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<v Speaker 1>Stay tuned to the end of the episode for an

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<v Speaker 1>important update. This is Dennis for no in Australia.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll play at Long Island Golf Club here in Melbourne

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<v Speaker 2>and welcome to golf sad not eight one. I think

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<v Speaker 2>another way to understand mindfulness, especially with respect to sports,

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<v Speaker 2>is a soft openness. You don't want to be focused

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<v Speaker 2>tightly on any particular thing because then you're oblivious to

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<v Speaker 2>everything else around it. So let me give a different

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<v Speaker 2>sport as an example. I'm on horseback and I'm racing

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<v Speaker 2>through the woods. If I say to myself, watch out

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<v Speaker 2>for the branches so I don't get knocked off the horse.

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<v Speaker 2>So I'm vigilant. I'm focusing on those branches. Now as

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<v Speaker 2>I ride through the woods, I may stumble over a

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<v Speaker 2>boulder because I was not paying attention to anything but

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<v Speaker 2>the branches. So mindfulness is different from vigilance. When you're vigilant,

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<v Speaker 2>you have a particular stimulus in mind. When you're mindful,

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<v Speaker 2>you're just there.

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<v Speaker 1>A mindful golfer needs a mindful body, as explained by

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<v Speaker 1>the mother of mindfulness, doctor Ellen Langer.

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<v Speaker 2>This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from

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<v Speaker 2>great Golf minds to help you lower your score and

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<v Speaker 2>raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Ellen, Hi, Fred, thanks for having me.

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<v Speaker 1>It's great to have you on the show. You know,

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<v Speaker 1>Golf Smarter clearly now that we're in our twentieth year

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<v Speaker 1>of doing this podcast, the intention always was about mindfulness

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<v Speaker 1>in golf, and you know, I've always felt that if

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<v Speaker 1>you understand strategy and you understand how to control your

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<v Speaker 1>emotions on the golf course, you can be a better

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<v Speaker 1>player than just working on your swing mechanics. And a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of golf instructors have agreed with that. And as

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<v Speaker 1>someone who's more of a student than an instructor, I'm

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<v Speaker 1>not an instructor. I'm here to learn from everybody. I'm

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<v Speaker 1>really excited to have you on the show today.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>So your work in mindfulness goes back decades and I'm

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<v Speaker 1>just curious how it ended up with.

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<v Speaker 2>Golf because people like you have called me. You know

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<v Speaker 2>that you can do anything you're doing playing golf, eating

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<v Speaker 2>a sandwich, doing a podcast mindfully or mindlessly, and the

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<v Speaker 2>consequences of doing it mindfully as opposed to mindlessly are enormous.

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<v Speaker 2>And so it's relevant to virtually everything. There are things

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<v Speaker 2>about golf, you know. I use it as an example

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<v Speaker 2>when I'm teaching often because when students or anybody doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>successfully complete whatever they're trying to do, they often become frustrated.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I raise the simple question of if you

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<v Speaker 2>got a hole in one every time you swung the club,

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<v Speaker 2>would that be fun? And just think about it for

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<v Speaker 2>a second, people would realize, well, there's no game anymore.

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<v Speaker 2>So that when you recognize you can either do things

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<v Speaker 2>perfectly mindfully mindlessly or imperfectly mindlessly, I think then you

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<v Speaker 2>go a little easier on yourself. It's also you know

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<v Speaker 2>that I've done a lot of some writing and a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of talking about all sorts of sports, not just golf.

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<v Speaker 2>And the thing that people don't realize is there are

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<v Speaker 2>two general aspects to what you need to do. One

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<v Speaker 2>is off the course, the other is on the course.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, so that if you didn't sleep well, if

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<v Speaker 2>you had a fight with your spouse, all of those

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<v Speaker 2>things are going to clearly affect your golf. And learning

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<v Speaker 2>what mindfulness is all about will help you enormously off

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<v Speaker 2>the court, and then of course, and then on the course,

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<v Speaker 2>there are particular things one should be doing. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>with any sport, people tend to think they should do

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<v Speaker 2>it over and over and over again until they can

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<v Speaker 2>do it perfectly and make it second nature. And whenever

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<v Speaker 2>you hear yourself saying anything about second nature, recognize that

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<v Speaker 2>means you're being mindless. And so I was on this

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<v Speaker 2>television show decades ago with Tiger Wood's father, and so

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<v Speaker 2>when he was asked how did Tiger Woods get so

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<v Speaker 2>good that his father's practice practice practice, And then I

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<v Speaker 2>get on, I say, well, you know, practice often makes imperfect,

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<v Speaker 2>not perfect. If you're practicing to achieve the end of

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<v Speaker 2>not having to think about what you're doing, you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to lock yourself in and not be as good as

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<v Speaker 2>you can be. If when you practice, your intention is

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<v Speaker 2>each time to notice subtle difference is in what you're doing,

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<v Speaker 2>the outcome and so on, then the practice will help.

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<v Speaker 2>But sadly, when most of us are taught sports instruments

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<v Speaker 2>had to study for a test, you know that what

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<v Speaker 2>people think they should do is repeat it, repeat it,

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<v Speaker 2>repeat it as is so that they don't have to

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<v Speaker 2>think about it. And also, you know, why would you

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<v Speaker 2>want to do anything if you don't show up for it.

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<v Speaker 2>I gave a talk the other day. Then something occurred

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<v Speaker 2>to me that after doing this for so long, it

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<v Speaker 2>would surprise me that it took so long for me

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<v Speaker 2>to come to this. But it was a talk on happiness,

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<v Speaker 2>and what I realized was that can robots be happy?

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<v Speaker 2>And of course not well when we're being mindless. We're

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<v Speaker 2>no different from robots. So the answer to improved game,

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<v Speaker 2>the answer to improved health and increased happiness is to

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<v Speaker 2>be mindful. Now you should, now, Fred, ask me the question,

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<v Speaker 2>so what do you mean by mindfulness?

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<v Speaker 1>Actually I just wrote that down.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, that was my next question. When people think of

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<v Speaker 2>mindfulness too often, they just think of meditation, and meditation

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<v Speaker 2>is not mindfulness. Meditation is a practice you undergo in

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<v Speaker 2>order to result in post meditative mindfulness. Mindfulness as we

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<v Speaker 2>study it is very different. It's not a practice. Essentially,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a way of being that follows almost directly from

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<v Speaker 2>the realization that uncertainty is the rule, not the exception.

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<v Speaker 2>Everything is always changing, Everything looks different from different perspectives,

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<v Speaker 2>So you can't know now. Parents, teachers, golf instructors tend

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<v Speaker 2>to speak in absolutes. Hold the club this way, do X,

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<v Speaker 2>Y or Z, and that's fine in certain circumstances, but

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<v Speaker 2>not in others. So one of the things the way

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<v Speaker 2>I try to bring this home to people is the

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<v Speaker 2>one thing I think everybody thinks they know is how

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<v Speaker 2>much is one plus one? So Fred, how much is

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<v Speaker 2>one plus one two? No, not always. If you add

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<v Speaker 2>one pile of laundry plus one pile of laundry, one

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<v Speaker 2>plus one is one. You add one cloud plus one

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<v Speaker 2>cloud one plus one is one. The other day, somebody

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<v Speaker 2>sent me something where if you have one pizza and

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<v Speaker 2>you add one pizza, you have two pizzas. However, if

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<v Speaker 2>you have one lasagna and you add one lasagna, one

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<v Speaker 2>plus one is one. It's just a bigger lasagna. Now

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<v Speaker 2>beyond me that when you add one plus one to

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<v Speaker 2>get two, you're using a base ten number system. If

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<v Speaker 2>you were using a base two number now you don't

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<v Speaker 2>really have to understand anything deep about this, But if

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<v Speaker 2>you're using a base two number system, one plus one

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<v Speaker 2>would be written as ten. And what I'm fond of

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<v Speaker 2>saying now is the next time somebody asks you how

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<v Speaker 2>much is one plus one, you're going to know it depends.

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<v Speaker 2>And now you have choices. When you're mindful, you have choices.

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<v Speaker 2>When you're mindless, you don't. Again, you're responding more like

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<v Speaker 2>a rather robot. So you know you could say one, ten, two,

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<v Speaker 2>and probably other things as well. All right, So what

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<v Speaker 2>I found over decades now, forty five years of research,

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<v Speaker 2>sadly is that virtually all of us are mindless almost

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<v Speaker 2>all the time. We're not there. But when you're not there,

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<v Speaker 2>you're not there to know you're not there. But it's

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<v Speaker 2>clear to me that this is sadly true, and the

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<v Speaker 2>way to be there is very simple. So let's say

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<v Speaker 2>you are going to visit me at my house right now.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm in Dartmouth, mass You'd walk in, you wouldn't have

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<v Speaker 2>to practice anything. You've never been here before, so you

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<v Speaker 2>would notice things, right. You might notice a painting and

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<v Speaker 2>wonder if I did it in some books, see some

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<v Speaker 2>things that seem strange to you, say, you would be

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<v Speaker 2>being mindful, right, So when you're mindful, you're actively noticing

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<v Speaker 2>new things. Now when you think you know, So when

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<v Speaker 2>I asked you how much was one plus one? You

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<v Speaker 2>didn't do anything but just mindlessly answer to And now,

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<v Speaker 2>knowing that things change, you take a little more time

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<v Speaker 2>with it, only a few seconds more, and have a

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<v Speaker 2>choice in what you're doing. So all of his research

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<v Speaker 2>has shown me that by increasing our mindfulness, which means

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<v Speaker 2>essentially becoming more and more aware that we just don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't have to feel bad about not knowing. Nobody

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<v Speaker 2>knows because things are always changing. That when we increase

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<v Speaker 2>this act of noticing, the neurons are firing, and it's

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<v Speaker 2>literally and figuratively enlivening very early research, we make elderly

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<v Speaker 2>people more mindfully, live longer. Everything is better. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>We have people performing symphonies, whether they're mindless or mindful,

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<v Speaker 2>record the piece, play it back for people who know

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<v Speaker 2>nothing about the study. Everybody, not everybody, but over ninety

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<v Speaker 2>percent of the people prefer the mindfully played piece. But

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<v Speaker 2>I'll go back to what I said to you before,

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<v Speaker 2>which is, if you're gonna be there, show up for it.

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<v Speaker 2>And especially when we're talking about a sport that you're

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<v Speaker 2>doing basically as recreation. You know, I don't think either

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<v Speaker 2>of us right now we're speaking to the tiger woods

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<v Speaker 2>of the world, and so if you're not going to

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<v Speaker 2>play golf mindfully, why be there? Now?

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<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna be careful. Every time you ask me a question,

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<v Speaker 1>you already nailed me twice. So on the golf course,

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<v Speaker 1>when we're talking about mindfulness and being aware.

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<v Speaker 2>Of what, well several things. So when you hold that

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<v Speaker 2>golf club, if you hold it exactly the way you

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<v Speaker 2>did the last time, you're not taking advantage of the

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<v Speaker 2>way your body has changed. You know, so that let's

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<v Speaker 2>say you slept a little funny in your right shoulder

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<v Speaker 2>hurts a tiny bit, but you're aware of it, then

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<v Speaker 2>you should change the way you're standing, the way you're swinging,

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<v Speaker 2>and so on. If you've played the course many times before,

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<v Speaker 2>you may attempt to play it the same way you

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<v Speaker 2>had the last you know, the last few times, but

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<v Speaker 2>now you're different. The weather is different, the course is

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<v Speaker 2>different because they're you know, even if they've just mowed

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<v Speaker 2>it the last time you played it probably wasn't exactly

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<v Speaker 2>the same. So you want to be present and notice

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<v Speaker 2>these subtle differences. I think that you know, and then

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<v Speaker 2>the game will of course be more fun. And when

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<v Speaker 2>you hit that golf ball and it's not a perfect shot,

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<v Speaker 2>so what you know that if it were perfect again

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<v Speaker 2>each time, there'd be no game. There a way I

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<v Speaker 2>explained this to people also. So remember you were a

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<v Speaker 2>little kid and you get in an elevator and you

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<v Speaker 2>try to press that button, you can't reach it, and

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<v Speaker 2>then a parent or some adult picks you up and

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<v Speaker 2>you press the button, and then the next time you're

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<v Speaker 2>a little old that you still can. Eventually you're in

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<v Speaker 2>the elevator, you press the button and you can reach it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's the end, right, When was the last time you

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<v Speaker 2>were excited about pressing a button in an elevator? All right?

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<v Speaker 2>So you know, that's another example of how we should

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<v Speaker 2>not be so frustrated with imperfection. And when you miss

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<v Speaker 2>a shot, there's more in a stroke. There's more information

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<v Speaker 2>there than if you hit it correctly. You know you

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<v Speaker 2>hit it correctly, you don't know where You're just lucky

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<v Speaker 2>that were you were aware of why you did what

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<v Speaker 2>you did. But if you screw up in some way,

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<v Speaker 2>there's lots to pay attention to, and that when you've

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<v Speaker 2>screwed up and you're now going to try to improve

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<v Speaker 2>the next stroke, you can't be sure why you screwed up,

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<v Speaker 2>but it doesn't matter. You can still make corrections. So

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not really a golfer I'm a tennis player, and

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<v Speaker 2>so I hit the ball, and let's say that it's

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<v Speaker 2>not a good it was a fine performance. Now, if

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<v Speaker 2>I say to myself, remember to bend your legs, even

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<v Speaker 2>if that bad stroke had nothing to do with whether

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<v Speaker 2>or not my legs were ben I'm still going to

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<v Speaker 2>set myself up to be better. And it's the same

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<v Speaker 2>for all sports.

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<v Speaker 1>Sure. Sure, And you kind of dropped the word in

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<v Speaker 1>there in the last part of our conversation where you

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<v Speaker 1>said intention and where does that fall?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, Well, that's interesting. You know that when I say

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<v Speaker 2>be there for the event. You know, when you're mindful,

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<v Speaker 2>you are doing everything intentionally. You know, when you're a robot,

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<v Speaker 2>the past is determining what your present performance is going

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<v Speaker 2>to be. But I think you know, and I think

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<v Speaker 2>another way to understand mindfulness, especially with respect to sports,

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<v Speaker 2>is a soft openness. You know that you don't want

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<v Speaker 2>to be focused tightly on any particular thing because then

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<v Speaker 2>you're oblivious to everything else around it. So let me

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<v Speaker 2>give a different sport as an example. I'm on horseback

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<v Speaker 2>and I'm racing through the woods. If I say to myself,

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<v Speaker 2>watch out for the branch, the branches you know, so

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<v Speaker 2>I don't get knocked off the horse. So I'm vigilant.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm focusing on those branches. Now as I ride through

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<v Speaker 2>the woods, I may stumble over a boulder because I

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<v Speaker 2>was not paying attention to anything but the branches. So

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<v Speaker 2>my fullness is different from vigilance. When you're vigilant, you

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<v Speaker 2>have a particular stimulus in mind. When you're mindful, you're

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<v Speaker 2>just you know there in some sense.

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<v Speaker 1>You've been doing this work for so many years, for decades.

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<v Speaker 2>Since I was five, since five.

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<v Speaker 1>It's actually when I started the podcast when I was fine,

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<v Speaker 1>and you've earned the name of the Mother of Mindfulness,

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<v Speaker 1>meaning I'm inferring that you were the first one to

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<v Speaker 1>start talking about mindfulness.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, pretty much. What brought you to that point, Well,

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<v Speaker 2>it's a funny story. Actually when I before I moved

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<v Speaker 2>up to Cambridge to teach at Harvard, this was in

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<v Speaker 2>its nineteen seventy seven, I had the stereotype that everybody

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<v Speaker 2>in Cambridge was super smart if they were all at Harvard,

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<v Speaker 2>and as if everybody at Harvard was smart. And I

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<v Speaker 2>was coming from New York, where lots of people are

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<v Speaker 2>street smart, and I would notice things that in New York,

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<v Speaker 2>they just never happen. You know, how could these smart

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<v Speaker 2>people do these things? So this was a time where

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<v Speaker 2>banks closed at three o'clock and there were no cash machines. Okay,

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<v Speaker 2>so here you have parking at the bank. Now at

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<v Speaker 2>three o'clock, the bank isn't open, so it's okay to

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<v Speaker 2>park there. In New York at three zho one, the

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<v Speaker 2>spaces would be gone, but in Cambridge they were just open.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, it was, you know, silly things of this

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<v Speaker 2>sort that said to me, this was something that was

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<v Speaker 2>different from intelligence. And as I'm fond of saying, my

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<v Speaker 2>first work in all this was studying mindlessness. And then somebody,

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<v Speaker 2>and I keep trying to remember who it was, but

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<v Speaker 2>I can I don't remember, said you know you are

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<v Speaker 2>what you study, You're something mean of that sort. So

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<v Speaker 2>then I said, okay, and I turned it around and

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<v Speaker 2>started studying mindfulness. And it was at that time that

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<v Speaker 2>I became more aware of Buddhism and the Eastern use

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<v Speaker 2>of the term. And it was actually very exciting that

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<v Speaker 2>through this Western scientific perspective I was coming to many

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<v Speaker 2>of the same conclusions as the Eastern work would suggest.

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<v Speaker 2>But again, most of that is based on meditation. And

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<v Speaker 2>even though I studied meditation beginning and it's great practice,

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<v Speaker 2>it's just different. The work that I do is mindfulness

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<v Speaker 2>without meditation, just active noticing. When you're active, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it's very nice people say be in the present, it's

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<v Speaker 2>meaningless because when you're not there, you don't know you're

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<v Speaker 2>not there, so how can you call up the instruction?

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<v Speaker 2>But when you know you don't know, then you naturally

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<v Speaker 2>there to find out. And when you're noticing new things,

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<v Speaker 2>that puts you in the present, which I agree is

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<v Speaker 2>a good place to be. So it's easy to get there,

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<v Speaker 2>but not get there by just deciding I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>be in the present.

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<v Speaker 1>So I guess in the seventies that time was ripe

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<v Speaker 1>for that. But being in an academic environment, especially when

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<v Speaker 1>like Harvard, did you get pushback from this concept?

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<v Speaker 2>Not really. I mean I started studying it at the

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<v Speaker 2>Graduate Center City University of New York when I was

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<v Speaker 2>there for a few years after I got my PhD.

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<v Speaker 2>And at that time it was mindlessness, so there was

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<v Speaker 2>no pushback. When I went up to Harvard, I was

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<v Speaker 2>doing a meditation study and this was massive. I was

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<v Speaker 2>doing it with Skip Alexander when he was alive. He

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<v Speaker 2>brought me into the study, and basically it was the

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<v Speaker 2>they believed that if you have people all over the

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<v Speaker 2>world or meditating, that that would result in peace. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>so meditators over there are going to influence people over

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<v Speaker 2>here to be less aggressive. I said, okay, fine, you

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<v Speaker 2>know I'm in Why not? I was pleased with myself, Fred,

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<v Speaker 2>because this was the first time I was involved in

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<v Speaker 2>something where if it worked, wouldn't you know, give me

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<v Speaker 2>any applause? It was theirs. But what happened was at

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<v Speaker 2>one point, so we're all over the Middle East, and

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<v Speaker 2>a research assistant to a researchers system, to a research

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<v Speaker 2>you know, did something that they shouldn't do. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>remember what it was. It was minor, but that came

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<v Speaker 2>back to me and I said, all right, this is

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<v Speaker 2>is too complicated. I can how can I have control

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<v Speaker 2>over all of this? So I slowly backed out. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>when you ask about pushback, I don't read my own reviews,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I don't look I don't look at my

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<v Speaker 2>own TV shows or podcasts. That way, I can remain

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<v Speaker 2>a legend in my own mind. So there could be

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<v Speaker 2>pushback out there. There probably is.

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<v Speaker 1>But yeah, I'm a legend in my own room and

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<v Speaker 1>a rumor in my own mind. How much of this

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<v Speaker 1>came after the Summer of Love? I mean, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>we're talking mid seventies here, and I remember that time

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<v Speaker 1>and the other peace, love everybody. Then the meditation was

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<v Speaker 1>starting to happen, the people were looking into Buddhism and

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<v Speaker 1>all that. Was there anything about timing of it?

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<v Speaker 2>No, I don't think so, because remember I was studying

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<v Speaker 2>mindlessness and.

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<v Speaker 1>Which was the Summer of Love was?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, well maybe, but it wasn't appreciated that way at

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<v Speaker 2>the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, So what are the components of mindfulness? Again, it

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<v Speaker 1>can be used by golfers.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, it's not a matter of components. Mindfulness

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<v Speaker 2>is the process of noticing, okay, And so you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to notice when you don't know, right and you're in

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<v Speaker 2>a situation, you're naturally going to sit up and take notice.

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<v Speaker 2>And in addition to that, so that's top down. If

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<v Speaker 2>you know you don't know, and how ubiquitous uncertainty is,

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<v Speaker 2>then you naturally tune in when you think you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and then all you need to do is notice three

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<v Speaker 2>or four new things about this thing you think you know,

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<v Speaker 2>and you come to see you didn't know it as

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<v Speaker 2>well as you thought you did, so your attention that

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<v Speaker 2>naturally goes to it. I mean you can do that,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, with your spouse, a friend, Notice three new

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<v Speaker 2>things about them. There's there are always new things, and

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<v Speaker 2>then that's exciting. You know. This act of noticing is

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<v Speaker 2>the essence of enjoyment. It's the essence of engagement. So

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<v Speaker 2>we have a study we ran a long time ago.

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<v Speaker 2>We'd have people doing they'd be listening to classical music,

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<v Speaker 2>listening to loud music, which kind, looking at paintings, watching football,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, all sorts of activities in one of three

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<v Speaker 2>ways that we would tell them, just do it. So

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<v Speaker 2>they just watching the football. These are women who hate football.

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<v Speaker 2>Notice two new things about it, Notice four new things

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<v Speaker 2>about it, Notice six new things. And it turns out

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<v Speaker 2>the more you notice, the more you like the thing

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<v Speaker 2>you're noticing. You know. So anybody can enjoy golf, anybody

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<v Speaker 2>can enjoy anything by just doing this active noticing. And

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<v Speaker 2>too many of us, you know, wait for something to

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<v Speaker 2>grab us rather than actively. But you know, so we

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<v Speaker 2>don't have nuggets of mindfulness or it's all just this

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<v Speaker 2>process of noticing. One of the important ways I think

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<v Speaker 2>that people can be more effective and happy in whatever

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<v Speaker 2>they're doing is to reduce the stress they experience. And

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<v Speaker 2>stress is mindless. And whether you're on the golf course

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<v Speaker 2>or you're at a cocktail party, stress is not doing

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<v Speaker 2>you a good service. So I just say to people quickly,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, just ask yourself, is it a tragedy or

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<v Speaker 2>an inconvenience because almost never, you know, I missed, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>I hit the bowl in the sand. You know, so what,

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<v Speaker 2>it's not a tragedy, and so you recover quickly, more quickly.

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<v Speaker 2>But stress is mindless because stress is the view that

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<v Speaker 2>something terrible is going to something's going to happen, and

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<v Speaker 2>when it happens, it's going to be terrible. Now, it

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<v Speaker 2>turns out that we can't predict what's going to happen.

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<v Speaker 2>So if you just said to yourself, we give yourself

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<v Speaker 2>three reasons why this thing probably won't happen. So you

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<v Speaker 2>went from thinking it's definitely going to happen, you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to miss the shot, you're going to make a fool

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<v Speaker 2>of yourself, you're going to get fired from work, whatever

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<v Speaker 2>it is, three or four reasons why it's not going

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<v Speaker 2>to happen. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But now's

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<v Speaker 2>the fun part. Turn it around, and let's say it

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<v Speaker 2>does happen. How is that actually an advantage? People don't

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<v Speaker 2>realize events themselves are neither good nor bad. It's our

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<v Speaker 2>views of the events that make them good or bad. Now,

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<v Speaker 2>the more mindful you are, the more choices you have

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<v Speaker 2>for how to view situations. And if some of these

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<v Speaker 2>views feel better, clearly those are the ones you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to gravitate too. But when you think X is awful

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<v Speaker 2>and you're about to experience it, you know you're setting

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<v Speaker 2>yourself up. It's interesting. I think it was Mark Twain

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<v Speaker 2>who said, you know, most of the things we worry

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<v Speaker 2>about never happen, which is also true. So if you

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<v Speaker 2>just thought about the last three times you were stressed

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<v Speaker 2>and did the event happen, chances are not. But even

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<v Speaker 2>if it did, then you see you got through it,

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<v Speaker 2>so it all becomes less scary. And so once we're

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<v Speaker 2>not and people in this world, I think, or at

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<v Speaker 2>least in this country, believe that life is stressful. I

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<v Speaker 2>don't think so, you know, I don't think it has

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<v Speaker 2>to be, but certainly everybody if they employ the sorts

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<v Speaker 2>of things that I talk about in The Mindful Body

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<v Speaker 2>can reduce the amount of stress that they're experiencing.

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<v Speaker 1>Amazing, amazing. I definitely need to thank Carl Morris for

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<v Speaker 1>introducing us. This is a remarkable conversation. Your first book

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<v Speaker 1>came out in the eighties, Problems in the seventies.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, no, I wrote a book when I was in

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<v Speaker 2>graduate school. But the book you're referring to is Mindfulness,

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<v Speaker 2>which it came out nearly Yeah, that started the whole game.

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<v Speaker 1>But you are still writing and you're still publishing books.

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<v Speaker 1>Tell me about your latest book, please.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the latest book. I think the title says it all.

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<v Speaker 2>It's called The Mindful Body, Thinking our way to chronic health.

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<v Speaker 2>And what people don't understand, it's not just as we

417
00:26:24.559 --> 00:26:27.960
<v Speaker 2>were just saying. I was just saying that stress is

418
00:26:28.160 --> 00:26:30.920
<v Speaker 2>under our control. We don't have to experience stress. The

419
00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.759
<v Speaker 2>more mindful we are of a less stressful experience. It

420
00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:39.880
<v Speaker 2>turns out, for most of the disorders we experience, there

421
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:44.680
<v Speaker 2>are mindful solutions to it, and our thinking leads to

422
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:49.200
<v Speaker 2>very different health effects than most of us assume. I mean,

423
00:26:49.279 --> 00:26:51.759
<v Speaker 2>and I'm not even suggesting which we have data that

424
00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:54.240
<v Speaker 2>I told you, you make people more mindful, they live longer.

425
00:26:54.559 --> 00:26:57.519
<v Speaker 2>But let me give you an example. So this work.

426
00:26:57.680 --> 00:26:59.480
<v Speaker 2>A lot of the book, but not all of it,

427
00:26:59.559 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 2>for sure, is about mind body unity. You know, I

428
00:27:04.839 --> 00:27:07.640
<v Speaker 2>thought about it. I felt a mind body they're just words.

429
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:09.920
<v Speaker 2>And if you have a mind and a body, then

430
00:27:09.960 --> 00:27:12.000
<v Speaker 2>you have to figure out how do you get from

431
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:15.759
<v Speaker 2>a thought to the body doesn't follow naturally and put

432
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:19.640
<v Speaker 2>them back together, and then it's one thing. Then wherever

433
00:27:19.759 --> 00:27:23.599
<v Speaker 2>you're putting the mind, you're necessarily putting the body. So

434
00:27:23.640 --> 00:27:28.440
<v Speaker 2>we have lots of I think, interesting studies testing this.

435
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:32.559
<v Speaker 2>The first one was the counterclockwise study. So we took

436
00:27:32.640 --> 00:27:36.799
<v Speaker 2>old men and we had them live in a retreat

437
00:27:37.039 --> 00:27:40.680
<v Speaker 2>that we retrofitted to twenty years earlier, and we had

438
00:27:40.680 --> 00:27:43.200
<v Speaker 2>them live there as if they were the younger selves.

439
00:27:43.720 --> 00:27:46.079
<v Speaker 2>So they would be talking about past events as if

440
00:27:46.119 --> 00:27:49.759
<v Speaker 2>they were just unfolding and so on. And in a

441
00:27:49.839 --> 00:27:55.119
<v Speaker 2>week these old men their hearing improved, their vision, their memory,

442
00:27:55.319 --> 00:27:58.680
<v Speaker 2>their strength, and they look noticeably younger. Now in the book,

443
00:27:58.720 --> 00:28:03.200
<v Speaker 2>I have many men these studies. I'm just let's see,

444
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.799
<v Speaker 2>I don't know trying to think of any particularly relevant

445
00:28:06.839 --> 00:28:11.440
<v Speaker 2>to golf. But people can deduce whatever they want. The

446
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:15.880
<v Speaker 2>next study in the series with Ali Crumb was we

447
00:28:15.920 --> 00:28:19.680
<v Speaker 2>took chamber maids and first asked them how much exercise

448
00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:23.200
<v Speaker 2>do you get? Oh, it is relevant to golf, how much?

449
00:28:23.359 --> 00:28:25.920
<v Speaker 2>And they said they don't get any exercise because they

450
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:30.480
<v Speaker 2>thought exercise is what they do after work, because that's

451
00:28:30.519 --> 00:28:33.279
<v Speaker 2>what the surgeon general says, who sits behind a desk

452
00:28:33.319 --> 00:28:36.759
<v Speaker 2>all day. So we simply had them change their minds.

453
00:28:36.839 --> 00:28:40.200
<v Speaker 2>We taught them that work was exercise. That's all, just

454
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:44.279
<v Speaker 2>changing their minds. So working on at the gym making

455
00:28:44.279 --> 00:28:47.000
<v Speaker 2>a bed is like working on this machine at the gym,

456
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:49.799
<v Speaker 2>and so on. So now we have two groups. One

457
00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:53.559
<v Speaker 2>group that realizes they work is exercise, the other group

458
00:28:53.599 --> 00:28:58.039
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't. We find the groups are not eating any differently,

459
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:01.599
<v Speaker 2>they're not working any harder. You know, either group is

460
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:06.359
<v Speaker 2>not spending more effort than the other. However, the group

461
00:29:06.400 --> 00:29:10.759
<v Speaker 2>that now sees their work is exercise lost weight. There

462
00:29:10.839 --> 00:29:13.960
<v Speaker 2>was a change in body mass index, wasted hip ratio,

463
00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:17.960
<v Speaker 2>and their blood pressure came down just by changing their minds.

464
00:29:18.359 --> 00:29:22.039
<v Speaker 2>So if you are a golfer, you know, I think

465
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.480
<v Speaker 2>that you should pay some attention to all the exercise

466
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:29.079
<v Speaker 2>you're getting, rather than assume because you're driving in the

467
00:29:29.160 --> 00:29:32.559
<v Speaker 2>cart there's no exercise. There's still exercises. Can only take

468
00:29:32.599 --> 00:29:37.279
<v Speaker 2>the cart so far, and there may be benefits to that.

469
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:42.359
<v Speaker 2>And another study, we had people in a sleep lab

470
00:29:42.920 --> 00:29:46.680
<v Speaker 2>and they wake up. We have, without them knowing, change

471
00:29:46.720 --> 00:29:49.799
<v Speaker 2>the clock. So one group thinks they got two hours

472
00:29:49.799 --> 00:29:52.680
<v Speaker 2>more sleep than they got, one group thinks they got

473
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:54.960
<v Speaker 2>two hours fewer than they got, and one group the

474
00:29:55.000 --> 00:29:58.119
<v Speaker 2>amount of sleep they got turns out on the measures

475
00:29:58.160 --> 00:30:02.519
<v Speaker 2>we took, biological and cont a function follow perceived amount

476
00:30:02.559 --> 00:30:08.119
<v Speaker 2>of sleep. The last most recent study with Peter Ungle,

477
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.240
<v Speaker 2>we inflict a wound minor wound, but a wound, and

478
00:30:12.559 --> 00:30:14.680
<v Speaker 2>we put people in front of a clock and big

479
00:30:14.680 --> 00:30:18.119
<v Speaker 2>on clocks. I guess and unbeknownst to them the clock

480
00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:21.079
<v Speaker 2>is rigged. So for a third of the people, the

481
00:30:21.160 --> 00:30:24.359
<v Speaker 2>clock is going twice as fast as real time, for

482
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.000
<v Speaker 2>a third of the people, half as fast as real

483
00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:30.200
<v Speaker 2>time for a third of the people real time. Now,

484
00:30:30.240 --> 00:30:33.680
<v Speaker 2>most people would assume that that wound is going to heal.

485
00:30:33.759 --> 00:30:37.200
<v Speaker 2>When that wound heals, what's the difference with the clocks is.

486
00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:41.880
<v Speaker 2>But it turns out that the clock time that your

487
00:30:41.920 --> 00:30:46.039
<v Speaker 2>perceptions of perception of how much time has passed actually

488
00:30:46.119 --> 00:30:50.079
<v Speaker 2>determines healing time. So so many of these sorts of

489
00:30:50.079 --> 00:30:53.720
<v Speaker 2>studies that are fun and suggest the amount of control

490
00:30:53.799 --> 00:30:59.039
<v Speaker 2>we have over our health is enormous. And in addition

491
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.000
<v Speaker 2>to that, we have a part of the book that

492
00:31:01.039 --> 00:31:05.920
<v Speaker 2>deals with chronic illness. And most people, when they are

493
00:31:05.960 --> 00:31:08.960
<v Speaker 2>diagnosed with a chronic illness, assume their symptoms are going

494
00:31:09.000 --> 00:31:12.160
<v Speaker 2>to stay the same or get worse. They assume that

495
00:31:12.279 --> 00:31:16.200
<v Speaker 2>there's nothing they can do about it. They feel helpless. Okay,

496
00:31:16.599 --> 00:31:19.759
<v Speaker 2>so what we do is we have a treatment for

497
00:31:19.880 --> 00:31:24.519
<v Speaker 2>people where basically what you're going to do is we're

498
00:31:24.519 --> 00:31:27.240
<v Speaker 2>going to call you periodically and ask you how is

499
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.960
<v Speaker 2>a symptom now, is it better or worse than the

500
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:34.079
<v Speaker 2>last time? And why several things happen now? The first,

501
00:31:34.519 --> 00:31:38.720
<v Speaker 2>because you're engaged in this, you don't feel helpless. Second,

502
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:44.480
<v Speaker 2>by us asking you to compare how it is now

503
00:31:44.480 --> 00:31:48.880
<v Speaker 2>with before, you're going to recognize that it's not stable

504
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.119
<v Speaker 2>and sometimes you actually feel better, so that then you're going,

505
00:31:52.200 --> 00:31:55.839
<v Speaker 2>in a larger sense, feel better. Third, and most important

506
00:31:56.400 --> 00:31:58.519
<v Speaker 2>is that when we tell you ask you is it

507
00:31:58.559 --> 00:32:03.160
<v Speaker 2>better or worse, we ask you why, and that instigates

508
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:06.640
<v Speaker 2>a mindful searche for why, and mindfulness itself is good

509
00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>for your health. And then, finally, I believe you're more

510
00:32:10.319 --> 00:32:12.839
<v Speaker 2>likely to find a cure if you're looking for it.

511
00:32:12.880 --> 00:32:17.759
<v Speaker 2>So make this simpler. Fred. Let's say you're lets you stress.

512
00:32:17.799 --> 00:32:20.480
<v Speaker 2>Since we talked about it, you think you're always stressed.

513
00:32:20.799 --> 00:32:24.880
<v Speaker 2>Nobody is always anything, okay, because when you're not stressed,

514
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:27.960
<v Speaker 2>you're not thinking about being stressed, okay, and then you're

515
00:32:27.960 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 2>stressed again. So it seems like this is the way

516
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>you willway. So we call you periodically and Fred, how

517
00:32:33.000 --> 00:32:34.920
<v Speaker 2>are you now? Is it better or worse than before?

518
00:32:35.000 --> 00:32:38.400
<v Speaker 2>And why we do this over time? It doesn't have

519
00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:41.960
<v Speaker 2>to be very long, two weeks a week. And then

520
00:32:42.039 --> 00:32:45.319
<v Speaker 2>what we find out is, and you're saying why now

521
00:32:45.359 --> 00:32:48.519
<v Speaker 2>are you stress? You discover you're stressed when you're talking

522
00:32:48.559 --> 00:32:52.519
<v Speaker 2>to Ellen Langer. Well, then the cure is easy, right,

523
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:56.079
<v Speaker 2>stop talking to me or talk to me differently, right.

524
00:32:56.160 --> 00:33:00.160
<v Speaker 2>And this has been phenomenally effective. We've got positive of

525
00:33:00.240 --> 00:33:04.559
<v Speaker 2>results using this attention to symptom variability with people at

526
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:13.400
<v Speaker 2>Parkinson's stroke, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, chronic pain, big things that

527
00:33:13.680 --> 00:33:18.839
<v Speaker 2>were psychologically under their control. And then of course you

528
00:33:19.000 --> 00:33:22.400
<v Speaker 2>have the thought part of this, that our thoughts, because

529
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:26.480
<v Speaker 2>mind and body is won that when we keep ourselves

530
00:33:26.480 --> 00:33:31.400
<v Speaker 2>stress free and we keep ourselves happy, we're healing our bodies.

531
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:37.440
<v Speaker 2>So the book really is about how to tap into

532
00:33:38.039 --> 00:33:40.400
<v Speaker 2>all of the control we have over our health and

533
00:33:40.440 --> 00:33:50.359
<v Speaker 2>well being to which most people are oblivious.

534
00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:55.039
<v Speaker 1>So much to process on this one. I'm just curious

535
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:58.480
<v Speaker 1>if there again, And I hate using the word pushback,

536
00:33:58.519 --> 00:34:01.160
<v Speaker 1>but a lot of what you're talking about seems to

537
00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:05.400
<v Speaker 1>go against Western medicine. That well, not if you're not there,

538
00:34:05.480 --> 00:34:06.799
<v Speaker 1>then you got to take a pill for it.

539
00:34:07.000 --> 00:34:11.440
<v Speaker 2>And you're saying, yeah, now, I think you know. I

540
00:34:11.480 --> 00:34:14.199
<v Speaker 2>gave a talk a few years ago, about five years

541
00:34:14.199 --> 00:34:17.239
<v Speaker 2>ago or so, and there were five thousand people. I

542
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:20.880
<v Speaker 2>thought I was talking to all people who are dealing

543
00:34:20.920 --> 00:34:24.679
<v Speaker 2>with cancer, and only afterwards I found out there were

544
00:34:24.880 --> 00:34:27.559
<v Speaker 2>lots of physicians in the room, and oh my goodness,

545
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.599
<v Speaker 2>because I wasn't paying attention whether I was sounding anti

546
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:33.119
<v Speaker 2>medical or what have you. But I spoke to many

547
00:34:33.159 --> 00:34:36.719
<v Speaker 2>of them afterwards, and you know, they were very supportive

548
00:34:36.880 --> 00:34:40.800
<v Speaker 2>because they know they don't know, and you know, and

549
00:34:40.880 --> 00:34:44.840
<v Speaker 2>these are very smart, well meaning people. I'm not diminishing

550
00:34:46.639 --> 00:34:50.920
<v Speaker 2>the effectiveness of medical intervention. What I'm saying is there's

551
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:53.760
<v Speaker 2>still a great deal we can do for ourselves, and

552
00:34:53.840 --> 00:34:55.960
<v Speaker 2>even at the least, you know, if we go back

553
00:34:56.000 --> 00:34:59.320
<v Speaker 2>to this attention to symptom variability. While you're waiting to

554
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:04.079
<v Speaker 2>find out the results for the biopsy, you know, you're

555
00:35:04.119 --> 00:35:08.079
<v Speaker 2>waiting the three weeks to see the doctor, you certainly

556
00:35:08.079 --> 00:35:10.400
<v Speaker 2>don't have to sit there being stressed. There are things

557
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.400
<v Speaker 2>you can do for yourself. You know. I think that

558
00:35:15.119 --> 00:35:19.519
<v Speaker 2>the medical world, and for many of whom in it,

559
00:35:19.719 --> 00:35:24.519
<v Speaker 2>I have an enormous respect. But I think that on occasion,

560
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:28.320
<v Speaker 2>maybe more of an occasion, not infrequently, they say things

561
00:35:28.360 --> 00:35:31.800
<v Speaker 2>that they shouldn't say. You know, they might tell you

562
00:35:31.960 --> 00:35:34.039
<v Speaker 2>have six months to live. There's no way they can

563
00:35:34.119 --> 00:35:37.320
<v Speaker 2>know this. See. A piece of all of this that

564
00:35:37.760 --> 00:35:41.320
<v Speaker 2>helps people understand the uncertainty that should be part and

565
00:35:41.360 --> 00:35:46.679
<v Speaker 2>parcel of their existence in some sense is science doesn't

566
00:35:46.679 --> 00:35:53.039
<v Speaker 2>give us absolutes. Science gives us probabilities that say, if

567
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.679
<v Speaker 2>we were to study this again in the same way,

568
00:35:56.400 --> 00:36:00.559
<v Speaker 2>we're likely to still get an effect where most people

569
00:36:00.719 --> 00:36:05.480
<v Speaker 2>respond in a particular way, not everybody. Okay, so let

570
00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:08.159
<v Speaker 2>me go back half a step. It was a straight

571
00:36:08.199 --> 00:36:10.800
<v Speaker 2>A student. I was the one. You hate it, okay,

572
00:36:11.719 --> 00:36:13.679
<v Speaker 2>And I was at this horse event and this man

573
00:36:13.760 --> 00:36:16.199
<v Speaker 2>asked me, can I watch his horse because he wants

574
00:36:16.239 --> 00:36:20.480
<v Speaker 2>to get his horse a hot dog. Horses don't eat meat, right,

575
00:36:20.960 --> 00:36:23.360
<v Speaker 2>I say sure. He came back with the hot dog

576
00:36:23.440 --> 00:36:26.800
<v Speaker 2>and the horse ate it. And that's when I realized

577
00:36:26.920 --> 00:36:30.159
<v Speaker 2>everything I thought I know could be wrong. You can't

578
00:36:30.199 --> 00:36:33.559
<v Speaker 2>do an experiment that's going to prove horses don't eat

579
00:36:33.599 --> 00:36:36.519
<v Speaker 2>meat because you're only going to be able to use

580
00:36:36.559 --> 00:36:39.840
<v Speaker 2>so many horses, so much meat mixed with so much

581
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:43.559
<v Speaker 2>grain that can vary, how hungry the horse is, how big.

582
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:46.960
<v Speaker 2>All of this will determine, and so what you end

583
00:36:47.079 --> 00:36:49.920
<v Speaker 2>up getting in such a study is most of the

584
00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:53.400
<v Speaker 2>horses like this being fed in this way don't eat meat.

585
00:36:53.800 --> 00:36:57.119
<v Speaker 2>That's very complicated. So it's just easier to say horses

586
00:36:57.159 --> 00:37:01.320
<v Speaker 2>don't eat meat. It's like one in one is two, Yeah, right, Matt.

587
00:37:01.519 --> 00:37:05.159
<v Speaker 2>What we're taught is an easy way of giving us

588
00:37:05.199 --> 00:37:10.239
<v Speaker 2>science most of the time. But you know, I think

589
00:37:10.280 --> 00:37:12.800
<v Speaker 2>that we would be better off if we were told

590
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:17.880
<v Speaker 2>most horses don't eat meat, or it seems that horses

591
00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:20.239
<v Speaker 2>don't eat me, or one in one could be two

592
00:37:21.000 --> 00:37:23.159
<v Speaker 2>rather than is. As soon as we have the is,

593
00:37:23.800 --> 00:37:26.760
<v Speaker 2>we mindlessly accept it as true. We don't pay any

594
00:37:26.760 --> 00:37:30.079
<v Speaker 2>attention to the times that it's not true.

595
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:33.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, it confirms the story for me of when the

596
00:37:34.039 --> 00:37:35.960
<v Speaker 1>time I was at a ballgame with my friend and

597
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:37.719
<v Speaker 1>I said, I'm gonna go get something to you. Do

598
00:37:37.719 --> 00:37:39.440
<v Speaker 1>you want anything? Goes yeah, get me a hot dog.

599
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:42.000
<v Speaker 1>And I said, wait, I thought you were a vegetarian.

600
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:46.199
<v Speaker 1>He goes, there's no meat and hot dogs.

601
00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:46.599
<v Speaker 2>It's good.

602
00:37:48.000 --> 00:37:50.480
<v Speaker 1>Let's go back to off the course, on the course

603
00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:51.880
<v Speaker 1>and what we can do.

604
00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:56.440
<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, it should be reasonably clear from all we've

605
00:37:56.480 --> 00:38:01.239
<v Speaker 2>said so far. Off the course, if you exploit the

606
00:38:01.320 --> 00:38:07.159
<v Speaker 2>power and uncertainty, if you are noticing, if you don't

607
00:38:07.280 --> 00:38:11.559
<v Speaker 2>take single answers as the only way to answer whatever

608
00:38:11.639 --> 00:38:15.800
<v Speaker 2>the question is, if you deal with all your you

609
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:21.039
<v Speaker 2>don't allow yourself to become stressed because you're aware, then

610
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:24.840
<v Speaker 2>stne cause stress. Yourself are causing the stress by the

611
00:38:24.920 --> 00:38:28.960
<v Speaker 2>view you're taking. You do all of this, then when

612
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:35.119
<v Speaker 2>you're you know, on the knife hole, you're as good

613
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:39.320
<v Speaker 2>as you can possibly be at that time. And if you,

614
00:38:39.400 --> 00:38:43.760
<v Speaker 2>in being mindful now are also paying attention to how

615
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:46.960
<v Speaker 2>you feel. The example I gave before, you're you know,

616
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:49.679
<v Speaker 2>you didn't sleep that well, so your shoulder hurts a little,

617
00:38:49.719 --> 00:38:54.360
<v Speaker 2>so you change the way you're standing slightly. You make

618
00:38:54.400 --> 00:38:57.599
<v Speaker 2>adjustments to take advantage of who you are right at

619
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:02.599
<v Speaker 2>this moment. So off the course is basically too. You know,

620
00:39:02.599 --> 00:39:06.599
<v Speaker 2>if one reads the mindful body, they'll have a good

621
00:39:06.639 --> 00:39:10.239
<v Speaker 2>sense of how to become more mindful off the course.

622
00:39:10.639 --> 00:39:14.000
<v Speaker 2>And then you're on the course and the mindfulness is

623
00:39:14.000 --> 00:39:17.679
<v Speaker 2>the same, but the things you're mindful of very slightly.

624
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:21.039
<v Speaker 2>You know, off the course you're not paying attention to

625
00:39:21.679 --> 00:39:25.320
<v Speaker 2>the wind, you know, unless you're asking yourself should you

626
00:39:25.360 --> 00:39:29.000
<v Speaker 2>put on a heavier sweater or jacket. But on the

627
00:39:29.000 --> 00:39:32.960
<v Speaker 2>course you want to be actively noticing things about the

628
00:39:33.039 --> 00:39:36.519
<v Speaker 2>course itself, things about your body itself, ways that you

629
00:39:36.519 --> 00:39:40.199
<v Speaker 2>could vary the way you hold the club. You know,

630
00:39:40.280 --> 00:39:45.320
<v Speaker 2>the five iron was good the last time, but now

631
00:39:45.360 --> 00:39:47.880
<v Speaker 2>the seven iron might be a better choice for you

632
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:51.440
<v Speaker 2>because of whatever things have changed. So, you know, we

633
00:39:51.519 --> 00:39:56.119
<v Speaker 2>want to understand that we should be guided by our

634
00:39:56.280 --> 00:40:00.119
<v Speaker 2>rules and routines the way we've done things before, but

635
00:40:00.199 --> 00:40:04.840
<v Speaker 2>they shouldn't govern how we do things, because right now

636
00:40:05.000 --> 00:40:08.880
<v Speaker 2>is different from yesterday and we'll be different again tomorrow.

637
00:40:10.320 --> 00:40:12.800
<v Speaker 1>And to me, there is no history in golf. The

638
00:40:12.840 --> 00:40:15.719
<v Speaker 1>next shot has nothing to do with what your history

639
00:40:15.760 --> 00:40:16.760
<v Speaker 1>is on the on the course.

640
00:40:17.880 --> 00:40:21.599
<v Speaker 2>It should be that way, but typically not right, yeah,

641
00:40:21.639 --> 00:40:23.719
<v Speaker 2>because it takes a lot for people that you're in

642
00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>the sand, you know, and how do you get out

643
00:40:26.440 --> 00:40:28.320
<v Speaker 2>of that? Why'd you get yourself into that?

644
00:40:28.920 --> 00:40:31.039
<v Speaker 1>Or I never hit that, I can never get out

645
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:31.719
<v Speaker 1>of the sand yet.

646
00:40:31.800 --> 00:40:36.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, but to also recognize, you know, I mean

647
00:40:36.239 --> 00:40:39.480
<v Speaker 2>you're in the sand. Is this a tragedy? Are inconvenience?

648
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:43.760
<v Speaker 2>You know? It'd be great to be able to get

649
00:40:43.800 --> 00:40:46.320
<v Speaker 2>out of the sand more easily. The only way you

650
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:48.280
<v Speaker 2>can get out of the sand more easily is if

651
00:40:48.280 --> 00:40:51.599
<v Speaker 2>you get in the sand on occasion, you know, So

652
00:40:51.719 --> 00:40:55.360
<v Speaker 2>there are opportunities to improve. Oh yeah. The main thing

653
00:40:55.519 --> 00:40:58.519
<v Speaker 2>is that this act of noticing is what makes it fun.

654
00:40:59.239 --> 00:41:03.159
<v Speaker 2>And even if you were a professional golfer. Look, I'm

655
00:41:03.199 --> 00:41:08.599
<v Speaker 2>a professional psychologist and I still do my psychology mindfully.

656
00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:12.440
<v Speaker 2>I enjoy it and if you're not enjoying it, then

657
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:18.840
<v Speaker 2>you're being mindless. So and if you're enjoying it, then

658
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:23.000
<v Speaker 2>the outcome will typically be better. But even if not,

659
00:41:23.719 --> 00:41:27.239
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter that much, you know, so to do

660
00:41:27.360 --> 00:41:31.119
<v Speaker 2>it tense and follow all those rules that you mindlessly

661
00:41:31.639 --> 00:41:37.400
<v Speaker 2>learned and then screw up. God, it's terrible. But if

662
00:41:37.400 --> 00:41:41.559
<v Speaker 2>you're enjoying yourself and you screw up, at least you

663
00:41:41.599 --> 00:41:43.760
<v Speaker 2>had a good day.

664
00:41:43.960 --> 00:41:46.039
<v Speaker 1>And I've always felt like when I walk up to

665
00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:49.360
<v Speaker 1>if this ball goes in the sand, when I walk

666
00:41:49.440 --> 00:41:51.320
<v Speaker 1>up to it with the attitude of oh I love

667
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:54.760
<v Speaker 1>this shot, yeah so much, it's always I always seem

668
00:41:54.800 --> 00:41:55.880
<v Speaker 1>to have a better result.

669
00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:58.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, I think that people, you know, should pay

670
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.400
<v Speaker 2>attention to what we said. Where if you did get

671
00:42:01.400 --> 00:42:05.199
<v Speaker 2>that hole in one every time you swung the club,

672
00:42:05.280 --> 00:42:08.199
<v Speaker 2>there'd be no game there. So that needs that the

673
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.840
<v Speaker 2>shots that are harder provide an opportunity to learn something

674
00:42:13.800 --> 00:42:17.000
<v Speaker 2>and also to test yourself. I mean, it's important for

675
00:42:17.119 --> 00:42:20.000
<v Speaker 2>people to come to learn that they should take what

676
00:42:20.079 --> 00:42:25.280
<v Speaker 2>they do seriously, but not take themselves so seriously. And

677
00:42:25.320 --> 00:42:28.559
<v Speaker 2>you have these duffers who hit a bad shot and

678
00:42:28.599 --> 00:42:32.159
<v Speaker 2>then they're destroyed by it. Why, I mean, it's kind

679
00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:35.159
<v Speaker 2>of crazy. Why expect perfection.

680
00:42:35.840 --> 00:42:40.480
<v Speaker 1>Right, because it doesn't exist, especially in golf and everywhere else, right,

681
00:42:40.800 --> 00:42:43.559
<v Speaker 1>perfection does not exist. Well, again. The new book is

682
00:42:43.559 --> 00:42:46.920
<v Speaker 1>called The Mindful Body by doctor Ellen Langer. And this

683
00:42:47.079 --> 00:42:51.880
<v Speaker 1>has been so enlightening and so worthy of golf content.

684
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:56.440
<v Speaker 1>Whether you believe it or not, I firmly do and

685
00:42:56.480 --> 00:42:59.360
<v Speaker 1>I just think this was phenomenal. I appreciate your.

686
00:42:59.239 --> 00:43:01.519
<v Speaker 2>Time so much. Thank you, Fred, it was fun.

687
00:43:04.679 --> 00:43:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Happy New Year. I hope you're doing well this winter,

688
00:43:07.800 --> 00:43:10.480
<v Speaker 1>staying warm and healthy. It's been a few weeks since

689
00:43:10.480 --> 00:43:13.800
<v Speaker 1>I've spoken to you, and i'd love your feedback on

690
00:43:13.920 --> 00:43:17.000
<v Speaker 1>whether you prefer these little updates or would rather I

691
00:43:17.440 --> 00:43:20.960
<v Speaker 1>just end the episode after the interview. Now. The reason

692
00:43:21.000 --> 00:43:25.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm checking in today and I'll probably do that occasionally,

693
00:43:26.079 --> 00:43:30.159
<v Speaker 1>it's because I'm very proud to announce that Golfsmarter dot

694
00:43:30.199 --> 00:43:34.360
<v Speaker 1>com has been completely rebuilt and is ready for your visit.

695
00:43:34.800 --> 00:43:37.800
<v Speaker 1>It's pretty intuitive how to navigate the site, but there

696
00:43:37.840 --> 00:43:41.639
<v Speaker 1>are a couple of new elements that hopefully make receiving

697
00:43:41.719 --> 00:43:45.880
<v Speaker 1>a free gift, engaging with me and the podcast much

698
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:49.880
<v Speaker 1>much easier. When you go to golfsmarter dot com, the

699
00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:53.639
<v Speaker 1>first thing you'll notice is that everything is focused on

700
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:59.119
<v Speaker 1>our podcast episodes, new conversations each Tuesday and replay from

701
00:43:59.119 --> 00:44:03.000
<v Speaker 1>our archives every Friday. That doesn't change. You can listen

702
00:44:03.039 --> 00:44:05.760
<v Speaker 1>to the latest or search for a specific topic or

703
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:08.880
<v Speaker 1>guest right from the site on any device you'd like.

704
00:44:09.519 --> 00:44:13.599
<v Speaker 1>We also provide a generous selection of platforms and apps

705
00:44:13.639 --> 00:44:17.920
<v Speaker 1>suggesting where you can listen, subscribe, and follow us. But

706
00:44:17.960 --> 00:44:20.800
<v Speaker 1>there are a couple unique features that I want to

707
00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:24.039
<v Speaker 1>make sure you're aware of. Of course, we still have

708
00:44:24.159 --> 00:44:27.800
<v Speaker 1>a page dedicated to Tony Manzoni that includes many links

709
00:44:27.800 --> 00:44:32.400
<v Speaker 1>to articles, his book and video and again, by popular demand,

710
00:44:32.440 --> 00:44:34.800
<v Speaker 1>as we do each year since he passed away in

711
00:44:34.840 --> 00:44:39.159
<v Speaker 1>twenty eighteen, we'll replay all the episodes we did featuring

712
00:44:39.199 --> 00:44:43.840
<v Speaker 1>Tony each Friday starting March seventh of this year. So

713
00:44:43.920 --> 00:44:47.679
<v Speaker 1>here are the new elements that I'm so excited about. First,

714
00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:51.519
<v Speaker 1>if you'd like to leave a review or rate the show,

715
00:44:51.880 --> 00:44:55.639
<v Speaker 1>that can all be done without leaving our site. When

716
00:44:55.679 --> 00:44:58.119
<v Speaker 1>you rate the show, your comments will go either to

717
00:44:58.280 --> 00:45:02.639
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it's your choice. Next, if you'd

718
00:45:02.719 --> 00:45:05.480
<v Speaker 1>like to be a Golf Smarter Ambassador and receive three

719
00:45:05.599 --> 00:45:09.760
<v Speaker 1>free gifts for recording an episode opening like Dennis did

720
00:45:09.840 --> 00:45:13.199
<v Speaker 1>from Melbourne, Australia at the beginning of this episode. Now,

721
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:15.760
<v Speaker 1>there's a little tab on the right side of the

722
00:45:15.760 --> 00:45:19.719
<v Speaker 1>page that's set on every page that says record your

723
00:45:19.800 --> 00:45:24.400
<v Speaker 1>show open here. Once you click it, it'll provide you

724
00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:28.119
<v Speaker 1>with a simple script on exactly what to say. Hi,

725
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:31.599
<v Speaker 1>my name is I'm from and I play at my

726
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:35.119
<v Speaker 1>favorite course. This is golf smarter. It's all you need

727
00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:38.079
<v Speaker 1>to say, and you can record it on your computer,

728
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:42.880
<v Speaker 1>your tablet, or your phone, and your phone will probably

729
00:45:42.960 --> 00:45:46.679
<v Speaker 1>sound the best. Now, it's not recording a telephone signal.

730
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.679
<v Speaker 1>It's recording a really clean, nice audible signal that we'll

731
00:45:50.719 --> 00:45:54.440
<v Speaker 1>get to hear. None not requiring that people say what

732
00:45:54.639 --> 00:45:55.639
<v Speaker 1>episode number it is?

733
00:45:55.679 --> 00:45:56.159
<v Speaker 2>Anymore?

734
00:45:56.320 --> 00:46:01.000
<v Speaker 1>Got too complicated and I'll just fill it. I'll put

735
00:46:01.039 --> 00:46:04.199
<v Speaker 1>that in. Don't worry about that. Next. If you're a

736
00:46:04.199 --> 00:46:08.360
<v Speaker 1>golf instructor, a golf entrepreneur, or maybe have a golf

737
00:46:08.400 --> 00:46:11.360
<v Speaker 1>specific topic or story that you'd like to share with

738
00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:15.280
<v Speaker 1>our global audience of golf nerds, just click on be

739
00:46:15.440 --> 00:46:20.119
<v Speaker 1>a featured guest and fill out the form. Lastly, and hopefully,

740
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:22.920
<v Speaker 1>the main reason you'll check out our new site immediately

741
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:25.719
<v Speaker 1>is that we're now requesting that you fill out a

742
00:46:25.880 --> 00:46:30.679
<v Speaker 1>short survey. More than anything, this will let me know

743
00:46:30.840 --> 00:46:34.440
<v Speaker 1>who you are, what you think about the show and

744
00:46:34.599 --> 00:46:38.159
<v Speaker 1>what you'd like to learn more of or even less

745
00:46:38.199 --> 00:46:41.920
<v Speaker 1>of from our featured guests. And once you fill it out,

746
00:46:42.039 --> 00:46:45.559
<v Speaker 1>you're going to receive a free link to Tony Manzoni's video.

747
00:46:46.079 --> 00:46:49.760
<v Speaker 1>And of course, if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions,

748
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:54.320
<v Speaker 1>just click on the Heyfread button on the allnew Golfsmarter

749
00:46:54.519 --> 00:46:55.760
<v Speaker 1>dot com