240 The time, and then their own light. It's true, you. 334 00:23:02.839 --> 00:23:05.440 Hear a lot of different interpretations. So I don't know 335 00:23:05.440 --> 00:23:08.880 how I don't know how we fix that problem. My 336 00:23:09.640 --> 00:23:17.319 greatest concern though, is that many many Americans, particularly new Americans, 337 00:23:17.599 --> 00:23:20.960 you know, whether you know they're recent immigrants or they 338 00:23:21.000 --> 00:23:25.720 are young people, they you know, they they don't know 339 00:23:25.759 --> 00:23:27.640 the way things used to be when there were a 340 00:23:27.640 --> 00:23:31.480 few networks, and while they might have disagreed slightly about 341 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:35.440 you know, a set of facts, you know, the differences 342 00:23:35.480 --> 00:23:40.039 were not as huge or gross, if you will, as 343 00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:43.400 they are today. And I imagine it's incredibly confusing. So 344 00:23:43.480 --> 00:23:47.279 people probably pick, you know, their favorite network that provides 345 00:23:47.319 --> 00:23:50.039 information in ways that they either prefer or they think 346 00:23:50.079 --> 00:23:55.799 as accurate or as timely, and and they base you know, 347 00:23:55.880 --> 00:23:58.720 their decisions and judgments on that. But we do know, 348 00:23:59.039 --> 00:24:02.839 for example, you know that you know, the Russians are 349 00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:07.000 constantly sending messages. You know, the Clinton campaign had to 350 00:24:07.039 --> 00:24:12.079 deal with that issue, misinformation that was online coming from 351 00:24:12.160 --> 00:24:18.119 the Russians, unfortunately proven after the fact. You know, information 352 00:24:18.799 --> 00:24:24.000 now is more subjective than I think ever before. And 353 00:24:24.119 --> 00:24:28.440 you know, how one sees things or interprets things is 354 00:24:28.440 --> 00:24:30.920 always subjective to some degree. But then there is a 355 00:24:30.960 --> 00:24:34.160 body of fact that should serve as a foundation for 356 00:24:34.480 --> 00:24:39.640 you know, messaging what I would characterize as truth. I 357 00:24:39.640 --> 00:24:43.160 think some believe today that you know, there is no 358 00:24:43.400 --> 00:24:47.200 such thing as truth. It's all a matter of interpretation, 359 00:24:47.559 --> 00:24:51.640 and you know, and one's point of view and position 360 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:54.799 I you know, allude to the fact that you know, 361 00:24:54.960 --> 00:24:57.960 I have a cousin who has Fox on twenty four 362 00:24:58.000 --> 00:25:02.680 to seven. I tend to watch MSNBC and maybe ABC 363 00:25:02.839 --> 00:25:07.920 and NBC and CBS from time to time. But I 364 00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:13.400 could not convince my cousin that something he's seen on 365 00:25:13.519 --> 00:25:19.440 Fox was twisted or maybe interpreted in a way that 366 00:25:19.519 --> 00:25:23.160 may not be factually correct. Sorry to offend Fox, but 367 00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:28.640 they deserve it. And this is what makes it so difficult, 368 00:25:28.680 --> 00:25:30.640 I think, to sort things out. And there are so 369 00:25:30.839 --> 00:25:33.400 many outlets, it's even difficult to know where people are 370 00:25:33.400 --> 00:25:36.920 getting their information from anymore so, given that people go 371 00:25:36.920 --> 00:25:39.359 to the people that they think they can trust, whether 372 00:25:39.400 --> 00:25:42.480 it's a Joe Rogan or you know, maybe it's a 373 00:25:43.000 --> 00:25:45.519 you know, maybe it's a different pundit, et cetera, and 374 00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:50.279 you know, and and these individuals and through their programming, 375 00:25:50.359 --> 00:25:54.279 have done an excellent job of attracting an audience. Oftentimes 376 00:25:54.279 --> 00:25:58.279 it's a mix of news and entertainment and opinion. I mean, 377 00:25:58.279 --> 00:26:02.079 how you can see that on on Saturday mornings when 378 00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.480 you're trying to figure out who's playing college football that day. 379 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:09.559 So I don't know how you fix that problem, Frank, 380 00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:15.720 but yeah, I think it is undermining our ability to 381 00:26:15.920 --> 00:26:19.039 understand what is true and what is not and what 382 00:26:19.079 --> 00:26:23.400 the consequences are of failing to understand, you know, what 383 00:26:23.559 --> 00:26:29.400 we could consider accurate, up to date and informed decision making. 384 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:32.400 You know, it raises a good point, and it's one 385 00:26:32.400 --> 00:26:36.000 that I discussed with my journalism students at Foredom too. 386 00:26:36.680 --> 00:26:41.680 Is the idea of journalists and journalism being totally objective, 387 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:46.960 and that's not only accurate, nor should it should it be. 388 00:26:47.680 --> 00:26:51.519 Christiana'men Poor has a really great lecture series on that 389 00:26:51.640 --> 00:26:56.759 about impartiality. At times as a reporter, you can't stay 390 00:26:56.759 --> 00:26:59.440 impartial because you see things and if they are wrong. 391 00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.480 There aren't two sides of the story, there's only one. 392 00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:06.559 A classic example of somebody who might want to justify 393 00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.160 the Nazis there is no justification. That's an extreme example, 394 00:27:11.400 --> 00:27:14.200 but just to make a particular point, and there are 395 00:27:14.279 --> 00:27:17.759 still some people are I mean, it's been reported that 396 00:27:18.359 --> 00:27:22.519 Trump at one point said, well, Hitler did some good things. 397 00:27:22.240 --> 00:27:25.240 There's an example of that. It's up to a journalist 398 00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.880 to stop and say no. There's a great little meme too. 399 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:33.119 You know, a journalist doesn't look out the window and say, gee, 400 00:27:33.119 --> 00:27:35.240 I wonder if it's raining or it's sunny. Your job 401 00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:38.119