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Jump jump 47 00:02:00.439 --> 00:02:01.840 Ackesito dot com No. 48 00:02:03.840 --> 00:02:05.400 Turn, condition of details. 49 00:02:16.479 --> 00:02:19.919 You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking 50 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:23.039 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 51 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:23.919 written about them. 52 00:02:24.680 --> 00:02:29.159 Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. 53 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:33.879 Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking 54 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:38.159 and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with 55 00:02:38.199 --> 00:02:53.400 your host journalist and author Dan Zufansky, The New York 56 00:02:53.439 --> 00:02:57.280 Times best selling author of The Kennedy Women, chronicles the 57 00:02:57.360 --> 00:03:01.000 powerful and spellbinding true story of a brutal race based 58 00:03:01.080 --> 00:03:05.080 killing in nineteen eighty one and subsequent trials that undid 59 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:09.199 one of the most pernicious organizations in American history, the 60 00:03:09.280 --> 00:03:13.240 klu Klux Klan. On a Friday night in March nineteen 61 00:03:13.280 --> 00:03:17.240 eighty one, Henry Hayes and James Knowles scoured the streets 62 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:20.680 of Mobile, Alabama in their car, hunting for a black man. 63 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:24.280 The young men were members of Clavern nine hundred of 64 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:28.120 the United Clans of America. They were seeking to retaliate 65 00:03:28.159 --> 00:03:30.840 after a largely black jury could not reach a verdict 66 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:33.840 in a trial involving a black man accused of the 67 00:03:33.919 --> 00:03:37.479 murder of a white man. The two clansmen found nineteen 68 00:03:37.560 --> 00:03:41.680 year old Michael Donald walking home alone Hayes and Knowles 69 00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:45.280 abducted him, beat him, cut his throat, and left his 70 00:03:45.360 --> 00:03:48.800 body hanging from a tree branch in a racially mixed 71 00:03:48.879 --> 00:03:54.560 residential neighborhood. Arrested, charged, and convicted, Hayes was sentenced to death, 72 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:57.039 the first time in more than half a century that 73 00:03:57.120 --> 00:03:59.759 the state of Alabama sentenced to white man to death 74 00:03:59.800 --> 00:04:03.800 for killing a black man. On behalf of Michael's grieving mother, 75 00:04:03.879 --> 00:04:07.400 Morris D. S, the legendary civil rights lawyer and co 76 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:11.000 founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center, filed a civil 77 00:04:11.039 --> 00:04:13.840 suit against the members of the local clan unit involved 78 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:20.199 and the UKA, the largest clan organization, charging them with conspiracy. 79 00:04:20.480 --> 00:04:24.600 DS put the clan on trial, resulting in a verdict 80 00:04:24.600 --> 00:04:29.480 that would level a deadly blow to its organization. The 81 00:04:29.639 --> 00:04:33.079 lynching brings to life two dramatic trials during which the 82 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:37.240 Alabama Clan's motives and philosophy were exposed for the evil 83 00:04:37.279 --> 00:04:41.959 they represented. In addition to telling a gripping and consequential story, 84 00:04:42.639 --> 00:04:46.240 Lawrence Lehmer chronicles the KKK and its activities in the 85 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:50.120 second half of the twentieth century and illuminates its lingering 86 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:52.240 effect on race relations in America. 87 00:04:52.720 --> 00:04:57.240 Today. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Lynching, 88 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:01.480 the epic courtroom battle that brought down the Klan, with 89 00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:05.639 my special guest, journalist and author Lawrence Lemur. Welcome to 90 00:05:05.680 --> 00:05:09.040 the program and thank you for a Greeniness interview. Lawrence Lemur, 91 00:05:10.120 --> 00:05:14.120 thanks for having me, Thank you very much for coming on, 92 00:05:14.240 --> 00:05:18.399 and we're going to get to talk about an incredibly 93 00:05:18.639 --> 00:05:23.120 important book about an incredibly important time, if not the 94 00:05:23.120 --> 00:05:28.639 most important time in American history. Unlike your book. Let's 95 00:05:29.040 --> 00:05:35.560 go back to February nineteen fifty six. Morris DS is 96 00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:39.920 in his second year at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, 97 00:05:41.319 --> 00:05:45.399 and he's married with a newborn and trying to get 98 00:05:45.399 --> 00:05:48.959 his college and law degree in four years. Tell us 99 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:53.399 about Morris D's a little bit about his background and 100 00:05:53.879 --> 00:05:56.800 what is he doing in nineteen fifty six. I mentioned 101 00:05:56.800 --> 00:05:59.399 he's trying to get he's in school. Tell us more 102 00:05:59.399 --> 00:06:02.319 about Morris these a little bit about his character and 103 00:06:02.360 --> 00:06:04.279 what is he doing in nineteen fifty six. 104 00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:09.120 Well, Morris Jesu is a tall, sort of incredibly handsome 105 00:06:09.560 --> 00:06:13.360 young man. His father is a tenant farmer in the country, 106 00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:16.920 in the cotton country outside outside of Montgomery, Alabama. He 107 00:06:16.959 --> 00:06:20.639 grows up a segregationist, says, did every practic everybody wipe 108 00:06:20.680 --> 00:06:23.639 every other white person in Alabama. Although he had a 109 00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:26.399 lot of black friends, and most of his friends are black, 110 00:06:26.439 --> 00:06:29.720 and I know that because several of his friends for life, 111 00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.959 and I interviewed a couple of them from my book. 112 00:06:32.120 --> 00:06:34.399 But he was a segregationist. He had black friends, but 113 00:06:34.480 --> 00:06:36.759 those friends wouldn't come in the house and sit down 114 00:06:36.759 --> 00:06:40.240 with their family for dinner, that's for sure. So Morris Morris, 115 00:06:41.639 --> 00:06:44.240 you know, he realizes that racial things are not right. 116 00:06:44.360 --> 00:06:48.639 He has a there's one of the workers, one of 117 00:06:48.680 --> 00:06:51.360 the field hands that his father has on his land 118 00:06:52.000 --> 00:06:55.959 and he stopped by a state police trooper who says 119 00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:58.439 that he's drunk, and he's not drunk at all. Something's 120 00:06:58.480 --> 00:07:01.959 happened to his car and they find in this enormous amount. 121 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:04.360 And Morris is just a teenager. What does he know 122 00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:06.959 about the law. But he decides to go to help 123 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:10.199 this this this black fellow, go into court and and 124 00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:14.160 you know, and try to get this fine, this try 125 00:07:14.199 --> 00:07:16.839 to get this get off this thing because he didn't 126 00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:20.000 didn't really get anything wrong, and then go into the courthouse. 127 00:07:20.040 --> 00:07:23.800 It's just in a it's just in a country store 128 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:26.839 there and he tells his case and the state troopers says, no, 129 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:30.639 he's drunk. There's no evidence against him. But they find 130 00:07:30.680 --> 00:07:33.519 him three hundred dollars. And this man made about a 131 00:07:33.560 --> 00:07:36.000 dollar a day, and three hundred dollars was you know, 132 00:07:36.079 --> 00:07:38.920 it's just a devastating amount for him. And at that point, 133 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.199 Morris just saw that the life was unfair and black 134 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:45.120 people weren't treated right in Alabama. He understood, he understood 135 00:07:45.120 --> 00:07:47.920 that he was a segregationist, but he knew things weren't right. 136 00:07:50.920 --> 00:07:54.120 So he enrolls in college trying to get his law degree, 137 00:07:54.399 --> 00:07:57.680 and at that time at the University of Alabama, there 138 00:07:57.800 --> 00:08:02.000 is a protest. Again we're talking about aggregation and everyone's 139 00:08:02.040 --> 00:08:05.000 a segregationist, and it was the issue at that time, 140 00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:09.040 and it was a black woman named Authorine Lucy was 141 00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:11.639 trying to become the first black student to attend the school. 142 00:08:12.680 --> 00:08:15.959 So this sets up all of the You introduced a 143 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:18.399 lot of characters because they come into play right at 144 00:08:18.399 --> 00:08:21.399 this time. So tell us about this protest and this 145 00:08:21.639 --> 00:08:22.519 author and Lucy. 146 00:08:25.000 --> 00:08:28.079 Well, this is crucial in the history of the clan 147 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:33.000 and in the history of the fight against integration because 148 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.720 the clan came out and along with college students got 149 00:08:37.759 --> 00:08:40.919 out and started rioting against this young woman. It only 150 00:08:40.919 --> 00:08:44.519 want in education. She really wasn't a civil rights activist. 151 00:08:44.840 --> 00:08:48.000 She wanted a kind of library education and the University 152 00:08:48.000 --> 00:08:49.519 of Alabama was the only place you could get what 153 00:08:49.559 --> 00:08:51.840 she wanted. And she says, kind of push, she got 154 00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:54.759 pushed into this activist's role that she didn't even want. 155 00:08:55.159 --> 00:08:58.799 And Morris had gotten married when he was a senior 156 00:08:58.799 --> 00:09:04.000 in high school. His bride got pregnant. He was he 157 00:09:04.039 --> 00:09:06.279 had a brand new baby. He didn't have any money. 158 00:09:06.360 --> 00:09:09.159 He had to struggle to get through, get through get 159 00:09:09.159 --> 00:09:11.799 through college. He did everything he could to make money. 160 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:15.919 He uh, he went to the dorms and he and 161 00:09:15.960 --> 00:09:17.960 his wife made sandwiches and they took him around in 162 00:09:17.960 --> 00:09:20.960 the dormitories at night. And when he went that night, 163 00:09:21.159 --> 00:09:23.480 all they talked. They were talking about was this black 164 00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.159 woman trying to get into school and what and what 165 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:29.639 could they do well? The protest was so extreme, like 166 00:09:29.720 --> 00:09:32.480 they pushed her out and she did not enter the school. 167 00:09:32.879 --> 00:09:36.000 That Morris was a very good Baptist. Some people think 168 00:09:36.159 --> 00:09:40.559 because his name is Morris, sees a lot of people 169 00:09:40.600 --> 00:09:43.879 think he's Jewish. He's not Jewish. His grandfather named his 170 00:09:43.960 --> 00:09:47.519 three sons after three Jewish businessmen he admired. But but 171 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.639 he but he was he was a Baptist and uh 172 00:09:51.279 --> 00:09:54.440 he he was the leader of the uh the of 173 00:09:54.519 --> 00:09:57.360 the marriage students and the Baptist shirts are on campus. 174 00:09:57.600 --> 00:09:59.480 And that Sunday he got up in church and said, 175 00:09:59.519 --> 00:10:01.679 you know, this is not right what was done to 176 00:10:01.919 --> 00:10:05.279 to to to missus Lowsey. I mean, it's not it's 177 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:08.360 not what we in Christians, that's not how we should 178 00:10:08.399 --> 00:10:11.039 behave Well it was kind of murmuring in the in 179 00:10:11.080 --> 00:10:13.559 the church that day, and the minister came to him 180 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:16.080 next week and said, Morris, you know, we don't think 181 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:19.080 you're really that prepared to be the head of the students. 182 00:10:19.240 --> 00:10:21.840 Uh have the role you have in the church, and 183 00:10:22.320 --> 00:10:24.960 you better back off of that. So the Morris learned 184 00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.080 right then what would happened to be stood up? 185 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:32.000 Now you talk about his father. The father was a 186 00:10:32.039 --> 00:10:36.960 tenant farmer, but his father did have a great interest 187 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:40.200 in politics and was a gregarious guy and had some connections. 188 00:10:40.240 --> 00:10:44.240 So you talk about in the book the first time 189 00:10:44.279 --> 00:10:48.519 that des Is inspired politically or interested in politics was 190 00:10:48.559 --> 00:10:53.399 with a friend of his father, a Big Jim Folsom. 191 00:10:53.519 --> 00:10:57.399 So tell us about that event and how it inspired 192 00:10:58.000 --> 00:10:59.840 Morris D's with. 193 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:03.600 Big Jim Folsom was the kind of character you don't 194 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:06.399 see anymore. It was a bigger than life in every way. 195 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:12.399 It was a six six, wildly overweight, heavy drinker, very 196 00:11:12.480 --> 00:11:15.360 much of a populist he was. He was He thought 197 00:11:15.600 --> 00:11:19.120 that one day he thought that the white establishment had 198 00:11:19.159 --> 00:11:22.399 done everything to keep the poor whites in the poor 199 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.200 and the poor blacks from understanding that they had a lot. 200 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:28.960 They had, they had more together then they had more 201 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:31.360 to gain the working together than they did work in 202 00:11:31.399 --> 00:11:34.080 the part and and the and the establishment figured it 203 00:11:34.159 --> 00:11:38.200 knew that they created if they flamed racism and kept 204 00:11:38.240 --> 00:11:40.080 and kept the white working class and having them to 205 00:11:40.120 --> 00:11:41.919 do with blacks, that that was the one way they 206 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.120 could keep power. And that's that's what that's what Jim 207 00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:47.360 big Folsom said they were doing. But one day he 208 00:11:47.440 --> 00:11:50.279 said that the white working class in the back black 209 00:11:50.320 --> 00:11:52.720 working class would get together and there would be a 210 00:11:52.720 --> 00:11:55.039 different society, and that's what he was trying to do. 211 00:11:55.120 --> 00:11:57.639 His governor was a very very popular governor, and he'd 212 00:11:57.639 --> 00:12:00.960 come out to the the's home for just sit there 213 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:02.799 and get drunk, and just sit there and drink and 214 00:12:02.879 --> 00:12:05.759 drink until he could finally hardly walk, and his black 215 00:12:06.120 --> 00:12:09.200 aid and chauffeur, you know, picked him up and put 216 00:12:09.279 --> 00:12:11.480 him back in the car and drove drove him back 217 00:12:11.519 --> 00:12:14.159 to the mansion in Montgomery. But that's the first time 218 00:12:14.200 --> 00:12:17.799 that Morris got interested in politics and in the idealistic 219 00:12:17.840 --> 00:12:18.159 part of. 220 00:12:18.159 --> 00:12:24.559 Politics, and that interest in politics was not just a 221 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:28.879 passing thing. He was very he was he was seen 222 00:12:28.919 --> 00:12:32.960 as very ambitious. So what was his political life and 223 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:35.200 his future as a result of this ambition. 224 00:12:36.399 --> 00:12:38.240 Well, he was terribly ambitious. He wanted to make a 225 00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:42.720 lot of money. He had all these uh businesses going 226 00:12:42.799 --> 00:12:47.440 with his friend Millard Filler, who eventually started Habitat for Humanity. 227 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.639 They were in college together. They had all kinds of businesses. 228 00:12:50.679 --> 00:12:54.120 They did the student Guidebook, the student they did, they did, 229 00:12:54.360 --> 00:12:57.480 they did cakes. They figured out that you could see 230 00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.639 that you could write letters, send letters to the parents 231 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:03.519 and tell him about your son's having his birthday next month, 232 00:13:03.559 --> 00:13:06.399 and for five dollars will deliver a cake to his dormitory. 233 00:13:06.519 --> 00:13:08.440 And made a lot of money, made all kinds of money, 234 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.960 but he's politically ambitious too, and in nineteen fifty eight 235 00:13:12.639 --> 00:13:16.080 he took a semester off from school and was George 236 00:13:16.200 --> 00:13:21.919 Wallace's campaignman student campaign manager in the state in Wallace's 237 00:13:21.960 --> 00:13:25.840 first run for governor. George Wallace was another poor boy. 238 00:13:26.080 --> 00:13:31.440 George Wallace was University of Alabama student and got his 239 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.559 law degree from the University of Alabama. Ad did morris Es, 240 00:13:36.039 --> 00:13:39.159 and George Wallace knew a smart guy. He had the 241 00:13:39.159 --> 00:13:42.360 most brilliant cent of politics of anyone of his generations, 242 00:13:42.440 --> 00:13:46.159 other than probably Lyndon Johnson. He understood the white working class, 243 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:49.279 and he knew that segregation was going to end after 244 00:13:49.279 --> 00:13:52.639 the nineteen fifty four Supreme Court decision. It's just a 245 00:13:52.639 --> 00:13:55.320 matter of time before he's going to end. But he 246 00:13:55.440 --> 00:13:59.399 realized that if he became a militant segregationist, that was 247 00:13:59.440 --> 00:14:02.720 the quickest bight of power. He could manipulate these people 248 00:14:02.720 --> 00:14:05.320 and motivate them and tell them they'd never be integration, 249 00:14:05.679 --> 00:14:07.759 and he could rise to the governorship and maybe the 250 00:14:07.840 --> 00:14:10.519 Senate Senate. Who knows where he could go like this, 251 00:14:10.879 --> 00:14:13.559 But he was very cynical. He could have been the 252 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:18.840 the clerk of Alabama doing what the president of Clerk 253 00:14:18.919 --> 00:14:22.679 of South Africa did in working with Nelson Mandela to 254 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:27.159 end their part the abhorrent system of apartheid. George Wallas 255 00:14:27.200 --> 00:14:29.240 maybe could have done that, it would have been very difficult, 256 00:14:29.399 --> 00:14:32.480 but he chose a very different route. In nineteen fifty eight. 257 00:14:32.720 --> 00:14:35.840 Morris was there behind him as a student campaign manager. 258 00:14:38.440 --> 00:14:40.720 And Morris not only learned the ins and out of 259 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.480 politics in terms of campaigning and what it took to 260 00:14:44.519 --> 00:14:47.879 really get out there and get votes and organize people 261 00:14:47.919 --> 00:14:50.480 and get them to get them to the vote that day, 262 00:14:51.159 --> 00:14:56.039 but also he was privy to exactly what George Wallace 263 00:14:56.080 --> 00:14:59.960 thought at the same time the strategy that he employed. 264 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:04.120 So he was aware of the reality behind George Wallace, wasn't. 265 00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.240 He well more as these days like to say, well, 266 00:15:07.279 --> 00:15:12.159 you know, Walst wasn't that bad. John Patterson's opponent was 267 00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:15.679 a lot worse. Well, if you look at the clippings 268 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:20.279 walls during that campaign criticizing Patterson for not being tough 269 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:24.799 enough on segregation, So that doesn't hold. That doesn't hold Lotter. 270 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.919 To run for offices in those days, you pretty much 271 00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:31.120 had to be a segregationist, and Morris these was supporting 272 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:35.879 a segregationist there's no question about it. And three years later, 273 00:15:36.399 --> 00:15:39.159 three years later, it's a young lawyer. In nineteen sixty one, 274 00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:42.679 there was the Freedom Rides, remember the Freedom Rides, and 275 00:15:44.039 --> 00:15:46.600 the racial mixed groups came down to the South on 276 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:49.639 the interstate buses and when they reached Birmingham, they were 277 00:15:49.759 --> 00:15:52.919 beaten up, bludgeon to get to bludgeons half to death 278 00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:55.600 by members of the United Clans of America. And then 279 00:15:55.600 --> 00:15:59.320 another bus rises Montgomery, Alabama, the capital of Alabama, and 280 00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:02.679 they get out their bludgeoned there just with some some people. 281 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:06.320 With his injuries they never recovered from. Leading them was 282 00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:10.639 a man that Morris ends up his lawyer as a 283 00:16:10.639 --> 00:16:13.399 young lawyer. He defends this man. He defends them. Now 284 00:16:13.440 --> 00:16:15.320 Morris says, well, I didn't know he was a member 285 00:16:15.320 --> 00:16:17.480 of the clan. Well, I don't know how he didn't know, 286 00:16:17.799 --> 00:16:19.519 but he says he didn't know. He defended him in 287 00:16:19.559 --> 00:16:22.360 the courtroom, and there were some there were other defendants. 288 00:16:22.759 --> 00:16:26.720 One of the other defendants was Robert Shelton. Robert Sheldon 289 00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:29.759 was the Imperial Wizard of the United Clans of America, 290 00:16:30.000 --> 00:16:33.399 the most powerful clan leader clan leader in the United States, 291 00:16:33.679 --> 00:16:36.200 and he too had gone to the University of Alabama. 292 00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:38.600 He dropped out, but he was a pre law student. 293 00:16:38.639 --> 00:16:40.840 He was a smart young man and became such a 294 00:16:40.919 --> 00:16:44.399 rabid segregationist that he decided he would make his career 295 00:16:44.600 --> 00:16:47.279 through the clan. And when he sat in that courtroom 296 00:16:47.320 --> 00:16:49.960 and he sees Morris The's defending one of his fellow 297 00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:54.840 clan leaders, he thinks legitimately enough that Morris is is 298 00:16:54.919 --> 00:16:58.120 pro clan and most of the lawyers a defendant clansmen. 299 00:16:58.679 --> 00:17:03.440 They were either klansmen or their pro plan. No, Morris wasn't. 300 00:17:03.480 --> 00:17:05.880 And Morris says, well, I just defended him because I 301 00:17:05.880 --> 00:17:08.359 think the lawyer defends everybody. But in those days, you 302 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.880 really couldn't do that. When you when you defend the plans, 303 00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:15.119 when people said thought certain things about you in any case. 304 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:18.519 When that when that case ended in the courtroom, one 305 00:17:18.559 --> 00:17:21.039 of the one of the freedomrunners, came up to Morris's 306 00:17:21.400 --> 00:17:23.920 and said, how could you do this? Morris? How could 307 00:17:23.960 --> 00:17:26.480 you do this? How how could you be on this side? 308 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:29.720 And he realized how wrong he was. He realized he 309 00:17:29.720 --> 00:17:31.359 had to go he had to go different, he had 310 00:17:31.359 --> 00:17:34.200 to go a different route. And three years later, when 311 00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:38.279 when four little black girls were killed in Birmingham and 312 00:17:38.319 --> 00:17:43.160 the bombing up done by the United Clans of America 313 00:17:43.480 --> 00:17:48.720 and done under the instigation of Robert Shelton. Morris saw 314 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:51.640 that and he saw how terrible that was. He went 315 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:55.119 to his Baptist church in Montgomery, outside the country, in 316 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:58.079 the countryside that Sunday. And he was a lay preacher. 317 00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.480 In those days, you didn't need credentials to be preacher. 318 00:18:00.640 --> 00:18:03.640 You could just get up and preach. He did many Sundays. 319 00:18:03.960 --> 00:18:05.720 And he got up that Sunday and he said, you know, 320 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.400 my fellow Baptist, you know, we've got these fellow Baptists 321 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:12.759 in Birmingham. We got these fellow Baptists are in trouble. 322 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.160 We've got to help them. And the people shouted out, yes, brother, 323 00:18:16.440 --> 00:18:18.720 brother Morris, tell us we're gonna we want to help 324 00:18:18.759 --> 00:18:21.240 our fellow Baptists. He said, well, there were these four, 325 00:18:21.480 --> 00:18:24.279 these four little black girls were killed in the sixteenth 326 00:18:24.599 --> 00:18:27.359 Street Baptist Church in Birmingham. We got to help them. 327 00:18:27.680 --> 00:18:30.400 And they shout out, Noah, Morris, no, Morris, be quiet. 328 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.480 We don't hear about this. We want to hear about this. 329 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.599 This is in our business. Stay of your own business. 330 00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.720 And Morris kept on talking and talking, and they wouldn't listen. 331 00:18:37.960 --> 00:18:42.279 And finally he said, well, let's uh, let's pray. Let's 332 00:18:42.279 --> 00:18:45.240 shut her eyes and pray. So Morris bowed his head 333 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:48.880 and shut his eyes and prayed for quite a while. 334 00:18:49.359 --> 00:18:52.440 He raised his head, opened the eyes and looked down 335 00:18:52.440 --> 00:18:56.799 in the church, and everybody was gone. Everybody's gone. He 336 00:18:57.279 --> 00:18:58.359 was ostracized. 337 00:19:01.440 --> 00:19:05.240 He was ostracized by his own family as well well. 338 00:19:05.279 --> 00:19:07.720 He was upset. The next year, the time of the 339 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:11.799 Selma March, famous Selma March. At the beginning of that 340 00:19:11.880 --> 00:19:16.279 march UH with Martin Luther King, Morris and his fellow 341 00:19:16.319 --> 00:19:20.759 friend and partner Miller Filler Drove drove a bunch of people, 342 00:19:21.039 --> 00:19:24.279 civil rights activists who had come flown down. Your ministers 343 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:28.079 basically mainly Lutheran ministers, drove Drove and Selma to take 344 00:19:28.119 --> 00:19:29.839 part in the march. That's all I did. He didn't 345 00:19:29.880 --> 00:19:32.839 take part in the march himself. But at that time 346 00:19:33.119 --> 00:19:35.920 a state trooper came to his mother's house and says, 347 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.640 your son, Morris, he's getting himself in a lot of trouble. 348 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:41.720 He's with us communists. He better stopp being with those communists. 349 00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:43.759 There's no telling what's going to happen to him? So 350 00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:47.039 that was the thing every everybody's been watched in those days. 351 00:19:47.160 --> 00:19:49.079 You went a little just a little bit off off 352 00:19:49.119 --> 00:19:52.200 the straight and arrow in term segregation. You were in trouble. 353 00:19:52.400 --> 00:19:54.480 And Morris had walked a little bit off that road. 354 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:00.240 Now in nineteen fifty six when Morris D's was in 355 00:20:00.279 --> 00:20:05.240 the University of Alabama and he was witnessed to this 356 00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.519 black woman authoring Lucy not being able to get into college, 357 00:20:09.559 --> 00:20:12.000 and then you know, a couple thousand people, as you 358 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.039 write in your book, cheering and jeering at her, and 359 00:20:15.119 --> 00:20:17.279 she was they used some excuse to make sure that 360 00:20:17.359 --> 00:20:21.920 she was excluded from that university. Among the protesters you 361 00:20:22.000 --> 00:20:27.599 say that day was the important character Robert Shelton, and 362 00:20:27.720 --> 00:20:32.079 also Asa Carter and Robert Chambliss. And he had saw 363 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:33.759 the film Birth of a Nation, you said, and he 364 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:39.119 was an explosives expert. And there was a couple bombings 365 00:20:39.160 --> 00:20:42.400 like in Martin Luther over the bus boycott and that 366 00:20:42.480 --> 00:20:46.359 they thought might be related to him. So let's talk 367 00:20:46.359 --> 00:20:52.599 about Robert Shelton, Asa Carter, Robert Chambliss and what they 368 00:20:52.599 --> 00:20:55.079 were doing in nineteen fifty six before we talk about 369 00:20:55.079 --> 00:20:58.440 what they're doing in nineteen sixty one. 370 00:20:58.680 --> 00:21:03.319 Okay, they are these socially ditective people. Okay, they they're 371 00:21:03.319 --> 00:21:07.720 not church goers, they're not union members, they don't belong 372 00:21:07.759 --> 00:21:10.480 to the Rotary Club, they don't have too many friends. 373 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:15.119 And in the Klan they founded to find an identification 374 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:19.799 and purpose. They're lower class, are working class whites, and 375 00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:22.880 the whites, most whites look down on them. I think 376 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:25.799 they're white trash. The only people they can look down 377 00:21:25.839 --> 00:21:28.480 on are black people, and they don't want black people 378 00:21:28.519 --> 00:21:31.039 to rise up. And at that at the time of 379 00:21:31.160 --> 00:21:34.599 Lucy trying to the University of Alabama, Robert Sheldon was 380 00:21:34.599 --> 00:21:36.880 a young clansman and he was there and he was 381 00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:39.319 taking part in this riot and he just loved it. 382 00:21:39.799 --> 00:21:44.240 And a Carter was there. He was a very smart 383 00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:48.240 young man, a very talented young man and a clansman. 384 00:21:48.519 --> 00:21:51.680 He was there and Robert Chamlis was there. And Robert 385 00:21:51.759 --> 00:21:54.799 Chalmers has become notorious later is a bomb maker. We 386 00:21:54.880 --> 00:21:57.519 talk about the bomb makers now in terms of the terrorists, 387 00:21:57.519 --> 00:22:00.960 and isis now important role they play? Well. Robert Shelton 388 00:22:01.000 --> 00:22:04.359 was the bombmaker for the United Clans of America. He 389 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:07.799 made the bombs that blew up the Birmingham church at 390 00:22:07.799 --> 00:22:11.119 the direction of Robert Shelton. Robert Sheldon was there and 391 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.200 Asa Carter was a member of He was a member 392 00:22:14.240 --> 00:22:17.400 of a clan in Birmingham that castrated a black man. 393 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:20.640 I mean, these were terrible people, the things that they did, 394 00:22:20.839 --> 00:22:23.359 but they weren't stupid people. They weren't stupid at all. 395 00:22:26.559 --> 00:22:31.400 Now it's important because you tie in Shelton, and we 396 00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:38.759 talked about the governor Patterson versus Judge Wallace trying to 397 00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:43.079 be governor and them both using segregation, the issue segregation 398 00:22:43.160 --> 00:22:47.000 to their benefit, but also accusing each other of belonging 399 00:22:47.480 --> 00:22:50.640 or having ties with the KKK, which actually worked out 400 00:22:50.680 --> 00:22:54.920 for Patterson, you know amazingly. In your book you chronicle, 401 00:22:55.480 --> 00:23:00.640