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Once again, remember 56 00:03:11.680 --> 00:03:16.240 to go to this unique place ZipRecruiter dot com slash 57 00:03:16.879 --> 00:03:23.199 murder m u r der, ZipRecruiter, The Smartest Way to Hire. 58 00:03:23.879 --> 00:03:27.439 Denville in the nineteen fifties was an idyllic place to live, 59 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.479 yet a dark chapter in the era's history has remained uncovered. 60 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:35.919 During the summer of nineteen fifty three, a wealthy traveler 61 00:03:35.960 --> 00:03:38.639 with a secret rap sheet as a convicted sex offender, 62 00:03:39.159 --> 00:03:43.240 arrived in town to continue his misdeeds. A group of 63 00:03:43.319 --> 00:03:47.680 thirteen local boys ranging in age from fourteen to twenty two, 64 00:03:47.840 --> 00:03:50.360 took it upon themselves to teach the Mano Lesson and 65 00:03:50.439 --> 00:03:53.759 drive him out of the town. What resulted was his 66 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:57.319 brutal death and the largest number of people ever indicted 67 00:03:57.319 --> 00:04:00.960 for murder in the nation at the time. The harrowing 68 00:04:01.039 --> 00:04:04.199 trial and its aftermath revealed the town forced to grapple 69 00:04:04.240 --> 00:04:07.240 with how to protect its youth and come to terms 70 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:12.159 with the gruesome incident. Local historian Peter z a Blocki 71 00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:15.159 covers the crime and a small town's path to redemption. 72 00:04:16.279 --> 00:04:18.839 The book that we're featuring this evening is the Denville 73 00:04:18.839 --> 00:04:23.199 Thirteen Murder, Redemption and Forgiveness in Small Town, New Jersey, 74 00:04:23.600 --> 00:04:27.160 with my special guest, historian and author Peters A. BLOCKI. 75 00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:29.439 Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for 76 00:04:29.480 --> 00:04:33.319 this interview. Peter's a Blockie, Hi. 77 00:04:33.199 --> 00:04:35.959 How are you? Thank you for having me, Thank. 78 00:04:35.759 --> 00:04:40.439 You so much. Let's start off right away with this 79 00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.839 incredible book. When did you first discover the story of 80 00:04:44.879 --> 00:04:47.240 the Denville Thirteen? Tell us how this came about? 81 00:04:47.319 --> 00:04:50.439 So I called it the accidental Book. I actually set 82 00:04:50.480 --> 00:04:54.759 out to write a book and collect stories of local 83 00:04:55.000 --> 00:04:58.319 population of my town of Denville, where I serve on 84 00:04:58.360 --> 00:05:00.759 the board of DN Historical Society. I'm trying to interview 85 00:05:00.759 --> 00:05:03.240 a lot of elderly faults from World War two times 86 00:05:03.839 --> 00:05:06.439 about essentially their experiences in World War Two, and as 87 00:05:06.439 --> 00:05:09.879 I started meeting with individuals that were in their eighties nineties, 88 00:05:10.639 --> 00:05:13.199 oddly enough, DEVI was thirteen to murder them if there 89 00:05:13.279 --> 00:05:14.759 no one's ever heard of it. I mean to the 90 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:18.399 extent that it was buried so much that I have 91 00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:20.680 people coming out with me since the book's publication. They're like, 92 00:05:20.720 --> 00:05:23.199 I've lived through my whole life, how did I not know? However, 93 00:05:23.360 --> 00:05:27.360 as I was interviewing these elderly faults, they basically at 94 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:29.680 the end of each interview, a lot of them were like, hey, 95 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:32.600 you know, there was this murder that happened in nineteen fifties, 96 00:05:32.600 --> 00:05:34.279 but no one talks about it. And at first I 97 00:05:34.360 --> 00:05:36.759 kind of dismissed it, and I was like, aheah, that's great, 98 00:05:36.759 --> 00:05:40.000 but let's talk about, you know, rationing in nineteen forty three. 99 00:05:40.199 --> 00:05:42.720 But then it started to come up more and more 100 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:46.839 and more, to the extent that ironically, and like weirdly enough, 101 00:05:47.319 --> 00:05:50.000 a few individuals actually asked me as I was recording 102 00:05:50.000 --> 00:05:52.040 this interviews, you know it is your camera off? And 103 00:05:52.079 --> 00:05:54.040 I'm like, yeah, it's off. We're done now. Thank you 104 00:05:54.079 --> 00:05:57.319 for the interviews, and you know, at that point they 105 00:05:57.319 --> 00:06:00.000 were like, well, you know, there's this murder, and I'm like, okay, 106 00:06:00.240 --> 00:06:03.439 now I'm curious enough. And that is really how it started. 107 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:08.399 And the name Denvil thirteen was thrown around by by 108 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:10.600 these individuals, you know, by these eighty nine year old 109 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:12.360 ladies and gentlemen. They were like, you know, it was 110 00:06:12.480 --> 00:06:15.519 done on thirteen. But when I googled it, there was nothing. 111 00:06:15.600 --> 00:06:17.319 You know, I thought, you know, twenty first century, if. 112 00:06:17.199 --> 00:06:19.879 You google something, if it doesn't exist on Google, it doesn't. 113 00:06:19.639 --> 00:06:25.120 Exist since my book's publication. Now, like one article from 114 00:06:25.120 --> 00:06:28.600 New York Times pops up because I uncovered a lot 115 00:06:28.639 --> 00:06:30.680 of those those things. There's some key words they could 116 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:32.600 probably search for now, and there's a little bit more 117 00:06:32.600 --> 00:06:37.680 information on the weblin this, but still nowhere near as 118 00:06:37.800 --> 00:06:40.240 much as for anything else really, because when I started 119 00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.279 looking into this, I couldn't find it. I mean, this 120 00:06:42.519 --> 00:06:44.720 was I'm like, where does one look for this? And 121 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:47.720 I started with Murdering Denvil nineteen fifty fifty one, fifty two. 122 00:06:47.720 --> 00:06:51.199 I went through every year and nothing popped up. And 123 00:06:51.240 --> 00:06:52.639 that's kind of when I sort of really dig in 124 00:06:52.639 --> 00:06:54.879 into the newspaper. So I know Denvill had a newspaper 125 00:06:54.920 --> 00:06:57.120 of its own. It was called a Denvil Herald and 126 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:01.040 it published over twenty years. So the library has a 127 00:07:01.120 --> 00:07:04.439 PDF file of the entire twenty year run. So that 128 00:07:04.560 --> 00:07:07.240 was my first starting point, and I went in and 129 00:07:07.279 --> 00:07:09.399 a PDFI was scan in such a bad way that, 130 00:07:09.800 --> 00:07:12.279 you know, the search function, the control f function, it 131 00:07:12.319 --> 00:07:15.720 doesn't really work well. So I'm literally scanning through every 132 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:20.879 possible issue in nineteen fifties, and oddly enough, I realized 133 00:07:20.920 --> 00:07:24.399 that the entire decade is full, but it's missing three 134 00:07:24.480 --> 00:07:29.639 pages of the first September issue September third of nineteen 135 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:32.319 fifty three. And I found out really odd that we 136 00:07:32.360 --> 00:07:37.560 would have every single issue but missing three pages. You know, 137 00:07:37.600 --> 00:07:39.439 the first two pages are gone. So that kind of 138 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:42.639 got me thinking of like, all right, September ish, nineteen 139 00:07:42.680 --> 00:07:46.399 fifty three, and that became my starting point. Then I 140 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:50.120 started looking at other newspapers in the area, all the 141 00:07:50.199 --> 00:07:52.160 towns around it. Basically it was like four different towns 142 00:07:52.160 --> 00:07:55.279 around that had local newspapers in the fifties, and I 143 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:59.959 was looking for September issues. No mention of this, however, 144 00:08:00.519 --> 00:08:02.800 I spoke to a member of the historical study an 145 00:08:02.800 --> 00:08:05.480 older member of historical society, and he said, you know, 146 00:08:05.519 --> 00:08:08.920 there's this folder that's somewhere upstairs. And one of these 147 00:08:09.279 --> 00:08:12.639 historians in the town of Denville nineteen seventies collected this 148 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:15.000 scrapbook of some stuff, and I think there's something in 149 00:08:15.000 --> 00:08:16.920 there about this murder. But you know, when no one 150 00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:19.360 ever talked about it, it's kind of hidden somewhere in 151 00:08:19.399 --> 00:08:21.519 the attic. So I went in the attic and I 152 00:08:21.519 --> 00:08:25.959 sort of looking for that folder. Meanwhile, I also realized 153 00:08:25.959 --> 00:08:29.680 that in our historical society in town, we have the 154 00:08:29.759 --> 00:08:35.679 microfilm of every Denvil Herald that was photographed in nineteen 155 00:08:35.720 --> 00:08:38.559 seventies as well. So I powered up the microfilm machine 156 00:08:38.559 --> 00:08:40.960 and I went through it all. And this time around, 157 00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:43.399 not only was just the three pages missing of that 158 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.200 first September issue, but that entire September issue was never 159 00:08:46.279 --> 00:08:49.919 photographed in nineteen seventies. So I'm like, all right, someone 160 00:08:50.000 --> 00:08:52.840 is clearly deliberately trying to hide this event. I mean, 161 00:08:52.879 --> 00:08:54.480 while I still don't really know what the events about, 162 00:08:54.519 --> 00:08:56.360 I just know it was Denvill thirteen. I assumed there 163 00:08:56.440 --> 00:09:01.000 was thirteen people not much past that. Then we went 164 00:09:01.039 --> 00:09:04.039 into these crates. We have these crates at the museum 165 00:09:04.120 --> 00:09:08.960 that are actually someone meticulously collected every Denvil Herald newspaper 166 00:09:08.960 --> 00:09:11.799 and put him in crates based on the year. So 167 00:09:11.840 --> 00:09:13.440 I'm like, you know what this is. It like, I'm 168 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:15.759 going to have the real hard copy. And I started 169 00:09:15.799 --> 00:09:17.639 looking through it, right, and I get to it at 170 00:09:17.639 --> 00:09:20.080 fifty three crate. You know, I'm like going through this 171 00:09:20.159 --> 00:09:22.440 the Kroll space and I pull it all out, and 172 00:09:23.000 --> 00:09:25.759 then I'm in August. I'm excited in boom No first 173 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:29.200 September issue. I'm like, this is crazy. So I started 174 00:09:29.159 --> 00:09:32.480 doing research and realized that Denvil published one thousand copies 175 00:09:32.679 --> 00:09:35.600 of each of their issue therefore to this day, by 176 00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:37.960 the way, I have not found that copy of that issue. 177 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.840 It's gone. So someone somewhere hit a thousand copies of 178 00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:45.519 this issue. Meanwhile, I did finally find this folder, the 179 00:09:45.639 --> 00:09:49.679 scrapbook by this historian in the town in nineteen seventies 180 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:51.399 that kind of did this on his own, and I 181 00:09:51.480 --> 00:09:55.759 found a couple clippings, and the clippings I found I 182 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:59.759 finally figured it out based on eclippings. You know, this 183 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.879 deals with teenagers, This deals with a really young population 184 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:06.480 of kids, and this is the largest indictment for a 185 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.000 single murder in all of American history. And I'm like, whoa, 186 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.000 this is. This is big. But then I still had 187 00:10:12.039 --> 00:10:15.320 no idea what newspapers those clippings came from, because the 188 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:16.879 way the historian did it, he kind of just cut 189 00:10:16.960 --> 00:10:19.240 him out and you know, Scotch taped them. This is 190 00:10:19.279 --> 00:10:23.159 like nineteen seventy, you know. So I went back to 191 00:10:23.200 --> 00:10:26.679 the drawing board. I wound up contacting on the Moors 192 00:10:26.799 --> 00:10:31.559 County Historical Society and the Morris County Museum. So Morristown 193 00:10:31.720 --> 00:10:34.399 is the bigger city. It's kind of like a quasi 194 00:10:34.840 --> 00:10:37.759 I would say, capital of my county where Denvill is located, right, 195 00:10:38.399 --> 00:10:42.039 And they had They're like, well, we have the Daily Record, 196 00:10:42.039 --> 00:10:44.200 which has been around, you know, for like one hundred years, 197 00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:46.679 and we have all the hard copies. It's not digitized, 198 00:10:46.679 --> 00:10:49.000 so you would have to come see it. But it's COVID, 199 00:10:49.039 --> 00:10:52.360 and you know, COVID had just started. I'm like, all right, right, 200 00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:55.039 So an nice gentleman was like, you know what, I 201 00:10:55.080 --> 00:10:57.080 got nothing to do here anyway, it's COVID. No one's 202 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.159 coming in. What do you need? I'll scan it for you. 203 00:10:59.519 --> 00:11:01.759 So I'm like, well, I just need a couple issues 204 00:11:01.759 --> 00:11:05.519 for probably September, and he scanned them over, sent them 205 00:11:05.519 --> 00:11:08.519 over to me, and he was just like wow. And 206 00:11:08.559 --> 00:11:10.799 then I found my alluded. You know, I found those 207 00:11:11.039 --> 00:11:15.679 articles that kind of uncovered his story when it happened 208 00:11:15.759 --> 00:11:18.879 nineteen fifty three, and they were actually published from page 209 00:11:18.960 --> 00:11:24.120 US for like two weeks straight in this one particular 210 00:11:24.120 --> 00:11:27.879 newspaper in the capital of the county. But even those 211 00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:30.799 copies I could not find anywhere but the Historical Society. 212 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:33.519 They're not on the internet, they don't exist. And that 213 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:36.320 kind of Now I saw a story and I was 214 00:11:36.320 --> 00:11:38.759 piecing it together here by, you know, little by little. 215 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:41.879 I was still doing interviews with the elderly people based 216 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:44.159 on World War two book, but I kind of paused 217 00:11:44.159 --> 00:11:45.559 the World War Two book, and now I kind of 218 00:11:45.559 --> 00:11:49.279 started asking questions about this, and a lot of them 219 00:11:49.320 --> 00:11:51.279 were kind of reluctant to talk about it. And they're like, oh, 220 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.559 we don't, we don't, we don't talk about it. Someone 221 00:11:53.559 --> 00:11:55.960 told me that, you know, I once they did a 222 00:11:56.000 --> 00:12:00.200 girl and she was a daughter of one of the thirteen, 223 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:02.519 and my mom said I couldn't date her, so I 224 00:12:02.600 --> 00:12:04.080 better not talk about it. I hang out these are 225 00:12:04.159 --> 00:12:08.799 like older folks, and I'm like, okay. So then after 226 00:12:08.840 --> 00:12:13.039 I pieced it enough from the newspapers, I said to myself, 227 00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:14.799 you know, like there's got to be more to the story. 228 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:18.240 So as one of the town historians, I reached out 229 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:23.279 to the prosecutor's office in the county and I asked 230 00:12:23.320 --> 00:12:26.879 if this file exists for this murder through the OPRAH 231 00:12:28.120 --> 00:12:31.919 and Open Public Relations Act, and they're like, it does exist, 232 00:12:32.240 --> 00:12:35.440 but it's so old. It's in the box, it's offsite, 233 00:12:35.559 --> 00:12:37.080 like we don't know where it is. No one's acced 234 00:12:37.120 --> 00:12:39.159 us this since fifty three, but we could try to 235 00:12:39.159 --> 00:12:41.360 find it for you. I'm like okay, and I kind 236 00:12:41.360 --> 00:12:43.399 of just let it go. I'm back to my World 237 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:47.960 War two research. And then then I received a file. 238 00:12:48.039 --> 00:12:52.639 They actually scanned it for me with autopso reports, pictures, names, 239 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:57.120 mug shots, I mean everything. And that's when I'm like, okay, 240 00:12:57.120 --> 00:12:58.519 I can't just put this to this side, Like I 241 00:12:58.559 --> 00:13:01.399 have to do something with this. And I started writing 242 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:04.440 and just researching and piecing it together, and I said, 243 00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:06.399 it's an accidental book because it's never really meant to 244 00:13:06.399 --> 00:13:09.360 be a book. I finished the entire manuscript. I put 245 00:13:09.399 --> 00:13:11.639 it in a three ring binder. I brought it to 246 00:13:11.679 --> 00:13:14.080 the museum in Denville. I put it amongst the other 247 00:13:14.120 --> 00:13:16.399 binders of stories, and I just like walked away from 248 00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:18.919 it and I'm like, all right, well, I'm done. And 249 00:13:18.960 --> 00:13:22.080 then members of the Historical Society we had a meeting 250 00:13:22.080 --> 00:13:24.759 and they're like, you should probably like look into that, 251 00:13:24.879 --> 00:13:27.480 like this story needs to be told. And I was 252 00:13:27.559 --> 00:13:30.759 kind of reluctant, mainly because I live in a town. 253 00:13:30.960 --> 00:13:32.759 I have two young kids that live in a town, 254 00:13:32.840 --> 00:13:35.399 and this is a very touchy topic that was clearly 255 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:42.240 meticulously hidden for you know, seventy years add years, And 256 00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.600 at that time I was not yet able to locate 257 00:13:45.879 --> 00:13:47.960 all the members of the thirteen. Since then, I have 258 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.519 located all of them. But at the time I wasn't sure, 259 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:52.960 like what if, you know, like what if I know 260 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:54.879 they're grand kids or my kids are best friends with 261 00:13:54.960 --> 00:13:57.080 their grant grand kids. It was kind of like this, 262 00:13:57.679 --> 00:14:00.639 I don't know. But then more I thought about it, 263 00:14:00.679 --> 00:14:02.320 and I feel like the way I wrote the book 264 00:14:02.559 --> 00:14:05.080 ultimately is like I felt like there really was a 265 00:14:05.120 --> 00:14:08.279 story that it was I put it in context, and 266 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:10.120 once I put it in as a story, and I 267 00:14:10.120 --> 00:14:13.759 thought of it why would something like this happen? And 268 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:17.080 also why would something like this be hidden for seventy years? 269 00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:18.919 And then I felt like this really was at the 270 00:14:19.000 --> 00:14:21.480 end of the day history, and this was you know, 271 00:14:21.600 --> 00:14:23.639 like I tell my students in my high school history 272 00:14:23.639 --> 00:14:26.120 teacher during the day, and I tell my students all 273 00:14:26.120 --> 00:14:29.200 the time that you know, if I teach history right, 274 00:14:30.120 --> 00:14:32.399 I'm going to offend somebody at some point this year 275 00:14:33.279 --> 00:14:36.639 because history is offensive. And I kind of stuck with 276 00:14:36.679 --> 00:14:39.840 that and decided, oh, you know what, let's let's turn 277 00:14:39.879 --> 00:14:42.559 this into a manuscript and send it out. And I did, 278 00:14:42.600 --> 00:14:45.720 and I got interest from publishers right away, actually within 279 00:14:45.759 --> 00:14:49.159 like days, and you know, I picked a history press, 280 00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:52.240 Arcadia Publishing, and uh, we're having this conversation. 281 00:14:54.120 --> 00:14:57.799 Very interesting now as you read in the book, you 282 00:14:57.840 --> 00:15:01.559 give us a background, because like I mentioned and before 283 00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:05.240 we spoke on the program here is that we've got 284 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:07.399 to give the historical and you do give the historical 285 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.080 background of what Denville and America was like in nineteen 286 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.120 fifty three. And in fact, with some of the research 287 00:15:14.159 --> 00:15:17.919 you've done as a historian, you know that from nineteen 288 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:22.399 forty three there was talk about juvenile delinquency, so tell 289 00:15:22.480 --> 00:15:27.159 us about what America and this little place of six 290 00:15:27.200 --> 00:15:32.000 thousand population Denville was doing. What was the situation in 291 00:15:32.039 --> 00:15:37.320 Denville regarding juvenile juveniles and juvenile delinquency. What did the 292 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:42.440 people of that community in America? What were their concerns? 293 00:15:42.879 --> 00:15:46.559 Yep, so Bason, I feel like Denville's very much like 294 00:15:46.559 --> 00:15:51.200 a microcosm of just suburbia America nineteen forties, nineteen fifties, 295 00:15:51.240 --> 00:15:53.759 and what ultimately happened in nineteen forties. And I got 296 00:15:53.759 --> 00:15:56.639 this a lot from first hand accounts because of interviewing 297 00:15:56.639 --> 00:16:01.120 people that lived here at the time. To America. When 298 00:16:01.120 --> 00:16:04.240 World War Two started, everyone seemed to pitch in. And 299 00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:08.399 while the male population oftentime was drafted and went to 300 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.240 fight in the war, the female population really did enter 301 00:16:11.279 --> 00:16:13.879 the workforce. And you know, we've studied this in textbooks 302 00:16:13.879 --> 00:16:16.320 and we you know, we see this in documentaries, but 303 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:19.679 just listening from the real perspective, looking at letters from 304 00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.240 real people and diary entries and speaking to people that 305 00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:25.840 were alive during the time, both parents entered the workforce, 306 00:16:26.080 --> 00:16:31.960 and all these parents worked in war related industries. Nearby Denville, 307 00:16:31.960 --> 00:16:36.600 there was actually Picatinny Arsenal, which was supplying the military 308 00:16:36.639 --> 00:16:40.120 during World War Two, and it hired a lot of 309 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:43.279 local Denvil people, you know, female as well as male. 310 00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:48.240 There was also a radio airfield nearby Denvill, like a 311 00:16:48.279 --> 00:16:52.200 mile outside of Denville that was making radios and transistors 312 00:16:52.639 --> 00:16:54.840 for World War Two. There was so much war work 313 00:16:55.120 --> 00:16:59.480 that ultimately you had parents for the first time, especially 314 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:01.919 following the depression where there was this pinch there's not 315 00:17:02.000 --> 00:17:06.000 enough money nineteen thirties or worked kind of tough nineteen forties, 316 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:08.279 a whole a sudden, there's an opportunity to go to work, 317 00:17:08.319 --> 00:17:11.319 and people jump on that opportunity, and unfortunately it starts 318 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.559 to happen. Is as I started to go home. Back 319 00:17:14.599 --> 00:17:17.960 in newspapers into nineteen forties, I started reading about this 320 00:17:18.279 --> 00:17:21.480 juvenile delinquency problem, which was not just in Denville, but 321 00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:24.480 it really was a national issue, but very much for 322 00:17:24.519 --> 00:17:27.759 the same reasons. And the reason was that both parents 323 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.319 went to work and the kids were kind of left unattended. 324 00:17:32.359 --> 00:17:37.680 Now by kids, I actually read accounts of I mean 325 00:17:37.720 --> 00:17:41.319 like four or five year olds left home alone, you know, 326 00:17:41.599 --> 00:17:44.799 for five hours at a time, and I thought to myself, 327 00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:46.680 you know, five year olds, I mean, how do you 328 00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:48.759 leave a five year old for six hours, but they did, 329 00:17:48.759 --> 00:17:53.440 I guess different times. However, the juvenile delinquency problem that 330 00:17:53.559 --> 00:17:59.599 started in the forties, Denville actually held the community meetings. 331 00:18:00.039 --> 00:18:02.039 First time that held these community meetings in a community 332 00:18:02.119 --> 00:18:05.519 church was in the forties because there was a juvenile 333 00:18:05.640 --> 00:18:07.960 linksy problem that dealt with kids that were under the 334 00:18:08.000 --> 00:18:11.160 age of ten. And that's what shocked the community. It's 335 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:13.519 like there was an eight year old that stole someone's 336 00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:17.119 gun and basically you just ran around town sort of 337 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:20.559 shooting in windows. He was caught. He was he had 338 00:18:20.599 --> 00:18:23.400 just turned eight years old, and think of my eight 339 00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:25.200 year old. He can't even tie his shoes, right, you know, 340 00:18:25.319 --> 00:18:30.440 Like there's again discrepancy here, you know. And that was 341 00:18:30.440 --> 00:18:32.680 the issues, like why are what's going on? And even 342 00:18:32.839 --> 00:18:35.799 then they were able to pinpoint that. They were very 343 00:18:35.839 --> 00:18:39.079 quick to attack the parents, you know. And when you 344 00:18:39.200 --> 00:18:42.119 listen and you looked at those statements from the forties, 345 00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:43.920 they're saying, well, everyone's too busy trying to get a 346 00:18:44.000 --> 00:18:46.680 job and make a buck, and everyone's leaving these kids 347 00:18:46.720 --> 00:18:50.079 alone to kind of raise themselves. And that same premise 348 00:18:50.240 --> 00:18:53.880 kind of continues from the forties onto the fifties. Now 349 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:57.799 in Denville's case. What's very interesting is that the Denvil 350 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:01.720 juvenile problem with kids that were like eight years old, 351 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:05.000 and when the case of Denvill thirteen, which we're going 352 00:19:05.079 --> 00:19:08.279 to talk about a little bit, comes into play, you know, 353 00:19:08.440 --> 00:19:12.799 ten years later or eight years later, they're not necessarily 354 00:19:13.000 --> 00:19:16.079 different kids. They're the same generation kids. They simply grew 355 00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:20.000 up and now they're seventeen and eighteen as opposed to being. 356 00:19:19.920 --> 00:19:20.559 Eight years old. 357 00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:24.319 So it's not like the juvenile delinquency problem changed in 358 00:19:24.319 --> 00:19:27.000 the sense that it became different. It was the same problem. 359 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:29.599 It's just that the generation of these kids that were 360 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:35.880 left alone grew up to continuously also be left alone. Right, 361 00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:38.119 And I kind of felt like, overall speaking, I think 362 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.440 this is a ton of shows across the nation very 363 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.640 similar trends. 364 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:47.640 Right. So, you have a city, a town concerned with 365 00:19:47.839 --> 00:19:51.559 the attitude of young people and too much time on 366 00:19:51.599 --> 00:19:55.319 their hands, and there's all kinds of conversations about why, 367 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.640 what contributes to all of this, including sort of a 368 00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:04.319 breakdown of the family unit. Everything is discussed. You take 369 00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:09.079 us to Paul's Diner August thirtieth, nineteen fifty three, about 370 00:20:09.119 --> 00:20:13.640 two thirty am in Mountain Lakes which must be near Denville, 371 00:20:14.599 --> 00:20:16.160 and it's still thereby day. 372 00:20:16.319 --> 00:20:18.480 You could still go get yourself a cheesebake there if 373 00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:18.799 you want. 374 00:20:20.079 --> 00:20:24.200 Now, this August thirtieth is just the day before school 375 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:28.000 is supposed to be back in. So tell us about 376 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:33.400 what who are at this Paul's diner according to witnesses 377 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:35.799 at two thirty am. 378 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:40.480 So two thirty am, according to witnesses, a group of 379 00:20:40.599 --> 00:20:44.240 four boys come into a diner. They look very agitated. 380 00:20:44.960 --> 00:20:48.559 It is late. They're technically starting school the next day, 381 00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.480 so it's like the last day of the summer, and 382 00:20:50.519 --> 00:20:52.440 they kind of seem out of place, but they get 383 00:20:52.519 --> 00:20:55.440 the booth. We don't really know what they ordered per se, 384 00:20:55.519 --> 00:20:57.880 but we know they didn't stay along. We know that 385 00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:00.920 they've stayed in this one particular booth, and they kept 386 00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:03.119 them looking around as if they were kind of scared 387 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:06.599 to be there. Their kids range. The youngest when was fourteen. 388 00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:09.960 The oldest boy was twenty two. The other two that 389 00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:14.119 were present were eighteen and seventeen, so mostly teenagers. One 390 00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:16.519 person that was not a teenager. In fact, out of 391 00:21:16.559 --> 00:21:20.000 the thirteen from the Denvil thirteen, only one is not 392 00:21:20.119 --> 00:21:22.920 a teenager, and that's this twenty two year old, and 393 00:21:23.400 --> 00:21:27.920 they don't stay long. However, what happens is as they leave, 394 00:21:29.039 --> 00:21:31.839 they decide to leave after a little bit, and apparently 395 00:21:32.319 --> 00:21:36.039 out of one of these voice back pockets, pocket falls 396 00:21:36.039 --> 00:21:40.200 out a wallet, and the wallet kind of gets like 397 00:21:40.240 --> 00:21:42.640 I would say, gets nudged in between the cushion or 398 00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:46.000 your back cushion and your seat cushion and that booth, 399 00:21:47.079 --> 00:21:50.319 and that wallet belonged to a particular man. His name 400 00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:55.319 was Ross was his first name, and it was an 401 00:21:55.400 --> 00:21:58.799