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<v Speaker 5>Plus, you are now listening to True Murder The most

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<v Speaker 5>shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that

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<v Speaker 5>have written about them Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK.

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<v Speaker 5>Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking

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<v Speaker 5>and infamous.

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<v Speaker 6>Killers in true crime history.

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<v Speaker 3>True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski,

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<v Speaker 3>Good Evening.

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<v Speaker 6>During an eight month period in nineteen seventy seven and

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<v Speaker 6>nineteen seventy eight, the city of Columbus, Georgia, was terrorized

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<v Speaker 6>by a mysterious serial killer who raped and ritualistically strangled

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<v Speaker 6>seven elderly women in one of the community's finer neighborhoods.

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<v Speaker 6>Despite intense of efforts on the part of police, the

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<v Speaker 6>Stocking Strangler, as he came to be known, managed to

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<v Speaker 6>elude capture. After the last murder in April nineteen seventy eight,

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<v Speaker 6>the case went cold. In the spring of nineteen eighty four,

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<v Speaker 6>a series of fortuitous events connected to an unrelated murder

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<v Speaker 6>and a stolen pistol led to the capture of Carlton Gary,

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<v Speaker 6>who had recently escaped from a South Carolina prison. Following

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<v Speaker 6>a dramatic trial in nineteen eighty six, Gary was convicted

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<v Speaker 6>of three of the seven Columbus murders and sentenced to death,

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<v Speaker 6>a penalty that would not be carried out until twenty

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<v Speaker 6>and eighteen. This convoluted tale of crime and punishment is

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<v Speaker 6>punctuated by dramatic twists and turns, including issues of race,

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<v Speaker 6>alleged conspiracy and misconduct on the part of the police,

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<v Speaker 6>in the judiciary, and errors in DNA analysis. The book

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<v Speaker 6>that we're featuring this evening is The Columbus Stocking Strangler

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<v Speaker 6>with my special guest author will William Rawlings. Welcome back

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<v Speaker 6>to the program, and thank you very much for this interview.

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<v Speaker 6>William Rowlings.

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<v Speaker 2>It's my pleasure to be here, Dan, thank you so

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<v Speaker 2>inviting me.

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<v Speaker 6>Thank you so much, and congratulations on this book that

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<v Speaker 6>is to be released September sixth, so by the time

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<v Speaker 6>people hear this interview, it will have been released just recently.

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<v Speaker 6>Congratulations on this book. This is an incredible wild tale.

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<v Speaker 6>As we talked about just before in the introduction, let's

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<v Speaker 6>get right to Columbus, Georgia, and you talk about that

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<v Speaker 6>it really occurs. These crimes really occur in a village

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<v Speaker 6>of Winton about two and a half miles east of Columbus, Georgia.

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<v Speaker 6>So this occurs in the as you talk about a

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<v Speaker 6>crime wave in nineteen seventy seven, tell us a little

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<v Speaker 6>bit about Columbus, Georgia and this village of Winton, who

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<v Speaker 6>it comprised, members of society who live there, and a

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<v Speaker 6>little bit about Camp Benning and its relationship to Columbus

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<v Speaker 6>and this story.

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<v Speaker 2>Today, Columbus, Georgia is the state's second largest city. But

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<v Speaker 2>if you back up a good bit, and by that

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<v Speaker 2>I mean to the nineteenth century when it was founded

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<v Speaker 2>in the first the end of the first quarter of

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<v Speaker 2>the nineteenth century, Columbus was a river town. It was

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<v Speaker 2>the uppermost novel reach of the Chattahoochee River. It's because

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<v Speaker 2>of the river. It's been always been a mill town

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<v Speaker 2>and it's always been a somewhat wealthy city over the years.

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<v Speaker 2>During the Civil War years of the eighteen sixties, it

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<v Speaker 2>was a major town for production of Confederate arma months

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<v Speaker 2>and so forth, and soon in the twentieth century. There

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<v Speaker 2>are still mills there, but the economy is diversified, and

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<v Speaker 2>today it's a fairly wealthy and very cosmopolitan city. It's

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<v Speaker 2>a nice place and I like Columbus a lot. I

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<v Speaker 2>have nothing but positive things to say about the town Winton.

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<v Speaker 2>The district of Winton at one time was a separate

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<v Speaker 2>village a couple of miles inland from the river, but

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<v Speaker 2>today has been engulfed by the city and is basically

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<v Speaker 2>a very upscale neighborhood. But there are some modest homes,

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<v Speaker 2>but some of the finest homes in this city itself

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<v Speaker 2>are located in this area, and a number of people

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<v Speaker 2>with social prominence and a good little bit of wealth

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<v Speaker 2>are there as well. It's an interesting part of town,

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<v Speaker 2>but it's very definitely part of urban Columbus.

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<v Speaker 6>Let's talk about as you describe, as you title crime

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<v Speaker 6>wave September eleventh, nineteen seventy seven, in this predominantly white neighborhood,

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<v Speaker 6>and tell us who is.

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<v Speaker 2>Attacked and how well this is in a chapter of

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<v Speaker 2>the book were titled crime Wave. And I should say

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<v Speaker 2>that that there were a series of violent crimes, perhaps

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<v Speaker 2>no more so, perhaps less so than today, But at

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<v Speaker 2>the time there were several robberies, murders, rapes, and so forth,

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<v Speaker 2>and so on. September eleventh, nineteen seventy seven, elderly white

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<v Speaker 2>female named Gertrude Miller was who ran a kindergarten, was

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<v Speaker 2>attacked in her bedroom by a man. She woke up

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<v Speaker 2>and found this person standing over her. She there was

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<v Speaker 2>a brief period of time when she the light was

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<v Speaker 2>turned on and she recognized him as being a black male.

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<v Speaker 2>He beat her savagely and then raped her. She was

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<v Speaker 2>apparently left for dead, but she did not die, and

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<v Speaker 2>a neighbor discovered her the next morning. And that was

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<v Speaker 2>one more crime that had occurred in a series. And

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<v Speaker 2>yet it was the start of this series of events

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<v Speaker 2>attributed to the Columbus Strangler.

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<v Speaker 6>There was a description made by Gertrude Miller, wasn't there?

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, there was. She described him as being a fairly

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<v Speaker 2>young black male, being handsome, having a short afro, having

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<v Speaker 2>I believe no facial hair at the time, and this

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<v Speaker 2>and that. But she had been she actually had a

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<v Speaker 2>fractureous skull, and there was always some question as to

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<v Speaker 2>whether or not her identification was completely correct, although she

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<v Speaker 2>insisted quite well that she saw the guy, she'd recognize

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<v Speaker 2>him again, et cetera, et cetera.

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<v Speaker 6>What did police do with this composite? Was it release

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<v Speaker 6>to the press or the public, well, the police, not

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<v Speaker 6>that moment.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a little bit later on in there in

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<v Speaker 2>the series of events that occurred, the police realized that

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<v Speaker 2>this event was apparently the first of a series of

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<v Speaker 2>events which became known as the Strangler's Reign of Terror.

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<v Speaker 2>They later went back the next month and they interviewed her.

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<v Speaker 2>They got a composite drawing of her which they passed around.

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<v Speaker 2>It was not particularly helpful, but that was a matter

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<v Speaker 2>of some sensitivities that showed a black mail in the

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<v Speaker 2>black community. The African American community was concerned that they

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<v Speaker 2>were trying to pin this on a person of color,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was a soul point there in Columbus for

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<v Speaker 2>the longest time.

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<v Speaker 6>You write that. Six days later, September sixteenth, Miss Mary

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<v Speaker 6>Willis Jackson, known as Fern, didn't show up at work.

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<v Speaker 6>She was a director of education for the Columbus Health Department.

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<v Speaker 6>She's fifty nine years old and she was a widow

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<v Speaker 6>as well. What do her daughter and police find? What's

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<v Speaker 6>her state?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, she was pillar of the community and very prominent

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<v Speaker 2>and very well respected. She simply didn't come to work.

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<v Speaker 2>One day. Someone discovered that her house had been broken

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<v Speaker 2>into her car had been stolen, and they found her body.

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<v Speaker 2>She was naked, the waist down in her her face

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<v Speaker 2>had been covered up like the like Miss Miller. Forgive me,

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<v Speaker 2>I forgot to say that Miss Miller was apparently her attack.

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<v Speaker 2>I apparently attempted to strangle her, apparently with a stocking,

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<v Speaker 2>although that was not exactly clear at that point. But

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<v Speaker 2>Fern was strangled with her stocking, and other than her car,

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<v Speaker 2>her valuables were not taken. It appeared to be a

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<v Speaker 2>very savage murder of the same sort where she was

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<v Speaker 2>savage beaten and then raped and strangled and left dead.

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<v Speaker 2>In this case, so this became the first murder that

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<v Speaker 2>was attributed to the strangler. You have to understand that

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<v Speaker 2>you have to have several people before you understand before

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<v Speaker 2>a trend is happening, And this was the second one,

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<v Speaker 2>and people begin to say, oh, it looks a little

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<v Speaker 2>bit like miss Gertrude millis event.

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<v Speaker 6>In terms of forensic hair samples were gathered, what did

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<v Speaker 6>they find, if anything.

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<v Speaker 2>They found in this case and in several others that

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<v Speaker 2>there were foreign hairs that appeared to be pubic hairs

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<v Speaker 2>that were described as being quote negeroid that is the

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<v Speaker 2>term that was used, not mine. And it was sort

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<v Speaker 2>of assumed that the attacker in this case was a

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<v Speaker 2>black male, similar the same description that had been given

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<v Speaker 2>with Miss Gertrude Miller earlier. This in order to avoid

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<v Speaker 2>inflaming racial sensitivities, the ledged race of the attacker was

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<v Speaker 2>not made a big issue. They simply were looking for somebody.

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<v Speaker 6>Right now, you write soon after we're talking September twenty fourth,

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<v Speaker 6>Jean Dimenstein, seventy one year old, retired cowner of a

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<v Speaker 6>little department store. She was unmarried, and she'd lived in

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<v Speaker 6>her home for twenty three years. There was a break

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<v Speaker 6>and enter attempt the night before. So tell us what

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<v Speaker 6>happens the night before, and then what happens with Jean

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<v Speaker 6>Diaminstein during.

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<v Speaker 2>This period of time. And let me say we're talking

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<v Speaker 2>here between September nineteen seventy seven and the early part

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<v Speaker 2>of say the winner of nineteen seventy eight, there were

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<v Speaker 2>a number of burglaries in this entire in this district.

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<v Speaker 2>Ms Diemenstein's neighbor had an attempted break in at her house.

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<v Speaker 2>The person was unable to get in. It turned out

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<v Speaker 2>the next night the apparent same person returned and broke

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<v Speaker 2>into them Miss Diemenstein's house, and again she was raped

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<v Speaker 2>and murdered, with a crime scene that was very similar

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<v Speaker 2>to the one of Fern Jackson from the sense that

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<v Speaker 2>she'd been strangled with a stocking, her body was covered up,

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<v Speaker 2>and the pattern of the arrangement of the murder scene

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<v Speaker 2>would occur in subsequent murders attributed to the strangler.

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<v Speaker 6>One of the most horrifying things elements of this crime

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<v Speaker 6>was regarding the door tell us about that.

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<v Speaker 2>She had a door to her car poard and was locked,

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<v Speaker 2>of course, but apparently was put on in such a

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<v Speaker 2>way that the hinges were the outside. So someone simply

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<v Speaker 2>put the hinge pins out and removed the door, and

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<v Speaker 2>the lady that discovered her body came up and found

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<v Speaker 2>her door had been removed and realized her her horror

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<v Speaker 2>what might be found, and that's when the police were

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<v Speaker 2>called and her body was subsequently identified.

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<v Speaker 6>Right now, this is raising panic in the community that

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<v Speaker 6>you get headlines from the Ledger inquirer sex killer strike

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<v Speaker 6>second time. Second elderly women in nine days found molested,

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<v Speaker 6>in strangled in their homes. And then there enters someone

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<v Speaker 6>that is an important figure a coroner, Kilgore tell us

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<v Speaker 6>what he has to say and what it sparks.

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<v Speaker 2>Eventually, the corner in Georgia is an elected position. You

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<v Speaker 2>have to understand that, and one does. One needs only

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<v Speaker 2>a modicum of medical background. That's usually done by what

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<v Speaker 2>to call medical examiners in the state. And so basically

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<v Speaker 2>you've got a politician who is elected office and sometimes

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<v Speaker 2>they make statements that are inflammatory. He made a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of a number of statements that said that the killer

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<v Speaker 2>was brutal, that he had he revealed details of the

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<v Speaker 2>crime that the police said should not have been revealed.

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<v Speaker 2>He alleged that the killer was probably black, although the

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<v Speaker 2>police were trying to keep that information confidential, and he

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<v Speaker 2>was a bit of a thorn in the side during

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<v Speaker 2>the entire investigation. According to my opinion from what I.

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<v Speaker 6>Have read right now, the police proceed the look at footprints,

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<v Speaker 6>Layton fingerprints, house success where they are obtaining any of those,

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<v Speaker 6>and you write that soon a suspect with a question

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<v Speaker 6>mark emerges.

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<v Speaker 2>Well after the first two murders and the attack on

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<v Speaker 2>miss Gertrude Miller, the police were under a tremendous amount

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<v Speaker 2>of pressure to saw office. He was particularly violent and

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<v Speaker 2>vile crimes and the most innocence of victims to three

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<v Speaker 2>elderly ladies. And so the police were under a lot

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<v Speaker 2>of pressure. And there was a twenty five year old

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<v Speaker 2>African American male named Jerome Lebas. Lebas was to use

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<v Speaker 2>the term at the time. He was of limited intellectual

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<v Speaker 2>abilities and that was from multiple accounts and was sort

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<v Speaker 2>of a pitiful fella, I guess. So he had a

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<v Speaker 2>girlfriend who was about thirty years older than he. She

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<v Speaker 2>was in her fifties, and apparently they've gotten in dispute.

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<v Speaker 2>He alleged that she had quote been with another man

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<v Speaker 2>end quote, and he actually strangled and raped her. She

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<v Speaker 2>was an a middle aged black femail. The mo of

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<v Speaker 2>the two that is, a strangulation and rape and a

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<v Speaker 2>violent attack against a woman was vaguely similar. The police

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<v Speaker 2>knew that they were a police thought that the crimes

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<v Speaker 2>were committed by a blackmail. So they got Jerome to

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<v Speaker 2>confess to the first two murders, right, And it was

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<v Speaker 2>a parable situation because the man was pitiful to the police.

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<v Speaker 2>Chief began to say, well, we've got ourselves a suspect,

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<v Speaker 2>and the mayor said, we've got a suspect and the

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<v Speaker 2>community started to breathe a sigh of relief. And when

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<v Speaker 2>they called up the district attorney at the time and

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<v Speaker 2>presented the evidence to him, no, no, he said, listen,

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<v Speaker 2>you don't have enough evidence to convince this person. And

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<v Speaker 2>despite the fact that he quote unquote confessed, this is

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<v Speaker 2>not legitimate. Number one, he could not read the confession

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<v Speaker 2>that he signed. And number two he signed it one

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<v Speaker 2>evening and he recanted the next morning. So it appeared

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<v Speaker 2>that the police were trying to find this man or

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<v Speaker 2>Pendy's murders on him. Then more happened and it became

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<v Speaker 2>evident that he was not the killer.

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<v Speaker 7>All.

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<v Speaker 2>They remained in jail for the murder of his girlfriend.

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<v Speaker 6>Yeah, well, it's interesting and very compelling that evidence that

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<v Speaker 6>he may not be the killer may being an exaggeration

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<v Speaker 6>or understatement. You write about October twenty first, three days

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<v Speaker 6>later after it seems like they have a reasonable suspect,

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<v Speaker 6>a good suspect. The apartment of Florence Scheibel. She's a

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<v Speaker 6>widow living independently, just released from hospital as well from

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<v Speaker 6>with a broken hip, and her son Paul would visit

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<v Speaker 6>every day, checked on her every day, tell us what

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<v Speaker 6>happens what to police and his son find.

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<v Speaker 2>Miss Sabel was perhaps the most pitiful of the case.

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<v Speaker 2>She was eighty nine years old, ten days Shah ninety

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<v Speaker 2>years of age. She had had a host of medical

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<v Speaker 2>problems and was said to be essentially deaf and for

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<v Speaker 2>the most part blind. She saw things with blur, and

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<v Speaker 2>perhaps her only enjoy in life was getting out in

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<v Speaker 2>her front yard with her walker and trying to pick

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00:16:06.279 --> 00:16:09.759
<v Speaker 2>things up. She was just really a pitiful thing, and

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<v Speaker 2>there was testimony from neighbors and witnesses that she would

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<v Speaker 2>commonly leave her front door unlocked when she was out

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<v Speaker 2>in the yard. Her apartment building, it was a bit

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<v Speaker 2>of a duplex upstairs and downstairs apartments, and she was

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00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:27.840
<v Speaker 2>right on the street, so it appeared it was postulated

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00:16:27.879 --> 00:16:30.320
<v Speaker 2>that when she was out of the yard someone slipped

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00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:35.519
<v Speaker 2>in her front door, she would not have noticed it. Accordingly,

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00:16:35.960 --> 00:16:38.600
<v Speaker 2>when she came back in, she was attacked and again

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00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.600
<v Speaker 2>brutally raped and murdered. She was strangled with a stocking,

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00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:46.039
<v Speaker 2>her neck was broken. She was beat up like the others,

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<v Speaker 2>and it was horrible. Her son and his wife came.

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<v Speaker 2>Her son came to visit her. He found that her

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<v Speaker 2>door was unlocked, he called his wife. He was afraid

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<v Speaker 2>to even go in. It was his wife who've discovered

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<v Speaker 2>her mother in law dead.

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<v Speaker 6>Now you see that any kind of calm that had

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00:17:02.320 --> 00:17:06.839
<v Speaker 6>been established with this suspect being arrested was gone.

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<v Speaker 2>It was And you have to understand, now, this is

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<v Speaker 2>the third of the three murder, of the first three murders,

301
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.319
<v Speaker 2>this is the third murder plus a fourth attack, assuming

302
00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:19.000
<v Speaker 2>Miss Miller was attacked by the same person. And so

303
00:17:19.200 --> 00:17:21.079
<v Speaker 2>you had a community that was breathing a sigh of

304
00:17:21.160 --> 00:17:25.039
<v Speaker 2>relief at the supposedly or a supposed arrest of suspect,

305
00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:28.160
<v Speaker 2>and long to hold. Here you have another murder, another

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00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.559
<v Speaker 2>vile murder that it's the same pattern, and this in

307
00:17:31.759 --> 00:17:36.640
<v Speaker 2>essence sort of frees suspicion from Jerome Levas. He remained

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00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:38.720
<v Speaker 2>in jail, of course, for the other murder. And to

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00:17:38.839 --> 00:17:42.160
<v Speaker 2>fast forward a little bit, one of the newspaper reporters

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<v Speaker 2>in town, a fellow named Karl Kanton, was suspicious and

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00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:49.400
<v Speaker 2>he kind of got an interview with Levas, and Levas

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00:17:49.440 --> 00:17:52.799
<v Speaker 2>at the time admitted to being present at the Kennedy

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00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:57.759
<v Speaker 2>assassination and then McKinley assassination, and was present when the

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00:17:57.920 --> 00:18:01.880
<v Speaker 2>Lindbergh baby was napped, I believe in the nineteen thirties,

315
00:18:02.279 --> 00:18:05.359
<v Speaker 2>and it was very very clear that almost no matter

316
00:18:05.400 --> 00:18:07.160
<v Speaker 2>what you said to him, he would agree to it.

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<v Speaker 2>He simply was not mentally capable of this. And it

318
00:18:11.440 --> 00:18:14.480
<v Speaker 2>became quite evident that the so called confession that he

319
00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.119
<v Speaker 2>had signed and then a candidate, was one that it

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00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.599
<v Speaker 2>had not been recorded by the police that had written

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00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:21.400
<v Speaker 2>it down, and so there was no evidence that he

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00:18:21.440 --> 00:18:23.480
<v Speaker 2>actually said what he did, and it pretty clear that

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00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.000
<v Speaker 2>he was being framed by the police.

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<v Speaker 6>Certainly didn't do anything for police credibility at that point,

325
00:18:29.519 --> 00:18:34.759
<v Speaker 6>absolutely not. And then Martha Thurmond, the sixty nine year

326
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:38.680
<v Speaker 6>old widow, retired school teacher, and this is interesting too.

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<v Speaker 6>The response from residence is that they put burglar bars

328
00:18:42.039 --> 00:18:46.480
<v Speaker 6>and alarms and did precautions screens on their windows, and

329
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:49.759
<v Speaker 6>she had done this. He had installed extra dead bolts.

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<v Speaker 6>What happens to Martha Thurmond.

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<v Speaker 2>She suffers the same fate as the other murders. That

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00:18:56.960 --> 00:18:59.200
<v Speaker 2>is to say, she was attacked in the middle of

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00:18:59.200 --> 00:19:02.359
<v Speaker 2>the night and bead and strangled and raped in the

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00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:05.960
<v Speaker 2>same general pattern as the others. The interesting thing about

335
00:19:06.000 --> 00:19:09.480
<v Speaker 2>this particular episode was that her son had been there

336
00:19:09.519 --> 00:19:12.039
<v Speaker 2>and had visited with her over the weekend and actually

337
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:14.839
<v Speaker 2>had left a few hours before she was murdered. He

338
00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:17.799
<v Speaker 2>had installed locks on her door, and apparently one of

339
00:19:17.839 --> 00:19:20.839
<v Speaker 2>the locks was installed backwards, that is to say, the

340
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:24.839
<v Speaker 2>screws for the dead boat lock were exposed to the outside.

341
00:19:24.880 --> 00:19:27.279
<v Speaker 2>So all it took was a few simple turns of

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00:19:27.279 --> 00:19:30.000
<v Speaker 2>a two to take her locks off and get inside,

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00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.119
<v Speaker 2>and of course that led to her death there.

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<v Speaker 6>And she was another person that was strangled with a nylon.

345
00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, of the seven case murder cases, five were strangled

346
00:19:41.920 --> 00:19:46.000
<v Speaker 2>with nylon with stockings a presumed nylon, one was strangled

347
00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:49.559
<v Speaker 2>with a scarf and and the other one was strangled

348
00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.599
<v Speaker 2>with a blind cord, a small cord as you'd use

349
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<v Speaker 2>to open her clothes curtains.

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<v Speaker 6>You say, press and citizens begin began referring to the

351
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<v Speaker 6>killer as the stocking strangler. Hence to tell your.

352
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<v Speaker 2>Book, Well, at this point, you had what four deaths,

353
00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:09.720
<v Speaker 2>all of which fit a pattern. Actually, if you include you,

354
00:20:09.759 --> 00:20:12.519
<v Speaker 2>and you include the intact owned miss Miller, you had

355
00:20:12.519 --> 00:20:16.319
<v Speaker 2>five that were murders or attempted murders where the victim

356
00:20:16.480 --> 00:20:19.599
<v Speaker 2>was strangled with a stocking and it became and also

357
00:20:19.880 --> 00:20:22.279
<v Speaker 2>as if you look at the crime scene reports, the

358
00:20:22.319 --> 00:20:25.119
<v Speaker 2>bodies were positioned in such a way there the face

359
00:20:25.279 --> 00:20:26.920
<v Speaker 2>was covered up and the rest of the body may

360
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:29.440
<v Speaker 2>have been exposed, this kind of thing, And so it

361
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:33.119
<v Speaker 2>became evident that apparently one person was committing these crimes,

362
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and they were all in a very close neighborhood. For example,

363
00:20:36.000 --> 00:20:38.960
<v Speaker 2>Miss Thurman and Ms. Shiper lived quite close together, as

364
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:39.640
<v Speaker 2>did the others.

365
00:20:39.799 --> 00:20:43.359
<v Speaker 6>Now there's a psychological profile of the killer released. Won't

366
00:20:43.400 --> 00:20:46.640
<v Speaker 6>fixate on too much. It says blackmail sixteen to twenty one,

367
00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:51.680
<v Speaker 6>high school graduate, possibly bedwether, fire starter or animal torturer, hunting,

368
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:55.400
<v Speaker 6>no anxiety, remorse or guilt, lives near the crime scene, areas,

369
00:20:55.440 --> 00:20:58.680
<v Speaker 6>sexually inadequate, pathological liar, pretty general.

370
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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, it was, and I think I think as

371
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:05.799
<v Speaker 2>a I won't say a move of desperation, but as

372
00:21:05.799 --> 00:21:08.640
<v Speaker 2>an attempt to get some insight on some of the people.

373
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<v Speaker 2>Check with the FBI profilers, and I think it's been

374
00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:18.079
<v Speaker 2>pretty well established that profiles are not necessarily accurate. This profile,

375
00:21:18.119 --> 00:21:20.720
<v Speaker 2>if you read it carefully, was fairly generic. It could

376
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:23.200
<v Speaker 2>have been in a number of people. And while there

377
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.119
<v Speaker 2>were some things that may have fit the eventually identified killer.

378
00:21:27.160 --> 00:21:29.039
<v Speaker 2>There were a lot of things that didn't. I don't

379
00:21:29.079 --> 00:21:32.119
<v Speaker 2>think it was helpful at all, but it gave some

380
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:33.680
<v Speaker 2>people something to think about.

381
00:21:33.640 --> 00:21:37.920
<v Speaker 6>An interesting development. Gertrude Miller is again the police. It's

382
00:21:38.079 --> 00:21:40.279
<v Speaker 6>common in some of at that time for them to

383
00:21:40.359 --> 00:21:44.960
<v Speaker 6>want to gain further information, potentially from hypnotizing her. So

384
00:21:45.279 --> 00:21:49.279
<v Speaker 6>a composite and this hypnosis is done, and a composite

385
00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:51.079
<v Speaker 6>is done. At that time, I believe maybe you can

386
00:21:51.119 --> 00:21:54.039
<v Speaker 6>tell us about that. But also a task force is

387
00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:57.799
<v Speaker 6>set up with a person named Ronnie Jones, I believe,

388
00:21:57.960 --> 00:22:00.480
<v Speaker 6>as the head of the task force. Us to what

389
00:22:00.519 --> 00:22:04.359
<v Speaker 6>the makeup of his task forces tell us about that development.

390
00:22:04.559 --> 00:22:06.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, by this time you had what for murders and

391
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:09.519
<v Speaker 2>one attack at least you had, and I should should

392
00:22:09.559 --> 00:22:11.480
<v Speaker 2>say that there were a number of burglaries in the

393
00:22:11.880 --> 00:22:16.079
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood too, so people attempted to entry into homes. And

394
00:22:16.079 --> 00:22:17.480
<v Speaker 2>you know, it may have been that there would have

395
00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:20.559
<v Speaker 2>been more murders, more violent crimes, but everyone was scared

396
00:22:20.680 --> 00:22:24.279
<v Speaker 2>very much so, and the pressure owned the authorities and

397
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.319
<v Speaker 2>that on is not only law enforcement but also the

398
00:22:27.359 --> 00:22:30.880
<v Speaker 2>city government to do something. Everyone says, we can't have

399
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.799
<v Speaker 2>this happening. I mean, you've got lots and lots of

400
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:36.839
<v Speaker 2>police on the street. Everyone is trying to catch this

401
00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:40.759
<v Speaker 2>mysterious strangler. He became by this time, he became known

402
00:22:40.799 --> 00:22:43.559
<v Speaker 2>as the Strangler. Everyone was trying to catch the strangler.

403
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:45.240
<v Speaker 2>And so we're going to solve the problem in the

404
00:22:45.279 --> 00:22:47.759
<v Speaker 2>old fashioned American way of setting up a task force.

405
00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:51.160
<v Speaker 2>And it was mentioned before the start of the year

406
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.920
<v Speaker 2>and really kind of got off the ground good fashion

407
00:22:54.039 --> 00:22:57.480
<v Speaker 2>after the New Year of nineteen and January nineteen seventy eight.

408
00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:02.920
<v Speaker 2>But the idea was that they would exhaust every possible

409
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:09.039
<v Speaker 2>manner of solving this problem. And yet it didn't make

410
00:23:09.079 --> 00:23:12.720
<v Speaker 2>any difference. Nothing really happened. The police were the police.

411
00:23:13.359 --> 00:23:16.640
<v Speaker 2>Days off were canceled. Everyone was working twelve hour shifts.

412
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:19.680
<v Speaker 2>There were assistants brought in from the FBI, the Georgia

413
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:24.319
<v Speaker 2>Bureau of Investigation. There were helicopters, helicopters flying around at night,

414
00:23:24.920 --> 00:23:29.400
<v Speaker 2>shining lights in the neighborhood. There were records, thousands of

415
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:32.400
<v Speaker 2>records of people that were pulled over by the police

416
00:23:32.440 --> 00:23:35.599
<v Speaker 2>and simply questioned. They still exist, by the way, huge

417
00:23:35.599 --> 00:23:40.200
<v Speaker 2>card files of them. And nothing happened. Despite the efforts.

418
00:23:40.039 --> 00:23:44.680
<v Speaker 6>December twenty eighth. Tommy Stevens is a maid at the

419
00:23:44.680 --> 00:23:47.559
<v Speaker 6>home of Miss Kathleen Woodroof. She's worked for her for

420
00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:51.200
<v Speaker 6>thirty three years, so she finds something out, but not

421
00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:54.759
<v Speaker 6>right away. She discovers something about Kathleen. Tell us what

422
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:57.000
<v Speaker 6>happens what she discovers.

423
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:01.759
<v Speaker 2>Miss Woodrooff, Kathleen Woodrooff was a very very prominent citizen.

424
00:24:01.960 --> 00:24:04.680
<v Speaker 2>She was a member of the very wealthy and very

425
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:09.880
<v Speaker 2>prominent Woodruff family. She was the widow of a former

426
00:24:10.039 --> 00:24:14.200
<v Speaker 2>University of Georgia football coach, I Believe Woodruff Field, and

427
00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:16.680
<v Speaker 2>one of the building at the University of Georgia and

428
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:20.759
<v Speaker 2>Athens is named for him. She was highly respected and

429
00:24:20.880 --> 00:24:24.480
<v Speaker 2>she lived again in Winton, in a nice part of town,

430
00:24:24.640 --> 00:24:27.240
<v Speaker 2>and she had a maid who had been with her

431
00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.480
<v Speaker 2>for years. Her maid comes in one morning and discovers

432
00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:34.119
<v Speaker 2>that she's still in bed sleeping, but it apparently was

433
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:36.640
<v Speaker 2>not outside of the fact that sometimes she simply slept

434
00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.079
<v Speaker 2>late in the morning. Her maid had noticed that when

435
00:24:39.119 --> 00:24:42.519
<v Speaker 2>she left the night before, she had been sitting a desk,

436
00:24:42.680 --> 00:24:45.119
<v Speaker 2>perhaps writing a check or something like that, And after

437
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:47.160
<v Speaker 2>a while, when she didn't wake up, her mate went

438
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:48.920
<v Speaker 2>in and looked at her and realized that she had

439
00:24:48.960 --> 00:24:50.720
<v Speaker 2>blood coming out of her mouth and she was in

440
00:24:50.759 --> 00:24:53.759
<v Speaker 2>fact dead. She called her son, who identified the body.

441
00:24:53.960 --> 00:24:56.559
<v Speaker 2>It's interesting in the fact and ironic in the fact

442
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:00.680
<v Speaker 2>that instead of she was not strangled with her but

443
00:25:00.799 --> 00:25:05.200
<v Speaker 2>strangled instead with a University of Georgia's scarf, which was

444
00:25:05.279 --> 00:25:08.440
<v Speaker 2>ironic in the sense that there was a big relationship

445
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:11.759
<v Speaker 2>between her late husband and the University of Georgia. She

446
00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:16.160
<v Speaker 2>was perhaps the most socially prominent individuals of the strangle

447
00:25:16.240 --> 00:25:18.240
<v Speaker 2>had murdered up to this point, and of course this

448
00:25:18.519 --> 00:25:19.920
<v Speaker 2>just stirred the pot further.

449
00:25:20.200 --> 00:25:22.920
<v Speaker 6>You say there was a reward offered as the panic

450
00:25:23.000 --> 00:25:27.160
<v Speaker 6>grew twenty thousand dollars now and then some and there

451
00:25:27.240 --> 00:25:31.440
<v Speaker 6>was patrols in the Winton area, so the police presence,

452
00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:35.279
<v Speaker 6>some visible, some not so visible. You say, break ins

453
00:25:35.279 --> 00:25:39.519
<v Speaker 6>were diminished, but not eliminated. And two residential break ins

454
00:25:39.519 --> 00:25:42.559
<v Speaker 6>of interest occurred in this period of time as well,

455
00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:43.160
<v Speaker 6>didn't they?

456
00:25:43.319 --> 00:25:46.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, which ones were you referring? There was so many

457
00:25:46.799 --> 00:25:49.759
<v Speaker 2>of them. There was a Missus Swift, Yes, there was

458
00:25:49.799 --> 00:25:54.079
<v Speaker 2>Swift and who and the other was the ilges Illgiessts Okay,

459
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:58.000
<v Speaker 2>the Swiss and the Iligis were both had very large,

460
00:25:58.160 --> 00:26:03.079
<v Speaker 2>fine homes, and it were persons of substance and wealth.

461
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:06.359
<v Speaker 2>The Swift House was a large, white column mansion that

462
00:26:06.480 --> 00:26:10.359
<v Speaker 2>was broken into. The Ilges's house, which was described as

463
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:14.880
<v Speaker 2>being quote the castle quote vaguely resembled an English country house,

464
00:26:15.160 --> 00:26:18.319
<v Speaker 2>was actually broken into twice. Once was on New Year's

465
00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:22.000
<v Speaker 2>Eve or January thirty first decent I'm sorry, December thirty one,

466
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.240
<v Speaker 2>January first of nineteen seventy seven seventy eight during the night,

467
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.599
<v Speaker 2>and was broken in a second time about a month later.

468
00:26:27.680 --> 00:26:29.839
<v Speaker 2>I believe in the case of the Swift House, the

469
00:26:29.920 --> 00:26:32.640
<v Speaker 2>burglary happened when no one was home, but in the

470
00:26:32.680 --> 00:26:37.480
<v Speaker 2>case of the ils home, the mus Ilgis, who was

471
00:26:37.799 --> 00:26:41.839
<v Speaker 2>elderly and fit the demographic of the strangler's victims, was there,

472
00:26:41.880 --> 00:26:45.279
<v Speaker 2>but also her husband, who was in his eighties and

473
00:26:45.559 --> 00:26:49.000
<v Speaker 2>was medically infirmed, was in another bedroom. And part of

474
00:26:49.000 --> 00:26:51.599
<v Speaker 2>the pattern, as it would turn out later looking at

475
00:26:51.599 --> 00:26:54.799
<v Speaker 2>things retrospectively, was that the strangler would not kill a

476
00:26:54.839 --> 00:26:59.119
<v Speaker 2>woman kill one of his victims unless she was alone

477
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:01.640
<v Speaker 2>in the house. The fact that this woman's husband, miss

478
00:27:01.720 --> 00:27:04.640
<v Speaker 2>Iligs's husband was in a another bedroom of the second floor,

479
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.599
<v Speaker 2>second or third floor of her home, apparently deterred the

480
00:27:07.720 --> 00:27:09.519
<v Speaker 2>strangler from harming her.

481
00:27:09.880 --> 00:27:14.559
<v Speaker 6>Now, while police are investigating, there is a miss Schwab,

482
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.920
<v Speaker 6>another widow. She had installed alarms like many other women,

483
00:27:19.359 --> 00:27:22.759
<v Speaker 6>and that alarm was connected to her next door neighbor.

484
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:26.680
<v Speaker 2>This was This was another situation where the woman survived

485
00:27:26.880 --> 00:27:29.799
<v Speaker 2>the attack of the strangler and she was she she

486
00:27:29.960 --> 00:27:33.000
<v Speaker 2>was quite wealthy. The Schwob I think as Harry pronounce

487
00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:36.119
<v Speaker 2>her name Schwob was ran a large business that she

488
00:27:36.160 --> 00:27:40.400
<v Speaker 2>had inherited from her husband. She lived alone. She was

489
00:27:40.599 --> 00:27:44.920
<v Speaker 2>concerned that she fit the demographics of the strangler's victims,

490
00:27:44.920 --> 00:27:48.400
<v Speaker 2>so she had talked to her next door neighbor, doctor

491
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.599
<v Speaker 2>Fred Burdette, and they had each installed alarms such that

492
00:27:52.839 --> 00:27:55.200
<v Speaker 2>she could press a button at her house and he

493
00:27:55.240 --> 00:27:57.279
<v Speaker 2>could press a button at his house, and then they

494
00:27:57.279 --> 00:27:59.799
<v Speaker 2>would check on each other. Well. It so happened that

495
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.200
<v Speaker 2>had been at least one false alarm, and in the

496
00:28:03.240 --> 00:28:06.160
<v Speaker 2>middle of the night, Dtor Burdett is woken up by

497
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.160
<v Speaker 2>the buzzard ringing, So rather than call the police immediately

498
00:28:09.160 --> 00:28:12.240
<v Speaker 2>because there'd been one false alarm before, he calls me

499
00:28:12.279 --> 00:28:15.519
<v Speaker 2>Schroke next door that she doesn't answer, but and of

500
00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:18.200
<v Speaker 2>course he immediately calls the police. They both enter her

501
00:28:18.240 --> 00:28:21.319
<v Speaker 2>house and it turns out that she's alive and sitting

502
00:28:21.359 --> 00:28:23.880
<v Speaker 2>on the edge of the bed with a stocking wrapped

503
00:28:23.920 --> 00:28:26.799
<v Speaker 2>around her neck. She had been the strangler's next victim,

504
00:28:26.839 --> 00:28:29.319
<v Speaker 2>but had managed to fight him off. And the phone

505
00:28:29.319 --> 00:28:31.960
<v Speaker 2>call when dtor Burdette had called her back to check

506
00:28:32.000 --> 00:28:34.920
<v Speaker 2>on or apparently terrified the stranger and he left and

507
00:28:35.000 --> 00:28:37.319
<v Speaker 2>got away that night. But as it were, he went

508
00:28:37.400 --> 00:28:40.759
<v Speaker 2>on to kill another woman, and there's another victim in

509
00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:43.680
<v Speaker 2>the neighborhood. He simply hid in the bushes until the

510
00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:47.519
<v Speaker 2>coast was clear, and then apparently early that morning, right

511
00:28:47.519 --> 00:28:51.960
<v Speaker 2>before daylight, killed another victim just down the street, Mildred Boram,

512
00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:53.119
<v Speaker 2>Miss Boram right.

513
00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.920
<v Speaker 6>Yes, now, Cad dwell too much on what happens next,

514
00:28:57.960 --> 00:29:02.079
<v Speaker 6>even though this is incredible development, But the Klan steps

515
00:29:02.200 --> 00:29:07.279
<v Speaker 6>up and volunteers to assist the police. Of course, the

516
00:29:07.319 --> 00:29:10.440
<v Speaker 6>police aren't asking for the clan's help, But an even

517
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:15.000
<v Speaker 6>more incredible development happens after from a group called Forces

518
00:29:15.119 --> 00:29:19.559
<v Speaker 6>of Evil. Tell us about both of these bizarre and

519
00:29:19.640 --> 00:29:20.839
<v Speaker 6>dangerous developments.

520
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:23.559
<v Speaker 2>You have to understand that the Klukux Klan, even in

521
00:29:23.599 --> 00:29:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the nineteen seventies, was considered a bunch of evil racists.

522
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:30.440
<v Speaker 2>Nobody seriously supports the Clan in the South, just back

523
00:29:30.680 --> 00:29:33.799
<v Speaker 2>there allegations to the contrary. I mean, the Klan and

524
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:38.359
<v Speaker 2>the Clan is just total outliers. And they since everybody

525
00:29:38.359 --> 00:29:41.279
<v Speaker 2>had sort of quote unquote you end quote the strangler

526
00:29:41.359 --> 00:29:43.400
<v Speaker 2>was said to be black, that they were going to

527
00:29:43.440 --> 00:29:46.799
<v Speaker 2>sort of start doing patrols in the neighborhood, which just

528
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:50.880
<v Speaker 2>horrified everyone, most importantly the police. Not much came of it,

529
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:55.119
<v Speaker 2>but it was just another twist. Perhaps the most interesting

530
00:29:55.160 --> 00:29:59.079
<v Speaker 2>thing was that the police chief in January, after the

531
00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:01.359
<v Speaker 2>first of the year in nineteen seventy eight, began getting

532
00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:05.759
<v Speaker 2>letters from someone who signed himself as the Chairman of

533
00:30:05.839 --> 00:30:09.640
<v Speaker 2>the Forces of Evil. This person sent and I believe

534
00:30:09.720 --> 00:30:12.319
<v Speaker 2>six or seven or eight letters to the police chief.

535
00:30:12.720 --> 00:30:16.680
<v Speaker 2>During the course of this one sided correspondence, the chairman

536
00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:20.599
<v Speaker 2>revealed that this was a white supremacist organization and that

537
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.640
<v Speaker 2>they did not they thought that since the stranger was

538
00:30:23.720 --> 00:30:27.079
<v Speaker 2>black and killing white women, that they, as white supremacists,

539
00:30:27.079 --> 00:30:30.920
<v Speaker 2>were going to kidnap and kill black women. And as

540
00:30:30.960 --> 00:30:36.559
<v Speaker 2>it turned out, two black women were kidnapped and killed. Well.

541
00:30:37.119 --> 00:30:42.359
<v Speaker 2>It so happened that this so called white supremacist organization

542
00:30:42.720 --> 00:30:47.839
<v Speaker 2>was in fact a black male named William Henry Hans,

543
00:30:47.920 --> 00:30:52.160
<v Speaker 2>who was a soldier stationed at Fort Benning. Fort Benning

544
00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.160
<v Speaker 2>is a large military institution that abuts the lower the

545
00:30:56.200 --> 00:31:00.319
<v Speaker 2>southern border of the city of Columbus. He himself off

546
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:05.079
<v Speaker 2>was a serial killer who apparently killed a total of

547
00:31:05.200 --> 00:31:09.759
<v Speaker 2>four women. There were two in Columbus. He was identified

548
00:31:09.880 --> 00:31:14.680
<v Speaker 2>through his own stupidity by using US Army paper stationery,

549
00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:18.759
<v Speaker 2>and his voice was recorded, and eventually someone at Fort

550
00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:23.519
<v Speaker 2>Vinning recognized that he was apprehended. He eventually came to

551
00:31:23.640 --> 00:31:27.079
<v Speaker 2>trial and was executed for the murder of two women

552
00:31:27.119 --> 00:31:31.200
<v Speaker 2>there in Columbus. It was totally bizarre situation that another

553
00:31:31.279 --> 00:31:35.640
<v Speaker 2>serial killer was using the episodes attributed to the stranger

554
00:31:35.799 --> 00:31:39.319
<v Speaker 2>to cover up his own murderous intentions.

555
00:31:39.519 --> 00:31:43.799
<v Speaker 6>Incredible. You write that Mildred Borham was killed February eleventh,

556
00:31:44.160 --> 00:31:48.200
<v Speaker 6>you talk about you write about April twentieth, Janet T. Koefer,

557
00:31:48.400 --> 00:31:52.319
<v Speaker 6>a sixty one year old widowed kindergarten teacher. She doesn't

558
00:31:52.359 --> 00:31:54.640
<v Speaker 6>show up for class. What are some of the same

559
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:56.559
<v Speaker 6>characteristics found there?

560
00:31:56.920 --> 00:32:01.039
<v Speaker 2>She was the one victim who lived a little bit

561
00:32:01.160 --> 00:32:04.920
<v Speaker 2>further away. She was the strangler's so called last victim,

562
00:32:05.240 --> 00:32:09.079
<v Speaker 2>and she lived not too far away, but was not

563
00:32:09.640 --> 00:32:12.599
<v Speaker 2>the first six six victims. First six murder victims lived

564
00:32:12.680 --> 00:32:14.880
<v Speaker 2>within an area where one could walk from one house

565
00:32:14.920 --> 00:32:17.000
<v Speaker 2>to the other in less than ten minutes. Right, this

566
00:32:17.119 --> 00:32:20.920
<v Speaker 2>lady lived perhaps fifteen minutes away, but nearby in the

567
00:32:20.960 --> 00:32:23.799
<v Speaker 2>same general area. I should say. She simply didn't come

568
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:27.400
<v Speaker 2>to work one day. She just when she didn't, someone

569
00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.880
<v Speaker 2>from her school goes by. Notice the screen has been cut.

570
00:32:31.119 --> 00:32:33.799
<v Speaker 2>They the police are called and entry is made to

571
00:32:33.839 --> 00:32:36.240
<v Speaker 2>the house. And again her body was like the others,

572
00:32:36.519 --> 00:32:41.480
<v Speaker 2>the same tragic crime scene with she was strangled in

573
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:45.160
<v Speaker 2>her body position and covered up as the others had been.

574
00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:48.799
<v Speaker 6>There was a chief McClung, and he, as you right,

575
00:32:48.880 --> 00:32:52.559
<v Speaker 6>he paints a dim picture of the investigation. What does

576
00:32:52.599 --> 00:32:54.920
<v Speaker 6>he have to conclude at the end of this in

577
00:32:55.000 --> 00:32:57.240
<v Speaker 6>terms of this dim picture of the investigation?

578
00:32:57.440 --> 00:32:59.759
<v Speaker 2>Well, you have to understand this is think about this

579
00:33:00.079 --> 00:33:03.000
<v Speaker 2>for a period of eight months more or less. You

580
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:09.640
<v Speaker 2>have seven murders, you have burglaries, you have one or

581
00:33:09.720 --> 00:33:15.079
<v Speaker 2>two other attacks Ms. Borum and Ms Miller, You have fingerprints,

582
00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:18.400
<v Speaker 2>you have shoe prints, you have other crime scene evidence,

583
00:33:18.640 --> 00:33:24.400
<v Speaker 2>you have every possible resource locally plus state and federal resources,

584
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:27.599
<v Speaker 2>and you had this guy had managed to elude everything. Gosh,

585
00:33:27.960 --> 00:33:31.720
<v Speaker 2>what kind of a criminal is this? I mean, he's amazing.

586
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:36.400
<v Speaker 2>And despite all as they didn't have a real suspect,

587
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:40.640
<v Speaker 2>there was no one and after the April nineteen seventy

588
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.039
<v Speaker 2>eight murder, the case went cold. There were a lot

589
00:33:44.079 --> 00:33:48.160
<v Speaker 2>of scares, there were a lot of investigation continued, there

590
00:33:48.240 --> 00:33:51.079
<v Speaker 2>was a lot of tips, a lot of people were investigated,

591
00:33:51.119 --> 00:33:55.359
<v Speaker 2>but nothing substentiative. And so as time went forward, well

592
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.000
<v Speaker 2>six months, a year, or two years, it looked like

593
00:33:58.079 --> 00:34:01.039
<v Speaker 2>the strangle had totally disappeared. When never be found. It

594
00:34:01.119 --> 00:34:02.559
<v Speaker 2>was a code case, notsing more.

595
00:34:02.799 --> 00:34:05.240
<v Speaker 6>Let's use this William as an opportunity to stop for

596
00:34:05.240 --> 00:34:07.720
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597
00:34:08.000 --> 00:34:12.199
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598
00:34:12.239 --> 00:34:16.079
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599
00:34:16.079 --> 00:34:20.760
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600
00:34:20.800 --> 00:34:24.360
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601
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:30.159
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602
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603
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604
00:34:37.800 --> 00:34:41.599
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605
00:34:41.679 --> 00:34:46.599
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606
00:34:47.400 --> 00:34:52.800
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607
00:34:52.840 --> 00:34:57.119
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608
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609
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610
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611
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612
00:35:14.000 --> 00:35:17.559
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613
00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:22.599
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614
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615
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616
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617
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618
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619
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620
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:55.960
<v Speaker 6>William we were talking about the case goes cold, But

621
00:35:56.239 --> 00:35:59.480
<v Speaker 6>March twelfth, nineteen eighty nine, we talked about it for

622
00:35:59.559 --> 00:36:03.880
<v Speaker 6>two d series of events. The Bombay Bicycle Club a

623
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:08.199
<v Speaker 6>restaurant in East Columbus. End of the night, a figure

624
00:36:08.239 --> 00:36:12.119
<v Speaker 6>in a ski mask orders everybody out of the at gunpoint,

625
00:36:12.119 --> 00:36:15.519
<v Speaker 6>out of this restaurant. Tell us how it leads to

626
00:36:15.960 --> 00:36:16.800
<v Speaker 6>Carlton Gary.

627
00:36:17.039 --> 00:36:20.000
<v Speaker 2>This is one of the most bizarre tales that you

628
00:36:20.079 --> 00:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>can possibly imagine. It is secuitous and almost unbelievable. As

629
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:30.119
<v Speaker 2>noted in March nineteen eighty four, the police got a

630
00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:34.360
<v Speaker 2>silent alarm from a place called the Bombay Bicycle Club.

631
00:36:34.400 --> 00:36:36.880
<v Speaker 2>It was like four between three and four in the morning.

632
00:36:37.079 --> 00:36:40.199
<v Speaker 2>It was a restaurant that was closing up. The manager

633
00:36:40.199 --> 00:36:42.280
<v Speaker 2>and two employees were walking out in the back door

634
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:44.440
<v Speaker 2>when a fella in a ski mask comes up and

635
00:36:44.440 --> 00:36:46.599
<v Speaker 2>sticks a gun in the manager's ribs and says go

636
00:36:46.679 --> 00:36:49.960
<v Speaker 2>back inside. And the first thing the ski mask robber

637
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:52.320
<v Speaker 2>does is lock them in the liquor cabinet and the

638
00:36:52.320 --> 00:36:55.199
<v Speaker 2>liquor closet there was a large locking room where they

639
00:36:55.280 --> 00:36:58.719
<v Speaker 2>kept their liquor and beer, and so he locks the

640
00:36:58.800 --> 00:37:00.840
<v Speaker 2>three of them in there. On the three people were

641
00:37:00.840 --> 00:37:02.719
<v Speaker 2>scared to death, and the first thing they did was

642
00:37:02.800 --> 00:37:06.159
<v Speaker 2>barricade the door with cases of flicker and beer. And

643
00:37:06.199 --> 00:37:08.679
<v Speaker 2>after a few minutes the fella comes back to the door,

644
00:37:08.920 --> 00:37:11.559
<v Speaker 2>apparently not having found whatever he was looking for, and

645
00:37:11.559 --> 00:37:13.719
<v Speaker 2>demands they opened the door, and he beats on the

646
00:37:13.800 --> 00:37:15.559
<v Speaker 2>door and tries to get in, but they had he

647
00:37:15.639 --> 00:37:18.519
<v Speaker 2>had locked him in that they locked him out so

648
00:37:18.639 --> 00:37:21.000
<v Speaker 2>between After a while he gives up and heads out

649
00:37:21.280 --> 00:37:23.559
<v Speaker 2>the back door. Well just as he's just as he

650
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:26.960
<v Speaker 2>goes out and gets in his car, the police show up.

651
00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.679
<v Speaker 2>The fella named Spanky that was his nickname, Spanky Boy,

652
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:33.320
<v Speaker 2>and a twenty six year old patrolman who is patrolling

653
00:37:33.480 --> 00:37:36.159
<v Speaker 2>who's by himself. He pulls into the parking lot of

654
00:37:36.159 --> 00:37:40.079
<v Speaker 2>the Bombay Bicycle Club and notices a blue nineteen seventy

655
00:37:40.159 --> 00:37:44.360
<v Speaker 2>seven Dodge Charger with its lights off screeching out of

656
00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:46.840
<v Speaker 2>the parking lot at a high rate of speed, So

657
00:37:46.920 --> 00:37:50.079
<v Speaker 2>he of course flips on his blue lights and gives chase.

658
00:37:50.320 --> 00:37:53.239
<v Speaker 2>They go up Auburn Avenue, which is of a good

659
00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:56.400
<v Speaker 2>street there for about three quarters of a mile and

660
00:37:56.440 --> 00:37:58.880
<v Speaker 2>then it sort of dead ends into edge. I believe

661
00:37:58.880 --> 00:38:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the name is Edgewood Row which was a residential street.

662
00:38:02.280 --> 00:38:05.320
<v Speaker 2>The charger took a sharp left, but at a high

663
00:38:05.400 --> 00:38:08.599
<v Speaker 2>rate of speed lost it. He crashes into several cars

664
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:12.679
<v Speaker 2>and ends up in someone jarred with this vehiclerect Bowen

665
00:38:13.119 --> 00:38:16.320
<v Speaker 2>stops his patrol car and with a flashlight in one

666
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:18.960
<v Speaker 2>hand and as radio and his other goes up and

667
00:38:19.079 --> 00:38:22.000
<v Speaker 2>starts kind of looks in the driver's side window there

668
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:24.760
<v Speaker 2>and is shot twice in the forehead and he died

669
00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:28.440
<v Speaker 2>shortly thereafter. He did not draw his weapon well. He

670
00:38:28.519 --> 00:38:31.639
<v Speaker 2>had of course called the police to back him up,

671
00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:36.199
<v Speaker 2>and very shortly thereafter the of the patrolman arrived, but

672
00:38:36.360 --> 00:38:39.960
<v Speaker 2>by that time the driver of this Dodge charger had left.

673
00:38:40.199 --> 00:38:43.360
<v Speaker 2>The commotion had attracted someone and a witness there that

674
00:38:43.400 --> 00:38:45.480
<v Speaker 2>lived in one of the houses had seen a white

675
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:48.679
<v Speaker 2>male leave the car and head in one direction, and

676
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:51.119
<v Speaker 2>as it turned out, there was a large creek named

677
00:38:51.159 --> 00:38:56.400
<v Speaker 2>Lindsey Creek, sort of urban waterway, oversized, not big enough

678
00:38:56.400 --> 00:38:58.840
<v Speaker 2>for Beer river, but bigger than a small little branch.

679
00:38:59.360 --> 00:39:03.159
<v Speaker 2>He apparently had followed that up the creek well. Obviously,

680
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:07.079
<v Speaker 2>with a dead patrolman and this type of crime, the

681
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:11.239
<v Speaker 2>police were everywhere, and the investigating offers soon discovered that

682
00:39:11.320 --> 00:39:14.199
<v Speaker 2>the car that had wrecked belonged to the girlfriend of

683
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:17.800
<v Speaker 2>a guy named Lonnie Botts. Botts she said that her

684
00:39:17.840 --> 00:39:20.519
<v Speaker 2>boyfriend had had the car that night, so he became

685
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:23.800
<v Speaker 2>the prime suspect. The police go to his mother's house

686
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:26.920
<v Speaker 2>where he nominally lived. She denied knowing much about it,

687
00:39:26.960 --> 00:39:31.079
<v Speaker 2>but in the hamper they found some soaking wet clothes

688
00:39:31.400 --> 00:39:33.480
<v Speaker 2>and thought, well, you know, he was at least here,

689
00:39:33.519 --> 00:39:35.880
<v Speaker 2>and he's somewhere. And also as part of that search

690
00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:40.239
<v Speaker 2>they discovered a box of for a Ruger twenty two

691
00:39:40.320 --> 00:39:44.400
<v Speaker 2>caliber automatic pistol. Right now, two things in looking at

692
00:39:44.400 --> 00:39:48.840
<v Speaker 2>the car. There were two spent cottriages found in the car,

693
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:54.079
<v Speaker 2>presumably indicating that Patrolman Bowen was killed without automatic pistol.

694
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:59.079
<v Speaker 2>And these were of these were consistent with the ones

695
00:39:59.159 --> 00:40:02.960
<v Speaker 2>founded the home of Lonnie bots and it was thought

696
00:40:03.000 --> 00:40:06.480
<v Speaker 2>that they should be looking for a Ruger pistol. Well,

697
00:40:06.480 --> 00:40:09.119
<v Speaker 2>it occurred to someone that during the Strangler's reign of

698
00:40:09.199 --> 00:40:11.840
<v Speaker 2>terror some six years earlier are actually longer than that,

699
00:40:12.039 --> 00:40:15.360
<v Speaker 2>there had been a burglary at Cali East House where

700
00:40:15.480 --> 00:40:18.519
<v Speaker 2>Ruger Pistol had an automatic Ruger pistol had been stolen,

701
00:40:18.679 --> 00:40:21.519
<v Speaker 2>so sort of shortened what is long story. The search

702
00:40:21.599 --> 00:40:25.199
<v Speaker 2>began for this ruger pistol, and Mike Seller, who was

703
00:40:25.239 --> 00:40:29.280
<v Speaker 2>one of the patrolmen investigating one of the officers rather investigating,

704
00:40:29.400 --> 00:40:32.039
<v Speaker 2>put out an a bullet into every police force in

705
00:40:32.079 --> 00:40:36.320
<v Speaker 2>the nation. Very promptly. He gets something back from the Lansing, Michigan,

706
00:40:36.440 --> 00:40:38.960
<v Speaker 2>the state capitol of Michigan. At the time, Michigan was

707
00:40:39.000 --> 00:40:42.360
<v Speaker 2>one of three states that required the registration of pistols.

708
00:40:42.599 --> 00:40:48.280
<v Speaker 2>They said that someone in Kalamazoo, Michigan, had registered a

709
00:40:48.400 --> 00:40:52.320
<v Speaker 2>gun with the same serial number. They approached this gentleman

710
00:40:52.400 --> 00:40:55.159
<v Speaker 2>who said that he had gotten this from his mother

711
00:40:55.800 --> 00:41:00.239
<v Speaker 2>and she lived in Gary, Indiana. So they go to Gary, Indiana,

712
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:02.840
<v Speaker 2>and she said that she had gotten the pistol from

713
00:41:02.840 --> 00:41:05.000
<v Speaker 2>her brother because they had been a break in and

714
00:41:05.079 --> 00:41:09.440
<v Speaker 2>she felt like she needed some protection. And yes, lo

715
00:41:09.559 --> 00:41:13.800
<v Speaker 2>and behold, the brother lived in Phoenix City, Alabama. And

716
00:41:13.800 --> 00:41:16.599
<v Speaker 2>for people that don't know the anatomy of Georgia and Alabama,

717
00:41:16.639 --> 00:41:19.400
<v Speaker 2>and Phoenix City is directly across the river from Columbus.

718
00:41:19.440 --> 00:41:21.920
<v Speaker 2>In other word, this led back home to this pistol

719
00:41:21.960 --> 00:41:26.239
<v Speaker 2>that had been stolen in October nineteen seventy seven. Right,

720
00:41:26.360 --> 00:41:29.679
<v Speaker 2>So they approached the man that from whom she assumed

721
00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:33.039
<v Speaker 2>the lady got the pistol. His name was Jim Gary.

722
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:34.840
<v Speaker 2>They asked him where to get it. He said he

723
00:41:34.880 --> 00:41:39.000
<v Speaker 2>got it from his nephew of melananamed Carlton Gary. They said, well,

724
00:41:39.000 --> 00:41:40.960
<v Speaker 2>where's Carton and he says he's in one of them

725
00:41:41.159 --> 00:41:43.719
<v Speaker 2>South Carolina prisons, and so they said, but he's been

726
00:41:43.719 --> 00:41:46.800
<v Speaker 2>out on paroles. So the police started investigating and as

727
00:41:46.800 --> 00:41:49.760
<v Speaker 2>it turned out, he had not been released from prison.

728
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:52.519
<v Speaker 2>That One of the things that seemed to stop the

729
00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:56.079
<v Speaker 2>wrangle as Reign of Terror back in seventy eight was

730
00:41:56.119 --> 00:41:59.280
<v Speaker 2>the fact that Carlton Gary had been robbing restaurants in

731
00:41:59.320 --> 00:42:02.360
<v Speaker 2>South Carolina, had become known as the Steakhouse bandit, and

732
00:42:02.400 --> 00:42:05.360
<v Speaker 2>had been sentenced to prison. So much of the enterbeing time,

733
00:42:05.440 --> 00:42:08.920
<v Speaker 2>Carlton Gary had been in prison in South Carolina. After

734
00:42:08.960 --> 00:42:11.280
<v Speaker 2>a few years in prison, he had convinced people there

735
00:42:11.360 --> 00:42:14.000
<v Speaker 2>that he had reformed and he had quote unquote seen

736
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:16.159
<v Speaker 2>the light end quote. So he was moved from a

737
00:42:16.199 --> 00:42:19.400
<v Speaker 2>maximum security prison and made a trustee at another low

738
00:42:19.440 --> 00:42:22.159
<v Speaker 2>security system. He's prison, I'm sorry. He stayed there for

739
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:24.880
<v Speaker 2>two weeks and walked, and he'd come back to Columbus,

740
00:42:24.920 --> 00:42:27.119
<v Speaker 2>and he was not out on parole. He was free,

741
00:42:27.199 --> 00:42:30.639
<v Speaker 2>and he was in the city of Columbus at that time. So,

742
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:34.960
<v Speaker 2>as it would turn out, Carlton Gary had actually been

743
00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.719
<v Speaker 2>interviewed several times by the police. Yes, you have to

744
00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:43.760
<v Speaker 2>remember this was in the days before extensive use of

745
00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:46.840
<v Speaker 2>computers and so forth, and some he carried no ID

746
00:42:47.239 --> 00:42:52.679
<v Speaker 2>and gave police a spurious spurreus and different name every

747
00:42:52.679 --> 00:42:54.639
<v Speaker 2>time he was picked up. In fact, he had been

748
00:42:54.760 --> 00:43:01.440
<v Speaker 2>arrested earlier in April smoking marijuana and head there's a

749
00:43:01.639 --> 00:43:04.440
<v Speaker 2>mug shot in the Columbus police files which I included

750
00:43:04.440 --> 00:43:06.880
<v Speaker 2>in the book. Well, he had been arrested actually under

751
00:43:06.920 --> 00:43:11.159
<v Speaker 2>a different name and released on five hundred dollars cash bond.

752
00:43:11.559 --> 00:43:14.719
<v Speaker 2>So he was there and that is when they finally

753
00:43:14.800 --> 00:43:17.360
<v Speaker 2>knew the man's name and they started searching. That's a

754
00:43:17.360 --> 00:43:18.000
<v Speaker 2>long story.

755
00:43:18.280 --> 00:43:21.599
<v Speaker 6>Yeah, you talk about me the nineteen eighty four and

756
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:25.079
<v Speaker 6>his arrest and some major characters that come into play

757
00:43:25.480 --> 00:43:29.000
<v Speaker 6>and question him or there for the questioning Born Rowe

758
00:43:29.320 --> 00:43:34.880
<v Speaker 6>detective sellers Miller and Warren talk about they think he's

759
00:43:35.119 --> 00:43:38.280
<v Speaker 6>pretty bright guy. He's got a one hundred and fourteen IQ.

760
00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:40.960
<v Speaker 6>I believe how do they proceed with them and what

761
00:43:41.000 --> 00:43:44.320
<v Speaker 6>are the results of question? Does he ask for a lawyer?

762
00:43:44.440 --> 00:43:45.079
<v Speaker 6>What happens?

763
00:43:45.320 --> 00:43:47.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, you have to have to back up and look

764
00:43:47.519 --> 00:43:49.519
<v Speaker 2>at this man's entire history. First of all, let me

765
00:43:49.559 --> 00:43:51.760
<v Speaker 2>say that the police were looking for him in Columbus,

766
00:43:51.760 --> 00:43:53.880
<v Speaker 2>but actually he at the time where he was in Albany, Georgia.

767
00:43:53.960 --> 00:43:56.599
<v Speaker 2>He was down there dealing drugs and he was at

768
00:43:56.599 --> 00:43:59.760
<v Speaker 2>a holiday inn. The all Many police arrested him on

769
00:43:59.760 --> 00:44:02.519
<v Speaker 2>the on the night I believe my second or third

770
00:44:03.079 --> 00:44:06.960
<v Speaker 2>and he was police from Columbus came down, picked him up,

771
00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:10.880
<v Speaker 2>and we're taking him back to Columbus from Albany. Now,

772
00:44:11.320 --> 00:44:14.599
<v Speaker 2>Gary said, what have I been arrested for? Well, technically

773
00:44:14.679 --> 00:44:18.519
<v Speaker 2>he was arrested because of the stealing the pistol in

774
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:21.760
<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy seven. That was what his arrest warrants said.

775
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:24.079
<v Speaker 2>But the police, they didn't try to question him. They

776
00:44:24.119 --> 00:44:27.320
<v Speaker 2>didn't do anything untoward, particularly after the Jerome Levis case.

777
00:44:27.559 --> 00:44:32.400
<v Speaker 2>But Gary had a long history of trying to blame

778
00:44:32.840 --> 00:44:36.960
<v Speaker 2>things on other people. Whenever he was called he would say, well,

779
00:44:37.039 --> 00:44:38.880
<v Speaker 2>I was there, but I didn't do it, so and

780
00:44:38.920 --> 00:44:42.119
<v Speaker 2>so did it. And there was a huge pattern of

781
00:44:42.159 --> 00:44:44.599
<v Speaker 2>this came into came to playing his trial. So he

782
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:47.559
<v Speaker 2>started talking to the police and says they ask him, well,

783
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:49.920
<v Speaker 2>you need an attorney. He says, no, I don't need an attorney.

784
00:44:49.880 --> 00:44:51.920
<v Speaker 2>I'm just going to tell you the truth. And so

785
00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:55.320
<v Speaker 2>when he starts telling the truth, he starts spinning tales,

786
00:44:55.440 --> 00:45:00.199
<v Speaker 2>trying to to defer blame to someone else. I think

787
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:03.840
<v Speaker 2>Gary had no idea what evidence police were holding, where

788
00:45:03.880 --> 00:45:06.320
<v Speaker 2>his fingerprints may or may not have been, or how

789
00:45:06.400 --> 00:45:09.000
<v Speaker 2>much they had own him. So they got back to

790
00:45:09.039 --> 00:45:12.159
<v Speaker 2>Columbus and he insisted on taking the police out and

791
00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:14.920
<v Speaker 2>showing them things. And he said, yeah, I was there

792
00:45:15.000 --> 00:45:19.239
<v Speaker 2>in that house, but I was with someone who actually

793
00:45:19.559 --> 00:45:24.840
<v Speaker 2>harmed the old ladies. His name was Malvin Alamichael Cridenden.

794
00:45:25.280 --> 00:45:28.119
<v Speaker 2>And Mike Sellers, who was one of the officers there, said,

795
00:45:28.280 --> 00:45:30.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, he might have called the guy Joe Blow

796
00:45:30.480 --> 00:45:34.760
<v Speaker 2>or John Smith, but Malvin Alamichael Cridenden, he said, it's

797
00:45:34.800 --> 00:45:38.639
<v Speaker 2>a very realistic sounding name. And indeed, Malvin Criddenden was

798
00:45:38.679 --> 00:45:42.559
<v Speaker 2>a friend of Carlton Gary's, and he was trying to

799
00:45:42.639 --> 00:45:44.519
<v Speaker 2>dump in on his friend. And during the course of

800
00:45:44.559 --> 00:45:47.719
<v Speaker 2>writing around that evening he showed them the houses of

801
00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:50.840
<v Speaker 2>six of the seven murder victims. So he obviously had

802
00:45:50.880 --> 00:45:53.159
<v Speaker 2>a lot of knowledge, and he told police things that

803
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:55.400
<v Speaker 2>no one else would have known that even the police

804
00:45:55.400 --> 00:45:58.000
<v Speaker 2>had known. In some cases been describing the crime scenes.

805
00:45:58.039 --> 00:46:00.239
<v Speaker 2>But his idea was, yeah, I was there, you know,

806
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:02.480
<v Speaker 2>in case you got my fingerprints, that that accounts for that.

807
00:46:02.559 --> 00:46:04.960
<v Speaker 2>But I didn't do it. Someone else did it, and

808
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:09.320
<v Speaker 2>that became an issue later that would sort of muddy

809
00:46:09.360 --> 00:46:12.880
<v Speaker 2>the water during his trial. But Crendon actually testified later.

810
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:17.840
<v Speaker 6>You write that eventually the grand jury invites indites him

811
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:21.800
<v Speaker 6>Gary in the Three Stocking Stranglers, and there's a photo

812
00:46:21.880 --> 00:46:23.079
<v Speaker 6>of him smiling.

813
00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:23.480
<v Speaker 3>Right.

814
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:25.760
<v Speaker 6>Let's just as an opportunity to stop for a second

815
00:46:25.800 --> 00:46:27.119
<v Speaker 6>for these messages.

816
00:46:27.280 --> 00:46:30.559
<v Speaker 1>Lucky Land casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've

817
00:46:30.559 --> 00:46:31.280
<v Speaker 1>gotten lucky?

818
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.320
<v Speaker 4>Lucky? In line at the Delhi I guess ah, in

819
00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:36.400
<v Speaker 4>my dentist's office more than once.

820
00:46:36.480 --> 00:46:38.079
<v Speaker 1>Actually do I have to say?

821
00:46:38.280 --> 00:46:38.719
<v Speaker 3>Yes? You do?

822
00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.440
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823
00:46:41.639 --> 00:46:45.119
<v Speaker 1>Really yes, excuse me, what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?

824
00:46:45.280 --> 00:46:47.840
<v Speaker 4>I never win? And tell well, there you have it.

825
00:46:47.880 --> 00:46:50.719
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826
00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:52.360
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827
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:55.000
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828
00:46:55.039 --> 00:46:56.519
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829
00:46:56.360 --> 00:47:00.119
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830
00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:02.079
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831
00:47:02.119 --> 00:47:03.639
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832
00:47:03.800 --> 00:47:06.360
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833
00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:09.239
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834
00:47:10.960 --> 00:47:12.559
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835
00:47:12.639 --> 00:47:15.199
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836
00:47:15.280 --> 00:47:18.360
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837
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838
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<v Speaker 4>Chumpacasino dot com.

839
00:47:23.800 --> 00:47:26.360
<v Speaker 7>Nobea's necessarily we're promitted by monem plus turns and condition

840
00:47:26.360 --> 00:47:27.440
<v Speaker 7>to place and what's every details?

841
00:47:28.119 --> 00:47:30.880
<v Speaker 6>Now, as I mentioned, he's liking the attention. You righte

842
00:47:30.880 --> 00:47:34.880
<v Speaker 6>that he's liking the attention, and he is a really

843
00:47:34.880 --> 00:47:38.000
<v Speaker 6>good suspect in the three Stocking stranglings by virtue of

844
00:47:38.039 --> 00:47:43.400
<v Speaker 6>what he has said. Now enters his defense team and

845
00:47:44.239 --> 00:47:46.079
<v Speaker 6>what they want to do with this case, what this

846
00:47:46.199 --> 00:47:50.239
<v Speaker 6>case represents to them. Let's fast forward to the attempt

847
00:47:50.239 --> 00:47:51.719
<v Speaker 6>at bringing him to trial.

848
00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:54.679
<v Speaker 2>Gary was arrested one die in and died is the

849
00:47:54.760 --> 00:47:58.360
<v Speaker 2>next day in May nineteen ninety four, and it was

850
00:47:58.400 --> 00:48:01.960
<v Speaker 2>thought that his trial would proceed in the near future

851
00:48:02.239 --> 00:48:04.599
<v Speaker 2>at that point, right, But as it turned out, there

852
00:48:04.639 --> 00:48:09.719
<v Speaker 2>were multiple delays on the part of his defense attorneys.

853
00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:13.840
<v Speaker 2>He had several defense attorneys. This was a complicated bit

854
00:48:13.880 --> 00:48:16.639
<v Speaker 2>of taiale. But make a long story short, a guy

855
00:48:16.760 --> 00:48:20.360
<v Speaker 2>named Bud Seamen ended up doing being his primary defense

856
00:48:20.400 --> 00:48:24.000
<v Speaker 2>attorney during the course of his trial, which would take place.

857
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:26.320
<v Speaker 2>As I said in August nineteen eighty six, there were

858
00:48:26.320 --> 00:48:28.920
<v Speaker 2>a number of motions, a number of efforts to get

859
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:34.920
<v Speaker 2>evidence thrown out. The allegations of the defense team was

860
00:48:35.119 --> 00:48:38.599
<v Speaker 2>basically that number one, he was innocent. Number two, he

861
00:48:38.719 --> 00:48:41.519
<v Speaker 2>was being mistreated by the police. Number three he was

862
00:48:41.599 --> 00:48:44.159
<v Speaker 2>profiled because he was black and so forth. And so

863
00:48:44.800 --> 00:48:50.320
<v Speaker 2>I think the real situation was that the defense team

864
00:48:50.440 --> 00:48:53.199
<v Speaker 2>knew that prosecution had a good case and they were

865
00:48:53.199 --> 00:48:56.920
<v Speaker 2>doing anything they could do in order to lessen the blow.

866
00:48:57.039 --> 00:48:59.920
<v Speaker 2>There's nothing wrong with the defense attorneys, that's their job,

867
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:03.199
<v Speaker 2>but it certainly put off on his trial for more

868
00:49:03.239 --> 00:49:06.760
<v Speaker 2>than two years after his arrest. I should say, I

869
00:49:06.760 --> 00:49:10.400
<v Speaker 2>should comment that he was indicted only on three of

870
00:49:10.440 --> 00:49:14.320
<v Speaker 2>the seven murders attributed to the stranger I asked Bill Smith,

871
00:49:14.360 --> 00:49:19.039
<v Speaker 2>who was the prosecuting attorney, why he was indicted only

872
00:49:19.079 --> 00:49:23.239
<v Speaker 2>on three of the seven cases, and the response, appropriately

873
00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:26.320
<v Speaker 2>was they were the strongest cases we have and how

874
00:49:26.320 --> 00:49:28.519
<v Speaker 2>many times do you need to convict someone of a

875
00:49:28.559 --> 00:49:29.320
<v Speaker 2>capital crime?

876
00:49:29.599 --> 00:49:32.280
<v Speaker 6>You were talking about the trial seemingly going to go

877
00:49:32.360 --> 00:49:35.800
<v Speaker 6>to be in February eighty six, but a couple of

878
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:40.239
<v Speaker 6>months before December twenty ninth, what do the jailers discover

879
00:49:40.639 --> 00:49:42.039
<v Speaker 6>about Carlton Gary.

880
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:44.360
<v Speaker 2>Gary tried to escape. He had cut a hole in

881
00:49:44.440 --> 00:49:47.320
<v Speaker 2>the wall of his cell and had was hoped to

882
00:49:47.320 --> 00:49:50.480
<v Speaker 2>get out. He had a history of escape from In fact,

883
00:49:50.599 --> 00:49:53.239
<v Speaker 2>he had escaped from prison in New York to get

884
00:49:53.280 --> 00:49:57.400
<v Speaker 2>back to Georgia that started the Strangler's murders, and had

885
00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:02.519
<v Speaker 2>other similar attempts of escaping. And so there were a

886
00:50:02.599 --> 00:50:05.360
<v Speaker 2>number of things that were done to delay or obstacate

887
00:50:05.719 --> 00:50:07.920
<v Speaker 2>the case. One was there was whether or not he

888
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:12.559
<v Speaker 2>should have a mental status exam. He acted out a

889
00:50:12.559 --> 00:50:14.519
<v Speaker 2>little bit I think as a bress word and I'm

890
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:17.280
<v Speaker 2>trying to be objective about this, as that he might

891
00:50:17.360 --> 00:50:21.320
<v Speaker 2>not be mentally fit. They sent him to the State Hospital,

892
00:50:21.360 --> 00:50:23.960
<v Speaker 2>Central State Hospital in Milligeville, and when he was there,

893
00:50:24.079 --> 00:50:27.000
<v Speaker 2>he apparently refused to cooperate, and so the idea that

894
00:50:27.039 --> 00:50:29.880
<v Speaker 2>he might somehow be mentally impaired was dropped. That was

895
00:50:29.880 --> 00:50:33.360
<v Speaker 2>not there were other issues the defense still aged. But

896
00:50:33.440 --> 00:50:39.039
<v Speaker 2>he should be understood that his appeals, based on the

897
00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:44.320
<v Speaker 2>vast majority of the motions made by defense attorneys, ran

898
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:49.079
<v Speaker 2>the entire gamut of the American judicial system, from local

899
00:50:49.159 --> 00:50:51.760
<v Speaker 2>to the U. Supreme Court on a total of four

900
00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:52.960
<v Speaker 2>separate occasions.

901
00:50:53.679 --> 00:50:56.599
<v Speaker 6>And also what you talk about, it's not so uncommon,

902
00:50:56.639 --> 00:51:01.079
<v Speaker 6>but this was unrelenting and real concerted at by these attorneys.

903
00:51:01.119 --> 00:51:03.320
<v Speaker 6>They didn't believe in the death penalty. And that's what

904
00:51:03.360 --> 00:51:07.800
<v Speaker 6>this case would potentially be, is that that they did

905
00:51:08.239 --> 00:51:12.599
<v Speaker 6>a lot of filing motions. They did everything in their

906
00:51:12.639 --> 00:51:15.199
<v Speaker 6>in their power to be able to file motions, to

907
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:17.920
<v Speaker 6>be able to delay this case as long as possible,

908
00:51:18.159 --> 00:51:21.360
<v Speaker 6>and to try to have each judge and we went,

909
00:51:21.440 --> 00:51:24.280
<v Speaker 6>having gone into this recused themselves from the case.

910
00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:27.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know, I think for most people that are

911
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:30.679
<v Speaker 2>not attorneys, and I'm not an attorney. If you think

912
00:51:30.719 --> 00:51:34.880
<v Speaker 2>about it, you have someone who is a prosecuting attorney

913
00:51:34.920 --> 00:51:39.039
<v Speaker 2>whose whose job and goal is to produce justice, that

914
00:51:39.199 --> 00:51:43.159
<v Speaker 2>is to bring criminals to whatever the state finds is

915
00:51:43.199 --> 00:51:46.519
<v Speaker 2>appropriate for them. And you have other people called defense

916
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:49.800
<v Speaker 2>attorneys whose job is to stop that process. They will

917
00:51:50.159 --> 00:51:54.719
<v Speaker 2>we speak of legal technicalities, and we speak of things

918
00:51:54.760 --> 00:51:57.800
<v Speaker 2>that were not done correctly by by one side of

919
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:01.360
<v Speaker 2>the case or the other. The in the book, I say,

920
00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:05.320
<v Speaker 2>the old adage of justice delayed is justice denied. I

921
00:52:05.360 --> 00:52:10.079
<v Speaker 2>think that's a common legal adage, but it's the exact

922
00:52:10.119 --> 00:52:12.960
<v Speaker 2>opposite of what happens if it looks like your client,

923
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:14.800
<v Speaker 2>if you're a defense attorney and you're a client has

924
00:52:14.840 --> 00:52:17.320
<v Speaker 2>a pretty bad case against him, and you want to

925
00:52:17.360 --> 00:52:19.239
<v Speaker 2>put things off as long as you can. And in

926
00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:22.639
<v Speaker 2>some ways it was successful. In fact, most of many

927
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.800
<v Speaker 2>of the people who would have testified a trial if

928
00:52:25.800 --> 00:52:29.360
<v Speaker 2>it had taken place shortly after the murders were dead

929
00:52:29.400 --> 00:52:32.800
<v Speaker 2>by the time these during the thirty two odd years

930
00:52:32.920 --> 00:52:37.480
<v Speaker 2>of after this man's eventual trial and appeals that he had,

931
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:41.199
<v Speaker 2>so in other words, evidence gets older and older people's

932
00:52:41.239 --> 00:52:44.840
<v Speaker 2>memories fades, the importance of the case seems less to jurors,

933
00:52:44.920 --> 00:52:47.440
<v Speaker 2>and so forth, and soon it's what defense attorneys do.

934
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:51.679
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely so, despite their efforts, eventually tell us how long

935
00:52:51.719 --> 00:52:55.800
<v Speaker 6>it takes to eventually get to trial date. Some of

936
00:52:55.880 --> 00:52:59.920
<v Speaker 6>the features at trial, and you say that the defense

937
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:03.159
<v Speaker 6>didn't have much of a presentation, not very long in

938
00:53:03.159 --> 00:53:07.000
<v Speaker 6>comparison to the prosecution. Tell us about some of the

939
00:53:07.039 --> 00:53:10.400
<v Speaker 6>goings on before we talk about what happens the verdict

940
00:53:10.480 --> 00:53:11.199
<v Speaker 6>in that trial.

941
00:53:11.480 --> 00:53:16.159
<v Speaker 2>The trial eventually took place in August of nineteen eighty six,

942
00:53:16.320 --> 00:53:20.119
<v Speaker 2>and during during that period of time it lasted approximate

943
00:53:20.159 --> 00:53:23.679
<v Speaker 2>a month, including jury selection. The trial had been moved

944
00:53:24.119 --> 00:53:28.800
<v Speaker 2>from Columbus Muscogee County to a nearby county. I'm sorry

945
00:53:29.679 --> 00:53:32.480
<v Speaker 2>the trial the jurors had been chosen from a nearby

946
00:53:32.559 --> 00:53:36.920
<v Speaker 2>county because of the possible issue of bias and the

947
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:40.440
<v Speaker 2>news media in Columbus, so people were brought in from

948
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:43.599
<v Speaker 2>another county to hear the case. In Columbus, the trial

949
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:49.480
<v Speaker 2>was in many ways over There was overwhelming of evidence,

950
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:54.519
<v Speaker 2>circumstantial evidence and physical evidence against Gary, and much of

951
00:53:54.559 --> 00:53:58.760
<v Speaker 2>the defense's case rested on asking someone to prove a

952
00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:01.760
<v Speaker 2>negative and by that question is how do you know

953
00:54:01.880 --> 00:54:04.639
<v Speaker 2>this this didn't happen, And if that had happened, then

954
00:54:04.679 --> 00:54:07.360
<v Speaker 2>maybe there's another killer that we don't know about her,

955
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:10.480
<v Speaker 2>maybe this or maybe that. But the case against Gary

956
00:54:10.679 --> 00:54:14.960
<v Speaker 2>was quite strong based on circumstantial and physical evidence, and

957
00:54:15.239 --> 00:54:19.079
<v Speaker 2>essentially nothing the defense said really changed many people's minds

958
00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:19.480
<v Speaker 2>about it.

959
00:54:19.559 --> 00:54:23.320
<v Speaker 6>Gertrude Miller was one of the key witnesses at this

960
00:54:23.440 --> 00:54:26.719
<v Speaker 6>trial as well, and you talk about the quick deliberation

961
00:54:27.320 --> 00:54:28.280
<v Speaker 6>at the end of this.

962
00:54:28.920 --> 00:54:33.519
<v Speaker 2>Mss Miller was one of the witnesses who identified Gary.

963
00:54:34.199 --> 00:54:38.119
<v Speaker 2>Would there was another lady who had also been living

964
00:54:38.199 --> 00:54:42.840
<v Speaker 2>in the neighborhood who identified Gary, And I think you

965
00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.280
<v Speaker 2>need to say that these were pretty definitive identifications in court.

966
00:54:47.360 --> 00:54:50.320
<v Speaker 2>But at the same time, the fact that eyewitness identifications

967
00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:54.840
<v Speaker 2>are notoriously suspect, although in Miss Miller's case she had

968
00:54:54.880 --> 00:54:58.000
<v Speaker 2>seen him close up and personal, as it were, the

969
00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:03.400
<v Speaker 2>case eventually reached the jew the defense in the In

970
00:55:03.480 --> 00:55:08.599
<v Speaker 2>the closing arguments, the defense tried to say that perhaps

971
00:55:08.639 --> 00:55:12.199
<v Speaker 2>there had been police mouth mouthfeaslens, that perhaps there was

972
00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:15.880
<v Speaker 2>another killer that we didn't know about, that the police

973
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:20.000
<v Speaker 2>had not focused on. Jerome Levas, the unfortunate black man

974
00:55:20.159 --> 00:55:23.119
<v Speaker 2>who was accused of the killings, was also was brought

975
00:55:23.119 --> 00:55:26.639
<v Speaker 2>to trial, but his testimony was not particularly important in

976
00:55:26.639 --> 00:55:29.440
<v Speaker 2>one way or the other opinion, and after and after

977
00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:32.239
<v Speaker 2>a while, it didn't take. It took the jury about

978
00:55:32.280 --> 00:55:35.559
<v Speaker 2>one hour to convict him of all three murders and

979
00:55:35.719 --> 00:55:39.119
<v Speaker 2>rapes and burglaries with which he was charged. Now I

980
00:55:39.119 --> 00:55:43.239
<v Speaker 2>should say that Georgia and the penalty phase of a

981
00:55:43.360 --> 00:55:47.760
<v Speaker 2>capital a capital murder trial is separate. That is to say,

982
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:52.920
<v Speaker 2>the jury makes the decision guilty versus not guilty. If

983
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:55.719
<v Speaker 2>it is a guilty verdict, and if he and if

984
00:55:55.840 --> 00:55:59.480
<v Speaker 2>the state is seeking the death penalty, then a separate

985
00:56:00.159 --> 00:56:03.159
<v Speaker 2>trial with the same jurors is held. And then this

986
00:56:03.239 --> 00:56:08.239
<v Speaker 2>is when both sides can produce mitigating factors, mitigating factors

987
00:56:08.280 --> 00:56:10.639
<v Speaker 2>and so forth. And so I know that a sense

988
00:56:10.719 --> 00:56:16.400
<v Speaker 2>in this case referred to killing killing Gary rather than

989
00:56:16.440 --> 00:56:18.920
<v Speaker 2>simply putting him to death. I think the use of

990
00:56:19.079 --> 00:56:22.159
<v Speaker 2>words and the trial transcript is absolutely fascinating, and this

991
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:24.320
<v Speaker 2>is a bit of an a side. In total, there

992
00:56:24.320 --> 00:56:27.760
<v Speaker 2>were perhaps twenty thousand pages of trial transcript, and reading

993
00:56:27.760 --> 00:56:30.679
<v Speaker 2>trial transcript is very much like reading a script for play.

994
00:56:30.760 --> 00:56:33.239
<v Speaker 2>You know, you just you read the words. But I

995
00:56:33.320 --> 00:56:35.440
<v Speaker 2>was fortunate enough to have a video of the trial,

996
00:56:35.480 --> 00:56:37.800
<v Speaker 2>so I would read a dramatic section of the trial

997
00:56:37.840 --> 00:56:39.960
<v Speaker 2>transcript and then I would turn on the video and

998
00:56:40.039 --> 00:56:42.880
<v Speaker 2>watch it. That totally changed the experience. You know, you

999
00:56:43.000 --> 00:56:45.480
<v Speaker 2>saw what people were saying, and you felt the emotion

1000
00:56:45.599 --> 00:56:46.280
<v Speaker 2>and their voice.

1001
00:56:46.679 --> 00:56:48.800
<v Speaker 6>What we didn't talk about is in the trial that

1002
00:56:48.960 --> 00:56:53.239
<v Speaker 6>the what was deemed dismissible was similar behavior, all right,

1003
00:56:53.320 --> 00:56:58.119
<v Speaker 6>similar crimes in other jurisdictions, and so that was allowed

1004
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:03.679
<v Speaker 6>to be read in and improved prior acts of burglary

1005
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:06.119
<v Speaker 6>and rape and assault.

1006
00:57:06.239 --> 00:57:09.119
<v Speaker 2>Well, explain that a little bit back off and not

1007
00:57:09.159 --> 00:57:11.679
<v Speaker 2>talking about Gary, but talking about the concept in general.

1008
00:57:11.960 --> 00:57:14.400
<v Speaker 2>Let's just say, for example, that someone is arrested for

1009
00:57:15.079 --> 00:57:19.039
<v Speaker 2>own trial for murder, and if the state were to

1010
00:57:19.079 --> 00:57:20.519
<v Speaker 2>come in and say, well, you know, this is a

1011
00:57:20.559 --> 00:57:23.800
<v Speaker 2>bad person anyway. You know, he's killed people in the

1012
00:57:23.840 --> 00:57:27.199
<v Speaker 2>past and gotten away with it, and he's stolen, he's

1013
00:57:27.280 --> 00:57:29.800
<v Speaker 2>been a robber and done this and that, and he's

1014
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:32.800
<v Speaker 2>generally a bad person. So the jury might get the impression, well,

1015
00:57:32.800 --> 00:57:34.400
<v Speaker 2>he's a bad person and we should treat him for

1016
00:57:34.440 --> 00:57:37.480
<v Speaker 2>all the evil things he's done. Right, Well, that's not

1017
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:41.440
<v Speaker 2>fair to the defendant. In other words, if someone is

1018
00:57:41.559 --> 00:57:45.679
<v Speaker 2>own trial for a particular offense, they should be tried

1019
00:57:45.760 --> 00:57:48.559
<v Speaker 2>for that particular offense, not for something else they may

1020
00:57:48.639 --> 00:57:50.559
<v Speaker 2>or may not have done. At some point in the past.

1021
00:57:50.599 --> 00:57:54.239
<v Speaker 2>And that's an important legal concept in Georgia, at least

1022
00:57:54.280 --> 00:57:58.440
<v Speaker 2>based on case law. If a crime for which one

1023
00:57:58.519 --> 00:58:02.559
<v Speaker 2>is own trial for fits a pattern of other crimes

1024
00:58:02.639 --> 00:58:06.159
<v Speaker 2>that the defendant can reasonably be thought to have committed,

1025
00:58:06.719 --> 00:58:09.800
<v Speaker 2>then the other crimes can be committed can be presented

1026
00:58:10.320 --> 00:58:13.800
<v Speaker 2>not to prove that the defendant is an evil person

1027
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:16.880
<v Speaker 2>or does bad things, but rather to show that the

1028
00:58:16.920 --> 00:58:20.719
<v Speaker 2>trial crimes for which he's accused and untrump for are

1029
00:58:20.920 --> 00:58:25.360
<v Speaker 2>part of a larger pattern. Okay, and that's that became

1030
00:58:25.440 --> 00:58:29.679
<v Speaker 2>an important important case law based on the Atlanta child

1031
00:58:29.760 --> 00:58:33.800
<v Speaker 2>murders cases of about the same of a few years earlier.

1032
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:37.119
<v Speaker 6>Right now you talk about that, then obviously there's the

1033
00:58:37.239 --> 00:58:41.159
<v Speaker 6>obvious automatic appeals or mandatory appeals, and then they can

1034
00:58:41.199 --> 00:58:43.159
<v Speaker 6>go allway all the way up to the Supreme Court

1035
00:58:43.559 --> 00:58:47.519
<v Speaker 6>after the state courts or those appeals have exhausted. So

1036
00:58:47.800 --> 00:58:51.880
<v Speaker 6>the same people essentially are involved in the defense or

1037
00:58:51.920 --> 00:58:55.199
<v Speaker 6>want to be involved in defense, explain, explain this and

1038
00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:57.920
<v Speaker 6>their fervor for to continue with this case.

1039
00:58:58.039 --> 00:59:01.360
<v Speaker 2>Well, this was a death penalty case. And what I

1040
00:59:01.360 --> 00:59:04.039
<v Speaker 2>didn't say just now was that Gary was sentenced to death.

1041
00:59:04.280 --> 00:59:08.480
<v Speaker 2>And there are automatic appeals in Georgia and I think

1042
00:59:08.480 --> 00:59:11.199
<v Speaker 2>in most other jurisdictions in this country, for that kind

1043
00:59:11.199 --> 00:59:13.519
<v Speaker 2>of sentence. But you also have a group of people

1044
00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:17.039
<v Speaker 2>who are charged, the defense attorneys a charge with if

1045
00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:23.159
<v Speaker 2>not getting him completely off the hook, mitigating the sentence

1046
00:59:23.239 --> 00:59:25.079
<v Speaker 2>to which he's been given.

1047
00:59:25.239 --> 00:59:25.480
<v Speaker 4>Right.

1048
00:59:25.639 --> 00:59:28.320
<v Speaker 2>So the hope was they could get a new trial,

1049
00:59:29.079 --> 00:59:31.159
<v Speaker 2>and for example, as I said a moment ago, if

1050
00:59:31.239 --> 00:59:34.760
<v Speaker 2>if some of the witnesses are dead and no longer

1051
00:59:34.800 --> 00:59:37.920
<v Speaker 2>can testify, if the fervor to punish this man is

1052
00:59:38.079 --> 00:59:40.639
<v Speaker 2>somewhat cool down, then perhaps they can get the death

1053
00:59:40.639 --> 00:59:45.039
<v Speaker 2>sentence commuted to life without parole or even life with parole.

1054
00:59:45.360 --> 00:59:47.239
<v Speaker 2>This went on for a long period of time. The

1055
00:59:47.320 --> 00:59:50.440
<v Speaker 2>other thing, other factors here were there were people who

1056
00:59:50.599 --> 00:59:54.440
<v Speaker 2>there were people who were very aggressive death penalty death

1057
00:59:54.480 --> 00:59:58.280
<v Speaker 2>penalty opponents. One. There were people who believe that Gary,

1058
00:59:58.400 --> 01:00:01.840
<v Speaker 2>because he was a black man, was treated wrongly simply

1059
01:00:01.880 --> 01:00:04.400
<v Speaker 2>on the basis of race, although there's no evidence at

1060
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:06.559
<v Speaker 2>all that this occurred, and there were a lot of

1061
01:00:06.639 --> 01:00:11.119
<v Speaker 2>emotional factors that came into play. This caused his appeals

1062
01:00:11.159 --> 01:00:14.320
<v Speaker 2>to span a total of thirty two years before his

1063
01:00:14.400 --> 01:00:17.360
<v Speaker 2>eventual execution in March twenty eighteen right.

1064
01:00:17.280 --> 01:00:19.719
<v Speaker 6>This this, this as an opportunity to stop for these messages.

1065
01:00:20.480 --> 01:00:24.679
<v Speaker 6>Now he was scheduled to die. It took that many years,

1066
01:00:25.079 --> 01:00:28.679
<v Speaker 6>but in the interim his lawyers fought tooth and nail

1067
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:33.119
<v Speaker 6>to have that stay of proceedings, to have this overturned

1068
01:00:33.159 --> 01:00:36.840
<v Speaker 6>to but they were not successful. Tell us about the

1069
01:00:37.800 --> 01:00:39.800
<v Speaker 6>end of this saga.

1070
01:00:39.880 --> 01:00:43.760
<v Speaker 2>In the end, Gary had, as I said, exhausted all

1071
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:46.400
<v Speaker 2>of his appeals and totally in it. To repeat myself,

1072
01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:49.119
<v Speaker 2>this case went to the US Supreme Court on four

1073
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:54.880
<v Speaker 2>separate occasions, and it exhausted the state and federal appeal system.

1074
01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:01.400
<v Speaker 2>And while the defense alleged multiple things, multiple things that

1075
01:01:01.639 --> 01:01:04.920
<v Speaker 2>the prosecution may have done wrong, or multiple bits of

1076
01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:09.639
<v Speaker 2>evidence it might change the sentence, none of these were validated,

1077
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:14.719
<v Speaker 2>and he eventually was executed without much fanfare in marsh.

1078
01:01:14.760 --> 01:01:18.519
<v Speaker 2>There are people now who still believe that he is innocent.

1079
01:01:18.679 --> 01:01:21.400
<v Speaker 2>If I can bring in a personal note here, I

1080
01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:24.000
<v Speaker 2>was doing a book signing the other day and I

1081
01:01:24.079 --> 01:01:26.079
<v Speaker 2>ran to someone who told me that she didn't need

1082
01:01:26.119 --> 01:01:29.159
<v Speaker 2>to read the book because she knew what the truth was. Sure,

1083
01:01:29.320 --> 01:01:33.679
<v Speaker 2>the implication, the inflication, whatever I wrote was not worth

1084
01:01:33.719 --> 01:01:36.000
<v Speaker 2>reading because she already knew the truth, and I said,

1085
01:01:36.000 --> 01:01:39.760
<v Speaker 2>that's fine, fascinating study and the human emotion and human

1086
01:01:39.880 --> 01:01:41.559
<v Speaker 2>belief and so forth.

1087
01:01:42.360 --> 01:01:45.519
<v Speaker 6>When I mentioned the fervor of the defense team right

1088
01:01:45.559 --> 01:01:49.880
<v Speaker 6>to the very end, they did ask daringly for DNA

1089
01:01:50.159 --> 01:01:53.480
<v Speaker 6>evidence to see if they could get of any kind

1090
01:01:53.519 --> 01:01:57.440
<v Speaker 6>of change at whatsoever. It was granted. But there were

1091
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:00.760
<v Speaker 6>some interesting developments with that DNA tech thing, wasn't there?

1092
01:02:00.960 --> 01:02:03.920
<v Speaker 2>There was quite interesting, And the DNA testing was not

1093
01:02:03.960 --> 01:02:06.639
<v Speaker 2>done to two thousand and nine. And I'm sure your

1094
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:09.159
<v Speaker 2>listeners who say, well, gee, you know, why did they

1095
01:02:09.199 --> 01:02:11.480
<v Speaker 2>not do DNA testing in two thousand and nine? Sure

1096
01:02:11.840 --> 01:02:14.840
<v Speaker 2>they defense had had the opportunity and it had been

1097
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:17.320
<v Speaker 2>offered to them, But according to prosecutors, I should say

1098
01:02:17.480 --> 01:02:20.440
<v Speaker 2>court to prosecutors, the defense attorneys had had the opportunity,

1099
01:02:20.440 --> 01:02:22.800
<v Speaker 2>and it had been offered to do DNA testing earlier

1100
01:02:23.079 --> 01:02:27.239
<v Speaker 2>on whatever evidence was available, and they had turned it down.

1101
01:02:27.800 --> 01:02:31.639
<v Speaker 2>And as one person said, the getting DNA testing done

1102
01:02:31.760 --> 01:02:35.519
<v Speaker 2>was a hail Mary pass. There was Pascal's wage of

1103
01:02:35.760 --> 01:02:38.119
<v Speaker 2>what they had. They had nothing to lose and much

1104
01:02:38.199 --> 01:02:41.920
<v Speaker 2>to gain if if the DNA testing showed that he

1105
01:02:42.119 --> 01:02:45.920
<v Speaker 2>was in fact one of the Columbus strangler. Then he

1106
01:02:45.960 --> 01:02:48.639
<v Speaker 2>had already been convicted of that, but the possibility that

1107
01:02:48.760 --> 01:02:52.360
<v Speaker 2>it might somehow free him or somehow throw a wrench

1108
01:02:52.400 --> 01:02:58.400
<v Speaker 2>into everything was worth trying. Well. Understand that the specimens

1109
01:02:58.400 --> 01:03:01.159
<v Speaker 2>that they were looking at were collected in the in

1110
01:03:01.559 --> 01:03:04.840
<v Speaker 2>late nineteen seventies, seventy seven and seventy eight, and here

1111
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:08.039
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and nine, which thirty something forty years later.

1112
01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:11.639
<v Speaker 2>You know, the specimens were not of great quality. They

1113
01:03:11.639 --> 01:03:15.440
<v Speaker 2>had three specimens, one of which was not didn't have

1114
01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:18.840
<v Speaker 2>any didn't have any seamen in it. Apparently another specimen

1115
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:24.440
<v Speaker 2>was another specimen of Mss Diamondstein, showed in fact that

1116
01:03:24.519 --> 01:03:29.559
<v Speaker 2>Gary apparently had raped her. His DNA matched her the

1117
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:33.079
<v Speaker 2>seamen vachelal secretions from her crime scene. But he was

1118
01:03:33.119 --> 01:03:35.920
<v Speaker 2>not charged with Miss Diamondstein's murder. She was one of

1119
01:03:35.960 --> 01:03:37.880
<v Speaker 2>the one that he was his murder who was not

1120
01:03:38.000 --> 01:03:40.800
<v Speaker 2>charged with it. And then the third case was absolutely

1121
01:03:40.840 --> 01:03:43.920
<v Speaker 2>fascinating because in this case it showed that in Miss

1122
01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:47.719
<v Speaker 2>Sherman's case that there was a DNA from another man,

1123
01:03:48.519 --> 01:03:51.480
<v Speaker 2>and this is a lady who should not have She

1124
01:03:51.559 --> 01:03:53.800
<v Speaker 2>was a widow and her family had been there, and

1125
01:03:53.840 --> 01:03:56.320
<v Speaker 2>there should not be other male DNA in her specimens,

1126
01:03:56.559 --> 01:03:58.960
<v Speaker 2>and it turned out that the State Crime Level of

1127
01:03:59.000 --> 01:04:04.199
<v Speaker 2>Georgia had made era. They had been using control DNA

1128
01:04:04.320 --> 01:04:07.840
<v Speaker 2>specimen WOW, which apparently had been contributed either by one

1129
01:04:07.880 --> 01:04:10.679
<v Speaker 2>of the husbands of the people that worked there or

1130
01:04:10.719 --> 01:04:12.960
<v Speaker 2>one of the workers. They are male workers, and it

1131
01:04:13.079 --> 01:04:17.920
<v Speaker 2>had their workspace had become contamidated and this showed up

1132
01:04:17.960 --> 01:04:21.320
<v Speaker 2>positive for him with this unknown DNA. This was eventually

1133
01:04:21.440 --> 01:04:24.280
<v Speaker 2>sorted out and led to a great revision and what

1134
01:04:24.320 --> 01:04:28.079
<v Speaker 2>the state crime Lab did, how they did their testing,

1135
01:04:28.280 --> 01:04:30.679
<v Speaker 2>but it was quite embarrassing to the Strike Crime Lab.

1136
01:04:31.079 --> 01:04:33.920
<v Speaker 2>It looked for a while like like this there was

1137
01:04:34.000 --> 01:04:37.239
<v Speaker 2>another unknown person, but it turned out to be so

1138
01:04:37.280 --> 01:04:40.000
<v Speaker 2>they eventually sorted it out, to the great embarrassment of

1139
01:04:40.039 --> 01:04:41.079
<v Speaker 2>the state of Georgia.

1140
01:04:41.199 --> 01:04:44.119
<v Speaker 6>Right, you talked about the media and its rule in

1141
01:04:44.199 --> 01:04:47.239
<v Speaker 6>this story, and you mentioned the lady that thought she

1142
01:04:47.360 --> 01:04:50.400
<v Speaker 6>knew everything about this case despite having not read your

1143
01:04:51.039 --> 01:04:55.519
<v Speaker 6>really definitive book about this case. Let's talk about David

1144
01:04:55.639 --> 01:04:59.800
<v Speaker 6>Rose because, as I found it very interesting, the being

1145
01:05:00.320 --> 01:05:04.840
<v Speaker 6>accepted with working with a law firm that was trying

1146
01:05:04.880 --> 01:05:09.079
<v Speaker 6>to defend Carlton Gary and then the publishing of this

1147
01:05:09.119 --> 01:05:12.320
<v Speaker 6>book and the sentiments that he espoused in this book

1148
01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:12.760
<v Speaker 6>as well.

1149
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.480
<v Speaker 2>Well, let me say that David Rose is an excellent writer.

1150
01:05:16.199 --> 01:05:19.920
<v Speaker 2>He's very good style, and I think he's a great

1151
01:05:19.960 --> 01:05:22.880
<v Speaker 2>writer in terms of technical skills. David Rose is also

1152
01:05:22.880 --> 01:05:27.960
<v Speaker 2>a death penalty opponent, and he came to interview Carlton

1153
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:31.000
<v Speaker 2>Gary with the idea, with the idea that in the

1154
01:05:31.079 --> 01:05:34.880
<v Speaker 2>American South, a person of color, black man cannot get

1155
01:05:34.920 --> 01:05:39.639
<v Speaker 2>a fair trial, and that perhaps that Carlton Gary had

1156
01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:43.480
<v Speaker 2>been was innocent, and so forth and so on, and

1157
01:05:43.920 --> 01:05:47.159
<v Speaker 2>he wrote a rather best selling book of this. It

1158
01:05:47.280 --> 01:05:49.880
<v Speaker 2>was published in two thousand and seven in both the

1159
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:52.760
<v Speaker 2>United Kingdom and the United States, and the US it

1160
01:05:52.840 --> 01:05:55.599
<v Speaker 2>was sold under the name of the Big Eddy Club.

1161
01:05:56.239 --> 01:06:00.119
<v Speaker 2>And this was really the only supposedly definitive book on

1162
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:02.639
<v Speaker 2>on this case. There are some others that have sort

1163
01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:04.639
<v Speaker 2>of touched on it, but nothing that really had no

1164
01:06:04.760 --> 01:06:09.599
<v Speaker 2>serious work otherwise. Problem with Rose's book is not his

1165
01:06:09.760 --> 01:06:13.000
<v Speaker 2>style or anything, but the fact that he wrote the

1166
01:06:13.079 --> 01:06:19.400
<v Speaker 2>book in in order to demonstrate his belief that Gary

1167
01:06:19.480 --> 01:06:21.599
<v Speaker 2>was not culpable for some or all of what he

1168
01:06:21.719 --> 01:06:24.840
<v Speaker 2>was charged with. And when you write a book with

1169
01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:28.199
<v Speaker 2>an agenda as opposed to telling the truth, you end

1170
01:06:28.280 --> 01:06:33.280
<v Speaker 2>up giving large large amounts of what I don't think

1171
01:06:33.360 --> 01:06:37.199
<v Speaker 2>are particularly verifiable. The book has many examples of what

1172
01:06:37.239 --> 01:06:41.440
<v Speaker 2>I believe refer to his narrative fallacy and confirmation bias.

1173
01:06:41.559 --> 01:06:44.039
<v Speaker 2>For example, he would say that's one of the judicial

1174
01:06:44.159 --> 01:06:47.800
<v Speaker 2>member's grandfather back in the eighteen sixties or the latter

1175
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:51.440
<v Speaker 2>part of the nineteenth century had done something racist. Therefore

1176
01:06:51.519 --> 01:06:54.880
<v Speaker 2>the great grandson a great grandson must also be racist

1177
01:06:54.920 --> 01:06:58.880
<v Speaker 2>as well. This kind of thing. And since it's the

1178
01:06:58.920 --> 01:07:02.360
<v Speaker 2>only book written, it was, it's all people had to

1179
01:07:02.360 --> 01:07:05.760
<v Speaker 2>go on. And I hope this tried scrupulously to be

1180
01:07:06.920 --> 01:07:12.239
<v Speaker 2>non noncommittal in terms of making judgments in this book.

1181
01:07:12.239 --> 01:07:14.480
<v Speaker 2>I've simply tried to report the facts. I will say

1182
01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:17.000
<v Speaker 2>one further thing about gross which I think is important.

1183
01:07:17.239 --> 01:07:19.320
<v Speaker 2>The first book came out in two thousand and seven,

1184
01:07:19.360 --> 01:07:23.800
<v Speaker 2>and an addition came out revised second edition came out

1185
01:07:23.800 --> 01:07:28.280
<v Speaker 2>in softcover in twenty ten. Now, in two thousand and seven,

1186
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:33.199
<v Speaker 2>unrelated to anything in Columbus, cold case detectives in New

1187
01:07:33.360 --> 01:07:36.519
<v Speaker 2>York were following up on the death of a lady

1188
01:07:36.559 --> 01:07:39.880
<v Speaker 2>named Marian Fisher. She was a lady in her forties

1189
01:07:40.039 --> 01:07:42.599
<v Speaker 2>who was married, went out with her husband to celebrate

1190
01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:46.760
<v Speaker 2>the anniversary. She and her husband got drinking. She got mad,

1191
01:07:46.920 --> 01:07:49.159
<v Speaker 2>walk said I'm going to walk home. He'd been drinking

1192
01:07:49.159 --> 01:07:51.519
<v Speaker 2>pretty heavily, went home and went to bed. The next

1193
01:07:51.599 --> 01:07:56.719
<v Speaker 2>day they found her body. She had been raped and murdered, strangled,

1194
01:07:57.159 --> 01:07:59.960
<v Speaker 2>and the husband was a prime suspect. He apparently knew

1195
01:08:00.119 --> 01:08:02.239
<v Speaker 2>been drinking enough to where he didn't remember part of

1196
01:08:02.320 --> 01:08:06.000
<v Speaker 2>the evening before. And so between nineteen seventy seven and

1197
01:08:06.119 --> 01:08:10.360
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven, all those years, those thirty odd years,

1198
01:08:10.599 --> 01:08:13.119
<v Speaker 2>he was the suspect in his wife's death. But as

1199
01:08:13.159 --> 01:08:16.199
<v Speaker 2>one policeman said, there wasn't enough to really accuse him

1200
01:08:16.199 --> 01:08:19.640
<v Speaker 2>officially or convict him of it. Well, cocase detectives went

1201
01:08:19.680 --> 01:08:21.640
<v Speaker 2>back and looked at that, and lo and behold, they

1202
01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:27.520
<v Speaker 2>found Carlton Gary's DNA on the woman's on some evidence

1203
01:08:27.520 --> 01:08:30.640
<v Speaker 2>from the crime scene. And they actually interviewed Carlton Gary

1204
01:08:30.680 --> 01:08:32.479
<v Speaker 2>about it, and he said that he had gone out

1205
01:08:32.520 --> 01:08:34.520
<v Speaker 2>with a woman and had sex with her, but you know,

1206
01:08:34.600 --> 01:08:38.319
<v Speaker 2>nothing like this happened. Okay, right, Well, this was a

1207
01:08:38.359 --> 01:08:41.079
<v Speaker 2>blockbuster of a thing because this is a guy who's

1208
01:08:41.079 --> 01:08:44.880
<v Speaker 2>on death row in Georgia, who's been strongly implicated and

1209
01:08:45.159 --> 01:08:48.439
<v Speaker 2>in a murder that occurred decades before, but during the

1210
01:08:48.479 --> 01:08:52.199
<v Speaker 2>same general timeframe, and the people in New York chose

1211
01:08:52.279 --> 01:08:55.720
<v Speaker 2>not to prosecute it because Gary was already on death row.

1212
01:08:56.319 --> 01:08:59.439
<v Speaker 2>But the thing is that Rose, in updating his book,

1213
01:08:59.520 --> 01:09:03.079
<v Speaker 2>goes into great detail about what's been happening with Gary's appeals,

1214
01:09:03.119 --> 01:09:05.840
<v Speaker 2>but fails to mention the fact that he's been strongly

1215
01:09:05.880 --> 01:09:07.439
<v Speaker 2>implicated in another murder.

1216
01:09:07.840 --> 01:09:13.600
<v Speaker 6>Sure interesting, very very interesting. In closing, you think a

1217
01:09:13.640 --> 01:09:18.880
<v Speaker 6>lot of people, but you especially think Detective Seller's daughter.

1218
01:09:18.960 --> 01:09:23.520
<v Speaker 6>I believe Sally Sellers was his wife. Life tell us

1219
01:09:23.560 --> 01:09:24.560
<v Speaker 6>about her contribution.

1220
01:09:25.359 --> 01:09:27.119
<v Speaker 2>There are two people that worked on the case. One

1221
01:09:27.520 --> 01:09:29.880
<v Speaker 2>is Mike Seller's the other is Bill Smith, and I'll

1222
01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:32.560
<v Speaker 2>mention both of them. But whenever you look at something

1223
01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:36.199
<v Speaker 2>that's happened historically, you need to find people who were there,

1224
01:09:36.239 --> 01:09:38.800
<v Speaker 2>who could feel the emotion, you know, who actually saw

1225
01:09:38.840 --> 01:09:42.039
<v Speaker 2>it for themselves. Reading dry accounts is not adequate, and

1226
01:09:42.319 --> 01:09:44.680
<v Speaker 2>Mike Seller's was one of the ones. He was the

1227
01:09:44.720 --> 01:09:48.880
<v Speaker 2>policeman who had much to do with discovering the missing

1228
01:09:48.960 --> 01:09:52.199
<v Speaker 2>pistol that led sorry following up on the missing pistol

1229
01:09:52.239 --> 01:09:55.600
<v Speaker 2>that led to Gary's arrest, and was also involved in

1230
01:09:55.760 --> 01:09:59.319
<v Speaker 2>as a as an investigator of the during the prosecution period,

1231
01:09:59.520 --> 01:10:02.399
<v Speaker 2>he has an encyclopedic knowledge of what happened. The same

1232
01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:05.720
<v Speaker 2>thing I should say for Bill Smith that William J. Smith,

1233
01:10:05.800 --> 01:10:07.920
<v Speaker 2>the prosecutor in the case who later became his spirit

1234
01:10:08.000 --> 01:10:12.279
<v Speaker 2>court judge, he too has a encyclopedic knowledge and talking

1235
01:10:12.279 --> 01:10:14.720
<v Speaker 2>with them and asking them about the details and saying,

1236
01:10:14.800 --> 01:10:17.399
<v Speaker 2>explain this to me, how did this happen? It was

1237
01:10:17.560 --> 01:10:22.600
<v Speaker 2>quite valuable. Mike Seller's wife had kept a wonderful scrap

1238
01:10:22.600 --> 01:10:24.359
<v Speaker 2>book which they shared with me, So there were a

1239
01:10:24.359 --> 01:10:27.439
<v Speaker 2>lot of papers and information that I used and write

1240
01:10:27.479 --> 01:10:29.199
<v Speaker 2>this book that I have to give her credit for.

1241
01:10:29.520 --> 01:10:32.119
<v Speaker 6>Absolutely. I want to thank you so much for coming

1242
01:10:32.199 --> 01:10:36.279
<v Speaker 6>on and talking about the Columbus Stocking Strangler. William, is

1243
01:10:36.319 --> 01:10:38.439
<v Speaker 6>there a website that people might want to take a

1244
01:10:38.479 --> 01:10:40.960
<v Speaker 6>look at and tell us when this book is released?

1245
01:10:41.000 --> 01:10:42.880
<v Speaker 6>I had mentioned it before. Tell us a little bit

1246
01:10:42.880 --> 01:10:44.600
<v Speaker 6>how people might might find out about this book.

1247
01:10:44.680 --> 01:10:46.840
<v Speaker 2>First of all, my website is my name with the

1248
01:10:47.119 --> 01:10:52.039
<v Speaker 2>www dot com before and after respectively. It's www dot

1249
01:10:52.119 --> 01:10:55.760
<v Speaker 2>William Rawlings w I l l I A m R

1250
01:10:55.920 --> 01:11:00.159
<v Speaker 2>A w l I nngs dot com that has lots

1251
01:11:00.199 --> 01:11:02.960
<v Speaker 2>information on this book and other books. Interestingly, on the

1252
01:11:02.960 --> 01:11:05.520
<v Speaker 2>website up at the top, there's a thing called Calton

1253
01:11:05.560 --> 01:11:09.680
<v Speaker 2>Gary Timeline. If you want to know Gary's complete criminal history.

1254
01:11:09.760 --> 01:11:13.039
<v Speaker 2>You can click on this and get some additional information

1255
01:11:13.119 --> 01:11:15.319
<v Speaker 2>that's not included in the book. The book can be

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01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:17.880
<v Speaker 2>bought from your local bookseller. I always urge people to

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01:11:18.039 --> 01:11:23.319
<v Speaker 2>support your local bookstore. Yes, own the possibility that you

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01:11:23.359 --> 01:11:25.880
<v Speaker 2>don't live where there's a local bookstore. You can order

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01:11:25.920 --> 01:11:28.439
<v Speaker 2>it from any number of outlets, including on Barnes and

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01:11:28.479 --> 01:11:33.960
<v Speaker 2>Noble Amazon. There is a digital version available, and soon

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01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:37.399
<v Speaker 2>a couple of months there should be an audio version available.

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01:11:37.760 --> 01:11:40.880
<v Speaker 2>The official release date of the book is September sixth, However,

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01:11:40.920 --> 01:11:44.920
<v Speaker 2>it is available now in both digital and print versions.

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01:11:45.039 --> 01:11:47.600
<v Speaker 2>It's out in hardcover, and at some point I think

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01:11:47.600 --> 01:11:49.399
<v Speaker 2>it'll prey in the distant future, it may come out

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01:11:49.399 --> 01:11:50.479
<v Speaker 2>in softcover as well.

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<v Speaker 6>Thank you so much, William Rawlings, the Columbus Stocking Strangler.

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<v Speaker 6>You have a great evening. Thank you so much for

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01:11:56.960 --> 01:11:59.960
<v Speaker 6>this interview. Good night, Thank you Dan, thank you