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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking
Speaker 5: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 5: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 5: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 4: Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 4: program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime
Speaker 4: History and the authors that have written about them. This
Speaker 4: is the remarkable story of Frank Matthews, a charismatic drug
Speaker 4: kingping from the late nineteen sixties and seventies who organized
Speaker 4: a huge criminal enterprise before jumping bill in nineteen seventy
Speaker 4: three with fifteen to twenty million and a beautiful woman
Speaker 4: nicknamed Black Caesar. Matthews has never been seen again in
Speaker 4: what has become one of organized crime's most intriguing mysteries.
Speaker 4: Lewis Rice spent twenty six years as a special agent
Speaker 4: with DEA nineteen seventy four to two thousand and one.
Speaker 4: During that time, he conducted hundreds of major international narcotic
Speaker 4: investigations and was assigned to New York, Kingston, Jamaica, Miami, Washington,
Speaker 4: d C, Philadelphia, and Detroit. He retired as a Special
Speaker 4: Agent in Charge in New York Division, the largest operational
Speaker 4: office in the DEA. The book that we're featuring this
Speaker 4: evening is Black Caesar, The Rise and disappear Sperience of
Speaker 4: Frank Matthews Kingpin, with my special guest, journalist and author,
Speaker 4: Ron Chepzik, and also Lewis Rice. Welcome to the program,
Speaker 4: Lewis Rice, and thank you for Jesus interview.
Speaker 2: Good to be with you to night.
Speaker 4: Thank you very much, and for our audience. Ron seems
Speaker 4: to have not called in as of yet, but I'm
Speaker 4: sure he will, and so we'll just proceed with this
Speaker 4: interview and then your perspective personally, and well here's Ron
Speaker 4: right now, so maybe we'll just get him in the conversation. Hello,
Speaker 4: good evening, Ron, How are you good evening?
Speaker 6: Fine? How are you doing? Dan?
Speaker 4: Very good? Thank you. We just introduced the synopsis of
Speaker 4: the book and did a brief introduction for Lewis Rice.
Speaker 4: You're our co guest and so welcome to the program.
Speaker 4: Ron Chepsick, Welcome, back to the program.
Speaker 6: I appreciate being back on the show. A good guests
Speaker 6: as well with lou Rice.
Speaker 4: Yes, and a very very intriguing story. So let's get
Speaker 4: right to this. Then, tell us a little bit about
Speaker 4: as much as you could. I know there's much more
Speaker 4: information of Frank Matthews and his later criminal life, but
Speaker 4: take us back to where it all started and tell
Speaker 4: us where Frank Matthews is originally from, who he was raised.
Speaker 4: Tell us a little bit about that. Ron about Frank
Speaker 4: Matthews's background.
Speaker 6: Well, he's a very intriguing character. He's Southern born and bred.
Speaker 6: He was born in Durham, North Carolina. His mother died
Speaker 6: when he was young and he was raised by his
Speaker 6: aunt Marcella. And the stories about him as a kid
Speaker 6: growing up in Durham, you know, this was during racial
Speaker 6: segregation times, you know, in the fifties and the sixties
Speaker 6: were thing. He was a natural born leader, uh, fearless.
Speaker 6: Everybody seemed to uh to like him. He was entrepreneurial
Speaker 6: and all those qualities uh did him well later when
Speaker 6: he decided to become a gangster. But he he was
Speaker 6: pretty ambitious and uh, like a lot of young blacks
Speaker 6: at that time UH that went that went north. He
Speaker 6: decided that he wasn't gonna do the straight route. He
Speaker 6: was going to do the gangster route, and UH he
Speaker 6: went to Philadelphia and ended up in the numbers business, UH,
Speaker 6: in the black community, and he stayed everybody year and
Speaker 6: was very kind of hazy about why he left uh Philadelphia.
Speaker 6: But anyways, he ended up in New York and of
Speaker 6: course if you wanted to make a mark in the
Speaker 6: in the criminal world, that was the place to go to.
Speaker 6: New York City, you know, it was the hub of
Speaker 6: of everything gangster. So he ended up again in the
Speaker 6: numbers for a while, and he wanted to break into
Speaker 6: the uh into the drug trade, and at that time
Speaker 6: it was controlled by the Italians through what is called
Speaker 6: was called the French connection. Was called the French connection
Speaker 6: because the laboratories were were in France, in Marseilles, and
Speaker 6: but it was run essentially by the Italian mafia. And
Speaker 6: at that time, this was in the sixties when he came.
Speaker 6: He came, uh probably around sixty three or sixty four
Speaker 6: UH to New York City. And at that time, if
Speaker 6: you were black and you were and you wanted to uh,
Speaker 6: you know, to work in the drug trade. You eventually
Speaker 6: essentially were subservient to the Italians the way to Italians.
Speaker 6: And uh, he did get some some financing. He wanted
Speaker 6: to break in, but they wouldn't let him in. They
Speaker 6: wouldn't you know, which which was in most cases, it
Speaker 6: would have closed the door to him. But there was
Speaker 6: another gangster named Rolando Gonzales, a Cuban who had great
Speaker 6: connections in Venezuela, and he had to jump bail and
Speaker 6: he fled the country and he kept contact with with Frank,
Speaker 6: and that's how Frank got started. He started through a
Speaker 6: connection through his connection in in Venezuela and in heroin,
Speaker 6: and it was the perfect storm. I mean, this is
Speaker 6: when when when heroin was becoming really big, you got
Speaker 6: Vietnam veterans coming back, twelve percent of them we're addicted
Speaker 6: to heroin. Uh. In Vietnam, you had poverty and and
Speaker 6: drugs were widely used. You had the counterculture and uh,
Speaker 6: you know, the qualification of drugs. And so he entered
Speaker 6: the drug trade at at a very opportune time. But
Speaker 6: nobody really knew any think about him. It was really
Speaker 6: strange because he was rapidly becoming you know, one of
Speaker 6: the biggest drug dealers in in the country and UH
Speaker 6: and the law enforcement didn't really didn't really have anything
Speaker 6: on him, and it was by a stroke of luck
Speaker 6: that they did uncover, you know, Frank matt Use as
Speaker 6: a as an emerging drug dealer. So that sets him up,
Speaker 6: you know, when he is about to be discovered by
Speaker 6: the UH, uh DA and UH and the NYPD and
Speaker 6: the Drug Task Force they set up to investigate drug
Speaker 6: trafficking in UH in New York City.
Speaker 4: The thing I'd like to talk about that we just
Speaker 4: kind of skipped over a little bit, because you do
Speaker 4: outline a little bit about Durham, North Court, North Carolina basically,
Speaker 4: and and the part of the reason why, or the
Speaker 4: thing that shaped Frank Matthews is that this Durham is
Speaker 4: a is an unusual community, a very very successful black community.
Speaker 4: And and as you point out, there's many people from
Speaker 4: a certain high school that went on to college. So
Speaker 4: it's a yeah, right, sort of an example of a
Speaker 4: very very affluent, uh black community at a time when
Speaker 4: there weren't so many affluent black communities that were majority
Speaker 4: of the business were blackness, and so it was it
Speaker 4: was something that anybody that lived in that community sort
Speaker 4: of that rise for success or that that the ability
Speaker 4: to achieve some modicum of success seemed to be possible
Speaker 4: in Durham.
Speaker 6: So right, yeah, he had plenty of examples of success
Speaker 6: around him.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 6: You know, it was called the Harlem of the South
Speaker 6: Durham and they had what they called the Black Wall Street,
Speaker 6: you know, with very successful bankers, a lot of money.
Speaker 6: Uh you know, it's a segregated community, but BLACKSI okay,
Speaker 6: and Durham actually a lot of them. And so so
Speaker 6: you know, he grew up in this entrepreneurial environment and
Speaker 6: uh he saw you know a lot of uh blacks
Speaker 6: becoming successful. So I think that they had impact on him.
Speaker 4: Now, lewis uh you we have been involved with the
Speaker 4: Drug Enforcement Agency, the DEA. Obviously you might not have
Speaker 4: been around right at the very beginning of this, but
Speaker 4: based on your research of the DEA itself, like Rona
Speaker 4: said that Frank wasn't really on authorities radar all the
Speaker 4: time as prominent as maybe he obviously.
Speaker 6: He should have been.
Speaker 4: But at the time, based on your research of the DEA,
Speaker 4: who were the main players in New York that the
Speaker 4: DEA felt were the important drug dealers? Heroin dealers at
Speaker 4: that time, and not Frank Matthews.
Speaker 2: So Dan, I think it's important always to set the context.
Speaker 2: DEA was formed just a little over forty years ago,
Speaker 2: probably forty years ago, in a couple of weeks in
Speaker 2: July of nineteen seventy three, by then President Richard Nixon,
Speaker 2: and he formed the Drug Enforcement Administration because the country
Speaker 2: had a major problem with heroin. You had soldiers, as
Speaker 2: Ron mentioned, coming back from the Vietnam War, addicted to
Speaker 2: opium poppies. We had large numbers of heroin addicts in
Speaker 2: New York City, and addicts commit a lot of petty crimes, carjackings, robberies.
Speaker 2: The media will write about these events, they lead these
Speaker 2: six o'clock news and daily papers, and the politicians say,
Speaker 2: we have to do something about it. The law enforcement
Speaker 2: system was not as strong and sophisticated back in the seventies.
Speaker 2: You had a lot of corruption in New York City.
Speaker 2: You had the Cerproco issues, you had the Knapp Commission,
Speaker 2: and President Nixon said, I'm going to form a special
Speaker 2: agency and named it the Drug Enforcement Administration, which was
Speaker 2: a combination of various federal investigative agencies and intelligence agencies.
Speaker 2: With the sole purpose to go after major narcotic dealers.
Speaker 2: At the time that DEA was formed in seventy three,
Speaker 2: Matthews was already a fugitive, having been identified as a major,
Speaker 2: significant dealer heroin and cocaine, the leader of an organization
Speaker 2: that was distributing, you know, large amounts of drugs throughout
Speaker 2: the Eastern Seaboard. I think at one point we tracked
Speaker 2: him in the distribution throughout twenty one states and you know,
Speaker 2: he was arrested. These guys were colorful, not only Matthews,
Speaker 2: but you had guys in the seventies, a lot of
Speaker 2: African American dealers like Frank Lucas, Nikki Bonnes, Robert Stephanie,
Speaker 2: Zach Robinson. Each one was colorful, had a crew, threw
Speaker 2: around a lot of money, attended only sporting events. They
Speaker 2: liked to be seen in public, and the medialy write
Speaker 2: about them. So he kind of made it somewhat easier
Speaker 2: for law enforcement to, you know, zero in on these
Speaker 2: guys and try to find out how they were making
Speaker 2: their money. And so Matthews of course came to the
Speaker 2: attention of especially a very young agency to try to
Speaker 2: show that they can develop the major cases, arrest the
Speaker 2: major drug dealers and bring some calm to the streets
Speaker 2: of the city throughout the country, and they went after Matthews. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: forty years later he still has not been caught, but
Speaker 2: it was not because of a lack of effort.
Speaker 4: So outline the plan to what was the plan to
Speaker 4: try to infiltrate this gang, and what was the methodology
Speaker 4: that you tried to employ here to try to bring
Speaker 4: down this guy. What was some of the techniques.
Speaker 2: Well, as I said when I joined in seventy three,
Speaker 2: Matthews was joined in seventy four. Rather Matthews was already
Speaker 2: a fugitive, but it was normal investigative techniques. I mean,
Speaker 2: to the extent that you can. You try to insert
Speaker 2: an undercover agent so you have firsthand knowledge of the
Speaker 2: planning of the organization, who's in the leadership position, how
Speaker 2: they acquire the narcotics, and then how they move their
Speaker 2: money and any properties they may be purchasing around the country.
Speaker 2: If you cannot get an undercover agent in there, because
Speaker 2: sometimes these organizations are extremely insular and they're not open
Speaker 2: to new faces, you know, you would have arrested maybe
Speaker 2: someone in the organization and that person says, hey, I'll
Speaker 2: give you the information to maybe reduce my federal sentence
Speaker 2: and take you inside, or I'll be your eyes and
Speaker 2: ears on the inside and let you know what's going on.
Speaker 2: And of course behind the scenes, you know, we would
Speaker 2: try to corroborate what they're saying and telling us to
Speaker 2: make sure that we have a strong prosecutal case. And
Speaker 2: usually again, since this is the Drug Enforcement Administrations and
Speaker 2: these cases going to be prosecuted in federal court, and
Speaker 2: you're working throughout the investigation, which may last for six
Speaker 2: months to well over a year before you actually arrest somebody,
Speaker 2: you're working closely with a federal prosecutor, and so you're
Speaker 2: going to charge these people at the highest level of
Speaker 2: the federal trafficking charges so they can, you know, will
Speaker 2: upon conviction, serve the maximum sentence, and that will kind
Speaker 2: of encourage them to cooperate. Realizing that the only thing
Speaker 2: a lawyer can do for you is basically drain you
Speaker 2: drive by charging your lawyer fees. But the case is
Speaker 2: so tight because we had the advantage of working six
Speaker 2: months to a year before we actually put handcuffs on you,
Speaker 2: that there is no wiggable The only way out of
Speaker 2: going to prison for a long period of time is
Speaker 2: to cooperate, and slowly but surely people start to realize that. Then,
Speaker 2: you know, they try to reduce their liability by joining
Speaker 2: the team, either cooperating as a witness for historical informational
Speaker 2: conspiracy cases or actually becoming a witness and introducing other
Speaker 2: people into the organization.
Speaker 4: Now, Ron, we got to go backwards where I was
Speaker 4: gonna Well, I want to go back and explain how
Speaker 4: we just talked about how they did some research or
Speaker 4: they did the operation was six months in the making,
Speaker 4: but you talk about it being a courier for the
Speaker 4: for this French connection that he has directly in Venezuela
Speaker 4: that ends up leading to the downfall of all these guys.
Speaker 4: So tell us about the actual indictment and how it
Speaker 4: came that Matthews was finally even though it looked like
Speaker 4: he couldn't be caught, how he finally was indicted.
Speaker 6: Well, they built they built a case, like Louis saying,
Speaker 6: you know, gradually, and I was gonna add too that
Speaker 6: they used two very important techniques as well. Uh they
Speaker 6: got cort ordered wire taps you know, to uh to
Speaker 6: to uh uh to listen in on conversations with with
Speaker 6: Matthews and some of his associates, and they also did
Speaker 6: old fashion and surveillance too. And what's really interesting about
Speaker 6: Matthews is that he seemed to know that this was
Speaker 6: going on, but he didn't seem to seem to care.
Speaker 6: But slowly they put together a case. And at that time,
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy they passed the Rico statue where you
Speaker 6: can prove conspiracy. You know, a person didn't have to
Speaker 6: handle drugs, you just have to be part of a
Speaker 6: conspiracy that dealt with drugs in an organization, and so
Speaker 6: it was a very effective tool. It was a new tool.
Speaker 6: But they build a conspiracy case against Matthews in about
Speaker 6: eighteen others in his organization, and he didn't stick around
Speaker 6: for the indictment. He was gone July second, nineteen seventy three,
Speaker 6: and it wasn't until next year that the others in
Speaker 6: his organization were prosecuted.
Speaker 4: Now, how is it that they'd let somebody like him go?
Speaker 4: They obviously wanted to post a big bail with him.
Speaker 4: And what was the initial bail that was demanded from him?
Speaker 4: And what did he eventually negotiate that down to? And
Speaker 4: then how on earth? And why explain because it's a
Speaker 4: great story on why he was going to court. He
Speaker 4: didn't have no reason to think that he was going
Speaker 4: to do life. He thought he was confident in this
Speaker 4: court case. But what happened? So take us back how
Speaker 4: he even got the bail in the first place, What
Speaker 4: was the bail, and then how it was that he
Speaker 4: decided to.
Speaker 6: Move. Well, the law enforcesmen decided to They're worried that
Speaker 6: he might he might skip town because they're getting word
Speaker 6: that he knew that they're on to them. So he
Speaker 6: went to Las Vegas with a girlfriend named show Denis
Speaker 6: Brown and was on his way to the Super Bowl
Speaker 6: that was played between Washington Redskins and Miami Miami Dolphins
Speaker 6: in nineteen seventy three Super Bowl, and he was arrested
Speaker 6: at McCarron Airport in Las Vegas. And when he went
Speaker 6: before the judge, it was an astounding veil. It was
Speaker 6: like five million dollars bail. It was the biggest bail
Speaker 6: in history, and it was, you know, just incredibly. They
Speaker 6: really late. They made a good case for why the
Speaker 6: bill should be high, but even the uh the prosecutors
Speaker 6: that came down from New York were shocked by the thing.
Speaker 6: But by the time he left went down to two
Speaker 6: point five five million, and he was extradited back to
Speaker 6: New York City. And when a couple of months later,
Speaker 6: when when bail was set, uh, he went before the
Speaker 6: judge and they argued for a very strong, very tough
Speaker 6: bail sentence on him because they were afraid that he
Speaker 6: was going to jump jump bail once it was set,
Speaker 6: because there was a belief that he was putting away money. Uh,
Speaker 6: you know, every month he was putting away money, and
Speaker 6: they the DA suspected that that he was getting a
Speaker 6: nest egg that he would use if if he had
Speaker 6: to flee down. So it came he went down to
Speaker 6: three hundred and twenty five thousand, which was you know,
Speaker 6: considered outrageous by the prosecutor because they thought it was
Speaker 6: too far, too low. And of course he was easily
Speaker 6: able to raise that money. And and like he hung
Speaker 6: around and in July second, a couple months later, he
Speaker 6: jumped in.
Speaker 4: Now, but tell us why he did that, because that's
Speaker 4: a very good point, because I think in hindsight you
Speaker 4: could always.
Speaker 2: Say obviously that was you know, not the right decision,
Speaker 2: because he fled. But you know, bail is basically to
Speaker 2: ensure somebody's going to go to court and come back
Speaker 2: to court and look at roots in the community. You know,
Speaker 2: does he have family ties, is he married, does he
Speaker 2: have kids? What's a likelihood you know that we think
Speaker 2: that he will return, even though the offense may be
Speaker 2: very serious. You know, most defendants do show up a
Speaker 2: most defendants do upon conviction, you know, go to jail.
Speaker 2: There's a lot there's a percentage that become fugitives. But
Speaker 2: you know, there's some tough decisions. You got to way
Speaker 2: back and forth, and the courts try to be fair
Speaker 2: and balance everything out. But obviously, you know, Frank had
Speaker 2: plans that he wasn't He didn't want to spend any
Speaker 2: more time in jail and realize that he was caught
Speaker 2: in a very serious investigation. That this was not you know,
Speaker 2: the police doing some surveillance, making some observations, arresting him,
Speaker 2: and the only thing they knew about him but that
Speaker 2: you know, he had a large amount of narcotics or
Speaker 2: them that this is an investigation that had been going
Speaker 2: on for a substantial period of time. They arrested various
Speaker 2: members of his organization and identified him as the leader
Speaker 2: of the organization, so he's going to face the most,
Speaker 2: the more significant charges.
Speaker 4: But ron I understood that there was a and no
Speaker 4: one's been secifically, I think, but some authority said listen, Frank,
Speaker 4: another indictment's going to be coming down, and you're going
Speaker 4: to be looking at life at this thing, and you
Speaker 4: might get it. And that he actually asked. He actually
Speaker 4: asked because he heard the rumor that they were going
Speaker 4: to throw the book at him.
Speaker 6: I think it was it was lose eight forty eight
Speaker 6: I think, yeah, which is yeah, eight forty eight right right,
Speaker 6: and they're gonna throw And so the story goes that
Speaker 6: he was in the courthouse a day or two before
Speaker 6: he jumped in, and he asked Raymond Dearry, who was
Speaker 6: a federal prosecutor at that time, you know that question,
Speaker 6: are you going to throw the eight forty eight at me?
Speaker 6: And and he he left it very nebulous. You know,
Speaker 6: he didn't say, yes, we're going to throw it, but
Speaker 6: he said in such a way that it could have
Speaker 6: been interpreted that they were going to do that. And
Speaker 6: so the story goes that, you know, that was probably
Speaker 6: the reason, you know, the thing that pushed Frank to
Speaker 6: decide to to flee. But you know, we really don't know,
Speaker 6: you know, if he was planning to do it, what
Speaker 6: he was planning to do. We hear all kinds of stories.
Speaker 6: That's the hard part of researching gangster history. And in
Speaker 6: Frank's case, you know, it's very difficult to research it
Speaker 6: because directors are missing from that trial. I mentioned in
Speaker 6: nineteen seventy five of his all of his lieutenants. A
Speaker 6: lot of people wouldn't talk. A lot of people are dead.
Speaker 6: So you know, you had to if you're a writer,
Speaker 6: you have to couch what you say. You know, you know,
Speaker 6: it's very hard to make a definitive statements about certain
Speaker 6: events in the story.
Speaker 4: Well, you could make an inference to a certain degree
Speaker 4: if if if he did get information, whether the person
Speaker 4: said definitively you're going to do a life sentence for
Speaker 4: this new indictment. Maybe he didn't want to take the
Speaker 4: chance he had.
Speaker 6: He didn't He didn't say that. He said he said
Speaker 6: he said maybe maybe Frank. Maybe he left it very
Speaker 6: you know, it wasn't like it wouldn't have definitive.
Speaker 4: Well, if you had the possibility of doing a life imprisonment.
Speaker 4: You might just take all the money that you made
Speaker 4: and flee. You got a beautiful woman and a young,
Speaker 4: beautiful woman, and so he goes. I mean he had
Speaker 4: the ability to do that. Now, tell us a little
Speaker 4: bit about this Cheryl Brown who is she? Because he
Speaker 4: has a wife that's was involved in his business. They
Speaker 4: called her. I guess she was involved in counting the money.
Speaker 4: She knew about she was in a confidently she was indicted,
Speaker 4: and she was indicted, even though on a technicality she
Speaker 4: beat it. But tell us about Cheryl Brown who she is,
Speaker 4: and then tell us about his former wife and his
Speaker 4: three children. So again we kind of skipped over those things.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I see you read the book, Dan, Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 6: you've got you know, all the facts that that's good
Speaker 6: on that. But the Cheryl Denice Brown was was a girlfriend.
Speaker 6: And Frank had lots of girlfriends. I mean, one of
Speaker 6: its meeting about this story was hearing all the women
Speaker 6: he had in various towns. Uh For example, he was
Speaker 6: a frequent visitor to the Playboy Club in UH in Atlanta,
Speaker 6: and he had a couple of girlfriends there. I met
Speaker 6: another guy introduced me to a woman in Philadelphia that
Speaker 6: was supposedly his girlfriend, but he seemed to take a
Speaker 6: really liking to this. Sheeryld Denise Brown, and we don't
Speaker 6: know too much about her. She was about five five
Speaker 6: or six years younger and very beautiful. He saw the
Speaker 6: picture in the uh in the book and she evidently
Speaker 6: she liked to hang around in bar. She came from
Speaker 6: a good family. The her parents evidently were school teachers
Speaker 6: and uh. But she met Frank one night and at
Speaker 6: a bar and was obviously taken by you know him,
Speaker 6: and he was a very handsome guy. You know, the
Speaker 6: woman reading the book look the pictures. They say, he's
Speaker 6: a very good looking guy. So you know, he was
Speaker 6: attracted to him. And what's really amazing, you know, he
Speaker 6: was a womanizer. But he also had a wife name
Speaker 6: Barbara Hinton, uh and three kids at home, and one
Speaker 6: of them was was by him. And she took a
Speaker 6: very active role in her business. She had accounting background
Speaker 6: and uh, she she really took care of the money.
Speaker 6: That's what the d agents that that investigated Frank said.
Speaker 6: You know, they said she was very capable, giveable woman.
Speaker 6: And what's really strange is it's hard not to believe
Speaker 6: that she didn't know all this stuff was going on,
Speaker 6: you know, Frank's womanizing and all that, you know, because
Speaker 6: he was gone for a long periods of time because
Speaker 6: of the because of the nature of his business, and
Speaker 6: he would travel, and you know, it didn't seem to
Speaker 6: really bother her. And there's really no stories once once
Speaker 6: she he left with this woman, well we don't know
Speaker 6: if if he left with this woman. We assumed she
Speaker 6: he left with this woman because she disappeared at the
Speaker 6: same time he did in that same period there. But
Speaker 6: actually this is the story for her, is the same
Speaker 6: story for the story for Frank. There's really no no
Speaker 6: evidence to prove it conclusively on that. But after Frank left,
Speaker 6: she never really talked about it. As I mentioned in
Speaker 6: the book, she was very close mouthed. The agents went
Speaker 6: to see her first, the first the d agents that
Speaker 6: were on the case, and after a year was transferred
Speaker 6: to the Marshalls, and she didn't really she really didn't
Speaker 6: say anything. And eventually she moved to Cincinnati. I have
Speaker 6: a story in there I met. I was able to
Speaker 6: track down a couple of kids that grew up with
Speaker 6: the children of Matthews after he fled. She moved to
Speaker 6: an apartment on ninety fifth Street. And one of the
Speaker 6: interesting things they told me was when they went into
Speaker 6: the house that there was no pictures of Frank anywhere.
Speaker 6: You know, he was absolutely you know, gone from their
Speaker 6: lives as far as pictures were concerned. And I always
Speaker 6: thought that was interesting, you know it you know, And
Speaker 6: there's really no evidence that she had a lot of
Speaker 6: money when when after he fled, which means that that uh,
Speaker 6: and that he that she got some of the money
Speaker 6: because he's supposedly fled with with between fifteen and twenty
Speaker 6: million dollars and again that's not you know, can be
Speaker 6: proven that, but that's what that's what the DA suspected,
Speaker 6: and that's the general wisdom about Frank Matthews. But the
Speaker 6: Marshalls did have lost the search of the financial records
Speaker 6: and they couldn't find anything, any evidence that that they
Speaker 6: had a bumping wealth anytime during the forty years that
Speaker 6: Frank fled. So whether he talked to them or not
Speaker 6: after he fled, uh, you know, it's really an open question.
Speaker 6: I really don't think that that he did, uh. And
Speaker 6: I have my own theories about what happened to him.
Speaker 4: Lewis low of what what exactly does the DA in
Speaker 4: terms of looking for him. Obviously he was a fugitive
Speaker 4: and very high up on the list of people that
Speaker 4: were wanted. What did the what was the what did
Speaker 4: the DEA conclude after looking for him for a certain
Speaker 4: amount of time, well in terms of where he might
Speaker 4: have went and what might have happened to him.
Speaker 2: You know, at one point, immediately when he became a
Speaker 2: fugitive been seventy three, a DA formed a special operation
Speaker 2: which was funded out of DA headquarters in Washington, d C.
Speaker 2: With the group of agents and New York City detectives
Speaker 2: that were intimately familiar with Matthews and his investigation, and
Speaker 2: they had the money and the resources and the push
Speaker 2: to really travel and interview people and try to locate him.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was as if you can imagine this,
Speaker 2: this is a new agency up against other federal agencies
Speaker 2: that have been around a lot longer doing a similar mission,
Speaker 2: like the FBI Customs, and you have to prove your worth,
Speaker 2: and you know, you've got a big guy in your area,
Speaker 2: which is narcotics, and he's on the run. So they
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time and a lot of resources
Speaker 2: really having agents dedicated working around the world developing leads
Speaker 2: to try to locate him and arrest him. And at
Speaker 2: some point, I think in the early eighties, there was
Speaker 2: a mandate from the Attorney General that now all futures
Speaker 2: of de EA would be turned over to the US
Speaker 2: Marshals to investigate and pursue. And then the U S
Speaker 2: Marshals out of the Eastern District of New York picked
Speaker 2: up the investigation. Then they worked, you know, over time
Speaker 2: and over in overdrive, trying to locate him, also redoing
Speaker 2: the the case file that the DEA agents had put together,
Speaker 2: putting money out there, talking to new to people again.
Speaker 2: You know, sometimes time. Sometimes initially people may not want
Speaker 2: to talk, but you know, a couple of years ago,
Speaker 2: buying for whatever reason, money or you know, you know,
Speaker 2: change in the relationship where they're no longer friends or
Speaker 2: that tight, you know, they may want to give him up.
Speaker 2: So the Marshalls tried to do the same thing, and
Speaker 2: we never could locate him. And as I moved on
Speaker 2: through my career, there were points in the early nineties
Speaker 2: and at the end of the nineties, closing the two
Speaker 2: thousand in Philadelphia and also New York, we started to
Speaker 2: beat the bushes again to see if we could drum
Speaker 2: up some interest and finding out where he was. And
Speaker 2: we had people, you know, give us some information and
Speaker 2: we had to follow up with it. At one point
Speaker 2: we asked John List, who became well known throughout the
Speaker 2: country when he worked with Americas Most Wanted, and put
Speaker 2: together the bust of John List, who was a futuive
Speaker 2: oative Northern New Jersey or Middle New Jersey that had
Speaker 2: killed his wife and kids, I think five members of
Speaker 2: the family, and he was profiled. The bus was profiled
Speaker 2: in America's Most Wanted and within that Sunday night, within
Speaker 2: you know, seventy two hours, he was in custody. And
Speaker 2: so we went to Bob Benda before he passed away,
Speaker 2: and we gave him the information we had in terms
Speaker 2: of lifestyle and pictures that we had file pictures, and
Speaker 2: you know, he created a bus based on what he
Speaker 2: knew and what he would possibly look like, you know,
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Speaker 2: Do in Philadelphia and working with the agents in New
Speaker 2: York to really again, you know, travel around the country
Speaker 2: and then try to increase the award reward for him
Speaker 2: and see if we can get some information. We did
Speaker 2: get some information, We did get some leads, and we
Speaker 2: will we follow those up. But obviously he's not in
Speaker 2: custody now, so it was not a total success.
Speaker 4: What was the theory and what was the theory that
Speaker 4: where he likely could have gone? I mean, there's only
Speaker 4: so many countries that you're more likely to go to.
Speaker 4: What was the idea in terms of where he might
Speaker 4: have stashed some cash and where he would be able
Speaker 4: to go in the country that would be friendly to
Speaker 4: somebody on the run.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a good question he could have gone
Speaker 2: to some place in the United States because or out
Speaker 2: of the country. Because the best thing is if these
Speaker 2: guys can you know, do a one pint eighty in
Speaker 2: terms of lifestyle, you know, not be highly public, not
Speaker 2: the fancy clothes, not for a lot of for around
Speaker 2: a lot of money, and blend in in the community
Speaker 2: and obey the rules and the of the community and
Speaker 2: not draw attention to themselves. They increased the chances of
Speaker 2: staying out there, you know. Uh, And and they're motivated
Speaker 2: to do that because they don't have so much at stake.
Speaker 2: I mean, they know exactly who they are. And if
Speaker 2: somebody starts to wonder, where did that you get money?
Speaker 2: How can he hazardless money? Or the story he's telling
Speaker 2: about how he inherited this money doesn't make sense. I
Speaker 2: think he's into something illegal. All you have to do
Speaker 2: is anonymously call the police and an investigation is started.
Speaker 2: So it's it's really encumbered upon a fugitive a major
Speaker 2: future if he wants to stay out there, to really
Speaker 2: blend in, you know, take a what they call a
Speaker 2: square job, a nine to five job, and you know,
Speaker 2: be a productive member of that community and not draw
Speaker 2: any attention to yourself, you know, in the United States
Speaker 2: or outside the United States.
Speaker 4: You know now, is it likely based on the character
Speaker 4: that you studied, not that you knew him, but based
Speaker 4: on what you saw in terms of his lifestyle in
Speaker 4: his entire life or that you know of, is it
Speaker 4: likely he got a nine to five job and just
Speaker 4: blend it in somewhere.
Speaker 2: It's likely that he knew that the case against him
Speaker 2: was strong because he knew as key the key members
Speaker 2: of his organization were arrested. He knew that with the
Speaker 2: passing of time, the loyalty sort of is not as
Speaker 2: strong as it was in the early days, that somebody
Speaker 2: may cooperate and and really, you know, give a strong
Speaker 2: evidence against him. And he knew he was facing on
Speaker 2: the down side, ten years in federal prison or up
Speaker 2: to life in prison. And so if there's anybody that's
Speaker 2: going to be motivated not to trip a wire, it
Speaker 2: would be that kind of individual. He's a smart guy.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a leader of an organization twenty
Speaker 2: one states and he wasn't even thirty years of age.
Speaker 2: You know. He was the guy that was challenging the
Speaker 2: you know, Italian mafia way back when when Omurta meant
Speaker 2: something in the mafia. Okay, so he was he was
Speaker 2: a strong guy. He was a bright guy. He was
Speaker 2: a smart guy. He was a vicious guy. You know.
Speaker 2: But he knew that now it's it's over, it's over.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't want to make that mistake and
Speaker 2: go back to the penitentiary for the rest of my life.
Speaker 2: You know, because if you look at all the federal
Speaker 2: crimes in the books, the probably one of the most
Speaker 2: severe ones is the ones for narcotics trafficking, you know,
Speaker 2: and even when you travel outside in the United States
Speaker 2: you mentioned overseas. I mean, what these major drug dealers
Speaker 2: fear more than anything else is a federal indictment. Because
Speaker 2: if there's a federal indictment with their name or in
Speaker 2: the United States and we have extradition with that country,
Speaker 2: they know sooner or later they're going to be in
Speaker 2: the in the US court system, and at the federal level,
Speaker 2: that money is not going to be able to help them.
Speaker 2: They're not can be able to manipulate the criminal justice system.
Speaker 2: It's not going to help them with the jury, it's
Speaker 2: not gonna help them with the judge. The only thing
Speaker 2: that the only person is going to benefit from that
Speaker 2: is a lawyer. So what the motivation would have been
Speaker 2: totally in his interest to really change his lifestyle one
Speaker 2: hundred and eighty degrees.
Speaker 4: Now, Ron, I pose the same question to you, but
Speaker 4: the some let me ask, well, let me just I
Speaker 4: was just let me put this because this piqued my interest,
Speaker 4: the idea that a twenty year old woman would never
Speaker 4: contact her family again. And like you said, you found
Speaker 4: it unusual that the photos weren't on the walls anymore.
Speaker 4: At the Hinton family and along with his kids. What
Speaker 4: is your theory about where he went and what actually
Speaker 4: happened And do you really think that they both survived
Speaker 4: if there was no contact with those important figures in
Speaker 4: their both their lives.
Speaker 6: Well, let me put this way. There's a lot of
Speaker 6: people have disappeared in Gangman and all that, but there's
Speaker 6: always something like Weddy. When Weddy Boyger disappeared, you know,
Speaker 6: they had an ATM picture of an ATM machine in
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety eight and the news coming back to Boston.
Speaker 6: They had very reliable evidence. But in terms of Matthews,
Speaker 6: and it's described in the book Mike Pizzy, who was
Speaker 6: a US marshall that tracked the Matthews story for like
Speaker 6: fifteen years and all that. You know, he said that
Speaker 6: when at the end of the day they had lots
Speaker 6: of reams of paper, but not one solid piece of evidence.
Speaker 6: There's not one solid piece of When I say not
Speaker 6: one solid there are no informants. You know, usually somebody talks,
Speaker 6: they want to save their skin. There's absolutely no informants.
Speaker 6: One of the marshals went back about fifteen years twenty
Speaker 6: years after Matthews disappeared and reinterviewed all those people that
Speaker 6: were still alive on that indictment, and he came away
Speaker 6: convinced that none of them had ever seen Matthews after
Speaker 6: he disappeared. You know, they wouldn't talk. They said, we're
Speaker 6: not going to tell you anything. But he left, you know,
Speaker 6: convinced that they didn't they didn't do that. There's no fingerprints,
Speaker 6: there's no sightings. There's all kinds of stories and I
Speaker 6: described them in the book about seeing him, crazy stories.
Speaker 6: You know, it's like sasquatch. It's like sasquatch. So there's
Speaker 6: really no evidence. And I think that something could have
Speaker 6: happened to Matthews soon after he after he jumpail. I
Speaker 6: think he was alive for a certain period of time.
Speaker 6: But in the book, I described a very interesting side
Speaker 6: story about the CIA right and the Corsican mafia, and
Speaker 6: Matthews had really disrupted that nice druggering they had going
Speaker 6: by talking very freely on the phone. And I think
Speaker 6: part of that was because he had a cocaine problem
Speaker 6: and it was getting worse near the end, just before
Speaker 6: he jumped. And you know, if he left the country,
Speaker 6: he was out of his element. You know, he didn't
Speaker 6: have any homeboys to rely on. He wasn't in his neighborhood,
Speaker 6: and he could easily have been killed by somebody, especially
Speaker 6: if you're reported to have fifteen to twenty million dollars
Speaker 6: and you say, well, where's this money. There's absolutely no
Speaker 6: I mean money laundering laws in those favor primitive and
Speaker 6: actually there's actually no trail of this money anywhere, and
Speaker 6: so you know, he could have He was also potentially
Speaker 6: a witness in that trial. And the CIA was involved
Speaker 6: with drugs, just like they were in Southeast Asia during
Speaker 6: the Vietnam War, and you know, they were very worried
Speaker 6: about Castro had taken power, and you know they formed
Speaker 6: the lines of convenience with the Corsican Mafia's mafia and
Speaker 6: could easily have gotten rid of Matthews. And of course
Speaker 6: I described in the book where they were going to
Speaker 6: build a very strong case using the Venezuelan connection, and
Speaker 6: the CIA told him to drop it, and they did.
Speaker 6: They cut off that whole part of the of the
Speaker 6: case they had against the Matthews ring and those sixteen
Speaker 6: to eighteen drug traffickers in Venezuela that were busted in
Speaker 6: that big bust that happened, including Orlando Gonzalez. All of
Speaker 6: them were quietly two years ago released without any charges
Speaker 6: being filed against them. Then then when to jail, and
Speaker 6: which is very interesting. So I don't think he's a lie, really,
Speaker 6: I don't, although it's you know, my opinion is conjectured,
Speaker 6: but I think it's an educated opinion because I think
Speaker 6: most of the evidence for him being dead is stronger
Speaker 6: than for him being alive.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you state that, you make that case.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: I found interesting too is the story you tell about
Speaker 4: the arrogance of Frank Matthews and the Smalls. Basically of
Speaker 4: Frank Matthews when he moves across the street from Tommy
Speaker 4: three Fingers and Paul Castillano there and just gives us
Speaker 4: the finger up the hundred literally there. That tell us
Speaker 4: a little bit about that because and what that possibly
Speaker 4: could have done for him as well or done again,
Speaker 4: you know, not done any good for him.
Speaker 6: Lest was that way? Well, you know, he went out.
Speaker 6: He was living in Brooklyn on Carkson Avenue and a
Speaker 6: nice apartment and nothing, very very lavish. But of course
Speaker 6: he had more money than you what to do with.
Speaker 6: And I give you a plenty of examples in the
Speaker 6: book about the money that he had was phenomenal on
Speaker 6: that and so he decided he was going to move
Speaker 6: out into a nicer surroundings. And for why he chose
Speaker 6: Todheil on Staten Island, nobody seems to know, you know,
Speaker 6: but he must have known when he moved into that house.
Speaker 6: And I went by that house and I looked across
Speaker 6: the street and you could see the sign on the
Speaker 6: on the on the driveway Luchesi right there, and literally
Speaker 6: you could see into the other house across the street.
Speaker 6: So that's where he moved. And you know, these Italians
Speaker 6: weren't it's actually racially enlightened, you know, back then. And
Speaker 6: they have this black person move into the neighborhood and
Speaker 6: there were no black people living in that neighborhood and
Speaker 6: a gangster the boot because he knew who he was,
Speaker 6: and you know, living this high, you know, nice lifestyle
Speaker 6: redoing the old house. There were contractors there. They spent
Speaker 6: like two hundred thousand dollars for the house. There's a
Speaker 6: lot of money back then on that. And he didn't
Speaker 6: seem to care. And there were you know, they talked
Speaker 6: about him and they had some of the Manfia guys
Speaker 6: on the wire. In fact, one of the agents told
Speaker 6: me that there was even talk about getting rid of
Speaker 6: Matthews because he was considered a nuisance. And I think
Speaker 6: that if Matthews would have hung around much longer, there
Speaker 6: probably would have been some problems and maybe some violence
Speaker 6: that would have resulted from his presence in that neighborhood.
Speaker 6: But you know, he put his kids into Staten Island
Speaker 6: Academy and so he was a good father. I interviewed
Speaker 6: the tutor you know, in the book, and essentially he
Speaker 6: was a good father. He hired this tutor. He came
Speaker 6: over every day, and I think that Matthews was really
Speaker 6: thinking about getting out of the drug trade and doing
Speaker 6: something legitimate because he had a very brilliant business mind,
Speaker 6: and he had bought a lot of real estate and
Speaker 6: he had a lot of businesses. And I think that
Speaker 6: his long term plan was to get out and he
Speaker 6: wanted to have a better life, you know, for his kids,
Speaker 6: and that was evident the way he treated them.
Speaker 4: What's the fate of the children now?
Speaker 6: And it's interesting, you know, I described it in the
Speaker 6: book The Marshals interviewing the children, you know, fifteen to
Speaker 6: twenty years on and it was very shocking because if
Speaker 6: you know Matthews had been in touch with that, I
Speaker 6: find it very hard to That's another reason why I
Speaker 6: think he's probably dead. I talked with the grandson, the son,
Speaker 6: his namesake, Frank Junior didn't want to talk to me.
Speaker 6: I talked to his grands and I didn't get the
Speaker 6: feeling that you know, there was he was a presence
Speaker 6: in their lives, you know, Frank Matthews the president in
Speaker 6: their lives. But their lives went to hell after he disappeared,
Speaker 6: and I think all three of them ended up in
Speaker 6: trouble with the law in some way, and the marshals
Speaker 6: did do us. You know, they never got any money,
Speaker 6: They never had any money, and so it's very very,
Speaker 6: very strange. You know, if if Frank had fled the
Speaker 6: way he treated them while he was still on this
Speaker 6: side of the law and then to flee and then
Speaker 6: to totally ignore his children, now, you know, is he's
Speaker 6: very strange if he was alive.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Now, lou what was the what are the DEA
Speaker 4: estimates of the kind of business that he was doing.
Speaker 4: Frank Matthews was doing per year at his peak there
Speaker 4: for the couple of years or two years that they
Speaker 4: really know about in New York or two or three years,
Speaker 4: what was the estimate, and then maybe we could tell
Speaker 4: us what that kind of money would be in terms
Speaker 4: of today's money.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so so easily. You know, hundreds of kilos of
Speaker 2: heroin and cocaine throughout the East and seaboard twenty one states.
Speaker 2: Great obviously leadership skills and contacts outside of the United
Speaker 2: States to be able to get these drugs in and
Speaker 2: also you know, supervise the distribution throughout the Eastern Seaboard.
Speaker 2: And you look at again contexts when Matthews was in
Speaker 2: his prime late sixties early seventies sort of dovetails with
Speaker 2: what was going on in the United States with a
Speaker 2: lot of racial tension and segregation and African Americans fighting
Speaker 2: for equality. You know, Matthews at his young age again
Speaker 2: less than thirty, put together a meeting with the key
Speaker 2: African American drug dealers in Atlanta, and the whole focus
Speaker 2: of the meeting was to get everybody on board and
Speaker 2: figure out a way to cut out the Italian mafia
Speaker 2: and go right to the source and maintain control on
Speaker 2: the importation and distribution and then maximize the ability to
Speaker 2: make money, you know, so and when he was charged,
Speaker 2: you know, he was charged, you know, initially the conspiracy
Speaker 2: count and which upon conviction you could get anywhere up
Speaker 2: to twenty years. But there was a lot of talk,
Speaker 2: and Ron mentioned it before, about the possibility of indicting
Speaker 2: him for twenty one USC eight forty eight, which to
Speaker 2: prove that case, the government was convinced that he was
Speaker 2: the leader of an organization five or more people and
Speaker 2: they made substantial profits, and upon conviction of that charge,
Speaker 2: he'd do a minimum of ten years to maximum of
Speaker 2: life in prison. And again in context, when you think
Speaker 2: about the early seventies, with the formation of the Drug
Speaker 2: Enforcement Administration, with the heroin problem throughout the United States,
Speaker 2: with the crime the New York City Police Department at
Speaker 2: one time was tracking over twenty two hundred murders a year,
Speaker 2: and most of those, of course with drug related murders.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a good chance that if he was
Speaker 2: convicted of the of an eight to forty eight, he
Speaker 2: would have done life in prison. And so he was
Speaker 2: again seen as a major drug dealer that the quality of.
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Speaker 2: Of life in the country would be enhanced if he
Speaker 2: was in custody and the goblet was able to laudge
Speaker 2: prosecutal cases against most of them mem of his organization.
Speaker 2: But of course he was the leader, and you know,
Speaker 2: it's not a success until you get the leader in custody,
Speaker 2: and that never happened.
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know. The thing is what this story really
Speaker 4: shows too, is that as charismatic and good looking and
Speaker 4: nicely dressed as Frank Matthews was, it's the pain and
Speaker 4: devastation he's bringing to those communities. Because you were talking
Speaker 4: about Frank Matthews and some of these other people basically
Speaker 4: started the war on drugs in terms of Nixon declaring
Speaker 4: war after he was informed by agents that listen, there's
Speaker 4: a million users, there's a million addicts right here in
Speaker 4: New York City. And so they initiated this war on drugs.
Speaker 4: And when you talk about a third of all available
Speaker 4: employable men not working, and you bring that kind of
Speaker 4: devastation to a community and with it comes the violence.
Speaker 4: And you said, like Frank Matthews, he wasn't his hands
Speaker 4: weren't tied, his hands weren't bloodied, but he wasn't shy
Speaker 4: about being involved in whatever it took.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a no point, Dan. And when you think
Speaker 2: about the seventy especially in nineteen seventy, President Nixon started
Speaker 2: the phrase public Enemy number one, and that was narcotics.
Speaker 2: And so there was a focus at the federal level
Speaker 2: that you know, the federal government has the resources, it
Speaker 2: has the connections internationally and the relationships through the state
Speaker 2: department and through aggressive law enforcement in the United States,
Speaker 2: that the federal government has to step up and get involved.
Speaker 2: And so to let these guys know that there's a
Speaker 2: price to pay. You know, the mafia, all organized crime groups,
Speaker 2: which are you know, a lot more dangerous than individual plays.
Speaker 2: These were organized groups, and to take them to task,
Speaker 2: and slowly, but surely, you know, one by one, DEA
Speaker 2: started to pick these guys off, and forty years later,
Speaker 2: as DEA celebrates his fortieth anniversary, Say, it's a reputation
Speaker 2: of success. You know, it's a young agency and junior
Speaker 2: agency compared to the brother and sister agencies at the
Speaker 2: federal level, especially in the Department of Justice atf the
Speaker 2: US Marshals, the FBI and such. But it's an agency
Speaker 2: that you know, if you're in the criminal world, people
Speaker 2: will know the power of DEA and the ability of
Speaker 2: agents to law ad prosecutable cases against leaders of drug
Speaker 2: organizations inside the United States and those that live in
Speaker 2: source countries and transhipment countries.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, the the demand will
Speaker 4: always be there and so you guys will never you know,
Speaker 4: be able to say, hey, success. But in terms of
Speaker 4: organized crime and the mafia and those associated in the
Speaker 4: same types of businesses, you guys have been, in part
Speaker 4: with other agencies, very very successful in sort of dismantling
Speaker 4: some of the biggest crime families in American history.
Speaker 2: Well, you look at you, you're very you're one hundred
Speaker 2: percent correct, man, Because you know, a generation ago, people
Speaker 2: wanted to be identified as let's say, the leader of
Speaker 2: one of the five crime families in the mafia. Now
Speaker 2: they know that's a sentence that they're gonna go to
Speaker 2: the penitentiary. You know, they don't want to be identified
Speaker 2: put on the daily papers as this is the leader
Speaker 2: of the Genevese family, the gain being no family, the
Speaker 2: Colombo family, the Luges family. They don't want to be
Speaker 2: identified as a leader because once they're identified as a leader,
Speaker 2: you know, the federal government's gonna go after him, you know,
Speaker 2: working with all their resources, surveillance, federal prosecutors, informants, wiretaps,
Speaker 2: and sooner or later they're gonna start picking off members
Speaker 2: of the organization and somebody's gonna be in a situation
Speaker 2: where he realizes Uncle Sam is his doue best friend
Speaker 2: and he's gonna testify, you know, and then there's an
Speaker 2: apparatus to the witness Protection program to make sure if
Speaker 2: that person does testify and this organization has the ability
Speaker 2: to you know, kill them, that they're going to make
Speaker 2: sure that, you know, he doesn't get killed so he
Speaker 2: can complete his testimony and send a message to the
Speaker 2: other criminal criminals out there that if you cooperate with
Speaker 2: the US govement, we can we can keep you safe,
Speaker 2: we can make sure you testify and that you can live,
Speaker 2: you know, for the rest of your life.
Speaker 4: Now, Ron in your research, how was it that Frank
Speaker 4: Matthews sort of flew under the radar?
Speaker 6: Yet?
Speaker 4: As Lewis has spoken that he was involved in twenty
Speaker 4: one states. He was everywhere. He was in all the
Speaker 4: major centers. Baltimore, he was in Philly, he was in
Speaker 4: he was everywhere. And he made contacts in Detroit even
Speaker 4: and obviously this coup where he goes down to Venezuela
Speaker 4: and deals directly and bypassing the Italians. How is it
Speaker 4: that he flew under the radar for quite a while though?
Speaker 6: How is that?
Speaker 4: How did that happen?
Speaker 6: Well, simply because he was black. At that time, there
Speaker 6: were no big African American drug dealers. Now, the drug
Speaker 6: trade was changing at the time, you know, we had
Speaker 6: the French Connection, you remember the famous movie The French Connection,
Speaker 6: and law enforcement was having great success. They were dismantling
Speaker 6: this monopoly. It was one of the great monopolies in history.
Speaker 6: The French Connection had ninety five percent of the heroin
Speaker 6: trade at its peak on that but it was being dismantled.
Speaker 6: But which opened up opportunities, you know for minorities like
Speaker 6: black drug dealers. But you know, law enforcements always a
Speaker 6: littid behind, They a little bit behind the trend, and
Speaker 6: they didn't really pick up on that. And it was
Speaker 6: really luck because the detective was living in the same
Speaker 6: apartment complex as Frank, and when they discovered, you know,
Speaker 6: that Frank was involved with it, they really didn't believe
Speaker 6: it at first, you know, because they couldn't see how
Speaker 6: this African American drug dealer can become so big with
Speaker 6: you know, first of all, given the nature of the
Speaker 6: drug trade, and second at all without them knowing anything about.
Speaker 4: Him, right, and with the the same questions for you, lou,
Speaker 4: why do you think that he really I mean, other
Speaker 4: black drug dealers, heroin dealers in New York and other
Speaker 4: cities were recognized. Why do you think that Frank Matthews.
Speaker 4: What was it about his his career that made it
Speaker 4: that he flew under the radar for a little bit
Speaker 4: of time.
Speaker 2: Well, I think you have to look at the strategy
Speaker 2: of the federal government when it comes to law enforcement.
Speaker 2: These are investigative agencies. These are not agencies that see somebody,
Speaker 2: you know, make a move that they think may be
Speaker 2: suspicious and they stop them and they question them, so,
Speaker 2: you know, information would come across that he's involved in
Speaker 2: the drug trade, but the United States government is going
Speaker 2: to want to be able to prove it, and they
Speaker 2: want to be able to prove to a jury because
Speaker 2: a lot of these guys are going to trial during
Speaker 2: those times that to a New York jury that this
Speaker 2: guy is a major guy. This is not just a
Speaker 2: one chance, a one move deal. And so to do that,
Speaker 2: it's going to take time. It's going to take you know,
Speaker 2: being able to have enough evidence to convince a federal
Speaker 2: judge to get a wiretap for a certain phone that's
Speaker 2: only going to be admissible for thirty days, and you
Speaker 2: have to continue for another thirty days, but you have
Speaker 2: to convince the court that he's still discussing narcotics business
Speaker 2: over that telephone. You're gonna have to do the physical surveillance,
Speaker 2: follow people and hopefully not be observed during the course
Speaker 2: of the investigation. You may be able to arrest a
Speaker 2: member of the investigation and take them out of circulation
Speaker 2: for a while, thoroughly debrief them and get their life story,
Speaker 2: and try to orroberate what they're saying through testimony in
Speaker 2: the grand jury. So there's a lot of work being
Speaker 2: done based on what people think is going on and
Speaker 2: to be able to prove it, and that's when the
Speaker 2: evidence comes into court. But generally speaking, once those handcuffs
Speaker 2: go on at the federal level, this is a tight case.
Speaker 2: The case can't get any tighter because you've been working
Speaker 2: with a federal prosecutor all throughout those six months, those
Speaker 2: eight months, you've been working with law enforcement counterparts in
Speaker 2: daight throughout the country and overseas. I mean, da has
Speaker 2: a strong overseas program in the Caribbean and Europe and
Speaker 2: Southeast Asia, you know, sixty somewhat countries where they have
Speaker 2: agents stationed working with the police on narcotic matters in
Speaker 2: all these countries. So taking all that information to go
Speaker 2: back to the source countries, to the transhipment countries, to
Speaker 2: the distribution organizations in the US. So it's a strong
Speaker 2: prosecutable case that these guys decided to go to trial,
Speaker 2: that that jewelry will look at the government's evidence and say,
Speaker 2: these guys are in the business. You know, let's let's
Speaker 2: let's vote guilty. And that just takes some time.
Speaker 4: If it takes some time, Ron, do you think that
Speaker 4: Frank Matthews, though, did benefit somewhat or to a great
Speaker 4: degree from not having so many enemies. Basically throughout your research,
Speaker 4: it seems like this guy was a guy that had
Speaker 4: a lot of friends, a lot of people who wouldn't
Speaker 4: speak against him, a lot of people would keep his secrets.
Speaker 4: He threw some money around, he was nice to a
Speaker 4: lot of people. He grew up in Durham, and that
Speaker 4: bond did even gave money towards his bail. These some
Speaker 4: of these people, do you think because he didn't make
Speaker 4: so many enemies and he was a friendly guy and
Speaker 4: very you know, he's able to get things done and
Speaker 4: meet people, that maybe that's why he flew under the
Speaker 4: radar a little bit.
Speaker 6: Well, you know, he did have enemies because he did
Speaker 6: go did have problems in Philadelphia, as I described in
Speaker 6: the book, But he didn't make a lot of friends
Speaker 6: because of his personality, you know, people that worked with him,
Speaker 6: his homeboys and all that. And yes, I think that
Speaker 6: a lot of them want to see Frank get away,
Speaker 6: you know, because of who he was, a lot of
Speaker 6: people you know, you know, claimed they met him because
Speaker 6: they want to be part of the legend. I don't
Speaker 6: think they necessarily saw him or had any contact with
Speaker 6: him on that And he is a legend, you know,
Speaker 6: he is a legend within the criminal community. And I
Speaker 6: think that if he is alive, that's probably helped him.
Speaker 6: Like I said, there were absolutely no informants, no real informants.
Speaker 6: You know, there were you know, some people, but they
Speaker 6: were quickly dismissed.
Speaker 4: Now, well, Louke, we're almost near the end of our
Speaker 4: program as far as the DEEA is involved, Like you
Speaker 4: had said, how how much money they spent or how
Speaker 4: involved they were in trying to solve this case and
Speaker 4: trying to track down Frank Matthews. So in terms of
Speaker 4: the DEA, I don't know if they sit around and say, oh,
Speaker 4: here's the ones that got away. Is this the kind
Speaker 4: of case and the kind of character that guys might
Speaker 4: sit around and say, hey, here's a guy that's very interesting.
Speaker 4: Never did find out? Is that something that happens to
Speaker 4: some degree.
Speaker 2: I mean, there's a the case file of the Frank
Speaker 2: Matthews investigation is still an open file. So there's an
Speaker 2: agent assigned to that investigation to report on attempts to
Speaker 2: try to locate him. But you know, it's been many
Speaker 2: many years and and and Frank Matthews has beeny clips
Speaker 2: by a whole host of other major drug dealers and organizations.
Speaker 2: So the the effort is nowhere near, you know, like
Speaker 2: it was back in the seventies. But that file is
Speaker 2: still open. Even the witnesses, most of them have retired
Speaker 2: a long time ago from DEA. And I'm talking about
Speaker 2: the agent, witnesses, the police officer, the witnesses, the prosecutors.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's sort of old news. But at the
Speaker 2: same time, the case is still active. And to the
Speaker 2: extent that if he was located tonight and somebody arrested him,
Speaker 2: you know, they'd be a hard look at that case
Speaker 2: file and figure out what can we prove, you know,
Speaker 2: who's around you know, should we offer this guy a
Speaker 2: plea deal, figure out some way to dispose of the case.
Speaker 2: But it would, it would. It's never going to be
Speaker 2: a case where people will say just dismiss it. You know,
Speaker 2: we'll never find this guy because of the length of
Speaker 2: time that that's not gonna happen. You know, he was
Speaker 2: a major drug dealer, sold a lot of heroin and cocaine,
Speaker 2: and there was a leader of the organization and DEA
Speaker 2: by nature is set up to investigate, identify, rather an
Speaker 2: investigate and arrest the leaders of organization, so he's he'll
Speaker 2: always be on the radar for DEA.
Speaker 4: Well, that's great, it's very interesting I guess we're just
Speaker 4: going to wrap up now. I want to thank you
Speaker 4: very much, gentlemen, you Lewis for coming on the program. Lou,
Speaker 4: thank you very much for coming on and adding this
Speaker 4: very very unique perspective, very very interesting to hear about
Speaker 4: the origins of the DEA and and your obligation to
Speaker 4: try to do something and try to find Frank Matthews
Speaker 4: and the mystery that still is out there. And thank
Speaker 4: you very much Ron as well, and for arranging to
Speaker 4: have Lou come on the program and talk from again
Speaker 4: this unique perspective. Thank you very much, Ron, thank you,
Speaker 4: thank you.
Speaker 2: Thank you Dan. It's always a pleasure to be on
Speaker 2: the rating with my good friend Ron.
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you very much.
Speaker 6: Always good to be on it. Always good to be
Speaker 6: on with Lou. Thank you very much.
Speaker 2: Probably probably tell me the name of your book, so
Speaker 2: I'm sure you oh.
Speaker 6: Yeah, right, The Red Black Caesar, uh uh, The Rise
Speaker 6: and Disappearance of Frank Matthews, Kingpin and you can go
Speaker 6: to Strategic Media Books dot com. There's also a website
Speaker 6: Frank Matthews book dot com and of course Amazon and
Speaker 6: bookstores and also.
Speaker 4: Put a plug in for your your radio program. You
Speaker 4: find radio program that you oh yeah, thank you.
Speaker 6: Artists right, we have we have I have a radio
Speaker 6: show called crime Beat, and you go to the Artists
Speaker 6: First Radio network Artists First dot com. Tomorrow we have
Speaker 6: a a gentleman that's going to be talking about the
Speaker 6: surveillance system UH in America and some of the issues
Speaker 6: that have been raised about the privacy and UH and
Speaker 6: rights of citizens. So it's on eight o'clock every Thursday,
Speaker 6: eight pm.
Speaker 2: And Dan, if I could, I'd just like to say
Speaker 2: happy anniversary, fortieth anniversary to the men and women the
Speaker 2: present informer of DEA who work under the radar but
Speaker 2: do a very difficult job in law enforcement investigating dangerous
Speaker 2: drug dealers and making our country safe. Thank you.
Speaker 4: I want to thank you very much, gentlemen, and for
Speaker 4: a great interview, and thanks very much for another great book,
Speaker 4: Ron Black Caesar, great thank you, great story, and thank
Speaker 4: you both for coming on and you guys have a
Speaker 4: great evening and good thank you, thank you, Bye bye
Speaker 4: bye