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That's Chumbuck 48 00:01:59.079 --> 00:02:00.280 Casino dot com. 49 00:02:00.040 --> 00:02:10.560 The Prettimary d wherever. By lossing your conditions eighteen plus. 50 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:15.919 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 51 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.039 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 52 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:26.360 written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every 53 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:30.080 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 54 00:02:30.199 --> 00:02:34.360 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your 55 00:02:34.400 --> 00:02:49.360 host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. When Elizabeth 56 00:02:49.360 --> 00:02:52.879 Andys was found bound, stabbed, and strangled in her Ohio 57 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:57.039 apartment in nineteen seventy eight, police and prosecutors decided within 58 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.759 hours it was an open and shut case. Within days, 59 00:03:00.800 --> 00:03:03.319 Bob Young, a twenty three year old football player whod 60 00:03:03.319 --> 00:03:07.039 found his college sweetheart's lifeless body on their bedroom floor, 61 00:03:07.719 --> 00:03:10.520 was charged with their murder. To this day, police and 62 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:13.800 prosecutors still say they had the right guy. Even though 63 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:17.719 two juries, one criminal and one civil, disagreed and Young 64 00:03:17.800 --> 00:03:22.039 walked away a free man. Beth's case went cold. Nearly 65 00:03:22.120 --> 00:03:26.479 four decades later, two Cincinnati reporters re examined the murder 66 00:03:26.479 --> 00:03:29.680 and discovered that law enforcement ignored leeds that might have 67 00:03:29.759 --> 00:03:34.120 uncovered who really killed Beth Andy's. It wasn't that there 68 00:03:34.159 --> 00:03:37.000 weren't other people to look at. There were plenty, but 69 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.840 no one bothered until now. The book they were featuring 70 00:03:40.879 --> 00:03:45.080 this evening is Accused, The Unsolved Murder of Elizabeth Andys, 71 00:03:45.680 --> 00:03:49.120 with my special guest journalists and authors Amber Hunt and 72 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:52.599 Amanda Rossman. Welcome to the program, and thank you very 73 00:03:52.680 --> 00:03:56.840 much for agreeing to this interview. Amber Hunt and Amanda. 74 00:03:56.560 --> 00:03:59.639 Rossman, thank you for having us. 75 00:04:01.919 --> 00:04:05.560 Thank you very much. I hope I didn't pronounce mispronounced 76 00:04:05.560 --> 00:04:07.479 Elizabeth's last name. 77 00:04:08.039 --> 00:04:09.439 No, nope, that was right. 78 00:04:09.479 --> 00:04:15.520 Andy's Okay, great, Let's talk right away how you both 79 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:18.240 came to We alluded to it that you were working 80 00:04:18.279 --> 00:04:21.319 for the Cincinnati Inquirer. But tell us how you came 81 00:04:21.439 --> 00:04:25.680 to want to and feel the need to compel to 82 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:29.519 write this story do this podcast Accused, but especially this 83 00:04:29.560 --> 00:04:34.600 book Accused. Tell us about that. The genesis of it, Well. 84 00:04:34.360 --> 00:04:39.480 It started with a lawyer who was representing Beth's family 85 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:43.800 and she had started to do some digging around in 86 00:04:43.839 --> 00:04:46.680 the case and she hit a brick wall. So she 87 00:04:46.959 --> 00:04:51.160 happened to be acquainted with the lawyer who represents the 88 00:04:51.160 --> 00:04:54.040 inquirer in legal matters when we have to sue for 89 00:04:54.120 --> 00:04:56.879 documents and that sort of thing. So she mentioned it 90 00:04:56.920 --> 00:04:59.800 to him more like in passing, can you believe I'm 91 00:04:59.800 --> 00:05:03.000 de with this kind of stuff? He recognized it as 92 00:05:03.439 --> 00:05:08.000 a possible story, mentioned it to an editor here again 93 00:05:08.160 --> 00:05:11.279 just sort of in passing, and then it was given 94 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:14.319 to me to look at because I've written through crime 95 00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:17.079 books before and I always seemed to get drawn back 96 00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:20.959 into crime coverage. So I was looking at the case 97 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:26.360 and it didn't take very long to realize that it 98 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:30.959 wouldn't just be a story about, you know, a case 99 00:05:31.000 --> 00:05:34.600 that still isn't solved. There were actual leads to follow, 100 00:05:35.120 --> 00:05:38.120 and so I asked to be paired up with a photographer, 101 00:05:38.160 --> 00:05:43.759 which is what Amanda was at the time, and we 102 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:50.519 just became really fixated on the case, borderline obsessed. 103 00:05:50.879 --> 00:05:53.199 At the time, we didn't know what kind of route 104 00:05:53.360 --> 00:05:55.160 it would take, so we didn't know if it would 105 00:05:55.199 --> 00:05:58.120 stay a story, if it would lend itself to more 106 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:03.279 of a documentary video. Once we started doing the interview, 107 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:09.360 hearing the voices of best friends and talking with these 108 00:06:09.439 --> 00:06:12.399 folks that should have been talked to back in the day. 109 00:06:12.920 --> 00:06:17.959 It just lended itself to podcast form. 110 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:22.639 Now this book is in terms of the podcast. Again, 111 00:06:22.680 --> 00:06:25.560 we talked about the transcript, So what is it exactly 112 00:06:25.600 --> 00:06:29.839 the book represents as compared to the podcast or in 113 00:06:29.879 --> 00:06:31.680 relation to the podcasts. 114 00:06:31.720 --> 00:06:35.120 The transcript So if you have, if you have the 115 00:06:35.199 --> 00:06:39.160 podcast memorized, I suppose it won't be that exciting for you. 116 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:41.680 But I have to say I wrote the episodes and 117 00:06:41.720 --> 00:06:45.920 when I read them compiled, I was reminded of things 118 00:06:45.920 --> 00:06:49.560 that I had forgotten in the reporting process. So I 119 00:06:49.600 --> 00:06:54.000 think it's a different way to present the case, and 120 00:06:54.240 --> 00:06:57.680 it allows you to see the information in a different way. 121 00:06:58.199 --> 00:07:00.839 And we also recognize too that there you know, there 122 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.560 are a lot of people who don't necessarily listen to podcasts, 123 00:07:03.560 --> 00:07:07.120 so the book is a chance to reach a wider audience. 124 00:07:07.560 --> 00:07:10.040 Our goal the entire time was to try and tell 125 00:07:10.120 --> 00:07:13.399 back story in hopes of hitting the right people. Maybe 126 00:07:13.439 --> 00:07:17.360 somebody knows something out there. So this is another avenue 127 00:07:17.399 --> 00:07:19.519 that we can go down. 128 00:07:22.319 --> 00:07:26.399 To start this. You talk about the again, the place 129 00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:31.720 where all of this occurs in Oxford, Ohio. Talk about 130 00:07:31.720 --> 00:07:35.399 being a college town forty five minutes north of Cincinnati. Cincinnati, 131 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.160 tell us a little bit more about Oxford, Ohio and 132 00:07:39.199 --> 00:07:46.519 its characteristics and why she would have been in this 133 00:07:47.079 --> 00:07:51.000 Elizabeth Andy's why she was in Oxford, Ohio. 134 00:07:51.079 --> 00:07:59.199 Specifically, Elizabeth had just graduated from college and which is 135 00:07:59.360 --> 00:08:01.279 very much a small college town. 136 00:08:01.319 --> 00:08:02.040 Oxford is. 137 00:08:03.720 --> 00:08:07.079 It's very small police department at the time one of 138 00:08:07.120 --> 00:08:12.439 those places where the college kind of was the town. 139 00:08:12.560 --> 00:08:16.560 So you have these counties that live there, but kind 140 00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:19.759 of work in the area as well, so everybody tends 141 00:08:19.800 --> 00:08:24.639 to know everybody. Elizabeth had just graduated college, she was 142 00:08:24.680 --> 00:08:28.360 looking to move out of Oxford coming into Cincinnati, had 143 00:08:28.399 --> 00:08:31.879 gotten i think a new job, right she was set 144 00:08:31.920 --> 00:08:36.720 to start work and moved to Cincinnati with her boyfriend Bob. 145 00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:42.799 Now we're talking about this is the crime occurs in 146 00:08:42.840 --> 00:08:47.320 December nineteen seventy eight, but you were talking about just 147 00:08:47.360 --> 00:08:52.799 finishing college. Now tell us about Bob Young and their relationship. 148 00:08:52.919 --> 00:08:54.919 Beth and Bob Young's relationship. 149 00:08:56.720 --> 00:08:59.919 Sure, and just so you know, the Beth graduated just 150 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:01.960 two weeks before she was killed. She was one of 151 00:09:02.000 --> 00:09:05.039 those students who had an extra semester to finish up, 152 00:09:05.679 --> 00:09:09.240 and her living boyfriend, Bob young was in the same boat. 153 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:12.080 So the two of them had just graduated, along with 154 00:09:12.120 --> 00:09:16.039 another friend who was a roommate. So Bob was a 155 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:20.159 football player at Miami University, really kind of a soft 156 00:09:20.200 --> 00:09:24.600 spoken guy. It seemed like whatever aggression he had, he 157 00:09:25.120 --> 00:09:30.360 left it on the field. He really was enamored with 158 00:09:30.519 --> 00:09:34.200 Beth and they weren't quite sure what they were going 159 00:09:34.279 --> 00:09:38.039 to do after they graduated. There was talk of moving 160 00:09:38.039 --> 00:09:40.600 in together. There was talk of him going maybe out 161 00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:44.840 west and doing some work in his field of study, 162 00:09:44.879 --> 00:09:50.200 which was geology. But so the deal was that Beth 163 00:09:50.720 --> 00:09:54.399 was in her soon to be former apartment and she 164 00:09:54.480 --> 00:09:58.000 was cleaning up the place to move to Cincinnati, and 165 00:09:58.039 --> 00:10:03.240 she called her boyfriend, who was at home in Fairborn, Ohio, 166 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.000 and said, hey, you know, come help me. So he 167 00:10:08.000 --> 00:10:11.279 wasn't in a huge rush to go help clean an apartment, 168 00:10:11.559 --> 00:10:15.679 so he took a shower, he went and got some gas, 169 00:10:15.840 --> 00:10:17.919 and then he showed up there about an hour and 170 00:10:17.919 --> 00:10:23.000 a half after she had called, and things were not right. 171 00:10:23.120 --> 00:10:26.279 He knew right away something was wrong. There was no 172 00:10:26.360 --> 00:10:28.639 light on in the apartment, and then when he walked 173 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:32.320 in he found her body. So police at the time 174 00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:37.200 immediately focused on him, which is understandable. He found the body, 175 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.399 that is the first person you interview, but they interrogated 176 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:45.600 him for about fifteen hours straight and ended up getting 177 00:10:45.600 --> 00:10:50.600 a confession. So he confessed to having killed her, immediately recanted. 178 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:54.159 And what's amazing to me is that the jury in 179 00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:58.440 nineteen seventy nine, at that point, early nineteen seventy nine, 180 00:10:59.440 --> 00:11:03.279 actually believed him that he had falsely confessed. 181 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:06.919 Let's go back to the scene of the crime itself 182 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.399 and what we mentioned that he was volunteered to help 183 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:14.879 her move and pack some stuff, and by the time 184 00:11:14.919 --> 00:11:18.919 he got there then he had this horrible discovery, and 185 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:21.960 then he ran to the in the building. There was 186 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:23.879 no one home because it was a Christmas break and 187 00:11:23.919 --> 00:11:25.679 so he had to run to the next building to 188 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:28.240 find somebody that he could use a call to make 189 00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:30.000 the call, the nine one one call, of course, the 190 00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:34.679 days before cell phones. What did he find and what 191 00:11:34.799 --> 00:11:38.759 did he again, you talked about the police grabbing him 192 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.759 right away and then him being arrested the next day, 193 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:45.559 So tell us more about what was at the crime 194 00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.720 scene and what he did in response to that. 195 00:11:50.679 --> 00:11:55.120 He walked in to a darkened apartment and ended up 196 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:57.879 turning on a light in the bedroom and he saw 197 00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:02.639 back she was bound, had her hands tied behind her back, 198 00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:05.879 her feet were tied together. She clearly had been in 199 00:12:06.000 --> 00:12:09.039 some kind of struggle. He thought at first she had 200 00:12:09.080 --> 00:12:12.879 been shot, because she had what looked like holes in 201 00:12:12.919 --> 00:12:17.320 her chest, but in reality they were knife wounds, apparently 202 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.120 from a pair of sewing shears that were next to 203 00:12:21.399 --> 00:12:24.879 her body. So he sees this, he knows immediately that 204 00:12:25.000 --> 00:12:29.200 she is dead. I mean, it's visibly obvious, and he does. 205 00:12:29.399 --> 00:12:33.360 He runs out. He is banging on doors, nobody's answering. 206 00:12:33.480 --> 00:12:37.639 He runs out one building, goes into another, and finally 207 00:12:37.639 --> 00:12:42.320 finds somebody to use the phone. And you know, when 208 00:12:42.440 --> 00:12:46.159 police got there, they didn't find any evidence of a 209 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:48.440 break in, so that was one of the reasons they 210 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:52.919 zeroed in on him. But they brought him in straight away, 211 00:12:53.480 --> 00:12:57.919 and he never asked for a lawyer. He just went 212 00:12:57.960 --> 00:13:01.159 through this interrogation thinking. You note that he was helping 213 00:13:01.200 --> 00:13:03.679 the police figure out what had happened. 214 00:13:06.279 --> 00:13:12.919 Right right away. They talk about his whereabouts and the trip, 215 00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:15.960 the amount of time it would take from him to 216 00:13:15.960 --> 00:13:19.399 come from his apartment and go to Oxford to her apartment. 217 00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:24.480 What did he say in terms of that amount of time, 218 00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:27.559 and then you talk about again it's a little bit later. 219 00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:30.559 We're jumping ahead a little bit. But the police in 220 00:13:30.720 --> 00:13:35.279 that have have said that they refuted that time that 221 00:13:35.360 --> 00:13:37.039 he gave. So what's the time he gave and what 222 00:13:37.759 --> 00:13:39.399 did the police say in response to that? 223 00:13:41.320 --> 00:13:46.960 Well, Beth's phone call came around seven o'clock and Bob 224 00:13:47.080 --> 00:13:49.720 showered and all this, and there was an interesting time 225 00:13:49.840 --> 00:13:53.639 stamp on when he went to the local gas station. 226 00:13:54.240 --> 00:13:57.440 Somebody saw him there, but they were sure that he 227 00:13:57.559 --> 00:14:03.240 was there Hill eight, Yeah, because they knew because they 228 00:14:03.279 --> 00:14:05.679 had to rush home to watch more than Mindy on TV. 229 00:14:05.919 --> 00:14:10.159 And since this is before DVR days, that was a 230 00:14:10.200 --> 00:14:14.320 fixed time stamp for them, so that helped situate when 231 00:14:14.440 --> 00:14:17.679 he was at this gas station. So he said it 232 00:14:17.720 --> 00:14:19.399 took him an hour and a half to drive from 233 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:23.080 the gas station to Beth's apartment in Oxford. So this 234 00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:28.039 is Fairborn to Oxford, Ohio, and police came. Of course, 235 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:30.320 they did the same drive and they claimed that they 236 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:35.159 got it done in seventy five minutes. And those fifteen minutes, 237 00:14:36.320 --> 00:14:38.960 if you believe the police that he shaved that off, 238 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:43.759 that means that he walked in, got enraged, killed his girlfriend, 239 00:14:44.440 --> 00:14:48.519 and clean himself up all within this fifteen minute span. 240 00:14:49.679 --> 00:14:54.639 We did the drive for our reporting process, and it 241 00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:58.360 took us an hour and a half and a couple 242 00:14:58.480 --> 00:15:02.080 minutes change, so very. 243 00:15:02.000 --> 00:15:03.759 Very similar to what he had said. 244 00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:07.200 It was. And of course we're doing it, you know, 245 00:15:07.320 --> 00:15:12.120 nearly forty years later, so we're trying to give the 246 00:15:12.159 --> 00:15:15.440 benefit of the doubt. But we could not find anybody 247 00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:18.519 from the time, you know, somebody else did the drive 248 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:23.000 as well, Like, there was only one individual who claimed 249 00:15:23.039 --> 00:15:25.399 he got it done in seventy five minutes, and that 250 00:15:25.559 --> 00:15:29.639 was one of the police officers, who very clearly believed 251 00:15:29.639 --> 00:15:30.519 he had the right guy. 252 00:15:32.519 --> 00:15:37.919 Obviously, you talk about the police zero in on him, 253 00:15:37.639 --> 00:15:41.159 and as per custom, they look at people that are 254 00:15:41.159 --> 00:15:43.840 close and so that's why he's a natural suspect. But 255 00:15:43.960 --> 00:15:47.600 what was their theory as to why he had killed Beth, 256 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:48.559 his girlfriend? 257 00:15:50.720 --> 00:15:54.080 It was a pretty weak theory, to be honest, I think, 258 00:15:54.200 --> 00:15:57.519 you know, obviously I am no longer unbiased, but when 259 00:15:57.720 --> 00:16:01.240 I started reporting this, we made a point to keep 260 00:16:01.879 --> 00:16:06.159 all possibilities on the table. And their theory that they 261 00:16:06.399 --> 00:16:11.360 presented in trial was that she was nagging him to 262 00:16:11.639 --> 00:16:16.039 stay because he was considering going west. As I mentioned, 263 00:16:17.039 --> 00:16:21.759 she was nagging him. He didn't he wanted to break up, 264 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.200 or he didn't want to break up, like honestly, it's 265 00:16:24.200 --> 00:16:27.759 a little convoluted. So their theory was just that the 266 00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:32.679 graduation had messed up the relationship and at some point 267 00:16:32.720 --> 00:16:35.360 she must have been nagging him, and so he snapped, 268 00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:38.759 and he grabbed these scissors that were in her room 269 00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:39.879 and stabbed her. To that. 270 00:16:41.960 --> 00:16:46.679 Right, was there any witnesses or anyone that they could 271 00:16:46.720 --> 00:16:49.120 find that they used a trial to say that he 272 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:56.679 had any violent disposition or any incidents of him being, say, enraged. 273 00:16:58.440 --> 00:17:02.039 Absolutely, no one tested fight at trials saying that they 274 00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.400 had seen him fly into any kind of rage. Now, 275 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.200 we interviewed somebody who mentioned that when he was drinking, 276 00:17:09.680 --> 00:17:12.839 you know, one time he saw him yell at some 277 00:17:12.880 --> 00:17:15.400 people in a parking lot. But that's as close as 278 00:17:15.400 --> 00:17:21.519 we got. And we interviewed more than seventy people for 279 00:17:21.599 --> 00:17:22.319 this project. 280 00:17:25.079 --> 00:17:27.160 Now you talk about this trial that was in nineteen 281 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:31.160 seventy nine and he's being acquitted. Not to dwell on that, 282 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:34.680 because we have this investigation that you undertook, both of 283 00:17:34.680 --> 00:17:41.400 you undertook to deal with. But given that theory, given 284 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.880 them the no witnesses, what was the feature of that 285 00:17:46.039 --> 00:17:51.000 trial that was what made it evident that for the 286 00:17:51.079 --> 00:17:54.359 jury that he was innocent. What was it that seemed 287 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.200 to make the jury sway the jury and pronounce him 288 00:17:59.200 --> 00:18:00.240 and acquit him at try role? 289 00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:08.039 Well, when Bob Young gave his confession, he provided details 290 00:18:08.279 --> 00:18:11.799 that ultimately ended up not being true. They didn't match 291 00:18:11.839 --> 00:18:14.839 the crime scene. So what she was bound with the 292 00:18:14.920 --> 00:18:18.000 material he used, he got that wrong. For example, the 293 00:18:18.240 --> 00:18:22.400 order that she would have been tied up versus stabbed, 294 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:25.839 because it appeared she had been tied up first. We 295 00:18:26.000 --> 00:18:29.160 know that because there's a puncture wound in one of 296 00:18:29.200 --> 00:18:32.240 the ties, so that lets you know she's bound and 297 00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:39.359 then stabbed. So all of these little details that he 298 00:18:39.480 --> 00:18:43.200 could have, I mean, a confession should corroborate that stuff, 299 00:18:43.279 --> 00:18:46.759 and instead it did the opposite. And he was in 300 00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.759 a position to actually hire a lawyer, So he had 301 00:18:49.799 --> 00:18:53.000 a lawyer who you know, wasn't just punching a clock 302 00:18:53.240 --> 00:18:56.599 and presented a case saying, look, you know, this stuff 303 00:18:56.640 --> 00:19:00.640 doesn't line up. So how could his confession be true 304 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.759 if it doesn't match the crime scene? 305 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:11.839 Now, what is the situation, what prompts them to retry 306 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:16.279 him and him have another trial. Tell us about those circumstances. 307 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:20.920 It wasn't a retry. It was actually switching court. So 308 00:19:21.000 --> 00:19:25.960 when he was acquitted, he walks away and the prosecutor 309 00:19:26.000 --> 00:19:29.279 and police at the time say, you know what double 310 00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:33.160 jeopardy means. We can't retry him and we have no 311 00:19:33.240 --> 00:19:36.759 other suspects. The jury got this wrong. It happens the end. 312 00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:39.519 So the family came back around and said, okay, but 313 00:19:39.599 --> 00:19:43.640 what about civil liability? And so they suit him in 314 00:19:43.960 --> 00:19:48.720 civil court for wrongful death. So this is the way 315 00:19:48.759 --> 00:19:53.559 that oj Simpson ultimately was found guilty or liable in 316 00:19:53.599 --> 00:19:56.880 some way. They were trying to do that with Bob Young, 317 00:19:57.160 --> 00:20:00.480 but again the second jury found him not liable. Is 318 00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:07.079 really noteworthy because when you're when you're in civil courts, 319 00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:12.720 the threshold is preponderance of evidence, like so you're you 320 00:20:12.799 --> 00:20:15.400 need to be about fifty one percent sure, So it's 321 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.119 a much lower threshold than beyond a reasonable doubt, and 322 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:20.799 the jury still didn't go with it. 323 00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:26.799 Right now, you talk to all kinds of people that 324 00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:30.880 we mentioned that the police never spoke to, but you 325 00:20:30.920 --> 00:20:32.960 also spoke to people that the police did speak to, 326 00:20:33.240 --> 00:20:37.960 but of course you had more questions for them. It's 327 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:41.480 how many years later, forty something years later, thirty seven 328 00:20:41.559 --> 00:20:46.200 years later, pardon me, let's talk about the friend that 329 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:52.799 lived off campus with Beth. Sue parmally tell us about 330 00:20:53.039 --> 00:20:56.839 some of the conversations you have with her, and regarding what. 331 00:21:00.119 --> 00:21:04.960 Sue was interesting, I think it was really Sue's interview 332 00:21:05.039 --> 00:21:10.359 that told us this was an important story to tell, 333 00:21:10.559 --> 00:21:14.440 and because the way that the case was still affecting 334 00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:18.680 her nearly forty years later, it just reminds you that 335 00:21:19.000 --> 00:21:23.400 these horrible things happen, they don't go away. So the 336 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:26.920 interesting thing with her was that we were interviewing her 337 00:21:27.640 --> 00:21:31.880 and she mentions, you know, okay, Beth lived with me, 338 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:34.400 and she and Bob shared a room, and then it 339 00:21:34.440 --> 00:21:36.960 was me and my boyfriend, and we're both like, well, 340 00:21:37.000 --> 00:21:41.240 whoa hold up? Because nowhere in the case file with 341 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:46.039 their reference to a fourth roommate, and we've got fingerprints 342 00:21:46.079 --> 00:21:48.279 at the crime scene that they have been trying to 343 00:21:48.319 --> 00:21:50.680 match up with somebody, and it very well could just 344 00:21:50.680 --> 00:21:55.720 be another roommate. So that was interesting. That was a 345 00:21:55.799 --> 00:21:58.839 moment where we knew, okay, it wasn't just a matter 346 00:21:58.920 --> 00:22:01.880 of whether pardon me. It wasn't a matter of whether 347 00:22:02.000 --> 00:22:07.200 police had I interviewed everybody. They didn't. They didn't ask 348 00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:11.480 thorough questions at the time, and I'd like to think 349 00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:12.519 that we did. 350 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:21.559 You also talked to another friend named Hallie Chapman tell 351 00:22:21.640 --> 00:22:24.079 us about the relationship she had with Beth. Who is 352 00:22:24.119 --> 00:22:26.440 she and what are the kinds of things that she 353 00:22:27.039 --> 00:22:30.440 spoke to you about. 354 00:22:31.559 --> 00:22:34.880 Hallie had been really good friends with Beth. They met 355 00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:38.319 the first week of college and just hit it off 356 00:22:38.640 --> 00:22:42.079 straight away, and there was sort of this great group 357 00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:46.440 of friends, and Sue was part of that, and Halle's 358 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:51.960 then boyfriend now husband was part of that too. It's 359 00:22:52.079 --> 00:22:55.440 really from Hallie that we got the clearest picture of 360 00:22:55.480 --> 00:22:58.680 Beth's personality. That she was sort of like a you know, 361 00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.240 a bit ahead of her time. She's very feminist and 362 00:23:02.640 --> 00:23:05.880 you know, a bit bra burning and not the type 363 00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:12.599 to be anybody's doormat. It's through Hallie that I realized 364 00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:14.559 that I probably would have really liked Beth. 365 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:23.799 Right, Let's talk about an issue that comes up between 366 00:23:23.799 --> 00:23:30.880 the friends in your investigation about just the murder itself, 367 00:23:31.599 --> 00:23:35.039 and that Beth is speaking to her friends about an 368 00:23:35.079 --> 00:23:38.440 issue of an unlocked door at her apartment. Tell us 369 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:41.480 about this issue and how serious she was about this 370 00:23:42.160 --> 00:23:43.240 and her feelings about it. 371 00:23:46.400 --> 00:23:50.839 So Beth was in the process of moving, so she 372 00:23:51.319 --> 00:23:55.559 had been talking with maintenance about moving out. You know, 373 00:23:55.680 --> 00:23:58.480 she is ready to give the keys and stuff over 374 00:23:59.720 --> 00:24:04.559 when during her move she noticed after running errands that 375 00:24:04.640 --> 00:24:08.799 her door had been unlocked. So she got really mad 376 00:24:09.240 --> 00:24:13.240 at the maintenance department that they had left her door unlocked. 377 00:24:13.319 --> 00:24:15.960 You know, she had been moving boxes, she had been 378 00:24:15.960 --> 00:24:19.599 coming in and out. Her stuff was pretty much left 379 00:24:20.480 --> 00:24:24.720 open to the rest of the apartment community. So she 380 00:24:24.799 --> 00:24:30.119 had a confrontation with one of the maintenance men after 381 00:24:30.359 --> 00:24:34.559 accusing them of leaving her door unlocked. And she had 382 00:24:34.559 --> 00:24:38.680 told Hallie and maybe Sue, I don't remember. 383 00:24:40.000 --> 00:24:40.160 That. 384 00:24:40.200 --> 00:24:45.160 She was really mad that that happened. And then that's 385 00:24:45.160 --> 00:24:47.920 where we that's where we meet Steve Green. He's the 386 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:52.519 maintenance man that she had yelled at about leaving her 387 00:24:52.519 --> 00:24:53.119 door unlocked. 388 00:24:54.960 --> 00:25:00.400 Originally did how much of did police know of this? 389 00:25:00.519 --> 00:25:03.839 And what's interesting when you in this book is how 390 00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:08.200 much you took names that you said you took them 391 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:10.519 from the police memos and then went from there. But 392 00:25:11.920 --> 00:25:15.599 how much of this was new to you going in 393 00:25:15.599 --> 00:25:18.880 in terms of what were the surprises of the information 394 00:25:18.960 --> 00:25:20.480 it was coming to you from these people. 395 00:25:23.480 --> 00:25:25.480 It was like we would find that there was a 396 00:25:25.599 --> 00:25:32.039 kernel of information that they just didn't bother pursuing, So 397 00:25:32.160 --> 00:25:36.720 there would be there would be baby versions of what 398 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:39.640 we ultimately were able to report, but they didn't bother 399 00:25:39.759 --> 00:25:42.680 to really try and flesh it out. So they knew, 400 00:25:42.759 --> 00:25:45.759 for example, that Beth was pissed that day for in 401 00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:50.880