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<v Speaker 1>Hey.

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<v Speaker 2>My name is John O'Keefe and I live in Petaluma, California.

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<v Speaker 1>My favorite golf course is Rooster Rhyme. This is Golf Smarter,

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<v Speaker 1>episode one thousand and two.

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<v Speaker 2>We were fortunate to be at the Masters. Number ten

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<v Speaker 2>requires a draw off. The team Colin Morrikawa prefers to

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<v Speaker 2>hit a fake, so part of preparation was him hitting

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of three woods with the draw. He hit

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<v Speaker 2>that fairway four out of four times. Now, it's not

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<v Speaker 2>a preference, but we prepared for it in advance, thus

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<v Speaker 2>we have a strategy for it. I think it's also

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<v Speaker 2>that people are thinking they're forcing something. Oh I don't

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<v Speaker 2>like back right hoole locations him at the middle of

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<v Speaker 2>the green. It's not saying you have to do anything,

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<v Speaker 2>but you're right. I think we get trauma because it

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<v Speaker 2>does trigger something that we've done poorly before. So it

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<v Speaker 2>reminds us, Oh, I don't like holes like this because

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<v Speaker 2>I did blank on yesterday and so intend to flipping

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<v Speaker 2>it go. Yeah, that might have been just a poort

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<v Speaker 2>off swing, had nothing to do with the shot itself.

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<v Speaker 2>But how do I now shift gears of what is

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<v Speaker 2>the shot required? Have I done it before? If I

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<v Speaker 2>can do a different shot, I can lay up. I

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<v Speaker 2>think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too much. But

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<v Speaker 2>I would also say what's required, A smooth little three wood,

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<v Speaker 2>it's all that's required. I've done that before, I can

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<v Speaker 2>do it again. But replacing that initial threat with what

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<v Speaker 2>we've done before in a positive way is what I

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<v Speaker 2>like to do.

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<v Speaker 1>The difference between confidence over cockiness is subtle, but it's

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<v Speaker 1>effective in lowering scores with reccessing.

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<v Speaker 3>Hosts, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights

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<v Speaker 3>from great golf minds to help you lower your score

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<v Speaker 3>and raise your golf IQ.

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<v Speaker 1>Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf

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<v Speaker 1>Smarter podcast.

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<v Speaker 2>Rick, Hello, Fred, how are you?

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<v Speaker 1>I am fine? I'm excited. I love this celebration that

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<v Speaker 1>I've been doing on episode one thousand and everything around it,

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<v Speaker 1>and getting a short list of people that I've wanted

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<v Speaker 1>to have come back and just you know, air their

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<v Speaker 1>complete knowledge and just grind you as best as I can.

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<v Speaker 1>And you are high on the list because I just

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<v Speaker 1>love our conversation. So thank you for.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming back, Thank you for the invite.

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<v Speaker 1>Unbelievable. So you know, we we've had multiple conversations. We

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<v Speaker 1>talk about the flow code, we talk, we've and I've

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<v Speaker 1>talked to many people about the mental aspect, and that's

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<v Speaker 1>really the focus of this, uh this podcast. And it

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<v Speaker 1>seems as if over the last twenty years of this

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<v Speaker 1>podcast that the conversation about the mental game has only

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<v Speaker 1>strengthened and maybe even came out of nowhere from before

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<v Speaker 1>where it was all swing mechanics. And you are following that,

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<v Speaker 1>especially with the flow code at theflow code dot com.

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<v Speaker 1>Please check it out. What if you witness because you've

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<v Speaker 1>been coaching for more than those twenty years.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's the evolution like I talk about

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<v Speaker 2>with performance in goal specific I've been a member of

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<v Speaker 2>the I am a member of the PGA, been coaching

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<v Speaker 2>for over thirty years. I've seen a transition happening through coaching.

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<v Speaker 2>And again, at first it is about swing mechanics and

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<v Speaker 2>getting good fundamentals. We have to teach technique and skills,

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<v Speaker 2>of course we do. And I think when we look

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<v Speaker 2>at maybe what happened almost twenty years ago, we started

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<v Speaker 2>seeing physical Fitness TPI come on board a little bit more,

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<v Speaker 2>which was awesome. We started understanding the structure of your

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<v Speaker 2>body is going to govern your function what you can

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<v Speaker 2>and cannot do. Right. I'm a lot older now, I'm

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit tighter than I was playing college golf.

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<v Speaker 2>I can't do the same things I used to be

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<v Speaker 2>able to do with this swinging right. So there's a

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<v Speaker 2>physical component. I think we're getting more knowledge on that.

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<v Speaker 2>I think we've got club fitting has improved. We've got

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<v Speaker 2>even biomechanics, which is a fascinating the industry of force

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<v Speaker 2>plates and three D and vests and all these things

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<v Speaker 2>to understand how the body's working in real time is

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<v Speaker 2>all fantastic. And yet I think that puzzle piece, which

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<v Speaker 2>we have always believed has been important, but we are

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<v Speaker 2>finally talking about it, is the mental side of the game.

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<v Speaker 2>And we go back to you and I read tons

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<v Speaker 2>of books. You go back to Nicholas books and Harvey

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<v Speaker 2>Panic books. I mean there's some mental game stuff thrown

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<v Speaker 2>in there, a little bit if you really want to

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<v Speaker 2>dig in, right. Of course, management a little bit here

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<v Speaker 2>and there. So I've seen a huge upswing in mental

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<v Speaker 2>game coaching. Slash acceptance, I guess is the first word

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<v Speaker 2>of why are we talking about it more? Because I

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<v Speaker 2>think the players are talking about it more in their

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<v Speaker 2>post round interviews and when they win, it's like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>what was this week about? You don't hear Yes, I

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<v Speaker 2>got my great position of my takeaway. It's more like, hey,

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<v Speaker 2>I got my mindset right, I got my focus right.

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<v Speaker 2>I dealt with the pressure in this way. I did

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<v Speaker 2>some breathing, and because it's out there, more people were going, oh, Rory,

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<v Speaker 2>he's like me. I'm like him, Oh my gosh, we're

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<v Speaker 2>on the same I can't swing like him, but I

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<v Speaker 2>could go through some of the other mental stuff like him. Huh.

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's something I can address. And I think there's

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<v Speaker 2>some wonderful I mean, you have some of the best

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<v Speaker 2>mental game coaches and experts on so you know, that's

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<v Speaker 2>a growing field and us coaches, I believe we have

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<v Speaker 2>a lot to say and it's starting to be accepted

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<v Speaker 2>and applied finally.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, And I'm curious from your perspective as we

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<v Speaker 1>talk about that twenty years, there's also been a tremendous

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<v Speaker 1>amount of change in golf through technology, right, and a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of it of course being you know ball speed

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<v Speaker 1>and your launch angle and you know your dispersion all

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<v Speaker 1>that stuff. The technology is there a GPS. But how

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<v Speaker 1>has that impacted the mental aspect of what we do?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think part of it is the certainty, like

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<v Speaker 2>the measurables.

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<v Speaker 1>Right.

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<v Speaker 2>So you mentioned that when Backman or the first radar

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<v Speaker 2>systems came out, we had factual data of what a

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<v Speaker 2>ball did, and we also knew what the club and

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<v Speaker 2>club face was doing to make it produce this and

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<v Speaker 2>the attack angle, and so it wasn't guessing anymore, and

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<v Speaker 2>I think that was liberating for a lot of coaches,

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<v Speaker 2>like we're not guessing. Great when you have certainty of

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<v Speaker 2>when the club does this and the ball does this,

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<v Speaker 2>we can then reverse engineer the swing mechanics. That's a

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<v Speaker 2>great space to be. Okay, then you start seeing this

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<v Speaker 2>technology of the force plates and of the three D

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<v Speaker 2>and all this to get even more of those specific measurements,

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<v Speaker 2>and for some people in the industry that's been a

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<v Speaker 2>key thing of knowing what works and what doesn't. Now

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<v Speaker 2>I would we can go on a whole other discussion

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<v Speaker 2>on is the technology being overused and we're not coaching

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<v Speaker 2>enough that we can talk about here in a moment.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't want the technology to be the coach right now,

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<v Speaker 2>with the mental side, though, is I'm excited on two fronts.

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<v Speaker 2>Is technology is starting to be used in the mental

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<v Speaker 2>side of the game. If we want to measure the

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<v Speaker 2>mental game. Up to this point, it's been very challenging.

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<v Speaker 2>How do you measure the mental game. You take people's opinion, Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>did you focus on the course? And if they said yes,

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<v Speaker 2>then I guess that's our measurement. It was very subjective, right,

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<v Speaker 2>But now it's exciting. And I've experimented with some of

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<v Speaker 2>these technologies in the last fifteen years and they've accelerated.

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<v Speaker 2>Is you know, eg, brain brain wave sets. Right, we

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<v Speaker 2>can actually measure brain waves in real time while somebody's

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<v Speaker 2>hitting a golf ball. We have heart rate variability, and

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<v Speaker 2>we can measure not only the heart rate, but the

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<v Speaker 2>stress response somebody is having in real time. We have

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<v Speaker 2>more wearables on right, people are wearing I have this

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<v Speaker 2>aura ring that measures heart rate and sleep patterns, and

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<v Speaker 2>we have whoop. We have all these wearables now, so

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<v Speaker 2>we're starting to uncover a little bit more about what's

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<v Speaker 2>happening maybe deeper in somebody. Right, And it's going to

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<v Speaker 2>only accelerate with virtual reality and augmented reality. We're gonna

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<v Speaker 2>be able to put people in stressful environments, provide interventions

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<v Speaker 2>to help them understand how to deal with those stressful environments.

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<v Speaker 2>Just like if you're trying to make a let's say,

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<v Speaker 2>a four foot put to win the Masters in the

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<v Speaker 2>Career Grand Slam or something like that, right, I.

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<v Speaker 1>Wonder what it could be talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>So when we have these different environments, can we train

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<v Speaker 2>for those? And that's what I'm excited moving forward as

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<v Speaker 2>we go. So technology can be used for good or

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<v Speaker 2>for evil, depending on how much we want to mess

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<v Speaker 2>people's heads up and what are they focusing on. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think a lot of coaches are relying on it

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<v Speaker 2>to get more of the factual data of cause and effect.

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<v Speaker 2>I think the mental game is still a few years behind,

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<v Speaker 2>let's say the swing stuff, but it's getting there and

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<v Speaker 2>we're gonna have some pretty cool stuff here in the

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<v Speaker 2>next few years. Why behind because the wearable technologies still

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<v Speaker 2>need to work in real time better. So like there's

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of players on the PGA Tour that wear

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<v Speaker 2>the whoop band, right, it does measure heart rate variability,

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<v Speaker 2>but it can't do it by second by second, and

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<v Speaker 2>in real time is where we as much as we

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<v Speaker 2>would like it's close, it's getting there, but if it's

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<v Speaker 2>giving a vague thing of what happened in the last minute,

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<v Speaker 2>But we want to know what's happening when we make

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<v Speaker 2>the golf swing. That's why I say the wearable technology

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<v Speaker 2>is going to get better. I think we'll be able

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<v Speaker 2>to measure more things and more accurately. You know, right now,

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<v Speaker 2>we don't put a EEG headband on and somebody when

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<v Speaker 2>they're playing a PGA tournave. I think in the future

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<v Speaker 2>we're going to have some fun with that. So I

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<v Speaker 2>think there it's still a little bit the accuracy, how

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<v Speaker 2>quickly the data can be utilized, and how many markers

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<v Speaker 2>we can we can start to measure.

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<v Speaker 1>To the wearables, is that instant information and or is

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<v Speaker 1>it something that posts around You can go back and

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<v Speaker 1>look at like your arcos and looking at your.

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<v Speaker 2>Stats correct a lot. It's going to be post right son.

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<v Speaker 2>We can download like I have the AURA ring, I

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<v Speaker 2>can download what my activity was for the last few hours.

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<v Speaker 2>It will tell me activity score, stress response, all these

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<v Speaker 2>time of things. It'll give me a heart rate variability score.

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<v Speaker 2>But again it becomes a little too vague for when

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<v Speaker 2>we're talking about a shot by shot basis, So yes,

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<v Speaker 2>and I think it's gonna happen relatively quickly. We'll be

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<v Speaker 2>able to put a marker there that oh I hit

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<v Speaker 2>a drive on number one, I hit a putt on

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<v Speaker 2>number two, and put markers there in real time to

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<v Speaker 2>now look back and go, oh, why did that heart

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<v Speaker 2>rate variability change here? Or why did the EEG go

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<v Speaker 2>a little bit with faster brain waves beta instead of

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<v Speaker 2>lowering humh. Then it's easy to have that conversation about

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<v Speaker 2>the mental game. But yeah, how quickly the data can

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<v Speaker 2>be uploaded is one key thing. And then in real time,

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<v Speaker 2>Like again, if I'm playing in a tournament, I can't

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<v Speaker 2>utilize that technology to improve my golf game, right art goes, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>you can put your stats in and all that stuff,

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<v Speaker 2>but you look at it afterwards and look for patterns.

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<v Speaker 2>Right now, we can look for patterns, but it still

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<v Speaker 2>needs to improve a little bit on the second by second.

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<v Speaker 1>As a golf coach who works with some players at

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<v Speaker 1>the highest level on the on the PGA Tour, can

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<v Speaker 1>a wearable help you and will it get to the

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<v Speaker 1>point where it can help you While you're doing, say

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<v Speaker 1>a practice round with that player and you're there as

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<v Speaker 1>their coach. Can you get that data and say, oh

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<v Speaker 1>that the last shot, we could let's discuss what happened,

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<v Speaker 1>what was going on in your body? Is that doable now?

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's pretty close. My company Flow Coaching realize

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<v Speaker 2>with a company called Focus Calm, which is a brain wave.

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<v Speaker 1>He's bending over to pick something up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, picking it up, and so we can then pop

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<v Speaker 2>it on the forehead and measure brain wave activity in

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<v Speaker 2>real time and I can swing with it on. So

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<v Speaker 2>I could go out on the range and use it.

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<v Speaker 2>I could go for a practice round and use it,

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<v Speaker 2>and then it's downloaded to an app and we in

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<v Speaker 2>real time could see a certain score of how we

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<v Speaker 2>call active or stress somebody is, or how focused or

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<v Speaker 2>calm somebody is. We can do that. I think again,

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<v Speaker 2>you're going to get more acceptance of that in the

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<v Speaker 2>future when the technology just gets a little bit quicker

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<v Speaker 2>and easier to translate.

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<v Speaker 1>And that data is of value to a coach.

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<v Speaker 2>For me particularly, it is because I know the brainwave

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<v Speaker 2>activity is correlates with somebody who's able to get into

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<v Speaker 2>a flow state or not. Flow state is optimal experience.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm completely immersed in the present moment, I believe I

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<v Speaker 2>can take on this challenge in front of me, and

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<v Speaker 2>the brainwave activity is a lot less. It's a lot lower.

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<v Speaker 2>When somebody is in a highly stressed environment and they're

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<v Speaker 2>more in a fear state, it goes beta waves. They

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<v Speaker 2>get really really thinking a lot and that's harder now

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<v Speaker 2>to perform at our best. Right, we're at our best

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<v Speaker 2>when we're actually thinking less. So when we're now measuring

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<v Speaker 2>brainwave activity, we have some marker. Now we don't know

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<v Speaker 2>what they're thinking. Right, I can still be thinking happy thought,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm thinking way too many thoughts of the future.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh my god, I'm going to have this trophy of

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<v Speaker 2>my guess that's positive, but probably don't want to be

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about that when I'm trying to make a four

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<v Speaker 2>foot putt. So it's like, where are we focusing on.

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<v Speaker 2>We will want to have less brainwave activity happening during

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<v Speaker 2>the execution of a golf shot, and so we can

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<v Speaker 2>use brain waves to help us understand the state somebody's in,

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<v Speaker 2>like I said, along with heart read variability, and there's

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<v Speaker 2>other you know, not that we could ever do this

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<v Speaker 2>in real time, but blood markers we would want to know,

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<v Speaker 2>like hormone levels coming in cortisol, all these type of

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<v Speaker 2>things that could also, of course affect our state that

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<v Speaker 2>we're in.

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<v Speaker 1>As Again, as a coach who coaches at the highest level,

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<v Speaker 1>we know what the amateurs go through. We know what

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<v Speaker 1>recreational golfers go through when they step up to the ball.

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<v Speaker 1>The swing thoughts are overwhelming and disabling in many ways.

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<v Speaker 1>But pros who've really grooved their swing, I mean, their

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<v Speaker 1>pinpoint accuracy is remarkable to watch. Are they thinking swing

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<v Speaker 1>mechanics at all? Are they trying to stay mentally healthy

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<v Speaker 1>when they're stepping up to the ball. Where are they

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<v Speaker 1>from your experience.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's a loaded question. It's like week

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<v Speaker 2>week to week. Yeah, it could be a different answer,

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<v Speaker 2>oh for that player. So confidence has a big part

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<v Speaker 2>of how much I'm thinking. Right, So if I'm playing

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<v Speaker 2>well and I'm practicing well and I'm getting good results,

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<v Speaker 2>there's a higher likelihood that my brain wave activity is

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<v Speaker 2>going to be lower because I do trust what I have. Yet, again,

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<v Speaker 2>it doesn't matter the level of player. When Tuesday, the

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<v Speaker 2>ball's going a little sideway, Wednesday it's going a little sideways,

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<v Speaker 2>they may get into panic mode, like oh, crap. I've

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<v Speaker 2>got to figure out a way to find the fairway, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>And I think everybody's experienced that, so I think it

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<v Speaker 2>player to player. Yes, some players I think are able

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<v Speaker 2>to accept that they don't have their A game and

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<v Speaker 2>they can go out there a little more and go, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>let's just get it around the golf course. Let's try

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<v Speaker 2>to not to force anythings, while other, maybe inexperienced players

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<v Speaker 2>press the panic button because they don't have their A game.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think it's a little bit of a

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<v Speaker 2>gray area for players is when do they press a

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<v Speaker 2>panic button, which is now I have three swing thoughts,

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<v Speaker 2>or it's like, nope, here's my ballflight. I'm going to

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<v Speaker 2>play with what I got. Let's go round one. Then

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<v Speaker 2>after let's try to figure something out. But I think

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<v Speaker 2>that comes through experience also. But all humans are humans,

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<v Speaker 2>and we will tend to try to fix things with

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<v Speaker 2>thinking and logic and analytical stuff. And if we go

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<v Speaker 2>down that rabbit hole too much, it actually hinders the

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<v Speaker 2>performance even more.

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<v Speaker 1>Who has more of an impact on confidence And we're

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<v Speaker 1>going to talk a lot about confidence. We have to

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<v Speaker 1>coach or the caddy.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a great question. I'm gonna. I'm going to say

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<v Speaker 2>before they tee it up on the first hole, it

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<v Speaker 2>would be the coach and then of course, shot by shot,

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<v Speaker 2>the caddy now has a huge role. And I think

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<v Speaker 2>if you work together, that you're now saying the same

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<v Speaker 2>message and there's a consistency of message.

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<v Speaker 1>Together being the coach and the caddy.

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<v Speaker 2>Correct yes, that that we're using the same verbiage or

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<v Speaker 2>or how we're going to go through preshot routines in

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<v Speaker 2>a certain way, and it can be similar. But that

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<v Speaker 2>end goal of what is the player need to hear?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe need is too strong of a word, but how

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<v Speaker 2>do we put them in an optimal state with what

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<v Speaker 2>we say, the questions we ask, and even how we

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<v Speaker 2>react to how a player is going about it. But

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<v Speaker 2>I think part of the coaches is to help them

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<v Speaker 2>prepare for the event, and the caddies there is the

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<v Speaker 2>anchor on a shot by shot basis.

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<v Speaker 1>M h Okay, now let's get to confidence important, critical

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<v Speaker 1>or yeah it's okay, we talk about loaded questions.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's I look at because flow in the optical state,

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<v Speaker 2>it starts with focus, so flow follows focus. The only

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<v Speaker 2>way to get into a flow state is to be

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<v Speaker 2>in the present moment. So we always say it starts

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<v Speaker 2>with focus. Yet and next piece of this is somebody

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<v Speaker 2>needs to believe they have the skills to match the

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<v Speaker 2>challenge in front of them. So the belief system is confidence,

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<v Speaker 2>my belief in my ability that I can execute the

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<v Speaker 2>shot in front of me. Okay, now, we can certainly

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<v Speaker 2>talk about what could enhance confidence, what could I do

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<v Speaker 2>in the present moment, which we'll get into in a moment,

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<v Speaker 2>But confidence is a core of it. If I believe

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<v Speaker 2>I can do something, I'm in a much different attitude

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<v Speaker 2>than oh crap, I hate this whole oh my gosh,

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<v Speaker 2>and that's going to create a threat response, which is

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<v Speaker 2>to stress fight or flight. So yes, confidence has a

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<v Speaker 2>lot to do with how we perceive the shot in

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<v Speaker 2>front of us. Can I do it or not? I

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<v Speaker 2>think that's a big question to ask. And if the

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<v Speaker 2>answer is no, I can pick another shot certainly, or

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<v Speaker 2>I go, oh well, let's just try it anyways, and

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<v Speaker 2>then good luck with that. So confidence is a core

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<v Speaker 2>of the mental game. Our belief is very important.

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<v Speaker 1>How do we convince ourselves? Right? Well, let me finish

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<v Speaker 1>this question in the sense that I was once told

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<v Speaker 1>by a listener, and we've used this all the time.

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<v Speaker 1>Never follow a bad shot with a stupid shot. Yeah, right,

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<v Speaker 1>So how do we get to the point where we're

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<v Speaker 1>standing over the shot going just because I can see

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<v Speaker 1>the flag doesn't mean I can make the shot.

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<v Speaker 2>So now we're talking about either we're making a decision

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<v Speaker 2>based on emotion, like I'm mad or I'm frustrated because

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<v Speaker 2>of the last hole and I need to get it back.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a post shot routine emotional regulation question. The other

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<v Speaker 2>one is somebody who's just ultra aggressive risky. They're ego

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<v Speaker 2>gets in the way I'm going to go for that

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<v Speaker 2>whole location. Now it sounds like it's confidence, but it

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<v Speaker 2>is it cockiness to the point where that is not

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<v Speaker 2>playing the percentage of course, right, So I think that

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<v Speaker 2>that those are two different things, and I think confidence,

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<v Speaker 2>you know when you said convince ourselves or something like that.

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<v Speaker 2>Of course, we want to get to the point where

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<v Speaker 2>we're not trying to convince ourselves. It's either I believe

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<v Speaker 2>I can do it or I can't. And some of

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<v Speaker 2>that has been with past results. Have you hit the

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<v Speaker 2>shot successfully in the past before the answer is yes, okay,

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<v Speaker 2>at least I can maybe go back into my memories like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>this is a five arm, I've hit plenty of really

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<v Speaker 2>good fibers. Went oh last week I had that, And

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<v Speaker 2>we can now change the memory. Because most people are

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<v Speaker 2>geared to what they don't want because oh crap, I've

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<v Speaker 2>done this bad on this whole before, we're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>replace a memory with what we've done in the past.

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<v Speaker 2>I think preparation and practice that can build confidence, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>having practice rounds, getting a game plan. All the best

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<v Speaker 2>players in the world do that the moment. A lot

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<v Speaker 2>of the research is self talk. What am I saying

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<v Speaker 2>to myself three seconds before I hit the shot? That

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00:20:07.000 --> 00:20:10.759
<v Speaker 2>thought will trigger an emotional response in us. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>like this shot. I'm in between clubs. I never do

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<v Speaker 2>well with this right And to the outsider, it's like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>now the ball's in the fairway, it's one hundred and

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<v Speaker 2>thirty five yards. What's their problem? But they're interpreting it

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<v Speaker 2>as I don't like hitting three quarter shots. If I

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<v Speaker 2>forced this, you don't know what the mental warfare is

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<v Speaker 2>going on upstairs. But if the self talk is like, yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I know how to hit a three quarter nine iron,

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00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:32.839
<v Speaker 2>I go here to hear I've done it before, Let's

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<v Speaker 2>do it again. That self talk now can can change

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00:20:35.960 --> 00:20:39.279
<v Speaker 2>us and it can change our emotions. So visualizing success right,

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00:20:39.359 --> 00:20:42.400
<v Speaker 2>seeing success before it happens is a way a precursor

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<v Speaker 2>for confidence. Right in recovery shots, It's not something we've practiced,

396
00:20:46.079 --> 00:20:49.960
<v Speaker 2>but we hit these unbelievable trouble shots because we see

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00:20:49.960 --> 00:20:52.720
<v Speaker 2>it so clearly underneath the tree in here, right, It's like,

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00:20:53.200 --> 00:20:56.079
<v Speaker 2>where'd that come from? Clarity? It came from clarity of

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00:20:56.079 --> 00:20:59.119
<v Speaker 2>what you wanted to do, and then you allowed yourself

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<v Speaker 2>to do it. So confident, I think has many it

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00:21:01.799 --> 00:21:06.920
<v Speaker 2>has a foundation. But in that moment, in those twenty

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00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:09.920
<v Speaker 2>seconds before you hit a shot, what am I thinking?

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<v Speaker 2>What am I saying to myself? What am I seeing?

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00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:15.759
<v Speaker 2>Will set the table for our commitment to the shot.

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<v Speaker 1>When you mentioned replace a memory, I frequently will when

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<v Speaker 1>I walk up to a tea box and I'm playing

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<v Speaker 1>with someone who goes, oh I hate this hole. It

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00:21:32.359 --> 00:21:34.480
<v Speaker 1>beats me up every time. I always you know that

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<v Speaker 1>golf history has nothing to do with your next shot.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you realize that? I mean like, you're talking yourself

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<v Speaker 1>into a real problem here. Don't do that? How well?

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<v Speaker 2>I think is what we're doing is we're trying to

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<v Speaker 2>superimpose what is the shot required? So let me give

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<v Speaker 2>you an example. If I like to fade the ball

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00:21:54.799 --> 00:21:56.279
<v Speaker 2>and I come up to a hole that is a

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<v Speaker 2>dog leg left. At first, it's like that doesn't match

417
00:22:00.119 --> 00:22:03.839
<v Speaker 2>my eyes fair enough, right, I prefer to hit a fade,

418
00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:06.440
<v Speaker 2>but it's a draw biased type shot. Well, I still

419
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:08.680
<v Speaker 2>have options. Do I have to hit a draw? Maybe not?

420
00:22:08.720 --> 00:22:10.599
<v Speaker 2>Maybe I hit a three wood to the corner of

421
00:22:10.680 --> 00:22:14.640
<v Speaker 2>the dog leg, so don't have to do anything. Or

422
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:17.519
<v Speaker 2>I could say, what is the shot required? Actually, it's

423
00:22:17.599 --> 00:22:20.319
<v Speaker 2>just requiring me to hit a driver that I hit

424
00:22:20.359 --> 00:22:22.920
<v Speaker 2>all the time. I am a little more left even

425
00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:25.079
<v Speaker 2>I know that's not correct for a dog leg left,

426
00:22:25.200 --> 00:22:27.799
<v Speaker 2>and I play my natural pattern. I could do that too,

427
00:22:29.119 --> 00:22:32.599
<v Speaker 2>And then would be have I ever hit a draw before?

428
00:22:32.640 --> 00:22:34.559
<v Speaker 2>And I said, well, yeah, I'm not as comfortable though,

429
00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:37.599
<v Speaker 2>but I would remember a time that I've done that.

430
00:22:38.359 --> 00:22:40.119
<v Speaker 2>Have I done it on the range before? Yes? I

431
00:22:40.119 --> 00:22:46.319
<v Speaker 2>can now superimpose that memory onto the present shot as

432
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:49.000
<v Speaker 2>much as I can. It's the same thing like Augusta. Right,

433
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:52.559
<v Speaker 2>we were fortunate to be at the Master's and there's

434
00:22:53.079 --> 00:22:56.920
<v Speaker 2>number ten requires a draw off the tee. Colin Morrikawa

435
00:22:57.000 --> 00:22:59.920
<v Speaker 2>prefers to hit a fade, so part of preparation was

436
00:23:00.079 --> 00:23:01.960
<v Speaker 2>him hitting a lot of three woods with the draw.

437
00:23:02.519 --> 00:23:05.880
<v Speaker 2>He get that fair way four out of four times. Awesome. Okay,

438
00:23:06.359 --> 00:23:09.240
<v Speaker 2>Now it's not a preference, but we prepared for it

439
00:23:09.240 --> 00:23:12.759
<v Speaker 2>in advance. Thus we have a strategy for it.

440
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:13.279
<v Speaker 1>Okay.

441
00:23:13.920 --> 00:23:16.839
<v Speaker 2>But I think it's also that people are thinking they're

442
00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:19.440
<v Speaker 2>forcing something. Oh I don't like back right whole locations

443
00:23:20.079 --> 00:23:22.480
<v Speaker 2>came at the middle of the green. It's not saying

444
00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.079
<v Speaker 2>you have to do anything, but you're right. I think

445
00:23:26.079 --> 00:23:28.359
<v Speaker 2>we get and I know this will sound like a

446
00:23:28.359 --> 00:23:32.720
<v Speaker 2>weird word, but trauma because it does trigger something that

447
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:35.720
<v Speaker 2>we've done poorly at before. So it reminds us, Oh,

448
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:38.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't like holes like this because I did blank

449
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:41.119
<v Speaker 2>on this type of hole yesterday and so intead of

450
00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:42.640
<v Speaker 2>flipping it go. Yeah, that might have been just a

451
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:46.119
<v Speaker 2>poort offswing, had nothing to do with the shot itself.

452
00:23:46.480 --> 00:23:49.920
<v Speaker 2>But how do I now shift gears of what is

453
00:23:49.960 --> 00:23:52.440
<v Speaker 2>the shot required? Have I done it before? If not,

454
00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:54.440
<v Speaker 2>I can do a different shot. I can lay up

455
00:23:54.480 --> 00:23:58.160
<v Speaker 2>I could. I think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too. Much.

456
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.640
<v Speaker 2>But I would also say it's required. H a smooth

457
00:24:01.680 --> 00:24:04.480
<v Speaker 2>little three wood, it's all. It's required. I've done that before,

458
00:24:04.480 --> 00:24:09.200
<v Speaker 2>I can do it again. But replacing that initial threat

459
00:24:09.319 --> 00:24:12.000
<v Speaker 2>with what we've done before in a positive way is

460
00:24:12.039 --> 00:24:12.799
<v Speaker 2>what I like to do.

461
00:24:14.000 --> 00:24:16.720
<v Speaker 1>You just brought up Colin. You did, I didn't, But

462
00:24:16.799 --> 00:24:21.759
<v Speaker 1>now that you did, y Well. When we first spoke,

463
00:24:21.839 --> 00:24:24.839
<v Speaker 1>you were working with Colin, and the next time you weren't,

464
00:24:24.960 --> 00:24:28.079
<v Speaker 1>and now you are again. That's all we need to

465
00:24:28.119 --> 00:24:30.839
<v Speaker 1>talk about as far as that's concerned. But here you

466
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:34.599
<v Speaker 1>are coaching you know somebody who he was one of

467
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.480
<v Speaker 1>my picks before the Masters started this year, and he

468
00:24:37.640 --> 00:24:39.839
<v Speaker 1>is always one of my picks because I just love

469
00:24:39.920 --> 00:24:43.000
<v Speaker 1>watching this kid play. And he won in San Francisco

470
00:24:43.039 --> 00:24:45.759
<v Speaker 1>and it is you know, it's major during COVID. But

471
00:24:46.240 --> 00:24:49.200
<v Speaker 1>you've been with him since he was a child, right.

472
00:24:49.200 --> 00:24:50.200
<v Speaker 2>Eight years old? Yes?

473
00:24:50.440 --> 00:24:57.440
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, Can you share with us some of your greater

474
00:24:57.640 --> 00:25:02.079
<v Speaker 1>challenges as a coach with someone since from being an

475
00:25:02.119 --> 00:25:05.400
<v Speaker 1>eight year old to being a high level professional.

476
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:10.039
<v Speaker 2>Sure? So, first off, I'm extremely fortunate to have that opportunity,

477
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:12.640
<v Speaker 2>right so, meeting him as an eight year old and

478
00:25:12.640 --> 00:25:14.559
<v Speaker 2>being with him for twenty years we had a small

479
00:25:14.599 --> 00:25:21.480
<v Speaker 2>little break. But what happens at every level is we

480
00:25:21.519 --> 00:25:25.279
<v Speaker 2>achieve goals, we raise the level again and again, and

481
00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:29.519
<v Speaker 2>sometimes expectations can get in the way of performance. Is

482
00:25:29.599 --> 00:25:32.400
<v Speaker 2>we think we should always fill in the blank, always

483
00:25:32.400 --> 00:25:35.599
<v Speaker 2>break eighty for maybe some of your listeners, maybe win

484
00:25:35.640 --> 00:25:39.720
<v Speaker 2>a major once a year. I mean, they're all different expectations,

485
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:43.240
<v Speaker 2>and when we don't meet those, there's frustration that incurs. Okay,

486
00:25:43.519 --> 00:25:45.839
<v Speaker 2>So I think the most challenging things working with really

487
00:25:45.839 --> 00:25:49.519
<v Speaker 2>good players is expectation management. And then if we don't

488
00:25:49.559 --> 00:25:52.799
<v Speaker 2>meet those expectations, how do we deal with frustration? How

489
00:25:52.799 --> 00:25:55.720
<v Speaker 2>do we deal? And I think Colin and I worked

490
00:25:55.799 --> 00:25:57.880
<v Speaker 2>very well together along with his team as caddie, as

491
00:25:57.920 --> 00:26:02.039
<v Speaker 2>putting coach and manager and everything is that we're always

492
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:03.519
<v Speaker 2>trying to get the old aditor, trying to get a

493
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:06.559
<v Speaker 2>little better every week. It doesn't always mean that there's

494
00:26:06.599 --> 00:26:08.519
<v Speaker 2>going to be a win at the end of the week.

495
00:26:08.960 --> 00:26:11.319
<v Speaker 2>He would like to It doesn't always mean it's going

496
00:26:11.400 --> 00:26:15.759
<v Speaker 2>to happen, right, And the best example would be in

497
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.599
<v Speaker 2>Maui this year at Kapalua. Right we're at the Century

498
00:26:18.640 --> 00:26:21.160
<v Speaker 2>event and we've done a lot of prep. He had

499
00:26:21.359 --> 00:26:24.640
<v Speaker 2>a true offseason, he felt ready, felt refreshed, ready to go.

500
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:27.359
<v Speaker 2>And I may get this incorrect, but I think he

501
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:30.200
<v Speaker 2>shot thirty one under par for the four rounds. Okay,

502
00:26:30.359 --> 00:26:34.240
<v Speaker 2>it's the fourth lowest score in PGA Tour history. But

503
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:37.519
<v Speaker 2>he lost to Hideki Matsayama, who had the lowest score

504
00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:41.039
<v Speaker 2>in PGA Tour history. So what do we take away

505
00:26:41.079 --> 00:26:44.759
<v Speaker 2>from that week? We lost? Or did we play really well?

506
00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:46.880
<v Speaker 2>I mean, and that's the torn part is that we

507
00:26:47.000 --> 00:26:51.359
<v Speaker 2>are assess based on wins, and I get that wholeheartedly.

508
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.720
<v Speaker 2>Yet are we getting better or not? And I think

509
00:26:54.759 --> 00:26:59.480
<v Speaker 2>that's the fine line that this game it's tough, and

510
00:26:59.480 --> 00:27:01.519
<v Speaker 2>then even when you're playing really well, it's tough to win.

511
00:27:01.799 --> 00:27:03.559
<v Speaker 2>And then if you win, then people are expecting you

512
00:27:03.640 --> 00:27:06.519
<v Speaker 2>to do it more often. It becomes a vicious circle. So,

513
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:10.799
<v Speaker 2>you know, I'm proud that you know, Colin works real hard,

514
00:27:11.759 --> 00:27:14.319
<v Speaker 2>he's moving forward, he's had it. You know, this is

515
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:17.559
<v Speaker 2>where we're taping it. Here is still first quarter of

516
00:27:17.559 --> 00:27:20.400
<v Speaker 2>twenty twenty five, and he's had a good, solid start

517
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.720
<v Speaker 2>of his year and very optimistic that it's going to continue.

518
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:27.519
<v Speaker 2>So that's the biggest thing is expectation management.

519
00:27:28.319 --> 00:27:31.960
<v Speaker 1>That's fascinating. You know, you talk about he shoots thirty

520
00:27:32.000 --> 00:27:37.559
<v Speaker 1>one under and gets beat And one thing that you know,

521
00:27:37.680 --> 00:27:41.039
<v Speaker 1>recreational golfers have to realize, these guys are not going, oh,

522
00:27:41.119 --> 00:27:44.440
<v Speaker 1>you got to give me three strokes, right. They don't

523
00:27:44.440 --> 00:27:47.200
<v Speaker 1>play with an index on the tour, right, these guys

524
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:50.119
<v Speaker 1>are like, we all count every single shot and we'll

525
00:27:50.119 --> 00:27:52.799
<v Speaker 1>see what happens at the end. There's no strokes given here,

526
00:27:53.359 --> 00:27:59.519
<v Speaker 1>but expectation management on that level where we again, as

527
00:27:59.599 --> 00:28:03.240
<v Speaker 1>amateur recreational golfers, even if we're club you know, playing

528
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:08.759
<v Speaker 1>for club championships, we're not as good in expectation management.

529
00:28:08.839 --> 00:28:11.359
<v Speaker 1>I'm sure you've worked with a lot of people who

530
00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:13.279
<v Speaker 1>you have to like tamp that down.

531
00:28:14.880 --> 00:28:17.759
<v Speaker 2>Yes, And yet I think it's the nature of just

532
00:28:18.039 --> 00:28:20.920
<v Speaker 2>golf in and of itself, right, Okay, a lot of

533
00:28:20.960 --> 00:28:23.039
<v Speaker 2>our play, a lot of the listeners here have broken

534
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:25.200
<v Speaker 2>a hundred. Well, then they expect to break a hundred

535
00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.519
<v Speaker 2>all the time, and then ninety, and it just keeps

536
00:28:27.599 --> 00:28:30.039
<v Speaker 2>ratcheting it up. So once you've done it a few times,

537
00:28:30.359 --> 00:28:33.119
<v Speaker 2>you have a new expectation. Totally get it. That makes sense.

538
00:28:34.160 --> 00:28:36.359
<v Speaker 2>The problem is is that there's so many variables in

539
00:28:36.400 --> 00:28:39.200
<v Speaker 2>performance with golf is that if we just looked at

540
00:28:39.200 --> 00:28:41.599
<v Speaker 2>the score alone and say, oh my gosh, I shot

541
00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:43.880
<v Speaker 2>eighty one. I didn't break eighty how to and you

542
00:28:43.920 --> 00:28:46.720
<v Speaker 2>forgot you made a quad on one hole where you

543
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:48.799
<v Speaker 2>got a bad bounce off of this that you know,

544
00:28:49.039 --> 00:28:50.480
<v Speaker 2>It's like, we have to put it in perspective a

545
00:28:50.480 --> 00:28:55.000
<v Speaker 2>little bit. But it's interesting. I don't work with as

546
00:28:55.039 --> 00:28:59.599
<v Speaker 2>many amateurs as I used to, but giving a golf

547
00:28:59.640 --> 00:29:02.759
<v Speaker 2>school weeks ago, and we had a player who had

548
00:29:02.759 --> 00:29:07.640
<v Speaker 2>never broken ninety before, okay, and he hit a shot

549
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:10.440
<v Speaker 2>and hit a drive about one hundred and eighty yards

550
00:29:10.440 --> 00:29:12.440
<v Speaker 2>down the middle, and we're going, oh my gosh, and

551
00:29:12.440 --> 00:29:16.599
<v Speaker 2>he goes, Rick, I just want to do that every time. Now,

552
00:29:16.920 --> 00:29:18.720
<v Speaker 2>for everybody out there, one hundred and eighty yards is

553
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:20.559
<v Speaker 2>not a huge shot. I get that, and he hit that.

554
00:29:20.920 --> 00:29:23.640
<v Speaker 2>But here's somebody who struggles with keeping it in the

555
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:26.680
<v Speaker 2>same zip code. But now once he hits a good shot,

556
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.559
<v Speaker 2>he says, oh, I just want that every time. He's like,

557
00:29:28.599 --> 00:29:31.039
<v Speaker 2>come on, how about we shoot for four out of

558
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:33.960
<v Speaker 2>ten right now? Right? It's just what we get the

559
00:29:34.000 --> 00:29:37.400
<v Speaker 2>taste of success in this game, and it just brings

560
00:29:37.480 --> 00:29:39.079
<v Speaker 2>us in. It's like, well, Rick, I just did it.

561
00:29:39.079 --> 00:29:41.119
<v Speaker 2>I should do that every time I go. We're not robots.

562
00:29:41.640 --> 00:29:43.960
<v Speaker 2>We're not. And so that's where I don't care what

563
00:29:44.200 --> 00:29:49.279
<v Speaker 2>level we have, this disassociated of what should happen, right,

564
00:29:49.319 --> 00:29:52.079
<v Speaker 2>which is an expectation. I should do that more often.

565
00:29:52.160 --> 00:29:56.359
<v Speaker 2>I should I get that, but holy smokes, it is

566
00:29:56.680 --> 00:30:00.519
<v Speaker 2>making the game very frustrating because we were probably not

567
00:30:00.559 --> 00:30:02.880
<v Speaker 2>going to meet those expectations. So now how do you

568
00:30:02.920 --> 00:30:04.920
<v Speaker 2>deal with that? And then we have all that other stuff.

569
00:30:04.960 --> 00:30:08.279
<v Speaker 2>But I actually try to use stats for diameters too.

570
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:10.960
<v Speaker 2>It's like, let's say the old adage of what's a

571
00:30:10.960 --> 00:30:15.839
<v Speaker 2>PGA tour make rate from roughly eight feet? It's right,

572
00:30:16.000 --> 00:30:18.960
<v Speaker 2>roughly right. So this person's getting mad because they didn't

573
00:30:18.960 --> 00:30:21.440
<v Speaker 2>make an eight footer. I'm like, well, the best players

574
00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:24.359
<v Speaker 2>in the world, it's flip a coin, okay, and yet

575
00:30:24.400 --> 00:30:27.240
<v Speaker 2>you think you should do it three out of four times.

576
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:29.680
<v Speaker 2>It's like wait time out here, okay. So I think

577
00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:33.799
<v Speaker 2>stats is what's been been very useful for expectation management

578
00:30:33.799 --> 00:30:36.119
<v Speaker 2>on a shot by shot basis. But I think again,

579
00:30:36.200 --> 00:30:39.599
<v Speaker 2>once we taste some success, we think, well, I've got it.

580
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:41.920
<v Speaker 2>I said, well, I don't know if you've got it.

581
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:45.000
<v Speaker 2>You tapped into it. Now can we get it more often?

582
00:30:45.160 --> 00:30:45.920
<v Speaker 1>Taste it?

583
00:30:46.000 --> 00:30:48.559
<v Speaker 2>You've tasted it, right, So I think it's a challenge

584
00:30:48.559 --> 00:30:50.119
<v Speaker 2>for all of us golfers.

585
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:54.400
<v Speaker 1>No question about it. But when you say we're not robots,

586
00:30:55.079 --> 00:30:58.000
<v Speaker 1>let's remember that there's a golf ball in between all

587
00:30:58.039 --> 00:31:01.720
<v Speaker 1>of this. And even the robots don't hit the exact

588
00:31:01.799 --> 00:31:04.519
<v Speaker 1>same shot every single time. It's not like you're looking

589
00:31:04.559 --> 00:31:06.920
<v Speaker 1>at a dispersion rate of a robot, you know, would

590
00:31:07.079 --> 00:31:10.440
<v Speaker 1>iron byron. You're not going to see the ball landing

591
00:31:10.680 --> 00:31:14.480
<v Speaker 1>within a yard of each other every single time. Correct.

592
00:31:14.599 --> 00:31:16.920
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we've got wind direction, we've got how the

593
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:20.079
<v Speaker 2>you know, we've got water on the face of the

594
00:31:20.079 --> 00:31:22.519
<v Speaker 2>club and then the ball. I mean, yes, we can

595
00:31:22.599 --> 00:31:26.799
<v Speaker 2>do it as close position conditions as possible to minimize variables.

596
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:31.920
<v Speaker 2>But golf is in a randomized environment with all kinds

597
00:31:31.920 --> 00:31:34.599
<v Speaker 2>of variables. So I think it's people are very unfair

598
00:31:34.599 --> 00:31:38.079
<v Speaker 2>to themselves. Again, thinking they can do the same thing

599
00:31:38.279 --> 00:31:40.839
<v Speaker 2>over and over and over again when they can't control

600
00:31:40.880 --> 00:31:42.799
<v Speaker 2>all those variables.

601
00:31:48.480 --> 00:31:49.519
<v Speaker 1>Is the lesson of the story.

602
00:31:49.559 --> 00:31:53.880
<v Speaker 2>Stop thinking, it's when to think and what are you

603
00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:55.119
<v Speaker 2>thinking about? Right?

604
00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:55.839
<v Speaker 1>Okay?

605
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.160
<v Speaker 2>If I am with doing a playing lesson and we

606
00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:02.119
<v Speaker 2>walk up to a second shot on a par four,

607
00:32:03.160 --> 00:32:05.759
<v Speaker 2>I hope somebody's thinking about the lie and the wind

608
00:32:05.799 --> 00:32:07.880
<v Speaker 2>and the yardage and how firm the green is and

609
00:32:07.920 --> 00:32:10.200
<v Speaker 2>where the whole location is, and I hope they're thinking

610
00:32:10.240 --> 00:32:13.319
<v Speaker 2>about those things to make a proper decision. Once we

611
00:32:13.359 --> 00:32:16.359
<v Speaker 2>make a decision, which is still analytical and still kind

612
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:18.920
<v Speaker 2>of going, Okay, I'm going to hit a nine iron

613
00:32:18.960 --> 00:32:20.920
<v Speaker 2>and I'm going to aim at fifteen feet left of

614
00:32:20.920 --> 00:32:24.480
<v Speaker 2>the hall, I'm still thinking I'm creating an intention. Once

615
00:32:24.519 --> 00:32:26.480
<v Speaker 2>I get over the shot is when we start to

616
00:32:27.240 --> 00:32:30.799
<v Speaker 2>wine down that thinking pattern, and we would want the

617
00:32:30.839 --> 00:32:33.440
<v Speaker 2>thinking to go to more of a creative side of

618
00:32:33.480 --> 00:32:36.720
<v Speaker 2>either a visualization or a feel, and back to I

619
00:32:36.759 --> 00:32:39.559
<v Speaker 2>want to be athletic, is what people say. Right, Well,

620
00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:44.960
<v Speaker 2>I've now turned down the thoughts and my thought maybe

621
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:48.160
<v Speaker 2>just target. It may be just the feel of hitting

622
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:52.319
<v Speaker 2>a cut. It may be so I've minimized the thinking. Okay,

623
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.880
<v Speaker 2>I think it's very difficult to tell people not to think,

624
00:32:56.160 --> 00:32:58.160
<v Speaker 2>but I think we've funneled it down to a lot

625
00:32:58.200 --> 00:33:01.200
<v Speaker 2>of thoughts, down to very few by the time we're

626
00:33:01.200 --> 00:33:02.039
<v Speaker 2>executing the shot.

627
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:07.000
<v Speaker 1>Earlier in the conversation, you said, is tech being overused?

628
00:33:07.000 --> 00:33:11.759
<v Speaker 1>We can talk about that later. It's time. Is tech

629
00:33:11.839 --> 00:33:12.720
<v Speaker 1>being overused?

630
00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:18.160
<v Speaker 2>Short answer is yes, because and you know, golfers there's

631
00:33:18.240 --> 00:33:23.359
<v Speaker 2>the most passionate sportsmen will call it because they get

632
00:33:23.440 --> 00:33:24.720
<v Speaker 2>hooked into all the equipment.

633
00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:25.480
<v Speaker 1>They love it.

634
00:33:25.480 --> 00:33:27.880
<v Speaker 2>They're watching their players on TV. They go play the

635
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:30.400
<v Speaker 2>same course as their players play. They're really connected to

636
00:33:30.440 --> 00:33:32.720
<v Speaker 2>the sport. Right. We golf nuts, right, That's why we

637
00:33:32.759 --> 00:33:35.640
<v Speaker 2>call them golf nuts, right. And I think part of

638
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:39.079
<v Speaker 2>that is that they've got wrapped into what's happening in

639
00:33:39.119 --> 00:33:41.920
<v Speaker 2>our coaching industry is that because we can measure it,

640
00:33:41.920 --> 00:33:46.119
<v Speaker 2>it's useful. So let's measure our the force plates and

641
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:49.200
<v Speaker 2>where our ground forces, and let's measure that, did your

642
00:33:49.200 --> 00:33:51.319
<v Speaker 2>spin rate go to twenty five hundred or twenty seven

643
00:33:51.400 --> 00:33:56.279
<v Speaker 2>hundred with your driver? And it's all really cool. It is. Okay, Yet,

644
00:33:56.440 --> 00:34:00.880
<v Speaker 2>how useful is the information to that fifteen handicap? And

645
00:34:00.960 --> 00:34:04.480
<v Speaker 2>I would argue it's very little for them to hit

646
00:34:04.480 --> 00:34:07.160
<v Speaker 2>a golf shot. The coach needs to do a better

647
00:34:07.240 --> 00:34:10.679
<v Speaker 2>job of filtering the information. So they don't show them

648
00:34:10.679 --> 00:34:13.480
<v Speaker 2>all the information. They just say, hey, now that we

649
00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:16.440
<v Speaker 2>got kind of your fingerprint of your swing, this is

650
00:34:16.440 --> 00:34:18.079
<v Speaker 2>what we're going to work on. And we get the

651
00:34:18.119 --> 00:34:20.599
<v Speaker 2>player to be very specific on one thing at a time,

652
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:23.440
<v Speaker 2>then we're fine. But we have a lot of people

653
00:34:23.480 --> 00:34:26.320
<v Speaker 2>who are downloading the apps on their own phone. They

654
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:29.480
<v Speaker 2>have simulators in their basements now, and they're seeing all

655
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:32.760
<v Speaker 2>this stuff. They don't know what they're looking at, you know,

656
00:34:32.920 --> 00:34:37.519
<v Speaker 2>And then it's the analysis paralysis idea. So the technology's cool,

657
00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:41.000
<v Speaker 2>they overthink it. They see something on Instagram. I got

658
00:34:41.000 --> 00:34:44.199
<v Speaker 2>to do this, and they're down so many rabbit holes

659
00:34:44.360 --> 00:34:45.920
<v Speaker 2>and it's hard for them to come out.

660
00:34:47.360 --> 00:34:50.119
<v Speaker 1>Again. You brought it up. I had my notes to

661
00:34:50.159 --> 00:34:53.559
<v Speaker 1>bring it up, but you brought it up. Simulators. I

662
00:34:53.960 --> 00:34:57.320
<v Speaker 1>there's a lot of people playing on simulator golf now

663
00:34:57.920 --> 00:35:00.519
<v Speaker 1>and I think it got a huge booth this year

664
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:06.440
<v Speaker 1>with TGL yes and dealing with and watching Colin have

665
00:35:06.519 --> 00:35:09.320
<v Speaker 1>a blast with that. And one of my favorite parts

666
00:35:09.320 --> 00:35:12.199
<v Speaker 1>of TGL was listening to these guys not only give

667
00:35:12.239 --> 00:35:14.320
<v Speaker 1>each other a hard time and play with each other,

668
00:35:14.920 --> 00:35:23.360
<v Speaker 1>but the strategy involved. Right of simulator golf, But where's

669
00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:25.559
<v Speaker 1>the mental game and simulator golf?

670
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:31.199
<v Speaker 2>Great question, I still think because performance matters, and because

671
00:35:31.239 --> 00:35:34.119
<v Speaker 2>that the result is ultimately they want to hit a close,

672
00:35:34.159 --> 00:35:35.599
<v Speaker 2>they want to make a birdie, they want to win.

673
00:35:35.639 --> 00:35:38.880
<v Speaker 2>The whole performance is always at the core. So now

674
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:41.800
<v Speaker 2>what are they focusing on, what are they thinking about,

675
00:35:41.840 --> 00:35:45.400
<v Speaker 2>what are they feeling emotionally? I know talking to Colin,

676
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:49.159
<v Speaker 2>he really enjoyed the TGL experience, especially in see with

677
00:35:49.280 --> 00:35:52.400
<v Speaker 2>that stadium right and does your heart pump a little

678
00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:54.920
<v Speaker 2>different than even the first team maybe and.

679
00:35:54.880 --> 00:35:58.239
<v Speaker 1>Celebrat and you get the shot clock ticking off on

680
00:35:58.360 --> 00:36:00.519
<v Speaker 1>your start pounding got way.

681
00:36:00.559 --> 00:36:02.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm not used to seeing a clock right in front

682
00:36:02.320 --> 00:36:04.119
<v Speaker 2>of me and I have to And now you see

683
00:36:04.119 --> 00:36:06.199
<v Speaker 2>them change how they're feel So I think it's the

684
00:36:06.199 --> 00:36:10.239
<v Speaker 2>mental game of that is still the same, maybe different.

685
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:12.360
<v Speaker 2>Like you said, the shot clocks in their face, they're

686
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:15.199
<v Speaker 2>working in a team environment, They're working on environments like

687
00:36:15.239 --> 00:36:19.119
<v Speaker 2>an artificial green, like I'm not totally comfortable with this

688
00:36:19.519 --> 00:36:21.920
<v Speaker 2>because this is different than what I play on and

689
00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:24.960
<v Speaker 2>then hitting into a screen depth perception. I mean, there's

690
00:36:25.000 --> 00:36:28.440
<v Speaker 2>things that they're trying to process that is very mental.

691
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:31.239
<v Speaker 2>And I think simulators are here to stay, and I

692
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.400
<v Speaker 2>think it's a good thing. I've coached on simulators. I

693
00:36:35.440 --> 00:36:38.079
<v Speaker 2>think the technology is getting better and better where I

694
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:42.239
<v Speaker 2>can actually change environments. I can put different wind patterns on.

695
00:36:42.280 --> 00:36:45.000
<v Speaker 2>I can put people in stressful situation in a simulator

696
00:36:45.519 --> 00:36:48.000
<v Speaker 2>and help with those interventions, help them hit shots that

697
00:36:48.360 --> 00:36:49.840
<v Speaker 2>it's like, yeah, you're going to take this out when

698
00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:51.760
<v Speaker 2>you go play that dog leg left, Let's do it

699
00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:54.719
<v Speaker 2>on the simulator first. So I think it's really cool

700
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:58.559
<v Speaker 2>that it's growing. It's having people have a golf club

701
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:01.559
<v Speaker 2>in their hand even more different situations, which to me

702
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:03.800
<v Speaker 2>is the old adage growing the game.

703
00:37:04.280 --> 00:37:05.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and what do you want to see out of

704
00:37:05.840 --> 00:37:07.719
<v Speaker 1>tg L? Do you want to I mean it seemed

705
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:10.440
<v Speaker 1>to be a successful first season. It was a lot

706
00:37:10.480 --> 00:37:13.280
<v Speaker 1>of fun for the viewers. It seemed like it was

707
00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:16.440
<v Speaker 1>a ton of fun for the players. I think there

708
00:37:16.480 --> 00:37:17.239
<v Speaker 1>are you a future?

709
00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:20.199
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think there's a huge future and I know

710
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:24.000
<v Speaker 2>nothing inside information. I think, of course they're looking to

711
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:27.039
<v Speaker 2>grow and I think, you know, do you bring an

712
00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.679
<v Speaker 2>LPGA team on? Do you do you put in celebrities?

713
00:37:30.719 --> 00:37:32.079
<v Speaker 2>Do you put I don't know if they'll go down that.

714
00:37:32.280 --> 00:37:35.519
<v Speaker 1>Co ed co ed team totally right, right.

715
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:37.960
<v Speaker 2>So we're trying to get more eyeballs on golf for

716
00:37:38.039 --> 00:37:40.199
<v Speaker 2>trying to get the younger generation. So now, how do

717
00:37:40.239 --> 00:37:42.719
<v Speaker 2>you bring do you bring influencers in? I don't know that.

718
00:37:43.280 --> 00:37:47.239
<v Speaker 2>The actual competition I think is pretty solid. I think

719
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:49.960
<v Speaker 2>even in the in the season with the hammer and

720
00:37:49.960 --> 00:37:52.199
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that, they made adjustments, so I think there'll

721
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:54.880
<v Speaker 2>be some adjustments there. It'll be interesting what kind of

722
00:37:55.239 --> 00:37:58.440
<v Speaker 2>simulator courses they'll use. Do you use now of course

723
00:37:58.440 --> 00:38:00.119
<v Speaker 2>that people are familiar with, or do you make it

724
00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:03.280
<v Speaker 2>just computer based or do you put them on pebble

725
00:38:03.280 --> 00:38:05.840
<v Speaker 2>b shue. I don't know. So I think there's there's

726
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:08.280
<v Speaker 2>some cool stuff. I like the entertainment value, I like

727
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:11.679
<v Speaker 2>them getting outside of their shell and the personality coming out.

728
00:38:11.719 --> 00:38:14.480
<v Speaker 2>I think they'll feel more comfortable with that moving forward.

729
00:38:14.559 --> 00:38:16.880
<v Speaker 2>But again it's more eyeballs on golf.

730
00:38:17.400 --> 00:38:20.199
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, we had Aggie pis On, who is one of

731
00:38:20.239 --> 00:38:25.039
<v Speaker 1>the three architects who designed courses for TGL, which was,

732
00:38:26.519 --> 00:38:30.760
<v Speaker 1>you know, fascinating because one of the great elements of

733
00:38:30.880 --> 00:38:33.960
<v Speaker 1>golf is that like we get to play the course

734
00:38:34.400 --> 00:38:37.519
<v Speaker 1>that they get to play. Not really, but you know,

735
00:38:37.559 --> 00:38:41.000
<v Speaker 1>there's a couple of courses we get to play that

736
00:38:41.079 --> 00:38:43.400
<v Speaker 1>they get to play. But here is something that's a

737
00:38:43.480 --> 00:38:47.880
<v Speaker 1>complete challenge to these guys, only to the hand picked

738
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:52.119
<v Speaker 1>few who are the best in the world. They get,

739
00:38:52.320 --> 00:38:57.079
<v Speaker 1>you know, get to play these unique holes. I loved

740
00:38:57.119 --> 00:38:58.280
<v Speaker 1>that element of it.

741
00:38:58.599 --> 00:39:01.119
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's a novelty to it. I

742
00:39:01.199 --> 00:39:03.119
<v Speaker 2>was like, Wow, I've never seen something like that before.

743
00:39:03.159 --> 00:39:04.559
<v Speaker 2>And then how are they going to deal with it?

744
00:39:04.599 --> 00:39:08.400
<v Speaker 2>And I think it is pretty cool. Maybe they throw

745
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:11.760
<v Speaker 2>in one hole that everybody knows about, right, and I

746
00:39:11.800 --> 00:39:14.599
<v Speaker 2>think the familiarity, like we see with Augusta, is that

747
00:39:14.960 --> 00:39:17.320
<v Speaker 2>everybody knows what to expect from the Masters. It's the

748
00:39:17.360 --> 00:39:20.360
<v Speaker 2>same course, the same environment, you have those memories and

749
00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:22.599
<v Speaker 2>stuff like that. I think there's something to be said

750
00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.280
<v Speaker 2>on that. Yet, if we're talking technology, we're creating new

751
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:28.159
<v Speaker 2>golf courses and the creativity part of that I think

752
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:29.239
<v Speaker 2>is really cool too.

753
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:33.159
<v Speaker 1>One of the elements that I did truly love about

754
00:39:33.199 --> 00:39:37.440
<v Speaker 1>it was like, Tiger cannot walk seventy two holes anymore.

755
00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.880
<v Speaker 1>It's pretty obvious that he'll never be able to. Even

756
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:43.280
<v Speaker 1>if he does, he's not going to be that competitive.

757
00:39:44.280 --> 00:39:46.800
<v Speaker 1>You know. They've left him behind on that and it's

758
00:39:46.800 --> 00:39:51.599
<v Speaker 1>exhausting for him physically and emotionally and mentally. But with

759
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.960
<v Speaker 1>tgl oh, the seniors can really play the game now, right,

760
00:39:56.000 --> 00:39:57.760
<v Speaker 1>if they can get used to the idea of hitting

761
00:39:57.800 --> 00:40:01.159
<v Speaker 1>into a screen thirty five yards away. I think bringing

762
00:40:01.239 --> 00:40:03.880
<v Speaker 1>seniors in, I'd love to I'd love to see call

763
00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:06.559
<v Speaker 1>and play against you. I'd like to see these guys,

764
00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:10.079
<v Speaker 1>a team of players and their coaches playing against each other.

765
00:40:10.360 --> 00:40:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I got to talk to my agent on that one,

766
00:40:13.199 --> 00:40:15.039
<v Speaker 2>and I think that's the fun part is like you

767
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:17.119
<v Speaker 2>and I play golf, and a lot of why we

768
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:21.320
<v Speaker 2>play golf is the camaraderie. Our friends are the trash

769
00:40:21.360 --> 00:40:23.400
<v Speaker 2>talking with dad, and I think if you bring that

770
00:40:23.960 --> 00:40:26.599
<v Speaker 2>to this and yes, you're bringing a coach, a caddie,

771
00:40:26.599 --> 00:40:30.159
<v Speaker 2>a whatever, you know that it's kind of like what

772
00:40:30.159 --> 00:40:32.480
<v Speaker 2>you would be doing on your Saturday morning, you know,

773
00:40:33.000 --> 00:40:35.440
<v Speaker 2>and you're throwing down ex show. I'm going to press

774
00:40:35.480 --> 00:40:37.079
<v Speaker 2>you on this and all that kind of stuff. That

775
00:40:37.159 --> 00:40:39.519
<v Speaker 2>kind of terminology people get and they want to see

776
00:40:39.519 --> 00:40:42.239
<v Speaker 2>the best players being able to do that too.

777
00:40:42.440 --> 00:40:45.519
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Yeah, So I cannot let you go without giving

778
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:47.840
<v Speaker 1>us an update on what's going on with flow code.

779
00:40:48.199 --> 00:40:49.159
<v Speaker 2>Oh thank you. Yes.

780
00:40:49.280 --> 00:40:49.400
<v Speaker 1>So.

781
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>Flow code theflow code dot com a company that I

782
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:57.039
<v Speaker 2>started about six years ago, and it's basically tools, frameworks,

783
00:40:57.039 --> 00:40:59.199
<v Speaker 2>and strategies to help somebody go from a fear state

784
00:40:59.480 --> 00:41:02.480
<v Speaker 2>to a flow state. We have online, we have an app.

785
00:41:03.000 --> 00:41:04.920
<v Speaker 2>We work with a lot of golf academies and golf

786
00:41:04.960 --> 00:41:07.519
<v Speaker 2>coaches to be their official mental game partner. We have

787
00:41:07.559 --> 00:41:10.599
<v Speaker 2>a junior academy. We do a lot of live events.

788
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:13.239
<v Speaker 2>I was fortunate to go to China and Thailand and

789
00:41:13.320 --> 00:41:16.280
<v Speaker 2>Denmark and Slovenia last year, and we got some more

790
00:41:16.320 --> 00:41:18.519
<v Speaker 2>world travel going on this year. So it's really cool

791
00:41:18.880 --> 00:41:21.719
<v Speaker 2>to get the mental game out there for all those players.

792
00:41:22.400 --> 00:41:25.840
<v Speaker 1>Is flow Code gonna end up with a simulator? Are

793
00:41:25.840 --> 00:41:27.119
<v Speaker 1>we going to be on the golf course?

794
00:41:27.239 --> 00:41:30.119
<v Speaker 2>We'll see, We'll see. There's some stuff we're talking about.

795
00:41:32.039 --> 00:41:34.880
<v Speaker 1>Well, again, I want to thank you because you were

796
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:37.599
<v Speaker 1>a big part of what I wanted the celebration of

797
00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:41.679
<v Speaker 1>a thousand episodes to be of Golf Smarter because you've

798
00:41:41.719 --> 00:41:45.920
<v Speaker 1>been How do I explain how I feel about what

799
00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:48.400
<v Speaker 1>you've taught us in the times that you've been with us.

800
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:52.920
<v Speaker 1>It's been remarkable, and your passion for it and your

801
00:41:53.039 --> 00:41:56.840
<v Speaker 1>understanding and your ability to articulate it has just made

802
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:59.119
<v Speaker 1>it so important to me to get you back. So

803
00:41:59.239 --> 00:42:00.000
<v Speaker 1>thank you for coming back.

804
00:42:00.440 --> 00:42:02.480
<v Speaker 2>Thank you Fred, and thanks for spreading the word on

805
00:42:02.559 --> 00:42:03.159
<v Speaker 2>the Metal game