1 00:00:11,759 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 1: Hello everyone, and welcome to Talk Nerdy. Today is Monday, 2 00:00:15,759 --> 00:00:18,960 March sixteenth, twenty twenty six, and I'm the host of 3 00:00:19,000 --> 00:00:23,399 the show Doctor Kara Santa Maria, and as always, I 4 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:26,760 want to start this episode by thanking those of you 5 00:00:26,800 --> 00:00:31,239 who make Talk Nerdy possible. We are on episode number 6 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:34,640 five hundred and ninety three. I've been doing this since 7 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:37,880 twenty fourteen, and I would not be able to keep 8 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,640 making this show if it weren't for you, the amazing patrons. Remember, 9 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:44,840 this show is and will always be one hundred percent 10 00:00:45,359 --> 00:00:48,079 free to download, and the way that I keep doing 11 00:00:48,119 --> 00:00:51,320 it week after week is by relying on the support 12 00:00:51,399 --> 00:00:54,719 of individuals just like you. If you'd like to pledge 13 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:57,479 your support on an episodic basis, all you have to 14 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:01,799 do is visit patreon dot com slash talk Nerdy to 15 00:01:01,920 --> 00:01:07,439 learn more. This week's top patrons include Chuck Blell, David J. E. Smith, 16 00:01:07,719 --> 00:01:13,439 Daniel Lang, Mary Neva, Will DeFraine, David Compton, Brian Holden, Gabo, 17 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:18,599 Jay Ulrica Hagman, Pasqually Gelati, and Joe Wilkinson. Thank you 18 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,359 all so much. Okay, let's get into it. This week, 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,959 I had the opportunity to chat with doctor Caroline Tracy 20 00:01:27,439 --> 00:01:31,719 about her new books, Salt Lakes and Unnatural History. She 21 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:37,920 is a science and nature writer who work focuses on 22 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:42,400 the environment, migration, and the arts in the American Southwest, 23 00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,200 Mexico and their borderlands. She's written for all sorts of 24 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:51,480 outlooks like The New Yorker, High Country News, New York 25 00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:54,959 Review of Books, and elsewhere. She's won a bunch of awards. 26 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:59,159 And this is her debut book. Again it's called Salt 27 00:01:59,239 --> 00:02:03,719 Lakes and Unnatural History. So without any further ado, here 28 00:02:03,799 --> 00:02:08,840 she is doctor Caroline Tracy. Well, Caroline, thank you so 29 00:02:08,919 --> 00:02:10,039 much for joining me today. 30 00:02:10,360 --> 00:02:11,199 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 31 00:02:11,879 --> 00:02:15,039 Speaker 1: I'm excited to talk about your new book, Salt Lakes 32 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,719 and Unnatural History. But before we get into the book 33 00:02:18,759 --> 00:02:21,800 itself and some of the interesting topics that you dive into, 34 00:02:22,199 --> 00:02:25,319 I love to learn a little bit more about you. 35 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:29,439 So would you call yourself a geographer? Like what is 36 00:02:29,479 --> 00:02:32,639 a person with a PhD in geographies title? 37 00:02:33,360 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 3: It is technically a geographer. My profession is not being 38 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:40,360 a geographer necessarily, but I do think it is a 39 00:02:40,400 --> 00:02:43,159 good descriptor of the way I view the world and 40 00:02:43,199 --> 00:02:46,840 approach things, so I do use it, and I do 41 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:48,360 have a graduate degree in it, So I feel like 42 00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:50,560 I've earned the right to call myself a geographer, even 43 00:02:50,599 --> 00:02:53,759 if my job isn't, like, you know, making maps. 44 00:02:54,439 --> 00:02:57,960 Speaker 1: Absolutely, I feel like once and if you did the work, 45 00:02:58,039 --> 00:02:59,560 like you get to own that for the rest of 46 00:02:59,599 --> 00:03:02,280 your life. If you are, you will always be a geographer. 47 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:06,240 But you're spending would you say you're spending most of 48 00:03:06,280 --> 00:03:07,680 your time now as a writer? 49 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:08,560 Speaker 2: Yeah? 50 00:03:08,599 --> 00:03:11,159 Speaker 3: I when you know, I will call myself a geographer 51 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,599 or I'll say writer and geographer. But writer really is 52 00:03:14,039 --> 00:03:15,159 the title I tend to use. 53 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: And so do you prefer as a writer to stick with? 54 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:23,240 I mean, obviously, this is a full length book, which 55 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,719 is like every time I have somebody on who tackled 56 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,039 a kind of science or academic topic in a full 57 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,919 length book, I'm always like, Oh, how do you do it? 58 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:34,479 You're so brave. But but do you prefer to write 59 00:03:34,479 --> 00:03:37,280 in long form or do you prefer shorter pieces? Or 60 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:38,599 do you just kind of run the gamut. 61 00:03:39,400 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 3: It's a good question because I feel like there are 62 00:03:42,319 --> 00:03:46,639 benefits to all three. When I was doing my doctorate 63 00:03:46,719 --> 00:03:51,919 in geography, I sometimes felt like the speed of academia 64 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,639 was much too slow for me, I wanted to change 65 00:03:55,120 --> 00:03:59,120 topics more frequently than is really allowed, and so I 66 00:03:59,199 --> 00:04:02,599 became a journalist in which I'm basically writing a new 67 00:04:02,680 --> 00:04:05,879 article every single week, and sometimes that feels way too quick. 68 00:04:06,919 --> 00:04:10,400 And so the book was really nice balance for me. 69 00:04:10,439 --> 00:04:13,840 Even though it's a really long undertaking. I had so 70 00:04:13,960 --> 00:04:17,279 much creative control over what the different chapters did, and 71 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:19,120 I was able to kind of, you know, put it 72 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:21,319 aside for a little while and then come back to it. 73 00:04:21,399 --> 00:04:25,319 And so I guess, I guess I like long form, 74 00:04:25,399 --> 00:04:28,839 but with a little more of an eclectic approach than 75 00:04:29,720 --> 00:04:30,680 you know, being a scholar. 76 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,680 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and I feel like there's a lot of crossover 77 00:04:35,399 --> 00:04:38,000 for from like looking at your book and looking at 78 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:40,560 all of the incredible blurbs and all of the people 79 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:44,279 who read an early copy and you know, gave props, 80 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:47,519 like so many of them have been on Talk Nerdy. 81 00:04:47,639 --> 00:04:49,480 So it's really fun that you're here with us today 82 00:04:49,519 --> 00:04:52,519 because I'm seeing Ben Goldfarb, and I'm seeing Melissa Sevani, 83 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,560 and I'm seeing Michelle Nighthaus and and you know, all 84 00:04:55,639 --> 00:04:57,839 these people that we've already featured on the show. So 85 00:04:57,879 --> 00:04:58,920 you're in good company here. 86 00:04:58,959 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 2: That's so fun. Yeah. 87 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 3: I mean, I'm there, like, you know, my forebears in 88 00:05:03,160 --> 00:05:06,000 this kind of writing, So I'm honored. 89 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 1: Awesome, So tell me a little bit. I mean, as 90 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:12,560 a geographer, but also as a writer and science writer, 91 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:18,600 what drew you first to the topic of salt lakes? Like, 92 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,360 I don't know. I mean, obviously they affect all of 93 00:05:21,399 --> 00:05:23,839 our lives, and we'll get into that, But I don't 94 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:26,000 know how many people listening to the show right now 95 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:28,079 are like I don't really even think about that, maybe 96 00:05:28,120 --> 00:05:29,040 if you live near. 97 00:05:28,879 --> 00:05:32,120 Speaker 3: One, exactly. I was one of those people. I never 98 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:34,079 thought about them. I guess I knew that Salt Lake 99 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:36,199 City was a place that existed, but I grew up 100 00:05:36,199 --> 00:05:38,639 in Denver. It's very close to Utah, but like, we 101 00:05:38,680 --> 00:05:40,800 would never go to Utah because we basically lived in 102 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:42,720 a version of you, you know, we had our own mountains, 103 00:05:42,720 --> 00:05:44,560 We had our only city next to mountains I had. 104 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:46,720 Speaker 2: Utah was not a place I really thought about. 105 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,759 Speaker 3: And then when I was in my early twenties, I 106 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,600 was dating someone who had grown up in California and 107 00:05:53,759 --> 00:05:57,560 we ended up taking a bunch of road trips around 108 00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,439 eastern California and Nevada, and that was a part of 109 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,680 the American West that I was totally unfamiliar with, and 110 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,519 so we went to the salt and sea. We went 111 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,199 to Owen's Lake and Mono Lake and Nevada where you 112 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:16,000 have the basin and Range region. So basically every single 113 00:06:16,639 --> 00:06:20,800 valley in between mountains in Nevada is a closed valley 114 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:22,560 with a salt lake at the bottom of it, all 115 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,279 these tiny salt lakes that are dry most of the year, 116 00:06:26,319 --> 00:06:30,319 and I was just really taken with this landscape. It's 117 00:06:30,399 --> 00:06:33,639 really striking when you're driving to come upon these lakes 118 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:39,600 because they're extraordinarily blue. Because they have the suspended minerals 119 00:06:39,600 --> 00:06:42,720 in them, they reflect really well, and so you see 120 00:06:42,959 --> 00:06:45,879 the sky and the mountains reflected in the lake in 121 00:06:45,920 --> 00:06:49,240 this really beautiful way. And I just was so shocked 122 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,199 that these lakes would exist in this place in the desert, 123 00:06:52,279 --> 00:06:54,319 and then confused. 124 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:54,639 Speaker 2: Why are they there? 125 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:59,600 Speaker 3: And do I keep finding more of them? And then 126 00:07:00,399 --> 00:07:01,759 that set me off on this journey. 127 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:05,560 Speaker 1: I love that, And so maybe you can help us 128 00:07:05,639 --> 00:07:08,959 understand right at the beginning what exactly a salt lake is, 129 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:10,920 because I heard you mentioned, you know, they have all 130 00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,519 of these minerals suspended in them, so salt lakes aren't 131 00:07:13,600 --> 00:07:15,720 just lakes of salt, are there. 132 00:07:16,199 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, the term salt really refers not only to just 133 00:07:19,959 --> 00:07:22,240 sodium chlorid what we would think of as table salt, 134 00:07:22,279 --> 00:07:25,000 but it's any of the minerals that are suspended. So 135 00:07:25,079 --> 00:07:28,759 some of the lakes have some of the lakes do 136 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:31,519 have mostly table salts spended in them, like the Great 137 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,759 Salt Lake, but some have higher concentrations of other minerals. 138 00:07:36,399 --> 00:07:39,360 But what I tend to describe salt lakes as are 139 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:43,600 not by the amount of salts suspended in them. You know, 140 00:07:43,639 --> 00:07:47,360 the scientists could tell you there's a certain threshold, but 141 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:50,759 I think that there's so much variation within salt lakes 142 00:07:50,759 --> 00:07:53,199 that for me, what's an easier way to understand what 143 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:56,399 they are is how they form geologically. And so basically, 144 00:07:56,680 --> 00:07:59,000 salt lakes are lakes that form at the base of 145 00:07:59,040 --> 00:08:02,199 a closed valley. So that means a valley that doesn't 146 00:08:02,199 --> 00:08:06,439 have an outlet where the water could flow out. And 147 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,360 what happens is that the water from around the valley 148 00:08:11,240 --> 00:08:14,279 or the basin collects and it doesn't have anywhere to 149 00:08:14,319 --> 00:08:18,240 go except for to evaporate, and so when it evaporates, 150 00:08:18,279 --> 00:08:20,839 it leaves behind the minerals that are suspended in it, 151 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:27,360 and that forms a lake over you know, geologic time. 152 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,319 So many of these salt lakes are the remnants of 153 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:35,080 the of much larger plissscene Arara lakes or inland seas, 154 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,279 and so we're just seeing the sort of modern day 155 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,879 remnants of those. And then they do have this kind 156 00:08:40,919 --> 00:08:44,679 of influx of fresh water each year that brings with 157 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:46,080 it a small amount of minerals too. 158 00:08:46,799 --> 00:08:50,039 Speaker 1: Okay, so that is fascinating because I'm probably not the 159 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:53,679 only one here who just kind of assumed that assault. 160 00:08:53,759 --> 00:08:55,120 But now that I think about it, it's like, what 161 00:08:55,200 --> 00:08:57,240 was I thinking? The salt lakes that I know about 162 00:08:57,279 --> 00:08:59,960 are really far inland, but like, who just kind of 163 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:01,919 I assume that salt lakes are formed kind of the 164 00:09:01,960 --> 00:09:04,720 way that like, what are they called ox bow lakes 165 00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:06,799 are formed where it's like a you know, that's like 166 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:08,919 a piece of a river or something that gets pinched off. 167 00:09:08,960 --> 00:09:10,960 Why did I assume that it was like ocean water. 168 00:09:12,399 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 3: I mean, I guess in one moment in geologic time 169 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:20,720 some of them were ocean water, but really nowadays their 170 00:09:20,759 --> 00:09:24,600 inflows are fresh water, and so sometimes I mean you'll 171 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,159 hear when with these salt lakes that are kind of 172 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,159 drying up, like the Great Salt Lake or the Salt 173 00:09:29,159 --> 00:09:31,039 and Sea. You'll hear the idea of, oh, well, we 174 00:09:31,080 --> 00:09:33,879 could build a pipeline from the ocean, but actually that 175 00:09:33,919 --> 00:09:37,840 wouldn't really help because they rely the ecosystem relies on 176 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:41,639 fresh water refilling the lake each year, not saltwater. 177 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm curious about some of these, like lagoons. I 178 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:51,480 was just looking it up. I visited the Blue Lagoon 179 00:09:51,519 --> 00:09:55,159 in Iceland recently, which has this like really interesting mineral 180 00:09:55,200 --> 00:09:59,799 content in the waters, like baby Blue, but it's geothermal, 181 00:10:00,159 --> 00:10:03,080 And I was would would that be considered a salt 182 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:05,759 lake or is that sort of like a completely different process. 183 00:10:06,279 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 2: That's a good question. 184 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:13,480 Speaker 3: I'm not specifically sure about those thermal lagoons. 185 00:10:14,759 --> 00:10:15,720 Speaker 2: I will say, like. 186 00:10:15,759 --> 00:10:20,159 Speaker 3: The Salt and Sea, for instance, has a lot of 187 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,159 geothermal activity around it. Actually there's like a geothermal there 188 00:10:24,159 --> 00:10:27,240 are geothermal plants right around it. So that and that 189 00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,240 has to do with the fact that it is on 190 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:35,399 a fault line, so it's almost like a separate it's 191 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:38,360 almost like a Maybe some scientists will listen and tell 192 00:10:38,399 --> 00:10:39,840 me I'm wrong that it's that I'm about to say 193 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:42,679 it's a coincidence. But my understanding is, you know, there's 194 00:10:43,519 --> 00:10:45,480 this one geologic process that sort of created the salt 195 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:47,399 and Sea there, and then there happens to be also 196 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,759 a fault line running through it that creates all kinds 197 00:10:49,759 --> 00:10:56,000 of geothermal activity. But I will add also that in Spanish, 198 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:58,559 and I think in Portuguese too, they use the word 199 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:02,720 laguna to refer to any type of water body that 200 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:08,200 has only one inflow or outflow. So a salt lake, 201 00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,360 an inland salt lake in Spanish is a laguna. There's 202 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:14,840 the Laguna Sala, which is like basically the salt and Sea, 203 00:11:14,879 --> 00:11:16,000 but on the Mexican. 204 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: Side, and it's a laguna. 205 00:11:17,639 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 3: But then also you have coastal lagunas because it's just 206 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:22,919 a place where the ocean enters but doesn't really have 207 00:11:22,919 --> 00:11:24,000 a separate exit. 208 00:11:24,799 --> 00:11:28,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, which we have obviously. I live in southern California, 209 00:11:28,279 --> 00:11:31,480 and so we've got even places named laguna Laguna beach, right, 210 00:11:31,559 --> 00:11:34,480 So yeah, for that very phenomenon, And of course the 211 00:11:34,480 --> 00:11:37,759 Saltan Sea is somewhat nearby. I've actually never visited it, 212 00:11:37,799 --> 00:11:41,320 but I've always been really fascinated by the Saltan Sea, 213 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:45,080 both from a. I guess you could say scientific historical, 214 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:50,919 geographical perspective, but also just from a cultural perspective as well. 215 00:11:51,159 --> 00:11:53,519 So maybe for folks who don't know because they're not, 216 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,120 you know, over on this part of the country. What 217 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,360 do you like, What did you dig into about the 218 00:11:59,399 --> 00:12:01,480 Saltan Sea because you did mention it a couple times. 219 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, that's one that you know. I think many 220 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:07,039 people have heard of Great Salt Lake because it's the 221 00:12:07,159 --> 00:12:10,200 name of a major city. But the other lake that 222 00:12:10,279 --> 00:12:12,879 often people have heard of that I wrote about in 223 00:12:12,919 --> 00:12:15,960 this book is the Salt and Sea because it holds 224 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:19,679 this very strong allure, especially for Californians. 225 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:20,879 Speaker 2: I think the. 226 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:25,679 Speaker 3: Salt and Sea was created essentially by accident in nineteen 227 00:12:25,720 --> 00:12:29,480 oh five, when the early settlers to what is now 228 00:12:29,480 --> 00:12:33,840 the Imperial Valley built built very quickly an irrigation canal 229 00:12:34,000 --> 00:12:38,000 to divert water from the Colorado River into the area 230 00:12:38,039 --> 00:12:43,080 they wanted to farm. And that year the Colorado River 231 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:48,200 had an enormous sort of above average, well above average 232 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:54,159 snowpack and came flooding down and accidentally diverted its entire 233 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:59,759 course into this irrigation canal. It wiped out everything that 234 00:12:59,799 --> 00:13:02,320 had built, you know, all the railroad tracks, all the 235 00:13:02,360 --> 00:13:07,720 telephone poles, and it filled up a basin, which it's 236 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,399 not that it had never filled up before. It was 237 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:13,600 a basin that was kind of part of the region 238 00:13:13,639 --> 00:13:18,240 that had a historic lake called Lake Cahuila, but it 239 00:13:18,279 --> 00:13:22,080 wasn't something that had a lake, you know, permanently, and 240 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:26,559 so it filled up. And then the lake continued to 241 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:30,480 be filled year after year by flood irrigation from the 242 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,399 Imperial Valley. So every year the farmers, you know, would 243 00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:37,639 flood their fields to water their crops, and that water 244 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:40,039 would run off into the lowest point of the valley, 245 00:13:40,279 --> 00:13:42,879 which is where the salt and sea had also settled. 246 00:13:44,080 --> 00:13:47,120 And there, you know that Actually there's a thing called 247 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,320 secondary salinity, which is where in desert regions that haven't 248 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:54,360 had a lot of rainfall, the soils are full of salt, 249 00:13:54,519 --> 00:13:57,159 and so when they would irrigate their fields, it would 250 00:13:57,159 --> 00:13:59,440 bring those salts in the soil to the surface and 251 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:01,679 they'd have to flood irrigate them again to get that 252 00:14:01,799 --> 00:14:04,759 salt to go away. So there was two rounds of 253 00:14:04,879 --> 00:14:08,360 water going into the salt and sea every year, and 254 00:14:08,399 --> 00:14:11,200 it made it pretty big for a long time, and 255 00:14:11,279 --> 00:14:14,480 it developed this kind of tourism industry, very popular with 256 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:20,039 people from la and then the lake started to dry up. Well, 257 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,440 first I would say, I think it started to scare 258 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:25,559 people off because it was filled with fish. And then 259 00:14:25,919 --> 00:14:28,799 when it gets really hot in the Imperial Valley, the 260 00:14:28,799 --> 00:14:32,759 fish would all die off and it would smell very bad. Then, 261 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:37,559 just about twenty years ago, there was a deal between 262 00:14:37,759 --> 00:14:41,240 the Imperial Irrigation District, the farmers of the Imperial Valley, 263 00:14:41,559 --> 00:14:44,399 and the City of San Diego to sell a large 264 00:14:44,399 --> 00:14:46,879 proportion of their water rights to the City of San 265 00:14:46,919 --> 00:14:50,840 Diego for drinking water. And so after that point much 266 00:14:50,919 --> 00:14:53,679 less water was going into the salt and sea, and 267 00:14:53,759 --> 00:14:57,159 so it's been drying up pretty fast when you go 268 00:14:57,720 --> 00:15:00,600 there now, like I write in the book about visiting 269 00:15:00,639 --> 00:15:04,120 in twenty fourteen and how the beach at that point 270 00:15:04,159 --> 00:15:07,960 was fishbones and from all the fish dying off because 271 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:11,000 of the hot temperatures. But now when you go you 272 00:15:11,039 --> 00:15:13,120 do find those fishbones, but they're pretty far from the 273 00:15:13,120 --> 00:15:15,000 water's edge. You have to walk through this kind of 274 00:15:15,000 --> 00:15:18,919 former lake bed that's just like gray soft soil to 275 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:22,840 get to the water's edge. It's pretty noticeable, and that 276 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,080 in that time, you know, because it was this place 277 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:31,039 where this tourist industry was abandoned, these other communities started 278 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:34,080 to spring up. So now I think there's you know, 279 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:38,840 people know the Saltan Sea because nearby is Salvation Mountain, 280 00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:42,639 this mural that one man kind of dedicated his life 281 00:15:42,679 --> 00:15:47,039 to painting, Slab City and Bombay Beach, these towns that 282 00:15:47,360 --> 00:15:51,120 have kind of developed an allure for people because they're 283 00:15:51,279 --> 00:15:56,639 they're these sort of isolated, unusual places, and so the 284 00:15:56,639 --> 00:15:59,360 Sultan Sea has layers of layers of interest. 285 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: It's fascinating. Does it still smell horrible down there? 286 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:04,039 Speaker 2: It smells? 287 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 3: I think now there are no fish, so now it's 288 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,000 not smelling because of the fish die offs because it's 289 00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:14,840 too saline now for fish to survive. But there are 290 00:16:14,919 --> 00:16:18,279 chemical reactions that are related to the fertilizers that are 291 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:19,960 dissolved in the water and that kind of thing. 292 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,960 Speaker 2: So it does definitely have smells at certain times. 293 00:16:22,960 --> 00:16:28,399 Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, I mean it's fascinating thinking about Well, it's 294 00:16:28,399 --> 00:16:31,600 fascinating thinking about both aspects. And I love that that's 295 00:16:31,639 --> 00:16:35,240 how you approached your writing as well. Like you thought 296 00:16:35,279 --> 00:16:38,840 about geologic you know, timescale, but you also thought about 297 00:16:38,879 --> 00:16:42,799 what we're doing right now to the landscape and how 298 00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:49,000 incredibly quickly human activity is shifting things. And then of 299 00:16:49,039 --> 00:16:53,879 course you shared, you know, your own personal story as 300 00:16:53,919 --> 00:16:57,320 you were researching and visiting these areas. And I want 301 00:16:57,320 --> 00:16:59,720 to kind of touch base if we have enough time 302 00:17:00,320 --> 00:17:03,360 on all three of those things. And I'm not sure 303 00:17:03,399 --> 00:17:05,839 what you feel most comfortable digging into first, but I 304 00:17:05,880 --> 00:17:09,200 have to say one reason that my kind of ears 305 00:17:09,200 --> 00:17:11,079 perked up, my eyes perked up, I don't even know 306 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:14,200 when your book crossed my desk, is because A we 307 00:17:14,279 --> 00:17:17,160 haven't talked about these phenomena on the show before. And B, 308 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,000 like I grew up Mormon, I didn't grow up in 309 00:17:21,039 --> 00:17:23,519 Salt Lake City. I grew up in Texas, but it 310 00:17:23,599 --> 00:17:26,240 was so I mean, anybody who has ever lived their 311 00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:29,920 life in the Mormon community, it's it's your whole life, 312 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:34,039 like it's such a massage a massive portion of your identity. 313 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:35,880 Of course, I left when I was very young. I'm 314 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:39,559 no longer a believer, but I love that you like 315 00:17:40,279 --> 00:17:44,480 learned about Salt Lake the you know, the great Salt 316 00:17:44,519 --> 00:17:48,799 Lake via kind of like Mormon history and genealogy and stuff. 317 00:17:49,680 --> 00:17:52,039 Speaker 3: Thank you. Yeah, I mean, actually, can I ask Can 318 00:17:52,079 --> 00:17:54,119 I ask you a question about that? Yeah? Please, I'm 319 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,240 curious what you know growing up in the Mormon Church. 320 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,039 What was your sort of perception of environmentalism, were concerned 321 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:02,920 for the environment? 322 00:18:03,599 --> 00:18:06,759 Speaker 1: I did not notice any of that. I mean, I 323 00:18:06,799 --> 00:18:08,960 will say, like again, I didn't grow up there. I 324 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:10,960 grew up in Texas, so I kind of grew up 325 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,880 in like oil country where it's like very very conservative. 326 00:18:15,519 --> 00:18:17,079 And I did leave the church when I was quite young. 327 00:18:17,079 --> 00:18:19,640 I was like fourteen fifteen, but my family is still 328 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:23,720 fully Mormon. Like I left, they didn't, which was a 329 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:25,720 whole thing which I've I've talked about on other shows. 330 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:30,200 But no, I you know, I don't remember there being 331 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:33,759 a lot of conversations about that. But I also don't 332 00:18:33,799 --> 00:18:39,960 remember an anti environmentalist bent either. I I just remember neutrality, 333 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,200 like I just didn't really hear people talk about it 334 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:43,000 when I was a kid. 335 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:46,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was I mean, that was something that 336 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,599 really interested me in the research I did for the 337 00:18:48,599 --> 00:18:53,079 book was to you know, talking with talking with Mormon 338 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:59,279 environmentalists about the sort of synergy they saw between the 339 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:02,240 church and environmentalism. But I definitely got the sense that 340 00:19:02,279 --> 00:19:05,599 they felt somewhat isolated in that interest in that effort. 341 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, I could definitely see. I mean, one thing 342 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,359 I will say about my experience in the Mormon Church 343 00:19:12,519 --> 00:19:15,759 is that for all of the problems that I could 344 00:19:15,759 --> 00:19:19,319 list with it, it was probably because culturally it is 345 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:23,440 a more like middle class existence, or at least it 346 00:19:23,519 --> 00:19:25,599 was in the eighties and nineties when you know, I 347 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:32,119 was younger. There was a real emphasis on like education, 348 00:19:32,799 --> 00:19:36,640 there was a real emphasis on knowledge, and on in 349 00:19:36,680 --> 00:19:39,519 some ways on kind of stewardship. Maybe more of the 350 00:19:39,559 --> 00:19:42,960 country than of the globe, but there definitely was a 351 00:19:43,000 --> 00:19:46,920 lot of emphasis on having a relationship with your home, 352 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,079 and of course history and the history of the West. 353 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,640 I mean, that was a huge part of the church 354 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,759 because you know, they moved west to settle and we 355 00:19:57,839 --> 00:20:01,599 can again where this podcast is not about the why 356 00:20:02,039 --> 00:20:06,039 and all the problems with them, but goodness did they 357 00:20:06,039 --> 00:20:09,039 have a lot of probably really rich descriptions of the 358 00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:10,920 landscape exactly. 359 00:20:11,039 --> 00:20:13,079 Speaker 3: Yeah, that was part of what drew me to doing 360 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,759 that research that well, Like I mentioned, I grew up 361 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:19,720 in Denver, and so I had this sort of environmentalist 362 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:23,000 culture that I was surrounded by from growing up there, 363 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,079 and it was really interesting to me to learn that 364 00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,599 in Salt Lake City that that sort of relationship to 365 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,599 the land had a religious element to it, and that 366 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:33,440 there were people who had sort of approached it as 367 00:20:33,519 --> 00:20:36,720 part of you know, scripture and belief. And so I 368 00:20:36,799 --> 00:20:42,000 was interested to learn about the relationship to land from 369 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:42,720 that perspective. 370 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,400 Speaker 1: And so what kinds of insights did you gain? I mean, 371 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,640 did you find that some of this sort of outsider 372 00:20:50,279 --> 00:20:54,200 science as it were, was just as rich as some 373 00:20:54,279 --> 00:20:56,759 of the documentation of you know, kind of I guess 374 00:20:56,759 --> 00:21:00,160 what you would consider to be like learned explorers or 375 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,440 were there insights that were offered by the sort of 376 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:06,160 Mormon literature that maybe we wouldn't have if we didn't 377 00:21:06,160 --> 00:21:07,000 have that literature. 378 00:21:07,559 --> 00:21:10,799 Speaker 3: That's a good question. I think that, you know, when 379 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:13,559 I was starting the interviews that I did, the word 380 00:21:13,599 --> 00:21:15,960 stewardship that you just mentioned came up a lot. I 381 00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:18,640 think that, you know, that's a big sort of keyword 382 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,200 in Mormon culture, as the impression I got, you know, 383 00:21:22,599 --> 00:21:26,599 just is stewardship at every sort of scale, right of 384 00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,559 your home, of your community, and. 385 00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:30,519 Speaker 2: Then of the planet. 386 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:33,839 Speaker 3: Right and so with that comes a degree of thrift 387 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:38,119 and not using more resources than you need and some 388 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:40,119 people told me that historically a lot of Mormons had 389 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:45,960 been vegetarians because of those principles, and and so that's 390 00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:47,839 kind of where it started, was these sort of daily 391 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:53,480 life practices. And then from there I got really interested 392 00:21:53,519 --> 00:21:58,839 in sort of the history of irrigation, because another reputation 393 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,119 that Mormons have, at least in the West and maybe nationally, 394 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,079 is they are irrigators. 395 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,559 Speaker 2: They they're like beavers, Like, that's like that people. 396 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,400 Speaker 1: So they like beavers too, Yeah, exactly, that's like there's 397 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:14,519 like bees and there's beavers, and there's like certain animals 398 00:22:14,559 --> 00:22:16,440 that they like celebrate in the Yeah. 399 00:22:16,319 --> 00:22:19,920 Speaker 3: It's like the envirments are obsessed with building downs, you know, 400 00:22:20,119 --> 00:22:23,519 like anyway, So that was I wanted to understand that history, 401 00:22:23,559 --> 00:22:26,200 like why why does this community that is a faith 402 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:29,880 community have this reputation for being obsessed with engineering, like 403 00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:35,480 and so I started to read about why, you know, 404 00:22:35,759 --> 00:22:37,839 why that was and what the history of it was. 405 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,640 And what I was interested to learn was that it 406 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,480 came out of really practicality, right that if you're going 407 00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:47,319 to settle in the American West, you need to move 408 00:22:47,400 --> 00:22:51,319 water from from the rivers to your field because it's 409 00:22:51,319 --> 00:22:54,519 not going to rain enough to grow crops, so it can't. 410 00:22:54,759 --> 00:22:57,119 It was born of a necessity, but it was of 411 00:22:57,160 --> 00:23:02,000 course organized in the same structure as the church oversight, 412 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:08,720 and so it became really melded with the faith community, 413 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:15,599 and I think from there the irrigation, you know, took 414 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:20,319 on this it took on a big significance and then 415 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,160 interesting what I was most surprised to find out was 416 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:28,960 that the Mormon sort of oversight of its irrigation works 417 00:23:29,759 --> 00:23:33,640 ends up becoming part of the basis of Western water law. 418 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:37,400 Speaker 1: Wow. Oh that is fascinating, And I mean, in a way, 419 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,039 it kind of doesn't surprise me because definitely when I 420 00:23:40,079 --> 00:23:41,799 think about the history of the church that I was 421 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:44,680 privy to as a woman, as a young woman, it 422 00:23:44,759 --> 00:23:49,960 definitely did seem like just for whatever reason, people who 423 00:23:50,319 --> 00:23:53,720 found themselves in this religion, especially early on, were also 424 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:58,279 just like very industrious and very politically motivated and so 425 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,759 being involved and obviously like there's an entire city and 426 00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:07,039 beyond that is like deeply enmeshed with the church, but 427 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:12,839 there's so many Mormon individuals in politics, in government in 428 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:16,759 these different areas, and especially when it comes like you 429 00:24:16,799 --> 00:24:20,240 mentioned to like infrastructure and municipal projects. I mean, my 430 00:24:20,319 --> 00:24:23,799 dad's an engineer. He's a Mormon engineer. Yeah, there you go. 431 00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,279 Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a book Cadillac Deserts, sort of a famous 432 00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:29,720 book about water in the West where and he says, 433 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,480 he has this line that I just really have not 434 00:24:32,519 --> 00:24:34,599 been able to corroborate, but it doesn't strike me as 435 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:37,960 terribly far fetched. I just don't know how far vegetes 436 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:40,480 where he says, like the Bureau of Reclamation, you know, 437 00:24:40,559 --> 00:24:43,440 the government dam building agency, he says it was primarily 438 00:24:43,519 --> 00:24:48,119 staffed by Mormons. And it's I mean, yeah, I haven't 439 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,839 been able to really fact check that, but it would 440 00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:54,119 make sense that the federal government was looking at Utah 441 00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:56,119 as the place to learn how to do what they 442 00:24:56,160 --> 00:24:56,720 wanted to do. 443 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,279 Speaker 1: And so how have their sort of policies. I mean, 444 00:25:01,319 --> 00:25:04,839 I know, it's like probably really complex because we've got 445 00:25:04,839 --> 00:25:08,200 this interplay of like both stewardship but also kind of 446 00:25:09,279 --> 00:25:14,839 exploitation and you know, colonialism and manifest destiny and all 447 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:18,279 of these things. But I'm curious, over time, how has 448 00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,680 the you know, the Great Salt Lake been managed and 449 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:23,000 how is it actually faring. 450 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a great question. The major problem facing salt 451 00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,279 lakes in addition to climate change, which has kind of 452 00:25:31,279 --> 00:25:34,359 made everything worse. But for decades, the issue has been 453 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:39,680 that the water that we use in arid regions, because 454 00:25:39,799 --> 00:25:44,400 salt lakes mainly are found in arid regions, is diverted 455 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,200 before it gets to these lakes, which are at the end, 456 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,319 you know, the end point of the rivers, because they're 457 00:25:49,319 --> 00:25:53,160 at the bottom of the valleys, and so along the 458 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,440 river's course there are many points of diversion for irrigation works. 459 00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,960 So this is true in Utah, but not only in Utah. 460 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,079 Of course, it's true in Colorado, it's true in Arizona, 461 00:26:03,119 --> 00:26:06,680 it's true in California that the water is diverted. 462 00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 2: On its way to these lakes. And the amount that 463 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:11,359 the water is. 464 00:26:11,319 --> 00:26:14,599 Speaker 3: Diverted has to do with the kind of concepts that 465 00:26:14,839 --> 00:26:20,359 undergird water loss. So there's an idea called beneficial use, 466 00:26:20,400 --> 00:26:22,799 which is you need to put the water that you 467 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:26,279 are allowed to use to use. You shouldn't waste it. 468 00:26:26,319 --> 00:26:30,200 Waste is the opposite of beneficial use. And then there's 469 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:33,119 this idea of prior appropriation, which is first in time, 470 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:36,039 first and right. So prior appropriation sort of gives you 471 00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:39,759 the list of who gets the first water right, second 472 00:26:39,799 --> 00:26:42,799 water right, third water right, and beneficial use says you 473 00:26:42,839 --> 00:26:45,039 can divert as much as you can use, but you 474 00:26:45,079 --> 00:26:47,839 can't divert more than you can use. And that's the 475 00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:50,880 one that came from you know, Brigham Young and Utah. 476 00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:57,880 But when they come together, they mean that you can't 477 00:26:58,319 --> 00:27:02,799 basically leave any water in the stream because that is waste. 478 00:27:02,880 --> 00:27:05,480 That's wasting the water. You're not putting it to beneficial use, 479 00:27:05,799 --> 00:27:07,680 to put it to the next person in the list 480 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:08,839 of prior appropriation. 481 00:27:09,519 --> 00:27:09,880 Speaker 2: And so. 482 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:14,799 Speaker 3: That has led to this situation now where the rivers 483 00:27:14,839 --> 00:27:17,920 are all over appropriated because the goal is to sort. 484 00:27:17,759 --> 00:27:19,519 Speaker 2: Of not leave water unused. 485 00:27:20,039 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 3: And that's a problem for lakes because for these terminal 486 00:27:24,079 --> 00:27:26,319 lakes I mean lakes at the bottom of closed basins, 487 00:27:26,759 --> 00:27:30,519 because no water or very little water, much less than 488 00:27:30,559 --> 00:27:34,240 they need, reaches them. So the problems that that creates 489 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:38,880 are primarily having to do with the ecosystem first, where 490 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,839 the creatures that live in these lakes require a certain 491 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:46,559 amount of salinity. Just because they can live high salinities 492 00:27:46,599 --> 00:27:48,640 relative to most of nature doesn't mean they can live 493 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:54,599 it extreme salinities, right, And it also as the lake shrinks, 494 00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:57,960 it's creating a problem for humans of dust storms. 495 00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: Oh okay, so sort of the soil that is exposed, 496 00:28:04,599 --> 00:28:07,319 is that what is kind of the foundation of the 497 00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:08,839 dust storms exactly. 498 00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:11,039 Speaker 3: So like soil, you know, I mean, it's not that 499 00:28:11,079 --> 00:28:14,720 you don't have dust storms from an exposed, bare ground 500 00:28:15,039 --> 00:28:19,880 area of the earth, but the soil the lake bed 501 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:21,079 is much looser. 502 00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:22,759 Speaker 2: It hasn't been compacted over. 503 00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:25,519 Speaker 3: Years in the same way that the ordinary earth surface has, 504 00:28:25,559 --> 00:28:26,759 and so it's very amissive. 505 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: Right, There's no plants grown into it, there's no root structure. 506 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,759 It is just loose dirt exactly. Yeah. Oh that's fascinating. 507 00:28:35,279 --> 00:28:39,319 And you know, we mentioned climate change kind of in passing, 508 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,000 and I understand why we always do this because it's 509 00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:44,799 like such a huge issue and like we all sort 510 00:28:44,839 --> 00:28:49,839 of get it to some extent, but ultimately I've always 511 00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:53,000 been confused about this. So, you know, the water cycle, 512 00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:56,839 like the globe is a system. It's a full system, 513 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,279 and there's only so much water on the planet, right, 514 00:28:59,319 --> 00:29:01,880 and the water operates and it recondenses and it rains 515 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:03,920 and it does all these really interesting things and it 516 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:08,160 seeps into the ground. But when we are extracting, extracting, extracting, 517 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:10,240 and then you add to that that the planet is 518 00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,079 getting hotter and hotter and hotter, which means more and 519 00:29:12,119 --> 00:29:16,240 more evaporation. A. How does that affect these lakes and 520 00:29:16,319 --> 00:29:19,720 b you know, how does that then kind of feed 521 00:29:19,799 --> 00:29:22,279 back on itself in the whole system. 522 00:29:22,519 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's a good question. And my understanding of it is, yes, 523 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,240 like there's sort of there's somehow this this amount of 524 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:33,039 water that like stays static and the earth. 525 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:34,079 Speaker 2: That's so confusing. 526 00:29:35,279 --> 00:29:39,319 Speaker 3: But what I think is happening is that in these 527 00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:43,799 closed basin systems. So if you picture, you know, picture 528 00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:47,440 Salt Lake City with the mountains around it, there's less 529 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,640 water in the system. There's less water. There's ugh snow 530 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:53,039 falling on those mountains every year, so there's less water 531 00:29:53,079 --> 00:29:57,079 to begin with. And then the other factor is that 532 00:29:57,759 --> 00:30:03,880 when the water is diverted onto irrigation irrigated fields, So 533 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:06,039 when you when you take that water out of the 534 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:09,319 river and then you're using it to water plants, a 535 00:30:09,359 --> 00:30:12,680 lot of that water is evaporating into back into the 536 00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:18,160 atmosphere and it's generally falling as rain on wetter systems, 537 00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,400 on system on like areas that are more likely to 538 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,119 get rained on. 539 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:26,759 Speaker 1: Right, And so actually something huge like it doesn't mean 540 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:30,960 that it's it's home mo genius, right. 541 00:30:31,119 --> 00:30:35,359 Speaker 3: Exactly, Like waters come is like evaporating, coming right back 542 00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:36,599 down onto the same mountains. 543 00:30:36,599 --> 00:30:38,119 Speaker 2: It's not like a closed loop like that. 544 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,880 Speaker 3: It's going into the atmosphere and it's falling in the 545 00:30:40,960 --> 00:30:44,519 places it's more likely to fall, and it's contributing to 546 00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,559 sea level rise because it's sort of moved, like all 547 00:30:47,599 --> 00:30:50,839 the irrigated agriculture and the evaporation from it ends up 548 00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:53,880 moving water into these wetter regions. 549 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,680 Speaker 1: Oh, that's fascinating. And so are we seeing that sort 550 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,279 of across the globe because obviously we've we've described you know, 551 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,039 American salt lakes so far. We are American. We both 552 00:31:04,079 --> 00:31:06,839 live in sort of the southwest region of America. But 553 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,200 there are obviously salt lakes all over the world, right, 554 00:31:11,279 --> 00:31:15,559 So are are all salt lakes evaporating. 555 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,279 Speaker 3: The vast majority? Yes, there and there are examples all 556 00:31:19,279 --> 00:31:22,920 over the world. So another example that maybe listeners will 557 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,240 be familiar with is the Aral Sea, which is in 558 00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:30,519 Central Asia and Kazakhstan and Uzbekistan that that was once 559 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,519 the world's fourth largest lake and is now like less 560 00:31:33,559 --> 00:31:36,640 than a tenth of its original size, largely because the 561 00:31:36,759 --> 00:31:40,920 rivers that fed it were diverted to help the Soviet 562 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:45,279 cotton industry. So those rivers were not reaching the sea 563 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:49,039 for years, and the sea essentially dried up as a result. 564 00:31:49,079 --> 00:31:51,519 And you've seen the same things on a bigger scale 565 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,920 as the Great Salt Lake or the Salt and Sea, 566 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:57,599 where you have massive dust storms, you know, health effects 567 00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,359 because the waters that were reaching the lake had fertilizer 568 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:06,519 and chemicals, pesticides in them, and so that dust, the 569 00:32:06,599 --> 00:32:09,880 dust has the residues of those that's fascinating. 570 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: Are are is there something about lakes being really really 571 00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:17,599 big and also being salty? I guess I'm looking it up. 572 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:22,079 And of course all of the lakes, the Great Lakes 573 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:25,960 are not salt lakes. They're freshwater lakes. But like I 574 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:29,519 don't know, the Caspian Sea, the Dead Sea, the salt 575 00:32:29,559 --> 00:32:31,920 you know, salt Lake, the Aral Sea, like those are 576 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,119 all salty, right. 577 00:32:33,359 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 3: The Caspian Sea is a salt lake. Yeah, and it 578 00:32:36,079 --> 00:32:37,079 is it is shrinking. 579 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: Actually, God, that's rough. Is the Dead Sea like different? 580 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,039 Because I mean I know it was different because I 581 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:45,759 visited it and I spent time in it, and I 582 00:32:45,799 --> 00:32:48,720 was like, oh, my body is tingling because it is 583 00:32:49,039 --> 00:32:51,279 very salty and you can like cut yourself and all 584 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:54,039 the jagged salt on the shores. But is that a 585 00:32:54,119 --> 00:32:58,039 different type of salt lake. I mean, it's very famously salty. 586 00:32:58,440 --> 00:32:59,359 Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't. 587 00:32:59,400 --> 00:33:01,039 Speaker 3: You know, I don't a chapter about the Dead Sea. 588 00:33:01,079 --> 00:33:02,960 I didn't research it for this book. But I have 589 00:33:03,119 --> 00:33:05,519 heard the same thing from other people about how much 590 00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:09,400 it makes your body hurt, which you know, in my experience. 591 00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: You know, the Great Salt Lake doesn't do that quite 592 00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:12,079 so much. 593 00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,279 Speaker 3: I think it is a salt lake like these others, 594 00:33:15,319 --> 00:33:19,000 but I think it has a higher, significantly higher salt constant. 595 00:33:19,079 --> 00:33:21,039 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I just looked it up. Jeez. It's nine 596 00:33:21,079 --> 00:33:26,240 times saltier than the ocean. It's hyper saline. Yeah, so 597 00:33:26,279 --> 00:33:28,559 then you can like sell the salt water for all 598 00:33:28,599 --> 00:33:30,839 this money and be all pseudo scientific about it. But 599 00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:32,759 I will say it was It was fun because you 600 00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:36,640 just float, like very easily float. But if you have 601 00:33:36,759 --> 00:33:39,200 an unknown cut on your body, you will discover it 602 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:39,759 when you walk. 603 00:33:40,599 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 3: Oh my god, I feel like I live with dry skin. 604 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:47,519 Speaker 2: I feel like I would just suffer. 605 00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 1: You gotta go. It's fascinating. I was able to go 606 00:33:50,759 --> 00:33:52,559 a couple of years ago when I was visiting Jordan, 607 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,720 and I really enjoyed it. So, you know, we've we've 608 00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:59,839 talked about sort of the a medium level, a more 609 00:34:00,079 --> 00:34:02,440 macro level, but you also get micro and I think 610 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,240 my favorite books, the ones that feel to me, at 611 00:34:06,319 --> 00:34:10,039 least in the nonfiction genre, the most literary, and the 612 00:34:10,039 --> 00:34:14,599 ones that are the most page turners, are memoirs where 613 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:17,760 there's vulnerability in the author and where there is a 614 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:20,880 lot of kind of personal conversation. And so I think 615 00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:23,639 we'd be remiss if we didn't talk a little bit 616 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:28,920 about your own personal journey and your decision to use 617 00:34:29,079 --> 00:34:32,599 Eye and to reflect on on that journey in the book. 618 00:34:32,639 --> 00:34:35,119 So tell me about before we even get into kind 619 00:34:35,119 --> 00:34:39,199 of your story, tell me what drove you. Was it 620 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:40,920 a hard decision? Did you know you were going to 621 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:41,920 do that from the beginning? 622 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 3: I would say it was almost the reverse. It was 623 00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,519 it was me writing this I kind of narrative about 624 00:34:49,679 --> 00:34:52,599 my life experiences in this kind of essayistic mode, and 625 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:56,639 realizing that Salt Lakes, you know, was this thing I 626 00:34:56,679 --> 00:35:00,159 was interested in and slowly orienting the book more or 627 00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,360 toward research from being crystialistic. Yeah. 628 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,159 Speaker 1: Oh, I love that. So then you were able to 629 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,679 kind of blend almost these two parallel tracks and bring 630 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:09,320 them together. 631 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 2: Yeah. 632 00:35:10,320 --> 00:35:12,320 Speaker 3: I mean I had been visiting Salt Lakes, I had 633 00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:16,320 been writing about those experiences, but I realized I wanted 634 00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,119 to also research and report about them. 635 00:35:19,679 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: Yeah. So tell me then about sort of the personal 636 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:27,480 narrative that you chose to include in the book, Like why, 637 00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:29,440 how did you decide what you wanted to talk about 638 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:30,760 and how deep you wanted to get? 639 00:35:31,039 --> 00:35:34,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think that was it was always 640 00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:37,679 going to be a book that had a personal narrative 641 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,280 because I was writing it, you know, partially in order 642 00:35:41,320 --> 00:35:45,239 to kind of figure things out for myself. And one 643 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,400 of the things I was trying to understand, or maybe 644 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,800 the principal thing I was trying to understand, was I 645 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,639 wanted a sense of home. I was in my twenties, 646 00:35:56,679 --> 00:36:00,760 and so I felt like a drift and I didn't 647 00:36:00,840 --> 00:36:04,760 understand you know, how do you how do you find 648 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,719 a sense of home in the world, and especially in 649 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,519 a world where I'm constantly bombarded with information about the 650 00:36:10,599 --> 00:36:14,559 horrors of climate change. The degree to which the region 651 00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:16,639 that I have grown up in, which is the American West, 652 00:36:16,679 --> 00:36:20,320 has changed, is going to change further. You know, how 653 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:23,199 am I supposed to feel at home in that kind 654 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:28,599 of of setting situation, And so the the personal narrative 655 00:36:28,639 --> 00:36:33,480 follows me sort of on the on that conceptual journey, 656 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,760 and one of the big kind of elements of that 657 00:36:36,079 --> 00:36:39,119 is is a kind of queer, queer coming of age 658 00:36:39,199 --> 00:36:42,480 journey in which at the beginning of the book, my 659 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,239 early road trips through the Salt Lakes were with my 660 00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,880 college boyfriend, who, as I mentioned, was from California. And 661 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:52,920 then the toward the end of the book, I end 662 00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,360 up getting married to the person who's still my wife, 663 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:59,880 my current wife, who who is from Mexico City, which 664 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:03,119 was built on a salt lake, So that has its 665 00:37:03,159 --> 00:37:07,199 own salt lake narrative there. But I think, you know, 666 00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:11,559 the promotional materials for the book describe it as kind 667 00:37:11,599 --> 00:37:14,639 of like an exploration of my own identity, and I 668 00:37:14,679 --> 00:37:18,280 would say, I don't want to, I don't want necessarily 669 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,239 want to negate that, but I think I see it 670 00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,400 as kind of part of this search of, well, what 671 00:37:26,039 --> 00:37:28,000 is a sense of home in today's world? 672 00:37:28,199 --> 00:37:30,840 Speaker 2: And what kind of life do I want to live. 673 00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: I love that, and I think it also is you know, 674 00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:37,960 not to politicize your own life, because that would be 675 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,280 a pretty fed up thing to do. Like I guess 676 00:37:40,400 --> 00:37:45,039 as I've been, you know, on my own journey and 677 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,840 spending more time with the people that I love, and 678 00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:50,960 I'm just learning more and more that you know, we 679 00:37:51,039 --> 00:37:54,159 have the classic coming coming of age stories, we have 680 00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,360 the classic coming out stories. I think everybody right now 681 00:37:57,440 --> 00:38:01,519 is like real excited about heated rival because you know, 682 00:38:01,599 --> 00:38:04,480 there are all these like really kind of hopeful and 683 00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:07,280 like hard but like, I mean, that's why we love 684 00:38:07,280 --> 00:38:09,480 heated rivery, because it's kind of it's kind of like, oh, 685 00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:13,400 that's how it should have always gone. But but I 686 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,920 think there are more and more, and I don't know, 687 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,880 maybe this isn't a fair thing to say. The exploration 688 00:38:20,119 --> 00:38:24,960 of sort of not just queer identity, but queer societal 689 00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:33,280 I guess, alternate new normativity, I think is so exciting that. 690 00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:35,480 You know, I think for a long time, people had 691 00:38:35,519 --> 00:38:38,000 to fight to be gay, They had to fight to 692 00:38:38,039 --> 00:38:40,039 be for it to be okay to be gay, and 693 00:38:40,039 --> 00:38:42,159 and that's still the case. But we have a new 694 00:38:42,199 --> 00:38:44,159 generation of people who are fighting just to love who 695 00:38:44,159 --> 00:38:48,920 they love, and I think there's something really meaningful in that. 696 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:50,400 Speaker 3: Definitely. 697 00:38:50,599 --> 00:38:50,840 Speaker 2: Yeah. 698 00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 3: I mean I also really enjoyed Heated Traveling and washed 699 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:58,599 the whole thing multiple times. But I think it actually 700 00:38:58,639 --> 00:39:03,519 has really something very cool narratively going on that resonated 701 00:39:03,559 --> 00:39:06,239 with me having written this book where a lot of 702 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:08,880 the queer media that I consume, because I also have 703 00:39:08,960 --> 00:39:12,039 watched all the other like queer coming of age teen 704 00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,800 dramas and stuff, is it often the end point is 705 00:39:17,159 --> 00:39:21,199 making this sort of coming out pronouncement. And I had 706 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:24,519 always watched this media being like, why can't you just 707 00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:27,440 not tell anyone for ten years and just live your 708 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:30,000 life and have a great time, and or like specifically 709 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:33,079 not tell your parents, right, like yeah, the teen dramas, 710 00:39:33,079 --> 00:39:36,559 they're always the season finales coming up to their parents 711 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:37,719 right when they're. 712 00:39:37,559 --> 00:39:40,199 Speaker 1: Like seventeen, and it's like that is just not most 713 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,199 people's experience exactly people, yes, but not most people. 714 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 3: So I loved I loved seeing this like representation on 715 00:39:47,559 --> 00:39:49,800 TV of just like having sex with someone for ten 716 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,000 years and not telling anyone, because I thought that that 717 00:39:53,119 --> 00:39:55,760 is a queer narrative that just exists a lot in 718 00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,719 the world and was not on TV, and so I 719 00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:02,760 really appreciated that. Yeah, I think that, you know, my 720 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:06,800 sort of journey toward queerness had as much to do 721 00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:12,519 with things like going to friends' houses, you know, queer 722 00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:15,239 friends' houses. I describe this in the book and sort 723 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,559 of feeling like this is so different than my like 724 00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,320 you know, newly married, straight friends houses in a way 725 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:26,320 I can't totally put my finger on, like what is that? 726 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:27,679 Speaker 2: What does that mean? 727 00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 3: What is the sort of what am I feeling here? 728 00:40:30,599 --> 00:40:31,960 Speaker 2: And then even. 729 00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 3: As you as I sort of spent time with queer 730 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:35,960 friends that were a little older than me, sort of 731 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,039 being like wow, like the sort of rhythm of life 732 00:40:39,119 --> 00:40:43,719 is different, and the values are slightly different, and and 733 00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:46,960 it just sort of felt like, oh, I feel more 734 00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,599 at home again, back to the sort of where do 735 00:40:49,679 --> 00:40:51,880 I find a home question of like I feel more 736 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,639 at home in this rhythm and this house and this 737 00:40:54,960 --> 00:40:56,719 sort of style of life. 738 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I've definitely found that the older that I get, 739 00:41:01,559 --> 00:41:04,760 and like, whether I'm talking about you know, being on 740 00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:07,960 the apps, you know when that was a thing or 741 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,039 it's still a huge thing, or spending time with other 742 00:41:11,119 --> 00:41:14,119 people or you know, dating one person or dating multiple 743 00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:17,599 people that the more I think that there are, at 744 00:41:17,639 --> 00:41:21,639 least in my experience, that there's a queer identity, the 745 00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:25,239 more there's like a shorthand there, the less there that 746 00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,000 you have to kind of explain yourself, the more kind 747 00:41:29,039 --> 00:41:32,920 of that there's this feeling of acceptance really early on, 748 00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:37,000 and I don't know, it takes me back to my 749 00:41:37,119 --> 00:41:40,199 experiences sometimes when I was very young, and even though 750 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,639 I wasn't lucky enough to, I think find a queer community. 751 00:41:42,679 --> 00:41:44,960 When I was young, growing up in Texas and being Mormon, 752 00:41:45,199 --> 00:41:47,199 I think I always was able to find in sort 753 00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,599 of an alternative community, like a punk rock community, and 754 00:41:50,639 --> 00:41:52,960 it felt more like home because it was like, you 755 00:41:53,119 --> 00:41:55,360 just be you, like we like you, regardless of how 756 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:58,800 weird you are. And I loved that, you know, and 757 00:41:59,039 --> 00:42:00,880 I love that we're living you know world Now. I 758 00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:03,760 think like young people are teaching us an awful lot 759 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:07,360 about about identity and about you know, some people, the 760 00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,280 label is meaningful and it is it is a way 761 00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:16,719 to be able to feel ourselves when we never quite 762 00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,159 could before. But for other people a label is just 763 00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,800 really really constraining and constricting, and what a cool thing 764 00:42:24,679 --> 00:42:27,199 that so many kids now are just like I just 765 00:42:27,280 --> 00:42:28,920 I don't know. I love who I love, I'm attracted 766 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,199 to who I'm attracted to. I don't even think about 767 00:42:31,199 --> 00:42:35,400 those kinds of things. That's beautiful. And so I love 768 00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:38,039 too that the Salt Lakes have been there for you. 769 00:42:38,119 --> 00:42:40,400 I mean, tell me, what do you expect then for 770 00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:43,880 your future? What is your relationship going to be? And God, 771 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:47,840 I hope they're still around, you know, as we grow old. 772 00:42:48,519 --> 00:42:50,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean there's almost this sort of like mystery 773 00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:54,320 element to the book, an unsolved mystery element of will 774 00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,679 we save the lakes? Because there are a number of 775 00:42:57,079 --> 00:43:01,159 options on the table of political changes that would be 776 00:43:01,199 --> 00:43:03,519 really beneficial. And I don't know if you saw this 777 00:43:03,599 --> 00:43:07,400 past weekend Trump was tweeting or not, it's not even tweeting, 778 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,360 it's truth social or whatever this new platform that he 779 00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,920 uses is called, but he was he like posted on 780 00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,719 that platform like make the Great Salt Lake great again. 781 00:43:18,079 --> 00:43:19,800 Trump for some reason has gotten interested in the Great 782 00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,199 Salt Lake. 783 00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:21,840 Speaker 2: So there that. 784 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:24,559 Speaker 1: Almost makes me more worried. Like I'm like, can you 785 00:43:24,639 --> 00:43:26,960 just ignore it? That would be more helpful. I feel like, 786 00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,519 let the adults come up with the policy. 787 00:43:30,559 --> 00:43:32,719 Speaker 3: I know, I'm like, what is going to happen? Where 788 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:36,079 is this going to lead? But yeah, apparently Utah is 789 00:43:36,119 --> 00:43:40,880 going to like provide him with a possible plan. Yeah, 790 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:43,719 so that's you know, there's there just are sort of 791 00:43:44,159 --> 00:43:50,239 multiple political cliffhangers at the moment. There's also the Faler rope, 792 00:43:51,159 --> 00:43:53,119 the Wilson's vower rope, which I write about in the 793 00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:55,039 second to last chapter of the book, which is the 794 00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:58,519 only bird that migrates the entire length of the American 795 00:43:58,519 --> 00:44:01,519 hemisphere only only via salt lakes. So it goes from 796 00:44:01,559 --> 00:44:08,360 Canada to Argentina flying between salt lakes. Recently received the 797 00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:12,199 petitioners received notice that it is going to advance to 798 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:15,599 a full review for being listed as threatened under the 799 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:19,760 Endangered Species Act. And if that happens, that's another thing 800 00:44:19,800 --> 00:44:23,519 that would trigger an enormous amount of protections for salt lakes. 801 00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 2: There are also, you know, really. 802 00:44:26,559 --> 00:44:29,840 Speaker 3: In the weeds changes happening to water law across the 803 00:44:29,840 --> 00:44:33,719 American West, but that could have pretty substantial impacts on 804 00:44:33,800 --> 00:44:37,079 salt lakes. So there's all kinds of stuff that could 805 00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:40,000 happen politically, but we really don't know what is going 806 00:44:40,039 --> 00:44:42,079 to happen, And whether it's going to happen, and so 807 00:44:43,159 --> 00:44:46,119 there you know, yeah, I think it does sort of 808 00:44:46,400 --> 00:44:48,840 leave me still with a bit of the question of 809 00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,320 how you find a home right that these that sort 810 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:59,360 of the country that surrounds you still remains changing absolutely. 811 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: And so for the listen kind of back to the 812 00:45:01,639 --> 00:45:05,440 very first thing I mentioned and your experience before your 813 00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,880 eyes were open to salt lakes. For the listeners who 814 00:45:08,960 --> 00:45:11,039 are like, I've never even thought about a salt lake, 815 00:45:11,079 --> 00:45:12,840 I don't know if I've ever seen one before. I 816 00:45:12,840 --> 00:45:15,280 don't know if I've ever spent any time around one. 817 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:18,679 You know, do you think that there is something to 818 00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,360 be said about encouraging visiting, learning more. Obviously reading the 819 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,599 book you're going to learn a lot more, but having 820 00:45:25,679 --> 00:45:30,239 a personal experience with these these kind of geologic wonders 821 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:34,239 first of all, but also these really rich ecosystems, Like 822 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:36,360 should we all visit of salt lake at least once 823 00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:37,039 in our life? 824 00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:40,079 Speaker 3: I would say absolutely, there's you know, there's probably no 825 00:45:40,159 --> 00:45:41,519 harm that can come from it. 826 00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:48,079 Speaker 2: But I think that the book is about my decade. 827 00:45:47,679 --> 00:45:52,199 Speaker 3: Long exploration to attachment to these lakes, and I want 828 00:45:52,239 --> 00:45:55,880 to not only encourage people to become equally obsessed with 829 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,000 salt lakes, which is totally fine. If that's the outcome, 830 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:01,440 I would be very happy, but also so to sort 831 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,360 of alert people to the fact that there are all 832 00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:10,280 kinds of underappreciated and threatened ecosystems around us that are 833 00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,480 sort of surviving against the odds and that have all 834 00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:18,000 kinds of unusual life forms and geology that you can 835 00:46:18,079 --> 00:46:22,239 just learn about. You can whether whether you're near a 836 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:24,880 salt lake or whether you're in a totally different ecosystem, 837 00:46:25,159 --> 00:46:28,599 you can find something around you that merits the same 838 00:46:28,679 --> 00:46:32,719 amount of interest and affection and that you can learn 839 00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:33,800 similar things from. 840 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:36,920 Speaker 1: Well, I love that, find your own salt lake and 841 00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,039 nerd out on it, and yeah, become obsessed with it, 842 00:46:40,079 --> 00:46:43,960 and maybe you can a have a more fulfilled life 843 00:46:44,039 --> 00:46:46,280 and be like make a big difference for the planet. 844 00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:47,880 But it doesn't have to be as salt lake, whatever 845 00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:50,760 your own version of that is. That's great advice. 846 00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:52,039 Speaker 2: Thank you. 847 00:46:52,519 --> 00:46:55,360 Speaker 1: Well, gosh, I've got to I've got to thank you 848 00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:58,719 so much for being here with us today, for obviously, 849 00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:01,760 you know, putting your heart and soul into this book, 850 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,840 for sharing it with us. It's been a really interesting 851 00:47:06,199 --> 00:47:09,920 conversation and definitely sort of like wetted my appetite to 852 00:47:10,480 --> 00:47:15,559 learn more about this part of our home that you know, 853 00:47:16,360 --> 00:47:19,159 I like you before this, like didn't really think much about. 854 00:47:19,199 --> 00:47:20,480 So thanks so much for being here. 855 00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:22,960 Speaker 3: Well, thanks so much for having me, for the invitation, 856 00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:23,880 and for your interest. 857 00:47:24,559 --> 00:47:28,639 Speaker 1: Absolutely, and everybody listening, thank you for coming back week 858 00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,679 after week. I'm really looking forward to the next time 859 00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,280 we all get together to talk nerdy