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Speaker 1: Is up, Fella sickos. I am Dana Valley coming at

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you with my one, my only, my certified fans fabulous

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co host of the Hardwood Knocks podcast, mister Grant Hughes.

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We're back hashtag WJAQ. We're just asking questions. We cannot

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be held responsible for what type of discussions or answers

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they lead to the question of the day, Keny, NBA

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fixed tanking is tanking? Its biggest problem? Is tanking even

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a problem? I think the first before we get into

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the potential solutions that are floating around out there, because

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the Competition Committee recently meant which is met and tried

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to hash this out, that's the trigger for it. Excuse me, Grant.

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Why is tanking considered such a big issue in the

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NBA where a lot of these other leagues are still

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Let's just choose the NFL as an example. The worst

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teams there is no lottery like the worst teams just

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automatically they get the best picks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, this is all we've We've hit on

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some aspect of everything we're gonna hit here as a preamble,

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But like the core issue is it seems fairly well

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established that the best way to build a contending roster

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is to draft a superstar that around whom you center

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your whole operation and you win championships that way. It's

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easier to do it that way than trading for that player.

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It's certainly easier to do it that way than signing

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that player in free agency. Just look around the league.

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I mean, there are exceptions to every rule, but you're

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Tim Duncans, you're Steph Curry's, you're Jason Tatum's, you're Nikola

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Jokic's like drafted right, not all with super high picks,

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which is relevant, but that's just that those that's the

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way to do it. I think if you're trying to

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have the most effective strategy, So if the reason you

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pick high in a draft is because you were had

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a bad record, then teams are gonna at least look

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at the upside of having a bad records. That's the

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short answer, right, Like, it's just there's an incentive to losing,

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and so some teams that are not capable of winning

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at the highest level decide rather than be in the middle.

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And we support this a lot of the time. By

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the way, they try to win the race to the

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bottom because they want their Wamba Yama, Curry, Jokic, whoever

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they want that guy. The reason it's a really big

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discussion if unless you have something to add to the

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why is it an issue? Is its uniqueness too, because

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the NFL doesn't have a tanking problem. Major League Baseball

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does not have a tanking problem. International soccer really does

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not have a tanking problem because you get relegated, you

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get sent to a lower league and make less money

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if you are on a team that quote unquote tanks.

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Like so, I think the reason it's a discussion is

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because this isn't a pro This is an NBA issue,

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you know, really among the major sports, both American and internationally.

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It's like, we don't talk about this for other sports.

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And so that's why it's so interesting is because it

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speaks to like the different incentive sets that exist in

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the NBA that don't really exist in a lot of

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other sports. So I don't know that what do you do?

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You have a different take on it? Like what? Like

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it seems pretty clear to me why tanking is an

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issue just because there's plus to losing.

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Speaker 1: I am fascinated by it by the focus on it.

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Though when it comes to the NBA because some of

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the leagues are would it be better, Like, wouldn't it

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be worse if the worst team's just got the picks.

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I feel like it kind of comes back to why

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is the NBA season so long? And they're trying to

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figure out a way, which is this is fair? Is

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if you're not going to shorten the season, because in theory,

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if you shorten the season, a curbs tanking. But they're

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never going to shorten the season. But I do agree

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with the sentiment of March and April basketball in the

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NBA is just not it. I don't I learn the

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least amount basically about the league and its teams then

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or during that spending you can probably even say post

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All Star break maybe. And we're also at a point

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to where you say, never mind the fines from teams

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you talk I fined a bunch last year. We've seen

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Philly get fined with certain injury reporting. But you've also

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just sort of reached a point where teams that play

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well or breakout players, you're thinking, well does that really count?

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Like there what was the joke that you used to

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have about Jalen Green, Like he's the post All Star bricks?

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So he's just like aphemeral, the best version of himself.

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And to what you already said, the fact that one

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player can make such a difference, So you are even

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if you remove the lottery from the equation, you're just

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incentive like one even more than a QB in the NFL,

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just one person makes all the difference. In hockey, you're

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playing these shorter stints on the ice, like you're not

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going to rack up as many consecutive minutes to where

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you can impact the game. I don't what I am

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hesitant before we get into like some of the solutions

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that we're thrown out there, and we can pick and

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choose which ones we want to talk about because the

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competition committee came up with some we have our own,

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we called from others. I really think that we need

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to remember that there's a reason why, Like some teams

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are just bad, and I sometimes feel like badness gets

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conflated with tanking, or they're rebuilding gets conflated with tanking.

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The Wizards as an example, they can pull shenanigans at

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the end of the season, but I don't know that

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any one player they remove from their lineup is going

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to impact the results as much as you deal with

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certain other teams, and like that's where I kind of

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struggle with it. And the other thing that I will

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say I find this more criminal than tanking is the

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existence of the Bulls or the Kings as an example,

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that are just aiming to be Like I guess they're

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trying through and through so it matters, but they're not

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actively trying to contend either. Is there integrity in doing

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what Chicago specifically does not really.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's what makes it interesting and that's what so

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like this is a unique NBA issue I feel like

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because we give the Kings and Bulls a really hard

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time because well, I mean for a lot of reasons,

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but one of them is they won't just rip the

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band aid off right, And to me, like if you

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really do step back, that is a weird thing, Like

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from from our side, like we're annoyed by them or

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think they're being dumb because they're trying to win more

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games than we think is smart and like that's a

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weird system. Like it's a competitive sport. The object is

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to win, but we think they should lose on they

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should do things so that they lose on purpose. Now

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it's not just lose on purpose. It's like have a plan,

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Like the goal of losing now is to win later, right,

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Like it's not totally divorced from like the object of

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the sport, but like it always strikes me as strange

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that it's like the correct decision and when teams don't

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make it, we give them shit about it is to

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try to be bad like that. That's like that's a problem.

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That's like a structural issue to me, and and I

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just other sports just don't deal with it and nearly

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don't have it in anything close to the same way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that's a good point. But also I

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would ask you, though, it is like what is the

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what's more honorable if you're tanking to try and get

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a player that will allow you to contend for titles

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or to actively check Like there's no Internally, there's no

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way the Bulls can have looked at themselves at any

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point since the Derreck Rose era and said we are

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actually a contender. Yeah, is that like that that sort

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of leans towards they're just trying to keep the lights

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on to where we want to make as much money.

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We want that playing gate revenue, we want the first

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round playoff, the three or four games that we might

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get revenue two or three games, depending on how long

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the series last.

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Speaker 2: So it's kind of like you said, honorable, It's almost like,

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I mean, there is some honor in trying to win

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the game that night, basically regardless, but it's like it's

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they're doing it unambitiously because they're not They're just hanging

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out in the middle for Gate rev or whatever. They're

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not going all the way to the bottom or like

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making win now trades to be a top four seed today.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not trying to say I'm a I'm a

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tanker sympathizer. It's just that there are certain like the

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what the bulls do specifically just to keep coming back

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to them that really grinds my gears more than actual

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tanking does, because at least it feels like tanking is

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more purposeful. Now. I don't think it should be happening.

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I think it's bad for the product. It's like, but

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I'm just and I feel between that and then conflating

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it with just rebuilding teams that how do you get good?

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You do have to rebuild at some point and you're

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not going to be good for a while. Sometimes conflating

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those teams if it like that sort of peeves me

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a little bit too, because it's, okay, so you want,

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let's use the Wizards as an example, what if they

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were chock full of veterans beyond CJ. McCollum and Chris Middleton.

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They should play all those guys because it gives them

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a better chance of winning games, even though it comes

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at the expense of the development of the younger guys

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who at some point do need to play and get reps.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just kind of like this is why it's

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hard to be You can be like annoyed with the

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state that the game gets to in in March and

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April and stuff, and I am too, but it's almost

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like you gotta acknowledge that something like teams are just

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like here's the rules of the game, you know, and

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they're trying to strategize in a way that gives them

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the best outcome, and that's losing some time. So it's

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like I'm never like mad at the team in particular,

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because it's like, yeah, I get it, like you've decided,

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you've probably correctly assessed like what your incentives are, and

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you're just doing the thing that gets you closer to them,

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but it is like, well, I'm let me kind of

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related to that. Don't you think that the worst type

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of tanking is not I think that the type of

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tanking that the league is very concerned about is like

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a process sixers thing that's like, there's no end in

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sight to this. We're just gonna do this until we

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do hit the lottery figuratively and metaphorically or and literally.

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But to me, the the the otherwise pretty competitive team

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that like this is the play in was introduced to

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curb some of this, but that is like, not we

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don't want to make a we don't want the playoffs.

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We would prefer to lose, so we get a lottery pick,

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like those middle of the road tankers that just shut

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it off at the you know, they got thirty six

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wins and they just just totally like you know, put

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everything away for the last fifteen games or even longer.

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Like that's like and what we always keep saying, Utah

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should do, you know, has to do because they start

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too hot? Like that feels like an almost bigger problem

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because then it's not just a bad team that's always

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going to be bad staying bad. It's it's a team

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that like, I don't know, you shouldn't you want to

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make the playoffs like that? That to me is what's

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the craziest version of it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think, and so if we get into solutions,

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what you kind of hit on and this is so

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let's go through the ones that the competition can make.

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Had talked about most recently this was limit the pick

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protections on trades to top four or post lottery. This way,

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you're not having what you just mapped out with the

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Jazz last year and maybe this season because they owe

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that protected pick to the thunder what the Sixers did

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last year to keep there that was top six protected right,

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and it ends up getting them j Edgecombe. The what

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the Dallas Mavericks did in the year that they ended

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up trading and getting Derek Lively where they just punted

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on getting into the plane altogether. This I don't know

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how you feel about this solution. Obviously that's why we're

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having this. I'm okay with this. It would it would

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probably simplify trades a little bit. I don't know, what

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do you think it would maybe hurt the level of

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activity in trades.

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Speaker 2: That that is The related question is like, is whatever

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you do there's gonna be on unintended consequences whatever the

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league decides to do. But I think one that it

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should be very concerned about is curbing like transactional activity.

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So if you think that limiting pick protections in this

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way will reduce the number of trades we see, then

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it's like, I don't know, because the NBA thrives on

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like trade speculation, and that's just like what everybody pays

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attention to. I'm kind of the mind that it wouldn't

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curtail trading. I think there's a good argument to be

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made that it would simplify it. It's just like because

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you're not trying to think of an example of what

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you don't hear about it, but because they're closed door discussions.

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But like I don't know the you know, the Hawks

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Pelicans pick isn't a good trade, isn't a good example.

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But like teams that haggle over pick protections, maybe that

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makes it so some deals don't happen. And maybe now

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if like there's kind of two that you can put

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on a pick and that's it, and it simplifies things.

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So I don't I don't know what would happen. I'm

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not super convinced that it would hurt or like like

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decrease trade activity, which is like a big concern.

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Speaker 1: No, I don't think it would. I guess my if

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I had a concern or a point is I don't

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in any given year, how many teams are doing something

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to keep a pick that's protected outside the top four.

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And if you're the Sixers, let's just say last year's

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pick was top four protected instead of top six, do

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you think they go about their post All Star slide

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any differently because we knew they couldn't get the bottom

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like a as like they weren't been able to be

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fourth in a lot of right, we knew that by

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that point, but you would still have a statistical chance

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of jumping into the top four, which is, by the way,

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what they ultimately did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a good question. I think, like, well,

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the the examples this year are Utah and Washington both

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have what top eight protected picks top eight protected twenty

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twenty six picks, and so like Washington, not an issue.

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They're gonna they're gonna be, they're gonna have, well, they're

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winning some games as we record this. Well, okay, less

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of an issue than for Utah, whose pick famously is

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gonna go to the Thunder if they don't hold on.

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I mean, we were talking about the Clippers earlier this

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year too, when they were really on in the dumps

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conveying a pick.

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Speaker 1: Here's here's a thought just BA spin off based off

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this idea. What if you just weren't allowed to trade

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any sort of protected picks or picks it all to

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the Thunder.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think that's a that's one the league

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might need to look at. But like so, I'm just

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trying to think so if you had top four, so

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if these top eights weren't there, so the Jazz and

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Wizards are either top four or top fourteen protected on

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the picks they have out going what.

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Speaker 1: Those are teams that would they wouldn't would it change?

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Those are still teams that would want a top four

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like neither You could say maybe Ace Bailey in Utah.

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Do they look at it as Okay, we have Ace

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ken't the George and Lowry marketing if that pick was

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top four protected instead of top eight, I don't think

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it would change the trajectory of how this season will

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play out for them at all. If anything, I would

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argue that they would be more likely still to kind

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of if they do throw in the towel. Austin Ainge

294
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age To has said that they won't do anything like that.

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I think would make it more likely that they're more

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aggressive about being bad. That's just I don't know that

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that makes the problem worse. I just don't know if

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it fixes this mid season issue entirely.

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Speaker 2: So do you think that the examples that we went

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through of like the Sixers getting with the edgecomb pick

301
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or the Lively pick or I guess Cason Wallace that

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became Derek Lively for Dallas a couple of.

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Speaker 1: Years now, it would weed out the MAVs one for sure,

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because they had.

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Speaker 2: Yes, But are you saying then that or do you

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think that those incidents are few enough and far enough

307
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between that like the limited limiting pick protections is not

308
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It's like solving a problem that actually doesn't come up

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as much as we think. Is that at that kind

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of the argument.

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Speaker 1: Right, it goes It's a step above trying to solve

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a problem you don't have, because it is a problem.

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I just don't know if it's a huge problem, because

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if anything, I think what it does is shift the

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behavior of teams earlier into the schedule slash season. Maybe

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if the picks are top four protected.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, right, because you got to if you're trying

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00:16:05,639 --> 00:16:07,799
to land in there, you've got to from day one,

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You've got to be built to lose, right if you're

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trying to get in the top four where like top

321
00:16:12,080 --> 00:16:16,000
eight is if I don't know, I I think I

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think the concern would be that top fourteen section. You

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might just have teams that are even better. If it's

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if it's okay, this pick's top fourteen protected, that's when

325
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isn't that when you would have the worst issue of like,

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00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:33,720
well do we want to make the play in or

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00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:37,000
do we want to just call it? Right? Is that

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because whenever you.

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Speaker 1: Last time, you saw teams going all out to keep

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the number four team pick.

331
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Speaker 2: Right, right, Well, there's life maybe move up. But that's

332
00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:47,919
the thing, it's a lottery pick. Like you know, that's fair,

333
00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:48,440
that's fair.

334
00:16:48,919 --> 00:16:51,399
Speaker 1: Putting to your point, teams are always going to play

335
00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:54,799
the math, and the math in this instance would be

336
00:16:55,320 --> 00:16:57,879
you have a point one percent chance of getting the

337
00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,519
number one pick, or you have a zero for chance

338
00:17:00,559 --> 00:17:02,720
of getting it, and teams will pick a lot of

339
00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:03,279
the times, the.

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Speaker 2: Former Cooper flag shouldn't be in Dallas. To a much

341
00:17:06,839 --> 00:17:09,119
lesser extent, zach Resiche should not be in Atlanta like

342
00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:10,839
those teams, don't.

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Speaker 1: The other the other thing, by the way, when you

344
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talk about I think this was the intended consequence, but

345
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like the current lottery climate is doing what it intended

346
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because look at who is one, look at what happened

347
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over the past few years, or look at what's happened

348
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since it's been implemented.

349
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Speaker 2: I do think I don't know what the fallout would be.

350
00:17:29,079 --> 00:17:31,279
I would just be I don't I don't hate this idea.

351
00:17:31,319 --> 00:17:33,200
I want to say, like, of the options, I think

352
00:17:33,759 --> 00:17:36,960
this is actually pretty good. Not to say that there

353
00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:38,880
aren't other options we haven't discussed yet or that will

354
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come to light eventually. But like what I would be

355
00:17:41,839 --> 00:17:46,400
most worried about is you. I I would not want

356
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to do anything that incentivized a team that's like higher

357
00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:55,440
up the competitive hierarchy to lose, Like I don't who

358
00:17:55,559 --> 00:17:58,160
cares about the like the out and out like true tankers,

359
00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,119
right the very worst teams the league, Like I get it,

360
00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:03,640
but I don't want like the taint of that, like

361
00:18:03,799 --> 00:18:07,799
climbing the competitive ladder to where it's a potential playoff

362
00:18:07,799 --> 00:18:09,759
team or even a play like. The more you can

363
00:18:09,759 --> 00:18:13,480
limit those types of tanking behaviors, I think that's like

364
00:18:13,519 --> 00:18:15,559
the mark of a good change. I don't know what this,

365
00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,039
what this would do in that respect.

366
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Speaker 1: It it feels more innocuous to maybe slightly net positive.

367
00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:23,440
So why not just yeah, implement it?

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00:18:23,799 --> 00:18:26,759
Speaker 2: I agree? I agree? So what's another what's a less

369
00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:28,839
preferable option on the.

370
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:31,920
Speaker 1: Ta This was another one the Competition Committee talked about,

371
00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:35,079
which was limiting the like teams can't get a top

372
00:18:35,079 --> 00:18:37,680
four pick in consecutive years. And I think that's just

373
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:41,799
a dumpster fire of an idea because the what is

374
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,960
Nate Duncan calls it the Resichet rule sometimes, like what

375
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,319
if the draft class just isn't good? And also what

376
00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:50,720
I actually think would happen is now you just have

377
00:18:50,839 --> 00:18:54,599
these longer windows of rebuilding or tanking to where teams are, well,

378
00:18:54,599 --> 00:18:56,799
we've got this five year time horizon in which we'll

379
00:18:56,839 --> 00:18:58,759
have three bites at the apple well getting a top

380
00:18:58,799 --> 00:19:00,680
four pick, and that's how they'll operate.

381
00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,559
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a problem. I think again, because

382
00:19:04,559 --> 00:19:07,839
I'm hung up on this, like, let's say you're you're

383
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:10,640
not one of the four worst teams. You're somewhere above that,

384
00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,720
maybe not too far above it. But you're looking at

385
00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,160
the list and like, oh, three of those teams picked

386
00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:18,319
in the top four last year, so I know that

387
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,640
they won't get the pick. So I'm the eighth, ninth,

388
00:19:21,759 --> 00:19:25,359
tenth worst team, But I'm I got a great shot

389
00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:27,799
now of and so like of getting into that top

390
00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:30,920
four because these other teams are ineligible. Like so now

391
00:19:31,000 --> 00:19:33,680
you're just like, this is like completely antithetical, I think

392
00:19:33,680 --> 00:19:36,920
to what you want. What it does do is make

393
00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,359
it so you don't feel like some team that's poorly

394
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:43,480
run just keeps getting cracks at like a transformative player

395
00:19:43,519 --> 00:19:45,079
and doesn't deserve it.

396
00:19:45,079 --> 00:19:48,319
Speaker 1: It brings you lottery parody, I guess is what it does.

397
00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:51,000
Speaker 2: Just which just like I just don't want the ninth

398
00:19:51,039 --> 00:19:53,319
worst team, thinking like, well, it's actually a pretty good

399
00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,599
decision for us to lose every game we can. Now

400
00:19:56,759 --> 00:19:59,480
because these other three teams are two or four whatever,

401
00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:01,920
it is, like those slots aren't really spoken for. We

402
00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:04,200
might be able to get into. I just like that's

403
00:20:04,519 --> 00:20:05,359
you can't have that.

404
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,359
Speaker 1: I don't think this has a puncher's chance of happening.

405
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,559
Brian Windhorst pointed this out, you need twenty three of

406
00:20:11,559 --> 00:20:14,559
the league's owners to approve any of these changes. There's

407
00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:17,960
I can't think that you're gonna get twenty three of

408
00:20:18,079 --> 00:20:19,000
thirty votes on this.

409
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,279
Speaker 2: I wouldn't. I wouldn't think so. I certainly this this appeal. Well,

410
00:20:23,319 --> 00:20:26,279
we got another suggest one that I also really don't like.

411
00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:29,759
That one just seems like I don't understand the benefit

412
00:20:29,799 --> 00:20:30,079
at all.

413
00:20:30,680 --> 00:20:33,000
Speaker 1: How many games are so it's lock in for grants

414
00:20:33,039 --> 00:20:35,079
reacting without even telling what it is.

415
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:36,759
Speaker 2: No, I'm talking about the previous one.

416
00:20:37,039 --> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, the next one is lock in draft lottery

417
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,359
odds by March first. How do you feel about that one?

418
00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,519
Speaker 2: I just think it moves the tanking starting gun a

419
00:20:48,519 --> 00:20:51,599
little bit, and I don't know that it I don't

420
00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,480
know that it solves a problem. It makes the season confusing. Look,

421
00:20:54,599 --> 00:20:58,000
it would theoretically incentivize teams to win as much as

422
00:20:58,039 --> 00:21:00,440
they could at the end of the season, which we

423
00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:04,640
want to happen. We don't like it that several decent

424
00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:08,880
teams to and the very bad ones aren't trying, so

425
00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:12,559
it I think I just don't I don't know that

426
00:21:12,599 --> 00:21:15,240
this gets you the results you want other than like

427
00:21:15,319 --> 00:21:19,400
it makes some of these still meaningless games slightly more meaningful.

428
00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,519
Like I don't know what's what's your take on it?

429
00:21:21,599 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 1: I just don't see how many games? How many games

430
00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:27,759
were played between March first and April twelfth, whatever the

431
00:21:27,839 --> 00:21:31,559
NBA season is you're talking about, you're talking about less

432
00:21:31,599 --> 00:21:33,759
than a quarter of the team season basically, So I

433
00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:35,960
don't know how that's going to materially change my hating

434
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,559
your behavior. Now, this is a hybrid, this next one

435
00:21:38,559 --> 00:21:40,519
of a couple ideas, and I actually really like it,

436
00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:43,559
So don't let that impact your views. But you're supposed

437
00:21:43,599 --> 00:21:48,440
to love it. Losses count towards your lottery odds before

438
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:53,000
the trade deadline. After the trade deadline, wins help your

439
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:53,720
lottery odds.

440
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,759
Speaker 2: Hmmm, So in theory, then let's tell let's talk it

441
00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:04,000
out you so if you are let's say, okay, so

442
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,599
the losses count pre deadline, so there's something there's sort

443
00:22:07,599 --> 00:22:11,440
of a pseudo standings lock here, but not not totally

444
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,640
because you can then improve your odds by winning games after. Yeah,

445
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:17,359
So what's that look like? Like, give me a team

446
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:19,680
and like map out its season for me with like

447
00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:21,640
what their goals are now.

448
00:22:21,720 --> 00:22:24,799
Speaker 1: I guess what you could argue is that could you

449
00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:29,400
just say, as the Wizards, we're terrible, now, we're gonna

450
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:31,279
go make a trade at the deadline to try and

451
00:22:31,319 --> 00:22:33,960
get better so that we can rack up wins and improve.

452
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,119
How married are you to doing that. I feel like

453
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,440
that could hamper it, But I do think you would.

454
00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:41,960
You know, if it's losses before and wins after. I

455
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:43,720
think what it would do is weed out a lot

456
00:22:43,759 --> 00:22:46,279
of the middle of the pack stuff that we kind

457
00:22:46,279 --> 00:22:49,400
of see to where teams are, just because now you

458
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,200
get to a point where, even if you're so bad

459
00:22:52,799 --> 00:22:56,519
at the beginning, you would have to make that mid

460
00:22:56,559 --> 00:22:59,799
season move or have this mid season breakout to ensure

461
00:22:59,799 --> 00:23:02,119
that you have these top lottery odds. Yeah, you could.

462
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:04,440
The Wizards as just as an example, they could be

463
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:06,759
first in the lottery order right now. They could then

464
00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:10,880
be dead last or something like after February eighth. Well,

465
00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:13,359
this year's the fifth. After February fifth, that's a not

466
00:23:14,079 --> 00:23:16,799
insignificant chunk of the season. That's like thirty games, maybe

467
00:23:16,799 --> 00:23:17,640
a little bit more than that.

468
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,799
Speaker 2: Well, okay, I want to do an example and then

469
00:23:20,839 --> 00:23:23,799
ask you a question. Hopefully I'll remember the question. Probably not.

470
00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:26,799
So take Utah this year. They have that top eight

471
00:23:26,839 --> 00:23:28,480
protect a pick they would like to hold on to.

472
00:23:29,519 --> 00:23:33,279
So then the losses they accumulate sets them wherever they

473
00:23:33,279 --> 00:23:36,279
are before the deadline, and then the best way for

474
00:23:36,359 --> 00:23:39,200
them to keep their pick is to win as much

475
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,400
as possible after the trade deadline under this setup.

476
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,839
Speaker 1: And think about what that does for just certain playoff

477
00:23:44,839 --> 00:23:47,200
seating races where if you don't get to just count

478
00:23:47,759 --> 00:23:52,319
Utah Washington Brooklyn as this March fifteenth victory, and you're

479
00:23:52,319 --> 00:23:54,519
locked into battles up like if it's the Nuggets trying

480
00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:56,839
to like flak their way back into the top six

481
00:23:56,880 --> 00:23:58,039
after the Yokich injury.

482
00:23:58,519 --> 00:24:04,759
Speaker 2: So this rests on the the supposition that the players,

483
00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:07,839
so this organizationally, this aligns your incentives because it's like,

484
00:24:07,839 --> 00:24:09,880
you're not gonna rest guys you're gonna do You're not

485
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,240
gonna do the knights off the back spasms stuff. You're

486
00:24:14,279 --> 00:24:16,240
gonna play your players as a coaching staff in an

487
00:24:16,319 --> 00:24:19,519
organization because you want that high pick. What about the

488
00:24:19,559 --> 00:24:22,079
players then, because this is an argument that gets thrown

489
00:24:22,079 --> 00:24:25,119
out there sometimes of like, well, so, so the players

490
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,799
here want the team to be able to pick someone

491
00:24:28,799 --> 00:24:31,039
that will play over them, and that's why they're playing hard,

492
00:24:31,039 --> 00:24:32,680
you know what I mean? Like that argument comes up

493
00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:34,440
a lot of like, well, the players on the team

494
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:36,960
don't necessarily want a number one overall pick because like

495
00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:38,319
that guy's taking somebody's job.

496
00:24:38,799 --> 00:24:41,240
Speaker 1: Now. I understand that in the context of if it

497
00:24:41,319 --> 00:24:45,960
was this tournament specifically designed at allocating draft picks, but

498
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:48,759
you're also if you're a veteran or whether you're on

499
00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:51,440
your rookie scale, you're either you're still playing for your

500
00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:54,559
next contract then whether it's with that team or another,

501
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,799
and which is going to be more valuable you helping

502
00:24:57,799 --> 00:24:59,920
a team win and then they draft your replacement, and

503
00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,359
like you'll still hopefully be able to find other But

504
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,000
what would be Can you give me an example of

505
00:25:04,039 --> 00:25:07,039
a player that would be burned by that wouldn't have

506
00:25:07,039 --> 00:25:09,880
been burned in the first place by going about it

507
00:25:09,880 --> 00:25:10,240
that way?

508
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:12,519
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, well, why isn't like someone say

509
00:25:12,599 --> 00:25:15,160
Ace Bailey because I'm stuck on Utah or something like

510
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:18,960
why does Ace Bailey want aj Debonza to be on

511
00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:20,880
the team with him? Like is he concerned?

512
00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:25,599
Speaker 1: So I I guess if you're thinking that Ace Bailey

513
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:28,119
is so insecure about his position within the Jazz.

514
00:25:29,279 --> 00:25:31,759
Speaker 2: I'm just yeah, you're I don't I can't get inside

515
00:25:31,799 --> 00:25:34,279
Ace Bailey's head. He seems like a cool dude. Dude,

516
00:25:34,279 --> 00:25:38,119
But like, right, okay, that's interesting. I wonder if you

517
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:41,279
could tweak it, and like, because the money of the

518
00:25:41,599 --> 00:25:44,880
of the in season tournament seems to matter to like

519
00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:48,079
the lower end of the roster and the by extension,

520
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,720
like the highly paid players like care about it because

521
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,720
they want, like their minimum salary buddies to like get paid.

522
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,720
What if you could incentivize wins after the All Star

523
00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:59,759
break with like additional sal I don't know how you

524
00:25:59,759 --> 00:26:02,759
would ever do this because contracts are guaranteed at finite numbers,

525
00:26:02,799 --> 00:26:05,519
but like if you could make the money aspect of it,

526
00:26:06,079 --> 00:26:09,319
if you could introduce the money aspect, so you're.

527
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,880
Speaker 1: Making you're basically making a like in season tournament post

528
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:13,759
all Star breaks.

529
00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:19,519
Speaker 2: I'm just trying. I'm just thinking that this is a

530
00:26:19,519 --> 00:26:22,240
good I think this is I like this idea.

531
00:26:22,319 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: But I just also, by the way, I know I

532
00:26:24,519 --> 00:26:26,160
mentioned this is kind of tongue in cheek, but it

533
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,240
does add the element of what if one of these

534
00:26:28,279 --> 00:26:31,440
bad teams just goes out into side like because think

535
00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:33,839
about it from a rebuilding perspective. Let's use the Jazz

536
00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:36,559
as an example. Let's just say they are where they

537
00:26:36,559 --> 00:26:39,480
are in the lottery when the trade deadline rolls around.

538
00:26:39,839 --> 00:26:42,319
If they went out and made like a consolidation trade

539
00:26:42,359 --> 00:26:44,359
to get a better player who could then also help

540
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:47,079
them get a better pick, and now you're really, in

541
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:51,720
theory shrinking the rebuilding timeline because you've gotten better so

542
00:26:51,759 --> 00:26:53,599
that you could get another better player.

543
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:54,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

544
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know how many teams would do that,

545
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,880
but it would add just sort of another layer of

546
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,039
decision making to how you go about structuring your team

547
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:02,799
longer term.

548
00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,440
Speaker 2: That idea is that's really interesting because like you're sort

549
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,720
of getting it both ways right, Like you're you're getting

550
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,599
better now, but the but that's that actually facilitates you

551
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:16,720
getting better over a longer timeline. I think that gets

552
00:27:16,759 --> 00:27:19,160
really like talk about layers of complication, like when you're

553
00:27:19,839 --> 00:27:22,640
you're a team, I guess we'll just stick with Utah,

554
00:27:23,079 --> 00:27:26,240
Like would you trade future first round picks like to

555
00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:27,359
you know what I mean?

556
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 1: Like I don't think you, but like you have these

557
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,720
bottom of the barrel first that are gonna convent, Like

558
00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:34,079
you look at these teams that are really good?

559
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:34,319
Speaker 2: Is it?

560
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: And you decided, hey, we can get LaMelo ball for

561
00:27:37,480 --> 00:27:38,240
two or twelve?

562
00:27:38,440 --> 00:27:41,839
Speaker 2: Why not only that, but if you are trading for

563
00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:47,119
an upgrade now, because it also gets you assuming you

564
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,839
obviously it goes to that saying you have to have

565
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:52,519
you have to control the pick the following year, like

566
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,279
and and upgrading now also gives you this better shot

567
00:27:56,319 --> 00:27:59,039
at like oh man, like someone who could theoretically you

568
00:27:59,039 --> 00:28:00,839
pick them very high in the dry could help sooner.

569
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,000
You might be more willing to kick you know, down

570
00:28:04,039 --> 00:28:06,039
the road picks into a deal because you're like, we're

571
00:28:06,079 --> 00:28:10,119
kind of taking two steps towards short term improvement with

572
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,519
this win now trade and the fact that it gets

573
00:28:12,559 --> 00:28:16,039
us a better first rounder immediately, oh twenty twenty eight,

574
00:28:16,079 --> 00:28:18,039
like who knows by then, Like we'll be good, that'll

575
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:20,960
be a late That's interesting. You could really complicate in

576
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,279
a good way, complicate the trade, like decision making process.

577
00:28:25,319 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: I think now you mentioned the logistical purposes of figuring

578
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,799
out what is it? How do you like? Tracking the

579
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:34,839
lottery order would probably get all sorts of confusing, But

580
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:38,440
what is the other Like they figure out they don't

581
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,599
have teams scheduling games, and they figure that out in

582
00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:42,319
the middle of the year. So I want to ask

583
00:28:42,319 --> 00:28:45,440
you what it would be. Is there any functional downside

584
00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:47,000
to the way that the league operaate? Like what would

585
00:28:47,039 --> 00:28:49,519
be the potential downside to something like that? So I

586
00:28:49,519 --> 00:28:51,440
struggled to find one, but I might just be so

587
00:28:51,559 --> 00:28:53,119
locked into it being a good idea.

588
00:28:53,519 --> 00:28:56,799
Speaker 2: The downside to the losses pre trade and then wins

589
00:28:56,839 --> 00:29:03,640
after that trade deadline? Like what are the unintended consequences

590
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:03,960
you mean?

591
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: Or like, what, like I guess would the unintended consequences be?

592
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,799
Do you worry about a team getting too good that's

593
00:29:10,839 --> 00:29:13,279
in the life, Like you just keep going with Utah

594
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,720
to where it's Utah is not bad right, Like they're

595
00:29:16,759 --> 00:29:18,079
not the worst team in the league, and now all

596
00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:20,519
of a sudden if they're able to win, Like, because

597
00:29:20,519 --> 00:29:22,599
if you look at a team that's actively rebuilding, even

598
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:25,960
if the Washington Wizards decide we're gonna rosters, as is

599
00:29:26,119 --> 00:29:30,880
no other supplementary moves. Washington can play every everyone could

600
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:32,559
be healthy, they could play what they think is their

601
00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:36,440
best unit. They're probably right now at least gonna win

602
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:39,599
fewer games than It's like the Utah Jazz and so

603
00:29:40,119 --> 00:29:43,960
are you inadvertently kneecapping them? I don't know, but.

604
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: Well, right, because you would. Then so then here's another one,

605
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,519
like you would be incentivized as a bad team to

606
00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:51,640
come out of the gates. This is a terrible fan

607
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,640
experience situation too. You want to lose every single game

608
00:29:55,680 --> 00:30:00,039
you can lose from October twentieth or whatever until so

609
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:01,920
you want.

610
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 1: To start so bad, Like that's that.

611
00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:06,839
Speaker 2: Would not be great from an entertainment perspective, And just

612
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,079
like every team at the beginning of the year, it's

613
00:30:10,119 --> 00:30:12,559
fans are like, hey, you know what, don't count us

614
00:30:12,559 --> 00:30:15,480
out or like for the most part, like that optimism

615
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,599
that would just go away if you if you're a

616
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:23,640
Wizards fan and you know, we gotta lose for four

617
00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:27,319
months or three and a half months before the wins count.

618
00:30:27,759 --> 00:30:29,759
That's rough. And then I think that is you're right,

619
00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:33,160
Like it doesn't matter how how hard certain teams try

620
00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:36,440
to win after the fact or after the break, like

621
00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:38,720
they just won't be able to. And then so how

622
00:30:38,759 --> 00:30:40,880
do you get good again? Like how how do you

623
00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:42,119
get that that pitch?

624
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,400
Speaker 1: It does? And the other thing I just thought of

625
00:30:45,559 --> 00:30:49,680
is at least right now you're kind of properly waiting

626
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:53,920
an entire schedule. But some teams have more backloaded schedules

627
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:56,920
versus front loaded schedules, and so yeah, that that I

628
00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:58,960
didn't think about. I still think that this would be

629
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,160
way more from from an on court product perspective, if

630
00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:07,640
you were looking to make basketball relevant or the regular

631
00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,319
season more relevant than it is now. I do think

632
00:31:10,359 --> 00:31:12,720
this would solve that because how many teams are really

633
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,960
we might get a sam Hanky siko that says, you know,

634
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,720
oh and fifty one, and then our season begins at

635
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:22,319
game fifty two, But how often is that really gonna happen?

636
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? I do think anything you're raised, I forgot about this,

637
00:31:27,279 --> 00:31:31,880
Like the unbalanced strength of schedule stuff is an issue

638
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,680
with any version of there's a cutoff where wins and

639
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:38,599
losses like count for something different in the season. Like

640
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:42,759
that's that's like from a fairness perspective, like that that's

641
00:31:42,799 --> 00:31:46,039
got some thorns there. Yeah, I know that's interesting. I

642
00:31:46,039 --> 00:31:49,400
do think I do. I can imagine the really bad

643
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,960
teams that are sort of like organically bad, saying this

644
00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:57,240
is unfair because you're telling us to lose for sixty

645
00:31:57,279 --> 00:32:00,640
five seventy percent of the season because that's good for us,

646
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:04,440
and then to try to win later, like there's no

647
00:32:04,559 --> 00:32:07,519
way certain teams will ever be able. I could see

648
00:32:07,519 --> 00:32:11,759
that being the argument against it, But counter nobody cares

649
00:32:11,799 --> 00:32:13,960
about the NBA until later in the season anyway, So

650
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:16,200
if you're just gonna have people checked out during the

651
00:32:16,319 --> 00:32:20,880
NFL season for that early like loss incentivized part, I

652
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:23,880
don't know. If you get more viewership in March and April,

653
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,319
that's good, right, you don't have competition, then.

654
00:32:26,759 --> 00:32:29,079
Speaker 1: I think I like this better than just locking in

655
00:32:29,119 --> 00:32:32,640
the lottery odds March first, though. Yes it's my own idea.

656
00:32:32,799 --> 00:32:34,680
We're kind of the hybrid of a bunch of different ones,

657
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,119
so that's not surprising. Can we talk about let's talk

658
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:39,559
about one that you introduced to me.

659
00:32:40,319 --> 00:32:45,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's thirty percent baked. I'd say not quite half baked.

660
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:51,359
So I would I would this. This includes pick protections.

661
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,319
I like the limiting it to for top four, top fourteen,

662
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:59,160
that's part of it. I would unweight the lottery because

663
00:32:59,359 --> 00:33:05,720
here the goal here is I want every cloud. I

664
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,240
don't want the Warriors somehow to finish eighth in the

665
00:33:08,279 --> 00:33:10,519
conference and get the number one pick, I would unwait

666
00:33:10,599 --> 00:33:12,960
the lottery and I would expand the number of teams

667
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,400
in it. I'm sure there are drawbacks. I pray that

668
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,200
you will point them out. And so what you end

669
00:33:20,279 --> 00:33:24,599
up with is, to be specific, eighteen teams are in

670
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,720
the lottery, everybody that is not a top six seed

671
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,039
in their conference. So theoretically what you get is not

672
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,160
just teams having to choose between uh, like I'm moving

673
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:37,599
the cutoff up of like when it makes sense to tank.

674
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,599
So like, if you're the seven, eight, nine, ten teams,

675
00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,759
you're you're the playing teams. The teams that make it

676
00:33:43,759 --> 00:33:46,640
in to the seven or eight spots are still in

677
00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:50,039
the lottery. So like, not only do you have teams

678
00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,319
wanting to be in the play, and you still have

679
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,119
teams wanting to win the play, and you still have

680
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,599
teams like totally totally incentivized to just win as much

681
00:33:57,640 --> 00:33:59,519
as they can because like the argument is like who

682
00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:01,799
wants to be the eighth seed? Really, like what are

683
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:03,759
you getting out of that You're gonna get smoked by

684
00:34:03,759 --> 00:34:06,920
the number one seed. Well that's better than not be

685
00:34:07,119 --> 00:34:09,360
You're still in the lottery, Like you're a playoff team,

686
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,079
and yet you're in the lottery. So I'm just like

687
00:34:11,199 --> 00:34:14,800
bumping the cut the decision point up like a couple

688
00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:19,119
slots because I feel like there's no top six team.

689
00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:22,559
I don't think that's like you know what. I think

690
00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,159
I'd rather drop to seven or eight and have to

691
00:34:25,199 --> 00:34:27,280
go through the plane and have to face a one

692
00:34:27,400 --> 00:34:29,840
or two seed because I get a lottery pick, as

693
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:32,000
opposed to like, no, we'll stick at six, like if

694
00:34:32,039 --> 00:34:34,599
it's Denver, like not, well, Denver's a bad example because

695
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:36,760
they could win from seven or eight? But does that

696
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,360
make sense? Like I just I just want to avoid

697
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,679
good teams deciding it makes sense for us to not

698
00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:43,800
keep going for it.

699
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: But does flattening the lottery off because couldn't you in

700
00:34:48,039 --> 00:34:50,639
theory and this probably wouldn't be done from a it's

701
00:34:50,639 --> 00:34:52,960
not gonna be a coaching or a player thing. Let

702
00:34:53,039 --> 00:34:55,920
you Sam Presty is an example deciding my team is

703
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,400
so stacked right now, but we need more cost control talent,

704
00:34:58,519 --> 00:35:00,599
like we're just gonna come and we're gonna win it

705
00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:03,039
from the play in. I mean there would be an

706
00:35:03,079 --> 00:35:06,599
executive that would potentially decide that's a I think that's

707
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,440
kind of a small blip, so it's you're not gonna

708
00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:13,000
have How often would that happen? If ever, I'm mapping

709
00:35:13,079 --> 00:35:14,280
out in extreme.

710
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:17,360
Speaker 2: Well, well, no, I so that's where it's like trying

711
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:20,360
to decide where to because you could do like only

712
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,440
the top four seeds in each conference are are out

713
00:35:23,480 --> 00:35:25,800
of the lottery everybody. So now we're up to twenty

714
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,519
two teams are in an unweighted lottery. Like then then

715
00:35:29,559 --> 00:35:31,519
you might say, like, well, what's the difference between four

716
00:35:31,519 --> 00:35:33,559
and five? Like you might drop the five because you

717
00:35:33,559 --> 00:35:35,239
get in the lottery and then you have a road

718
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,159
series in the first round. Who cares if you're the

719
00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:40,000
thunder or whatever. You might make that trade off because

720
00:35:40,039 --> 00:35:43,199
you got a tiny now because it's unweighted, a tiny

721
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,719
chance at the number one pick. I'm trying to find

722
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,360
the bat. I think the six feels right to me,

723
00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:50,840
top six in each conference being out of the lottery.

724
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,599
But you're right, like, if the incentive to lose is

725
00:35:53,639 --> 00:35:56,119
still there, you might have this crazy You might have

726
00:35:56,119 --> 00:35:57,039
an irrational actor.

727
00:35:57,639 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: What do you mean by flat lottery odds for eighteen ten?

728
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,360
Though we're not talking about an equitable chance?

729
00:36:02,519 --> 00:36:06,599
Speaker 2: No, I think I want it fully Even so, if

730
00:36:06,599 --> 00:36:09,119
you're the Wizards and you have the fewest loss fewest

731
00:36:09,159 --> 00:36:11,960
wins in the league, and you're the number seven seed

732
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:16,920
in the West, and that's like say, uh, Phoenix and

733
00:36:17,000 --> 00:36:21,039
you've won forty six games, same lottery.

734
00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:23,239
Speaker 1: Odds, Why would you ever do you have to get

735
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:24,920
rid of the Why would you ever want to be

736
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:28,239
in the play in tournament at that? Why would you

737
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:31,840
want to Because if it's a chance if you either

738
00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:36,400
have the same percentage chance of only of eighteen other

739
00:36:36,440 --> 00:36:38,440
teams of getting them on one and eighteen shot of

740
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,400
getting the number one pick, or you can win a

741
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:43,360
play in game or two and then just get trucked

742
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,719
by the Oklahoma City Thunder in round one of the playoffs,

743
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,079
I'm wondering how many teams would opt against that.

744
00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,679
Speaker 2: Well, wait, so what what would the So do you

745
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:55,119
think then we should give?

746
00:36:56,079 --> 00:36:56,159
Speaker 1: Is?

747
00:36:56,199 --> 00:36:58,280
Speaker 2: The goal is, well, what types of tanking are we

748
00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:01,119
trying to address? I hate the middle tanking as opposed

749
00:37:01,159 --> 00:37:04,320
to the bottom of the standings tanking. So what if

750
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,400
you made it so that you don't flatten the lottery odds?

751
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,199
But what you do is give teams in the play

752
00:37:12,199 --> 00:37:16,360
in like better lottery odds than the teams with the

753
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:21,039
like four worst records. Does that address what you're talking about?

754
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:23,920
So you really you're gun into that plan?

755
00:37:25,159 --> 00:37:27,599
Speaker 1: Oh geez, maybe you could do something where if you

756
00:37:27,639 --> 00:37:32,360
make it so it's your seeds, your seeds seven, eight, nine, ten,

757
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,199
and then the lottery odds for that you get better

758
00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,880
if you make it out of the play in tournament, right,

759
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,360
because if you're giving it better than the bottom four teams,

760
00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:42,360
that would I think that would eliminate the middle part

761
00:37:42,599 --> 00:37:44,159
because if you're right away.

762
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:45,920
Speaker 2: I mean, the effect would not be that different than

763
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:49,840
the counting wins towards your lottery odds after the trade deadline,

764
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:52,559
because it's like the same arguments the really bad teams

765
00:37:52,599 --> 00:37:55,280
would make against that apply here where it's like we

766
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,800
can't compete. So you're what you're you're a building I

767
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:01,400
feeling is a political campaign. It's like we're trying to

768
00:38:01,400 --> 00:38:03,880
build out the middle class, Dan, We're really trying to

769
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,039
make it so there's a reason to want to be there.

770
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,599
Speaker 1: Well, but no, But at the same time, I think

771
00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:12,800
if you're not putting those odds above the bottom four teams,

772
00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,519
which at this point, so well, let's look at the

773
00:38:15,519 --> 00:38:18,320
West as an example, is so as of right now,

774
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,199
the Kings and the Pelicans, Like do you separate it

775
00:38:21,239 --> 00:38:23,440
by that's not fair because of the conference in balance,

776
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:25,719
But so right now the Wizard's Pacers, it works out

777
00:38:25,719 --> 00:38:30,599
that it's two per conference Wizards, Pacers, Kings, Pelicans. Bottom

778
00:38:30,599 --> 00:38:33,960
four teams would have the Wall apologies Pelicans, But you

779
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,480
know what that does to the lottery odds if you're

780
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:39,559
you could like you're the Mavericks, the Jazz or the

781
00:38:39,559 --> 00:38:41,840
Clippers that are kind of in that no man's land

782
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:45,559
right now, you're all of a sudden like going to go.

783
00:38:46,039 --> 00:38:48,400
I think by doing what you've outlined, you've kind of

784
00:38:48,440 --> 00:38:53,119
just eliminated basically, there will be two teams, maybe three

785
00:38:53,159 --> 00:38:56,000
teams per conference that might decide the second half of

786
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,719
the year we're not gonna or we're not gonna chase

787
00:38:57,719 --> 00:39:00,320
the play in. But I think honestly you're probably be

788
00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:04,480
looking at I don't I like that idea. I think

789
00:39:04,519 --> 00:39:06,480
as long as I think the bottom four teams still

790
00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:09,480
need slightly better odds. But if you're saying you make

791
00:39:09,519 --> 00:39:11,920
it into the play in and your odds get better

792
00:39:12,360 --> 00:39:14,599
if you're in the playing because you're only talking about

793
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,159
like what's the discrepancy right now between who's out of

794
00:39:18,199 --> 00:39:20,480
the plane the Clippers, the Jazz and the Mavericks versus

795
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,679
the Blazers and the Grizzlies. It's not huge. I mean,

796
00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:25,679
we're talking about a matter of a couple losses there

797
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:26,800
for the most part.

798
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 2: I do think the more we talk this out, the

799
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:33,199
more of this my idea is effectively accomplishing very similar

800
00:39:33,239 --> 00:39:35,159
things to what yours is, where it's just like we're

801
00:39:35,159 --> 00:39:37,960
trying to get teams that have some shot at it

802
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,239
to try to win a lot towards the end of

803
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:40,599
the year.

804
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:43,400
Speaker 1: At least mine ends up penalizing. Actually, but well, your

805
00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,800
original idea penalized bottom four teams more, I think when

806
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:50,039
you said give them the playing teams better odds than that,

807
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:50,559
I do think.

808
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:56,159
Speaker 2: Isn't there some element of this where it's like if

809
00:39:56,199 --> 00:40:01,360
the cost of twenty six teams competing is for just

810
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:03,320
sort of don't have a chance, like I'm kind of

811
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,559
willing to pay it is, you know what I mean,

812
00:40:05,599 --> 00:40:08,440
Like we're really we're taking away the chance of an

813
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:13,760
honorable rebuild being effective like by by doing this.

814
00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: But you are you are you are correct though, because

815
00:40:17,519 --> 00:40:20,280
it's even if what I just said as long as

816
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:23,719
you have the incentive. So it's you're better off finishing

817
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,599
with the twenty eighth worst record than twenty fourth. Teams

818
00:40:28,639 --> 00:40:30,440
are gonna steer toward if you don't think that you

819
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:32,239
can get up into play in territory, you are still

820
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,239
gonna steer towards the bottom. I guess I just land

821
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:40,000
at You're never gonna eradicate tanking in full unless you

822
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:41,039
do something.

823
00:40:41,599 --> 00:40:41,880
Speaker 2: Well.

824
00:40:42,079 --> 00:40:45,199
Speaker 1: This would be let's go to this idea, abolish the

825
00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:48,079
draft altogether. Yeah, I know some people are in favor

826
00:40:48,119 --> 00:40:52,360
of it. I'm I tend to be pro labor, but

827
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:57,280
you need to give this just kills smaller market teams.

828
00:40:57,360 --> 00:40:58,960
And I don't know what you could do to where

829
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:01,079
even if it was every five years, you're allotted a

830
00:41:01,119 --> 00:41:03,280
certain amount of money you could spend on draft picks.

831
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:07,599
I just this really threatens like what a half of

832
00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:10,119
the two thirds of the NBA. It feels like.

833
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,079
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was talking to a friend of the pod

834
00:41:13,119 --> 00:41:16,119
Bill about this, because he follows international soccer much more

835
00:41:16,119 --> 00:41:18,559
closely than I do, and I was just like, tell

836
00:41:18,559 --> 00:41:21,440
me about relegation, right, and like, because why you know

837
00:41:21,519 --> 00:41:24,119
that never gonna happen in the NBA it's crazy. It's

838
00:41:24,119 --> 00:41:26,800
like so punitive, right, Like if you are at the

839
00:41:26,800 --> 00:41:29,559
bottom of the table of like say the Premier League

840
00:41:30,199 --> 00:41:34,679
and you so you're relegated. The following year, you lose

841
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:37,199
a bunch of money from like broadcast rights because you're

842
00:41:37,199 --> 00:41:39,599
not in the Premier League anymore. So there's this giant

843
00:41:39,639 --> 00:41:42,400
set down, Like players have stuff in their contracts like

844
00:41:42,440 --> 00:41:46,239
built in it's brutal, right, so if you fall out,

845
00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:49,639
you just caught it. Like the incentive to not get

846
00:41:49,679 --> 00:41:52,320
relegated is like off the charts, like you must win

847
00:41:52,480 --> 00:41:55,840
every game you possibly can, because like the punishment is

848
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,840
so crazy, right, And I was like, this would never

849
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,880
happen in the NBA, But that's awesome, Like it accomplishes

850
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,599
what we're going for, like you try to win all

851
00:42:04,639 --> 00:42:06,960
the time, no matter what. And I was like, why

852
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:09,440
can't this happen? And what he was pointing out is that,

853
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:14,320
like the setup of international soccer is wild west. There's

854
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,440
no salary cap, there's no luxury tax, it's pure capitalism.

855
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,559
There's no draft. So that's what brought me to this,

856
00:42:20,679 --> 00:42:23,440
is like, so what's your setup look like? Because in soccer,

857
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:25,679
it's like you sign a fourteen year old into your

858
00:42:25,679 --> 00:42:28,719
developmental academy and you bring him along until he's ready

859
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,719
to play for the big club. Like is that what

860
00:42:30,760 --> 00:42:33,719
we want in the NBA? Do we want like the

861
00:42:33,719 --> 00:42:38,000
Los Angeles Lakers prep academy where there you know, there's

862
00:42:38,039 --> 00:42:40,000
a bunch of kids, Yeah, just out of middle school

863
00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:43,239
that are now in your program that you're developing, that

864
00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:48,559
you're paying all Like that feels weird it, Yeah, Like

865
00:42:49,199 --> 00:42:52,320
if you're gonna abolish the draft, like you just inevitably

866
00:42:52,320 --> 00:42:54,719
get into a setup like that, because how else how

867
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:58,639
are you getting players? Like you're just you're you're acquiring them,

868
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:01,880
signing them and then paying them money and hoping they

869
00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:05,519
become good. Like that's that's what it is. And so

870
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:07,360
then it's just the haves have what they have and

871
00:43:07,400 --> 00:43:09,840
the haves not have nots never get there right like

872
00:43:10,199 --> 00:43:13,360
because the market size. So the abolishing the draft comes

873
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:18,119
with like so many tricky Like the league is so

874
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,000
different with no draft, is what I'm saying.

875
00:43:20,039 --> 00:43:24,159
Speaker 1: I've actually spent time thinking about what is the way

876
00:43:24,199 --> 00:43:27,639
you could abolish the draft but still not completely nuke

877
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:32,039
the competitive landscape, And I haven't come up with anything.

878
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,440
Not that I'm some genius that like, I'll give me

879
00:43:34,559 --> 00:43:39,679
enough time and I'll sell it. But I just think

880
00:43:39,679 --> 00:43:41,960
that that would be catastrophic for the league has spent

881
00:43:42,079 --> 00:43:43,960
so much time trying And by the way, they're not

882
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:45,559
talking about this, but a lot of people bring it

883
00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:48,119
up and they say, what this is stupid that players

884
00:43:48,119 --> 00:43:52,159
are assigned where they go. I if this was real life,

885
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:55,440
like sports is meaningful, it keeps us employed, like this

886
00:43:55,519 --> 00:43:57,639
isn't This is a game and these guys are getting

887
00:43:57,639 --> 00:44:00,840
played so much. It's an entertainment product, and I don't

888
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,320
like they If you want to talk about getting rid

889
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:06,199
of restricted free agency after that first contract, those first

890
00:44:06,199 --> 00:44:08,800
four or five years, that might be a different discussion.

891
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:11,599
But abolishing the draft, I think just puts too many

892
00:44:11,639 --> 00:44:13,239
to and then at the end of the day, it's

893
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,559
not just about well, you really only care. It's not

894
00:44:15,599 --> 00:44:17,760
about the bottom line for the owners. It's you need

895
00:44:17,800 --> 00:44:19,880
to give fan base a reason to think that they

896
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,079
have a chance, and that's what the draft. By by

897
00:44:23,119 --> 00:44:28,960
the way, especially now because free agency just doesn't exist anymore. Basically, no, you're.

898
00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 2: You're selling wins or you're selling hope. And if you

899
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,239
don't have a draft, I don't know how you're selling

900
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:35,719
hope to the worst teams like that, you just you

901
00:44:35,760 --> 00:44:37,760
have to you have to be that much better at

902
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,079
everything related to team building. And it's just like those

903
00:44:41,119 --> 00:44:44,559
markets are not equipped to just win with a hand

904
00:44:44,639 --> 00:44:46,440
tie behind their back. If you're not gonna be able

905
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,920
to draft the guy that changes your franchise. It's really

906
00:44:49,280 --> 00:44:52,280
it's tough. Like I again though, like I get it,

907
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,039
like at some on some level, it's like it is

908
00:44:55,119 --> 00:44:58,320
objectively weird and sort of unfair that, like you're one

909
00:44:58,360 --> 00:44:59,920
of the best in the world at what you do

910
00:45:00,039 --> 00:45:02,039
and you have no control over where you get to

911
00:45:02,119 --> 00:45:04,639
like ply that trade, Like that's weird. But but again

912
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:05,599
I agree with you.

913
00:45:06,199 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 1: I mean, the NBA is basically a version of socialism

914
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:12,000
when you think about it, because of the way that

915
00:45:12,039 --> 00:45:15,880
revenue shares principle for sure, yeah, right, the revenue sharing,

916
00:45:16,039 --> 00:45:18,920
the way that that works, and even the there's a

917
00:45:18,960 --> 00:45:21,239
max salary, and so if you're gonna bolish the drafts,

918
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,960
you actual abolish the max salary. So it's hey, you

919
00:45:23,960 --> 00:45:26,480
can pick where you want to play when you're young,

920
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:28,679
but like you're going to be maxed out at what

921
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,760
you can make when you're the best point of your career.

922
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:32,880
It's just so I think there would be too many

923
00:45:32,920 --> 00:45:35,239
moving parts behind it. What it would do maybe or

924
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:39,880
increase the value of is scouting departments probably become just

925
00:45:40,079 --> 00:45:43,639
like the most sought after positions to be filled because

926
00:45:43,800 --> 00:45:46,400
go out and find Jokic, like the guy who would

927
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,639
have been drafted during a case of Rito commercial.

928
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: And it would also professionalize much lower levels of the sport,

929
00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:56,400
which is already a problem, like like basically high school

930
00:45:56,440 --> 00:46:00,079
basketball is professionalized now, you know, but it would but

931
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,559
if you were incentive, if you can't draft the guy,

932
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:04,880
then you better be you better find him first, and

933
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:07,760
that's gonna be middle school or like something crazy like that,

934
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:10,599
right where I guess you would still have a cap on,

935
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:13,159
like maybe you just put the age you know you

936
00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:16,039
got to be whatever it is now. I can't even remember,

937
00:46:16,119 --> 00:46:19,239
like a year out of your high school class.

938
00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:23,079
Speaker 1: And do you think that would do? But maybe it

939
00:46:23,079 --> 00:46:24,840
wouldn't have an impact at all. But right now, when

940
00:46:25,079 --> 00:46:28,480
people talk about players sitting out of games in college,

941
00:46:28,920 --> 00:46:30,360
just like, does it make it more like that you

942
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,400
would get more of those cases if they have to

943
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,000
go to college or go somewhere else or would it

944
00:46:34,039 --> 00:46:36,440
not impacted it just because I guess if the idea

945
00:46:36,679 --> 00:46:40,360
is it professionalizes the sport even more at lower levels.

946
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:43,800
You might be coming out of your sophomore in high school,

947
00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:46,159
you know where you're gonna sign after your freshman year

948
00:46:46,159 --> 00:46:47,119
in college? Maybe?

949
00:46:47,159 --> 00:46:49,199
Speaker 2: Right? So why not just this is the thing? Like

950
00:46:49,239 --> 00:46:51,440
that would take so many additional steps, like why not

951
00:46:51,519 --> 00:46:53,800
just have youth academies where like you're in the Lakers

952
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,199
program because they signed you when you're a teen, you know,

953
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:57,920
like that kind of thing, because why you want to

954
00:46:57,960 --> 00:47:01,000
go You're gonna go play for this other like sort

955
00:47:01,000 --> 00:47:03,360
of professional but like we've all agreed, it's at a

956
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:05,840
lower level talking about college basketball. Now you're gonna go

957
00:47:05,840 --> 00:47:08,199
play for this other professional organization for a while, like

958
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:12,079
and not be in the I don't know that there's

959
00:47:12,079 --> 00:47:14,920
probably more to talk about than any other fix here

960
00:47:14,960 --> 00:47:18,039
with abolishing the draft, but it's just like it's all

961
00:47:18,119 --> 00:47:20,760
big picture, like the sport would have to look totally different,

962
00:47:20,840 --> 00:47:23,159
I think for this to even be started.

963
00:47:23,960 --> 00:47:25,719
Speaker 1: I have one more that's being bandied about, and I

964
00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,960
don't know if you've anymore after that, but conduct the

965
00:47:29,039 --> 00:47:31,719
lottery for every pick, for every pick in the lottery,

966
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,559
So right now it determines the top four picks, and

967
00:47:34,599 --> 00:47:37,239
so now it would determine all fourteen, and so you

968
00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:39,840
keep the odds the same. But there's a like, right

969
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,199
now you have a floor of how far you can

970
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:44,960
fall if you have the worst record, but now there

971
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:46,719
would there would basically be no floor.

972
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:51,199
Speaker 2: So the it's interesting. So then if you are so

973
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:53,480
no longer, if you have one of the four worst records,

974
00:47:53,599 --> 00:47:56,519
are you guaranteed to be in the top eight? We

975
00:47:56,559 --> 00:48:02,199
still have so like you're so, this would the bottom

976
00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:06,800
of the league right because you can fall farther. And

977
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,320
it does it help the mid tier or does it

978
00:48:10,360 --> 00:48:12,440
not affect? I guess I don't know.

979
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:15,320
Speaker 1: I think it helps. It would I almost feel like it.

980
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:19,320
I actually so, this is not my idea. I think

981
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:21,199
it was Who did I hear talk about? It was

982
00:48:21,199 --> 00:48:24,320
Tim McMahon. I want to say, I don't. I think

983
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,440
it might incentivize more of what we saw from the

984
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:29,639
Mavericks in twenty twenty two.

985
00:48:30,519 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: What year was that?

986
00:48:31,599 --> 00:48:34,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's well, you have okay, I only have

987
00:48:34,960 --> 00:48:37,480
an x percent chance of get one point eight percent

988
00:48:37,519 --> 00:48:39,920
chance of getting the number one pick. But now if

989
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:43,840
it's being picked for everything like there, I think it

990
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:47,039
hurts the It definitely hurts the bottom feeders for sure,

991
00:48:47,519 --> 00:48:51,239
but I don't know if it does enough to prevent tanking.

992
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:52,800
And then if anything, I think there's a chance it

993
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,960
might increase it unless I'm missed. Like understanding how that

994
00:48:55,960 --> 00:48:59,960
would work, because if you're a team that's it could

995
00:49:00,119 --> 00:49:01,920
be in the play in. Let's use this season as

996
00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,400
an example. When the Oklahoma City Thunder exists, there is

997
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:08,760
I don't care how you feel about the Phoenix, Suns,

998
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:11,679
the Warriors, the Grizzlies, the Blazers, the Clippers, none of

999
00:49:11,719 --> 00:49:13,920
those teams are beating the Thunder, right, So if you're

1000
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:17,599
faced with the prospect of I can go into the

1001
00:49:17,639 --> 00:49:20,920
playan and face the Thunder if I win, get trucked,

1002
00:49:21,159 --> 00:49:26,320
or I could just have this chance like fourteen different

1003
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:29,079
drawings of getting into I mean it's not the number

1004
00:49:29,079 --> 00:49:32,400
one pick, but it's the number five pick. Yeah, I

1005
00:49:32,440 --> 00:49:34,280
think you're gonna see more teams kind of pivot out

1006
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:35,239
of playing territory.

1007
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,039
Speaker 2: If that, yeah, that's not what you want. That's not

1008
00:49:37,079 --> 00:49:39,039
what you want. You want more teams in that range

1009
00:49:39,079 --> 00:49:42,960
to be trying to win as much as possible because again,

1010
00:49:43,039 --> 00:49:46,199
like the difference between like a forty two win team

1011
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:48,599
and a fifty win team on a lot of nights

1012
00:49:48,639 --> 00:49:50,519
is just like who's playing and if you're just gonna

1013
00:49:50,519 --> 00:49:52,880
shut you know, they could be on equal footing. You

1014
00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:55,239
want to you want those teams to both be incentivized

1015
00:49:55,239 --> 00:49:58,880
to like play everybody and give max effort. So yeah,

1016
00:49:58,920 --> 00:50:01,119
I don't know about that one. So we solved it,

1017
00:50:01,199 --> 00:50:02,920
I think, right, is that what we did.

1018
00:50:03,039 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: So the other one, I think we did kind of

1019
00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:07,760
talk about this. I've seen some people mentioned too, like

1020
00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:12,239
why not just hold the tournament like like a lottery

1021
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,639
tournament for teams competing for them and the winner gets

1022
00:50:15,679 --> 00:50:18,320
the like that's how you order the picks. You mentioned

1023
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:21,559
it before, though then you entered the territory of you

1024
00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:24,920
have guys who are supposed to compete for their so

1025
00:50:24,960 --> 00:50:28,000
you would have to make the financial incentive. So it's

1026
00:50:28,039 --> 00:50:31,079
not happening in season, it's this postseason tournament. I don't

1027
00:50:31,119 --> 00:50:33,679
know what the financial incentive would need to be for

1028
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:37,199
players to get on board, for active players to get

1029
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:37,920
on board with that.

1030
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:41,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, it would. I can't It's hard to know. Way

1031
00:50:41,199 --> 00:50:43,679
more than the than the in season tournament, I would think,

1032
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:47,000
because like especially if it's like a an end of

1033
00:50:47,039 --> 00:50:50,320
season thing. It's just like we're tired, man. We just

1034
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,679
went through a lot of these teams have just endured

1035
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,199
like a bunch of losses come out of get like,

1036
00:50:55,199 --> 00:50:57,760
oh yeah, let's flip the switch. Now it's April. We've

1037
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,400
all played three thousand minutes. Yet that means tough.

1038
00:51:02,159 --> 00:51:04,280
Speaker 1: Do you have any other Have you seen any other one?

1039
00:51:04,440 --> 00:51:06,880
I don't even ready for I remember reading up on

1040
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:08,760
it a couple of years ago, and I already forgot

1041
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:10,000
the principles of the wheel.

1042
00:51:10,199 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 2: The wheel is too complicated. I'm not smart enough. I'm

1043
00:51:13,000 --> 00:51:16,079
sure it's not complicated, but it's just like I don't

1044
00:51:16,360 --> 00:51:19,079
I think because what we talk, I think like, so

1045
00:51:19,159 --> 00:51:22,760
you're gonna time you're like peaks and valleys organizationally in

1046
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,079
line with like when you know you're in the running

1047
00:51:25,119 --> 00:51:27,840
for the top several picks, Like, I don't think that's.

1048
00:51:27,840 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 1: And the thing I struggle with too is just even

1049
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:32,280
just looking at the current if you were to do

1050
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,159
anything to limit the number of times a team can

1051
00:51:35,199 --> 00:51:37,679
be in the top four, what if there is just

1052
00:51:37,719 --> 00:51:42,119
some catastrophic injury that is not ruining just that season,

1053
00:51:42,199 --> 00:51:44,639
but now you've lost your franchise corner zone is that

1054
00:51:44,679 --> 00:51:46,880
they just come back and they're never the same. That

1055
00:51:47,039 --> 00:51:48,679
just it makes me feel icky. I think it is

1056
00:51:48,679 --> 00:51:49,800
the scientific word.

1057
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:53,800
Speaker 2: For yeah, yeah, I guess, Like I was just gonna

1058
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,679
ask you, like, what, who do you think at the

1059
00:51:55,840 --> 00:51:59,480
moment the system we have in place is not serving

1060
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:08,679
like who the way it is right now? The sports I'm.

1061
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:09,400
Speaker 1: Dead I'm dead ass serious because this whole injury reports stuff,

1062
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:11,400
this is all about. To me, I think it's more

1063
00:52:11,440 --> 00:52:13,719
about sports betting than the I think the league right

1064
00:52:13,760 --> 00:52:18,360
now has said seven consecutive different champions. The parody is there.

1065
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,880
And how many how many teams you could look at

1066
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:23,039
You could look at the I'm not talking to you specifically,

1067
00:52:23,199 --> 00:52:25,239
you could look at the records and tell me who sucks.

1068
00:52:25,559 --> 00:52:29,159
You're absolutely right. How many teams are tanking right now?

1069
00:52:31,280 --> 00:52:34,639
Speaker 2: I mean it's is it? Well, like we even Washington,

1070
00:52:34,679 --> 00:52:36,559
we keep going back to like yeah, but they're not,

1071
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:38,320
They're just organically bad.

1072
00:52:39,400 --> 00:52:41,800
Speaker 1: Might be the only team they might be the only

1073
00:52:41,840 --> 00:52:43,360
team you could say them. And if you want to

1074
00:52:43,360 --> 00:52:45,480
say Brooklyn because of the way they built out their

1075
00:52:45,519 --> 00:52:49,079
team for this season, that's two out of thirty. The

1076
00:52:49,199 --> 00:52:52,000
Kings thought this is again this is why the Kings.

1077
00:52:52,039 --> 00:52:53,840
It's more the Kings thought they were going to be good.

1078
00:52:53,880 --> 00:52:56,840
Even the Pelicans, Derek Queen is going to be really good,

1079
00:52:56,920 --> 00:53:01,000
but like they totally miscalculated their position. And yeah, it's

1080
00:53:01,199 --> 00:53:04,800
and but even they've played better under James Berego. You

1081
00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,000
look at the standings, there are two teams. I think

1082
00:53:07,079 --> 00:53:09,440
Max right now, I think what the issue you're trying

1083
00:53:09,440 --> 00:53:12,039
to solve is that number is going to go up

1084
00:53:12,440 --> 00:53:15,239
after the trade, And it's question you're trying to solve.

1085
00:53:15,719 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 2: We started this by pointing out the examples of like

1086
00:53:18,039 --> 00:53:20,280
the mid tier tanking and how rare they were right,

1087
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,679
and it's just kind of like that that's what you're

1088
00:53:24,119 --> 00:53:27,119
working to solve, Like Utah is this season is the

1089
00:53:27,199 --> 00:53:30,360
example of like, okay, there's a little we can see

1090
00:53:30,360 --> 00:53:33,400
how this might go right and and it's maybe it's

1091
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:35,400
different because the Jazz said they weren't going to do this,

1092
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:40,239
but like you're just worried about a couple teams. Maybe

1093
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,880
it's more than that in the middle that steer into

1094
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:47,840
the skid and I and like ultimately we maybe we

1095
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,320
landed on this early. Like that just doesn't happen often

1096
00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:53,280
enough to like, let's revamp the whole process. You know,

1097
00:53:53,360 --> 00:53:56,360
I don't know. I'm just I don't like that stuff.

1098
00:53:56,719 --> 00:53:58,920
But I don't know if we are you are you

1099
00:53:59,039 --> 00:54:01,360
looking for solutions to a problem that is not nearly

1100
00:54:01,400 --> 00:54:02,559
as big as it seems.

1101
00:54:02,599 --> 00:54:06,559
Speaker 1: Maybe is actually I think if we operate under the

1102
00:54:06,599 --> 00:54:11,199
guys that this is all about competitive integrity, Yes, but

1103
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:13,119
I think that the NBA, A big part of this

1104
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:17,000
is that sports betting and the money that they're going

1105
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:19,119
to stand to make off at the interest that it drives,

1106
00:54:19,199 --> 00:54:21,320
it gets a lot harder to maintain that if that's

1107
00:54:21,360 --> 00:54:23,760
why this all this injury port stuff exists. And look,

1108
00:54:23,920 --> 00:54:26,360
I'm ultimately fine at the end of the day with

1109
00:54:26,400 --> 00:54:29,320
anything that improves the quality of basketball wire to wire.

1110
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:32,280
You could sign me up for it, but I just don't.

1111
00:54:33,199 --> 00:54:34,760
I don't, I don't. It's like you said, I don't know.

1112
00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:36,679
If this is a big enough issue. I would love

1113
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:38,880
to see some of these solutions in that, like the

1114
00:54:38,920 --> 00:54:41,679
limited pick protections. I like the way we kind of

1115
00:54:42,079 --> 00:54:45,039
half baked, like your idea out with the flattened lottery

1116
00:54:45,039 --> 00:54:47,880
odds or getting into the plane and winning, like if

1117
00:54:47,880 --> 00:54:50,159
you win it, you have better lottery odds. I wouldn't

1118
00:54:50,159 --> 00:54:54,360
mind seeing the losses pre trade deadline within because I

1119
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:57,199
think that would just flip the way that teams operate

1120
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,000
on its head. Could Could they try something like and

1121
00:55:01,039 --> 00:55:04,440
you don't know who's gonna actively end up here, so

1122
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:07,280
that would also increase the intrigue. But do you just

1123
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:10,239
sort it by who is the best point differential or

1124
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,039
record against top ten teams at the end of the season,

1125
00:55:13,079 --> 00:55:15,480
like the of the of the non playoff teams.

1126
00:55:16,400 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 2: You're gonna say so before the season starts, your team

1127
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:22,880
is assigned a random lottery pick and you don't know

1128
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:26,559
what it is until Draft night and or something like that,

1129
00:55:26,920 --> 00:55:28,880
and you just play the whole year. You don't know

1130
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:31,400
if you're incentivized to win or to lose. The lottery

1131
00:55:31,480 --> 00:55:33,639
order is set. It's got nothing to do with how

1132
00:55:33,679 --> 00:55:35,320
you perform.

1133
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 1: I don't know already deciding on TV what would trades

1134
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:41,559
look like at that point?

1135
00:55:41,880 --> 00:55:44,320
Speaker 2: Oh, wouldn't that be exciting, Like you're let's we're gonna

1136
00:55:44,320 --> 00:55:46,480
swap first round picks, don't know what, don't know what

1137
00:55:46,559 --> 00:55:51,440
it is, let's just let's just gamble. That'd be great.

1138
00:55:53,280 --> 00:55:56,360
Speaker 1: But I do it does feel like though, if we're

1139
00:55:56,360 --> 00:55:59,960
operating saying this is about the competitive integrity of the game.

1140
00:56:00,039 --> 00:56:01,920
It feels more about the mid season tanking than the

1141
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:05,119
fall season tanking. Now, right, it feels like this system

1142
00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:10,519
has at least weeded out serial entire season tanking.

1143
00:56:11,079 --> 00:56:17,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we're pretty close to like optimizing given

1144
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,440
the circumstances, like given the setup of the league, given how.

1145
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:22,039
Speaker 1: They won't short on the schedule.

1146
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I think all that's yeah, I just think

1147
00:56:25,639 --> 00:56:29,079
like there are more drastic solutions, but like and I

1148
00:56:29,159 --> 00:56:30,800
just I think it's close to as good as it

1149
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:33,039
can be. I still think there's a tweak or two

1150
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:37,119
some version of of like pull pull like elements from

1151
00:56:37,159 --> 00:56:39,960
what we've gone through here, there's there's a there's a

1152
00:56:40,000 --> 00:56:44,079
better version. But like the play in the flattened odds

1153
00:56:44,119 --> 00:56:46,159
from a few years ago, like all that has been

1154
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:48,880
like pretty effective. I think. So, I feel like the

1155
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,639
league is close, but but it's it's not. It's definitely

1156
00:56:51,639 --> 00:56:52,159
not perfect.

1157
00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:55,000
Speaker 1: Another potential solution. I'm surprised I didn't think of this.

1158
00:56:55,199 --> 00:56:59,119
What if you did something to increase the variability in

1159
00:56:59,159 --> 00:57:01,519
the first round of the playoffs, like if you brought

1160
00:57:01,519 --> 00:57:03,679
it back to best of five, and so now you

1161
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:05,800
are more incentivized to get into the plan, or if

1162
00:57:05,840 --> 00:57:07,519
you just went nuclear and said this is best of

1163
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:08,239
three now.

1164
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:13,599
Speaker 2: People, mm, so does that though, devalue the regular season?

1165
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,159
Because like, can.

1166
00:57:17,079 --> 00:57:19,679
Speaker 1: You argue the playing already threatens to do that?

1167
00:57:21,800 --> 00:57:25,559
Speaker 2: Yeah? We have what does that achieve? What are we accomplished?

1168
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:27,719
Speaker 1: The thinking is if you have a because part of

1169
00:57:27,800 --> 00:57:29,719
right now is if you were pivoting out of the plane,

1170
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,360
it's well, I'm not going to beat the thunder if

1171
00:57:32,400 --> 00:57:33,960
I make it out, or I'm not going to beat

1172
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,599
the rockets or whatever. Four times and seven tries. Is

1173
00:57:36,679 --> 00:57:39,079
the seven or the eight seed? Yeah, if you have

1174
00:57:39,079 --> 00:57:42,239
to beat them two times and three tries a little

1175
00:57:42,239 --> 00:57:42,599
bit different?

1176
00:57:42,719 --> 00:57:45,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, yeah, that's that's true. That you you shrink

1177
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,559
the sample, like anomalies are more likely. I could see that.

1178
00:57:49,039 --> 00:57:51,639
And so then you're just so, yeah, you're not steering

1179
00:57:51,679 --> 00:57:53,679
out of the play in or one of the seven

1180
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:55,599
or eight spots because like, I don't know, Yeah, we

1181
00:57:55,639 --> 00:57:57,239
can't beat them four out of seven, but we could

1182
00:57:57,239 --> 00:58:00,519
beat them three out of five or whatever. Right, Interesting,

1183
00:58:00,719 --> 00:58:02,480
I think maybe you'd have to add rounds to the

1184
00:58:02,519 --> 00:58:05,039
playoffs because teams would be pissed that you're loose, costing

1185
00:58:05,079 --> 00:58:05,599
them play Do.

1186
00:58:05,599 --> 00:58:07,239
Speaker 1: You just have a thirty team playoff? But do you

1187
00:58:07,239 --> 00:58:09,679
remember in youth sports wheres every team makes the playoffs

1188
00:58:09,679 --> 00:58:10,920
single elimination single.

1189
00:58:11,519 --> 00:58:14,079
Speaker 2: I mean, the NCAA tournament's still pretty popular, Dan, we

1190
00:58:14,079 --> 00:58:16,239
could just throw them all in their single eliminations.

1191
00:58:16,679 --> 00:58:19,239
Speaker 1: The NBA needs to expand to what are you sixty four?

1192
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:20,960
You want to do one hundred and twenty eight teams

1193
00:58:21,000 --> 00:58:21,559
thirty two?

1194
00:58:21,599 --> 00:58:23,199
Speaker 2: If you could do it with thirty two, you just

1195
00:58:23,239 --> 00:58:24,679
need two more Vegas Seattle?

1196
00:58:25,440 --> 00:58:28,480
Speaker 1: How did the playoffs end up lasting three four months? Though?

1197
00:58:28,599 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 2: Oh there's the issue and like the gate rope, like

1198
00:58:31,039 --> 00:58:35,280
you just you're costing teams multiple games? Yeah, but can

1199
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:39,119
you imagine the spectacle of the one versus sixteen? Talk

1200
00:58:39,159 --> 00:58:40,880
about small sample anomalies like.

1201
00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:44,360
Speaker 1: You'd because I do love the play in element though,

1202
00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:47,760
like the play has been an unequivocal success, like that

1203
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:50,800
has been like he has just been absolutely awesome, and

1204
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,280
it's now you would be getting into the run level.

1205
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,880
How do you incentivize making the play in because then

1206
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,119
that should in theory curtail tanking, because you could if

1207
00:59:00,119 --> 00:59:02,480
I engineer it from there and say, maybe this isn't

1208
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:07,000
about you know, lottery odds. It's about increasing the opportunities

1209
00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:08,920
to win if you do make the play in. But

1210
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:11,199
to your point, you're gonna get pushed back. I would

1211
00:59:11,239 --> 00:59:14,760
be curious, though, how many teams in the league could

1212
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,039
you say, right now would absolutely vote against shifting the

1213
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:19,039
first round to best of three or best of five.

1214
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 2: How many teams in the league. Well, I would flip

1215
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:26,159
it and say not enough owners. The twenty three owners

1216
00:59:26,199 --> 00:59:27,360
would not vote for it.

1217
00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:29,639
Speaker 1: You know, if the Bulls are going to be all

1218
00:59:29,639 --> 00:59:31,760
over that, or unless they don't want to play that long.

1219
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:35,159
Speaker 2: I mean the war like selfishly, I believe the Warriors

1220
00:59:35,199 --> 00:59:37,440
have a great shot in a single game against a

1221
00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:39,000
lot of teams. They're just not going to win a

1222
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,639
long series against anybody. So let's do it. Sounds great.

1223
00:59:43,480 --> 00:59:46,079
Speaker 1: Do you have anything else on the look? I agree

1224
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:47,960
that the mid season tankings, we're not. I'm trying to

1225
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,920
come across the tankings sympathizer. Some of them more radical

1226
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:53,280
idea like that. The one that I hate the most

1227
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:56,000
that seems realistic, the abolish the draft. It's just not happening.

1228
00:59:56,199 --> 00:59:58,360
The one I hate the most is very clearly you

1229
00:59:58,400 --> 01:00:00,559
can't have a top four picking can sec years. I

1230
01:00:00,599 --> 01:00:02,639
think the consequences would be disastrous.

1231
01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:05,519
Speaker 2: I just and it doesn't. It doesn't solve the problem.

1232
01:00:05,719 --> 01:00:08,960
It doesn't like I mean, yeah, we've agreed that, like

1233
01:00:09,000 --> 01:00:12,559
the worst tanking is not the sixers process tanking, Like

1234
01:00:12,639 --> 01:00:15,519
nobody's doing that. Then that's what that would address. And

1235
01:00:15,559 --> 01:00:18,360
so we've got a solution in search of a problem.

1236
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,159
Speaker 1: In that case, do you have anything else? Are you

1237
01:00:21,199 --> 01:00:22,239
ready to take us out of here?

1238
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:27,039
Speaker 2: I think I think an hour on tanking is probably enough.

1239
01:00:28,039 --> 01:00:30,599
Plus we solved it at like minute twenty eight, as

1240
01:00:30,639 --> 01:00:33,639
I said, So we're good. Thanks everybody for listening, for

1241
01:00:33,679 --> 01:00:36,079
watching rate review, and subscribe during our discord links for

1242
01:00:36,119 --> 01:00:38,000
that in the YouTube and podcast description. Leave us a

1243
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:40,880
comment here, get there's I mean, I hesitate to say

1244
01:00:40,880 --> 01:00:44,119
we did not canvass every solution, So please let us

1245
01:00:44,119 --> 01:00:46,519
know in the YouTube comments wherever you're consuming this, let

1246
01:00:46,639 --> 01:00:49,239
us know what you're is. How big an issue is tanking?

1247
01:00:49,559 --> 01:00:50,199
How do you fix it?

1248
01:00:50,239 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 1: What if? What if players you know cool has to

1249
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:54,960
play with a different team every other year, like it

1250
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,159
so that you pick the every every player who makes

1251
01:00:58,159 --> 01:01:00,840
an All Star game can only with the same team

1252
01:01:00,880 --> 01:01:03,679
for maximum of two consecutive seasons. That's how we spread

1253
01:01:03,679 --> 01:01:06,920
the we're not top that. You can't double back. You

1254
01:01:06,920 --> 01:01:09,320
can't double back. You played for the Nuggets, then you

1255
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:12,400
go play for the play for the Lakers. But then

1256
01:01:12,440 --> 01:01:14,440
you have to go. Yeah, that's I look forward to

1257
01:01:14,920 --> 01:01:16,320
the Warriors that will be over the course of his

1258
01:01:16,400 --> 01:01:19,519
sixteen year crew. That's eight teams get the Jokic experience.

1259
01:01:19,679 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 2: Actually yeah, I mean, look, you want parody, there you go.

1260
01:01:23,719 --> 01:01:28,880
Jokic has to move. This is okay. Shout sprang, Mila Kino, apologies.

1261
01:01:28,960 --> 01:01:29,519
Jared Allen