WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:07.559 Welcome back to React Roundup. 2 00:00:07.719 --> 00:00:10.080 It's a panelist show today where we're going to talk 3 00:00:10.080 --> 00:00:13.599 about is working at a large or small company better 4 00:00:14.039 --> 00:00:17.480 for your career? With me today is TJ Van Told 5 00:00:17.800 --> 00:00:22.320 everybody and Page meeting House. Hey everyone, all right, I'm 6 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:24.559 going to start off with saying where I worked and 7 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.920 why you guys kind of fill in what you have 8 00:00:27.120 --> 00:00:29.039 done so that we can kind of give us some background. 9 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:33.079 So I currently work at a seed stage startup, which 10 00:00:33.479 --> 00:00:35.399 means that we haven't yet gotte our Series A or 11 00:00:35.439 --> 00:00:38.960 Series B or serious funding. So it's very small. There's 12 00:00:38.960 --> 00:00:41.719 about seven people in it, and it's a productivity startup 13 00:00:42.079 --> 00:00:45.719 called Centered App, and we do kind of a flow 14 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:49.000 type system so to get you into the flow productivity. 15 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:50.039 So it's pretty cool stuff. 16 00:00:50.240 --> 00:00:54.039 And before that, I was working at Nike and Walmart, 17 00:00:54.079 --> 00:00:57.159 So I've kind of done both the small company and 18 00:00:57.240 --> 00:00:58.560 big company thing just recently. 19 00:00:58.719 --> 00:01:00.719 Yeah, and I can go back to this is is TJ. 20 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:04.519 And I've sort of ran all stages of this as well. 21 00:01:04.599 --> 00:01:07.480 So I started off in big insurance fortune five hundred 22 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:11.439 insurance company is big stuff. From there, I worked for 23 00:01:11.599 --> 00:01:14.359 a hosting company, liquid Web that was sort of I 24 00:01:14.400 --> 00:01:18.120 guess like medium size, so that was like three four 25 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.560 hundred people when I was working there. Then I went 26 00:01:20.599 --> 00:01:24.959 to work for Progress, which is a fairly large company 27 00:01:25.319 --> 00:01:28.719 as well, and then currently I work with Paige at 28 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:32.560 Blues Wireless and we are a startup of twenty some people. 29 00:01:32.680 --> 00:01:36.200 So I've got experience from sort of both large and 30 00:01:36.239 --> 00:01:37.480 small and somewhere in between. 31 00:01:37.840 --> 00:01:41.400 And I have a similar set of experience, but it's 32 00:01:41.439 --> 00:01:43.799 not all in web development, which is a little bit 33 00:01:43.959 --> 00:01:46.560 unique because I'm only I've been in web development now 34 00:01:46.599 --> 00:01:50.040 for about five years. My first web job was with 35 00:01:50.200 --> 00:01:55.280 home Depot, so the largest of large enterprise companies, and now, 36 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.439 as TJ mentioned, we are at the smallest of the 37 00:01:58.480 --> 00:02:01.560 small startups with twenty I think we had our twenty 38 00:02:01.680 --> 00:02:05.319 fourth or twenty fifth employee just joined recently. But prior 39 00:02:05.359 --> 00:02:08.759 to that, for about five years, I worked in various 40 00:02:08.800 --> 00:02:12.680 marketing agencies, and I worked for medium sized ones of 41 00:02:12.719 --> 00:02:17.560 a few hundred people. One was acquired and became part 42 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:21.919 of a giant publicist marketing group, and then I went 43 00:02:22.000 --> 00:02:25.000 to a startup of about forty forty people when I 44 00:02:25.080 --> 00:02:29.599 was there, So everything from very large to very small 45 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:33.840 and back again, and all of them have definite benefits 46 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.800 and definite drawbacks, And it just depends, I guess what 47 00:02:37.840 --> 00:02:41.919 you're looking for or what you place more value on 48 00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:45.719 as to which ones you might be happier with, and 49 00:02:45.800 --> 00:02:48.400 of course what stage of your career you're in too. 50 00:02:48.599 --> 00:02:51.800 If you're just starting out, maybe a startup where you 51 00:02:51.840 --> 00:02:54.599 get to touch everything is really exciting to you, or 52 00:02:55.159 --> 00:02:57.680 it's terrifying because you don't know what you're doing and 53 00:02:57.719 --> 00:03:01.360 what other developers and people to kind of mentor and 54 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:04.159 help guide you. So that's a kind of probably a 55 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:07.360 good place to get started, is what benefits are there 56 00:03:07.479 --> 00:03:10.800 or what pros and cons to the various sizes and 57 00:03:10.879 --> 00:03:12.360 stages of companies. 58 00:03:13.560 --> 00:03:16.319 Yeah, I definitely think there's a huge advantage in kind 59 00:03:16.360 --> 00:03:19.360 of a work life balance in the larger companies that 60 00:03:19.439 --> 00:03:23.199 I've seen. If you are in the middle level, midway 61 00:03:23.199 --> 00:03:26.639 through your career, or maybe you're looking to spend more 62 00:03:26.680 --> 00:03:29.039 time with working on a family, I think a big 63 00:03:29.039 --> 00:03:31.879 company is probably a better choice. You know, usually you 64 00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:36.000 have larger teams and a little bit longer schedules so 65 00:03:36.039 --> 00:03:39.080 that you can kind of predict more and be like, oh, Okay, 66 00:03:39.080 --> 00:03:42.080 I'm actually going to take a vacation this year ooh exciting. 67 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.159 Whereas the seed stage startup, you know, you don't really 68 00:03:47.199 --> 00:03:50.479 have an idea kind of almost day to day sometimes 69 00:03:50.479 --> 00:03:51.919 what you're going to be working on or what the 70 00:03:51.960 --> 00:03:54.039 intensity level is going to be, so there can be 71 00:03:54.080 --> 00:03:55.800 a lot more challenging in terms of that. 72 00:03:56.280 --> 00:03:59.840 Yeah, big companies in general are far more predictable. There's 73 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:05.000 there's more. There's more just process behind everything, which can 74 00:04:05.039 --> 00:04:07.479 be interpreted as both a good or a bad thing. 75 00:04:07.680 --> 00:04:10.319 Like to bring Jack's example up, like for the vacation thing. 76 00:04:10.560 --> 00:04:13.919 Oftentimes it can be a good thing because there's very 77 00:04:14.159 --> 00:04:17.759 little that would be totally unexpected. Nothing's going to like 78 00:04:17.879 --> 00:04:21.120 throw you off and suddenly make you Chances are like 79 00:04:21.240 --> 00:04:24.279 lose some time out of the blue. Things are far 80 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.199 more structured that way. But at the same time, you 81 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.160 could also view that as a negative because sometimes all 82 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:32.800 that process can get in your way when you're trying 83 00:04:32.839 --> 00:04:34.319 to do something. I know all of us could tell 84 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:38.560 stories of like absurd things that happen at large companies 85 00:04:38.680 --> 00:04:42.639 that stop you from accomplishing very trivial things, whereas in 86 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.879 small companies chances are at least there are always degrees 87 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:48.959 of this, but siances are you have a little bit 88 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:53.480 more freedom to do what you think is best accomplished, 89 00:04:53.480 --> 00:04:55.720 what you think needs to get accomplished, with less getting 90 00:04:55.720 --> 00:04:58.639 in your way. But again just to the constant thing 91 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:01.680 of trade offs, because that does make you more responsible 92 00:05:01.720 --> 00:05:04.319 for things. There's less of a crutch for you to 93 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.000 fall back on if you can't get something done. You 94 00:05:07.079 --> 00:05:09.360 might have to do something that you don't want to do, 95 00:05:09.480 --> 00:05:11.240 but there's no one else to do it at a 96 00:05:11.240 --> 00:05:14.639 small company, so there's it's tricky. 97 00:05:15.319 --> 00:05:15.879 Yeah. 98 00:05:16.120 --> 00:05:20.000 One thing that I appreciated coming out of my boot camp, 99 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:21.920 because I went to a coding boot camp for four 100 00:05:22.120 --> 00:05:26.600 months and then transitioned into web development, was I wanted 101 00:05:26.600 --> 00:05:30.759 to go to a medium or larger sized company because 102 00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:34.879 I wanted other developers around me who were better than 103 00:05:35.199 --> 00:05:38.000 me and more skilled and more knowledgeable and all those 104 00:05:38.040 --> 00:05:41.120 things that I could learn from. Because if boot camp 105 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:43.319 taught me one thing, it was that there was so 106 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:47.000 much to learn that I just didn't know. It was 107 00:05:47.040 --> 00:05:50.839 how much more there was after this kind of initial 108 00:05:50.959 --> 00:05:54.959 crash course that I had gotten. So being able to 109 00:05:55.000 --> 00:05:58.519 go to a company the size of home Depot, for instance, 110 00:05:58.720 --> 00:06:01.839 was fantastic because suddenly I was on a team of 111 00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:07.000 eight plus other developers from staff level all the way 112 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:11.240 down to software engineering level, and everything in between, people 113 00:06:11.319 --> 00:06:14.199 who'd done it for decades, people who'd done it for 114 00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:18.079 a few years, people who had computer science degrees, people 115 00:06:18.160 --> 00:06:22.439 who didn't, and having all of that around me to 116 00:06:22.839 --> 00:06:25.560 learn from, and being part of a team where we 117 00:06:25.560 --> 00:06:30.439 were responsible from everything full stack, our back end services, 118 00:06:30.519 --> 00:06:35.279 our front end services, our build pipeline, doing testing, doing 119 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:42.920 code quality scans, setting up our GitHub repos and maintaining 120 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:45.279 those and making sure that they were up to standards. 121 00:06:45.360 --> 00:06:49.279 All of that stuff was fantastic because I got to 122 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:54.519 touch and learn about all these different things. But it 123 00:06:54.560 --> 00:06:57.319 was also very structured, like you say in that this 124 00:06:57.519 --> 00:07:01.639 was our project, this was our lane, this was what 125 00:07:01.680 --> 00:07:04.319 we were responsible for. And then if you needed something 126 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.279 done anywhere else, you had to talk to another team, 127 00:07:08.519 --> 00:07:10.560 or you had to submit a form, or you had 128 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:13.839 to fill out X, Y and Z pieces of red 129 00:07:13.879 --> 00:07:18.600 tape to get it done. And sometimes it was great 130 00:07:18.680 --> 00:07:21.319 because we could just something would come to us and 131 00:07:21.360 --> 00:07:23.879 we could say we're not responsible for that, go talk 132 00:07:23.920 --> 00:07:27.639 to this other team. Or stuff would come to us 133 00:07:27.759 --> 00:07:30.680 and we would be either responsible for it or we'd 134 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:32.959 have to figure it out, or it would be very painful, 135 00:07:33.000 --> 00:07:35.839 like you say, to get it done what should have 136 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.480 been trivial if somebody had had the level of clearance 137 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.839 that was required to make what seemed like a small change. 138 00:07:44.160 --> 00:07:47.240 So a lot of benefits to it, especially early in 139 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:49.560 your career, because you can just go tap someone on 140 00:07:49.560 --> 00:07:51.360 the shoulder and say, hey, can you look at this 141 00:07:51.480 --> 00:07:53.839 code with me or help me figure out what this 142 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:56.160 is doing or how to do it. But at the 143 00:07:56.199 --> 00:08:02.040 same time, a lot of processes and potentially a lot 144 00:08:02.079 --> 00:08:05.519 of time in between things getting done shouldn't really take 145 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:10.040 that long if you knew if you were a smaller company, I. 146 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:14.000 Guess, yeah, that's funny because that's similar to how I 147 00:08:14.040 --> 00:08:17.079 got my start with big insurance. It's just like a 148 00:08:17.199 --> 00:08:19.000 junior developer role. 149 00:08:19.240 --> 00:08:20.439 And I think. 150 00:08:20.279 --> 00:08:23.480 Another advantage of that is these larger companies they're more 151 00:08:23.560 --> 00:08:27.439 likely to have like established training procedures and like the 152 00:08:27.480 --> 00:08:30.240 budgets to do that sort of thing, whereas your small startup, 153 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:31.879 you know, they don't have the money to throw around 154 00:08:31.959 --> 00:08:34.440 or the time to do that sort of thing. But 155 00:08:34.519 --> 00:08:37.519 a larger company can have a whole training department that 156 00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:39.720 at least the insurance company I worked for did. They 157 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:41.799 had people that that was their job was to train 158 00:08:42.440 --> 00:08:45.519 other people and programs to help you get ramped up 159 00:08:45.559 --> 00:08:48.639 and get more involved. And it was more of a 160 00:08:48.840 --> 00:08:52.120 gradual on ramping that I definitely appreciated at the time. 161 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:55.279 And I only have good things to say about going 162 00:08:55.279 --> 00:08:57.879 through that process and that company because it did help 163 00:08:57.960 --> 00:09:00.720 me get up and running and you know, get my 164 00:09:00.759 --> 00:09:01.840 career jump started. 165 00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:02.639 All right. 166 00:09:02.679 --> 00:09:04.399 I don't disagree with any of that, but I do 167 00:09:04.440 --> 00:09:07.080 feel like we're kind of short shifting the whole startup 168 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:10.799 experience here, because there is a coolness to being able 169 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:13.279 to say, you know, hey, I watched this really great 170 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:14.240 YouTube video on. 171 00:09:14.960 --> 00:09:16.679 Fire Store or whatever it is, you know, and. 172 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:21.519 It's filling a void in our ecosystem, and I'm we're 173 00:09:21.559 --> 00:09:23.799 just going to go in there and bring it in 174 00:09:23.879 --> 00:09:25.840 and get it done, and we're going to do it today. 175 00:09:26.679 --> 00:09:30.399 And you only do that kind of thing at a startup. 176 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:34.000 I gotta say, if working at big companies, if you 177 00:09:34.080 --> 00:09:36.960 want to get a new technology, like let's say that 178 00:09:36.960 --> 00:09:39.080 they're doing traditional rest and you really are a huge 179 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:42.559 fan of graph quel, you have to go and drive that. 180 00:09:42.480 --> 00:09:46.200 Thing daily every day. 181 00:09:46.559 --> 00:09:52.080 Working with engineering management, product management, project management. These are 182 00:09:52.120 --> 00:09:55.200 big ships and they are crazy hard to steer. And 183 00:09:55.240 --> 00:09:59.080 so when folks are saying, oh, it's really hard to 184 00:09:59.279 --> 00:10:01.879 get something done, the yeah, that's politics, and it's everything else, 185 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:03.639 and it's schedules and and it's all that. 186 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:08.039 So there are some advantages to that small company vibe of. 187 00:10:08.120 --> 00:10:10.600 You can kind of just you know, get it done, 188 00:10:10.840 --> 00:10:12.879 which is is a really nice feeling sometimes. 189 00:10:13.480 --> 00:10:18.399 Absolutely, if you're ready to take ownership of stuff, you 190 00:10:18.440 --> 00:10:21.200 can kill it at a small company. You just have 191 00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:24.279 to be. I guess the biggest thing a big shift 192 00:10:24.320 --> 00:10:29.200 for me was I I was used to going through 193 00:10:29.240 --> 00:10:33.360 a lot of communication channels before getting minimal access to 194 00:10:33.440 --> 00:10:36.759 whatever it was that we needed at home depot from 195 00:10:36.879 --> 00:10:39.919 you know, from another team or an API endpoint or whatever. 196 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:45.080 And I had learned pretty early on that suggesting new technologies, 197 00:10:45.360 --> 00:10:49.159 new potent, anything that was going to cost money probably 198 00:10:49.919 --> 00:10:53.759 was never going to happen. They decided at a much 199 00:10:53.799 --> 00:10:56.919 higher level than my team, or my manager or even 200 00:10:56.960 --> 00:11:01.639 my department, what technologies we were using, what vendors we 201 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:06.080 had access to for anything, and good luck getting something 202 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:08.519 from the grassroots started that you heard about that you 203 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:10.600 thought would be really useful to the team. That was 204 00:11:10.679 --> 00:11:13.200 just that was going to die on the vine. But 205 00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:17.240 in startups that is absolutely the case. It's like, if 206 00:11:17.279 --> 00:11:19.639 you see something and you have an idea of a 207 00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:22.279 way to make it better, you can just throw it 208 00:11:22.320 --> 00:11:26.200 out there and probably start running with it that same 209 00:11:26.279 --> 00:11:29.000 day if you have the time and the energy to 210 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:32.600 do so, which is awesome. It feels so good and 211 00:11:32.720 --> 00:11:36.240 knock stuff out that quickly, and it's a great way 212 00:11:36.279 --> 00:11:36.759 to look. 213 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:40.159 Exactly. 214 00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:44.159 It's true, you can you can get into a mess 215 00:11:44.200 --> 00:11:47.080 of spaghetti and a lot of vendor charges really quickly 216 00:11:47.120 --> 00:11:50.320 if you're not keeping up with it. But at the 217 00:11:50.360 --> 00:11:54.519 same time you can also you could also really improve 218 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:57.720 everything in a very short amount of time if if 219 00:11:57.759 --> 00:12:01.120 you make the right decisions and kind of value your options. 220 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:04.919 So fun story back in my big insurance day is 221 00:12:04.919 --> 00:12:08.080 one of those like political battles that I fodd or 222 00:12:08.120 --> 00:12:13.440 tried to spearhead was getting Chrome installed on everybody's PCs 223 00:12:15.759 --> 00:12:19.600 because this was back when Chrome was was pretty new 224 00:12:20.039 --> 00:12:23.200 and we were all on lockdown windows setups right, so 225 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:25.799 you couldn't you had no admin access, you can't, you 226 00:12:25.799 --> 00:12:29.879 couldn't install a program. And so Chrome came out and 227 00:12:29.919 --> 00:12:32.440 I was like, well, people are starting to use this thing, right, like, 228 00:12:32.519 --> 00:12:34.639 we should have it. It has good developer tools, This 229 00:12:34.720 --> 00:12:38.000 could really benefit us and the executives, Like like I 230 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:41.279 had to schedule meetings with executives to try to get 231 00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:43.840 this to happen because they were saying, well, our apps 232 00:12:43.840 --> 00:12:46.200 don't support Chrome, why do you need this? And like 233 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:50.639 just the absurdity of that entire process, right, Like, especially 234 00:12:50.720 --> 00:12:54.080 given the benefit of hindsight and looking back at this 235 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:58.200 is just it gets frustrating at a certain point. Like 236 00:12:58.279 --> 00:13:00.840 if if you're the type of person that wants total 237 00:13:00.879 --> 00:13:03.080 control over what you're doing and want to be able 238 00:13:03.120 --> 00:13:07.159 to try and experiment with things, that those sorts of experiences, 239 00:13:07.159 --> 00:13:08.840 I mean, things like that are eventually why I left 240 00:13:08.840 --> 00:13:12.120 that company is because that's it just gets ridiculous. Right, 241 00:13:12.200 --> 00:13:14.279 At a certain point, you just can't take that sort 242 00:13:14.320 --> 00:13:15.039 of thing anymore. 243 00:13:15.799 --> 00:13:19.399 Yeah, I think the there's a bias here when you 244 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:22.480 think about like a company culture and how it can 245 00:13:22.519 --> 00:13:26.120 go wrong. I think in the in the small startup case, 246 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.480 the going wrong tends to error towards workoholism. 247 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:32.039 Right, it's just we or we just do we just 248 00:13:32.039 --> 00:13:34.000 got to go go, go, go go kind of thing, 249 00:13:34.000 --> 00:13:35.879 and it's just you're it's crazy. 250 00:13:36.799 --> 00:13:39.879 Whereas in the big companies when they go bad in 251 00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:43.240 terms of culture, they kind of bias towards just politics, 252 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:47.480 just endless politics, endless meetings that never resolved anything, and 253 00:13:47.480 --> 00:13:50.080 it's just kind of soul crushing and grinding. And then 254 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:53.320 so I guess that's that is a decision point there 255 00:13:53.399 --> 00:13:56.159 is like, Hey, if things go wrong, which direction do 256 00:13:56.279 --> 00:13:58.639 I want them to go wrong in? Is it is 257 00:13:58.639 --> 00:14:01.200 it overworking myself or is it just kind of being 258 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.639 frustrated to the point where I'm just like, ah, peace out, 259 00:14:03.840 --> 00:14:05.039 I don't need this stuff anymore. 260 00:14:05.320 --> 00:14:07.679 And I think though, like that those might just be 261 00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.039 good red flags to look for if you're like interviewing 262 00:14:11.120 --> 00:14:14.320 or evaluating a job, right Like, if you are interviewing 263 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.600 or if you are looking into a startup, those are 264 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:18.600 the sort of questions you want to ask, right like 265 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:21.440 how many hours am I expected to work? Is overtime 266 00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:23.639 going to be a thing here? Is it expected? Like 267 00:14:24.039 --> 00:14:26.440 I think startup you could probably expect to do a 268 00:14:26.480 --> 00:14:30.000 bit more work. But you know, unless unless you're really 269 00:14:30.559 --> 00:14:33.639 that sort of person that wants to throw yourself headfirst 270 00:14:33.639 --> 00:14:36.440 into this stuff, like I would definitely consider it a 271 00:14:36.440 --> 00:14:38.799 red flag if they told me, you know, you're expected 272 00:14:38.840 --> 00:14:41.360 to work fifty sixty hours a week or to do 273 00:14:41.919 --> 00:14:44.960 the weekend work, And so that's the sort of thing 274 00:14:45.000 --> 00:14:47.799 I would look for. And on the flip side, like 275 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:51.679 with big companies, I mean, you would want to ask 276 00:14:51.759 --> 00:14:55.159 questions about how much authority do developers have, how much 277 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:58.519 are they involved in the decision making processes, you know, 278 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:00.679 how much do they get to say, and what technologies 279 00:15:00.679 --> 00:15:04.840 are used because I've been involved. Even though those are 280 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:08.960 like stereotypical things about these companies, there's certainly pockets of 281 00:15:08.960 --> 00:15:13.000 big companies that operate more like a startup, right and 282 00:15:13.080 --> 00:15:16.720 there are startups that are a little bit more stable 283 00:15:16.759 --> 00:15:19.000 and secure. So those are the sort of things I 284 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:22.879 guess to look for as you're exploring your options. 285 00:15:23.399 --> 00:15:26.200 And another good thing to consider is what kind of 286 00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.200 experience are you looking to gain, Like do you want 287 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:33.720 to go super deep into one particular either area of 288 00:15:33.759 --> 00:15:38.840 expertise or one product like that's because that's typically what 289 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:42.720 you're going to have on the enterprise level, is you're 290 00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:46.399 going to have one product that you are responsible for 291 00:15:46.960 --> 00:15:49.320 and it's but it's going to be a complex product 292 00:15:49.480 --> 00:15:51.960 more more likely than not, So you're going to be 293 00:15:52.080 --> 00:15:54.720 handling the databases, you're going to be handling the back ends, 294 00:15:54.799 --> 00:15:56.840 the front ends, and you're going to be doing some 295 00:15:56.919 --> 00:16:00.720 probably some pretty complex stuff with it. But if you 296 00:16:00.759 --> 00:16:03.799 are if you like having a variety of things to 297 00:16:03.840 --> 00:16:06.960 work on, then maybe a startup is a better choice 298 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:10.360 for that because you'll probably be touching one website one day, 299 00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:12.440 and then you'll be looking at some kind of an 300 00:16:12.600 --> 00:16:14.919 SEO tool the next day, and then you'll be trying 301 00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.480 to get analytics a third day and figuring out how 302 00:16:17.519 --> 00:16:22.240 to connect all these different pieces of the company into 303 00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:25.720 things that make sense. So if you get a little 304 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:28.600 burned out on one piece, you could probably go pick 305 00:16:28.639 --> 00:16:31.200 up a bug somewhere else and get kind of a 306 00:16:31.240 --> 00:16:34.559 refresher and a little respite from it, and then you 307 00:16:34.840 --> 00:16:36.679 go back to it in a few days time. So 308 00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:41.480 it's kind of like breadth versus depth. And there's small 309 00:16:41.480 --> 00:16:45.360 companies startups still are doing very complex things as well, 310 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:48.159 but there's still going to be probably a better chance 311 00:16:48.200 --> 00:16:53.159 of you getting more experience in more different things than 312 00:16:53.200 --> 00:16:57.440 there would be on a larger product team in a 313 00:16:57.440 --> 00:16:58.440 big organization. 314 00:16:59.039 --> 00:17:01.799 And there's definitely I mean, when you think about a startup, 315 00:17:01.879 --> 00:17:04.440 right you've got your your seed round startup, and that's 316 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:07.559 basically pre product market fit, meaning that they still don't 317 00:17:07.559 --> 00:17:09.759 really know what they're doing, and. 318 00:17:09.720 --> 00:17:11.519 That can be wild. 319 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.359 Everything's changing all the time, versus like a C like 320 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:17.240 a Series A or a Series B or Series C, 321 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:20.400 where the company knows what it's doing now it's just 322 00:17:20.400 --> 00:17:23.200 a question of like scaling it up and getting to 323 00:17:23.240 --> 00:17:25.200 be larger, and there's a bit more of a of 324 00:17:25.240 --> 00:17:27.599 a comfort zone in there. And then on the big 325 00:17:27.599 --> 00:17:32.440 company side, there's there's tech companies like Google and Facebook, 326 00:17:32.480 --> 00:17:34.519 and these are companies that are have kind of a 327 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:38.039 cored engineering, like a heart in engineering. And then you've 328 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:40.480 got your sort of brick and mortar startups like your 329 00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:44.599 home depot, your Walmart, your Nike, where they're companies that 330 00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:50.079 culturally are really about like having a star and you're 331 00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:53.000 like the weird tech folks coming in saying, well, way 332 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:54.599 we can sell this stuff online? 333 00:17:54.720 --> 00:17:54.960 You know. 334 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:57.759 So there's definitely when you talk about like the things 335 00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:59.880 to look out for in the interview and questions like that, 336 00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:03.359 got to think about those like where is this company, 337 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:05.960 what's its background and is. 338 00:18:05.920 --> 00:18:07.839 That going to work within my career? And where I 339 00:18:07.839 --> 00:18:09.240 want to take my career. Yeah. 340 00:18:09.240 --> 00:18:11.440 When I worked in Big Insurance, we had to wear 341 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:15.519 a shirt and tie into the office every day because 342 00:18:16.160 --> 00:18:19.960 there was an insurance company right the whole it aspect 343 00:18:20.000 --> 00:18:22.200 of it was just one component of it, and it 344 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:24.640 was just a company policy you wear shirt and tie. 345 00:18:24.759 --> 00:18:27.880 So I got dressed up every day. I was prepared 346 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:33.200 every uh every like wedding and events like. I was ready, like, man, 347 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.359 I got a full I got a full wardrobe, ready. 348 00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:38.160 For this business, casual, ready for anything. 349 00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:43.720 Yeah. I got a smock at Walmart, a full on smock. Yeah. 350 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.279 And I actually knew the cheer too. 351 00:18:45.720 --> 00:18:46.960 Oh yeah, yeah, I had. 352 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:49.720 I was a principal engineer. I wasn't anywhere near I 353 00:18:49.720 --> 00:18:51.720 did you know? I would go into the store. I'm like, hey, 354 00:18:51.720 --> 00:18:52.279 I worked there. 355 00:18:52.319 --> 00:18:56.440 I guess home Depot, Apron, the whole nine yards. But before, 356 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.319 right before I got there and got hired, everybody, even 357 00:19:00.480 --> 00:19:03.880 people who worked in our corporate offices, were required I think, 358 00:19:03.920 --> 00:19:07.119 to do maybe three or four store days a year 359 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:09.440 where they would go in and be on the front 360 00:19:09.480 --> 00:19:12.519 lines helping customers and dealing with all the stuff that 361 00:19:12.559 --> 00:19:16.759 store employees do on a daily basis. And once I 362 00:19:16.920 --> 00:19:20.079 was hired, they had actually made that they had gotten 363 00:19:20.160 --> 00:19:23.319 rid of that as a requirement, So you did your 364 00:19:23.319 --> 00:19:27.480 one store day when you first started, and then pretty 365 00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:30.720 much never again because they wanted you working on whatever 366 00:19:30.759 --> 00:19:32.640 it was that you were actually hired to do. But 367 00:19:32.720 --> 00:19:35.960 I you know, I really enjoyed it, and I think 368 00:19:36.400 --> 00:19:39.200 a lot of people gained a lot more empathy for 369 00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:44.160 the amount of stuff that customer service or customer facing 370 00:19:44.200 --> 00:19:47.440 people put up with on a daily basis, and especially 371 00:19:47.519 --> 00:19:51.200 when it's something like home depot hardware, where people come 372 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.480 in and something is broken off of their window but 373 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:55.759 they have no idea what it's called. You have no 374 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:58.799 idea what it's called, You've never even seen this piece before, 375 00:19:59.160 --> 00:20:01.400 and you're expected to try and help them find it 376 00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:04.640 in the store and replace it. So it was a 377 00:20:04.799 --> 00:20:07.480 I think it's a great wake up call for people 378 00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:12.039 who have not worked in customers facing jobs before just 379 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:15.559 how difficult that can be and how tiring it can be. 380 00:20:16.000 --> 00:20:18.640 But at the same time, I also very much understand 381 00:20:19.079 --> 00:20:22.400 we're paying you a lot more, most likely than we're 382 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:25.599 paying the store employees, So do your job, whatever it 383 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:27.240 was we actually hired. 384 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:30.279 You to do. I do think like it. I don't 385 00:20:30.279 --> 00:20:32.440 know if this is strictly speaking true, but at larger 386 00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:36.359 companies you do feel a little bit more removed from 387 00:20:36.599 --> 00:20:38.839 whatever it is the company is doing. You feel a 388 00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.400 bit more like a cog and a giant system. And 389 00:20:42.640 --> 00:20:45.160 I have to imagine that home depot program was trying 390 00:20:45.160 --> 00:20:48.200 to help you rectify that or bring people close to 391 00:20:48.279 --> 00:20:52.319 it to it, because when I worked in commercial automobile insurance, 392 00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.920 like I never met anybody that was actually insurance agent 393 00:20:56.119 --> 00:20:59.680 or an actual policy holder, so it was very I 394 00:20:59.799 --> 00:21:03.119 was very far removed. It felt very just esoteric random 395 00:21:03.359 --> 00:21:06.079 stuff I was doing. And it does give you, like 396 00:21:06.200 --> 00:21:09.720 a little bus motivation. It does help when you really 397 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:12.799 feel like you are doing something important or worthwhile or 398 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:15.799 have a connection to whatever it is the end product 399 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:17.480 or service that it is you're producing. 400 00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:19.519 Yeah, that's a big deal. 401 00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:21.640