WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:05.519 Ask not what your country can do for you, ask 2 00:00:05.599 --> 00:00:07.480 what you can do for your country. 3 00:00:08.199 --> 00:00:12.039 Mister garbach offf tear down this wall. 4 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:16.239 It's the Ricochet Podcast. Well, I'm James Lylyx with Charles C. W. 5 00:00:16.399 --> 00:00:18.800 Cook and Stephen Hayward. Today we talked to Josh Hammer 6 00:00:18.800 --> 00:00:22.679 about rising anti Semitism the right. So let's have ourselves 7 00:00:22.719 --> 00:00:25.239 a podcast. This is not how an adult grieves the 8 00:00:25.280 --> 00:00:27.239 murder of somebody called a friend. This is how a 9 00:00:27.239 --> 00:00:29.079 four year old morn's a goldfish. 10 00:00:29.160 --> 00:00:32.479 Okay, Jimmy Kimmel is not a talented person. He had 11 00:00:32.560 --> 00:00:34.359 very bad ratings and they should have fired him a 12 00:00:34.359 --> 00:00:36.840 long time ago. So you know you can call that 13 00:00:36.880 --> 00:00:39.679 free speech or not. He was fired for lack of talent. 14 00:00:40.840 --> 00:00:43.679 Welcome everybody, It's the Ricochet Podcast, number seven hundred and 15 00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:48.840 fifty eight. I'm James Lylyx in Minneapolis, overcast a tumnal beautiful, 16 00:00:49.159 --> 00:00:52.560 Charles C. W. Cook in Florida, Stephen Hayward. We presume 17 00:00:52.640 --> 00:00:56.439 in California, and gentlemen, the days of Joan Embry shown 18 00:00:56.520 --> 00:00:59.560 up and bringing a marmoset who peas on Johnny Carson's 19 00:00:59.560 --> 00:01:02.479 coat is those days are gone, and the talk show 20 00:01:02.759 --> 00:01:05.120 is gone. And frankly, I don't care what Kevin Stoleber 21 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:07.920 or Kimmy Jimmel say, because they're babbling to the bubble, 22 00:01:08.400 --> 00:01:11.000 and if the market wants to take care of them, 23 00:01:10.599 --> 00:01:13.439 then the market will. But what we have now is 24 00:01:13.480 --> 00:01:15.760 something that sort of has the taint, the faint with 25 00:01:16.480 --> 00:01:20.640 of a government leaning, shall we say, And you could say, no, 26 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:24.000 simply a business proposition, but the prospect of a merger 27 00:01:24.040 --> 00:01:28.200 concentrates in a man's mind wonderfully, Samuel Johnson said, And 28 00:01:28.280 --> 00:01:31.760 so it may not have been a strictly business decision 29 00:01:31.840 --> 00:01:38.079 after all. So I'm sort of quasi uncomfortable about a 30 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:38.680 lot of this. 31 00:01:39.680 --> 00:01:43.280 But what say you, Well, it seems to me the 32 00:01:43.319 --> 00:01:46.519 Trump administration made two unforced airrs this week, probably more 33 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:49.200 than two. But on these particular issues. You at first 34 00:01:49.239 --> 00:01:52.959 Pam Bondi coming out saying we're going to prosecute hate speech, 35 00:01:53.079 --> 00:01:55.200 and you know, this was idiotic, and she tried to 36 00:01:55.239 --> 00:01:57.799 walk it back a little and say she only meant incitement. 37 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:01.400 But that's not new. And although part of me thinks 38 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:03.760 that this is their genius move to make the left 39 00:02:04.280 --> 00:02:06.319 come out and say no, no hate speech is protected 40 00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:09.280 under the First Amendment, which you know, it's sort of 41 00:02:09.360 --> 00:02:12.199 like when Trump made the Democrats come out against policing 42 00:02:12.280 --> 00:02:15.120 crime here a few weeks ago with the National Guarden Washington, 43 00:02:15.560 --> 00:02:19.039 but then the other one that is more worrying. And 44 00:02:19.120 --> 00:02:21.680 I think here Charlie and I, Charlie Cook and I 45 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:24.439 are in heated agreement, or certainly the National editors I 46 00:02:24.479 --> 00:02:27.080 read that it was a mistake for the FCC to 47 00:02:27.080 --> 00:02:30.000 throw its way around. Yeah, and so I think the 48 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:33.840 marketplace would have dictated this decision anyway. I think the 49 00:02:34.159 --> 00:02:39.039 Sinclair and what's the other independent stations that said we're 50 00:02:39.039 --> 00:02:41.479 going to dump the show would have reached that same point. 51 00:02:41.960 --> 00:02:44.280 And I'll bet ABC was looking for its own reason 52 00:02:44.280 --> 00:02:46.280 to pull the plug on Kimmel because his ratings were 53 00:02:46.319 --> 00:02:48.960 worse Colbert's and has to be losing an equal amount 54 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:52.560 of money. And the right remedy, of course, is to 55 00:02:52.599 --> 00:02:55.280 abolish the FCC. And who knows, you know, you might 56 00:02:55.360 --> 00:02:58.759 just get enough Democrats to vote for doing that if 57 00:02:58.800 --> 00:03:01.240 it was proposed by Republicans, if they have the wit 58 00:03:01.360 --> 00:03:01.719 to do it. 59 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:06.319 Charlie, Well, as I joked on the editor's podcast, I'm 60 00:03:06.400 --> 00:03:09.439 very pleased that we are as a country now or 61 00:03:09.719 --> 00:03:13.599 in violent agreement, that there's no such thing as hate speech, 62 00:03:14.599 --> 00:03:18.960 that it's fine for private companies to refuse service if 63 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:21.560 they don't want to be implicated by the speech of 64 00:03:21.599 --> 00:03:25.000 their customers, And that the FCC should at no point 65 00:03:25.120 --> 00:03:28.479 interfere in the free marketplace of ideas. Because these are 66 00:03:28.599 --> 00:03:31.599 three propositions that I've been writing about for fifteen years, 67 00:03:31.599 --> 00:03:35.000 and usually the critiques that I get come from the left. Now, 68 00:03:35.000 --> 00:03:38.199 that doesn't in any way excuse what Pam Bondi said 69 00:03:39.039 --> 00:03:43.000 last Monday, and it doesn't in any way excuse what 70 00:03:43.080 --> 00:03:48.520 Brendan Carr said. I disagree profamily with both of those claims, 71 00:03:48.719 --> 00:03:51.520 but I am a little bit perplexed to see the 72 00:03:51.599 --> 00:03:55.919 left jumping around and screaming in support of the proposition 73 00:03:56.120 --> 00:04:00.039 that there is something intrinsically corrupt or liberal about the 74 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:04.680 FCC making demands in return for issuing licenses. Is this 75 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:06.800 a new position? I hope it is. I hope we'll 76 00:04:06.840 --> 00:04:10.960 get out of Congress a bipartisan law that abolishes the FCC, which, 77 00:04:11.000 --> 00:04:13.400 by the way, is possible. I've seen some people try 78 00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:16.399 to actually this one, but it is possible. It was 79 00:04:16.439 --> 00:04:20.839 possible in nineteen thirty four, when the communications Act was written. 80 00:04:20.839 --> 00:04:24.040 It was possible in the nineteen sixties when the Kennedy 81 00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:27.360 administration was going after conservatives on the radio, and it 82 00:04:27.399 --> 00:04:30.639 is definitely possible now in an age in which the 83 00:04:30.680 --> 00:04:34.040 Internet and satellite and cable predominate, and in which the 84 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:37.319 only reason the FCC has any control over ABC whatsoever 85 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:40.879 is that a very small part of ABC is delivered 86 00:04:40.959 --> 00:04:43.480 via the airwaves. And this is the weird thing, isn't it. 87 00:04:44.120 --> 00:04:47.800 Most people do not consume ABC over the airwaves, but 88 00:04:47.879 --> 00:04:51.160 because some do, it has full control in the areas 89 00:04:51.199 --> 00:04:53.800 over which it has control over ABC, whereas it has 90 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.279 no control whatsoever over say, Netflix, because nobody gets Netflix 91 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:01.399 over the air. The fact if this wasn't revisited already 92 00:05:01.480 --> 00:05:03.879 is bizarre to me now I think it should be. 93 00:05:03.959 --> 00:05:06.040 That's not to excuse Brendan Carr, who has done a 94 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.319 complete one, A two and everything he ever said until 95 00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:10.519 about eight months ago. It's not to say it isn't 96 00:05:10.519 --> 00:05:13.040 worrying to see what he said. I'm slightly skeptical that's 97 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:14.920 actually what did this, but it still matters that he 98 00:05:15.000 --> 00:05:17.839 said it. But this is the moment we have unity 99 00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.319 on the core question. We have the left feeling of 100 00:05:20.399 --> 00:05:22.480 grieved because they may have been targeted by the right. 101 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.720 We have the right that has for years said the 102 00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:27.199 FCC is two powerful, let's do something about it. 103 00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:27.879 Well. 104 00:05:27.920 --> 00:05:29.680 The good thing is, of course, is that wait that 105 00:05:29.759 --> 00:05:32.920 now that we're all agreement on these bedrock principles, this 106 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:36.680 is an agreement that will last forever. Fun there is 107 00:05:36.720 --> 00:05:40.519 a fundamental realization the lightning has flashed and engraved in 108 00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:43.959 the minds of both these true principles from which they 109 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:46.319 will never stray. The idea that the other side would 110 00:05:46.319 --> 00:05:48.879 get in power and instantly abandon those things that made 111 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:52.120 them angry a few years ago, it was preposterous to me. 112 00:05:52.199 --> 00:05:53.399 But anyway, Stephen, you were going to. 113 00:05:53.399 --> 00:05:56.759 Say, Well, if I was in the mode of dialogue 114 00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.560 like Charlie Kirk, I would like to have a line 115 00:05:58.560 --> 00:06:01.120 of liberals to whom I would ask, what does the 116 00:06:01.160 --> 00:06:04.680 FCC actually do and why is it important to keep it? 117 00:06:04.759 --> 00:06:06.680 And I'll bet they couldn't give you answers to either 118 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:08.680 one of those questions, but I'm sure there will be 119 00:06:09.399 --> 00:06:11.240 a residual of them, at least to say, oh, we 120 00:06:11.279 --> 00:06:13.399 can't get rid of a great new deal agency. It's 121 00:06:13.439 --> 00:06:14.600 from the new or something like that. 122 00:06:14.720 --> 00:06:17.800 Right I mean when I first got into radio, the 123 00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:20.720 fairness doctrine was still in a friend and that resulted 124 00:06:20.759 --> 00:06:22.600 in some of the most boring programming you'll every year 125 00:06:22.600 --> 00:06:24.199 in your life, you know, at one o'clock in the morning, 126 00:06:24.199 --> 00:06:25.920 when they have to slap something on to be fair. 127 00:06:26.920 --> 00:06:28.800 And that was abolished. And everybody said that that was 128 00:06:28.839 --> 00:06:31.439 the absolute death of everything, and it wasn't. It was 129 00:06:31.480 --> 00:06:33.759 sort of the net neutrality of its day. But I 130 00:06:33.800 --> 00:06:37.240 wouldn't doubt that actually there would be some attempt to 131 00:06:37.279 --> 00:06:41.839 codify and regulate, you know, to bring the left has 132 00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:44.439 been the morning to bring back the fairness doctrine since forever, 133 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.680 mainly because of Russia, Limbaugh. Now that AM radio doesn't 134 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:50.279 have the power and reach that it did, they don't 135 00:06:50.279 --> 00:06:53.120 seem to be so many cries for it. But yes, 136 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.480 so we're in a tent for tat war and the 137 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.439 idea that there's here's what here's what I find interesting. 138 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.120 Nobody is calling for a truce here. Nobody's saying, wait 139 00:07:02.120 --> 00:07:04.959 a minute, this is getting out of hand. Let's all 140 00:07:05.000 --> 00:07:08.240 step back, let's all over the temperature. Because there's just 141 00:07:08.439 --> 00:07:13.399 so much built up resentment about cancel culture that nobody, 142 00:07:13.680 --> 00:07:16.639 everybody simply wants to give the horses their rain. Nobody 143 00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:19.680 wishes to go back because it would be self defeating. 144 00:07:20.319 --> 00:07:22.839 It would give the other side a win. And frankly, 145 00:07:22.839 --> 00:07:24.920 there are a lot of scores to settle. That is 146 00:07:24.959 --> 00:07:27.959 not a good political environment. But it's what we were 147 00:07:27.959 --> 00:07:34.680 warning about. It's what we got because norms, precious norms, 148 00:07:34.920 --> 00:07:38.600 were shredded and fed to the wind right Or do 149 00:07:38.639 --> 00:07:40.839 you think that there's eventually going to be some you know, 150 00:07:40.959 --> 00:07:43.240 some tiring on the right. You know what, We've gone 151 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:47.279 too far. We've got a kindergarten teachers fired in Montana 152 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:49.480 for saying that Charlie Kirk was a Nanzi. I think 153 00:07:49.519 --> 00:07:52.120 that's we've gone too far. I don't. I don't. I 154 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:55.199 don't think so. I don't see any desire for abatement 155 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:57.519 on the right at all. 156 00:07:57.720 --> 00:08:00.560 Well, no, and I also think that look that the 157 00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:03.120 left likes every instrument of power it can grab. 158 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:03.439 You. 159 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:06.439 Charlie mentioned that back in the Kennedy years, the FCC 160 00:08:06.600 --> 00:08:11.199 was leveraged to squeeze out conservative radio programming. The other 161 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:13.680 thing the FCC has done over the years is press 162 00:08:13.720 --> 00:08:15.639 the diversity racket. 163 00:08:15.720 --> 00:08:15.879 Right. 164 00:08:16.120 --> 00:08:18.959 They going back to the nineties, they were pressuring radio 165 00:08:19.000 --> 00:08:21.199 stations to add minorities to their board of directors and 166 00:08:21.240 --> 00:08:23.399 so forth. They're going to be very low thinking of 167 00:08:23.439 --> 00:08:26.240 those kinds of ways of leveraging all the federal agencies, 168 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:29.319 but especially in the broadcast area. But I want to 169 00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:32.360 think about the fairness doctrine, right, James. I've always have 170 00:08:32.480 --> 00:08:36.120 to patiently instruct people who say, you know, Fox News 171 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:37.720 couldn't get away with what they do if we had 172 00:08:37.720 --> 00:08:40.279 the fairnest doctrine, and I remind them that it only 173 00:08:40.279 --> 00:08:43.679 applied to broadcast media. And then even if you brought 174 00:08:43.720 --> 00:08:46.399 back a fairness doctrine, it would not apply to Fox 175 00:08:46.399 --> 00:08:50.679 News or any other cable channel CNM, MSNBC. And moreover, 176 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.759 I'll bet even the existing Supreme Court that upheld the 177 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:57.159 fairness doctrine I think in nineteen sixty eight or nineteen 178 00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:00.000 sixty nine, would not do so today because it was very, 179 00:09:00.039 --> 00:09:03.039 very circumstantial on the scarcity of the airwaves. That was 180 00:09:03.080 --> 00:09:05.840 really the level of the decision, and that today is 181 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.440 rendered completely obsolete for all the obvious reasons already mentioned. 182 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:12.559 Well, Charles, are you are you worried that this administration 183 00:09:12.679 --> 00:09:15.200 might have set up something called Oh, I don't know 184 00:09:15.279 --> 00:09:22.440 the Disinformation Governance Board. Look because they did not this one. 185 00:09:22.440 --> 00:09:24.840 But they did. But they did, and it lasted about 186 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:30.519 six months or so. But we had two. 187 00:09:30.320 --> 00:09:34.639 Supreme Court cases in the last term that dealt with 188 00:09:34.679 --> 00:09:40.320 this question of jaw boning. The first one went nowhere 189 00:09:40.720 --> 00:09:44.679 for lack of standing justice alitot a really good descent. 190 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.519 The second one was nine to nothing. There is no 191 00:09:48.600 --> 00:09:54.360 doubt that the federal government is unable to do via 192 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:59.120 pressure on private organizations what it could not do directly. 193 00:09:59.360 --> 00:10:02.159 Brendan Carr cross that line, whether or not he actually 194 00:10:02.200 --> 00:10:06.039 did anything. He crossed that line by suggesting that he 195 00:10:06.120 --> 00:10:11.759 wanted to. But if you read the first decision, which 196 00:10:11.840 --> 00:10:15.799 was conveniently swept aside by the standing holding and thereby 197 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:23.200 taken out of the left's peripheral vision, the details are 198 00:10:23.360 --> 00:10:29.559 absolutely chilling. It runs through years and year's worth of 199 00:10:29.679 --> 00:10:34.679 Biden administration pressure on private social media entities. And the 200 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:40.519 fact that the Court concluded that the connection between the 201 00:10:40.759 --> 00:10:44.679 speech and the harms was too tenuous to yield a 202 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:49.120 ruling doesn't make what is in there as fact that 203 00:10:49.159 --> 00:10:53.360 all members of the court acknowledge any different. So I'm 204 00:10:53.360 --> 00:10:56.200 with you on this. It's why I started by joking 205 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:01.279 that we're now united. The notion that this is a 206 00:11:01.559 --> 00:11:05.600 conservative invention is preposterous. That doesn't mean we should do it. 207 00:11:05.600 --> 00:11:10.320 It doesn't make it okay. But I'm a little annoyed. 208 00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:12.720 And it's why, although I've said I'm bothered by it, 209 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:14.559 I'm not going to go to the mats on this 210 00:11:14.600 --> 00:11:17.159 one and write twelve pieces on it because I'm a 211 00:11:17.200 --> 00:11:23.480 little annoyed to watch the what's the word opportunism. I mean, 212 00:11:23.480 --> 00:11:26.159 We've had people in the last twenty four hours saying 213 00:11:26.159 --> 00:11:27.840 that this is the worst thing that has ever happened 214 00:11:27.879 --> 00:11:31.519 to American free speech. We've had people saying, I think 215 00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:34.440 Eric Swalwell, that this is exactly what the Nazis did 216 00:11:34.480 --> 00:11:39.039 in nineteen thirty four. We've had people suggesting that this 217 00:11:39.159 --> 00:11:43.120 represents a wholesale betrayal of principle that has essentially reversed 218 00:11:43.120 --> 00:11:45.519 the positions of the two parties on free speech. And 219 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:49.320 I'm sorry. I will happily condemn Brendan Karr for his words. 220 00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:51.360 I will happily say the SEC shouldn't do this, and 221 00:11:51.360 --> 00:11:53.679 I'll happily said it shouldn't exist. But I'm just not 222 00:11:53.759 --> 00:11:56.759 indulging that nonsense. You guys can go to hell with that. 223 00:11:57.799 --> 00:12:02.519 No, that's I mean Jasis overshadowed in its terrible impact 224 00:12:02.559 --> 00:12:04.840 on the nation, any of the riots that burned down 225 00:12:04.879 --> 00:12:09.120 sections of American cities, and in this case, the deplatforming, 226 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:12.320 if you will, of Jimmy Kimmel is worse than anything 227 00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:16.440 that happened on the Twitter files or kicking Trump off Twitter, 228 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:19.919 or firing actors for beliefs. You know, when was the 229 00:12:19.960 --> 00:12:21.759 last time he saw James Wood movie? He had to 230 00:12:21.759 --> 00:12:24.519 be about three movies every year. None of that stuff 231 00:12:24.600 --> 00:12:27.360 actually really happened, and if it did, it was good. 232 00:12:29.039 --> 00:12:30.960 That's part of it. The amnesia is part of it. Now, 233 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:33.159 it's interesting some people have pointed out that the FCC 234 00:12:33.320 --> 00:12:38.200 regulations actually do give them power because they prohibit quote 235 00:12:38.240 --> 00:12:43.600 broadcast hoaxes and the intentional distortion of news. And you think, well, 236 00:12:44.440 --> 00:12:49.320 obviously that's not being applied very often. There are conditions 237 00:12:49.320 --> 00:12:53.120 that have to be met, knowledge of falsity, foreseeable public harm, 238 00:12:53.159 --> 00:12:55.279 and direct public arm. So one could make the point 239 00:12:55.279 --> 00:12:57.759 that somebody could listen to what Kimmel said and say, yeah, 240 00:12:57.759 --> 00:12:59.879 it was a right wing Nick Fuent's groper type, who 241 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.120 I'm going to go out and shoot one of those, 242 00:13:02.519 --> 00:13:04.200 in which case you could make the point that the 243 00:13:04.240 --> 00:13:09.360 FCC might have irrationale for dabbling. But I agree with you, Charlie. 244 00:13:09.360 --> 00:13:11.240 I agree with this statement was made. The chilling effect 245 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:14.200 is there. But again, where have these people been when 246 00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:16.639 what was done to Twitter? What was done to Twitter, 247 00:13:16.679 --> 00:13:19.039 what was done to Facebook? You've got Zuckberg saying, oh, 248 00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:21.120 they came to us and said, you can't. You got 249 00:13:21.120 --> 00:13:23.840 to shut this down. That's to me in the face 250 00:13:23.960 --> 00:13:29.159 of a much greater problem. The efficacy the virus is, 251 00:13:29.200 --> 00:13:32.000 the origins of them, the impact that was having on 252 00:13:32.080 --> 00:13:34.360 the lockdowns in the economy. I mean, we were the 253 00:13:34.440 --> 00:13:36.519 idea that you could have a full and frank discussion 254 00:13:36.519 --> 00:13:41.919 about those things. Forget about it. Forget about it. As 255 00:13:41.960 --> 00:13:43.879 long as we're talking about things in the past, let's 256 00:13:43.919 --> 00:13:46.360 talk about an organization that was formed by the Communist 257 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.399 Party in Germany during the thirties and the Bimar Republic, 258 00:13:49.879 --> 00:13:53.000 the anti fascist the Antifa. Well, they got the same flag. 259 00:13:53.799 --> 00:13:58.000 Now we're going to declare Antifa to be a terrorist organization. 260 00:13:58.440 --> 00:14:00.559 And of course many people have said that anti is 261 00:14:00.759 --> 00:14:05.840 an idea. You can't stop an idea. I actually think 262 00:14:05.840 --> 00:14:08.399 they're kind of a loosely organized organization with lots of 263 00:14:08.440 --> 00:14:11.759 little local cells and a general overriding set of principles. Hell, 264 00:14:12.159 --> 00:14:16.639 if they got a logo, they're an organization. Well. 265 00:14:16.679 --> 00:14:21.039 Look, I was on campus at Berkeley on February five, 266 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:25.720 twenty seventeen, for the Milo Unapolis riot, and I was 267 00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:28.200 up on a grassy knoll. I want to say a 268 00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:32.159 conspiracy right by sprout plaza and warnings was quite obvious 269 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:34.919 to me, is you could see the Antifa folks infiltrating 270 00:14:34.960 --> 00:14:39.279 from every direction, you know, dressed in black, carrying pipes, backpacks, 271 00:14:39.639 --> 00:14:43.240 masked up with walkie talkies, so they were in communication 272 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:46.039 with one another. Right, there's already a whole student protest 273 00:14:46.080 --> 00:14:49.320 and people yelling no hate speech on Berkeley, you know, 274 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:52.200 from bullhorns and stuff. But the NPIFA people came in 275 00:14:52.240 --> 00:14:55.159 and immediately started, you know, tipping over the generator for 276 00:14:55.200 --> 00:14:57.200 the lights, starting a fire and things of that kind. 277 00:14:57.240 --> 00:14:59.679 And then it's spilled out into a riot into the streets, 278 00:15:00.799 --> 00:15:03.759 among which you know a lot of students eagerly participated. 279 00:15:03.799 --> 00:15:06.240 But the point is is that that was an organized effort, 280 00:15:06.600 --> 00:15:10.159 coordinated and I'm sure they're using all of the various 281 00:15:10.200 --> 00:15:13.000 Internet tools for you know, the message was at snapchat 282 00:15:13.039 --> 00:15:15.919 where the messages disappear after ten seconds or something like that. 283 00:15:17.080 --> 00:15:19.080 And you know, we have a history of this. You know, 284 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:22.159 the FBI rolled up a lot of the Weather Underground 285 00:15:22.240 --> 00:15:25.360 and the militant chapters of the SDS fifty years ago 286 00:15:25.799 --> 00:15:29.320 made some mistakes, of course they always do, but we 287 00:15:29.360 --> 00:15:33.279 have and of course, you know Hoover infiltrated the Communist 288 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:36.120 Party what seventy eighty years ago to make sure that 289 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.279 well make sure, you know, suppress conspiratorial and violent designs 290 00:15:41.279 --> 00:15:44.279 and so forth. So you know there's precedent for this, 291 00:15:44.360 --> 00:15:46.399 and I'm completely down with it myself. 292 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:49.759 Well, Charlie, the difference may be here, whereas the student 293 00:15:49.879 --> 00:15:52.639 you know, the Weather in the Underground and SDS were 294 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:57.320 self formed and had their own tight little ideologies and 295 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:00.480 robbed banks to get along what we have here or 296 00:16:00.559 --> 00:16:03.600 organizations that may or may not they may be funded 297 00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:09.000 by NGOs themselves, backed by secretive you know, cats, stroking bond, 298 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.120 villain billionaire somewhere, and that the intent here is to 299 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:15.519 go after the organizations that give them money. Now there's 300 00:16:15.559 --> 00:16:17.960 a variety of cutouts through which it flows, but we 301 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.159 saw that they were investigating. I think it's armed queers 302 00:16:20.159 --> 00:16:23.240 of of Salt Lake City, and the person in charge 303 00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:25.960 of that is you know, pictures of her him on 304 00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:32.240 stage with Elizabeth Warren ties to Utah NGOs that get 305 00:16:32.320 --> 00:16:34.639 awards from the UN, which again it always makes you 306 00:16:34.679 --> 00:16:37.519 sound like a conspiracy nutcases tied to the UN. You know, 307 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:41.080 I regard the UN as a generally inefficacious, wordless organization 308 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.480 exception of a few things. But still there it is. 309 00:16:44.559 --> 00:16:48.000 There's the whole ngo thing, there's the whole little red 310 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:52.519 red lines of yarn on between thumbtacks on the on 311 00:16:52.559 --> 00:16:54.519 the big board. And if they go after the donors 312 00:16:54.840 --> 00:16:58.000 for this, it may be hard to prove, but it's 313 00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:58.519 a new tack. 314 00:16:59.600 --> 00:17:01.320 This is all going to be in the execution. 315 00:17:02.120 --> 00:17:06.960 And I think, oh, I'm not saying you shoot them, no, no, 316 00:17:07.079 --> 00:17:09.559 But I think it's an important distinction because I agree 317 00:17:09.599 --> 00:17:11.279 with you, and I've seen a lot of people say, 318 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:13.200 but what if this happened, wouldn't that be bad? 319 00:17:13.240 --> 00:17:15.680 And the answer is yes. If the government started going 320 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:18.279 after people for political donations or speech, that would be bad. 321 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:21.599 If the government started going after people who were assembling 322 00:17:22.279 --> 00:17:24.839 and petitioning the government, that would be bad, but all 323 00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:26.559 that has been announced thus far is that there will 324 00:17:26.599 --> 00:17:29.079 be an investigation. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. 325 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:31.079 And in fact, if you look back to the last 326 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:34.880 time we had widespread political violence in the United States, 327 00:17:34.880 --> 00:17:37.200 which was especially the period between the late sixties and 328 00:17:37.240 --> 00:17:40.640 early seventies, we had three thousand bombings in three years. 329 00:17:41.200 --> 00:17:44.279 We did stop that by going after the people who 330 00:17:44.279 --> 00:17:47.000 did it and their networks. I'm not saying they're identical networks. 331 00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.000 Perhaps there's nothing I yes, you know, it can be 332 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:50.680 a real squish on this stuff, but I don't have 333 00:17:50.759 --> 00:17:52.839 a problem with investigating it. 334 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:54.680 So we will see. And now we bring to the 335 00:17:54.680 --> 00:17:58.960 podcast Josh Hammer, political accommodat or attorney, columnist, senior editor 336 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:01.960 at large for news Week, host of The Josh Hammer Show, 337 00:18:02.039 --> 00:18:04.920 and he serves as senior counsel for the article three projects, 338 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:09.920 the author of Israel and Civilization, published earlier this year. Josh, welcome, 339 00:18:10.680 --> 00:18:14.200 It's a pleasure things for having well last week and 340 00:18:14.240 --> 00:18:18.200 a half or so. Oh boy, it' said a deep 341 00:18:18.200 --> 00:18:21.079 effect on all conservatives, and it doesn't always have to 342 00:18:21.079 --> 00:18:22.559 do with how much they knew Charlie. I think before 343 00:18:22.599 --> 00:18:24.440 his assassination I think there were two groups. There were 344 00:18:24.440 --> 00:18:26.720 people sort of knew him out there as a planet 345 00:18:26.839 --> 00:18:30.559 circuit in the firmament, a star, and there are others 346 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.640 who had were deeply immersed in what he was doing 347 00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.640 and what he was saying. And since his murder, a 348 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:39.680 lot of us have been going back to what he 349 00:18:39.720 --> 00:18:43.400 said and reacquainting ourselves with him or getting, you know, 350 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.680 a look for the first time at the nature of 351 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.440 his debate, in the nature of his arguments. But you 352 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.119 were there a lot earlier than that, If you could 353 00:18:52.119 --> 00:18:54.799 tell us how you got to know the late Charlie Kirk. 354 00:18:56.440 --> 00:18:59.799 Sure, So I first got to know Charlie when I 355 00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:02.279 was the opinion editor in Newsweek. I still work in 356 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:04.240 Newsweek in a slightly different capacity, but I ran the 357 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:06.559 op ed page there for about three years. When I 358 00:19:06.599 --> 00:19:09.000 took over at Charlie was one of our conservative columnists, 359 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:11.359 so he that's kind of how I got to know him. 360 00:19:11.359 --> 00:19:14.720 I got to know his executive producer on The Charlie 361 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:17.960 Kirk Show, Andrew Colvitt, as well, because Andrew was my 362 00:19:18.039 --> 00:19:21.519 main intermediary for the columns that Charlie was writing there. 363 00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.240 And you know, we kind of struck up a natural 364 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:26.559 affinity for one another. I spoke at a handful of 365 00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:30.880 Turning Point USA conferences over the years, not a ton. 366 00:19:30.599 --> 00:19:33.960 I wasn't a regular every conference, but you know, I 367 00:19:33.960 --> 00:19:36.000 did a handful. It was really only over the past 368 00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:38.720 year year and a half, I'd say they'll be starting 369 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:43.680 to get considerably closer. Charlie was very concerned about growing 370 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:46.720 anti Semitism and pockets of the American right. He was 371 00:19:46.839 --> 00:19:51.720 very concerned about rising anti Israel Zeltry. For lack of 372 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:55.720 bear description there, Charlie was very concerned also about maintaining 373 00:19:55.799 --> 00:20:01.000 an ecumenical Jewish Christian alliance, and he formed this group 374 00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:03.480 chat for me and a couple others they trusted there. 375 00:20:03.720 --> 00:20:07.839 He called us his brain trust for essentially for these 376 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:12.119 issues for Israel, for Jewish Christian relations, for nothing less 377 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.160 than trying to kind of forge a battle plan, for 378 00:20:14.200 --> 00:20:17.119 trying to keep this coalition together, for saving American by 379 00:20:17.200 --> 00:20:20.960 extension Western civilization. So we ended up chatting essentially every 380 00:20:21.039 --> 00:20:23.880 day in this chat and elsewhere over the past year 381 00:20:24.559 --> 00:20:25.119 year and a half. 382 00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:25.680 We ended up. 383 00:20:25.680 --> 00:20:28.319 Chatting on a zoom call less than twenty four hours 384 00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:32.640 before his tragic assassination. We're talking about strategizing for all 385 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.519 the anti Israel questions that he anticipated on his upcoming 386 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:37.839 campus tour, and we're kind of just going issue by issue. 387 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:39.319 How do you explain it there? 388 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:43.000 So we did become pretty pretty pretty close, especially as 389 00:20:43.039 --> 00:20:46.559 I became more religious in my Jewish observance. He is 390 00:20:46.599 --> 00:20:50.359 a Charlie's Christianity. He was a very Hebrew Bible centric Christianity. 391 00:20:50.359 --> 00:20:52.640 He was very much a Christianity of the American founding. 392 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:55.480 He was kind of like a John Adams Alexander Hamilton 393 00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:56.400 Christian let's say it. 394 00:20:56.759 --> 00:20:58.640 So he I mean he literally kept his. 395 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:01.480 Version of the Jewish shabbatak turning his phone off Friday 396 00:21:01.519 --> 00:21:05.039 Saturday night. So he had a natural affinity I think 397 00:21:05.119 --> 00:21:09.039 for for authentic you know, Torah based Judaism, for for 398 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.519 people like me who were coming to embrace that. And 399 00:21:11.519 --> 00:21:13.240 we kind of struck up a natural court with one another. 400 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:16.720 And we've we've lost a true titan, We've lost a 401 00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:21.079