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<v Speaker 1>Hi, everybody, Welcome to this spooky Halloween episode of Humming

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<v Speaker 1>Out Pod. I am your spooky host, Lauren.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm so excited about this episode.

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<v Speaker 1>I wanted to do a special episode because I realized that,

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<v Speaker 1>so Halloween's on a Thursday this year. If you're listening

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<v Speaker 1>to this when it comes.

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<v Speaker 2>Out, it is eve of Halloween.

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<v Speaker 1>I don't know if that's a thing, but yeah, it's

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<v Speaker 1>a day before Halloween. And I was like, I should

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<v Speaker 1>do a thematic episode. But before we jump into it, Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm also doing a thematic queer root shout out.

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<v Speaker 2>Shout out to you if your queer root.

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<v Speaker 1>Is the nineteen ninety five live action Casper movie.

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<v Speaker 3>This is a big one for some people because it's

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<v Speaker 3>fifteen year old Christina Ricci and seventeen year old Devin's

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<v Speaker 3>soa not the voice of Casper, but the visual manifestation

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<v Speaker 3>of Casper.

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<v Speaker 1>So many young folks had clear awakenings seeing this movie.

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<v Speaker 1>Also many women who later went on to realize that

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<v Speaker 1>they were actually lesbian's. Initially young Devin Saul. We've had

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<v Speaker 1>this discussion on the podcast many times. But just like

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<v Speaker 1>young Leo DiCaprio and many others of that ILK is

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<v Speaker 1>like a very good starter boy crush if you then

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<v Speaker 1>eventually realize like, oh that wasn't I see what that was?

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<v Speaker 2>So yeah, shout out to you.

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<v Speaker 1>If either Baby Christiana, reach your Baby Devin SAA and

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<v Speaker 1>Casper stirred some queer ghostly feet or the ghost I

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<v Speaker 1>don't want to judge. Maybe you thought Cgi Casper was hot.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Anyway, check out the movie Casper.

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<v Speaker 4>Yo.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, so this is like half Reducs episode but not really.

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<v Speaker 2>But what I mean is that I have.

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<v Speaker 1>Two guests today, one of whom has previously been on

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast. I am here with BJ and Harmony Colangelo.

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<v Speaker 2>Aka the Wives Colangelo. Hi, Welcome to both of you.

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<v Speaker 4>Hello, Hi, this.

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<v Speaker 2>Is so thrilling.

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<v Speaker 1>So for those who maybe are newer to the podcast

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<v Speaker 1>or maybe you don't listen to every single episode, BJ

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<v Speaker 1>was on all the way back in March of twenty

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two. It's episode one ninety one. BJ tells her

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<v Speaker 1>coming out story and we I honestly, if you haven't

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<v Speaker 1>heard that episode, pause this one.

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<v Speaker 2>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>Go back listen to the first like ten to fifteen

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<v Speaker 1>minutes of bj solo episode because she gives such a

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<v Speaker 1>great primer on queer horror and how queerness and the

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<v Speaker 1>horror genre are just like intrinsically linked. It goes all

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<v Speaker 1>the way back like to like Dracula, Mary Shelley, bram Stalker,

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<v Speaker 1>like all of this stuff. It was such an interesting

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<v Speaker 1>conversation and as I mentioned during that episode, I am

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<v Speaker 1>a huge scaredy cat. I absolutely cannot watch scary movies,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I've missed out on a huge chunk of

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<v Speaker 1>like queerness, I feel like because I can't see any

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<v Speaker 1>of the movies that people are talking about, and especially

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<v Speaker 1>in recent years, there have been.

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<v Speaker 2>Like so many.

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<v Speaker 1>I do always watch the compilations that people make of

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<v Speaker 1>like the smooching moments, so like I cannot see Haunting

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<v Speaker 1>a Fly and Manner, but I've seen all of the kissing.

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<v Speaker 2>Scenes in it.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you YouTubers who do that for people like me.

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<v Speaker 2>But so, so that's BJ and then Harmony.

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<v Speaker 1>You get mentioned a lot in that episode because you

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<v Speaker 1>two are in surprise.

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<v Speaker 5>She talks about me all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, yes, yes, it's very true.

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<v Speaker 1>But so you're both podcasters, you're writers, you both do

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<v Speaker 1>film theory, you are the co of This ends a

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<v Speaker 1>prom which we will plug at the end, and You're

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<v Speaker 1>also the co writers of sleep Away Camp from Die

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<v Speaker 1>Die Books.

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<v Speaker 2>So y'all really know your queer horror.

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<v Speaker 1>And I wanted to have you both on to talk about, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>some movies that you enjoy, just like just get us

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<v Speaker 1>in the mood for Halloween. And so I always say,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, how did I identify? That's kind of my catchphrase,

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<v Speaker 1>b J. The last time you were on this is

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<v Speaker 1>like two and a half years ago, we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>you were using the word lesbian, but we talked about

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<v Speaker 1>your kind of storied history with lesbian and like, how yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>so is that does that still feel true for you

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<v Speaker 1>as an identifier?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh?

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, yep, it definitely still is an identifier. If anything,

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<v Speaker 4>I've only gotten more aggressive about it because as the

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<v Speaker 4>unfortunate reality of transphobia just you know, getting a little

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<v Speaker 4>kickstart thanks to the political discourse, I've gotten more aggressive

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<v Speaker 4>about affirming that I am a lesbian and if anyone

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<v Speaker 4>has a problem with that, they can uh suck it.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, so you heard that here, problem that suck

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<v Speaker 1>at Yeah, it's true, even though it's like margin of

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<v Speaker 1>twenty twenty two doesn't sound like that long ago, but

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<v Speaker 1>it's like, oh yeah, things have gotten worse since then,

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<v Speaker 1>just in general.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, cool, cool, glad, we're moving in a positive reaction.

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<v Speaker 1>You also mentioned self described as a green haired swamp

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<v Speaker 1>queen goddess.

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<v Speaker 2>Does this still feel true? Hair is still green?

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<v Speaker 4>Okay to chest, still swampy, still a goddess, and so harmony.

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<v Speaker 1>Your hair is not green, but it is a different color,

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<v Speaker 1>not found in nature.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, but blue is found in nature. It's just I

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<v Speaker 5>think the rarest color found in nature, and certainly it

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<v Speaker 5>is not a hair color. I'm the kind of blue

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<v Speaker 5>hair that makes in cells tend to stereotype people be like,

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<v Speaker 5>h those blue haired libs.

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<v Speaker 2>That is so true.

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<v Speaker 1>That has become the like catch all phrase they do

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<v Speaker 1>say blue hair.

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<v Speaker 2>Look at that. I love that.

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<v Speaker 5>Confront them, hat on, I did it before it was cool.

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<v Speaker 1>Reclaim it well, harmony, Other other than blue hair, how

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<v Speaker 1>do you identify Since we didn't get to hear that

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<v Speaker 1>back in March of twenty two.

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<v Speaker 5>I'm a trans woman. Bisexuality is a like to fuck

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<v Speaker 5>my wife. And that's about it. We keep it vague.

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<v Speaker 2>There's nothing to add to that.

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<v Speaker 1>That's beautiful, perfect, okay, okay, so we are going to

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<v Speaker 1>jump right into this episode, and it's sort of going

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<v Speaker 1>to be like very free flowy format wise, but yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>I emailed Bjay to be like, do you both want

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<v Speaker 1>to come on and talk queer horror? Because I can't,

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<v Speaker 1>and so I'd love for you just to tell me

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<v Speaker 1>about yeah, like specific movies or your or what drew

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<v Speaker 1>you both to it, your relationship to it, just like

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<v Speaker 1>any horror stuff. What does someone like me, a queer

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<v Speaker 1>person who is very entrenched in like queer culture but

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<v Speaker 1>not at all entrenched in queer horror, Like, where do

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<v Speaker 1>I start?

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<v Speaker 2>What do I need to know?

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<v Speaker 1>What do I do for this current Halloween that is approaching?

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<v Speaker 5>I mean, quite frankly, I think there's no better time

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<v Speaker 5>to get into queer horror than now, because there's never

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<v Speaker 5>been more of it than this.

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<v Speaker 1>Why I have felt that so strongly lately, And it's

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<v Speaker 1>like I never used to feel that sort of on

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<v Speaker 1>the outside. It was like, yeah, I'd never seen Jennifer's body,

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<v Speaker 1>which was like every time I say that, people are like, ooh,

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<v Speaker 1>of you never And I'm like, I've watched the kissing

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<v Speaker 1>scene on YouTube, like I've seen the important part, but

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<v Speaker 1>in the most like I don't know even just past

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<v Speaker 1>five years, there has suddenly been so much. And I

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<v Speaker 1>think around the time of Body's Body's Bodies was when

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<v Speaker 1>I started to really feel like.

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<v Speaker 2>Kind of left out of this whole thing.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I saw the TV glow most recently, I was.

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<v Speaker 2>Like, I'm really I'm missing.

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<v Speaker 1>Out on discourse like so, so yeah, it feels.

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<v Speaker 5>Like discourse there was with that one.

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<v Speaker 1>Hell yeah, I read a Wikipedia synopsis of that movie,

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<v Speaker 1>which is what I sometimes do with horror movies. I'll

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<v Speaker 1>read the full Wikipedia entry to try to yeah, because

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<v Speaker 1>I can't watch them, but I want to know what

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<v Speaker 1>people are talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's for that one.

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<v Speaker 4>But yeah, I would saying I think the basics that

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<v Speaker 4>you need to know when it comes to queer horror is,

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<v Speaker 4>like I said on my first go round, the absolute

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<v Speaker 4>building blocks and foundational texts of the genre are either

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<v Speaker 4>made by queer people or they are queer stories. We

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<v Speaker 4>sort of talked about like Bram Stoker and Mary Shelley,

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<v Speaker 4>all of these like old Gothic writers, but we didn't

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<v Speaker 4>talk as much about how when you look at like

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<v Speaker 4>the very very early films, usually that's the universal monster movies.

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<v Speaker 4>That's sort of where every horror film branches off from

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<v Speaker 4>like you can trace every horror movie, doesn't matter how weird,

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<v Speaker 4>how interesting, how creative and artistic it's coming out today,

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<v Speaker 4>you can trace all of them back to one of

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<v Speaker 4>the universal monster movies in some way, shape or form.

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<v Speaker 4>And a lot of those movies were directed by people

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<v Speaker 4>who either were openly gay, but the Hayes Code was

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<v Speaker 4>going on, so they couldn't actually tell gay stories, so

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<v Speaker 4>instead they would hide gay stories in monster texts. And

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<v Speaker 4>the Hayes Code also required that if there was like

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<v Speaker 4>a monster or you know, something that was taboo, that

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<v Speaker 4>they had to be punished for it, because we love censorship.

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<v Speaker 4>But that meant that a lot of these directors got

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<v Speaker 4>very very creative in how they were coding things, how

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<v Speaker 4>they were slipping things in subtextually. So the history of

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<v Speaker 4>queerness and horror is often the history of queerness as

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<v Speaker 4>the monstrous and people embracing the monstrous as well. If

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<v Speaker 4>society's gonna see me in this way, then I'm gonna

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<v Speaker 4>embrace it, and I'm gonna ruin all of your lives.

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<v Speaker 4>And there's something very delicious and fun about that that is,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, very exciting. Like I think I talked about

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<v Speaker 4>on the last one like you look like lesbian vampire

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<v Speaker 4>movies from the nineteen seventies, and everyone's like in a

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<v Speaker 4>castle with gorgeous cloria, they're sexy, and two right, like,

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<v Speaker 4>how am I supposed to see myself as the villain here?

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<v Speaker 4>This is aspirational as far as I'm concerned. Yes, yes,

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<v Speaker 4>but the influence of queer creators and horror has never

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<v Speaker 4>gone away. It has been consistent, even if it's not

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<v Speaker 4>always on Front Street. The easiest people to point to,

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<v Speaker 4>I think now for like contemporary horror is there's two

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<v Speaker 4>like main main figures here, the first one being Kevin Williamson,

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<v Speaker 4>who you're if you're a scaredy cat. He created Dawson's Creek,

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<v Speaker 4>You're welcome. But he's also the writer of movies like

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<v Speaker 4>The Faculty and Teaching Missus Tingle and I Know What

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<v Speaker 4>You Did Last Summer and most importantly Scream. And he

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<v Speaker 4>is an out gay man, has been an out gay

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<v Speaker 4>man forever. So you look at like the nineties horor cycle,

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<v Speaker 4>everything was either emulating or in response to movies Kevin

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<v Speaker 4>Williamson made, so like this gay man is controlling the

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<v Speaker 4>entire genre. And then the other really big one here

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<v Speaker 4>is Don Mancini. Dun uh daddy, daddy do.

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<v Speaker 2>I've never heard of those, so.

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<v Speaker 5>You have heard of his work because Don's known for

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<v Speaker 5>one thing.

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<v Speaker 4>So most slasher franchises will have like a really great

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<v Speaker 4>outing at first, and then the subsequent sequels will turn

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<v Speaker 4>into a hot ass mess. And it's usually because new.

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<v Speaker 5>Writer, single one of them is written to be the

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<v Speaker 5>last one, and then a new writer has to come

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<v Speaker 5>along and a new director comes along and they go

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<v Speaker 5>fuck like, they blew him up? How do I bring

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<v Speaker 5>him back?

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<v Speaker 2>Oh? Gotcha? Okay, okay, cool cool cool? Yes. So it's

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<v Speaker 2>like the Jason and.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, yes, Jason, Michael Myers all of this. So it'll

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<v Speaker 4>be a new writer, a new director, new cast, and

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<v Speaker 4>it's just they become a mess. They're delightful messes, but

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<v Speaker 4>they become a mess. There's one major of like the

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<v Speaker 4>major major horror franchises where that doesn't happen, and it's

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<v Speaker 4>Child's Play or the Chucky franchise, which has which has

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<v Speaker 4>had Don Mancini a part of it since the very beginning.

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<v Speaker 4>So all seven Chucky movies were excluding the remake that's

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<v Speaker 4>not that's its own thing, but all seven of the

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<v Speaker 4>Chucky movies and all three seasons of the Chucky series

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<v Speaker 4>are written or show run by Don Mancini, so he

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<v Speaker 4>has had a control of this narrative the entire time,

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<v Speaker 4>and as time has gone on, Don Mancini has made

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<v Speaker 4>the series gayer and gayer and gayer. Yeah, like Eat

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<v Speaker 4>of Chucky, it has a non binary character.

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<v Speaker 5>So like, that's cool. In the TV show, he does

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<v Speaker 5>a boundary union with the cast. It gets like, Chucky

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<v Speaker 5>is a guy who's just like, I've got a non

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<v Speaker 5>binary kid. I'm not a monster. I love my kid.

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<v Speaker 5>And it's like, Chucky, You're a piece of shit. Charles

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<v Speaker 5>Lee raised an asshole and yet he still loves his kid.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh well, that reminds me of when I watched the

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<v Speaker 1>movie Vice and Dick Cheney has the scene and I.

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<v Speaker 2>Was like, god, damn it.

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<v Speaker 1>Dick Cheney was a good father to his lesson and daughter. Wait,

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<v Speaker 1>so and Jennifer Tilly, Wait is it Jennifer or Meg?

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<v Speaker 2>It's Jennifer?

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<v Speaker 5>Oh my god, Meg in the show.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh I'm glad she's working.

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<v Speaker 2>You never seen.

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<v Speaker 5>Universe is wide and bountiful.

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<v Speaker 1>Jennifer Tilly's been in since the beginning, Is that right?

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<v Speaker 2>Is she old school Chucky.

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<v Speaker 5>She's been here since Bride of Chucky, where she is

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<v Speaker 5>the titular ride of Chucky. She is she plays Tiffany.

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<v Speaker 1>And so did and Gina Gershan like came on the

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<v Speaker 1>show as Sean Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah joey pants. And is the guy what is his name?

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<v Speaker 2>Don don vancy? Is he queer?

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<v Speaker 5>Like?

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<v Speaker 1>What's okay?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay? So he okay?

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<v Speaker 1>So he's in the grand tradition of And that's really

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<v Speaker 1>interesting because so when did the Chucky franchise start?

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<v Speaker 2>Is it early two thousands?

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<v Speaker 4>Is a late nineties?

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<v Speaker 2>Like eight Holy crap? So this guy has lived through watching.

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<v Speaker 1>Queerness like become like even trendy unpopular, Like, so what

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<v Speaker 1>a cool opportunity for an hour queer man to get to.

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<v Speaker 2>Like do stuff in his movie? Was it?

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<v Speaker 1>So it's like it used to be subverted maybe in

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<v Speaker 1>the movies and now is like at the fourth it

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<v Speaker 1>was a little bit.

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<v Speaker 4>More subtle in the in the early film. So, like,

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<v Speaker 4>the Chucky franchise is sort of in like four categories.

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<v Speaker 4>There's the first three movies, which are kind of like

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<v Speaker 4>traditional slasher movies, uh, you know, from the eighties and

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<v Speaker 4>early nineties. Then you have Bride and Seed, which is

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<v Speaker 4>where they get really campy and like the queerness definitely

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<v Speaker 4>gets put on front street. Like there's a gay character

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<v Speaker 4>in Bride of Chucky that was kind of unheard of.

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<v Speaker 4>Alexis Arquette is in Bride of Chucky, then you bless

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<v Speaker 4>her rip. Then you get to Seed of Chucky, where

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<v Speaker 4>you're introduced to Chucky and Tiffany's child, who in that

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<v Speaker 4>movie is going by Glenn and Glenda, but it's they them.

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<v Speaker 4>Then you get to the Curse and Cult of Chucky movies,

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<v Speaker 4>which is sort of like a return to form in

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<v Speaker 4>the late twentys early twenty tens. And then you get

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<v Speaker 4>the sci fi series, which is putting together all three

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<v Speaker 4>of those eras of Chucky into one thing and to

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<v Speaker 4>your point where you're like, it's really cool that this

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<v Speaker 4>out gay man has gotten to see, you know, queerness

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<v Speaker 4>become trendy by the time we get to the series.

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<v Speaker 4>The lead character in it is an out gay teenager

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<v Speaker 4>who comes across the Chucky doll and so the whole

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<v Speaker 4>series is centered around a gay teenager. So he went

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<v Speaker 4>from having to like sneak in his little queerness, you know,

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<v Speaker 4>subtextually at the early part of the franchise to now

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<v Speaker 4>this is the lead role, like the lead romance in

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<v Speaker 4>the series are two young gay boys.

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<v Speaker 2>My god, and that's over like decades.

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<v Speaker 1>That's really cool because like I didn't know, like what

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<v Speaker 1>you were saying about how most of these franchises that

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<v Speaker 1>exist for so long, it's like a full different you know, writer,

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<v Speaker 1>director team like et cetera, et cetera. But so for

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<v Speaker 1>one person to get to go on that journey, that's like,

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<v Speaker 1>good for this guy. I just found out this person exists,

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<v Speaker 1>and now I'm like, oh, good for done. That's really

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<v Speaker 1>a love boy.

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<v Speaker 2>That's incredible.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, Yeah, well that is something I'd love to ask

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<v Speaker 1>about because it's like.

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<v Speaker 2>This transition from queer.

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<v Speaker 1>Characters in Horror being the I feel like first they

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<v Speaker 1>were like the straight up, like aligned villains, like they

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<v Speaker 1>are bad, and then they start to become the cooler,

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<v Speaker 1>sexy villains, which is like when.

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<v Speaker 2>You were talking about with the lesbian vampires and stuff.

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<v Speaker 1>But like, so now we've moved into like queer people

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<v Speaker 1>being like the protagonists, like the heroes.

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<v Speaker 2>So what's that what been like?

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<v Speaker 1>Because it's like our our queer characters still are like

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<v Speaker 1>straight people the villains now or is everybody queer? Like

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<v Speaker 1>what how did that transition from like villain a protagonist?

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<v Speaker 5>Like, well, it's always been like it's been a reflection

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<v Speaker 5>of like how society views queer people over time. Time

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<v Speaker 5>you get to the seventies with the you know, disillusion

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<v Speaker 5>of the Hayes code, that's when stuff got Like seventies

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<v Speaker 5>directors were just on something and it was usually cocaine,

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<v Speaker 5>and they just went balls to the wall with every

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<v Speaker 5>choice they ever made. Everything became the most of everything,

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<v Speaker 5>and it's maybe the most dynamic and interesting decade for cinema.

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<v Speaker 5>But that's where you started to get like the less

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<v Speaker 5>in vampire movies of the seventies. That's where you started

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<v Speaker 5>to get like the Hammer horror films, where like vampires

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<v Speaker 5>were coming back after being kind of sidelined for a

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<v Speaker 5>long time. You know, you had your Abbitt and Castello

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<v Speaker 5>met the universal monsters, and then Hammer brought back all

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<v Speaker 5>of the monsters in new violent, neon blood sexy ways.

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<v Speaker 5>But by the time you get to the eighties, things

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<v Speaker 5>have to kind of go underground again because of the

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<v Speaker 5>AIDS epidemic, So then stuff becomes coded again, and then

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<v Speaker 5>the nineties is kind of the runoff of that, it's

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<v Speaker 5>very homophobic, and then by the time you start to

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<v Speaker 5>get out of the two thousands, you get to see

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<v Speaker 5>more consistent queer characters getting to be the heroes, because

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<v Speaker 5>that's where we have finally come full circle. And normally

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<v Speaker 5>you get the response of like the nineties and the

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<v Speaker 5>two thousands being extremely homophobic in the mainstream, and horror

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<v Speaker 5>has never really been the mainstream, but it does tend

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<v Speaker 5>to be appreciated in select instances by the mainstream. I

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<v Speaker 5>don't think you're gonna get to the point where we're

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<v Speaker 5>ever going to cycle back to movies being as blatantly

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<v Speaker 5>homophobic as they were during that era, despite being what

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<v Speaker 5>it is now. So yeah, I mean probably maybe the

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<v Speaker 5>next big change will be we'll go back to getting

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<v Speaker 5>more gay monsters, which I'd be fine with as long

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<v Speaker 5>as you're doing something right.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I'm wondering, because it's like, on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 1>like it's so great that we have queer protagonists, but

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<v Speaker 1>on the other end, we talked PJ in your first

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<v Speaker 1>episode about how like villains are always like coolers.

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<v Speaker 2>What you kind of don't want to lose that ass totally.

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<v Speaker 5>Oh there was the period of like the model Minority,

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<v Speaker 5>where gay people weren't allowed to be interesting characters and

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<v Speaker 5>the queer monsters the best. And it's also like the

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<v Speaker 5>best tool for telling queer stories, I think, because queerness

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<v Speaker 5>exists in a hetero world and therefore you're an outsider,

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<v Speaker 5>and in many cases that would make you monstrous. So

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<v Speaker 5>that is a far more compelling story than just being

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<v Speaker 5>like everyone gets along, there's no monster.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, okay, god it is.

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<v Speaker 6>It's so complicated, and like with the Scream franchise, because

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<v Speaker 6>this is one where i've actually I mean I saw

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<v Speaker 6>all the originals like that I could handle for whatever reason,

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<v Speaker 6>because it was like.

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<v Speaker 1>Funny and silly and I don't know if campy is

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<v Speaker 1>the right word, but like I did see all the

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<v Speaker 1>original what was it like four or something, but I

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<v Speaker 1>haven't seen any of the new ones, and my memory

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<v Speaker 1>of the original Scream movies, I don't remember any overt clearness.

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<v Speaker 1>And then I just not pick up my stuff about one. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>sure's you neither revisit that one. Yeah, that's like a

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<v Speaker 1>subtle like these guys are really good friends kind of

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<v Speaker 1>vibe this, Okay.

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<v Speaker 4>It is very much that sort of relationship. There's actually

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<v Speaker 4>a very famous scene in Scream After you know, spoiler

387
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<v Speaker 4>alert for a very old movie that where you know,

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<v Speaker 4>Billy and st so Matthew Lillard and Skeet Ulrich are

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<v Speaker 4>like tormenting Nev Campbell's Sydney and you have Matthew Lillard

390
00:21:13.920 --> 00:21:17.359
<v Speaker 4>like hanging on the shoulder of Skeet Ulrich. That image

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00:21:17.400 --> 00:21:19.920
<v Speaker 4>gets used a lot as like, oh, look at they're

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<v Speaker 4>just boys. They're just friends. They're just guys being friends.

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<v Speaker 4>And it is almost identical to a shot in my

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<v Speaker 4>favorite movie of all time, nineteen eighty five's Fright Night,

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00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:34.000
<v Speaker 4>which is a super gay vampire movie with Chris Randan,

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00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:37.559
<v Speaker 4>where there is a like, again almost an identical scene

397
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<v Speaker 4>where Chris Irannon is hanging over the shoulder of his

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<v Speaker 4>quote unquote Renfield type is familiar Billy, and you're just like, oh,

399
00:21:46.480 --> 00:21:48.400
<v Speaker 4>I see this, I see what happened here.

400
00:21:49.160 --> 00:21:51.000
<v Speaker 1>That's like a direct homage.

401
00:21:51.599 --> 00:21:53.960
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, Like it's exactly the same thing. And like

402
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:58.359
<v Speaker 4>there's also something very inherently gay just about Dracula and

403
00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:02.519
<v Speaker 4>Renfield in general, because Downfield is his you know, his

404
00:22:02.519 --> 00:22:03.160
<v Speaker 4>his little.

405
00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:06.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, let's call it what it is.

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<v Speaker 4>Yeah, Okay, right, okay, And so a lot of those

407
00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:13.799
<v Speaker 4>things are just like trickled in throughout the genre. And

408
00:22:14.319 --> 00:22:16.119
<v Speaker 4>there's something I want to say, and this is a

409
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<v Speaker 4>very controversial take, but got to hear me on this.

410
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<v Speaker 4>So I assume you've heard of the barrier gaye trope

411
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:23.599
<v Speaker 4>or like you know that.

412
00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, yeah, the barrier gaze.

413
00:22:26.160 --> 00:22:29.160
<v Speaker 1>Can you really briefly like give an elevator not a pitch?

414
00:22:29.279 --> 00:22:34.119
<v Speaker 2>We don't description for those who familiar, right.

415
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.640
<v Speaker 4>Right, So the barrier gaye trope is basically a trend

416
00:22:37.720 --> 00:22:42.480
<v Speaker 4>in film and television where gay people die, usually to

417
00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:45.880
<v Speaker 4>push forward the narrative of either another gay person. We

418
00:22:45.920 --> 00:22:48.519
<v Speaker 4>have to torture one gay person by killing their lover,

419
00:22:49.039 --> 00:22:52.079
<v Speaker 4>or it's going to pay forward, yes I e. Buffy,

420
00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:55.240
<v Speaker 4>that's the like the most egregious example, or it's going

421
00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.440
<v Speaker 4>to push forth the narrative of like the well meaning

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00:22:57.480 --> 00:22:59.400
<v Speaker 4>straight ally of like oh no, my gay friend is

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<v Speaker 4>dead and now I have to act a certain way.

424
00:23:01.599 --> 00:23:05.039
<v Speaker 4>That trope is very real. It is very problematic. However,

425
00:23:05.319 --> 00:23:10.400
<v Speaker 4>Comma it does not apply to the horror genre because

426
00:23:10.480 --> 00:23:12.319
<v Speaker 4>death is the point in this genre.

427
00:23:12.680 --> 00:23:16.319
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, And that's a great point that I had

428
00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:16.960
<v Speaker 1>not thought of.

429
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:17.640
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah.

430
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:21.160
<v Speaker 4>So like Blind Manner, for example, that is one that

431
00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:22.880
<v Speaker 4>people point to all the time and they're like, oh,

432
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.079
<v Speaker 4>I love this series, but I hate that it fulfills

433
00:23:25.160 --> 00:23:27.480
<v Speaker 4>the barrier gaze trope, and it's like, this is a

434
00:23:27.559 --> 00:23:29.680
<v Speaker 4>movie about like, this is a series why people dying

435
00:23:29.720 --> 00:23:33.880
<v Speaker 4>and becoming ghosts. That's everyone is going to die and

436
00:23:33.920 --> 00:23:36.920
<v Speaker 4>become ghosts. That's the whole point. It doesn't become barrier

437
00:23:37.000 --> 00:23:40.240
<v Speaker 4>gaze just because these characters happen to be gay. When

438
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:43.359
<v Speaker 4>everyone's gonna die and become ghosts's like that's the point.

439
00:23:44.799 --> 00:23:47.960
<v Speaker 4>So that is where like queer horror discourse gets very frustrating.

440
00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:50.160
<v Speaker 4>This is where it gets into kind of like the

441
00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:54.160
<v Speaker 4>model minority situation of people getting upset when gay characters

442
00:23:54.200 --> 00:23:58.000
<v Speaker 4>die in horror movies, where it's like, Okay, I see

443
00:23:58.000 --> 00:24:00.799
<v Speaker 4>what you're saying. I get it. It does suck, however,

444
00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:02.079
<v Speaker 4>everyone dies.

445
00:24:02.920 --> 00:24:07.920
<v Speaker 5>Except like, I just want people to have a fighting chance.

446
00:24:10.519 --> 00:24:13.279
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, maybe let's not have them be the very first

447
00:24:13.400 --> 00:24:16.200
<v Speaker 1>person who like, let's know a little more about them

448
00:24:16.240 --> 00:24:16.720
<v Speaker 1>before they.

449
00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:19.960
<v Speaker 2>That's exactly.

450
00:24:19.960 --> 00:24:21.720
<v Speaker 1>Okay, that's such a good point because we did have

451
00:24:21.759 --> 00:24:24.039
<v Speaker 1>a really good discussion in your first episode Bay about

452
00:24:24.079 --> 00:24:28.720
<v Speaker 1>context and how we have lost almost all of that incurrent,

453
00:24:29.000 --> 00:24:32.799
<v Speaker 1>like especially online. So that's a really good point for

454
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:36.079
<v Speaker 1>the context of herr. It's like, we have to be

455
00:24:36.119 --> 00:24:40.519
<v Speaker 1>a little more lenient because, yeah, the landscape is death,

456
00:24:40.680 --> 00:24:44.799
<v Speaker 1>so let's not freak out one queer characters exist in

457
00:24:44.839 --> 00:24:45.440
<v Speaker 1>that landscape.

458
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:46.559
<v Speaker 2>Okay, that's a really good point.

459
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:49.319
<v Speaker 4>And like so there have been attempts to sort of,

460
00:24:49.799 --> 00:24:51.759
<v Speaker 4>you know, course correct what people view as like a

461
00:24:51.839 --> 00:24:55.160
<v Speaker 4>very problematic history, which I understand. But the one of

462
00:24:55.160 --> 00:24:56.920
<v Speaker 4>the examples I like to bring up to people is

463
00:24:57.480 --> 00:25:01.039
<v Speaker 4>a few years ago there was the slasher movie They

464
00:25:01.079 --> 00:25:06.079
<v Speaker 4>Slash Them, which is an almost exclusively queer cast written

465
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.480
<v Speaker 4>directed by John Logan, who is, you know, an Academy

466
00:25:08.519 --> 00:25:14.000
<v Speaker 4>Award winning openly gay screenwriter, and he very much approached

467
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:16.559
<v Speaker 4>this as like, I wanted to make a horror movie for,

468
00:25:17.400 --> 00:25:19.759
<v Speaker 4>you know, the kids that I was hanging out with

469
00:25:19.799 --> 00:25:22.039
<v Speaker 4>when I was young, like the young queer kids who

470
00:25:22.279 --> 00:25:24.640
<v Speaker 4>get to be heroes, get to be champions. And it's

471
00:25:24.640 --> 00:25:27.680
<v Speaker 4>like that is such a great idea. But there feels

472
00:25:27.680 --> 00:25:30.119
<v Speaker 4>like there are no stakes in that movie because I

473
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.319
<v Speaker 4>never actually believe any of these characters are in trouble

474
00:25:33.559 --> 00:25:35.920
<v Speaker 4>because I don't think this movie is going to kill

475
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.359
<v Speaker 4>any of the gay characters, and therefore I don't like

476
00:25:40.559 --> 00:25:43.839
<v Speaker 4>the threat. Then suddenly doesn't exist anymore. Like you can

477
00:25:43.880 --> 00:25:46.359
<v Speaker 4>care about characters, but you also need to care about

478
00:25:46.559 --> 00:25:48.279
<v Speaker 4>whether or not they live or die. And if I

479
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:51.279
<v Speaker 4>don't feel like there's a threat here, then it's harder

480
00:25:51.319 --> 00:25:51.839
<v Speaker 4>to connect.

481
00:25:52.039 --> 00:25:55.079
<v Speaker 5>I mean, in staid, there isn't in that movie, but yes,

482
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:57.240
<v Speaker 5>there literally isn't.

483
00:25:57.799 --> 00:25:59.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and so's tough threat.

484
00:26:00.200 --> 00:26:00.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

485
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:00.799
<v Speaker 5>Yeah.

486
00:26:00.920 --> 00:26:02.880
<v Speaker 4>So that's a movie that I like to point to

487
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:06.240
<v Speaker 4>in that Like when people say like, oh, I just

488
00:26:06.319 --> 00:26:08.039
<v Speaker 4>hate it when they all die or I hate this,

489
00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:09.880
<v Speaker 4>I hate that, it's like, okay, well here's a movie

490
00:26:10.240 --> 00:26:13.680
<v Speaker 4>where they don't die. And everyone hated this movie, and

491
00:26:13.759 --> 00:26:16.200
<v Speaker 4>like a lot of people bash the hell out of

492
00:26:16.200 --> 00:26:18.480
<v Speaker 4>that movie. And it's like, well, they gave you what

493
00:26:18.599 --> 00:26:21.960
<v Speaker 4>people have been asking for in the discourse minds uh,

494
00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:25.240
<v Speaker 4>he punched your car outs. They gave you what you

495
00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:27.359
<v Speaker 4>asked for, and this is why you don't like it.

496
00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:29.319
<v Speaker 4>You need to have those stakes, You need to have

497
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:31.839
<v Speaker 4>that investment in these characters. You need to be able

498
00:26:31.880 --> 00:26:35.200
<v Speaker 4>to to mourn these characters. There's there's a quote that

499
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:38.559
<v Speaker 4>Roger Ebert said an interview that gets used a lot,

500
00:26:38.599 --> 00:26:42.519
<v Speaker 4>which is that movies are machines that generate empathy. If

501
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:45.960
<v Speaker 4>you do not give people a reason to like invest

502
00:26:46.000 --> 00:26:48.799
<v Speaker 4>in these characters and care about them, then you're not

503
00:26:48.880 --> 00:26:51.640
<v Speaker 4>going to be able to generate empathy for them. And

504
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:55.200
<v Speaker 4>so horror, I think, is one of the great mediums

505
00:26:55.200 --> 00:26:58.200
<v Speaker 4>we have to teach people one how to empathize and

506
00:26:58.279 --> 00:27:00.759
<v Speaker 4>invest in the suffering of other people and want to

507
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:05.480
<v Speaker 4>see them survive. But it also gives you a playground, essentially,

508
00:27:05.839 --> 00:27:10.079
<v Speaker 4>to learn to navigate your own negative emotions because a

509
00:27:10.119 --> 00:27:12.920
<v Speaker 4>lot of people. You know, I'm not saying that everybody

510
00:27:12.960 --> 00:27:15.119
<v Speaker 4>needs to watch horror, of course not, but I do

511
00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.200
<v Speaker 4>think that because horror is such a wide genre, there

512
00:27:18.240 --> 00:27:21.200
<v Speaker 4>are movies for everyone. You just have to, you know,

513
00:27:21.640 --> 00:27:25.240
<v Speaker 4>have somebody curate for you. Take some baby steps. Don't

514
00:27:25.279 --> 00:27:27.319
<v Speaker 4>throw yourself into the deep end and be like, well,

515
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.240
<v Speaker 4>I don't like horror, but let's see what hell rasor

516
00:27:29.319 --> 00:27:31.759
<v Speaker 4>is all about, Like, don't do that to yourself.

517
00:27:32.200 --> 00:27:38.559
<v Speaker 3>But but but it's so gooy and sexy and fun.

518
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:40.839
<v Speaker 4>And based on gay sn m clubs.

519
00:27:41.039 --> 00:27:44.720
<v Speaker 1>Yes really, rather the one where he has pins in

520
00:27:44.759 --> 00:27:45.279
<v Speaker 1>his face?

521
00:27:45.519 --> 00:27:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Yes, okay, okay, and.

522
00:27:48.480 --> 00:27:52.880
<v Speaker 5>Like, oh yeah, it's done by Clive Barker. Clive Barker

523
00:27:52.920 --> 00:27:55.759
<v Speaker 5>also did Night Breed. If you're gonna watch it, yeah,

524
00:27:55.839 --> 00:27:58.240
<v Speaker 5>you need to watch the director's cut because it's fire

525
00:27:58.319 --> 00:28:00.759
<v Speaker 5>superior version, arguably one of the best directs cuts ever made.

526
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:04.240
<v Speaker 5>He did Midnight Meat Train. He you know, is responsible

527
00:28:05.319 --> 00:28:08.079
<v Speaker 5>as Hell's Midnight Meat Train.

528
00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:11.680
<v Speaker 4>It's Midnight b Train where Bradley Cooper becomes obsessed with

529
00:28:11.759 --> 00:28:14.079
<v Speaker 4>a man named after a piece of wood y.

530
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:17.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, Clive Barker just does whatever he wants. He's a

531
00:28:17.160 --> 00:28:18.319
<v Speaker 5>maniac queer.

532
00:28:18.759 --> 00:28:20.880
<v Speaker 4>Oh yeah, oh yeah, super sick.

533
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.480
<v Speaker 2>I don't know anything, but this is so.

534
00:28:23.720 --> 00:28:25.880
<v Speaker 1>I know the name Clive Barker, but I did not.

535
00:28:26.359 --> 00:28:29.039
<v Speaker 2>I had no This is really I am mister.

536
00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:34.319
<v Speaker 5>There's also the new Hell Raiser, which stars Jamie Clayton

537
00:28:34.480 --> 00:28:37.880
<v Speaker 5>as the Priest aka Pinhead, which means you get now

538
00:28:38.440 --> 00:28:41.799
<v Speaker 5>trans cenobites and they kind of never had a gender.

539
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.480
<v Speaker 5>That was the point. But like that's an extra layer

540
00:28:44.519 --> 00:28:47.000
<v Speaker 5>of queerness. It's like you've put three hats on this hat.

541
00:28:47.079 --> 00:28:51.920
<v Speaker 1>It's great, Okay, this is wild. I had no idea

542
00:28:52.039 --> 00:28:55.279
<v Speaker 1>Hell Raiser was queer. I just knew about the pin

543
00:28:55.559 --> 00:28:57.680
<v Speaker 1>The pin person with Pinhead is the.

544
00:28:57.720 --> 00:28:58.599
<v Speaker 2>Night of that character.

545
00:28:58.640 --> 00:28:59.519
<v Speaker 5>That's what everyone calls it.

546
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.480
<v Speaker 4>That makes free pihead whatever you want to call it. Okay,

547
00:29:03.039 --> 00:29:06.079
<v Speaker 4>But yeah, the aesthetics of the Cenobites, which are these

548
00:29:06.319 --> 00:29:09.039
<v Speaker 4>you know, demons where pain and pleasure are one and

549
00:29:09.079 --> 00:29:12.519
<v Speaker 4>the same, they are definitely modeled after the gay sn

550
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:14.599
<v Speaker 4>M clubs that Clive Barker used to go to. They're

551
00:29:14.599 --> 00:29:19.279
<v Speaker 4>all wearing leather and chains and you know, terrorizing each

552
00:29:19.319 --> 00:29:22.400
<v Speaker 4>other for the funzies. It's super super.

553
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:25.519
<v Speaker 1>Good, Okay, L I had no idea. Oh and wait,

554
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:28.440
<v Speaker 1>what I was going to ask earlier is the modern Scream.

555
00:29:28.519 --> 00:29:30.839
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if they're not reboots. I guess because

556
00:29:30.839 --> 00:29:31.880
<v Speaker 2>they're I mean, it's in there.

557
00:29:32.160 --> 00:29:35.960
<v Speaker 1>Can the sequels there were just like kids, we call

558
00:29:36.039 --> 00:29:37.119
<v Speaker 1>them like sequels.

559
00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:39.160
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I like that, but.

560
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:42.640
<v Speaker 1>There was like a big gap right in between, like yeah,

561
00:29:42.680 --> 00:29:46.759
<v Speaker 1>and so are the new ones like overtly overtly queer

562
00:29:46.799 --> 00:29:49.279
<v Speaker 1>like queer characters or like what's he doing with those

563
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.640
<v Speaker 1>new ones now that he can in a way that

564
00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:53.960
<v Speaker 1>he couldn't, And like, you.

565
00:29:53.920 --> 00:29:57.160
<v Speaker 4>Know what's fascinating is the new ones. Suscream five and

566
00:29:57.240 --> 00:30:01.319
<v Speaker 4>six come from the film collect known as Radio silence.

567
00:30:01.599 --> 00:30:04.440
<v Speaker 4>They also made an incredible movie called Ready or Not

568
00:30:04.720 --> 00:30:07.440
<v Speaker 4>that people love because it's Samorrow Weaving covered in blood

569
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.160
<v Speaker 4>in a wedding dress and screaming.

570
00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 5>It's funny.

571
00:30:11.079 --> 00:30:13.039
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, it's very funny. So you've seen that image. You've

572
00:30:13.000 --> 00:30:16.519
<v Speaker 4>seen that. They also did Abigail this year, the Valleria

573
00:30:16.599 --> 00:30:21.200
<v Speaker 4>Vampire movie. But in Scream five and six they introduce

574
00:30:21.720 --> 00:30:25.319
<v Speaker 4>the character of Mindy Meeks. She has a second last

575
00:30:25.359 --> 00:30:29.440
<v Speaker 4>name I can never remember, but she's related to Jamie

576
00:30:29.480 --> 00:30:34.200
<v Speaker 4>Kennedy's character, Randy Meeks. That's that's their uncle because their

577
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.400
<v Speaker 4>mom is Heather Modarazzo's character from Scream two, So you

578
00:30:38.400 --> 00:30:42.279
<v Speaker 4>know Heather Madarazzo lesbian icon. Incredible, yes, but the kids,

579
00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:45.240
<v Speaker 4>the kids are twins and one of them is played

580
00:30:45.240 --> 00:30:49.480
<v Speaker 4>by Jasmine Savoy Brown and in Scream six has a girlfriend.

581
00:30:49.799 --> 00:30:55.519
<v Speaker 4>So it's very, very very openly queer. And then in

582
00:30:55.559 --> 00:30:58.720
<v Speaker 4>the next movie for Scream seven, which we don't know what,

583
00:30:59.000 --> 00:31:02.279
<v Speaker 4>there's been a lot of chaos behind the scenes. His

584
00:31:02.480 --> 00:31:07.400
<v Speaker 4>own I have read about can of Worms. Yeah, shout out,

585
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.720
<v Speaker 4>Melissa Brera, You're a real one. But Kevin Williamson is

586
00:31:12.759 --> 00:31:17.160
<v Speaker 4>now taking over to direct Scream seven rather than just

587
00:31:17.240 --> 00:31:20.279
<v Speaker 4>you know, be the guy who wrote the original screenplay

588
00:31:20.319 --> 00:31:23.319
<v Speaker 4>and created this world. He's now directing Scream seven, okay,

589
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:26.759
<v Speaker 4>and so I'm very curious to see like what he's

590
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:29.640
<v Speaker 4>going to do with this world, if there's going to

591
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:31.640
<v Speaker 4>be a new queer character, what we're gonna see, like

592
00:31:31.680 --> 00:31:34.160
<v Speaker 4>we just we just don't know yet, okay.

593
00:31:34.440 --> 00:31:35.720
<v Speaker 1>Ooh that's cool.

594
00:31:36.160 --> 00:31:36.960
<v Speaker 2>I love that.

595
00:31:42.519 --> 00:31:45.319
<v Speaker 1>And then in terms of I mean, I want y'all

596
00:31:45.400 --> 00:31:47.319
<v Speaker 1>to talk about whichever movies.

597
00:31:47.079 --> 00:31:47.799
<v Speaker 2>You want to talk about.

598
00:31:47.839 --> 00:31:49.720
<v Speaker 1>I know I'd mentioned in my email the ones that

599
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:53.960
<v Speaker 1>were really in my face on social media were Bodies,

600
00:31:54.000 --> 00:31:57.319
<v Speaker 1>Body's Bodies, and I saw the TV glow like with

601
00:31:57.519 --> 00:32:00.839
<v Speaker 1>those any thoughts feelings like those. That was when I

602
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:06.079
<v Speaker 1>felt like everyone was talking about movies not necessary, like

603
00:32:06.119 --> 00:32:08.400
<v Speaker 1>it seeped out of queer Twitter for me, and I

604
00:32:08.440 --> 00:32:10.640
<v Speaker 1>was like, oh, this is like everywhere, these movies are

605
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:14.119
<v Speaker 1>like making us splash or whatever the kids.

606
00:32:15.039 --> 00:32:21.000
<v Speaker 4>I'll talk that, I'll talk Bodies, Bodies, Bodies, and that

607
00:32:21.000 --> 00:32:25.920
<v Speaker 4>that one was so fun because the queerness is so casual.

608
00:32:26.359 --> 00:32:29.759
<v Speaker 4>It's not part of you know, the plot, like it

609
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:31.319
<v Speaker 4>is part of the plot in the sense that like

610
00:32:31.599 --> 00:32:34.000
<v Speaker 4>it's a couple and you're, you know, watching this couple

611
00:32:34.039 --> 00:32:38.000
<v Speaker 4>that have, you know, not the easiest relationship going on,

612
00:32:39.400 --> 00:32:47.400
<v Speaker 4>and for that to just be right, for that to

613
00:32:47.400 --> 00:32:49.680
<v Speaker 4>be treated as just like normal matter of fact. I

614
00:32:49.720 --> 00:32:52.039
<v Speaker 4>was like, Oh, that's really nice. That's like a nice

615
00:32:52.079 --> 00:32:55.799
<v Speaker 4>little addition here. And the fact is like their love

616
00:32:55.920 --> 00:32:58.279
<v Speaker 4>and their relationship is part of it, but it's not

617
00:32:58.440 --> 00:33:02.680
<v Speaker 4>about it, which I And then as far as I

618
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:05.279
<v Speaker 4>saw the TV glow is concerned, I guess that's more

619
00:33:05.359 --> 00:33:06.920
<v Speaker 4>of a harmony wheelhouse.

620
00:33:08.839 --> 00:33:11.079
<v Speaker 5>But harmony is an eagle on merit.

621
00:33:11.920 --> 00:33:14.400
<v Speaker 4>Harmony is a very unpopular opinion about I saw the.

622
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:16.079
<v Speaker 2>Tea well, I'd love to hear.

623
00:33:16.160 --> 00:33:18.519
<v Speaker 1>I would love to hear an unpopular opinion, if you

624
00:33:18.839 --> 00:33:21.880
<v Speaker 1>I know, like I know, giving an unpopular opinion is

625
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:23.200
<v Speaker 1>like opening yourself up.

626
00:33:23.079 --> 00:33:24.599
<v Speaker 2>To very angry fans.

627
00:33:24.759 --> 00:33:29.079
<v Speaker 5>But yeah, no, yes, I mean I watched that. I'd

628
00:33:29.079 --> 00:33:32.079
<v Speaker 5>been I'd been dreading that movie because the previous film

629
00:33:32.119 --> 00:33:34.359
<v Speaker 5>by Jane Shoon bra We're All Going to the World's Fair,

630
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:38.680
<v Speaker 5>was toploitely say, not my cup of tea, And I

631
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:41.640
<v Speaker 5>was not a terrible fan, but I do kind of

632
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:45.359
<v Speaker 5>respect the scrappiness of that movie, which is fair. I

633
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:47.319
<v Speaker 5>was not looking forward to I saw the TV glow.

634
00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:50.079
<v Speaker 5>I was dreading it when it was doing festival circuits

635
00:33:50.119 --> 00:33:54.119
<v Speaker 5>because if I like it, that's fine. If I'm mediocre

636
00:33:54.200 --> 00:33:56.759
<v Speaker 5>on it, that won't end well. If I hate it,

637
00:33:57.000 --> 00:34:00.799
<v Speaker 5>that's very bad. Sure, sure, this is a matter of

638
00:34:01.000 --> 00:34:03.599
<v Speaker 5>I think it's bad. It's a matter of that means

639
00:34:03.680 --> 00:34:08.039
<v Speaker 5>either I say nothing, or I say or I heard

640
00:34:08.039 --> 00:34:09.719
<v Speaker 5>a lot of people's feelings.

641
00:34:10.079 --> 00:34:13.519
<v Speaker 1>Well, this is the curse of like being a queer

642
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:17.599
<v Speaker 1>person talking about I was gonna say queer media, but

643
00:34:17.679 --> 00:34:20.800
<v Speaker 1>kind of like anything queer that exists is like you

644
00:34:21.039 --> 00:34:24.119
<v Speaker 1>have to figure out. Sometimes you're like, I really don't

645
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:27.079
<v Speaker 1>like this, but for the for the community, Like I

646
00:34:27.079 --> 00:34:29.320
<v Speaker 1>guess I'll keep my opinions to myself because it's like

647
00:34:29.400 --> 00:34:31.320
<v Speaker 1>good that it's getting out there. But it's like, okay,

648
00:34:31.400 --> 00:34:34.880
<v Speaker 1>when what's the tipping point? At what point do we

649
00:34:35.039 --> 00:34:38.079
<v Speaker 1>have enough stuff out there that we're allowed to be

650
00:34:38.119 --> 00:34:41.800
<v Speaker 1>honest about our opinions the way like straight white people

651
00:34:41.960 --> 00:34:45.719
<v Speaker 1>could be honest about anything so much?

652
00:34:47.519 --> 00:34:49.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, exactly, because that's.

653
00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:52.639
<v Speaker 4>The trap that we all fall into, as anybody who

654
00:34:52.679 --> 00:34:56.079
<v Speaker 4>is marginalized writing about art that is coming from marginalized voices,

655
00:34:56.559 --> 00:34:59.360
<v Speaker 4>is that, on one hand, This is my very like

656
00:34:59.400 --> 00:35:01.679
<v Speaker 4>diplomatic assessment of I saw the TV Glow, which is

657
00:35:01.719 --> 00:35:03.960
<v Speaker 4>not about the movie itself. It's about like kind of

658
00:35:04.000 --> 00:35:07.000
<v Speaker 4>the culture that has surrounded it, because I think that

659
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.679
<v Speaker 4>is more interesting to talk about than the actual movie.

660
00:35:09.719 --> 00:35:11.559
<v Speaker 4>Like people are going to feel about that movie, how

661
00:35:11.599 --> 00:35:14.320
<v Speaker 4>they feel about it. The culture surrounding that movie is

662
00:35:14.360 --> 00:35:18.000
<v Speaker 4>what I think is more interesting is that a lot

663
00:35:18.039 --> 00:35:22.400
<v Speaker 4>of people came out in twenty twenty, either sexuality, gender,

664
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:24.599
<v Speaker 4>what have you, because a lot of people had a

665
00:35:24.639 --> 00:35:27.920
<v Speaker 4>lot of time to sit in with their internal thoughts

666
00:35:28.320 --> 00:35:30.280
<v Speaker 4>and come to some conclusions. And I think that that

667
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.880
<v Speaker 4>is beautiful and I think that is incredible. But it

668
00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:35.119
<v Speaker 4>also means that a lot of people were coming out

669
00:35:35.119 --> 00:35:38.639
<v Speaker 4>and discovering things about themselves while they were inside and

670
00:35:38.679 --> 00:35:44.119
<v Speaker 4>they were not outside in having to deal with large Oh.

671
00:35:44.239 --> 00:35:48.000
<v Speaker 4>So people became like very fixated on trying to find

672
00:35:48.400 --> 00:35:50.119
<v Speaker 4>what I like to call like the myth of the

673
00:35:50.239 --> 00:35:53.400
<v Speaker 4>universal experience, which is when people post like their cute

674
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:56.000
<v Speaker 4>little memes or whatever of like the trans girl starter

675
00:35:56.119 --> 00:35:58.360
<v Speaker 4>kit or like the lesbian starter kit, and it's like,

676
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.400
<v Speaker 4>you know, whatever, whatever, and to some extent, like that's

677
00:36:01.480 --> 00:36:03.599
<v Speaker 4>very cute. It's a way to find community. But also

678
00:36:04.159 --> 00:36:07.079
<v Speaker 4>it is we've invented a new way to other people

679
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:12.920
<v Speaker 4>by doing that. Yes, there are so many queer and

680
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:17.440
<v Speaker 4>trans people I know who will not say anything negative

681
00:36:17.639 --> 00:36:20.119
<v Speaker 4>about I saw the TV Glow because they know this

682
00:36:20.199 --> 00:36:22.559
<v Speaker 4>movie has been very vital for a lot of people.

683
00:36:22.599 --> 00:36:25.239
<v Speaker 4>It has helped a lot of people come to terms

684
00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:28.039
<v Speaker 4>with their own feelings about their gender or their sexuality.

685
00:36:28.199 --> 00:36:32.159
<v Speaker 4>Or there's even somebody who used their letterboxed review to

686
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:35.840
<v Speaker 4>come out as trans. That is a very big deal,

687
00:36:36.199 --> 00:36:38.400
<v Speaker 4>and no one else in the community wants to like

688
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:41.719
<v Speaker 4>shit on that by being hey, I don't like this movie.

689
00:36:42.159 --> 00:36:46.679
<v Speaker 4>Because because we've become such like indoor kids, people are

690
00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:50.360
<v Speaker 4>now treating media as an extension of their personality. So

691
00:36:50.519 --> 00:36:54.320
<v Speaker 4>if you say I don't like this movie, they're not

692
00:36:54.440 --> 00:36:57.239
<v Speaker 4>hearing I don't like this movie. They're hearing I don't

693
00:36:57.320 --> 00:36:57.800
<v Speaker 4>like you.

694
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:00.519
<v Speaker 2>It's a stand culture. It's too much.

695
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:03.199
<v Speaker 1>I need to use that term because it's so embarrassing.

696
00:37:03.239 --> 00:37:06.079
<v Speaker 1>But that is what Yeah, and the parasocial relationship and

697
00:37:06.119 --> 00:37:08.320
<v Speaker 1>all this stuff that we're talking about online, like this

698
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:11.119
<v Speaker 1>is the the I was going to say the negative

699
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:12.440
<v Speaker 1>side of it, but it's like it's kind of all

700
00:37:12.480 --> 00:37:15.000
<v Speaker 1>negative side, like those things. I hope we move away

701
00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:18.639
<v Speaker 1>from them, but yeah, it becomes so personal and so

702
00:37:18.880 --> 00:37:23.239
<v Speaker 1>like intrinsic to someone's identity that then you can't criticize

703
00:37:23.239 --> 00:37:26.199
<v Speaker 1>it or even kind of like talk about it as

704
00:37:26.679 --> 00:37:28.679
<v Speaker 1>it's just a movie, like you're not allowed to do

705
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:32.719
<v Speaker 1>that because it was not. It's codependency, and yes it's codependency.

706
00:37:32.760 --> 00:37:35.199
<v Speaker 5>It's a problem, and people don't recognize it as codependency

707
00:37:35.239 --> 00:37:39.440
<v Speaker 5>because it's been normalized so much, especially on online circles.

708
00:37:39.679 --> 00:37:42.000
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I guess my my large thoughts about I

709
00:37:42.039 --> 00:37:45.800
<v Speaker 5>Saw the TV Glow are that On our podcast oftentimes,

710
00:37:45.840 --> 00:37:47.480
<v Speaker 5>you know, we talked about teen girl movies, we talked

711
00:37:47.480 --> 00:37:50.119
<v Speaker 5>about coming of age movies. I'm in my thirties now,

712
00:37:50.440 --> 00:37:53.880
<v Speaker 5>maybe you know a Cinderella story is not that bad.

713
00:37:54.000 --> 00:37:57.159
<v Speaker 5>But I tell you what, when you're like of when

714
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:59.679
<v Speaker 5>you're past a certain age, that is a nothing burger

715
00:37:59.719 --> 00:38:03.239
<v Speaker 5>of a I'm like, maybe I'm just a little too

716
00:38:03.360 --> 00:38:05.760
<v Speaker 5>old to watch I Saw the TV Glow. Maybe it's

717
00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:09.320
<v Speaker 5>been a long fifteen years of not being an indoor

718
00:38:09.400 --> 00:38:12.480
<v Speaker 5>kid for me. That makes this movie just interesting in

719
00:38:12.519 --> 00:38:16.159
<v Speaker 5>a way that I appreciate. So I lost days of

720
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:18.320
<v Speaker 5>sleep after that movie came out, because I was like,

721
00:38:18.360 --> 00:38:21.840
<v Speaker 5>oh god, I'm staring down the barrel of a yeah,

722
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:23.840
<v Speaker 5>a movie I don't like.

723
00:38:24.480 --> 00:38:27.480
<v Speaker 1>Oh totally this is and I really appreciate you talking

724
00:38:27.480 --> 00:38:30.599
<v Speaker 1>about it because I so know that that is.

725
00:38:30.679 --> 00:38:32.559
<v Speaker 2>Like I've absolutely had that.

726
00:38:32.480 --> 00:38:35.440
<v Speaker 1>Feeling where it's like I don't like the queer thing

727
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:37.199
<v Speaker 1>that everybody likes.

728
00:38:36.960 --> 00:38:39.559
<v Speaker 5>And like this is common for me. I often don't

729
00:38:39.639 --> 00:38:41.679
<v Speaker 5>like the queer things everyone likes.

730
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:45.559
<v Speaker 2>Well, yeah, I love Bejing. What you said about people.

731
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:47.760
<v Speaker 1>I mean, anyone who listens to this podcast knows how

732
00:38:47.760 --> 00:38:51.119
<v Speaker 1>many people came out in twenty twenty because so many

733
00:38:51.199 --> 00:38:54.440
<v Speaker 1>people that's been their story. And it's not just the

734
00:38:54.800 --> 00:38:57.760
<v Speaker 1>insideness that I think made a lot of it very

735
00:38:57.960 --> 00:39:01.480
<v Speaker 1>shall we say self folks, which makes sense, you know,

736
00:39:01.599 --> 00:39:05.000
<v Speaker 1>like you're you're inside with yourself, you're gonna be self focused.

737
00:39:05.199 --> 00:39:07.760
<v Speaker 1>But it's also a lot of baby clears. It's also

738
00:39:07.920 --> 00:39:11.559
<v Speaker 1>like a lot of really new and harmony. You're someone

739
00:39:11.559 --> 00:39:13.679
<v Speaker 1>who I mean, Bja, you mentioned your episode Harmony. You

740
00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:17.199
<v Speaker 1>transitioned like many many, many many years ago, so you're

741
00:39:17.280 --> 00:39:21.360
<v Speaker 1>like so far ahead, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean by.

742
00:39:21.239 --> 00:39:23.639
<v Speaker 5>The time this comes out, it'll be about fifteen years

743
00:39:23.639 --> 00:39:24.079
<v Speaker 5>on the dot.

744
00:39:24.280 --> 00:39:28.599
<v Speaker 1>Wow, yeah, okay, So and for anyone who for I

745
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.679
<v Speaker 1>feel like if I'm familiar with the idea at least

746
00:39:31.719 --> 00:39:33.920
<v Speaker 1>of I saw the Tuva glam like everybody must be

747
00:39:34.000 --> 00:39:38.000
<v Speaker 1>right because I don't even watch her. But is it

748
00:39:38.039 --> 00:39:42.519
<v Speaker 1>is it a I've seen some discourse quote unquote, is

749
00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:47.960
<v Speaker 1>it oh, directly overtly like this is a trans story

750
00:39:48.119 --> 00:39:50.039
<v Speaker 1>or is it more subtle?

751
00:39:50.320 --> 00:39:55.320
<v Speaker 5>Because I have seen it is not subtle. So here's funny,

752
00:39:55.360 --> 00:39:58.079
<v Speaker 5>though there are cis people who completely miss that.

753
00:39:58.119 --> 00:40:01.840
<v Speaker 2>It's okay, it's just about the safety.

754
00:40:01.400 --> 00:40:07.480
<v Speaker 7>Of nostalgia and comfort in nostalgia. That's the storytelling device

755
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:09.440
<v Speaker 7>to get you there. But like, this is one of

756
00:40:09.440 --> 00:40:12.519
<v Speaker 7>those things where if you know even remotely what you're

757
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.280
<v Speaker 7>looking for, it is like a flashing red light in

758
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:16.039
<v Speaker 7>front of your face.

759
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:17.840
<v Speaker 5>It is zed.

760
00:40:18.360 --> 00:40:22.079
<v Speaker 1>But then I have heard some people be like, I

761
00:40:22.079 --> 00:40:24.679
<v Speaker 1>don't know if and I'm like, wait, now I'm confused

762
00:40:24.679 --> 00:40:26.960
<v Speaker 1>to someone who hasn't seen it, because reading the synopsis

763
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.679
<v Speaker 1>on Wikipedia, I'm like, this is just this is what

764
00:40:29.719 --> 00:40:30.559
<v Speaker 1>it's about.

765
00:40:30.800 --> 00:40:34.000
<v Speaker 5>The main character played by Justice Smith literally wears a

766
00:40:34.079 --> 00:40:36.440
<v Speaker 5>dress in this movie and then goes, no, I don't

767
00:40:36.480 --> 00:40:38.360
<v Speaker 5>like this. I'm scared and then runs back into the

768
00:40:38.360 --> 00:40:42.679
<v Speaker 5>closet like this movie's really fucking obvious about what it's about. Right.

769
00:40:42.719 --> 00:40:46.159
<v Speaker 4>I did make a TikTok about this because every once

770
00:40:46.199 --> 00:40:48.519
<v Speaker 4>in a while I wade into the discourse. Mind's always

771
00:40:48.519 --> 00:40:50.920
<v Speaker 4>a mistake. I don't know why, yeah, especially on that end.

772
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:53.679
<v Speaker 4>But I made a video because people were like, I

773
00:40:53.679 --> 00:40:56.559
<v Speaker 4>don't understand how many ciscritics are like not seeing this,

774
00:40:57.119 --> 00:41:00.440
<v Speaker 4>And so the explanation that I gave people is that

775
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:03.199
<v Speaker 4>when you are marginalized in some way, shape or form,

776
00:41:03.599 --> 00:41:06.199
<v Speaker 4>the way I like to compare it is it's like

777
00:41:06.599 --> 00:41:09.800
<v Speaker 4>being able to speak another language. Like if you are

778
00:41:09.880 --> 00:41:12.800
<v Speaker 4>somebody who can speak English and Spanish, there is a

779
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:16.559
<v Speaker 4>high probability that you will be probably okay in trying

780
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:19.920
<v Speaker 4>to understand something similar like Italian. You're not going to

781
00:41:20.039 --> 00:41:26.440
<v Speaker 4>know the language inside it out. Yeah, you're not going

782
00:41:26.519 --> 00:41:29.519
<v Speaker 4>to understand the language like perfectly, but you're going to

783
00:41:29.559 --> 00:41:33.119
<v Speaker 4>be able to infer that grazi is probably similar to

784
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:36.559
<v Speaker 4>grassius and it does mean the same thing. And so

785
00:41:36.920 --> 00:41:40.239
<v Speaker 4>a lot of like cis straight critics are not able

786
00:41:40.280 --> 00:41:42.760
<v Speaker 4>to speak the inherent language that like a lot of

787
00:41:42.840 --> 00:41:46.119
<v Speaker 4>queer people can speak. So they're not seeing it in

788
00:41:46.119 --> 00:41:49.400
<v Speaker 4>this movie, whereas when we watch it, we're like, oh, yeah,

789
00:41:49.400 --> 00:41:52.760
<v Speaker 4>this is speaking my language, like that's what's happening. That's

790
00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:55.360
<v Speaker 4>why they're missing it because they don't know how to

791
00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.800
<v Speaker 4>speak this language. But for us, we're all fluent, so

792
00:41:58.840 --> 00:42:00.960
<v Speaker 4>we're like, what do you mean you don't understand what's happening?

793
00:42:02.440 --> 00:42:05.880
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, okay, yeah, because my understanding until I read a

794
00:42:05.960 --> 00:42:09.000
<v Speaker 1>couple of like tweets or poll coats or whatever, I

795
00:42:09.079 --> 00:42:12.280
<v Speaker 1>was like, oh, wow, this is like a trans horror movie.

796
00:42:12.280 --> 00:42:14.280
<v Speaker 1>And then I would see some people being like, I mean,

797
00:42:14.400 --> 00:42:16.840
<v Speaker 1>it's not like over and I was like, now I'm confused.

798
00:42:16.840 --> 00:42:18.599
<v Speaker 2>So it's good to know that it's just good old

799
00:42:18.599 --> 00:42:20.280
<v Speaker 2>fashioned over the head.

800
00:42:20.920 --> 00:42:24.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah for some people, and har harmony was your kind

801
00:42:24.960 --> 00:42:29.039
<v Speaker 1>of main issue or not, whatever was what you did

802
00:42:29.079 --> 00:42:32.159
<v Speaker 1>not enjoy about it? Was it that it felt kind

803
00:42:32.199 --> 00:42:35.360
<v Speaker 1>of like rudimentary or like hitting it over the head,

804
00:42:35.800 --> 00:42:39.039
<v Speaker 1>or like, what was your take on it that it

805
00:42:39.079 --> 00:42:43.000
<v Speaker 1>didn't really Yes, yeah, yes to all of that.

806
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:46.199
<v Speaker 5>I mean, I mean, okay, so I don't I don't

807
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:47.639
<v Speaker 5>know if this is it for everybody else, but I

808
00:42:47.679 --> 00:42:49.559
<v Speaker 5>certainly don't think the right way to watch a movie

809
00:42:49.639 --> 00:42:53.280
<v Speaker 5>is just to say yeah, I get it, with increasing

810
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:57.400
<v Speaker 5>volume and frustration for most of the movies run time

811
00:42:57.440 --> 00:43:02.199
<v Speaker 5>of like yeah, I get it, it just doesn't work

812
00:43:02.239 --> 00:43:05.719
<v Speaker 5>for me. Like I wrote over three thousand words about

813
00:43:05.719 --> 00:43:08.199
<v Speaker 5>my feelings on this, especially because this is a period piece.

814
00:43:08.199 --> 00:43:10.719
<v Speaker 5>It starts in the nineties and then moves up to

815
00:43:11.000 --> 00:43:14.199
<v Speaker 5>you know, presumably the modern day. It's a little vague

816
00:43:14.199 --> 00:43:18.239
<v Speaker 5>about it, but no, I mean I came out is

817
00:43:18.320 --> 00:43:22.239
<v Speaker 5>trans in the two thousands. I know what it was like.

818
00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.719
<v Speaker 5>I was there, and this is not exactly what it

819
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:28.760
<v Speaker 5>was like. But then again, this character doesn't actually ever

820
00:43:28.840 --> 00:43:33.960
<v Speaker 5>come out spoilers, I guess for this scared straight story

821
00:43:33.960 --> 00:43:38.519
<v Speaker 5>that's actually about trying to scare you gay. I don't know.

822
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:42.440
<v Speaker 5>It's so it is so on the nose, it is

823
00:43:42.480 --> 00:43:47.199
<v Speaker 5>so I don't know. I'm trying to be nice about

824
00:43:47.199 --> 00:43:50.079
<v Speaker 5>this because I don't I don't want to upset anyone.

825
00:43:50.840 --> 00:43:53.639
<v Speaker 1>Will it be like people, you know, like, assuming the

826
00:43:53.679 --> 00:43:56.480
<v Speaker 1>earth makes it another fifty or so years, will it

827
00:43:56.519 --> 00:43:58.559
<v Speaker 1>be like, oh, this was kind of the first I

828
00:43:58.599 --> 00:44:00.679
<v Speaker 1>don't know if mainstream is the right way, but like

829
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:05.440
<v Speaker 1>trans horror movie and like we can you know, enjoy

830
00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:07.800
<v Speaker 1>it for what it was, but like, wow, it was

831
00:44:08.039 --> 00:44:10.440
<v Speaker 1>very like isn't that kind of a thing where years

832
00:44:11.079 --> 00:44:11.920
<v Speaker 1>will be like one.

833
00:44:11.840 --> 00:44:13.400
<v Speaker 5>Of those things where it's like, oh my god, it's

834
00:44:13.400 --> 00:44:15.199
<v Speaker 5>aged so badly, and I'm like, no, I think this

835
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:17.559
<v Speaker 5>is gonna age just fine. I think it's gonna be

836
00:44:17.639 --> 00:44:19.639
<v Speaker 5>one of these things. Like the whole point of the

837
00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:21.800
<v Speaker 5>movie that the seeing the TV glows and watching a

838
00:44:22.360 --> 00:44:25.199
<v Speaker 5>Buffy the Vampire Slayer type show and just being like,

839
00:44:25.239 --> 00:44:27.960
<v Speaker 5>oh my god, I saw something of myself in that.

840
00:44:28.559 --> 00:44:30.159
<v Speaker 5>And then you get a little older and you try

841
00:44:30.199 --> 00:44:32.239
<v Speaker 5>to rewatch it and you go, oh, this wasn't as

842
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:35.400
<v Speaker 5>bold and ambitious as I thought it was. This is

843
00:44:35.480 --> 00:44:39.079
<v Speaker 5>kind of a baby show for babies. It's kind of

844
00:44:39.119 --> 00:44:41.960
<v Speaker 5>like corny and bad, right, Like the ice cream Man

845
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:43.880
<v Speaker 5>is just a man in a mask, and he's not

846
00:44:43.960 --> 00:44:45.679
<v Speaker 5>scary like I thought he was when I was a kid.

847
00:44:46.000 --> 00:44:48.679
<v Speaker 5>I think that I should hope that people will go, yeah,

848
00:44:48.679 --> 00:44:50.159
<v Speaker 5>I know this meant a lot to me at the time,

849
00:44:50.239 --> 00:44:54.119
<v Speaker 5>but they will seek out other queer horror, they will

850
00:44:54.119 --> 00:44:59.199
<v Speaker 5>seek out other queer media. They will grow beyond this story,

851
00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:01.199
<v Speaker 5>is my hopes for it.

852
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:05.599
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's very much. That's very much how I operate,

853
00:45:05.840 --> 00:45:07.920
<v Speaker 4>which you know, Harmony and I talk about coming of

854
00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:10.400
<v Speaker 4>age stories all the time on our show because that's

855
00:45:10.440 --> 00:45:13.159
<v Speaker 4>the whole point of it. And there are movies that

856
00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:17.079
<v Speaker 4>I look back on that I loved as a teenager,

857
00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:20.800
<v Speaker 4>like I loved Freaky Friday with Jamie Lee Curtis and

858
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:23.199
<v Speaker 4>Lindsay Lahman. I still do to this day, but you

859
00:45:23.239 --> 00:45:25.519
<v Speaker 4>look back at it as an adult and you're like, wow,

860
00:45:25.519 --> 00:45:28.800
<v Speaker 4>this movie is also like pretty racist against Asian people

861
00:45:28.920 --> 00:45:32.280
<v Speaker 4>and treating like ancient Chinese magic as like a plot device.

862
00:45:32.599 --> 00:45:34.239
<v Speaker 2>And I've never seen that interesting.

863
00:45:34.519 --> 00:45:36.360
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, that's that's how they switch is it's through like

864
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:40.199
<v Speaker 4>magic fortune cookies, and it's like, okay, well that's something.

865
00:45:40.519 --> 00:45:43.119
<v Speaker 4>But when you're thirteen, a lot of times you're not

866
00:45:43.199 --> 00:45:45.519
<v Speaker 4>going to like process that. So you can look at

867
00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:48.199
<v Speaker 4>it as adult and you can love something critically and go, okay,

868
00:45:48.199 --> 00:45:51.159
<v Speaker 4>I love this movie, and it's also like kind of problematic.

869
00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:54.199
<v Speaker 4>I think that this movie of I Saw the TV

870
00:45:54.239 --> 00:45:57.119
<v Speaker 4>Glow is so important because of what it means to

871
00:45:57.199 --> 00:45:59.159
<v Speaker 4>so many people right now, Like I think this is

872
00:45:59.199 --> 00:46:02.159
<v Speaker 4>a perfect trans movie for the time here that we

873
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:05.000
<v Speaker 4>are in right now with this big boom. I mean,

874
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:08.440
<v Speaker 4>Jane Shoon Brun started writing this movie when they started transitioning,

875
00:46:08.760 --> 00:46:10.960
<v Speaker 4>and I think it shows and I don't necessarily think

876
00:46:10.960 --> 00:46:13.280
<v Speaker 4>that that is a bad thing. I don't think it's

877
00:46:13.280 --> 00:46:15.159
<v Speaker 4>a bad thing at all. It's going to resonate with

878
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:15.960
<v Speaker 4>a lot of people.

879
00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:19.000
<v Speaker 5>It's them processing it, so we have a similar journey,

880
00:46:19.039 --> 00:46:21.679
<v Speaker 5>a similar starting point to where we are now.

881
00:46:21.800 --> 00:46:25.199
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, but I also understand why this movie would then

882
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:29.400
<v Speaker 4>not resonate with somebody like harmony or like yeah, countless

883
00:46:29.440 --> 00:46:32.360
<v Speaker 4>other people who were like, yeah, this is this has

884
00:46:32.440 --> 00:46:35.280
<v Speaker 4>not been new for me for a very long time.

885
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.719
<v Speaker 4>All of these feelings that you're processing I processed a

886
00:46:38.760 --> 00:46:39.400
<v Speaker 4>decade ago.

887
00:46:40.400 --> 00:46:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so I get it so interesting. I didn't know

888
00:46:42.960 --> 00:46:46.559
<v Speaker 1>it was a filmmaker who was also a baby queer

889
00:46:46.639 --> 00:46:52.119
<v Speaker 1>like that. Yeah, Okay, that's really interesting. Yeah, because it's

890
00:46:52.159 --> 00:46:55.000
<v Speaker 1>just like people, And that is what I'm seeing mostly

891
00:46:55.159 --> 00:46:57.360
<v Speaker 1>at least on my timeline, is people having these like

892
00:46:58.159 --> 00:47:02.280
<v Speaker 1>really sort of like beautiful in ten connections to it.

893
00:47:02.320 --> 00:47:06.239
<v Speaker 1>But that makes sense if they're in the same place

894
00:47:06.800 --> 00:47:11.719
<v Speaker 1>as the filmmaker. Like I wasn't aware. That's really interesting, Okay.

895
00:47:12.000 --> 00:47:14.679
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and I had people listening to this understand that

896
00:47:14.800 --> 00:47:17.320
<v Speaker 4>like it again, it's not a criticism of them, Like

897
00:47:17.360 --> 00:47:19.920
<v Speaker 4>if this movie speaks to you and like this was

898
00:47:20.039 --> 00:47:23.360
<v Speaker 4>eye opening and magical, like that's incredible, that's your experience.

899
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:27.320
<v Speaker 4>Harmony's experience does not then negate your experience, like life

900
00:47:27.400 --> 00:47:30.000
<v Speaker 4>is not a zero sum game. That's not how this works.

901
00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:33.000
<v Speaker 4>And so like I think that's what then becomes frustrating

902
00:47:33.360 --> 00:47:36.599
<v Speaker 4>because also like if we critique this movie publicly, one,

903
00:47:36.599 --> 00:47:38.480
<v Speaker 4>it feels like we're critiquing our community, which is like

904
00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:42.119
<v Speaker 4>never a fun experience. Two, it feels like, you know,

905
00:47:42.360 --> 00:47:46.440
<v Speaker 4>critiquing art from you know, a filmmaker who was telling

906
00:47:46.440 --> 00:47:49.039
<v Speaker 4>a story that like most studios are too afraid to

907
00:47:49.079 --> 00:47:52.360
<v Speaker 4>tell because we know this, the studios never take the

908
00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:55.760
<v Speaker 4>right message from anything. If people critique this movie, it

909
00:47:55.800 --> 00:47:58.960
<v Speaker 4>doesn't become like, oh, maybe we should give money to

910
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.159
<v Speaker 4>trans people who've been out for a long time and

911
00:48:01.199 --> 00:48:04.760
<v Speaker 4>hear their experience it because let's never let a transperson

912
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:06.840
<v Speaker 4>make a movie ever again. And it's like that's not

913
00:48:07.039 --> 00:48:07.960
<v Speaker 4>what we're saying here.

914
00:48:08.159 --> 00:48:14.440
<v Speaker 8>Oh my god, this is yeah, the horrors that I

915
00:48:14.480 --> 00:48:16.599
<v Speaker 8>tend to appreciate the things that I find the most

916
00:48:17.559 --> 00:48:19.639
<v Speaker 8>upsetting about this world that we live in, and what

917
00:48:19.719 --> 00:48:22.639
<v Speaker 8>I like to see in my dramas and horrors and

918
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:28.400
<v Speaker 8>all of my sad miserable things like British teleplays from

919
00:48:28.480 --> 00:48:29.559
<v Speaker 8>the seventies and eighties.

920
00:48:29.880 --> 00:48:34.800
<v Speaker 5>I like stuff that's tangible, and the horror of I

921
00:48:34.840 --> 00:48:39.719
<v Speaker 5>saw the TV glow is so entirely internal. It's just

922
00:48:39.840 --> 00:48:43.400
<v Speaker 5>it's all internal struggle. You are your own worst enemy. Eventually,

923
00:48:43.639 --> 00:48:48.119
<v Speaker 5>your homophobic dad played by Fred Durst dies and he

924
00:48:48.159 --> 00:48:50.199
<v Speaker 5>doesn't have any control over you anymore. But you're just

925
00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:54.760
<v Speaker 5>you are your own worst enemy. You are preventing yourself

926
00:48:54.880 --> 00:48:59.480
<v Speaker 5>from coming out. And that's just not the world that

927
00:48:59.559 --> 00:49:03.159
<v Speaker 5>I live in. I think that that is so important

928
00:49:03.199 --> 00:49:06.440
<v Speaker 5>as like a story for a lot of online spaces

929
00:49:06.519 --> 00:49:10.840
<v Speaker 5>right now, but like, yeah, where's all of the people

930
00:49:10.840 --> 00:49:12.880
<v Speaker 5>who have just been out there having to make it

931
00:49:12.920 --> 00:49:14.719
<v Speaker 5>work in the walking world?

932
00:49:15.000 --> 00:49:17.920
<v Speaker 2>I want? This is fascinating.

933
00:49:18.079 --> 00:49:21.719
<v Speaker 5>I want more of that. I want something seasoned. I

934
00:49:21.760 --> 00:49:26.159
<v Speaker 5>want something tangible. I want I feel like something that

935
00:49:26.199 --> 00:49:30.199
<v Speaker 5>I appreciate about, particularly miserable films that I watch. I

936
00:49:30.239 --> 00:49:34.920
<v Speaker 5>was watching Alan Clark's Scum last night, and it's a phenomenal, upsetting,

937
00:49:35.360 --> 00:49:39.519
<v Speaker 5>nasty movie about a boy's prison basically, but there's something

938
00:49:39.559 --> 00:49:44.800
<v Speaker 5>about certain misery that I see that I go Okay, cool,

939
00:49:44.840 --> 00:49:49.079
<v Speaker 5>I'm not crazy, right, because the misery we're talking about

940
00:49:49.119 --> 00:49:51.519
<v Speaker 5>with I saw the TV glows like a general sense

941
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:53.679
<v Speaker 5>of horrors, like oh, it filled me with existential dread.

942
00:49:53.800 --> 00:49:56.119
<v Speaker 5>I feel these feelings, and I don't feel any of

943
00:49:56.119 --> 00:49:59.639
<v Speaker 5>the feelings that everyone is describing because so much so

944
00:50:00.119 --> 00:50:02.599
<v Speaker 5>beyond that, I don't even know if there's a point

945
00:50:02.639 --> 00:50:04.119
<v Speaker 5>in my life where this ever would have been the

946
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:06.199
<v Speaker 5>exact right movie for me, because I've just never been

947
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:09.639
<v Speaker 5>a terribly like online child. I've never been one person

948
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:12.199
<v Speaker 5>to be consumed by like a television show. Personally.

949
00:50:12.320 --> 00:50:16.559
<v Speaker 1>It came out before online was a NonStop presence in

950
00:50:16.599 --> 00:50:18.920
<v Speaker 1>our Like everything we're saying, make so much of mine

951
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:19.239
<v Speaker 1>was a.

952
00:50:19.199 --> 00:50:21.159
<v Speaker 5>Place that you was at your house and then you

953
00:50:21.199 --> 00:50:23.480
<v Speaker 5>get up, and then you go somewhere and the online

954
00:50:23.519 --> 00:50:27.280
<v Speaker 5>stays there. So I feel like I.

955
00:50:27.519 --> 00:50:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Was still I agree.

956
00:50:30.119 --> 00:50:33.079
<v Speaker 5>I would love that. I just feel like what I

957
00:50:33.119 --> 00:50:34.719
<v Speaker 5>want to see and what I like to see in

958
00:50:34.719 --> 00:50:40.760
<v Speaker 5>my horrors, queer textually or queer subtextually is something that

959
00:50:40.880 --> 00:50:45.119
<v Speaker 5>feels more like what I recognize as a as a

960
00:50:45.119 --> 00:50:48.199
<v Speaker 5>as a form of suffering or horror or misery or

961
00:50:48.280 --> 00:50:51.880
<v Speaker 5>pain that I look at it and go Okay, I'm

962
00:50:51.880 --> 00:50:54.960
<v Speaker 5>not the only one feeling this. I don't feel crazy.

963
00:50:55.920 --> 00:50:59.440
<v Speaker 4>Something that Harmony said this would have been probably like

964
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:02.199
<v Speaker 4>four years ago at this point that I think about

965
00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:05.880
<v Speaker 4>all the time is Harmony and I were talking heads

966
00:51:05.960 --> 00:51:09.159
<v Speaker 4>for a Shutter docuseries. So it's on the streaming up

967
00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:10.800
<v Speaker 4>Shutter or I think you can also get it through

968
00:51:10.800 --> 00:51:13.639
<v Speaker 4>like AMC plus. It's called Queer for Fear. It was

969
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:16.000
<v Speaker 4>originally supposed to be longer. We only got like four episodes,

970
00:51:16.000 --> 00:51:17.519
<v Speaker 4>which was a bummer. So there's like a ton of

971
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:20.440
<v Speaker 4>like really great material that I know wasn't used. But

972
00:51:20.559 --> 00:51:22.880
<v Speaker 4>one of the questions they asked all of us is like,

973
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:25.119
<v Speaker 4>when did you see yourself in a horror movie for

974
00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:29.519
<v Speaker 4>the first time? My answer was Elvira, because I very

975
00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:35.639
<v Speaker 4>much love Cassandra Peterson, who plays Alvira, is under She

976
00:51:36.079 --> 00:51:40.800
<v Speaker 4>perpetuates the character as an androgynous character. And the reason

977
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:44.039
<v Speaker 4>she' views it, yeah, she says Alvira is androgynist because

978
00:51:44.079 --> 00:51:47.519
<v Speaker 4>Alvira is the inverse of these like very famous androgynoist

979
00:51:47.559 --> 00:51:51.519
<v Speaker 4>people we look to, like David Bowie or Mick Jagger,

980
00:51:51.599 --> 00:51:55.199
<v Speaker 4>who are very clearly men, but there's something very soft

981
00:51:55.199 --> 00:51:57.719
<v Speaker 4>about them, where She's like, Elvira is very clearly like

982
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:00.880
<v Speaker 4>fem woman, but there's something very hard about her, and

983
00:52:00.920 --> 00:52:04.840
<v Speaker 4>so that ru Yeah, I really opened up my eyes

984
00:52:04.880 --> 00:52:09.280
<v Speaker 4>about like, yes, Elvira is my gender. So I talk

985
00:52:09.320 --> 00:52:12.719
<v Speaker 4>about that, and then they asked Harmony the same question.

986
00:52:12.800 --> 00:52:14.440
<v Speaker 4>And I don't want to answer for you, but what

987
00:52:14.519 --> 00:52:16.599
<v Speaker 4>was your answer? Because I think about it NonStop.

988
00:52:17.880 --> 00:52:20.800
<v Speaker 5>It was twenty eight days later starting Killing Killian Murphy

989
00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:24.599
<v Speaker 5>twenty eight days Later is one of the best zombie

990
00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:26.360
<v Speaker 5>movies ever made. It's one of my favorite horror movies

991
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:30.719
<v Speaker 5>ever made. So it's a movie that's it's British. It

992
00:52:30.760 --> 00:52:34.360
<v Speaker 5>starts with Killian Murphy waking up. He'd been hooked up

993
00:52:34.400 --> 00:52:37.519
<v Speaker 5>to like machines and life support for a long time

994
00:52:37.639 --> 00:52:40.880
<v Speaker 5>in a hospital, but now he is like emaciated and

995
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:42.639
<v Speaker 5>the machines are off and he is in a world

996
00:52:42.679 --> 00:52:45.840
<v Speaker 5>that he does understand. There is no one around. It

997
00:52:45.960 --> 00:52:49.920
<v Speaker 5>is a desolate London. He's like, I'm confused. I just

998
00:52:49.960 --> 00:52:52.440
<v Speaker 5>got out of the hospital. Where do I go. He

999
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:55.800
<v Speaker 5>goes to a church and it's full of dead bodies

1000
00:52:55.840 --> 00:52:58.559
<v Speaker 5>and a priest tries to kill him, and then he

1001
00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:00.800
<v Speaker 5>finds out that the whole world is infected by these

1002
00:53:01.280 --> 00:53:03.760
<v Speaker 5>running zombie rage monsters who bleed blood out of their

1003
00:53:03.760 --> 00:53:07.519
<v Speaker 5>eyes and are very violent, and the only safe haven

1004
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:12.360
<v Speaker 5>that he can find is amongst a black woman, a daughter,

1005
00:53:12.440 --> 00:53:15.639
<v Speaker 5>and a loving father, and they have to fight the

1006
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:19.360
<v Speaker 5>small armed forces of the British military who are trying

1007
00:53:19.400 --> 00:53:22.320
<v Speaker 5>to establish order. So it is about a guy who

1008
00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:25.519
<v Speaker 5>wakes up in a hospital who has this thin wayfish figure,

1009
00:53:25.760 --> 00:53:28.480
<v Speaker 5>is immediately attacked by the church and has to fend

1010
00:53:28.519 --> 00:53:35.079
<v Speaker 5>off the hyper masculinity of the government. And I basically

1011
00:53:35.119 --> 00:53:37.960
<v Speaker 5>emotionally prepared myself since a young age where I'm like, oh, yes,

1012
00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:40.519
<v Speaker 5>this is what I This are the threats that I experience.

1013
00:53:40.559 --> 00:53:44.199
<v Speaker 5>These are the threats that I fear in the world. Vampires,

1014
00:53:44.360 --> 00:53:47.519
<v Speaker 5>I'm not afraid of vampires. Vampires aren't real. Michael Myers,

1015
00:53:47.559 --> 00:53:50.480
<v Speaker 5>He's just a guy. I'm not afraid of, just a guy. Jaws.

1016
00:53:51.079 --> 00:53:53.400
<v Speaker 5>Sharks are kind of scary, but sharks are also cool.

1017
00:53:55.119 --> 00:53:56.880
<v Speaker 5>I don't go in the water, and you're fine, Like

1018
00:53:56.920 --> 00:54:00.719
<v Speaker 5>that's manageable, you know, it's all well, all of the

1019
00:54:00.760 --> 00:54:03.599
<v Speaker 5>threats and fears are either not real or perfectly manageable,

1020
00:54:03.679 --> 00:54:05.199
<v Speaker 5>Versus this one where it's like, oh no, this is

1021
00:54:05.239 --> 00:54:09.159
<v Speaker 5>extremely real. Maybe the rage monsters aren't, but who knows.

1022
00:54:09.280 --> 00:54:11.519
<v Speaker 5>Maybe someone just walking down the street will decide to

1023
00:54:11.559 --> 00:54:13.719
<v Speaker 5>try to murder me on a whim and I have

1024
00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:16.199
<v Speaker 5>to We'll have to hold them down and scream while

1025
00:54:16.199 --> 00:54:19.400
<v Speaker 5>I plunge my thumbs into their eyes, and that's either

1026
00:54:19.679 --> 00:54:22.800
<v Speaker 5>kill or be killed. And that's what the world feels

1027
00:54:22.920 --> 00:54:26.920
<v Speaker 5>like to me. Is this movie this wow?

1028
00:54:27.719 --> 00:54:28.199
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

1029
00:54:28.880 --> 00:54:33.599
<v Speaker 1>So no, no, no, no no, but this is making so

1030
00:54:33.679 --> 00:54:37.559
<v Speaker 1>much sense because you compare something like that to I

1031
00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.239
<v Speaker 1>saw the TV glow, And what it sounds like we're

1032
00:54:40.280 --> 00:54:43.639
<v Speaker 1>having is one of those good old fashioned generational divides,

1033
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:48.079
<v Speaker 1>which is like the young ones even though they are

1034
00:54:48.079 --> 00:54:49.840
<v Speaker 1>not growing up in what I would at all call

1035
00:54:49.960 --> 00:54:54.119
<v Speaker 1>a benevolent world, but we've become so divided that there

1036
00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:59.400
<v Speaker 1>is a huge, thank god, faction of the world that

1037
00:54:59.639 --> 00:55:03.320
<v Speaker 1>is incredibly affirming and queer forward and all that soun

1038
00:55:03.400 --> 00:55:06.440
<v Speaker 1>it's online and you did not have that.

1039
00:55:06.719 --> 00:55:09.760
<v Speaker 2>So like if you, people are.

1040
00:55:09.639 --> 00:55:12.840
<v Speaker 1>Way more able, especially like you're saying, DJFA came out,

1041
00:55:12.920 --> 00:55:15.639
<v Speaker 1>you know, during lockdown and like a lot of this

1042
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:19.639
<v Speaker 1>kind of self focus and isolation stuff. People are better

1043
00:55:19.719 --> 00:55:23.840
<v Speaker 1>able to insulate, especially if they're in well exclusively I

1044
00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:26.519
<v Speaker 1>guess if they're in a safe area, Like if your

1045
00:55:26.559 --> 00:55:29.039
<v Speaker 1>physical form is safe because you live in like a

1046
00:55:29.159 --> 00:55:32.760
<v Speaker 1>very blue city or whatever it is, you can create

1047
00:55:33.159 --> 00:55:36.800
<v Speaker 1>a nice little safe bubble of queerness, of transness.

1048
00:55:36.840 --> 00:55:39.199
<v Speaker 2>You did not have that growing up.

1049
00:55:39.639 --> 00:55:44.760
<v Speaker 1>So a movie that exists in that bubble from a

1050
00:55:44.800 --> 00:55:47.840
<v Speaker 1>filmmaker who wrote it as part of their coming up, Like,

1051
00:55:47.880 --> 00:55:49.880
<v Speaker 1>that's not going to relate to you at all, Like

1052
00:55:49.920 --> 00:55:51.239
<v Speaker 1>you're not gonna.

1053
00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:53.760
<v Speaker 5>Especially because you know, twenty eight Days Later comes out

1054
00:55:53.800 --> 00:55:56.079
<v Speaker 5>right before nine to eleven. I see it after nine

1055
00:55:56.119 --> 00:55:57.840
<v Speaker 5>to eleven. So then we have to deal with like

1056
00:55:58.559 --> 00:56:01.719
<v Speaker 5>the uh, jingoistic raw rah put a boot in your asset.

1057
00:56:01.719 --> 00:56:05.760
<v Speaker 5>It's the American way that we view the world. So

1058
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:09.400
<v Speaker 5>the military is seen as like this extremely powerful school

1059
00:56:09.719 --> 00:56:13.079
<v Speaker 5>aspirational thing. You can't criticize the troops, and yet this

1060
00:56:13.159 --> 00:56:15.559
<v Speaker 5>movie is all like, no, the troops are evil people,

1061
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:19.559
<v Speaker 5>like they want to assert order by force, and they

1062
00:56:19.760 --> 00:56:22.239
<v Speaker 5>hate women and only see them for breeding. And it's

1063
00:56:22.239 --> 00:56:24.360
<v Speaker 5>just it came out at the exact right time where

1064
00:56:24.360 --> 00:56:26.599
<v Speaker 5>I'm like, no, but this is this feels more like

1065
00:56:26.639 --> 00:56:29.239
<v Speaker 5>what I remember the two thousands being like I saw

1066
00:56:29.239 --> 00:56:31.360
<v Speaker 5>the TV blow. It takes place in the two thousands,

1067
00:56:31.400 --> 00:56:32.480
<v Speaker 5>but it's not the two thousands.

1068
00:56:32.559 --> 00:56:35.400
<v Speaker 1>That it's written by someone who was coming who is

1069
00:56:35.800 --> 00:56:37.519
<v Speaker 1>was coming out, is coming out, someone.

1070
00:56:37.320 --> 00:56:40.400
<v Speaker 5>Who would have been there, but they were not experiencing

1071
00:56:40.440 --> 00:56:43.440
<v Speaker 5>the two thousands. It was displayed in I saw the

1072
00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:45.320
<v Speaker 5>TV glow that I remember the two thous.

1073
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:48.960
<v Speaker 1>They're writing their version of what they feel like now,

1074
00:56:49.039 --> 00:56:49.639
<v Speaker 1>but kind.

1075
00:56:49.440 --> 00:56:51.559
<v Speaker 2>Of placing it back when you were coming out. So

1076
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:54.199
<v Speaker 2>it's like, oh, that's written, So it's discordant.

1077
00:56:54.199 --> 00:56:58.480
<v Speaker 1>God, that's so fucking fascinating, and I'm not getting any

1078
00:56:58.559 --> 00:57:00.440
<v Speaker 1>You're You'll be shocked to find out I'm not hearing

1079
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:01.760
<v Speaker 1>any of that nuance online.

1080
00:57:04.000 --> 00:57:06.480
<v Speaker 5>Twitter is not a great place for that. It has

1081
00:57:06.519 --> 00:57:08.400
<v Speaker 5>a character limit. That's why I tend to not put

1082
00:57:08.440 --> 00:57:11.639
<v Speaker 5>my big thoughts on Twitter. I save them for like medium.

1083
00:57:11.679 --> 00:57:13.599
<v Speaker 5>On the rare occasion I feel like writing four thousand

1084
00:57:13.639 --> 00:57:16.159
<v Speaker 5>words on a topic because therapy is not big enough

1085
00:57:16.159 --> 00:57:17.599
<v Speaker 5>for the discussions I want to have.

1086
00:57:18.719 --> 00:57:21.840
<v Speaker 1>I'd love I have to go back and I'll have

1087
00:57:21.880 --> 00:57:24.400
<v Speaker 1>to reread the Wikipedia synopsis, and then I do want

1088
00:57:24.400 --> 00:57:26.320
<v Speaker 1>to look at your at your pieces that you wrote

1089
00:57:26.320 --> 00:57:28.280
<v Speaker 1>on this, because I am so curious about and I

1090
00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:32.719
<v Speaker 1>guess another question that I have so is so queerness

1091
00:57:33.559 --> 00:57:36.599
<v Speaker 1>primarily correct me if I'm wrong, But it feels like

1092
00:57:37.679 --> 00:57:43.559
<v Speaker 1>sexuality more than gender. Although then I think of something

1093
00:57:43.639 --> 00:57:47.320
<v Speaker 1>like Psycho and I'm like, is that kind of about gender? Like,

1094
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:50.760
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, but queerness sexuality is now queerness in.

1095
00:57:50.719 --> 00:57:53.159
<v Speaker 2>Horror gonna be looking more.

1096
00:57:53.000 --> 00:57:55.800
<v Speaker 1>At gender and transness as opposed to site like, is

1097
00:57:55.800 --> 00:57:57.440
<v Speaker 1>that where horror is going?

1098
00:57:57.519 --> 00:57:58.679
<v Speaker 2>Is this the first one of that?

1099
00:57:59.239 --> 00:58:01.719
<v Speaker 5>Is this a dumb clas It is not a dumb question,

1100
00:58:01.760 --> 00:58:07.000
<v Speaker 5>that's an excellent question. So I think that gender so

1101
00:58:07.039 --> 00:58:11.239
<v Speaker 5>horror as a genre is not the kindest genre to gender.

1102
00:58:12.119 --> 00:58:15.559
<v Speaker 5>I would argue it's probably the meanest genre in terms

1103
00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:19.119
<v Speaker 5>of discussing transnis in general, and that includes sex comedies.

1104
00:58:21.199 --> 00:58:24.760
<v Speaker 5>Dating back to Alfred Hitchcock's Murder, there have been like

1105
00:58:24.880 --> 00:58:27.519
<v Speaker 5>the cross dressing killer type. It got much more famous

1106
00:58:27.519 --> 00:58:31.760
<v Speaker 5>with Psycho and a million Psycho knockoffs. You had Brian

1107
00:58:31.800 --> 00:58:34.480
<v Speaker 5>de Palmer essentially remaking Psycho in nineteen eighty with Dressed

1108
00:58:34.480 --> 00:58:36.159
<v Speaker 5>to Kill. You got Silence of the Lambs about a

1109
00:58:36.199 --> 00:58:40.440
<v Speaker 5>decade later, and that went into the Library of Congress

1110
00:58:40.480 --> 00:58:42.800
<v Speaker 5>and won like every Academy award. So it's seen as

1111
00:58:42.840 --> 00:58:46.480
<v Speaker 5>like culturally really really important, and it is all these

1112
00:58:46.480 --> 00:58:51.719
<v Speaker 5>films have queerness being processed through straight people. That's oftentimes

1113
00:58:51.760 --> 00:58:57.000
<v Speaker 5>where the trans or gender bending of a monster kinds

1114
00:58:57.039 --> 00:59:00.280
<v Speaker 5>of comes into play. It's almost exclusively straight syce men

1115
00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:03.760
<v Speaker 5>doing this. You know, well, we'll say, we'll put quotes

1116
00:59:03.760 --> 00:59:05.880
<v Speaker 5>on that, and maybe the case of Alfred Hitchcock, but

1117
00:59:05.920 --> 00:59:09.280
<v Speaker 5>you know it is what, you know, we'll leave that there.

1118
00:59:10.719 --> 00:59:13.199
<v Speaker 5>Right about now is when you're starting to see prominent

1119
00:59:13.280 --> 00:59:16.880
<v Speaker 5>examples of transn's displayed in horror as like a literal,

1120
00:59:16.960 --> 00:59:20.480
<v Speaker 5>tangible thing and it coming from queer voices. There there

1121
00:59:20.519 --> 00:59:24.840
<v Speaker 5>are outlier liars like Richard O'Brien wrote Rocky Horror Picture Show,

1122
00:59:24.880 --> 00:59:28.280
<v Speaker 5>and Richard O'Brien is, you know, a very old gay

1123
00:59:28.400 --> 00:59:33.119
<v Speaker 5>who has been on hormones and doing they are his

1124
00:59:33.239 --> 00:59:36.360
<v Speaker 5>own gender journey for a lot. And I love Richard

1125
00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:39.960
<v Speaker 5>O'Brien for all of this. Yeah, so there's been examples

1126
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:43.880
<v Speaker 5>of this, but they are few and far between. I

1127
00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:46.079
<v Speaker 5>think that one of the reasons we're seeing it right

1128
00:59:46.079 --> 00:59:49.920
<v Speaker 5>now is that it's becoming much more normalized, but also

1129
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:52.760
<v Speaker 5>because of the increasing hostility towards trans people, it is

1130
00:59:54.199 --> 00:59:57.000
<v Speaker 5>an exciting thing for people to have as a as

1131
00:59:57.039 --> 01:00:00.639
<v Speaker 5>a storytelling element, whether that be like Hunter Schaeffer in

1132
01:00:00.880 --> 01:00:04.960
<v Speaker 5>Cuckoo coming out this year, and that movie Hunter Shaffer

1133
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:07.559
<v Speaker 5>does not play a trans character, but Hunter Schaeffer is trans,

1134
01:00:07.599 --> 01:00:12.199
<v Speaker 5>so therefore the film itself, yeah trans sheen to it? Yeah?

1135
01:00:12.320 --> 01:00:14.519
<v Speaker 2>Is that the Dan Stevens one, Yes, and he.

1136
01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:16.199
<v Speaker 5>Is such a little weirdo in it.

1137
01:00:16.280 --> 01:00:19.880
<v Speaker 2>I love Okay, Okay, cool cool cool.

1138
01:00:20.239 --> 01:00:21.920
<v Speaker 5>So you start to get stuff like that. You get

1139
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.079
<v Speaker 5>Jamie Clayton in the Hell with Razor remake, you have

1140
01:00:26.679 --> 01:00:30.000
<v Speaker 5>Sam Levinson's Assassination Nation, which is kind of horror adjacent,

1141
01:00:30.119 --> 01:00:30.920
<v Speaker 5>but you get horror.

1142
01:00:31.480 --> 01:00:33.920
<v Speaker 2>Yes, I forgot about that one.

1143
01:00:34.440 --> 01:00:37.800
<v Speaker 5>Okay, is eventually a horror movie because it's basically the purge.

1144
01:00:38.000 --> 01:00:38.159
<v Speaker 2>Yeah.

1145
01:00:38.199 --> 01:00:41.440
<v Speaker 4>There's also there's trans masculine characters in Talk to Me

1146
01:00:41.639 --> 01:00:43.199
<v Speaker 4>and Evils and Rise, like.

1147
01:00:43.199 --> 01:00:44.639
<v Speaker 5>Oh my god, Evil dece is so good.

1148
01:00:44.840 --> 01:00:47.559
<v Speaker 4>Evil Dress is very fun. So the thing though, too,

1149
01:00:47.719 --> 01:00:50.960
<v Speaker 4>is that with horror, especially especially when it comes to gender,

1150
01:00:51.039 --> 01:00:53.679
<v Speaker 4>if it wasn't like cross dressing killer tropes, which are

1151
01:00:53.880 --> 01:00:58.519
<v Speaker 4>you know, yeah, that's its own category to even discuss.

1152
01:00:58.599 --> 01:01:03.079
<v Speaker 4>But there is also so many trans reads that can

1153
01:01:03.119 --> 01:01:06.000
<v Speaker 4>be made to a lot of horror movies. A lot

1154
01:01:06.000 --> 01:01:10.519
<v Speaker 4>of body horror movies can be read as trans Werewolf

1155
01:01:10.599 --> 01:01:16.440
<v Speaker 4>movies are often read as trans Like Zoe Luna, who

1156
01:01:16.519 --> 01:01:19.599
<v Speaker 4>is a transactor. She was in like the Craft Legacy,

1157
01:01:19.639 --> 01:01:21.519
<v Speaker 4>She's been in a bunch of stuff. She has talked

1158
01:01:21.519 --> 01:01:24.559
<v Speaker 4>about how the werewolf movie Ginger Snaps, which a lot

1159
01:01:24.559 --> 01:01:26.559
<v Speaker 4>of people look at as like this is like a

1160
01:01:26.639 --> 01:01:29.119
<v Speaker 4>very feminist werewolf movie, which it is because it's about

1161
01:01:29.159 --> 01:01:32.000
<v Speaker 4>two sisters. But there's a scene in there where after

1162
01:01:33.800 --> 01:01:36.679
<v Speaker 4>the main girl is attacked by a werewolf, she starts

1163
01:01:36.719 --> 01:01:41.079
<v Speaker 4>growing a tale and yeah, and like body hair, and

1164
01:01:41.119 --> 01:01:44.239
<v Speaker 4>she and her sister are like trying to find ways

1165
01:01:44.280 --> 01:01:47.199
<v Speaker 4>to hide the tail and hide the hair that she's growing.

1166
01:01:47.719 --> 01:01:51.079
<v Speaker 4>And Zoe has talked about how like watching that scene,

1167
01:01:51.119 --> 01:01:53.840
<v Speaker 4>she's like, oh, yeah, that's what dysphoria feels like to me.

1168
01:01:54.320 --> 01:01:57.440
<v Speaker 4>And so there's all these really rich reads that can

1169
01:01:57.480 --> 01:02:00.760
<v Speaker 4>be found within a lot of the text. And I

1170
01:02:00.840 --> 01:02:03.880
<v Speaker 4>go back and forth on this because obviously, like canonical

1171
01:02:03.920 --> 01:02:07.119
<v Speaker 4>representation is very very important, but I also think that

1172
01:02:07.159 --> 01:02:11.840
<v Speaker 4>something is lost when we don't allow for like reads,

1173
01:02:12.960 --> 01:02:15.760
<v Speaker 4>because there are some like a movie like Jennifer's Body,

1174
01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:20.239
<v Speaker 4>for example, Jennifer's Body is very clearly like a bisexual movie.

1175
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:24.679
<v Speaker 4>Jennifer is a bisexual. We know this, she goes both ways.

1176
01:02:25.079 --> 01:02:28.599
<v Speaker 4>We know this about her, but she never says out loud,

1177
01:02:29.079 --> 01:02:32.119
<v Speaker 4>I am bisexual. And I think that is a good thing,

1178
01:02:32.400 --> 01:02:36.840
<v Speaker 4>because then this character also then can be read as like, okay,

1179
01:02:36.880 --> 01:02:39.639
<v Speaker 4>but maybe she is just like a high fem lesbian

1180
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:42.719
<v Speaker 4>who's experiencing a little bit of compet and that's why

1181
01:02:42.760 --> 01:02:46.079
<v Speaker 4>she's still fucking meant for fun, which is exactly what I.

1182
01:02:46.000 --> 01:02:48.880
<v Speaker 1>Did in Good Yeah, Oh my god, Oh this is

1183
01:02:49.000 --> 01:02:49.880
<v Speaker 1>fascinating and so.

1184
01:02:51.400 --> 01:02:54.639
<v Speaker 4>And so when you don't have somebody say like, hi,

1185
01:02:55.119 --> 01:02:58.440
<v Speaker 4>my name is you know, Jordan, and I am a

1186
01:02:58.760 --> 01:03:03.760
<v Speaker 4>non binary, DEMI, bisexual or whatever, then that allows people

1187
01:03:03.840 --> 01:03:07.800
<v Speaker 4>who identify outside of those labels to also see themselves

1188
01:03:07.800 --> 01:03:11.320
<v Speaker 4>in these characters, because the more specific you get, the

1189
01:03:11.360 --> 01:03:15.199
<v Speaker 4>more isolating these characters become. Which is, you know, Harmony

1190
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:18.159
<v Speaker 4>and I wrote a book, uh, Sleepwoy Camp Fordidi Books,

1191
01:03:18.519 --> 01:03:22.079
<v Speaker 4>and sleep Away Camp is considered to be like the

1192
01:03:22.679 --> 01:03:25.599
<v Speaker 4>you know, kind of the grandmother of a lot of

1193
01:03:25.719 --> 01:03:30.280
<v Speaker 4>trans horror because Angela Baker spoiler alert for a forty

1194
01:03:30.360 --> 01:03:33.199
<v Speaker 4>year old movie, but the end of Sleepway Camp reveals

1195
01:03:33.199 --> 01:03:36.119
<v Speaker 4>that Angela Baker, Oh my god, she's a boy, and

1196
01:03:36.159 --> 01:03:40.760
<v Speaker 4>you see full frontal nudity. And so because they never

1197
01:03:40.920 --> 01:03:44.159
<v Speaker 4>say until the second and third movies, then Angela does

1198
01:03:44.239 --> 01:03:47.920
<v Speaker 4>canonically become a trans woman and transitions fully. But in

1199
01:03:47.960 --> 01:03:51.760
<v Speaker 4>this first movie, because they never say Angela is a

1200
01:03:51.800 --> 01:03:55.960
<v Speaker 4>trans character, there are so many people who are able

1201
01:03:55.960 --> 01:03:58.599
<v Speaker 4>to interpret, like, I think this character is non binary.

1202
01:03:58.639 --> 01:04:01.800
<v Speaker 4>It's somebody who is dealing with, like, you know, multiple

1203
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:04.679
<v Speaker 4>experiences of gender or a lack of gender completely. The

1204
01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:07.840
<v Speaker 4>trans woman read is obviously way more obvious. But then

1205
01:04:07.840 --> 01:04:09.920
<v Speaker 4>I've also even seen people say, like, I think that

1206
01:04:09.960 --> 01:04:12.559
<v Speaker 4>this is a trans masque story because it's about a

1207
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:14.760
<v Speaker 4>boy in the you know what, in a body that

1208
01:04:14.840 --> 01:04:16.840
<v Speaker 4>is perceived as a woman by everybody else, fighting to

1209
01:04:16.880 --> 01:04:20.239
<v Speaker 4>get out, and all of those reads POQ will wait

1210
01:04:20.480 --> 01:04:23.280
<v Speaker 4>because the movie never gives you a definitive answer. And

1211
01:04:23.360 --> 01:04:25.000
<v Speaker 4>so that's one of the things we write about in

1212
01:04:25.000 --> 01:04:27.360
<v Speaker 4>our book is how like all of the reads and

1213
01:04:27.400 --> 01:04:31.440
<v Speaker 4>interpretations people have of this story, they're all kind of right,

1214
01:04:31.800 --> 01:04:36.119
<v Speaker 4>because a read is just an interpretation. It's not the

1215
01:04:36.159 --> 01:04:38.679
<v Speaker 4>definitive answer of like, what is happening in this movie?

1216
01:04:39.239 --> 01:04:42.559
<v Speaker 4>And so I think it's like such a juicy movie

1217
01:04:42.559 --> 01:04:44.800
<v Speaker 4>to talk about because of that, because it means so

1218
01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:47.920
<v Speaker 4>much to so many different people, and I wish that

1219
01:04:47.960 --> 01:04:51.280
<v Speaker 4>we had more of that in Horror, but because everybody's like,

1220
01:04:51.599 --> 01:04:54.880
<v Speaker 4>you need to define exactly what this character is otherwise

1221
01:04:54.880 --> 01:04:55.880
<v Speaker 4>it's weird.

1222
01:04:55.559 --> 01:04:59.760
<v Speaker 2>Baiting, like the period of Drenched.

1223
01:05:00.239 --> 01:05:02.880
<v Speaker 1>This is so interesting because what it is is, this

1224
01:05:02.920 --> 01:05:05.800
<v Speaker 1>is what society, our queer culture is really going through

1225
01:05:05.920 --> 01:05:09.800
<v Speaker 1>right now, is the push and pull of the importance

1226
01:05:10.280 --> 01:05:13.480
<v Speaker 1>and validation of like when people say, oh my god,

1227
01:05:13.519 --> 01:05:16.320
<v Speaker 1>when that character said in episode five out loud, like

1228
01:05:16.440 --> 01:05:17.280
<v Speaker 1>I'm a lesbian.

1229
01:05:17.360 --> 01:05:20.400
<v Speaker 2>That was so incredibly meaningful to me, like she named it,

1230
01:05:20.480 --> 01:05:21.000
<v Speaker 2>she said it.

1231
01:05:21.199 --> 01:05:23.760
<v Speaker 1>So we have that side of things, and then we

1232
01:05:23.840 --> 01:05:26.519
<v Speaker 1>have the side of things you're talking about, and those

1233
01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:27.679
<v Speaker 1>two things they.

1234
01:05:27.519 --> 01:05:30.320
<v Speaker 9>Don't have to necessarily be at odds, but right now,

1235
01:05:30.360 --> 01:05:34.000
<v Speaker 9>at least online, they're so at odds, like they feel

1236
01:05:34.000 --> 01:05:37.039
<v Speaker 9>like two like warring, like West Side story style, and

1237
01:05:37.039 --> 01:05:39.199
<v Speaker 9>it's like they don't have to, like there's room for both,

1238
01:05:39.280 --> 01:05:42.679
<v Speaker 9>but everyone's very entrenched in their own opinions right now, shockingly,

1239
01:05:43.039 --> 01:05:47.440
<v Speaker 9>So that's really interesting to hear that. It's like your

1240
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:50.559
<v Speaker 9>preference for leaving it open versus some people who so

1241
01:05:50.920 --> 01:05:54.119
<v Speaker 9>want to hear the word that they they want to

1242
01:05:54.159 --> 01:05:57.280
<v Speaker 9>hear their micro label, not you the inside of micro label,

1243
01:05:57.360 --> 01:06:00.480
<v Speaker 9>but they want to hear their micro label set out loud.

1244
01:06:01.039 --> 01:06:02.880
<v Speaker 2>It's God, that's a really.

1245
01:06:02.519 --> 01:06:06.280
<v Speaker 1>Interesting like tension going on right now in general.

1246
01:06:06.840 --> 01:06:10.119
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I think part of it is that, like we

1247
01:06:10.280 --> 01:06:14.480
<v Speaker 5>have a wealth of spoils right now, Like there are

1248
01:06:14.880 --> 01:06:17.280
<v Speaker 5>so many queer things that are so clearly defined as

1249
01:06:17.320 --> 01:06:20.519
<v Speaker 5>queer things, whereas back in you know, you know, the nineties,

1250
01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:22.599
<v Speaker 5>two thousands, when we were growing up, there were so

1251
01:06:22.679 --> 01:06:24.880
<v Speaker 5>many things that weren't and you kind of had to

1252
01:06:24.920 --> 01:06:27.679
<v Speaker 5>get clever about it, or or.

1253
01:06:27.639 --> 01:06:28.639
<v Speaker 2>Wait till Sweeps Week.

1254
01:06:28.760 --> 01:06:31.119
<v Speaker 1>It was two weeks of sweets Week and the girls

1255
01:06:31.159 --> 01:06:32.960
<v Speaker 1>kissed in the hot tub and you were like, that's

1256
01:06:33.199 --> 01:06:34.400
<v Speaker 1>it for the year, yep.

1257
01:06:34.800 --> 01:06:36.559
<v Speaker 5>Or you would get something where it's like okay, people

1258
01:06:36.679 --> 01:06:39.079
<v Speaker 5>were like, oh my god, that genderbent episode of Johnny

1259
01:06:39.079 --> 01:06:42.119
<v Speaker 5>test and I'm like, well, that's a generational divide. I

1260
01:06:42.159 --> 01:06:45.880
<v Speaker 5>remember watching the video for the Fertelli's Chelsea Dagger, and

1261
01:06:45.920 --> 01:06:47.920
<v Speaker 5>this is part where it flashes between the singer of

1262
01:06:47.960 --> 01:06:51.840
<v Speaker 5>the band and this hot burlesque lady and they're wearing

1263
01:06:51.880 --> 01:06:56.440
<v Speaker 5>the same outfit and it's like, huh, that's interesting. Yeah,

1264
01:06:56.840 --> 01:06:57.639
<v Speaker 5>that's kind of it.

1265
01:06:58.199 --> 01:07:00.719
<v Speaker 1>That was the extent. Oh my god, yeah yeah, Wed,

1266
01:07:00.840 --> 01:07:03.119
<v Speaker 1>this really does. It makes me feel like a crotchety

1267
01:07:03.239 --> 01:07:06.679
<v Speaker 1>elder queer, which I feel like often or honestly most

1268
01:07:06.679 --> 01:07:09.960
<v Speaker 1>of the time nowadays. So this is validating from my identity,

1269
01:07:10.239 --> 01:07:11.480
<v Speaker 1>my micro label of.

1270
01:07:11.400 --> 01:07:13.119
<v Speaker 2>A quat the elder queer.

1271
01:07:14.760 --> 01:07:15.280
<v Speaker 1>Yo.

1272
01:07:15.320 --> 01:07:16.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm keeping an eye on the time.

1273
01:07:16.519 --> 01:07:20.119
<v Speaker 1>So before we wrap up, I want to, obviously I

1274
01:07:20.159 --> 01:07:22.840
<v Speaker 1>want you both to plug your podcast your book and

1275
01:07:22.880 --> 01:07:25.480
<v Speaker 1>say where you can individually be followed. But is there

1276
01:07:25.519 --> 01:07:28.599
<v Speaker 1>anything we didn't cover that you want to like, any

1277
01:07:28.639 --> 01:07:30.159
<v Speaker 1>movies you want to shout out that we didn't get

1278
01:07:30.199 --> 01:07:32.719
<v Speaker 1>to or something, or just like any yeah, any queer

1279
01:07:32.719 --> 01:07:35.440
<v Speaker 1>horror stuff that we didn't sort of touch on before

1280
01:07:36.199 --> 01:07:36.840
<v Speaker 1>before we go.

1281
01:07:37.559 --> 01:07:40.400
<v Speaker 5>I mean, there's so so many things I'm bad at

1282
01:07:40.440 --> 01:07:43.679
<v Speaker 5>recalling movies just on a whim like that. Let's just

1283
01:07:43.719 --> 01:07:46.320
<v Speaker 5>say Angel, Angel's the best movie you ever made. And

1284
01:07:46.320 --> 01:07:48.480
<v Speaker 5>that's probably not true, but I say it, and I'm

1285
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:50.320
<v Speaker 5>not going to stop saying it. Angel's best movie you

1286
01:07:50.320 --> 01:07:51.639
<v Speaker 5>ever made.

1287
01:07:51.719 --> 01:07:53.400
<v Speaker 4>And I've never heard of it.

1288
01:07:53.400 --> 01:07:56.599
<v Speaker 5>It's from nineteen eighty three, It's about a teenage girl

1289
01:07:56.639 --> 01:07:59.239
<v Speaker 5>who works the streets. The tagline for the movie is

1290
01:07:59.280 --> 01:08:01.440
<v Speaker 5>on a role student by day, Hollywood hooker by night,

1291
01:08:01.920 --> 01:08:05.679
<v Speaker 5>and she ends up being befriended. It's something. She gets

1292
01:08:05.679 --> 01:08:10.559
<v Speaker 5>befriended by an old drag queen and or transsex worker

1293
01:08:10.679 --> 01:08:13.119
<v Speaker 5>named May who's modeled after May West, and you never

1294
01:08:13.159 --> 01:08:15.440
<v Speaker 5>say explicitly what she is, because again we go with

1295
01:08:15.519 --> 01:08:20.199
<v Speaker 5>loose definition, and they're best friends, surrogate family with like

1296
01:08:20.399 --> 01:08:23.399
<v Speaker 5>a senile old cowboy who does like signings and tricks

1297
01:08:23.399 --> 01:08:27.800
<v Speaker 5>on the Hollywood strip named Kit Carson. You have an

1298
01:08:27.840 --> 01:08:30.479
<v Speaker 5>old landlord who's a lesbian with two sets of eyebrows

1299
01:08:30.800 --> 01:08:34.840
<v Speaker 5>that smokes and yells at May, and they bicker like

1300
01:08:34.880 --> 01:08:36.680
<v Speaker 5>an old married couple despite the fact that they're both

1301
01:08:36.680 --> 01:08:40.239
<v Speaker 5>clearly gay and just best friends. And also there's a

1302
01:08:40.279 --> 01:08:43.039
<v Speaker 5>serial killer who's trying to kill sex workers, and that's

1303
01:08:43.159 --> 01:08:44.399
<v Speaker 5>kind of what the horror of the movie it is.

1304
01:08:44.560 --> 01:08:46.079
<v Speaker 2>That's what the eighties was in general.

1305
01:08:46.119 --> 01:08:48.359
<v Speaker 1>I feel like like there's always a serial killer trying

1306
01:08:48.359 --> 01:08:49.199
<v Speaker 1>to kill sex workers.

1307
01:08:49.319 --> 01:08:52.239
<v Speaker 4>Unfortunate about how but.

1308
01:08:52.159 --> 01:08:54.760
<v Speaker 5>It's about friendship and it's looking out for each other.

1309
01:08:54.840 --> 01:08:57.159
<v Speaker 5>People of the Knights looking out for each other, protecting

1310
01:08:57.199 --> 01:09:00.800
<v Speaker 5>each other that you don't need. You know, cops don't

1311
01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:04.159
<v Speaker 5>have any feelings because they're just damn dirty cops. And like,

1312
01:09:05.000 --> 01:09:07.960
<v Speaker 5>this movie's marvelous. Is the best movies, every very cool,

1313
01:09:08.000 --> 01:09:10.800
<v Speaker 5>super tight script. And also queer people get the chance

1314
01:09:10.880 --> 01:09:13.079
<v Speaker 5>to actually fight for their lives and stand a chance.

1315
01:09:13.119 --> 01:09:15.279
<v Speaker 5>And I just appreciate that, even if it doesn't always

1316
01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:15.840
<v Speaker 5>work out. Right.

1317
01:09:16.279 --> 01:09:19.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I love that, Okay, and shall all right? Thank you.

1318
01:09:19.880 --> 01:09:22.479
<v Speaker 4>Then the movie that I'm going to recommend because the

1319
01:09:22.520 --> 01:09:24.359
<v Speaker 4>last time I was on here I talked about bit

1320
01:09:25.560 --> 01:09:29.399
<v Speaker 4>Yeah everyone has since scene. But a movie that I

1321
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.560
<v Speaker 4>highly recommend everyone check out is actually a documentary and

1322
01:09:32.600 --> 01:09:36.600
<v Speaker 4>it is called Scream Comma Queen. So Scream Queen and

1323
01:09:36.880 --> 01:09:42.279
<v Speaker 4>the documentary, Yeah, the posters behind Harmony's said, but it

1324
01:09:42.359 --> 01:09:45.399
<v Speaker 4>is a documentary about the actor Mark Patton, who plays

1325
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:48.039
<v Speaker 4>Jesse Walsh in a Nightmare and Elm Street Part two

1326
01:09:48.199 --> 01:09:51.319
<v Speaker 4>Freddy's Revenge namer An Elm Street Part two. Freddy's Revenge

1327
01:09:51.520 --> 01:09:56.800
<v Speaker 4>is very much a gay movie. Freddy is essentially an

1328
01:09:56.840 --> 01:10:00.720
<v Speaker 4>allegory for gay feelings and keeping them closeted.

1329
01:10:01.600 --> 01:10:02.439
<v Speaker 2>Oh, I didn't know that.

1330
01:10:02.479 --> 01:10:04.720
<v Speaker 1>We gotta do a whole other episode.

1331
01:10:05.159 --> 01:10:07.920
<v Speaker 4>Oh, yeah, Freddy is also a drag character. If people

1332
01:10:07.920 --> 01:10:10.680
<v Speaker 4>don't know that, Freddy Krueger is Robert England's drag character,

1333
01:10:10.800 --> 01:10:13.920
<v Speaker 4>the same way that Elvira is Cassandra Peterson's drag character.

1334
01:10:14.039 --> 01:10:15.880
<v Speaker 2>But okay, this is wild.

1335
01:10:16.239 --> 01:10:20.800
<v Speaker 4>But Nightmare Part two is equal parts a gay movie

1336
01:10:20.800 --> 01:10:26.239
<v Speaker 4>and an extremely homophobic movie. And they and they cast

1337
01:10:26.920 --> 01:10:29.840
<v Speaker 4>Mark Patten in this role, who was gay and was

1338
01:10:29.880 --> 01:10:33.000
<v Speaker 4>not out at the time, and the documentary is about

1339
01:10:33.079 --> 01:10:35.640
<v Speaker 4>how playing this role has been both the best and

1340
01:10:35.720 --> 01:10:38.800
<v Speaker 4>worst thing that ever happened to him, because it was

1341
01:10:38.880 --> 01:10:40.960
<v Speaker 4>great in that it helped a lot of other people

1342
01:10:41.119 --> 01:10:44.279
<v Speaker 4>like see themselves and come out and whatever. But also

1343
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:47.600
<v Speaker 4>this movie kind of ruined his career because then everybody

1344
01:10:47.640 --> 01:10:50.800
<v Speaker 4>was like, oh, you're that gay guy from that gay movie.

1345
01:10:51.279 --> 01:10:52.119
<v Speaker 5>In the eighties.

1346
01:10:52.239 --> 01:10:55.520
<v Speaker 4>In the eighties, and Mark Patten, luckily is still with

1347
01:10:55.600 --> 01:10:58.800
<v Speaker 4>us to this day. He is, you know, living with aids,

1348
01:10:58.920 --> 01:11:01.479
<v Speaker 4>but live in his best life, you know, the best

1349
01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:04.119
<v Speaker 4>of his ability, which is you know, very interesting. But

1350
01:11:04.960 --> 01:11:09.159
<v Speaker 4>the documentary is fantastic and I highly recommend it, and

1351
01:11:09.439 --> 01:11:12.600
<v Speaker 4>it's a great piece of learning about queer horror history.

1352
01:11:13.439 --> 01:11:18.479
<v Speaker 1>Oh god, these are great recommendations. Thank you so much. Okay,

1353
01:11:18.520 --> 01:11:23.520
<v Speaker 1>and where can people find you both individually and listen

1354
01:11:23.560 --> 01:11:24.439
<v Speaker 1>to your podcast?

1355
01:11:24.600 --> 01:11:26.319
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, and the book that we mentioned.

1356
01:11:27.239 --> 01:11:31.359
<v Speaker 4>Sure, So I write every day at slash Film. I

1357
01:11:31.399 --> 01:11:34.319
<v Speaker 4>also have an article in the most recent issue of

1358
01:11:34.640 --> 01:11:37.439
<v Speaker 4>Thangoriam magazine. It's the one with art the clown just

1359
01:11:37.560 --> 01:11:39.159
<v Speaker 4>like Santa on the cover if you find it on

1360
01:11:39.199 --> 01:11:42.479
<v Speaker 4>your newsstands, which is exciting and fun. But This Ends

1361
01:11:42.520 --> 01:11:44.159
<v Speaker 4>Up Prom is the show that Harmony and I do

1362
01:11:44.199 --> 01:11:46.680
<v Speaker 4>where we talk about coming of age stories about or

1363
01:11:46.720 --> 01:11:49.520
<v Speaker 4>marketed towards teen girl audiences. You can find it where're

1364
01:11:49.680 --> 01:11:52.640
<v Speaker 4>you get your podcasts. We have a Patreon, Patreon dot com,

1365
01:11:52.640 --> 01:11:55.439
<v Speaker 4>backslash This endp prom all forms of social media at

1366
01:11:55.479 --> 01:11:57.159
<v Speaker 4>This Ends Up Prom, and I'm on all forms of

1367
01:11:57.239 --> 01:11:59.920
<v Speaker 4>social media at my name BJ Colangelo.

1368
01:12:00.920 --> 01:12:03.920
<v Speaker 5>BJ is so good at plugging stuff I write occasionally,

1369
01:12:04.039 --> 01:12:05.760
<v Speaker 5>but in the event that you see it, you'll see

1370
01:12:05.760 --> 01:12:07.359
<v Speaker 5>it on social media. It's not it doesn't have a

1371
01:12:07.359 --> 01:12:11.760
<v Speaker 5>home like slash film, but I'm around at Instagram and Twitter,

1372
01:12:11.840 --> 01:12:17.319
<v Speaker 5>at Veloca, trapter on places. BJ does mostly the online stuff,

1373
01:12:17.720 --> 01:12:21.760
<v Speaker 5>as if you've not learned from this episode, online as.

1374
01:12:21.760 --> 01:12:27.199
<v Speaker 4>Harmony is chronically offline that is, which is God's the

1375
01:12:27.239 --> 01:12:28.800
<v Speaker 4>better of us for the.

1376
01:12:28.880 --> 01:12:32.000
<v Speaker 5>Yeah, I would rather have solitude than the internet yelling.

1377
01:12:32.520 --> 01:12:36.359
<v Speaker 1>That is such a wise, wise choice that I have

1378
01:12:36.520 --> 01:12:37.840
<v Speaker 1>not made.

1379
01:12:38.359 --> 01:12:41.800
<v Speaker 4>Our book is available at Die Die Books or you

1380
01:12:41.840 --> 01:12:45.399
<v Speaker 4>can get the e reader version at Amazon for the kindle.

1381
01:12:46.560 --> 01:12:51.960
<v Speaker 4>But sleep Away Camp is in a very fun academic

1382
01:12:52.000 --> 01:12:53.359
<v Speaker 4>text is the way that I'll put it, Like, you're

1383
01:12:53.359 --> 01:12:54.880
<v Speaker 4>going to learn something about history.

1384
01:12:55.199 --> 01:12:56.960
<v Speaker 5>You're going to learn deep in this movie.

1385
01:12:57.159 --> 01:13:00.800
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, about how this movie has been you know, reclaimed

1386
01:13:00.920 --> 01:13:04.680
<v Speaker 4>and you know rejected across you know, depending on whatever's

1387
01:13:04.720 --> 01:13:06.479
<v Speaker 4>going on politically. That seems to be how people feel

1388
01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:10.960
<v Speaker 4>about this movie. And there well, there are also the

1389
01:13:10.960 --> 01:13:14.279
<v Speaker 4>two final chapters in this book are purely written by harmony,

1390
01:13:14.399 --> 01:13:17.000
<v Speaker 4>and I think that that is worth the cost of

1391
01:13:17.039 --> 01:13:22.119
<v Speaker 4>the book itself talking about because I believe it and

1392
01:13:22.199 --> 01:13:25.479
<v Speaker 4>it's about you know, transness in horror and also how

1393
01:13:25.640 --> 01:13:29.880
<v Speaker 4>people in horror treat transcritics and trans voices. So yeah,

1394
01:13:30.000 --> 01:13:32.239
<v Speaker 4>Ddie books dot com is where you can get it.

1395
01:13:32.600 --> 01:13:33.279
<v Speaker 2>Very cool.

1396
01:13:33.680 --> 01:13:37.880
<v Speaker 1>Okay, oh my gosh, and I as you know at

1397
01:13:37.960 --> 01:13:41.640
<v Speaker 1>Lauren Flans on Twitter and Blue Sky Lauren underscar Plans

1398
01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:45.479
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram. Uh. The pod is at Coming Up pot everywhere. Hey,

1399
01:13:45.560 --> 01:13:49.840
<v Speaker 1>you can write a review on iTunes or I think Spotify.

1400
01:13:49.399 --> 01:13:50.399
<v Speaker 2>Lets you write reviews.

1401
01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:54.079
<v Speaker 1>Now. You can certainly look at that we are evolving.

1402
01:13:54.399 --> 01:14:00.239
<v Speaker 1>You can certainly given five stars. That's even easier. And yeah, yeah,

1403
01:14:00.239 --> 01:14:03.199
<v Speaker 1>everybody a very happy and.

1404
01:14:03.359 --> 01:14:04.920
<v Speaker 2>Very queer Halloween.

1405
01:14:06.279 --> 01:14:09.279
<v Speaker 1>Thank you Bost so much. This was an absolute blast.

1406
01:14:09.760 --> 01:14:13.359
<v Speaker 1>Anti y'all listening, I will yeah, I'll see you the next.

1407
01:14:13.239 --> 01:14:13.880
<v Speaker 2>Time I see you.

1408
01:14:14.239 --> 01:14:16.640
<v Speaker 1>I want to do a post election episode. So that

1409
01:14:16.760 --> 01:14:20.039
<v Speaker 1>is that is the current plan for whatever happens. I

1410
01:14:20.079 --> 01:14:27.920
<v Speaker 1>would like to talk about it on the podcast. All right, y'all, Happy, happy,

1411
01:14:27.920 --> 01:14:34.359
<v Speaker 1>spooky Halloween, and see you next time. Bye.