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Speaker 1: Stay tuned to the end of the episode for an

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important update. This is Dennis for no in Australia.

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Speaker 2: I'll play at Long Island Golf Club here in Melbourne

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and welcome to golf sad not eight one. I think

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another way to understand mindfulness, especially with respect to sports,

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is a soft openness. You don't want to be focused

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tightly on any particular thing because then you're oblivious to

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everything else around it. So let me give a different

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sport as an example. I'm on horseback and I'm racing

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through the woods. If I say to myself, watch out

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for the branches so I don't get knocked off the horse.

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So I'm vigilant. I'm focusing on those branches. Now as

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I ride through the woods, I may stumble over a

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boulder because I was not paying attention to anything but

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the branches. So mindfulness is different from vigilance. When you're vigilant,

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you have a particular stimulus in mind. When you're mindful,

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you're just there.

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Speaker 1: A mindful golfer needs a mindful body, as explained by

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the mother of mindfulness, doctor Ellen Langer.

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Speaker 2: This is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights from

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great Golf minds to help you lower your score and

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raise your golf IQ. Here's your host, Fred Green.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Golf Smarter podcast.

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Speaker 2: Ellen, Hi, Fred, thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: It's great to have you on the show. You know,

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Golf Smarter clearly now that we're in our twentieth year

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of doing this podcast, the intention always was about mindfulness

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in golf, and you know, I've always felt that if

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you understand strategy and you understand how to control your

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emotions on the golf course, you can be a better

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player than just working on your swing mechanics. And a

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lot of golf instructors have agreed with that. And as

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someone who's more of a student than an instructor, I'm

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not an instructor. I'm here to learn from everybody. I'm

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really excited to have you on the show today.

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: So your work in mindfulness goes back decades and I'm

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just curious how it ended up with.

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Speaker 2: Golf because people like you have called me. You know

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that you can do anything you're doing playing golf, eating

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a sandwich, doing a podcast mindfully or mindlessly, and the

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consequences of doing it mindfully as opposed to mindlessly are enormous.

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And so it's relevant to virtually everything. There are things

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about golf, you know. I use it as an example

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when I'm teaching often because when students or anybody doesn't

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successfully complete whatever they're trying to do, they often become frustrated.

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And so I raise the simple question of if you

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got a hole in one every time you swung the club,

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would that be fun? And just think about it for

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a second, people would realize, well, there's no game anymore.

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So that when you recognize you can either do things

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perfectly mindfully mindlessly or imperfectly mindlessly, I think then you

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go a little easier on yourself. It's also you know

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that I've done a lot of some writing and a

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lot of talking about all sorts of sports, not just golf.

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And the thing that people don't realize is there are

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two general aspects to what you need to do. One

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is off the course, the other is on the course.

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You know, so that if you didn't sleep well, if

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you had a fight with your spouse, all of those

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things are going to clearly affect your golf. And learning

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what mindfulness is all about will help you enormously off

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the court, and then of course, and then on the course,

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there are particular things one should be doing. You know,

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with any sport, people tend to think they should do

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it over and over and over again until they can

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do it perfectly and make it second nature. And whenever

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you hear yourself saying anything about second nature, recognize that

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means you're being mindless. And so I was on this

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television show decades ago with Tiger Wood's father, and so

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when he was asked how did Tiger Woods get so

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good that his father's practice practice practice, And then I

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get on, I say, well, you know, practice often makes imperfect,

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not perfect. If you're practicing to achieve the end of

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not having to think about what you're doing, you're going

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to lock yourself in and not be as good as

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you can be. If when you practice, your intention is

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each time to notice subtle difference is in what you're doing,

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the outcome and so on, then the practice will help.

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But sadly, when most of us are taught sports instruments

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had to study for a test, you know that what

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people think they should do is repeat it, repeat it,

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repeat it as is so that they don't have to

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think about it. And also, you know, why would you

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want to do anything if you don't show up for it.

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I gave a talk the other day. Then something occurred

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to me that after doing this for so long, it

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would surprise me that it took so long for me

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to come to this. But it was a talk on happiness,

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and what I realized was that can robots be happy?

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And of course not well when we're being mindless. We're

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no different from robots. So the answer to improved game,

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the answer to improved health and increased happiness is to

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be mindful. Now you should, now, Fred, ask me the question,

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so what do you mean by mindfulness?

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Speaker 1: Actually I just wrote that down.

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Speaker 2: Okay, that was my next question. When people think of

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mindfulness too often, they just think of meditation, and meditation

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is not mindfulness. Meditation is a practice you undergo in

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order to result in post meditative mindfulness. Mindfulness as we

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study it is very different. It's not a practice. Essentially,

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it's a way of being that follows almost directly from

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the realization that uncertainty is the rule, not the exception.

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Everything is always changing, Everything looks different from different perspectives,

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So you can't know now. Parents, teachers, golf instructors tend

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to speak in absolutes. Hold the club this way, do X,

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Y or Z, and that's fine in certain circumstances, but

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not in others. So one of the things the way

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I try to bring this home to people is the

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one thing I think everybody thinks they know is how

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much is one plus one? So Fred, how much is

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one plus one two? No, not always. If you add

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one pile of laundry plus one pile of laundry, one

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plus one is one. You add one cloud plus one

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cloud one plus one is one. The other day, somebody

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sent me something where if you have one pizza and

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you add one pizza, you have two pizzas. However, if

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you have one lasagna and you add one lasagna, one

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plus one is one. It's just a bigger lasagna. Now

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beyond me that when you add one plus one to

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get two, you're using a base ten number system. If

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you were using a base two number now you don't

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really have to understand anything deep about this, But if

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you're using a base two number system, one plus one

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would be written as ten. And what I'm fond of

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saying now is the next time somebody asks you how

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much is one plus one, you're going to know it depends.

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And now you have choices. When you're mindful, you have choices.

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When you're mindless, you don't. Again, you're responding more like

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a rather robot. So you know you could say one, ten, two,

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and probably other things as well. All right, So what

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I found over decades now, forty five years of research,

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sadly is that virtually all of us are mindless almost

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all the time. We're not there. But when you're not there,

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you're not there to know you're not there. But it's

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clear to me that this is sadly true, and the

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way to be there is very simple. So let's say

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you are going to visit me at my house right now.

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I'm in Dartmouth, mass You'd walk in, you wouldn't have

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to practice anything. You've never been here before, so you

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would notice things, right. You might notice a painting and

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wonder if I did it in some books, see some

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things that seem strange to you, say, you would be

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being mindful, right, So when you're mindful, you're actively noticing

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new things. Now when you think you know, So when

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I asked you how much was one plus one? You

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didn't do anything but just mindlessly answer to And now,

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knowing that things change, you take a little more time

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with it, only a few seconds more, and have a

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choice in what you're doing. So all of his research

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has shown me that by increasing our mindfulness, which means

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essentially becoming more and more aware that we just don't know,

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we don't have to feel bad about not knowing. Nobody

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knows because things are always changing. That when we increase

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this act of noticing, the neurons are firing, and it's

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literally and figuratively enlivening very early research, we make elderly

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people more mindfully, live longer. Everything is better. You know.

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We have people performing symphonies, whether they're mindless or mindful,

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record the piece, play it back for people who know

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nothing about the study. Everybody, not everybody, but over ninety

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percent of the people prefer the mindfully played piece. But

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I'll go back to what I said to you before,

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which is, if you're gonna be there, show up for it.

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And especially when we're talking about a sport that you're

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doing basically as recreation. You know, I don't think either

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of us right now we're speaking to the tiger woods

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of the world, and so if you're not going to

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play golf mindfully, why be there? Now?

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna be careful. Every time you ask me a question,

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you already nailed me twice. So on the golf course,

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when we're talking about mindfulness and being aware.

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Speaker 2: Of what, well several things. So when you hold that

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golf club, if you hold it exactly the way you

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did the last time, you're not taking advantage of the

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way your body has changed. You know, so that let's

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say you slept a little funny in your right shoulder

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hurts a tiny bit, but you're aware of it, then

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you should change the way you're standing, the way you're swinging,

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and so on. If you've played the course many times before,

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you may attempt to play it the same way you

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had the last you know, the last few times, but

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now you're different. The weather is different, the course is

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different because they're you know, even if they've just mowed

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it the last time you played it probably wasn't exactly

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the same. So you want to be present and notice

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these subtle differences. I think that you know, and then

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the game will of course be more fun. And when

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you hit that golf ball and it's not a perfect shot,

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so what you know that if it were perfect again

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each time, there'd be no game. There a way I

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explained this to people also. So remember you were a

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little kid and you get in an elevator and you

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try to press that button, you can't reach it, and

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then a parent or some adult picks you up and

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you press the button, and then the next time you're

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a little old that you still can. Eventually you're in

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the elevator, you press the button and you can reach it.

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That's the end, right, When was the last time you

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were excited about pressing a button in an elevator? All right?

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So you know, that's another example of how we should

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not be so frustrated with imperfection. And when you miss

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a shot, there's more in a stroke. There's more information

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there than if you hit it correctly. You know you

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hit it correctly, you don't know where You're just lucky

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that were you were aware of why you did what

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you did. But if you screw up in some way,

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there's lots to pay attention to, and that when you've

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screwed up and you're now going to try to improve

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the next stroke, you can't be sure why you screwed up,

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but it doesn't matter. You can still make corrections. So

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I'm not really a golfer I'm a tennis player, and

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so I hit the ball, and let's say that it's

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not a good it was a fine performance. Now, if

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I say to myself, remember to bend your legs, even

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if that bad stroke had nothing to do with whether

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or not my legs were ben I'm still going to

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set myself up to be better. And it's the same

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for all sports.

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Speaker 1: Sure. Sure, And you kind of dropped the word in

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there in the last part of our conversation where you

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said intention and where does that fall?

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Speaker 2: Okay, Well, that's interesting. You know that when I say

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be there for the event. You know, when you're mindful,

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you are doing everything intentionally. You know, when you're a robot,

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the past is determining what your present performance is going

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to be. But I think you know, and I think

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another way to understand mindfulness, especially with respect to sports,

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is a soft openness. You know that you don't want

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to be focused tightly on any particular thing because then

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you're oblivious to everything else around it. So let me

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give a different sport as an example. I'm on horseback

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and I'm racing through the woods. If I say to myself,

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watch out for the branch, the branches you know, so

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I don't get knocked off the horse. So I'm vigilant.

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I'm focusing on those branches. Now as I ride through

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the woods, I may stumble over a boulder because I

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was not paying attention to anything but the branches. So

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my fullness is different from vigilance. When you're vigilant, you

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have a particular stimulus in mind. When you're mindful, you're

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just you know there in some sense.

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Speaker 1: You've been doing this work for so many years, for decades.

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Speaker 2: Since I was five, since five.

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Speaker 1: It's actually when I started the podcast when I was fine,

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and you've earned the name of the Mother of Mindfulness,

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meaning I'm inferring that you were the first one to

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start talking about mindfulness.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty much. What brought you to that point, Well,

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it's a funny story. Actually when I before I moved

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up to Cambridge to teach at Harvard, this was in

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its nineteen seventy seven, I had the stereotype that everybody

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in Cambridge was super smart if they were all at Harvard,

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and as if everybody at Harvard was smart. And I

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was coming from New York, where lots of people are

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street smart, and I would notice things that in New York,

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they just never happen. You know, how could these smart

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people do these things? So this was a time where

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banks closed at three o'clock and there were no cash machines. Okay,

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so here you have parking at the bank. Now at

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three o'clock, the bank isn't open, so it's okay to

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park there. In New York at three zho one, the

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spaces would be gone, but in Cambridge they were just open.

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I mean, it was, you know, silly things of this

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sort that said to me, this was something that was

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different from intelligence. And as I'm fond of saying, my

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first work in all this was studying mindlessness. And then somebody,

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and I keep trying to remember who it was, but

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I can I don't remember, said you know you are

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what you study, You're something mean of that sort. So

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then I said, okay, and I turned it around and

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started studying mindfulness. And it was at that time that

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I became more aware of Buddhism and the Eastern use

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of the term. And it was actually very exciting that

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through this Western scientific perspective I was coming to many

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of the same conclusions as the Eastern work would suggest.

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But again, most of that is based on meditation. And

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even though I studied meditation beginning and it's great practice,

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it's just different. The work that I do is mindfulness

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without meditation, just active noticing. When you're active, you know,

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it's very nice people say be in the present, it's

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meaningless because when you're not there, you don't know you're

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not there, so how can you call up the instruction?

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But when you know you don't know, then you naturally

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there to find out. And when you're noticing new things,

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that puts you in the present, which I agree is

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a good place to be. So it's easy to get there,

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but not get there by just deciding I'm going to

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be in the present.

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Speaker 1: So I guess in the seventies that time was ripe

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for that. But being in an academic environment, especially when

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like Harvard, did you get pushback from this concept?

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Speaker 2: Not really. I mean I started studying it at the

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Graduate Center City University of New York when I was

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there for a few years after I got my PhD.

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And at that time it was mindlessness, so there was

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no pushback. When I went up to Harvard, I was

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doing a meditation study and this was massive. I was

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doing it with Skip Alexander when he was alive. He

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brought me into the study, and basically it was the

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they believed that if you have people all over the

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world or meditating, that that would result in peace. You know,

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so meditators over there are going to influence people over

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here to be less aggressive. I said, okay, fine, you

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know I'm in Why not? I was pleased with myself, Fred,

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because this was the first time I was involved in

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something where if it worked, wouldn't you know, give me

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any applause? It was theirs. But what happened was at

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one point, so we're all over the Middle East, and

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a research assistant to a researchers system, to a research

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you know, did something that they shouldn't do. I don't

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remember what it was. It was minor, but that came

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back to me and I said, all right, this is

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is too complicated. I can how can I have control

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over all of this? So I slowly backed out. You know,

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when you ask about pushback, I don't read my own reviews,

315
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you know, I don't look I don't look at my

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own TV shows or podcasts. That way, I can remain

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a legend in my own mind. So there could be

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pushback out there. There probably is.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm a legend in my own room and

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a rumor in my own mind. How much of this

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came after the Summer of Love? I mean, you know,

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we're talking mid seventies here, and I remember that time

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and the other peace, love everybody. Then the meditation was

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starting to happen, the people were looking into Buddhism and

325
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all that. Was there anything about timing of it?

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Speaker 2: No, I don't think so, because remember I was studying

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mindlessness and.

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Speaker 1: Which was the Summer of Love was?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe, but it wasn't appreciated that way at

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the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So what are the components of mindfulness? Again, it

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can be used by golfers.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, it's not a matter of components. Mindfulness

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is the process of noticing, okay, And so you're going

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to notice when you don't know, right and you're in

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a situation, you're naturally going to sit up and take notice.

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And in addition to that, so that's top down. If

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you know you don't know, and how ubiquitous uncertainty is,

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then you naturally tune in when you think you know,

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and then all you need to do is notice three

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or four new things about this thing you think you know,

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and you come to see you didn't know it as

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well as you thought you did, so your attention that

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naturally goes to it. I mean you can do that,

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you know, with your spouse, a friend, Notice three new

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things about them. There's there are always new things, and

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then that's exciting. You know. This act of noticing is

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the essence of enjoyment. It's the essence of engagement. So

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we have a study we ran a long time ago.

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We'd have people doing they'd be listening to classical music,

351
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listening to loud music, which kind, looking at paintings, watching football,

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you know, all sorts of activities in one of three

353
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ways that we would tell them, just do it. So

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they just watching the football. These are women who hate football.

355
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Notice two new things about it, Notice four new things

356
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about it, Notice six new things. And it turns out

357
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the more you notice, the more you like the thing

358
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you're noticing. You know. So anybody can enjoy golf, anybody

359
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can enjoy anything by just doing this active noticing. And

360
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too many of us, you know, wait for something to

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grab us rather than actively. But you know, so we

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don't have nuggets of mindfulness or it's all just this

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process of noticing. One of the important ways I think

364
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that people can be more effective and happy in whatever

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they're doing is to reduce the stress they experience. And

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stress is mindless. And whether you're on the golf course

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or you're at a cocktail party, stress is not doing

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you a good service. So I just say to people quickly,

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you know, just ask yourself, is it a tragedy or

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an inconvenience because almost never, you know, I missed, you know,

371
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I hit the bowl in the sand. You know, so what,

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it's not a tragedy, and so you recover quickly, more quickly.

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But stress is mindless because stress is the view that

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something terrible is going to something's going to happen, and

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when it happens, it's going to be terrible. Now, it

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turns out that we can't predict what's going to happen.

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So if you just said to yourself, we give yourself

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three reasons why this thing probably won't happen. So you

379
00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:13,079
went from thinking it's definitely going to happen, you're going

380
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to miss the shot, you're going to make a fool

381
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of yourself, you're going to get fired from work, whatever

382
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it is, three or four reasons why it's not going

383
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to happen. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. But now's

384
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the fun part. Turn it around, and let's say it

385
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does happen. How is that actually an advantage? People don't

386
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,119
realize events themselves are neither good nor bad. It's our

387
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views of the events that make them good or bad. Now,

388
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the more mindful you are, the more choices you have

389
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for how to view situations. And if some of these

390
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views feel better, clearly those are the ones you're going

391
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to gravitate too. But when you think X is awful

392
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and you're about to experience it, you know you're setting

393
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yourself up. It's interesting. I think it was Mark Twain

394
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:04,119
who said, you know, most of the things we worry

395
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about never happen, which is also true. So if you

396
00:25:07,759 --> 00:25:10,519
just thought about the last three times you were stressed

397
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and did the event happen, chances are not. But even

398
00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:16,039
if it did, then you see you got through it,

399
00:25:16,519 --> 00:25:20,200
so it all becomes less scary. And so once we're

400
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not and people in this world, I think, or at

401
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:28,039
least in this country, believe that life is stressful. I

402
00:25:28,079 --> 00:25:30,759
don't think so, you know, I don't think it has

403
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:34,519
to be, but certainly everybody if they employ the sorts

404
00:25:34,559 --> 00:25:36,799
of things that I talk about in The Mindful Body

405
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,440
can reduce the amount of stress that they're experiencing.

406
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Speaker 1: Amazing, amazing. I definitely need to thank Carl Morris for

407
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:52,359
introducing us. This is a remarkable conversation. Your first book

408
00:25:52,799 --> 00:25:57,160
came out in the eighties, Problems in the seventies.

409
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Speaker 2: Well, no, I wrote a book when I was in

410
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graduate school. But the book you're referring to is Mindfulness,

411
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:07,240
which it came out nearly Yeah, that started the whole game.

412
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: But you are still writing and you're still publishing books.

413
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:13,279
Tell me about your latest book, please.

414
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Speaker 2: Well, the latest book. I think the title says it all.

415
00:26:16,480 --> 00:26:20,599
It's called The Mindful Body, Thinking our way to chronic health.

416
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:24,519
And what people don't understand, it's not just as we

417
00:26:24,559 --> 00:26:27,960
were just saying. I was just saying that stress is

418
00:26:28,160 --> 00:26:30,920
under our control. We don't have to experience stress. The

419
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,759
more mindful we are of a less stressful experience. It

420
00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:39,880
turns out, for most of the disorders we experience, there

421
00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,680
are mindful solutions to it, and our thinking leads to

422
00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:49,200
very different health effects than most of us assume. I mean,

423
00:26:49,279 --> 00:26:51,759
and I'm not even suggesting which we have data that

424
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,240
I told you, you make people more mindful, they live longer.

425
00:26:54,559 --> 00:26:57,519
But let me give you an example. So this work.

426
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,480
A lot of the book, but not all of it,

427
00:26:59,559 --> 00:27:04,640
for sure, is about mind body unity. You know, I

428
00:27:04,839 --> 00:27:07,640
thought about it. I felt a mind body they're just words.

429
00:27:08,079 --> 00:27:09,920
And if you have a mind and a body, then

430
00:27:09,960 --> 00:27:12,000
you have to figure out how do you get from

431
00:27:12,319 --> 00:27:15,759
a thought to the body doesn't follow naturally and put

432
00:27:15,759 --> 00:27:19,640
them back together, and then it's one thing. Then wherever

433
00:27:19,759 --> 00:27:23,599
you're putting the mind, you're necessarily putting the body. So

434
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,440
we have lots of I think, interesting studies testing this.

435
00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,559
The first one was the counterclockwise study. So we took

436
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,799
old men and we had them live in a retreat

437
00:27:37,039 --> 00:27:40,680
that we retrofitted to twenty years earlier, and we had

438
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:43,200
them live there as if they were the younger selves.

439
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:46,079
So they would be talking about past events as if

440
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:49,759
they were just unfolding and so on. And in a

441
00:27:49,839 --> 00:27:55,119
week these old men their hearing improved, their vision, their memory,

442
00:27:55,319 --> 00:27:58,680
their strength, and they look noticeably younger. Now in the book,

443
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:03,200
I have many men these studies. I'm just let's see,

444
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:06,799
I don't know trying to think of any particularly relevant

445
00:28:06,839 --> 00:28:11,440
to golf. But people can deduce whatever they want. The

446
00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:15,880
next study in the series with Ali Crumb was we

447
00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,680
took chamber maids and first asked them how much exercise

448
00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,200
do you get? Oh, it is relevant to golf, how much?

449
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,920
And they said they don't get any exercise because they

450
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,480
thought exercise is what they do after work, because that's

451
00:28:30,519 --> 00:28:33,279
what the surgeon general says, who sits behind a desk

452
00:28:33,319 --> 00:28:36,759
all day. So we simply had them change their minds.

453
00:28:36,839 --> 00:28:40,200
We taught them that work was exercise. That's all, just

454
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,279
changing their minds. So working on at the gym making

455
00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:47,000
a bed is like working on this machine at the gym,

456
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,799
and so on. So now we have two groups. One

457
00:28:49,799 --> 00:28:53,559
group that realizes they work is exercise, the other group

458
00:28:53,599 --> 00:28:58,039
that doesn't. We find the groups are not eating any differently,

459
00:28:58,559 --> 00:29:01,599
they're not working any harder. You know, either group is

460
00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:06,359
not spending more effort than the other. However, the group

461
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:10,759
that now sees their work is exercise lost weight. There

462
00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:13,960
was a change in body mass index, wasted hip ratio,

463
00:29:14,599 --> 00:29:17,960
and their blood pressure came down just by changing their minds.

464
00:29:18,359 --> 00:29:22,039
So if you are a golfer, you know, I think

465
00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:25,480
that you should pay some attention to all the exercise

466
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:29,079
you're getting, rather than assume because you're driving in the

467
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,559
cart there's no exercise. There's still exercises. Can only take

468
00:29:32,599 --> 00:29:37,279
the cart so far, and there may be benefits to that.

469
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,359
And another study, we had people in a sleep lab

470
00:29:42,920 --> 00:29:46,680
and they wake up. We have, without them knowing, change

471
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,799
the clock. So one group thinks they got two hours

472
00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:52,680
more sleep than they got, one group thinks they got

473
00:29:52,680 --> 00:29:54,960
two hours fewer than they got, and one group the

474
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:58,119
amount of sleep they got turns out on the measures

475
00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:02,519
we took, biological and cont a function follow perceived amount

476
00:30:02,559 --> 00:30:08,119
of sleep. The last most recent study with Peter Ungle,

477
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,240
we inflict a wound minor wound, but a wound, and

478
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:14,680
we put people in front of a clock and big

479
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:18,119
on clocks. I guess and unbeknownst to them the clock

480
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:21,079
is rigged. So for a third of the people, the

481
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,359
clock is going twice as fast as real time, for

482
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:27,000
a third of the people, half as fast as real

483
00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:30,200
time for a third of the people real time. Now,

484
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,680
most people would assume that that wound is going to heal.

485
00:30:33,759 --> 00:30:37,200
When that wound heals, what's the difference with the clocks is.

486
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,880
But it turns out that the clock time that your

487
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:46,039
perceptions of perception of how much time has passed actually

488
00:30:46,119 --> 00:30:50,079
determines healing time. So so many of these sorts of

489
00:30:50,079 --> 00:30:53,720
studies that are fun and suggest the amount of control

490
00:30:53,799 --> 00:30:59,039
we have over our health is enormous. And in addition

491
00:30:59,119 --> 00:31:01,000
to that, we have a part of the book that

492
00:31:01,039 --> 00:31:05,920
deals with chronic illness. And most people, when they are

493
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,960
diagnosed with a chronic illness, assume their symptoms are going

494
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:12,160
to stay the same or get worse. They assume that

495
00:31:12,279 --> 00:31:16,200
there's nothing they can do about it. They feel helpless. Okay,

496
00:31:16,599 --> 00:31:19,759
so what we do is we have a treatment for

497
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,519
people where basically what you're going to do is we're

498
00:31:24,519 --> 00:31:27,240
going to call you periodically and ask you how is

499
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:29,960
a symptom now, is it better or worse than the

500
00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:34,079
last time? And why several things happen now? The first,

501
00:31:34,519 --> 00:31:38,720
because you're engaged in this, you don't feel helpless. Second,

502
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:44,480
by us asking you to compare how it is now

503
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:48,880
with before, you're going to recognize that it's not stable

504
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:52,119
and sometimes you actually feel better, so that then you're going,

505
00:31:52,200 --> 00:31:55,839
in a larger sense, feel better. Third, and most important

506
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,519
is that when we tell you ask you is it

507
00:31:58,559 --> 00:32:03,160
better or worse, we ask you why, and that instigates

508
00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:06,640
a mindful searche for why, and mindfulness itself is good

509
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:10,200
for your health. And then, finally, I believe you're more

510
00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:12,839
likely to find a cure if you're looking for it.

511
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,759
So make this simpler. Fred. Let's say you're lets you stress.

512
00:32:17,799 --> 00:32:20,480
Since we talked about it, you think you're always stressed.

513
00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:24,880
Nobody is always anything, okay, because when you're not stressed,

514
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,960
you're not thinking about being stressed, okay, and then you're

515
00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:30,799
stressed again. So it seems like this is the way

516
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:32,960
you willway. So we call you periodically and Fred, how

517
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:34,920
are you now? Is it better or worse than before?

518
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,400
And why we do this over time? It doesn't have

519
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,960
to be very long, two weeks a week. And then

520
00:32:42,039 --> 00:32:45,319
what we find out is, and you're saying why now

521
00:32:45,359 --> 00:32:48,519
are you stress? You discover you're stressed when you're talking

522
00:32:48,559 --> 00:32:52,519
to Ellen Langer. Well, then the cure is easy, right,

523
00:32:52,559 --> 00:32:56,079
stop talking to me or talk to me differently, right.

524
00:32:56,160 --> 00:33:00,160
And this has been phenomenally effective. We've got positive of

525
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:04,559
results using this attention to symptom variability with people at

526
00:33:04,599 --> 00:33:13,400
Parkinson's stroke, multiple sclerosis, arthritis, chronic pain, big things that

527
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,839
were psychologically under their control. And then of course you

528
00:33:19,000 --> 00:33:22,400
have the thought part of this, that our thoughts, because

529
00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,480
mind and body is won that when we keep ourselves

530
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,400
stress free and we keep ourselves happy, we're healing our bodies.

531
00:33:32,319 --> 00:33:37,440
So the book really is about how to tap into

532
00:33:38,039 --> 00:33:40,400
all of the control we have over our health and

533
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:50,359
well being to which most people are oblivious.

534
00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:55,039
Speaker 1: So much to process on this one. I'm just curious

535
00:33:55,559 --> 00:33:58,480
if there again, And I hate using the word pushback,

536
00:33:58,519 --> 00:34:01,160
but a lot of what you're talking about seems to

537
00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:05,400
go against Western medicine. That well, not if you're not there,

538
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:06,799
then you got to take a pill for it.

539
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 2: And you're saying, yeah, now, I think you know. I

540
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,199
gave a talk a few years ago, about five years

541
00:34:14,199 --> 00:34:17,239
ago or so, and there were five thousand people. I

542
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:20,880
thought I was talking to all people who are dealing

543
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:24,679
with cancer, and only afterwards I found out there were

544
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:27,559
lots of physicians in the room, and oh my goodness,

545
00:34:27,559 --> 00:34:30,599
because I wasn't paying attention whether I was sounding anti

546
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,119
medical or what have you. But I spoke to many

547
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:36,719
of them afterwards, and you know, they were very supportive

548
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:40,800
because they know they don't know, and you know, and

549
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:44,840
these are very smart, well meaning people. I'm not diminishing

550
00:34:46,639 --> 00:34:50,920
the effectiveness of medical intervention. What I'm saying is there's

551
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,760
still a great deal we can do for ourselves, and

552
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:55,960
even at the least, you know, if we go back

553
00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,320
to this attention to symptom variability. While you're waiting to

554
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:04,079
find out the results for the biopsy, you know, you're

555
00:35:04,119 --> 00:35:08,079
waiting the three weeks to see the doctor, you certainly

556
00:35:08,079 --> 00:35:10,400
don't have to sit there being stressed. There are things

557
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:14,400
you can do for yourself. You know. I think that

558
00:35:15,119 --> 00:35:19,519
the medical world, and for many of whom in it,

559
00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:24,519
I have an enormous respect. But I think that on occasion,

560
00:35:24,639 --> 00:35:28,320
maybe more of an occasion, not infrequently, they say things

561
00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:31,800
that they shouldn't say. You know, they might tell you

562
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:34,039
have six months to live. There's no way they can

563
00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:37,320
know this. See. A piece of all of this that

564
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,320
helps people understand the uncertainty that should be part and

565
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:46,679
parcel of their existence in some sense is science doesn't

566
00:35:46,679 --> 00:35:53,039
give us absolutes. Science gives us probabilities that say, if

567
00:35:53,039 --> 00:35:55,679
we were to study this again in the same way,

568
00:35:56,400 --> 00:36:00,559
we're likely to still get an effect where most people

569
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:05,480
respond in a particular way, not everybody. Okay, so let

570
00:36:05,519 --> 00:36:08,159
me go back half a step. It was a straight

571
00:36:08,199 --> 00:36:10,800
A student. I was the one. You hate it, okay,

572
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:13,679
And I was at this horse event and this man

573
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,199
asked me, can I watch his horse because he wants

574
00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:20,480
to get his horse a hot dog. Horses don't eat meat, right,

575
00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,360
I say sure. He came back with the hot dog

576
00:36:23,440 --> 00:36:26,800
and the horse ate it. And that's when I realized

577
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,159
everything I thought I know could be wrong. You can't

578
00:36:30,199 --> 00:36:33,559
do an experiment that's going to prove horses don't eat

579
00:36:33,599 --> 00:36:36,519
meat because you're only going to be able to use

580
00:36:36,559 --> 00:36:39,840
so many horses, so much meat mixed with so much

581
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,559
grain that can vary, how hungry the horse is, how big.

582
00:36:44,039 --> 00:36:46,960
All of this will determine, and so what you end

583
00:36:47,079 --> 00:36:49,920
up getting in such a study is most of the

584
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,400
horses like this being fed in this way don't eat meat.

585
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:57,119
That's very complicated. So it's just easier to say horses

586
00:36:57,159 --> 00:37:01,320
don't eat meat. It's like one in one is two, Yeah, right, Matt.

587
00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:05,159
What we're taught is an easy way of giving us

588
00:37:05,199 --> 00:37:10,239
science most of the time. But you know, I think

589
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:12,800
that we would be better off if we were told

590
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,880
most horses don't eat meat, or it seems that horses

591
00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,239
don't eat me, or one in one could be two

592
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,159
rather than is. As soon as we have the is,

593
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,760
we mindlessly accept it as true. We don't pay any

594
00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:30,079
attention to the times that it's not true.

595
00:37:31,599 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 1: Well, it confirms the story for me of when the

596
00:37:34,039 --> 00:37:35,960
time I was at a ballgame with my friend and

597
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:37,719
I said, I'm gonna go get something to you. Do

598
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:39,440
you want anything? Goes yeah, get me a hot dog.

599
00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:42,000
And I said, wait, I thought you were a vegetarian.

600
00:37:42,039 --> 00:37:46,199
He goes, there's no meat and hot dogs.

601
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:46,599
Speaker 2: It's good.

602
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 1: Let's go back to off the course, on the course

603
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:51,880
and what we can do.

604
00:37:52,519 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 2: Okay, well, it should be reasonably clear from all we've

605
00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:01,239
said so far. Off the course, if you exploit the

606
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:07,159
power and uncertainty, if you are noticing, if you don't

607
00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:11,559
take single answers as the only way to answer whatever

608
00:38:11,639 --> 00:38:15,800
the question is, if you deal with all your you

609
00:38:16,360 --> 00:38:21,039
don't allow yourself to become stressed because you're aware, then

610
00:38:21,119 --> 00:38:24,840
stne cause stress. Yourself are causing the stress by the

611
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,960
view you're taking. You do all of this, then when

612
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:35,119
you're you know, on the knife hole, you're as good

613
00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:39,320
as you can possibly be at that time. And if you,

614
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,760
in being mindful now are also paying attention to how

615
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,960
you feel. The example I gave before, you're you know,

616
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:49,679
you didn't sleep that well, so your shoulder hurts a little,

617
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:54,360
so you change the way you're standing slightly. You make

618
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:57,599
adjustments to take advantage of who you are right at

619
00:38:57,599 --> 00:39:02,599
this moment. So off the course is basically too. You know,

620
00:39:02,599 --> 00:39:06,599
if one reads the mindful body, they'll have a good

621
00:39:06,639 --> 00:39:10,239
sense of how to become more mindful off the course.

622
00:39:10,639 --> 00:39:14,000
And then you're on the course and the mindfulness is

623
00:39:14,000 --> 00:39:17,679
the same, but the things you're mindful of very slightly.

624
00:39:18,159 --> 00:39:21,039
You know, off the course you're not paying attention to

625
00:39:21,679 --> 00:39:25,320
the wind, you know, unless you're asking yourself should you

626
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:29,000
put on a heavier sweater or jacket. But on the

627
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,960
course you want to be actively noticing things about the

628
00:39:33,039 --> 00:39:36,519
course itself, things about your body itself, ways that you

629
00:39:36,519 --> 00:39:40,199
could vary the way you hold the club. You know,

630
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:45,320
the five iron was good the last time, but now

631
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,880
the seven iron might be a better choice for you

632
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,440
because of whatever things have changed. So, you know, we

633
00:39:51,519 --> 00:39:56,119
want to understand that we should be guided by our

634
00:39:56,280 --> 00:40:00,119
rules and routines the way we've done things before, but

635
00:40:00,199 --> 00:40:04,840
they shouldn't govern how we do things, because right now

636
00:40:05,000 --> 00:40:08,880
is different from yesterday and we'll be different again tomorrow.

637
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,800
Speaker 1: And to me, there is no history in golf. The

638
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,719
next shot has nothing to do with what your history

639
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:16,760
is on the on the course.

640
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,599
Speaker 2: It should be that way, but typically not right, yeah,

641
00:40:21,639 --> 00:40:23,719
because it takes a lot for people that you're in

642
00:40:23,800 --> 00:40:26,400
the sand, you know, and how do you get out

643
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,320
of that? Why'd you get yourself into that?

644
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,039
Speaker 1: Or I never hit that, I can never get out

645
00:40:31,039 --> 00:40:31,719
of the sand yet.

646
00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:36,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but to also recognize, you know, I mean

647
00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:39,480
you're in the sand. Is this a tragedy? Are inconvenience?

648
00:40:39,679 --> 00:40:43,760
You know? It'd be great to be able to get

649
00:40:43,800 --> 00:40:46,320
out of the sand more easily. The only way you

650
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:48,280
can get out of the sand more easily is if

651
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,599
you get in the sand on occasion, you know, So

652
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,360
there are opportunities to improve. Oh yeah. The main thing

653
00:40:55,519 --> 00:40:58,519
is that this act of noticing is what makes it fun.

654
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:03,159
And even if you were a professional golfer. Look, I'm

655
00:41:03,199 --> 00:41:08,599
a professional psychologist and I still do my psychology mindfully.

656
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,440
I enjoy it and if you're not enjoying it, then

657
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:18,840
you're being mindless. So and if you're enjoying it, then

658
00:41:18,880 --> 00:41:23,000
the outcome will typically be better. But even if not,

659
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,239
it doesn't matter that much, you know, so to do

660
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,119
it tense and follow all those rules that you mindlessly

661
00:41:31,639 --> 00:41:37,400
learned and then screw up. God, it's terrible. But if

662
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:41,559
you're enjoying yourself and you screw up, at least you

663
00:41:41,599 --> 00:41:43,760
had a good day.

664
00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:46,039
Speaker 1: And I've always felt like when I walk up to

665
00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:49,360
if this ball goes in the sand, when I walk

666
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,320
up to it with the attitude of oh I love

667
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:54,760
this shot, yeah so much, it's always I always seem

668
00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:55,880
to have a better result.

669
00:41:56,119 --> 00:41:58,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, I think that people, you know, should pay

670
00:41:58,679 --> 00:42:01,400
attention to what we said. Where if you did get

671
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:05,199
that hole in one every time you swung the club,

672
00:42:05,280 --> 00:42:08,199
there'd be no game there. So that needs that the

673
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,840
shots that are harder provide an opportunity to learn something

674
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:17,000
and also to test yourself. I mean, it's important for

675
00:42:17,119 --> 00:42:20,000
people to come to learn that they should take what

676
00:42:20,079 --> 00:42:25,280
they do seriously, but not take themselves so seriously. And

677
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,559
you have these duffers who hit a bad shot and

678
00:42:28,599 --> 00:42:32,159
then they're destroyed by it. Why, I mean, it's kind

679
00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:35,159
of crazy. Why expect perfection.

680
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: Right, because it doesn't exist, especially in golf and everywhere else, right,

681
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:43,559
perfection does not exist. Well, again. The new book is

682
00:42:43,559 --> 00:42:46,920
called The Mindful Body by doctor Ellen Langer. And this

683
00:42:47,079 --> 00:42:51,880
has been so enlightening and so worthy of golf content.

684
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:56,440
Whether you believe it or not, I firmly do and

685
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,360
I just think this was phenomenal. I appreciate your.

686
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:01,519
Speaker 2: Time so much. Thank you, Fred, it was fun.

687
00:43:04,679 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: Happy New Year. I hope you're doing well this winter,

688
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,480
staying warm and healthy. It's been a few weeks since

689
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,800
I've spoken to you, and i'd love your feedback on

690
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:17,000
whether you prefer these little updates or would rather I

691
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:20,960
just end the episode after the interview. Now. The reason

692
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,840
I'm checking in today and I'll probably do that occasionally,

693
00:43:26,079 --> 00:43:30,159
it's because I'm very proud to announce that Golfsmarter dot

694
00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:34,360
com has been completely rebuilt and is ready for your visit.

695
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,800
It's pretty intuitive how to navigate the site, but there

696
00:43:37,840 --> 00:43:41,639
are a couple of new elements that hopefully make receiving

697
00:43:41,719 --> 00:43:45,880
a free gift, engaging with me and the podcast much

698
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:49,880
much easier. When you go to golfsmarter dot com, the

699
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:53,639
first thing you'll notice is that everything is focused on

700
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:59,119
our podcast episodes, new conversations each Tuesday and replay from

701
00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:03,000
our archives every Friday. That doesn't change. You can listen

702
00:44:03,039 --> 00:44:05,760
to the latest or search for a specific topic or

703
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:08,880
guest right from the site on any device you'd like.

704
00:44:09,519 --> 00:44:13,599
We also provide a generous selection of platforms and apps

705
00:44:13,639 --> 00:44:17,920
suggesting where you can listen, subscribe, and follow us. But

706
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,800
there are a couple unique features that I want to

707
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:24,039
make sure you're aware of. Of course, we still have

708
00:44:24,159 --> 00:44:27,800
a page dedicated to Tony Manzoni that includes many links

709
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:32,400
to articles, his book and video and again, by popular demand,

710
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:34,800
as we do each year since he passed away in

711
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,159
twenty eighteen, we'll replay all the episodes we did featuring

712
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Tony each Friday starting March seventh of this year. So

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here are the new elements that I'm so excited about. First,

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if you'd like to leave a review or rate the show,

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that can all be done without leaving our site. When

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00:44:55,679 --> 00:44:58,119
you rate the show, your comments will go either to

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00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:02,639
Apple Podcasts or Spotify, it's your choice. Next, if you'd

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00:45:02,719 --> 00:45:05,480
like to be a Golf Smarter Ambassador and receive three

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free gifts for recording an episode opening like Dennis did

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from Melbourne, Australia at the beginning of this episode. Now,

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there's a little tab on the right side of the

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page that's set on every page that says record your

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show open here. Once you click it, it'll provide you

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with a simple script on exactly what to say. Hi,

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00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,599
my name is I'm from and I play at my

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00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:35,119
favorite course. This is golf smarter. It's all you need

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00:45:35,159 --> 00:45:38,079
to say, and you can record it on your computer,

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00:45:38,639 --> 00:45:42,880
your tablet, or your phone, and your phone will probably

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00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,679
sound the best. Now, it's not recording a telephone signal.

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It's recording a really clean, nice audible signal that we'll

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get to hear. None not requiring that people say what

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episode number it is?

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Speaker 2: Anymore?

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Speaker 1: Got too complicated and I'll just fill it. I'll put

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00:46:01,039 --> 00:46:04,199
that in. Don't worry about that. Next. If you're a

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golf instructor, a golf entrepreneur, or maybe have a golf

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00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,360
specific topic or story that you'd like to share with

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our global audience of golf nerds, just click on be

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00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:20,119
a featured guest and fill out the form. Lastly, and hopefully,

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00:46:20,199 --> 00:46:22,920
the main reason you'll check out our new site immediately

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is that we're now requesting that you fill out a

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00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:30,679
short survey. More than anything, this will let me know

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00:46:30,840 --> 00:46:34,440
who you are, what you think about the show and

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00:46:34,599 --> 00:46:38,159
what you'd like to learn more of or even less

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00:46:38,199 --> 00:46:41,920
of from our featured guests. And once you fill it out,

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you're going to receive a free link to Tony Manzoni's video.

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00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:49,760
And of course, if you have any questions, comments, or suggestions,

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just click on the Heyfread button on the allnew Golfsmarter

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dot com