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<v Speaker 1>Imagine a situation where Russia attacks Amazon warehouses. Think of

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<v Speaker 1>what that would mean for the prices of clothes, books,

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<v Speaker 1>gifts that you order online. Will they rise? Will your

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<v Speaker 1>deliveries be delayed or destroyed? These are questions Russians are

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<v Speaker 1>currently grapping with because Ukraine is attacking Russia's Amazon. Wild

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<v Speaker 1>Berries is Russia's largest online marketplace, commonly referred to as

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<v Speaker 1>Russia's Amazon, and for nearly three weeks now, Ukraine has

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<v Speaker 1>attacked more than a dozen of its warehouses and storage

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<v Speaker 1>facilities across Russia and occupied Crimea. Ukraine says these are

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<v Speaker 1>providing logistics support to the Russian military. Let's get more

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<v Speaker 1>from a fabri sport here. He CEO at Prismus and

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<v Speaker 1>Global and in National political consultancy firm, and he was

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<v Speaker 1>also former director of Policy Planning at NATO for six years.

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<v Speaker 1>If I'm not wrong for breeze, welcome, thanks for making

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<v Speaker 1>the time. They have been repeated Ukrainian attacks, including overnight

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<v Speaker 1>on wild Berries facilities. Why is Ukraine attacking wild Berries?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, clearly there are different purposes here that are being

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<v Speaker 2>pursued by the Ukrainian forces.

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<v Speaker 3>First, Whiteberries is.

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<v Speaker 2>Clearly aiding the Russian war economy by supplying its armed forces,

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<v Speaker 2>which you can assume means also supplying the whole logistic

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<v Speaker 2>effort from Russia to occupy Ukraine. So that's one objective,

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<v Speaker 2>but clearly there is a bigger objective at Plague here,

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<v Speaker 2>which is too, in a way bring.

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<v Speaker 3>Back war to its center.

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<v Speaker 2>To continue on the mailing and Amazon image here, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think they're going after a chalk point and Whiteberry is,

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<v Speaker 2>like you said earlier, the Russian Amazon and therefore is

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<v Speaker 2>in a way a shock point of the Russian society

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<v Speaker 2>and economy. And look at the level of debt of

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<v Speaker 2>the company, ten million dollars of debt. This means that

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<v Speaker 2>this company has to be supported by the state owned banks.

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<v Speaker 3>If not, if it were to go down, if it

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<v Speaker 3>were to go bankrupt, it will probably have a domino

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<v Speaker 3>effect on the economy.

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<v Speaker 4>So in a way, just to conclude here, I think

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<v Speaker 4>around the Ukrainians are trying to aid target one of

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<v Speaker 4>the companies that is supporting the Russian war machine, be

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<v Speaker 4>trying to also disrupt the way of life, the Russian

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<v Speaker 4>way of life, and bring war back to where it

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<v Speaker 4>comes from. And see I think it's trying to create

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<v Speaker 4>a kind of economic sension through kinetic means, because it's

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<v Speaker 4>putting further pressure on the Russian economy.

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<v Speaker 1>A number of things to pass through, a number of

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<v Speaker 1>things to discuss. Let's take up that first idea that

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<v Speaker 1>Ukraine says this that wild Berries is helping the Russian

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<v Speaker 1>military with logistics. You also have the wild Berry CEO,

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<v Speaker 1>Tatiana Kim, calling Ukraine quote terrorists, and she tried to

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<v Speaker 1>push back against this Ukrainian claim that terrorists that I'm

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<v Speaker 1>sorry that wild Berries is supporting the Russian military. Let's

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<v Speaker 1>just listen to what she had to say.

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<v Speaker 5>When attacking US terrorists cover up their true motives and

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<v Speaker 5>accuse us of allegedly selling military goods. But you can

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<v Speaker 5>go on any global marketplace like Amazon or Ali Baba

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<v Speaker 5>and see if we have what they don't. There's no logic,

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<v Speaker 5>common sense, or rationality in the terrorists' actions, and there

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<v Speaker 5>can be none. The enemy itself has publicly stated that

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<v Speaker 5>the attacks on wild Berries are aimed at ordinary citizens.

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<v Speaker 1>All right, So that was a se there. So is

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<v Speaker 1>this an attack at ordinary citizens or an attack at

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<v Speaker 1>a company that is allegedly supporting the Russian war effort?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, first, as you mentioned This is the CEO, and

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<v Speaker 2>this is the richest woman in Russia, and she this

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<v Speaker 2>is open source.

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<v Speaker 3>She has a close relationship with Vladimir Puttin.

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<v Speaker 2>Her company was merged with another company some years ago

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<v Speaker 2>which was entirely supported by the Kremlin. So, and I

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<v Speaker 2>think it's important to realize that the Russian economy is

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<v Speaker 2>not a civilian economy in the in the census in

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<v Speaker 2>Germany or anywhere else in the European Union.

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<v Speaker 3>This is an.

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<v Speaker 6>Economy where the oldigachs have been asked explicitly by Vladimi

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<v Speaker 6>Puttin to support the war efforts, to both give cash

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<v Speaker 6>to basically public coffers, but also to mobilize the companies

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<v Speaker 6>and the production capacity two for the warfort This is

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<v Speaker 6>a country where more than ten percent of the GDP

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<v Speaker 6>goes into military capabilities.

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<v Speaker 3>So there's nothing, there's.

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<v Speaker 2>No clear demarcation that we say, as in other mobilign

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<v Speaker 2>peaceful societies between war and peace.

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<v Speaker 3>And so you can assume that.

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<v Speaker 2>Wildeberry, being such a building block of the Russian economy,

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<v Speaker 2>is also directly and indirectly supporting this and supporting possibly

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<v Speaker 2>the logistic of.

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<v Speaker 3>The Russian forces.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think it's important to focus on the peculiarity

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<v Speaker 2>of the Vladimir put In war economy and the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that the largest one of the largest Russian company cannot

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<v Speaker 2>be said to be outside this war economy.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but I'm trying to understand wild Berries is, Yes,

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<v Speaker 1>of course the largest online retailer in Russia. But how

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<v Speaker 1>does targeting wild Berries have such a big impact on

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<v Speaker 1>the Russian war effort?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, look at where the Ukrainians have also been doing

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<v Speaker 2>against the Russian logistic clients to resupply Crimea. I think

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<v Speaker 2>you can see there's a very deliberate strategy since I

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<v Speaker 2>would say three four months, to except pressure not just

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<v Speaker 2>on the Russian troops that are illegally occupying the Ukrainian territory,

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<v Speaker 2>but on everything that supports these troops.

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<v Speaker 3>So I think this is part of this.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of in depth or depth deep sorry strike and

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<v Speaker 2>pressure points that the Ukrainians are creating on the Russian

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<v Speaker 2>world port.

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<v Speaker 1>You were talking earlier about its connection to the Russian

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<v Speaker 1>banking network. I mean the name VTB the Russian bank

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<v Speaker 1>comes up. What more can you tell us about that

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<v Speaker 1>and what is the leverage here that Ukraine potentially has.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, clearly, I think what you are contemplating here is

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<v Speaker 2>that most probably VTB, a state owned bank, will have

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<v Speaker 2>to bail out a wine Berry which, as I mentioned,

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<v Speaker 2>is completely over leverage and therefore needs some public injection

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<v Speaker 2>or injection of public money. And I think it's important

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<v Speaker 2>to realize what it means right now for the Russian

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<v Speaker 2>and economy, which is already overheating, that is already at

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<v Speaker 2>a high inflation, highly leveraged economy, which is trying to

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<v Speaker 2>actually bring that low economy inflation to a cooler level.

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<v Speaker 2>So this is obviously going to create further pressure on

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<v Speaker 2>Putting's wat chest and creating a more complicated economic situation

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<v Speaker 2>for him, which is I think what the Ukrainians are

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<v Speaker 2>trying to do. This might not be producing a decisive outcome,

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<v Speaker 2>This might not be producing a reverse of Putting's position

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<v Speaker 2>on Ukraine, but this might actually start putting a higher

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<v Speaker 2>cost on what he's doing there.

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<v Speaker 1>How many times over the past few years have we

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<v Speaker 1>had a conversation about putting pressure on the Russian economy.

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<v Speaker 1>We've talked about European sanctions, We've talked about US sanctions

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<v Speaker 1>until the war goes on. We're entering the fifth year now,

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, is this going to be the straw that

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<v Speaker 1>breaks the camel's back or is this going to be

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<v Speaker 1>more of the same.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, it's a good question.

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<v Speaker 2>I think clearly we're saying that there is no straw

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<v Speaker 2>that breaks the camels back as such, but there is

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<v Speaker 2>an escalation of the economic cost of Putin's action and

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<v Speaker 2>illegal invasion of Ukraine, and I think that's why the

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<v Speaker 2>Ukrainians are trying to do food this.

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<v Speaker 3>In depth strike.

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<v Speaker 1>Earlier, you were talking about the impact on Russian consumers.

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<v Speaker 1>We are, of course talking about the largest online retailer,

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<v Speaker 1>the online marketplace in Russia. Do you think the Russia's

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<v Speaker 1>consumers do you not think that they're I don't know,

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<v Speaker 1>very resilient. And the reason I bring this up is

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<v Speaker 1>because remember at the start of the war, lots of

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<v Speaker 1>Western brands left the country, So Starbucks, I Kia, these

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<v Speaker 1>are the brands that left. There were other Russian entities

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<v Speaker 1>that replaced them. I think what is it? It is

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<v Speaker 1>stars Coffee replaced Starbucks, Redhouse replaced Ikea, and do Not

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<v Speaker 1>all replaced Dunkin. So they always appear to be alternatives

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<v Speaker 1>that Russia is able to create for its consumers. Do

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<v Speaker 1>you think something like that could potentially happen here. Given

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<v Speaker 1>if you're talking about what seems like a resilient consumer market, well, I.

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<v Speaker 2>Think brasilient, but also paying a much higher price because

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<v Speaker 2>actually it's not entirely correct that the Russians have been

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<v Speaker 2>going for alternative brands. They're actually willing to pay a

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<v Speaker 2>premium to buy the same goods that were.

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<v Speaker 7>Buying before directly from Western brands, but this time via

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<v Speaker 7>alternate you know, secondary economies like Central Asia and other

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<v Speaker 7>countries that are still open to do business with.

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<v Speaker 3>Russia, and they're paying it extremely high premium for this.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think they're not given up on their addiction

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<v Speaker 2>to luxury and comfort.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think this is also what the Ukrainians are

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<v Speaker 3>trying to do.

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<v Speaker 2>They're trying to inject the notion that their country, Russia,

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<v Speaker 2>has waged.

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<v Speaker 3>A five year illegal war against Ukraine. And you come do.

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<v Speaker 2>That from sitting comfortably in your Russian living room.

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<v Speaker 3>Ordering goods on white Berry.

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<v Speaker 2>There is a cost to that, because this is a

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<v Speaker 2>whole of a country effort. This is not a benign society.

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<v Speaker 2>It's important to realize this. Let me put In has

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<v Speaker 2>been in power for twenty years. There's a put In

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<v Speaker 2>generation here, and the Russian population holds some degree of

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<v Speaker 2>responsibility to what Putin is doing in Ukraine. If not,

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<v Speaker 2>they would have been actually doing what it takes to

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<v Speaker 2>actually change the.

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<v Speaker 3>Course of things, and they have not done that.

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<v Speaker 8>So I think the Ukrainian are trying to kind of

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<v Speaker 8>really put a cost not just on Puttin's war economy

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<v Speaker 8>and the cost of sustaining it, but also on this

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<v Speaker 8>notion that you can be living in Russia in complete

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<v Speaker 8>luxury and you know, consumer goods.

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<v Speaker 3>Come forth and at the same time.

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<v Speaker 2>Rate kill and destroy the Ukrainian society and country. And

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<v Speaker 2>I think this is why the Ukrainians are trying to

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<v Speaker 2>reverse intern of the table.

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<v Speaker 1>Here we leave it there for the moment. For Brisport

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<v Speaker 1>here a CEO of Arasmusen Global. Always a pleasure talking

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<v Speaker 1>to you, Thanks for the time, pleasure. And with no

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<v Speaker 1>sign of the campaign against wild berries slowing down, we

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<v Speaker 1>will watch with interest to see just how far this

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<v Speaker 1>pressures Russians and the Russian economy. And just this morning

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<v Speaker 1>the company announced that it would build a huge warehouse

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<v Speaker 1>in Kazakhstan, presumably to keep its goods out of harm's way.

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<v Speaker 1>The situation is moving fast. Keep up to date with

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<v Speaker 1>all the leaders here on YouTube or on our app

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<v Speaker 1>or at DW dot com.