WEBVTT 1 00:00:04.160 --> 00:00:07.719 With Laurent's Segal end from London and Gerard read from Berlin. 2 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:10.919 This is redefining energy today. 3 00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:15.400 On redefining energy, we're going to look at hyperscalers and 4 00:00:15.679 --> 00:00:19.199 US utilities. But we did something sort of similar a 5 00:00:19.280 --> 00:00:22.120 few months back, and actually what we did is we 6 00:00:22.160 --> 00:00:24.399 looked at from the hyper scaler's point of view. This 7 00:00:24.600 --> 00:00:27.160 time we're going to look at from the utilities, the 8 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:30.359 US utilities, how they see barber World's going forward, how 9 00:00:30.359 --> 00:00:34.000 they can meet demand going forward, what new services are 10 00:00:34.000 --> 00:00:35.840 in it, and whether it's a hype cycle. 11 00:00:35.600 --> 00:00:38.240 Or our But first the world from my partner. 12 00:00:38.439 --> 00:00:41.399 A b Loco Energy is Europe's premier leaser of ten 13 00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:45.799 foot container mobile batteries built in Europe with COTL best 14 00:00:45.960 --> 00:00:51.759 LFP cells. A Bloco Energy serves fourteen European countries, including France, 15 00:00:52.240 --> 00:00:55.920 Germany and the UK. A Bloco's batteries can be leased 16 00:00:55.960 --> 00:00:59.079 for any duration between six weeks and six years, and 17 00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.439 they are monitored by the Dutch award wearing platform school 18 00:01:03.079 --> 00:01:06.159 A block or Energy make your life easier, make your 19 00:01:06.200 --> 00:01:07.200 business more flexible. 20 00:01:07.480 --> 00:01:11.000 Back to the show, Yes Chad, in episode two nineteen, 21 00:01:11.519 --> 00:01:15.319 we really analyzed the need for power from hyper scalers, 22 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:19.079 and in order to get the view of the US utilities, 23 00:01:19.400 --> 00:01:23.840 we have brought Rajif Bajarj is VP of Solutions Sales 24 00:01:23.879 --> 00:01:28.680 that Constellation and for our listeners, Constellation it's in terms 25 00:01:28.719 --> 00:01:33.760 of capacity, in terms of generation, it's the largest power 26 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:39.040 producer in the US, and their fleet is extremely interesting 27 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:44.359 because it's fifty percent nuclear and fifty percent gas after 28 00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:48.640 the acquisition of Calpine last year. So you're going to 29 00:01:48.680 --> 00:01:54.040 see how the growth of Hyperscalar is perceived from a 30 00:01:54.159 --> 00:01:56.000 US utility point of view. 31 00:01:56.519 --> 00:01:58.000 So why don't we bring them on a show. I'm 32 00:01:58.000 --> 00:01:58.640 looking forward to this. 33 00:01:59.480 --> 00:02:02.480 Rash Welcome to the show. Thank you very much. Lauren. 34 00:02:02.920 --> 00:02:05.400 Well, right, maybe i'd kick off. I used to be 35 00:02:05.400 --> 00:02:09.280 a utilities on list and if I look at utilities, 36 00:02:09.319 --> 00:02:13.000 they've always traded a very low multiples because basically los 37 00:02:13.039 --> 00:02:15.400 has been happened in the utility space for twenty years. 38 00:02:15.960 --> 00:02:18.319 And then I look at the share prices in the 39 00:02:18.400 --> 00:02:21.560 last few years of the utilities and evaluations they're at. 40 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:25.840 Suddenly they're trading like growth stocks. So gives an a 41 00:02:26.000 --> 00:02:29.599 view of what's happened too for the sleepy utilities to 42 00:02:29.639 --> 00:02:33.120 suddenly have these great valuations and growth stories. 43 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:36.120 You know, when I first joined the industry, it was 44 00:02:36.199 --> 00:02:40.520 a very sleepy, boring industry. Nothing ever changed, and there's 45 00:02:40.560 --> 00:02:44.719 been a tremendous transformation in the industry and with our company, 46 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:49.400 because everything is now revolving around energy. And that's just 47 00:02:49.479 --> 00:02:52.240 not in the data center space, but in general. The 48 00:02:52.319 --> 00:02:57.560 supply demand has shifted very significantly, continues to change, and 49 00:02:57.879 --> 00:03:00.840 it's going to have a significant impact on the global 50 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:03.400 economy and how things play out over the next few 51 00:03:03.479 --> 00:03:04.240 years for sure. 52 00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:06.560 And by the way, look at im enough see you 53 00:03:06.599 --> 00:03:09.319 work for Constellation. What for me is incredible is to 54 00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:12.879 see the share price has going up sixfold in five years. 55 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.120 And again I've never seen anything like that in the 56 00:03:15.199 --> 00:03:16.080 utility space. 57 00:03:16.240 --> 00:03:16.439 Right. 58 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:20.439 That's the amazing part is, in many ways, a lot 59 00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:23.199 of our company's stocks, so it's just not Constellation, with 60 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:26.520 other companies as well, has tracked what has happened in 61 00:03:26.520 --> 00:03:29.400 the data center space. There's a fairly strong correlation in 62 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:34.199 some cases that shows how much energy is being valued 63 00:03:34.400 --> 00:03:38.520 as being impactful to the world in this very important 64 00:03:38.560 --> 00:03:39.719 segment of the market. 65 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:42.639 If you try to put some numbers to a Constellation, 66 00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:46.319 you're the biggest usut t term of capacity in generation, 67 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:48.960 so you generate to a rotel one hour per year. 68 00:03:49.560 --> 00:03:52.680 I mean front of you. You've got those Hyperscalars, the Amazon, 69 00:03:52.840 --> 00:03:57.159 the Google, the Microsoft, and they consume thirty to how 70 00:03:57.199 --> 00:04:00.479 what hour? You're much bigger, But those guys, guys have 71 00:04:00.680 --> 00:04:06.719 big plans, big money, big demand. How do you accommodate 72 00:04:06.919 --> 00:04:11.680 those people? Which pace of development for outstreet even probably 73 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:12.400 what you can deliver. 74 00:04:13.199 --> 00:04:15.360 What I can do here is provide a little bit 75 00:04:15.360 --> 00:04:19.680 of a background on Constellation as a company. Constellation is 76 00:04:19.720 --> 00:04:22.319 a three year old company. We call it it's a 77 00:04:22.360 --> 00:04:24.800 new old company because as a company it's been around 78 00:04:24.879 --> 00:04:27.920 for a long time. But it was at one point 79 00:04:28.120 --> 00:04:31.800 fired by utility Excellon three years ago, we spun off 80 00:04:31.839 --> 00:04:35.079 from Excellent in an ipo and we are listed on 81 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:38.800 the Nasdaq Stock Exchange. Since then, the company has done 82 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:42.240 extremely well. But a lot of times, when you think 83 00:04:42.279 --> 00:04:45.519 about companies doing well, a lot of it is hard work, 84 00:04:45.600 --> 00:04:48.079 but you also need some good luck at the same time, 85 00:04:48.600 --> 00:04:51.360 and the time of our spin off was very good 86 00:04:51.839 --> 00:04:55.360 because nuclear power at the time was really not in 87 00:04:55.480 --> 00:04:58.040 vogue at all. Actually, one of the reasons we're being 88 00:04:58.079 --> 00:05:01.040 spun off is because from an ex Alon standpoint, it 89 00:05:01.079 --> 00:05:04.720 was a strategic and the shareholders didn't really want it 90 00:05:04.759 --> 00:05:07.759 as part of the portfolio. During the time of the 91 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.519 spin off, things changed and the nuclear fleet, many of 92 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:14.600 which we had already taken out of commission, some others 93 00:05:14.600 --> 00:05:17.240 we were considering or had announced we're going to be 94 00:05:17.279 --> 00:05:21.279 taken out of commission, became more valuable and we got 95 00:05:21.279 --> 00:05:24.120 the benefit of it during the IPO process and as 96 00:05:24.160 --> 00:05:27.160 a new company. Because nuclear all of a sudden became 97 00:05:27.240 --> 00:05:30.600 the thing in vogue. It became important because of the 98 00:05:30.680 --> 00:05:33.959 reliability of a nuclear fleet and the fact that it 99 00:05:34.079 --> 00:05:36.920 runs twenty four by seven by three sixty five, which 100 00:05:37.079 --> 00:05:39.879 became a high priority for data centers as well as others. 101 00:05:39.959 --> 00:05:43.600 At the same time last year we also announced the 102 00:05:43.639 --> 00:05:47.600 acquisition of Calpine. That was very much related to where 103 00:05:47.639 --> 00:05:51.480 we saw the market going moving forward. Our president and CEO, 104 00:05:51.639 --> 00:05:55.120 Joe Dimingus is he's a visionary. I highly admire his 105 00:05:55.240 --> 00:06:00.319 knowledge and insight, and he saw that because reliability was 106 00:06:00.360 --> 00:06:04.439 becoming a bigger issue and we needed to provide every 107 00:06:04.480 --> 00:06:08.360 electron to the grid as possible, having a nuclear fleet 108 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:12.879 was great being clean and reliable, but you can't build 109 00:06:12.879 --> 00:06:16.240 a nuclear fleet overnight right and add to it. So 110 00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:19.360 gas became an important part of our strategy. We closed 111 00:06:19.360 --> 00:06:22.040 the deal at the end of last year and now 112 00:06:22.360 --> 00:06:25.560 what I would call the new constellation post the Calpie 113 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.439 and acquisition, we are the largest independent power producer in 114 00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:32.439 the world. In the US, we have the largest nuclear 115 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:37.040 fleet and the largest gas fleet producing electricity. We also, 116 00:06:37.360 --> 00:06:41.160 through Calpine, have become the largest geothermal provider in the 117 00:06:41.279 --> 00:06:45.240 US as well. So it's a much more diverse mix 118 00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:48.199 with generation and a lot of different parts of the country. 119 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:50.639 And so it gives us the ability to be more 120 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.600 flexible in terms of putting together strategies for our customers 121 00:06:54.639 --> 00:06:58.120 that help them address the three key needs that we 122 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:04.000 see moving forward, which are reliability, sustainability, and I will 123 00:07:04.040 --> 00:07:07.519 add affordability because as power prices are going up, that's 124 00:07:07.519 --> 00:07:09.519 becoming a bigger and bigger problem. 125 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:13.800 Yeah, and affordability. It's the blessing of the US. You 126 00:07:13.839 --> 00:07:17.639 have gas at three dollar and n metu and if 127 00:07:17.680 --> 00:07:19.720 you look at what's happening in the girlf right now, 128 00:07:19.759 --> 00:07:23.360 everybody was getting this gas a twenty dollars. You can 129 00:07:23.439 --> 00:07:26.040 run a gas fleet at a three dollars and it's 130 00:07:26.079 --> 00:07:28.560 going to be I guess very profitable. But for the 131 00:07:28.560 --> 00:07:31.279 rest of the world, gas becomes not top water or 132 00:07:31.360 --> 00:07:36.040 more like Champagne. So we can't do this fuel strategy. 133 00:07:36.399 --> 00:07:41.199 You need to import gas even when it arrives. That's 134 00:07:41.240 --> 00:07:44.000 the blessing you have and good for you to maximize 135 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.839 the value of it. You are talking to the amazons 136 00:07:47.879 --> 00:07:51.000 and the metal of this world. What type of conversation 137 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:51.920 you're having with them? 138 00:07:52.720 --> 00:07:57.519 In general, the conversations continue to evolve. Two years ago, 139 00:07:57.759 --> 00:08:01.319 the discussions were very much focused on stage ability. Everyone 140 00:08:01.519 --> 00:08:04.800 was very zeroed in on you know, Scope two, scope 141 00:08:04.800 --> 00:08:08.319 on reductions. Folks that started talking about Scope three. But 142 00:08:09.360 --> 00:08:12.920 when it became very clear that the demand side of 143 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:17.279 things was going to continue to ramp up, each projection 144 00:08:17.639 --> 00:08:20.600 was higher than the last one. There's been a pivot 145 00:08:20.680 --> 00:08:24.639 where the reliability has become a much bigger part of 146 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:29.000 the conversation. Reliability in the US has become more of 147 00:08:29.040 --> 00:08:31.639 an issue because of some of the auctions that we've 148 00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:35.559 had in areas like PGM last year, where there's been 149 00:08:35.799 --> 00:08:39.320 some very dramatic increases in the capacity numbers, and there's 150 00:08:39.360 --> 00:08:42.879 a recognition that we should be thinking about not only 151 00:08:42.960 --> 00:08:46.279 just the electricity price, but other components of what's on 152 00:08:46.320 --> 00:08:51.279 a customer's bill, right, so capacity, transmission and some ancillaries 153 00:08:51.320 --> 00:08:54.799 are all being looked at more carefully because each of 154 00:08:54.840 --> 00:08:58.440 those areas together is the final bill, and you just 155 00:08:58.480 --> 00:09:00.919 can't look at one section of it, which is your 156 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:06.080 energy bill, which interestingly enough, has not changed very dramatically 157 00:09:06.120 --> 00:09:10.080 over the past few years. It's more the CND side 158 00:09:10.679 --> 00:09:15.360 capacity prices, which are the largest components of that increase. 159 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.639 Can I ask you just when you look at the 160 00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:19.759 end of the day, go back to my whole thing 161 00:09:19.759 --> 00:09:22.480 about your trading like a growth stock, can you talk 162 00:09:22.519 --> 00:09:25.159 a little bit about how you see that growth going 163 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:28.159 forward and how you manage it and what you see 164 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:30.480 is the risks in other words, more easier or does 165 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:31.159 anything warrier. 166 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:35.320 My job is to understand what the customer is doing, 167 00:09:35.559 --> 00:09:38.679 what are their pain points, and where do they want 168 00:09:38.720 --> 00:09:42.840 to go moving forward. Our strategy is very much dictated 169 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:46.320 by coming up with new products and solutions that match 170 00:09:46.399 --> 00:09:49.720 up to their changing needs. And there's a lot going 171 00:09:49.759 --> 00:09:52.519 on with the pricing part that I talked about earlier, 172 00:09:52.559 --> 00:09:56.279 but along with that, there's many other exciting things that 173 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:00.159 are happening on the technology side of things, as one 174 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:02.879 of the largest companies in this space. It's really important 175 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:06.120 for us not to just come up with a strategy 176 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:09.159 that we're comfortable with and then as an assembly line 177 00:10:09.200 --> 00:10:12.919 go to every customer with that same solution and expect 178 00:10:13.000 --> 00:10:16.600 that it's going to work for everyone. That is exactly 179 00:10:16.639 --> 00:10:20.320 the opposite of what we're seeing. We have to be 180 00:10:20.600 --> 00:10:24.080 very nimble. We have to understand that the customer and 181 00:10:24.120 --> 00:10:27.440 their objectives are changing because of what's going on in 182 00:10:27.480 --> 00:10:29.879 the market. And there are some examples are the Big 183 00:10:29.919 --> 00:10:32.559 Beautiful Bill last year, some of the executive orders coming 184 00:10:32.600 --> 00:10:35.240 out of the President. But then what we're seeing in 185 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:39.080 terms of impact on solar and wind. On the flip side, 186 00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.240 we have technologies like battery and storage, for example, that 187 00:10:43.399 --> 00:10:46.799 are becoming a bigger part of the conversation, along with 188 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:51.720 exciting areas like SMRs and potentially even fusion if you 189 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:55.840 look way into the future. So how do we take 190 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:58.480 all of this information and insight and put it together 191 00:10:59.080 --> 00:11:02.759 in a manner that a company can understand and they 192 00:11:02.759 --> 00:11:05.279 can say, Okay, I have a ten, fifteen, twenty year 193 00:11:05.399 --> 00:11:07.720 horizon to get from where I am today to my 194 00:11:07.799 --> 00:11:12.960 ultimate goal. The planning given what's available today, the constraints 195 00:11:12.960 --> 00:11:17.200 that are in place, affordability, and then new technology. There 196 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:19.080 are all pieces to the puzzle that have to come 197 00:11:19.120 --> 00:11:22.080 together to really feel like we're providing the value the 198 00:11:22.120 --> 00:11:23.080 customer is looking for. 199 00:11:24.000 --> 00:11:27.360 Rash. I'm glad you introduced batteries because I want to 200 00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:30.519 have a bit of a deeper conversation around batteries. And 201 00:11:30.559 --> 00:11:34.320 I guess that your Calpine part being very present in Texas, 202 00:11:34.360 --> 00:11:37.519 so you are interacting with batteries more and more. And 203 00:11:37.960 --> 00:11:42.720 it's also related to the famous paper of Duke University 204 00:11:42.799 --> 00:11:45.960 Tayler Norris, who now works at Google, saying the grid 205 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:49.559 is okay except for a few hundreds of hours per year, 206 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:52.559 which means that if we put flex in fact, we 207 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:54.960 we don't need to build as much generation as we 208 00:11:55.039 --> 00:11:58.200 can imagine. But if I look at batteries in the US, 209 00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:02.360 it's really Texas, California and the rest you talk about PGM, 210 00:12:02.919 --> 00:12:06.320 nobody's building battery or maybe I'm wrong, are the huge 211 00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:07.840 battery plans or not. 212 00:12:08.200 --> 00:12:12.399 In PGM, things are evolving very rapidly on the battery 213 00:12:12.440 --> 00:12:16.120 side in the US, where folks are very interested and 214 00:12:16.240 --> 00:12:18.679 looking at in front of the battery as well as 215 00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:23.759 behind the meter. Battery Solutions and Texas California by far 216 00:12:24.039 --> 00:12:28.279 they're the leaders, and they're seeing some very positive impact 217 00:12:28.480 --> 00:12:31.240 from the battery that they have implemented over the last 218 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:35.039 few years. Where California, for example, notifications are going out 219 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:39.240 in the summer months as texts to regular citizens of 220 00:12:39.279 --> 00:12:42.960 California to take their electricity down, and even those types 221 00:12:43.000 --> 00:12:46.360 of things have had a very powerful impact. Where I'm 222 00:12:46.399 --> 00:12:49.840 starting to see a change in mindset is also behind 223 00:12:49.879 --> 00:12:54.960 the battery and here taking battery, looking at demand response 224 00:12:55.039 --> 00:12:58.080 laurent which you were just referring to, and then in 225 00:12:58.120 --> 00:13:02.600 some cases also looking at solar as another component. Behind 226 00:13:02.600 --> 00:13:06.440 the meter is giving people a bundle that they can 227 00:13:06.759 --> 00:13:10.960 really understand and implement. Now, the cost is still a factor. 228 00:13:11.080 --> 00:13:12.559 I'm not going to say that. You know, we're in 229 00:13:12.600 --> 00:13:16.039 a place where it's being embraced in a very significant manner, 230 00:13:16.279 --> 00:13:19.240 but what you're starting to see is many more people 231 00:13:19.320 --> 00:13:22.039 having that conversation. We are doing a lot of modeling 232 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:26.559 for customers, trying to show them how a battery can 233 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:29.159 pay out over a long period of time and how 234 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:32.200 it's going to help mitigate the risk for them by 235 00:13:32.279 --> 00:13:36.440 itself or along with solar, but demand response is a 236 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:39.759 very significant part of the conversation as well, and where 237 00:13:39.799 --> 00:13:42.440 demand response, what I'll say is, and you're talking about 238 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:45.320 the Duke paper. We are very proud of the fact 239 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:48.440 that being a market leader is great, but one of 240 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.320 the responsibilities when you are a market leader is you 241 00:13:51.360 --> 00:13:54.440 should be taking the lead and show new and innovative 242 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:57.960 ways to make change and drive change because you have 243 00:13:58.000 --> 00:14:01.000 an audience that where people will listen to you. And 244 00:14:01.080 --> 00:14:05.039 with demand response, traditionally it's been a one year program 245 00:14:05.080 --> 00:14:07.759 and kind of bid into the program because prices for 246 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.600 capacity we're very low. A lot of companies that were 247 00:14:10.600 --> 00:14:13.480 in the program have not participated in it. What we 248 00:14:13.639 --> 00:14:16.039 have tried to do over the last year or so 249 00:14:16.360 --> 00:14:18.519 is rolled out a product that we called our Enhanced 250 00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:22.960 Demand Response Product, where we are going for a longer 251 00:14:23.039 --> 00:14:26.600 term up to ten years, but we're also providing certainty 252 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:29.639 in terms of the payout for these companies. So that 253 00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:32.679 going back to your question on a battery, when people 254 00:14:32.679 --> 00:14:35.159 are trying to model battery and they're looking at demand 255 00:14:35.200 --> 00:14:38.399 response at the same time, if you have that certainty 256 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:40.960 in terms of the revenue you're going to generate, it 257 00:14:41.000 --> 00:14:43.399 can even help offset the cost of the battery and 258 00:14:43.440 --> 00:14:46.559 make the financial models look much more attractive. 259 00:14:47.240 --> 00:14:50.600 Rash, Can I talk about another technology and listen, you're 260 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:53.399 the king of geoturmo in the Western world. I'd love 261 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:55.320 to hear your thoughts on the future of it. In 262 00:14:55.360 --> 00:14:57.519 other words, are we going to see growth in that? 263 00:14:57.919 --> 00:15:00.159 Is there new technologies there? How do you feel and 264 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:00.679 see about that? 265 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:05.600 Yeah, geothermal is a very interesting question. Recently we actually 266 00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:08.279 had a very good conversation about this, and I'll talk 267 00:15:08.320 --> 00:15:12.080 about that in a minute, But first, CEBAY is an 268 00:15:12.200 --> 00:15:16.840 organization that is the acronym stands for Clean Energy Buyers Association. 269 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:20.000 They are about four hundred companies, all the hyperscalers, other 270 00:15:20.279 --> 00:15:25.159 organizations like Target and Walmart and Exonmobile and others are 271 00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:28.679 part of this group. So it's a very cross functional 272 00:15:28.759 --> 00:15:32.960 group of energy users very much focus on sustainability and 273 00:15:32.960 --> 00:15:38.159 our reliability. As part of a board meeting, we visited Washington, 274 00:15:38.240 --> 00:15:41.480 DC and the Capital and talked with members from the House, 275 00:15:41.559 --> 00:15:44.919 the Senate as well as the White House, and geothermal 276 00:15:45.039 --> 00:15:48.679 was something that actually came up for discussion and geothermal 277 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.159 people put it all together as one term, but they're 278 00:15:52.159 --> 00:15:56.200 really two distinct pieces to geothermal. One is just through 279 00:15:56.279 --> 00:15:59.320 natural geysers in places like California, you get a lot 280 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.120 of heat. From what I understand, the Calpine facility that 281 00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:05.320 we have in northern California fits into that particular category. 282 00:16:05.679 --> 00:16:08.159 But then you have a lot of other startups that 283 00:16:08.200 --> 00:16:12.399 have new and innovative technologies that could be impactful and 284 00:16:12.440 --> 00:16:16.320 could be used across wider part of the world if successful, 285 00:16:16.960 --> 00:16:19.679 and that's an area of focus and a topic of 286 00:16:19.679 --> 00:16:23.480 the conversation. From the discussions I was referring to, the 287 00:16:23.519 --> 00:16:26.720 problem is that the technologies are still very much in 288 00:16:26.759 --> 00:16:31.320 their infancy. The price is very high, and more workers 289 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:35.240 going to have to be done to really embrace eobermal 290 00:16:35.440 --> 00:16:38.279 in a significant way. But one thing that was very 291 00:16:38.320 --> 00:16:40.840 clear to me is that at least from a federal 292 00:16:40.840 --> 00:16:44.080 government standpoint in the US, there's a lot of interest 293 00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:47.600 in geothermal and what I'm hoping is that they will 294 00:16:47.639 --> 00:16:50.919 provide a first of a kind risk or ways for 295 00:16:51.080 --> 00:16:54.960 these new technologies to come to market faster, because as 296 00:16:55.080 --> 00:16:57.960 more people embrace it, hopefully prices will come down, it 297 00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:00.159 will be competitive, and we'll see more of it. 298 00:17:00.720 --> 00:17:03.600 Yeah, on the pot we've been following Timular Timer at 299 00:17:03.600 --> 00:17:08.720 Fervo really supported by Google and Cindy at Sage, which 300 00:17:08.759 --> 00:17:11.039 for me are the two startups. I mean there are 301 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.920 a bit more than startups because they have raised hundreds 302 00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:17.279 of millions. And it's true that it's a wonderful technology, 303 00:17:17.519 --> 00:17:20.559 but as you say, how much can you replicate when 304 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:23.680 you go from site A to side B. Probably what's 305 00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:25.880 above the ground should be pretty much the same. But 306 00:17:26.079 --> 00:17:29.640 all trilling thing. And it's great. They invented new techniques 307 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:32.119 and they just get better all the time. But the 308 00:17:32.200 --> 00:17:36.440 question remain. Everybody loves it, but everybody questioned the pace 309 00:17:36.559 --> 00:17:39.640 with which it can be scaled up, which is a 310 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.119 question we don't have for solar and batteries. You know, 311 00:17:42.160 --> 00:17:44.119 you just put them on the parking lot or on 312 00:17:44.160 --> 00:17:47.759 the roof. And Bobby Uncle, there's a lot of technology 313 00:17:47.880 --> 00:17:51.319 you refer a bit earlier, and here I'm very curious. 314 00:17:51.799 --> 00:17:55.440 It's SMR And if there's something you know, it's really nuclear. 315 00:17:56.000 --> 00:17:59.119 So on one camp you have Westinghouse and the book 316 00:17:59.160 --> 00:18:02.599 Fields who say the big is better, but it has 317 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:06.160 been a bit of a pain through av girl, and 318 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:10.000 on the other hand get those a lot. I don't know. 319 00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:14.480 I'm many ten twenty with some declination of the same 320 00:18:14.559 --> 00:18:17.960 some with new tech, but they've been successfully in raising money. 321 00:18:18.599 --> 00:18:19.759 How do you see the landscaping. 322 00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:25.119 SMRs somrs are great technologies, And to the first part 323 00:18:25.200 --> 00:18:28.440 of your question, we don't think that there's going to 324 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.920 be a focus only on big or a focus just 325 00:18:31.960 --> 00:18:36.000 on SMRs. It's going to be a mix moving forward, 326 00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:40.480 and that mix is going to how that percentages shakeout 327 00:18:41.240 --> 00:18:43.720 is to be determined, but it's going to be a combination. 328 00:18:44.480 --> 00:18:47.119 From a constellation standpoint, when we look at a lot 329 00:18:47.160 --> 00:18:50.839 of these new technologies for SMRs, at this point we 330 00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:53.480 are agnostic to it. We're talking with every company, We're 331 00:18:53.559 --> 00:18:54.960 understanding the technologies. 332 00:18:55.400 --> 00:18:56.400 We do have a lot. 333 00:18:56.279 --> 00:18:59.400 Of knowledge and insight, obviously on the nuclear side, so 334 00:19:00.119 --> 00:19:05.200 we are getting prepared to implement SMRs as a strategy 335 00:19:05.200 --> 00:19:08.160 at some time in the future. Having said that, in 336 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:10.880 the US there have been a lot of announcements, but 337 00:19:11.240 --> 00:19:12.880 there are certain parts of the world that are a 338 00:19:12.920 --> 00:19:15.359 little ahead of the US when it comes to SMRs. 339 00:19:16.000 --> 00:19:19.400 We will see SMRs. SMRs are going to become important 340 00:19:19.480 --> 00:19:23.640 across the world, but in the US realistically, SMRs are 341 00:19:23.720 --> 00:19:26.759 not going to be at at any significant scale until 342 00:19:26.759 --> 00:19:30.880 at least twenty thirty five. That's because there's a lot 343 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.279 of process work and approvals that are going to be 344 00:19:34.319 --> 00:19:37.480 needed before we get there. So technology is important, it's 345 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:40.880 one part of it. But then how are you going 346 00:19:40.960 --> 00:19:44.279 to license and the permitting and where they go in 347 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:47.720 and how they are brought on are all things that 348 00:19:47.799 --> 00:19:51.119 have to be decided is still work in progress. What 349 00:19:51.200 --> 00:19:53.440 I can say is a lot of companies that we 350 00:19:53.559 --> 00:19:56.000 talk to, and this is probably true across the world, 351 00:19:56.240 --> 00:19:58.759 people think about SMRs and they think that, oh, you know, 352 00:19:58.759 --> 00:20:02.240 I can just drop an SMR anywhere. Given our experience 353 00:20:02.279 --> 00:20:06.480 in nuclear, you just can't build nuclear anywhere. There's a 354 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:08.759 lot of work that needs to be done on where 355 00:20:09.079 --> 00:20:11.599 the location is. There's a lot of work that has 356 00:20:11.640 --> 00:20:14.640 to be done in terms of talking with the local communities, 357 00:20:14.920 --> 00:20:17.519 giving them the insights and knowledge and giving them the 358 00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:21.240 opportunity to learn more about nuclear And so when we 359 00:20:21.319 --> 00:20:25.039 look at nuclear including somrs in the US, we feel 360 00:20:25.079 --> 00:20:28.279 the best places for SMRs to be located is where 361 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:31.200 you already have a nuclear facility because generally there's a 362 00:20:31.200 --> 00:20:34.119 lot of land and you have a community that is 363 00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:39.240 very comfortable with nuclear. So in terms of timing interconnections community, 364 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:42.000 those are probably the most ideal places for them to 365 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:45.160 be located. So Rogie, the one thing that I also 366 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.960 see in the space is that there's a huge change 367 00:20:48.200 --> 00:20:52.200 in the way the customers are actually using energy, and 368 00:20:52.240 --> 00:20:54.720 that means you also have to change the way you're 369 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:56.880 servicing them and the products you will for them and 370 00:20:56.920 --> 00:20:59.039 stuff like that. Could you talk a little bit about 371 00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:01.480 that and expand the there's a bit of a month on 372 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.359 the innovations you see in that area there. Jared, it's 373 00:21:05.400 --> 00:21:08.880 a very good question because conversations keep all evolving with 374 00:21:08.920 --> 00:21:11.759 our customers. A lot of that has to do with 375 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.400 pretty much everything that we've been talking about so far. 376 00:21:14.920 --> 00:21:16.799 Some things that come to mind is. 377 00:21:17.000 --> 00:21:20.000 Behind the meter, and they're behind the meter strategy a 378 00:21:20.079 --> 00:21:23.200 lot more interests than probably what we had a year, 379 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.319 definitely two years ago, so the reliability piece is becoming 380 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:31.319 very critical for them. On the reliability side, we also 381 00:21:31.559 --> 00:21:35.200 have a lot of conversations about nuclear Three four years 382 00:21:35.240 --> 00:21:38.519 ago we launched an hourly product that started with data 383 00:21:38.559 --> 00:21:42.599 center companies where if you are pulling wind or solar 384 00:21:42.640 --> 00:21:45.079 and the sun isn't shining or the wind isn't blowing, 385 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:48.720 how can you fill those gaps and still have clean energy. 386 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:51.960 We're filling the gaps with our nuclear power in many cases, 387 00:21:52.480 --> 00:21:55.400 and that has expanded beyond data centers to a lot 388 00:21:55.480 --> 00:21:58.799 of other verticals as well, so that interest is growing. 389 00:21:59.400 --> 00:22:02.400 What we're also so starting to see tight reliability is 390 00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:07.240 that customers now are looking for a long term reliability, 391 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:10.960 a way to lock in capacity because they're seeing a 392 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:14.920 trend here. The trend is worrisome, it's adding risk for them, 393 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:18.680 and so how do you create a long term ppa 394 00:22:18.920 --> 00:22:23.599 where you can also lock down that capacity is generating 395 00:22:23.640 --> 00:22:27.839 significant interest as well. Those would be some critical areas. 396 00:22:28.319 --> 00:22:31.720 Another area that's interesting is Scope three. You know, Scope 397 00:22:31.720 --> 00:22:36.160 three Europe is very important, but given everything that happened 398 00:22:36.200 --> 00:22:39.680 over the last year, especially since the election, you would 399 00:22:39.720 --> 00:22:42.079 think that many of the larger companies would not be 400 00:22:42.160 --> 00:22:45.680 interested in Scope three. But what we're seeing is a 401 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:48.920