WEBVTT 1 00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:19.719 Welcome to destiny. Now here's your host. Cliff dunning Well. 2 00:00:19.879 --> 00:00:26.640 Psilocybin can be contrasted to any compound. It's different from 3 00:00:26.679 --> 00:00:32.159 all other compounds, including all other psychedelics. Psilocybin is very 4 00:00:32.359 --> 00:00:37.079 interesting and should be studied more deeply because it does 5 00:00:37.159 --> 00:00:42.719 things that are quite miraculous, that are very close to 6 00:00:42.759 --> 00:00:48.640 the surface, in other words, ordinary scientific. Most methods of 7 00:00:48.719 --> 00:00:51.240 research I think could get at. 8 00:00:51.159 --> 00:00:51.880 Some of this. 9 00:00:53.560 --> 00:00:58.000 The first thing that is astonishing about psilocybin is that 10 00:00:58.439 --> 00:01:05.959 of all the psychoedel elicks, well yes, of all the psychedelics, 11 00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:09.480 with the possible exception of DMT, which is a whole 12 00:01:09.560 --> 00:01:17.000 special case, psilocybin is the most easily capable of generating visions, 13 00:01:18.040 --> 00:01:22.000 and that fascinated me. I took a lot of LSD, 14 00:01:22.200 --> 00:01:25.439 and I was really hyped for LSD I had read 15 00:01:25.519 --> 00:01:28.959 I was waiting. I was fully informed and prepared by 16 00:01:29.000 --> 00:01:31.319 the time I got to my first LSD trip, and 17 00:01:31.400 --> 00:01:35.040 I was somewhat puzzled by it. It did completely take 18 00:01:35.120 --> 00:01:40.319 me apart, and I thought many strange things and had 19 00:01:40.480 --> 00:01:43.719 many insights. But I had thought that it would be 20 00:01:43.879 --> 00:01:50.200 like the Havelock Ellis description the ruined cities dripping with jewels, 21 00:01:50.519 --> 00:01:54.959 the vast jungles, the strange machinery. 22 00:01:54.640 --> 00:01:56.319 All that, uh uh. 23 00:01:56.680 --> 00:02:00.959 Later I discovered that by smoking good bombay black hash 24 00:02:01.040 --> 00:02:05.640 on LSD, you can sort of cloax that into existence. 25 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:12.919 But an easier thing is pilocybin. Psilocybin just causes you 26 00:02:13.199 --> 00:02:16.240 to hallucinate furiously. 27 00:02:19.719 --> 00:02:24.560 That's Terence McKenna and a talk on microdosing psilocybin, which 28 00:02:24.599 --> 00:02:29.960 are mushrooms, and that's now thirty years old, that presentation. 29 00:02:30.080 --> 00:02:34.439 So it's been in our minds to microdose psychedelics, to 30 00:02:35.240 --> 00:02:40.599 consider them as a healing agent, a plant medicine, as 31 00:02:40.599 --> 00:02:44.639 we've discussed before. And I actually had the great honor 32 00:02:44.639 --> 00:02:48.599 of traveling with Terrence mckinna when we were doing the 33 00:02:49.680 --> 00:02:52.840 Whole Life Expo, which was based in San Francisco, and 34 00:02:52.960 --> 00:02:59.360 Terry did Austin, Atlanta, Georgia, Orlando, Toronto. I think we 35 00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:02.479 did a seven city tour with him, and at that time, 36 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:06.000 people were just taking mushrooms by the hands full, and 37 00:03:06.639 --> 00:03:10.120 people were overdosing and it wasn't really well thought out. 38 00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:15.080 And by the way, if you haven't done mushrooms, if 39 00:03:15.080 --> 00:03:19.159 you haven't, if you're thinking about doing psychedelics. Check out 40 00:03:19.319 --> 00:03:22.479 Terrence McKenna's book. It's called Food of the Gods. He's 41 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:26.560 also got another book called The Hallucinogens, and his best 42 00:03:26.560 --> 00:03:30.639 known book is called Psilocybin. That's the title, which is 43 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:36.439 the Mushrooms. And these are all important pieces of literature 44 00:03:36.919 --> 00:03:39.879 as we begin looking at microdosing. Hey, this is Clip 45 00:03:39.879 --> 00:03:42.599 your host of destiny. I hope you're doing well today. 46 00:03:43.000 --> 00:03:45.479 We have a special program. We have up to this 47 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:51.280 point talked about microdosing, but haven't really got into the protocols. 48 00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:57.280 How to choose the proper psychedelic for you, what to 49 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:01.879 do if it's a first time event, how to prepare body, 50 00:04:01.879 --> 00:04:04.960 mind and spirit, because your spirit is very much attached 51 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:09.479 to working with plant medicines. And we have an expert 52 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:12.560 on the program today who's going to show us just 53 00:04:12.719 --> 00:04:18.800 how to go about working with plant medicines in a 54 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:24.199 beneficial factor. Now here in Northern California, and I talked 55 00:04:24.199 --> 00:04:25.920 about this over I think it's been a couple of 56 00:04:25.959 --> 00:04:29.800 years now. There are meetup groups and if you're not 57 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:32.879 familiar with meetup, go check it out. Type and meetup 58 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:37.639 on your search Internet search engine, and you'll see that 59 00:04:37.720 --> 00:04:41.240 these are groups that are educating people on how to 60 00:04:41.560 --> 00:04:47.800 use psychedelics, and then they're bigger issues is where to 61 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:55.759 get quality psychedelics, and this is LSD, psilocybin, which is mushrooms, DMT, 62 00:04:56.160 --> 00:04:59.959 and ketamine. Now, if you've been reading the paper recent 63 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.720 you'll know that Elon Musk overdose. Overdid it a little 64 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:09.399 bit with kennemine, and apparently he was taking large amounts 65 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:14.120 of it. He was working, poor guy, and you gotta 66 00:05:14.120 --> 00:05:15.800 really be careful with it. But today we're going to 67 00:05:15.920 --> 00:05:21.360 learn not only the properties of these psychedelics, but how 68 00:05:21.399 --> 00:05:28.680 to use them in micro infintestent levels of dosages so 69 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:33.000 that you're affected, but not just affected. You're able to 70 00:05:33.079 --> 00:05:39.160 function completely. You're not spacing out, you're not passing out. 71 00:05:39.360 --> 00:05:42.959 You're functioning on a level that allows you to be 72 00:05:43.120 --> 00:05:46.439 very very creative that it allows you to be much 73 00:05:46.480 --> 00:05:51.519 more determined in what you're doing. And this is what 74 00:05:51.560 --> 00:05:57.120 I love about today's program. We use intention to bring 75 00:05:57.279 --> 00:06:01.240 forth our desired results. And I've been talking about intention 76 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:03.920 for a while. I wrote a book a few years 77 00:06:03.920 --> 00:06:08.480 ago called Cannabis and Sexual Ecstasy for Men, and the 78 00:06:08.519 --> 00:06:12.360 focus on that was not only sexual ecstasy, but creativity 79 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:18.759 and how to bring in the intuitive and the automatic software, 80 00:06:18.759 --> 00:06:22.560 which is what we call the intention. So you intend 81 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:27.959 on something that's the software going into the body, the mind, 82 00:06:28.199 --> 00:06:31.399 and the spirit, which is the hardware. And when you 83 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:35.279 intend on something to happen, it happens. The body is 84 00:06:35.360 --> 00:06:38.519 like following that path. And the reason we use it 85 00:06:38.560 --> 00:06:43.360 when we're using any type of psychedelic or cannabis or 86 00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:50.720 psychedelics is when you intend at the beginning of your journey, 87 00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.079 you're sitting in motion your desire to have a positive event, 88 00:06:55.800 --> 00:07:00.800 to have a healing event, and to make sure that 89 00:07:01.560 --> 00:07:05.240 all systems are go. So in other words, it's my 90 00:07:05.399 --> 00:07:07.720 belief and a lot of other people that we have 91 00:07:07.759 --> 00:07:10.480 on the show that when you take a psychedelic or 92 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:18.279 cannabis there are levels of preparations, there's levels of oversight, 93 00:07:18.959 --> 00:07:22.360 and what I mean that is they're unseen forces or 94 00:07:22.439 --> 00:07:27.279 unseen entities. There are are higher wisdom and our higher 95 00:07:27.279 --> 00:07:32.279 self that are all engaged in the experience. And so 96 00:07:32.399 --> 00:07:39.399 you're intending or I should say, by intending all these entities, 97 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:44.959 these energetics are placed on notice that you want to 98 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:48.759 have support, that you want to be cared for, that 99 00:07:48.800 --> 00:07:53.680 you would like to have the ultimate experience of psychedelics, 100 00:07:54.000 --> 00:07:58.160 of cannabis or anything else that is going to shift 101 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:04.360 your awareness. So intention and this wasn't even used twenty 102 00:08:04.399 --> 00:08:08.160 thirty years ago. It's just really come on board in 103 00:08:08.199 --> 00:08:16.199 the last i'd say last decade where intention is critical 104 00:08:16.240 --> 00:08:20.800 factor in any type of psychedelic experience, any type of 105 00:08:21.800 --> 00:08:33.639 altered perception, altered senses, so that the ultimate result is positive. Now, 106 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:36.840 my guest today is Paul Austen, and he is the 107 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:42.000 founder of Third Wave, which is an educational institution. And 108 00:08:42.240 --> 00:08:45.159 I have not found anyone quite like him who speaks 109 00:08:45.759 --> 00:08:50.840 to working with psychedelics on a microdose level. And he 110 00:08:51.000 --> 00:08:54.440 is an expert, and you'll hear soon you'll quickly learn why. 111 00:08:55.320 --> 00:09:00.240 I can only recommend his program to the point where 112 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:05.200 I'm gonna get his book and consider trying some of 113 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:09.440 this thing, you know, perhaps trying some of these protocols. 114 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:14.320 So today's program is the art of microdosing psychedelics, and 115 00:09:14.399 --> 00:09:20.759 my guest is Paul F. Austen. Earth Ancients does a 116 00:09:20.840 --> 00:09:23.360 number of tours every year, and it's really important to 117 00:09:23.360 --> 00:09:26.039 have a really good camera. I just found the insta 118 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:29.279 three sixty x five recently, and I gotta tell you 119 00:09:29.440 --> 00:09:34.279 it is an outstanding camera. It is an artificial intelligence camera, 120 00:09:34.320 --> 00:09:37.120 which means that it automatically can adjust to the tones 121 00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.840 either day or evening. It has a huge battery, one 122 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:44.799 of the best image quality I've ever seen. And you 123 00:09:44.840 --> 00:09:46.879 can edit on the fly. I mean you quick edit 124 00:09:46.919 --> 00:09:49.759 mode where you can actually edit while you're standing there. 125 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:53.200 And for a limited time, they'll throw in a selfie 126 00:09:53.200 --> 00:09:56.039 stick if you're one of the first thirty people who 127 00:09:56.320 --> 00:10:01.080 purchase the standard package. Go to store dot three sixty 128 00:10:01.200 --> 00:10:05.360 dot com and punch in Ancients and you'll qualify for 129 00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:08.480 that that selfie stick, which is worth twenty five bucks. Again, 130 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:12.720 it's store dot Insta three sixty dot com. Use the 131 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:15.480 word Ancients and you'll get that deal. This is an 132 00:10:15.480 --> 00:10:18.519 outstanding camera. Hold it in the palm of your hand. 133 00:10:18.559 --> 00:10:22.200 It's waterproof and it is a great camera. Check it 134 00:10:22.200 --> 00:11:00.879 out the Insta three sixty x five. We've been talking 135 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:04.159 about micro DOSI now for almost four or five years. 136 00:11:04.200 --> 00:11:07.679 We've had people like Dennis McKinnon on the program. Graham 137 00:11:07.720 --> 00:11:10.720 Hancock paid us a visit and we were talking about 138 00:11:10.759 --> 00:11:14.639 his book on Journey, A Journey without Acid in Ayahuasca 139 00:11:14.679 --> 00:11:18.000 and DMT, and today I'm really happy to say I 140 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:24.360 have somebody who's developed a protocol for using psychedelics in 141 00:11:24.399 --> 00:11:27.279 your daily life, and his name is Paul Austin. Let 142 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:28.919 me tell you a little bit about Paul. He is 143 00:11:29.000 --> 00:11:35.039 an entrepreneur, thought leader, and I caught a great video. 144 00:11:35.279 --> 00:11:38.720 I was on YouTube yesterday and this was a talk 145 00:11:38.799 --> 00:11:42.240 he gave in I think it was twenty seventeen about 146 00:11:42.279 --> 00:11:48.039 his work in as a professional and a protocol developer 147 00:11:48.080 --> 00:11:52.240 of psychedelics, and he also found an organization called third Wave. 148 00:11:52.519 --> 00:11:55.799 It was really a cool video because I don't think 149 00:11:55.799 --> 00:11:59.600 anyone is doing what Paul is doing, which is actively 150 00:11:59.679 --> 00:12:05.120 working with team development, creating a protocol, but also creating 151 00:12:05.159 --> 00:12:10.120 a business around microdosing. So hey, Paul, welcome to Destiny. 152 00:12:10.200 --> 00:12:11.559 Great to have you on the program. 153 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:14.200 Great to be here, Cliff, Thanks for making the space 154 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:20.039 in the time. I'm happy to dive into everything microdocing, protocols, yeah, 155 00:12:20.120 --> 00:12:23.240 you know, mood, energy, leadership, all the stuff. It'll be 156 00:12:23.279 --> 00:12:24.399 a fun conversation today. 157 00:12:24.879 --> 00:12:27.720 I got to ask you, you know, I'm a little 158 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:31.080 older than you. I mean, I remember people in junior 159 00:12:31.159 --> 00:12:34.840 high starting to drop acid LSD in the early days. 160 00:12:34.840 --> 00:12:36.399 You know, it was a tab. It was a drop 161 00:12:36.480 --> 00:12:38.320 put on a piece of candy or something like that, 162 00:12:39.240 --> 00:12:41.559 and I had friends. I never did it. I did 163 00:12:41.720 --> 00:12:45.919 a really strong cannabis back then, and now today's cannabis 164 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:51.120 is even stronger. But how did you jump from creating 165 00:12:51.159 --> 00:12:55.840 an application for psychedelics from just taking it just I 166 00:12:55.840 --> 00:12:58.360 mean getting high and going, hey, this feels great and 167 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:00.919 I'm happy where I'm at with this. I mean that 168 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:03.399 you're taking a big, big leap. 169 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.360 Big big leap. Yeah, quite the I think it's cool, 170 00:13:07.519 --> 00:13:08.639 a macro leap. 171 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:11.240 Not just not just a micro leap. 172 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:11.440 You know. 173 00:13:11.879 --> 00:13:14.000 My story starts in West Michigan. I grew up in 174 00:13:14.000 --> 00:13:17.960 Grand Rapids, which is kind of the second biggest city 175 00:13:17.960 --> 00:13:22.240 in Michigan. Midwest, traditional family, and so my parents are 176 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:28.519 very anti drug, you know. And a friend that introduced 177 00:13:28.519 --> 00:13:30.559 me to cannabis when I was sixteen then introduced me 178 00:13:30.600 --> 00:13:33.480 to LSD when I was nineteen, and so I had 179 00:13:33.559 --> 00:13:36.559 my first really profound experience is that higher doses, not 180 00:13:36.600 --> 00:13:39.639 microdoses with LSD. And because I was raised in a 181 00:13:39.639 --> 00:13:43.559 pretty religious, traditional family, there's a lot of sort of 182 00:13:43.559 --> 00:13:45.840 guilt and shame that I had to work through and release, 183 00:13:46.320 --> 00:13:48.960 you know, just from being raised in that environment, and 184 00:13:49.000 --> 00:13:52.039 so one of the key lessons or downloads from those 185 00:13:52.080 --> 00:13:55.879 early experiences was, you know, life is meant to be created. 186 00:13:56.360 --> 00:13:59.039 You are not beholden to any sort of stories that 187 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.320 have come before. You free to do as you wish, 188 00:14:01.360 --> 00:14:05.480 So like, go go on a journey, right, go explore. 189 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:07.080 And so at the age of twenty one, I moved 190 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:09.799 to Turkey, where I taught English for a year. And 191 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:12.759 while teaching English, I started to study a lot about 192 00:14:12.799 --> 00:14:15.799 how I could work online and you know, travel anywhere 193 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.200 I wanted, And so I did that for a few 194 00:14:18.240 --> 00:14:22.200 years in Thailand and Portugal and Mexico. In twenty fifteen, 195 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:24.399 I was living in Budapest, about a decade ago now, 196 00:14:25.080 --> 00:14:28.440 and just more people were starting to talk about psychedelics 197 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:31.919 Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan. There was more clinical research coming 198 00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:33.039 out about its benefits. 199 00:14:33.080 --> 00:14:34.279 Cannabis was also. 200 00:14:34.639 --> 00:14:37.240 At this point in time becoming more widely accepted, and 201 00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:40.159 so I sort of, as a young buddy and entrepreneur, 202 00:14:40.240 --> 00:14:42.519 I sort of saw the writing on the wall, and 203 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:46.120 I made, you know, the assumption that psychedelics would sort 204 00:14:46.159 --> 00:14:48.279 of follow the path of cannabis in terms of becoming 205 00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:51.919 legalized and available and more accept it. And so in 206 00:14:52.559 --> 00:14:55.559 twenty fifteen I started a platform and a website because 207 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:00.200 you know, I just genuinely wanted to help people. The 208 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:04.320 intentional use of psychedelics had really benefited my own life, 209 00:15:04.799 --> 00:15:06.919 and I thought more and more people would become open 210 00:15:06.960 --> 00:15:09.159 and curious about this. And so when I started third 211 00:15:09.159 --> 00:15:12.840 Wave in twenty fifteen, I really focused on microdosing as 212 00:15:12.879 --> 00:15:15.120 the initial entry point, because a lot of people when 213 00:15:15.200 --> 00:15:19.080 they when they become curious about psychedelics or open to it, 214 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:21.080 the biggest fear is I'm going to have a bad trip, 215 00:15:21.120 --> 00:15:22.039 Like I'm going to take too much. 216 00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:23.480 I'm going to freak out and I'm going to. 217 00:15:23.480 --> 00:15:26.519 Be paranoid and anxiety and what if I jump out 218 00:15:26.519 --> 00:15:29.200 of a window or whatever. And so I said, just 219 00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:31.639 take you know, start low, ghost slow, take a really 220 00:15:31.679 --> 00:15:33.440 low dose, do it a couple times a week, see 221 00:15:33.440 --> 00:15:34.360 how you feel. 222 00:15:34.600 --> 00:15:35.559 And then go from there. 223 00:15:35.679 --> 00:15:37.840 And so over the last decade, I've just made that 224 00:15:38.679 --> 00:15:41.919 my full time profession, publishing Mastering Microdosing, the book that 225 00:15:42.799 --> 00:15:45.679 we'll talk about a little bit more. I started a 226 00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.840 retreat center in the Netherlands. We did legal psilocybin retreats, 227 00:15:48.879 --> 00:15:54.360 and now my main focuses. I trained practitioners, so coaches, doctors, therapists, 228 00:15:54.440 --> 00:15:55.799 if they want to get trained, and how they can 229 00:15:55.840 --> 00:15:58.320 work with psychedelics. We facilitate that as well. 230 00:15:58.840 --> 00:16:01.960 What were you person getting from it? I mean you're going, yeah, 231 00:16:01.960 --> 00:16:04.480 I want to try it, I want to trip And 232 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:11.480 but did you evolve your experiences to have intention for healing, 233 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:18.600 have intention for creativity, have intention for creating business platforms? Yeah? 234 00:16:18.600 --> 00:16:21.399 I would say my early work was a lot of exploration. 235 00:16:21.879 --> 00:16:24.200 It wasn't you know, they talk a lot about in 236 00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:28.039 the media now this therapeutic approach to psychedelics, which is 237 00:16:28.159 --> 00:16:30.080 you do a very high dose, you have an eyemask, 238 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:32.159 you have a playlist, you have a therapist or two 239 00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:33.360 where they're present with you. 240 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:34.559 I wasn't doing that. 241 00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:36.600 But I also wasn't just taking a bunch of LSD 242 00:16:36.679 --> 00:16:38.799 or mushrooms at a rave or a music festival. I 243 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:43.039 was doing it with a friend or two in the woods, 244 00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:48.200 usually outdoors. And so one of the big deep insights 245 00:16:48.240 --> 00:16:50.679 for me was how connected I felt. 246 00:16:50.399 --> 00:16:51.519 To the natural environment. 247 00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:54.600 Yeah, right, and how so much of great health is 248 00:16:54.679 --> 00:16:58.720 having that relationship with the natural environment. But on a 249 00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:01.519 very practical level, well around the same time I started 250 00:17:01.559 --> 00:17:04.799 to get into LSD, I also started to get into 251 00:17:04.839 --> 00:17:06.680 like personal development, and so I. 252 00:17:06.599 --> 00:17:07.640 Started to meditate. 253 00:17:07.880 --> 00:17:11.000 Like my early experiences with psychedelics were really influential and 254 00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:13.279 helping me to commit to a meditation practice. I became 255 00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.599 more mindful of the food that I ate. I became 256 00:17:16.119 --> 00:17:18.519 you know, more aware of how I showed up in relationships, 257 00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:20.920 in the way that I was treating people, and you know, 258 00:17:20.960 --> 00:17:22.759 how it could be a better friend or a better 259 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:25.240 you know, brother or son or whatever. 260 00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:25.599 That was. 261 00:17:25.640 --> 00:17:28.200 So it was really these in these early phases, it 262 00:17:28.279 --> 00:17:31.200 was just I was curious. I was interested in growing 263 00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:35.160 and developing. And then it wasn't until I was twenty four, 264 00:17:35.200 --> 00:17:38.480 when I had already some entrepreneurial experience that I thought, oh, 265 00:17:38.599 --> 00:17:41.880 this not only helps me myself to become a better human, 266 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.039 but in working with these, I also have more capacity 267 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.960 to be of service to life itself. And so that 268 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.119 was really the the i'd say intention behind Third Wave 269 00:17:53.160 --> 00:17:55.519 and everything that's come from that is you know, I 270 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:59.680 saw psychedelics as a tool that, if used skillfully, could 271 00:17:59.680 --> 00:18:03.799 really people sort of wake up, you know, And having 272 00:18:03.839 --> 00:18:08.440 grown up in a religious family, I was you know, talked, talked, 273 00:18:08.839 --> 00:18:12.759 talked to about God a lot, but I never experienced 274 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:16.480 this sort of you know, the experience of what it 275 00:18:16.519 --> 00:18:18.079 is to be connected to spirit or. 276 00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:19.599 God or the great unknown, or do. 277 00:18:19.640 --> 00:18:22.160 You have an experience where you called in the God 278 00:18:22.279 --> 00:18:25.319 forces and kind of sat there and oh, my God, 279 00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:28.880 there's a somebody's talking to me, the giant voice. 280 00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:32.759 Well, the way that I frame it is it's more 281 00:18:32.880 --> 00:18:36.119 like I see God in nature. That was for me 282 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:39.039 the big unlock, you know, where it was like the 283 00:18:39.119 --> 00:18:41.799 trees have a way of talking to us, the ocean 284 00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:43.759 and the water has a way of talking to us, 285 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.400 the rivers and the streams, and so it really opened 286 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:51.920 up that sort of awareness I've never I still haven't had. 287 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:53.720 You know, my name is Paul. I still haven't had 288 00:18:53.720 --> 00:18:55.759 the classic apostle. 289 00:18:55.279 --> 00:18:58.799 Paul experience where I'm blinded by the light and exactly 290 00:18:59.079 --> 00:19:00.960 I can't figure out where I'm going. But there was 291 00:19:01.000 --> 00:19:04.680 a deep sort of opening in my heart and my 292 00:19:04.759 --> 00:19:08.359 spirit and a deep love and reverence for nature that 293 00:19:08.400 --> 00:19:10.799 came from that, and so I've really been in service 294 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:13.079 to that ever since I've started this path. 295 00:19:13.400 --> 00:19:16.359 You have a podcast, and I've looked at some of 296 00:19:16.400 --> 00:19:19.839 your guests, and you have some Indigenous I don't know 297 00:19:19.839 --> 00:19:22.200 if they're elders or not, but you have a native perspective, 298 00:19:22.240 --> 00:19:26.039 do you have a sense of that connection? And there 299 00:19:26.279 --> 00:19:30.119 and then in the indigenous use of psychedelics. 300 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:32.240 This is it's interesting. 301 00:19:32.279 --> 00:19:35.000 I just interviewed someone for the podcast that's not published 302 00:19:35.079 --> 00:19:39.119 yet who recently published a book on shamanism called Shamanism 303 00:19:39.119 --> 00:19:42.279 a Timeless Religion, and he talks a lot about this 304 00:19:42.480 --> 00:19:47.079 archaeological evidence for psychedelic use, and a lot of the 305 00:19:47.200 --> 00:19:52.880 archaeological evidence or anthropological evidence is you know, in Mexico, 306 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:59.279 in Peru, Brazil, Colombia, with peyote, psilocybin, mushrooms, aahuasca and 307 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:02.720 something called yo bo which is a five E meo snuff. 308 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:06.880 And you know, part of what psychedelic work has really 309 00:20:06.880 --> 00:20:10.319 connected me to is sort of this this pre Christian 310 00:20:11.000 --> 00:20:13.839 way of being. So there was a fantastic book written 311 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.640 about four years ago called The Immortality Key by Brian 312 00:20:17.680 --> 00:20:22.559 muro Rescue, where he explores the sort of early or 313 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:25.880 sorry ancient Greek use of psychedelics where they drank something 314 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:30.920 called kaikon and how that may have inspired early Christianity. 315 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:33.640 And so I think a lot of my work has 316 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:36.799 been with indigenous elders, whether that's with ayahuascar or psilocybin 317 00:20:36.920 --> 00:20:40.039 or san Pedro is another cac die similar to peyote. 318 00:20:40.359 --> 00:20:42.200 But also a lot of my personal work has been 319 00:20:42.240 --> 00:20:44.759 sort of releasing the conditioning of a lot of the 320 00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.319 sort of Christian morality that we've been born into and 321 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.960 understanding what it was like to be you know, you know, 322 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:56.680 I kind of I've had past life experiences as a 323 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:01.720 sort of Celtic druid priest, which Merlin is sort of 324 00:21:01.759 --> 00:21:05.160 the archetypal representation of that. So some of this work 325 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:09.720 has brought me into those archetypes like who is I 326 00:21:09.759 --> 00:21:13.039 as a white person before Christianity? Or who were we 327 00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:16.599 as white people before Christianity? Because I think there's so 328 00:21:16.720 --> 00:21:20.000 much emphasis as there should be on what I would say, 329 00:21:20.039 --> 00:21:23.599 indigenous people in the Americas and their relationship to psychedelics, 330 00:21:23.640 --> 00:21:25.519 but I don't think we put enough emphasis on the 331 00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.559 fact that we, as a white people also have indigenous 332 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:33.839 lineages and we've been you know, because of Christianity in 333 00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.799 many ways, a lot of these what we're called the mysteries, 334 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:41.119 the ancient Greek and Roman mysteries, they were banned, and 335 00:21:41.160 --> 00:21:44.839 so we've been disconnected from that lineage for seventeen hundred years. 336 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:47.039 So I think that's part of the invitation now with 337 00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:52.079 the modern psychedelic renaissance, is how do we invite those philosophies, 338 00:21:52.079 --> 00:21:54.400 are those ways of being back into our day. 339 00:21:54.240 --> 00:21:58.160 To day Yeah, I hear you're saying about Merlin and 340 00:21:58.960 --> 00:22:05.000 kind of the white wave of early prehistory. I'm curious, though, 341 00:22:05.079 --> 00:22:08.519 do you have a sense now that you've been working 342 00:22:08.519 --> 00:22:11.400 with psychedelics that this is a tool that we should 343 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:14.359 be using to go to the next level of evolution. 344 00:22:15.720 --> 00:22:19.039 If you read Graham Hancock's book, he believes that psychedelics 345 00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:24.240 were used for brain enhancement as well as a tool 346 00:22:24.359 --> 00:22:30.440 for moving beyond current concepts and accepting and beginning to 347 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.480 use downloads of future concepts. 348 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:38.920 Well, it's one inquiry that I've had of late, is 349 00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:44.039 what does it say about reality when psychedelics, aliens, and 350 00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.680 artificial intelligence are sort of all converging at the same time. 351 00:22:48.720 --> 00:22:52.240 I even asked chat GPT about this and it said 352 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:54.400 something along the line, Yeah, it's it's something along the 353 00:22:54.400 --> 00:22:58.519 lines of like, we're clearly becoming much more open to 354 00:22:58.680 --> 00:23:01.480 possibilities that we previously. 355 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:03.559 Did not know were or were not aware of. 356 00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.519 So, you know, I do think there are a lot 357 00:23:06.599 --> 00:23:10.000 of people who are are struggling, right so with mental 358 00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:14.079 health PTSD, depression, addiction, anxiety, and I feel like the 359 00:23:14.119 --> 00:23:15.519 first step for a lot of people is how do 360 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.680 you just fill your own cup? You know, And psychedelics 361 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.079 have shown incredible clinical efficacy to heal PTSD, depression, addiction, 362 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:28.519 traumatic brain injury. There's even some really interesting clinical research 363 00:23:28.599 --> 00:23:32.920 that's showing how it can treat Parkinson's MS, Alzheimer's, right, 364 00:23:32.960 --> 00:23:36.119 these neurodegenerative diseases. So I think the first step for 365 00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:37.319 a lot of people is how do you fill your 366 00:23:37.359 --> 00:23:40.519 own cup? How do you sort of get back to baseline. 367 00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:43.519 I was fortunate enough to be, you know, even though 368 00:23:43.519 --> 00:23:45.960 I was raised in a pretty sheltered, traditional Christian home, 369 00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:49.880 I had a good upbringing, no no major big t traumas, 370 00:23:50.519 --> 00:23:53.880 and so immediately when I started my psychedelic use, these 371 00:23:54.000 --> 00:23:57.039 questions of what is the sort of exploration of what 372 00:23:57.079 --> 00:24:00.000 it means to be human really really started to come online. 373 00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:03.640 And you know, I do think that is the greatest 374 00:24:03.680 --> 00:24:06.359 offering with these substances. Even if you look at the 375 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:09.599 counterculture in the fifties and sixties and the use of LSD. 376 00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:12.920 A lot of the inquiry was around the overlap of 377 00:24:12.920 --> 00:24:16.759 psychedelics and self actualization. So Maslow had his sort of 378 00:24:16.839 --> 00:24:20.279 hierarchy of needs, and he has written if you kind 379 00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.559 of dig on the internet a little bit, he's written 380 00:24:22.559 --> 00:24:26.960 about how psychedelics helped to facilitate this state of self actualization, 381 00:24:27.119 --> 00:24:31.079 and he actually had something beyond that called self transcendence. 382 00:24:31.440 --> 00:24:33.640 And so I think part of the value of psychedelics 383 00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:36.119 is they allow us to see beyond sort of a 384 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:40.559 dualistic reality and worldview, and tapping into that sort of 385 00:24:40.599 --> 00:24:44.440 creative muse or creative spirit really allows us to have 386 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.319 a new lens and a new perspective on what it 387 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:51.880 means to be a human being at this point in time. 388 00:24:52.440 --> 00:24:55.200 And so I think part of the greatest potential or 389 00:24:55.240 --> 00:24:59.200 invitation with these substances is to reimagine the systems that 390 00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:04.799 we have not as I would say, extractive or short term, 391 00:25:05.400 --> 00:25:08.119 and we can start to actually look at how do 392 00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:12.880 we create systems that are regenerative and built for seven 393 00:25:13.039 --> 00:25:16.119 generations from now, not seven years from now. And I 394 00:25:16.119 --> 00:25:18.680 think that's for me, a big part of the Indigenous 395 00:25:18.680 --> 00:25:20.920 lineage and the Indigenous knowledge when you when you talk 396 00:25:20.960 --> 00:25:24.359 to indigenous elders who have worked with psychedelics or not, 397 00:25:24.599 --> 00:25:28.160 they always talk about how do we become great ancestors? 398 00:25:28.440 --> 00:25:31.079 And so I think that's a big question that psychedelics 399 00:25:31.480 --> 00:25:34.119 bring up for us, is what are both the practical 400 00:25:34.160 --> 00:25:36.279 but also spiritual things that we can do to be 401 00:25:36.440 --> 00:25:40.640