Speaker 1: Hey.
Speaker 2: My name is John O'Keefe and I live in Petaluma, California.
Speaker 1: My favorite golf course is Rooster Rhyme. This is Golf Smarter,
episode one thousand and two.
Speaker 2: We were fortunate to be at the Masters. Number ten
requires a draw off. The team Colin Morrikawa prefers to
hit a fake, so part of preparation was him hitting
a lot of three woods with the draw. He hit
that fairway four out of four times. Now, it's not
a preference, but we prepared for it in advance, thus
we have a strategy for it. I think it's also
that people are thinking they're forcing something. Oh I don't
like back right hoole locations him at the middle of
the green. It's not saying you have to do anything,
but you're right. I think we get trauma because it
does trigger something that we've done poorly before. So it
reminds us, Oh, I don't like holes like this because
I did blank on yesterday and so intend to flipping
it go. Yeah, that might have been just a poort
off swing, had nothing to do with the shot itself.
But how do I now shift gears of what is
the shot required? Have I done it before? If I
can do a different shot, I can lay up. I
think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too much. But
I would also say what's required, A smooth little three wood,
it's all that's required. I've done that before, I can
do it again. But replacing that initial threat with what
we've done before in a positive way is what I
like to do.
Speaker 1: The difference between confidence over cockiness is subtle, but it's
effective in lowering scores with reccessing.
Speaker 3: Hosts, this is Golf Smarter, sharing stories, tips and insights
from great golf minds to help you lower your score
and raise your golf IQ.
Speaker 1: Here's your host, Fred Green. Welcome back to the Golf
Smarter podcast.
Speaker 2: Rick, Hello, Fred, how are you?
Speaker 1: I am fine? I'm excited. I love this celebration that
I've been doing on episode one thousand and everything around it,
and getting a short list of people that I've wanted
to have come back and just you know, air their
complete knowledge and just grind you as best as I can.
And you are high on the list because I just
love our conversation. So thank you for.
Speaker 2: Coming back, Thank you for the invite.
Speaker 1: Unbelievable. So you know, we we've had multiple conversations. We
talk about the flow code, we talk, we've and I've
talked to many people about the mental aspect, and that's
really the focus of this, uh this podcast. And it
seems as if over the last twenty years of this
podcast that the conversation about the mental game has only
strengthened and maybe even came out of nowhere from before
where it was all swing mechanics. And you are following that,
especially with the flow code at theflow code dot com.
Please check it out. What if you witness because you've
been coaching for more than those twenty years.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's the evolution like I talk about
with performance in goal specific I've been a member of
the I am a member of the PGA, been coaching
for over thirty years. I've seen a transition happening through coaching.
And again, at first it is about swing mechanics and
getting good fundamentals. We have to teach technique and skills,
of course we do. And I think when we look
at maybe what happened almost twenty years ago, we started
seeing physical Fitness TPI come on board a little bit more,
which was awesome. We started understanding the structure of your
body is going to govern your function what you can
and cannot do. Right. I'm a lot older now, I'm
a little bit tighter than I was playing college golf.
I can't do the same things I used to be
able to do with this swinging right. So there's a
physical component. I think we're getting more knowledge on that.
I think we've got club fitting has improved. We've got
even biomechanics, which is a fascinating the industry of force
plates and three D and vests and all these things
to understand how the body's working in real time is
all fantastic. And yet I think that puzzle piece, which
we have always believed has been important, but we are
finally talking about it, is the mental side of the game.
And we go back to you and I read tons
of books. You go back to Nicholas books and Harvey
Panic books. I mean there's some mental game stuff thrown
in there, a little bit if you really want to
dig in, right. Of course, management a little bit here
and there. So I've seen a huge upswing in mental
game coaching. Slash acceptance, I guess is the first word
of why are we talking about it more? Because I
think the players are talking about it more in their
post round interviews and when they win, it's like, hey,
what was this week about? You don't hear Yes, I
got my great position of my takeaway. It's more like, hey,
I got my mindset right, I got my focus right.
I dealt with the pressure in this way. I did
some breathing, and because it's out there, more people were going, oh, Rory,
he's like me. I'm like him, Oh my gosh, we're
on the same I can't swing like him, but I
could go through some of the other mental stuff like him. Huh.
Maybe that's something I can address. And I think there's
some wonderful I mean, you have some of the best
mental game coaches and experts on so you know, that's
a growing field and us coaches, I believe we have
a lot to say and it's starting to be accepted
and applied finally.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I'm curious from your perspective as we
talk about that twenty years, there's also been a tremendous
amount of change in golf through technology, right, and a
lot of it of course being you know ball speed
and your launch angle and you know your dispersion all
that stuff. The technology is there a GPS. But how
has that impacted the mental aspect of what we do?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think part of it is the certainty, like
the measurables.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: So you mentioned that when Backman or the first radar
systems came out, we had factual data of what a
ball did, and we also knew what the club and
club face was doing to make it produce this and
the attack angle, and so it wasn't guessing anymore, and
I think that was liberating for a lot of coaches,
like we're not guessing. Great when you have certainty of
when the club does this and the ball does this,
we can then reverse engineer the swing mechanics. That's a
great space to be. Okay, then you start seeing this
technology of the force plates and of the three D
and all this to get even more of those specific measurements,
and for some people in the industry that's been a
key thing of knowing what works and what doesn't. Now
I would we can go on a whole other discussion
on is the technology being overused and we're not coaching
enough that we can talk about here in a moment.
I don't want the technology to be the coach right now,
with the mental side, though, is I'm excited on two fronts.
Is technology is starting to be used in the mental
side of the game. If we want to measure the
mental game. Up to this point, it's been very challenging.
How do you measure the mental game. You take people's opinion, Hey,
did you focus on the course? And if they said yes,
then I guess that's our measurement. It was very subjective, right,
But now it's exciting. And I've experimented with some of
these technologies in the last fifteen years and they've accelerated.
Is you know, eg, brain brain wave sets. Right, we
can actually measure brain waves in real time while somebody's
hitting a golf ball. We have heart rate variability, and
we can measure not only the heart rate, but the
stress response somebody is having in real time. We have
more wearables on right, people are wearing I have this
aura ring that measures heart rate and sleep patterns, and
we have whoop. We have all these wearables now, so
we're starting to uncover a little bit more about what's
happening maybe deeper in somebody. Right, And it's going to
only accelerate with virtual reality and augmented reality. We're gonna
be able to put people in stressful environments, provide interventions
to help them understand how to deal with those stressful environments.
Just like if you're trying to make a let's say,
a four foot put to win the Masters in the
Career Grand Slam or something like that, right, I.
Speaker 1: Wonder what it could be talking about.
Speaker 2: So when we have these different environments, can we train
for those? And that's what I'm excited moving forward as
we go. So technology can be used for good or
for evil, depending on how much we want to mess
people's heads up and what are they focusing on. But
I think a lot of coaches are relying on it
to get more of the factual data of cause and effect.
I think the mental game is still a few years behind,
let's say the swing stuff, but it's getting there and
we're gonna have some pretty cool stuff here in the
next few years. Why behind because the wearable technologies still
need to work in real time better. So like there's
a lot of players on the PGA Tour that wear
the whoop band, right, it does measure heart rate variability,
but it can't do it by second by second, and
in real time is where we as much as we
would like it's close, it's getting there, but if it's
giving a vague thing of what happened in the last minute,
But we want to know what's happening when we make
the golf swing. That's why I say the wearable technology
is going to get better. I think we'll be able
to measure more things and more accurately. You know, right now,
we don't put a EEG headband on and somebody when
they're playing a PGA tournave. I think in the future
we're going to have some fun with that. So I
think there it's still a little bit the accuracy, how
quickly the data can be utilized, and how many markers
we can we can start to measure.
Speaker 1: To the wearables, is that instant information and or is
it something that posts around You can go back and
look at like your arcos and looking at your.
Speaker 2: Stats correct a lot. It's going to be post right son.
We can download like I have the AURA ring, I
can download what my activity was for the last few hours.
It will tell me activity score, stress response, all these
time of things. It'll give me a heart rate variability score.
But again it becomes a little too vague for when
we're talking about a shot by shot basis, So yes,
and I think it's gonna happen relatively quickly. We'll be
able to put a marker there that oh I hit
a drive on number one, I hit a putt on
number two, and put markers there in real time to
now look back and go, oh, why did that heart
rate variability change here? Or why did the EEG go
a little bit with faster brain waves beta instead of
lowering humh. Then it's easy to have that conversation about
the mental game. But yeah, how quickly the data can
be uploaded is one key thing. And then in real time,
Like again, if I'm playing in a tournament, I can't
utilize that technology to improve my golf game, right art goes, Yeah,
you can put your stats in and all that stuff,
but you look at it afterwards and look for patterns.
Right now, we can look for patterns, but it still
needs to improve a little bit on the second by second.
Speaker 1: As a golf coach who works with some players at
the highest level on the on the PGA Tour, can
a wearable help you and will it get to the
point where it can help you While you're doing, say
a practice round with that player and you're there as
their coach. Can you get that data and say, oh
that the last shot, we could let's discuss what happened,
what was going on in your body? Is that doable now?
Speaker 2: I think it's pretty close. My company Flow Coaching realize
with a company called Focus Calm, which is a brain wave.
Speaker 1: He's bending over to pick something up.
Speaker 2: Yes, picking it up, and so we can then pop
it on the forehead and measure brain wave activity in
real time and I can swing with it on. So
I could go out on the range and use it.
I could go for a practice round and use it,
and then it's downloaded to an app and we in
real time could see a certain score of how we
call active or stress somebody is, or how focused or
calm somebody is. We can do that. I think again,
you're going to get more acceptance of that in the
future when the technology just gets a little bit quicker
and easier to translate.
Speaker 1: And that data is of value to a coach.
Speaker 2: For me particularly, it is because I know the brainwave
activity is correlates with somebody who's able to get into
a flow state or not. Flow state is optimal experience.
I'm completely immersed in the present moment, I believe I
can take on this challenge in front of me, and
the brainwave activity is a lot less. It's a lot lower.
When somebody is in a highly stressed environment and they're
more in a fear state, it goes beta waves. They
get really really thinking a lot and that's harder now
to perform at our best. Right, we're at our best
when we're actually thinking less. So when we're now measuring
brainwave activity, we have some marker. Now we don't know
what they're thinking. Right, I can still be thinking happy thought,
but I'm thinking way too many thoughts of the future.
Oh my god, I'm going to have this trophy of
my guess that's positive, but probably don't want to be
thinking about that when I'm trying to make a four
foot putt. So it's like, where are we focusing on.
We will want to have less brainwave activity happening during
the execution of a golf shot, and so we can
use brain waves to help us understand the state somebody's in,
like I said, along with heart read variability, and there's
other you know, not that we could ever do this
in real time, but blood markers we would want to know,
like hormone levels coming in cortisol, all these type of
things that could also, of course affect our state that
we're in.
Speaker 1: As Again, as a coach who coaches at the highest level,
we know what the amateurs go through. We know what
recreational golfers go through when they step up to the ball.
The swing thoughts are overwhelming and disabling in many ways.
But pros who've really grooved their swing, I mean, their
pinpoint accuracy is remarkable to watch. Are they thinking swing
mechanics at all? Are they trying to stay mentally healthy
when they're stepping up to the ball. Where are they
from your experience.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a loaded question. It's like week
week to week. Yeah, it could be a different answer,
oh for that player. So confidence has a big part
of how much I'm thinking. Right, So if I'm playing
well and I'm practicing well and I'm getting good results,
there's a higher likelihood that my brain wave activity is
going to be lower because I do trust what I have. Yet, again,
it doesn't matter the level of player. When Tuesday, the
ball's going a little sideway, Wednesday it's going a little sideways,
they may get into panic mode, like oh, crap. I've
got to figure out a way to find the fairway, okay,
And I think everybody's experienced that, so I think it
player to player. Yes, some players I think are able
to accept that they don't have their A game and
they can go out there a little more and go, okay,
let's just get it around the golf course. Let's try
to not to force anythings, while other, maybe inexperienced players
press the panic button because they don't have their A game.
And so I think it's a little bit of a
gray area for players is when do they press a
panic button, which is now I have three swing thoughts,
or it's like, nope, here's my ballflight. I'm going to
play with what I got. Let's go round one. Then
after let's try to figure something out. But I think
that comes through experience also. But all humans are humans,
and we will tend to try to fix things with
thinking and logic and analytical stuff. And if we go
down that rabbit hole too much, it actually hinders the
performance even more.
Speaker 1: Who has more of an impact on confidence And we're
going to talk a lot about confidence. We have to
coach or the caddy.
Speaker 2: That's a great question. I'm gonna. I'm going to say
before they tee it up on the first hole, it
would be the coach and then of course, shot by shot,
the caddy now has a huge role. And I think
if you work together, that you're now saying the same
message and there's a consistency of message.
Speaker 1: Together being the coach and the caddy.
Speaker 2: Correct yes, that that we're using the same verbiage or
or how we're going to go through preshot routines in
a certain way, and it can be similar. But that
end goal of what is the player need to hear?
Maybe need is too strong of a word, but how
do we put them in an optimal state with what
we say, the questions we ask, and even how we
react to how a player is going about it. But
I think part of the coaches is to help them
prepare for the event, and the caddies there is the
anchor on a shot by shot basis.
Speaker 1: M h Okay, now let's get to confidence important, critical
or yeah it's okay, we talk about loaded questions.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I look at because flow in the optical state,
it starts with focus, so flow follows focus. The only
way to get into a flow state is to be
in the present moment. So we always say it starts
with focus. Yet and next piece of this is somebody
needs to believe they have the skills to match the
challenge in front of them. So the belief system is confidence,
my belief in my ability that I can execute the
shot in front of me. Okay, now, we can certainly
talk about what could enhance confidence, what could I do
in the present moment, which we'll get into in a moment,
But confidence is a core of it. If I believe
I can do something, I'm in a much different attitude
than oh crap, I hate this whole oh my gosh,
and that's going to create a threat response, which is
to stress fight or flight. So yes, confidence has a
lot to do with how we perceive the shot in
front of us. Can I do it or not? I
think that's a big question to ask. And if the
answer is no, I can pick another shot certainly, or
I go, oh well, let's just try it anyways, and
then good luck with that. So confidence is a core
of the mental game. Our belief is very important.
Speaker 1: How do we convince ourselves? Right? Well, let me finish
this question in the sense that I was once told
by a listener, and we've used this all the time.
Never follow a bad shot with a stupid shot. Yeah, right,
So how do we get to the point where we're
standing over the shot going just because I can see
the flag doesn't mean I can make the shot.
Speaker 2: So now we're talking about either we're making a decision
based on emotion, like I'm mad or I'm frustrated because
of the last hole and I need to get it back.
That's a post shot routine emotional regulation question. The other
one is somebody who's just ultra aggressive risky. They're ego
gets in the way I'm going to go for that
whole location. Now it sounds like it's confidence, but it
is it cockiness to the point where that is not
playing the percentage of course, right, So I think that
that those are two different things, and I think confidence,
you know when you said convince ourselves or something like that.
Of course, we want to get to the point where
we're not trying to convince ourselves. It's either I believe
I can do it or I can't. And some of
that has been with past results. Have you hit the
shot successfully in the past before the answer is yes, okay,
at least I can maybe go back into my memories like, yeah,
this is a five arm, I've hit plenty of really
good fibers. Went oh last week I had that, And
we can now change the memory. Because most people are
geared to what they don't want because oh crap, I've
done this bad on this whole before, we're trying to
replace a memory with what we've done in the past.
I think preparation and practice that can build confidence, you know,
having practice rounds, getting a game plan. All the best
players in the world do that the moment. A lot
of the research is self talk. What am I saying
to myself three seconds before I hit the shot? That
thought will trigger an emotional response in us. I don't
like this shot. I'm in between clubs. I never do
well with this right And to the outsider, it's like, well,
now the ball's in the fairway, it's one hundred and
thirty five yards. What's their problem? But they're interpreting it
as I don't like hitting three quarter shots. If I
forced this, you don't know what the mental warfare is
going on upstairs. But if the self talk is like, yeah,
I know how to hit a three quarter nine iron,
I go here to hear I've done it before, Let's
do it again. That self talk now can can change
us and it can change our emotions. So visualizing success right,
seeing success before it happens is a way a precursor
for confidence. Right in recovery shots, It's not something we've practiced,
but we hit these unbelievable trouble shots because we see
it so clearly underneath the tree in here, right, It's like,
where'd that come from? Clarity? It came from clarity of
what you wanted to do, and then you allowed yourself
to do it. So confident, I think has many it
has a foundation. But in that moment, in those twenty
seconds before you hit a shot, what am I thinking?
What am I saying to myself? What am I seeing?
Will set the table for our commitment to the shot.
Speaker 1: When you mentioned replace a memory, I frequently will when
I walk up to a tea box and I'm playing
with someone who goes, oh I hate this hole. It
beats me up every time. I always you know that
golf history has nothing to do with your next shot.
Do you realize that? I mean like, you're talking yourself
into a real problem here. Don't do that? How well?
Speaker 2: I think is what we're doing is we're trying to
superimpose what is the shot required? So let me give
you an example. If I like to fade the ball
and I come up to a hole that is a
dog leg left. At first, it's like that doesn't match
my eyes fair enough, right, I prefer to hit a fade,
but it's a draw biased type shot. Well, I still
have options. Do I have to hit a draw? Maybe not?
Maybe I hit a three wood to the corner of
the dog leg, so don't have to do anything. Or
I could say, what is the shot required? Actually, it's
just requiring me to hit a driver that I hit
all the time. I am a little more left even
I know that's not correct for a dog leg left,
and I play my natural pattern. I could do that too,
And then would be have I ever hit a draw before?
And I said, well, yeah, I'm not as comfortable though,
but I would remember a time that I've done that.
Have I done it on the range before? Yes? I
can now superimpose that memory onto the present shot as
much as I can. It's the same thing like Augusta. Right,
we were fortunate to be at the Master's and there's
number ten requires a draw off the tee. Colin Morrikawa
prefers to hit a fade, so part of preparation was
him hitting a lot of three woods with the draw.
He get that fair way four out of four times. Awesome. Okay,
Now it's not a preference, but we prepared for it
in advance. Thus we have a strategy for it.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: But I think it's also that people are thinking they're
forcing something. Oh I don't like back right whole locations
came at the middle of the green. It's not saying
you have to do anything, but you're right. I think
we get and I know this will sound like a
weird word, but trauma because it does trigger something that
we've done poorly at before. So it reminds us, Oh,
I don't like holes like this because I did blank
on this type of hole yesterday and so intead of
flipping it go. Yeah, that might have been just a
poort offswing, had nothing to do with the shot itself.
But how do I now shift gears of what is
the shot required? Have I done it before? If not,
I can do a different shot. I can lay up
I could. I think people pigeonhole themselves a little bit too. Much.
But I would also say it's required. H a smooth
little three wood, it's all. It's required. I've done that before,
I can do it again. But replacing that initial threat
with what we've done before in a positive way is
what I like to do.
Speaker 1: You just brought up Colin. You did, I didn't, But
now that you did, y Well. When we first spoke,
you were working with Colin, and the next time you weren't,
and now you are again. That's all we need to
talk about as far as that's concerned. But here you
are coaching you know somebody who he was one of
my picks before the Masters started this year, and he
is always one of my picks because I just love
watching this kid play. And he won in San Francisco
and it is you know, it's major during COVID. But
you've been with him since he was a child, right.
Speaker 2: Eight years old? Yes?
Speaker 1: Yeah, Can you share with us some of your greater
challenges as a coach with someone since from being an
eight year old to being a high level professional.
Speaker 2: Sure? So, first off, I'm extremely fortunate to have that opportunity,
right so, meeting him as an eight year old and
being with him for twenty years we had a small
little break. But what happens at every level is we
achieve goals, we raise the level again and again, and
sometimes expectations can get in the way of performance. Is
we think we should always fill in the blank, always
break eighty for maybe some of your listeners, maybe win
a major once a year. I mean, they're all different expectations,
and when we don't meet those, there's frustration that incurs. Okay,
So I think the most challenging things working with really
good players is expectation management. And then if we don't
meet those expectations, how do we deal with frustration? How
do we deal? And I think Colin and I worked
very well together along with his team as caddie, as
putting coach and manager and everything is that we're always
trying to get the old aditor, trying to get a
little better every week. It doesn't always mean that there's
going to be a win at the end of the week.
He would like to It doesn't always mean it's going
to happen, right, And the best example would be in
Maui this year at Kapalua. Right we're at the Century
event and we've done a lot of prep. He had
a true offseason, he felt ready, felt refreshed, ready to go.
And I may get this incorrect, but I think he
shot thirty one under par for the four rounds. Okay,
it's the fourth lowest score in PGA Tour history. But
he lost to Hideki Matsayama, who had the lowest score
in PGA Tour history. So what do we take away
from that week? We lost? Or did we play really well?
I mean, and that's the torn part is that we
are assess based on wins, and I get that wholeheartedly.
Yet are we getting better or not? And I think
that's the fine line that this game it's tough, and
then even when you're playing really well, it's tough to win.
And then if you win, then people are expecting you
to do it more often. It becomes a vicious circle. So,
you know, I'm proud that you know, Colin works real hard,
he's moving forward, he's had it. You know, this is
where we're taping it. Here is still first quarter of
twenty twenty five, and he's had a good, solid start
of his year and very optimistic that it's going to continue.
So that's the biggest thing is expectation management.
Speaker 1: That's fascinating. You know, you talk about he shoots thirty
one under and gets beat And one thing that you know,
recreational golfers have to realize, these guys are not going, oh,
you got to give me three strokes, right. They don't
play with an index on the tour, right, these guys
are like, we all count every single shot and we'll
see what happens at the end. There's no strokes given here,
but expectation management on that level where we again, as
amateur recreational golfers, even if we're club you know, playing
for club championships, we're not as good in expectation management.
I'm sure you've worked with a lot of people who
you have to like tamp that down.
Speaker 2: Yes, And yet I think it's the nature of just
golf in and of itself, right, Okay, a lot of
our play, a lot of the listeners here have broken
a hundred. Well, then they expect to break a hundred
all the time, and then ninety, and it just keeps
ratcheting it up. So once you've done it a few times,
you have a new expectation. Totally get it. That makes sense.
The problem is is that there's so many variables in
performance with golf is that if we just looked at
the score alone and say, oh my gosh, I shot
eighty one. I didn't break eighty how to and you
forgot you made a quad on one hole where you
got a bad bounce off of this that you know,
It's like, we have to put it in perspective a
little bit. But it's interesting. I don't work with as
many amateurs as I used to, but giving a golf
school weeks ago, and we had a player who had
never broken ninety before, okay, and he hit a shot
and hit a drive about one hundred and eighty yards
down the middle, and we're going, oh my gosh, and
he goes, Rick, I just want to do that every time. Now,
for everybody out there, one hundred and eighty yards is
not a huge shot. I get that, and he hit that.
But here's somebody who struggles with keeping it in the
same zip code. But now once he hits a good shot,
he says, oh, I just want that every time. He's like,
come on, how about we shoot for four out of
ten right now? Right? It's just what we get the
taste of success in this game, and it just brings
us in. It's like, well, Rick, I just did it.
I should do that every time I go. We're not robots.
We're not. And so that's where I don't care what
level we have, this disassociated of what should happen, right,
which is an expectation. I should do that more often.
I should I get that, but holy smokes, it is
making the game very frustrating because we were probably not
going to meet those expectations. So now how do you
deal with that? And then we have all that other stuff.
But I actually try to use stats for diameters too.
It's like, let's say the old adage of what's a
PGA tour make rate from roughly eight feet? It's right,
roughly right. So this person's getting mad because they didn't
make an eight footer. I'm like, well, the best players
in the world, it's flip a coin, okay, and yet
you think you should do it three out of four times.
It's like wait time out here, okay. So I think
stats is what's been been very useful for expectation management
on a shot by shot basis. But I think again,
once we taste some success, we think, well, I've got it.
I said, well, I don't know if you've got it.
You tapped into it. Now can we get it more often?
Speaker 1: Taste it?
Speaker 2: You've tasted it, right, So I think it's a challenge
for all of us golfers.
Speaker 1: No question about it. But when you say we're not robots,
let's remember that there's a golf ball in between all
of this. And even the robots don't hit the exact
same shot every single time. It's not like you're looking
at a dispersion rate of a robot, you know, would
iron byron. You're not going to see the ball landing
within a yard of each other every single time. Correct.
Speaker 2: I mean, we've got wind direction, we've got how the
you know, we've got water on the face of the
club and then the ball. I mean, yes, we can
do it as close position conditions as possible to minimize variables.
But golf is in a randomized environment with all kinds
of variables. So I think it's people are very unfair
to themselves. Again, thinking they can do the same thing
over and over and over again when they can't control
all those variables.
Speaker 1: Is the lesson of the story.
Speaker 2: Stop thinking, it's when to think and what are you
thinking about? Right?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: If I am with doing a playing lesson and we
walk up to a second shot on a par four,
I hope somebody's thinking about the lie and the wind
and the yardage and how firm the green is and
where the whole location is, and I hope they're thinking
about those things to make a proper decision. Once we
make a decision, which is still analytical and still kind
of going, Okay, I'm going to hit a nine iron
and I'm going to aim at fifteen feet left of
the hall, I'm still thinking I'm creating an intention. Once
I get over the shot is when we start to
wine down that thinking pattern, and we would want the
thinking to go to more of a creative side of
either a visualization or a feel, and back to I
want to be athletic, is what people say. Right, Well,
I've now turned down the thoughts and my thought maybe
just target. It may be just the feel of hitting
a cut. It may be so I've minimized the thinking. Okay,
I think it's very difficult to tell people not to think,
but I think we've funneled it down to a lot
of thoughts, down to very few by the time we're
executing the shot.
Speaker 1: Earlier in the conversation, you said, is tech being overused?
We can talk about that later. It's time. Is tech
being overused?
Speaker 2: Short answer is yes, because and you know, golfers there's
the most passionate sportsmen will call it because they get
hooked into all the equipment.
Speaker 1: They love it.
Speaker 2: They're watching their players on TV. They go play the
same course as their players play. They're really connected to
the sport. Right. We golf nuts, right, That's why we
call them golf nuts, right. And I think part of
that is that they've got wrapped into what's happening in
our coaching industry is that because we can measure it,
it's useful. So let's measure our the force plates and
where our ground forces, and let's measure that, did your
spin rate go to twenty five hundred or twenty seven
hundred with your driver? And it's all really cool. It is. Okay, Yet,
how useful is the information to that fifteen handicap? And
I would argue it's very little for them to hit
a golf shot. The coach needs to do a better
job of filtering the information. So they don't show them
all the information. They just say, hey, now that we
got kind of your fingerprint of your swing, this is
what we're going to work on. And we get the
player to be very specific on one thing at a time,
then we're fine. But we have a lot of people
who are downloading the apps on their own phone. They
have simulators in their basements now, and they're seeing all
this stuff. They don't know what they're looking at, you know,
And then it's the analysis paralysis idea. So the technology's cool,
they overthink it. They see something on Instagram. I got
to do this, and they're down so many rabbit holes
and it's hard for them to come out.
Speaker 1: Again. You brought it up. I had my notes to
bring it up, but you brought it up. Simulators. I
there's a lot of people playing on simulator golf now
and I think it got a huge booth this year
with TGL yes and dealing with and watching Colin have
a blast with that. And one of my favorite parts
of TGL was listening to these guys not only give
each other a hard time and play with each other,
but the strategy involved. Right of simulator golf, But where's
the mental game and simulator golf?
Speaker 2: Great question, I still think because performance matters, and because
that the result is ultimately they want to hit a close,
they want to make a birdie, they want to win.
The whole performance is always at the core. So now
what are they focusing on, what are they thinking about,
what are they feeling emotionally? I know talking to Colin,
he really enjoyed the TGL experience, especially in see with
that stadium right and does your heart pump a little
different than even the first team maybe and.
Speaker 1: Celebrat and you get the shot clock ticking off on
your start pounding got way.
Speaker 2: I'm not used to seeing a clock right in front
of me and I have to And now you see
them change how they're feel So I think it's the
mental game of that is still the same, maybe different.
Like you said, the shot clocks in their face, they're
working in a team environment, They're working on environments like
an artificial green, like I'm not totally comfortable with this
because this is different than what I play on and
then hitting into a screen depth perception. I mean, there's
things that they're trying to process that is very mental.
And I think simulators are here to stay, and I
think it's a good thing. I've coached on simulators. I
think the technology is getting better and better where I
can actually change environments. I can put different wind patterns on.
I can put people in stressful situation in a simulator
and help with those interventions, help them hit shots that
it's like, yeah, you're going to take this out when
you go play that dog leg left, Let's do it
on the simulator first. So I think it's really cool
that it's growing. It's having people have a golf club
in their hand even more different situations, which to me
is the old adage growing the game.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and what do you want to see out of
tg L? Do you want to I mean it seemed
to be a successful first season. It was a lot
of fun for the viewers. It seemed like it was
a ton of fun for the players. I think there
are you a future?
Speaker 2: Well, I think there's a huge future and I know
nothing inside information. I think, of course they're looking to
grow and I think, you know, do you bring an
LPGA team on? Do you do you put in celebrities?
Do you put I don't know if they'll go down that.
Speaker 1: Co ed co ed team totally right, right.
Speaker 2: So we're trying to get more eyeballs on golf for
trying to get the younger generation. So now, how do
you bring do you bring influencers in? I don't know that.
The actual competition I think is pretty solid. I think
even in the in the season with the hammer and
stuff like that, they made adjustments, so I think there'll
be some adjustments there. It'll be interesting what kind of
simulator courses they'll use. Do you use now of course
that people are familiar with, or do you make it
just computer based or do you put them on pebble
b shue. I don't know. So I think there's there's
some cool stuff. I like the entertainment value, I like
them getting outside of their shell and the personality coming out.
I think they'll feel more comfortable with that moving forward.
But again it's more eyeballs on golf.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we had Aggie pis On, who is one of
the three architects who designed courses for TGL, which was,
you know, fascinating because one of the great elements of
golf is that like we get to play the course
that they get to play. Not really, but you know,
there's a couple of courses we get to play that
they get to play. But here is something that's a
complete challenge to these guys, only to the hand picked
few who are the best in the world. They get,
you know, get to play these unique holes. I loved
that element of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there's there's there's a novelty to it. I
was like, Wow, I've never seen something like that before.
And then how are they going to deal with it?
And I think it is pretty cool. Maybe they throw
in one hole that everybody knows about, right, and I
think the familiarity, like we see with Augusta, is that
everybody knows what to expect from the Masters. It's the
same course, the same environment, you have those memories and
stuff like that. I think there's something to be said
on that. Yet, if we're talking technology, we're creating new
golf courses and the creativity part of that I think
is really cool too.
Speaker 1: One of the elements that I did truly love about
it was like, Tiger cannot walk seventy two holes anymore.
It's pretty obvious that he'll never be able to. Even
if he does, he's not going to be that competitive.
You know. They've left him behind on that and it's
exhausting for him physically and emotionally and mentally. But with
tgl oh, the seniors can really play the game now, right,
if they can get used to the idea of hitting
into a screen thirty five yards away. I think bringing
seniors in, I'd love to I'd love to see call
and play against you. I'd like to see these guys,
a team of players and their coaches playing against each other.
Speaker 2: I got to talk to my agent on that one,
and I think that's the fun part is like you
and I play golf, and a lot of why we
play golf is the camaraderie. Our friends are the trash
talking with dad, and I think if you bring that
to this and yes, you're bringing a coach, a caddie,
a whatever, you know that it's kind of like what
you would be doing on your Saturday morning, you know,
and you're throwing down ex show. I'm going to press
you on this and all that kind of stuff. That
kind of terminology people get and they want to see
the best players being able to do that too.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So I cannot let you go without giving
us an update on what's going on with flow code.
Speaker 2: Oh thank you. Yes.
Speaker 1: So.
Speaker 2: Flow code theflow code dot com a company that I
started about six years ago, and it's basically tools, frameworks,
and strategies to help somebody go from a fear state
to a flow state. We have online, we have an app.
We work with a lot of golf academies and golf
coaches to be their official mental game partner. We have
a junior academy. We do a lot of live events.
I was fortunate to go to China and Thailand and
Denmark and Slovenia last year, and we got some more
world travel going on this year. So it's really cool
to get the mental game out there for all those players.
Speaker 1: Is flow Code gonna end up with a simulator? Are
we going to be on the golf course?
Speaker 2: We'll see, We'll see. There's some stuff we're talking about.
Speaker 1: Well, again, I want to thank you because you were
a big part of what I wanted the celebration of
a thousand episodes to be of Golf Smarter because you've
been How do I explain how I feel about what
you've taught us in the times that you've been with us.
It's been remarkable, and your passion for it and your
understanding and your ability to articulate it has just made
it so important to me to get you back. So
thank you for coming back.
Speaker 2: Thank you Fred, and thanks for spreading the word on
the Metal game