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Speaker 5: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 5: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week,
Speaker 5: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 5: killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host
Speaker 5: journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Speaker 6: Good Evening. Three time Emmy Award winning investigative reporter Mark
Speaker 6: Pettitt returns to write the final chapter in his best
Speaker 6: selling and now newly updated book, A Need to Kill
Speaker 6: The Death Row drawings. Dramatic and chilling new evidence comes
Speaker 6: to light, exposing the sinister thoughts running through the mind
Speaker 6: of John Jewbert, the man behind the brutal murders of
Speaker 6: two young boys in Nebraska. In the spirit of Truman
Speaker 6: Capodi's In Cold Blood, Pettit delves into the Jubert case
Speaker 6: to tell the dramatic story from all angles as a
Speaker 6: non fiction novel. In a series of exclusive face to
Speaker 6: face interviews with Pettitt, Jubert admits to a string of
Speaker 6: violent crimes and another killing that sends investigators into a frenzy,
Speaker 6: ending with Jubert's being convicted for a third murder and
Speaker 6: ultimately executed in Nebraska's electric chair. Now, Pettitt uncovers shocking
Speaker 6: new evidence from Jubert's prison records proving the killer was
Speaker 6: fantasizing about committing more violent crimes. Never before seen death
Speaker 6: row drawings made by Jubert while he waited to be
Speaker 6: executed once again send a chill through Nebraska and those
Speaker 6: touched by Juwbert's horrific crimes. In the update version of
Speaker 6: his book, Pettitt opens his investigative files to the public,
Speaker 6: sharing never before seen evidence. Pettitt reveals aspects of Jubbert's
Speaker 6: personality from exclusive interviews and details from the death row
Speaker 6: discussions that have never been shared publicly. Criminal profiler Keith Howard,
Speaker 6: who has who has investigated more than one thousand crimes,
Speaker 6: weighs in with a dramatic assessment of the death row drawings,
Speaker 6: calling Jubert a sexual sadist, pedophile, and organized killer. Howard's
Speaker 6: full assessment of Jubert is included in the book. Pettitt
Speaker 6: is a twenty five year veteran journalist, a former anchor
Speaker 6: at CNN Pettitt also worked as an anchor and investigative
Speaker 6: reporter at w XIA TV NBC in Atlanta and KMTV
Speaker 6: three cb S in Omaha. The book that we're featuring
Speaker 6: this evening is a Need to Kill the Death Row
Speaker 6: Drawings with my special guest, journalist and author, Mark Pettit.
Speaker 6: Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for
Speaker 6: agreeing to this interview. Mark Pettit.
Speaker 3: Hi, Dan, and thank you so much for having me
Speaker 3: on your show. I'm a big fan.
Speaker 6: Thank you very much, Mark. This is an incredible opportunity.
Speaker 6: Thank you for coming on. Let's talk just a little
Speaker 6: bit briefly anyway, because we have to. As we mentioned
Speaker 6: in the introduction, this is the follow up to your
Speaker 6: best selling book. Tell us when the first edition came
Speaker 6: out before we get into this incredible story and why,
Speaker 6: just briefly again, why there was a need for a
Speaker 6: new edition.
Speaker 3: All right, Dan, thank you very much. I've been covering
Speaker 3: this case for almost thirty years. I was a young
Speaker 3: journalist in Omaha, Nebraska, and I had come from Atlanta, Georgia,
Speaker 3: a suburb of Atlanta, and you might remember years ago
Speaker 3: a killer by the name of Wayne Williams. It's the
Speaker 3: missing and murdered children's case. He said, Atlanta, are you
Speaker 3: familiar with that?
Speaker 6: Yes?
Speaker 3: Yes, So I grew up in during the time and
Speaker 3: was in high school when those crimes happened, and I
Speaker 3: knew the fear that gripped the metropolitan Atlanta area. And
Speaker 3: when I went to work in Omaha at KMTV, the
Speaker 3: CBS assiliate, John Jubert had just been arrested, and I
Speaker 3: was just blown away by the fear that he had
Speaker 3: instilled in this community. And he had just pleaded guilty
Speaker 3: to killing the two boys, and I became fascinated with
Speaker 3: the case and started writing letters to the killer in jail.
Speaker 3: I tried several times to go through his attorney to
Speaker 3: see if he would do an interview, and it was no, no, no,
Speaker 3: And so finally I decided to write to John Jubert directly,
Speaker 3: and I used a self addressed envelope with the TV
Speaker 3: station's address, and I sent him a letter that you
Speaker 3: can read in the book, and to my surprise, he
Speaker 3: wrote back, and it was the beginning of a conversation
Speaker 3: that lasted over a year. I talked to Jubert seven
Speaker 3: times on death Row, and you'll see how it unfolded.
Speaker 3: But during these interviews on death Row. I think Jubert
Speaker 3: came to trust me and he started telling me how
Speaker 3: this all happened, and he confessed to a string of crimes,
Speaker 3: including a third murder in Portland, Maine. So when the
Speaker 3: book came out, the original version came out in nineteen
Speaker 3: eighty eight, and there were only five thousand copies that
Speaker 3: sold out in two weeks. I was just blown away.
Speaker 3: And then the book went national as a paperback. And
Speaker 3: there was one thing that I had not reported in
Speaker 3: the earlier versions of the book, and that was that
Speaker 3: John Jubert told me during one of our last interviews
Speaker 3: that he was still fantasizing about killing more children, and
Speaker 3: he was drawing out his fantasy. And I said, John,
Speaker 3: you're on death row, you're going to be executed, and
Speaker 3: you're still fantasizing about killing kids. And he said, yeah,
Speaker 3: I don't know what's wrong with me. But they confiscated
Speaker 3: two of the drawings from me recently, and I said,
Speaker 3: so the prison has these drawings and he said yes,
Speaker 3: And I said, would you let me get those drawings
Speaker 3: and have them analyzed by a mental health professional. So,
Speaker 3: as you'll see in the book, Dan, and you've read
Speaker 3: the book, so you know he took the pad. There's
Speaker 3: a yellow pad that I was taking notes on. Gilbert
Speaker 3: wrote a letter to the warden of the prisoner on
Speaker 3: that day and said, I would like you to give
Speaker 3: these drawings to Mark Pettitt so that he could have
Speaker 3: them analyzed by a mental health professional. So the prison
Speaker 3: refused and would not release the drawings. They felt it
Speaker 3: would jeopardize his appeals. Finally, Jubert was executed in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety six. And it always bothered me that I knew
Speaker 3: about those drawings but had not seen them. So with
Speaker 3: the thirtieth anniversary of the crimes coming up in twenty thirteen,
Speaker 3: I reapproached the prison through a Freedom of Information Act request,
Speaker 3: asking them if they had the drawings, and they called
Speaker 3: me back two days later and said we found them.
Speaker 3: And I was like, you have the drawings and they
Speaker 3: were yet, yes, we have them, and I said can
Speaker 3: you describe them to me? And they said they're too disturbing,
Speaker 3: and I said these need to be made public, and
Speaker 3: the prison system refused. And I thought about it and
Speaker 3: thought about it, and the prosecutor in Nebraska, Lee Holokov, said,
Speaker 3: you should have those drawings. You should sue Mark, you
Speaker 3: should sue the prison system to have them released. And
Speaker 3: that's what I did. And initially we won the court
Speaker 3: decision to have the drawings released, and so we were
Speaker 3: days away from having the drawings made public so I
Speaker 3: could have them analyzed. And the then Nebraska Attorney General
Speaker 3: decided to appeal and the case was taken by the
Speaker 3: Supreme Court of Nebraska and we ended up losing the
Speaker 3: court case, and so the drawings were not going to
Speaker 3: be made public. But then Dan, as you know, sometimes
Speaker 3: fate has a way of intervening in a case like this.
Speaker 3: And I got a call late on a Saturday night
Speaker 3: and I answered, and he said, is this Mark Pettitt
Speaker 3: And I said yes, it is the man that wrote
Speaker 3: the book about John Jubert. And initially I thought it
Speaker 3: was a joke, one of my friends calling me, and
Speaker 3: I said, yes, it is the one that's trying to
Speaker 3: get those drawings released and they won't let them out.
Speaker 3: And I said yes, he said, I have the drawings
Speaker 3: and I'm going to give them to you. And it
Speaker 3: just gave me cold chills, and it gives me cold
Speaker 3: chillbumps now hearing that. So, as it turns out, a
Speaker 3: confidential source came forward and made the drawings available to me,
Speaker 3: and that's why it was necessary for me to write
Speaker 3: the sixth version and the final version of A Need
Speaker 3: to Kill the Death Row drawings.
Speaker 6: As you do, you take us back to Lawrence, Massachusetts
Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty nine, and John Jubat is six years old.
Speaker 6: His mother's name Beverly, and so they're staunch Catholics. So
Speaker 6: tell us a little bit about Jack, his father, and
Speaker 6: Beverly and the life that you describe in the book
Speaker 6: when John is six years.
Speaker 3: Old, surprisingly normal life. He came from a divorced set
Speaker 3: of parents. The mother was very demanding and she would
Speaker 3: not let the children watch TV or violent shows. And
Speaker 3: the father she considered a weakling and really didn't want
Speaker 3: her son seeing his father. But John Jubert went on
Speaker 3: to be an Eagle Scout. So it's this dichotomy of
Speaker 3: this young guy who goes on to be an eagle
Speaker 3: scout goes on to be a US airman. But what
Speaker 3: people didn't know is that there were some sinister thoughts
Speaker 3: brewing in John Jebbert's head at six years old. He
Speaker 3: felt that the babysitter and her mother were trying to
Speaker 3: keep him away from seeing his father. So he told
Speaker 3: me that he fantasized about killing the babysitter, and he
Speaker 3: described it as a light switch, that he could turn
Speaker 3: off the switch and she would be gone. So that's
Speaker 3: when it started. He started having fantasies about murder at
Speaker 3: six years old. It grew to cannibalism. And it's extremely
Speaker 3: hard to believe until you flash forward thirty years and
Speaker 3: read the assessment from Keith Howard, the criminal profiler, it
Speaker 3: starts to all make sense. So Jubert's crimes progress. He
Speaker 3: stabs a girl in the back with a pencil, he
Speaker 3: slashes a boy's throat, he stabs a young woman on
Speaker 3: her way to college in the evening, and then that
Speaker 3: progressed into the murder of Ricky Stepson, the young boy
Speaker 3: in Portland, Maine who was murdered. What I've learned since
Speaker 3: then is that for a person like John Jebert, who
Speaker 3: is now classified as a sexual sadist, an organized defender,
Speaker 3: and a pedophile, the fantasy is never as good as
Speaker 3: the crime itself. So they continue to commit violent crimes
Speaker 3: in hopes that it will become the fantasy that they
Speaker 3: have in their heads. And according to the profiler, Keith Howard,
Speaker 3: that never happens. So they continue to commit violent crimes
Speaker 3: and murders in search of the perfect crime, if you will,
Speaker 3: that will never happen. So that's how it started. Dan.
Speaker 3: It was, you know, as you said, a young boy
Speaker 3: in Massachusetts who moved to Portland. His mother was harsh,
Speaker 3: but there was no abuse that I know of. That's
Speaker 3: the first question I'm asked. Was he abused? And there
Speaker 3: is no evidence that John Jubert was abused sexually or otherwise.
Speaker 6: Now you talk about and again not to Blaine or
Speaker 6: because many people have traumatic events, but you do get
Speaker 6: so close to this subject that you can trace some
Speaker 6: at least significant maybe even again not to throw the
Speaker 6: term around, but triggering effects or triggering triggering events in
Speaker 6: John Jewbert's life. So you talk about some of his
Speaker 6: early life, like you said about the babysitter, but there
Speaker 6: were other incidents that seemed to contribute to this, again,
Speaker 6: the anger, and that's an understatement that we see later
Speaker 6: on in his murderous behavior.
Speaker 3: That's true. Specifically, Dan, he enlisted in the in the
Speaker 3: Air Force and was transferred to Amaha, Nebraska and off
Speaker 3: at Air Force Base, and that's where he really met
Speaker 3: his first really good friend, and honestly, I think there
Speaker 3: may have been some sexual attraction to the roommate, and
Speaker 3: that's got out that they were close, if you will,
Speaker 3: and that maybe they were homosexual in the Air force,
Speaker 3: and the roommate asked to be transferred, and this really
Speaker 3: affected Hubert deeply because he liked his roommate. He thought
Speaker 3: they were good friends. And I think that was a
Speaker 3: triggering event, as you mentioned, that caused him to start
Speaker 3: hunting more victims and ultimately killing more victims. And during
Speaker 3: this time, he was a Scout leader in Nebraska, and
Speaker 3: that's just so hard to believe that on the evening
Speaker 3: of one of the murders, he was there with the
Speaker 3: scout troop speaking them to them that night, telling them
Speaker 3: not to be afraid of the killer. It's just unbelievable.
Speaker 6: And you also talk about too that what you do
Speaker 6: write about in the book is that he befriends a
Speaker 6: young guy, this don Shipman thinks this guy is not
Speaker 6: only going to be an assistant boy scout, he's going
Speaker 6: to take over this attire thing. He introduces him to
Speaker 6: the mayor and the mayor says, well, you have it.
Speaker 6: In the book, it's very cryptic quote, but again ironic.
Speaker 6: Can you tell us what the mayor said about him?
Speaker 3: Basically, we need young men like you in our community,
Speaker 3: you know, welcome. And as you'll read in the book
Speaker 3: and as you have read, Dan, he befriends one of
Speaker 3: the younger Scout members and the little boy is so
Speaker 3: confused about what's happening in the community and at one
Speaker 3: point asked Gubert to tie him up with rope. He said,
Speaker 3: I don't understand why these kids didn't fight back. Tie
Speaker 3: me up, John. So this really triggered in Gilbert both
Speaker 3: a fear and an excitement that he was like, no, no,
Speaker 3: I don't want to do this, and he ends up
Speaker 3: tying up the little boy. And the sheriff who searched
Speaker 3: for Gilbert was a great man by the name of
Speaker 3: Pat Thomas. He told me that he firmed believed that
Speaker 3: that young boy would have been the next child killed
Speaker 3: because Jubert could not control himself once he got into
Speaker 3: that situation where the boy was bound and in fear.
Speaker 3: And we'll talk more about that in a minute, Dan,
Speaker 3: of what this was all about for Gibert was eliciting
Speaker 3: fear from these kids in such a way that they
Speaker 3: knew they were going to be killed, and he wanted
Speaker 3: them to watch him. And that's what's so important about
Speaker 3: these drawings, the death row drawings that we'll talk about,
Speaker 3: I'm sure in depth. I was very interested in what
Speaker 3: some of the things meant in the drawings, and I'll
Speaker 3: tell you more about that as we get into it.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about the murders themselves, the Eberly Boy and
Speaker 6: the Walden Boy and stats and so let's talk about
Speaker 6: the Eberly Boy and how he comes in to be
Speaker 6: in a position to be murdered.
Speaker 3: And I really want to thank the families of Dandy
Speaker 3: Joe Everley and Christopher Walden for first the access that
Speaker 3: they gave me, the trust that they placed in me
Speaker 3: to tell the stories of their young boys. I tried
Speaker 3: my best to treat them with dignity and respect and
Speaker 3: to tell their stories. But Danny Joe Eberley was a
Speaker 3: young boy, all American, you know, just a handsome, smart
Speaker 3: kid who was a paper boy delivering the Omaha World Herald,
Speaker 3: and that was what he was going to do the
Speaker 3: morning that he was kidnapped and murdered. He was off
Speaker 3: to deliver newspapers. So his mother saw him off in
Speaker 3: the driveway, and this gives me chills as well. But
Speaker 3: Judy was saying goodbye to her relatives who had been
Speaker 3: staying with them that night, and so she was saying
Speaker 3: goodbye to them as Danny Joe was peddling off on
Speaker 3: his bicycle, and she said that there was an overwhelming
Speaker 3: feeling that came over her that said, stop him, don't
Speaker 3: let him go. And in the book she tells me,
Speaker 3: don't be silly, Judy, don't be silly, and that was
Speaker 3: the mother's intuition kicking in. So Danny Joe is on
Speaker 3: his paper route and he's parked his bike against a
Speaker 3: chain lick sense, and he's down on his knees rolling
Speaker 3: up the newspapers when suddenly he's approached by John Jibbert
Speaker 3: and he stands up and he starts to walk, and
Speaker 3: that's when Gilbert pulls the knife and says, come with me.
Speaker 3: And I think Danny Joe was so shocked he didn't
Speaker 3: know what to do. But there's also a theory that
Speaker 3: he had met Gibert before that Gilbert may have approached
Speaker 3: him weeks or days earlier, and so there might have
Speaker 3: been some comfort and that he knew John Gibbert in
Speaker 3: some way, and that's why he began to walk with him.
Speaker 3: But Gilbert places his hand over his shoulder, pulls the
Speaker 3: knife and says, come with me. And that's when he
Speaker 3: takes into the car, wraps his mouth, and Duck Hate
Speaker 3: ties him up and puts him in the trunk of
Speaker 3: the car and drives him to the place where Danny
Speaker 3: Joe would be murdered. And that's off a dirt road
Speaker 3: near Omaha, Nebraska. But Danny's family told me and the father,
Speaker 3: Lynn Everly, said, I'll never understand why Danny Joe didn't
Speaker 3: fight back. He said, we used to wrestle. He was strong.
Speaker 3: I don't know why he didn't fight back. And that's
Speaker 3: one thing I've learned from investigators too. If you're a
Speaker 3: parent and you're talking to your children about these type things,
Speaker 3: never go with the killer. Always fight back, scream, kick,
Speaker 3: whatever it takes, because law enforcement will tell you the
Speaker 3: second you get in the car you are that much
Speaker 3: closer to being killed. You're not going to get away
Speaker 3: with this. They're taking you somewhere that you're not coming
Speaker 3: back from. So that's what happened to Danny Joe. Everley
Speaker 3: kidnapped him, tied him up, took him to the remote area,
Speaker 3: and stabbed. And it's just so sad that both boys
Speaker 3: had begged Jubert not to kill them, to take them
Speaker 3: to the hospital. And I said, John, why didn't you
Speaker 3: just take him to the hospital, And he said, I
Speaker 3: knew it was too late, and that's when he slashed
Speaker 3: Danny Joe's throat, stabbed repeatedly. And this is really bizarre
Speaker 3: and shocking too. He bit the boy's body on near
Speaker 3: his thighs. And I asked the investigators and the profile
Speaker 3: a what that meant, and it was all about control
Speaker 3: and sexual sadism and pedophilia. That there's no evidence that
Speaker 3: the boys were sexually assaulted or raped, but there is
Speaker 3: evidence that if a child is five years younger than
Speaker 3: the perpetrator, it is considered pedophilia. So that's what happened
Speaker 3: to Danny Joe. Everley, you talk.
Speaker 6: About it in your book about the horror that Judy
Speaker 6: and Leonard experience just realizing they're getting a phone call.
Speaker 6: He had a paper route, so they were getting concerned
Speaker 6: phone calls and angry phone calls that the paper hadn't come.
Speaker 6: And then finally the supervisor so the all the horrifying
Speaker 6: news unfolds gradually but quickly. You capture all of that.
Speaker 6: You also talk about the Sarpee County Sheriff response, Pat Thomas,
Speaker 6: you introduce the Omaha FBI. John Evans tell us about
Speaker 6: this little about again the response by the family and
Speaker 6: they find out because you do talk about the entire experience,
Speaker 6: even identification at the morgue before we talk about this
Speaker 6: task force that's assembled.
Speaker 3: Sure, so the family is in panic, you know Dan,
Speaker 3: and there's a search for Danny Joe. Ever, a cold
Speaker 3: front moves in, it begins to snow, and that's when
Speaker 3: they find Danny Joe's body, Danny Joe's body. But it
Speaker 3: was so sad for the parents. They're getting phone calls
Speaker 3: and where's my paper? Danny Joe is late, just like
Speaker 3: a child, not to do his job, those kind of things.
Speaker 3: And then once they get to the morgue, when you
Speaker 3: hear the story, it's so heartbreaking of how they have
Speaker 3: to go in and they're debating what kind of casket
Speaker 3: to get and part of them wants to be frugal,
Speaker 3: they don't have a lot of money. The second part
Speaker 3: they want to you know, pay homage and treat Dandy
Speaker 3: Joe with the respect that he deserves. So you relive
Speaker 3: that you experienced that in the book, and that's firsthand
Speaker 3: from the family, exactly what they told me, down to
Speaker 3: the younger brother bringing a pair of white tube socks
Speaker 3: that he that he took from Danny Joe's bedroom and said,
Speaker 3: please bury Dandy Joe in the sock. They were his favorites.
Speaker 3: So you really get to learn about these families. You
Speaker 3: get to understand what these little boys were like. But
Speaker 3: I also wanted you to understand what was going through
Speaker 3: the minds of the law enforcement from Pat Thomas. If
Speaker 3: you ever could pick a sheriff from Central Casting, it
Speaker 3: was him. It reminds me of Beautifully Pusser from the movies,
Speaker 3: walking tall, just a big, burly guy. Everything you would
Speaker 3: think about in a sheriff, and just what he was
Speaker 3: going through and what Jim Sanderson, who was the young
Speaker 3: lieutenant on the task force, who had a daughter of
Speaker 3: his own, and these guys were trying to find this killer.
Speaker 3: It went on for one hundred and eighteen days until
Speaker 3: to the next murder happened, and the profilers had been
Speaker 3: telling them, you better catch him. You've got to get
Speaker 3: him within ninety to one hundred days or he's going
Speaker 3: to kill again. So imagine the fear and the anxiety
Speaker 3: in the community and the law enforcement officers who know
Speaker 3: that the time is ticking, that they've got to find
Speaker 3: this killer, and the pressure they were under. I tried
Speaker 3: to tell that story and I hope it came through
Speaker 3: in the book of what these law enforcement officers were
Speaker 3: going through and ultimately the great work that they did
Speaker 3: to catch John Jubert.
Speaker 6: It's amazing the different side stories in this very complex story.
Speaker 6: But what you do is you talk about this task
Speaker 6: force that's assembled, but we also then talk about you,
Speaker 6: as you mentioned the pressure that these people are put
Speaker 6: on once they find that body, and once people believe
Speaker 6: that there's this killer in their midst that anybody could
Speaker 6: be a victim too. So you also talk about bringing
Speaker 6: in Robert K. Wrestler, the famous profiler and FBI pioneer
Speaker 6: of criminal profiling, to also look at these cases, or
Speaker 6: look at this case because there is a similarity with
Speaker 6: another infamous case, the Johnny Gosh newspaper boy, and because
Speaker 6: there's some similarities. So tell us about Robert K. Wrestler
Speaker 6: and this before we talk about the task force and
Speaker 6: the conflict that they have at the task force that
Speaker 6: at least doesn't send this case onto a wild goose
Speaker 6: chase as you did. Right, So let's talk about the
Speaker 6: efforts by the FBI and why the FBI is involved
Speaker 6: when they don't really have to be. So explain all
Speaker 6: of that to us.
Speaker 3: Well, I think you nailed it. There was another case,
Speaker 3: another paper boy by the name of Johnny Gosh from
Speaker 3: in Iowa. I mean I also covered that case that
Speaker 3: they thought there could be crimes crossing state lines and
Speaker 3: for that reason, the FBI was sent in to assist
Speaker 3: Sarpye County and the Bellevue Police Department in pursuing the case.
Speaker 3: But Bob Wrestler, and he since passed, was considered the
Speaker 3: godfather of criminal profilings, and I talked to Bob on
Speaker 3: multiple occasions about this, but he was sent to Omaha
Speaker 3: days within a couple of days, I believe, of the
Speaker 3: first murder. And it's amazing what they can tell from
Speaker 3: the crime scene itself, from the victim, and how things
Speaker 3: have progressed Dan from when Bob Wrestler was on this
Speaker 3: case to what Keith Howard, who trained under Bob Wrestler ironically,
Speaker 3: or how the science has progressed to today, how much
Speaker 3: more they know from what a killer is doing. But
Speaker 3: Bob Wrestler was quickly able to say that this was
Speaker 3: going to be a young loner, most likely blue collar,
Speaker 3: not very well educated, that he was not This was
Speaker 3: a hurried crime. And as I've mentioned, for these people
Speaker 3: like John Jubert who are classified as an organized defender,
Speaker 3: they start out sloppy and the crimes get more sophisticated
Speaker 3: and they get less sloppy. So Bob Wrestler was able
Speaker 3: to come in quickly put together a profile of who
Speaker 3: they thought this killer was, and then they started literally
Speaker 3: rounding up potential suspects on a pervert squad. So they
Speaker 3: were pulling in all these people and who had previously
Speaker 3: been arrested or suspected of crimes, and on a couple
Speaker 3: of occasions almost charged the wrong person in the case.
Speaker 3: Once there was there was a pebble found in one
Speaker 3: of the boys' mouths, and they thought, well, this is
Speaker 3: what the the autopsy revealed. So they went down this
Speaker 3: whole rabbit hole of trying to find this pebble and
Speaker 3: where it came from. And it turned out that the
Speaker 3: medical examiner had made a mistake and transposed copy from
Speaker 3: one case to another, and the pebble was not found
Speaker 3: in one of the boy's mouth. So again, how frustrating
Speaker 3: that can be for the or had to be for
Speaker 3: the law enforcement who are going down this path. They're investigating,
Speaker 3: they're interviewing all these people. They get a guy that
Speaker 3: they think is the right guy, it's not. They get
Speaker 3: evidence that they think is real and it's not, and
Speaker 3: you're back to square one. So that's what happened. And
Speaker 3: Bob Wrestler, you know, did his best, and I think
Speaker 3: if you read his assessment in a lot of ways,
Speaker 3: he was right. And that was literally a science to
Speaker 3: be able to come in and put together a criminal
Speaker 3: profile and talk about who the suspect was.
Speaker 6: We won't talk about all the suspects that became prime suspects,
Speaker 6: what were eliminated, But I think it's very very interesting
Speaker 6: to see that we could have had another another book
Speaker 6: with wrongful conviction pretty easy without this and interesting dynamic
Speaker 6: in this task force. So let's just talk briefly about this.
Speaker 6: About shortly after this, it seems like a big break
Speaker 6: because of all of this confluence of things that when
Speaker 6: police are looking at Alvin Terry, who's eighteen years old exactly,
Speaker 6: he's molested a couple young boys. So tell us how
Speaker 6: they think he's a good prime suspect and how they
Speaker 6: don't come to arrest him for this.
Speaker 3: So Alvin Terry is arrested. He has been suspected of
Speaker 3: from child molestation. He had been molested himself and harassed
Speaker 3: by other boys and adults, and I think he was shaken.
Speaker 3: His story wasn't adding up. They found a hair that
Speaker 3: they thought matched his body. And it came down dan
Speaker 3: to literally a vote that became very heated among senior
Speaker 3: members of the task force, and pat us voted to
Speaker 3: get charge him. And it was Jim Sanderson, the lieutenant,
Speaker 3: who had a young daughter of his own at the time,
Speaker 3: said this is not the right guy, this is not him.
Speaker 3: We're down the wrong path. And they literally went around
Speaker 3: the room and voted, and it was so close, and
Speaker 3: the vote came up not to charge Alvin Terry the suspect.
Speaker 3: And like you said, that could have been a whole
Speaker 3: different book. And I know you've interviewed my friend and
Speaker 3: fellow author John Ferrick with his book Bloody Lives. How
Speaker 3: it could go so so wrong with evidence that's not
Speaker 3: real or evidence that's planted. And you can imagine the
Speaker 3: pressure that's on these law enforcement officers to find someone
Speaker 3: in this case that things like that happened. So that
Speaker 3: did not happen in this case, but investigators were led.
Speaker 3: As I said, it was one hundred and eighteen days
Speaker 3: that Jebert led them on this killing spree. And the
Speaker 3: second boy, Christopher Walden, was killed in early December of
Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty three, and again just a tragic story.
Speaker 3: If you want me to go ahead and talk about
Speaker 3: what happened with Christopher, I'd be happy to do that.
Speaker 6: Let's talk about Christopher Walden. But just before that, you have,
Speaker 6: again a horrifying true event that happens. I want you
Speaker 6: to describe for the audience in that right after the
Speaker 6: funeral Elberly, Danny Joe Elderly, the family gets back to
Speaker 6: the home and there's a phone call that the sister
Speaker 6: Maria answers, or Lenny's sister Maria answers, someone in the
Speaker 6: home answers what is the content of that phone call?
Speaker 3: And this again is something you would never get unless
Speaker 3: you were able to gain the trust of the family
Speaker 3: and get inside and get their side of the story.
Speaker 3: So imagine you've just bare read your child. You're all
Speaker 3: at home, and you know it's customary to have a
Speaker 3: meal together and to mourn together. And the phone rings
Speaker 3: and the caller on the other end of the line says,
Speaker 3: can Danny Joe come out and play? So not only
Speaker 3: had they just gone through this horror of the murder
Speaker 3: and then the funeral, but for someone so callous to
Speaker 3: call and ask if the dead boy can come out
Speaker 3: and play? I just I couldn't believe it and was so,
Speaker 3: you know, thankful that the family told me that story,
Speaker 3: because that's a hurt on a hurt that you would
Speaker 3: never know unless they could tell it themselves.
Speaker 6: Yeah, okay, tell us about Chris Walden and the circumstances
Speaker 6: again remarkably that he gets himself in to be in
Speaker 6: a position to meet John juber.
Speaker 3: So. Christopher Walden is a twelve year old boy. It
Speaker 3: was December second, nineteen eighty three. Christopher was getting ready
Speaker 3: for school and his mom, Sue Walden, was up and
Speaker 3: he wasn't properly dressed. He said, get your coat on,
Speaker 3: get your boggin. You know, it's snowing. You need to
Speaker 3: be dressed. And Christopher was coming into an age where
Speaker 3: he wanted to look good for the little girls in
Speaker 3: the classroom, and he didn't want to get his hair
Speaker 3: messed up, and so his mom said, no, you've got
Speaker 3: to put that stocking cap on, and so he did begrudgingly.
Speaker 3: And he is walking to school and John Jebert their
Speaker 3: paths cross. Jubert is out that morning and he is
Speaker 3: searching for another victim. This is December second, as I mentioned,
Speaker 3: nineteen eighty three, and he sees Christopher Walden walking on
Speaker 3: the sidewalk in the snow. There's no one else around him.
Speaker 3: So Gilbert pulls the car ahead and gets out with
Speaker 3: his knife and approaches Christopher Walden just like he did
Speaker 3: Danny Joe Everley. Pulls the knife and tells him to
Speaker 3: get in the car. So Christopher Walden does as he's told,
Speaker 3: and this time he's in the front seat, on the
Speaker 3: passenger side, down on the floorboard, and he's begging Jubert
Speaker 3: to let him go, to not hurt him. And Gibert
Speaker 3: told me that for a second he thought about it,
Speaker 3: He thought about letting Christopher go and just letting him
Speaker 3: be on his way, and he decided no, it was
Speaker 3: too late, that he would surely tell the police he
Speaker 3: would be able to identify him. So he takes Christopher
Speaker 3: Walden to another remote area and again Dan, imagine it's
Speaker 3: freezing cold, there's snow on the ground. And he arches
Speaker 3: Christopher Walden into this snowy area and makes him take
Speaker 3: off his clothing. And this is significant. He made these
Speaker 3: boys strip down to their underwear. He did not make
Speaker 3: them take off their underwear. But it's still considered pedophilia
Speaker 3: and sexual sadism, according to the profiler Keith Howard. So,
Speaker 3: Danny Joe, I mean, Christopher Walden is in the woods
Speaker 3: and begging for his life, and Jebert stabs him, and
Speaker 3: you know, the little boys down and he's stabbing him
Speaker 3: and slashing him. And it's so sad that when you
Speaker 3: see the photographs, and I've seen the photographs of the
Speaker 3: crime scene, his little backpack, his notepad, and in the
Speaker 3: pocket of Christopher Walden, the medical examiner found ten cents
Speaker 3: and it was money that the boy was going to
Speaker 3: use to buy extra milk at school. So those are
Speaker 3: the kind of details that I wanted people to understand
Speaker 3: for several reasons. To understand the level of investigative work
Speaker 3: I had done to get beneath these crimes and find
Speaker 3: out what really happened, but also to humanize these children
Speaker 3: so that people would understand that this is just like
Speaker 3: your family. It's just like your child, and something horrific
Speaker 3: could happen like this. So that's what happened with Christopher
Speaker 3: Walden and his body was found two days later by
Speaker 3: hunters who were out hunting, and they found Christopher's body
Speaker 3: in the woods.
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Speaker 6: You also talk about the again ungratifying or the job
Speaker 6: that nobody wants. Sheriff Thomas comes to tell Sue Walden
Speaker 6: about finding the body and then about Steve that he
Speaker 6: couldn't go tell us about this.
Speaker 3: It's horrific. Sue Walden when when she saw them pull
Speaker 3: up in the driveway, I think she knew that the
Speaker 3: worst was had happened. And so Sheriff Thomas here he
Speaker 3: has this is now twice in one hundred and eighteen
Speaker 3: days that he's had to tell a mother and father
Speaker 3: that their child had been murdered. And it's awful. The reaction,
Speaker 3: if you're reading the book, is terrible. And the father
Speaker 3: or Steve Walden, is so upset that he can't even
Speaker 3: go to the morgue to look at his son. So
Speaker 3: there is Pat Thomas. He's now twice had to break
Speaker 3: this horrible news to family members, and he starts to
Speaker 3: take this very personally, and he begins to try to
Speaker 3: talk to the killer from the through the media. And
Speaker 3: there's a chilling interview that I was able to obtain
Speaker 3: where Sheriff Thomas is talking to the media to a
Speaker 3: reporter and instead of looking directly into the camera, he
Speaker 3: looks to the left and says, if you're out there,
Speaker 3: turn yourself in to either a clergy person or to
Speaker 3: me and start picking on someone your own size. So
Speaker 3: he was trying, and this is a police technique to
Speaker 3: get the killer to move away from children, possibly to
Speaker 3: an adult where he or she might make a mistake.
Speaker 3: That's what happened. Gubert, I believe, was out looking for
Speaker 3: more victims the morning that he ran into Barbara Weaver
Speaker 3: at the preschool where he was ultimately caught. That Sheriff
Speaker 3: Thomas has felt the pain of these parents. He knows
Speaker 3: the pressure that his men on the task force and
Speaker 3: men and women are under, and he's trying to connect
Speaker 3: with the killer directly. If you are a man, pick
Speaker 3: on someone your own size. And Gilbert was watching and
Speaker 3: he told me, oh, yeah, I was watching. I wanted
Speaker 3: to see what the police were doing. So again, Dan,
Speaker 3: this is so interesting to be able to talk to
Speaker 3: the law enforcement, talk to the parents, and then talk
Speaker 3: to the killer, because it's literally a three hundred and
Speaker 3: sixty degree view of what had happened during this timeframe.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to mention people asking me all the time,
Speaker 3: how did you come up with the name of the book,
Speaker 3: A Need to Kill? So I was interviewing Gilbert's and
Speaker 3: during one of our interviews on death Row, and I said, John,
Speaker 3: you didn't know these boys. You had no idea who
Speaker 3: they were. How could you do this to them? And
Speaker 3: he said, Mark, for as long as I can tell you,
Speaker 3: I've just had a need to kill. And the hair
Speaker 3: stood up on my arms in the back of my neck.
Speaker 3: I just couldn't believe he said that. And so to me,
Speaker 3: that was naturally the title of the book. And so
Speaker 3: that's how the book has progressed over the years. This
Speaker 3: is the sixth edition, so it was a need to kill,
Speaker 3: a need to kill, Final Justice, a need to kill.
Speaker 3: The death Row drawings is the final version and it's
Speaker 3: only available at Amazon dot com. But I hope that
Speaker 3: your listeners who are interested will read this book so
Speaker 3: that they can not only get into the mind of
Speaker 3: this killer, but understand what these families went through, what
Speaker 3: these law enforcement officers went through, and what was a
Speaker 3: horrific time in the heartland.
Speaker 6: When I talked about stories within stories, this is an
Speaker 6: incredible side story here, for lack of a better term
Speaker 6: on my part, where this time John Jubert in retrospect,
Speaker 6: when people when this story makes it to the media,
Speaker 6: and people of course are paying attention, again, the entire
Speaker 6: community is in fear. So you get two characters that
Speaker 6: come forward, Cheryl Baumgartner and Rebecca Trepani. And it's incredible
Speaker 6: to me because I've read quite a few of these
Speaker 6: books where hypnosis is used. But this is one of
Speaker 6: the most incredible parts of this incredible book is the effort,
Speaker 6: the incredible effort with Bill Kinney special agent doctor Richard
Speaker 6: Garver to hypnotize these women to gain valuable information. But
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Speaker 6: When we last left off Mark, we were talking about
Speaker 6: the incredible effort that was undertaken by Bill Kinney and
Speaker 6: doctor Richard Garver to hypnotize these two witnesses that in
Speaker 6: retrospect thought that they saw something that day. Tell us
Speaker 6: a little bit about this incredible effort.
Speaker 3: There were two women Dan Rebecca Trepanning and Cheryl Baumgartner,
Speaker 3: and both were actually eyewitnesses to the kidnapping of Christopher
Speaker 3: Walden the morning that had happened, and both women were
Speaker 3: brought in to talk to local authorities. Of course, once
Speaker 3: they realized and he heard on the news what had happened,
Speaker 3: and both women were taken to San Antonio, Texas to
Speaker 3: be hypnotized and interviewed by a doctor and the FBI.
Speaker 3: So it's amazing to see these women who are struggling
Speaker 3: to remember and to bring back any ideas or any evidence,
Speaker 3: and how the hypnosis I believe really worked in a
Speaker 3: couple of cases that the women were able to bring
Speaker 3: out certain elements a piece of a tag number, a
Speaker 3: holster where the knife was on Jubert's belt, to a
Speaker 3: sign that was on the street corner that would ultimately
Speaker 3: place Jubert at the scene of the crime through the hypnosis.
Speaker 3: So both women I think were traumatized a by not
Speaker 3: being able to remember and be by going through the
Speaker 3: process of being hypnotized that they were traumatized afterwards. But
Speaker 3: it's a good thing that they both came forward because
Speaker 3: they both helped bring out pieces that ultimately helped law
Speaker 3: enforcement solve this twisted puzzle.
Speaker 6: What are the kinds of details that they did elicit
Speaker 6: from these women through hypnosis that were, as you say,
Speaker 6: crucial in this case.
Speaker 3: A partial tag number and the holster and a sign
Speaker 3: that was that it was in the corner of the
Speaker 3: road at the intersection that said that bike route and
Speaker 3: so Cheryl Bamcottner could not remember what that sign was.
Speaker 3: And then she gets home from the hypnosis, she drives
Speaker 3: by and she sees the sign that said bike route
Speaker 3: and that's when she sat in her car and wept,
Speaker 3: knowing that she wasn't crazy, that she had actually remembered
Speaker 3: something that was very important that was brought out during
Speaker 3: the hypnosis. So partial tag number, partial description of Jubert
Speaker 3: that he'd had a knife in a sheath. So those
Speaker 3: were all critical pieces of evidence that helped police once
Speaker 3: they tracked Jubert down and found those exact pieces of
Speaker 3: evidence from his car and from his personal belongings.
Speaker 6: Tell us how the progression of events that leads to
Speaker 6: him his ultimate arrest, but also tell us about the
Speaker 6: Barbara Weaver.
Speaker 3: Barbara Weaver was a remarkable lady. And you know, I
Speaker 3: don't know if you're a spiritual person or whether you
Speaker 3: or not, whether you know, it really doesn't matter for
Speaker 3: your audiences. But Barbara Weaver was a very spiritual person.
Speaker 3: And she told me the morning that John Jubert was captured,
Speaker 3: she was having breakfast with her children and she said,
Speaker 3: each morning we prayed for these children and that the
Speaker 3: police would capture the killer. And that morning she said
Speaker 3: that she said a special prayer and she said, God,
Speaker 3: I don't know how I can help, but if there
Speaker 3: is a way, please use me to help. And this
Speaker 3: really was amazing as well. She showed me in her
Speaker 3: wallet a quote that she carried in her purse and
Speaker 3: it was no enemy can come so near that God
Speaker 3: isn't mirror. So that morning she had prayed with her children,
Speaker 3: and Barbara was a school teacher at Aldersgate Methodist Church.
Speaker 3: So Barbara is there with the children that morning, and
Speaker 3: she's aware of the crimes. Of course, as I said,
Speaker 3: they've been praying about it. And that morning a young
Speaker 3: man pulls up in the driveway of the church and
Speaker 3: she sees him get out of the car and it's
Speaker 3: John Jebert. And I asked John during one of the interviews.
Speaker 3: I said, what was happening John, And he said, I
Speaker 3: was desperate for money. I was going to rob the
Speaker 3: lady at the church. But I really believe he was
Speaker 3: out looking for additional victims because I've mentioned and as
Speaker 3: the profiler has said, they this progressive progresses, they will
Speaker 3: not stop killing until they have committed the perfect crime,
Speaker 3: and that's never going to happen, so they continue to
Speaker 3: commit these crimes. So Jubert says he's out to get money,
Speaker 3: and he goes to the door of the church and
Speaker 3: he knocks on the door and Barbara we Were is
Speaker 3: frightened and she thinks she recognizes him, and he says,
Speaker 3: can I come in and use the phone? And she
Speaker 3: lied to him and said there is no phone. I'm sorry,
Speaker 3: you can't come in. And that's when Jubert tried to
Speaker 3: force his way into the classroom, and when Barbara Weaver
Speaker 3: decided to fight back, so she pushed him in the
Speaker 3: you know, it's icy and snow on the ground, and
Speaker 3: Gilbert loses his footing and stumbles. He's frightened, she's frightened.
Speaker 3: She's able to slam the door and he runs to
Speaker 3: the car and gets away, and Barbara Weaver runs to
Speaker 3: the home of the pastor and she's able to give
Speaker 3: a full description of the suspect and identified the car
Speaker 3: that he was in, which turned out to be a
Speaker 3: rental car at the time, and she was able to
Speaker 3: describe the car in enough way that the police were
Speaker 3: able to track what cars were being ra at this time,
Speaker 3: and they were able to track the car to John
Speaker 3: Jibbert at off At Air Force Base. So that's how
Speaker 3: John Jubbert was stopped. It was Barbara Weaver. And whether
Speaker 3: you're religious or spiritual or not, that very morning she
Speaker 3: had prayed for God to use her in a special way,
Speaker 3: and that's what happened. But it's also interesting Dan, after
Speaker 3: I had interviewed Barbara Weaver, she since moved to California
Speaker 3: and Gilbert was on death row, she was still living
Speaker 3: in fear, and in the documentary I did on the case,
Speaker 3: she said, I constantly live in fear that he'll come
Speaker 3: after me someday and after my children someday. So I
Speaker 3: think up until the point that Jubert was executed, the
Speaker 3: people who were involved in this case were still haunted
Speaker 3: and still still fearful. And I'm not sure that the
Speaker 3: death penalty makes that go away. It is a certain finality,
Speaker 3: but these people were in fear even years after the
Speaker 3: crimes had happened. But it was Barbara Weaver who cracked
Speaker 3: the case and helped police track down John Gilbert in
Speaker 3: his dorm room at off An Air Force Base.
Speaker 6: Now, what I wanted to say is also that what
Speaker 6: people that are listening to this program don't get to see,
Speaker 6: and it is dramatic, is the childlike looks of John
Speaker 6: Jubert at twenty years old when he's arrested and you
Speaker 6: have him an excellent photo of him on the cover.
Speaker 6: So maybe for those that aren't seeing your cover right yet,
Speaker 6: maybe you can describe exactly what I'm talking about. And
Speaker 6: I think it is dramatic, and you can.
Speaker 3: There are two photos that strike me in the book.
Speaker 3: One is John Jubert in his Eagle Scout uniform. He
Speaker 3: looks innocent, he looks happy, he's with two other boys,
Speaker 3: and so obviously he's had to do a lot of
Speaker 3: work to earn the badges and the right to be
Speaker 3: an Eagle Scout. And again that's part of the decata
Speaker 3: me here. How can someone who appears so wholesome and
Speaker 3: good be so evil? And then you see this photo
Speaker 3: that's on the cover of the book, and this is
Speaker 3: actually the mugshot that was taken the day that Jubert
Speaker 3: was arrested. And in a way, he looks innocent. He's
Speaker 3: a handsome young guy. And then you look his eyes
Speaker 3: and I want to tell you a story that I
Speaker 3: retell in the book. The first time I went down
Speaker 3: to interview John Jewbert in Lincoln, Nebraska on death Row.
Speaker 3: I get there and I'm walking by the guards and
Speaker 3: one of the guards says to me, are you nervous?
Speaker 3: And I said, honestly, I am and he said, Mark,
Speaker 3: it'll be fine once you get past his eyes. And
Speaker 3: I didn't understand what that meant until Jubert came into
Speaker 3: the room. And the way I describe it is shark guys.
Speaker 3: I don't know if you've ever a picture the eyes
Speaker 3: of a shark, that ray and cold. Those were John
Speaker 3: Jubert's eyes. And so you could see that in the
Speaker 3: cover of this book. Here is this honest I mean, handsome,
Speaker 3: wholesome looking young man. But look into his eyes. And
Speaker 3: that's what those guards were telling me. And what I've
Speaker 3: observed of Jubert when I was interviewing him on Death Room,
Speaker 3: and I've told people it was and it's weird in
Speaker 3: a way. John Jubert had a good personality. We would
Speaker 3: laugh at times about things. He once imitated the church
Speaker 3: lady from Saturday Night Live that you'll read about in
Speaker 3: the book. And then one day he asked me something
Speaker 3: very poignant. He said, have you seen People Magazine this week?
Speaker 3: And I said, no, I really haven't. John. He said,
Speaker 3: Charlie Sheen is on the cover of People magazine. And
Speaker 3: he says he'd rather be in a killing scene than
Speaker 3: a love making scene in a movie. I'm in prison
Speaker 3: for thinking that way. So Jubert was very intelligent, and
Speaker 3: at times it's hard for some people to hear had
Speaker 3: a wit and a good sense of humor. But then
Speaker 3: when I would press him about the killings and specific details,
Speaker 3: he would become rigid, and those eyes would get darker
Speaker 3: and darker. And so that's why I chose the photo
Speaker 3: for the cover, Dan is because of the ecotomy of
Speaker 3: a what appears to be a young, wholesome young man,
Speaker 3: but once you get beneath the eyes, you see the evil.
Speaker 6: We've already alluded to, or more than alluded to. That
Speaker 6: he gets a death sentence, But let's talk about what
Speaker 6: happens before that. What is it about the evidence that
Speaker 6: they gather other than this eyewitness testimony eyewitness id What
Speaker 6: are some of the other things that they gather in
Speaker 6: terms at the off It Air Force base, in terms
Speaker 6: of evidence that they can use at this trial.
Speaker 3: So they get into his room and he agrees to
Speaker 3: the search, and so they start going through his belongings
Speaker 3: and they find these detective magazines and Dan, I don't
Speaker 3: know if you've ever seen these, but you've seen a
Speaker 3: cover now in the book about these horrific crimes that
Speaker 3: are re enacted in what they used to call detective magazines.
Speaker 3: They found a number of those in Jubert's possession, and
Speaker 3: he told me that he fantasized and masturbated about those crimes,
Speaker 3: that he was just turned on by the fear. And
Speaker 3: now I understand that once I have the profile from
Speaker 3: Keith Howard of how these people operate. They operate on
Speaker 3: fear that leads to sexual excitement. That's why they're called
Speaker 3: a sexual status. So they find this material in Jubert's possession,
Speaker 3: in his closet in his dorm room, and then they
Speaker 3: go to his car, and when you see the photographs
Speaker 3: in the book, the car is a mess. There's trash everywhere, cups, paper,
Speaker 3: and then they opened the glove compartment and they hit
Speaker 3: the treasure troves. That's where they found the piece of rope,
Speaker 3: which is a very unique piece of rope that I
Speaker 3: described in the book that they literally searched the world,
Speaker 3: even to Scotland Yard to figure out where this rope
Speaker 3: came from. And they also found the knife. So Jubert
Speaker 3: had been so sloppy that he left the knife and
Speaker 3: the rope in the car, and so that was clear
Speaker 3: evidence that I think he was plotting another murder in
Speaker 3: the morning he was caught, so it just all started
Speaker 3: to unravel. They found the stuff in his dorm room,
Speaker 3: they found the stuff in his car, and then they
Speaker 3: take him in for the interrogation, and that's one of
Speaker 3: the most intense parts of the book, where they get
Speaker 3: him in and interview him for hours and he finally
Speaker 3: cracks and admits that he had killed at least the
Speaker 3: first two boys. He did not as to the third
Speaker 3: murder until I had interviewed him multiple times on Death
Speaker 3: Road and those crimes had gone unsolved in Portland, Maine.
Speaker 3: But he cracked and confessed during the interrogation.
Speaker 6: Now it's an interesting trial, but they try their best.
Speaker 6: But like you say that, there's overwhelming evidence against him,
Speaker 6: and the audience knows enough about some death penalty cases
Speaker 6: that they have to have mitigating circumstances either way to
Speaker 6: negate the death penalty or to enact the death penalty.
Speaker 6: What is his demeanor at trial? How does he respond?
Speaker 3: I think he knows it's over. They get to the
Speaker 3: point where he just decides to plead guilty. The evidence
Speaker 3: is overwhelming, and as far as mitigating circumstances, there were
Speaker 3: a few things his mother had written a letter on
Speaker 3: his behalf, and the defense had argued that he had
Speaker 3: been taunted and bullied in school and those things had
Speaker 3: led him to become the person that he was. But
Speaker 3: I think the letters and the testimony of the parents
Speaker 3: of the victims was just overwhelming, and it's fascinating. What
Speaker 3: happened in Nebraska is that John Jibbert was one of
Speaker 3: the last people executed in the state of Nebraska, and
Speaker 3: the death penalty was actually repealed not long after. There
Speaker 3: was one other execution, I believe after Jubberts in nineteen
Speaker 3: ninety six, So the death penalty was repealed and it
Speaker 3: became a really heated debate in the state of whether
Speaker 3: they should bring the death penalty back. And Dan that brings,
Speaker 3: you know, as we move into these drawings that Gibbert
Speaker 3: had told me about. Once the confidential source had turned
Speaker 3: the drawings or copies of the drawings over to me,
Speaker 3: I held them for a year. I did not want
Speaker 3: to get involved in the debate over the death penalty
Speaker 3: in Nebraska. I did not want to be accused of
Speaker 3: influencing the debate either way. But once the people of
Speaker 3: Nebraska voted to reinstate the death penalty. That's when I
Speaker 3: decided to come forward and make the drawings public that
Speaker 3: I had held for over a year and had analyzed.
Speaker 3: So interesting that the death penalty. That Jubert confessed and
Speaker 3: was given the death penalty, that's sort of rare. You'd
Speaker 3: think that you would cut a deal. If you're going
Speaker 3: to confess to something, you don't do it without a
Speaker 3: sentence that's agreed upon in advance. But he actually pled
Speaker 3: guilty and was sentenced to die by the three judge panel.
Speaker 6: Yeah, that's incredible, And you talked you just mentioned about
Speaker 6: the debate itself. But I guess I'll ask you to
Speaker 6: go further in this explanation because you then you get
Speaker 6: Keith Howard on board to look at these death row
Speaker 6: drawings as well. But tell us how you get to
Speaker 6: speak to him before he's executed. I think our audience
Speaker 6: would like to know a little bit more about those
Speaker 6: last minute conversations.
Speaker 3: So I'd interviewed John Jubert seven times on death row
Speaker 3: and he was to be executed in nineteen ninety six.
Speaker 3: But what had happened after my book came out and
Speaker 3: he had confessed to the third murder. I was subpoened
Speaker 3: by police and the District Attorney's office in Portland, Maine.
Speaker 3: That came after my records and my files. And Dan
Speaker 3: is a journalist, you know that the only thing that
Speaker 3: we have is our word to the people that we're
Speaker 3: talking with and to our sources. And so in a
Speaker 3: weird way, I had an allegiance to Jubert because he
Speaker 3: was telling me confidential information or information that I was
Speaker 3: the only person who knew. And I'm not in the
Speaker 3: police department. I'm not a police officer, so I didn't
Speaker 3: tell anyone until the book came out that Jubert had
Speaker 3: confessed to the string of violent crimes and the third murder.
Speaker 3: So you can imagine when the book came out and
Speaker 3: he has confessed to the third murder, this all explodes.
Speaker 3: So the police come after me, they come after their records,
Speaker 3: and I ended up having to testify against Jubert at
Speaker 3: the murder trial in Portland, so it was very difficult.
Speaker 3: He was very upset with me, and that was actually
Speaker 3: the last time I saw him and got to speak
Speaker 3: to him or to his attorney. We were leaving the
Speaker 3: courtroom after he had been convicted. And this is a
Speaker 3: really powerful part of the book, but I walk over
Speaker 3: to his defense attorney and I said, you know, I'd
Speaker 3: really like to talk to John again. And he said, Mark,
Speaker 3: you can talk to John Jibbert after the State of
Speaker 3: Nebraska executes him. And he slammed the trunk of his car,
Speaker 3: got in the car and drove off. And even up
Speaker 3: until the day that Gilbert was executed, I tried to
Speaker 3: get messages to him. I went back to Nebraska and
Speaker 3: did commentary for KMTV. At this time, I was in
Speaker 3: Atlanta working for the NBC affiliate here in Atlanta, but
Speaker 3: the station asked me to come back and do commentary,
Speaker 3: So I tried to get a message to John Jewbert.
Speaker 3: I tried to meet with him one more time, and
Speaker 3: I think dan he was so upset because I had
Speaker 3: testified against him in Portland that a he didn't want
Speaker 3: to speak to me, or the prison didn't get the
Speaker 3: messages through to him. That I wanted to talk to him,
Speaker 3: but we never spoke after what happened in Portland.
Speaker 6: Right now, tell us about the trial in Portland and
Speaker 6: more about you or your battle with the authorities too,
Speaker 6: because the authorities don't appreciate that you didn't come forward
Speaker 6: with this information as you say you had you had
Speaker 6: a tendency to keep your source and not go to
Speaker 6: the authorities. So tell us a little bit more about
Speaker 6: what happens at trial and how much of that evidence
Speaker 6: is used to convict him.
Speaker 3: It was very intense. The police put a lot of
Speaker 3: pressure on me to turn over the information that I had,
Speaker 3: and as I said, as a journalist, that's all we
Speaker 3: have is our word and our bond, and confidentiality is
Speaker 3: an important part of news gathering. So I refuse to
Speaker 3: turn over my documents, my files and so forth. And
Speaker 3: it got very heated that they threatened that I could
Speaker 3: be arrested for contempt of courts and such. So we
Speaker 3: ended up cutting a deal. My attorney, Waldr, who I'm
Speaker 3: so thankful for, basically took this on for free. Here
Speaker 3: I am a young journalist in Nebraska, you know, investigating
Speaker 3: this on my own. And this is interesting thirty years
Speaker 3: later that really I fought this battle by myself to
Speaker 3: get these drawings released. And I'll tell you more about
Speaker 3: that in the minute. But there was a quote that
Speaker 3: was on chapter ten of the book. If you looked
Speaker 3: to chapter ten, I asked John, point blank, John, did
Speaker 3: you kill Ricky Stetson In Portland, and he reached over
Speaker 3: and turned off my tape recorder. I'd been recording the interviews.
Speaker 3: And you know, by this time, Dan, we had we
Speaker 3: had formed a relationship in sort of a bond where
Speaker 3: I think he trusted me. And he said, Mark, I
Speaker 3: can't lie to you. I can't say that I didn't
Speaker 3: do it. But the last time I pled guilty to anything,
Speaker 3: I got the death penalty. And so that's when I
Speaker 3: knew that he had killed Ricky Stetson. And that was
Speaker 3: the agreement that we reached with prosecutors in Portland, Maine,
Speaker 3: that I would come to court and I would only
Speaker 3: testify to one thing and that was that one quote
Speaker 3: from chapter ten of the book, and I would not
Speaker 3: give up any other information. And that was all it took.
Speaker 3: It lasted, you know, a day, and he was convicted
Speaker 3: just within hours. So it was one quote Dan that
Speaker 3: closed the case in Portland, and you know, probably turned
Speaker 3: Jubert against me. That's when he decided he would never
Speaker 3: speak to me again.
Speaker 6: What are the details of the Ricky Stetson murder and
Speaker 6: how much different are they than the other ones? As
Speaker 6: you talked about escalation as diamond sophistication, yep, very very.
Speaker 3: Very similar to the others. Ricky Stetson had decided to
Speaker 3: go for a run around I think it's called back Bay.
Speaker 3: There's a cove up in Portland, and his family, you know,
Speaker 3: in this time in history, they were like sure, you know,
Speaker 3: so they let him go where his parents today would
Speaker 3: probably be much stricter and not want their child to
Speaker 3: be alone like this. So Ricky Stetson is out running
Speaker 3: around this cove and he's got a sweatsuit on, you know,
Speaker 3: sweatpants and a USA sweatshirt, and Jubert is on a bicycle,
Speaker 3: and all this has been building, you know. He's stabbed
Speaker 3: the girl in the back, he slashed the boy's throat,
Speaker 3: he stabbed the teacher in the chest. So it's escalating
Speaker 3: and it's never as good as the fantasy, as I've
Speaker 3: told you. And that's when it really the tipping point came.
Speaker 3: He came up beside Ricky Stetson and there was no
Speaker 3: one around. He pulled the knife on the young boy.
Speaker 3: And again this is you know, evidence that later would
Speaker 3: make a lot of since he made the boy pull
Speaker 3: his pants down to his underwear and stabbed him, slashed
Speaker 3: his throat and also bit the boy. So this is
Speaker 3: where it all the piece has all come together, as
Speaker 3: he had bitten Ricky Stetson's body, and he had bitten
Speaker 3: the boy Danny Joe Everley for sure in Nebraska, and
Speaker 3: if you'll remember, he talked about cannibalism in biting his
Speaker 3: babysitter after he killed her. So this is where the
Speaker 3: pieces all really came together. And the police in Portland
Speaker 3: almost charged the wrong person there as well, so there
Speaker 3: was a massive man hunt. They interviewed a lot of people,
Speaker 3: similar to the perport squad as they called it in Nebraska,
Speaker 3: almost charged the wrong person. Gibert joins the air Force.
Speaker 3: He escapes Portland and so the police have no idea
Speaker 3: that it's him. But in the book you'll read that
Speaker 3: police were canvassing the streets and actually stop Jubert in
Speaker 3: Portland and the police officer said what are you doing
Speaker 3: and he said, I'm on my way home, and the
Speaker 3: police officer said something to the effect be careful, there's
Speaker 3: a killer on the loose. So they came that close
Speaker 3: to catching him in Portland and didn't, and so Jubert
Speaker 3: escapes to Nebraska starts a new life. But then when
Speaker 3: the situation happened with his roommate that I mentioned earlier.
Speaker 3: It triggered his violent behavior to kick back in. And
Speaker 3: that's where it all started in Nebraska.
Speaker 6: Right now, you talk about Keith Howard and you bring
Speaker 6: him him in to assess those drawings. But before that,
Speaker 6: I don't think we talked about the incredible effort for
Speaker 6: people against you to get these drawings to be published,
Speaker 6: for you to see them, and for anybody else to
Speaker 6: see them. So can you further explain why there was
Speaker 6: this fight for this information to come out? And and
Speaker 6: now also tell us why it was important for prosecutors
Speaker 6: and for yourself. What was the importance of these drawings?
Speaker 3: Dan? For me, this was the stone left unturned in
Speaker 3: this case. It had bothered me tremendously that I had
Speaker 3: known about these drawings, and there are questions about the
Speaker 3: death penalty. There were all these questions, and I always
Speaker 3: felt that if John Jubert was on death row and
Speaker 3: he was drawing more killings, something was terribly wrong. And
Speaker 3: he had told me on multiple occasions, I'm going to
Speaker 3: get out of prison. I'm going to get out. And
Speaker 3: so what I found out after further research is that
Speaker 3: John Jubert had been meeting with the FBI and Bob
Speaker 3: Wrestler in fact, had come back to Nebraska and met
Speaker 3: with Jibert at least two to three times. And Jubert
Speaker 3: was cool operating with authorities. He was talking to them
Speaker 3: about the mind of a killer. He had even offered
Speaker 3: to go to crime scenes to help authorities solve other murders.
Speaker 3: So it started to make sense to me, is that
Speaker 3: Jubert is cooperating with the authorities and he thinks he's
Speaker 3: going to cut a deal. And so it hit me.
Speaker 3: Then there's this debate over the death penalty in Nebraska.
Speaker 3: I know about these drawings. Does that mean that Jubert
Speaker 3: would have certainly killed again if he had gotten out
Speaker 3: of prison. So, as I said, with the thirtieth anniversary
Speaker 3: of the crimes coming up, I decided to go back
Speaker 3: and try to get the drawings one more time. And
Speaker 3: when the prison officials found the drawings in the prison files,
Speaker 3: I was like, guys, this is it. We have now
Speaker 3: thirty years of scientific improvement. Let me get these analyzed
Speaker 3: by a criminal profiler. Let's find out what it meant.
Speaker 3: And it baffled me that the police and the prison
Speaker 3: system would fight this. Here's a killer who has been executed.
Speaker 3: There's new evidence, let's get it studied. But as my attorney,
Speaker 3: Bob Krieger in Nebraska, who I want to thank for
Speaker 3: all his hard work, said, this was not about the truth.
Speaker 3: It was about the bureaucracy. These were, you know, government
Speaker 3: employees who wanted to protect their jobs and keeping this
Speaker 3: information confidential was a way of doing it. So, as
Speaker 3: I said, Dan, we won on the district court level.
Speaker 3: They were supposed to turn the drawings over to me
Speaker 3: within sixty days. The Attorney General appealed and that's when
Speaker 3: the Nebraska Supreme Court decided to take it from the
Speaker 3: lower court and decide the case. So as this was
Speaker 3: happening and I'm waiting to go to trial, that's when
Speaker 3: I got the call from the confidential informant. It happens
Speaker 3: in Watergate, It's happened throughout history. It's always someone with
Speaker 3: the courage who excuse me, the knowledge that comes forward
Speaker 3: and makes this information available. And I've written in the
Speaker 3: book how this all happened, how I was at home
Speaker 3: on that Saturday night when the man called me, and
Speaker 3: it's just instinct. I was like, do you have a
Speaker 3: scanner at your home where you can send me to pictures,
Speaker 3: and he said, I don't know anything about technology. Let
Speaker 3: me put my wife on the phone. So he puts
Speaker 3: his wife on the phone and I said, ma'am, you've
Speaker 3: got the drawing. She described them to me and I
Speaker 3: said I knew that then, that it was the drawings.
Speaker 3: And I asked her did she have a scanner? She
Speaker 3: said no, and I said do you have a camera phone?
Speaker 3: And she said yes, And I said take photos of
Speaker 3: these images. And I gave her a private email or
Speaker 3: a way to get the images to me, so she
Speaker 3: says she can do it. So Dan, imagine it's five minutes.
Speaker 3: I'm sitting by myself. I grabbed my pad and I
Speaker 3: start writing my emotions, what I'm feeling at this very moment.
Speaker 3: Could this be it thirty years later? I'm going to
Speaker 3: get my hands on these drawings. And that's when I
Speaker 3: heard the ding, the ding of when you've got a
Speaker 3: new message or a new text. And there it was
Speaker 3: the message with two images attached. I clicked on the
Speaker 3: first image and it was the guy just as it
Speaker 3: had been described to me, standing over the young boy.
Speaker 3: The boy has tape around his mouth, he's tied up,
Speaker 3: and the man is stabbing him in the stomach. I
Speaker 3: click on the second image and I call it the
Speaker 3: Floating Boy, and it was almost more disturbing than the first.
Speaker 3: It's a boy that's nude, his hands are tied behind him,
Speaker 3: and his mouth again, he has tape around his mouth.
Speaker 3: So that's when I knew that I had the drawings,
Speaker 3: that this was what I'd been fighting for for all
Speaker 3: these years. And the person he said, this is wrong,
Speaker 3: you should have these And as it turned out, he
Speaker 3: was a member of the guard unit that had shaken
Speaker 3: down Jubert's cell and that's when they found the drawings.
Speaker 3: And all those years ago, he found them so disturbing
Speaker 3: that he made copies and had put them in a
Speaker 3: box in his closet and had forgotten about them till
Speaker 3: all this controversy happened. And they saw on the news
Speaker 3: that I was fighting to get these drawings made public.
Speaker 3: And the wife said, you have those drawings. That's what
Speaker 3: he's been fighting for, and they went to the closet
Speaker 3: and found them. So I flew to Nebraska prior and
Speaker 3: this is again it's you can't make this up. I
Speaker 3: am going out for the Supreme Court hearing, and I
Speaker 3: go meet the couple who has the drawing. They invite
Speaker 3: me to their home. I go in, We have a
Speaker 3: wonderful conversation. They bring the drawings out and the box out,
Speaker 3: and we talk all the way through it and they
Speaker 3: give me the drawings. At that point, and Dan, I
Speaker 3: had the drawings in my briefcase as the Supreme Court
Speaker 3: was hearing the case of whether they should be released. Again,
Speaker 3: this is a movie. So I'm sitting in court listening
Speaker 3: to the arguments and I'm saying, it doesn't matter. The
Speaker 3: case is solved. I have the drawings. And then you know,
Speaker 3: we had to wait for the decision, and the Supreme
Speaker 3: Court ruled against us in the state of Nebraska. So
Speaker 3: here I was in this dilemma. I had the drawings,
Speaker 3: but the Supreme Court had ruled against me, and there
Speaker 3: was this fierce debate over the death penalty in Nebraska.
Speaker 3: So I just held on. I was like, I'm not
Speaker 3: going to do this yet. And that's when, through law
Speaker 3: enforcement sources, I was introduced to the gentleman Keith Howard, who,
Speaker 3: as you said, and as I say in the book,
Speaker 3: had been trained by Bob Wrestler. What are the chances, right,
Speaker 3: Bob wrestler had trained him at the FBI Academy. I
Speaker 3: get introduced to Keith and I said, Keith, would you
Speaker 3: be willing to analyze these drawings for me? And he
Speaker 3: said absolutely, so I provided him the drawings, I gave
Speaker 3: him copies of my book. I gave him photos from
Speaker 3: the crime scene. I made things available to him that
Speaker 3: only I had seen. And Dan he comes back to
Speaker 3: me in like two weeks with his fully detailed assessment
Speaker 3: of what this was about. And I just knew at
Speaker 3: that point I couldn't keep this private. I couldn't keep
Speaker 3: this from the public that the public had a right
Speaker 3: to know. And that's when we decided, after the people
Speaker 3: of Nebraska voted to reinstate the death penalty, that I
Speaker 3: would make the drawings and the assessment from Keith Howard public.
Speaker 3: And that's what we did on December ninth of last
Speaker 3: year in the new book, which is called A Need
Speaker 3: to Kill the Death Row Drawings.
Speaker 6: It's interesting too. At first you just see the image
Speaker 6: of John Jubert on the cover, the mugshot, as you say,
Speaker 6: but also super imposed those two eerie drawings right on
Speaker 6: the front as well, so just adds to the eeriness
Speaker 6: of the book and the drawings in the book as well, yep, yep.
Speaker 3: And I did that for a reason. I wanted to
Speaker 3: show the innocence of the face and the evil of
Speaker 3: this man in one picture, and that's when I worked
Speaker 3: with the designer of the book cover to subtly place
Speaker 3: those drawings into that image and then to put the
Speaker 3: drawings into the book. And I need to somehow do
Speaker 3: a web page or a documentary on the drawings themselves
Speaker 3: so that people can really see the detail and the
Speaker 3: assessment of Keith Howard. So that's what I'm thinking about next,
Speaker 3: is either doing a documentary about the drawings or a
Speaker 3: docuseries like Making of a Murderer, so that people can
Speaker 3: really understand the mind of a killer through the technology
Speaker 3: and through the science that's now available to us that
Speaker 3: wasn't available at the time these crimes happened. It's like
Speaker 3: DNA DAN that has cleared so many people who were
Speaker 3: wrongfully accused and convicted many who were rightly accused. This
Speaker 3: is a modern day DNA and John Jubert was giving
Speaker 3: us a roadmap. He thought he was going to get
Speaker 3: out of prison. But these drawings prove and Keith Howard
Speaker 3: has confirmed that that would have been a very, very
Speaker 3: bad thing if he had been released from prison. Keith
Speaker 3: Howard says, there is absolutely no doubt that he would
Speaker 3: have killed again.
Speaker 6: We won't go into the whole assessment, but what was
Speaker 6: the most surprising thing or the most disturbing thing, shocking
Speaker 6: thing that you've got from that assessment.
Speaker 3: The most shocking thing was why the boys and the
Speaker 3: drawings were not blindfolded. As I said, they're bound with
Speaker 3: with rope and there's tape around their mouths. And I
Speaker 3: asked Keith Howart, I said, Keith, is this symbolic? Is
Speaker 3: this meaningful? He said, Mark, that is the critical clue
Speaker 3: in this whole piece. A sexual sadist. And I didn't
Speaker 3: really understand what that was. A sexual sadist is a
Speaker 3: person who gets sexual arousement from instilling fear in another person.
Speaker 3: So what you're seeing in these drawings is that the
Speaker 3: boys don't have a blindfold is because Jibbert wanted them
Speaker 3: to see what was about to happen to them, to
Speaker 3: elicit as much fear as possible, and for those boys
Speaker 3: and in his fantasies, to watch him murder them. So
Speaker 3: he didn't want them to scream he didn't want them
Speaker 3: to speak, but he wanted them to see what was
Speaker 3: about to happen to him. So Dan, I would think
Speaker 3: that to me is the most disturbing thing that has
Speaker 3: come out of this is that Gibbert was a sexual
Speaker 3: sadist and what they call it organized a who starts
Speaker 3: out sloppy and things become you know, they work to
Speaker 3: perfect their crimes. So, as you'll see in the drawing,
Speaker 3: there's some very unique detail, down to the belt that
Speaker 3: Jibbert's wearing, down to the glasses and the mustache of
Speaker 3: the man who's stabbing the young boy. Very serious detail,
Speaker 3: and that's because according to Keith Howard, he has played
Speaker 3: this over in his mind over and over. It's like
Speaker 3: a movie, so he knows the detail. But the most
Speaker 3: important thing for him is for the victim to be
Speaker 3: as frightened as possible, because that is the sexual gratification
Speaker 3: that Jubert got from these crimes. And so to me,
Speaker 3: that was the most diabolical part of this case. It's
Speaker 3: it's sad and it's you know, I almost felt guilty
Speaker 3: that I had formed sort of a relationship with Jubert,
Speaker 3: knowing now what I know of what he did to
Speaker 3: these kids and it was all a mind game and
Speaker 3: he was and I think it was a mind game
Speaker 3: for him with me at some point that I knew
Speaker 3: as much about this case as anyone but him, and
Speaker 3: he would ask me, have you thought about this? Did
Speaker 3: you check into this? And so being able to get
Speaker 3: these drawings has helped me get a finality to prove
Speaker 3: that Sheriff Pat Thomas was right when he told me
Speaker 3: twenty six years ago he's a cold blooded killer who
Speaker 3: likes to kill little kids. If he gets out of prison,
Speaker 3: he'll kill little kids again. And you know, Pat Thomas
Speaker 3: was right. And through these drawings I was able to
Speaker 3: prove he was right.
Speaker 6: The you said this is you've been involved with this
Speaker 6: for thirty years, with this these drawings, and when the
Speaker 6: release of this book, we always you know, overused expression cathartic,
Speaker 6: but a little bit of closure for you with this
Speaker 6: story at least.
Speaker 3: Yes, as I say I and I talk about this
Speaker 3: in the book, I couldn't let it go knowing about
Speaker 3: those drawings. I just said something. As a reporter, you
Speaker 3: can't leave facts dangling. And in this era of so
Speaker 3: called fake news, that bugs me when I hear that
Speaker 3: is that in this case. I worked for years. I've
Speaker 3: spent thousands of thousands of my own dollars trying to
Speaker 3: get these drawings. And it was ironic. You know, Warren
Speaker 3: Buffett is the richest man in the world, and he
Speaker 3: owns the Omaha World Herald, but they didn't join in
Speaker 3: the fight to get these drawings released. It was it
Speaker 3: was me by myself. And so when the Supreme Court
Speaker 3: ruled against this, I thought that was over. And then
Speaker 3: for this confidential source who had the curvedge to come
Speaker 3: forward and make these drawings available to me, it was
Speaker 3: just all the stars in the line that this was justice,
Speaker 3: that what I had worked so hard for had been proven,
Speaker 3: and I finally got to see these drawings and get
Speaker 3: them analyzed. And I think that's a public service and
Speaker 3: I'm proud of it, and I'm thankful for the sources
Speaker 3: who came forward, and I'm appreciative of Keith Howard who
Speaker 3: took all this time to really help us understand what
Speaker 3: these drawings mean and what they need and the whole
Speaker 3: scheme of Jubert's existence.
Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, and the thing is that we didn't
Speaker 6: get into too much. We don't have the time. But
Speaker 6: it's very it's incredible the prison visit you have with
Speaker 6: John Jubert and you say the difference and some of
Speaker 6: the surprising things that you said. He was so lackluster
Speaker 6: and so down in terms of his energy. There's one
Speaker 6: thing that you sort of rest in this, But again
Speaker 6: for the reader, it's going to explore this. It's just incredible,
Speaker 6: all the little stories within the stories and this incredible
Speaker 6: visit you have with him in prison.
Speaker 3: So to me, that's what it's all about, is when
Speaker 3: you're an investigative reporter and you get this sort of
Speaker 3: access to be able to tell the story from all angles,
Speaker 3: to dispel what you might think, Like I thought he
Speaker 3: was going to be an overbearing, you know, person killer
Speaker 3: And I walk in and he's this dumpy, frumpy guy, right,
Speaker 3: who had gained a lot of weight in prison. He
Speaker 3: didn't look like he looked when he was arrested. But again,
Speaker 3: how meek he seemed. And a couple of times I thought, well,
Speaker 3: the guards are not even paying attention. I could kill
Speaker 3: him in here. What if the parents had this opportunity?
Speaker 3: And that's one thing also that's very telling that I
Speaker 3: talk about in the book Day and I asked Hubert
Speaker 3: during our last inner, John, have you ever thought about
Speaker 3: killing me? You know, we're here in this room by ourselves,
Speaker 3: And he said, oh no, I could never kill you, Mark,
Speaker 3: I know you. I could never kill anyone I know.
Speaker 3: So that tells you a lot about this person, is
Speaker 3: that it was about anonymous victims that he didn't know
Speaker 3: that could satisfy his deepest, you know, sexual needs and
Speaker 3: the evil deeds that he committed.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Well, I want to thank you Mark for coming
Speaker 6: on and talking about A Need to Kill the Death
Speaker 6: Row drawings for those that might want to take a
Speaker 6: look at the trailer and other and the other versions
Speaker 6: of these editions of these books. Do you have a
Speaker 6: website and how can they might contact you if they're
Speaker 6: so inclined.
Speaker 3: Sure, if you are on Facebook, I would encourage you
Speaker 3: to go to Facebook. We have a site for a
Speaker 3: need to Kill. Just put that in the search bar
Speaker 3: I need to Kill and the site will come up.
Speaker 3: You'll get exclusive access. And I do encourage people to
Speaker 3: watch the trailer that we produced. You'll get a better
Speaker 3: look at the drawing. It was hard to reproduce them
Speaker 3: in the book due to the limitations of printing these days,
Speaker 3: paperbacks especially, but go to our Facebook page and watch
Speaker 3: the videos. Interact with us because it's an ongoing discussion
Speaker 3: where we release additional information, have a dialogue, and I
Speaker 3: look forward to people reading the book. Dan and I
Speaker 3: thank you so much for having me on your program
Speaker 3: and for profiling these type cases.
Speaker 6: Well, I want to thank you very much Mark for
Speaker 6: coming on and talking about this incredible case and this
Speaker 6: new edition of again an incredible book, no doubt a classic,
Speaker 6: A Need to Kill. So thank you very much, Mark
Speaker 6: for coming on and talking about A Need to Kill.
Speaker 6: Thank you, have a great night.
Speaker 3: You're very welcome.
Speaker 6: Thank you, good night,