Speaker 1: Welcome to destiny. Now here's your host. Cliff dunning Well.
Speaker 2: Psilocybin can be contrasted to any compound. It's different from
Speaker 2: all other compounds, including all other psychedelics. Psilocybin is very
Speaker 2: interesting and should be studied more deeply because it does
Speaker 2: things that are quite miraculous, that are very close to
Speaker 2: the surface, in other words, ordinary scientific. Most methods of
Speaker 2: research I think could get at.
Speaker 1: Some of this.
Speaker 2: The first thing that is astonishing about psilocybin is that
Speaker 2: of all the psychoedel elicks, well yes, of all the psychedelics,
Speaker 2: with the possible exception of DMT, which is a whole
Speaker 2: special case, psilocybin is the most easily capable of generating visions,
Speaker 2: and that fascinated me. I took a lot of LSD,
Speaker 2: and I was really hyped for LSD I had read
Speaker 2: I was waiting. I was fully informed and prepared by
Speaker 2: the time I got to my first LSD trip, and
Speaker 2: I was somewhat puzzled by it. It did completely take
Speaker 2: me apart, and I thought many strange things and had
Speaker 2: many insights. But I had thought that it would be
Speaker 2: like the Havelock Ellis description the ruined cities dripping with jewels,
Speaker 2: the vast jungles, the strange machinery.
Speaker 1: All that, uh uh.
Speaker 2: Later I discovered that by smoking good bombay black hash
Speaker 2: on LSD, you can sort of cloax that into existence.
Speaker 2: But an easier thing is pilocybin. Psilocybin just causes you
Speaker 2: to hallucinate furiously.
Speaker 3: That's Terence McKenna and a talk on microdosing psilocybin, which
Speaker 3: are mushrooms, and that's now thirty years old, that presentation.
Speaker 3: So it's been in our minds to microdose psychedelics, to
Speaker 3: consider them as a healing agent, a plant medicine, as
Speaker 3: we've discussed before. And I actually had the great honor
Speaker 3: of traveling with Terrence mckinna when we were doing the
Speaker 3: Whole Life Expo, which was based in San Francisco, and
Speaker 3: Terry did Austin, Atlanta, Georgia, Orlando, Toronto. I think we
Speaker 3: did a seven city tour with him, and at that time,
Speaker 3: people were just taking mushrooms by the hands full, and
Speaker 3: people were overdosing and it wasn't really well thought out.
Speaker 3: And by the way, if you haven't done mushrooms, if
Speaker 3: you haven't, if you're thinking about doing psychedelics. Check out
Speaker 3: Terrence McKenna's book. It's called Food of the Gods. He's
Speaker 3: also got another book called The Hallucinogens, and his best
Speaker 3: known book is called Psilocybin. That's the title, which is
Speaker 3: the Mushrooms. And these are all important pieces of literature
Speaker 3: as we begin looking at microdosing. Hey, this is Clip
Speaker 3: your host of destiny. I hope you're doing well today.
Speaker 3: We have a special program. We have up to this
Speaker 3: point talked about microdosing, but haven't really got into the protocols.
Speaker 3: How to choose the proper psychedelic for you, what to
Speaker 3: do if it's a first time event, how to prepare body,
Speaker 3: mind and spirit, because your spirit is very much attached
Speaker 3: to working with plant medicines. And we have an expert
Speaker 3: on the program today who's going to show us just
Speaker 3: how to go about working with plant medicines in a
Speaker 3: beneficial factor. Now here in Northern California, and I talked
Speaker 3: about this over I think it's been a couple of
Speaker 3: years now. There are meetup groups and if you're not
Speaker 3: familiar with meetup, go check it out. Type and meetup
Speaker 3: on your search Internet search engine, and you'll see that
Speaker 3: these are groups that are educating people on how to
Speaker 3: use psychedelics, and then they're bigger issues is where to
Speaker 3: get quality psychedelics, and this is LSD, psilocybin, which is mushrooms, DMT,
Speaker 3: and ketamine. Now, if you've been reading the paper recent
Speaker 3: you'll know that Elon Musk overdose. Overdid it a little
Speaker 3: bit with kennemine, and apparently he was taking large amounts
Speaker 3: of it. He was working, poor guy, and you gotta
Speaker 3: really be careful with it. But today we're going to
Speaker 3: learn not only the properties of these psychedelics, but how
Speaker 3: to use them in micro infintestent levels of dosages so
Speaker 3: that you're affected, but not just affected. You're able to
Speaker 3: function completely. You're not spacing out, you're not passing out.
Speaker 3: You're functioning on a level that allows you to be
Speaker 3: very very creative that it allows you to be much
Speaker 3: more determined in what you're doing. And this is what
Speaker 3: I love about today's program. We use intention to bring
Speaker 3: forth our desired results. And I've been talking about intention
Speaker 3: for a while. I wrote a book a few years
Speaker 3: ago called Cannabis and Sexual Ecstasy for Men, and the
Speaker 3: focus on that was not only sexual ecstasy, but creativity
Speaker 3: and how to bring in the intuitive and the automatic software,
Speaker 3: which is what we call the intention. So you intend
Speaker 3: on something that's the software going into the body, the mind,
Speaker 3: and the spirit, which is the hardware. And when you
Speaker 3: intend on something to happen, it happens. The body is
Speaker 3: like following that path. And the reason we use it
Speaker 3: when we're using any type of psychedelic or cannabis or
Speaker 3: psychedelics is when you intend at the beginning of your journey,
Speaker 3: you're sitting in motion your desire to have a positive event,
Speaker 3: to have a healing event, and to make sure that
Speaker 3: all systems are go. So in other words, it's my
Speaker 3: belief and a lot of other people that we have
Speaker 3: on the show that when you take a psychedelic or
Speaker 3: cannabis there are levels of preparations, there's levels of oversight,
Speaker 3: and what I mean that is they're unseen forces or
Speaker 3: unseen entities. There are are higher wisdom and our higher
Speaker 3: self that are all engaged in the experience. And so
Speaker 3: you're intending or I should say, by intending all these entities,
Speaker 3: these energetics are placed on notice that you want to
Speaker 3: have support, that you want to be cared for, that
Speaker 3: you would like to have the ultimate experience of psychedelics,
Speaker 3: of cannabis or anything else that is going to shift
Speaker 3: your awareness. So intention and this wasn't even used twenty
Speaker 3: thirty years ago. It's just really come on board in
Speaker 3: the last i'd say last decade where intention is critical
Speaker 3: factor in any type of psychedelic experience, any type of
Speaker 3: altered perception, altered senses, so that the ultimate result is positive. Now,
Speaker 3: my guest today is Paul Austen, and he is the
Speaker 3: founder of Third Wave, which is an educational institution. And
Speaker 3: I have not found anyone quite like him who speaks
Speaker 3: to working with psychedelics on a microdose level. And he
Speaker 3: is an expert, and you'll hear soon you'll quickly learn why.
Speaker 3: I can only recommend his program to the point where
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get his book and consider trying some of
Speaker 3: this thing, you know, perhaps trying some of these protocols.
Speaker 3: So today's program is the art of microdosing psychedelics, and
Speaker 3: my guest is Paul F. Austen. Earth Ancients does a
Speaker 3: number of tours every year, and it's really important to
Speaker 3: have a really good camera. I just found the insta
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Speaker 3: it is an outstanding camera. It is an artificial intelligence camera,
Speaker 3: which means that it automatically can adjust to the tones
Speaker 3: either day or evening. It has a huge battery, one
Speaker 3: of the best image quality I've ever seen. And you
Speaker 3: can edit on the fly. I mean you quick edit
Speaker 3: mode where you can actually edit while you're standing there.
Speaker 3: And for a limited time, they'll throw in a selfie
Speaker 3: stick if you're one of the first thirty people who
Speaker 3: purchase the standard package. Go to store dot three sixty
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Speaker 3: that that selfie stick, which is worth twenty five bucks. Again,
Speaker 3: it's store dot Insta three sixty dot com. Use the
Speaker 3: word Ancients and you'll get that deal. This is an
Speaker 3: outstanding camera. Hold it in the palm of your hand.
Speaker 3: It's waterproof and it is a great camera. Check it
Speaker 3: out the Insta three sixty x five. We've been talking
Speaker 3: about micro DOSI now for almost four or five years.
Speaker 3: We've had people like Dennis McKinnon on the program. Graham
Speaker 3: Hancock paid us a visit and we were talking about
Speaker 3: his book on Journey, A Journey without Acid in Ayahuasca
Speaker 3: and DMT, and today I'm really happy to say I
Speaker 3: have somebody who's developed a protocol for using psychedelics in
Speaker 3: your daily life, and his name is Paul Austin. Let
Speaker 3: me tell you a little bit about Paul. He is
Speaker 3: an entrepreneur, thought leader, and I caught a great video.
Speaker 3: I was on YouTube yesterday and this was a talk
Speaker 3: he gave in I think it was twenty seventeen about
Speaker 3: his work in as a professional and a protocol developer
Speaker 3: of psychedelics, and he also found an organization called third Wave.
Speaker 3: It was really a cool video because I don't think
Speaker 3: anyone is doing what Paul is doing, which is actively
Speaker 3: working with team development, creating a protocol, but also creating
Speaker 3: a business around microdosing. So hey, Paul, welcome to Destiny.
Speaker 3: Great to have you on the program.
Speaker 4: Great to be here, Cliff, Thanks for making the space
Speaker 4: in the time. I'm happy to dive into everything microdocing, protocols, yeah,
Speaker 4: you know, mood, energy, leadership, all the stuff. It'll be
Speaker 4: a fun conversation today.
Speaker 3: I got to ask you, you know, I'm a little
Speaker 3: older than you. I mean, I remember people in junior
Speaker 3: high starting to drop acid LSD in the early days.
Speaker 3: You know, it was a tab. It was a drop
Speaker 3: put on a piece of candy or something like that,
Speaker 3: and I had friends. I never did it. I did
Speaker 3: a really strong cannabis back then, and now today's cannabis
Speaker 3: is even stronger. But how did you jump from creating
Speaker 3: an application for psychedelics from just taking it just I
Speaker 3: mean getting high and going, hey, this feels great and
Speaker 3: I'm happy where I'm at with this. I mean that
Speaker 3: you're taking a big, big leap.
Speaker 1: Big big leap. Yeah, quite the I think it's cool,
Speaker 1: a macro leap.
Speaker 4: Not just not just a micro leap.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 4: My story starts in West Michigan. I grew up in
Speaker 4: Grand Rapids, which is kind of the second biggest city
Speaker 4: in Michigan. Midwest, traditional family, and so my parents are
Speaker 4: very anti drug, you know. And a friend that introduced
Speaker 4: me to cannabis when I was sixteen then introduced me
Speaker 4: to LSD when I was nineteen, and so I had
Speaker 4: my first really profound experience is that higher doses, not
Speaker 4: microdoses with LSD. And because I was raised in a
Speaker 4: pretty religious, traditional family, there's a lot of sort of
Speaker 4: guilt and shame that I had to work through and release,
Speaker 4: you know, just from being raised in that environment, and
Speaker 4: so one of the key lessons or downloads from those
Speaker 4: early experiences was, you know, life is meant to be created.
Speaker 4: You are not beholden to any sort of stories that
Speaker 4: have come before. You free to do as you wish,
Speaker 4: So like, go go on a journey, right, go explore.
Speaker 4: And so at the age of twenty one, I moved
Speaker 4: to Turkey, where I taught English for a year. And
Speaker 4: while teaching English, I started to study a lot about
Speaker 4: how I could work online and you know, travel anywhere
Speaker 4: I wanted, And so I did that for a few
Speaker 4: years in Thailand and Portugal and Mexico. In twenty fifteen,
Speaker 4: I was living in Budapest, about a decade ago now,
Speaker 4: and just more people were starting to talk about psychedelics
Speaker 4: Tim Ferriss, Joe Rogan. There was more clinical research coming
Speaker 4: out about its benefits.
Speaker 1: Cannabis was also.
Speaker 4: At this point in time becoming more widely accepted, and
Speaker 4: so I sort of, as a young buddy and entrepreneur,
Speaker 4: I sort of saw the writing on the wall, and
Speaker 4: I made, you know, the assumption that psychedelics would sort
Speaker 4: of follow the path of cannabis in terms of becoming
Speaker 4: legalized and available and more accept it. And so in
Speaker 4: twenty fifteen I started a platform and a website because
Speaker 4: you know, I just genuinely wanted to help people. The
Speaker 4: intentional use of psychedelics had really benefited my own life,
Speaker 4: and I thought more and more people would become open
Speaker 4: and curious about this. And so when I started third
Speaker 4: Wave in twenty fifteen, I really focused on microdosing as
Speaker 4: the initial entry point, because a lot of people when
Speaker 4: they when they become curious about psychedelics or open to it,
Speaker 4: the biggest fear is I'm going to have a bad trip,
Speaker 4: Like I'm going to take too much.
Speaker 1: I'm going to freak out and I'm going to.
Speaker 4: Be paranoid and anxiety and what if I jump out
Speaker 4: of a window or whatever. And so I said, just
Speaker 4: take you know, start low, ghost slow, take a really
Speaker 4: low dose, do it a couple times a week, see
Speaker 4: how you feel.
Speaker 1: And then go from there.
Speaker 4: And so over the last decade, I've just made that
Speaker 4: my full time profession, publishing Mastering Microdosing, the book that
Speaker 4: we'll talk about a little bit more. I started a
Speaker 4: retreat center in the Netherlands. We did legal psilocybin retreats,
Speaker 4: and now my main focuses. I trained practitioners, so coaches, doctors, therapists,
Speaker 4: if they want to get trained, and how they can
Speaker 4: work with psychedelics. We facilitate that as well.
Speaker 3: What were you person getting from it? I mean you're going, yeah,
Speaker 3: I want to try it, I want to trip And
Speaker 3: but did you evolve your experiences to have intention for healing,
Speaker 3: have intention for creativity, have intention for creating business platforms? Yeah?
Speaker 4: I would say my early work was a lot of exploration.
Speaker 4: It wasn't you know, they talk a lot about in
Speaker 4: the media now this therapeutic approach to psychedelics, which is
Speaker 4: you do a very high dose, you have an eyemask,
Speaker 4: you have a playlist, you have a therapist or two
Speaker 4: where they're present with you.
Speaker 1: I wasn't doing that.
Speaker 4: But I also wasn't just taking a bunch of LSD
Speaker 4: or mushrooms at a rave or a music festival. I
Speaker 4: was doing it with a friend or two in the woods,
Speaker 4: usually outdoors. And so one of the big deep insights
Speaker 4: for me was how connected I felt.
Speaker 1: To the natural environment.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, and how so much of great health is
Speaker 4: having that relationship with the natural environment. But on a
Speaker 4: very practical level, well around the same time I started
Speaker 4: to get into LSD, I also started to get into
Speaker 4: like personal development, and so I.
Speaker 1: Started to meditate.
Speaker 4: Like my early experiences with psychedelics were really influential and
Speaker 4: helping me to commit to a meditation practice. I became
Speaker 4: more mindful of the food that I ate. I became
Speaker 4: you know, more aware of how I showed up in relationships,
Speaker 4: in the way that I was treating people, and you know,
Speaker 4: how it could be a better friend or a better
Speaker 4: you know, brother or son or whatever.
Speaker 3: That was.
Speaker 4: So it was really these in these early phases, it
Speaker 4: was just I was curious. I was interested in growing
Speaker 4: and developing. And then it wasn't until I was twenty four,
Speaker 4: when I had already some entrepreneurial experience that I thought, oh,
Speaker 4: this not only helps me myself to become a better human,
Speaker 4: but in working with these, I also have more capacity
Speaker 4: to be of service to life itself. And so that
Speaker 4: was really the the i'd say intention behind Third Wave
Speaker 4: and everything that's come from that is you know, I
Speaker 4: saw psychedelics as a tool that, if used skillfully, could
Speaker 4: really people sort of wake up, you know, And having
Speaker 4: grown up in a religious family, I was you know, talked, talked,
Speaker 4: talked to about God a lot, but I never experienced
Speaker 4: this sort of you know, the experience of what it
Speaker 4: is to be connected to spirit or.
Speaker 1: God or the great unknown, or do.
Speaker 3: You have an experience where you called in the God
Speaker 3: forces and kind of sat there and oh, my God,
Speaker 3: there's a somebody's talking to me, the giant voice.
Speaker 4: Well, the way that I frame it is it's more
Speaker 4: like I see God in nature. That was for me
Speaker 4: the big unlock, you know, where it was like the
Speaker 4: trees have a way of talking to us, the ocean
Speaker 4: and the water has a way of talking to us,
Speaker 4: the rivers and the streams, and so it really opened
Speaker 4: up that sort of awareness I've never I still haven't had.
Speaker 1: You know, my name is Paul. I still haven't had
Speaker 1: the classic apostle.
Speaker 4: Paul experience where I'm blinded by the light and exactly
Speaker 4: I can't figure out where I'm going. But there was
Speaker 4: a deep sort of opening in my heart and my
Speaker 4: spirit and a deep love and reverence for nature that
Speaker 4: came from that, and so I've really been in service
Speaker 4: to that ever since I've started this path.
Speaker 3: You have a podcast, and I've looked at some of
Speaker 3: your guests, and you have some Indigenous I don't know
Speaker 3: if they're elders or not, but you have a native perspective,
Speaker 3: do you have a sense of that connection? And there
Speaker 3: and then in the indigenous use of psychedelics.
Speaker 1: This is it's interesting.
Speaker 4: I just interviewed someone for the podcast that's not published
Speaker 4: yet who recently published a book on shamanism called Shamanism
Speaker 4: a Timeless Religion, and he talks a lot about this
Speaker 4: archaeological evidence for psychedelic use, and a lot of the
Speaker 4: archaeological evidence or anthropological evidence is you know, in Mexico,
Speaker 4: in Peru, Brazil, Colombia, with peyote, psilocybin, mushrooms, aahuasca and
Speaker 4: something called yo bo which is a five E meo snuff.
Speaker 4: And you know, part of what psychedelic work has really
Speaker 4: connected me to is sort of this this pre Christian
Speaker 4: way of being. So there was a fantastic book written
Speaker 4: about four years ago called The Immortality Key by Brian
Speaker 4: muro Rescue, where he explores the sort of early or
Speaker 4: sorry ancient Greek use of psychedelics where they drank something
Speaker 4: called kaikon and how that may have inspired early Christianity.
Speaker 4: And so I think a lot of my work has
Speaker 4: been with indigenous elders, whether that's with ayahuascar or psilocybin
Speaker 4: or san Pedro is another cac die similar to peyote.
Speaker 4: But also a lot of my personal work has been
Speaker 4: sort of releasing the conditioning of a lot of the
Speaker 4: sort of Christian morality that we've been born into and
Speaker 4: understanding what it was like to be you know, you know,
Speaker 4: I kind of I've had past life experiences as a
Speaker 4: sort of Celtic druid priest, which Merlin is sort of
Speaker 4: the archetypal representation of that. So some of this work
Speaker 4: has brought me into those archetypes like who is I
Speaker 4: as a white person before Christianity? Or who were we
Speaker 4: as white people before Christianity? Because I think there's so
Speaker 4: much emphasis as there should be on what I would say,
Speaker 4: indigenous people in the Americas and their relationship to psychedelics,
Speaker 4: but I don't think we put enough emphasis on the
Speaker 4: fact that we, as a white people also have indigenous
Speaker 4: lineages and we've been you know, because of Christianity in
Speaker 4: many ways, a lot of these what we're called the mysteries,
Speaker 4: the ancient Greek and Roman mysteries, they were banned, and
Speaker 4: so we've been disconnected from that lineage for seventeen hundred years.
Speaker 4: So I think that's part of the invitation now with
Speaker 4: the modern psychedelic renaissance, is how do we invite those philosophies,
Speaker 4: are those ways of being back into our day.
Speaker 3: To day Yeah, I hear you're saying about Merlin and
Speaker 3: kind of the white wave of early prehistory. I'm curious, though,
Speaker 3: do you have a sense now that you've been working
Speaker 3: with psychedelics that this is a tool that we should
Speaker 3: be using to go to the next level of evolution.
Speaker 3: If you read Graham Hancock's book, he believes that psychedelics
Speaker 3: were used for brain enhancement as well as a tool
Speaker 3: for moving beyond current concepts and accepting and beginning to
Speaker 3: use downloads of future concepts.
Speaker 4: Well, it's one inquiry that I've had of late, is
Speaker 4: what does it say about reality when psychedelics, aliens, and
Speaker 4: artificial intelligence are sort of all converging at the same time.
Speaker 4: I even asked chat GPT about this and it said
Speaker 4: something along the line, Yeah, it's it's something along the
Speaker 4: lines of like, we're clearly becoming much more open to
Speaker 4: possibilities that we previously.
Speaker 1: Did not know were or were not aware of.
Speaker 4: So, you know, I do think there are a lot
Speaker 4: of people who are are struggling, right so with mental
Speaker 4: health PTSD, depression, addiction, anxiety, and I feel like the
Speaker 4: first step for a lot of people is how do
Speaker 4: you just fill your own cup? You know, And psychedelics
Speaker 4: have shown incredible clinical efficacy to heal PTSD, depression, addiction,
Speaker 4: traumatic brain injury. There's even some really interesting clinical research
Speaker 4: that's showing how it can treat Parkinson's MS, Alzheimer's, right,
Speaker 4: these neurodegenerative diseases. So I think the first step for
Speaker 4: a lot of people is how do you fill your
Speaker 4: own cup? How do you sort of get back to baseline.
Speaker 4: I was fortunate enough to be, you know, even though
Speaker 4: I was raised in a pretty sheltered, traditional Christian home,
Speaker 4: I had a good upbringing, no no major big t traumas,
Speaker 4: and so immediately when I started my psychedelic use, these
Speaker 4: questions of what is the sort of exploration of what
Speaker 4: it means to be human really really started to come online.
Speaker 4: And you know, I do think that is the greatest
Speaker 4: offering with these substances. Even if you look at the
Speaker 4: counterculture in the fifties and sixties and the use of LSD.
Speaker 4: A lot of the inquiry was around the overlap of
Speaker 4: psychedelics and self actualization. So Maslow had his sort of
Speaker 4: hierarchy of needs, and he has written if you kind
Speaker 4: of dig on the internet a little bit, he's written
Speaker 4: about how psychedelics helped to facilitate this state of self actualization,
Speaker 4: and he actually had something beyond that called self transcendence.
Speaker 4: And so I think part of the value of psychedelics
Speaker 4: is they allow us to see beyond sort of a
Speaker 4: dualistic reality and worldview, and tapping into that sort of
Speaker 4: creative muse or creative spirit really allows us to have
Speaker 4: a new lens and a new perspective on what it
Speaker 4: means to be a human being at this point in time.
Speaker 4: And so I think part of the greatest potential or
Speaker 4: invitation with these substances is to reimagine the systems that
Speaker 4: we have not as I would say, extractive or short term,
Speaker 4: and we can start to actually look at how do
Speaker 4: we create systems that are regenerative and built for seven
Speaker 4: generations from now, not seven years from now. And I
Speaker 4: think that's for me, a big part of the Indigenous
Speaker 4: lineage and the Indigenous knowledge when you when you talk
Speaker 4: to indigenous elders who have worked with psychedelics or not,
Speaker 4: they always talk about how do we become great ancestors?
Speaker 4: And so I think that's a big question that psychedelics
Speaker 4: bring up for us, is what are both the practical
Speaker 4: but also spiritual things that we can do to be
Speaker 4: great ancestors and you know, have the agency, the autonomy,
Speaker 4: the capacity to actually create healthier ecosystems and you know,
Speaker 4: businesses and things like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I like the guy aspect of indigenous psychedelics, working
Speaker 3: with guy, working with earth and all the animals and nature.
Speaker 3: But I think because we're in the United States and
Speaker 3: we're hyperactive, we have to we can't sit still. We
Speaker 3: got to be innovating, we have to be creating, we
Speaker 3: have to be manufacturing on a super level. And I'm
Speaker 3: curious as to what you see the future as working
Speaker 3: with psychedelics. Can you say that I am beginning to
Speaker 3: get a sense of our future as a super race
Speaker 3: or a superhuman or something, you know what I mean,
Speaker 3: without getting too much in the ego. It's so easy
Speaker 3: to get into ego on this stuff. But I'm just
Speaker 3: curious what you're touching on because you're in a minute here,
Speaker 3: we're gonna talk a little bit about your better leadership
Speaker 3: through macrodo scene, which I think is business based.
Speaker 1: Yeah, business base.
Speaker 4: I really see the invitation for CEOs to become more artistic.
Speaker 4: So I think that's part of the vision of how
Speaker 4: can more business people be like artists? Yeah, and less industrialist.
Speaker 4: But you know, when I when I, when I think
Speaker 4: about the future of this, I often you know, I
Speaker 4: talk a little bit about the context in the past.
Speaker 4: So even third wave, right as a as a frame
Speaker 4: suggests there's a first wave and the second wave, and
Speaker 4: we are We've already talked a little bit about the
Speaker 4: first wave, the ancient in indigenous use. But in the
Speaker 4: second wave, what a lot of folks aren't I think
Speaker 4: fully cognizant of is And this will hit home for
Speaker 4: you because of where you live. Silicon Valley wouldn't have
Speaker 4: happened without LSD and and and the really basic fundamental
Speaker 4: story is Ken Kesey, who listeners may know of. He
Speaker 4: was He was a lab rat in an experiment at
Speaker 4: Stanford in the late fifties, right, And what he did
Speaker 4: is he snuck out a bunch of LSD from Stanford
Speaker 4: brought it to Menlo Park and started handing it out
Speaker 4: to all of his friends, including a band called the Warlocks,
Speaker 4: which ended up becoming Grateful Dead, and a lot of
Speaker 4: those early people, including a guy named Stuart Brand who's
Speaker 4: still alive and lives in Saucelito, started to do a
Speaker 4: bunch of LSD and ended up becoming these pioneers of
Speaker 4: the personal computer revolution. In fact, Stuart Brand wrote a
Speaker 4: piece for Rolling Stone in the early seventies I think
Speaker 4: it was seventy two or seventy four where he said
Speaker 4: the personal computer is to the seventies what LSD was
Speaker 4: to the sixties, where it's allowing us now to be
Speaker 4: hyper connected.
Speaker 1: So it was almost like.
Speaker 4: The intuitive wisdom that came up from these experiences as
Speaker 4: ellas D really informed. And a lot of people know
Speaker 4: the Steve Jobs story as well, so I won't go
Speaker 4: even into more detail around that. So I think the
Speaker 4: invitation now is a lot of that has been cognitive, right,
Speaker 4: and so we see that with the development of AI.
Speaker 4: We see that even in the sort of over intellectualization
Speaker 4: of everything that happened in tech and computers, where a
Speaker 4: lot of people can only be really neck up, and
Speaker 4: so I think the invitation now, as we we deep
Speaker 4: in into this is really to ask what does it
Speaker 4: mean to be in my celial network? And that's I
Speaker 4: love that metaphor because if LSD is more cognitive, psilocybin
Speaker 4: mushrooms are much more integrated and embodied. And so I
Speaker 4: think the invitation for a lot of us is how
Speaker 4: do we actually build and create from the heart and
Speaker 4: the gut and not just the head, And how do
Speaker 4: we have greater attunement and sensitivity to our relational field,
Speaker 4: to our you know, the ecosystems in which we live,
Speaker 4: to really experiencing what it's like to be I would say,
Speaker 4: in love with life or in love with the natural environment.
Speaker 4: And for me, my hope then is that I've seen
Speaker 4: this over the last decade because I've worked with you know,
Speaker 4: hundreds of people and business and leadership positions that when
Speaker 4: they really commit to doing this work in a way
Speaker 4: that's intentional and with integrity, it ends up trans forming
Speaker 4: them and they can't go back to how they lived before.
Speaker 4: And oftentimes how that pans out in business is they're
Speaker 4: more people centered rather than profit focus. They care a
Speaker 4: lot more about what we might call a triple bottom line,
Speaker 4: which is people profit and purpose. So I find that
Speaker 4: a lot of people who end up working with microdosing
Speaker 4: or general psychedelic work, they can't do work that feels
Speaker 4: like they're selling their soul, you know, they just have
Speaker 4: to find something that feels meaningful and fulfilling for them.
Speaker 4: And especially in now the age of AI right where
Speaker 4: you know, you read these headlines and it's like ninety
Speaker 4: percent of you know, white collar knowledge workers are going
Speaker 4: to be replaced in five years, right, And I don't
Speaker 4: know how true this is, but let's say even fifty
Speaker 4: percent of knowledge workers are replaced in fifteen years. That
Speaker 4: opens up this massive question about, well, what do we
Speaker 4: do right if we no longer have to work or
Speaker 4: in the way that we've thought about work, where do
Speaker 4: we put our time energy?
Speaker 1: You know, vision, heart love?
Speaker 4: And I think something that psychedelics do is they offer
Speaker 4: a path forward. In that way, they offer some insight
Speaker 4: and glimmers of possibilities in terms of what that may
Speaker 4: look like.
Speaker 3: We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
Speaker 3: our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
Speaker 3: with my guests today. Paul Austen from Third Wave discussing
Speaker 3: microdosing psychedelics will be right back. My guest today is
Speaker 3: Paul Austin, who's written a book called Mastering Microdosing. He's
Speaker 3: also the founder and director of Third Wave, a microdosing
Speaker 3: institution based in San Diego, California. I don't know how
Speaker 3: much about AI, you know, but I think the only
Speaker 3: way for to take over is to become sentient, self aware.
Speaker 3: I don't see it. I just don't see it. And
Speaker 3: I've had guys on this show here that are somewhat
Speaker 3: expert at it and are dealing with it. So I
Speaker 3: think it's a kind of fear mongering when you say
Speaker 3: we're gonna's gonna wipe out this many jobs, this many
Speaker 3: creative people. It's just I think it's a tool that
Speaker 3: you know. And we're here in California kind of the
Speaker 3: I'm here in San Francisco where he used the epicenter
Speaker 3: for the whole thing, and I think it's just kind
Speaker 3: of been blown out of proportion. But getting back to
Speaker 3: the third Wave, you brought up the indigenous level, which
Speaker 3: is the first wave, the second wave. I had the
Speaker 3: I was a kid, but I was a program director
Speaker 3: here in San Francisco, for whole life, had Tim Larry,
Speaker 3: had Dennis McKenna, and these guys are pushing the dropping
Speaker 3: the acid, taking the psychondelics. I don't think they were.
Speaker 3: Or perhaps the evolution of the of the use was
Speaker 3: in a place where where you are right now, which
Speaker 3: is intentionally expanding the use of it with a specific goal.
Speaker 3: And I'm really curious now third wave is a website,
Speaker 3: third Wave is also a protocol. Tell us about third
Speaker 3: wave and how it's moving beyond the first two protocols
Speaker 3: or the first two waves.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 4: And so Timothy Leary had this really famous quote turn
Speaker 4: on tune in drop out right.
Speaker 1: That was sort of the.
Speaker 4: Quintessential mantra of the counter culture in the sixties. And
Speaker 4: so there was even in that process in other reed right,
Speaker 4: there was a rejection of the status quo in the mainstream.
Speaker 4: There was a sense of we're separated from that, we
Speaker 4: aren't that we're.
Speaker 1: Doing our own thing here.
Speaker 4: And I think the invitation in this third wave of
Speaker 4: psychedelics is true integration right where one could say a
Speaker 4: lot of these practices that were counter culture in the sixties, meditation, yoga,
Speaker 4: psychedelics are now actually becoming much more mainstream. And so
Speaker 4: I think that's why I've always loved micro doosing, because
Speaker 4: microdosing doesn't necessarily bring you into this transcendent state. It
Speaker 4: actually keeps you here and now, but it just sort
Speaker 4: of turns the knob up a little bit. And so
Speaker 4: a lot of what we focus on with our protocols,
Speaker 4: and I'll to do a little foundational So microdosing really
Speaker 4: with our protocols is you're microdosing three days a week,
Speaker 4: basically every other day a Monday Wednesday Friday or Monday
Speaker 4: Wednesday Saturday. The substances that are most commonly microdosed or
Speaker 4: LSD psilocybin, mushrooms. And then I've been talking more and
Speaker 4: more about something called sampedro or wachuma, which is a
Speaker 4: cactus from the Andes that has mescaline mescalines the active
Speaker 4: alkaloid in san pedro or with tuma, and the key
Speaker 4: benefits that people notice are greater mood, energy, and better sleep.
Speaker 3: Let me just stop you real quick quick for a
Speaker 3: second pause. I just want to get into this in
Speaker 3: my head. How in the hell are you supposed to
Speaker 3: microdose LSD.
Speaker 1: And go to work?
Speaker 3: Now? I think for you, this is funny because when
Speaker 3: I was watching you do this.
Speaker 1: Talk, I said, I was a speak any of it.
Speaker 3: Right that morning you had dropped some acid and I'm thinking,
Speaker 3: how is this guy standing in talking? So you need
Speaker 3: to educate this a non user, and how the hell
Speaker 3: you function with LSD microdose?
Speaker 1: So start loan, go slow.
Speaker 4: You can always take you can always take more, you
Speaker 4: can't take less. I love the I love the Hunter S.
Speaker 4: Thompson quote. Once you buy the ticket, you take the ride.
Speaker 3: Yeah, dude, even a load dose of LSD if you're
Speaker 3: a non user, that's come on.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 4: So so this is but it is really a dosage question, right,
Speaker 4: It's like the difference. It's it is the difference between like,
Speaker 4: you know, a cup of coffee and and ten cups
Speaker 4: of coffee or something like that. And so I think
Speaker 4: part of the part of the I would say problem
Speaker 4: or stigma that's associated with LSD is people have it
Speaker 4: in their mind, oh, I'm doing a tab or I'm
Speaker 4: doing you know, two tabs, or I'm doing four tabs,
Speaker 4: whereas a micro dose is one tenth of a tab.
Speaker 1: It's about ten micrograms.
Speaker 3: Okay, So the experience is going to be altered perception,
Speaker 3: but you're saying that it's functioning. You're still functioning.
Speaker 4: Stub intoxicating is the technical phrase, the fact intoxicating, meaning
Speaker 4: you are at you maybe at a threshold level where
Speaker 4: you notice a slight shift and change so people will notice,
Speaker 4: oh I have a little more energy, I'm smiling a
Speaker 4: little bit more.
Speaker 3: Really minor, Okay.
Speaker 4: It's very subtle, right, it's very subtle. Sub perceptuals and
Speaker 4: other phrase that's often been used to talk about with microdose.
Speaker 4: And then so a tenth of a regular dose is
Speaker 4: about ten micrograms, and I tell people to start lower
Speaker 4: than that. Five micrograms is a really good starting dose
Speaker 4: because everyone has a different sensitivity. And do it on
Speaker 4: a weekend, like when you don't have to go to work,
Speaker 4: because believing. I've heard the stories of people who thought
Speaker 4: they were taking a micro dose, and I've seen the
Speaker 4: memes of people who thought they were taking a micro
Speaker 4: dose and it definitely was not a micro dose.
Speaker 1: So you wanted of.
Speaker 3: A board meeting and everyone's sitting and looking at each other,
Speaker 3: and one guy who took the dose is looking out
Speaker 3: the window.
Speaker 1: This happened.
Speaker 4: I know a guy who was a CEO of a
Speaker 4: two billion dollars startup in Silicon Valley and thought took
Speaker 4: what he thought was a micro dose and it was
Speaker 4: not a micro dose, and he had a really important
Speaker 4: board meeting and it ended up being kind of one
Speaker 4: of these things that the board found out about later
Speaker 4: and a reason they used to fire him. Oh man,
Speaker 4: I hate the heath right, And for him it was
Speaker 4: all like this was supposed to happen, Like there were
Speaker 4: a lot of other moving pieces, you know. He was
Speaker 4: grateful for the transition. But yeah, so start low goo slow.
Speaker 4: For psilocybin mushrooms, that's about one hundred milligrams. So a
Speaker 4: full dose of mushrooms is like two to three grams,
Speaker 4: so it's about one hundred milligrams. So you started a
Speaker 4: very low dose. You start in a weekend and then
Speaker 4: the key really with a micro dosing protocol is to
Speaker 4: do it three times.
Speaker 1: A week for six weeks.
Speaker 4: Okay, because what's happening when you take a low dose
Speaker 4: is it's upregulating something called b d NF brain drive
Speaker 4: neurotropic factor, which is a precursor to neuroplasticity, and it's deesting, yeah,
Speaker 4: and it's down relating the fear response from the amygdala,
Speaker 4: and so neurobiologically you have greater plasticity, meaning you can
Speaker 4: learn and adapt quicker, and you have less fear, and
Speaker 4: so you can actually create from a place of flow
Speaker 4: rather than feeling like you have to procrastinate or what
Speaker 4: if I do this or what if I say this?
Speaker 4: It's just sort of more openness with it. And so
Speaker 4: people find that after those six weeks of microdocing better mood,
Speaker 4: more energy, greater neural plasticity, less fear, and a lot
Speaker 4: of people then after that experience they might take like
Speaker 4: I usually I advise take a week or two off.
Speaker 4: Like for every three weeks you microdose, take a week off.
Speaker 4: So if someone is going through a protocol, they're doing
Speaker 4: it for six weeks, I say take two weeks off, reset,
Speaker 4: and then ask yourself, is this something that I want
Speaker 4: to re engage with because a lot of people who
Speaker 4: are microdosing are then you know, I would call it
Speaker 4: like a sacred supplement is probably the best frame for it,
Speaker 4: where it becomes this thing that is intoxicating, that subperceptible.
Speaker 4: But when people do it, you know, it just adds
Speaker 4: a nice little sparkle to their day to day.
Speaker 3: So if I mean, we're in California, we could probably
Speaker 3: look in the Yellow Pages and find groups that should
Speaker 3: do this stuff. You know, doesn't there's no such thing
Speaker 3: as Yellow Pages anymore. I wish there was, I know really,
Speaker 3: But if you're outside of California, especially in some of
Speaker 3: these I don't want to say less progressive states, but
Speaker 3: states that are challenged by these concepts, what are we
Speaker 3: going to do with somebody who wants to start something
Speaker 3: like this and it hasn't really been involved in psychedelics.
Speaker 3: I think it's important that you have a guide a
Speaker 3: person or do you have recommendations on your website for
Speaker 3: every state every country? Talk about that a little bit.
Speaker 4: So, yeah, the legal landscape is really interesting right now
Speaker 4: with psychedelics. So Colorado has legalized what they call natural medicine,
Speaker 4: which include psilocybin, ayahuasca, sampedro five meo, DMT, and e boga.
Speaker 4: Oregon is legalized psilocybin mushrooms. New Mexico recently passed a
Speaker 4: bill through the legislature to medicalize psilocybin. And then you
Speaker 4: have several cities like Seattle, Detroit, Oakland, Washington, d C.
Speaker 4: You know, and other smaller cities like Cambridge and Berkeley
Speaker 4: that have decriminalized all plant medicine, So there's pockets where
Speaker 4: it's accessible. So that's that's point one. Point two is
Speaker 4: eight million people took psilocybin mushrooms last year in the
Speaker 4: United States, about three point one percent of the population,
Speaker 4: and about four million of those people were microdosing. And
Speaker 4: so the question is where are all these people getting
Speaker 4: getting the drugs, getting these these substances. So a lot
Speaker 4: of people are growing their own mushrooms. So on third way,
Speaker 4: we have like a mushroom grow kit that makes it
Speaker 4: really easy for folks to be able to grow their
Speaker 4: own mushrooms and have a relationship with those mushrooms.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 4: I I selling the kids the kits, not the spores,
Speaker 4: so we can legally sell the kits.
Speaker 3: I going to say this, This is my next question
Speaker 3: is where do people find these drugs?
Speaker 1: But you have to get the spores yourself. Now, the
Speaker 1: other layer of this.
Speaker 4: Is, you know, sixty one percent of Americans now support
Speaker 4: legal psychedelic therapy. So we're at a place in time
Speaker 4: where the especially the federal government, but also other state
Speaker 4: governments are aware of these clinically established benefits and they're
Speaker 4: actually focusing most of their time and energy on fentanyl, cocaine, albeits,
Speaker 4: you know, drugs that are dangerous, addictive, leading to death.
Speaker 4: So there is this kind of middle confusing place that
Speaker 4: we're in where there's now dozens of websites that you
Speaker 4: can go on and you can just purchase microdoses on
Speaker 4: those websites and they'll just ship it to your home. Wow,
Speaker 4: it's illegal, but no one's doing anything about it. And
Speaker 4: so the key with that then is to make sure
Speaker 4: that you get it from like a trusted supplier. So
Speaker 4: with Third Way, we don't provide it on our website
Speaker 4: it's too risky, but we have partners. So like one partner,
Speaker 4: for example, is a company called Golden Rule, which we
Speaker 4: can drop a link to and they have psilocybin microdoses
Speaker 4: and LSD microdosies. So when folks come to us and
Speaker 4: they're like, we'd love to get some micro doses, where
Speaker 4: do we go? We just point them to some of
Speaker 4: these these external websites to look at. And the key
Speaker 4: then is if you are getting you know, these microdoses,
Speaker 4: to have a friend or a coach or a therapist.
Speaker 4: We do something called the micro dos inexperience through third wave,
Speaker 4: where I coach a group of people live over zoom
Speaker 4: once a week who want a microdose and just support
Speaker 4: them and they have questions and help them get their
Speaker 4: dose level correct and navigate anything that might be coming up.
Speaker 4: So I do think if someone is interested in this
Speaker 4: and they're doing this for the first time, you definitely
Speaker 4: want to be part of a like a course or
Speaker 4: an educational initiative so you can make sure that you
Speaker 4: have the support that you need if you want to,
Speaker 4: you know, explore this in a way that's helpful.
Speaker 3: That's a very important point that you're making, which is
Speaker 3: following what I'm thinking right now, which is how do
Speaker 3: we begin safe space using the intention and what are
Speaker 3: the results to start with the environment which is critical.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So set and setting was a term coined by Timothy
Speaker 4: Leary and Richard Elbert who later became ram Das and
Speaker 4: so set and setting refers to the mindset when you're
Speaker 4: going into it. And so what I often invite people
Speaker 4: to explore is, you know, can you maybe do a
Speaker 4: little meditation or a little breath work, or just spend
Speaker 4: time in silence away from your phone, Like do you
Speaker 4: have the capacity to go inward and just do a
Speaker 4: check of how you are, where are you at right,
Speaker 4: sort of getting a sense of your mindset. And then
Speaker 4: the first time you're doing this, be in a comfortable environment.
Speaker 4: So be at home, be in the garden, maybe go
Speaker 4: to a local park if that feels comfortable, and just
Speaker 4: be in a setting.
Speaker 1: That you know really well.
Speaker 4: Like what I do not advise is, you know, to
Speaker 4: take this and go drive in a car, or to
Speaker 4: take this and go to a music festival, or to
Speaker 4: take this and go out to a bar and be
Speaker 4: around a bunch of other people. Like, if you're exploring this,
Speaker 4: be at home, be in a safe setting. You know,
Speaker 4: have a little time to check in beforehand, because that
Speaker 4: environment really really matters even at lower doses. It especially
Speaker 4: matters with higher doses of psychedelics, but even at lower doses,
Speaker 4: people notice that there may be emotions or feelings that
Speaker 4: start to come up. And so to have a place
Speaker 4: that you can be with those emotions and feelings that
Speaker 4: feel safe is really important.
Speaker 3: That's somebody who's strong and emotionally solid enough to do
Speaker 3: it on their own. Do you support and you just
Speaker 3: mentioned doing group trainings, do you have a resource for
Speaker 3: somebody in a state or a country who may want
Speaker 3: to have someone watched them or her. Do you do
Speaker 3: can you? I mean some support therapy for sure.
Speaker 4: Yeah. We have even on third Way, we have a
Speaker 4: directory of hundreds of coaches and therapists and guides and
Speaker 4: retreat centers and even clinics that folks can go and
Speaker 4: check out. In our training program, we've trained over three
Speaker 4: hundred practitioners, so a lot of them are listed in
Speaker 4: that directory. They're in basically all fifties, you know, not
Speaker 4: all fifty states, but I would say probably twenty five
Speaker 4: to thirty states. We have students from maybe twenty different
Speaker 4: countries as.
Speaker 1: Well, so.
Speaker 4: That would be part of the invitation. The other invitation
Speaker 4: for people who are in you know, we'll just name names. Alabama, Mississippi, Montana,
Speaker 4: you know, Idaho. Right, these are some of the more
Speaker 4: conservative places. South Dakota, North Dakota, even the Midwest like Michigan, Ohio,
Speaker 4: there are you'd be surprised how many meetup groups there,
Speaker 4: Like we were talking about meetups before we went live,
Speaker 4: Like if you go to meetup dot com. There's a
Speaker 4: lot of Psychedelexis societies now that are doing these informal
Speaker 4: meetups in various cities across the country.
Speaker 1: And then there's also conferences and events.
Speaker 4: So I'd also invite people if they are curious about
Speaker 4: this and they do want to explore it, maybe even
Speaker 4: from a professional perspective they're a therapist or doctor, a
Speaker 4: coach or whatever. There's big conferences, three or four big
Speaker 4: conferences every year that that also are a great way
Speaker 4: to find the others. That's the Timothy Leary phrase. Because
Speaker 4: people who might not live in La or San Francisco
Speaker 4: or New York or you know, some of these big cities,
Speaker 4: they still need that support, and so being able to
Speaker 4: find that support is really essential. So our directory is
Speaker 4: great conferences, events, meetup dot com is also a good
Speaker 4: place to find local.
Speaker 3: Can you reference real quickly? Give you mention this that
Speaker 3: you got you do zoom conferences where you're doing microdosing.
Speaker 3: Is that enough do you think if you're because I mean,
Speaker 3: for me, I've been doing zoom for so many years
Speaker 3: it's you know, it's an extension, so it doesn't really
Speaker 3: make a difference for me. But if you're doing and
Speaker 3: mine altrain protocol, is that enough for support? Do you think?
Speaker 4: I would say depends on the individuals. So typically what
Speaker 4: I advise is, if someone is really struggling, right, if
Speaker 4: they're maybe depressed or struggling with anxiety or PTSD, if
Speaker 4: they're on psychiatric meds prozac, lexiprozoloft, you know, benzodiazepines, ADHD
Speaker 4: medications you know well, Butrimm like, if you're on a
Speaker 4: medication and you're interested in these, usually what I advise
Speaker 4: is to start with ketamine. Ketamine is an FDA approved medication.
Speaker 4: It is legal, accessible, and available at all fifty states.
Speaker 4: There are a lot of accessible ways to get it,
Speaker 4: and a bunch of in person clinics. So I would say,
Speaker 4: if someone's really struggling, to start there, because it's legal,
Speaker 4: it's accessible, it's inexpensive.
Speaker 3: This is what the usk was using here recently, Yeah,
Speaker 3: before he jumped off dodge the whole nother lens.
Speaker 4: Well, And that's part of the dark side of ketamine
Speaker 4: is it does have greater potential for addiction compared to
Speaker 4: some of these natural plant medicines. So what I tell
Speaker 4: people is it's a launching off point, it's a transition point.
Speaker 1: Don't get stuck there, right.
Speaker 3: Do you like it as a starting point? Though Paul
Speaker 3: is it because it's more easily accessible or the experience
Speaker 3: is measurable.
Speaker 4: So an experience with ketemine usually lasts about ninety minutes.
Speaker 4: You know, an experience with psilocybin mushrooms is about six hours,
Speaker 4: so for people who are new to psychedelic work, ketamine
Speaker 4: is a much shorter window. It also doesn't really have
Speaker 4: any contraindications, so, especially at high doses, certain psychedelics are
Speaker 4: contraindicated with SSRIs. Ketamine is not contraindicated with SSRIs. And
Speaker 4: I think the most important thing, Cliff is it's legal
Speaker 4: and FDA approved, And so I think when people are
Speaker 4: coming into this space right knowing that it is legal,
Speaker 4: there's no potential risk of anything happening. It goes back
Speaker 4: to that mindset, that environment going into this. Some people
Speaker 4: just want that extra assurance that they're doing everything by
Speaker 4: the book, and so ketamine is a great starting option. Now,
Speaker 4: with all that being said, it looks like psilocybin, LSD,
Speaker 4: MDMA will all be approved by the FDA in the
Speaker 4: next year or two. So although you know we're recording
Speaker 4: this in June twenty twenty five, ketamine is the best
Speaker 4: legally available option very quickly, there will be other psychedelic
Speaker 4: compounds that will become accessible and available in all fifty
Speaker 4: states through doctors.
Speaker 3: We're going to take a short commercial break to allow
Speaker 3: our sponsors to identify themselves, and we will return shortly
Speaker 3: with my guest today, Paul Austin, talking about microdo scene
Speaker 3: will be right back. I'm fascinating with microdosing. I honestly
Speaker 3: haven't partaken in this phenomenon on my own. I'm just
Speaker 3: kind of a scaredy cat. But I'll tell you after
Speaker 3: this interview, it made me think twice about it, and
Speaker 3: a great way to start is to get the book
Speaker 3: Mastering Microdosing, which is a step by step gradual program
Speaker 3: of taking small doses of psychedelics and experiencing individual sessions.
Speaker 3: I love to hear that. I've been waiting for cannabis
Speaker 3: to get legalized nationally and it just seeps falling behind
Speaker 3: the times. You know, I don't see Trump as an advocate,
Speaker 3: but maybe he is, you.
Speaker 4: Know, Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of the
Speaker 4: downside of the cannabis state based legalization effort is there
Speaker 4: wasn't enough emphasis put on the clinical research side of things.
Speaker 4: So it is I think approved for epilepsy, maybe certain
Speaker 4: forms of THHC, but it's very limited. And I do
Speaker 4: think it's like almost all the harms of drugs come
Speaker 4: from prohibition with cannabis, with a lot of these. So
Speaker 4: I just don't understand why something like alcohol is totally
Speaker 4: legal and available and cannabis is not.
Speaker 1: It's a bit of a mind fuck. Still, let's go.
Speaker 3: Talk about the protocol a little bit. We're talking about
Speaker 3: safe space, camaraderie groups, whatever, And I wrote a book
Speaker 3: on cannabis a few years ago. The intention when using
Speaker 3: psychedelics or any kind of stimulant is really critical now,
Speaker 3: and we hadn't thought about it until really recently. Using
Speaker 3: this what I call brain software to drive the hardware,
Speaker 3: which is the experience or the body, and having an intention,
Speaker 3: it's my intent for this to happen, it's my intent
Speaker 3: to get knowledge on my relationships, so forth and so on.
Speaker 3: Give us a little sense of how you use intention
Speaker 3: in your protocol.
Speaker 4: So intention I see as like the through line. It's
Speaker 4: the thread that keeps us tethered. And I'd say that's
Speaker 4: true in a high dose experience for the day, right
Speaker 4: the journey, if it's a four to five to six
Speaker 4: hour journey that intention is Usually it can be just
Speaker 4: a single word, sort of like a mantra that we
Speaker 4: come back to breathe their presence or surrender or opening,
Speaker 4: because that allows us to have sort of an anchor.
Speaker 1: I often use the breath as well as.
Speaker 4: A really good anchor and sort of a way to
Speaker 4: keep us grounded in the intention. With microdosing, it's a
Speaker 4: little bit different, and that we're really looking at the
Speaker 4: intention over those that trajectory right the four to six
Speaker 4: to eight weeks that someone might be micro dosing, and
Speaker 4: sometimes that intention grows and evolves. And so what I
Speaker 4: invite people to explore is to set an intention to journal,
Speaker 4: to have some time for reflection, to have an understanding
Speaker 4: of where do you want this to go? And oftentimes
Speaker 4: I find intention is balanced in both the experience of it,
Speaker 4: meaning how do I want to feel while I'm doing this,
Speaker 4: what are the practices that I want to explore as
Speaker 4: part of my micro dosing protocol? And what is sort
Speaker 4: of the outcome or the objective. I find if we
Speaker 4: focus too much on the outcome or objective, it brings
Speaker 4: us away from the sort of moment to moment attunement
Speaker 4: of what's happening in our nervous system, what's happening in
Speaker 4: our brain, what's happening, you know, in our sense of self.
Speaker 4: So it's important with intention to both balance the sort
Speaker 4: of present moment, the experience of it, with the objective
Speaker 4: or outcome. And then the objective or outcome really depends
Speaker 4: on the individual. Some folks, you know, they've been on
Speaker 4: SSRIs for a decade or you know, fifteen years or
Speaker 4: twenty years, and they really want to get off SSRYZ.
Speaker 4: So some folks have an intention, whether like I'd really
Speaker 4: love to wean off my prozac or maybe either they
Speaker 4: have ADHD they love to get off their riddling or
Speaker 4: ater all medications. Some folks have an intention where they'd
Speaker 4: love to write a book, you know, some form of
Speaker 4: creative project. Maybe they want to get back into music
Speaker 4: and perform a piece in the piano or the guitar.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: Some folks have an intention to really just connect in
Speaker 4: a deeper way with their partner, their spouse or other
Speaker 4: loved ones in their life, so to or intimacy and
Speaker 4: connection and what that might be like. So I think
Speaker 4: the intention is really depending on the context of the
Speaker 4: individual's life and microdocing I look as sort of a
Speaker 4: like a lubrication. It just sort of makes the process
Speaker 4: easier of not only living but also growing and developing.
Speaker 4: And I think again that comes down a lot to
Speaker 4: the support that we have, whether that's coaching or therapeutic
Speaker 4: or group and community support, and it comes down to
Speaker 4: the neuroplastic benefits of microdocing, how it's helping our brain
Speaker 4: to become more plastic and more malleable, which allows for
Speaker 4: greater and easier change on a day to day basis.
Speaker 3: Let's talk briefly in a time that we have left
Speaker 3: a little bit about results. And you mentioned neuralplacicity, which
Speaker 3: is brain learning. Are you doing any studies or are
Speaker 3: you kind of watching team members grow and become more creative,
Speaker 3: become more I don't know, I don't want to say superhuman,
Speaker 3: but you know, having new skill sets.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So there are a lot of anecdotes, Like we just
Speaker 4: did a microdosing experience that we finished up on Monday.
Speaker 4: It was a six week group coaching experience and the
Speaker 4: intention for that was creativity, and so we had an
Speaker 4: individual who through that process they ended up making a drum.
Speaker 4: He lives I think in Missouri, and he went out
Speaker 4: hunting and then took the hide of the skin and
Speaker 4: ended up making a drum out of that hide. Had
Speaker 4: never made a drum before, but was really inspired to
Speaker 4: be able to do that because then he can use it.
Speaker 4: He helped with facilitation and the drum can be a
Speaker 4: really powerful tool that way. We had another person who
Speaker 4: was working on a memoir and so they were able,
Speaker 4: you know, through that microdosing process just to have a
Speaker 4: little more access to that state of flow and ended
Speaker 4: up finishing the first few chapters of their memoir, something
Speaker 4: they had wanted to do for many years and just
Speaker 4: hadn't really set aside the time for. And then we
Speaker 4: had another woman who had played piano at a much
Speaker 4: younger age and you know, just hadn't really touched it
Speaker 4: in a long time, and she ended up, as part
Speaker 4: of that microdocene experience, committing to playing the piano every
Speaker 4: day and was performing you know, pieces by the end
Speaker 4: of it. So I think these results vary depending on
Speaker 4: the intention. But the clinical research just talk a little
Speaker 4: bit about that because you had asked about the research.
Speaker 4: The clinical research tends to show these three main benefits.
Speaker 4: Greater energy, better mood, and more sleep. Those are the
Speaker 4: clinically established benefits. Because psychedelics are still quite illegal, it's
Speaker 4: very expensive to do high quality research still because of
Speaker 4: their illegality, there's still a lot we don't know. So
Speaker 4: some of the interesting clinical trials and research that they're
Speaker 4: exploring is how microdosine can help with PMDD, which I
Speaker 4: believe is post menstrual dysphoric disorder. Yeah, they're also looking
Speaker 4: at how microdocin can help with inflammation or immune relate
Speaker 4: autoimmune conditions like lime disease, shingles, and other potential things
Speaker 4: like that, because it seems to be having some sort
Speaker 4: of physiological effect. My you know, I talked about the
Speaker 4: neuroplasticity and the sort of effect and the amigdala. The
Speaker 4: more sort of foundational clinically established benefits. Psychedelics are anti inflammatory,
Speaker 4: and so inflammation in the body relates to a lot
Speaker 4: of chronic disease, and so I think some of these
Speaker 4: holistic benefits that people are noticing with microdosing is because
Speaker 4: it's helping to lower something that's called CRP, which is
Speaker 4: C reactive protein, which is a blood marker that's related
Speaker 4: to inflammation, and that's also helping what's sort of called
Speaker 4: like opening up the inner healing intelligence, so the body
Speaker 4: has more capacity to heal itself and be in sort
Speaker 4: of a healthy, regulated state.
Speaker 3: Talk a little bit about emotional deep depression. I've always
Speaker 3: been concerned about psychedelics and somebody who's got an emotional disturbance,
Speaker 3: but apparently in certain situations it's actually a benefit. Can
Speaker 3: you address that a little bit.
Speaker 4: So, depression has many causes, a lot of it they
Speaker 4: think is related to something called aces adverse childhood experiences,
Speaker 4: and this sort of early childhood early adolescents trauma tensively
Speaker 4: to states of depression, addiction, anxiety. So part of the
Speaker 4: efficacy with psychedelics is at high doses it opens a
Speaker 4: window of catharsis where these early traumatic experiences can be
Speaker 4: healed in many ways, and that's often in a therapeutic container,
Speaker 4: therapeutic alliance with someone who's well trained and well established.
Speaker 4: So all this to say, like, if someone is depressed
Speaker 4: and they're interest in psychodelic find a great therapist, go
Speaker 4: to our directory.
Speaker 1: We have some.
Speaker 4: So part of it from an emotional well being is
Speaker 4: the sort of sadness, the grief, these these difficult emotional
Speaker 4: states that have been repressed for so long. Psychedelics allow
Speaker 4: an experience of that to come to the surface. The
Speaker 4: second thing that I'll emphasize based on what we've seen
Speaker 4: is going on in the brain is people who are
Speaker 4: depressed have an overactive default mode network. And a default
Speaker 4: mode network is a network in the brain, and the
Speaker 4: default mode network is tied to like what our brain
Speaker 4: is like in our sort of habitual just default state,
Speaker 4: and people who are depressed have a very overactive so
Speaker 4: it's very sort of rigid and constrained, and when you
Speaker 4: take a psychedelic it softens that default mode network, it.
Speaker 1: Sort of opens it up.
Speaker 4: And we even see this with brain imaging where psychedelics
Speaker 4: actually help to regrow dendrites, and dendrites are sort of
Speaker 4: these tips of neurons and and regrowing dendrites is helping
Speaker 4: to create once again greater connect greater connectivity between both
Speaker 4: hemispheres of the of the brain. So it's partly emotional,
Speaker 4: it's partly neurobiological, and then I think at high doses
Speaker 4: it's also partly spiritual. And people have these high dose
Speaker 4: experiences and they feel connected to source, God, nature, the mystery,
Speaker 4: you know, whatever you want to call it, aliens even
Speaker 4: something greater than ourselves that we don't really know anything about.
Speaker 1: It allows us to heal.
Speaker 4: And we've seen this in clinical research where they've given
Speaker 4: people with terminal cancer high doses of psychedelics with very
Speaker 4: high levels of depression and anxiety. And now for people
Speaker 4: go through with the experience, you're like, oh, death is
Speaker 4: nothing to fear. Actually, it's just a transition into what's
Speaker 4: coming next.
Speaker 3: I know you're not running a clinic there, Paul, but
Speaker 3: do you have some case studies of people that may
Speaker 3: have been not necessarily or maybe necessarily chronically depressed who
Speaker 3: use your protocol and kind of saw things a little
Speaker 3: differently after a few weeks of therapy.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: So we have we partner with a company called mind
Speaker 4: Bloom that has telemedicineketymine, and so we've had dozens of
Speaker 4: people in our community go through that protocol and that experience.
Speaker 4: And you know, there's one person in particular who was
Speaker 4: in I think she was in her late thirties who
Speaker 4: had been struggling with suicidality for a long time, and
Speaker 4: ketamine is really effective and useful helping to get someone
Speaker 4: out of suicidality, and ever since she started her ketemine
Speaker 4: treatment and then had ongoing microdosing and therapeutic support, none
Speaker 4: of that's come back. It's been really powerful and helping
Speaker 4: to manage the suicidality.
Speaker 1: I'd say.
Speaker 4: The other interesting anecdote is there's a woman probably in
Speaker 4: her mid fifties who has gone through several of our
Speaker 4: microdocene experiences because a lot of people do it the
Speaker 4: first time and then they want to come back, and
Speaker 4: we allow alumni or folks to come back. And she's
Speaker 4: gone through three of our experiences now. In the first one,
Speaker 4: which happened about a year ago, very depressed un SSR eyes,
Speaker 4: you know, was really struggling. About a year later, she's
Speaker 4: off ss her eyes and it's over zoom, but I
Speaker 4: can still tell she has much more vitality, vivaciousness, ormood
Speaker 4: or energy has improved quite a bit. And so we
Speaker 4: see this again and again and again. But I think
Speaker 4: the key thing to emphasize with this is that microdocing
Speaker 4: and psychedelics generally are not a magic pill. We're so
Speaker 4: conditioned to think, oh, if I just take this, it'll
Speaker 4: fix it. The key oftentimes for long term support with
Speaker 4: something like depression is there's actually behavioral changes that are
Speaker 4: implemented as a result of that neuroplasticity that occurs as psychedelics,
Speaker 4: so eating differently, moving more, getting better sleep, having the
Speaker 4: courage to form intimate relationships. A lot of these practices
Speaker 4: also relate to depression, and so by actually weaving in
Speaker 4: practices that support and psychedelics are a tool or a
Speaker 4: catalyst to help that. But I'm always hesitant to over
Speaker 4: encourage people or to encourage people to overrely on psychedelics,
Speaker 4: because I think it can be kind of we get
Speaker 4: back stuck in that loop of oh, the only way
Speaker 4: I'm going to feel better is if I take this drug.
Speaker 4: And I think we want that drug with psychedelics to help.
Speaker 4: But it's really the integrative practices on a day to
Speaker 4: day basis that make the difference.
Speaker 3: That's fantastic. I got a copy of your book late
Speaker 3: last night. I didn't get a chance to really look
Speaker 3: at it, but I want you to talk really briefly
Speaker 3: about this book is available on Amazon, and when did
Speaker 3: you release it? Was it a couple of years ago?
Speaker 1: Yeah, twenty two, And.
Speaker 3: It has a protocols you're discussing with us right now,
Speaker 3: but it goes into a number of different chapters on
Speaker 3: specific applications, and give us just a highlight about it.
Speaker 3: And if you could. Towards the end, you got a
Speaker 3: chapter called better Leadership through MICRODOS, which I thought was
Speaker 3: and I didn't get a chance to read it, damn it.
Speaker 3: But give us just a hint of what you're hope
Speaker 3: is for the leaders in the company CEOs.
Speaker 4: Yeah, So the sort of the quick overview of this is,
Speaker 4: you know, in business, we live in an environment that's
Speaker 4: more than ever constantly changing, and it's also you know,
Speaker 4: being asked of more than just bottom line. And I
Speaker 4: hinted at this before, and so in my understanding of
Speaker 4: the sort of entrepreneurial landscape, substances or tools that can
Speaker 4: be used with intention that help facilitate neuroplasticity, to help
Speaker 4: us become more adaptable, to help us have a more
Speaker 4: regulated nervous system, they're going to be more and more
Speaker 4: in demand. And also in the age of AI, creativity
Speaker 4: innovation is a lot of what's talked about, because the
Speaker 4: capacity to be creative is really, I think our sort
Speaker 4: of human calling, and so substances that help to facilitate
Speaker 4: greater creativity will help in this landscape of what's called
Speaker 4: the Fuka landscape, so volatility, uncertainty, and there's the CNA
Speaker 4: I don't really remember, but it's it's fuka if.
Speaker 1: You look it up.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And so my hope is that the use of
Speaker 4: psychedelics will help people to come back into their heart,
Speaker 4: will help them to make choices and decisions from that place,
Speaker 4: while also supporting you know, cognitive function and and sort
Speaker 4: of day to day mood and energy and so that
Speaker 4: that sort of fleshed out in Mastering Microdocing and even
Speaker 4: the title of the book, Mastering Microdosing, a lot of
Speaker 4: what we talk about is how microdocing and psychedelics generally
Speaker 4: are a skill that we can cultivate. So just like
Speaker 4: we can learn to read, write, cook, you know, martial arts,
Speaker 4: play a musical instrument, we can also learn to work
Speaker 4: with psychedelics in a way that is that is beneficial,
Speaker 4: and it requires mentorship, it requires education, and it requires community.
Speaker 4: Right those those I think are the three things. Mentorship, education, community,
Speaker 4: and that allows us to really cultivate that that skill
Speaker 4: of microdis and your that skill of psychedelics.
Speaker 3: This has been amazing, Paul, I want to thank you
Speaker 3: for joining me. I was like, I mean, I'm listening
Speaker 3: to you going and I have never taken LSD or
Speaker 3: any of that. I've always been a little fearful of
Speaker 3: it because I always consider myself half crazy and if
Speaker 3: I take it, I'm going to go off the edge,
Speaker 3: you know. And in the when I was a kid,
Speaker 3: you know, it's like you drop acid, you think you
Speaker 3: can fly, and you always heard about these idiots trying
Speaker 3: to jump off of buildings and all that kind of
Speaker 3: crazy crap. But this is a whole different era and
Speaker 3: a whole different way of looking at it. So give
Speaker 3: us the contact information how people can get a hold
Speaker 3: of you and your social media.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I'm on Instagram, LinkedIn and Twitter. Paul Austin
Speaker 4: three W I think is my handle there the third
Speaker 4: Wave dot co. So the third Wave dot Co. That's
Speaker 4: the main educational platform. You can find all of our
Speaker 4: free guides, the podcast, the directory. We also have a
Speaker 4: training program for practice coaches, doctors, therapists if there are
Speaker 4: any folks who are interested in deepening in this work.
Speaker 4: We do a ten month training program that includes a
Speaker 4: retreat in Costa Rica and then my my personal.
Speaker 1: Website is Paul Austin dot Co.
Speaker 4: I do some one to one work with folks as well,
Speaker 4: like more entrepreneurs and and folks like that who are
Speaker 4: looking to work with this. So that's Paul Austin dot Co.
Speaker 3: So and the and the book again, is it a
Speaker 3: self guide? You actually have the protocol listed, people can
Speaker 3: follow through and do it on their own.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and the book is a great place for that
Speaker 4: mastering microducing. On Amazon, you can order hard kindle, Paperbacker,
Speaker 4: or hardcover.
Speaker 3: Paul amazing, dude, fantastic. Uh before I let you go,
Speaker 3: are you, guys, is third Wave unique or are you
Speaker 3: seeing competitors? I don't think. I mean, I'm here in California.
Speaker 3: We're pretty much on the top of stuff. I think
Speaker 3: you're totally unique. But maybe you know more about it
Speaker 3: than I do.
Speaker 1: I'm glad. I'm glad that you have that impression.
Speaker 4: That's a that's that's great for you, you know, great for
Speaker 4: me breath. So I would say we're unique and that
Speaker 4: we're probably we're the only really educational platform that's exploring
Speaker 4: this overlap of microdosing, psychedelics and leadership, performance and well being.
Speaker 4: There are there are a couple other podcasts and educational platforms,
Speaker 4: but they're much more focused on you know, the clinical
Speaker 4: application or drug policy. There's there's also you know, a
Speaker 4: lot of biotech so drug development companies that I've started,
Speaker 4: and also training companies. So like three and a half
Speaker 4: billion dollars has been invested in the psychedelics space over
Speaker 4: the last five years. There's several publicly traded biotech companies
Speaker 4: that are bringing certain types of psychedelics through clinical trials
Speaker 4: to get up to approval. But again I'm I'm less
Speaker 4: interested in this is a whole nother conversation, the overt medicalization.
Speaker 4: I'm more interested in supporting the my celial network. And
Speaker 4: I think third Wave is that my celial network, and
Speaker 4: I see it both as an educational platform but also
Speaker 4: a movement that if we can integrate uh, these these
Speaker 4: these these substances, these tools into our day to day,
Speaker 4: I think they'll just help everyone at least a little bit,
Speaker 4: which which we all need.
Speaker 3: So what do you see How do you see yourself
Speaker 3: evolving in the next five or ten years? What do
Speaker 3: you see you see like offices in every major city,
Speaker 3: do you see yourself? I mean, because you can do
Speaker 3: a lot just where you are in San Diego. You
Speaker 3: can just have you know, have people in different locations.
Speaker 4: My love is teaching and education, so I would love,
Speaker 4: you know, we have our own training program where we
Speaker 4: developing more. I'd love can we get you know, training
Speaker 4: into medical schools and graduate programs and undergrad so folks
Speaker 4: can start learning about psychedelics in professional education. I also,
Speaker 4: you know, I'd love I'm looking forward to the day
Speaker 4: when you know, I can train the creative team at
Speaker 4: Apple and how to use microdosis and it's totally illegitimate.
Speaker 1: And above board.
Speaker 4: So I'm really curious about this overlap of you know,
Speaker 4: business and and microducne and and you know, can can
Speaker 4: we support people and in doing that? And then and
Speaker 4: then I have a second book coming out as well
Speaker 4: next year, and so a lot of my time and
Speaker 4: energy has really spent on writing, reading, kind of thought leadership, cool,
Speaker 4: tough podcasting.
Speaker 1: But those are those are a few of my hopes.
Speaker 1: There you got you.
Speaker 3: Got really good energy, Paul. I think you're going to
Speaker 3: be like a keep keep doing it. You're going to
Speaker 3: be a steak jobs on your own. Thanks. I appreciate
Speaker 3: he Thanks for journeing me. Man I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: This is fun.
Speaker 3: Thank you. Hey. If you ever thought about an exotic tour,
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Speaker 3: slash tours. This is not to be missed. I'm looking
Speaker 3: forward to reading Paul's book. I have a lot of
Speaker 3: questions about LSD. I did mushrooms when I was in college,
Speaker 3: and for the most part I enjoy them, but asually
Speaker 3: would get a really strong But I think I've done
Speaker 3: a handful of time, maybe three times. The first time
Speaker 3: was crushed up. My cousin gave me a couple of
Speaker 3: gel caps that were crushed mushroom and it kind of
Speaker 3: reminded me of a really strong cannabis, except there was
Speaker 3: more visuals. And then the second time, it was actual
Speaker 3: mushrooms that I somebody baked for me. And I think
Speaker 3: at that time, I we're talking decades ago. I think
Speaker 3: at that time baking mushrooms was not advised. But they
Speaker 3: baked them in a cake or was it a brownie?
Speaker 3: Might have been a brownie. And I was at a
Speaker 3: party and I had those and a couple of glasses
Speaker 3: of wine and I was toast. And then the third time,
Speaker 3: I was just bored and someone gave me some mushrooms.
Speaker 3: But they weren't they had been dried too much or something.
Speaker 3: They were they were they weren't very very powerful. So
Speaker 3: the experience that Paul is describing maybe something to consider
Speaker 3: if you can take low enough dose. I mean, he's
Speaker 3: taken LSD micro dosing LSD for work. It's funny as hell,
Speaker 3: But I guess if it's a microdose, I guess you
Speaker 3: don't have to worry about getting incapacitated, because that would
Speaker 3: be my fear or being you know, so involved in
Speaker 3: the actual experience that you can't function. So this microdosing
Speaker 3: is is great, and I'm glad we had him on
Speaker 3: the program because I just didn't understand it, you know,
Speaker 3: And he didn't talk once about ayahuasca. I don't think you.
Speaker 3: I don't think ayahuasca falls into the psych second. It's
Speaker 3: a psychedelic, but it doesn't fall into microdosing narrative, which
Speaker 3: is it's an entirely different animal because I think the
Speaker 3: properties of that of that plant medicine are much different.
Speaker 3: But that was fun and I got to get that
Speaker 3: book Mastering microdose scenes and I'll let you know what
Speaker 3: I think. Wow, amazing. Hey, if you're enjoying Destiny Earth
Speaker 3: Ancients and Earth Ancients Special Edition in the Archives, please
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Speaker 3: Ancients and subscribe. Really appreciate it. All right, that's it
Speaker 3: for this program. I want to tek my guest today,
Speaker 3: Paul Austen, coming to us from San Diego, California. As always,
Speaker 3: the team of Gail Tour, Mark Foster, and everyone who
Speaker 3: makes this thing happen. You guys rock, all right, take
Speaker 3: care of me well, and we'll talk to you next time.