1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:04,480 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Mind Next Time and Mind over Murder. 2 00:00:04,519 --> 00:00:08,320 As we continue are fascinating conversation. I'm a s writer, 3 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:12,039 one time reporter from the Boston Globe. I am now 4 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:15,800 author of the Brother of a Murder Victim to help 5 00:00:15,880 --> 00:00:18,600 other victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book 6 00:00:18,679 --> 00:00:21,440 on the unsolved Colonial Parkway murders and I'm the co 7 00:00:21,519 --> 00:00:24,760 administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 8 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:25,519 Kristin Dilly. 9 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,879 Speaker 2: My name is Kristin Dilly. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. 10 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:31,879 I'm Kristin Dilly, and I'm Bill Thomas as well. And 11 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:39,600 Astor was out with my partner Crime Master Thieves, the 12 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:42,679 Boston gangsters who pulled off the world's greatest art heist, 13 00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:45,960 and we are talking about the Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum 14 00:00:46,079 --> 00:00:48,200 art heist. Steve, thank you for joining us today. 15 00:00:49,119 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 3: Pleasure to be. 16 00:00:50,719 --> 00:00:55,439 Speaker 1: We were laughing because the two of you immediately started 17 00:00:55,439 --> 00:00:59,719 getting into a fascinating conversation and I was like time out. 18 00:00:59,719 --> 00:01:00,719 Speaker 2: We got hit the record. 19 00:01:00,799 --> 00:01:06,480 Speaker 3: But because I do tend to carry on regarding this case. 20 00:01:06,439 --> 00:01:09,159 Speaker 1: And Kristen is I think a new fan because I 21 00:01:09,239 --> 00:01:11,200 read the book several years ago. When you and I 22 00:01:11,239 --> 00:01:14,400 first met, Kristin had just bought it and read it 23 00:01:14,439 --> 00:01:16,000 and loved it and said, we got to get this 24 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:17,560 guy on my nover Murder. 25 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 3: I know he'll sit up like a little puppy I 26 00:01:22,799 --> 00:01:23,640 do on this case. 27 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: I love the fact that almost as soon as I 28 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:29,840 had said, oh, this is a fascinating book, Bill immediately 29 00:01:29,879 --> 00:01:31,120 was like, I know that guy. We're going to get 30 00:01:31,159 --> 00:01:33,959 him on the podcast, like immediately within seconds. 31 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,799 Speaker 3: Practically he coming from the North Shore and be coming 32 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:41,560 from Dochester, which is a neighborhood of Boston. We will 33 00:01:41,719 --> 00:01:42,280 ate real well. 34 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:44,840 Speaker 2: Steve, start by telling us a little bit about your 35 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:47,239 career as a journalist in Boston. I guess I should 36 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,519 say your storied career as a journalist in Boston, because 37 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,519 this is a heck of a resume you've got. 38 00:01:52,879 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 3: Yeah, I had been in a reporter for the Washington 39 00:01:56,079 --> 00:02:00,319 Globe for forty years and late in my career, and 40 00:02:00,359 --> 00:02:04,200 i'd been in Washington head of the Globes Political Bureau, 41 00:02:04,239 --> 00:02:07,560 which is a terrific one. Still in Washington. Came back 42 00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:12,520 to Boston around ninety two and got interested in this case, 43 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,080 which had broken two years before. But while I was 44 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,199 in Washington, And what it really was is just two 45 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:24,319 men had tricked their way into the Isabella Stuart Gardner Museum, 46 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,840 which at the time was fraying. It had recently got 47 00:02:28,879 --> 00:02:34,360 a new director, and she was committed, younger person, and 48 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,000 she was committed to improving it and getting it back 49 00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:42,520 into the limelight of Boston's cultural scene. And she succeeded, 50 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,360 except she had this weight on her that happened about 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,639 six months after she took over as director. She was 52 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:54,439 improving so many other places, but hadn't attended to the security. 53 00:02:55,120 --> 00:02:58,840 And the security at the time was they had put 54 00:02:58,879 --> 00:03:01,680 in a few improved bence as far as equipment, but 55 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:05,159 they hadn't really looked at the quality of their of 56 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,360 their guards or night watchmen. And as I learned, anyone 57 00:03:09,360 --> 00:03:13,039 who is in the museum business told me that the 58 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:16,879 most sensitive time, the most vulnerable time, is at night. 59 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:20,199 If someone is to pluck something off of the wall 60 00:03:20,319 --> 00:03:24,680 during the day, sooner or later a museum, a visitor, 61 00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:26,719 or a member of the security staff is going to 62 00:03:26,759 --> 00:03:29,439 realize that and is going to everything's going to lock down. 63 00:03:30,039 --> 00:03:33,319 But at night you're at the whim of As it 64 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:36,439 turned out, in nineteen ninety two men who had very 65 00:03:36,439 --> 00:03:40,400 little interest in being professional security that by the fact 66 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:43,400 both were in music. And the one man who had 67 00:03:43,599 --> 00:03:47,639 total responsibility was the man who was at the desk. 68 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,080 And at the time of around one o'clock in the 69 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:54,240 morning on March eighteenth, nineteen ninety, two men addressed as 70 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:58,319 police officers came to the side door employees entrance and 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:03,520 rang the bell. And the man behind the security desk, 72 00:04:03,960 --> 00:04:07,439 his interest in life was to a rock and roll bed. 73 00:04:07,439 --> 00:04:10,680 He had started two years before, and he loved the 74 00:04:10,759 --> 00:04:13,159 job because it allowed him to be stoned or drunk 75 00:04:13,479 --> 00:04:15,960 after his gig was over, to go over to the 76 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,040 museum and just take it easy. There's nothing going on. 77 00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,160 Nothing ever happened except this night when two men dressed 78 00:04:23,160 --> 00:04:26,800 in police uniforms are announcing themselves Boston Police and we're 79 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:31,839 here to investigate a disturbance and the night watchman. This 80 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:35,839 is in a few hours after our holy holiday of 81 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,240 Saint Patrick's Day, and on Saint Patrick's Day is a 82 00:04:39,240 --> 00:04:43,639 big holiday, and every police officer who works at Boston 83 00:04:43,720 --> 00:04:47,600 or State Police or even the colleges is in uniform 84 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,399 on duty, working overtime. And I think they chose that 85 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:56,279 time to hit the museum, because they knew that if 86 00:04:56,360 --> 00:04:59,920 any police officer was working the detail that night, they 87 00:05:00,079 --> 00:05:01,360 were going to be on over. They were going to 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,480 be on overtime, and they may not have been as 89 00:05:03,639 --> 00:05:05,920 alert and on their toes as they would have been 90 00:05:06,199 --> 00:05:09,000 another day, but be those may They say, we're here 91 00:05:09,040 --> 00:05:13,439 to investigate a disturbance. Now, the night watchmen behind the desk. 92 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:16,720 He knew there was no disturbance going on at the museum. 93 00:05:16,759 --> 00:05:19,199 He had done the first tour, which he had lasted 94 00:05:19,199 --> 00:05:21,959 about forty five minutes. He had walked through the three 95 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:26,360 floors of galleries, he had tested all the windows and 96 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:31,199 got his key locks all processed, and nothing was going on. 97 00:05:31,519 --> 00:05:35,079 So when the two men announcing themselves at the side 98 00:05:35,160 --> 00:05:38,439 doors say they're here investigated disturbance, he thought maybe some 99 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,439 kids had jumped over the back gate. And he opens 100 00:05:41,519 --> 00:05:46,040 up and so he makes two very stupid mistakes, and 101 00:05:46,120 --> 00:05:48,920 this is one of them his handbooks, and he's been 102 00:05:48,959 --> 00:05:52,439 told you never let anybody in. To his defense, I 103 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:54,839 had talked I talked to him for about ten years 104 00:05:54,959 --> 00:05:57,519 after I got on the story, and he told me 105 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,439 sometimes trustees would come in or the director would come 106 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:06,000 in after midnight and he would let her in. These 107 00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:09,560 are police officers, but his handbook says no one, not 108 00:06:09,639 --> 00:06:12,480 even police officers, are to be allowed in. If they're 109 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,680 ringing the doorbell, you call the police station and you 110 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,519 tell them there's police at the door, and they'll let 111 00:06:18,519 --> 00:06:21,240 them send a car, but do not let anybody in. 112 00:06:21,759 --> 00:06:26,120 But he makes this fatal arra, unfortunate error, and he 113 00:06:26,199 --> 00:06:28,720 rings them in and they come in and the first 114 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:30,519 thing they say to him is who else is here? 115 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,279 And he says, only one another night watchman. He's going 116 00:06:34,319 --> 00:06:37,160 to tour of the galleries. And they said call him down, 117 00:06:37,439 --> 00:06:40,319 and he does. He has a two way radio. Calls 118 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,199 him down. But before he comes down, they say he's 119 00:06:43,519 --> 00:06:46,480 sitting behind a desk. They say to him, you look 120 00:06:46,519 --> 00:06:49,560 familiar to us. Are you wanted for anything yourself? Do 121 00:06:49,639 --> 00:06:53,000 we have a Have you not shown up but failed 122 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:55,879 to show up to court for something? And he says no, 123 00:06:56,000 --> 00:06:58,920 I've got no one's looking for me, and they say, 124 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:02,759 stand away, come around that counter and come in front 125 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:04,240 of us so we can get a good look at you. 126 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,879 Rick says to them the second and he acknowledged me 127 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,079 when I talked to him. Because if he steps away 128 00:07:10,079 --> 00:07:13,399 from that behind that desk. There's only one way he 129 00:07:13,439 --> 00:07:17,240 can summon the outside world to the if these guys 130 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,839 are the robbers, and that's an alarm button right in 131 00:07:19,839 --> 00:07:22,879 front of him, right where his stomach is, inside the 132 00:07:23,079 --> 00:07:27,120 security desk. But he says, I knew what I was doing, 133 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:30,680 and I walked away and I went out front. And 134 00:07:30,759 --> 00:07:33,560 as he walks out front to show them who he is, 135 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,759 in fact, he gives him his license. There's his driver's license. 136 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,920 The second guard comes into the room. After the second 137 00:07:41,959 --> 00:07:44,759 guard comes into the room, they push Herrick up against 138 00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,800 the wall, frisk him and don't frisk him, put handcuffs 139 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:52,319 on him. And at that moment, Rick says, I knew 140 00:07:52,759 --> 00:07:55,480 even before they said to him this is a robbery. 141 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,319 Rick said, I knew that they were. And I said, 142 00:07:58,319 --> 00:08:00,639 why did you step away from the war one button? 143 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:04,199 The museum had one emergency button to the outside. Why 144 00:08:04,399 --> 00:08:06,000 and you knew you were doing that? Why would you 145 00:08:06,079 --> 00:08:09,000 do that? And he tapped his breast pocket and he says, 146 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:12,519 because I had a ticket for that night's performance in Hertford, 147 00:08:12,560 --> 00:08:18,199 Connecticut of The Grateful Dead. And Rick was a sort 148 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,800 of a very straightforward, but I think smarter than you 149 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:26,399 smarter than everybody else, had an attitude of a wise guy, 150 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:31,399 not a criminal, but just smarter than everybody else. And 151 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,399 Rick wanted to see Grateful Dead was his favorite group. 152 00:08:35,879 --> 00:08:38,639 He had a ticket and he was going to drive 153 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,919 an hour and a half to Hartford that night or 154 00:08:42,039 --> 00:08:46,279 later that night the next night. And he did, even 155 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:49,639 though in the interim they had pulled off the largest 156 00:08:50,039 --> 00:08:55,200 theft in world history. We're talking thirteen pieces. Some of 157 00:08:55,200 --> 00:09:00,919 the pieces are less than memorable. Of them, four of 158 00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:06,080 them two masterpieces by the by Rembrant, including his only 159 00:09:06,159 --> 00:09:12,039 seascape and a vermire. They're only thirty five vermires. He's 160 00:09:12,039 --> 00:09:16,480 said to be the most prolific great master Vermire, and 161 00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:20,879 in all that one vermire, called the Concert, is said 162 00:09:20,919 --> 00:09:24,159 to be worth more than three to four hundred million 163 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,399 million dollars. The Rembrandt is stunning because it's the only 164 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:32,720 seascape Rembrandt ever and if you look, you see it. 165 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:36,360 It can be easily googled to be seen. It's donning, 166 00:09:36,919 --> 00:09:42,120 it is it's Christ. It's a New Testament image Christ 167 00:09:42,159 --> 00:09:45,159 and the Storms of the Sea Galilee, and it shows 168 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,600 Christ in the in its skiff with all of his 169 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,960 disciples around him, I say the music. Rembrandt loved how 170 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:58,320 it came out so well. He painted himself the So 171 00:09:58,519 --> 00:10:01,759 it's a stunning painting. But then there are some pieces 172 00:10:01,799 --> 00:10:04,759 that no one They stole another piece I believed at 173 00:10:04,799 --> 00:10:07,200 the time people felt it was a Rembrandt too. It 174 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,440 was done by a disciple of Ussia, an understudy of Rembrandts. 175 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,080 But they stole a top of a flagpole. They could 176 00:10:15,120 --> 00:10:18,360 not get a They went to another room and they 177 00:10:18,879 --> 00:10:22,159 tried to get a banner out of its glass encasement, 178 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:27,399 and it was held on a Napoleonic banner Napoleon. This 179 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:34,679 banner was carried by Napoleon's forces into Russia, so truly 180 00:10:34,720 --> 00:10:38,679 a historic piece. They couldn't get it out of its 181 00:10:38,759 --> 00:10:41,960 they couldn't get it out of its encasement. So they 182 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:45,440 took the top of that banner, and that's called a finial, 183 00:10:45,879 --> 00:10:50,200 and it's a golden gilded eagle. And the museum has 184 00:10:50,399 --> 00:10:52,879 first had a million, then five million, now a ten 185 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:56,240 million dollar offered in the ensuing years, now thirty four 186 00:10:56,360 --> 00:11:00,399 years later. And understand, the men spent about anyone minutes 187 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,720 more than an hour, hour and twenty minutes inside the museum. 188 00:11:03,759 --> 00:11:06,480 They could have spent the entire night there. They tied 189 00:11:06,519 --> 00:11:09,320 the two night watchmen up, put them down in the basement, 190 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:14,159 left them there, and then ransacked, totally ransacked the museum. 191 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:17,960 They left that The room where they stole they did 192 00:11:18,000 --> 00:11:21,879 the most of their master's pieces from, was the Dutch 193 00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:26,440 Room on the second floor of the museum, and they 194 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:30,600 stole I think five or six, seven seven pieces out 195 00:11:30,639 --> 00:11:34,399 of that room. But it's donning. They left the room 196 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,000 in shambles, and that gave me an inkling as to 197 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,240 who did this. I could not believe, and we were 198 00:11:41,279 --> 00:11:45,559 still looking for collectors who would try to sell this 199 00:11:45,720 --> 00:11:49,519 to the highest bidder. No way, no. When I looked 200 00:11:49,519 --> 00:11:52,480 at the photographs of the Dutch room where the big 201 00:11:52,519 --> 00:11:57,080 pieces were stolen, every frame is broken, Every class in 202 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,799 that fronts the frames is smash and the two large 203 00:12:01,879 --> 00:12:05,879 Rembrandts were cut with box cutters out of their stretches. 204 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:09,720 You don't do that if you're planning to resell there. 205 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:13,960 So I quickly gave up this belief that there was 206 00:12:14,039 --> 00:12:18,240 a art collector who could not live without a rembrand 207 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,799 or Overmere and commissioned these goons to pull off this stuff. 208 00:12:23,519 --> 00:12:27,799 I just I never bought that, and so as a result, 209 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:32,159 I started my reporting and I got on the story 210 00:12:32,279 --> 00:12:36,919 from in ninety seven, and in two thousand and four 211 00:12:37,399 --> 00:12:40,600 I was able to convince the museum to allow me 212 00:12:40,799 --> 00:12:43,799 to see what they had come up with. The FBI 213 00:12:43,879 --> 00:12:48,759 took over the case immediately and worked diligently and although 214 00:12:48,879 --> 00:12:53,519 not very creatively on it, and they chased every lead, 215 00:12:54,159 --> 00:12:57,200 every phone call. There's a ten million dollar reward. In 216 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,440 the last decade, the US Attorneys session of US attorneys 217 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,559 who head the Boston office for the Justice Department to 218 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:07,360 US Attorney's office here in Boston, a succession of them, 219 00:13:07,360 --> 00:13:10,399 and said, we won't prosecute you. If you bring in 220 00:13:10,679 --> 00:13:14,200 the masterpieces. We won't prosecute you. We'll drive you to 221 00:13:14,279 --> 00:13:16,759 the museum and there's a ten million dollars reward waiting 222 00:13:16,799 --> 00:13:20,519 for you. By the time I was really into my reporting, 223 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:23,360 I retired from The Globe in two thousand and eight 224 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,960 and started my work on master thieves. I was convinced 225 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:30,440 that to find who did this, it was so long 226 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:34,200 later after the theft, and the FBI was not getting 227 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:38,480 good tips on the whereabouts of the material. So I said, 228 00:13:38,600 --> 00:13:41,600 there's another way of trying to solve this, and that's 229 00:13:41,919 --> 00:13:46,159 calling on Boston, in its generosity, in its sense of 230 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:49,000 a new Boston, to try to reach out to those 231 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:51,960 people who may know something, to say, help the FBI, 232 00:13:52,159 --> 00:13:56,240 help the museum get this material back. We survived the 233 00:13:56,320 --> 00:14:01,679 Marathon bombing in twenty thirteen, killed five p that event, 234 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,639 and I think more than a dozen amputees. Yet we 235 00:14:06,759 --> 00:14:11,600 came back from that, and that sense of resurgence, that 236 00:14:11,799 --> 00:14:16,240 sense making our shelves hole, should be applied to this case, 237 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,200 because no world class city allows these masterpieces to be 238 00:14:21,279 --> 00:14:25,159 missing for so long without outreaching to the public saying 239 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:28,840 these paintings belonged to the museum, They belonged to the public. 240 00:14:29,279 --> 00:14:32,039 Missus Gardner put them on the walls for us and 241 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,720 our grandchildren get them back. You don't know if your 242 00:14:36,759 --> 00:14:40,600 grand daughter could be the next Michelangelo bring them back 243 00:14:40,639 --> 00:14:45,080 and had let her, like all of us, enjoy these masterpieces. 244 00:14:45,399 --> 00:14:47,519 So I made it into a little bit, a little 245 00:14:47,519 --> 00:14:50,480 bit of a tale of good and evil in hopes 246 00:14:50,519 --> 00:14:53,159 of doing the right thing and getting the artwork back 247 00:14:53,200 --> 00:14:53,799 to Boston. 248 00:14:54,159 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 1: One of the things that was most striking to me, Steve, 249 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,559 when you and I met several years ago, was you 250 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,720 were kind enough to take me on a private tour 251 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:06,440 of the gardener I'd read about and seen photographs of 252 00:15:06,679 --> 00:15:11,080 the missing paintings and artwork, the paintings, drawings, the finial, 253 00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:14,399 but I was so shocked to actually walk into those 254 00:15:14,480 --> 00:15:18,000 rooms with you and the empty frames are still sitting 255 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:23,200 there on the wall. Is this part of missus Gardner's 256 00:15:24,159 --> 00:15:26,799 will that we have to leave the legacy? 257 00:15:26,879 --> 00:15:30,559 Speaker 3: Yeah? Her will. Her will required she passed in the 258 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:36,279 mid twenties, and her will required that the museum stay 259 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:40,600 as it were, that the galleries couldn't change, that it 260 00:15:40,679 --> 00:15:42,879 had to stay as it were at the time of 261 00:15:42,919 --> 00:15:47,240 her death. As a result, the museum doesn't change the 262 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:52,000 same notepads and it depends that are on her desk. 263 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:55,879 They are still there in the same place. It was determined. 264 00:15:56,120 --> 00:16:02,240 The will is probated every year they trustees activities are 265 00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:06,639 viewed and regarded or considered in light of what her 266 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:10,919 will said. So it was determined that even though the 267 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:16,919 paintings weren't there, that nothing could be on those center places, 268 00:16:17,399 --> 00:16:20,559 those places of centerpiece in the Dutch room, which is 269 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:24,519 on the second floor, and I a kin it when 270 00:16:24,559 --> 00:16:26,960 you walk into the room from its main entrance, as 271 00:16:26,960 --> 00:16:30,039 you walk up the steps from the first floor. You 272 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,399 walk right into the room and you see the two 273 00:16:33,559 --> 00:16:37,399 empty frames. One was the Storm of the Sea Galilee, 274 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,679 and within twenty feet is the empty frame of the Vermeire. 275 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:45,559 No indication that it was the Vermire. Maybe there's a 276 00:16:45,559 --> 00:16:49,799 little sign of little notepad there. And there are the masterpieces, 277 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:53,600 the master works in emptiness. I akin it to walking 278 00:16:53,639 --> 00:16:57,120 into her awake, being the first person to walk into 279 00:16:57,159 --> 00:17:00,159 a wake. When you watch something important to you and 280 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,960 important to the community, it's just it's stunning, how heavy 281 00:17:05,240 --> 00:17:09,079 the feeling here. You are in a place of great magistry, 282 00:17:09,799 --> 00:17:14,400 of great accomplishment. And she did it for us. That's 283 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:16,960 why she and her husband wanted to build a museum. 284 00:17:17,480 --> 00:17:22,079 She wanted Boston in America, which was becoming a world 285 00:17:22,119 --> 00:17:25,839 power in the late eight nineteenth century. She wanted us 286 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,559 to be able to be inspired by art, and she 287 00:17:29,759 --> 00:17:32,440 had been. She came from a both her she and 288 00:17:32,480 --> 00:17:36,599 her husband were Brahmins. They were well born people. They 289 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:40,279 knew art, and she during her life with Jack Gardner, 290 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:43,960 who was one of our wealthier entrepreneurs here in Massachusetts, 291 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,240 they traveled the world over to collect this art, and 292 00:17:47,319 --> 00:17:51,240 after he died twenty thirty years before she did. She 293 00:17:51,440 --> 00:17:56,359 hired Bernard Berenson, who was a famous collector or art historian, 294 00:17:56,559 --> 00:17:59,400 and he traveled the world over for her as she 295 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:02,920 put together plans and then built the museum, which opened 296 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:03,799 in nineteen oh three. 297 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:05,920 Speaker 2: She's a very cool lady. 298 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 3: Oh yes, I like to see hers. Mydonna and Julia 299 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:12,799 Child was a Brahman who held usself that way. 300 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,160 Speaker 2: In a new biography just came out on her. Because 301 00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:18,839 I had just read your book, I was like, I 302 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:20,079 want to learn more about this lady. 303 00:18:20,119 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 3: So I'm glad you do. Yeah, read that book. Read 304 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:27,240 that there's shovel biographies on her, but I think I 305 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:29,640 was told that this latest one is a terrific work. 306 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:33,720 Speaker 1: You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back 307 00:18:33,960 --> 00:18:46,359 after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at 308 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:51,160 mindover Murder. Before we get back to the podcast, just 309 00:18:51,200 --> 00:18:53,640 wanted to remind you that we have a go fundme 310 00:18:53,799 --> 00:18:57,480 effort going on right now. This campaign is designed to 311 00:18:57,519 --> 00:19:01,000 help us raise funds to help promote Lined Over Murder 312 00:19:01,319 --> 00:19:06,240 and specifically to push the Colonial Parkway murders investigation forward. 313 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:09,039 We'd love it if you could support us in any 314 00:19:09,039 --> 00:19:13,000 way that you can. Any donation from five dollars to 315 00:19:13,079 --> 00:19:16,039 whatever you can afford is very much appreciated and will 316 00:19:16,079 --> 00:19:18,960 be incredibly helpful. The link is in the show notes 317 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:22,759 and in our social media pages. As always, thanks for 318 00:19:22,839 --> 00:19:26,400 your support. Now back to mind over Murder. 319 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:31,599 Speaker 2: But I'm really curious about this idea that she wanted 320 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,880 the museum to remain. On the one hand, why you 321 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,440 would want your museum to stay the exact same way 322 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:38,799 as it was when you designed it, because I get that. 323 00:19:39,079 --> 00:19:41,839 But at the same time, she had to have thought 324 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,000 at some point or another that the museum's going to 325 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,519 need upgrades over time, especially if you're going to have 326 00:19:46,559 --> 00:19:48,839 lots of visitors to come in and see it. Things 327 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:51,839 are going to change. Why didn't she make provisions for 328 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,759 that in her will that I don't want the art 329 00:19:53,799 --> 00:19:56,880 to change, but you can upgrade the restrooms or the 330 00:19:56,920 --> 00:19:59,960 fire suppression system or oh, I don't know, the security system. 331 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I think that was presumed. Now 332 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,119 now I'm going to speculate on this. I don't know this. 333 00:20:06,359 --> 00:20:08,720 The museum had begun to let me call it Frey, 334 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:12,200 And the reason why was that the trustees who took 335 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:16,240 after her death. The trustees who took over the steering, 336 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:21,559 the operation, the guidance of the museum, they didn't really 337 00:20:21,720 --> 00:20:25,079 have the need to raise money. There wasn't a sense 338 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:27,920 that we have to buy the latest in order to 339 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:31,359 keep the museum modern. She did not want a modern museum. 340 00:20:31,559 --> 00:20:35,559 She had already purchased and was already displaying classics of 341 00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:39,559 all ages. And there's a and there. To give you 342 00:20:39,599 --> 00:20:42,599 an example, there is a large statue in front of 343 00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:44,839 the Boston Public Library, and it has the names of 344 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:50,000 eight artists of the ages Donatello Rembrandt. Six of those 345 00:20:50,039 --> 00:20:53,839 eight artists have their works on display at the Isabella 346 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:57,640 Store Gardens. She and her husband paid for this work 347 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:01,559 to be on display to Boston because she wanted us 348 00:21:01,680 --> 00:21:05,400 to experience it. She wanted she as she traveled the 349 00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,160 world over in the late nineteenth century, she got a 350 00:21:08,240 --> 00:21:15,440 transcendent belief that art indoors everything else passes art indoors, 351 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,119 and she wanted us to be inspired by art. I 352 00:21:19,279 --> 00:21:21,519 like to say that the one person who I know 353 00:21:22,119 --> 00:21:25,079 was proof of that is my father. My father came 354 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:29,480 to the came to Boston in the early nineteen twenties. 355 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:34,480 He was a refugee from the Armenian genocide. He was 356 00:21:34,559 --> 00:21:37,640 raised and went to high school in the twenties, and 357 00:21:37,759 --> 00:21:40,000 they started he could draw, and they sent him off 358 00:21:40,079 --> 00:21:44,319 to art school, and he became a very successful portrait 359 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:47,680 artist and was and raised his family on that and 360 00:21:47,839 --> 00:21:51,240 was pretty well loomed as a portrait artist. And after 361 00:21:51,319 --> 00:21:55,079 he told me, after I started my work on this case, 362 00:21:55,079 --> 00:21:58,759 he said to me, Stephen, I would leave school. He 363 00:21:58,799 --> 00:22:00,680 went to art school for two years, and I would 364 00:22:00,680 --> 00:22:04,400 walk over to the museum. It was free, that's what 365 00:22:04,559 --> 00:22:08,720 she mandated, free of charge, even for the earliest days. 366 00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:11,880 But by the time he was there, the students were 367 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:14,440 still free of charge. He said, I could go in 368 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:16,839 and look at the paint I could. It was my 369 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:21,240 own little workshop. You look so close at who the painting, 370 00:22:21,519 --> 00:22:24,400 who the painter was, study his work, and see their 371 00:22:24,519 --> 00:22:27,440 artwork so close. He said. It was just a terrificy. 372 00:22:27,839 --> 00:22:31,000 And that's what it was. But the trustees didn't have 373 00:22:31,079 --> 00:22:33,640 to raise money. When they didn't have to raise money, 374 00:22:33,960 --> 00:22:37,519 the museum began to fray, and the security director told 375 00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:40,880 me who was in charge the night of the theft. 376 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,200 He later said to me, they just were not doing 377 00:22:44,480 --> 00:22:49,559 enough to modernize the museumant. Not many were. Not many 378 00:22:49,640 --> 00:22:54,240 museums were, but the Garden Museum got caught in that omission. 379 00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:59,400 And after the theft at the Gardener, every museum in 380 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:03,599 the country put in reforms for their security system. Unfortunately 381 00:23:04,519 --> 00:23:06,119 as too later for the museum. 382 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 1: As I see it, it was a wake up call 383 00:23:08,759 --> 00:23:13,880 for museums around the country and even private collectors who 384 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:17,119 owned beautiful pieces of art that they needed to do 385 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,880 a lot more to protect themselves from this kind of theft. 386 00:23:21,079 --> 00:23:24,519 Speaker 3: The other grand theme that I came up with is 387 00:23:24,799 --> 00:23:27,559 I was dealing with a man in the mid nineteen eighties. 388 00:23:27,599 --> 00:23:31,400 There was a theft of Pressionists from a smaller museum 389 00:23:31,559 --> 00:23:34,880 in Paris. They solved it about eight years later, and 390 00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:38,519 I was in touch with the head of their artsquad 391 00:23:38,839 --> 00:23:41,279 and I said to him, his name is in the book. 392 00:23:41,599 --> 00:23:45,160 I said the detective, what are we missing here? How 393 00:23:45,200 --> 00:23:50,079 come you? And the theft was about ten years old 394 00:23:50,079 --> 00:23:53,240 that I said, you solved yours in eight years. We're 395 00:23:53,279 --> 00:23:56,640 at ten years unsolved. Now, how are you able to 396 00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,640 solve this and we're not able to solve ours? And 397 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,559 he's said, there's one big difference your people. Art here 398 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:08,519 in France is considered the public's position. You don't have that, 399 00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,680 you don't have people feeling that they took it from me. 400 00:24:13,079 --> 00:24:16,000 And he said, that's how we got ours. We got 401 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:18,480 tips from the public all the time. It never stopped. 402 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:21,799 But I don't think we the bad guys who know 403 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:27,440 something see that as their responsibility or their obligation to 404 00:24:28,079 --> 00:24:31,599 help in this stuff. It's the old world, and it's 405 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:33,839 difficult to me to convey this, but I'll say the 406 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,000 words Boston in nineteen ninety when this stuff took place, 407 00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,279 it still had major influence of organized crime. The snitches 408 00:24:42,319 --> 00:24:46,359 get stitches. That was the code of silence, that was 409 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:51,160 an operating credo in many neighborhoods of Boston. That's gone. 410 00:24:51,519 --> 00:24:56,160 That's no longer Boston. That is no Boston is playing 411 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:01,160 by the rules. There's no big organized crime hold controlling 412 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:05,240 of bedding or whatever. That's all gone. But I still 413 00:25:05,319 --> 00:25:08,319 think there are people who know things about where this 414 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:12,359 artwork was taken, if it wasn't destroyed. And let's I 415 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:16,720 don't know that somebody people still know of who knew what, 416 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:19,960 and they're still refusing to pick up the phone and 417 00:25:20,079 --> 00:25:22,960 give a tip, to give the information to the museum. 418 00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,000 Or the FBI because they feel that they will be 419 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:31,039 breaking the code the old World cup, give me a break. 420 00:25:31,400 --> 00:25:35,720 The code that prevails is that this is being denied 421 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,960 our citizens, our people, our grand children. In that sense, 422 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:44,359 that imperative needs to be stated and restated. I've even 423 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:48,319 reached out to the card O'Malley, who was a grand 424 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,400 great man. We've recovered from the clergy abuse scandal of 425 00:25:52,559 --> 00:25:56,079 the twenty years ago that The Boston Glow wrote about 426 00:25:56,079 --> 00:25:59,319 and Spotlight Team wrote about because of Cardinal O'Malley was 427 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,920 put in place. But he could get in front of 428 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,279 these empty frames which are so evocative, and say we 429 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,480 have to bring these paintings back to Boston. Each of 430 00:26:08,559 --> 00:26:10,680 us has an obligation to do what we can to 431 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,279 get them back. 432 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,119 Speaker 1: So are any of the people that would be in 433 00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,680 a position to know, all these years later, and we 434 00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:20,359 are talking about a lot of years of lapsing since 435 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:23,799 nineteen ninety, are any of them still alive and in 436 00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:28,359 a position to steer law enforcement to where these paintings 437 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:30,880 might be found, either some of them or all of them. 438 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:33,519 Speaker 3: Let me see if I can answer that I believe 439 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:38,359 they are. I believe, but it's not I know where 440 00:26:38,599 --> 00:26:40,839 I know where they hit them, where they hit some. 441 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:44,480 I think what they know is that my uncle, my 442 00:26:44,799 --> 00:26:48,279 late brother in law, or the guy who I used 443 00:26:48,279 --> 00:26:51,759 to run bets for he knew something about this. It's 444 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:55,400 those people who don't want to get involved. They still 445 00:26:55,400 --> 00:27:02,119 say it's Omerica. Don't say anything old world. And who 446 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:05,799 are you helping? You're helping the haves. We're have notts. 447 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,480 The criminal element is the have nots. Who are you helping? 448 00:27:09,599 --> 00:27:12,359 And I would sit in the few organized crime people 449 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,480 who whom I would sit with and talk with get 450 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:19,960 blue in the face. They don't go by the information 451 00:27:20,160 --> 00:27:22,920 that we do the haves do. How do we make 452 00:27:23,039 --> 00:27:26,160 up our mind on big decisions? We weigh, we talk 453 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,000 to experts, we read the paper, We find a lawyer 454 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,400 who may know something and in this field, and we 455 00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:36,759 consult with them. It's not how the bad guys did 456 00:27:36,799 --> 00:27:41,519 their work. They were all on rumor, on suspicion, on 457 00:27:41,599 --> 00:27:44,160 word of the wink in the art. That's how they 458 00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,640 did their business. And you know that, you know that 459 00:27:48,319 --> 00:27:51,920 with the theme of your podcast, you know how criminal 460 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:57,440 information among criminals is considered so valuable. Like when I 461 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:01,200 came up with this idea that had to be done 462 00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,960 for another reason than to fence the artwork. There had 463 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:08,359 to be another reason. And I went just went to 464 00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:11,400 the few sources I had, and I said, what's why 465 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:13,359 would you do this if you're going to treat the 466 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,480 artwork so bad? And I said, it wasn't done to fence. 467 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:19,039 It was done to get somebody out of jail. And 468 00:28:19,079 --> 00:28:22,559 that's where this idea, this coda of get out of 469 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:23,319 jail free. 470 00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,720 Speaker 1: Cot, this was going to be used as a bargaining 471 00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,319 chip the return of Summer, all the artwork in exchange 472 00:28:29,359 --> 00:28:31,720 for getting a key mobster out of jail. 473 00:28:32,039 --> 00:28:36,079 Speaker 3: And it's there was one guy here in Boston who 474 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,759 had been arrested for doing a theft up in Maine. 475 00:28:39,799 --> 00:28:44,359 He had stolen Wyath paintings, allegedly with Robert Donatti, the 476 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:47,839 main character in this case. And when he got caught, 477 00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,599 not Donati, but this pretty well known art thief. When 478 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:54,920 he got caught, he came up with the idea that 479 00:28:55,279 --> 00:28:57,319 the only way they'll give me a break is if 480 00:28:57,359 --> 00:29:01,559 I steal something else, and he at a gang with guns. 481 00:29:01,599 --> 00:29:03,440 They went and they stole a remprant out of the 482 00:29:03,559 --> 00:29:06,599 MFA in the early seventies, and he hid it underneath 483 00:29:06,599 --> 00:29:08,640 the bed of one of his pals. 484 00:29:08,680 --> 00:29:09,599 Speaker 2: It's insane. 485 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,640 Speaker 1: Two years sitting this valuable, incredibly valuable painting is sitting 486 00:29:15,759 --> 00:29:16,599 under the bed. 487 00:29:16,799 --> 00:29:19,359 Speaker 3: Under the bed, left leisure there for two years. Then 488 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:22,880 calls his lawyer and the remarkable thing is. The more 489 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:26,920 remarkable thing is, as he's being arraigned for the stealing 490 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:31,200 of the Wyeth paintings, some steak caught yellswim as he's 491 00:29:31,319 --> 00:29:33,599 being walked up the steps of the courthouse. His name 492 00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:36,119 is Miles Connor. First name, Miles. You're going to need 493 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,440 a Rembrant to get you out of this. Miles stole 494 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,279 guns his gang, They break into the MFA, they steal 495 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,000 a large Rembrandt off of the wall, and they hide 496 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,640 it for two years. And then Miles calls his a 497 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,160 lawyer and says, to the lawyer, tell the FEDS, if 498 00:29:56,160 --> 00:29:59,440 they give me a deal, I'll give them their Rembrandt back, 499 00:29:59,519 --> 00:30:02,119 but I need to get a deal on that other 500 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:06,880 case involving the stolen Wyath paintings. And his lawyer says, 501 00:30:07,119 --> 00:30:09,200 I don't think the FBI deals that way, but I'll 502 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,680 tell them, And the FBI says, listen, he can tell it. 503 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:14,559 Give us stuff Rembrandt back, he can tell it to 504 00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:16,599 the judge, and he tells it to that he does, 505 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,319 he gives him the Rembrant pack. No one knew what 506 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:21,359 the hell is Back in the seventies, no one knew 507 00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:23,079 what the hell happened. But all of a sudden, the 508 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,720 mfa's got the Rembrandt pack and Miles goes into court. 509 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:28,799 He tells the judge what he had done, and the 510 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:30,839 judge says, that's all well and good Miles, but I'm 511 00:30:30,839 --> 00:30:33,799 giving you eight years for the main theft, in another 512 00:30:33,839 --> 00:30:36,559 eight years for the for the for the MFA, for 513 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:39,519 the museum fine arce theft of the Rembrandt. But he 514 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,480 allows him to serve the one eight year sentence co 515 00:30:42,559 --> 00:30:46,920 terminously current and out of that case, Miles has to 516 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,519 serve eight years. Every bad guy in Boston that I 517 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:54,079 went to and says, hey, to get out of jail free, cut, 518 00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:56,519 I said, he didn't get out of jail free yet 519 00:30:56,559 --> 00:31:00,240 to serve eight year. Don't you read the papers? Now 520 00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,039 you're steal something this big it to get out of 521 00:31:02,079 --> 00:31:05,119 jail free. But I followed the bouncing ball on that 522 00:31:05,559 --> 00:31:08,599 motto get out of jail free card, and the next 523 00:31:08,599 --> 00:31:11,440 thing I know. I'm being called by a lawyer who 524 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,640 says his client wants to talk to me. Because when 525 00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,559 the client was in jail on a fifteen year sentence, 526 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:20,519 his underling had come to him and said, we're going 527 00:31:20,599 --> 00:31:23,359 to steal something so valuable that the Feds will have 528 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:25,799 to leave you a get you out of jail. And 529 00:31:25,839 --> 00:31:27,799 when the guy said to him, don't involve me, he 530 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,640 knew this Donati was not the smartest, not the brightest 531 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,480 ball in the house. He said to him, Bob, do 532 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,960 not involve me in any of your crazy schemes. Donati 533 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:41,200 had already done the theft, but he had these paintings 534 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,279 in his house and he didn't know what to do 535 00:31:43,319 --> 00:31:45,559 with them. Not knowing what to do with them, the 536 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,599 other bad guys hear about him having this artwork, and 537 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,680 they start to follow him around and they start to 538 00:31:52,079 --> 00:31:55,119 threaten him, and when he doesn't give up the paintings, 539 00:31:55,359 --> 00:32:00,480 he suffers a very brutal death. He was almost beheaded. Rude, 540 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:04,119 and these guys did tough guys, and they played for keeps. 541 00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:06,839 And when Donadi, who was a member of the ball, 542 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:12,720 when he wouldn't give up these paintings, he suffered a terrible, tragic, terrible. 543 00:32:13,599 --> 00:32:15,640 His sister said to me, they could have killed him 544 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,880 with just a bullet. I knew he was in a 545 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,759 criminal world. Why would they have to be so brutal 546 00:32:20,799 --> 00:32:25,519 to him? That's why I think that this artwork, these 547 00:32:25,519 --> 00:32:28,359 masterpieces that he stole, were in his house for a 548 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,039 period of time, and they became almost targets on him. 549 00:32:32,319 --> 00:32:35,079 A year and half after the theft, he was brutally assassinated. 550 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: Join us next time on Mind Over Murder as we 551 00:32:39,079 --> 00:32:43,839 continue our fascinating conversation with Steve Kirchen, longtime reporter for 552 00:32:43,880 --> 00:32:47,599 The Boston Globe and author of Master Thieves. 553 00:32:49,359 --> 00:32:52,480 Speaker 2: The book is Master Thieves, the Boston Gangsters who pulled 554 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:55,559 off the world's greatest art heist, and the documentary is 555 00:32:55,720 --> 00:32:59,720 This is a Robbery, available on Netflix. Stephen, thank you 556 00:32:59,759 --> 00:33:01,799 some thanuch for joining us today. This was a real pleasure. 557 00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 3: Bill Kristin, thank you very much for having me, great 558 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:05,319 to chat. 559 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: That is going to do it for this episode of 560 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,920 Mind Ever Murder. Thank you so much for listening. We'll 561 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:10,720 see you next time. 562 00:33:20,319 --> 00:33:23,839 Speaker 4: Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and 563 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:25,359 Another Dog Productions. 564 00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 565 00:33:29,599 --> 00:33:32,000 Speaker 4: Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. 566 00:33:32,680 --> 00:33:34,720 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. 567 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 4: Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with crawl Space Media. 568 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,119 Speaker 1: You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 569 00:33:43,279 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 4: You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway 570 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:47,839 Murders on Facebook. 571 00:33:47,559 --> 00:33:50,599 Speaker 1: And finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at 572 00:33:50,599 --> 00:33:52,240 Bill Thomas five six. 573 00:33:52,720 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 4: Thank you for listening to mind Over murderou