WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.360 --> 00:00:03.640 Lucky Land Casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've 2 00:00:03.640 --> 00:00:04.360 gotten lucky? 3 00:00:04.679 --> 00:00:07.360 Lucky in line at the Delhi I guess ah, in 4 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:10.679 my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have 5 00:00:10.759 --> 00:00:11.119 to say? 6 00:00:11.320 --> 00:00:11.880 Yes? You do? 7 00:00:12.080 --> 00:00:14.519 In the car before my kid's pta meeting? 8 00:00:14.720 --> 00:00:18.160 Really? Yes? Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? 9 00:00:18.359 --> 00:00:19.399 I never win? 10 00:00:19.480 --> 00:00:21.320 And tell well, there you have it. You can get 11 00:00:21.399 --> 00:00:24.480 lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com. Play for 12 00:00:24.559 --> 00:00:26.960 free right now. Are you feeling lucky? Nope, we're not 13 00:00:27.000 --> 00:00:28.800 necessary void. We're gonna bet my Law eighteen plus terms 14 00:00:28.800 --> 00:00:30.160 and conditions of plus what's every details? 15 00:00:30.640 --> 00:00:33.520 Wait, the Lucky Land slots. You can get lucky just 16 00:00:33.560 --> 00:00:34.439 about anywhere. 17 00:00:35.320 --> 00:00:38.200 It's your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the 18 00:00:38.200 --> 00:00:40.159 weather's five. But we're just gonna circle up here a 19 00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:43.439 while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's 20 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.119 just these cash prizes add up quick. So I suggest 21 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:48.159 you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and 22 00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:49.280 start getting lucky. 23 00:00:50.119 --> 00:00:52.920 Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Are you 24 00:00:53.039 --> 00:00:56.719 feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void, We're prohibited by Law 25 00:00:56.799 --> 00:00:59.840 eighteen plus Terms and conditions apply. See website for d. 26 00:01:08.560 --> 00:01:12.000 You are now listening to True Murder The Most Shocking 27 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.079 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 28 00:01:15.159 --> 00:01:22.439 written about trum Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 29 00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:26.159 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 30 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:30.799 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 31 00:01:31.159 --> 00:01:35.079 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 32 00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:47.920 Good evening. Long before the era of young people committing 33 00:01:48.000 --> 00:01:52.000 mass murder became a too common event, sixteen year old 34 00:01:52.040 --> 00:01:55.359 Harry Hebert made world news when he killed all five 35 00:01:55.439 --> 00:01:58.640 members of his family and Kennedy era Green Bay, Wisconsin. 36 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:03.280 Here to be a relatively normal teenager, a member of 37 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:06.719 the high school track team, Harry harbored a deep resentment 38 00:02:06.760 --> 00:02:09.639 that would make its ugly appearance on a cold winter's 39 00:02:09.719 --> 00:02:16.680 day in nineteen sixty three. In systematically systemically executing his family, 40 00:02:17.319 --> 00:02:21.360 Harry became his first the first documented teenage mass murderer 41 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:26.680 in Wisconsin history. Criminal profile veteran Steve Daniels details Harry's 42 00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:30.639 case and provides insight into what makes Harry and other 43 00:02:30.759 --> 00:02:34.840 mass murderers tick. The book that we're featuring this evening 44 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:38.800 is Harry, a study of teenage mass murderers with my 45 00:02:38.919 --> 00:02:45.400 special guest, journalist and author and former law enforcement member, 46 00:02:45.560 --> 00:02:48.199 Steve Daniels. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 47 00:02:48.280 --> 00:02:50.919 much for this interview. Steve Daniel, thanks for having me. 48 00:02:51.439 --> 00:02:52.759 I appreciate you so much. 49 00:02:53.800 --> 00:02:57.199 Thank you so much. Let's start off as you do 50 00:02:58.960 --> 00:03:02.400 you had, please tell us about your twenty six years 51 00:03:02.400 --> 00:03:07.080 and criminal justice system and what your role was, especially 52 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.719 in the last twelve years before we talk about the 53 00:03:09.759 --> 00:03:13.719 influences that brought you to this profiling and this criminal 54 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:15.039 justice career. 55 00:03:16.400 --> 00:03:19.680 I started out in corrections in Wisconsin, in the drug 56 00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:25.960 treatment program for heavily addicted inmates, those that used a needle, 57 00:03:26.039 --> 00:03:29.400 those that did a lot of the harder drugs. When 58 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.840 an opening came available in Green Bay and Probation and Parole, 59 00:03:33.479 --> 00:03:38.719 I transferred up and became a parole agent about a 60 00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:41.520 few years into it. The last twelve years of my career, 61 00:03:41.599 --> 00:03:44.199 I was a higher risk agent, and that meant that 62 00:03:44.280 --> 00:03:48.400 the offenders on my caseload were considered assaulted and dangerous, 63 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:53.360 and they were on the streets. I saw them many times, 64 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:57.680 multiple times a week, sometimes multiple times a day, at 65 00:03:57.719 --> 00:04:03.120 their job, at their home, in my office, any of 66 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:06.560 the individuals that were considered dangerous on my caseload, the 67 00:04:06.639 --> 00:04:09.960 majority of them had at least one murder on their record. 68 00:04:10.840 --> 00:04:14.840 That's how I became really interested in homicide. One individual 69 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:18.040 I can tell you about was another mass murder case. 70 00:04:19.360 --> 00:04:25.160 He killed his a fifteen year old, killed his father, mother, brother, 71 00:04:25.759 --> 00:04:29.279 and wounded his sister, left her for dead. And because 72 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:32.600 at that particular time in Wisconsin, he was too young 73 00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:36.319 to wave into adult court, so he did three and 74 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:39.079 a half years in a juvenile prison for three and 75 00:04:39.160 --> 00:04:43.839 a half murders, got out and re entered the system 76 00:04:43.879 --> 00:04:47.920 as an adult, and because of his juvenile record three homicides, 77 00:04:48.439 --> 00:04:50.879 he was on my caseload and he was considered dangerous 78 00:04:50.920 --> 00:04:54.240 in the community. So I got to know murderers pretty well. 79 00:04:54.279 --> 00:04:56.879 I had a couple of family annihilators, that's what you 80 00:04:56.959 --> 00:05:01.360 call individuals that killed their entire family, and Harry happened 81 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:03.879 to be one of them. But he was an institutional case. 82 00:05:04.600 --> 00:05:07.639 So if someone is in a prison, they have to 83 00:05:07.680 --> 00:05:10.879 have an agent available them on the streets just in 84 00:05:10.959 --> 00:05:14.560 case they get out. So Harry was on my institution caseload, 85 00:05:15.199 --> 00:05:17.040 and that's how I got to know him. 86 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.000 Right, you talk you write about it in this book too, 87 00:05:21.079 --> 00:05:25.040 that about your late father. Norman Daniels tell us a 88 00:05:25.040 --> 00:05:28.879 little bit about his influence in year of decision to 89 00:05:28.959 --> 00:05:33.839 go into law enforcement, but also his involvement in every 90 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:37.639 case that's written about in this book, No, not. 91 00:05:37.680 --> 00:05:41.439 Every case that's written about. His involvement that really got 92 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.800 me started was with Harry. I was in eighth grade 93 00:05:45.319 --> 00:05:48.920 and he was gone for days and days at a time. 94 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:51.120 He'd come home and take a shower and get two 95 00:05:51.199 --> 00:05:53.839 hours sleep, and then he'd be gone again because this 96 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.959 case was such magnificent proportions. So I would sit and 97 00:05:58.000 --> 00:06:01.319 listen to him talk. And as the year progressed, I 98 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.759 became more and more interested in the criminal mind and 99 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:07.959 in the law enforcement career. And I remember when I 100 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:12.199 was older, an older teenager sometimes home from college. He 101 00:06:12.199 --> 00:06:15.839 would come home from a murder scene. And I'll tell you, 102 00:06:15.879 --> 00:06:18.680 the last murder that he worked on was absolutely horrific. 103 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.160 His hair turned white, his face kind of got gray 104 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.680 and saggy, and he was smoking really heavily. So there 105 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:29.720 are many victims to murder. But he would come home 106 00:06:30.040 --> 00:06:32.160 and I'd be waiting up for him, and we'd sit 107 00:06:32.199 --> 00:06:34.959 in the family room and I'd ask him questions about 108 00:06:34.959 --> 00:06:37.279 the murder and he would tell me and we talk 109 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:40.279 about homicide, and that is when I really that's the 110 00:06:40.279 --> 00:06:43.079 hook that caught me. So when I went to college, 111 00:06:43.079 --> 00:06:45.920 I decided, I'm in a major in criminal justice and 112 00:06:46.040 --> 00:06:50.240 do something in the system. The last murder he worked 113 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:54.759 on that was, like I said, that changed his life dramatically. 114 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:59.040 I think it killed him early. A bunch of outlaw 115 00:06:59.079 --> 00:07:02.600 bikers held a woman against her will in a bar 116 00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:07.120 on New Year's Eve, and they sexually assaulted her and 117 00:07:07.160 --> 00:07:10.439 broke some of her bones and beat her severely, and 118 00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:12.560 then they took her out to a kind of a 119 00:07:12.600 --> 00:07:16.160 garbage dump and cut her throat and then left her. 120 00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:19.639 And she had enough about her to walk to the 121 00:07:19.720 --> 00:07:22.639 highway and then died on the side of the highway 122 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:26.319 with her head almost cut off. And that was late 123 00:07:26.360 --> 00:07:28.480 early in the morning on New Year's Day, and they 124 00:07:28.519 --> 00:07:33.199 called him in and he was gone forever for that case. 125 00:07:33.519 --> 00:07:35.560 I rarely saw him unless he came home late and 126 00:07:35.560 --> 00:07:36.240 I waited. 127 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:36.519 Up for him. 128 00:07:37.079 --> 00:07:41.920 So he wasn't really all that thrill that I was 129 00:07:41.959 --> 00:07:44.160 going to go into the criminal justice system, because he 130 00:07:44.240 --> 00:07:46.800 knew that it was, you know, the hours were terrible. 131 00:07:46.839 --> 00:07:48.959 I was going to be away from home, and you know, 132 00:07:49.079 --> 00:07:52.439 we weren't really appreciated back then. Remember they used to 133 00:07:52.519 --> 00:07:55.800 call policeman pigs back in that time, so he wasn't 134 00:07:55.920 --> 00:07:59.040 enthralled with my choice. But anyway, I decided to go. 135 00:08:01.240 --> 00:08:06.120 Now you have a couple people, doctor David Walters tell 136 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:11.399 us about his influence and his influence on your career. 137 00:08:12.240 --> 00:08:16.519 David Walters was a unique man. He was an inmate 138 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:20.879 in the prison system in Florida. When he got out, 139 00:08:20.920 --> 00:08:23.600 he worked his way up through the ranks of the 140 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:27.399 criminal justice system, got a PhD, and became a warden 141 00:08:27.920 --> 00:08:30.839 at one of the prisons in Florida, and he came 142 00:08:30.879 --> 00:08:35.960 to Wisconsin University, Wisconsin, Oshkosh, where I was going, and 143 00:08:34.960 --> 00:08:38.799 he was one of the influences in my life because 144 00:08:38.799 --> 00:08:44.399 he made the criminal justice programming in classes so interesting, 145 00:08:44.919 --> 00:08:48.799 so realistic, and so hands on that it almost well 146 00:08:48.879 --> 00:08:52.039 was not almost. It made me feel good to be 147 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.159 choosing this particular path in my life, even though, as 148 00:08:56.200 --> 00:08:59.840 I mentioned, criminal justice studies and police science and those 149 00:09:00.279 --> 00:09:02.559 things were not popular back when I was going to 150 00:09:02.600 --> 00:09:07.000 college in the sixties and seventies, But it didn't matter 151 00:09:07.039 --> 00:09:10.600 to me. Because he made the classes so phenomenal. I 152 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:14.480 think of my major. I think I had four classes 153 00:09:14.519 --> 00:09:20.279 with him, juvenile delinquency, criminology, penealogy, in one other one 154 00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.960 that kind of slips my memory right now. But no, 155 00:09:24.120 --> 00:09:26.559 he was a wonderful man and a really good teacher. 156 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:32.480 You say, there's a second figure, another person named well, 157 00:09:32.799 --> 00:09:37.159 Richard Walter. He was a scholar. What did he impart too? 158 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:38.480 What was his influence? 159 00:09:39.080 --> 00:09:41.759 He was a social worker in Michigan in the prison 160 00:09:41.879 --> 00:09:47.240 system and he developed he along with Robert Keppel, who 161 00:09:47.360 --> 00:09:50.159 was the lead investigator in the Ted Bundy case, they 162 00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:54.679 developed a new process for profiling and he would do 163 00:09:55.399 --> 00:09:57.840 seminars around the country. And I went to one of 164 00:09:57.840 --> 00:10:01.600 his seminars and he had me hooked to. I mean 165 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:03.720 the guy, First of all, it looks like a corpse. 166 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:06.639 I mean, he looks like a walking cadaver. He's got 167 00:10:07.000 --> 00:10:09.480 I think he'd got one suit in his black and 168 00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:12.120 he's just he says, the only exercise he gets is 169 00:10:12.120 --> 00:10:15.039 from coughing because he smokes so much. But the guy 170 00:10:15.120 --> 00:10:19.879 is absolutely brilliant. And he was a member of the 171 00:10:19.960 --> 00:10:22.960 VIDOC Society. And I don't know if your listeners are 172 00:10:23.039 --> 00:10:26.799 familiar with that. But the VIDOC Society was a private 173 00:10:26.919 --> 00:10:30.840 organization started by three men. Richard Walter was one of them, 174 00:10:31.360 --> 00:10:36.919 and they met every Thursday in Philadelphia and people agencies 175 00:10:36.960 --> 00:10:40.679 from around the country would bring their cold cases and 176 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.559 after a gourmet lunch, they would talk about the cold 177 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:49.159 case and give the investigating agencies some tips. So we 178 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:51.759 were going to start a cold case team here in Wisconsin. 179 00:10:52.039 --> 00:10:54.879 I was the chairman of getting it started, and I 180 00:10:54.919 --> 00:10:58.159 decided we are going to model our coal case team 181 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.519 after the VIDOC Society, except we wouldn't have a gourmet lunch. 182 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:06.159 We have bagels. But I flew out to Philadelphia and 183 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:10.240 spent three days with Richard, and the first two days 184 00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:14.240 he spent all the time with me, telling me about profiling, 185 00:11:14.320 --> 00:11:17.840 telling me about some of his ideas pre killing behavior, 186 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:22.840 post killing behavior, and how that's important to profile the killer. 187 00:11:23.200 --> 00:11:25.399 And then on the third day I went to a 188 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:29.440 bide Ox Society meeting and sat in while they profile 189 00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:32.279 the cold case from South Carolina. So I brought that 190 00:11:32.360 --> 00:11:36.080 information back to Wisconsin with me and started our cold 191 00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:41.080 case team here and we are still functioning today. 192 00:11:41.240 --> 00:11:47.200 Right now, let's get to this study of teenage mass murderers. 193 00:11:47.240 --> 00:11:52.519 With the focus on this Harry Hebert and Green Bay, Wisconsin. 194 00:11:53.240 --> 00:11:55.840 Tell us a little bit about Green Bay, Wisconsin for 195 00:11:55.879 --> 00:11:58.519 people that don't really know much about it at that time. 196 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:02.200 You talk about the population about sixty three thousand, So 197 00:12:02.279 --> 00:12:05.240 tell us just a little bit about green Bay, Wisconsin 198 00:12:05.600 --> 00:12:08.279 its makeup, and then tell us a little bit about 199 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:12.919 Harry's Hebert's life, his family life with father Jack. 200 00:12:13.399 --> 00:12:15.799 And so green Bay back then, like like you said, 201 00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:19.240 was about sixty thousand people. It was except for the 202 00:12:19.320 --> 00:12:24.080 Native American population right next door to us. Virtually it 203 00:12:24.120 --> 00:12:28.000 was one hundred percent white. Back then. The only black 204 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:32.519 individuals we had in town were usually packers, and it 205 00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:36.519 was a ross belt city, and the paper plants were 206 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:42.039 just prominent in the whole economy. But the emissions from 207 00:12:42.080 --> 00:12:45.200 the paper plants were so horrendous. I mean, they would 208 00:12:45.200 --> 00:12:49.200 actually make your eyes water and it absolutely smelled. They've 209 00:12:49.240 --> 00:12:52.840 cleaned that up since it was kind of like a 210 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.360 place you might see on a Christmas card. They had 211 00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:01.600 unbelievable great windows in a department store. On Thanksgiving and 212 00:13:01.639 --> 00:13:06.919 beyond animated puppets, et cetera. People would finish Thanksgiving dinner 213 00:13:06.960 --> 00:13:11.279 and go and watch these these puppets. There was an 214 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:13.919 elderly lady that sat in a booth outside and played 215 00:13:13.960 --> 00:13:18.240 Christmas records over loud speakers on these street lights. It 216 00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:25.120 was middle class, maybe middle to lower crime was probably 217 00:13:25.159 --> 00:13:28.480 not really all that rampant back then. I think the 218 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:31.519 one that really woke everybody up was obviously Hairy, And 219 00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:37.399 what happened there Green Bay was well, I want to say, 220 00:13:37.440 --> 00:13:39.519 I don't want to say behind the times, but it 221 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.159 was really slow living, probably some of the kind of 222 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:44.960 stuff you might have seen on some of the TV 223 00:13:45.120 --> 00:13:49.919 shows back then. The holidays were wonderful. Halloween was great. 224 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:52.799 You know, the kids would rush home and gulp their 225 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:55.720 suppers down and put their costumes on, and everybody would 226 00:13:55.720 --> 00:13:58.559 go out trick or treating and Halloween and nobody worried 227 00:13:58.559 --> 00:14:02.600 about you know, pins and or poison in candy back then. 228 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:05.240 So it was really kind of a simple time. But 229 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:07.960 Harry really changed all that pretty dramatically. 230 00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:14.080 Tell us about his family life with his father kind 231 00:14:14.120 --> 00:14:16.799 of he was sixteen years old when this happened, but 232 00:14:17.159 --> 00:14:19.480 you go back and tell a little bit about his 233 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:22.360 background before that and the living situation that he was 234 00:14:22.399 --> 00:14:23.159 in at that time. 235 00:14:24.480 --> 00:14:28.279 Harry was in a blended family at the time. There 236 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:32.240 was his dad, Jack, who was really not a very 237 00:14:32.240 --> 00:14:36.080 pleasant human being, and there was his mother who was 238 00:14:38.000 --> 00:14:42.159 from a different marriage. His brother John or stepbrother John 239 00:14:42.320 --> 00:14:46.559 from another marriage, and his mother Joyce, and the sisters 240 00:14:47.320 --> 00:14:50.879 Janice and Judy. They were all part of the blended family. 241 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:57.320 Jack was very stoic. He was also a dare deevil. 242 00:14:57.840 --> 00:14:59.639 He would get shot out of a cannon and he 243 00:14:59.679 --> 00:15:03.000 would daredevil racing, and he always made Harry come with 244 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:04.879 him and clean up the mess and do some of 245 00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:07.080 the parts, fix some of the parts in some of 246 00:15:07.120 --> 00:15:10.360 the cars, and some of the things that exploded in 247 00:15:10.440 --> 00:15:16.600 the fair. Harry was really unremarkable, I mean really unremarkable. 248 00:15:16.639 --> 00:15:20.639 He was probably a C student, did not like school, 249 00:15:21.679 --> 00:15:24.279 really enjoyed after school. He was on the track team, 250 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.159 a pole of alter and he would make full length 251 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.639 football fields and line them off for the kids in 252 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:35.559 the neighborhood to play. And he really enjoyed sports. He 253 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.879 did not enjoy helping his dad, and that became a 254 00:15:38.879 --> 00:15:44.159 bone of contention. I believe that Harry's dad was a 255 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:48.279 very abusive man, really abusive I think to his wife. 256 00:15:49.200 --> 00:15:52.600 There are episodes where people saw him grabbing her arm 257 00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:56.080 and twisting it. And on one occasion she was having 258 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:59.080 coffee and cigarettes with a friend and said that she 259 00:15:59.159 --> 00:16:02.240 bought a dress New Year's Eve and that's probably the 260 00:16:02.279 --> 00:16:05.120 last thresh she's going to buy. So she kind of 261 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.240 think she had a feeling that something was going to 262 00:16:08.320 --> 00:16:12.559 happen in that family. As a matter of fact, when 263 00:16:12.559 --> 00:16:15.840 the murders first occurred and the rumor mill was kind 264 00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:18.279 of running around, people thought that Jack was probably the 265 00:16:18.320 --> 00:16:22.679 individual that killed the family and not Harry. I believe 266 00:16:22.679 --> 00:16:28.039 Harry was abused at very least emotionally, quite possibly physically, 267 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.240 and I believe there was some sexual abuse in the family, 268 00:16:32.039 --> 00:16:36.399 maybe toward the twins. But one of the crime scene 269 00:16:36.480 --> 00:16:42.120 photos of the murder scenario was Jack the dad laying 270 00:16:42.120 --> 00:16:44.759 on the couch with his pants on zipped and his 271 00:16:45.080 --> 00:16:48.759 penis out, and a friend of theirs who would come 272 00:16:48.759 --> 00:16:52.360 to visit Harry said he walked through the family room 273 00:16:52.399 --> 00:16:54.840 where he was sleeping on the couch like that, and 274 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:57.559 it just creeped him out so much that he never 275 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:01.399 went back through that room. He always back door. But 276 00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:03.600 he said, as far as he could tell, the dad 277 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:06.559 would sleep like that, you know, whenever he hadn't took 278 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:10.039 a nap, which indicates to me that there is some 279 00:17:10.160 --> 00:17:14.640 kind of sexual friction in that household, now against whom 280 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.440 I couldn't tell you for sure. Harry never mentioned anything 281 00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:21.799 about anything, not even his reason for doing the killings. 282 00:17:22.240 --> 00:17:28.359 So but do I believe there was abuse? Yes, Harry's 283 00:17:28.400 --> 00:17:32.720 mother lived in Lacrosse and apparently didn't want to have 284 00:17:32.839 --> 00:17:37.039 him around. So when Jack got Harry as a younger kid, 285 00:17:38.039 --> 00:17:43.160 he was pretty ragtag, tattered clothes, absolutely filthy feet. From 286 00:17:43.200 --> 00:17:45.119 everything I've read, his dad has spent a couple of 287 00:17:45.200 --> 00:17:47.880 days scrubbing him. So he was at the very least 288 00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.400 neglected with his mother. So he goes from neglect to 289 00:17:51.640 --> 00:17:55.640 potential abuse, and obviously that has that must have played 290 00:17:55.680 --> 00:18:00.400 some role in his mind, you know, to to set 291 00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:02.160 off the killings. 292 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:07.480 You also write about stepmother Joyce, and it seemed that 293 00:18:07.559 --> 00:18:11.039 she had a plan to escape this marriage. He wasn't 294 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:15.839 happy in this marriage with Jack either, and possibly that 295 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:22.359 Harry might have heard a conversation regarding that escape from 296 00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:22.960 the marriage. 297 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:28.480 Yes, Now, the plan from Joyce was mentioned, but as 298 00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:31.240 far as I can tell, it was never detailed, so 299 00:18:31.359 --> 00:18:33.240 she may have set it to a friend maybe in 300 00:18:33.359 --> 00:18:36.319 passing or like I said, when we were sitting around 301 00:18:36.400 --> 00:18:39.599 smoking and drinking coffee, and I believe Harry may have 302 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:43.079 overheard that and it kind of sets something off, like 303 00:18:43.400 --> 00:18:47.559 he didn't want his family to break up, although I 304 00:18:47.599 --> 00:18:50.440 find that really difficult to believe, because he was at 305 00:18:50.480 --> 00:18:55.720 odds with his stepbrother continually and his dad, like I said, 306 00:18:55.799 --> 00:18:58.400 was probably abusive, so it was not a happy household 307 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:02.359 by any stretch of the imagination. So I think that 308 00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:06.599 got Harry into planning what he was going to do. 309 00:19:06.759 --> 00:19:11.160 And like many adolescents, you know, the plan may seem 310 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:14.519 detailed to him, but it's kind of haphazard and certainly 311 00:19:14.599 --> 00:19:19.440 can't be carried out. So anyway, that takes Harry to 312 00:19:21.200 --> 00:19:26.200 January in nineteen sixty three, and that's when the murders occurred. 313 00:19:29.039 --> 00:19:33.839 Now you say that he, despite being immature, he had 314 00:19:33.880 --> 00:19:36.799 a written plan, and you provide that in this book. 315 00:19:37.960 --> 00:19:42.440 So the pre slaughter plans, what are those? Tell us 316 00:19:42.440 --> 00:19:47.079 some of the checklists that he had, and it's demonstrative 317 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:48.759 of this immaturity that you speak of. 318 00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:55.880 Yell Well, he after the killings, police searched his locker 319 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:00.440 and in one of the textbooks they found a plan 320 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:04.960 that he had written out and it was basically automatic 321 00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:07.599 twenty two rifle and loaded. So we wanted to get 322 00:20:07.599 --> 00:20:10.000 the gun. And some of this part does not make 323 00:20:10.039 --> 00:20:13.119 any sense at all. Have your feet wrapped in towels 324 00:20:13.240 --> 00:20:16.319 or rags, okay, And I think that was probably not 325 00:20:16.400 --> 00:20:18.960 to get blood on him and to maybe wipe stuff 326 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:21.440 up on the floor. But then a few down there 327 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:23.640 it says, get rid of the towels or rags and 328 00:20:23.759 --> 00:20:26.400 walk around in bare feet to all the bodies. I 329 00:20:27.920 --> 00:20:31.720 can't make headner tails out of that. But he had 330 00:20:31.720 --> 00:20:35.119 in the plan hit dad and mom first. Then as 331 00:20:35.160 --> 00:20:38.359 they come in. And I believe that someone that's going 332 00:20:38.400 --> 00:20:42.559 to commit a mass murder they choose who's going to 333 00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:46.000 be first by one of two reasons. It's the person 334 00:20:46.039 --> 00:20:49.440 that gave them the most abuse or the person they 335 00:20:49.480 --> 00:20:51.839 believe they have to get rid of so that they 336 00:20:51.839 --> 00:20:55.200 can complete the act. And Harry's dad fit into both 337 00:20:55.200 --> 00:20:57.839 of those categories. I mean, his dad was the strongest 338 00:20:58.240 --> 00:21:02.079 and he was home first, So you hit dad first 339 00:21:02.119 --> 00:21:04.240 and then get him out of the way, and then 340 00:21:04.319 --> 00:21:07.039 mom because she's maybe the next I don't know, the 341 00:21:07.079 --> 00:21:12.079 next obstacle. However, it didn't work that way. He was 342 00:21:12.079 --> 00:21:13.880 going to take all of his money and hide it 343 00:21:13.880 --> 00:21:17.559 in the closet, and then he was going to shoe 344 00:21:17.640 --> 00:21:20.000 himself in the right arm and the right leg and 345 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.680 then call the police or wait to get discovered, whichever one. 346 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:27.720 That meant that I have no idea. But there was 347 00:21:27.799 --> 00:21:31.880 some more. He had a checklist he needed to get money, 348 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.039 and he calls it crap, and I think it means 349 00:21:34.079 --> 00:21:41.119 his belongings, food, sleeping materials, clothes, weapons, cigarettes he didn't smoke, 350 00:21:41.839 --> 00:21:45.160 school locker check that out, and materials to take to 351 00:21:45.200 --> 00:21:49.200 the Pulaski Boys. The Pulaski is a small town, maybe 352 00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:52.440 twenty minutes from Green Bay, and his friends lived there, 353 00:21:52.880 --> 00:21:55.000 and that's where he was going to go and stay 354 00:21:55.000 --> 00:22:00.519 with them. He wanted to have the guns lift, he 355 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:07.880 wanted to have lay up somewhere after the murders. See 356 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:10.119 this will tell you the immaturity of the plan. That 357 00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:12.400 he didn't already get that he was going to go 358 00:22:12.440 --> 00:22:16.680 to Pulaski High School and enrolled by another name. Well, 359 00:22:16.839 --> 00:22:19.920 not ever thinking that you know, the authorities at the 360 00:22:20.000 --> 00:22:21.720 high school we're going to say, well, where's your mom 361 00:22:21.720 --> 00:22:25.119 and dad and where's your school records? How come you're 362 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:30.119 coming here, and so that would obviously that wasn't going 363 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:32.839 to work. But he was captured the next day, so 364 00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:35.799 none of his plan really had to go into effect. 365 00:22:37.079 --> 00:22:41.960 But let's let's let's talk about what happened a month before, 366 00:22:42.039 --> 00:22:45.000 because you talk about precipitating factors and this is very, 367 00:22:45.079 --> 00:22:48.359 very important. So what happened the month before? You say 368 00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:51.440 that Harry and his stepbrother John and a friend were 369 00:22:51.440 --> 00:22:55.640 caught shoplifting. Now, this incident, along with the poor grades 370 00:22:55.640 --> 00:23:00.160 in school and this bad relationship with John, and some 371 00:23:00.200 --> 00:23:04.640 indications that Harry was thinking of running away, what did 372 00:23:04.640 --> 00:23:06.480 his parents do about a month before? 373 00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:12.519 Is well, after all that happened, they had Harry go 374 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:16.680 into therapy and he only made it to one session, 375 00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:20.160 didn't go to any others. So obviously there was some 376 00:23:20.319 --> 00:23:23.839 underlying things that were really starting to gnaw at Harry. 377 00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:26.920 The shoplifting was part of it, the idea that he 378 00:23:26.920 --> 00:23:29.079 couldn't get his driver's license. They wouldn't let him get 379 00:23:29.079 --> 00:23:31.720 his driver's license, and a friend of his said that 380 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:37.079 Harry was really exhibiting some strange, strange behavior. There was 381 00:23:37.119 --> 00:23:40.039 a dog in the neighborhood that was wounded and they 382 00:23:40.119 --> 00:23:42.680 believed that Harry was the one that shot that dog. 383 00:23:43.640 --> 00:23:47.519 Animal cruelty, and this is pretty disgusting, but there was 384 00:23:47.559 --> 00:23:50.559 a mushal basket in the backyard behind Harry's house and 385 00:23:50.599 --> 00:23:53.559 it was full of human feces, and they believed that 386 00:23:53.599 --> 00:23:57.000 Harry was going outside to use the restroom. I mean, 387 00:23:57.039 --> 00:24:01.039 so it's this real strange, strange mindset that's kind of 388 00:24:01.079 --> 00:24:05.720 focusing in. And then Harry was, excuse me, stealing some 389 00:24:05.799 --> 00:24:08.920 of the twin sisters underwear, and they believe that he 390 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.359 was doing heavily involved in masturbation. So you add all 391 00:24:12.400 --> 00:24:15.960 this together and then you throw in the abuse, and 392 00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:19.599 I think Harry just finally had enough of everything and 393 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.960 snapped and never went back to counseling, and then the 394 00:24:23.880 --> 00:24:27.799 homicides occurred. Harry was a strange and he still is 395 00:24:27.839 --> 00:24:30.759 a strange man. When he was on my institution, Caseload, 396 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:33.960 I went to see him a couple times. He doesn't 397 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:36.519 say much. He's never said why he did the killings, 398 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:39.319 but he was a strange young man, and I think 399 00:24:39.359 --> 00:24:42.559 that all came to a head and really set him 400 00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:44.599 off until February. 401 00:24:46.839 --> 00:24:50.519