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Sign up now at 24 00:00:59.200 --> 00:01:01.200 chumbasino dot com. 25 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:04.159 Don'll protus the very where by lost the terms conditions eighteen. 26 00:01:03.960 --> 00:01:06.239 Plus love Hotadian. 27 00:01:15.560 --> 00:01:19.000 You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking 28 00:01:19.079 --> 00:01:22.120 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 29 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:29.480 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every 30 00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:33.200 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 31 00:01:33.280 --> 00:01:37.760 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 32 00:01:38.200 --> 00:01:40.680 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 33 00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.359 Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 34 00:01:54.359 --> 00:01:57.680 program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime 35 00:01:57.799 --> 00:02:01.400 History and the authors that have written about them. This 36 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:06.239 is the remarkable story of Frank Matthews, a charismatic drug 37 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:11.319 kingping from the late nineteen sixties and seventies who organized 38 00:02:11.319 --> 00:02:14.639 a huge criminal enterprise before jumping bill in nineteen seventy 39 00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:17.840 three with fifteen to twenty million and a beautiful woman 40 00:02:19.560 --> 00:02:23.479 nicknamed Black Caesar. Matthews has never been seen again in 41 00:02:23.520 --> 00:02:26.599 what has become one of organized crime's most intriguing mysteries. 42 00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:31.479 Lewis Rice spent twenty six years as a special agent 43 00:02:31.479 --> 00:02:35.560 with DEA nineteen seventy four to two thousand and one. 44 00:02:35.639 --> 00:02:39.000 During that time, he conducted hundreds of major international narcotic 45 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:44.759 investigations and was assigned to New York, Kingston, Jamaica, Miami, Washington, 46 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:48.039 d C, Philadelphia, and Detroit. He retired as a Special 47 00:02:48.080 --> 00:02:53.159 Agent in Charge in New York Division, the largest operational 48 00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:56.919 office in the DEA. The book that we're featuring this 49 00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:00.439 evening is Black Caesar, The Rise and disappear Sperience of 50 00:03:00.479 --> 00:03:05.759 Frank Matthews Kingpin, with my special guest, journalist and author, 51 00:03:05.840 --> 00:03:11.240 Ron Chepzik, and also Lewis Rice. Welcome to the program, 52 00:03:11.719 --> 00:03:14.879 Lewis Rice, and thank you for Jesus interview. 53 00:03:15.400 --> 00:03:16.560 Good to be with you to night. 54 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:20.479 Thank you very much, and for our audience. Ron seems 55 00:03:20.520 --> 00:03:23.360 to have not called in as of yet, but I'm 56 00:03:23.360 --> 00:03:28.599 sure he will, and so we'll just proceed with this 57 00:03:28.680 --> 00:03:32.120 interview and then your perspective personally, and well here's Ron 58 00:03:32.159 --> 00:03:39.159 right now, so maybe we'll just get him in the conversation. Hello, 59 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:41.960 good evening, Ron, How are you good evening? 60 00:03:42.039 --> 00:03:43.159 Fine? How are you doing? Dan? 61 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:47.240 Very good? Thank you. We just introduced the synopsis of 62 00:03:47.240 --> 00:03:51.319 the book and did a brief introduction for Lewis Rice. 63 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:54.719 You're our co guest and so welcome to the program. 64 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.319 Ron Chepsick, Welcome, back to the program. 65 00:03:58.280 --> 00:04:01.360 I appreciate being back on the show. A good guests 66 00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:02.520 as well with lou Rice. 67 00:04:03.520 --> 00:04:06.479 Yes, and a very very intriguing story. So let's get 68 00:04:06.599 --> 00:04:12.199 right to this. Then, tell us a little bit about 69 00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:14.919 as much as you could. I know there's much more 70 00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:18.879 information of Frank Matthews and his later criminal life, but 71 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:23.759 take us back to where it all started and tell 72 00:04:23.879 --> 00:04:27.399 us where Frank Matthews is originally from, who he was raised. 73 00:04:27.439 --> 00:04:30.680 Tell us a little bit about that. Ron about Frank 74 00:04:30.720 --> 00:04:34.680 Matthews's background. 75 00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:41.160 Well, he's a very intriguing character. He's Southern born and bred. 76 00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:44.800 He was born in Durham, North Carolina. His mother died 77 00:04:44.839 --> 00:04:46.839 when he was young and he was raised by his 78 00:04:46.920 --> 00:04:53.240 aunt Marcella. And the stories about him as a kid 79 00:04:53.519 --> 00:04:56.000 growing up in Durham, you know, this was during racial 80 00:04:56.279 --> 00:04:58.680 segregation times, you know, in the fifties and the sixties 81 00:04:59.399 --> 00:05:03.959 were thing. He was a natural born leader, uh, fearless. 82 00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:07.680 Everybody seemed to uh to like him. He was entrepreneurial 83 00:05:07.800 --> 00:05:11.000 and all those qualities uh did him well later when 84 00:05:11.000 --> 00:05:14.680 he decided to become a gangster. But he he was 85 00:05:14.720 --> 00:05:20.079 pretty ambitious and uh, like a lot of young blacks 86 00:05:20.079 --> 00:05:24.399 at that time UH that went that went north. He 87 00:05:24.480 --> 00:05:26.439 decided that he wasn't gonna do the straight route. He 88 00:05:26.480 --> 00:05:30.120 was going to do the gangster route, and UH he 89 00:05:30.160 --> 00:05:35.839 went to Philadelphia and ended up in the numbers business, UH, 90 00:05:36.360 --> 00:05:39.360 in the black community, and he stayed everybody year and 91 00:05:39.639 --> 00:05:45.680 was very kind of hazy about why he left uh Philadelphia. 92 00:05:45.720 --> 00:05:47.639 But anyways, he ended up in New York and of 93 00:05:47.680 --> 00:05:51.079 course if you wanted to make a mark in the 94 00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:52.800 in the criminal world, that was the place to go to. 95 00:05:52.879 --> 00:05:55.279 New York City, you know, it was the hub of 96 00:05:55.279 --> 00:05:58.560 of everything gangster. So he ended up again in the 97 00:05:58.639 --> 00:06:00.600 numbers for a while, and he wanted to break into 98 00:06:00.639 --> 00:06:04.399 the uh into the drug trade, and at that time 99 00:06:04.439 --> 00:06:08.800 it was controlled by the Italians through what is called 100 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:11.120 was called the French connection. Was called the French connection 101 00:06:11.199 --> 00:06:15.360 because the laboratories were were in France, in Marseilles, and 102 00:06:15.480 --> 00:06:19.040 but it was run essentially by the Italian mafia. And 103 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:21.439 at that time, this was in the sixties when he came. 104 00:06:21.480 --> 00:06:25.040 He came, uh probably around sixty three or sixty four 105 00:06:25.360 --> 00:06:28.439 UH to New York City. And at that time, if 106 00:06:28.480 --> 00:06:32.959 you were black and you were and you wanted to uh, 107 00:06:33.000 --> 00:06:34.879 you know, to work in the drug trade. You eventually 108 00:06:35.000 --> 00:06:39.160 essentially were subservient to the Italians the way to Italians. 109 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:43.000 And uh, he did get some some financing. He wanted 110 00:06:43.040 --> 00:06:45.720 to break in, but they wouldn't let him in. They 111 00:06:45.720 --> 00:06:48.600 wouldn't you know, which which was in most cases, it 112 00:06:48.600 --> 00:06:50.759 would have closed the door to him. But there was 113 00:06:50.800 --> 00:06:57.360 another gangster named Rolando Gonzales, a Cuban who had great 114 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.879 connections in Venezuela, and he had to jump bail and 115 00:07:00.959 --> 00:07:04.839 he fled the country and he kept contact with with Frank, 116 00:07:04.959 --> 00:07:07.839 and that's how Frank got started. He started through a 117 00:07:07.879 --> 00:07:11.680 connection through his connection in in Venezuela and in heroin, 118 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:14.319 and it was the perfect storm. I mean, this is 119 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:16.800 when when when heroin was becoming really big, you got 120 00:07:17.160 --> 00:07:20.319 Vietnam veterans coming back, twelve percent of them we're addicted 121 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:25.279 to heroin. Uh. In Vietnam, you had poverty and and 122 00:07:25.680 --> 00:07:30.720 drugs were widely used. You had the counterculture and uh, 123 00:07:30.759 --> 00:07:34.199 you know, the qualification of drugs. And so he entered 124 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:38.199 the drug trade at at a very opportune time. But 125 00:07:38.680 --> 00:07:41.199 nobody really knew any think about him. It was really 126 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:44.519 strange because he was rapidly becoming you know, one of 127 00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:48.759 the biggest drug dealers in in the country and UH 128 00:07:49.360 --> 00:07:53.160 and the law enforcement didn't really didn't really have anything 129 00:07:53.199 --> 00:07:55.800 on him, and it was by a stroke of luck 130 00:07:55.839 --> 00:08:01.000 that they did uncover, you know, Frank matt Use as 131 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:05.160 a as an emerging drug dealer. So that sets him up, 132 00:08:05.199 --> 00:08:09.720 you know, when he is about to be discovered by 133 00:08:09.759 --> 00:08:13.560 the UH, uh DA and UH and the NYPD and 134 00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:16.240 the Drug Task Force they set up to investigate drug 135 00:08:16.279 --> 00:08:19.519 trafficking in UH in New York City. 136 00:08:20.120 --> 00:08:22.000 The thing I'd like to talk about that we just 137 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.399 kind of skipped over a little bit, because you do 138 00:08:24.519 --> 00:08:28.879 outline a little bit about Durham, North Court, North Carolina basically, 139 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.360 and and the part of the reason why, or the 140 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:37.360 thing that shaped Frank Matthews is that this Durham is 141 00:08:36.960 --> 00:08:42.000 a is an unusual community, a very very successful black community. 142 00:08:42.080 --> 00:08:45.000 And and as you point out, there's many people from 143 00:08:45.360 --> 00:08:48.440 a certain high school that went on to college. So 144 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:50.799 it's a yeah, right, sort of an example of a 145 00:08:50.919 --> 00:08:55.600 very very affluent, uh black community at a time when 146 00:08:55.799 --> 00:08:59.399 there weren't so many affluent black communities that were majority 147 00:08:59.399 --> 00:09:01.919 of the business were blackness, and so it was it 148 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.159 was something that anybody that lived in that community sort 149 00:09:05.159 --> 00:09:10.919 of that rise for success or that that the ability 150 00:09:10.960 --> 00:09:15.679 to achieve some modicum of success seemed to be possible 151 00:09:15.919 --> 00:09:16.440 in Durham. 152 00:09:16.519 --> 00:09:19.799 So right, yeah, he had plenty of examples of success 153 00:09:19.840 --> 00:09:20.360 around him. 154 00:09:20.879 --> 00:09:21.080 Uh. 155 00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:22.960 You know, it was called the Harlem of the South 156 00:09:23.200 --> 00:09:27.159 Durham and they had what they called the Black Wall Street, 157 00:09:27.240 --> 00:09:29.639 you know, with very successful bankers, a lot of money. 158 00:09:30.120 --> 00:09:33.000 Uh you know, it's a segregated community, but BLACKSI okay, 159 00:09:33.000 --> 00:09:36.679 and Durham actually a lot of them. And so so 160 00:09:36.759 --> 00:09:39.080 you know, he grew up in this entrepreneurial environment and 161 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:44.840 uh he saw you know a lot of uh blacks 162 00:09:45.240 --> 00:09:50.960 becoming successful. So I think that they had impact on him. 163 00:09:51.039 --> 00:09:55.679 Now, lewis uh you we have been involved with the 164 00:09:55.799 --> 00:10:00.879 Drug Enforcement Agency, the DEA. Obviously you might not have 165 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:02.720 been around right at the very beginning of this, but 166 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:09.519 based on your research of the DEA itself, like Rona 167 00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:15.639 said that Frank wasn't really on authorities radar all the 168 00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.759 time as prominent as maybe he obviously. 169 00:10:18.360 --> 00:10:18.960 He should have been. 170 00:10:19.519 --> 00:10:22.600 But at the time, based on your research of the DEA, 171 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:27.519 who were the main players in New York that the 172 00:10:27.639 --> 00:10:32.240 DEA felt were the important drug dealers? Heroin dealers at 173 00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:34.240 that time, and not Frank Matthews. 174 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:38.679 So Dan, I think it's important always to set the context. 175 00:10:39.799 --> 00:10:43.360 DEA was formed just a little over forty years ago, 176 00:10:43.480 --> 00:10:45.440 probably forty years ago, in a couple of weeks in 177 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:49.799 July of nineteen seventy three, by then President Richard Nixon, 178 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:53.799 and he formed the Drug Enforcement Administration because the country 179 00:10:54.159 --> 00:10:58.360 had a major problem with heroin. You had soldiers, as 180 00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:01.279 Ron mentioned, coming back from the Vietnam War, addicted to 181 00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:06.000 opium poppies. We had large numbers of heroin addicts in 182 00:11:06.120 --> 00:11:12.399 New York City, and addicts commit a lot of petty crimes, carjackings, robberies. 183 00:11:13.360 --> 00:11:16.679 The media will write about these events, they lead these 184 00:11:16.679 --> 00:11:20.559 six o'clock news and daily papers, and the politicians say, 185 00:11:20.600 --> 00:11:23.639 we have to do something about it. The law enforcement 186 00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:27.200 system was not as strong and sophisticated back in the seventies. 187 00:11:27.200 --> 00:11:29.759 You had a lot of corruption in New York City. 188 00:11:29.840 --> 00:11:34.320 You had the Cerproco issues, you had the Knapp Commission, 189 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:37.279 and President Nixon said, I'm going to form a special 190 00:11:37.320 --> 00:11:40.600 agency and named it the Drug Enforcement Administration, which was 191 00:11:40.639 --> 00:11:45.360 a combination of various federal investigative agencies and intelligence agencies. 192 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:50.120 With the sole purpose to go after major narcotic dealers. 193 00:11:51.080 --> 00:11:54.120 At the time that DEA was formed in seventy three, 194 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.879 Matthews was already a fugitive, having been identified as a major, 195 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:05.320 significant dealer heroin and cocaine, the leader of an organization 196 00:12:05.519 --> 00:12:09.799 that was distributing, you know, large amounts of drugs throughout 197 00:12:09.799 --> 00:12:12.960 the Eastern Seaboard. I think at one point we tracked 198 00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:20.039 him in the distribution throughout twenty one states and you know, 199 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.519 he was arrested. These guys were colorful, not only Matthews, 200 00:12:23.519 --> 00:12:25.639 but you had guys in the seventies, a lot of 201 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:30.919 African American dealers like Frank Lucas, Nikki Bonnes, Robert Stephanie, 202 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:40.279 Zach Robinson. Each one was colorful, had a crew, threw 203 00:12:40.320 --> 00:12:44.320 around a lot of money, attended only sporting events. They 204 00:12:44.519 --> 00:12:47.159 liked to be seen in public, and the medialy write 205 00:12:47.200 --> 00:12:50.720 about them. So he kind of made it somewhat easier 206 00:12:50.759 --> 00:12:53.120 for law enforcement to, you know, zero in on these 207 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.720 guys and try to find out how they were making 208 00:12:55.759 --> 00:12:59.200 their money. And so Matthews of course came to the 209 00:12:59.240 --> 00:13:03.720 attention of especially a very young agency to try to 210 00:13:03.759 --> 00:13:10.240 show that they can develop the major cases, arrest the 211 00:13:10.279 --> 00:13:13.320 major drug dealers and bring some calm to the streets 212 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:17.840 of the city throughout the country, and they went after Matthews. Unfortunately, 213 00:13:18.039 --> 00:13:20.879 forty years later he still has not been caught, but 214 00:13:21.000 --> 00:13:23.360 it was not because of a lack of effort. 215 00:13:24.840 --> 00:13:30.519 So outline the plan to what was the plan to 216 00:13:30.559 --> 00:13:34.279 try to infiltrate this gang, and what was the methodology 217 00:13:34.279 --> 00:13:36.679 that you tried to employ here to try to bring 218 00:13:36.720 --> 00:13:40.080 down this guy. What was some of the techniques. 219 00:13:40.559 --> 00:13:43.440 Well, as I said when I joined in seventy three, 220 00:13:43.519 --> 00:13:47.399 Matthews was joined in seventy four. Rather Matthews was already 221 00:13:47.399 --> 00:13:51.639 a fugitive, but it was normal investigative techniques. I mean, 222 00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.360 to the extent that you can. You try to insert 223 00:13:54.440 --> 00:13:58.200 an undercover agent so you have firsthand knowledge of the 224 00:13:58.279 --> 00:14:01.399 planning of the organization, who's in the leadership position, how 225 00:14:01.399 --> 00:14:04.039 they acquire the narcotics, and then how they move their 226 00:14:04.039 --> 00:14:07.639 money and any properties they may be purchasing around the country. 227 00:14:08.039 --> 00:14:10.879 If you cannot get an undercover agent in there, because 228 00:14:10.919 --> 00:14:14.679 sometimes these organizations are extremely insular and they're not open 229 00:14:14.759 --> 00:14:19.480 to new faces, you know, you would have arrested maybe 230 00:14:19.679 --> 00:14:23.799 someone in the organization and that person says, hey, I'll 231 00:14:23.799 --> 00:14:27.200 give you the information to maybe reduce my federal sentence 232 00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.320 and take you inside, or I'll be your eyes and 233 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:32.879 ears on the inside and let you know what's going on. 234 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.679 And of course behind the scenes, you know, we would 235 00:14:35.679 --> 00:14:38.559 try to corroborate what they're saying and telling us to 236 00:14:38.600 --> 00:14:41.600 make sure that we have a strong prosecutal case. And 237 00:14:42.080 --> 00:14:45.399 usually again, since this is the Drug Enforcement Administrations and 238 00:14:45.480 --> 00:14:49.039 these cases going to be prosecuted in federal court, and 239 00:14:49.080 --> 00:14:53.399 you're working throughout the investigation, which may last for six 240 00:14:53.440 --> 00:14:56.519 months to well over a year before you actually arrest somebody, 241 00:14:57.000 --> 00:15:00.159 you're working closely with a federal prosecutor, and so you're 242 00:15:00.200 --> 00:15:02.919 going to charge these people at the highest level of 243 00:15:02.960 --> 00:15:07.960 the federal trafficking charges so they can, you know, will 244 00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:12.720 upon conviction, serve the maximum sentence, and that will kind 245 00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:16.200 of encourage them to cooperate. Realizing that the only thing 246 00:15:16.399 --> 00:15:21.679 a lawyer can do for you is basically drain you 247 00:15:21.840 --> 00:15:24.559 drive by charging your lawyer fees. But the case is 248 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:27.759 so tight because we had the advantage of working six 249 00:15:27.799 --> 00:15:30.120 months to a year before we actually put handcuffs on you, 250 00:15:30.159 --> 00:15:33.039 that there is no wiggable The only way out of 251 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.759 going to prison for a long period of time is 252 00:15:35.799 --> 00:15:40.159 to cooperate, and slowly but surely people start to realize that. Then, 253 00:15:40.320 --> 00:15:43.000 you know, they try to reduce their liability by joining 254 00:15:43.080 --> 00:15:48.080 the team, either cooperating as a witness for historical informational 255 00:15:48.159 --> 00:15:53.039 conspiracy cases or actually becoming a witness and introducing other 256 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:54.440 people into the organization. 257 00:15:56.840 --> 00:16:01.039 Now, Ron, we got to go backwards where I was 258 00:16:01.039 --> 00:16:03.679 gonna Well, I want to go back and explain how 259 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:06.879 we just talked about how they did some research or 260 00:16:06.919 --> 00:16:10.200 they did the operation was six months in the making, 261 00:16:10.600 --> 00:16:13.440 but you talk about it being a courier for the 262 00:16:13.600 --> 00:16:16.679 for this French connection that he has directly in Venezuela 263 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:20.279 that ends up leading to the downfall of all these guys. 264 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:23.919 So tell us about the actual indictment and how it 265 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:27.399 came that Matthews was finally even though it looked like 266 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.440 he couldn't be caught, how he finally was indicted. 267 00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:33.320 Well, they built they built a case, like Louis saying, 268 00:16:33.360 --> 00:16:35.600 you know, gradually, and I was gonna add too that 269 00:16:35.679 --> 00:16:38.799 they used two very important techniques as well. Uh they 270 00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.080 got cort ordered wire taps you know, to uh to 271 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:46.279 to uh uh to listen in on conversations with with 272 00:16:46.399 --> 00:16:49.279 Matthews and some of his associates, and they also did 273 00:16:49.600 --> 00:16:53.559 old fashion and surveillance too. And what's really interesting about 274 00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:55.919 Matthews is that he seemed to know that this was 275 00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:59.759 going on, but he didn't seem to seem to care. 276 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:04.920 But slowly they put together a case. And at that time, 277 00:17:05.039 --> 00:17:09.000 in nineteen seventy they passed the Rico statue where you 278 00:17:09.000 --> 00:17:11.960 can prove conspiracy. You know, a person didn't have to 279 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:14.000 handle drugs, you just have to be part of a 280 00:17:14.000 --> 00:17:17.440 conspiracy that dealt with drugs in an organization, and so 281 00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.079 it was a very effective tool. It was a new tool. 282 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:25.759 But they build a conspiracy case against Matthews in about 283 00:17:25.759 --> 00:17:32.440 eighteen others in his organization, and he didn't stick around 284 00:17:32.599 --> 00:17:36.599 for the indictment. He was gone July second, nineteen seventy three, 285 00:17:36.640 --> 00:17:39.519 and it wasn't until next year that the others in 286 00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:41.799 his organization were prosecuted. 287 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:45.599 Now, how is it that they'd let somebody like him go? 288 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.480 They obviously wanted to post a big bail with him. 289 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.920 And what was the initial bail that was demanded from him? 290 00:17:53.039 --> 00:17:57.319 And what did he eventually negotiate that down to? And 291 00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:00.519 then how on earth? And why explain because it's a 292 00:18:00.519 --> 00:18:03.880 great story on why he was going to court. He 293 00:18:04.400 --> 00:18:06.119 didn't have no reason to think that he was going 294 00:18:06.200 --> 00:18:10.759 to do life. He thought he was confident in this 295 00:18:10.839 --> 00:18:13.640 court case. But what happened? So take us back how 296 00:18:13.640 --> 00:18:15.599 he even got the bail in the first place, What 297 00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:18.680 was the bail, and then how it was that he 298 00:18:18.920 --> 00:18:19.599 decided to. 299 00:18:21.240 --> 00:18:26.400 Move. Well, the law enforcesmen decided to They're worried that 300 00:18:26.440 --> 00:18:31.000 he might he might skip town because they're getting word 301 00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.960 that he knew that they're on to them. So he 302 00:18:34.000 --> 00:18:38.400 went to Las Vegas with a girlfriend named show Denis 303 00:18:38.759 --> 00:18:42.880 Brown and was on his way to the Super Bowl 304 00:18:43.519 --> 00:18:47.400 that was played between Washington Redskins and Miami Miami Dolphins 305 00:18:47.519 --> 00:18:51.000 in nineteen seventy three Super Bowl, and he was arrested 306 00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:54.640 at McCarron Airport in Las Vegas. And when he went 307 00:18:54.640 --> 00:18:59.200 before the judge, it was an astounding veil. It was 308 00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:02.240 like five million dollars bail. It was the biggest bail 309 00:19:02.319 --> 00:19:05.799 in history, and it was, you know, just incredibly. They 310 00:19:05.839 --> 00:19:08.200 really late. They made a good case for why the 311 00:19:08.200 --> 00:19:11.079 bill should be high, but even the uh the prosecutors 312 00:19:11.119 --> 00:19:13.559 that came down from New York were shocked by the thing. 313 00:19:13.880 --> 00:19:17.440 But by the time he left went down to two 314 00:19:17.519 --> 00:19:22.240 point five five million, and he was extradited back to 315 00:19:22.559 --> 00:19:26.359 New York City. And when a couple of months later, 316 00:19:26.359 --> 00:19:29.880 when when bail was set, uh, he went before the 317 00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.319 judge and they argued for a very strong, very tough 318 00:19:34.799 --> 00:19:38.160 bail sentence on him because they were afraid that he 319 00:19:38.240 --> 00:19:42.839 was going to jump jump bail once it was set, 320 00:19:42.880 --> 00:19:47.440 because there was a belief that he was putting away money. Uh, 321 00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:50.480 you know, every month he was putting away money, and 322 00:19:50.519 --> 00:19:55.559 they the DA suspected that that he was getting a 323 00:19:55.599 --> 00:19:58.160 nest egg that he would use if if he had 324 00:19:58.200 --> 00:20:00.400 to flee down. So it came he went down to 325 00:20:00.480 --> 00:20:03.519 three hundred and twenty five thousand, which was you know, 326 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:06.880 considered outrageous by the prosecutor because they thought it was 327 00:20:06.960 --> 00:20:12.039 too far, too low. And of course he was easily 328 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:17.079 able to raise that money. And and like he hung 329 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:20.759 around and in July second, a couple months later, he 330 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:21.839 jumped in. 331 00:20:23.519 --> 00:20:26.680 Now, but tell us why he did that, because that's 332 00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.240 a very good point, because I think in hindsight you 333 00:20:30.240 --> 00:20:31.119 could always. 334 00:20:30.880 --> 00:20:34.160 Say obviously that was you know, not the right decision, 335 00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:39.400 because he fled. But you know, bail is basically to 336 00:20:39.559 --> 00:20:42.440 ensure somebody's going to go to court and come back 337 00:20:42.440 --> 00:20:44.640 to court and look at roots in the community. You know, 338 00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.200 does he have family ties, is he married, does he 339 00:20:47.279 --> 00:20:50.519 have kids? What's a likelihood you know that we think 340 00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:55.200 that he will return, even though the offense may be 341 00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:59.640 very serious. You know, most defendants do show up a 342 00:20:59.720 --> 00:21:03.480 most defendants do upon conviction, you know, go to jail. 343 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.440 There's a lot there's a percentage that become fugitives. But 344 00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:08.839 you know, there's some tough decisions. You got to way 345 00:21:08.839 --> 00:21:11.680 back and forth, and the courts try to be fair 346 00:21:11.799 --> 00:21:16.559 and balance everything out. But obviously, you know, Frank had 347 00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:20.240 plans that he wasn't He didn't want to spend any 348 00:21:20.279 --> 00:21:24.759 more time in jail and realize that he was caught 349 00:21:24.799 --> 00:21:29.279 in a very serious investigation. That this was not you know, 350 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:33.720 the police doing some surveillance, making some observations, arresting him, 351 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:35.920 and the only thing they knew about him but that 352 00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.880 you know, he had a large amount of narcotics or 353 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.240 them that this is an investigation that had been going 354 00:21:40.279 --> 00:21:43.519 on for a substantial period of time. They arrested various 355 00:21:43.559 --> 00:21:47.160 members of his organization and identified him as the leader 356 00:21:47.240 --> 00:21:50.079 of the organization, so he's going to face the most, 357 00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:52.079 the more significant charges. 358 00:21:54.519 --> 00:21:59.559 But ron I understood that there was a and no 359 00:21:59.559 --> 00:22:05.640 one's been secifically, I think, but some authority said listen, Frank, 360 00:22:06.119 --> 00:22:08.960 another indictment's going to be coming down, and you're going 361 00:22:09.000 --> 00:22:10.920 to be looking at life at this thing, and you 362 00:22:11.000 --> 00:22:15.480 might get it. And that he actually asked. He actually 363 00:22:15.480 --> 00:22:17.240 asked because he heard the rumor that they were going 364 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:18.400 to throw the book at him. 365 00:22:18.559 --> 00:22:20.720 I think it was it was lose eight forty eight 366 00:22:20.759 --> 00:22:25.119 I think, yeah, which is yeah, eight forty eight right right, 367 00:22:25.160 --> 00:22:28.440 and they're gonna throw And so the story goes that 368 00:22:28.720 --> 00:22:31.559 he was in the courthouse a day or two before 369 00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:34.799 he jumped in, and he asked Raymond Dearry, who was 370 00:22:34.799 --> 00:22:36.920 a federal prosecutor at that time, you know that question, 371 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:38.839 are you going to throw the eight forty eight at me? 372 00:22:39.359 --> 00:22:42.680 And and he he left it very nebulous. You know, 373 00:22:42.680 --> 00:22:44.599 he didn't say, yes, we're going to throw it, but 374 00:22:45.759 --> 00:22:47.519 he said in such a way that it could have 375 00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:51.480 been interpreted that they were going to do that. And 376 00:22:51.519 --> 00:22:54.400 so the story goes that, you know, that was probably 377 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:59.039 the reason, you know, the thing that pushed Frank to 378 00:22:59.079 --> 00:23:03.160 decide to to flee. But you know, we really don't know, 379 00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:04.680 you know, if he was planning to do it, what 380 00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:06.799 he was planning to do. We hear all kinds of stories. 381 00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:11.359 That's the hard part of researching gangster history. And in 382 00:23:11.440 --> 00:23:14.759 Frank's case, you know, it's very difficult to research it 383 00:23:14.799 --> 00:23:18.160 because directors are missing from that trial. I mentioned in 384 00:23:18.240 --> 00:23:21.440 nineteen seventy five of his all of his lieutenants. A 385 00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:23.640 lot of people wouldn't talk. A lot of people are dead. 386 00:23:24.880 --> 00:23:28.039 So you know, you had to if you're a writer, 387 00:23:28.160 --> 00:23:30.400 you have to couch what you say. You know, you know, 388 00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:34.039 it's very hard to make a definitive statements about certain 389 00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:35.359 events in the story. 390 00:23:36.759 --> 00:23:39.240 Well, you could make an inference to a certain degree 391 00:23:39.240 --> 00:23:42.920 if if if he did get information, whether the person 392 00:23:43.000 --> 00:23:46.680 said definitively you're going to do a life sentence for 393 00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:50.119 this new indictment. Maybe he didn't want to take the 394 00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:51.039 chance he had. 395 00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:53.000 He didn't He didn't say that. He said he said 396 00:23:53.359 --> 00:23:56.599 he said maybe maybe Frank. Maybe he left it very 397 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:58.759 you know, it wasn't like it wouldn't have definitive. 398 00:23:59.519 --> 00:24:02.440 Well, if you had the possibility of doing a life imprisonment. 399 00:24:03.319 --> 00:24:05.240 You might just take all the money that you made 400 00:24:05.279 --> 00:24:07.599 and flee. You got a beautiful woman and a young, 401 00:24:07.599 --> 00:24:09.680