Speaker 1: Imagine a situation where Russia attacks Amazon warehouses. Think of
Speaker 1: what that would mean for the prices of clothes, books,
Speaker 1: gifts that you order online. Will they rise? Will your
Speaker 1: deliveries be delayed or destroyed? These are questions Russians are
Speaker 1: currently grapping with because Ukraine is attacking Russia's Amazon. Wild
Speaker 1: Berries is Russia's largest online marketplace, commonly referred to as
Speaker 1: Russia's Amazon, and for nearly three weeks now, Ukraine has
Speaker 1: attacked more than a dozen of its warehouses and storage
Speaker 1: facilities across Russia and occupied Crimea. Ukraine says these are
Speaker 1: providing logistics support to the Russian military. Let's get more
Speaker 1: from a fabri sport here. He CEO at Prismus and
Speaker 1: Global and in National political consultancy firm, and he was
Speaker 1: also former director of Policy Planning at NATO for six years.
Speaker 1: If I'm not wrong for breeze, welcome, thanks for making
Speaker 1: the time. They have been repeated Ukrainian attacks, including overnight
Speaker 1: on wild Berries facilities. Why is Ukraine attacking wild Berries?
Speaker 2: Well, clearly there are different purposes here that are being
Speaker 2: pursued by the Ukrainian forces.
Speaker 3: First, Whiteberries is.
Speaker 2: Clearly aiding the Russian war economy by supplying its armed forces,
Speaker 2: which you can assume means also supplying the whole logistic
Speaker 2: effort from Russia to occupy Ukraine. So that's one objective,
Speaker 2: but clearly there is a bigger objective at Plague here,
Speaker 2: which is too, in a way bring.
Speaker 3: Back war to its center.
Speaker 2: To continue on the mailing and Amazon image here, and
Speaker 2: I think they're going after a chalk point and Whiteberry is,
Speaker 2: like you said earlier, the Russian Amazon and therefore is
Speaker 2: in a way a shock point of the Russian society
Speaker 2: and economy. And look at the level of debt of
Speaker 2: the company, ten million dollars of debt. This means that
Speaker 2: this company has to be supported by the state owned banks.
Speaker 3: If not, if it were to go down, if it
Speaker 3: were to go bankrupt, it will probably have a domino
Speaker 3: effect on the economy.
Speaker 4: So in a way, just to conclude here, I think
Speaker 4: around the Ukrainians are trying to aid target one of
Speaker 4: the companies that is supporting the Russian war machine, be
Speaker 4: trying to also disrupt the way of life, the Russian
Speaker 4: way of life, and bring war back to where it
Speaker 4: comes from. And see I think it's trying to create
Speaker 4: a kind of economic sension through kinetic means, because it's
Speaker 4: putting further pressure on the Russian economy.
Speaker 1: A number of things to pass through, a number of
Speaker 1: things to discuss. Let's take up that first idea that
Speaker 1: Ukraine says this that wild Berries is helping the Russian
Speaker 1: military with logistics. You also have the wild Berry CEO,
Speaker 1: Tatiana Kim, calling Ukraine quote terrorists, and she tried to
Speaker 1: push back against this Ukrainian claim that terrorists that I'm
Speaker 1: sorry that wild Berries is supporting the Russian military. Let's
Speaker 1: just listen to what she had to say.
Speaker 5: When attacking US terrorists cover up their true motives and
Speaker 5: accuse us of allegedly selling military goods. But you can
Speaker 5: go on any global marketplace like Amazon or Ali Baba
Speaker 5: and see if we have what they don't. There's no logic,
Speaker 5: common sense, or rationality in the terrorists' actions, and there
Speaker 5: can be none. The enemy itself has publicly stated that
Speaker 5: the attacks on wild Berries are aimed at ordinary citizens.
Speaker 1: All right, So that was a se there. So is
Speaker 1: this an attack at ordinary citizens or an attack at
Speaker 1: a company that is allegedly supporting the Russian war effort?
Speaker 2: Well, first, as you mentioned This is the CEO, and
Speaker 2: this is the richest woman in Russia, and she this
Speaker 2: is open source.
Speaker 3: She has a close relationship with Vladimir Puttin.
Speaker 2: Her company was merged with another company some years ago
Speaker 2: which was entirely supported by the Kremlin. So, and I
Speaker 2: think it's important to realize that the Russian economy is
Speaker 2: not a civilian economy in the in the census in
Speaker 2: Germany or anywhere else in the European Union.
Speaker 3: This is an.
Speaker 6: Economy where the oldigachs have been asked explicitly by Vladimi
Speaker 6: Puttin to support the war efforts, to both give cash
Speaker 6: to basically public coffers, but also to mobilize the companies
Speaker 6: and the production capacity two for the warfort This is
Speaker 6: a country where more than ten percent of the GDP
Speaker 6: goes into military capabilities.
Speaker 3: So there's nothing, there's.
Speaker 2: No clear demarcation that we say, as in other mobilign
Speaker 2: peaceful societies between war and peace.
Speaker 3: And so you can assume that.
Speaker 2: Wildeberry, being such a building block of the Russian economy,
Speaker 2: is also directly and indirectly supporting this and supporting possibly
Speaker 2: the logistic of.
Speaker 3: The Russian forces.
Speaker 2: So I think it's important to focus on the peculiarity
Speaker 2: of the Vladimir put In war economy and the fact
Speaker 2: that the largest one of the largest Russian company cannot
Speaker 2: be said to be outside this war economy.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I'm trying to understand wild Berries is, Yes,
Speaker 1: of course the largest online retailer in Russia. But how
Speaker 1: does targeting wild Berries have such a big impact on
Speaker 1: the Russian war effort?
Speaker 2: Well, look at where the Ukrainians have also been doing
Speaker 2: against the Russian logistic clients to resupply Crimea. I think
Speaker 2: you can see there's a very deliberate strategy since I
Speaker 2: would say three four months, to except pressure not just
Speaker 2: on the Russian troops that are illegally occupying the Ukrainian territory,
Speaker 2: but on everything that supports these troops.
Speaker 3: So I think this is part of this.
Speaker 2: Kind of in depth or depth deep sorry strike and
Speaker 2: pressure points that the Ukrainians are creating on the Russian
Speaker 2: world port.
Speaker 1: You were talking earlier about its connection to the Russian
Speaker 1: banking network. I mean the name VTB the Russian bank
Speaker 1: comes up. What more can you tell us about that
Speaker 1: and what is the leverage here that Ukraine potentially has.
Speaker 2: Well, clearly, I think what you are contemplating here is
Speaker 2: that most probably VTB, a state owned bank, will have
Speaker 2: to bail out a wine Berry which, as I mentioned,
Speaker 2: is completely over leverage and therefore needs some public injection
Speaker 2: or injection of public money. And I think it's important
Speaker 2: to realize what it means right now for the Russian
Speaker 2: and economy, which is already overheating, that is already at
Speaker 2: a high inflation, highly leveraged economy, which is trying to
Speaker 2: actually bring that low economy inflation to a cooler level.
Speaker 2: So this is obviously going to create further pressure on
Speaker 2: Putting's wat chest and creating a more complicated economic situation
Speaker 2: for him, which is I think what the Ukrainians are
Speaker 2: trying to do. This might not be producing a decisive outcome,
Speaker 2: This might not be producing a reverse of Putting's position
Speaker 2: on Ukraine, but this might actually start putting a higher
Speaker 2: cost on what he's doing there.
Speaker 1: How many times over the past few years have we
Speaker 1: had a conversation about putting pressure on the Russian economy.
Speaker 1: We've talked about European sanctions, We've talked about US sanctions
Speaker 1: until the war goes on. We're entering the fifth year now,
Speaker 1: I mean, is this going to be the straw that
Speaker 1: breaks the camel's back or is this going to be
Speaker 1: more of the same.
Speaker 3: Well, it's a good question.
Speaker 2: I think clearly we're saying that there is no straw
Speaker 2: that breaks the camels back as such, but there is
Speaker 2: an escalation of the economic cost of Putin's action and
Speaker 2: illegal invasion of Ukraine, and I think that's why the
Speaker 2: Ukrainians are trying to do food this.
Speaker 3: In depth strike.
Speaker 1: Earlier, you were talking about the impact on Russian consumers.
Speaker 1: We are, of course talking about the largest online retailer,
Speaker 1: the online marketplace in Russia. Do you think the Russia's
Speaker 1: consumers do you not think that they're I don't know,
Speaker 1: very resilient. And the reason I bring this up is
Speaker 1: because remember at the start of the war, lots of
Speaker 1: Western brands left the country, So Starbucks, I Kia, these
Speaker 1: are the brands that left. There were other Russian entities
Speaker 1: that replaced them. I think what is it? It is
Speaker 1: stars Coffee replaced Starbucks, Redhouse replaced Ikea, and do Not
Speaker 1: all replaced Dunkin. So they always appear to be alternatives
Speaker 1: that Russia is able to create for its consumers. Do
Speaker 1: you think something like that could potentially happen here. Given
Speaker 1: if you're talking about what seems like a resilient consumer market, well, I.
Speaker 2: Think brasilient, but also paying a much higher price because
Speaker 2: actually it's not entirely correct that the Russians have been
Speaker 2: going for alternative brands. They're actually willing to pay a
Speaker 2: premium to buy the same goods that were.
Speaker 7: Buying before directly from Western brands, but this time via
Speaker 7: alternate you know, secondary economies like Central Asia and other
Speaker 7: countries that are still open to do business with.
Speaker 3: Russia, and they're paying it extremely high premium for this.
Speaker 2: So I think they're not given up on their addiction
Speaker 2: to luxury and comfort.
Speaker 3: And I think this is also what the Ukrainians are
Speaker 3: trying to do.
Speaker 2: They're trying to inject the notion that their country, Russia,
Speaker 2: has waged.
Speaker 3: A five year illegal war against Ukraine. And you come do.
Speaker 2: That from sitting comfortably in your Russian living room.
Speaker 3: Ordering goods on white Berry.
Speaker 2: There is a cost to that, because this is a
Speaker 2: whole of a country effort. This is not a benign society.
Speaker 2: It's important to realize this. Let me put In has
Speaker 2: been in power for twenty years. There's a put In
Speaker 2: generation here, and the Russian population holds some degree of
Speaker 2: responsibility to what Putin is doing in Ukraine. If not,
Speaker 2: they would have been actually doing what it takes to
Speaker 2: actually change the.
Speaker 3: Course of things, and they have not done that.
Speaker 8: So I think the Ukrainian are trying to kind of
Speaker 8: really put a cost not just on Puttin's war economy
Speaker 8: and the cost of sustaining it, but also on this
Speaker 8: notion that you can be living in Russia in complete
Speaker 8: luxury and you know, consumer goods.
Speaker 3: Come forth and at the same time.
Speaker 2: Rate kill and destroy the Ukrainian society and country. And
Speaker 2: I think this is why the Ukrainians are trying to
Speaker 2: reverse intern of the table.
Speaker 1: Here we leave it there for the moment. For Brisport
Speaker 1: here a CEO of Arasmusen Global. Always a pleasure talking
Speaker 1: to you, Thanks for the time, pleasure. And with no
Speaker 1: sign of the campaign against wild berries slowing down, we
Speaker 1: will watch with interest to see just how far this
Speaker 1: pressures Russians and the Russian economy. And just this morning
Speaker 1: the company announced that it would build a huge warehouse
Speaker 1: in Kazakhstan, presumably to keep its goods out of harm's way.
Speaker 1: The situation is moving fast. Keep up to date with
Speaker 1: all the leaders here on YouTube or on our app
Speaker 1: or at DW dot com.