Speaker 1: Step into the world of power, loyalty, and luck.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.
Speaker 1: With family, canoli's and spins mean everything.
Speaker 2: Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.
Speaker 1: Introducing the Godfather at champagasino dot com. Test your luck
Speaker 1: in the shadowy world at the Godfather slot.
Speaker 2: Someday I will call upon you to do a service
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: Play the Godfather now at chumpacasino dot com.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the family vdW group. Now perch is necessary
Speaker 3: if we were premitted by loss. He terms and conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 4: It is Ryan here and I have a question for you.
Speaker 4: What do you do when you win?
Speaker 5: Like?
Speaker 4: Are you at fist pumper, a woo, a handclapper, a
Speaker 4: high fiver? I kind of like the high five. But
Speaker 4: if you want to hone in on those winning moves,
Speaker 4: check out Chumpback Casino at chumbacasino dot com. Choose some
Speaker 4: hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to
Speaker 4: redeem serious cash prizes. There are new game releases weekly,
Speaker 4: plus free daily bonuses, so don't wait. Start having the
Speaker 4: most fun ever. At casino dot com.
Speaker 3: Bill Prett have the Where I Lost the terms conditions
Speaker 3: eighteen plus lot.
Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking
Speaker 6: Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Speaker 7: Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the
Speaker 7: program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime
Speaker 7: history and the authors that have written about them. In
Speaker 7: this explicit first hand account, a biker who spent forty
Speaker 7: six years as a member of the Hell's Angels and
Speaker 7: Satan's Choice invites best selling author Peter Edwards into the
Speaker 7: story of life lived as We've only imagined it. A
Speaker 7: kid raised by his father's fist on the wrong side
Speaker 7: of a blue collar town, Lorn Campbell grew up watching
Speaker 7: the local biker's ride past, making him wonder what that
Speaker 7: kind of freedom and power would feel like. He soon
Speaker 7: found out. At the age of seventeen, he became the
Speaker 7: youngest ever member of the Saint's Choice motorcycle club and
Speaker 7: spent the next five decades living a life for which
Speaker 7: he does not ask forgiveness, only that his story finally
Speaker 7: be told and that his family finally understand what drove
Speaker 7: him to live the life the way he did, with
Speaker 7: moments of terror and humor, great sadness, and the simple
Speaker 7: pleasures of camaraderie in the open road. Unrepentant is a
Speaker 7: book like none other. The book with that we are
Speaker 7: featuring this evening is Unrepentant, the strength and sometimes terrible
Speaker 7: life of Lauren Campbell, Satan's Choice and Hell's Angel Biker.
Speaker 7: Welcome to the program, and thank you to a Green
Speaker 7: for this interview Lauren Edwards and pardon me, Peter Edwards
Speaker 7: and Lauren Campbell. Welcome to the program, gentlemen.
Speaker 8: Oh thanks for having us.
Speaker 7: Good evening, Lauren. Yeah, good evening, Lauren Campbell.
Speaker 8: Think with you on.
Speaker 7: I Well, it shows that he is very much like
Speaker 7: you are. Yes, I'll try it in here. Good evening,
Speaker 7: Lauren Campbell, Good, Lauren, h still says whole time, so
Speaker 7: I'm not quite sure.
Speaker 8: Anyway.
Speaker 7: Welcome to the program, Peter and this congratulations on a
Speaker 7: very very interesting, unusual, unique and fascinating book. Lauren seems
Speaker 7: Lauren seems to have hung up, So I'm hoping he's
Speaker 7: just gonna call right back in and get in the queue.
Speaker 7: There seemed to have been some problem when he.
Speaker 8: Was on HOLDAK and.
Speaker 7: Well we normally don't have a break. But he'll he'll
Speaker 7: call back in. I'm I'm certain of that, because I'm
Speaker 7: sure he'll call back anyway. I wanted to ask you.
Speaker 7: I guess I'll ask some questions of you that specifically
Speaker 7: that really don't need the input from Lauren at this point.
Speaker 7: What compelled you to write it? Here? We do have
Speaker 7: Lurin right here. We'll see, we'll get him back on here.
Speaker 5: Is this a.
Speaker 7: Yes, good evening, Lauren. Sorry about that technical error.
Speaker 5: I was hearing you, guys, but you couldn't hear me.
Speaker 7: There we go, Well everything straightened out. Welcome to the program.
Speaker 7: And like I had said to Peter, congratulations on a
Speaker 7: very pressing and fascinating book.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much.
Speaker 7: Now I was going to ask Peter Edwards and then
Speaker 7: I'll quickly ask you, without you, guys, revealing too much
Speaker 7: of this incredible story. I'm going to ask the basic
Speaker 7: question of Peter, and I'll ask the same question of you.
Speaker 7: And that is what brought why Peter Edwards, Peter, Why
Speaker 7: did you want to do this story? What you've written
Speaker 7: about organized crimes the last time I had you on
Speaker 7: your book Bendido Massacre, But specifically, why did you want
Speaker 7: to write this kind of book which is a lot
Speaker 7: different than any book that you've written before, in any
Speaker 7: kind of organized crime book that I've ever read. Tell
Speaker 7: us why you wanted to work with Lauren Campbell and
Speaker 7: this book book about the beginnings of the Saint's Choice
Speaker 7: and Hell's Angels here in Canada. Tell us about why
Speaker 7: you wanted to work on this book.
Speaker 8: Well, I think you kind of answered it, you know, like,
Speaker 8: it wasn't the way Learne was talking. It wasn't something
Speaker 8: I had heard before, and it wasn't it wasn't something
Speaker 8: I'd read before, and so it was neat to do
Speaker 8: something that was really fresh. I it took it took
Speaker 8: a while before I was I was convinced that you
Speaker 8: know that he actually would would be as good as
Speaker 8: I hoped he would be, And you know, he turned
Speaker 8: out he was actually better. So but it a lot
Speaker 8: of people have have good stories. Learned had a great story,
Speaker 8: but a lot of people are afraid of telling his
Speaker 8: stories and learn wasn't afraid at all. I mean he
Speaker 8: it was very big on doing it as as as
Speaker 8: well as we could so that no one could say
Speaker 8: that that we held back or you know, didn't tell
Speaker 8: the truth or didn't give him their money's worth. And
Speaker 8: when I could really sense his commitment, I got pretty
Speaker 8: excited about it.
Speaker 7: Right now, I asked the same question of you, Lauren,
Speaker 7: why of why on earth would you want to do
Speaker 7: this book? What are what is the real, most important,
Speaker 7: biggest reason why you wanted to write this book.
Speaker 5: So you could read it? Then? No, the reason for
Speaker 5: it was I have been told through the years by
Speaker 5: my friends and family, you should write a book because
Speaker 5: I'd be sitting there telling stories along with other people,
Speaker 5: and I suppose maybe some of my stories were more
Speaker 5: interesting than anybody else's. And I'd heard that through the years.
Speaker 5: And I was sitting with my friends here that we
Speaker 5: live with, Old Video and Elizabeth Sanchez, and we were
Speaker 5: sitting here and just the three of us having a
Speaker 5: pop and they said, two years ago, you should write
Speaker 5: a book, Lauren, And I said, okay, that's you know,
Speaker 5: just get out of jail. I did four and a
Speaker 5: half years in jail just prior to that, and I thought,
Speaker 5: what a good idea. You know, there's been other people
Speaker 5: tell me that, like I say, but they they just
Speaker 5: you know, it hit me, Yes, I should write a book,
Speaker 5: and I did. I was looking for an author and
Speaker 5: in the end I couldn't have got a better author
Speaker 5: to write my book in Peter And anyways, that's that's
Speaker 5: what did.
Speaker 7: You come to? How did you come to meet Peter
Speaker 7: and and know of his work and then make the
Speaker 7: decision to say, you know, I trust this author to
Speaker 7: tell the story.
Speaker 5: Well, it was true. A friend of ours, Mary Liscom
Speaker 5: is her name, she's she's a photographer and writer herself.
Speaker 5: And I my wife and I had I just went
Speaker 5: to my heart specialist and uh and on the way
Speaker 5: uh home, we we met her, just coincidentally seen her
Speaker 5: and we went out to dinner.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: And we're sitting out in the patio at this place
Speaker 5: in in uh there, uh New Market, and I was
Speaker 5: looking for a writer and she said, boy, I know
Speaker 5: that I know the guy. I know the guy that'll
Speaker 5: want to write it for you. And it was Peter.
Speaker 5: And Peter covered our case, my last case in court.
Speaker 5: It was criminal organization case, big case and the actually
Speaker 5: the longest running trial in Canadian history, and he covered
Speaker 5: it coincidentally, and uh yeah, she introducess to Peter and
Speaker 5: and it went from there. It was it was. Peter
Speaker 5: was a godsend, you know, I to write my book.
Speaker 5: He just was the man after I got to know him,
Speaker 5: and I had already read the Bandido Massacre, and that
Speaker 5: is what made me peck Peter. Peter never with the characters,
Speaker 5: you know what, I wanted my book to be about
Speaker 5: full characters, not just this person did that, that person
Speaker 5: did this. I didn't want that, and Peter was the man.
Speaker 5: I read that and I seen how he was with
Speaker 5: you know, pretty bad characters, Okay, pretty rough and bad
Speaker 5: characters involved in the bad Detle massacre. And you know,
Speaker 5: he never run anybody down. And I've been a biker
Speaker 5: all my life and I didn't want that. I didn't
Speaker 5: want him to like. I wanted full characters, if you
Speaker 5: understand what I mean, Dan, I wanted full characters. And
Speaker 5: we made the deal. I wasn't going to lie. I
Speaker 5: was going to tell the truth. And you know what,
Speaker 5: the interesting people I've met and it worked out well
Speaker 5: between me and Peter.
Speaker 7: Peter and I now, Peter what we spoke of just
Speaker 7: before we went on air. Was that I had asked you,
Speaker 7: you know, basically I congratulated in the book, and I said,
Speaker 7: you know, this is not really like a memoir, and
Speaker 7: I'm glad you didn't call it that because people have
Speaker 7: the sort of impression what that is. In your response
Speaker 7: was that I have to I have a certain responsibility
Speaker 7: as a journalist. You've got ten nonfiction books, You've got
Speaker 7: twenty five years under your belt as a serious journalist,
Speaker 7: So tell us what you have to do. Once you
Speaker 7: did meet Lauren, once you thought, hey, this guy's a
Speaker 7: real deal. But what did you still have to do
Speaker 7: as a journalist as your duty to make sure that
Speaker 7: you wrote an unflinching but yet truthful book.
Speaker 8: We didn't really clear about our role. Like Lauren could
Speaker 8: could comment on anything, could double check the facts. But
Speaker 8: but on the other hand, i'd I'd be checking what
Speaker 8: he what he said, and I wanted his prison records.
Speaker 8: He got his prison psychiatric records so that I could check,
Speaker 8: you know, who I was dealing with. He also got
Speaker 8: his father's military records I got. I double checked what
Speaker 8: he was saying, because you know, someone can be likable,
Speaker 8: but you don't know what they're going to be like
Speaker 8: under pressure, and there is pressure during a book. And
Speaker 8: so I was double checking him and and you know,
Speaker 8: what he was saying was turning out to be true.
Speaker 8: And there's sometimes one I'd have a couple of things
Speaker 8: and he'd add something else that would explain it, but
Speaker 8: it wouldn't It wouldn't make him look any better, but
Speaker 8: it would make the story more understandable. He'd make it.
Speaker 8: He wasn't shy about going into his motivation, and he
Speaker 8: didn't He doesn't mind criticizing himself. He doesn't mind. You
Speaker 8: don't have to sort of tiptoe around and pretend everything's great.
Speaker 8: You know, he'll he can be his own hrsh's critic
Speaker 8: on a lot of things.
Speaker 7: Right now, we don't have all the time that we
Speaker 7: really would have to have to really examine this. But
Speaker 7: I really liked how you included your upbringing and so
Speaker 7: of course how you were shaped, how you think your
Speaker 7: character was shaped. So tell us, Lauren, how it was
Speaker 7: growing up, where you grew up and the sort of
Speaker 7: life that you that shaped who you became as a teenager.
Speaker 5: Okay, that's not a difficult question, but it's a good question.
Speaker 5: I grew up ruff. I grew up in what they
Speaker 5: call the ghetto in Oshaua, down in the South End.
Speaker 5: I was beaten a lot as a kid. Anything that
Speaker 5: I did wrong, I was beaten. I got sent to
Speaker 5: the training school when I was thirteen years old and
Speaker 5: I saw boy, Yeah, you know the story about the
Speaker 5: kids in the box. I thought that everybody was like
Speaker 5: I was. I truly thought that, you know. I became
Speaker 5: in the training school thirteen and fourteen years. I turned
Speaker 5: fourteen and went to Covert Training School, then Bounmaville Training School.
Speaker 5: I turned fourteen. I was the rock of the school
Speaker 5: when I left. That's just a name that they give
Speaker 5: a guide. It's the toughest guy in the joint. And
Speaker 5: after I come out, I used to see motorcycles going
Speaker 5: by my front window. I lived downtown in Oshaua. That's
Speaker 5: where I was born and raised. Asha was a tough town.
Speaker 5: We had a lot of Boston clubs, and I fought
Speaker 5: all my life. And you know, that's okay with me.
Speaker 5: I was told by my dad when I was eight
Speaker 5: years old, there ain't any fifteen year old kid in
Speaker 5: the Boston club that could beat my son. Okay, but
Speaker 5: I watched the bike clubs. I would watch them go by,
Speaker 5: and it was just beautiful to me. That's what I wanted,
Speaker 5: you know, that's the life I wanted. I seen the brotherhood.
Speaker 5: I seen them fight, and I fought all my life
Speaker 5: for what they believed in, and I wanted to be long.
Speaker 5: I didn't have really much of a My parents loved me,
Speaker 5: but I didn't have much of a family life. They
Speaker 5: all loved me. My dad had thirteen kids, I mean
Speaker 5: my grandchildren. My grandparents had thirteen kids on my dad's side,
Speaker 5: and I think five on my mother's side, and they
Speaker 5: all love But you know, it wasn't really know. I
Speaker 5: was beaten a lot by my dad, not my mother,
Speaker 5: you know, my mother wouldn't do that, but by my dad.
Speaker 5: And you know, I thought every kid grew up like that.
Speaker 5: I seen the bikers. I fought with the bikers. I
Speaker 5: stuck by them. I was only a teenager. And then
Speaker 5: when I was seventeen years old, I was I went
Speaker 5: to the President's home and fought a guy. Did I
Speaker 5: Twenty years later it's in the book, and I don't
Speaker 5: want to reveal what's in the book.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you know, now, tell us tell us more us,
Speaker 7: tell us a little bit more about the event. You
Speaker 7: say you got in a fight at the well, tell
Speaker 7: us about that event and then what was offered to you, which, well,
Speaker 7: it was a.
Speaker 5: Just told by that my friend that I grew up
Speaker 5: since I was a young kid, that I went to
Speaker 5: school with, was beat up by three guys. So I
Speaker 5: was going around this dance hall and I'm looking for
Speaker 5: these guys and I come out the front and here's
Speaker 5: the president of Satan's Choice and the two other guys
Speaker 5: that actually started Satan's Choice. And that's where it started
Speaker 5: in Oshawa. Talking to these guys, know, I hear one
Speaker 5: of them say they want to fight. They want to
Speaker 5: go to Bernie Gwynon's house and fight because his basement
Speaker 5: was set up.
Speaker 1: Like a.
Speaker 5: Boxing ring. So I went over to Bernie and I
Speaker 5: didn't know him. I knew a couple of other guys
Speaker 5: through my family and that. But I said, listen, do
Speaker 5: you mind if I come over because these three guys
Speaker 5: just beat the shit out of my friend John, And
Speaker 5: they didn't. I founked out later that they didn't, but
Speaker 5: nevertheless Bernie said yeah, okay. So we went down, you know,
Speaker 5: and Bernie put gloves on with. There was two karate
Speaker 5: guys and one Golden Gloves boxer, and Bernie was ended
Speaker 5: up to be North American British Commonwealth champion. You know,
Speaker 5: that's actually my longest running friend, Bernie Guinnon, and he
Speaker 5: started the choice. So he had to fight with the
Speaker 5: first guy and knocked him out. My fight was the
Speaker 5: second fight. The only rules were. Now keep in mind, Dan,
Speaker 5: I'm seventeen years old. I'm a pretty tough character, but
Speaker 5: I've never been involved in morzyo clubs before, so it's all,
Speaker 5: you know, like it's all alien to me too and romantic,
Speaker 5: you know. So my fight was next, and I said,
Speaker 5: Bernie said, you have to wear running shoes. If somebody
Speaker 5: goes down, if the other guy goes down, you can't
Speaker 5: kick him, and that's my rules. Anyways, I'm a pretty
Speaker 5: fair fighter. So it didn't last any more than two
Speaker 5: seconds and one of the Hamilton guys I got on
Speaker 5: the ground. I didn't kick him, but the guy who
Speaker 5: Bertie fought thought I was going to. So he's up
Speaker 5: behind me and he grasped me by the shoulder, swings
Speaker 5: me around after I've already dropped this other guy. Bernie
Speaker 5: seen what was happened. He swung him around and knocked
Speaker 5: him out cold again, and I swear to god, I
Speaker 5: thought he was dead. I thought this character was dead
Speaker 5: because his eyes there was only the whites of his
Speaker 5: eyes that I seen, and I thought, holy fuck, I'm
Speaker 5: pardoning my language. But I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to
Speaker 5: sweark got holy cow the guy. The guys did and
Speaker 5: he wasn't. Then later on that night we sat and
Speaker 5: had a few pops, like the guys in Hamlin and us.
Speaker 5: You know, I'm not a member or anything. And I
Speaker 5: was asked that night to join Satan's Choice. They didn't
Speaker 5: know I was seventeen years old. But that night because
Speaker 5: of that, and that's in a nutshell what happened. And
Speaker 5: I said yeah. And I told guys later years and
Speaker 5: years later. You know, they they'll strike for six months
Speaker 5: or with the Hell's Angels, you you hang around for
Speaker 5: a year and your prospect for a year. And I
Speaker 5: would joke only say to the guys, boy, I struck
Speaker 5: and it was the worst three three weeks of my life.
Speaker 5: You know. So that was or that we throw at
Speaker 5: each other. Does that answer your question?
Speaker 7: Yes, it does, ye, Peter, Now you've been involved with
Speaker 7: these types of books and these types of cases as
Speaker 7: as a journalist and a nonfiction author. Organized crime and
Speaker 7: which includes criminal organizations which well, at least tells Angels
Speaker 7: have been deemed the criminal organization. How interesting or tell
Speaker 7: us about sort of the moment that you did you
Speaker 7: understand that through Lauren Campbell you're getting the essentially and
Speaker 7: I don't know how much of that history you knew essentially,
Speaker 7: but the origins of Saying's Choice with Bernie Gwyna, did
Speaker 7: you just as you just mentioned, and then the Hell's
Speaker 7: Angels absorbing clubs like the Satan's Choice later on in
Speaker 7: the history of outlaw biker clubs in Canada. Tell us
Speaker 7: about what that meant to you in terms of valuable information,
Speaker 7: interesting information and information you may not have known before
Speaker 7: and of course valuable as you are that type of
Speaker 7: journalist writing about these types of cases.
Speaker 8: It showed you what across section there was I mean
Speaker 8: not not everything is a criminal organization. And one thing
Speaker 8: with Lauren it was kind of funny, was it. He
Speaker 8: said at one point that Satan's Choice was a lot
Speaker 8: of it was crime, but it wasn't really organized crime,
Speaker 8: like he kind of disputed the word organized, and so
Speaker 8: a lot of it is, you know, just sort of
Speaker 8: the personalities. I think. I think that sometimes you're trying
Speaker 8: to figure out something from the outside and you don't
Speaker 8: have a clue, and then when when someone the explains
Speaker 8: personalities to you, it makes it makes sense. I think
Speaker 8: sometimes people look at this stuff like a James Bond movie,
Speaker 8: where it's, you know, a big master plan to take
Speaker 8: over the world, and then when you hear what's going on,
Speaker 8: it's a lot more, a lot more human, like, a
Speaker 8: lot more you can understand it, you know, not from
Speaker 8: a business point of view as much as from a
Speaker 8: you know, human point of view why people are doing things.
Speaker 8: I mean, one guy in the book got got strung
Speaker 8: up and he didn't die, but he got strung up
Speaker 8: and it was for not bringing a beer, which which
Speaker 8: you know he is embarrassing and it undercuts people, and
Speaker 8: it all makes sense when you get into the mindset
Speaker 8: of people at the party. But from the outside it
Speaker 8: looks like it looks pretty insane to string a guy
Speaker 8: up over over a drink. But when you think of
Speaker 8: how the guy was embarrassing them publicly and the consequences
Speaker 8: of being embarrassed, then you can start getting into, you know,
Speaker 8: understanding why this happened. That's the sort of stuff you
Speaker 8: can only get when you're talking to someone who's actually
Speaker 8: on the inside. On the outside, you you know, you
Speaker 8: might see the guy dangling from the tree, but you
Speaker 8: didn't have a clue why you got up there, right.
Speaker 7: And you know it's interesting too, is that there's not
Speaker 7: that much documentation. I know, I've seen a couple of
Speaker 7: documentaries about, you know, the origins of Satan's Choice and
Speaker 7: was interesting with that. You included in your book about
Speaker 7: a film director named Shabib information. I didn't know exactly
Speaker 7: who this guy was. Tell us about Bernie Gwindon, How
Speaker 7: did he become the leader of the Saints Choice. Tell
Speaker 7: us a little bit about the history of that lorn,
Speaker 7: about the other other biker clubs that he drew from,
Speaker 7: and his and the rivalry with Johnny Sombrero. Tell Us
Speaker 7: tell us about the origins of Satan's Choice and Bernie
Speaker 7: Gwindon and how that all began.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's to me, it's interesting, and I hope to
Speaker 5: other people it would be just as interesting. Bernie was
Speaker 5: was a Goldenhawk writer. The Black Diamond Riders were invited
Speaker 5: to Pebblestone Park I think it was called, just outside
Speaker 5: of Oshaua and on beknownst to the Goldenhawks, the Black
Speaker 5: Diamond Riders, they were cutting down trees and tree stumps
Speaker 5: for weapons and beat the snot out of the Goldenhawks,
Speaker 5: and you know, the Goldenhawks weren't ready for it. So
Speaker 5: after that, Bernie Gwynon and Redshawk and carmen' neil, there
Speaker 5: was three members started the Phantom Riders. They left the Goldenhawks.
Speaker 5: Bernie was one of the guys that stood up to
Speaker 5: the Black Diamond Riders and they were a tough crew.
Speaker 5: You know, you can't say enough about them because they
Speaker 5: were a tough, tough crew. And anyways, things a different
Speaker 5: back then. But they started the Phantom Writers motorcycle club
Speaker 5: in Oshawa then Shabibe. They wanted to make a just
Speaker 5: a national film board thing on motorcycle clubs, right, so
Speaker 5: they went to the Vagabonds and the Paradise Writers and
Speaker 5: one of them didn't have enough members, the other one
Speaker 5: didn't want to do it. I can't remember which was which,
Speaker 5: but they come to Bernie and he said, yeah, like,
Speaker 5: let's do it. So he went to there was let
Speaker 5: me see Toronto Twisters the plague. Oh geez, there was
Speaker 5: four clubs. There's from Toronto. Let me think now, there's
Speaker 5: two clubs from Toronto, road Runners and the Canadian Lancers.
Speaker 5: They said okay, and they decided to put on the
Speaker 5: Satan's Choice patch to make this documentary. So after the
Speaker 5: documentary was made, it was only it was like seventeen
Speaker 5: or eighteen hours of film, but they cut it down
Speaker 5: to half an hour and it was a National Film Board.
Speaker 5: In fact, I've got it here somewhere, And they made
Speaker 5: that and Bernie talked the other clubs into leaving the
Speaker 5: Satan's Choice patch on their backs. And it was like
Speaker 5: fuck you too. It was like you or Black Din writers,
Speaker 5: you can't. You can't hurt us anymore. That's what it was.
Speaker 5: So they kept the patch and that was the first
Speaker 5: four chapters and it grew from the book.
Speaker 7: Group think Bernie likes in the sixties, but Satan's Choice
Speaker 7: was an earlier There was an earlier version with some
Speaker 7: young guys. They had been strapped to their patch. But
Speaker 7: Bernie liked that. He was looking for a name and
Speaker 7: he liked he liked the look of it in the
Speaker 7: name right.
Speaker 5: Yes, yeah, you know about it, don't you.
Speaker 6: Dan?
Speaker 5: Anyways, Yes, that's absolutely true. The Bernie liked the name.
Speaker 5: He went to Don Norris, who was the first Satan's
Speaker 5: Choice that got wiped out by the Black Dime writers.
Speaker 5: Don was the first Satan's Choice, and he asked, on
Speaker 5: what you mind if we used the Satan's Choice name
Speaker 5: and the patch it was exactly the same patch, just
Speaker 5: a different material, And Don said yes, and the rest
Speaker 5: is history. We became all the chapters from then on. All.
Speaker 7: Right, now, Peter, what was your biggest task with this
Speaker 7: as opposed to all the other writing that you normally
Speaker 7: do covering trials and then all the non fiction books
Speaker 7: and the research. Was there anything different here? And if
Speaker 7: it was, what was the bulk of what you really
Speaker 7: had to do here to be successful? In your mind
Speaker 7: with this book?
Speaker 8: The trick was I mean, it would have been easy
Speaker 8: to write an eight hundred page book because there's a
Speaker 8: ton of stuff, but you know, we didn't want to
Speaker 8: scare people away with just too much, too many pages,
Speaker 8: Like the trick was boiling it down. You know, there
Speaker 8: were a lot of really interesting stories that if they
Speaker 8: sounded kind of the same, you'd have to take the
Speaker 8: best one, or you'd have to take stuff from different
Speaker 8: years to you know, to have it flow along. And
Speaker 8: so the usually sometimes when you're doing a book, you
Speaker 8: have this this panic after you assign the deal that
Speaker 8: you might not have the information. This one, it was
Speaker 8: more just tons of information. I mean, we could have
Speaker 8: gone on for years and years working on this thing.
Speaker 8: I'd talk to Lauren every week for seven or eight hours,
Speaker 8: and I'd go up to his place with about forty
Speaker 8: questions and you know, always by the end of it,
Speaker 8: the forty would be answered and a bunch of dire
Speaker 8: a bunch of new stuff, and then I'd you know,
Speaker 8: I'd have enough to to write twenty thirty pages a week.
Speaker 8: So they getting the material wasn't a problem. It was
Speaker 8: more just trying to figure what themes to cover, you know,
Speaker 8: his you know, his family versus the club, you know,
Speaker 8: his childhood versus what it's like in prison, all these
Speaker 8: different things you had to had to cover. It was
Speaker 8: it was a great, great feeling to know that there's
Speaker 8: always material and that I didn't have to you know,
Speaker 8: argue with him were or you know, try and finesse
Speaker 8: it out of him. He was he was working like
Speaker 8: he He learned the smart guy and he knew what
Speaker 8: we were doing, you know, what our job was, and he,
Speaker 8: you know, went at it like a partner. Usually I
Speaker 8: have to try and pry stuff out people right.
Speaker 7: Right right, And and so what did you did you
Speaker 7: come away, even though you've written about bikers before an
Speaker 7: organized crime, did you come away with a better understanding,
Speaker 7: a more comprehensive understanding of what it takes to be
Speaker 7: a biker and why anybody would want to be a biker.
Speaker 8: You know, you look at it less as an organization
Speaker 8: than there's a collection of people and there's a lot
Speaker 8: of things you start to wonder, Like it makes you wonder,
Speaker 8: you know, what kind of a father was I? Because
Speaker 8: you could see the influence of Lauren's father on him,
Speaker 8: and it'd make you think, you know what was I?
Speaker 8: Like you know with my kids, it would it would
Speaker 8: kind of put you in that there but go for
Speaker 8: the there, but for the grace of God, go I.
Speaker 8: I sort of thing like you hear about people who
Speaker 8: had some pretty hard stories, you know who who had
Speaker 8: a pretty rough when they were they were young, and
Speaker 8: how they coped with it. Also it it it it
Speaker 8: impressed me how Larn's kept a sense of humor when
Speaker 8: you said, a lot of incredibly rough things happen, you know,
Speaker 8: around them. So it it just show you coping to
Speaker 8: you know, like you know someone keep the sense of
Speaker 8: humor and everything's been taken away, and you know they've
Speaker 8: been stripped of things that they've worked for. It. It
Speaker 8: does get to you to think we're in a human
Speaker 8: level about how people can can survive and move on. Hey,
Speaker 8: it also shows you how you can you can really
Speaker 8: get along with someone even though your your life isn't
Speaker 8: that much like their life in a lot of ways,
Speaker 8: you can still be friends with somebody when you know,
Speaker 8: on the surface you might not have that much in common.
Speaker 7: Yes, certainly, certainly. Now, Lauren, the title of this book
Speaker 7: is Unrepentant, And so I've got to ask, obviously you
Speaker 7: agreed with the title. I don't know if you came
Speaker 7: up with it, but it's certainly representative of you and
Speaker 7: this book. I certainly understand why it's it's an appropriate title.
Speaker 7: But tell us why you were you felt this was
Speaker 7: an appropriate title? Unrepentant? And what does that mean to
Speaker 7: people that just look at it? What are they supposed
Speaker 7: to take away from that when they see unrepentant and
Speaker 7: this life that you've lived.
Speaker 5: Oh, I hate the title I was here to pick
Speaker 5: up now, I'm just kidding. I love the title because
Speaker 5: when you look at the book, I hope that people
Speaker 5: see all aspects of my personality. I do have a
Speaker 5: sense of humor. But during the days of the days
Speaker 5: when I was pretty harsh and I collected money, I
Speaker 5: was a harsh person and I don't have regrets. In
Speaker 5: case anybody asks, I don't have regrets for the people
Speaker 5: that got hurt while I was collecting money, and because
Speaker 5: that is the that's the life, and I was playing
Speaker 5: the life in the life, I should say, and other
Speaker 5: people were playing the life, so if they got hurt,
Speaker 5: so be it. And I have no regrets. I have
Speaker 5: regrets in my life, but it's not when it comes
Speaker 5: to the people that were dealing drugs or the people
Speaker 5: that I was collecting from. I have absolutely no regret
Speaker 5: or remorse. That's just the fact that I live a
Speaker 5: different life now. I've always loved my family. I've always
Speaker 5: been true, and I've always my family and friends. I've
Speaker 5: always protected them, and I have not had any fear
Speaker 5: towards myself. I've been shot insteaded more than anybody I know,
Speaker 5: and I've never I've never had any any fear over it,
Speaker 5: except for the ones that I love or close my
Speaker 5: family or the people that I love. And it's just
Speaker 5: the way it is now. I just live a different life,
Speaker 5: you know. I'm with my family now. I cherish my
Speaker 5: family more than ever. And it's a different life.
Speaker 7: Now.
Speaker 1: You say, step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.
Speaker 2: I'm gonna make him an offer you can't refuse.
Speaker 1: With family, canolis and spins mean everything.
Speaker 2: Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.
Speaker 1: Introducing the Godfather at champacasino dot com. Test your luck
Speaker 1: in the shadowy world at the Godfather Slough.
Speaker 2: Someday I will call upon you to do a service
Speaker 2: for me.
Speaker 1: Play the Godfather now at Champacasino dot com.
Speaker 3: Welcome to the Family vdW Group. No purchase necessary. If
Speaker 3: we were bribitted by loss, he terms and conditions eighteen plus.
Speaker 4: Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an
Speaker 4: extra bright spot in our day? Could we just to
Speaker 4: make up for things like sitting in traffic, doing the dishes,
Speaker 4: counting or steps, you know, all the mundane stuff. That
Speaker 4: is why I'm such a big fan of Chumpa Casino.
Speaker 4: Chumpa Casino has oil your favorite social casino style games
Speaker 4: you can play for free anytime anywhere with daily bonuses.
Speaker 4: That's your brighten your day lowe actually a lot. So
Speaker 4: sign up now at Chumbuck Casino dot com. That's Chumbuck
Speaker 4: Casino dot com.
Speaker 2: You'll necessary daie.
Speaker 3: I lost in terms conditions eighteen plus and what.
Speaker 7: I did in the introduction is we spoke about that.
Speaker 7: This book is also to explain some things to your
Speaker 7: own family, and I guess close friends and critics. I
Speaker 7: guess people that think again. I use the word criminal
Speaker 7: organization because that's the language sometimes is a criminal organization?
Speaker 7: And can I every motorcycle club is fought against that stereotype, right?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 5: Can I just explain that for anybody that's listening. I
Speaker 5: don't really explain my life. I don't feel that I
Speaker 5: have to do that. But in two thousand and seven
Speaker 5: I got arrested. I spent fifteen months in jail along
Speaker 5: with three other people. In the end, and we fought
Speaker 5: criminal organization charges and they threw everything at us. It
Speaker 5: was the longest running trial in Canadian history. And I
Speaker 5: can't tell you enough how much they tried to throw
Speaker 5: that criminal organization thing at us. And we won. We won,
Speaker 5: hands down. I said. Right from the first I told
Speaker 5: my guys we're all Hell's Angels. I told them, we'll
Speaker 5: fight this in front of a jury of our peers.
Speaker 5: This may sound goofy me saying this, Dan, It may
Speaker 5: sound a little bit goofy, and you know, but we
Speaker 5: did fight it. You know, a lot of guys wanted
Speaker 5: to to plead to this and please to that. But
Speaker 5: in the end, four of us fought it, and they
Speaker 5: threw everything at us, and we won. You know, I'm
Speaker 5: very proud of that. When I say we want, I don't.
Speaker 5: I don't say it through bitterness. From now on, it's
Speaker 5: in my rear view mirror, so you have to anybody
Speaker 5: listening have understand that. But we won the case. And
Speaker 5: it was three months preliminary and nine months of every
Speaker 5: day going to going to court, a nine month trial.
Speaker 5: And when when they talk about criminal organization, we won that.
Speaker 5: No matter what anybody says about Hell's Angels, they are
Speaker 5: not a criminal organization. So you know, maybe I do
Speaker 5: sound arrogant, but you know, we want it and we
Speaker 5: want it hard. We want it fair and we want
Speaker 5: it hard. The judge was fair, the jury was fair.
Speaker 5: And uh, you know I could, I could swear, but
Speaker 5: I won't.
Speaker 7: I'll last this question. You know, you include in the
Speaker 7: book about the famous movie Wild, the Wild one with
Speaker 7: Marlon Brando and Lee Marvin, and you like the Lee
Speaker 7: Marvin character and the idea of freedom. And you used
Speaker 7: to see club members going by on their bikes and
Speaker 7: you and you thought that is you've envisioned that as
Speaker 7: a freedom and and power. Has this been worth it?
Speaker 7: All the years in prison? And is it is? I
Speaker 7: know you don't really say it with the book, but
Speaker 7: I mean I'm asking you in your life, was this
Speaker 7: fight for freedom personal freedom? All the prison, all the
Speaker 7: all the tribulation, is it worth.
Speaker 5: I explained the prison part. I used to you know,
Speaker 5: I've done years in prison. Uh you know, that's just
Speaker 5: a fact. I've done years in prison. Now, when I've
Speaker 5: been out of prison, I've sat there with friends and
Speaker 5: friends' children's as their children, and we used to laugh
Speaker 5: and joke about all of the good times we had
Speaker 5: in prison and the funny things we had in prison.
Speaker 5: And you have to catch what I'm saying. Please, But
Speaker 5: I would notice after a few years, I would notice
Speaker 5: that these kids, they're in their teens or even less
Speaker 5: less than that, they would be listening to us and
Speaker 5: they would be looking at us like we're heroes. Well,
Speaker 5: we would never talk about the hardships in prison. I've
Speaker 5: been locked up for months at a time in that's
Speaker 5: twenty four hour lockup, and I thought, and I'd see
Speaker 5: these children looking at me. So I stopped doing that.
Speaker 5: I stopped talking about how much fun we had at
Speaker 5: certain times in prison because these kids, and a lot
Speaker 5: of these has ended up going to jail. So I
Speaker 5: stopped doing that. And you know, I'm nothing special. I'm
Speaker 5: not a morality guy. Like you know. My morals are
Speaker 5: the same morals I was born with. I have very
Speaker 5: good morals. But I just see these kids watching it,
Speaker 5: and I stopped doing that. So when you say, like
Speaker 5: you talk about me in prison, I done my time,
Speaker 5: and I done my time. Well, nobody, uh, nobody screwed
Speaker 5: with me. You know I won't let even at my
Speaker 5: age now, anybody uh screw with Lauren. You know, like
Speaker 5: I set after this last bit that I did, nobody
Speaker 5: screwed with this Hell's Angel. But uh, you know, being
Speaker 5: like after saying that, I don't like kids looking at
Speaker 5: life behind bars as a romantic or you know, any romanticism,
Speaker 5: because it's not you know, like I've I don't I've
Speaker 5: met a lot of tough people in jail and they've
Speaker 5: cried over their children. Yeah, okay, so I don't know
Speaker 5: whether that answers your question, DN, but you know that's uh,
Speaker 5: I wish people from this book. People say, well, what's
Speaker 5: what's the thing behind this book? Well, that's one of them.
Speaker 5: That's one of them. You know. Don't think that you're
Speaker 5: that tough, you're going to go to prison and everything's
Speaker 5: going to be all right, because you know, I've watched
Speaker 5: people being shanked. I've I've actually stab and shot more
Speaker 5: people that have stabbed and shot me. You know. But
Speaker 5: but don't think it's that easy, and don't think it's
Speaker 5: the life. It's not the life.
Speaker 7: Well that's why it's only one percent of the people
Speaker 7: can gain membership in a club. And like you say
Speaker 7: in the book, you talk about in the book you
Speaker 7: and Peter that there's a lot of guys that don't
Speaker 7: last too long in the club. So the turnovers, Ah, Yeah,
Speaker 7: there's turns frequently.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, and there are always hus been there, always
Speaker 5: has been done. But it's changed, like the biker life
Speaker 5: has changed through the years, whether like you can look
Speaker 5: at it like it's changed to the good or it's
Speaker 5: changed to the bed. I think it's just changed. I
Speaker 5: think just life changes, like through the years. I was
Speaker 5: nineteen sixty six, I was a member at seventeen, and
Speaker 5: you know, I left the club two years ago and
Speaker 5: the brotherhood's still the same, but it's the clubs aren't
Speaker 5: the same. Like the world changes, the world changes not,
Speaker 5: you know, and along with that club's change.
Speaker 7: Yeah. Now, Peter, you were talking about the process that
Speaker 7: you used as seven eight hours at a time or
Speaker 7: a week pardon me, seven or eight hours a week
Speaker 7: of correspondence that you would turn into, you know, information
Speaker 7: that you didn't you would then edit down and like
Speaker 7: you say, try to gather in the stories that reflect
Speaker 7: what you wanted to say overall, or what you thought
Speaker 7: you you know, what you really did want to say.
Speaker 7: Between you two, as authors of this book, tell us
Speaker 7: a little bit more about the process that you did
Speaker 7: and how long was this process? How long did it
Speaker 7: take from beginning to end? From meeting to publication. How
Speaker 7: long did this whole process take for you, Peter.
Speaker 8: We first started talking in late August of twenty eleven,
Speaker 8: and then I guess, you know, it came out in
Speaker 8: late April of this year, and it would have been
Speaker 8: edited maybe four months before that, So pretty continual process.
Speaker 8: There was a little break in the middle there of
Speaker 8: about six weeks where it was just sort of the
Speaker 8: information together, but pretty continual. When you know it's going
Speaker 8: well is when you actually are looking forward to the meetings,
Speaker 8: like I was looking forward to the meetings, and I
Speaker 8: was wanting to you know, you have all your forty
Speaker 8: questions answered, and then you think up another forty and
Speaker 8: you'd keep sort of going on, and you'd when he
Speaker 8: was I could see he was really working answering and them.
Speaker 8: Then even if I didn't quite understand and answer all
Speaker 8: the way, I could ask it again and get a
Speaker 8: little better, you know, a little better sort of take
Speaker 8: on where he was coming from. I thought that was just,
Speaker 8: you know, fantastic opportunity, really, And then when I kept
Speaker 8: checking what he was saying to make sure it was true,
Speaker 8: but I didn't, you know, it all was true, Like
Speaker 8: he he was more explaining why he did what he
Speaker 8: did and how it felt. He wasn't disputing, you know,
Speaker 8: saying no I didn't or anything like that. It was
Speaker 8: more here's why, and here's how it felt, and here's
Speaker 8: what it's like to be in this situation. So it
Speaker 8: it's it's pretty exciting really, Like in my job, you
Speaker 8: spend a huge amount of time chasing people around and
Speaker 8: trying to get them to if you say a little
Speaker 8: about something, When someone's really making an honest effort to
Speaker 8: to explain what happened, it's you know, it's the sort
Speaker 8: of thing that keeps you in the job and it
Speaker 8: makes it fun.
Speaker 7: Right, right, did you in for a year and a half,
Speaker 7: that's what you said. Did you happen to in the
Speaker 7: course of this happen to meet any of the characters
Speaker 7: in the book that Nlauran would have been introduced you to.
Speaker 8: Yeah, that was that was interesting too, you know, like
Speaker 8: that was you know, to meet people like Bernie Gwinn
Speaker 8: and then you've heard about that. That was that was neat.
Speaker 8: It was. Yeah, it's interesting when you could actually, you know,
Speaker 8: sit down and talk to someone about something and the
Speaker 8: you know, people just just sort of trying to put
Speaker 8: it in context of what it felt like. I think
Speaker 8: sometimes when you people do do books on this sort
Speaker 8: of thing, they forget that they're still writing about human beings.
Speaker 8: You know. They turn it into you know, World War
Speaker 8: two and you know, try and make it all tactical
Speaker 8: this and money that, and they forget that that people
Speaker 8: are actually involved. You know that, you know, a lot
Speaker 8: of these are human stories. You know, there's a there's
Speaker 8: a human reason why people do things. And then and
Speaker 8: then there's things you wonder, like, you know, coping in prison,
Speaker 8: how do you keep your head together? And it it's
Speaker 8: great when someone actually tries to, you know, makes a real,
Speaker 8: sincere effort to explain it to you that you know,
Speaker 8: you don't get that chance every day. And then also
Speaker 8: a lot of people, even if they try it, they're
Speaker 8: not bright enough to tell their stories and learns. The
Speaker 8: bright guy so he could experience, but he could think
Speaker 8: of things from a lot of different angles, and he
Speaker 8: could he could say, yeah, this is absurd, but this
Speaker 8: is what I did. And he wouldn't he wouldn't try
Speaker 8: and you know, sugarcoat it. A lot of a lot
Speaker 8: of books on this sort of stuff that's someone saying
Speaker 8: you know, the devil made me do it. You know,
Speaker 8: I didn't really mean to do it. All the bad
Speaker 8: people made me do it, and learn would just say yeah,
Speaker 8: I did it, you know, and there's something we're honest
Speaker 8: about that. Then people keep doing something, getting caught crying
Speaker 8: and then pretending that there's a bunch of bad apples
Speaker 8: that dragged them down.
Speaker 7: This is a question I'll ask both of you, and
Speaker 7: you could answer it first, Peter, because I think you
Speaker 7: might have a different answer and obviously a different perspective.
Speaker 7: You've covered a lot of times in the newspaper in Toronto,
Speaker 7: Toronto Star, and whether it's a Toronto Star or the
Speaker 7: National Post, or it's Winnipeg Free Press, or it's anywhere
Speaker 7: in Canada. It's not like the Satan's Choice and How's
Speaker 7: angels have gotten an easy ride in print at trials
Speaker 7: and their depiction, the newspaper's depiction of these motorcycle clubs.
Speaker 7: Have you I've saw you on Canada Am and certainly
Speaker 7: that was there was no flack on there. Have you
Speaker 7: gotten any resistance at all given that kind of coverage
Speaker 7: historically in Canada for this book, and especially the tone of.
Speaker 8: This book, I think a lot of people sort of
Speaker 8: in all sides of it like it, and a lot
Speaker 8: of people on all sides of it really don't like it.
Speaker 8: I mean, I know that. I mean I'm friends with
Speaker 8: Michelle Always, the reporter who was shot in Quebec, so
Speaker 8: I know, I know, bad things happen, like I'm not
Speaker 8: I'm not naive, But then you know it it was
Speaker 8: a small group of people that did that. It wasn't
Speaker 8: you know, every every Hell's angel, and so I think
Speaker 8: it's it's kind of odd, but you know, in a way,
Speaker 8: we're working away on the book and you have to
Speaker 8: blank out what other people are going to think because
Speaker 8: you're trying to make that book almost its own. It
Speaker 8: sounds kind of corny but like a living thing, and
Speaker 8: you don't if people don't like it, they don't like it.
Speaker 8: But you know, I think we were here. It's it's
Speaker 8: a real honest effort, and I think it's an extremely
Speaker 8: honest book. And I don't think we tried to make
Speaker 8: it this way or that way, just tried to make it,
Speaker 8: you know, honest and entertaining. And you know, if you
Speaker 8: don't like it, you know, go read another book. It's
Speaker 8: heard of my.
Speaker 7: Feeling, no but I'm what I'm not. I'm not saying
Speaker 7: you like I'm not you, but I'm not saying that
Speaker 7: you thought you thought beforehand. I'm talking about resistance now
Speaker 7: that because you're doing really well, is a question. I
Speaker 7: already know that this book is doing really well as
Speaker 7: well accepted, but I was asking the question, has there
Speaker 7: been any resistance? Has there been any surprises? Has there
Speaker 7: been in terms of you know this this Like I say,
Speaker 7: I'm surprised that there would be no resistance, but it
Speaker 7: has there been any resistance at all?
Speaker 8: Some people were even afraid to go to the book
Speaker 8: launch party. You know, I was telling jokes about no colors,
Speaker 8: and then some people chickened out on going to the party,
Speaker 8: like they thought it was going to be Saint Valentine's
Speaker 8: Day massacre or something. So, you know, like it's sort
Speaker 8: of funny, but the there you interesting just how people
Speaker 8: read it. Like one thing that really hit me was
Speaker 8: how many women liked it. I usually when you're working
Speaker 8: on a book like this, you assume it's mostly for
Speaker 8: you know, for men, and this one. A huge amount
Speaker 8: of the contact I've had on the internet or people
Speaker 8: who've been approached me about it and wanting to talk
Speaker 8: about it. Are a woman and it you know that
Speaker 8: that's kind of I found that fascinating. I think smarter
Speaker 8: police like it because they like to get into the
Speaker 8: heads of people. They deal with people who want everything
Speaker 8: black and white. You know, then they won't like it.
Speaker 8: I mean, one thing, I think when people talk about
Speaker 8: drug trafficking, I think anyone who buys the drug is
Speaker 8: part of the crime, not just a person selling it.
Speaker 8: And so it's you know, there's enough blame for everybody there.
Speaker 8: So you know a lot of things I don't really
Speaker 8: see is this side or that side. And then sometimes
Speaker 8: people get upset with you when you they want the
Speaker 8: world nice and simple, you know, good guys and bad guys,
Speaker 8: and we're victims and they're making it do things and
Speaker 8: I just don't see the world that way.
Speaker 7: Well, you know that's good. Obviously you wouldn't be able
Speaker 7: to write this book if you did. But what I'm
Speaker 7: saying is like Canadian media is not very open minded
Speaker 7: about that. When I say, when you're in a trial
Speaker 7: and you're supposed to be you know, innocent, they'll proven guilty,
Speaker 7: and you've got these labels and depictions and and then
Speaker 7: charges like a criminal organization. I mean, you know, so
Speaker 7: people you know just may tend to, you know, think
Speaker 7: on highly of motorcycle clubs. That's all, you know what
Speaker 7: I'm saying.
Speaker 8: So yet I am a lot of people will write about
Speaker 8: them without internalism. You're supposed to try and approach both sides.
Speaker 8: You know, why did you do this or what did
Speaker 8: you think? Ken Sure, it seems like one area where
Speaker 8: you don't really have to approach both sides. You can
Speaker 8: just you know, make up what you want or put
Speaker 8: in what you want, you know, and I can. I mean,
Speaker 8: some pretty terrible things happened in Quebec, and I can
Speaker 8: understand that. You know that people are her upset, you know,
Speaker 8: and that's you know that that makes sense.
Speaker 5: But jump in there more than upset, and I disagree
Speaker 5: with any of that. I disagree with that when what's
Speaker 5: the name for it, when you shoot somebody from the
Speaker 5: outside of a house for your buys or whatever, drive bys?
Speaker 5: I disagree with all that. But I have to jump
Speaker 5: in there and say say what the Peter said about? Oh,
Speaker 5: what the hell was that you guys were just talking about?
Speaker 5: When the criminal org? Jeez, I can't remember what it
Speaker 5: was now. I just sorry, I lost my thoughts.
Speaker 7: Well, let me ask you a question while you gather
Speaker 7: your thoughts, Peter, thank you. Has been the impression of
Speaker 7: your friends and especially former club members and existing club
Speaker 7: members to this book? So far, it's been released, like
Speaker 7: you say, in April, so a little ways away.
Speaker 5: So there is club members that I've got feedback from
Speaker 5: that that don't like the book because they don't like
Speaker 5: what I say about this and that. But I haven't
Speaker 5: really in my opinion, I haven't really said anything bad
Speaker 5: about any of them. I wouldn't have been around for
Speaker 5: forty six years if I didn't love the life that
Speaker 5: I was leading. And I actually loved the life that
Speaker 5: I was leading. My house not that good now and
Speaker 5: that's why I left the club. And if that, if
Speaker 5: that wasn't so, I would have still been with the club.
Speaker 7: But you know, what does Bertie, what does Bernie Gwindon
Speaker 7: think about this book?
Speaker 5: Bernie Gwynn is my longest biker friend ever, and he
Speaker 5: loves it. He loves the idea that along him and
Speaker 5: along with the other club members that are still in
Speaker 5: the club, loved the idea that I've written a true
Speaker 5: account like this. You know, nobody contests the fact that
Speaker 5: there's been criminals in the club. I was one of
Speaker 5: them then, and I was a pretty strong character when
Speaker 5: it comes to backing things up. I was very very
Speaker 5: violent all my life. I don't apologize for that because
Speaker 5: that's just the way I was. And I fit right
Speaker 5: into the Satan's Choice when I started with Satan's Choice.
Speaker 5: I'm an extremist. I'm extremely loyal, and that's me. But
Speaker 5: most of the guys that I've met through the years,
Speaker 5: contrary to popular or believe, are not criminals. And they
Speaker 5: may be tough individuals, like you know, most of the
Speaker 5: most of the one percent clubs are tough guys. They're tough guys.
Speaker 5: They back up what they what they say, but they're
Speaker 5: not criminals. Like a criminal organization is laughable to Satan's
Speaker 5: Choice in Hell's Angels, it's laughable. We we have to
Speaker 5: laugh at it. You know, they're the government has uh
Speaker 5: depicted them guys as criminals because or a criminal organization.
Speaker 5: Because there's criminals in there, very tough guys. There's been deaths,
Speaker 5: there's been uh, you know, violence, but that's uh, that's
Speaker 5: sticking up for what you believe in, you know, frontier
Speaker 5: justice or whatever you want to call it.
Speaker 7: But you know the thing is that a lot of
Speaker 7: people agree with you. I think they say, hey, listen,
Speaker 7: if you if you're not dealing with them, that you're
Speaker 7: not involved with drugs or big deal, maybe drugs should
Speaker 7: be legal anyway, it's prohibition. So a lot of people
Speaker 7: can get around that. There's you know, I've seen it
Speaker 7: personally that people don't have this disrespect. Nobody's spitting on
Speaker 7: any bikers as they ride buying their motorcycles or you know,
Speaker 7: shunning them. So despite some people might have a certain
Speaker 7: attitude towards them, but it certainly kind of keep it quiet.
Speaker 7: But what I'm saying is that some people think it
Speaker 7: is some people, because.
Speaker 5: Based on straight people more criminal than the bikers that
Speaker 5: I've seen. So it's made guys like me proud of
Speaker 5: who we are. I don't try to be more of
Speaker 5: a criminal during my criminal life. I've not tried to
Speaker 5: be more criminal because of what I've seen, but it
Speaker 5: made me so proud of who I am. Seeing criminal
Speaker 5: behavior within the police force and I'll argue with anybody,
Speaker 5: you know, I will argue with anybody when it comes
Speaker 5: to that topic. Well, let me ask you this one
Speaker 5: tough question, and that doesn't make me better or it
Speaker 5: doesn't make them better, the police force or you know,
Speaker 5: so so called straight people. But I've seen so much criminal,
Speaker 5: criminal h stuff from the police forces that I've been
Speaker 5: involved with and in a any more or any less
Speaker 5: than than bikers. So you know, I'm happy being who
Speaker 5: I am.
Speaker 7: The thing is what people really are fascinated about, and
Speaker 7: that's how we get to a book, and people are
Speaker 7: fascinated with the book, and in a program like this
Speaker 7: called true murder, is that some people look at the
Speaker 7: murders of whether it's not so much innocence just other well, yes,
Speaker 7: in a period and so you know, especially there.
Speaker 5: Has been innocence killed during h you know, during bikerdom
Speaker 5: or or even police forces, there's been innocence killed. And
Speaker 5: me myself, me myself, but anyways myself, I disagree with
Speaker 5: any of that. You know, if there's been bombings or
Speaker 5: or shootings, drive by shootings, and innocence have been killed,
Speaker 5: I disagree with that. You have to get with me
Speaker 5: and sit down for a couple of hours to understand
Speaker 5: what I mean. But you know, I I don't run
Speaker 5: down anybody. I'm not trying to say I'm better than
Speaker 5: anybody because I've done a lot of things in my life.
Speaker 5: I've heard a lot of people and you know, so
Speaker 5: be it. But I just disagree with all that shit.
Speaker 5: Can I say?
Speaker 7: Shit?
Speaker 5: Sure?
Speaker 7: All right now tell us Peter, and then I'll get
Speaker 7: you to also answer this question too. What exactly did
Speaker 7: you want to be able to convey to an audience
Speaker 7: with this book? What is all included in this it's
Speaker 7: I know, we talked about the history of the origins
Speaker 7: of Satan's Choice and Bernie Gwyndon and Johnny Sombrero, very
Speaker 7: amazing stuff. And then of course later on in the
Speaker 7: book is the Hell's Angels and the Satan's Choice again
Speaker 7: like I mentioned, and being absorbed. All of that is
Speaker 7: covered in there. Overall with the book not a moral message,
Speaker 7: but what did you want to because there's no real
Speaker 7: moral message? What did you really want to convey that
Speaker 7: you didn't find in any other book and really wanted
Speaker 7: to convey in this book, Peter? What did you really
Speaker 7: want it?
Speaker 8: What it wanted was an honest from the inside book
Speaker 8: about what does it feel like? I mean, one of
Speaker 8: my favorite songs is like a Rolling Stone by Bob
Speaker 8: Dylan where he sings you know, how does it feel?
Speaker 8: And a lot of things. You know, you'll know what happened,
Speaker 8: but you still don't really know what it's about. And
Speaker 8: you want to know he can see all the action,
Speaker 8: but you don't really understand it. And so I wanted
Speaker 8: something that, you know, would tell me how it felt.
Speaker 8: You know, what does it feel like when you do this?
Speaker 8: What does it feel like when you're locked up? What
Speaker 8: does it feel like when you know extreme things are happening?
Speaker 8: Just sort of what are what are the emotions? And
Speaker 8: you know, what pushes someone to to to do certain things?
Speaker 8: And so I wanted the factual stuff. You know, obviously
Speaker 8: we had to have it in there, but I didn't
Speaker 8: want a dry history book about you know, in nineteen
Speaker 8: sixty five, this happened in their X amount of members
Speaker 8: and that's all there is. I wanted to know why
Speaker 8: did people feel the need to come together, Why did
Speaker 8: people feel the you know, the push to do this
Speaker 8: and do that, because a lot of times we forget
Speaker 8: that these are actual human beings, Like it's not cartoon characters.
Speaker 8: A lot of times it's it's portrayed to cartoony. Really
Speaker 8: where you forget that they're they're human motivations for things.
Speaker 7: And what And Lauren, the question to you too is
Speaker 7: you have talked about your entire life from growing up,
Speaker 7: what shape you, your dad, the lifestyle, the split up
Speaker 7: of your parents' prison. But what did you want to
Speaker 7: really convey? What is the gem of What did you
Speaker 7: want to explain and convey in this book that you
Speaker 7: hadn't in some of the telling of the stories that
Speaker 7: you had. What did you really want to be able
Speaker 7: to say with this book through this book?
Speaker 5: Oh, I'm glad you asked that. Yes, the book is
Speaker 5: from the start was make sure you know what you
Speaker 5: want in life. And there's a lot of people that
Speaker 5: want to be like me. They've seen motorcycles go by,
Speaker 5: you know, a hundred motorcycles go by at once, and
Speaker 5: it's come und all of that, and I wanted people
Speaker 5: in this type of life, not just biker but this
Speaker 5: type of it's a rough life. Be sure what you want.
Speaker 5: You know, in any life, just be sure what you
Speaker 5: want and if you get into this. It fit for me.
Speaker 5: It really did fit for me because I was comfortable
Speaker 5: all the time I was riding. And I still write.
Speaker 5: I still write every day. I went for right today
Speaker 5: for an hour or so, and I just that's my life.
Speaker 5: I love doing it. Rough people. They're rough people, rough
Speaker 5: around the edges, and I enjoy riding with them. I
Speaker 5: enjoy being with them because they actually are the softest
Speaker 5: people in the world. These these bike bikers are the
Speaker 5: softest people family wise and stuff like that, but they're
Speaker 5: the toughest people in the world. Make sure what you
Speaker 5: want because you're going to go to jail, You're probably
Speaker 5: gonna get divorcess and and all of that. Like you're
Speaker 5: just that's probably and you're probably you might get shot,
Speaker 5: you might get stabbed. But Jesus, enjoy it while you're
Speaker 5: doing it. You know, don't look, don't look for trouble.
Speaker 5: But if trouble comes to me, I'm there. I'm there.
Speaker 5: They Get it on is the word for me. You know.
Speaker 5: I use that to my friends and my enemies. Get
Speaker 5: it to something. Non you know, I won't swear.
Speaker 7: Okay, Dan, Yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 5: Anyways, you know, I say, get it the hell on.
Speaker 5: But if it's not your life, that's what I'm That's
Speaker 5: what I'm trying to get it across in this book.
Speaker 5: And I wanted full characters, which Peter has done. Like,
Speaker 5: it's just I wanted it edited that way with full characters,
Speaker 5: not this person did that, and that's it. I wanted this.
Speaker 7: Person character.
Speaker 5: That and give a little bit of his life. And
Speaker 5: that's what I've read so many biker books that it
Speaker 5: makes me sick when I read them because it's about me,
Speaker 5: me me, me, me me, and I'm not about that.
Speaker 5: I haven't got that kind of ego to do that.
Speaker 5: I wanted like the characters that I met during the years.
Speaker 5: And that's why when people said to me, you should
Speaker 5: write a book not about me, Like I'm telling us
Speaker 5: stories about my friends that I met. Most of them
Speaker 5: are dead, you know, and I accept that most of
Speaker 5: them are dead. There you know a lot of them
Speaker 5: were my best friends and they're dead. But portray them
Speaker 5: in this book. Peter as rounded characters and he did that.
Speaker 5: He did that. I'm just grateful.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I want to I want to commend both of
Speaker 7: you guys combined, you guys have made a unique team. Again,
Speaker 7: Peter is right, because you've been more than forthcoming, more
Speaker 7: than candid. You were there, you have your privy to
Speaker 7: the information and again, like you said, a Kennedy, this
Speaker 7: is like not as unlike a lot of books. There's
Speaker 7: a couple of French Canadian guys rattling off that have
Speaker 7: written a bunch of biker books that yeah, we all
Speaker 7: know who those guys are, and then like you say,
Speaker 7: the guys that have been snitches. So so this book
Speaker 7: is completely different. You're getting a completely an overview. And
Speaker 7: Peter has brought the ability of right from the very
Speaker 7: beginning of drawing the character right into your life. And
Speaker 7: so I don't know if it explains it, but it offers. Yeah,
Speaker 7: you just you just get in for the ride, and
Speaker 7: it's an interesting ride, and it's a fascinating story. And
Speaker 7: I want to congratulate you, gentlemen on a great book. Unrepented.
Speaker 8: Thank you.
Speaker 7: And I imagine you guys are having a lot of
Speaker 7: fun doing all the interviews. I know this book has
Speaker 7: done really well on Amazon with hot new releases, and
Speaker 7: I saw you guys just recently on Canada Am so,
Speaker 7: so it must be a lot of fun for you
Speaker 7: Lauren especially.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is, and that's exciting where and just doing
Speaker 5: that thing with Peter, like doing all this with Peter
Speaker 5: and becoming friends has has meant a lot to me.
Speaker 8: It means a lot to me too, Like, it really
Speaker 8: means a lot, and I am some of the situations
Speaker 8: you get in that are sort of fun where I am.
Speaker 8: A couple of weeks ago, I met a police officer,
Speaker 8: retired police officer, who arrested learning he you know, just
Speaker 8: sort of interesting to hear the same story from from
Speaker 8: the other side, you know, from both sides of the gun.
Speaker 8: I have both guys explaining what.
Speaker 5: Them and it felt like it was both sides of
Speaker 5: the gun.
Speaker 8: Yeah. Yeah, you don't get that very often, you know,
Speaker 8: where you know, both sides are telling you and they're
Speaker 8: smiling away and doing their best to explain it. And yeah,
Speaker 8: I'm hoping that guy shows up when we're signing books
Speaker 8: on Saturday.
Speaker 5: Yeah, me too.
Speaker 7: So where's the next book signing guys?
Speaker 8: Oh in new Market on Saturday noon to noon to
Speaker 8: five chapters kind of chapters?
Speaker 7: Ye great, Oh, good luck with that. Those are always fun.
Speaker 7: I love that. I love meeting people and letting them
Speaker 7: know about a story that they might not and about
Speaker 7: but it's in good to see friends, so it's really nice.
Speaker 8: Yeah you anybody interested always welcome.
Speaker 7: Absolutely well. I want to thank you. Gentlemen for first off,
Speaker 7: a great read and secondly a really good interview. And
Speaker 7: I want to thank you very much. And uh and
Speaker 7: thanks Marn for kind of taking some of those I
Speaker 7: kind of had to post some tough questions for you, so.
Speaker 5: I know you that's okay.
Speaker 7: Anyway, I want to thank you.
Speaker 8: Good interview. Pardon me well, good interview. Hey, I enjoyed it.
Speaker 7: Oh, thank you very much, gentlemen. You have a good night.
Speaker 7: For those listening. You've been listening to Peter Edwards and
Speaker 7: Lauren Campbell and they're the authors of Unrepentant, The Strange
Speaker 7: and Sometimes Terrible Life of Lauren Campbell, Satan's Choice, and
Speaker 7: Hell's Angels. Biker. Thank you very much, gentlemen, and goodnight.
Speaker 8: Thank you night, good night.
Speaker 5: Okay, we're STI here.