Speaker 1: Hey.
Speaker 2: My name is John O'Keefe and I live in Petaluma, California.
Speaker 1: My favorite golf course is Rooster Rhyme. This is Golf Smarter,
Speaker 1: episode one thousand and two.
Speaker 2: We were fortunate to be at the Masters. Number ten
Speaker 2: requires a draw off. The team Colin Morrikawa prefers to
Speaker 2: hit a fake, so part of preparation was him hitting
Speaker 2: a lot of three woods with the draw. He hit
Speaker 2: that fairway four out of four times. Now, it's not
Speaker 2: a preference, but we prepared for it in advance, thus
Speaker 2: we have a strategy for it. I think it's also
Speaker 2: that people are thinking they're forcing something. Oh I don't
Speaker 2: like back right hoole locations him at the middle of
Speaker 2: the green. It's not saying you have to do anything,
Speaker 2: but you're right. I think we get trauma because it
Speaker 2: does trigger something that we've done poorly before. So it
Speaker 2: reminds us, Oh, I don't like holes like this because
Speaker 2: I did blank on yesterday and so intend to flipping
Speaker 2: it go. Yeah, that might have been just a poort
Speaker 2: off swing, had nothing to do with the shot itself.
Speaker 2: But how do I now shift gears of what is
Speaker 2: the shot required? Have I done it before? If I
Speaker 2: can do a different shot, I can lay up. I
Speaker 2: think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too much. But
Speaker 2: I would also say what's required, A smooth little three wood,
Speaker 2: it's all that's required. I've done that before, I can
Speaker 2: do it again. But replacing that initial threat with what
Speaker 2: we've done before in a positive way is what I
Speaker 2: like to do.
Speaker 1: The difference between confidence over cockiness is subtle, but it's
Speaker 1: effective in lowering scores with reccessing.
Speaker 3: Hosts, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights
Speaker 3: from great golf minds to help you lower your score
Speaker 3: and raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 1: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf
Speaker 1: Smarter podcast.
Speaker 2: Rick, Hello, Fred, how are you?
Speaker 1: I am fine? I'm excited. I love this celebration that
Speaker 1: I've been doing on episode one thousand and everything around it,
Speaker 1: and getting a short list of people that I've wanted
Speaker 1: to have come back and just you know, air their
Speaker 1: complete knowledge and just grind you as best as I can.
Speaker 1: And you are high on the list because I just
Speaker 1: love our conversation. So thank you for.
Speaker 2: Coming back, Thank you for the invite.
Speaker 1: Unbelievable. So you know, we we've had multiple conversations. We
Speaker 1: talk about the flow code, we talk, we've and I've
Speaker 1: talked to many people about the mental aspect, and that's
Speaker 1: really the focus of this, uh this podcast. And it
Speaker 1: seems as if over the last twenty years of this
Speaker 1: podcast that the conversation about the mental game has only
Speaker 1: strengthened and maybe even came out of nowhere from before
Speaker 1: where it was all swing mechanics. And you are following that,
Speaker 1: especially with the flow code at theflow code dot com.
Speaker 1: Please check it out. What if you witness because you've
Speaker 1: been coaching for more than those twenty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's the evolution like I talk about
Speaker 2: with performance in goal specific I've been a member of
Speaker 2: the I am a member of the PGA, been coaching
Speaker 2: for over thirty years. I've seen a transition happening through coaching.
Speaker 2: And again, at first it is about swing mechanics and
Speaker 2: getting good fundamentals. We have to teach technique and skills,
Speaker 2: of course we do. And I think when we look
Speaker 2: at maybe what happened almost twenty years ago, we started
Speaker 2: seeing physical Fitness TPI come on board a little bit more,
Speaker 2: which was awesome. We started understanding the structure of your
Speaker 2: body is going to govern your function what you can
Speaker 2: and cannot do. Right. I'm a lot older now, I'm
Speaker 2: a little bit tighter than I was playing college golf.
Speaker 2: I can't do the same things I used to be
Speaker 2: able to do with this swinging right. So there's a
Speaker 2: physical component. I think we're getting more knowledge on that.
Speaker 2: I think we've got club fitting has improved. We've got
Speaker 2: even biomechanics, which is a fascinating the industry of force
Speaker 2: plates and three D and vests and all these things
Speaker 2: to understand how the body's working in real time is
Speaker 2: all fantastic. And yet I think that puzzle piece, which
Speaker 2: we have always believed has been important, but we are
Speaker 2: finally talking about it, is the mental side of the game.
Speaker 2: And we go back to you and I read tons
Speaker 2: of books. You go back to Nicholas books and Harvey
Speaker 2: Panic books. I mean there's some mental game stuff thrown
Speaker 2: in there, a little bit if you really want to
Speaker 2: dig in, right. Of course, management a little bit here
Speaker 2: and there. So I've seen a huge upswing in mental
Speaker 2: game coaching. Slash acceptance, I guess is the first word
Speaker 2: of why are we talking about it more? Because I
Speaker 2: think the players are talking about it more in their
Speaker 2: post round interviews and when they win, it's like, hey,
Speaker 2: what was this week about? You don't hear Yes, I
Speaker 2: got my great position of my takeaway. It's more like, hey,
Speaker 2: I got my mindset right, I got my focus right.
Speaker 2: I dealt with the pressure in this way. I did
Speaker 2: some breathing, and because it's out there, more people were going, oh, Rory,
Speaker 2: he's like me. I'm like him, Oh my gosh, we're
Speaker 2: on the same I can't swing like him, but I
Speaker 2: could go through some of the other mental stuff like him. Huh.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's something I can address. And I think there's
Speaker 2: some wonderful I mean, you have some of the best
Speaker 2: mental game coaches and experts on so you know, that's
Speaker 2: a growing field and us coaches, I believe we have
Speaker 2: a lot to say and it's starting to be accepted
Speaker 2: and applied finally.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I'm curious from your perspective as we
Speaker 1: talk about that twenty years, there's also been a tremendous
Speaker 1: amount of change in golf through technology, right, and a
Speaker 1: lot of it of course being you know ball speed
Speaker 1: and your launch angle and you know your dispersion all
Speaker 1: that stuff. The technology is there a GPS. But how
Speaker 1: has that impacted the mental aspect of what we do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think part of it is the certainty, like
Speaker 2: the measurables.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that when Backman or the first radar
Speaker 2: systems came out, we had factual data of what a
Speaker 2: ball did, and we also knew what the club and
Speaker 2: club face was doing to make it produce this and
Speaker 2: the attack angle, and so it wasn't guessing anymore, and
Speaker 2: I think that was liberating for a lot of coaches,
Speaker 2: like we're not guessing. Great when you have certainty of
Speaker 2: when the club does this and the ball does this,
Speaker 2: we can then reverse engineer the swing mechanics. That's a
Speaker 2: great space to be. Okay, then you start seeing this
Speaker 2: technology of the force plates and of the three D
Speaker 2: and all this to get even more of those specific measurements,
Speaker 2: and for some people in the industry that's been a
Speaker 2: key thing of knowing what works and what doesn't. Now
Speaker 2: I would we can go on a whole other discussion
Speaker 2: on is the technology being overused and we're not coaching
Speaker 2: enough that we can talk about here in a moment.
Speaker 2: I don't want the technology to be the coach right now,
Speaker 2: with the mental side, though, is I'm excited on two fronts.
Speaker 2: Is technology is starting to be used in the mental
Speaker 2: side of the game. If we want to measure the
Speaker 2: mental game. Up to this point, it's been very challenging.
Speaker 2: How do you measure the mental game. You take people's opinion, Hey,
Speaker 2: did you focus on the course? And if they said yes,
Speaker 2: then I guess that's our measurement. It was very subjective, right,
Speaker 2: But now it's exciting. And I've experimented with some of
Speaker 2: these technologies in the last fifteen years and they've accelerated.
Speaker 2: Is you know, eg, brain brain wave sets. Right, we
Speaker 2: can actually measure brain waves in real time while somebody's
Speaker 2: hitting a golf ball. We have heart rate variability, and
Speaker 2: we can measure not only the heart rate, but the
Speaker 2: stress response somebody is having in real time. We have
Speaker 2: more wearables on right, people are wearing I have this
Speaker 2: aura ring that measures heart rate and sleep patterns, and
Speaker 2: we have whoop. We have all these wearables now, so
Speaker 2: we're starting to uncover a little bit more about what's
Speaker 2: happening maybe deeper in somebody. Right, And it's going to
Speaker 2: only accelerate with virtual reality and augmented reality. We're gonna
Speaker 2: be able to put people in stressful environments, provide interventions
Speaker 2: to help them understand how to deal with those stressful environments.
Speaker 2: Just like if you're trying to make a let's say,
Speaker 2: a four foot put to win the Masters in the
Speaker 2: Career Grand Slam or something like that, right, I.
Speaker 1: Wonder what it could be talking about.
Speaker 2: So when we have these different environments, can we train
Speaker 2: for those? And that's what I'm excited moving forward as
Speaker 2: we go. So technology can be used for good or
Speaker 2: for evil, depending on how much we want to mess
Speaker 2: people's heads up and what are they focusing on. But
Speaker 2: I think a lot of coaches are relying on it
Speaker 2: to get more of the factual data of cause and effect.
Speaker 2: I think the mental game is still a few years behind,
Speaker 2: let's say the swing stuff, but it's getting there and
Speaker 2: we're gonna have some pretty cool stuff here in the
Speaker 2: next few years. Why behind because the wearable technologies still
Speaker 2: need to work in real time better. So like there's
Speaker 2: a lot of players on the PGA Tour that wear
Speaker 2: the whoop band, right, it does measure heart rate variability,
Speaker 2: but it can't do it by second by second, and
Speaker 2: in real time is where we as much as we
Speaker 2: would like it's close, it's getting there, but if it's
Speaker 2: giving a vague thing of what happened in the last minute,
Speaker 2: But we want to know what's happening when we make
Speaker 2: the golf swing. That's why I say the wearable technology
Speaker 2: is going to get better. I think we'll be able
Speaker 2: to measure more things and more accurately. You know, right now,
Speaker 2: we don't put a EEG headband on and somebody when
Speaker 2: they're playing a PGA tournave. I think in the future
Speaker 2: we're going to have some fun with that. So I
Speaker 2: think there it's still a little bit the accuracy, how
Speaker 2: quickly the data can be utilized, and how many markers
Speaker 2: we can we can start to measure.
Speaker 1: To the wearables, is that instant information and or is
Speaker 1: it something that posts around You can go back and
Speaker 1: look at like your arcos and looking at your.
Speaker 2: Stats correct a lot. It's going to be post right son.
Speaker 2: We can download like I have the AURA ring, I
Speaker 2: can download what my activity was for the last few hours.
Speaker 2: It will tell me activity score, stress response, all these
Speaker 2: time of things. It'll give me a heart rate variability score.
Speaker 2: But again it becomes a little too vague for when
Speaker 2: we're talking about a shot by shot basis, So yes,
Speaker 2: and I think it's gonna happen relatively quickly. We'll be
Speaker 2: able to put a marker there that oh I hit
Speaker 2: a drive on number one, I hit a putt on
Speaker 2: number two, and put markers there in real time to
Speaker 2: now look back and go, oh, why did that heart
Speaker 2: rate variability change here? Or why did the EEG go
Speaker 2: a little bit with faster brain waves beta instead of
Speaker 2: lowering humh. Then it's easy to have that conversation about
Speaker 2: the mental game. But yeah, how quickly the data can
Speaker 2: be uploaded is one key thing. And then in real time,
Speaker 2: Like again, if I'm playing in a tournament, I can't
Speaker 2: utilize that technology to improve my golf game, right art goes, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you can put your stats in and all that stuff,
Speaker 2: but you look at it afterwards and look for patterns.
Speaker 2: Right now, we can look for patterns, but it still
Speaker 2: needs to improve a little bit on the second by second.
Speaker 1: As a golf coach who works with some players at
Speaker 1: the highest level on the on the PGA Tour, can
Speaker 1: a wearable help you and will it get to the
Speaker 1: point where it can help you While you're doing, say
Speaker 1: a practice round with that player and you're there as
Speaker 1: their coach. Can you get that data and say, oh
Speaker 1: that the last shot, we could let's discuss what happened,
Speaker 1: what was going on in your body? Is that doable now?
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty close. My company Flow Coaching realize
Speaker 2: with a company called Focus Calm, which is a brain wave.
Speaker 1: He's bending over to pick something up.
Speaker 2: Yes, picking it up, and so we can then pop
Speaker 2: it on the forehead and measure brain wave activity in
Speaker 2: real time and I can swing with it on. So
Speaker 2: I could go out on the range and use it.
Speaker 2: I could go for a practice round and use it,
Speaker 2: and then it's downloaded to an app and we in
Speaker 2: real time could see a certain score of how we
Speaker 2: call active or stress somebody is, or how focused or
Speaker 2: calm somebody is. We can do that. I think again,
Speaker 2: you're going to get more acceptance of that in the
Speaker 2: future when the technology just gets a little bit quicker
Speaker 2: and easier to translate.
Speaker 1: And that data is of value to a coach.
Speaker 2: For me particularly, it is because I know the brainwave
Speaker 2: activity is correlates with somebody who's able to get into
Speaker 2: a flow state or not. Flow state is optimal experience.
Speaker 2: I'm completely immersed in the present moment, I believe I
Speaker 2: can take on this challenge in front of me, and
Speaker 2: the brainwave activity is a lot less. It's a lot lower.
Speaker 2: When somebody is in a highly stressed environment and they're
Speaker 2: more in a fear state, it goes beta waves. They
Speaker 2: get really really thinking a lot and that's harder now
Speaker 2: to perform at our best. Right, we're at our best
Speaker 2: when we're actually thinking less. So when we're now measuring
Speaker 2: brainwave activity, we have some marker. Now we don't know
Speaker 2: what they're thinking. Right, I can still be thinking happy thought,
Speaker 2: but I'm thinking way too many thoughts of the future.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm going to have this trophy of
Speaker 2: my guess that's positive, but probably don't want to be
Speaker 2: thinking about that when I'm trying to make a four
Speaker 2: foot putt. So it's like, where are we focusing on.
Speaker 2: We will want to have less brainwave activity happening during
Speaker 2: the execution of a golf shot, and so we can
Speaker 2: use brain waves to help us understand the state somebody's in,
Speaker 2: like I said, along with heart read variability, and there's
Speaker 2: other you know, not that we could ever do this
Speaker 2: in real time, but blood markers we would want to know,
Speaker 2: like hormone levels coming in cortisol, all these type of
Speaker 2: things that could also, of course affect our state that
Speaker 2: we're in.
Speaker 1: As Again, as a coach who coaches at the highest level,
Speaker 1: we know what the amateurs go through. We know what
Speaker 1: recreational golfers go through when they step up to the ball.
Speaker 1: The swing thoughts are overwhelming and disabling in many ways.
Speaker 1: But pros who've really grooved their swing, I mean, their
Speaker 1: pinpoint accuracy is remarkable to watch. Are they thinking swing
Speaker 1: mechanics at all? Are they trying to stay mentally healthy
Speaker 1: when they're stepping up to the ball. Where are they
Speaker 1: from your experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a loaded question. It's like week
Speaker 2: week to week. Yeah, it could be a different answer,
Speaker 2: oh for that player. So confidence has a big part
Speaker 2: of how much I'm thinking. Right, So if I'm playing
Speaker 2: well and I'm practicing well and I'm getting good results,
Speaker 2: there's a higher likelihood that my brain wave activity is
Speaker 2: going to be lower because I do trust what I have. Yet, again,
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter the level of player. When Tuesday, the
Speaker 2: ball's going a little sideway, Wednesday it's going a little sideways,
Speaker 2: they may get into panic mode, like oh, crap. I've
Speaker 2: got to figure out a way to find the fairway, okay,
Speaker 2: And I think everybody's experienced that, so I think it
Speaker 2: player to player. Yes, some players I think are able
Speaker 2: to accept that they don't have their A game and
Speaker 2: they can go out there a little more and go, okay,
Speaker 2: let's just get it around the golf course. Let's try
Speaker 2: to not to force anythings, while other, maybe inexperienced players
Speaker 2: press the panic button because they don't have their A game.
Speaker 2: And so I think it's a little bit of a
Speaker 2: gray area for players is when do they press a
Speaker 2: panic button, which is now I have three swing thoughts,
Speaker 2: or it's like, nope, here's my ballflight. I'm going to
Speaker 2: play with what I got. Let's go round one. Then
Speaker 2: after let's try to figure something out. But I think
Speaker 2: that comes through experience also. But all humans are humans,
Speaker 2: and we will tend to try to fix things with
Speaker 2: thinking and logic and analytical stuff. And if we go
Speaker 2: down that rabbit hole too much, it actually hinders the
Speaker 2: performance even more.
Speaker 1: Who has more of an impact on confidence And we're
Speaker 1: going to talk a lot about confidence. We have to
Speaker 1: coach or the caddy.
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I'm gonna. I'm going to say
Speaker 2: before they tee it up on the first hole, it
Speaker 2: would be the coach and then of course, shot by shot,
Speaker 2: the caddy now has a huge role. And I think
Speaker 2: if you work together, that you're now saying the same
Speaker 2: message and there's a consistency of message.
Speaker 1: Together being the coach and the caddy.
Speaker 2: Correct yes, that that we're using the same verbiage or
Speaker 2: or how we're going to go through preshot routines in
Speaker 2: a certain way, and it can be similar. But that
Speaker 2: end goal of what is the player need to hear?
Speaker 2: Maybe need is too strong of a word, but how
Speaker 2: do we put them in an optimal state with what
Speaker 2: we say, the questions we ask, and even how we
Speaker 2: react to how a player is going about it. But
Speaker 2: I think part of the coaches is to help them
Speaker 2: prepare for the event, and the caddies there is the
Speaker 2: anchor on a shot by shot basis.
Speaker 1: M h Okay, now let's get to confidence important, critical
Speaker 1: or yeah it's okay, we talk about loaded questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I look at because flow in the optical state,
Speaker 2: it starts with focus, so flow follows focus. The only
Speaker 2: way to get into a flow state is to be
Speaker 2: in the present moment. So we always say it starts
Speaker 2: with focus. Yet and next piece of this is somebody
Speaker 2: needs to believe they have the skills to match the
Speaker 2: challenge in front of them. So the belief system is confidence,
Speaker 2: my belief in my ability that I can execute the
Speaker 2: shot in front of me. Okay, now, we can certainly
Speaker 2: talk about what could enhance confidence, what could I do
Speaker 2: in the present moment, which we'll get into in a moment,
Speaker 2: But confidence is a core of it. If I believe
Speaker 2: I can do something, I'm in a much different attitude
Speaker 2: than oh crap, I hate this whole oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: and that's going to create a threat response, which is
Speaker 2: to stress fight or flight. So yes, confidence has a
Speaker 2: lot to do with how we perceive the shot in
Speaker 2: front of us. Can I do it or not? I
Speaker 2: think that's a big question to ask. And if the
Speaker 2: answer is no, I can pick another shot certainly, or
Speaker 2: I go, oh well, let's just try it anyways, and
Speaker 2: then good luck with that. So confidence is a core
Speaker 2: of the mental game. Our belief is very important.
Speaker 1: How do we convince ourselves? Right? Well, let me finish
Speaker 1: this question in the sense that I was once told
Speaker 1: by a listener, and we've used this all the time.
Speaker 1: Never follow a bad shot with a stupid shot. Yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So how do we get to the point where we're
Speaker 1: standing over the shot going just because I can see
Speaker 1: the flag doesn't mean I can make the shot.
Speaker 2: So now we're talking about either we're making a decision
Speaker 2: based on emotion, like I'm mad or I'm frustrated because
Speaker 2: of the last hole and I need to get it back.
Speaker 2: That's a post shot routine emotional regulation question. The other
Speaker 2: one is somebody who's just ultra aggressive risky. They're ego
Speaker 2: gets in the way I'm going to go for that
Speaker 2: whole location. Now it sounds like it's confidence, but it
Speaker 2: is it cockiness to the point where that is not
Speaker 2: playing the percentage of course, right, So I think that
Speaker 2: that those are two different things, and I think confidence,
Speaker 2: you know when you said convince ourselves or something like that.
Speaker 2: Of course, we want to get to the point where
Speaker 2: we're not trying to convince ourselves. It's either I believe
Speaker 2: I can do it or I can't. And some of
Speaker 2: that has been with past results. Have you hit the
Speaker 2: shot successfully in the past before the answer is yes, okay,
Speaker 2: at least I can maybe go back into my memories like, yeah,
Speaker 2: this is a five arm, I've hit plenty of really
Speaker 2: good fibers. Went oh last week I had that, And
Speaker 2: we can now change the memory. Because most people are
Speaker 2: geared to what they don't want because oh crap, I've
Speaker 2: done this bad on this whole before, we're trying to
Speaker 2: replace a memory with what we've done in the past.
Speaker 2: I think preparation and practice that can build confidence, you know,
Speaker 2: having practice rounds, getting a game plan. All the best
Speaker 2: players in the world do that the moment. A lot
Speaker 2: of the research is self talk. What am I saying
Speaker 2: to myself three seconds before I hit the shot? That
Speaker 2: thought will trigger an emotional response in us. I don't
Speaker 2: like this shot. I'm in between clubs. I never do
Speaker 2: well with this right And to the outsider, it's like, well,
Speaker 2: now the ball's in the fairway, it's one hundred and
Speaker 2: thirty five yards. What's their problem? But they're interpreting it
Speaker 2: as I don't like hitting three quarter shots. If I
Speaker 2: forced this, you don't know what the mental warfare is
Speaker 2: going on upstairs. But if the self talk is like, yeah,
Speaker 2: I know how to hit a three quarter nine iron,
Speaker 2: I go here to hear I've done it before, Let's
Speaker 2: do it again. That self talk now can can change
Speaker 2: us and it can change our emotions. So visualizing success right,
Speaker 2: seeing success before it happens is a way a precursor
Speaker 2: for confidence. Right in recovery shots, It's not something we've practiced,
Speaker 2: but we hit these unbelievable trouble shots because we see
Speaker 2: it so clearly underneath the tree in here, right, It's like,
Speaker 2: where'd that come from? Clarity? It came from clarity of
Speaker 2: what you wanted to do, and then you allowed yourself
Speaker 2: to do it. So confident, I think has many it
Speaker 2: has a foundation. But in that moment, in those twenty
Speaker 2: seconds before you hit a shot, what am I thinking?
Speaker 2: What am I saying to myself? What am I seeing?
Speaker 2: Will set the table for our commitment to the shot.
Speaker 1: When you mentioned replace a memory, I frequently will when
Speaker 1: I walk up to a tea box and I'm playing
Speaker 1: with someone who goes, oh I hate this hole. It
Speaker 1: beats me up every time. I always you know that
Speaker 1: golf history has nothing to do with your next shot.
Speaker 1: Do you realize that? I mean like, you're talking yourself
Speaker 1: into a real problem here. Don't do that? How well?
Speaker 2: I think is what we're doing is we're trying to
Speaker 2: superimpose what is the shot required? So let me give
Speaker 2: you an example. If I like to fade the ball
Speaker 2: and I come up to a hole that is a
Speaker 2: dog leg left. At first, it's like that doesn't match
Speaker 2: my eyes fair enough, right, I prefer to hit a fade,
Speaker 2: but it's a draw biased type shot. Well, I still
Speaker 2: have options. Do I have to hit a draw? Maybe not?
Speaker 2: Maybe I hit a three wood to the corner of
Speaker 2: the dog leg, so don't have to do anything. Or
Speaker 2: I could say, what is the shot required? Actually, it's
Speaker 2: just requiring me to hit a driver that I hit
Speaker 2: all the time. I am a little more left even
Speaker 2: I know that's not correct for a dog leg left,
Speaker 2: and I play my natural pattern. I could do that too,
Speaker 2: And then would be have I ever hit a draw before?
Speaker 2: And I said, well, yeah, I'm not as comfortable though,
Speaker 2: but I would remember a time that I've done that.
Speaker 2: Have I done it on the range before? Yes? I
Speaker 2: can now superimpose that memory onto the present shot as
Speaker 2: much as I can. It's the same thing like Augusta. Right,
Speaker 2: we were fortunate to be at the Master's and there's
Speaker 2: number ten requires a draw off the tee. Colin Morrikawa
Speaker 2: prefers to hit a fade, so part of preparation was
Speaker 2: him hitting a lot of three woods with the draw.
Speaker 2: He get that fair way four out of four times. Awesome. Okay,
Speaker 2: Now it's not a preference, but we prepared for it
Speaker 2: in advance. Thus we have a strategy for it.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: But I think it's also that people are thinking they're
Speaker 2: forcing something. Oh I don't like back right whole locations
Speaker 2: came at the middle of the green. It's not saying
Speaker 2: you have to do anything, but you're right. I think
Speaker 2: we get and I know this will sound like a
Speaker 2: weird word, but trauma because it does trigger something that
Speaker 2: we've done poorly at before. So it reminds us, Oh,
Speaker 2: I don't like holes like this because I did blank
Speaker 2: on this type of hole yesterday and so intead of
Speaker 2: flipping it go. Yeah, that might have been just a
Speaker 2: poort offswing, had nothing to do with the shot itself.
Speaker 2: But how do I now shift gears of what is
Speaker 2: the shot required? Have I done it before? If not,
Speaker 2: I can do a different shot. I can lay up
Speaker 2: I could. I think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too. Much.
Speaker 2: But I would also say it's required. H a smooth
Speaker 2: little three wood, it's all. It's required. I've done that before,
Speaker 2: I can do it again. But replacing that initial threat
Speaker 2: with what we've done before in a positive way is
Speaker 2: what I like to do.
Speaker 1: You just brought up Colin. You did, I didn't, But
Speaker 1: now that you did, y Well. When we first spoke,
Speaker 1: you were working with Colin, and the next time you weren't,
Speaker 1: and now you are again. That's all we need to
Speaker 1: talk about as far as that's concerned. But here you
Speaker 1: are coaching you know somebody who he was one of
Speaker 1: my picks before the Masters started this year, and he
Speaker 1: is always one of my picks because I just love
Speaker 1: watching this kid play. And he won in San Francisco
Speaker 1: and it is you know, it's major during COVID. But
Speaker 1: you've been with him since he was a child, right.
Speaker 2: Eight years old? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Can you share with us some of your greater
Speaker 1: challenges as a coach with someone since from being an
Speaker 1: eight year old to being a high level professional.
Speaker 2: Sure? So, first off, I'm extremely fortunate to have that opportunity,
Speaker 2: right so, meeting him as an eight year old and
Speaker 2: being with him for twenty years we had a small
Speaker 2: little break. But what happens at every level is we
Speaker 2: achieve goals, we raise the level again and again, and
Speaker 2: sometimes expectations can get in the way of performance. Is
Speaker 2: we think we should always fill in the blank, always
Speaker 2: break eighty for maybe some of your listeners, maybe win
Speaker 2: a major once a year. I mean, they're all different expectations,
Speaker 2: and when we don't meet those, there's frustration that incurs. Okay,
Speaker 2: So I think the most challenging things working with really
Speaker 2: good players is expectation management. And then if we don't
Speaker 2: meet those expectations, how do we deal with frustration? How
Speaker 2: do we deal? And I think Colin and I worked
Speaker 2: very well together along with his team as caddie, as
Speaker 2: putting coach and manager and everything is that we're always
Speaker 2: trying to get the old aditor, trying to get a
Speaker 2: little better every week. It doesn't always mean that there's
Speaker 2: going to be a win at the end of the week.
Speaker 2: He would like to It doesn't always mean it's going
Speaker 2: to happen, right, And the best example would be in
Speaker 2: Maui this year at Kapalua. Right we're at the Century
Speaker 2: event and we've done a lot of prep. He had
Speaker 2: a true offseason, he felt ready, felt refreshed, ready to go.
Speaker 2: And I may get this incorrect, but I think he
Speaker 2: shot thirty one under par for the four rounds. Okay,
Speaker 2: it's the fourth lowest score in PGA Tour history. But
Speaker 2: he lost to Hideki Matsayama, who had the lowest score
Speaker 2: in PGA Tour history. So what do we take away
Speaker 2: from that week? We lost? Or did we play really well?
Speaker 2: I mean, and that's the torn part is that we
Speaker 2: are assess based on wins, and I get that wholeheartedly.
Speaker 2: Yet are we getting better or not? And I think
Speaker 2: that's the fine line that this game it's tough, and
Speaker 2: then even when you're playing really well, it's tough to win.
Speaker 2: And then if you win, then people are expecting you
Speaker 2: to do it more often. It becomes a vicious circle. So,
Speaker 2: you know, I'm proud that you know, Colin works real hard,
Speaker 2: he's moving forward, he's had it. You know, this is
Speaker 2: where we're taping it. Here is still first quarter of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty five, and he's had a good, solid start
Speaker 2: of his year and very optimistic that it's going to continue.
Speaker 2: So that's the biggest thing is expectation management.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. You know, you talk about he shoots thirty
Speaker 1: one under and gets beat And one thing that you know,
Speaker 1: recreational golfers have to realize, these guys are not going, oh,
Speaker 1: you got to give me three strokes, right. They don't
Speaker 1: play with an index on the tour, right, these guys
Speaker 1: are like, we all count every single shot and we'll
Speaker 1: see what happens at the end. There's no strokes given here,
Speaker 1: but expectation management on that level where we again, as
Speaker 1: amateur recreational golfers, even if we're club you know, playing
Speaker 1: for club championships, we're not as good in expectation management.
Speaker 1: I'm sure you've worked with a lot of people who
Speaker 1: you have to like tamp that down.
Speaker 2: Yes, And yet I think it's the nature of just
Speaker 2: golf in and of itself, right, Okay, a lot of
Speaker 2: our play, a lot of the listeners here have broken
Speaker 2: a hundred. Well, then they expect to break a hundred
Speaker 2: all the time, and then ninety, and it just keeps
Speaker 2: ratcheting it up. So once you've done it a few times,
Speaker 2: you have a new expectation. Totally get it. That makes sense.
Speaker 2: The problem is is that there's so many variables in
Speaker 2: performance with golf is that if we just looked at
Speaker 2: the score alone and say, oh my gosh, I shot
Speaker 2: eighty one. I didn't break eighty how to and you
Speaker 2: forgot you made a quad on one hole where you
Speaker 2: got a bad bounce off of this that you know,
Speaker 2: It's like, we have to put it in perspective a
Speaker 2: little bit. But it's interesting. I don't work with as
Speaker 2: many amateurs as I used to, but giving a golf
Speaker 2: school weeks ago, and we had a player who had
Speaker 2: never broken ninety before, okay, and he hit a shot
Speaker 2: and hit a drive about one hundred and eighty yards
Speaker 2: down the middle, and we're going, oh my gosh, and
Speaker 2: he goes, Rick, I just want to do that every time. Now,
Speaker 2: for everybody out there, one hundred and eighty yards is
Speaker 2: not a huge shot. I get that, and he hit that.
Speaker 2: But here's somebody who struggles with keeping it in the
Speaker 2: same zip code. But now once he hits a good shot,
Speaker 2: he says, oh, I just want that every time. He's like,
Speaker 2: come on, how about we shoot for four out of
Speaker 2: ten right now? Right? It's just what we get the
Speaker 2: taste of success in this game, and it just brings
Speaker 2: us in. It's like, well, Rick, I just did it.
Speaker 2: I should do that every time I go. We're not robots.
Speaker 2: We're not. And so that's where I don't care what
Speaker 2: level we have, this disassociated of what should happen, right,
Speaker 2: which is an expectation. I should do that more often.
Speaker 2: I should I get that, but holy smokes, it is
Speaker 2: making the game very frustrating because we were probably not
Speaker 2: going to meet those expectations. So now how do you
Speaker 2: deal with that? And then we have all that other stuff.
Speaker 2: But I actually try to use stats for diameters too.
Speaker 2: It's like, let's say the old adage of what's a
Speaker 2: PGA tour make rate from roughly eight feet? It's right,
Speaker 2: roughly right. So this person's getting mad because they didn't
Speaker 2: make an eight footer. I'm like, well, the best players
Speaker 2: in the world, it's flip a coin, okay, and yet
Speaker 2: you think you should do it three out of four times.
Speaker 2: It's like wait time out here, okay. So I think
Speaker 2: stats is what's been been very useful for expectation management
Speaker 2: on a shot by shot basis. But I think again,
Speaker 2: once we taste some success, we think, well, I've got it.
Speaker 2: I said, well, I don't know if you've got it.
Speaker 2: You tapped into it. Now can we get it more often?
Speaker 1: Taste it?
Speaker 2: You've tasted it, right, So I think it's a challenge
Speaker 2: for all of us golfers.
Speaker 1: No question about it. But when you say we're not robots,
Speaker 1: let's remember that there's a golf ball in between all
Speaker 1: of this. And even the robots don't hit the exact
Speaker 1: same shot every single time. It's not like you're looking
Speaker 1: at a dispersion rate of a robot, you know, would
Speaker 1: iron byron. You're not going to see the ball landing
Speaker 1: within a yard of each other every single time. Correct.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got wind direction, we've got how the
Speaker 2: you know, we've got water on the face of the
Speaker 2: club and then the ball. I mean, yes, we can
Speaker 2: do it as close position conditions as possible to minimize variables.
Speaker 2: But golf is in a randomized environment with all kinds
Speaker 2: of variables. So I think it's people are very unfair
Speaker 2: to themselves. Again, thinking they can do the same thing
Speaker 2: over and over and over again when they can't control
Speaker 2: all those variables.
Speaker 1: Is the lesson of the story.
Speaker 2: Stop thinking, it's when to think and what are you
Speaker 2: thinking about? Right?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: If I am with doing a playing lesson and we
Speaker 2: walk up to a second shot on a par four,
Speaker 2: I hope somebody's thinking about the lie and the wind
Speaker 2: and the yardage and how firm the green is and
Speaker 2: where the whole location is, and I hope they're thinking
Speaker 2: about those things to make a proper decision. Once we
Speaker 2: make a decision, which is still analytical and still kind
Speaker 2: of going, Okay, I'm going to hit a nine iron
Speaker 2: and I'm going to aim at fifteen feet left of
Speaker 2: the hall, I'm still thinking I'm creating an intention. Once
Speaker 2: I get over the shot is when we start to
Speaker 2: wine down that thinking pattern, and we would want the
Speaker 2: thinking to go to more of a creative side of
Speaker 2: either a visualization or a feel, and back to I
Speaker 2: want to be athletic, is what people say. Right, Well,
Speaker 2: I've now turned down the thoughts and my thought maybe
Speaker 2: just target. It may be just the feel of hitting
Speaker 2: a cut. It may be so I've minimized the thinking. Okay,
Speaker 2: I think it's very difficult to tell people not to think,
Speaker 2: but I think we've funneled it down to a lot
Speaker 2: of thoughts, down to very few by the time we're
Speaker 2: executing the shot.
Speaker 1: Earlier in the conversation, you said, is tech being overused?
Speaker 1: We can talk about that later. It's time. Is tech
Speaker 1: being overused?
Speaker 2: Short answer is yes, because and you know, golfers there's
Speaker 2: the most passionate sportsmen will call it because they get
Speaker 2: hooked into all the equipment.
Speaker 1: They love it.
Speaker 2: They're watching their players on TV. They go play the
Speaker 2: same course as their players play. They're really connected to
Speaker 2: the sport. Right. We golf nuts, right, That's why we
Speaker 2: call them golf nuts, right. And I think part of
Speaker 2: that is that they've got wrapped into what's happening in
Speaker 2: our coaching industry is that because we can measure it,
Speaker 2: it's useful. So let's measure our the force plates and
Speaker 2: where our ground forces, and let's measure that, did your
Speaker 2: spin rate go to twenty five hundred or twenty seven
Speaker 2: hundred with your driver? And it's all really cool. It is. Okay, Yet,
Speaker 2: how useful is the information to that fifteen handicap? And
Speaker 2: I would argue it's very little for them to hit
Speaker 2: a golf shot. The coach needs to do a better
Speaker 2: job of filtering the information. So they don't show them
Speaker 2: all the information. They just say, hey, now that we
Speaker 2: got kind of your fingerprint of your swing, this is
Speaker 2: what we're going to work on. And we get the
Speaker 2: player to be very specific on one thing at a time,
Speaker 2: then we're fine. But we have a lot of people
Speaker 2: who are downloading the apps on their own phone. They
Speaker 2: have simulators in their basements now, and they're seeing all
Speaker 2: this stuff. They don't know what they're looking at, you know,
Speaker 2: And then it's the analysis paralysis idea. So the technology's cool,
Speaker 2: they overthink it. They see something on Instagram. I got
Speaker 2: to do this, and they're down so many rabbit holes
Speaker 2: and it's hard for them to come out.
Speaker 1: Again. You brought it up. I had my notes to
Speaker 1: bring it up, but you brought it up. Simulators. I
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people playing on simulator golf now
Speaker 1: and I think it got a huge booth this year
Speaker 1: with TGL yes and dealing with and watching Colin have
Speaker 1: a blast with that. And one of my favorite parts
Speaker 1: of TGL was listening to these guys not only give
Speaker 1: each other a hard time and play with each other,
Speaker 1: but the strategy involved. Right of simulator golf, But where's
Speaker 1: the mental game and simulator golf?
Speaker 2: Great question, I still think because performance matters, and because
Speaker 2: that the result is ultimately they want to hit a close,
Speaker 2: they want to make a birdie, they want to win.
Speaker 2: The whole performance is always at the core. So now
Speaker 2: what are they focusing on, what are they thinking about,
Speaker 2: what are they feeling emotionally? I know talking to Colin,
Speaker 2: he really enjoyed the TGL experience, especially in see with
Speaker 2: that stadium right and does your heart pump a little
Speaker 2: different than even the first team maybe and.
Speaker 1: Celebrat and you get the shot clock ticking off on
Speaker 1: your start pounding got way.
Speaker 2: I'm not used to seeing a clock right in front
Speaker 2: of me and I have to And now you see
Speaker 2: them change how they're feel So I think it's the
Speaker 2: mental game of that is still the same, maybe different.
Speaker 2: Like you said, the shot clocks in their face, they're
Speaker 2: working in a team environment, They're working on environments like
Speaker 2: an artificial green, like I'm not totally comfortable with this
Speaker 2: because this is different than what I play on and
Speaker 2: then hitting into a screen depth perception. I mean, there's
Speaker 2: things that they're trying to process that is very mental.
Speaker 2: And I think simulators are here to stay, and I
Speaker 2: think it's a good thing. I've coached on simulators. I
Speaker 2: think the technology is getting better and better where I
Speaker 2: can actually change environments. I can put different wind patterns on.
Speaker 2: I can put people in stressful situation in a simulator
Speaker 2: and help with those interventions, help them hit shots that
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, you're going to take this out when
Speaker 2: you go play that dog leg left, Let's do it
Speaker 2: on the simulator first. So I think it's really cool
Speaker 2: that it's growing. It's having people have a golf club
Speaker 2: in their hand even more different situations, which to me
Speaker 2: is the old adage growing the game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what do you want to see out of
Speaker 1: tg L? Do you want to I mean it seemed
Speaker 1: to be a successful first season. It was a lot
Speaker 1: of fun for the viewers. It seemed like it was
Speaker 1: a ton of fun for the players. I think there
Speaker 1: are you a future?
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a huge future and I know
Speaker 2: nothing inside information. I think, of course they're looking to
Speaker 2: grow and I think, you know, do you bring an
Speaker 2: LPGA team on? Do you do you put in celebrities?
Speaker 2: Do you put I don't know if they'll go down that.
Speaker 1: Co ed co ed team totally right, right.
Speaker 2: So we're trying to get more eyeballs on golf for
Speaker 2: trying to get the younger generation. So now, how do
Speaker 2: you bring do you bring influencers in? I don't know that.
Speaker 2: The actual competition I think is pretty solid. I think
Speaker 2: even in the in the season with the hammer and
Speaker 2: stuff like that, they made adjustments, so I think there'll
Speaker 2: be some adjustments there. It'll be interesting what kind of
Speaker 2: simulator courses they'll use. Do you use now of course
Speaker 2: that people are familiar with, or do you make it
Speaker 2: just computer based or do you put them on pebble
Speaker 2: b shue. I don't know. So I think there's there's
Speaker 2: some cool stuff. I like the entertainment value, I like
Speaker 2: them getting outside of their shell and the personality coming out.
Speaker 2: I think they'll feel more comfortable with that moving forward.
Speaker 2: But again it's more eyeballs on golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had Aggie pis On, who is one of
Speaker 1: the three architects who designed courses for TGL, which was,
Speaker 1: you know, fascinating because one of the great elements of
Speaker 1: golf is that like we get to play the course
Speaker 1: that they get to play. Not really, but you know,
Speaker 1: there's a couple of courses we get to play that
Speaker 1: they get to play. But here is something that's a
Speaker 1: complete challenge to these guys, only to the hand picked
Speaker 1: few who are the best in the world. They get,
Speaker 1: you know, get to play these unique holes. I loved
Speaker 1: that element of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's a novelty to it. I
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, I've never seen something like that before.
Speaker 2: And then how are they going to deal with it?
Speaker 2: And I think it is pretty cool. Maybe they throw
Speaker 2: in one hole that everybody knows about, right, and I
Speaker 2: think the familiarity, like we see with Augusta, is that
Speaker 2: everybody knows what to expect from the Masters. It's the
Speaker 2: same course, the same environment, you have those memories and
Speaker 2: stuff like that. I think there's something to be said
Speaker 2: on that. Yet, if we're talking technology, we're creating new
Speaker 2: golf courses and the creativity part of that I think
Speaker 2: is really cool too.
Speaker 1: One of the elements that I did truly love about
Speaker 1: it was like, Tiger cannot walk seventy two holes anymore.
Speaker 1: It's pretty obvious that he'll never be able to. Even
Speaker 1: if he does, he's not going to be that competitive.
Speaker 1: You know. They've left him behind on that and it's
Speaker 1: exhausting for him physically and emotionally and mentally. But with
Speaker 1: tgl oh, the seniors can really play the game now, right,
Speaker 1: if they can get used to the idea of hitting
Speaker 1: into a screen thirty five yards away. I think bringing
Speaker 1: seniors in, I'd love to I'd love to see call
Speaker 1: and play against you. I'd like to see these guys,
Speaker 1: a team of players and their coaches playing against each other.
Speaker 2: I got to talk to my agent on that one,
Speaker 2: and I think that's the fun part is like you
Speaker 2: and I play golf, and a lot of why we
Speaker 2: play golf is the camaraderie. Our friends are the trash
Speaker 2: talking with dad, and I think if you bring that
Speaker 2: to this and yes, you're bringing a coach, a caddie,
Speaker 2: a whatever, you know that it's kind of like what
Speaker 2: you would be doing on your Saturday morning, you know,
Speaker 2: and you're throwing down ex show. I'm going to press
Speaker 2: you on this and all that kind of stuff. That
Speaker 2: kind of terminology people get and they want to see
Speaker 2: the best players being able to do that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I cannot let you go without giving
Speaker 1: us an update on what's going on with flow code.
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Yes.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: Flow code theflow code dot com a company that I
Speaker 2: started about six years ago, and it's basically tools, frameworks,
Speaker 2: and strategies to help somebody go from a fear state
Speaker 2: to a flow state. We have online, we have an app.
Speaker 2: We work with a lot of golf academies and golf
Speaker 2: coaches to be their official mental game partner. We have
Speaker 2: a junior academy. We do a lot of live events.
Speaker 2: I was fortunate to go to China and Thailand and
Speaker 2: Denmark and Slovenia last year, and we got some more
Speaker 2: world travel going on this year. So it's really cool
Speaker 2: to get the mental game out there for all those players.
Speaker 1: Is flow Code gonna end up with a simulator? Are
Speaker 1: we going to be on the golf course?
Speaker 2: We'll see, We'll see. There's some stuff we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Well, again, I want to thank you because you were
Speaker 1: a big part of what I wanted the celebration of
Speaker 1: a thousand episodes to be of Golf Smarter because you've
Speaker 1: been How do I explain how I feel about what
Speaker 1: you've taught us in the times that you've been with us.
Speaker 1: It's been remarkable, and your passion for it and your
Speaker 1: understanding and your ability to articulate it has just made
Speaker 1: it so important to me to get you back. So
Speaker 1: thank you for coming back.
Speaker 2: Thank you Fred, and thanks for spreading the word on
Speaker 2: the Metal game