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Speaker 2: You are now listening to True Murder the most shocking
Speaker 2: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 2: written about them, Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 2: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 2: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your
Speaker 2: host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening. Within the
Speaker 2: pages of The Bundy Secrets, Hidden Files of America's worst
Speaker 2: serial Killer is a unique, never before published look at
Speaker 2: the investigations undertaken stop the depredations of America's most infamous
Speaker 2: serial killer, Ted Bundy. Presented here in an easy to
Speaker 2: follow chronology are the raw, unedited in most fascinating official
Speaker 2: case files as they appeared to the detectives from the
Speaker 2: Pacific Northwest to the Rocky Mountains to Florida. Book three
Speaker 2: in Sullivan's The Bundy Trilogy, The Bundy Murders, A Comprehensive History.
Speaker 2: The first book in Sullivan's Comprehensive trilogy was a dramatic
Speaker 2: narrative of the killer's life, and book two, The Trail
Speaker 2: of Ted Bundy, Digging Up the Untold Stories, was dedicated
Speaker 2: to recollections of various friend witnesses and detectives associated with Bundy. Now,
Speaker 2: The Bundy Secrets complete Sullivan's opus by presenting readers with
Speaker 2: adjust the facts, rendition of the formerly classified files of
Speaker 2: the manhunt, as well as contemporary interviews gathered by Sullivan
Speaker 2: from dozens of sources along Bundy's trail of terror. This
Speaker 2: is a must have for true crime students of Ted Bundy.
Speaker 2: The book that we're featuring this evening is The Bundy Secrets,
Speaker 2: Hidden Files on America's Worst serial Killer, with my special guest,
Speaker 2: journalist and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program,
Speaker 2: and thank you very much for a green in this interview.
Speaker 2: Kevin Sullivan, Well, thank you Dan.
Speaker 3: For having me. It's always a great time that we
Speaker 3: have on the show talking about the books and stuff
Speaker 3: like that, so ill looking forward.
Speaker 2: To it absolutely. Thank you for returning again. Always good
Speaker 2: to talk to you, especially good to talk to you
Speaker 2: about Ted Bundy. Now, this is the third book, as
Speaker 2: we mentioned in the trilogy, the end of this long
Speaker 2: examination of Ted Bundy. In this you have reproduced various
Speaker 2: entire portions of the official record, so you say that
Speaker 2: people can read and appreciate all that's in there, and
Speaker 2: you've pulled out it out of the archives, original interviews
Speaker 2: and put it all together now. And we also talked
Speaker 2: just before the program about what you've also included is
Speaker 2: one of the most fascinating parts of this is the
Speaker 2: long hidden story of Louise Cannon, who spoke with Bundy
Speaker 2: only a couple hours before he kidnapped and murdered Melissa Smith,
Speaker 2: which was about four blocks away. So tell us a
Speaker 2: little bit about the reason for or the difference between
Speaker 2: what is the Bundy Secrets? What does it give those
Speaker 2: people that have never read anything about Bundy, but more importantly,
Speaker 2: the people that think they know everything about Bundy. What
Speaker 2: does Kevin Sullivan provide in the Bundy Secrets?
Speaker 3: Well, just let the audience know. For some people out
Speaker 3: there that might not be familiar with with all three
Speaker 3: of the books. My first book was The Bundy Murders
Speaker 3: of Comprehensive History. Now, that was my first book about Bundy.
Speaker 3: Was an in depth biography of the man and a
Speaker 3: deep look at the murders. It was where I was
Speaker 3: able to uncover new and never before published important information
Speaker 3: about three or four of the murders, and a lot
Speaker 3: of new information in general. And that's the book that
Speaker 3: really put me on the map as a true crime writer.
Speaker 3: And so again that was I didn't think I would
Speaker 3: write anything else past that. And in twenty fifteen I
Speaker 3: decided to write a companion by him to that, and
Speaker 3: that book was called The Trail of Ted Bundy, Digging
Speaker 3: Up the Untold Stories. And in that book, I retraced
Speaker 3: Bundy's steps. I described the locations how they appear today.
Speaker 3: I took photographs, and I also interviewed a lot of
Speaker 3: people that have never been interviewed before and got all
Speaker 3: that testimony in print, a lot of testimony from these
Speaker 3: Mormons friends in Utah, and so I thought again that
Speaker 3: that would be it. Now, what usually happens when I
Speaker 3: write a book, especially a book about Bundy, I have
Speaker 3: people contact me after the book is published. I mean
Speaker 3: they they come out from various directions. They're usually friends
Speaker 3: of the victims. I don't think I've had anybody so
Speaker 3: much to contact me that was connected to Bundy, but
Speaker 3: I sure have had it happen a lot with friends
Speaker 3: of the victims. And so what happens is after the
Speaker 3: second book was published, I'm gaining all this new testimony.
Speaker 3: And I remember when I published a second book, the
Speaker 3: Trail of Ted Bundy. I put in that book various
Speaker 3: case files portions of case files that I thought would
Speaker 3: be interesting to the reader. Now, what makes this last
Speaker 3: book in this trilogy so interesting is that the that
Speaker 3: the entire book is a republication of the case of
Speaker 3: many of the case files that I have found most
Speaker 3: the most important, and they are most of them are
Speaker 3: in their entirety. Now I had I had to pick
Speaker 3: and choose, because if you were to publish everything that's
Speaker 3: out there, the case files, you'd have a book with
Speaker 3: like maybe ten thousand pages. But I have picked out
Speaker 3: that which is important, and I got to do something
Speaker 3: in the Bundy Secrets that I never thought I would
Speaker 3: be able to do. I remember researching for the Bundy Murders,
Speaker 3: all of these case files thousands, and my personal file
Speaker 3: is probably somewhere in about eight eight seven, eight thousand pages.
Speaker 3: It could be a little bit more of its probably,
Speaker 3: but probably the range. And reading this stuff, I thought,
Speaker 3: my gosh, I pick and choose from these various case
Speaker 3: files to put in the book. I thought to myself,
Speaker 3: wouldn't it be nice if one day people could read
Speaker 3: these files like I'm having a chance to read them?
Speaker 3: To see all of this stuff that's in here that's interesting,
Speaker 3: really interesting, but you can't put everything in the book.
Speaker 3: And I thought, well, but that's never going to happen
Speaker 3: because the only way you can see something like this
Speaker 3: is to go into the archives and dig it out.
Speaker 3: And you can do that if you want to, but
Speaker 3: you know, ninety nine nine percent of the population is
Speaker 3: never going to do that. So as I began to
Speaker 3: receive new testimony from people after my second you know
Speaker 3: Bundy book was published, I thought, I'm going to do
Speaker 3: something I never thought i'd be able to do. And
Speaker 3: I ask my publisher if they agree with it, I'm
Speaker 3: going to do it. I said, how about a book
Speaker 3: on the case files? The unedited 're aw case files,
Speaker 3: but people can see what it's really like. And I
Speaker 3: knew what I would be presenting to them because these
Speaker 3: case files are exceedingly interesting. They like the idea. So
Speaker 3: that's what this book is, and people are going to
Speaker 3: be able to see stuff. I mean, actually, there's not
Speaker 3: another book like it on Bundy out there that shows
Speaker 3: the case files like this. And with that, I have
Speaker 3: a chapter at the end with all new, brand new
Speaker 3: testimony of various people who knew Bundy, or you know,
Speaker 3: knew the victim so well worked on the case. So yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's a really unique book. So as you put
Speaker 3: all three books together to make this trilogy, each one
Speaker 3: is a little bit different, but they all go together
Speaker 3: very well. And I, like I often say, after writing
Speaker 3: some six hundred plus pages in these three books, I'm
Speaker 3: fashed with Theodore. I may write an article one day
Speaker 3: about him somebody new comes up, but there won't be
Speaker 3: a fourth, you know, Bundy book anyway.
Speaker 2: I think that's as you said after the first one.
Speaker 2: I'll have to look that up, anyways, I did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you start this book in the murders began in Washington
Speaker 2: State in early nineteen seventy four, and you would say
Speaker 2: it would take over eighteen months before Bundy became a
Speaker 2: primary suspect. And you have fur fascinating stuff about that.
Speaker 2: So you first start off with the Washington, Utah, and
Speaker 2: Colorado reports and a victim named Linda Ann Heally from Seattle,
Speaker 2: and you say that this abduction is unique, and so
Speaker 2: tell us why you think this is in the annals
Speaker 2: of true crime. What's the uniqueness of this and the
Speaker 2: strangeness and the tell us about this abduction that Bundy does.
Speaker 2: Tell us why you think it is so fascinating and
Speaker 2: unique as well?
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, it really is. That you can take the
Speaker 3: Linda and Heally murder. I mean, I'm sixty two years old.
Speaker 3: I've been writing true crime a number of years. I've
Speaker 3: been reading about through crime since I was ten years old.
Speaker 3: I've never encountered anything like the Linda Heally abduction, and
Speaker 3: I don't ever expect to encounter anything like it. So
Speaker 3: here's the setup on that. There there were five like
Speaker 3: five co eds who had rented a room a home
Speaker 3: in Washington in the University district in Seattle on I
Speaker 3: think it's twelfth Street, and you know, it's just a
Speaker 3: neighborhood house, a nice big house. And if you go
Speaker 3: up to the front of the house, you have to
Speaker 3: walk up some steps and and you know, you walk
Speaker 3: up two sets of steps, so it's it's steep, and
Speaker 3: they have a front door, or you work up, walk
Speaker 3: up the first set of steps and you can go
Speaker 3: around and there's a side door that's on the side
Speaker 3: of the house that leads down to the basement. Well,
Speaker 3: Ted Burndy one night he went in there and he
Speaker 3: probably was following Linda and Healing and her friends from
Speaker 3: a place called Taste Tavern, which is a few blocks
Speaker 3: away on Roosevelt Avenue, and he probably followed them home.
Speaker 3: And he intimated to Stephen Michaud that after dark he
Speaker 3: tried the front door, saw that the handle was open,
Speaker 3: and he but he did not go in. And here's
Speaker 3: what he did later that night, in the middle of
Speaker 3: the night, I guess Linda and Heally went to bed
Speaker 3: around one am something like that, and then the lady
Speaker 3: next to her drifted off around one on one thirty.
Speaker 3: They were separated in the basement by partition of plywood.
Speaker 3: There was two rooms down there. So what Blundy did,
Speaker 3: this is just astounding. This is the stuff of fiction,
Speaker 3: but it's true. He came down, He came through the
Speaker 3: front door. He h most likely did. He went down
Speaker 3: to the basement steps, and he went in Linda Heey's
Speaker 3: room and he choked her into un consciousness. That's what
Speaker 3: he told Michael and the third person speaking of what
Speaker 3: that person probably did. He didn't beat her. She started
Speaker 3: to bleed, she started to have a nosebleed. It ran
Speaker 3: behind her, you know, oliver her nose and onto the sheet,
Speaker 3: you know, you know that was there. She was she
Speaker 3: was laying on her back, so he choked her into unconsciousness.
Speaker 3: I don't know if she was sleeping in the nude,
Speaker 3: but he moved her off of the bed. He took
Speaker 3: the night, her little nighty off of her or whatever. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's right, that's right, because she did that on but
Speaker 3: I don't think she had probably anything else on. But
Speaker 3: he took that off of her, that head blood on it,
Speaker 3: and he hung it up in the closet. He then
Speaker 3: made the bed, if you can imagine this, he made
Speaker 3: the bed. He grabbed like a book bag and he
Speaker 3: put some clothes in it. And we don't know if
Speaker 3: he covered her up with a sheet or a blanket
Speaker 3: or anything. But what he did was he hauled her
Speaker 3: up the steps and he went out that side door.
Speaker 3: Now there's only two ways that you can go. You
Speaker 3: can go around the few feet for five feet and
Speaker 3: you turn right and you can go down those steep
Speaker 3: steps onto the street. Now, keep in mind of the
Speaker 3: university district. There's street lights, there's kids. You know, it
Speaker 3: may not be a lot out at that time, but
Speaker 3: you never know who you're going to run into in
Speaker 3: a university district. So he takes either that way and
Speaker 3: puts in this car and leaves, or he has one
Speaker 3: other option. He can go to the back of the
Speaker 3: house if he parked his VW in the alleyway and
Speaker 3: he could put her in there. However, the alleyway is
Speaker 3: so narrow you almost effectively are blocking it. If you
Speaker 3: do that, then you also run a risk with that. Also,
Speaker 3: you expose yourself to anybody looking out of the window
Speaker 3: on the other side of all that. So a normal abductor,
Speaker 3: you would think, would probably not do that that way.
Speaker 3: So he doesn't kill her there, but he takes her
Speaker 3: from there, throllows her into unconsciousness and takes her from
Speaker 3: there and zips her away, and nobody is the liser.
Speaker 3: Now to me, that's an exceedingly bold abduction. And nobody
Speaker 3: in the house woke up. Nobody heard a thing to
Speaker 3: think of that. He took time to make the bed.
Speaker 3: Is that something that you would do or I would
Speaker 3: do if I was an abductor, I know I wouldn't
Speaker 3: do there. I would get out of there as quickly
Speaker 3: as I could. But nobody made the bed. She didn't
Speaker 3: even make her bed. That's what her housemate said, I,
Speaker 3: if that's what they said, she might do it on
Speaker 3: the weekend. But she got up so early to go
Speaker 3: to the radio station and do the ski report. She
Speaker 3: had to be there like at six thirty am. So
Speaker 3: through the week she never made the bed and she'd
Speaker 3: hop on her bicycle in the morning and go. So
Speaker 3: that is the Linda Healy abduction. And as I say,
Speaker 3: I've never heard of anything quite like that.
Speaker 2: Now, just to do a contrast to what you have
Speaker 2: is you have now in the book you reproduce a
Speaker 2: letter from a a friend named Tim Clancy. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: it speaks again to just the total contrast that Ted
Speaker 2: Bundy was. So tell us what he has to say
Speaker 2: about his friend and how and really how he knew
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's interesting because the guy who wrote Tim
Speaker 3: that letter, his name was Larry Boushaw.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 3: He he passed away a number of years ago, even
Speaker 3: before I wrote The Bundy Murgs. But but I had
Speaker 3: talked to Clancy on the phone. I actually got his
Speaker 3: his you know, permission to use that letter in the
Speaker 3: first book. Actually, McFarland actually you know, you know, required it,
Speaker 3: even though it was a part of the public record
Speaker 3: and what I did for the Bundy murders. I use
Speaker 3: a very small portion of that, so you can see
Speaker 3: in the Bundy Secrets, I use it all. And it's
Speaker 3: a very long letter. Well to give people the back story,
Speaker 3: Planty liked him, you know, Bundy, and they worked on
Speaker 3: some political campaigns together. Now, Larry Vallshaw wasn't that impressed
Speaker 3: with Bundy. And I tell the story and the Bundy
Speaker 3: murders of how Vashaw went rafting with Bundy and these
Speaker 3: girls and there were some other people there and Bundy
Speaker 3: it's like his personality changed and he did some things
Speaker 3: that to his date that you know, but to where
Speaker 3: he pushed her into she was in a little raft
Speaker 3: thing and he acted like he was going to cut
Speaker 3: the strings so she'd flowed away, and then he undid
Speaker 3: her top as a joke. Vallshaw didn't like what he
Speaker 3: saw out of Bundy, so his opinion of Bundy was
Speaker 3: pretty low anyway. But be that as it may. When
Speaker 3: it turned out that they were looking at Bundy, uh,
Speaker 3: you know, as the ones who had done these things,
Speaker 3: it's surprised Vosho and Clancy. Clancy was off in he
Speaker 3: was actually in Europe was he was in Italy, and
Speaker 3: I say in the Bundy Murders that he was living there,
Speaker 3: but actually he wasn't. He was, and I correct that
Speaker 3: for actually this book. But he was actually there in Italy,
Speaker 3: he was visiting, and in two weeks after that he
Speaker 3: was going to be in Pariss. But so Valshaw contacted him.
Speaker 3: What I found interesting, even though Clancy liked him, there's
Speaker 3: a portion in that where he talks about, you know,
Speaker 3: we don't want to think, like I'm going to paraphrase
Speaker 3: here that Bundy is this way, that he could be
Speaker 3: this fiend. But I mean they were considering it. Most
Speaker 3: people that knew Bundy wouldn't even consider that he could
Speaker 3: be involved in that. But this conversation between Larry Vaushall
Speaker 3: and Tim Clancy, Clancy basically says to him, you know,
Speaker 3: I mean you could tell that he was considering it. Also,
Speaker 3: Clancy said something smart. He said, you know, keep this
Speaker 3: to yourself for now. Don't report on an alpar phrase
Speaker 3: again to the authorities, because you know they'll take anything
Speaker 3: I say now it's fact. And he was wanting to
Speaker 3: think about this for a while because he had just
Speaker 3: received the letter. But it is a real interesting insight
Speaker 3: into how his friends had to come to terms with this. Now.
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Speaker 3: Were necessary day where everybody lost the terms conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 3: I've spoken to people beyond Tim Clancy. I mean, I've
Speaker 3: spoken with Ross Davis, he worked closely with him. I've
Speaker 3: spoken to Danny Lazarus and and some other people, and
Speaker 3: all of these folks that knew, you know, Bundy. They
Speaker 3: they gradually had their own epiphany as to Bundy's guilt,
Speaker 3: and it came at different stages. And I remember Ross
Speaker 3: David David said, and I quote this in the Bundy Meurs,
Speaker 3: but that he said it was over a period of
Speaker 3: time when like circumstantial evidence just kept adding up and
Speaker 3: adding up and adding up, that we decided, yeah, this
Speaker 3: is the this is the killer of all these women
Speaker 3: in the Northwest. It's it's it's Bundy. And it was
Speaker 3: a real shock. And I remember one of his friends said,
Speaker 3: and I quote this fella in the book, but his
Speaker 3: name is escaping me right now. He said, after Bundy,
Speaker 3: after this happened, he said, we had to reevaluate what
Speaker 3: we believed about even our own friends. And so you know,
Speaker 3: it shook these people up. But I thought that Tim
Speaker 3: Clancy letter back back back to Larry, which Larry then
Speaker 3: turned over to the authorities or mate. Yeah, that that
Speaker 3: that actually will Yeah, Larry would have had to have
Speaker 3: done that. I thought it was very insightful. And there's
Speaker 3: a few things that Clancy says in that letter and
Speaker 3: the way he says them that are just very very interesting.
Speaker 3: So you can you can tell that he even then,
Speaker 3: even though it was new, he was given some real
Speaker 3: thought to the possibilities of Ted being being the killer
Speaker 3: of all these women. Just an interesting letter.
Speaker 2: You include after this, Uh, One of the most fascinating
Speaker 2: and important parts of this book is interviews with Liz
Speaker 2: Klopfer or aka or Liz Kendall. And you say they
Speaker 2: did met in September nineteen sixty nine. So tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about this Liz Kendall and all that's
Speaker 2: contained in what she had to say.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, you have to really feel sorry for
Speaker 3: this lady. She was. She seems like a really nice lady,
Speaker 3: you know, Liz Kendall. I mean, she's still in Seattle today.
Speaker 3: She got married after the fiasco with Bundy, and I
Speaker 3: think her husband's path away. But I've seen a recent
Speaker 3: picture of her and she looks just the same. But
Speaker 3: she's older, just like all of us. Okay, But you know,
Speaker 3: she opened her life up to Ted and she really
Speaker 3: loved him. And you know, Ted was good to her
Speaker 3: for you know, the most part was good to her daughter, Tina,
Speaker 3: and you know they had a good relationship for a
Speaker 3: long time. But then you know, this other stuff started
Speaker 3: popping up. And when when Bundy became a sust even
Speaker 3: before he became a suspect with the police, so much
Speaker 3: people were pointing out to her the similarities of the
Speaker 3: one that they're looking for a guy in a Volkswagen,
Speaker 3: and the composite drawing kind of looked like her boyfriend.
Speaker 3: Things started to change and list, and as this investigation grew,
Speaker 3: she would spend the rest of her time going back
Speaker 3: and forth, believing that he's not the one, believing that
Speaker 3: he is the one. Her heart was wanting to do
Speaker 3: the right thing. She wanted to help the authorities. If
Speaker 3: he was the one, she would feel guilty though if
Speaker 3: he did not, look what she's doing to the relationship.
Speaker 3: And you know she is the one. If people are
Speaker 3: not really familiar with her, she's the one who wrote
Speaker 3: a book afterwards called The Phantom Prince, And it's a
Speaker 3: really interesting book.
Speaker 2: That book.
Speaker 3: It's never been reprinted. I even know somebody who was
Speaker 3: one who tried to talk her into reprinting the book,
Speaker 3: to do another edition of it, but she doesn't want
Speaker 3: to do it. And but so she wrote this book
Speaker 3: and it's got a lot of insight on from her perspective,
Speaker 3: how that relationship was. But she goes in that book
Speaker 3: by the name of Kendall, and to respect her privacy,
Speaker 3: I've always used the name Liz Kendall, but it is
Speaker 3: Clothfer and she's originally from She was originally from Utah
Speaker 3: and she moved there. She was married once and divorced ed,
Speaker 3: you know, her daughter with her first husband. But if
Speaker 3: I have, I think at least two of the deposition
Speaker 3: that they took of her, or the conversations that the detectives.
Speaker 3: I know, once Jerry Thompson and I think Ira Bile
Speaker 3: and another officer flew to Seattle and you know, we're
Speaker 3: talking to Liz, and they recorded it, and so there's
Speaker 3: a transcript in the book. But yeah, she'll pop up
Speaker 3: quite a bit. But their story is quite interesting. They
Speaker 3: met in nineteen sixty nine at a Seattle tavern and
Speaker 3: from then on, you know, they you know, they were
Speaker 3: hitting it off and they were a couple. The guy
Speaker 3: understand though, from Bundy's perspective, as much as he didn't
Speaker 3: want to lose Liz as a girlfriend, he was never
Speaker 3: faithful to her. He used to keep other women sequestered
Speaker 3: from her, but he wasn't faithful for her. Evodeman state.
Speaker 3: Of course, he wasn't in uzual, and of course he
Speaker 3: was also a murderer. But Ted's love for her, let
Speaker 3: us say, was not the same as her love for him.
Speaker 3: But it's an interesting side story. And so you know,
Speaker 3: I look at a person like Liz Kendall and her
Speaker 3: daughter and in a sense, there's just as much victims
Speaker 3: as other people. They just you know, they just had
Speaker 3: to kind of lass. But she's in there quite a bit.
Speaker 2: What's amazing about Ted Bundy again is this conflicted person,
Speaker 2: this almost a split personality for lack of a better term.
Speaker 2: But he you say, in nineteen seventy two, he worked
Speaker 2: at of all places, Harborview Hospital in the mental health unit,
Speaker 2: and then he worked he dated Sandy Gwynn, and he
Speaker 2: worked for the government Evans campaign Republican campaign in Seattle.
Speaker 2: In the fall of nineteen seventy two, he worked for
Speaker 2: the Seattle Crime Commission. Yeah, worked for Republican Party in Olympia,
Speaker 2: and then he started in nineteen seventy three, began law
Speaker 2: school at the University of Puget Sound as a night student,
Speaker 2: and he worked for the Department of Emergency Services in Olympia.
Speaker 2: So this is where there are a lot of people
Speaker 2: in this book that you've interviewed that no Ted Bundy
Speaker 2: from that and as you say, when they make their
Speaker 2: own realization epiphany that he is the person. But to
Speaker 2: say that he had a dual life as.
Speaker 3: And understanding, right, Well, you know what's interesting about this.
Speaker 3: Had Gundy not gone into murder, I mean, he was
Speaker 3: making a name for himself. He was, he was, he
Speaker 3: was very well liked. Had he not gone into murder,
Speaker 3: he would have gone he would have become the attorney
Speaker 3: that he wanted to, you know, become. He'd know that
Speaker 3: practiced in Washington State. He'd have know that gotten involved
Speaker 3: in politics. Who knows, he could have maybe won you know,
Speaker 3: you know, the governorship. Okay. He he had friends in
Speaker 3: Seattle and throughout Whton State who really liked him and
Speaker 3: would have opened doors for him. So you have to
Speaker 3: look at it like he's going through the motions. And
Speaker 3: there may have been times when he really thought, I
Speaker 3: cover this in the Bundy murders, for example, I talk
Speaker 3: about this when on the night he Metlist. You know,
Speaker 3: there may have been times when he thought, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe I can go that way. But he had this
Speaker 3: other stuff inside eating at him. And that's what makes
Speaker 3: you know he killed before nineteen seventy four. We don't
Speaker 3: know if he killed Amory Burr in nineteen sixty one,
Speaker 3: that he may have but he killed nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 3: He may have killed nineteen seven at nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 3: Those are possibilities. But he admitted killing in probably one
Speaker 3: girl in seventy three, But nineteen seventy four was different.
Speaker 3: When he did launch himself in the murder in January
Speaker 3: of nineteen seventy four, Bunday didn't make a public announcement,
Speaker 3: but what he was doing was forever dislodging himself from
Speaker 3: what was his normal world. He was getting rid of
Speaker 3: everything in his thought process that once held him to
Speaker 3: a life that could be considered normal. He started shirking
Speaker 3: his duties in the political realm. He was committing murder.
Speaker 3: That's all he thought about. He only did enough after
Speaker 3: these murders started in seventy four to create a persona
Speaker 3: that he was still a normal person. But everything within
Speaker 3: Bundy during nineteen seventy four and beyond was just about murder.
Speaker 3: And you think about this. He knew his life was
Speaker 3: going to be solitary, it was going to be predatory.
Speaker 3: He was going to be like a lone wolf for
Speaker 3: a shark out there just hunting women to kill. That
Speaker 3: was it. There wouldn't be a marriage there wouldn't be children,
Speaker 3: There wouldn't be sitting down at home with your family,
Speaker 3: wasn't watch on the nightly news. It's going to be predatory.
Speaker 3: And that's how he conducted his life. So something happened
Speaker 3: in him when he totally let it all go. And
Speaker 3: again I cover this in the Bundy Murders, so you
Speaker 3: know you've got and I cover something in my first
Speaker 3: book where it talks about how he didn't show up
Speaker 3: to like a caucus and letting him Helen West had
Speaker 3: to take his place, and so he was letting these
Speaker 3: things go by the wayside. And I'm sure it's Campadres
Speaker 3: and fellow politicals in the Republican Party were not liking
Speaker 3: that he was shirking off. But you know, he probably
Speaker 3: didn't come out and say, look, I'm just leaving it.
Speaker 3: He just started to pull back and other people started
Speaker 3: to notice. So yeah, it's an interesting life. And we
Speaker 3: don't know when that actual pivotal time came, but we
Speaker 3: do know, and I say this in my first book
Speaker 3: that you know, the end of nineteen seventy three for Bundy,
Speaker 3: you know, wasn't ending in that big of a hind ones.
Speaker 3: But it's interesting that he took the dawn of nineteen
Speaker 3: seventy four January to launch himself into this world of murder.
Speaker 3: It was almost like a celebratory jester to himself that
Speaker 3: he was becoming something like new in that new year.
Speaker 3: And so whatever happened to him, it pushed him over
Speaker 3: completely the edge, and he was okay with it. And
Speaker 3: I also say things like, you know, there would be
Speaker 3: no exit ramps. He wouldn't need them. He was heading
Speaker 3: down this world of murder and that's all it was.
Speaker 3: And if you look at his murder in Florida, I
Speaker 3: mean he was like I talk about the shark that
Speaker 3: moves through a lot of times sharks are solitary. They
Speaker 3: just moved through the ocean looking for food. Bundy by
Speaker 3: Florida was just moving through oceans of people. He was
Speaker 3: completely separated from family, friends, everything that he knew. All
Speaker 3: he was was moving through oceans of people. This was
Speaker 3: it like a shark looking for people to kill. That's
Speaker 3: what his life had been reduced as an extraordinary situation.
Speaker 3: When you look at the life of a serial killer
Speaker 3: like this, how you go from I mean, I couldn't
Speaker 3: have named it this, okay. I didn't get to pick
Speaker 3: the title of the book. I even once thought about
Speaker 3: name it from highchair to electric chair, and just think
Speaker 3: of that now we want to think of a little
Speaker 3: kidding high chair being electric tuted one day in an
Speaker 3: electric chair. But this thing covers his life, my first
Speaker 3: book as the Bibraphy covers his life from start to finish.
Speaker 3: And it's interesting to see, like it's right in front
Speaker 3: of you. It's just a big parade of it's what
Speaker 3: you know going by. But that's so pivotal when late
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy three and early nineteen seventy four, that's the
Speaker 3: line of demarcation that propelled Bunny, something that propelled him
Speaker 3: over into that realm of murder to where he'd never
Speaker 3: again come out of it, nor did he want to.
Speaker 3: It's fascinating to see. Actually.
Speaker 2: Now another part of this fascinating part of this book
Speaker 2: is the actual twenty four hour surveillance reports of right
Speaker 2: once they know that the zero in on Bundy, and
Speaker 2: they say you put in the book is the suspect
Speaker 2: is to be watched as closely as possible, not to
Speaker 2: be arrested or confronted in any way. And you say
Speaker 2: that they knew they he knew everything virtually about the guy.
Speaker 2: He had a girlfriend who had an eight year old daughter.
Speaker 2: They knew everything about her. They also knew these friends
Speaker 2: named Marlon Vortman and his wife ship Mannis. They knew
Speaker 2: where they lived. They didn't think too highly of this
Speaker 2: Wortman guy, who was an attorney, but they had this
Speaker 2: mapel down. They knew his sister was named Linda. She
Speaker 2: was in Tacoma. He eveuld stay at his parents again,
Speaker 2: in the normalcy, he would stay at his parents John
Speaker 2: and uwe Jesus placed sometimes. So you talk about this surveillance,
Speaker 2: So tell us more about what is entailed in that
Speaker 2: report on their surveillance and what you found the most
Speaker 2: interesting and unique and new in that those reports.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Sure, Just to set this up for the audience.
Speaker 3: When when Bundy had been arrested for the attempted kidnapping
Speaker 3: of Carol de Ranch and he was arrested and charged
Speaker 3: with that, he had been arrested actually in August seventy
Speaker 3: five as a they thought he might be a suspected burglar.
Speaker 3: But the murder kit they found in his car, the
Speaker 3: detective said, now this is for more than just burglaries.
Speaker 3: It's for he tied somebody up. And then later this
Speaker 3: is in August, and then later in the fall, you know,
Speaker 3: Jerry Thompson linked him to the abduction, the attempt of
Speaker 3: the abduction of Carol Doranch. So he was due to
Speaker 3: stand trial, and that trial, you know, he made bail
Speaker 3: after a period of time in the in the late
Speaker 3: fall of nineteen seventy five, and he had no restrictions
Speaker 3: on travel. And so Jerry Thompson picked up the phone
Speaker 3: and called the folks in Bob, you know, Bob Keppel
Speaker 3: and his crew and let them know that Bundy has
Speaker 3: no restrictions on travel. He's released on bail. He'll be
Speaker 3: standing trial for the attempt of the abduction of Carol
Speaker 3: doronch come like February of nineteen seventy six, and it
Speaker 3: was just just actually a few months and so they said,
Speaker 3: you know, we're letting you know this, okay, because of
Speaker 3: the women in your area and the Washington State people
Speaker 3: were already fully aware that he may come home, and
Speaker 3: they had been discussing things for quite some time doing
Speaker 3: they were doing a profile on Bundy with a couple
Speaker 3: psychologists in Washington States, and they suggested that they needed
Speaker 3: to put a tale the police need to put a
Speaker 3: twenty four hour surveillance on Bundy and to keep pressure
Speaker 3: on him like that, not you know, to arrest him,
Speaker 3: but they need. This was a tale where they wanted
Speaker 3: him to know they were tailing him. They did not
Speaker 3: want him to not know, so that he would not
Speaker 3: be inclined to go and murder another woman. It would
Speaker 3: almost like keeping him in check. And when I published
Speaker 3: my first book, I added a a little bit of these,
Speaker 3: uh of that time, you know, while he was home,
Speaker 3: just a little bit in the Bundy Murders. But I didn't.
Speaker 3: I didn't add it in its entirety like I do here.
Speaker 3: And uh, it's it's a fascinating look at it because
Speaker 3: when I'm reading it, you know, it's these cops are
Speaker 3: telling them where he stopped, what he did, how he
Speaker 3: tried to get away. And if you remember, there's you know,
Speaker 3: Bundy once gave them the slip in the University of Washington.
Speaker 3: He had gone into a bathroom. They waited for him
Speaker 3: to come out of it, and uh there was a
Speaker 3: door leading out another way and they actually, you know,
Speaker 3: you know, gave him, gave this one cup of slip.
Speaker 3: So I mean, it's just a fascinating. Look and uh
Speaker 3: uh you know this, These reports are so interesting because
Speaker 3: they tell where he went, and people that want to
Speaker 3: go back and track that stuff today, they can go
Speaker 3: back of these locations today and see where he gave
Speaker 3: him a slip or try to jog away from them,
Speaker 3: or where he you know, parked where he tried to
Speaker 3: block you know, one of the police officer's cars. So
Speaker 3: it's interesting. And like I say, there there's no deep
Speaker 3: you know, you know, revelations as to murders or stuff
Speaker 3: like that like came out in my first book, but
Speaker 3: very very very interesting stuff. I mean when I'm reading
Speaker 3: this and over the years I have read these things
Speaker 3: and when lads it there, and I regret that people
Speaker 3: can't won't be able to see this stuff because they'll
Speaker 3: never go in the archives. That was the thing that
Speaker 3: drove me to want to put all these in book
Speaker 3: for them because like how you felt, Dan when you
Speaker 3: were reading them, I'm sure you found that they were
Speaker 3: very interesting. That's the opinion of most people. They just
Speaker 3: it's fascinating just to see this stuff.
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Speaker 2: Now you talk about in this surveillance and again talking
Speaker 2: about this that his attorney O'Connell was at that time
Speaker 2: recepted to plea bargains where eventually Bundy refused. We'll talk
Speaker 2: about this later because it is much later, but he
Speaker 2: did refuse an offer of life sentence in Florida and
Speaker 2: took him to the electric chair there. So let's talk
Speaker 2: about what I found very very interesting is the late
Speaker 2: great and Rule the obous stranger beside me so definitely
Speaker 2: a person it was more than intimately and extricably involved
Speaker 2: with Ted Bundy. You include an interesting two hour and
Speaker 2: fifteen minute conversation that they have and tell us where
Speaker 2: what point and rule is that at this point, how
Speaker 2: much does she know about her friend Ted Bundy, and
Speaker 2: then tell us more about the two hour and fifteen
Speaker 2: minute meeting that they have what's included.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that's very interesting. In Ann Rule's books, she
Speaker 3: said they met. I'm going to give this off the
Speaker 3: top of my head. I think she said that they
Speaker 3: met for like three hours, but they actually met less
Speaker 3: than that. But and I'm sure the places are right
Speaker 3: about the time factor because they were trailing him and
Speaker 3: noting everything. But what happened was he he was going
Speaker 3: to meet her for a while. You gotta understand that.
Speaker 3: And Rule to him, and Rule was a friend to him.
Speaker 3: I think Bundy view Dan Rule and other people all
Speaker 3: about the same. And he was about using people. And
Speaker 3: so I don't know how much of a friend Bundy
Speaker 3: was to her, like I don't know how much of
Speaker 3: a friend Bundy was to anybody. But he used people,
Speaker 3: and especially he used women. So you know, But they
Speaker 3: had this meeting and that happened to coincide on the
Speaker 3: same day that Bundy and I covered this in the
Speaker 3: first book, had gone to the University of Wadington and
Speaker 3: he got into an argument with some people. I think
Speaker 3: a couple of law students who ask him to leave,
Speaker 3: saying basically, you're not welcome here. So he left earlier,
Speaker 3: I think, and that may have happened. I had to
Speaker 3: go back and check my book. I think that squabble
Speaker 3: happened in the law library. I'm not sure, but it
Speaker 3: was something, because it's in the police report. And so
Speaker 3: he left earlier than he wanted to from from the university,
Speaker 3: and he met Anne Rule in a French restaurant in
Speaker 3: downtown Seattle. Now Rule makes an interesting comment, she said,
Speaker 3: and I explained this in my book. She said that
Speaker 3: none must have been at a booth or something, and
Speaker 3: as Bloody sat there, he wouldn't look at her. He
Speaker 3: kept avoiding her eyes. Now she didn't come out and say,
Speaker 3: you're not looking at me, but she noticed it, and
Speaker 3: she wasn't a stupid woman, and she must have it
Speaker 3: must have looked like a hurry had something to hide.
Speaker 3: So she may have had her doubts about Ted, but
Speaker 3: by and large, I think she tried to believe the
Speaker 3: best of him throughout the thing, and later she came
Speaker 3: to the realization that, of course he's guilty. And you know,
Speaker 3: Jerry Thompson told me. He had a couple conversations with
Speaker 3: her when when Ted was in jail in Utah, and
Speaker 3: he basically said this, Anne thinks that he's benefit Okay,
Speaker 3: and she called talked to me, you know you're you're
Speaker 3: you're holding on to an innocent man. Well, I mean,
Speaker 3: Thompson knew he was guilty, and so you know, Andrew
Speaker 3: wasn't saying that to be saying it, so she obviously
Speaker 3: believed it. But that that out of Anne Rule is
Speaker 3: not that surprising because at that time a lot of
Speaker 3: people in Washington State believed that he was being framed,
Speaker 3: so that was pretty common. Later, as I say, everybody
Speaker 3: had their own epiphany, and it came for and Rule
Speaker 3: as it did for everybody else. The thing of it
Speaker 3: is they came in different stages and at different times.
Speaker 3: And I don't know where she found I mean, she
Speaker 3: may have gotten all the way to Florida, Okay, I
Speaker 3: don't know. Somebody told me that they thought that's when
Speaker 3: she finally got it during the trials there, but I
Speaker 3: can't swear to it. But yeah, it was an interesting thing.
Speaker 3: But you get the feeling when you read what she
Speaker 3: says about that meeting that you know, Ted spent the
Speaker 3: time obviously discussing himself, discussing what they were doing in
Speaker 3: Utah to him. You can just hear him now, you know,
Speaker 3: complaining about them and how badly he's been done. It
Speaker 3: would be the same old thing out of Bundy. However,
Speaker 3: she kept noticing he wouldn't look at her, and that
Speaker 3: is a telltale sign of somebody that's trying to hide something.
Speaker 3: So I think Will picked up on that. So it
Speaker 3: must have been an interesting meeting, and I don't think
Speaker 3: she was aware of it. Bundy may have been at
Speaker 3: that point, probably was, but I don't know if he
Speaker 3: mentioned to her. But the cops were outside waiting on him.
Speaker 3: I mean, if they were, just they were tailing him constantly. Now,
Speaker 3: even with the constant tail, they would lose him sometimes.
Speaker 3: And one thing that's interesting, and I can't remember the date,
Speaker 3: if it was December first of seventy five or k not,
Speaker 3: that may have been when they first were able to
Speaker 3: really start tagging Bundy. But he had gotten there actually
Speaker 3: in November, and for a couple of weeks they couldn't
Speaker 3: locate it, which must have been very, very frustrating to
Speaker 3: the investigators. But then they probably got a call from
Speaker 3: somebody and they were able to find out where he
Speaker 3: was and from then on it was like that twenty
Speaker 3: four to seven deal. That's interesting.
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Speaker 2: dot com slash murder. When we last left off, we
Speaker 2: were talking about the twenty four hour surveillance Kevin. What
Speaker 2: I found interesting again in this incredibly interesting and fascinating
Speaker 2: book is also you talk about a woman that was
Speaker 2: a potential Bundy victim and an encounter at Lake Samomash
Speaker 2: or samomash Ish. Sorry about the pronunciation. Her name was
Speaker 2: dak Jackie Plishy. So tell us the woman that got
Speaker 2: away from Bundy and the rules that he used in
Speaker 2: that instant an incident.
Speaker 3: There were you know, I can't, Yeah, they actually talk
Speaker 3: about her. There was a number of people that would
Speaker 3: not follow him on that day in Lake Samamish actually,
Speaker 3: so I can see where that does. It can be
Speaker 3: for stuff a bit of a thumb twister, but Lake
Speaker 3: Samamish is where this occurred. Allow fourteenth, nineteen seventy four.
Speaker 3: I think I can't, to be honest with you, I
Speaker 3: can't remember if she's the lady that followed him all
Speaker 3: the way to his car. She maybe, but there were
Speaker 3: a number of them. But lady who did uh that she?
Speaker 3: You know, I think at least two people saw his
Speaker 3: car parked in a certain area. He had done the
Speaker 3: lie that uh he needed he had cast or whatever
Speaker 3: on his arm, he had needed help getting his boat off,
Speaker 3: And then they'd go there and they'd say, oh, it's
Speaker 3: not here. He's always up at my parents' house in
Speaker 3: is the quaw. So you know, you know, most of
Speaker 3: the time, I'm sorry, I can't go on meeting somebody else.
Speaker 3: Oh that's okay. He's real nice. But then of course
Speaker 3: he gets you know, uh, jans Ott in the morning
Speaker 3: to go with him, and he does the thing with her,
Speaker 3: keeps her alive, and then gets gets the other lady,
Speaker 3: Denise Natha later in the afternoon. But the Plisky report,
Speaker 3: and I think I'm pronouncing her name right. I quote
Speaker 3: I quote from her from that report in the first book,
Speaker 3: But there was some additional stuff in that too, where
Speaker 3: it talked about she had seen some progress with him
Speaker 3: later on. A lot of these people were Some of
Speaker 3: these people came forth right away, and then some of
Speaker 3: the people that were at the lake that day came
Speaker 3: forth a number of months later. There was a guy
Speaker 3: named Jerry Snyder. He was a DEA agent. He wasn't
Speaker 3: interviewed well for a number of months. I can't remember
Speaker 3: how long, but it was a pretty long time. But
Speaker 3: he was able to tell the story and he had
Speaker 3: a good, good memory. But as far as the details
Speaker 3: with her, to be honest with you, I can't remember.
Speaker 3: There's so many of them. I can't remember exactly which
Speaker 3: one she was.
Speaker 2: She's the woman that was just before. She was just before.
Speaker 2: Oh jeez, my god, Denise Nasland. So okay, you put
Speaker 2: in the yeah, you talk about how he used the
Speaker 2: sailboat ruse. But she told him listen, I'm not very strong.
Speaker 2: And he says, well, he says, I he said, you
Speaker 2: told me she was. She said she was waiting for someone,
Speaker 2: and he said, okay, I see, and he walked away.
Speaker 2: And you say, within minutes he stopped and convinced Denise
Speaker 2: Nasaland to leave with him.
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, yeah, okay, that's right. She was later in
Speaker 3: the afternoon. She's not the only one. There was a
Speaker 3: number of other ones that blew him off right there
Speaker 3: at the end. And I say in the book, my
Speaker 3: first book, The Money Mercer, I faith he was tired
Speaker 3: and he was actually nursing a cold. And why he
Speaker 3: wanted to abduct to him one day, I don't know.
Speaker 3: By the time he got back to the park later
Speaker 3: that afternoon, and keep in mind, he had done whatever
Speaker 3: he wanted to do sexually with with with Janis Ott,
Speaker 3: but he had not yet killed her, and he had
Speaker 3: her secured somewhere and when he went back to the park.
Speaker 3: He had to have been exhausted. He was very tired.
Speaker 3: And I say in the book, I say that, you know,
Speaker 3: he was getting rebuffed from a lot of people.
Speaker 4: He just was.
Speaker 3: But I said, it's a numbers game, and he knew it.
Speaker 3: And that's true, and so he might have been a
Speaker 3: little edgy, but you know, he knew how to pull
Speaker 3: on the charm if someone became receptive to him. So
Speaker 3: not only did Twiskey had to say no to him,
Speaker 3: but a number of people blew him off. And you
Speaker 3: get the sense that he was a little less cordial
Speaker 3: with the people. Not it wasn't angry, but a little
Speaker 3: less cordial, a little less falling over them if they
Speaker 3: couldn't go. I mean, if you look at how he
Speaker 3: treated the women in the morning who couldn't who couldn't
Speaker 3: help him, it was exceedingly nice. Even one would fall
Speaker 3: into his card and said, oh I can't do it.
Speaker 3: I wait on my hut. All of that's okay. I
Speaker 3: should have told you he drew a lot of that
Speaker 3: was almost completely absent from his afternoon things. If they
Speaker 3: just weren't going to do it. I mean, with one girl,
Speaker 3: he just walked off and said nothing. After he knew
Speaker 3: he couldn't convinceal, he just walked off. So he was tired.
Speaker 3: And so right right after Plishki, he ran into Denise
Speaker 3: Vnslin who was coming out of the restroom, and that
Speaker 3: was probably about four twenty pm. And you know, her
Speaker 3: boyfriend and the other people she came with. And it's
Speaker 3: really sad is she had no plans to go there
Speaker 3: that day. She actually got to call her and a
Speaker 3: boyfriend got a call from somebody, and it was like
Speaker 3: a spur of the moment thing and yeah, she just
Speaker 3: decided to go with him just to be nice, you know,
Speaker 3: and what that was it. So she became the second
Speaker 3: victim of that day. But that double look, that's another thing,
Speaker 3: a double abduction one in the war. That's another thing
Speaker 3: that stands out about Bundy. A double abduction from Lake Sammas.
Speaker 3: About thousand people there that day, forty thousand people. One
Speaker 3: group was a police department there holding their own little picnic,
Speaker 3: and he just didn't care. He felt he could get
Speaker 3: away with it and he did amazing.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about also at the same time the
Speaker 2: incredible effort by detectives to solve this, and so they
Speaker 2: had November thirteenth, nineteen seventy five and Aspen, Colorado. You say,
Speaker 2: representatives of various police agencies from Colorado, Washington, California, and
Speaker 2: Utah discussing similar cases, similar transactions. So and you say,
Speaker 2: at the same time, during that still under twenty four
Speaker 2: hour surveillance, Ted Bundy joins the Mormon Church.
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, I mean by the time he got back
Speaker 3: to Utah and you know his well actually his time,
Speaker 3: the Utah police were surveilling him even before before he
Speaker 3: went to up to Seattle, Okay, And of course once
Speaker 3: he came back from Seattle, he was tried and convicted
Speaker 3: in in the Durance case. So Bundy could he could
Speaker 3: see once he was arrested for the Carroll for the
Speaker 3: Carroll Durance thing, that things are going to go badly.
Speaker 3: So he had met those Utah people and tried to
Speaker 3: kind of immerse himself in their life before he went
Speaker 3: to Seattle. But yeah, but they were following him there too,
Speaker 3: And and the surveillance in Utah really and really frustrated Bundy.
Speaker 3: And he was, you know, he he didn't know how
Speaker 3: to respond, and he would do things like he would
Speaker 3: take their picture, he would write down their license numbers,
Speaker 3: and he did some of that in Seattle, and it
Speaker 3: just you know, it had no meaning, had no meaning.
Speaker 3: He came up to one guy in Seattle, one company,
Speaker 3: he said, are you are you are? Are you police
Speaker 3: or a citizen or what? I just I don't mind
Speaker 3: if the police following me, but but I don't want
Speaker 3: citizens following me. And the cops said, do you have
Speaker 3: any questions? Just tackle SPDC. He had a police department,
Speaker 3: and you know, so, yeah, it was interesting. So in fact,
Speaker 3: I fand the bunny murders. It's like he was like
Speaker 3: a killer underglass. It was very very frustrating with him.
Speaker 3: It was almost like you know, they were doing their job.
Speaker 3: But it was a mind game too for Bundy because
Speaker 3: he didn't know how to handle it. And so yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's it's very interesting. Life changed for him when
Speaker 3: he was brought out of the You got to remember
Speaker 3: he totally had gotten away with it in Washington State,
Speaker 3: and you know, he came to killing Utah, and when
Speaker 3: that became a hot bit of investigation like Washington, he
Speaker 3: started killing in Colorado. Then I got hot over there
Speaker 3: and then he the night of all and then finally
Speaker 3: when he was brought to light. Everybody knew at once
Speaker 3: Bundy is their man, and they had this crime conference. Okay,
Speaker 3: and I say in my first book, I said, you know,
Speaker 3: these guys were, you know, telling all these facts. I say,
Speaker 3: something like as cold as an autopsy table. And you know,
Speaker 3: on these men had had learned about Bundy, they had
Speaker 3: learned about the case, and they just knew it like
Speaker 3: you know, you know the back of their hands. They
Speaker 3: were still discovering stuff though, and so they had this
Speaker 3: I think they called it the inter Mountain Crime Conference,
Speaker 3: and they knew their best hope was is that he
Speaker 3: would be put away for a long time for the
Speaker 3: killing of Carol Doranch. And Utah originally was trying to
Speaker 3: charge him with not only the abduction of Carol Douranche
Speaker 3: but the attempted murder. But they had to drop the
Speaker 3: attempted murder thing because there was no proof of that,
Speaker 3: although they all knew it even in the legal people
Speaker 3: said you have to drop and they all knew Bundy
Speaker 3: was going to kill her. So he got one to
Speaker 3: fifteen years in the Utah State prison, which they also
Speaker 3: all pointed them mount in prison. And you know, then
Speaker 3: from there it brought to Colorado, and you know, two
Speaker 3: escapes then all to Florida. But his life became his
Speaker 3: life changed dramatically after his first arrest in August of
Speaker 3: seventy five, where they found his murder kit and they
Speaker 3: thought he was a burglar, but they knew that, they
Speaker 3: just knew he was something more. So that was very
Speaker 3: pivotal from that time forward, that arrest forward, Bundy was
Speaker 3: never out of the spotlight for very long. And so
Speaker 3: that's why he could never kill again, at least not
Speaker 3: until they got to Florida. They did an excellent job
Speaker 3: of tailing him, and they couldn't always tail him, and
Speaker 3: you know, he would flip past them some. But I
Speaker 3: don't believe he come had any murders while he was
Speaker 3: being surveilled in Utah or or you know, anywhere else.
Speaker 3: So women were safe at that time, and then there
Speaker 3: would be three more that would die in Florida.
Speaker 2: You include the combendium of Lynette Culver, which is twelve
Speaker 2: years old and that homicide investigation. Yeah, May sixth, nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy five, she was reported missing. So tell us what
Speaker 2: you found in that, what's included in that that known
Speaker 2: has known previously?
Speaker 3: Well, just to give the audience an idea. That was
Speaker 3: one murder where I really kind of blew the lit
Speaker 3: off some stuff, and I found some stuff out that
Speaker 3: hadn't been really published before, this whole story of that
Speaker 3: murder and his time in Pocatello. And I remember people
Speaker 3: if they're familiar with the Bundy case. I called Bill
Speaker 3: Hagmer one day and we were talking, and I said, Bill,
Speaker 3: I've got this girl. Her name is Lynette Culver, and
Speaker 3: I only know a couple of things about herville And
Speaker 3: at this time I hadn't gotten the case bot yet,
Speaker 3: and I hadn't talked to the Idaho investigators. But Mike Fisher,
Speaker 3: the Colorado investigator, had told me that Bundy had drowned
Speaker 3: her in the bathtub. So I said, Bill, the only
Speaker 3: thing I know about this kid, she's twelve. I know
Speaker 3: her name and how Blundy killed her. He drowned her
Speaker 3: in the bathtub. Well, Bill Hagmer had never heard that,
Speaker 3: and he was skeptical, you know that he was hearing
Speaker 3: this from me, and he said, well, you know, I
Speaker 3: have all respects in the world for that investigator, because
Speaker 3: he and Mike Fisher liked each other. He said, but
Speaker 3: I've never heard everything like that. And I said, on
Speaker 3: every confession that was ever made. And I said, and
Speaker 3: you know, so here's hag May, the expert telling me this.
Speaker 3: Who I'm at the time, a novice, just trying to
Speaker 3: gather information and research and write the book. And I said, oh,
Speaker 3: I said, well, you know that's what I was told.
Speaker 3: But my mind was thinking, well, maybe this is wrong.
Speaker 3: But Bill said, look, if you find out something different,
Speaker 3: let me know. So from there I went back to
Speaker 3: Mike and I said, yeah, I got that from Russ's,
Speaker 3: you know, Renault, the Idaho investigator, So you need to
Speaker 3: call rd So I did, and Russ said, oh, that's
Speaker 3: absolutely true, and I'll tell you how this happened. You know,
Speaker 3: we had an hour, Russ said, and I've got the trial,
Speaker 3: not the trial, I've got the transcript of that Idaho confession.
Speaker 3: They had one hour exactly to talk to Bunny about
Speaker 3: two murders, the murder of a hitchhiker that he killed
Speaker 3: on his way to Utah when he moved there, and
Speaker 3: the killing of twelve year old that calver Well. In
Speaker 3: that back and forth, there's a lot they only have
Speaker 3: an hour, there's a lot of information going back and forth,
Speaker 3: and he was switching back from one murder to the next,
Speaker 3: and they asked, they asked how he killed her. He said, well,
Speaker 3: she she drowned, and then he said he had placed
Speaker 3: her in the in the in the river north of Pocatello.
Speaker 3: And so in their minds they're thinking, what she drowned
Speaker 3: in the river. But after they left the prison, the
Speaker 3: Restauranto said that his co investigator, Randy Everett, he said,
Speaker 3: you know, Bundy never he never really clarified that and
Speaker 3: said how he drowned her? Could you go back in
Speaker 3: the prison and see And to Bundy's credit, he had
Speaker 3: told the investigators at the end of that hour while
Speaker 3: his attorney was there, while Bill Hagenman was there to
Speaker 3: look at I know an hour is an hour isn't
Speaker 3: very long. It's not enough time. If you have any
Speaker 3: other additional questions, you know, contact me and I'll do
Speaker 3: everything I can to answer him. And you could tell
Speaker 3: he's being really genuine. So Bundy goes back, I mean,
Speaker 3: Everett goes back in the prison and and Randy asked
Speaker 3: to see Bundy. They say, okay. They take Randy Everett
Speaker 3: back to a room and they placed the minute and
Speaker 3: fifty and twenty minutes later, here comes Bundy. They sit
Speaker 3: down talk. There's no Hagmar there, there's no uh, Diana
Speaker 3: Weener the attorney there, there's there's nobody uh. And Everet goes, uh, listen.
Speaker 3: He's mentioned that you uh drowned, that she drowned, but
Speaker 3: you never said how. He said, oh, I drowned in
Speaker 3: the bathtub, and uh. And then and then he admitted
Speaker 3: late afterwards having text with the rest of death because
Speaker 3: he loves, you know, necrophilia. But I talked to Randy
Speaker 3: about that on the phone, and I said, and it
Speaker 3: turned out that Randy never asked whether she was taking
Speaker 3: a bath like a volition, or perhaps maybe she was
Speaker 3: strangled unconscious and then put in there and dround. We
Speaker 3: don't know all the mechanics of that, but he said.
Speaker 3: But Bundy said, oh, yeah, I drowned in the bathtub.
Speaker 3: So he was really forthright about how he did it.
Speaker 3: So keep in mind Bill Hagmer doesn't know this. So
Speaker 3: I emailed Bill that I had found out the truth
Speaker 3: and yes, and I got this directly from Randy Everett
Speaker 3: and here's why why he didn't know it. And so
Speaker 3: I published that a portion of that email in my
Speaker 3: second book, Portrayal of Ted Bundy, So I really broke
Speaker 3: the story on that. But it wasn't just the murder
Speaker 3: of at Culver, but I also was able to determine
Speaker 3: the type of hunting Bundy did well and in Pocatello
Speaker 3: he was there for a couple of days, and why
Speaker 3: he wasn't one of the reasons why, maybe the main
Speaker 3: reason why he was not able to get any college
Speaker 3: women to go with him. And I found out from
Speaker 3: the weather your old there's a police report of the
Speaker 3: weather at that time that it was cold that, as
Speaker 3: I say in the book, winter was refused into relinquishing
Speaker 3: its grip. There were snow showers and it was cold
Speaker 3: in the city on both days he was there. So
Speaker 3: you can just imagine Monday trying to get women to
Speaker 3: stop and talk to him. They're just not going to
Speaker 3: do it. And so the next day he gets a
Speaker 3: little you know of that culver from from from the
Speaker 3: junior high or middle school, Uh, you know Alameda And
Speaker 3: it's a straight shot. You take it right out of
Speaker 3: the hotel, which is today it's a clarion, but there
Speaker 3: was a holiday n you go on pull Hootello Creek
Speaker 3: Road and you hit it runs into West Alameda and
Speaker 3: turns into East, turns into East Alameda and turns into
Speaker 3: Wet Alameda, and then you hit the school. So he
Speaker 3: just stumbled on this school when they were I'm out
Speaker 3: for lunch and got this girl. Okay. So I got
Speaker 3: the full story from Russ Renault, the I got the transcript,
Speaker 3: I got the police reports, and so it was published
Speaker 3: in the Bundy Merch. Then when I was doing this,
Speaker 3: I was aware I didn't comment on this in the
Speaker 3: Bundye meurse. I didn't. I didn't feel any reason to
Speaker 3: comment on it. But there was this ridiculous urban legend
Speaker 3: that she was actually not picked up at the school.
Speaker 3: She may have gotten on a bus, she may have
Speaker 3: walked to another high school several blocks away, and people
Speaker 3: were believing all this. So I called up, you know,
Speaker 3: Russ Russ Renault about this and he said, oh, there's
Speaker 3: no truth to that. Bundy got her right at the school.
Speaker 3: And so I go on and I tell that story,
Speaker 3: and that was that was when I had completely destroyed
Speaker 3: that myth that people had believed. And then I touched
Speaker 3: on the fact of how all often these things happen,
Speaker 3: and if you look at the Bundy case. If you
Speaker 3: look at all the women Bundy killed, there were so
Speaker 3: many reports of most of these women being seen in
Speaker 3: other locations. People swear they saw them hitchhiking on a
Speaker 3: ferry somewhere else. And all of them were I won't
Speaker 3: call them live, I'll call them mistakes. And it's a
Speaker 3: total waste of policeman power. They have to check them
Speaker 3: all out, and all of these proclamations, you know. And
Speaker 3: the same thing with let at Gover was she boarded
Speaker 3: a bus that's already hitch hiking, she was walking through
Speaker 3: another school. None of it was true. So that was
Speaker 3: another myth that I kind of busted there. And then
Speaker 3: of course, you know, but it's an interesting story. But
Speaker 3: then again, the Gover case is one of the cases
Speaker 3: that I really presented in print in its totality for
Speaker 3: the first time.
Speaker 2: Now you talk about the various witnesses to the Kyomega attacks,
Speaker 2: and we'll also talk about the particularly you can't write
Speaker 2: this stuff in fiction of the Debbie Cicarelli and saving
Speaker 2: her friend, or her behavior in invertently saving her friend.
Speaker 2: But let's talk about what you found and what you've
Speaker 2: included about the particularly horrifying Florida attacks.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know BONDI by the time he got to Florida.
Speaker 3: You know he when he escaped for the second time
Speaker 3: from Colorado. I mean, if he'd have been just if
Speaker 3: they'd have done their job in Colorado, he wouldn't have
Speaker 3: gotten to Florida. Nobody else would have been murdered. But
Speaker 3: he escaped when the Chicago went to an armor stole
Speaker 3: a car, drove down through Louisville, down, stopped head breakfast
Speaker 3: here in Louisville, took the hard to Atlanta, dumped the
Speaker 3: car in Atlanta, took the trail where he was about
Speaker 3: to Tallahassee. And for a number of days while he
Speaker 3: was there, he's getting settled in there. He's stealing and
Speaker 3: he's doing everything. He's a master thief, right, credit cards, whatever,
Speaker 3: Turn your back for one moment he's going to steal something,
Speaker 3: but then they need to kill. Start coming up again.
Speaker 3: And when he killed in Florida, it was different, very different.
Speaker 3: Themo completely changed. When he started killing in Florida. He
Speaker 3: was no longer the suave predator, the one that drew
Speaker 3: women to him. He was actually repelling women. He had
Speaker 3: these vibes coming out of him. These people said his
Speaker 3: eyes were strange. He couldn't get people to dance with
Speaker 3: him at the disco charades because of how weird he was.
Speaker 3: Sometimes he was physically dirty and unkempt. He was just
Speaker 3: he was disintegrating as a killer. But when it came
Speaker 3: to the murders at Kyle Omega, I say in the book,
Speaker 3: in my first book, that he couldn't get the conscious
Speaker 3: women at the Disco Tech right across the street to
Speaker 3: follow him to their dead so he went in at
Speaker 3: back backed the unconscious women at Kyle Omega, and that's
Speaker 3: where he killed Lisa Levi and Margaret Moment. But what
Speaker 3: was different about these murders is it was a frenzy.
Speaker 3: He had taken these logs and beaten them broken, and
Speaker 3: he broke the jaws of two other women who lived,
Speaker 3: seriously injured them. And it was an absolute frenzy. Was
Speaker 3: nothing like these other murders, no planning, no wanting to
Speaker 3: take away, to take his time, and in an annalystic frenzy,
Speaker 3: he even bit the butt of one of the girls,
Speaker 3: one of the dead girls, I think it was the
Speaker 3: Leievy girl. And then you know they would use that
Speaker 3: against him. As and that was just an animalistic thing
Speaker 3: he had. He didn't think that out. But he had
Speaker 3: these bad teeth. They were very easy to duplicate. You know,
Speaker 3: you can look at his teeth. It's not like they
Speaker 3: were perfect. You got the perfect teeth. His teeth were
Speaker 3: really screwed up in ways that were very I mean
Speaker 3: they had a pattern to him, but very very odd,
Speaker 3: very animalistic, a frenzy. Now what's interesting is you would
Speaker 3: think after he left Kyle Omega that night, which was,
Speaker 3: as I recall, close to three am, he'd go home. No,
Speaker 3: he wasn't satiated at all. He walks a few more
Speaker 3: blocks to Dunwoody. The place has gone now, but I've
Speaker 3: been on Dunwoody and there was a duplex, and I think,
Speaker 3: no doubt he had probably spied on this woman before.
Speaker 3: But Cheryl Thomas was was that was her place, and
Speaker 3: next next to her it's it looks like one alse
Speaker 3: but next to her Debbie Ciccarelli. And what Bundy did
Speaker 3: was he got through a window and came through and
Speaker 3: he attacked her. What Ciccarelli heard somebody stomping around in there,
Speaker 3: her crying, heard like moaning. So she starts calling out
Speaker 3: to her, pounding on the wall, uh you know, making
Speaker 3: a racket, calling her phone well Bundy. He had every
Speaker 3: intention of strangling her from behind while he had intercourse
Speaker 3: with her, which was a pretty normal m for him,
Speaker 3: and murdering her while he's having sex with her, but
Speaker 3: he couldn't do that. This Debbie Ciccarelli was making too
Speaker 3: much noise, so he masturbated and left uh seamen on
Speaker 3: the bed after he had beaten her to a faulp Well,
Speaker 3: I forgot this. He carried the same log from Kyle
Speaker 3: Omega the Dunwoody apartment and an Asian fella named Sagoon
Speaker 3: happened to see him walking trying to conceal something, and
Speaker 3: he was really drawing attention to himself, and Sagoon slowed
Speaker 3: down and looked at him how he was dressed, saw
Speaker 3: him trying to conceal something that was a log, and
Speaker 3: he used that log and beat her with it. But
Speaker 3: then he couldn't kill her, and he goes back out
Speaker 3: the window from which he came from. You know that
Speaker 3: that's how he got in. But Debbie absolutely saved her
Speaker 3: life because without all that going on, and you know,
Speaker 3: she called the police too, and the police were got
Speaker 3: ready to bust down the door, and she said, wait,
Speaker 3: I've got a key to her apartment, and so she
Speaker 3: let them in. And in the in my first book,
Speaker 3: I've got all the testimonies from the cops that showed
Speaker 3: up there and everything, and she was severe injured, but
Speaker 3: she lived. But she you know, all of these women,
Speaker 3: I mean some of these women sustained injuries that they
Speaker 3: never did get over, hearing loss, balanced problems and various
Speaker 3: things like that, but they lived. But you know from
Speaker 3: that that I guess satiated that after you know, two
Speaker 3: different attacks, he goes on back to his his you know,
Speaker 3: rooming house and again as the college district is, i
Speaker 3: mean kids her up. There's a lot of people up
Speaker 3: in his house, and he's he's so changed that a
Speaker 3: couple people, Henry Palombo and another person say something to
Speaker 3: him as he's passing them to go into their house.
Speaker 3: Bundy doesn't even respond, which is very unbundy like, because
Speaker 3: Bundy could pull on the charm. But Bundy's a very
Speaker 3: very changed killer and a changed man. And then you've
Speaker 3: got the same kind of bizarre stuff that happens with
Speaker 3: his last murder in Lake City, with the you know,
Speaker 3: you know, the murder of Kimberly Leech. So he's a
Speaker 3: different kind of killer. He was having his own kind
Speaker 3: of internal, you know, meltdown. He was just not the
Speaker 3: same killer that he was back in nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 3: seventy five in the Northwest and even in Utah and Colorado.
Speaker 2: What was different the most different about the last murder
Speaker 2: of Kimberly Leech. And there is a little bit of
Speaker 2: you do talk about the controversy or the disagreement you
Speaker 2: have on with other people about where she was actually murdered.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good thing to bring up. I had
Speaker 3: a couple of people, I had several people contact me
Speaker 3: and when I was writing you know, the Bunde Murders. Look,
Speaker 3: I looked. I had all the case files. So they
Speaker 3: weren't sure exactly where she was murdered is I mean,
Speaker 3: they know where she was found, they don't know whether
Speaker 3: she was actually murdered under that hog little hog share
Speaker 3: or maybe the van. I mean they weren't sure. Now
Speaker 3: I knew there was some blood in the van, I
Speaker 3: didn't think there was enough at least on the record
Speaker 3: that you could say she was murdered there, But I
Speaker 3: remember I came to determine the determination of writing the
Speaker 3: book that it's kind of like, I'm not sure, but
Speaker 3: I'm going to lean this way. She was killed in
Speaker 3: the hogshed. When they found her body, she was you
Speaker 3: could tell that she was placed a certain way that
Speaker 3: the medical examiner thought that Bundy was inside the hogshead
Speaker 3: with her having sex, and that's where he ultimately cover
Speaker 3: her throat with that knife. Now he made fantecks with
Speaker 3: her in the van too and began to cover her
Speaker 3: there as well. I don't know, but there is some
Speaker 3: blood there, so that that wouldn't surprise me. So these
Speaker 3: people are contacting me, and I'm thinking, well, you know,
Speaker 3: maybe they found something that I don't know, and that's
Speaker 3: the way it is. I mean, I don't care how
Speaker 3: it is. I'd rather know the truth and if it
Speaker 3: changes and it's not there, I'd like to know it.
Speaker 3: But then when I mean, you know, because you don't know,
Speaker 3: they could have found somebody that might have determined it.
Speaker 3: But I thought, until I see something, I'm not going
Speaker 3: to just change my opinion of what I wrote the
Speaker 3: first time. So when I was doing the getting all
Speaker 3: these case files out, again, and doing all this, I
Speaker 3: ran into stuff from both the medical examiner examiner and
Speaker 3: from Bob Beckel, who prosecuted Bundy. They're giving testimony that's
Speaker 3: about two months after the van was located, so you
Speaker 3: know they've already gone through the van, you know, up
Speaker 3: and down one way and the other, and they know
Speaker 3: everything they need to know forensically about the van. But
Speaker 3: the medical examiner was leaning towards that she was killed
Speaker 3: right there, like under the hog shed, and Deckel says
Speaker 3: at that point she said, well, we don't know. I mean,
Speaker 3: we've got some theories on it, but we don't know.
Speaker 3: So I thought, well, see, that's part of the reason
Speaker 3: why I came to that conclusion. So I say in
Speaker 3: the new book, The Bundy Theorist, it won't bother me
Speaker 3: at all if they discover something tomorrow that states she
Speaker 3: was categorically killed in the van. But who ever seeing
Speaker 3: that now, I don't know. I mean, I just am
Speaker 3: looking at the evidence I had, and so I'm just
Speaker 3: not convinced it would take something more than what I've
Speaker 3: heard to convince me and to change my opinion. So
Speaker 3: I did bring that out, and I also brought out
Speaker 3: if you'll notice there was I'm not going to say
Speaker 3: who it is. He knows who who he is, but
Speaker 3: did you like the department. I talked about this that
Speaker 3: occasionally people will talk about me making stuff up for
Speaker 3: the book and adding stuff to it, and I say,
Speaker 3: they're always wrong. They just usually don't know the case
Speaker 3: as well as I do because of all the search
Speaker 3: I've done. I had one person who was contacting me
Speaker 3: who was working on a Bundie project, and there was
Speaker 3: a thing where, you know, I say in one passage
Speaker 3: when Bundy contacted Liz within about forty five minutes of
Speaker 3: abducting Debbie Kant, so she's not dead yet, but she's
Speaker 3: probably unconscious in his car. I said, he did that
Speaker 3: to step back from the crevass of insanity, okay, and
Speaker 3: because of something that she had said in the case
Speaker 3: file about that, And so this person took issue with that,
Speaker 3: and this person told them it was only about the
Speaker 3: alibis well in the alibi could be part of it,
Speaker 3: but it's certainly not going to be the main thing.
Speaker 3: It's going to be this. But I couldn't remember we're
Speaker 3: in the case file where I got that from. So
Speaker 3: I answered it with something else that would also prove
Speaker 3: my point, but not quite as well as wherever the
Speaker 3: case bot. So when I'm doing this book, I run
Speaker 3: into it and I find it. Okay, I find it.
Speaker 3: And so that's basically what Liz said to Bundy. Is
Speaker 3: this the reason why you do it? Like you know?
Speaker 3: And yeah, he all but agreed with her. But this
Speaker 3: person had said that I make I say his word,
Speaker 3: not not. He said, you know that I make shit
Speaker 3: up as I go along. Well, I don't never do that.
Speaker 3: I've never done that. And at those times when I
Speaker 3: do speculate, I make sure I know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: Just like when I was writing about Lorraine Fargo meeting
Speaker 3: Kathy Parks on the campus of Oregon State University late
Speaker 3: at night, only thirty minutes before Kathy disappeared, and I
Speaker 3: stay in the Bundy merse without ever having talked to
Speaker 3: Lorraine that I said, you know, Bundy, who want you know?
Speaker 3: Was hunting libraries And it says in the record that
Speaker 3: Lorraine had come from the library. Maybe Bundy was originally
Speaker 3: following her, we don't know. And I said, also, there's
Speaker 3: a letter that that that that uh, that Kathy Parks
Speaker 3: mailed to her boyfriend which has a postmark day of
Speaker 3: May seventh, and this is May sixth, on the night
Speaker 3: that she that she disappeared. I said, I don't know,
Speaker 3: but it may be that that was mailed at the
Speaker 3: at the same time post at the same time, maybe
Speaker 3: like you know, right then, I mean that night or however,
Speaker 3: however I put it in in The Bundy Meurs. But
Speaker 3: those are speculations based on kind of you know, what
Speaker 3: I know about Bundy and things like that and how
Speaker 3: things work, and maybe she mailed thing. So I thought, well,
Speaker 3: that's the speculation. Turns out Fargo contacted me within a
Speaker 3: few months after I book The Bunny Meurs was published,
Speaker 3: and she and I had many talks and she said, yeah, well,
Speaker 3: somebody was following me in the library and this is
Speaker 3: all in the Trail of Dead Bundy. And she said,
Speaker 3: he kept, you know, he kept bothering me, sit beside me,
Speaker 3: and when I left the library, he trailed me out, okay,
Speaker 3: and she's tried to avoid him. That was probably Bundy.
Speaker 3: And when we talked about the letter, because they stood
Speaker 3: like fifty feet across a street from the Memorial Union
Speaker 3: Commons where Kathy went in, they were right there on
Speaker 3: the the other side of the little side street. When
Speaker 3: we talked about the letter, she said, oh yeah, she
Speaker 3: had that letter in her hand. And so when we
Speaker 3: said goodbye, I watched her walk across the street, puts
Speaker 3: in the mailbox and go into the Memorial Union Commons.
Speaker 3: So I speculate on something, I'm going to do it
Speaker 3: for a reason of prompt and I when people have
Speaker 3: said that about me. I remember I mentioned in the
Speaker 3: preface of of of the Bundy murders, I said, when
Speaker 3: I do speculators, so it'll be based on things that
Speaker 3: Bundy has said in the third person of what things,
Speaker 3: how he might have felt, how this person felt, or
Speaker 3: what this person did. So that's the thing about when
Speaker 3: you're writing nonfiction, you really, really, really really got to
Speaker 3: know yourself. You've got to know your case file. And
Speaker 3: this person that you know was trying to rick me
Speaker 3: over the coals. I plat told this individual, you don't
Speaker 3: there's a lot about this case you don't know, and
Speaker 3: that's a fact. So but in any event, but yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's interesting. So I do put a couple of
Speaker 3: those things in there to kind of clear the record.
Speaker 3: I also put in there a couple of places where
Speaker 3: I made like minor mistakes, like the girl that that
Speaker 3: the the girl that the kid that he killed. He
Speaker 3: picked up the idol hitchhiker for some reason, I had
Speaker 3: said that Bundy had said she probably came from like Wyoming,
Speaker 3: but it's really Montana. I don't know how I got
Speaker 3: that messed up. But you know it was just like
Speaker 3: a little couple of me, you know, corrections I make.
Speaker 3: And that's that's good to do. You see something tiny
Speaker 3: that you messed up, if you have the chance to
Speaker 3: correct it, do so. But I do go into a
Speaker 3: couple of things that had been brought to me that
Speaker 3: I knew I was right about, and so I did
Speaker 3: comment on those in the Bundy Secrets, because then it'll
Speaker 3: stand as a record. And it's all through.
Speaker 2: Now one of the most fascinating parts, and we've only
Speaker 2: got a few minutes left. I just wanted to this
Speaker 2: is some profound stuff in Bob Detective Keppel and Liz
Speaker 2: Klopfer again. Yes, Bundy calls her from prison and so
Speaker 2: he talks about she's they're having a conversation. He says,
Speaker 2: are you telling me you are sick? She said, And
Speaker 2: so he said, why do you want to talk about
Speaker 2: how I hurt you live. So now in this you
Speaker 2: have some incredible stuff that he talks about, his desires,
Speaker 2: his need to kill, tell us about the four weeks
Speaker 2: let you go tonight.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a very interesting thing. He basically, I mean
Speaker 3: you remember the Ted is so guarded that he doesn't
Speaker 3: want to talk much about anything like that. But he
Speaker 3: talks about his sickness and she said something along the lines,
Speaker 3: are you talking about you know, like what happened to
Speaker 3: Kyle Mega And he said, look, I don't want to
Speaker 3: talk about it. But he talked about how this got
Speaker 3: a hold of him and how he tried to stop
Speaker 3: and tried to break it and he just couldn't. So
Speaker 3: he even though he was being guarded, even with Liz,
Speaker 3: at that moment, he's basically confessing. He's basically confessing that yes,
Speaker 3: all this is true, and you know it's just he's
Speaker 3: just saying, yeah, that's true, but he doesn't want to
Speaker 3: come out and say it. It kind of reminds me
Speaker 3: of when Bob Keppel. He's confessing to Bob Keppel about
Speaker 3: the George Nhawkins murder and he is talking about it,
Speaker 3: but then he becomes uncomfortable when Keppel asks him, well,
Speaker 3: what did you do? You stayed with her all night,
Speaker 3: so what did you do with her? Say, from the
Speaker 3: hours of one am to five am when you left?
Speaker 3: He said, well, you know, I'll have to get back
Speaker 3: to you on that or something like that. He became uncomfortable.
Speaker 3: Of course, what he was doing during that time was
Speaker 3: necrophilia and severing her head and whatever diabolical things he
Speaker 3: was doing. But when it came to the mechanics of
Speaker 3: the abduction, very forthright, and what he did miss indeed.
Speaker 3: But when it came to the diabolical things sometimes that
Speaker 3: he did, he would want to, you know, stay away
Speaker 3: from those, and he wouldn't lie. He would just say, well,
Speaker 3: maybe I can talk about that later. I can't do
Speaker 3: it now. And so yeah, very eye Opening's that conversation
Speaker 3: with with with Live where he's basically confessing to her
Speaker 3: and calls himself sick, a sickness, and it's about the
Speaker 3: close he could come to admitting that to her.
Speaker 2: What we've also what you've also included, and again we
Speaker 2: just don't have time to go through it all. But
Speaker 2: for those people that are going to go out and
Speaker 2: buy this book, you talk about the actual two hours
Speaker 2: before he's executed, there's an interview with authorities, so we
Speaker 2: won't go into that, but that's just part of what
Speaker 2: is included in this incredible book, The Bundy Secrets. Just
Speaker 2: on the eve of his execution, he has more to say.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you Kevin for coming on and
Speaker 2: talking about the Bundee Secrets. For those people that might
Speaker 2: want to do. You have a Facebook page for this website,
Speaker 2: tell us a little bit more about Wildboat Press on
Speaker 2: where people might find out more information about this and
Speaker 2: the other two books in the trilogy.
Speaker 3: Well, I have a regular Facebook page, Kevin M. Sullivan.
Speaker 3: I have an author page Kevin M. Sullivan, so you
Speaker 3: can track me down there, but you can always get
Speaker 3: hold of me at Wild Boot Press. And I'm one
Speaker 3: of the authors at Wildlooe Press and I write True
Speaker 3: Crown Blogs. They also have links to all of my books,
Speaker 3: not just the ones that they published, but the ones
Speaker 3: that other publishers have published, and they have links from
Speaker 3: there to Amazon, And like I say, I have people
Speaker 3: that comment and I can get back with them that way.
Speaker 3: So yeah, the best I can do is to Wild
Speaker 3: Blue Press or Facebook.
Speaker 2: I want to thank you very much. Kevin for coming
Speaker 2: on and talking about the bun hidden in the finals,
Speaker 2: so America's worst serial killer. Thank you very much, Kevin,
Speaker 2: it's always a pleasure. I hope to talk to you
Speaker 2: again soon.
Speaker 3: Thanks Dan, we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2: Bye bye, okay, good night, good night
Speaker 3: Well glass id