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Speaker 3: You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking
Speaker 3: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 3: written about trum Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 3: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 3: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 3: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 4: Good evening. Long before the era of young people committing
Speaker 4: mass murder became a too common event, sixteen year old
Speaker 4: Harry Hebert made world news when he killed all five
Speaker 4: members of his family and Kennedy era Green Bay, Wisconsin.
Speaker 4: Here to be a relatively normal teenager, a member of
Speaker 4: the high school track team, Harry harbored a deep resentment
Speaker 4: that would make its ugly appearance on a cold winter's
Speaker 4: day in nineteen sixty three. In systematically systemically executing his family,
Speaker 4: Harry became his first the first documented teenage mass murderer
Speaker 4: in Wisconsin history. Criminal profile veteran Steve Daniels details Harry's
Speaker 4: case and provides insight into what makes Harry and other
Speaker 4: mass murderers tick. The book that we're featuring this evening
Speaker 4: is Harry, a study of teenage mass murderers with my
Speaker 4: special guest, journalist and author and former law enforcement member,
Speaker 4: Steve Daniels. Welcome to the program, and thank you very
Speaker 4: much for this interview. Steve Daniel, thanks for having me.
Speaker 5: I appreciate you so much.
Speaker 4: Thank you so much. Let's start off as you do
Speaker 4: you had, please tell us about your twenty six years
Speaker 4: and criminal justice system and what your role was, especially
Speaker 4: in the last twelve years before we talk about the
Speaker 4: influences that brought you to this profiling and this criminal
Speaker 4: justice career.
Speaker 5: I started out in corrections in Wisconsin, in the drug
Speaker 5: treatment program for heavily addicted inmates, those that used a needle,
Speaker 5: those that did a lot of the harder drugs. When
Speaker 5: an opening came available in Green Bay and Probation and Parole,
Speaker 5: I transferred up and became a parole agent about a
Speaker 5: few years into it. The last twelve years of my career,
Speaker 5: I was a higher risk agent, and that meant that
Speaker 5: the offenders on my caseload were considered assaulted and dangerous,
Speaker 5: and they were on the streets. I saw them many times,
Speaker 5: multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day, at
Speaker 5: their job, at their home, in my office, any of
Speaker 5: the individuals that were considered dangerous on my caseload, the
Speaker 5: majority of them had at least one murder on their record.
Speaker 5: That's how I became really interested in homicide. One individual
Speaker 5: I can tell you about was another mass murder case.
Speaker 5: He killed his a fifteen year old, killed his father, mother, brother,
Speaker 5: and wounded his sister, left her for dead. And because
Speaker 5: at that particular time in Wisconsin, he was too young
Speaker 5: to wave into adult court, so he did three and
Speaker 5: a half years in a juvenile prison for three and
Speaker 5: a half murders, got out and re entered the system
Speaker 5: as an adult, and because of his juvenile record three homicides,
Speaker 5: he was on my caseload and he was considered dangerous
Speaker 5: in the community. So I got to know murderers pretty well.
Speaker 5: I had a couple of family annihilators, that's what you
Speaker 5: call individuals that killed their entire family, and Harry happened
Speaker 5: to be one of them. But he was an institutional case.
Speaker 5: So if someone is in a prison, they have to
Speaker 5: have an agent available them on the streets just in
Speaker 5: case they get out. So Harry was on my institution caseload,
Speaker 5: and that's how I got to know him.
Speaker 4: Right, you talk you write about it in this book too,
Speaker 4: that about your late father. Norman Daniels tell us a
Speaker 4: little bit about his influence in year of decision to
Speaker 4: go into law enforcement, but also his involvement in every
Speaker 4: case that's written about in this book, No, not.
Speaker 5: Every case that's written about. His involvement that really got
Speaker 5: me started was with Harry. I was in eighth grade
Speaker 5: and he was gone for days and days at a time.
Speaker 5: He'd come home and take a shower and get two
Speaker 5: hours sleep, and then he'd be gone again because this
Speaker 5: case was such magnificent proportions. So I would sit and
Speaker 5: listen to him talk. And as the year progressed, I
Speaker 5: became more and more interested in the criminal mind and
Speaker 5: in the law enforcement career. And I remember when I
Speaker 5: was older, an older teenager sometimes home from college. He
Speaker 5: would come home from a murder scene. And I'll tell you,
Speaker 5: the last murder that he worked on was absolutely horrific.
Speaker 5: His hair turned white, his face kind of got gray
Speaker 5: and saggy, and he was smoking really heavily. So there
Speaker 5: are many victims to murder. But he would come home
Speaker 5: and I'd be waiting up for him, and we'd sit
Speaker 5: in the family room and I'd ask him questions about
Speaker 5: the murder and he would tell me and we talk
Speaker 5: about homicide, and that is when I really that's the
Speaker 5: hook that caught me. So when I went to college,
Speaker 5: I decided, I'm in a major in criminal justice and
Speaker 5: do something in the system. The last murder he worked
Speaker 5: on that was, like I said, that changed his life dramatically.
Speaker 5: I think it killed him early. A bunch of outlaw
Speaker 5: bikers held a woman against her will in a bar
Speaker 5: on New Year's Eve, and they sexually assaulted her and
Speaker 5: broke some of her bones and beat her severely, and
Speaker 5: then they took her out to a kind of a
Speaker 5: garbage dump and cut her throat and then left her.
Speaker 5: And she had enough about her to walk to the
Speaker 5: highway and then died on the side of the highway
Speaker 5: with her head almost cut off. And that was late
Speaker 5: early in the morning on New Year's Day, and they
Speaker 5: called him in and he was gone forever for that case.
Speaker 5: I rarely saw him unless he came home late and
Speaker 5: I waited.
Speaker 4: Up for him.
Speaker 5: So he wasn't really all that thrill that I was
Speaker 5: going to go into the criminal justice system, because he
Speaker 5: knew that it was, you know, the hours were terrible.
Speaker 5: I was going to be away from home, and you know,
Speaker 5: we weren't really appreciated back then. Remember they used to
Speaker 5: call policeman pigs back in that time, so he wasn't
Speaker 5: enthralled with my choice. But anyway, I decided to go.
Speaker 4: Now you have a couple people, doctor David Walters tell
Speaker 4: us about his influence and his influence on your career.
Speaker 5: David Walters was a unique man. He was an inmate
Speaker 5: in the prison system in Florida. When he got out,
Speaker 5: he worked his way up through the ranks of the
Speaker 5: criminal justice system, got a PhD, and became a warden
Speaker 5: at one of the prisons in Florida, and he came
Speaker 5: to Wisconsin University, Wisconsin, Oshkosh, where I was going, and
Speaker 5: he was one of the influences in my life because
Speaker 5: he made the criminal justice programming in classes so interesting,
Speaker 5: so realistic, and so hands on that it almost well
Speaker 5: was not almost. It made me feel good to be
Speaker 5: choosing this particular path in my life, even though, as
Speaker 5: I mentioned, criminal justice studies and police science and those
Speaker 5: things were not popular back when I was going to
Speaker 5: college in the sixties and seventies, But it didn't matter
Speaker 5: to me. Because he made the classes so phenomenal. I
Speaker 5: think of my major. I think I had four classes
Speaker 5: with him, juvenile delinquency, criminology, penealogy, in one other one
Speaker 5: that kind of slips my memory right now. But no,
Speaker 5: he was a wonderful man and a really good teacher.
Speaker 4: You say, there's a second figure, another person named well,
Speaker 4: Richard Walter. He was a scholar. What did he impart too?
Speaker 4: What was his influence?
Speaker 5: He was a social worker in Michigan in the prison
Speaker 5: system and he developed he along with Robert Keppel, who
Speaker 5: was the lead investigator in the Ted Bundy case, they
Speaker 5: developed a new process for profiling and he would do
Speaker 5: seminars around the country. And I went to one of
Speaker 5: his seminars and he had me hooked to. I mean
Speaker 5: the guy, First of all, it looks like a corpse.
Speaker 5: I mean, he looks like a walking cadaver. He's got
Speaker 5: I think he'd got one suit in his black and
Speaker 5: he's just he says, the only exercise he gets is
Speaker 5: from coughing because he smokes so much. But the guy
Speaker 5: is absolutely brilliant. And he was a member of the
Speaker 5: VIDOC Society. And I don't know if your listeners are
Speaker 5: familiar with that. But the VIDOC Society was a private
Speaker 5: organization started by three men. Richard Walter was one of them,
Speaker 5: and they met every Thursday in Philadelphia and people agencies
Speaker 5: from around the country would bring their cold cases and
Speaker 5: after a gourmet lunch, they would talk about the cold
Speaker 5: case and give the investigating agencies some tips. So we
Speaker 5: were going to start a cold case team here in Wisconsin.
Speaker 5: I was the chairman of getting it started, and I
Speaker 5: decided we are going to model our coal case team
Speaker 5: after the VIDOC Society, except we wouldn't have a gourmet lunch.
Speaker 5: We have bagels. But I flew out to Philadelphia and
Speaker 5: spent three days with Richard, and the first two days
Speaker 5: he spent all the time with me, telling me about profiling,
Speaker 5: telling me about some of his ideas pre killing behavior,
Speaker 5: post killing behavior, and how that's important to profile the killer.
Speaker 5: And then on the third day I went to a
Speaker 5: bide Ox Society meeting and sat in while they profile
Speaker 5: the cold case from South Carolina. So I brought that
Speaker 5: information back to Wisconsin with me and started our cold
Speaker 5: case team here and we are still functioning today.
Speaker 4: Right now, let's get to this study of teenage mass murderers.
Speaker 4: With the focus on this Harry Hebert and Green Bay, Wisconsin.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about Green Bay, Wisconsin for
Speaker 4: people that don't really know much about it at that time.
Speaker 4: You talk about the population about sixty three thousand, So
Speaker 4: tell us just a little bit about green Bay, Wisconsin
Speaker 4: its makeup, and then tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: Harry's Hebert's life, his family life with father Jack.
Speaker 5: And so green Bay back then, like like you said,
Speaker 5: was about sixty thousand people. It was except for the
Speaker 5: Native American population right next door to us. Virtually it
Speaker 5: was one hundred percent white. Back then. The only black
Speaker 5: individuals we had in town were usually packers, and it
Speaker 5: was a ross belt city, and the paper plants were
Speaker 5: just prominent in the whole economy. But the emissions from
Speaker 5: the paper plants were so horrendous. I mean, they would
Speaker 5: actually make your eyes water and it absolutely smelled. They've
Speaker 5: cleaned that up since it was kind of like a
Speaker 5: place you might see on a Christmas card. They had
Speaker 5: unbelievable great windows in a department store. On Thanksgiving and
Speaker 5: beyond animated puppets, et cetera. People would finish Thanksgiving dinner
Speaker 5: and go and watch these these puppets. There was an
Speaker 5: elderly lady that sat in a booth outside and played
Speaker 5: Christmas records over loud speakers on these street lights. It
Speaker 5: was middle class, maybe middle to lower crime was probably
Speaker 5: not really all that rampant back then. I think the
Speaker 5: one that really woke everybody up was obviously Hairy, And
Speaker 5: what happened there Green Bay was well, I want to say,
Speaker 5: I don't want to say behind the times, but it
Speaker 5: was really slow living, probably some of the kind of
Speaker 5: stuff you might have seen on some of the TV
Speaker 5: shows back then. The holidays were wonderful. Halloween was great.
Speaker 5: You know, the kids would rush home and gulp their
Speaker 5: suppers down and put their costumes on, and everybody would
Speaker 5: go out trick or treating and Halloween and nobody worried
Speaker 5: about you know, pins and or poison in candy back then.
Speaker 5: So it was really kind of a simple time. But
Speaker 5: Harry really changed all that pretty dramatically.
Speaker 4: Tell us about his family life with his father kind
Speaker 4: of he was sixteen years old when this happened, but
Speaker 4: you go back and tell a little bit about his
Speaker 4: background before that and the living situation that he was
Speaker 4: in at that time.
Speaker 5: Harry was in a blended family at the time. There
Speaker 5: was his dad, Jack, who was really not a very
Speaker 5: pleasant human being, and there was his mother who was
Speaker 5: from a different marriage. His brother John or stepbrother John
Speaker 5: from another marriage, and his mother Joyce, and the sisters
Speaker 5: Janice and Judy. They were all part of the blended family.
Speaker 5: Jack was very stoic. He was also a dare deevil.
Speaker 5: He would get shot out of a cannon and he
Speaker 5: would daredevil racing, and he always made Harry come with
Speaker 5: him and clean up the mess and do some of
Speaker 5: the parts, fix some of the parts in some of
Speaker 5: the cars, and some of the things that exploded in
Speaker 5: the fair. Harry was really unremarkable, I mean really unremarkable.
Speaker 5: He was probably a C student, did not like school,
Speaker 5: really enjoyed after school. He was on the track team,
Speaker 5: a pole of alter and he would make full length
Speaker 5: football fields and line them off for the kids in
Speaker 5: the neighborhood to play. And he really enjoyed sports. He
Speaker 5: did not enjoy helping his dad, and that became a
Speaker 5: bone of contention. I believe that Harry's dad was a
Speaker 5: very abusive man, really abusive I think to his wife.
Speaker 5: There are episodes where people saw him grabbing her arm
Speaker 5: and twisting it. And on one occasion she was having
Speaker 5: coffee and cigarettes with a friend and said that she
Speaker 5: bought a dress New Year's Eve and that's probably the
Speaker 5: last thresh she's going to buy. So she kind of
Speaker 5: think she had a feeling that something was going to
Speaker 5: happen in that family. As a matter of fact, when
Speaker 5: the murders first occurred and the rumor mill was kind
Speaker 5: of running around, people thought that Jack was probably the
Speaker 5: individual that killed the family and not Harry. I believe
Speaker 5: Harry was abused at very least emotionally, quite possibly physically,
Speaker 5: and I believe there was some sexual abuse in the family,
Speaker 5: maybe toward the twins. But one of the crime scene
Speaker 5: photos of the murder scenario was Jack the dad laying
Speaker 5: on the couch with his pants on zipped and his
Speaker 5: penis out, and a friend of theirs who would come
Speaker 5: to visit Harry said he walked through the family room
Speaker 5: where he was sleeping on the couch like that, and
Speaker 5: it just creeped him out so much that he never
Speaker 5: went back through that room. He always back door. But
Speaker 5: he said, as far as he could tell, the dad
Speaker 5: would sleep like that, you know, whenever he hadn't took
Speaker 5: a nap, which indicates to me that there is some
Speaker 5: kind of sexual friction in that household, now against whom
Speaker 5: I couldn't tell you for sure. Harry never mentioned anything
Speaker 5: about anything, not even his reason for doing the killings.
Speaker 5: So but do I believe there was abuse? Yes, Harry's
Speaker 5: mother lived in Lacrosse and apparently didn't want to have
Speaker 5: him around. So when Jack got Harry as a younger kid,
Speaker 5: he was pretty ragtag, tattered clothes, absolutely filthy feet. From
Speaker 5: everything I've read, his dad has spent a couple of
Speaker 5: days scrubbing him. So he was at the very least
Speaker 5: neglected with his mother. So he goes from neglect to
Speaker 5: potential abuse, and obviously that has that must have played
Speaker 5: some role in his mind, you know, to to set
Speaker 5: off the killings.
Speaker 4: You also write about stepmother Joyce, and it seemed that
Speaker 4: she had a plan to escape this marriage. He wasn't
Speaker 4: happy in this marriage with Jack either, and possibly that
Speaker 4: Harry might have heard a conversation regarding that escape from
Speaker 4: the marriage.
Speaker 5: Yes, Now, the plan from Joyce was mentioned, but as
Speaker 5: far as I can tell, it was never detailed, so
Speaker 5: she may have set it to a friend maybe in
Speaker 5: passing or like I said, when we were sitting around
Speaker 5: smoking and drinking coffee, and I believe Harry may have
Speaker 5: overheard that and it kind of sets something off, like
Speaker 5: he didn't want his family to break up, although I
Speaker 5: find that really difficult to believe, because he was at
Speaker 5: odds with his stepbrother continually and his dad, like I said,
Speaker 5: was probably abusive, so it was not a happy household
Speaker 5: by any stretch of the imagination. So I think that
Speaker 5: got Harry into planning what he was going to do.
Speaker 5: And like many adolescents, you know, the plan may seem
Speaker 5: detailed to him, but it's kind of haphazard and certainly
Speaker 5: can't be carried out. So anyway, that takes Harry to
Speaker 5: January in nineteen sixty three, and that's when the murders occurred.
Speaker 4: Now you say that he, despite being immature, he had
Speaker 4: a written plan, and you provide that in this book.
Speaker 4: So the pre slaughter plans, what are those? Tell us
Speaker 4: some of the checklists that he had, and it's demonstrative
Speaker 4: of this immaturity that you speak of.
Speaker 5: Yell Well, he after the killings, police searched his locker
Speaker 5: and in one of the textbooks they found a plan
Speaker 5: that he had written out and it was basically automatic
Speaker 5: twenty two rifle and loaded. So we wanted to get
Speaker 5: the gun. And some of this part does not make
Speaker 5: any sense at all. Have your feet wrapped in towels
Speaker 5: or rags, okay, And I think that was probably not
Speaker 5: to get blood on him and to maybe wipe stuff
Speaker 5: up on the floor. But then a few down there
Speaker 5: it says, get rid of the towels or rags and
Speaker 5: walk around in bare feet to all the bodies. I
Speaker 5: can't make headner tails out of that. But he had
Speaker 5: in the plan hit dad and mom first. Then as
Speaker 5: they come in. And I believe that someone that's going
Speaker 5: to commit a mass murder they choose who's going to
Speaker 5: be first by one of two reasons. It's the person
Speaker 5: that gave them the most abuse or the person they
Speaker 5: believe they have to get rid of so that they
Speaker 5: can complete the act. And Harry's dad fit into both
Speaker 5: of those categories. I mean, his dad was the strongest
Speaker 5: and he was home first, So you hit dad first
Speaker 5: and then get him out of the way, and then
Speaker 5: mom because she's maybe the next I don't know, the
Speaker 5: next obstacle. However, it didn't work that way. He was
Speaker 5: going to take all of his money and hide it
Speaker 5: in the closet, and then he was going to shoe
Speaker 5: himself in the right arm and the right leg and
Speaker 5: then call the police or wait to get discovered, whichever one.
Speaker 5: That meant that I have no idea. But there was
Speaker 5: some more. He had a checklist he needed to get money,
Speaker 5: and he calls it crap, and I think it means
Speaker 5: his belongings, food, sleeping materials, clothes, weapons, cigarettes he didn't smoke,
Speaker 5: school locker check that out, and materials to take to
Speaker 5: the Pulaski Boys. The Pulaski is a small town, maybe
Speaker 5: twenty minutes from Green Bay, and his friends lived there,
Speaker 5: and that's where he was going to go and stay
Speaker 5: with them. He wanted to have the guns lift, he
Speaker 5: wanted to have lay up somewhere after the murders. See
Speaker 5: this will tell you the immaturity of the plan. That
Speaker 5: he didn't already get that he was going to go
Speaker 5: to Pulaski High School and enrolled by another name. Well,
Speaker 5: not ever thinking that you know, the authorities at the
Speaker 5: high school we're going to say, well, where's your mom
Speaker 5: and dad and where's your school records? How come you're
Speaker 5: coming here, and so that would obviously that wasn't going
Speaker 5: to work. But he was captured the next day, so
Speaker 5: none of his plan really had to go into effect.
Speaker 4: But let's let's let's talk about what happened a month before,
Speaker 4: because you talk about precipitating factors and this is very,
Speaker 4: very important. So what happened the month before? You say
Speaker 4: that Harry and his stepbrother John and a friend were
Speaker 4: caught shoplifting. Now, this incident, along with the poor grades
Speaker 4: in school and this bad relationship with John, and some
Speaker 4: indications that Harry was thinking of running away, what did
Speaker 4: his parents do about a month before?
Speaker 5: Is well, after all that happened, they had Harry go
Speaker 5: into therapy and he only made it to one session,
Speaker 5: didn't go to any others. So obviously there was some
Speaker 5: underlying things that were really starting to gnaw at Harry.
Speaker 5: The shoplifting was part of it, the idea that he
Speaker 5: couldn't get his driver's license. They wouldn't let him get
Speaker 5: his driver's license, and a friend of his said that
Speaker 5: Harry was really exhibiting some strange, strange behavior. There was
Speaker 5: a dog in the neighborhood that was wounded and they
Speaker 5: believed that Harry was the one that shot that dog.
Speaker 5: Animal cruelty, and this is pretty disgusting, but there was
Speaker 5: a mushal basket in the backyard behind Harry's house and
Speaker 5: it was full of human feces, and they believed that
Speaker 5: Harry was going outside to use the restroom. I mean,
Speaker 5: so it's this real strange, strange mindset that's kind of
Speaker 5: focusing in. And then Harry was, excuse me, stealing some
Speaker 5: of the twin sisters underwear, and they believe that he
Speaker 5: was doing heavily involved in masturbation. So you add all
Speaker 5: this together and then you throw in the abuse, and
Speaker 5: I think Harry just finally had enough of everything and
Speaker 5: snapped and never went back to counseling, and then the
Speaker 5: homicides occurred. Harry was a strange and he still is
Speaker 5: a strange man. When he was on my institution, Caseload,
Speaker 5: I went to see him a couple times. He doesn't
Speaker 5: say much. He's never said why he did the killings,
Speaker 5: but he was a strange young man, and I think
Speaker 5: that all came to a head and really set him
Speaker 5: off until February.
Speaker 4: Let's talk about what happens. You talk about his plan.
Speaker 4: He has a plan. He enlists a friend in this plan,
Speaker 4: and that's not so unusual, as you write in this
Speaker 4: book in other cases. So tell us about this plan
Speaker 4: and you talk about that just before that, he attempted
Speaker 4: to buy a pistol. So what happens in that attempt,
Speaker 4: and tell us a little bit more about his plans
Speaker 4: and what he does that dayful day in February.
Speaker 5: Okay, well, he didn't try to buy a pistol, and
Speaker 5: obviously he was too young, so again another part of
Speaker 5: a plan that doesn't work out. So most teenage mass
Speaker 5: murderers in the early days of mass murder, the weapon
Speaker 5: of choice was usually a family gun Okay, a rifle
Speaker 5: or a pistol. It's not the high tech weaponry that
Speaker 5: there is today. So but Harry wanted his own gun,
Speaker 5: and he did go hunting with his dad on occasion,
Speaker 5: so he knew how to use a gun. But like
Speaker 5: I said, he was too young, so they couldn't they
Speaker 5: couldn't sell it to him. What he did was I
Speaker 5: believe that he tried to enlist a friend. I'm not
Speaker 5: sure how much he told him. He might have told
Speaker 5: him the whole story, but he wanted to be able
Speaker 5: to go to this friend's house and you know, hide
Speaker 5: out for as long as it possibly took again in
Speaker 5: that adolescent mind, because he didn't realize that if a
Speaker 5: family is dead and one family member isn't there anymore,
Speaker 5: that pretty much they're the ones that did it. So
Speaker 5: he got with his friend in Pulaski and said, I'm
Speaker 5: coming to your house. I'll meet you here. You pick
Speaker 5: me up, and we'll go to your house and I
Speaker 5: will stay there for a while. And I'm going to
Speaker 5: do that because and we don't know what the because was.
Speaker 5: Because I'm running away, because I'm going to kill my family,
Speaker 5: because I can't stand this anymore, because I want to
Speaker 5: go to your school. We don't know what the because was.
Speaker 5: It's like a blank line at the end. So but
Speaker 5: Harry had you know, there was two guns in Harry's house,
Speaker 5: a twenty two rifle in the twenty two pistol, which
Speaker 5: he knew how to use both of them. And on
Speaker 5: February eighteenth, nineteen sixty three, at twenty six twenty six
Speaker 5: hazel Wood Lane, it came to a really blood drenched end.
Speaker 5: Harry got the guns. His dad was sleeping on the couch.
Speaker 5: He shot his Dad twice got him out of the way,
Speaker 5: you know, the person that could end the spree quickly.
Speaker 5: So Dad was gone. John, his stepbrother, heard the shooting.
Speaker 5: He was upstairs, came running down the steps. He saw
Speaker 5: Harry with a gun. Harry shot him once, wounded him.
Speaker 5: He turned around to run back up the steps, and
Speaker 5: he shot him again and he died. The girls, the twins,
Speaker 5: were in the kitchen getting dinner, ready to help mom,
Speaker 5: who was grocery shopping, and Harry came into the kitchen
Speaker 5: shot the twins. One of them fell under the kitchen table,
Speaker 5: the other one just fell on the kitchen floor. Mom
Speaker 5: came home with a bag of groceries and came in,
Speaker 5: and she didn't see I don't believe she saw the
Speaker 5: girls right away, the twins. So she came into the
Speaker 5: kitchen to put the groceries on the table, and Harry
Speaker 5: walked in, and I believe he startled her, and he
Speaker 5: shot and killed her, and then decided the rest of
Speaker 5: his plan. Clean it up, you know, pack my stuff,
Speaker 5: put blankets on my feet, wipe up the blood, et cetera.
Speaker 5: So I don't believe the whole event. I don't believe
Speaker 5: the whole event took I don't know fifteen minutes. The
Speaker 5: longest thing to do was wait for mom to get home.
Speaker 5: So and she came home pretty quickly. So this mash
Speaker 5: murder occurred in a very short period of time.
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Speaker 4: off your order. Steve, we were talking about the slaughter
Speaker 4: of this person's family. What you write about even more sinister,
Speaker 4: I think and vicious is that he checks the pulse
Speaker 4: of his siblings and then when they aren't actually dead,
Speaker 4: he shoots them again in the head. So he's very
Speaker 4: accurate and very lethal. Yes, tell us about this plan
Speaker 4: to escape? What does he do after these murders?
Speaker 5: He calls his friend from Pulaski and says, can you
Speaker 5: come and pick me up and bring me to your house.
Speaker 5: His friend picks him up. Obviously, when the police are
Speaker 5: called the next morning, go to the house, Harry's not there. Well,
Speaker 5: they know it's him, and because Pulaski is not in
Speaker 5: the city jurisdiction, it's in the county jurisdiction. The Green
Speaker 5: Bay police contacted the friend and told him they'd like
Speaker 5: to talk to him. So he came into town. A
Speaker 5: deputy sat laid down in the back seat of the car,
Speaker 5: and they went out to the home and the friend
Speaker 5: called or honked or had Harry come outside. And when
Speaker 5: Harry came outside and slid into the front seat, the
Speaker 5: deputy in the back seat arrested him. And that was
Speaker 5: the end of that. I mean, it was not grand
Speaker 5: or glorious, and Harry has been He was in jail
Speaker 5: the day after the killings. He was waved into adult court.
Speaker 5: He couldn't he wasn't found able to aid in his defense,
Speaker 5: so he went to a state mental health facility until
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty eight, five years, came back to Brown County
Speaker 5: for trial, was found guilty and was sentenced to life
Speaker 5: in prison. So Harry, even with his grand plan was
Speaker 5: has not been out in free society since the day
Speaker 5: after the murders.
Speaker 4: Right you talk about this. The sentencing eventually were concurrence sentences.
Speaker 4: So despite the toll that the amount of people that
Speaker 4: he killed, he does have parole hearings. He's always a role.
Speaker 5: Yes. As a matter of fact, that's one of the
Speaker 5: strangest sentencing structures for the crimes that I have ever
Speaker 5: seen in my career. In corrections, there was five bodies,
Speaker 5: five first degree murders in the judge. I don't know
Speaker 5: if it was because of Harry's age or because they
Speaker 5: considered it one event and not five separate events. The
Speaker 5: sentencing sentencings were concurrent, which means you're right, Harry, he
Speaker 5: does get to and has seen the parole board on
Speaker 5: a number of occasions. And because back then you could
Speaker 5: see the parle board after thirteen point four years, I think,
Speaker 5: and because all of his sentences that work together, he
Speaker 5: only got to see him after thirteen point four years.
Speaker 5: If they were all consecutive, he would have to have
Speaker 5: done thirteen point four years on each one of them
Speaker 5: before he could have seen the parole board. Yeah. So yeah,
Speaker 5: he really caught a break. I can't believe, although I've
Speaker 5: been fooled before, I can't believe any parole board is
Speaker 5: going to let someone out of prison with five homicides
Speaker 5: on their jacket. But stranger things have happened. He now
Speaker 5: says that he has Native American heritage and calls himself
Speaker 5: Hawk and he has hair down to his waist. And
Speaker 5: you know, that's it the best I can tell you.
Speaker 5: A couple times they went to see him, he was very,
Speaker 5: very reticent, uh, trying to make some parole plans just
Speaker 5: in case, and you know, he didn't want to. He
Speaker 5: wanted to go to halfway house in another city. And
Speaker 5: I said, no, that's not going to happen. You're coming
Speaker 5: back to Green Bay to where people can keep an
Speaker 5: eye on you. I mean, come on, you're a five
Speaker 5: time killer. So yeah, we were not friends. And when
Speaker 5: I contacted him for this book, he wanted nothing to
Speaker 5: do with me. So that's where it stands.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, I believe you talk about it. Go ahead, sorry.
Speaker 5: I believe that in his mind, like in many killer's minds,
Speaker 5: that involves the family of some sort. I believe that
Speaker 5: they see it as a personal growth experience. What they do,
Speaker 5: they are going to have a better life after. They
Speaker 5: are going to personally grow out of this bad experience.
Speaker 5: So Harry killed his family. He got them out of
Speaker 5: the way. No more roadblock growth Number one, he was
Speaker 5: going to stay with a friend and get out of
Speaker 5: that house. Growth number two. And he was going to
Speaker 5: go to a different school and meet some new friends
Speaker 5: and maybe be on their track team growth number three.
Speaker 5: So for many killers, not necessarily serial killers or bank
Speaker 5: robbers or that sort of thing, but individuals involved in
Speaker 5: family type killings, murder can be definitely a personal growth
Speaker 5: experience for them, and I believe that's what he felt.
Speaker 4: You talk about that he is an example his case.
Speaker 4: Harry's case is an example of the if not the
Speaker 4: first or one of the very very first teenage mass
Speaker 4: murders mass murderers in Wisconsin, but also in subcategories that
Speaker 4: you talk about in this book. His case is unique
Speaker 4: in other ways as well, and you talk about how
Speaker 4: you can categorize his case but not necesscessarily fitted into
Speaker 4: one neat category. Tell us about some of the analysis
Speaker 4: of this case and what it does represent in terms
Speaker 4: of one of the earliest cases. To demonstrate what it
Speaker 4: does well.
Speaker 5: A couple of things. There are three types of mass
Speaker 5: murderers teen mass murderers, and I'll get that to that
Speaker 5: in a minute. But if you look at teenage mass
Speaker 5: murders now and I'm not saying any of this actually
Speaker 5: causes murder. I think it's the noise of murder and
Speaker 5: it just kind of fuels the ideas. But if you
Speaker 5: look at family mass murder, now, there are oftentimes drugs, okay,
Speaker 5: there's oftentimes violent video games. There's oftentimes some really high
Speaker 5: tech weapons in the house, okay. So things are different
Speaker 5: now than they were then. When Harry did his killing,
Speaker 5: there was none of that, none of that. He used
Speaker 5: a twenty two rifle that his dad used for hunting.
Speaker 5: He was not a drug user, he did not drink,
Speaker 5: there were no video games, there was no violent music,
Speaker 5: there was no outside influence. So that's one way that
Speaker 5: it's really different. And as it progressed through the years,
Speaker 5: I think the teenage mass murderers became much more sophisticated,
Speaker 5: at least sophisticated in what they did and how they
Speaker 5: did it. They just like there's a case in a
Speaker 5: short synopsis of a case in the book, Richard Brenheiser
Speaker 5: killed his family, shot them all and all five of them.
Speaker 5: He then put the bodies in a car, moved the car,
Speaker 5: and set the car on fire. So basically they were shot.
Speaker 5: But when the police were called it was for a
Speaker 5: burning car, and then they found the burned, charred bodies
Speaker 5: in the car, and Brenneiser thought, well, maybe this will
Speaker 5: get rid of some of the evidence and the police
Speaker 5: won't be able to make sure it's a murder. So,
Speaker 5: at least in his mind, that's much more sophisticated than
Speaker 5: what Harry did. And it progresses on and on and on,
Speaker 5: and pretty soon you got some teen mass murderers that
Speaker 5: are pretty pretty sophisticated, pretty dangerous individuals if they're not caught.
Speaker 5: And I think, well, there's three types of family mass murders.
Speaker 5: Teen family mass murders. There's the severely abused, those individuals
Speaker 5: in a family that are abused in any way, shape
Speaker 5: or form, sexually, emotionally, physically, but it's severe, Okay, They
Speaker 5: are probably the most the most common. There's some kind
Speaker 5: of abuse in a family. And obviously, as we talked,
Speaker 5: we saw that where there was abuse in Harry's family,
Speaker 5: at least you know that we assume there was sexual
Speaker 5: and physical. And Harry's dad, by the way, was well
Speaker 5: I believe he was a sexual offender too. He had
Speaker 5: been convicted of assault assaulting a woman in nineteen fifty
Speaker 5: for he went to prison. Uh, not much information on that,
Speaker 5: but there was gossip around the neighborhood that he was
Speaker 5: in devoyeurism, peaking in the neighborhood's windows, et cetera, and
Speaker 5: again sleeping on the couch in front of everybody with
Speaker 5: your you know, your penis out. So I believe Harry
Speaker 5: was sexually abused. Then there's the extremely mentally ill. And
Speaker 5: I believe there was some mental illness in Harry's case
Speaker 5: because they had him seeing a therapist at least once,
Speaker 5: and he had another time scheduled. So I believe Harry
Speaker 5: certainly was mentally ill. And then there is the the
Speaker 5: a and these are the most remorseful, the ones that
Speaker 5: are extremely mentally ill, they are the ones that are
Speaker 5: most reforceful. And then there's the anti social. These are
Speaker 5: the ones that could be considered young socio paths. They
Speaker 5: are very violent, very dangerous, have absolutely no remorse, And
Speaker 5: these are the ones that garner the most publicity. You know,
Speaker 5: these are the kids that you know, if they're involved
Speaker 5: in a murder of their family and the police come
Speaker 5: and they're in the backseat of the car, they're smiling,
Speaker 5: or they might give the camera the finger or you know,
Speaker 5: some things like that. I mean, there is no remorse.
Speaker 5: They you know, they don't care. They're going to a
Speaker 5: different situation. And again, in their mind it might be
Speaker 5: personal growth if they don't get arrested, but they do.
Speaker 5: So I believe, though, Harry fits into all three of
Speaker 5: those categories, right, And that's not easy. But I believe
Speaker 5: he's mentally ill. I believe he was sexually assaulted, and
Speaker 5: I believe that there is some degree of antisocial about
Speaker 5: him simply because of the way he dealt with other
Speaker 5: people in school. He had virtually no friends, you know,
Speaker 5: he was he was involved in a couple of fights
Speaker 5: at the behest of his dad. And so I believe
Speaker 5: Harry was into all three categories, and I believe the
Speaker 5: ones go ahead.
Speaker 4: You call this progeny mass murder, Yes, tell us why
Speaker 4: and what this term refers to.
Speaker 5: Well, progeny means, you know, an offspring, usually a male.
Speaker 5: So if it's a family annihilator, for example, like John List.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm sure all your listeners are familiar with
Speaker 5: John List, but you know he's an adult that killed
Speaker 5: his family and went on the run for a number
Speaker 5: of years. Progeny means that it's not an adult in
Speaker 5: the family that commits the murders. It's a offspring, a child,
Speaker 5: and that's what progeny means. So that's it's a separate
Speaker 5: category because it's a kid and not an adult. But
Speaker 5: I think some of the kids fit into the same
Speaker 5: typology as the adult murders.
Speaker 4: So you don't write about this in the book, but
Speaker 4: I'm very curious to know what they deemed Harry's mental
Speaker 4: illness that necessitate him putting him in a hospital for
Speaker 4: four years before his criminal trial.
Speaker 5: Well, I think basically what it was was that his
Speaker 5: age and the case was so new and so bizarre.
Speaker 5: I mean, it got international publicity. There was some people
Speaker 5: from Japan here covering it. So I think it was
Speaker 5: because his lawyer, who prior to dying, still visited Harry
Speaker 5: in the prison. His lawyer decided that A he's very
Speaker 5: very young. B he's too young to assist in his defense.
Speaker 5: And if someone cannot assist in their defense, then they
Speaker 5: need to go to a mental health facility until they can.
Speaker 5: So what they did to Harry there, I have no
Speaker 5: idea because our juvenile records, so, but you know, and
Speaker 5: I'm sure that he was slated to go into some
Speaker 5: treatment programs in the adult prison system. Whether he did
Speaker 5: or not, I don't know, but you know, he's not
Speaker 5: getting out, so apparently he hasn't met some guidelines. But
Speaker 5: I think it was just the sheer magnitude of the crime.
Speaker 5: I had another guy who was on When you are
Speaker 5: found n Giri not kilty by a reason of insanity
Speaker 5: in the court, then you go to the state mental
Speaker 5: health facility in Madison, Mendota. Now that doesn't mean you
Speaker 5: get a free play. You are at that facility for
Speaker 5: the length of the sentence that you would be sentenced
Speaker 5: to if you were convicted. So this guy I had
Speaker 5: on my case though, killed his wife and killed his baby,
Speaker 5: another family annihilator that was, and he had sex with
Speaker 5: his wife's corpse. So that was considered so bizarre for
Speaker 5: this area. I mean, that had never happened before for
Speaker 5: this area that they said, this has got to be
Speaker 5: some kind of mental illness. So he went to the
Speaker 5: state mental health facility and to get out. You know,
Speaker 5: in prison you see a parole board at the mental
Speaker 5: health facility. You've come before the judge and proved to
Speaker 5: him that you're no longer a threat to society. Well,
Speaker 5: he petitioned the judge after a number of years, and
Speaker 5: you know, they found him to be okay, So he
Speaker 5: was out. And because of the murderers, he was on
Speaker 5: my caseload and I revoked him a couple of times
Speaker 5: and sent him back for antisocial behavior. But so Harry
Speaker 5: doesn't have that. Harry doesn't have that pleasure of coming
Speaker 5: before the judge. He has to see the parole board.
Speaker 4: So right, you talk about in this and you discuss
Speaker 4: many things, but the idea that some people think that
Speaker 4: the the brain isn't fully developed till the year of
Speaker 4: twenty five years of age. But you talk about how
Speaker 4: Wisconsin law and other state laws, and you provide a
Speaker 4: case where a fifteen year old killed his family sr Rinki.
Speaker 4: The law was changed. Again of the sheer magnitude of
Speaker 4: the horror of these kinds of crimes. Tell us about
Speaker 4: that case and the law of that changed.
Speaker 5: Okay, Well, I'll call him Steve because he was a
Speaker 5: juvenile when it happened. That's not his real name. But
Speaker 5: Steve and his family lived in rural Marathon County and
Speaker 5: in April, early in April, I believe it was the
Speaker 5: seventh in the eighties. They were out in the front
Speaker 5: playing football and looked like a normal day. I mean,
Speaker 5: it didn't look like anything was really wrong. That evening,
Speaker 5: Steve goes upstairs, unsheathed a rifle, come downstairs, shoots his dad,
Speaker 5: his mom, his brother. They're dead, and he wounds his
Speaker 5: sister and she must put her hand up like people
Speaker 5: do when they're going to get shot. She put her
Speaker 5: hand up, and the bullet went into her hand and
Speaker 5: down into her shoulder and wounded her. And I believe
Speaker 5: she played dead. The young boy stole his father's truck
Speaker 5: and drove to some relative's house. He was actually stopped
Speaker 5: by the state patrol and he was fifteen with out
Speaker 5: a driver's license, and they let him go. They said,
Speaker 5: just go home, okay. He went to some relative's house
Speaker 5: and they said what are you doing here? And they
Speaker 5: called and the home and the daughter answered the phone
Speaker 5: and said what happened. They called the police, the sheriff.
Speaker 5: He came to the home and the girl answered the door,
Speaker 5: and they said she looked like a ghost, like an apparition.
Speaker 5: There was a light shining behind her. She was pale
Speaker 5: and ashen and bleeding. But back then you could not
Speaker 5: wave someone into adult court until you're at fifteen years old.
Speaker 5: That has since changed, as you mentioned, there are now
Speaker 5: very very very young kids waved into adult court for
Speaker 5: a heinous crime. I think what happened. There was another case,
Speaker 5: and I don't remember it exactly, where a young man
Speaker 5: killed his dad when he came home from work, and
Speaker 5: those two cases assisted in changing the law in Wisconsin.
Speaker 5: But it's really interesting, you know. We started out talking
Speaker 5: about being a parole agent and some of the stuff
Speaker 5: I had to do. When I found out that this
Speaker 5: young man who had killed his family was back in
Speaker 5: the system for he was ramming squad cars in Milwaukee
Speaker 5: and he was in a tow truck. I think he
Speaker 5: was trying to escape. They thought he was burglarizing someplace.
Speaker 5: So he went to prison for reckless endangerment. And when
Speaker 5: I found out he was getting out, I thought, how
Speaker 5: can somebody fifteen years old killed their entire family? And
Speaker 5: the only thing he ever said about it was I
Speaker 5: decide when someone has to die, Okay, that's it. No
Speaker 5: one knows why, et cetera. So I contacted the investigating
Speaker 5: officer in Marathon County and I said, I really need
Speaker 5: come and talk to you, I have to get inside
Speaker 5: this guy's head. He said, yeah, come on, So I went.
Speaker 5: It's about ninety miles from here, so I got up
Speaker 5: early and went. First of all, he said, let's look
Speaker 5: at the forensic evidence. So he showed me the crime
Speaker 5: scene photos and talked about what happened and what the
Speaker 5: young man said when they were interrogating him and questioning him.
Speaker 5: So we went through all of that, which kind of
Speaker 5: gave me some insight into what was happening. Then he
Speaker 5: brought in the step parents foster parents of the daughter
Speaker 5: that was still alive, his sister and I them, and
Speaker 5: they were very frightened that the young man was going
Speaker 5: to get out and come back and do some harm.
Speaker 5: And she was getting married to a police officer. And
Speaker 5: I said, look, you don't have to worry about him
Speaker 5: coming to the funeral and messing things up on the
Speaker 5: day of the funeral. If I have to, I'll put
Speaker 5: him in jail for the day for the weekend so
Speaker 5: he doesn't come there. And I have the authority to
Speaker 5: do that. Then we went to the house where the
Speaker 5: crimes happened, and this is really creepy. The people across
Speaker 5: the street bought it and move into it, and I said,
Speaker 5: you know, And the tableau was pretty much the same
Speaker 5: as it was the night of the shooting. The furniture
Speaker 5: was in the same place. That's really eerie. But there
Speaker 5: was a little red spot under a rug, and I said,
Speaker 5: what's under that rug? And they kind of rolled it back,
Speaker 5: and there was still blood on the floor, on the
Speaker 5: wooden floor, and in the room where the sister was shot,
Speaker 5: there was still bullet holes in the floorboard. And I
Speaker 5: thought to myself, this is one creepy family.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 5: But so anyway, those two crimes changed the law. I
Speaker 5: think I just rambled on too long about being a
Speaker 5: parole agent, but those two crimes changed the law, and subsequently,
Speaker 5: now there are younger kids going to prison.
Speaker 4: Right. You write about in this book too, about school
Speaker 4: shooters and that phenomena, but also the comparison with Harry's
Speaker 4: crime and others that were school shooters that also included
Speaker 4: some members of their family being killed. Can you tell
Speaker 4: us about that in that comparison.
Speaker 5: Well, there was an attempt at school shooting here in
Speaker 5: Green Bay not all that long ago. I was retired,
Speaker 5: but my partner was still working and did the pre
Speaker 5: sentence on the main planner of the shooting. Okay, Harry
Speaker 5: got his gun and shot his family. The school shooters,
Speaker 5: first of all, they had a magnitude of weapons. The
Speaker 5: police when they went to their home they had boxes
Speaker 5: and boxes and boxes of guns, homemade explosive ammunition, etc.
Speaker 5: So again you talk about how things have changed and
Speaker 5: how that sophistication level has risen a bit. And they
Speaker 5: also had target practice target range in the basement, and
Speaker 5: they had the kind of foam heads that you put
Speaker 5: wigs on, and they were shooting into those and practicing.
Speaker 5: Harry didn't practice. He may have practiced in his mind,
Speaker 5: but he didn't practice. These guys were practiced. And the
Speaker 5: only reason that they didn't engage in the school shooting
Speaker 5: was because one of the members kind of chickened out
Speaker 5: and said, you know what, I really can't go through
Speaker 5: with this and contacted the police, and they interfered and
Speaker 5: arrested the people and that was it. But some school shooters,
Speaker 5: not necessarily those boys that were here in Green Bay,
Speaker 5: but some school shooters nationally have Remember last time we
Speaker 5: talked about and you asked me what the word bifurcated means,
Speaker 5: and bifurcated means bifurcated, means it's in two parts the crime.
Speaker 5: One part of the crime happens here, and the second
Speaker 5: part of the crime happens here. Okay, a number of
Speaker 5: the school shooters have killed mom or dad or both
Speaker 5: and then moved on to being involved in the school shooting.
Speaker 5: That's happened on more than one occasion. And I think
Speaker 5: what happens is there is so much lust to kill
Speaker 5: something or somebody, and I'm not gonna let mom and
Speaker 5: dad stop me. I'm not gonna let them get in
Speaker 5: the way, and so I'm going to take them out
Speaker 5: and that takes care of that issue, and then I
Speaker 5: can go and do whatever I want to do in
Speaker 5: the school or the movie theater or what happens to be.
Speaker 5: So that's the bifurcation. Murders happen in two separate places.
Speaker 4: One of the elements of this phenomena, though, that we
Speaker 4: talk about how things have changed since Harry. Harry, as
Speaker 4: you write, couldn't have been influenced by any of these
Speaker 4: other people later that are seeking publicity as part of
Speaker 4: their revenge and the retaliation and their vindication. So there
Speaker 4: are other elements now that come into play as well,
Speaker 4: that also, I don't know, speak to the sophistication, but
Speaker 4: also speak to the more example of extreme mental illness
Speaker 4: in some of the cases that you cite.
Speaker 5: Well, first of all, I agree with one hundred percent
Speaker 5: with you that Harry did not have I called, you know,
Speaker 5: the noise of violence or the noise of hate. He
Speaker 5: did not have. These guys have that constantly and continually,
Speaker 5: and I think that adds to the impetus. I think
Speaker 5: that there's some severe mental illness when you talk about
Speaker 5: these kids that are involved in well, look, for example,
Speaker 5: look at the guy that shot Congressman Gabrielle Gifford's Jared
Speaker 5: lockmanth I mean the guy, and I hate to say
Speaker 5: this because it really sounds prejudicial, but the guy just
Speaker 5: looks like he's mentally ill. And the guy that did
Speaker 5: the school shooting, I mean, when you look at him,
Speaker 5: he looks like he doesn't even know where he is.
Speaker 5: So I think that I think the mental illness. The
Speaker 5: access to high tech weaponry feeds off of all of
Speaker 5: the outside noise of violence. So I think when you're
Speaker 5: playing dangerous games and maybe some drugs and etc. Et cetera,
Speaker 5: and the other things you mentioned, is that there was
Speaker 5: nobody for Harry to compare himself too, to to outdo
Speaker 5: that person. Many mass murderers now, I mean they actually
Speaker 5: say that they're going to outdo the previous person before them.
Speaker 5: So if somebody had, you know, eight victims, I'm going
Speaker 5: to try to make sure I get eleven because i
Speaker 5: want to show that I'm badder than this guy. Harry
Speaker 5: had no one to compare himself to.
Speaker 4: But Harry was, as you talk about, naive and only
Speaker 4: sixteen years old. He did some things that exhibited that again,
Speaker 4: that sociopathic traits in that burying the clothes and having
Speaker 4: to wherewithal to do some of those things in terms
Speaker 4: of planning escape and his life after these murders.
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, you know when you talk about the McDonald triad,
Speaker 5: when you usually talk about it for ceilia murder, and
Speaker 5: I'm sure your people are aware of that Harry had.
Speaker 5: Harry had two of those. He shot a dog and
Speaker 5: when he came from from his mother's house he was
Speaker 5: suffering from uranieces bed wedding. You know, the only thing
Speaker 5: left was random fire setting. But I'm not sure that
Speaker 5: that I'm not sure that's mental illness. I really truly
Speaker 5: think that's a part of being a antisocial person or sociopathy,
Speaker 5: and I think that's what Harry was. And like I said,
Speaker 5: he went to the mental health center because they've never
Speaker 5: experienced this before in the criminal justice system here in
Speaker 5: sixty thousand people Green Bay. You know, my father had
Speaker 5: investigated some other homicides, but never five people by a teenager,
Speaker 5: so this was new to the entire system. And I
Speaker 5: think some of that stuff fed into the fact that
Speaker 5: he needs to get checked out. We just we can't,
Speaker 5: you know. And he's stealing underwear, his sister's underwear, and
Speaker 5: masturbating quite often from what I understand.
Speaker 4: So yeah, he does have a very next personality when
Speaker 4: you when you do know, and you do, and I've
Speaker 4: read many many accounts share some of those sociopathic traits
Speaker 4: in some of those things, with the masturbation and the
Speaker 4: just the where he seems to be headed psychologically was
Speaker 4: where a lot of these other people ended up. So
Speaker 4: there's very many things. I agree. There is mental illness,
Speaker 4: and there was abuse, but there was also those traits
Speaker 4: where many people see a separation between those. Again, just
Speaker 4: an innocent kid, but a very very sociopathic trait inherent there.
Speaker 5: Well, and look at the guy we just talked about,
Speaker 5: the young man in Marathon County, the fifteen year old
Speaker 5: that killed his family. I mean, when someone excuse me,
Speaker 5: says to him, let's talk about this, I mean, what
Speaker 5: happened he said, I decide when it's time for somebody
Speaker 5: to die. I mean, you cannot get more sociopathic than that,
Speaker 5: anymore anti social. And I'll tell you one more thing
Speaker 5: about him, if it's not too much. He could not leave.
Speaker 5: He could not enter Marathon County as one of his
Speaker 5: rules of parole, okay, without my permission. I had to
Speaker 5: know he was going there. So one night I got
Speaker 5: a call from the Chano County, which is the county
Speaker 5: next to Marathon, and they had stopped him tail light
Speaker 5: out or whatever they used. And I said, look, it's
Speaker 5: three in the morning. Is he drunk. No, he's not drunk.
Speaker 5: Tell him I will see him first thing in the morning.
Speaker 5: I'm not going to drive to Shano at three o'clock.
Speaker 5: But okay, so he goes. He goes to Shano, I
Speaker 5: mean Marathon, and he doesn't know his family's buried in Milwaukee,
Speaker 5: all five of them. He doesn't know his family's buried
Speaker 5: in Milwaukee. So I call a friend of mine who's
Speaker 5: an FBI profiler, and I said, why is this kid
Speaker 5: going back to Marathon County, you know, at all hours
Speaker 5: of the night or day. And the profiler said, I
Speaker 5: told him what the crime was. And the profiler said,
Speaker 5: he's probably looking for his parents grave to urinate on him.
Speaker 5: So again, how antisocial can you possibly get when you're Yeah,
Speaker 5: so yeah. Anyway, he didn't know they were in Milwaukee,
Speaker 5: so he couldn't have found him anyway.
Speaker 4: Incredible. You write in this book that this is far
Speaker 4: too common. You talked about the two hundred and twenty
Speaker 4: five parents per year, less than the eighties and the
Speaker 4: nineties where it was three hundred per year. Tell us
Speaker 4: a little bit more about these frightening statistics about parents murdered.
Speaker 5: Well, you know, when you're when you're a teenager, the
Speaker 5: people that make you the maddest, whether it's real or perceived,
Speaker 5: the people that make you the maddest are your parents.
Speaker 5: You know, cut your hair, go cut the grass, and
Speaker 5: stuff that you assume is just mom, oh my god,
Speaker 5: why don't they get off my case? Well, I think
Speaker 5: sometimes it goes beyond that. Look at the Menendez brothers
Speaker 5: for example. Okay, everybody said these guys had had it made.
Speaker 5: They had it made, they had lived in a mansion,
Speaker 5: they had cars and et cetera, and they ended up
Speaker 5: shotgunning their mother and father. Well, now there's people looking
Speaker 5: for a new trial because it came out that they
Speaker 5: were both severely sexually abused by their dad. So I think,
Speaker 5: what's happening in this family structure is so so secretive,
Speaker 5: and oftentimes there is nobody for these kids to talk to,
Speaker 5: and it like Harry, and it kind of boils over.
Speaker 5: This this kettle boils over And Okay, here comes the
Speaker 5: personal growth again. I mean, look what happened to the
Speaker 5: Menendez after they killed their parents. Well, they got brand
Speaker 5: new cars, they were going on vacation. You want to
Speaker 5: talk about personal growth. I got rid of the problem
Speaker 5: and look at my life now. So yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah. And the thing is too that you know, a child,
Speaker 4: especially or a person that isn't fully mature, and their
Speaker 4: only experience is that family unit, and as fractured as
Speaker 4: that family unit is, that's their entire world. There's school,
Speaker 4: there's their outside of extracurricular activities, but however, their main world.
Speaker 4: And if that's a troubling world. You can see what happened,
Speaker 4: especially in the case of this young man Harry.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, you know my wife just you know the
Speaker 5: secrets that happened in a house. My wife was a
Speaker 5: high school teacher and she had a girl in her
Speaker 5: class that we just found out recently that she was
Speaker 5: sexually assaulted by her dad so often that she would
Speaker 5: take her plate of food at dinner and go lock
Speaker 5: yourself in the bathroom eat in there because she didn't
Speaker 5: want to be sexually assaulted by her dad, who is
Speaker 5: now in prison for doing that. But I mean the
Speaker 5: secrets that happened inside these homes that push kids to
Speaker 5: different limits, and some of the limits are get a
Speaker 5: gun and let's get rid of this.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Incredible. I want to thank you very much Steve
Speaker 4: for coming on and talking about Harry A Study of
Speaker 4: Teenage mass Murderers. It's been a very very interesting interview,
Speaker 4: certainly for those that might want to take a look
Speaker 4: at Harry. Is there an Amazon page with Harry and
Speaker 4: your other work?
Speaker 5: Well, yep, tut. Just type in click on books, type
Speaker 5: in Harry, but make sure you put Harry A Study
Speaker 5: of Teenage mass Murderers, because if you just put Harry.
Speaker 5: You're going to get a bunch of books on Harry Potter.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, yeah, makes sense. Yes, well, thank you so much, Steve.
Speaker 4: That's been fascinating. Harry A study of teenage murderers. Thank
Speaker 4: you so much, Steve. You have a great evening. Thank
Speaker 4: you so much for this interview.
Speaker 5: Thanks dam bye bye bye