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At casino dot com. 23 00:01:01.200 --> 00:01:03.759 Bill Prett have the Where I Lost the terms conditions 24 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:05.120 eighteen plus lot. 25 00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.920 You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking 26 00:01:19.040 --> 00:01:22.040 Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have 27 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:29.400 written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every 28 00:01:29.439 --> 00:01:33.120 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:33.239 --> 00:01:37.760 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.079 journalist and author Dan Zupansky. 31 00:01:51.000 --> 00:01:54.000 Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the 32 00:01:54.000 --> 00:01:57.280 program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime 33 00:01:57.400 --> 00:02:00.719 history and the authors that have written about them. In 34 00:02:00.840 --> 00:02:04.640 this explicit first hand account, a biker who spent forty 35 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:06.799 six years as a member of the Hell's Angels and 36 00:02:06.879 --> 00:02:11.120 Satan's Choice invites best selling author Peter Edwards into the 37 00:02:11.159 --> 00:02:14.879 story of life lived as We've only imagined it. A 38 00:02:14.960 --> 00:02:17.319 kid raised by his father's fist on the wrong side 39 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:20.520 of a blue collar town, Lorn Campbell grew up watching 40 00:02:20.599 --> 00:02:23.879 the local biker's ride past, making him wonder what that 41 00:02:24.080 --> 00:02:27.599 kind of freedom and power would feel like. He soon 42 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:29.960 found out. At the age of seventeen, he became the 43 00:02:30.039 --> 00:02:33.080 youngest ever member of the Saint's Choice motorcycle club and 44 00:02:33.159 --> 00:02:37.400 spent the next five decades living a life for which 45 00:02:37.400 --> 00:02:40.400 he does not ask forgiveness, only that his story finally 46 00:02:40.439 --> 00:02:43.439 be told and that his family finally understand what drove 47 00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:46.520 him to live the life the way he did, with 48 00:02:46.680 --> 00:02:49.759 moments of terror and humor, great sadness, and the simple 49 00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:54.120 pleasures of camaraderie in the open road. Unrepentant is a 50 00:02:54.159 --> 00:02:57.280 book like none other. The book with that we are 51 00:02:57.319 --> 00:03:01.639 featuring this evening is Unrepentant, the strength and sometimes terrible 52 00:03:01.680 --> 00:03:06.680 life of Lauren Campbell, Satan's Choice and Hell's Angel Biker. 53 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:12.919 Welcome to the program, and thank you to a Green 54 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:18.919 for this interview Lauren Edwards and pardon me, Peter Edwards 55 00:03:18.960 --> 00:03:21.120 and Lauren Campbell. Welcome to the program, gentlemen. 56 00:03:21.479 --> 00:03:22.840 Oh thanks for having us. 57 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:31.360 Good evening, Lauren. Yeah, good evening, Lauren Campbell. 58 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:38.319 Think with you on. 59 00:03:40.199 --> 00:03:44.759 I Well, it shows that he is very much like 60 00:03:44.840 --> 00:03:50.360 you are. Yes, I'll try it in here. Good evening, 61 00:03:50.439 --> 00:04:06.159 Lauren Campbell, Good, Lauren, h still says whole time, so 62 00:04:06.400 --> 00:04:07.639 I'm not quite sure. 63 00:04:11.680 --> 00:04:12.039 Anyway. 64 00:04:12.039 --> 00:04:15.639 Welcome to the program, Peter and this congratulations on a 65 00:04:15.759 --> 00:04:21.399 very very interesting, unusual, unique and fascinating book. Lauren seems 66 00:04:22.800 --> 00:04:24.920 Lauren seems to have hung up, So I'm hoping he's 67 00:04:24.959 --> 00:04:27.879 just gonna call right back in and get in the queue. 68 00:04:27.879 --> 00:04:29.480 There seemed to have been some problem when he. 69 00:04:29.439 --> 00:04:31.519 Was on HOLDAK and. 70 00:04:34.199 --> 00:04:36.360 Well we normally don't have a break. But he'll he'll 71 00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:41.360 call back in. I'm I'm certain of that, because I'm 72 00:04:41.399 --> 00:04:44.720 sure he'll call back anyway. I wanted to ask you. 73 00:04:44.920 --> 00:04:47.879 I guess I'll ask some questions of you that specifically 74 00:04:49.120 --> 00:04:51.759 that really don't need the input from Lauren at this point. 75 00:04:52.759 --> 00:04:55.920 What compelled you to write it? Here? We do have 76 00:04:56.040 --> 00:04:57.959 Lurin right here. We'll see, we'll get him back on here. 77 00:04:59.120 --> 00:04:59.560 Is this a. 78 00:05:01.199 --> 00:05:04.560 Yes, good evening, Lauren. Sorry about that technical error. 79 00:05:05.199 --> 00:05:07.120 I was hearing you, guys, but you couldn't hear me. 80 00:05:08.399 --> 00:05:11.519 There we go, Well everything straightened out. Welcome to the program. 81 00:05:12.199 --> 00:05:16.000 And like I had said to Peter, congratulations on a 82 00:05:17.040 --> 00:05:19.040 very pressing and fascinating book. 83 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:20.680 Thank you very much. 84 00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:25.079 Now I was going to ask Peter Edwards and then 85 00:05:25.120 --> 00:05:29.120 I'll quickly ask you, without you, guys, revealing too much 86 00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:31.360 of this incredible story. I'm going to ask the basic 87 00:05:31.439 --> 00:05:33.639 question of Peter, and I'll ask the same question of you. 88 00:05:34.639 --> 00:05:40.319 And that is what brought why Peter Edwards, Peter, Why 89 00:05:40.319 --> 00:05:42.399 did you want to do this story? What you've written 90 00:05:42.399 --> 00:05:44.800 about organized crimes the last time I had you on 91 00:05:44.839 --> 00:05:49.399 your book Bendido Massacre, But specifically, why did you want 92 00:05:49.439 --> 00:05:51.040 to write this kind of book which is a lot 93 00:05:51.079 --> 00:05:53.480 different than any book that you've written before, in any 94 00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:56.560 kind of organized crime book that I've ever read. Tell 95 00:05:56.639 --> 00:05:59.560 us why you wanted to work with Lauren Campbell and 96 00:05:59.639 --> 00:06:03.480 this book book about the beginnings of the Saint's Choice 97 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.759 and Hell's Angels here in Canada. Tell us about why 98 00:06:06.800 --> 00:06:08.160 you wanted to work on this book. 99 00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.079 Well, I think you kind of answered it, you know, like, 100 00:06:11.120 --> 00:06:13.879 it wasn't the way Learne was talking. It wasn't something 101 00:06:13.879 --> 00:06:17.319 I had heard before, and it wasn't it wasn't something 102 00:06:17.360 --> 00:06:19.160 I'd read before, and so it was neat to do 103 00:06:19.240 --> 00:06:23.680 something that was really fresh. I it took it took 104 00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:27.399 a while before I was I was convinced that you 105 00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:29.480 know that he actually would would be as good as 106 00:06:29.560 --> 00:06:31.560 I hoped he would be, And you know, he turned 107 00:06:31.600 --> 00:06:35.920 out he was actually better. So but it a lot 108 00:06:35.920 --> 00:06:38.480 of people have have good stories. Learned had a great story, 109 00:06:38.480 --> 00:06:40.040 but a lot of people are afraid of telling his 110 00:06:40.160 --> 00:06:44.160 stories and learn wasn't afraid at all. I mean he 111 00:06:44.160 --> 00:06:46.839 it was very big on doing it as as as 112 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:48.720 well as we could so that no one could say 113 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:51.439 that that we held back or you know, didn't tell 114 00:06:51.480 --> 00:06:53.399 the truth or didn't give him their money's worth. And 115 00:06:53.839 --> 00:06:56.120 when I could really sense his commitment, I got pretty 116 00:06:56.120 --> 00:06:56.839 excited about it. 117 00:06:58.160 --> 00:07:00.680 Right now, I asked the same question of you, Lauren, 118 00:07:01.000 --> 00:07:04.399 why of why on earth would you want to do 119 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:08.399 this book? What are what is the real, most important, 120 00:07:09.040 --> 00:07:12.120 biggest reason why you wanted to write this book. 121 00:07:13.079 --> 00:07:16.720 So you could read it? Then? No, the reason for 122 00:07:16.879 --> 00:07:22.040 it was I have been told through the years by 123 00:07:22.079 --> 00:07:26.079 my friends and family, you should write a book because 124 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.360 I'd be sitting there telling stories along with other people, 125 00:07:29.399 --> 00:07:33.680 and I suppose maybe some of my stories were more 126 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:38.160 interesting than anybody else's. And I'd heard that through the years. 127 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:41.319 And I was sitting with my friends here that we 128 00:07:41.360 --> 00:07:47.000 live with, Old Video and Elizabeth Sanchez, and we were 129 00:07:47.040 --> 00:07:50.000 sitting here and just the three of us having a 130 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:55.279 pop and they said, two years ago, you should write 131 00:07:55.279 --> 00:07:59.839 a book, Lauren, And I said, okay, that's you know, 132 00:08:00.199 --> 00:08:03.279 just get out of jail. I did four and a 133 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:09.439 half years in jail just prior to that, and I thought, 134 00:08:10.560 --> 00:08:14.000 what a good idea. You know, there's been other people 135 00:08:14.000 --> 00:08:17.439 tell me that, like I say, but they they just 136 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:20.839 you know, it hit me, Yes, I should write a book, 137 00:08:22.120 --> 00:08:24.959 and I did. I was looking for an author and 138 00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:30.199 in the end I couldn't have got a better author 139 00:08:30.240 --> 00:08:35.879 to write my book in Peter And anyways, that's that's 140 00:08:36.080 --> 00:08:37.679 what did. 141 00:08:37.600 --> 00:08:40.159 You come to? How did you come to meet Peter 142 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:43.240 and and know of his work and then make the 143 00:08:43.240 --> 00:08:46.679 decision to say, you know, I trust this author to 144 00:08:46.759 --> 00:08:47.519 tell the story. 145 00:08:48.559 --> 00:08:51.480 Well, it was true. A friend of ours, Mary Liscom 146 00:08:51.600 --> 00:08:58.559 is her name, she's she's a photographer and writer herself. 147 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.679 And I my wife and I had I just went 148 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.519 to my heart specialist and uh and on the way 149 00:09:05.639 --> 00:09:10.679 uh home, we we met her, just coincidentally seen her 150 00:09:11.240 --> 00:09:12.799 and we went out to dinner. 151 00:09:13.120 --> 00:09:13.360 Uh. 152 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:16.000 And we're sitting out in the patio at this place 153 00:09:16.039 --> 00:09:23.559 in in uh there, uh New Market, and I was 154 00:09:23.600 --> 00:09:25.720 looking for a writer and she said, boy, I know 155 00:09:25.799 --> 00:09:28.879 that I know the guy. I know the guy that'll 156 00:09:28.919 --> 00:09:30.960 want to write it for you. And it was Peter. 157 00:09:31.639 --> 00:09:36.960 And Peter covered our case, my last case in court. 158 00:09:38.200 --> 00:09:42.679 It was criminal organization case, big case and the actually 159 00:09:42.720 --> 00:09:47.720 the longest running trial in Canadian history, and he covered 160 00:09:47.759 --> 00:09:54.080 it coincidentally, and uh yeah, she introducess to Peter and 161 00:09:54.080 --> 00:09:58.039 and it went from there. It was it was. Peter 162 00:09:58.240 --> 00:10:02.279 was a godsend, you know, I to write my book. 163 00:10:02.320 --> 00:10:05.240 He just was the man after I got to know him, 164 00:10:05.279 --> 00:10:09.080 and I had already read the Bandido Massacre, and that 165 00:10:09.399 --> 00:10:16.279 is what made me peck Peter. Peter never with the characters, 166 00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:19.200 you know what, I wanted my book to be about 167 00:10:19.399 --> 00:10:24.320 full characters, not just this person did that, that person 168 00:10:24.360 --> 00:10:28.840 did this. I didn't want that, and Peter was the man. 169 00:10:28.919 --> 00:10:31.120 I read that and I seen how he was with 170 00:10:32.559 --> 00:10:36.799 you know, pretty bad characters, Okay, pretty rough and bad 171 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:42.879 characters involved in the bad Detle massacre. And you know, 172 00:10:43.159 --> 00:10:47.159 he never run anybody down. And I've been a biker 173 00:10:47.240 --> 00:10:49.200 all my life and I didn't want that. I didn't 174 00:10:49.200 --> 00:10:52.559 want him to like. I wanted full characters, if you 175 00:10:52.639 --> 00:10:57.039 understand what I mean, Dan, I wanted full characters. And 176 00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:02.600 we made the deal. I wasn't going to lie. I 177 00:11:02.679 --> 00:11:06.919 was going to tell the truth. And you know what, 178 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:10.840 the interesting people I've met and it worked out well 179 00:11:11.440 --> 00:11:12.320 between me and Peter. 180 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:18.720 Peter and I now, Peter what we spoke of just 181 00:11:18.799 --> 00:11:22.840 before we went on air. Was that I had asked you, 182 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.840 you know, basically I congratulated in the book, and I said, 183 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:27.679 you know, this is not really like a memoir, and 184 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:30.799 I'm glad you didn't call it that because people have 185 00:11:30.840 --> 00:11:33.840 the sort of impression what that is. In your response 186 00:11:34.080 --> 00:11:37.200 was that I have to I have a certain responsibility 187 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:39.799 as a journalist. You've got ten nonfiction books, You've got 188 00:11:40.679 --> 00:11:43.320 twenty five years under your belt as a serious journalist, 189 00:11:43.519 --> 00:11:45.639 So tell us what you have to do. Once you 190 00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:49.679 did meet Lauren, once you thought, hey, this guy's a 191 00:11:49.720 --> 00:11:51.360 real deal. But what did you still have to do 192 00:11:51.399 --> 00:11:53.799 as a journalist as your duty to make sure that 193 00:11:53.879 --> 00:11:57.720 you wrote an unflinching but yet truthful book. 194 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:01.080 We didn't really clear about our role. Like Lauren could 195 00:12:02.240 --> 00:12:06.600 could comment on anything, could double check the facts. But 196 00:12:06.600 --> 00:12:08.639 but on the other hand, i'd I'd be checking what 197 00:12:08.679 --> 00:12:13.480 he what he said, and I wanted his prison records. 198 00:12:13.799 --> 00:12:16.919 He got his prison psychiatric records so that I could check, 199 00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:19.080 you know, who I was dealing with. He also got 200 00:12:19.080 --> 00:12:23.879 his father's military records I got. I double checked what 201 00:12:23.919 --> 00:12:27.000 he was saying, because you know, someone can be likable, 202 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:28.320 but you don't know what they're going to be like 203 00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:30.519 under pressure, and there is pressure during a book. And 204 00:12:30.559 --> 00:12:35.360 so I was double checking him and and you know, 205 00:12:35.399 --> 00:12:37.200 what he was saying was turning out to be true. 206 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:41.120 And there's sometimes one I'd have a couple of things 207 00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.200 and he'd add something else that would explain it, but 208 00:12:43.240 --> 00:12:45.039 it wouldn't It wouldn't make him look any better, but 209 00:12:45.039 --> 00:12:48.080 it would make the story more understandable. He'd make it. 210 00:12:49.279 --> 00:12:52.000 He wasn't shy about going into his motivation, and he 211 00:12:52.120 --> 00:12:59.480 didn't He doesn't mind criticizing himself. He doesn't mind. You 212 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.879 don't have to sort of tiptoe around and pretend everything's great. 213 00:13:03.000 --> 00:13:05.279 You know, he'll he can be his own hrsh's critic 214 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:06.679 on a lot of things. 215 00:13:07.360 --> 00:13:11.879 Right now, we don't have all the time that we 216 00:13:12.159 --> 00:13:15.440 really would have to have to really examine this. But 217 00:13:15.559 --> 00:13:20.039 I really liked how you included your upbringing and so 218 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:23.519 of course how you were shaped, how you think your 219 00:13:23.639 --> 00:13:26.799 character was shaped. So tell us, Lauren, how it was 220 00:13:26.879 --> 00:13:29.360 growing up, where you grew up and the sort of 221 00:13:29.399 --> 00:13:33.600 life that you that shaped who you became as a teenager. 222 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:38.879 Okay, that's not a difficult question, but it's a good question. 223 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.120 I grew up ruff. I grew up in what they 224 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:45.679 call the ghetto in Oshaua, down in the South End. 225 00:13:46.720 --> 00:13:50.120 I was beaten a lot as a kid. Anything that 226 00:13:50.200 --> 00:13:52.240 I did wrong, I was beaten. I got sent to 227 00:13:52.240 --> 00:13:55.639 the training school when I was thirteen years old and 228 00:13:56.440 --> 00:14:01.799 I saw boy, Yeah, you know the story about the 229 00:14:01.879 --> 00:14:07.000 kids in the box. I thought that everybody was like 230 00:14:07.080 --> 00:14:12.240 I was. I truly thought that, you know. I became 231 00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:15.879 in the training school thirteen and fourteen years. I turned 232 00:14:15.919 --> 00:14:21.080 fourteen and went to Covert Training School, then Bounmaville Training School. 233 00:14:21.559 --> 00:14:25.919 I turned fourteen. I was the rock of the school 234 00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:29.399 when I left. That's just a name that they give 235 00:14:29.919 --> 00:14:33.279 a guide. It's the toughest guy in the joint. And 236 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:38.679 after I come out, I used to see motorcycles going 237 00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:42.039 by my front window. I lived downtown in Oshaua. That's 238 00:14:42.039 --> 00:14:45.519 where I was born and raised. Asha was a tough town. 239 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:48.360 We had a lot of Boston clubs, and I fought 240 00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:52.360 all my life. And you know, that's okay with me. 241 00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:55.759 I was told by my dad when I was eight 242 00:14:55.840 --> 00:15:00.559 years old, there ain't any fifteen year old kid in 243 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:04.600 the Boston club that could beat my son. Okay, but 244 00:15:04.720 --> 00:15:08.559 I watched the bike clubs. I would watch them go by, 245 00:15:08.840 --> 00:15:12.679 and it was just beautiful to me. That's what I wanted, 246 00:15:13.120 --> 00:15:16.519 you know, that's the life I wanted. I seen the brotherhood. 247 00:15:17.039 --> 00:15:19.879 I seen them fight, and I fought all my life 248 00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:23.320 for what they believed in, and I wanted to be long. 249 00:15:23.440 --> 00:15:26.679 I didn't have really much of a My parents loved me, 250 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.320 but I didn't have much of a family life. They 251 00:15:30.360 --> 00:15:35.480 all loved me. My dad had thirteen kids, I mean 252 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.480 my grandchildren. My grandparents had thirteen kids on my dad's side, 253 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:41.600 and I think five on my mother's side, and they 254 00:15:41.639 --> 00:15:47.080 all love But you know, it wasn't really know. I 255 00:15:47.200 --> 00:15:49.639 was beaten a lot by my dad, not my mother, 256 00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:53.720 you know, my mother wouldn't do that, but by my dad. 257 00:15:53.919 --> 00:15:57.840 And you know, I thought every kid grew up like that. 258 00:15:58.360 --> 00:16:01.559 I seen the bikers. I fought with the bikers. I 259 00:16:01.679 --> 00:16:04.799 stuck by them. I was only a teenager. And then 260 00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:09.039 when I was seventeen years old, I was I went 261 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:12.720 to the President's home and fought a guy. Did I 262 00:16:12.799 --> 00:16:16.279 Twenty years later it's in the book, and I don't 263 00:16:16.279 --> 00:16:17.840 want to reveal what's in the book. 264 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:22.240 Yeah, you know, now, tell us tell us more us, 265 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:24.000 tell us a little bit more about the event. You 266 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:25.679 say you got in a fight at the well, tell 267 00:16:25.759 --> 00:16:30.200 us about that event and then what was offered to you, which, well, 268 00:16:30.639 --> 00:16:30.960 it was a. 269 00:16:32.600 --> 00:16:35.600 Just told by that my friend that I grew up 270 00:16:37.240 --> 00:16:38.919 since I was a young kid, that I went to 271 00:16:38.960 --> 00:16:42.799 school with, was beat up by three guys. So I 272 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:45.759 was going around this dance hall and I'm looking for 273 00:16:45.799 --> 00:16:48.799 these guys and I come out the front and here's 274 00:16:48.840 --> 00:16:52.720 the president of Satan's Choice and the two other guys 275 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:55.480 that actually started Satan's Choice. And that's where it started 276 00:16:55.639 --> 00:17:00.919 in Oshawa. Talking to these guys, know, I hear one 277 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:03.240 of them say they want to fight. They want to 278 00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:07.119 go to Bernie Gwynon's house and fight because his basement 279 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:07.920 was set up. 280 00:17:07.799 --> 00:17:08.039 Like a. 281 00:17:09.920 --> 00:17:14.200 Boxing ring. So I went over to Bernie and I 282 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:16.119 didn't know him. I knew a couple of other guys 283 00:17:16.160 --> 00:17:20.599 through my family and that. But I said, listen, do 284 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:22.960 you mind if I come over because these three guys 285 00:17:23.079 --> 00:17:26.480 just beat the shit out of my friend John, And 286 00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.440 they didn't. I founked out later that they didn't, but 287 00:17:31.079 --> 00:17:37.119 nevertheless Bernie said yeah, okay. So we went down, you know, 288 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:40.799 and Bernie put gloves on with. There was two karate 289 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:46.119 guys and one Golden Gloves boxer, and Bernie was ended 290 00:17:46.200 --> 00:17:49.359 up to be North American British Commonwealth champion. You know, 291 00:17:49.519 --> 00:17:55.039 that's actually my longest running friend, Bernie Guinnon, and he 292 00:17:55.160 --> 00:17:57.559 started the choice. So he had to fight with the 293 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:02.079 first guy and knocked him out. My fight was the 294 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:06.799 second fight. The only rules were. Now keep in mind, Dan, 295 00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:10.319 I'm seventeen years old. I'm a pretty tough character, but 296 00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:14.039 I've never been involved in morzyo clubs before, so it's all, 297 00:18:15.319 --> 00:18:22.839 you know, like it's all alien to me too and romantic, 298 00:18:23.079 --> 00:18:27.160 you know. So my fight was next, and I said, 299 00:18:27.799 --> 00:18:33.160 Bernie said, you have to wear running shoes. If somebody 300 00:18:33.200 --> 00:18:35.400 goes down, if the other guy goes down, you can't 301 00:18:35.480 --> 00:18:39.279 kick him, and that's my rules. Anyways, I'm a pretty 302 00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:44.519 fair fighter. So it didn't last any more than two 303 00:18:44.599 --> 00:18:49.960 seconds and one of the Hamilton guys I got on 304 00:18:50.000 --> 00:18:52.960 the ground. I didn't kick him, but the guy who 305 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:58.200 Bertie fought thought I was going to. So he's up 306 00:18:58.200 --> 00:19:00.400 behind me and he grasped me by the shoulder, swings 307 00:19:00.440 --> 00:19:04.440 me around after I've already dropped this other guy. Bernie 308 00:19:04.519 --> 00:19:07.480 seen what was happened. He swung him around and knocked 309 00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:09.599 him out cold again, and I swear to god, I 310 00:19:09.640 --> 00:19:13.160 thought he was dead. I thought this character was dead 311 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:15.839 because his eyes there was only the whites of his 312 00:19:15.920 --> 00:19:17.960 eyes that I seen, and I thought, holy fuck, I'm 313 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.240 pardoning my language. But I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to 314 00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:25.720 sweark got holy cow the guy. The guys did and 315 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:31.519 he wasn't. Then later on that night we sat and 316 00:19:31.559 --> 00:19:34.279 had a few pops, like the guys in Hamlin and us. 317 00:19:35.759 --> 00:19:37.279 You know, I'm not a member or anything. And I 318 00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:42.200 was asked that night to join Satan's Choice. They didn't 319 00:19:42.200 --> 00:19:46.240 know I was seventeen years old. But that night because 320 00:19:46.279 --> 00:19:50.759 of that, and that's in a nutshell what happened. And 321 00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:56.079 I said yeah. And I told guys later years and 322 00:19:56.200 --> 00:20:00.720 years later. You know, they they'll strike for six months 323 00:20:00.799 --> 00:20:04.519 or with the Hell's Angels, you you hang around for 324 00:20:04.559 --> 00:20:06.599 a year and your prospect for a year. And I 325 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:09.599 would joke only say to the guys, boy, I struck 326 00:20:09.839 --> 00:20:15.039 and it was the worst three three weeks of my life. 327 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:19.160 You know. So that was or that we throw at 328 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:22.240 each other. Does that answer your question? 329 00:20:23.039 --> 00:20:27.599 Yes, it does, ye, Peter, Now you've been involved with 330 00:20:28.440 --> 00:20:30.960 these types of books and these types of cases as 331 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:36.480 as a journalist and a nonfiction author. Organized crime and 332 00:20:36.720 --> 00:20:41.000 which includes criminal organizations which well, at least tells Angels 333 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:45.680 have been deemed the criminal organization. How interesting or tell 334 00:20:45.759 --> 00:20:49.079 us about sort of the moment that you did you 335 00:20:49.519 --> 00:20:54.720 understand that through Lauren Campbell you're getting the essentially and 336 00:20:54.799 --> 00:20:57.680 I don't know how much of that history you knew essentially, 337 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:01.440 but the origins of Saying's Choice with Bernie Gwyna, did 338 00:21:01.480 --> 00:21:03.880 you just as you just mentioned, and then the Hell's 339 00:21:03.920 --> 00:21:09.319 Angels absorbing clubs like the Satan's Choice later on in 340 00:21:09.359 --> 00:21:13.319 the history of outlaw biker clubs in Canada. Tell us 341 00:21:13.319 --> 00:21:19.119 about what that meant to you in terms of valuable information, 342 00:21:19.440 --> 00:21:23.440 interesting information and information you may not have known before 343 00:21:23.559 --> 00:21:26.519 and of course valuable as you are that type of 344 00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:29.319 journalist writing about these types of cases. 345 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.359 It showed you what across section there was I mean 346 00:21:32.400 --> 00:21:36.559 not not everything is a criminal organization. And one thing 347 00:21:36.559 --> 00:21:38.160 with Lauren it was kind of funny, was it. He 348 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:42.119 said at one point that Satan's Choice was a lot 349 00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:44.200 of it was crime, but it wasn't really organized crime, 350 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.799 like he kind of disputed the word organized, and so 351 00:21:49.799 --> 00:21:52.200 a lot of it is, you know, just sort of 352 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:56.480 the personalities. I think. I think that sometimes you're trying 353 00:21:56.519 --> 00:21:58.200 to figure out something from the outside and you don't 354 00:21:58.240 --> 00:22:00.440 have a clue, and then when when someone the explains 355 00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:02.759 personalities to you, it makes it makes sense. I think 356 00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:07.079 sometimes people look at this stuff like a James Bond movie, 357 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:09.920 where it's, you know, a big master plan to take 358 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.519 over the world, and then when you hear what's going on, 359 00:22:12.640 --> 00:22:16.160 it's a lot more, a lot more human, like, a 360 00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:20.240 lot more you can understand it, you know, not from 361 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:22.039 a business point of view as much as from a 362 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:24.200 you know, human point of view why people are doing things. 363 00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:28.319 I mean, one guy in the book got got strung 364 00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:30.200 up and he didn't die, but he got strung up 365 00:22:30.279 --> 00:22:34.960 and it was for not bringing a beer, which which 366 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.039 you know he is embarrassing and it undercuts people, and 367 00:22:38.200 --> 00:22:40.440 it all makes sense when you get into the mindset 368 00:22:40.440 --> 00:22:42.559 of people at the party. But from the outside it 369 00:22:42.839 --> 00:22:45.519 looks like it looks pretty insane to string a guy 370 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.240 up over over a drink. But when you think of 371 00:22:48.240 --> 00:22:50.960 how the guy was embarrassing them publicly and the consequences 372 00:22:51.000 --> 00:22:54.400 of being embarrassed, then you can start getting into, you know, 373 00:22:54.480 --> 00:22:57.519 understanding why this happened. That's the sort of stuff you 374 00:22:57.559 --> 00:22:59.400 can only get when you're talking to someone who's actually 375 00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.200 on the inside. On the outside, you you know, you 376 00:23:02.279 --> 00:23:03.799 might see the guy dangling from the tree, but you 377 00:23:03.839 --> 00:23:07.079 didn't have a clue why you got up there, right. 378 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:09.279 And you know it's interesting too, is that there's not 379 00:23:09.400 --> 00:23:12.440 that much documentation. I know, I've seen a couple of 380 00:23:12.480 --> 00:23:16.519 documentaries about, you know, the origins of Satan's Choice and 381 00:23:16.680 --> 00:23:19.920 was interesting with that. You included in your book about 382 00:23:19.960 --> 00:23:25.559 a film director named Shabib information. I didn't know exactly 383 00:23:25.559 --> 00:23:31.359 who this guy was. Tell us about Bernie Gwindon, How 384 00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:33.599 did he become the leader of the Saints Choice. Tell 385 00:23:33.680 --> 00:23:35.559 us a little bit about the history of that lorn, 386 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.039 about the other other biker clubs that he drew from, 387 00:23:40.440 --> 00:23:44.720 and his and the rivalry with Johnny Sombrero. Tell Us 388 00:23:45.640 --> 00:23:48.200 tell us about the origins of Satan's Choice and Bernie 389 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:49.799 Gwindon and how that all began. 390 00:23:51.799 --> 00:23:55.079 Yes, it's to me, it's interesting, and I hope to 391 00:23:55.319 --> 00:24:00.880 other people it would be just as interesting. Bernie was 392 00:24:00.880 --> 00:24:06.519 was a Goldenhawk writer. The Black Diamond Riders were invited 393 00:24:06.559 --> 00:24:10.160 to Pebblestone Park I think it was called, just outside 394 00:24:10.160 --> 00:24:17.000 of Oshaua and on beknownst to the Goldenhawks, the Black 395 00:24:17.079 --> 00:24:22.319 Diamond Riders, they were cutting down trees and tree stumps 396 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:28.759 for weapons and beat the snot out of the Goldenhawks, 397 00:24:28.759 --> 00:24:32.400 and you know, the Goldenhawks weren't ready for it. So 398 00:24:34.680 --> 00:24:39.720 after that, Bernie Gwynon and Redshawk and carmen' neil, there 399 00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:45.079 was three members started the Phantom Riders. They left the Goldenhawks. 400 00:24:45.720 --> 00:24:47.839 Bernie was one of the guys that stood up to 401 00:24:47.920 --> 00:24:51.079