Speaker 1: Ready, get ready for.
Speaker 2: September seventh, twenty twenty five, allegedly according to that thing
Speaker 2: we call a calendar, this the o'celly effect. Of course,
Speaker 2: you know that because you found it, and we are
Speaker 2: not as easy to find as we used to be. Anyway,
Speaker 2: it's Sunday, and I don't usually do live broadcasts on
Speaker 2: a Sunday, but this is one, and I think it
Speaker 2: is absolutely necessary to get to why. I've got kind
Speaker 2: of an unusual guest for me. I haven't had him
Speaker 2: on before, and even though he's been on a few
Speaker 2: other podcasts. Look, I don't think the world knows about
Speaker 2: him as much as they need to. How about that?
Speaker 2: Why do I say this? Paul Abbott is someone who
Speaker 2: has studied the JFK assassination aspects let's say, connected to
Speaker 2: the assassination in detail. And if you decide you want
Speaker 2: to follow up, in the show notes, you'll find links
Speaker 2: to you know, the death Okay, ready for this Death
Speaker 2: of Justice? All right? And there's a podcast, there is
Speaker 2: a substack. There is guess what a website okay, which
Speaker 2: looks like it says Deathojustice dot com, which I kind
Speaker 2: of appreciate. Right there, that's an interesting short But anyway,
Speaker 2: there'll be links in the show notes you'll be able
Speaker 2: to follow through. And also, I guess I'll get to
Speaker 2: this at the beginning of the show, just so I
Speaker 2: don't forget. Later November in Dallas the Lancer Conference, Paul
Speaker 2: Abbott will be there in person and presenting, and I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward to his presentation. Now. Of course, if you
Speaker 2: go to Assassination Conference dot com, you can sign up
Speaker 2: if you use the discount code Ocelle ten. Whether you're
Speaker 2: going to be there in person or online, you can
Speaker 2: attend off. And if you're going there in person, it's
Speaker 2: going to be at the Fairmont Dallas Hotel, which is
Speaker 2: at seventeen seventeen North ackerd Street, Dallas, Texas, which is
Speaker 2: conveniently located near the Plaza. So anyway, now that I've
Speaker 2: gotten all the ads and all of the references and
Speaker 2: told you go look at the show notes because most
Speaker 2: of you will catch the podcast. Anyway, go look at
Speaker 2: the show notes and you can follow up on Paul's work.
Speaker 2: Let's get to the conversation. So first of all, I
Speaker 2: know you're on the other side of the world, so
Speaker 2: to speak, and it's probably a different day than it
Speaker 2: is here. See for me, it's Sunday the seventh. I
Speaker 2: don't know, is it still Sunday there?
Speaker 3: No, Chuck, it's Monday morning. So yeah, it's the term
Speaker 3: difference is always is an interesting thing to.
Speaker 2: Ne Goshat absolutely so, almost speaking to us from the future.
Speaker 2: I'm joking, but literally speaking. You know, he'd have to
Speaker 2: mark his calendar and his clock a certain way and
Speaker 2: it would be Monday or so. All right, anyway, enough
Speaker 2: of the jokes and enough of all that, let's get
Speaker 2: to the serious Australian question, which is this. Look, it's
Speaker 2: an American president, it's an assassination. I can make all
Speaker 2: kinds of claims about how that directly affected my life,
Speaker 2: and I do. In fact, that's my motivation. To me.
Speaker 2: It's the Vietnam War and what resulted there and what
Speaker 2: wouldn't have happened if someone didn't score a head shot
Speaker 2: in Deialy Plaza. But that's my oversimplified motivation. What in
Speaker 2: the world brings an Australian guy to become interested in well,
Speaker 2: American history, the JFK assassination and the very particular lane
Speaker 2: that you've chosen here. Could you give us a brief
Speaker 2: idea of how it is you decided to do that
Speaker 2: and why.
Speaker 3: Sure, it really started when I watched The Men Who
Speaker 3: Killed Kennedy THEHS box set. Well, I had some on
Speaker 3: holiday with family and had a fair bit of time
Speaker 3: to spare side. I ripped through that documentary in a
Speaker 3: couple of days and was just absolutely captivated by the
Speaker 3: case of a head of state. Even back then I
Speaker 3: was eleven years old, a president being killed in broad daylight,
Speaker 3: so brutally and in front of so many people, and
Speaker 3: it was filmed, and it was still a mystery that
Speaker 3: just captivated me. And from there I read Garrison's on
Speaker 3: the trilogy Assassins because I watched JFK the movie, and
Speaker 3: really it was just a mystery that I've just been
Speaker 3: absolutely fascinated by ever since, to be honest, and there
Speaker 3: was only recently that I came to came to I
Speaker 3: guess contribute to the broader research community, But in terms
Speaker 3: of being an Australian, I think I think people need
Speaker 3: to know or I understand a little bit more the
Speaker 3: President Kennedy's assassination was a world changing event. Australia is
Speaker 3: a country, you know, where we are very closely aligned
Speaker 3: with the you know, with the American experience, if you
Speaker 3: like our our countries getting along really well. We followed
Speaker 3: the US escalation into Vietnam as well. Australian troops went
Speaker 3: into Vietnam so early on. You know that that made
Speaker 3: me wonder if President Kennedy hadn't been killed, would Australia
Speaker 3: have become so involved, even more involved in the Vietnam
Speaker 3: War as well? And that that impact on history I
Speaker 3: think has helped me to sty incredibly fascinated by Kennedy's
Speaker 3: assassination because the world literally changed in that moment, and
Speaker 3: you know, not not just if you're an American, but
Speaker 3: all over the world. You know, many people that have
Speaker 3: written fantastic articles about that because it is true.
Speaker 2: Interesting. Just a question here, real quick. Which version of
Speaker 2: the men who killed Kennedy did you see? Because at
Speaker 2: a certain point there was only three parts, then there
Speaker 2: were six, then there were nine, and nowadays there are
Speaker 2: six depending on what you get. So did you see
Speaker 2: the whole thing or did you see just part of it?
Speaker 2: And what year was that? Because VHS it would have
Speaker 2: had to have been after nineteen eighty eight, but it
Speaker 2: could have been anywhere. I mean, there was a resurgence
Speaker 2: of this stuff. Say in two thousand and three at
Speaker 2: the fortieth anniversary, there was a resurgence of interest in
Speaker 2: the men who killed Kennedy and that may have indeed
Speaker 2: been the time period. So what time period did you
Speaker 2: actually engage in that and get fascinated by it?
Speaker 3: Yeah, ironically enough, it was in dight Pool Levonte ninety
Speaker 3: four that I watched that the HSS series, And of
Speaker 3: course that's not related, but it happened to be in
Speaker 3: the time that Jackline Kennedy pasted. Why that I probably
Speaker 3: knew it at the time, but yeah, it was. It
Speaker 3: was the six part series. I remember that distinctly. So
Speaker 3: when all the extra extra episodes came out about the
Speaker 3: Johnson angle, until it all, I kind of watched it
Speaker 3: with a little bit of interest, but by then it
Speaker 3: was a little bit more well read on the topic
Speaker 3: and kind of just watched it out of curiosity to
Speaker 3: see if see if it's added to what I thought
Speaker 3: then Still, you know, a lot of the things in
Speaker 3: that series, you know, still held up pretty well. I'm
Speaker 3: not I'm not so sold on the Gordon Island came
Speaker 3: claim after all this time, But other than that, I
Speaker 3: think it's a very interesting series to still watch after
Speaker 3: all this time.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, some things fell apart, you know, from The
Speaker 2: Men Who Killed Kennedy. And I think that some of
Speaker 2: that is due to the fact that we have better technology,
Speaker 2: We've had more access to uh you know, generally speaking,
Speaker 2: more access to the evidence. One way or another. People
Speaker 2: have actually seen the Subruder film a lot more. Almost
Speaker 2: anybody in the world, if they've watched a documentary that
Speaker 2: was made in the past sixty years, has seen the
Speaker 2: Mormon photograph at least in passing that wasn't necessarily true.
Speaker 2: And even Gary Mack at that time was you know,
Speaker 2: sort of a conspiracy advocate when it was first filmed.
Speaker 2: And then he becomes the head of the Sixth Floor Museum.
Speaker 2: There's a whole change there. The Sixth Floor Museum didn't
Speaker 2: exist when The Men Who Killed Kennedy was first filmed,
Speaker 2: et cetera. I mean, there's a lot to it to
Speaker 2: put it in its place in history and to say,
Speaker 2: like you know today, I mean back then, when I
Speaker 2: first saw it, I thought Badgeman was a very interesting thing.
Speaker 2: Today I cannot comprehend how it is physically possible to
Speaker 2: create Badgeman legitimately and have it be anything other than
Speaker 2: a coincidental collection of different pieces of these silver chemicals
Speaker 2: that come together, because that was a polaroid photograph that
Speaker 2: Mary Mormon took. Mary Mormon Kramer, you know who I've
Speaker 2: spoken to also on the show. And that has changed
Speaker 2: over time. A lot of things did, and indeed I've
Speaker 2: even claimed that. Look, when I was younger, I thought
Speaker 2: the whole French gunman scenario kind of worked, you know,
Speaker 2: maybe that made sense, et cetera. Some things have fallen
Speaker 2: apart over time. The general sort of you know, attitude
Speaker 2: of it prevails, but does the exact evidence. I mean,
Speaker 2: even the guy who's sitting there, you know, looking at
Speaker 2: these blocky pixels with the best computer technology available in
Speaker 2: the eighties, you know, clearly we have much better ways
Speaker 2: to analyze photographs now, digitally and physically. I mean a
Speaker 2: lot of things have evolved since then. Let's say, yes,
Speaker 2: and those last three, of course, you know, you got
Speaker 2: the Johnson things, the last one, the men who killed Kennedy,
Speaker 2: the man who killed Kennedy Johnson. You have the Judy
Speaker 2: Baker episode, and then you have that other one, which
Speaker 2: is just I don't know what to call it, but
Speaker 2: it's just kind of out there, some of the more
Speaker 2: out there things. And yes, indeed all of it has
Speaker 2: kind of been tested over time, changed a bit, et cetera.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that it's a bad point for
Speaker 2: you to begin. Like I said, at one point, I
Speaker 2: thought the French gunman scenario was pretty good, you know,
Speaker 2: the idea of these French assassins, and maybe that was
Speaker 2: the real reason for it. And anyway, but you know,
Speaker 2: we learn over time. Beverly Oliver is featured in those
Speaker 2: things too, and today I would tell you that I
Speaker 2: don't think she's a legitimate witness, although at one time
Speaker 2: I might have thought she was. Things have changed, just
Speaker 2: saying as we have to learn, and we've been given
Speaker 2: more access and five million, you know, documents now added.
Speaker 2: So that's where you began. Now, why is it that
Speaker 2: you decided to write the book and begin this journey
Speaker 2: and then tell us a little bit about what it is.
Speaker 2: You know, you could mix right in there the sort
Speaker 2: of focus you have, which I find fascinating because it
Speaker 2: is one of the most underappreciated focuses I think in
Speaker 2: the case, which is, let's take a look at what
Speaker 2: we know happened, the procedures, the treatment of the alleged
Speaker 2: assassin who was never convicted but was convicted in the
Speaker 2: public's mind, and et cetera, et cetera. You know, you
Speaker 2: look at the process by which he was handled and
Speaker 2: things like that. But but I want you to explain
Speaker 2: how did you go from being inspired to choosing to
Speaker 2: focus on that and sort of how it You know,
Speaker 2: the book and the website and the podcast and all
Speaker 2: of it. You know, why still why are we in
Speaker 2: that area? And tell us about it?
Speaker 3: Well, it really started when I I'm not sure if
Speaker 3: you've heard of it, Chuck, but I of the Garrison Folders.
Speaker 3: Uh no. I put together an indix for the surviving
Speaker 3: Garrison Folders, and it was a toss that took I
Speaker 3: ten months. That literally was just made physically scanning. I've
Speaker 3: pages throughout the Garrison folders foot.
Speaker 2: Oh, Paul, where'd you go? I'm not sure if you
Speaker 2: can hear me. Hmm, all right, I'm going to take
Speaker 2: a quick break here on the podcast and see if
Speaker 2: we can't straighten out whatever's going on here, because suddenly
Speaker 2: I don't hear Paul, and I don't know if he
Speaker 2: hears me. So I want to get into that question
Speaker 2: and ask about where it does he went and why?
Speaker 2: As this show continues, stick.
Speaker 1: One wont do want to in a comedy, Alan Bonnet,
Speaker 1: This is the Kadia.
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Speaker 5: The War State by Michael Swanson explains the great national
Speaker 5: transformation that took place and put the Kennedy presidency in
Speaker 5: the context of the times, and reveals never before published
Speaker 5: information about the Cuban missile crisis. President Kennedy would not
Speaker 5: have been assassinated if he had been president two hundred
Speaker 5: years ago. His assassination took place in the context of
Speaker 5: the Cold War and the rise of the national security state.
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Speaker 5: a continental republic. In the decade that followed it became
Speaker 5: an imperial superpower. Generals such as Curtis LeMay not only
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Speaker 7: It also shows why the actries today are doing secret
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Speaker 8: Ye, I'm doing down about once again the day about
Speaker 8: I've been luck.
Speaker 1: No, no, I just got the time that's gone.
Speaker 5: I don't use one time.
Speaker 6: I don't get it out the blue burried on.
Speaker 2: No, no, no, no, go ahead call it. And this
Speaker 2: isn't the truth about the Jayfay assassination. Right, Well, what
Speaker 2: do you want to know Judy Baker's.
Speaker 8: Wild claim Oswald girlfriend if he knew Ruby and Barry
Speaker 8: answer weapons?
Speaker 2: Really, I imagine I could claim I have four wheels.
Speaker 2: It doesn't make me a wagon.
Speaker 3: But okay, Oswald's was on the building and I'm trying
Speaker 3: to prevent the murder of John Kennedy.
Speaker 2: Come on now, has a.
Speaker 3: Real effort on the day of hay assassination. Book into
Speaker 3: her claim.
Speaker 2: Go to Amazon dot com enter Judith Baker in her
Speaker 2: own words. You'll get the results for a digital copy
Speaker 2: of a book where Walt Brown utilizes her own words
Speaker 2: and the known evidence in the case to get at
Speaker 2: well a different perspective. Let's say you can get Judith
Speaker 2: Barry Baker in her own words from the author himself,
Speaker 2: signed if you request it by contacting doctor Brown at
Speaker 2: k I A S J F K at A O
Speaker 2: L dot com. It's a fun book and it actually
Speaker 2: dissects the many many fantastic claims. Judith very Baker in
Speaker 2: her own words.
Speaker 4: Dot Com Radio Network, Chili dot com.
Speaker 3: This is James CORBNT Corp Report dot com and you're
Speaker 3: listening to the affected Olly dot Com Relations conversation.
Speaker 1: What the effect.
Speaker 8: For a relations conversations.
Speaker 1: Show, James effect relation devastation, relations the effect revelation through conversation.
Speaker 1: Ready for.
Speaker 2: A brief interruption, because computers have minds of their own anyway.
Speaker 2: Uh so I'm talking to the man behind, all right,
Speaker 2: once again, the man behind.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: Death to Justice The Shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald, which
Speaker 2: is a podcast you can find on Apple and other
Speaker 2: pod catcher devices out there of your choice. Obviously hopefully
Speaker 2: it's spread all over the place, but if you haven't
Speaker 2: found it, Death to Justice The Shooting of Lee Harvey
Speaker 2: Oswald by Paul Abbott. It's a true crime podcast and
Speaker 2: all that, and uh interesting, it's got the black white
Speaker 2: red you know logo and all that kind of stuff. Uh,
Speaker 2: and he calls it the book cast, So I guess
Speaker 2: it's in support of the book. I like the idea.
Speaker 2: I have always said every book should have this now,
Speaker 2: but not everybody agrees with my ideas. Anyhow, we were
Speaker 2: just starting to discuss how you transition from you know,
Speaker 2: getting interested, starting to read, and you read, you know,
Speaker 2: Jim Garrison's book. You saw JFK. You saw the Men
Speaker 2: of Kill Kennedy, Okay, and then you started organizing the folders.
Speaker 2: Maybe you could give a description about that again, you
Speaker 2: know what folders? Are we talking about? The files? The
Speaker 2: transcripts from the grand jury? You know, were you responsible
Speaker 2: for indexing those, et cetera. And then tell us about
Speaker 2: how it ends up that you start writing about the
Speaker 2: death of Lee Harvey Oswald, the shooting of him. Well,
Speaker 2: not necessarily the death, but how about all the circumstances
Speaker 2: that come together that end in his death. But maybe
Speaker 2: maybe that's a better description, but you'll you'll help me here,
Speaker 2: so tell us about that transition once again.
Speaker 3: Yeap. So it was the Garrison folders that I got
Speaker 3: my hands on. Lenosonic sends them out as a link,
Speaker 3: but they are publicly available and I had Paul Blow
Speaker 3: derived a lot of information for articles that he was
Speaker 3: writing at the time out of these Garrison folders, and
Speaker 3: they are surviving documents from obviously former New Orleans District
Speaker 3: Attorney Jim Garrison, who Kevin Coston played in JFKA, of course,
Speaker 3: and I really just I was at the time, I
Speaker 3: really didn't know too much about the New Orleans aspect,
Speaker 3: you know, the summer of nineteen sixty three, So that's
Speaker 3: kind of why I wanted to look through them. And
Speaker 3: as I was going through the folders, they were just
Speaker 3: there was like I think I ended up counting there
Speaker 3: were thirteen thousand pages in them. And what I started
Speaker 3: doing was really just scanning through each of these pages
Speaker 3: to look for names and contact next. And as I
Speaker 3: was doing that, I was putting them on a spreadsheet,
Speaker 3: and the spreadsheet just kept getting longer and longer, and
Speaker 3: each name with a little bit of context how it
Speaker 3: which folder corresponded to and which page and everything like that.
Speaker 3: So really it became a resource that I was I
Speaker 3: was compiling for anyone, you know that I wanted to
Speaker 3: find out a little bit more about Garrison and the
Speaker 3: work he did, not just in the sixties. But of
Speaker 3: course as well, I'll probably know he never he never
Speaker 3: stopped his interest in the there in any assassination case,
Speaker 3: and he continued to collect in the third decade newsletters
Speaker 3: and articles and things like that, and then he went
Speaker 3: into Scull and Bones and the Builderberg Group and John
Speaker 3: Lennon assassination Reagan and everything. Really, it's just it is
Speaker 3: a fascinating resource. So I didn't go in in any
Speaker 3: particular with any particular into Bolster Jim Garrison or detract
Speaker 3: from him. I just wanted to see how much he
Speaker 3: collected and make it easy for other people to read through.
Speaker 3: So yeah, index spreadsheet, it's about forty thousand lines deep,
Speaker 3: but that's out there as well for people to use.
Speaker 3: So really, when I was going through that exercise, there
Speaker 3: was one particular folder in there Chuck called I think
Speaker 3: it was the Plans and Security for Lee Harvey Oswald's Transfer.
Speaker 3: That's literally the name of the folder. And as I
Speaker 3: was reading through it, it was basically almost know a
Speaker 3: verbatim copy of the Dallas Police investigation into itself into
Speaker 3: obviously how they went about handling Oswald's transfer from Dallas
Speaker 3: City Hall to County jail over that weekend of November
Speaker 3: twenty second, and what it consists of is a summary
Speaker 3: report by JW. Fritz, Captain Fritz, and literally statements so
Speaker 3: transcribes or transcripts of statements that witnesses to Oswold shooting made.
Speaker 3: As well as that for Davits, there's even a copy
Speaker 3: of an architecturally drawn map of the basement at the
Speaker 3: time of the shooting. I don't know if you've seen it,
Speaker 3: but there's a lot of circles with numbers in them
Speaker 3: that correspond to an index within the Dallas Police investigation
Speaker 3: detailing where witnesses were standing at the time Volsewolds shooting.
Speaker 3: And I'm basically I looked back around to do this
Speaker 3: fold after I'd done the index, because they were just
Speaker 3: even at the time, I was really starting to catch
Speaker 3: a lot of contradictions between people's own statements. You know,
Speaker 3: what they said to Dallas Police on the twenty fourth
Speaker 3: of November and then said three or four days later
Speaker 3: changed or was completely different.
Speaker 2: I can I pause you can? I pause you here
Speaker 2: real quickly because you know, when I first encountered the
Speaker 2: shooting of Lee Rby Oswald, and I had videotapes back
Speaker 2: in the eighties and stuff. I didn't see it the
Speaker 2: same way because I hadn't had certain life experiences. Now,
Speaker 2: I have worked security, and I've worked bodyguard duty, and
Speaker 2: i've worked bouncer duty. Okay, I know the blind guy
Speaker 2: doing that's kind of funny, but I was useful in
Speaker 2: a team.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: I looked at it the first time and it was like, Wow,
Speaker 2: this is crazy. This guy got shot on live TV.
Speaker 2: Now that's my teenage version of looking at it. When
Speaker 2: I looked at it later, though, something that jumped out
Speaker 2: at me. And I've always wondered, you know, and I've
Speaker 2: studied some of the stuff you're talking about. I know
Speaker 2: what you're referring to and why, because I had massive
Speaker 2: questions when I looked at it later after i'd worked security.
Speaker 2: For instance, Fritz is an interesting character because he breaks
Speaker 2: a four point security hold that they have on the
Speaker 2: body the subject, the guy you're supposed to be protecting.
Speaker 2: He is at the front point of a four point
Speaker 2: security formation and he walks away opens it up almost
Speaker 2: seemingly intentionally, you know. And this is where Ruby slides in. Now,
Speaker 2: you know, we can talk about you know, where the cops,
Speaker 2: you know, even the different ones, the Graves and the
Speaker 2: other guy who's cuffed to him. We could talk about,
Speaker 2: you know, where these guys aware of him? Did they
Speaker 2: not see him because of the lights in their eyes,
Speaker 2: et cetera. But here's the problem. If they had maintained
Speaker 2: the integrity of the four points of protection, then it
Speaker 2: would have been much harder for Jack Ruby to swoop
Speaker 2: in and make that gut shot that eventually killed Oswald.
Speaker 2: Now I didn't see that until I had that life
Speaker 2: experience later. But I'm curious if you ever found that
Speaker 2: addressed in these sorts of things. Did you see that?
Speaker 2: You know, Look, we see that Fritz actually violated the
Speaker 2: the formation for protection, which is something that not everybody
Speaker 2: sees when they see that film. But it's true. There's
Speaker 2: no way to you can't you can't challenge me on this.
Speaker 2: He broke a four point protection formation. It's just it's
Speaker 2: what do you call that self evidence? If you look
Speaker 2: at the film, there's no way to deny it. And
Speaker 2: a veteran who was running this, who was the lead guy,
Speaker 2: should have known better. And did he ever get that?
Speaker 2: You know, did anybody even question that? I wonder, you know,
Speaker 2: stuff like that, And that's where you end up going
Speaker 2: when you go into this sort of thing. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, correct me if I'm wrong, you know, I
Speaker 2: feel free, or if you have a different way of
Speaker 2: looking at it. But what do you think of that
Speaker 2: simple point there that I'm making.
Speaker 3: Well, that was one of the first things that really
Speaker 3: jumped out to me, because I think most people before
Speaker 3: I started diving into the Oswald treading are pretty pretty generalists.
Speaker 3: Sumption that you know, something wasn't right in Dodge. You know,
Speaker 3: Jack Ruby happened to be able to be on the
Speaker 3: scene to you know, so precisely you position himself to
Speaker 3: jump out and shoot Oswald. And that's as much as
Speaker 3: I knew. And I kind of had a fair assumption
Speaker 3: that he didn't come down to the main street ramp
Speaker 3: because of how solid Roy Worm was. But that's about it.
Speaker 3: But what you're talking about with Fruits walking out first,
Speaker 3: and there are also car horns which which people have
Speaker 3: interpreted as being signals. But you know, we're looking through
Speaker 3: the footage and not just of the shooting but leading
Speaker 3: up to We actually have the benefit of about twenty
Speaker 3: minutes of footage in the basement showing the movements and
Speaker 3: people milling around and waiting. You know, that's the same
Speaker 3: frame that it catches Oswald shooting. You know we have that,
Speaker 3: and you can hear car horns regularly throughout that footage.
Speaker 3: So I wonder if you know the the car horns
Speaker 3: weren't weren't needed as a as a signal because it
Speaker 3: was actually pretty clear that Ruby was in place, whether
Speaker 3: Fritz came out and observed the scene and saw Ruby
Speaker 3: was in place and was you know, therefore, when okay, right,
Speaker 3: we need to we can bring Oswald out now. And
Speaker 3: the only to get back directly to your point, Chuck,
Speaker 3: the only way that was addressed. And this just it
Speaker 3: still makes me laugh. In the DPD investigation or sorry,
Speaker 3: the Warrant Commission, one of the key failings that they
Speaker 3: held the DPD two when it came to Oswald shooting
Speaker 3: was the fact that they changed the mode of transport
Speaker 3: that Oswald would be taken to the county jail and
Speaker 3: at the last minute, which is true. I'm not sure
Speaker 3: if you work there, but a large armored truck was
Speaker 3: meant to be the way that Oswald would be driven
Speaker 3: the twelve blocks down to the county jail, but apparently
Speaker 3: it was Fritz himself, who said, well, you know, if
Speaker 3: we come under some kind of attack, then A then A,
Speaker 3: then an armor truck is going to be very hard
Speaker 3: to maneuver, and you know, evaalue anything like that. So
Speaker 3: he said, let's just put him in the back of
Speaker 3: an unmarked squad car and we'll do it that quickly,
Speaker 3: and the truck will still be in the convoy will
Speaker 3: just be decoy. So they the Warring Commission actually said that,
Speaker 3: you know, that was a key factor for for Oswald
Speaker 3: being shot, because as the car that he was being
Speaker 3: led to was actually still reversing into position, and I
Speaker 3: think that gives Fritz the excuse to hurry his pace
Speaker 3: to make sure that the car backs into where he
Speaker 3: would think it would need to.
Speaker 2: Be to.
Speaker 3: Collects Oswald and his two detective escorts. I think that's
Speaker 3: the the way it could be interpreted. But he absolutely
Speaker 3: broke cover. You're right, there's no excuse for it. Even
Speaker 3: even if the car was still getting into the position.
Speaker 3: There's no excuse for it, and none, none was given
Speaker 3: other than that. And what what really irks me is
Speaker 3: if Fritz actually had the bulls to come out and say, oh, well,
Speaker 3: you know, there was really nothing they could do. Ruby
Speaker 3: only had to walk a feet, you know, two or
Speaker 3: three feet to shoot the man. So that's literally what
Speaker 3: he said. And I've got the audio of that, and
Speaker 3: it's he was only able to do that because you
Speaker 3: left the front wide open. So it just some fear outing.
Speaker 2: It really is well right, Plus to my memory, it
Speaker 2: was his car by the way, that that that they
Speaker 2: were backing into position. Right, it's actually Fritz's car. Yeah, okay, uh,
Speaker 2: and it's it's very weird. One could say, look, they
Speaker 2: might have not realized that there was going to be
Speaker 2: a problem with and some people have even said that
Speaker 2: the armored car wouldn't have fit down the ramp. Perhaps
Speaker 2: it would not have depending on you know, I really
Speaker 2: have not done the measurement myself, but I would I
Speaker 2: would go with that idea that maybe they did have
Speaker 2: to change things and last minute changes so that you
Speaker 2: don't have somebody who can be easily targeted, especially considering
Speaker 2: guaranteed there were some people who wanted to get their
Speaker 2: hands on this guy. Would not be unreasonable to make
Speaker 2: a last minute change. But I don't I still cannot
Speaker 2: wrap my mind around us. Somebody who should have known
Speaker 2: better would have broke that formation. It's not as though
Speaker 2: he couldn't have sent somebody else to signal the car
Speaker 2: back up a little bit or something else. He should
Speaker 2: have maintained his coverage on the body, which would have
Speaker 2: narrowed the opportunity for you know, for Ruby at the
Speaker 2: very least. But there's also the issue and most people
Speaker 2: have focused on and about how Ruby got into position.
Speaker 2: You know, did he make it down the bed that
Speaker 2: stairwell or not, because nobody saw him go down the ramp.
Speaker 2: All these things going on, and all of them are relevant.
Speaker 2: But at the same time, if you had, you know,
Speaker 2: the procedures nice and tight, it would have been much
Speaker 2: much more difficult and maybe impossible, depending on how well
Speaker 2: you did it, for them to pull off what they did.
Speaker 2: I mean, because remember, this is a gut shot, and
Speaker 2: how are you going to get at the guy's gut
Speaker 2: if you have a physical person obstructing it. It's a
Speaker 2: little difficult. You could say, well, maybe he could have
Speaker 2: knocked Fritz out of the way or something like. It
Speaker 2: would have been a lot more difficult, I assure you,
Speaker 2: if he had remained in position. I mean, that is
Speaker 2: the front of the four points of protection. That's not
Speaker 2: even you know, the guy at the rear probably didn't move.
Speaker 2: I didn't observe him, actually, but I mean, I'm just
Speaker 2: saying the guy at the rear didn't move, and you
Speaker 2: know that you can't shoot him in the back. It's
Speaker 2: just that simple. I mean, that's the idea. But okay,
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry, please.
Speaker 3: Sell out that that that that that point about Fritz
Speaker 3: and the carne being in place. Lieutenant Swain who walked
Speaker 3: out first, he came down with with Fritz and company
Speaker 3: with Oswald. He actually walked out first and you can
Speaker 3: see him literally signaling to Dougherty telling him to back
Speaker 3: the car down. So that that literally it's a paper
Speaker 3: wayfer thin of an excuse to somehow. I think some
Speaker 3: somehow gave Fritz a bit of a pass on yes,
Speaker 3: breaking cover for sure.
Speaker 2: And the other better alternative, by the way, is if
Speaker 2: Fritz is going to be concerned about last minute logistical adjustments,
Speaker 2: don't have him at the front of the four points.
Speaker 2: That's another thing. You know, he doesn't need to be
Speaker 2: at the front there. I mean, unless it's for the
Speaker 2: cameras and you want to make sure that they see
Speaker 2: the head of you know, robbery homicide first. But anyway,
Speaker 2: I prolonged that point enough. I just wanted to make
Speaker 2: it because it is one of the important things you
Speaker 2: encounter when analyzing this with the proper lens. Like I
Speaker 2: said that the shock of somebody dying on television is
Speaker 2: one thing. The shock of the fact that, you know,
Speaker 2: another weird thing that goes on here is maybe he
Speaker 2: wouldn't have to die with that gut shot, had they not,
Speaker 2: you know, put a basically an emergency person on him
Speaker 2: who started doing chest compressions when a guy's got a
Speaker 2: gut shot. A bad idea, you know, medically. Okay, there's
Speaker 2: a bunch of things that went on here, but yes.
Speaker 3: And that was again another first point that really roused
Speaker 3: my suspicion about it being a total inside job. Well,
Speaker 3: if fols All was being led to a car, why
Speaker 3: was he not just put in the car he was
Speaker 3: being led to him sped straight out of that Arkland hospital,
Speaker 3: he might have had a chance. But instead, as we know,
Speaker 3: he wasn't actually swarmed over. There was only Lavell who
Speaker 3: was handcuffed to him, and I think it was combust
Speaker 3: Billy Combas who stepped forward and because he was literally
Speaker 3: right behind level when Oswald was shot, and they carried
Speaker 3: Oswald back into the jail office, so he was out
Speaker 3: of sight, out of the media. God knows what happened
Speaker 3: to him back there, because the emergency responder that you
Speaker 3: speak of, Fred Bieberdorf, that's the whole interesting tale as well,
Speaker 3: because initially but he wasn't even in their investigation, They
Speaker 3: didn't even bother to talk to him. It was the
Speaker 3: FBI that finally got his story out for their investigation
Speaker 3: as the precursor for the warrant commission, and he came
Speaker 3: up with this whole big saga of it taking him
Speaker 3: minutes to cover twenty feet from the very back of
Speaker 3: the jail, you know the basement corridor there to get
Speaker 3: to the point where he thought the shoot had taken place.
Speaker 3: Took him minutes to get there, only to realize that
Speaker 3: no one was there laying on the ground shot. Oh,
Speaker 3: they must be in the jail office. And he just
Speaker 3: had this big cock and ball minutes long saga of
Speaker 3: a story that said it took him to finally get
Speaker 3: to Oswald to assume that he was not breathing because
Speaker 3: he couldn't hear a heartbeat. Now in that jail office.
Speaker 3: Of course he wouldn't have because they had Jack Ruby
Speaker 3: in there as well, who was probably barking and hollering
Speaker 3: and asking the DPD why they're setting on him because
Speaker 3: they know who he is. He's Jack Ruby. So there's
Speaker 3: just this whole, big, contrived set up where this poor
Speaker 3: Oswald he's been shot in the guart he's been taken
Speaker 3: out of sight of the media. Again, what the hell
Speaker 3: happened to him? It's anybody's gets you know, I did.
Speaker 3: Were they taking him back there to make sure that
Speaker 3: the job was finished and if it wasn't, did they
Speaker 3: do it themselves back in the jail office. We do
Speaker 3: not know, because unfortunately, again it's just one of those
Speaker 3: aspects that was never questioned. Fritz, Why did you not
Speaker 3: just get Oswald into your car and having driven to
Speaker 3: park from hospital? No one in any of the investigations
Speaker 3: ever focused on that, And to me, that's that's the
Speaker 3: first key point here.
Speaker 2: Well. Another thing which which I asked a long time ago,
Speaker 2: and nobody took it seriously, is that if you're considering
Speaker 2: that there is a public event taking place where law
Speaker 2: enforcement and the uh, you know, the the Department of
Speaker 2: Public Safety is involved, because that that is what that is, right,
Speaker 2: The Department of Public Safety is involved. Usually even during
Speaker 2: parades and stuff. They put and you know, ambulances along
Speaker 2: the route are usually stationed nearby to increase the rate
Speaker 2: of response. So somebody might think that along with the
Speaker 2: rest of this, you know, uh, you know, motorcade if
Speaker 2: you will again, and sorry to use the term, but
Speaker 2: this you know, traveling thing for him to be able
Speaker 2: to be transferred, somebody might have wanted to include an
Speaker 2: ambulance on standby in case there was a rockus, in
Speaker 2: case there were injuries. So why wasn't there an ambulance
Speaker 2: because the guy you're talking about is a barely qualified
Speaker 2: first responder. Even this isn't a doctor, this isn't a
Speaker 2: fully you know, equipped ambulance. This is one guy. So
Speaker 2: you know, okay, where's that part of the question. The
Speaker 2: person arranging this, didn't you think that there could be
Speaker 2: the potential for injuries of any kind even if the
Speaker 2: media got out of hand and started knocking each other over.
Speaker 2: You might need an ambulance for a knocked over media
Speaker 2: person or you know what I'm saying. So there's that question,
Speaker 2: and people go, oh, come on, you're just being you know,
Speaker 2: you're thinking, okay, fair, But still there's a question that
Speaker 2: I would have asked, you know, how come there wasn't
Speaker 2: an ambulance on standby nearby because during the president's motorcade
Speaker 2: there were ambulances along the route. You know, just saying
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that he deserves the same protection. But
Speaker 2: if you know there's going to be crowds gathering, you know,
Speaker 2: there's the potential for violence. Isn't it one of those
Speaker 2: standard procedures in public safety business to bring ambulances. I
Speaker 2: don't know, maybe just me, but what is your thought
Speaker 2: on that?
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're right. And Charles Prinshaw I think he said
Speaker 3: in his book a fews later that Oswald would have
Speaker 3: actually had a chance to survive such a such a
Speaker 3: shooting wound if he was given ringers lack tight straight away,
Speaker 3: which might have been in a properly equipped ambulance. But
Speaker 3: of course we've, like you said, that there wasn't an
Speaker 3: ambulance anywhere nearby. Was actually the nearest one was three
Speaker 3: minutes away after the phone call was made to get
Speaker 3: that one to city Hall in response to the shooting.
Speaker 3: So if if Oswell was put in a properly equipped
Speaker 3: ambulance dry away and that ring is lack tighte was
Speaker 3: able to keep his system circulation going, he might have
Speaker 3: stood a chance of surviving. But of course way, I'm
Speaker 3: pretty sure that was never part of the plan.
Speaker 2: Well see, but there you go, And now it becomes
Speaker 2: after a while you start to say, look, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of mistakes piling up here. After a while you
Speaker 2: start to see a pattern and say, is there an
Speaker 2: intentional thing? Is this? You know, we just don't care
Speaker 2: if somebody decides to, you know, kill him off, he saves,
Speaker 2: you know, much like they said in the JFK movie, right,
Speaker 2: somebody just saved the Dallas DA pile of work. You know.
Speaker 2: Is it just that we don't know necessarily, But it
Speaker 2: does look kind of strange considering you know, it's not
Speaker 2: like you're talking about fifteen people in the police force.
Speaker 2: There there were I think at my count, there was
Speaker 2: about one thousand personnel in the DPD even back then,
Speaker 2: So it's not like you didn't have enough manpower available
Speaker 2: in the police department alone. You know, Fritz being the
Speaker 2: head of the Robbery Homicide division, of course that's his prisoner.
Speaker 2: But it doesn't mean that he'd be the only guy
Speaker 2: who could be involved in the transfer of said prisoner,
Speaker 2: because now you have multiple issues coming up, not just
Speaker 2: the fact that he's a homicide suspect, but now you
Speaker 2: have public safety issues as I'm bringing up. And yes,
Speaker 2: indeed they call that building, or they used to anyway,
Speaker 2: the Dallas Department of Public Safety, right, So you know,
Speaker 2: I'm just asking what I think are reasonable questions. But
Speaker 2: all these things only come up if you analyze the minutia.
Speaker 2: So and meanwhile, we're now talking about his death heavily.
Speaker 2: But there's a lot of things, as we're pointing out here,
Speaker 2: leading up to that incident, and you know, there's a
Speaker 2: lot of planning. There's a lot of other things. I mean,
Speaker 2: we could get into the lineups, the way he was
Speaker 2: treated when he was charged. All those things are relevant
Speaker 2: because they did happen. They were part of something that was,
Speaker 2: you know, happening in real time. At that time. The
Speaker 2: world was suddenly watching because that's the first time the
Speaker 2: news went live in America on television anyway, you know,
Speaker 2: and I do believe the world was watching. It was
Speaker 2: something you know, interesting, and it was it captured the attention,
Speaker 2: you know, the entire weekend, right from Friday on all
Speaker 2: the way till they buried him on Monday. Kennedy you know,
Speaker 2: and well Kennedy, Tippett, and Oswald, I guess all actually
Speaker 2: buried on Monday one way or another. You know, it's
Speaker 2: it's relevant. So anyway, so you dig into this, what
Speaker 2: are you gaining by doing this besides you know, opening
Speaker 2: up the history and saying, let's see what the detail
Speaker 2: is because a lot of assumptions are made. Why can't
Speaker 2: we educate those assumptions better? So what what is your
Speaker 2: ultimate goal with you know, death to justice, the shooting
Speaker 2: of the rby Oswald being a key element. Uh and
Speaker 2: of course the title of your podcast and and your website.
Speaker 2: What is it that you're after here exactly?
Speaker 3: I think I just want to really highlight City Hall
Speaker 3: basement and whereas well was shot as its own crime,
Speaker 3: saying like daily Plaza is and you know the Ambassador Hotel.
Speaker 3: To me, there is so many I do document them.
Speaker 3: I'll probably go into too much detail in some regards,
Speaker 3: like I do get very granular, well not just hows
Speaker 3: and the shot because obviously it was a split second moment,
Speaker 3: but all the all the movements of media and police
Speaker 3: officers that acted very suspiciously and got close to being
Speaker 3: revealed at the time. We can go into that if
Speaker 3: you want as well, Jock, But I really just want
Speaker 3: to highlight Oswald shooting as another facet of the of
Speaker 3: the Kennedy assassination that's worthy of its own sensible research,
Speaker 3: because to me, when I started to get a little
Speaker 3: bit more serious about it, really I could the most
Speaker 3: I could find was kind of, you know, on the
Speaker 3: I guess you'd call them on the fringe of the
Speaker 3: JFK assassination community. I mean, the most exhaustive books written
Speaker 3: about the Kennedy assassination Jim Douglas's Jfkney Unspeakable. You know,
Speaker 3: I go back a bit further, anton Son's Conspiracy. They
Speaker 3: they actually don't give all that much coverage to the
Speaker 3: Oswald shooting. Conspiracy probably does a little bit more than
Speaker 3: than any other book, but it really, it just it's
Speaker 3: just so been criminally, as far as I'm concerned, just
Speaker 3: been so undercovered. And look, will we ever find out
Speaker 3: who was behind the Oswald shooting ultimately, because we know
Speaker 3: that Jack Ruby was positioned to be the shooter, but
Speaker 3: you know, the elements that were behind it. I'm starting
Speaker 3: to think that I really didn't have to be such
Speaker 3: a big, grand conspiracy, you know.
Speaker 2: It was.
Speaker 3: It was ultimately something that was allowed to happen, you know.
Speaker 3: And I thought someone like Fritz leaving leaving the front
Speaker 3: position open for Ruby to step out in front of
Speaker 3: because he knew something was going to happen, that might
Speaker 3: be the length of it for him. But there were
Speaker 3: elements of the DPD that allowed and set up this
Speaker 3: shooting and even knew about it. And there's one example.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you know about this, but Detective
Speaker 3: Lewis Miller in the footage of the Oswald shooting, he's
Speaker 3: the only man that can be seen not wearing a hat,
Speaker 3: and he comes in to cover over Jack Ruby. Literally
Speaker 3: he comes Jack Ruby's by that point hatless head with
Speaker 3: some kind of black garment. When you slow down the footage,
Speaker 3: it is very clear to see. So that to me
Speaker 3: was when I found out out. I thought, well that
Speaker 3: there you go. That's that's evidence of one person, at
Speaker 3: least one person in the DPD who knew that Oswald
Speaker 3: was about to about to be shot and they needed
Speaker 3: to be ready to for whatever reason cover up his
Speaker 3: shootor so. It just I think if people understood how
Speaker 3: how the Oswald shooting actually took place, you know, from there,
Speaker 3: that opens up another kind of paddic if you like,
Speaker 3: field to the JFK assassination, and if some more sensible
Speaker 3: research is done on it, because my book does not
Speaker 3: have all the answers, and nor was it ever meant to.
Speaker 3: It was just literally meant to be a point to
Speaker 3: highlight how little we've actually come to come to know
Speaker 3: about the topic. You know, if more sensible research has
Speaker 3: done about it, then who knows how it could be
Speaker 3: linked to what happens obviously on November the twenty second,
Speaker 3: We don't know, but at least at least there's a
Speaker 3: photo grund there to some more research, for sure, and
Speaker 3: that's what I want.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, definitely, But let me give you the devil's
Speaker 2: advocate question here then, which you know, look, it's it's
Speaker 2: a logical thing. And I have even taken this attitude
Speaker 2: at certain points when it comes to you know, Ruby
Speaker 2: shooting Oswald. Ruby is not a great assassin. He's not
Speaker 2: a good hit man, and the fact that he shot
Speaker 2: him in the gut is proof positive of it. Because
Speaker 2: you know, shooting somebody there, there's a lot of variables.
Speaker 2: You're only going to get one shot, you know, and
Speaker 2: doing it just then and there. Yeah, okay, opportunity is clear.
Speaker 2: And we talked about how opportunity was made easier by
Speaker 2: the behavior of the people doing the protection. And we
Speaker 2: still don't know exactly, in my mind, how it is
Speaker 2: he even arrived in the position he arrived in, you know,
Speaker 2: having been over there, you know, right over wiring money
Speaker 2: minutes before, just down the alleyway from the DPD building.
Speaker 2: You know, there's a whole thing going on there. But
Speaker 2: Ruby sucks as a hitman. He's not a good hitman.
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just speaking practically, you know. And people say, well,
Speaker 2: that's that's proved positive a mob involvement. Now, if the
Speaker 2: mob was going to send somebody to kill somebody important,
Speaker 2: they're not using Jack Ruby. I'm sorry, they're just not.
Speaker 2: They want a guy who's going to get the job done.
Speaker 2: And Ruby doesn't have the best track record. He's the
Speaker 2: kind of guy who will fight. He is the kind
Speaker 2: of guy who will get physical anytime, throw his body
Speaker 2: into a situation. Yes, but his track record doesn't show
Speaker 2: me that he's an efficient killer. And you know, having
Speaker 2: grown up in the same area where Roy De Mayo
Speaker 2: was from, got to tell you that guy was a
Speaker 2: serial killer that got lucky when he found the mob,
Speaker 2: you know, and there are people like that. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, I grew up in New Jersey and in
Speaker 2: the New York area, so believe me, I haven't understanding,
Speaker 2: let's say, of some of the people that were proficient
Speaker 2: killers in that business, you know. And I may discuss
Speaker 2: that at Lancer this year, by the way, just spoiler,
Speaker 2: but because I feel very badly that people don't understand
Speaker 2: what the mafia is, so I'm going to do that
Speaker 2: during my presentation. But anyway, it's fun to be said.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it was part of his why he
Speaker 3: was selected to be the shooter of Oswald, because because
Speaker 3: of that association, and people would think, oh, yeah, it's
Speaker 3: a mob hit. But I'm with here. If you're going
Speaker 3: to be sure about something, you would obviously take a headshot,
Speaker 3: and you would you would be methodical about it.
Speaker 2: But it was a risk.
Speaker 3: If that's that's exactly what happened, that that Ruby stepped
Speaker 3: forward and shot Oswald in the abdominute, point blank range.
Speaker 3: Hell of a risk because the lucky the bullet didn't
Speaker 3: come out and obviously, you know, hit Lavell behind. You know,
Speaker 3: there was no the revolver that he was using packed
Speaker 3: a punch, you know, it was one of those cobrats,
Speaker 3: you know, very serious little revolver. So I think that
Speaker 3: in itself was was a bit of a bit of
Speaker 3: a risk on Ruby's part. But I think it might
Speaker 3: have even been as simple as Ruby just coming in
Speaker 3: to take any kind of shots from Oswald, and because
Speaker 3: Oswald was rushed out and out of the view of
Speaker 3: the media, that you know, to be sure that the
Speaker 3: job was finished, and then it was done in the
Speaker 3: jail office. I think that that literally or Ruby could
Speaker 3: have been used to it was just to come in.
Speaker 3: Apparently he was taking a whole bunch of his was
Speaker 3: that what's the drug? Some kind of weight losses like speed?
Speaker 3: Basically now, yeah, he prescribed he was in some kind
Speaker 3: of state, you know, and people do say that. So
Speaker 3: I think he literally was a trigger puller and to
Speaker 3: be sure the shot was fatal, they was Oswald into
Speaker 3: the jail office and made sure of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, because the more logical way for a criminal to
Speaker 2: kill Oswald would be to get him in the jail
Speaker 2: and make sure that he got near somebody who would
Speaker 2: you know, take care of him that way, because they
Speaker 2: would be sure he'd be dead if they cut his
Speaker 2: throat in a jail cell, you know what I mean,
Speaker 2: It's pretty simple. And then all you got to do
Speaker 2: is have the guards ignore him long enough to bleed
Speaker 2: out no matter how he wounds them. And you can
Speaker 2: do that and it's plausible. Hey, look, some prisoner just
Speaker 2: decided to take it upon themselves, you know, pretty much
Speaker 2: like the Ruby story. This guy took it upon himselves
Speaker 2: himself as a patriotic American to protect you know, Jackie
Speaker 2: from testifying. I mean, you know, the weirdness of the
Speaker 2: explanation for why one loan nut knocked off another loan nut.
Speaker 2: You know, I don't buy that either. But the idea
Speaker 2: that he was like a mob hitman is stupid. It's
Speaker 2: just that that's not the guy you send, that's not
Speaker 2: the weapon he would use, and that's probably not the
Speaker 2: opportunity he'd even take. But throwing a bunch of things
Speaker 2: at him, Maybe he was just one part of a
Speaker 2: larger plan. Whether they decided to let him live past
Speaker 2: that gut shot or not. There might have been multiple
Speaker 2: attacks on him and it would have been like, hey,
Speaker 2: we couldn't help it. The guy was going to die
Speaker 2: no matter what we did, you know. But it just
Speaker 2: so happens that the first gut shots succeeded. And I mean,
Speaker 2: it is Texas, and don't forget there's belt buckles there, Okay,
Speaker 2: just saying I've seen people get struck in a belt
Speaker 2: buckle before when somebody aims at their center mass. You know,
Speaker 2: there's a lot of risks you've take in there by
Speaker 2: not shooting somebody in the heart or the head. I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, that's just the more efficient way to go
Speaker 2: anyway in the use of a thirty eight. It's a
Speaker 2: common firearm. It's so strange though, because when you look
Speaker 2: and you slow down that footage, there's a lot of
Speaker 2: things going on there that are difficult to explain. You know,
Speaker 2: the way that people are turning. How fast did you
Speaker 2: know Graves or Lavelle try to loose themselves because they
Speaker 2: were both cuffed to them on each side, which you know,
Speaker 2: I don't think was the smartest it.
Speaker 3: It was only the vel that was tough to him
Speaker 3: because we're going to what amount of very hard to
Speaker 3: get in the car with with ose Wald, so Graves
Speaker 3: was just holding on to Oswald's arm. It was level
Speaker 3: that was coughed.
Speaker 2: Well see, initially the statement was that they were both
Speaker 2: supposed to be coughed to it. But but but either
Speaker 2: but either way, it doesn't It doesn't matter because you
Speaker 2: look at you look at the footage, you see what happened,
Speaker 2: and you can actually see people turning at different times
Speaker 2: and why they're turning. They explained it later. Uh, and
Speaker 2: you know, we got a lot of inconsistencies there.
Speaker 3: And this this is the top of for me. Yeah,
Speaker 3: there are all these people that attributed Jack Erby yelling
Speaker 3: out as he shot Oswald, and you know, you know
Speaker 3: and Jeff Kay the have the shootings depicted, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, Jack Raby sets forward and says Oswald but
Speaker 3: that that didn't happen, you know, but people that were
Speaker 3: near but also far away said Jack Gergby said a
Speaker 3: combination of your son of a bitch, you shot Apple,
Speaker 3: all words to that effect. And that's bass because like
Speaker 3: Pappus was standing right next to Ruby literally as he
Speaker 3: shot Oswald and recording recording it. You know, it's that
Speaker 3: famous audio that we've that we've heard of the shooting.
Speaker 3: You can't hear any any such thing being uttered. Who else?
Speaker 3: Gary Delone apparently he was recording from front on as well.
Speaker 3: And I'll before the audio the video. Sorry, So all
Speaker 3: these just completely they can completely debunkable contentions have have
Speaker 3: just been allowed to kind of just just hang over
Speaker 3: this this incident, and it's just not right, you know,
Speaker 3: So just to clearing the record is probably the most important. Man.
Speaker 3: And I was saying to here before, Chuck, but I
Speaker 3: didn't set out to write a book for sake of it.
Speaker 3: I just all these things that I was finding that
Speaker 3: I could not find recorded anywhere else. You know, witnesses, names,
Speaker 3: people that have never even been You can't even find
Speaker 3: them all. Uh, you know Mary Farrell, some of these people.
Speaker 3: You know, it's just lost to history. So it was
Speaker 3: all about just bringing it all back out into the
Speaker 3: in the name somewhat. And yes I do definitively describe
Speaker 3: how Ruby was able to get into the basement as well,
Speaker 3: so you know, because that was always very contentious to right.
Speaker 2: So when you're you're going to present at Lancer this year,
Speaker 2: I don't want you obviously to tell us you know
Speaker 2: the details, but can you give us an idea about
Speaker 2: what your presentation will be, because, as I said, I'm
Speaker 2: looking forward to it, and I'm somebody who has to
Speaker 2: dive you know, dove into has dived into. I don't
Speaker 2: know which is better to say or English is not
Speaker 2: my strongest suit here. But the thing is, you know,
Speaker 2: even when people talked about the whole okay, so related
Speaker 2: to Ruby and audio, uh people say, and and even
Speaker 2: when I spoke to d A, you know, former Wade
Speaker 2: in the early nineties, you know, he had to tell
Speaker 2: everybody that story about do you know who told me?
Speaker 2: Who corrected me about that whole you know, uh freak
Speaker 2: Cuban movement thing. You know, he loved to tell everybody.
Speaker 2: Jack Ruby was in the back of the room correcting
Speaker 2: him then. And it's funny because I listened to that
Speaker 2: audio and there's more than one voice that comes in
Speaker 2: at that time making that correction, and people for years
Speaker 2: challenged me on that. I said, no, just Jack Ruby,
Speaker 2: and it wasn't just Jack Ruby. Ruby's voice is there.
Speaker 2: I can hear it, and I know it's Ruby's voice,
Speaker 2: but there's another voice. There's another smoother or deeper voice
Speaker 2: along with his that also says the same thing, and
Speaker 2: it sounds like, yes, it is closer to the microphone. Good,
Speaker 2: good point, closer to the microphone that's recording at that time.
Speaker 2: That piece of footage when Da Wade is saying, oh,
Speaker 2: he was a remember of the you know, free frea
Speaker 2: Cuba movement or something, and the correction comes from the
Speaker 2: audience and it's two voices. Now I don't know who
Speaker 2: the other person was, but yeah, go ahead.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know you're right at least at least two voices.
Speaker 3: Wade's an interesting uh interesting with his interactions were very
Speaker 3: big over that weekend because because you know he said
Speaker 3: about being the you know, the representatives for the for
Speaker 3: the press. You know, he broke at interviews, you know,
Speaker 3: for people like Pappus and who else what was his name,
Speaker 3: Glenn Duncan from Gordon Clendon's car Old, you know, so
Speaker 3: he really he was very busy making sure he was
Speaker 3: known and seen that at City Hall across that weekend.
Speaker 3: That makes you wonder, you know, I was was was
Speaker 3: he meant to have taken a shot at Oswald as
Speaker 3: as the midnight press conference after it had at least
Speaker 3: been charged with with Tippet shooting, you know, because he
Speaker 3: was so.
Speaker 2: Like that well, and there are people that don't realize that.
Speaker 2: Over the course of the whole weekend, you can catch him,
Speaker 2: you know, in various pieces of footage kind of almost
Speaker 2: stalking Oswald. Because Oswald's being transferred from room to room,
Speaker 2: He's yelling out different things, I committed no acts of violence,
Speaker 2: all this stuff he's saying, you know, while he's trying
Speaker 2: to shout out things at the press, you know, far
Speaker 2: beyond just when he was first arrested. Even when they're
Speaker 2: moving in from room to room, you can hear him,
Speaker 2: you know, shouting things, and that Ruby's just kind of
Speaker 2: hanging out there, you know, looking around, watching, and you know,
Speaker 2: mostly that's excused by well, you know, Ruby was kind
Speaker 2: of a hanger on with the police, which is a
Speaker 2: bad description. It's just that, Look, if you're working in
Speaker 2: the gray or black market in a city, if you
Speaker 2: don't know and pay off some cops, then you're not
Speaker 2: doing your job. So Ruby obviously was gonna, you know,
Speaker 2: we've heard the stories, get bottles of boo and a sandwiches,
Speaker 2: and yeah, that's what you do when you're running a
Speaker 2: criminal thing in a city with a lot of cops.
Speaker 2: You make a bunch of cops think of you as
Speaker 2: their buddy, your friend. You hook them up with stuff.
Speaker 2: You know, if you're in prostitution, you hook them up
Speaker 2: with hookers. If you got you know, a bar, you
Speaker 2: hook them up with booze. If you got strippers, you
Speaker 2: give them private shows. That's what you do. So Ruby
Speaker 2: was doing his job as a gray market or black
Speaker 2: market guy in a city like Dallas. That's why he's
Speaker 2: hanging around the police and so familiar with them. But
Speaker 2: that doesn't explain why he's you know, literally milling around
Speaker 2: with all the media clogging the hallways, you know, wheeling
Speaker 2: in these giant cameras, which were not small things back then,
Speaker 2: wheeling in these giant cameras so they could broadcast live
Speaker 2: and follow what's happening live and the midnight press conference
Speaker 2: we all know about, but there was a lot more
Speaker 2: to it, and there was constant footage, and he's in
Speaker 2: a ton of it over the weekend, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: and that's got to be relevant because you know what
Speaker 2: he was there just I'm interested. I'm interested, and decided
Speaker 2: on Sunday, I'm going to shoot him. I got a
Speaker 2: problem with that idea. I don't know. It seems like
Speaker 2: he was stalking him over the weekend. What are your
Speaker 2: thoughts on that. Yeah, I.
Speaker 3: Think the pitch to Ruby to be the shooter of Oswald,
Speaker 3: I think it would have been pretty straightforward. Yeah, do
Speaker 3: do this Jack here. It'll look like a chronic passion.
Speaker 3: Will You'll be out of jail in two or three years.
Speaker 3: We'll take care of your dads to your walk out
Speaker 3: a hero. Then you'll be doing us a message. Sol
Speaker 3: and I think that was literally the pitch that Ruby
Speaker 3: would have gotten when that was given to him. Obviously,
Speaker 3: we don't know because he's his movements across that way,
Speaker 3: Ken and I do. I do track them in my book.
Speaker 3: Very he's he's all over the place, and probably more interestingly,
Speaker 3: he's in different states of mind as well. You know,
Speaker 3: if you talk to his rabbi, he was in in
Speaker 3: a real state of grief. His sister as well, he's
Speaker 3: living in Dallas, noted that he was grief stricken. He
Speaker 3: had that meeting with Harry Elson and Kay Coleman in
Speaker 3: the car in a garden very close to the city Hall,
Speaker 3: and then after that he's knocking around on a twist
Speaker 3: board in one of the newspaper offices, you know, him
Speaker 3: and his brother. I think we're starting to or had
Speaker 3: tried to get up and running in Dan Dallas's side.
Speaker 3: Sob was all over the place, all over the shop
Speaker 3: physically and mentally. Yeah, the evidence of him stalking Oswald, yeah,
Speaker 3: I think it's there and there's definitely a case for it.
Speaker 3: I don't think I'll tell you this, Chuck. I don't
Speaker 3: think that he was outside of Dallas City Hall on
Speaker 3: the morning of Sunday, November the twenty fourth, where he's
Speaker 3: seen as looking disheveled and interested, and he was asking
Speaker 3: the guys in the news truck outside, you know, if
Speaker 3: if for Oswald's transfer has taken place or when it's happening.
Speaker 3: I don't I don't really go with that theory because
Speaker 3: Jack Ruby was an impeccable dresser. He wouldn't have let
Speaker 3: himself be seen, you know, looking side disheveled as these guys,
Speaker 3: you know, people like Red Walker, whose couple of guys
Speaker 3: in the truck out front. So I think he was
Speaker 3: at the back of his apartment for that morning and
Speaker 3: taking phone calls, you know, being being ready to get
Speaker 3: to get whether he was being coaxed, or you know
Speaker 3: he was you know, he needed a bit of nudging,
Speaker 3: a bit of convincing. I theorized who was positioned perfectly
Speaker 3: in City Hall to be able to lead him, get
Speaker 3: him in position at the Western Union, to give himself
Speaker 3: an alibi. Which is an important point because Karen Carlin
Speaker 3: was apparently so desperate for money that weekend, because Ruby
Speaker 3: had shut down his clubs out of grief and respect
Speaker 3: for the president her and her husband, I asked Ruby
Speaker 3: for an advance of her pay, and the story goes
Speaker 3: that it was one of the nights over that weekend.
Speaker 3: I think it was the Friday night Ruby set up
Speaker 3: to meet the Carlins of the current Cel club to
Speaker 3: give them their money. But he didn't show. No one
Speaker 3: was there, so they still needed their money, and when
Speaker 3: they contacted him again, he said, well, good, I will
Speaker 3: send you a transfer. I'll allow you some money from
Speaker 3: Western Union tomorrow morning. So was that part of his
Speaker 3: intention to be in the vicinity of City Hall, and
Speaker 3: therefore they take them with the emotion of the occasion,
Speaker 3: to spontaneously know something about Oswald. But but there were
Speaker 3: certainly people that were writing for Ruby to band position,
Speaker 3: and that's when the when the transfer got underway, right.
Speaker 3: I think it was as simple as that.
Speaker 2: Another thing is you mentioned the pitch to Oswald and
Speaker 2: this will be the last thing. I throw it you
Speaker 2: out of left field, I promise, and then we'll close
Speaker 2: this out. But you know, part of the pitch to
Speaker 2: Oswald about you know, to Ruby about Oswald could have
Speaker 2: easily been these weird little things in Texas law because okay,
Speaker 2: I know people have talked about mac Wallace and no,
Speaker 2: I don't believe he was involved in the assassination, but
Speaker 2: he was convicted of murder basically and then given no
Speaker 2: jail time. And why is that? There's this thing in
Speaker 2: Texas law where pretty much, you know, it's hard to explain,
Speaker 2: but it's sort of like, if you can justify the
Speaker 2: reason why you killed somebody, they'll convict you and give
Speaker 2: you no time. And that was not exclusive to Texas law,
Speaker 2: but kind of a unique thing in American justice, and
Speaker 2: you can see it. Yeah, And the weird thing is,
Speaker 2: you know, that's not too you know, that's not too
Speaker 2: far flung from it. And the idea is it's another
Speaker 2: shooting case, right, crime of passion, where he shoots the
Speaker 2: you know, the golf professional, right and all that. And
Speaker 2: here's the thing. Ruby might have thought he was going
Speaker 2: to get off, which would explain some of the weird
Speaker 2: statements he made immediately after about kind of being confused, thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: you guys aren't going to really break my chops over this, right.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 2: I'm not saying that that's a fact. What I'm saying
Speaker 2: is it's plausible that somebody could say, look, you know,
Speaker 2: in Texas law, if you can show and people will
Speaker 2: probably sympathize with you wanting to kill the COMI, you know,
Speaker 2: because it was already established over the weekend. I mean,
Speaker 2: they had already started to play those portions of the
Speaker 2: New Orleans broadcast all across the country in audio form
Speaker 2: on the radio about oh I am a Marxist Leninist
Speaker 2: and all that. They were already doing that. So you
Speaker 2: killed the Kami, you killed the president. I think people
Speaker 2: have sympathize with you. Would not have been in the
Speaker 2: rational pitch to Jack Rubin, you know, who also had
Speaker 2: already experienced probably not getting arrested by the cops and
Speaker 2: everything else in that city because he took care of
Speaker 2: the cops again. So he's thinking look, guys, I take
Speaker 2: care of you. You shouldn't arrest me. And besides, I
Speaker 2: didn't really do anything wrong. You know, it almost starts
Speaker 2: to make sense some of the weird statements now when
Speaker 2: he goes completely off the why you know, off the
Speaker 2: reservation later talking about people being slaughtered outside of the
Speaker 2: jail cell and everything. You know, I've got my questions
Speaker 2: about that, and I really do feel like that interesting
Speaker 2: visit from that doctor might have caused that. But that's
Speaker 2: yet another issue and goes outside of the death of
Speaker 2: the army Oswald but does go into his convicted killer.
Speaker 2: So there you have it. And even the weirdness of
Speaker 2: Bellie's defense initially about this whole you know, the lights
Speaker 2: and he had some sort of brain damage and reaction
Speaker 2: you know, based on it, like you know, epilepsy, like
Speaker 2: an epileptic attack almost. I mean, yes, I'm explaining it
Speaker 2: almost like it sounded coming out of bell Eye's mouth
Speaker 2: on TV, which you know, was sort of like, well,
Speaker 2: you know, he's damaged and he just reacted and this happens. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, a lot to it, a lot to unpack,
Speaker 2: but maybe that's book number two for you. What happened
Speaker 2: to Ruby afterwards, I don't know, you know, did you
Speaker 2: cover it in this by the way.
Speaker 3: Uh So, the what I wanted to do with the
Speaker 3: book is is retal just kind of I treaded it
Speaker 3: like a layers beneath the beneath of surface, you know.
Speaker 3: So we start with the context of obviously November the
Speaker 3: twenty second and how Oswald came to be in custody,
Speaker 3: But then I really really take a very deep dive,
Speaker 3: very quickly, lay by layer in terms of how the
Speaker 3: shooting was reported so viewed and everything like that, the investigations,
Speaker 3: and then start to unpack the witnesses and the media,
Speaker 3: the Dallas police, you know, the top of the ramp
Speaker 3: where all Vaughn was. I really really dive into that
Speaker 3: and exonerate him for how Ruby could have entered up
Speaker 3: there and therefore going to where will be really into
Speaker 3: the building through and go into minute detail because yeah,
Speaker 3: like we've like we've said, there are just so many
Speaker 3: aspects to this and not one thing that I think
Speaker 3: a lot of people don't know is that the cover
Speaker 3: up was was or the fix was in straightaway on
Speaker 3: Jack Ruby as well, because there was you know, there
Speaker 3: are all all these statements attributed to him up on
Speaker 3: the fifth law Jail, Pat Dean s I didant. Patrick
Speaker 3: Dean contended that Ruby was very open with how he
Speaker 3: came in through the down the main Street ramp when
Speaker 3: no one else, including Forest Souls and the three other detectives,
Speaker 3: vouched for that at the time. So Pat Dean is
Speaker 3: putting all these words in Ruby's mouth from the get go,
Speaker 3: and then then all these other statements about you know,
Speaker 3: Ruby saying he never wanted to kill Oswald when he
Speaker 3: saw him smirk, you know, on camera, or smirk at
Speaker 3: the press conference. You know, all those things were stuffed
Speaker 3: into Ruby's mouth, not very tight corroboration to back it up.
Speaker 3: And I think that was because they were always going
Speaker 3: to make sure that he owned for killing Oswald. You know,
Speaker 3: there was not going to be any chance of him
Speaker 3: beating it in two or three years. You know, it
Speaker 3: was a crime of passion. So I dive into that.
Speaker 3: So my presentation that JFK answer, it's really about promoting
Speaker 3: that they're not my book or anything like that. It's
Speaker 3: promoting the case as something that ought to be taken seriously,
Speaker 3: as an undercovered aspect of the of the to the
Speaker 3: Kennedy assassination. And I want to ignite Sparks and other
Speaker 3: people to maybe take an interest in it, because you know,
Speaker 3: when more people are doing digging and applying their different
Speaker 3: perspectives on things that I think that But you know,
Speaker 3: when everyone's got right intent, you know they're driven by
Speaker 3: the truth, not by their own agenda or anything like that,
Speaker 3: they're not not operating to some pre determined conclusion, then
Speaker 3: I think that's where a lot of good work can happen.
Speaker 3: So it's it's it's going to be good. It's going
Speaker 3: to be there all overview of the what was wrong
Speaker 3: with the shooting, how it happened, and obvious, I think
Speaker 3: the fix was in and bought a very taut circle
Speaker 3: of DPDA personal for.
Speaker 2: It right and again.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: The website is death to Justice dot com, deathtosice dot com.
Speaker 6: Uh.
Speaker 2: And on that website directly you say there were two
Speaker 2: assassinations on the weekend of November twenty second, nineteen sixty three.
Speaker 2: And to recognize the book, you'll find it with a
Speaker 2: with a dark revolver on the cover pointing to the left.
Speaker 2: Very simple cover which I appreciate as well.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 2: And it looks like there's a book forward written by
Speaker 2: Paul blow too. Huh.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so I was very very grateful to get
Speaker 3: that from from Paul Is. Yeah, like I said earlier,
Speaker 3: he's and he's working some you know some something order
Speaker 3: got very heavily and it's was a large piece of
Speaker 3: how I came to the Garrison Index, which is how
Speaker 3: I stumbled onto the all shooting side of the things.
Speaker 3: So yeah, we're really grateful to get that forward from Paul.
Speaker 3: And I have illustrations in the book as well, and
Speaker 3: probably less this goes out, Chuck, the book is just
Speaker 3: waiting to be re released as a hardback version, so yeah,
Speaker 3: it might not be so readily available right now, but
Speaker 3: that that will be out in the coming weeks. And yeah,
Speaker 3: it's a book that tells the story of the Oswald shooting.
Speaker 3: And yeah, it gives some gives some diagrams in there,
Speaker 3: it goes into granular detail. But the book aside, I've
Speaker 3: also just started, as you said, the book cast, and
Speaker 3: that's that's really I've already it's already world out. I've
Speaker 3: had some fellow researchers on to talk about November twenty
Speaker 3: second and Oswald's background. So people up Paul Blow Johnny Cans.
Speaker 3: I've had a great chat with him and Scott Read.
Speaker 3: We touched on the Walker assassination attempt, all those things,
Speaker 3: which just kind of set the context for obviously how
Speaker 3: Oswell come today and police custody and end up dying.
Speaker 3: But the book is basically me just going into running
Speaker 3: in the order of the actual book, but in podcast format.
Speaker 3: So I'll be playing some you know, audio clips and
Speaker 3: going into a little bit more detail, you know, on
Speaker 3: various facets of the shootings. So fair enough, just because
Speaker 3: I just want to want to keep it out there
Speaker 3: and give it a profile.
Speaker 2: Right look, And I recommend the podcast. I recommend the book.
Speaker 2: I hope to get myself a I like hardback, you know,
Speaker 2: physical copies of books. I hope to get one when
Speaker 2: they when it does become available, uh, because I think
Speaker 2: this will be again one of those, you know, books
Speaker 2: that's worth having on your shelf. Remember, guys, I always
Speaker 2: tell you about that I've read three hundred books. And
Speaker 2: I'm not telling you to buy three hundred of them.
Speaker 2: Uh you know, I lost count somewhere around there. Uh
Speaker 2: three hundred and yeah, you don't need to buy them all,
Speaker 2: but I can give you a shelves worth of them
Speaker 2: to buy and this would go on it. Uh maybe
Speaker 2: two shelves at this point, but still it's worth it.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know, quick curiosity though, since you go
Speaker 2: into Oswald's background, have you ever looked into uh, you know,
Speaker 2: Ernest Tittabitt's book and him as an individual. I'm one
Speaker 2: of the few people who's actually interviewed him, uh, you know,
Speaker 2: on a podcast. But I find his insights extremely interesting.
Speaker 3: Uh you know what I'd like to I'm not I'll
Speaker 3: be honest. Yeah, I've stuyed very very focused on Oswald.
Speaker 3: Obviously I was well trading, but he's he's laugh in
Speaker 3: Russia is something that yeah, I think again that's that's
Speaker 3: just another uh yeah, another massive aspect to it, and
Speaker 3: the fact that it has brought out that book out
Speaker 3: about it, but I want to check it out. So
Speaker 3: I'm very interested in him as well.
Speaker 2: Yeah. No, just for the point of his background, it's interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, just the fact that tin of it's the
Speaker 2: first guy I ever heard say that, you know, Marina
Speaker 2: wasn't the first woman he asked to marry him in Russia,
Speaker 2: you know, or in Minsk, I should say. Really, Yeah,
Speaker 2: which is weird, but you know, but there you go.
Speaker 2: And I actually went and checked on a bunch of
Speaker 2: stuff that he's It's wild. People tried to twist him
Speaker 2: into something else. I mean, it's crazy. But anyway, I
Speaker 2: recommend your work. I'm looking forward to seeing your presentation
Speaker 2: and got to tell you, yeah, it's absolutely one of
Speaker 2: those things that, you know, if you really want to
Speaker 2: get into the circumstances that occurred here, it's important to
Speaker 2: remember that. Indeed, you know, Oswald wasn't the only person
Speaker 2: who died that weekend, obviously, but he died that weekend
Speaker 2: as well, and the circumstances of that have forever shaped
Speaker 2: perception regarding the assassinate of the thirty fifth president. One
Speaker 2: way or another. You can argue that point. Cool and uh,
Speaker 2: you know, Paul, I really appreciate you taking the time
Speaker 2: to do this with me, and I hope a lot
Speaker 2: more people, you know, get involved with your work and
Speaker 2: follow it. So thanks, And if there's anything you want
Speaker 2: to say in closing the floor is yours, sir.
Speaker 3: Thanks Chuck. I really appreciate your time. I enjoy your show,
Speaker 3: and I'm really looking forward to the Jeff Collins the
Speaker 3: Conference for me. Obviously being in Australia, I've only been
Speaker 3: able to kind of talk with researchers and pay about
Speaker 3: yourself other teams and email and things like that. So
Speaker 3: to actually enough I have been to Dallas, but it
Speaker 3: will be yeah, fantastic to actually uh yeah, made a
Speaker 3: lot of people and hopefully just have some good conversations.
Speaker 3: I'll have copies of my book there. But now that's
Speaker 3: all m by the bar. I just want to yeah,
Speaker 3: make some make some fellow in your research and yeah,
Speaker 3: just carry on the good constructive conversations about that weekend
Speaker 3: that changed the world. You know it did in an
Speaker 3: on an Australian sign that it really did. So we
Speaker 3: need to we need to keep keepe the you know,
Speaker 3: the lot shining on this topic. And as I signed
Speaker 3: my book, you know, if we do that, then the
Speaker 3: people behind the you know that they're relying on the
Speaker 3: hook of the truth. That's important.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And look I hope that, in fact, I hope
Speaker 2: that you end up at the usual trip to Campezes
Speaker 2: that we all seem to take. We go there, uh
Speaker 2: you know, because Ruby had a table. You know, have
Speaker 2: you have you eaten there? By the way, have you
Speaker 2: tried their food. It's not bad. Get on, it's it's
Speaker 2: not bad. So so look, if anybody's organizing one of
Speaker 2: those kind of trips, and uh, you know they definitely
Speaker 2: include Paul on that because I think you'd like to
Speaker 2: go to the restaurant where Ruby had a seat. They
Speaker 2: had a marker there saying, you know, this was Jack
Speaker 2: Ruby's table.
Speaker 1: Uh.
Speaker 2: And of course the Campezes, you know that who they were,
Speaker 2: the brothers, And you know I asked, a friend of
Speaker 2: mine asked, and I asked also to make sure. I mean,
Speaker 2: is this still the same family that you know runs this? Yes?
Speaker 2: Uh so just just saying and the food's not bad.
Speaker 2: So there you go. Anyway, Uh, Paul Abbott everybody again, Uh,
Speaker 2: death to Justice dot com. But also the book and
Speaker 2: I've already described it. There will be links in the
Speaker 2: show notes and of course images on the graphics. So go.
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