WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:12.560 Hello, Kats, kittens, and non binary folks, both with and 2 00:00:12.599 --> 00:00:15.359 without your mittens. We are here on the Superhero Ethics 3 00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:19.239 Podcast continue our conversation with mister Paul Hoppy about Batman 4 00:00:19.440 --> 00:00:20.359 Cape Crusader. 5 00:00:21.160 --> 00:00:22.600 Those who are. 6 00:00:22.559 --> 00:00:24.839 Jumping in just with this episode, we already discussed a 7 00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:27.640 lot of it in Part one, which would be either 8 00:00:27.640 --> 00:00:30.039 the week before or two weeks before this episode. I 9 00:00:30.039 --> 00:00:32.799 would definitely recommend checking that one out first, and we're 10 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:35.399 gonna kind of just pick it right back up. As 11 00:00:35.399 --> 00:00:37.280 we said in that one, you don't have to watched 12 00:00:37.280 --> 00:00:38.840 the show. We're going to try and explain a lot 13 00:00:38.880 --> 00:00:40.880 of it as we go, though certainly I think you'll 14 00:00:41.560 --> 00:00:43.520 I's nothing else. It's only a ten episode show. I 15 00:00:43.520 --> 00:00:46.399 think it's really great to watch, and if you get 16 00:00:46.399 --> 00:00:48.880 access to it either way, we hope you enjoy the conversation. 17 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:52.399 Of course, always send in your feedback. So Paul, let's 18 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:56.240 pick back up. We started to talk about the idea 19 00:00:56.479 --> 00:01:02.920 of when Batman Cape Crusader is set and how this 20 00:01:03.119 --> 00:01:07.159 feels like a little bit of a anachronistic setting in 21 00:01:07.200 --> 00:01:12.239 that it is the esthetics and the technology seem very 22 00:01:12.359 --> 00:01:17.239 much of the like detective noir stories you know, which 23 00:01:17.280 --> 00:01:21.000 could be like twenties to forties or fifties, probably with 24 00:01:21.079 --> 00:01:24.040 a tech being more on the twenties thirties forties side. 25 00:01:24.200 --> 00:01:28.120 The cars are old fashioned, all the phones are rotary dial, 26 00:01:28.239 --> 00:01:32.439 there's no cell phones, there's no beepers, there's no computers. 27 00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:35.280 But you know, the social mores are much more of 28 00:01:35.319 --> 00:01:36.480 like what we think of today. 29 00:01:37.040 --> 00:01:39.719 And we talked about want we like that, And I 30 00:01:39.799 --> 00:01:42.359 want to extend that conversation a little further to say, 31 00:01:42.439 --> 00:01:47.000 for you, does it feel like Batman should be set 32 00:01:47.079 --> 00:01:49.959 in a certain time period or does thatman work in 33 00:01:50.000 --> 00:01:50.760 all times? 34 00:01:51.400 --> 00:01:55.280 I wouldn't say should, but I do think Batman works 35 00:01:55.319 --> 00:01:58.200 particularly well in a particular time period. Like I think 36 00:01:58.319 --> 00:02:03.200 modern day Batman's fine. I think futuristic neo Gotham Batman 37 00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:08.039 is awesome. I think Gotham by Gaslight is a great 38 00:02:08.159 --> 00:02:12.479 kind of steampunk eighteen hundred's Batman. But I do think 39 00:02:12.520 --> 00:02:18.560 that the film Noir Batman is, if not the best Batman. 40 00:02:18.639 --> 00:02:21.280 You know, it's the classic Batman, and there's something that 41 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:25.759 works really well, partially because of just the look and feel, 42 00:02:25.879 --> 00:02:28.280 but also in terms of technology. I think a lower 43 00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:32.719 technology Batman allows like there's this idea of Batman being 44 00:02:32.759 --> 00:02:36.360 a little more technologically advanced than the people around him, right, 45 00:02:36.439 --> 00:02:39.120 and like the whole utility belt and you know where 46 00:02:39.120 --> 00:02:41.240 it is, where is you get all these wonderful toys 47 00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:45.360 kind of aspect, And I think the further technology advance 48 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:47.960 is kind of the harder it is to pull that off, 49 00:02:48.039 --> 00:02:50.479 or kind of the further you have to go with it, right, 50 00:02:50.759 --> 00:02:56.120 But also just I think I think it just looks cool. 51 00:02:56.159 --> 00:02:58.639 You know, it's it's film noir, and we don't get 52 00:02:58.680 --> 00:03:01.360 a ton of that anymore. That's kind of Batman's origin. 53 00:03:01.400 --> 00:03:08.159 That's certainly the animated series look right. And as far 54 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:13.599 as this series goes, you know, they really wanted to 55 00:03:13.840 --> 00:03:16.680 use some of those stories from the animated series without 56 00:03:16.719 --> 00:03:19.639 it being a literal continuation. So I think it makes 57 00:03:19.680 --> 00:03:23.000 sense that they said it in that same vague time 58 00:03:23.080 --> 00:03:26.639 period that isn't a real place in our world. 59 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:30.520 I think you're really right about the technology because when 60 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:32.080 I was thinking more about this, one thing you and 61 00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:33.960 I have said that we liked about both this show 62 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:38.319 and the Matt Reeves movie The Batman with Robert Pattinson, 63 00:03:38.360 --> 00:03:40.360 as well as also the Batman and the animated series 64 00:03:41.039 --> 00:03:43.439 is the idea of Batman is detective and. 65 00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:45.960 A lot of it. Yeah, I think. 66 00:03:45.840 --> 00:03:50.000 Both are sort of iconography of the detective is very 67 00:03:50.080 --> 00:03:53.319 much the gum shoe nineteen forties kind of thing, which 68 00:03:53.400 --> 00:03:55.240 you know, obviously he's not wearing a trench coat and 69 00:03:55.280 --> 00:04:00.960 the like, but it's still a similar idea. Also as 70 00:04:01.000 --> 00:04:05.560 it becomes more and more technologically focused, you know, like CSI, 71 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:08.719 Batman is not really what I want to watch. One 72 00:04:08.719 --> 00:04:11.800 thing I think is really interesting about Batman is that 73 00:04:13.120 --> 00:04:15.560 he does have good tech, and he is often able 74 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.920 to like, you know, lift a fingerprint that no one 75 00:04:17.920 --> 00:04:20.319 else could get, or that kind of like technological stuff 76 00:04:20.319 --> 00:04:23.839 where sometimes he's able to you know, quite literally build 77 00:04:23.920 --> 00:04:28.079 technology to learn something about a bullet. I think that's 78 00:04:28.079 --> 00:04:31.480 in the Batman movie that you know, other people can't 79 00:04:31.519 --> 00:04:34.600 figure out. But I feel like what makes him such 80 00:04:34.639 --> 00:04:37.519 a good detective is his ability to deduce things, to 81 00:04:38.800 --> 00:04:41.680 look at fact A and look at fact B and 82 00:04:41.720 --> 00:04:44.439 then read something in the newspaper and put it all 83 00:04:44.480 --> 00:04:46.920 together to come up with a connection that no one. 84 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:47.959 Else would see. 85 00:04:48.120 --> 00:04:53.480 And it's not harder to do that in the technological age. Well, 86 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:56.399 the say the again, and I think that it's harder 87 00:04:56.399 --> 00:04:59.879 to do in the technological age, a because watching people 88 00:04:59.879 --> 00:05:02.439 do the research on a computer just isn't always that interesting, 89 00:05:02.439 --> 00:05:04.639 but also because I think this is kind of the 90 00:05:04.720 --> 00:05:08.480 Zack Snyder direction. The more you make him high tech, 91 00:05:08.600 --> 00:05:11.480 the more you get him into high tech fighting technology. 92 00:05:12.040 --> 00:05:14.399 And I think there's just such a then that kind 93 00:05:14.439 --> 00:05:18.040 of leads into the rock'am sock and robots idea of 94 00:05:19.319 --> 00:05:22.319 big superhero shows where it's all about these incredible CGI 95 00:05:22.480 --> 00:05:24.879 tech And I think that's a fun and I think 96 00:05:24.879 --> 00:05:27.399 you can have some of that in the movies, but 97 00:05:27.439 --> 00:05:30.480 I think when it's modern day, there's just so much 98 00:05:30.480 --> 00:05:32.480 of that now that it's hard to make Batman stand out. 99 00:05:34.279 --> 00:05:36.639 Yeah, And it's the sort of thing where I feel 100 00:05:36.680 --> 00:05:39.759 it's not impossible, right, I mean, I think Matt Reeves 101 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:42.759 showed pretty clearly like you can still do it like that. 102 00:05:42.800 --> 00:05:48.920 Gotham isn't some old age Gotham, right, I mean, Gotham 103 00:05:48.920 --> 00:05:53.279 from The Batman is modern day. But there's this temptation 104 00:05:53.800 --> 00:05:57.000 I think to like, the more access you have to 105 00:05:57.079 --> 00:06:00.480 special effects, the harder it is to chew not to 106 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:04.839 use them, or to choose to go, you know, a 107 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:06.800 clever route, you know, it's to me, it's like the 108 00:06:06.839 --> 00:06:10.800 difference between the Jason Bourne movies and the James Bond movies, 109 00:06:10.839 --> 00:06:15.720 where Bond solves so many problems through technology that Q 110 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:18.439 gave him, right, He's got some device that will solve 111 00:06:18.480 --> 00:06:22.199 the problem, whereas in the Boorn movies, Bourne has to 112 00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:25.920 come up with some clever way of using like a 113 00:06:25.959 --> 00:06:29.959 newspaper or like ripping a map off the wall to know, 114 00:06:30.639 --> 00:06:35.680 you know where to go, and that's harder for the writer, right, 115 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:38.560 It's like easier to just say like, oh, yeah, the 116 00:06:38.680 --> 00:06:41.480 protagonist has a thing that works and now they can 117 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:44.480 figure something out the same way it's like, you know, 118 00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.680 oh they do some CSI thing, and of course there's 119 00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:49.399 some amount of research that goes into it. I don't 120 00:06:49.399 --> 00:06:54.759 want to denegrate the writing of you know, various various 121 00:06:54.800 --> 00:06:58.199 series like like Bones or CSI or whatever. I think 122 00:06:58.240 --> 00:07:00.720 you can still have great writing with that. I just 123 00:07:00.920 --> 00:07:04.720 think there can be a temptation to just rely on 124 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:07.399 your tech, to rely on your special effects, the same 125 00:07:07.399 --> 00:07:11.800 way you rarely get great fight choreography when you have 126 00:07:12.120 --> 00:07:15.519 big effects movies, right, when you have a big effects budget. 127 00:07:16.079 --> 00:07:19.759 Whereas you know with with action movies, especially made in 128 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:24.399 Hong Kong and Thailand and places where the effects budget 129 00:07:24.519 --> 00:07:28.399 isn't so large, Like there's a level of creativity and 130 00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.720 innovation required in order to do something cool, and of 131 00:07:31.759 --> 00:07:34.160 course you can combine those things, right, I mean, I 132 00:07:34.160 --> 00:07:36.279 think we saw in like Shuan Chi that you could 133 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:39.480 take a big Hollywood movie and still have great creative, 134 00:07:39.600 --> 00:07:45.720 interesting action in a practical sense. But that it's you know, 135 00:07:45.759 --> 00:07:48.319 it's hard not to then just be like, oh, we're 136 00:07:48.360 --> 00:07:51.399 just going to rely on Batman's gadgets on you know, 137 00:07:51.560 --> 00:07:54.360 some kind of he's just got something as utility belt 138 00:07:54.360 --> 00:07:56.480 to bail him out, as opposed to like, no, let's 139 00:07:56.560 --> 00:07:59.879 make him think of something, you know, really really clever, 140 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:03.480 like I think in Mad Love, which is a story 141 00:08:03.519 --> 00:08:06.079 we referenced in the bonus content, just five dollars a 142 00:08:06.079 --> 00:08:08.600 month to become a member and listen to all of that. 143 00:08:08.920 --> 00:08:11.879 But you know, there's there's a thing where it's like, 144 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.439 you know, I if I recall Batman doesn't escape through 145 00:08:18.959 --> 00:08:22.720 through some gadget, I think he escapes through some psychology 146 00:08:22.839 --> 00:08:25.240 and and you know, the same goes in in one 147 00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:28.759 of the episodes in in Justice League where he's dealing 148 00:08:28.800 --> 00:08:34.080 with Joker and Harley Quinn and and so I I 149 00:08:34.240 --> 00:08:39.759 appreciate when you know, the writers basically force themselves to 150 00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:43.440 be a little more clever, force themselves to be a 151 00:08:43.440 --> 00:08:46.480 little more creative instead of being able to kind of 152 00:08:46.519 --> 00:08:50.960 rely on on, you know, spi fi type stuff basically, 153 00:08:51.639 --> 00:08:51.919 like I. 154 00:08:51.919 --> 00:08:54.799 Remember Robert Downey Junior once making a comment about how 155 00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:56.480 he thought he had it best out of all the 156 00:08:56.639 --> 00:08:58.960 X Men because, unlike most of the other actors, he 157 00:08:59.000 --> 00:09:00.679 never had to do any kind of fight training or 158 00:09:00.720 --> 00:09:03.279 choreography because it was always gonna be the cgi of 159 00:09:03.320 --> 00:09:06.840 the suit. And don't get me wrong, I love the 160 00:09:06.919 --> 00:09:10.279 Iron Man movies, but they're doing something very fundamentally different, 161 00:09:10.600 --> 00:09:13.840 and yes, I think that that really works the technology here. 162 00:09:15.320 --> 00:09:17.440 I think another thing, and you and I have talked 163 00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:19.480 about this back and forth. I don't think we completely agree, 164 00:09:19.559 --> 00:09:23.679 but have some similar not pret judged. Another thing I 165 00:09:23.720 --> 00:09:26.879 think that's very dependent on the time it is set, 166 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:30.799 is that I think it goes for a lot of stories. 167 00:09:30.799 --> 00:09:36.519 But Batman, especially Batman was created at a time when 168 00:09:39.240 --> 00:09:43.320 there was there's always been some level of social awareness 169 00:09:43.399 --> 00:09:47.039 that the rich are screwing the poor, and because of that, 170 00:09:47.120 --> 00:09:50.279 some level of critique or you know, the rich guys 171 00:09:50.399 --> 00:09:54.519 are all against us, But I think at that time 172 00:09:54.639 --> 00:09:56.720 there was still the sense of like, well, but the 173 00:09:56.799 --> 00:09:59.519 rich people give back, you know, they start the universities 174 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.559 and the live areas and the arts, and they donate 175 00:10:02.600 --> 00:10:06.440 lots of things like that. And like you might also 176 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:08.679 say that on the flip side, that at this particular 177 00:10:08.720 --> 00:10:11.559 moment in time, we have a very high level of 178 00:10:11.639 --> 00:10:15.399 critique of billionaires and a very high level of eat 179 00:10:15.440 --> 00:10:18.600 the rich kind of sentiments, and the idea of like, oh, 180 00:10:18.639 --> 00:10:20.559 they're just doing that as the tax write off and 181 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:24.480 to cover up. And like, I've definitely heard it in 182 00:10:24.519 --> 00:10:28.120 the discourse that when I was first reading about Batman, 183 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.200 the idea that a person who had all this money 184 00:10:31.639 --> 00:10:34.679 would then decide to use his money to help other 185 00:10:34.759 --> 00:10:36.879 people by becoming a crime fighter, I was like, Yeah, 186 00:10:36.919 --> 00:10:40.120 that's fantastic. And then in more recent years people have 187 00:10:40.159 --> 00:10:42.440 started bringing up, well, Okay, if he wants to fight crime, 188 00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:44.840 why doesn't he fight the social Why doesn't he fund 189 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:48.039 the social programs instead that help to prevent crime instead 190 00:10:48.039 --> 00:10:49.639 of beating up poor people? And like there's all of 191 00:10:49.679 --> 00:10:54.759 this analysis of him through our current economic understanding, some 192 00:10:54.840 --> 00:10:56.440 of which I think is warranted, some of which I 193 00:10:56.480 --> 00:11:00.879 think is very overly simplistic. But like, for example, in 194 00:11:00.919 --> 00:11:03.879 both the Christopher Nolan and the Matt Reeves movie, I 195 00:11:03.960 --> 00:11:05.960 felt like they had to be a little bit more 196 00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:10.000 aware of just because he's a bill like, we have 197 00:11:10.039 --> 00:11:12.399 to go a little further than just saying he's a 198 00:11:12.399 --> 00:11:16.080 billionaire who's using his money to fight crime, and that 199 00:11:16.399 --> 00:11:18.000 even today, you know, like I know a lot of 200 00:11:18.000 --> 00:11:20.080 people who just had no interest in the Batman movie 201 00:11:20.120 --> 00:11:22.879 or the Batman character because in their perspective, it's like, oh, 202 00:11:22.919 --> 00:11:24.200 I don't want to glorify a billionaire. 203 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:25.320 Billionaires are all terrible. 204 00:11:25.919 --> 00:11:29.399 And again that there's a whole economics argument there that 205 00:11:29.440 --> 00:11:31.440 I have a lot of sympathy for, but I think 206 00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:35.000 can be oversimplified. But it feels to me like that 207 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:37.919 by putting it in a time period that's more like this, 208 00:11:38.840 --> 00:11:41.360 you avoid a lot of that the kind of Batman. 209 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:44.399 Here's maybe the best way to say it, like TLDR. 210 00:11:44.480 --> 00:11:47.039 But like you know, Batman was written at a time 211 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:50.559 when we have a very different understanding of the super 212 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.080 wealthy than we do today, and that if you're going 213 00:11:54.159 --> 00:11:56.600 to take him out of those time periods, you have 214 00:11:56.639 --> 00:11:58.480 to have some level of accounting for that or also 215 00:11:58.559 --> 00:11:59.159 just doesn't work. 216 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:04.200 Yeah, I think so, I'm not convinced that that's as 217 00:12:04.320 --> 00:12:08.679 true as you think it is in terms of what 218 00:12:08.759 --> 00:12:13.519 the overall kind of public opinion was around when Batman 219 00:12:13.639 --> 00:12:17.679 was created. I know, sometime in the decade or decades 220 00:12:17.720 --> 00:12:21.440 before that, there was a heavy amount of resentment towards 221 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:24.679 you know, the wealthy, like especially you know, it's like 222 00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.159 coming out of the depression and everything, right, and there's 223 00:12:28.279 --> 00:12:30.720 you know, the term robber barons is not is not 224 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:34.480 a new term, right, But I can't speak to that 225 00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:36.759 too much, And so I'm not I'm not saying you're wrong. 226 00:12:36.840 --> 00:12:39.840 I'm saying that doesn't match quite my understanding of how 227 00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:42.559 people were thinking at different points in time. But also 228 00:12:42.720 --> 00:12:43.360 I wasn't there. 229 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:47.399 So just to add a little context at from the little, yes, 230 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:49.159 sure study I've done of it, my understanding is like 231 00:12:49.480 --> 00:12:53.360 among the working class, among the poor, that would often 232 00:12:53.399 --> 00:12:55.840 be the thought, right, but there was such an effort 233 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:58.200 of oh, that's just communist thinking to write it all. 234 00:12:58.240 --> 00:13:01.279 But certainly that by the fifties there's none of that, 235 00:13:01.399 --> 00:13:02.200 you know, that's allowed. 236 00:13:02.360 --> 00:13:05.200 Yeah, of course, Yeah, So I guess what I would say, 237 00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:07.399 is I feel like from the fifties through especially like 238 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.879 the eighties, ye, which were like the height of the 239 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:14.120 greed is good idea, right, And then maybe with this 240 00:13:14.240 --> 00:13:16.799 being a little less true in like the sixties, like 241 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:19.519 the late sixties, early seventies right where there was more, 242 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:25.039 you know, the stronger counterculture. I think you know that 243 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:28.960 that that was more true in that time rather than 244 00:13:29.000 --> 00:13:32.039 like really early like nineteen thirty nine right or eight 245 00:13:32.320 --> 00:13:36.200 right when Batman was created. But but I do think 246 00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:39.600 like there is something about when you're telling a story 247 00:13:39.600 --> 00:13:43.039 that takes place now. It's even if it's this Gotham 248 00:13:43.039 --> 00:13:46.440 that doesn't exist in our world right where it's it's 249 00:13:46.440 --> 00:13:49.320 a different timeline from the one we live in. It's 250 00:13:49.320 --> 00:13:51.799 a fictional universe. Even if there is a New York 251 00:13:51.840 --> 00:13:54.440 in Washington, d C. And these you know, places that 252 00:13:54.480 --> 00:13:58.679 we have. I do think it makes it harder to 253 00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:02.799 ignore what, you know, what you're talking about. Whereas here 254 00:14:02.840 --> 00:14:06.480 when you do put something in a you know, in 255 00:14:06.559 --> 00:14:10.240 sort of a film noir setting, I think it does 256 00:14:10.279 --> 00:14:13.799 give you more leeway, especially when you kind of say, Okay, 257 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:17.440 this is a film noir setting, and we're going to 258 00:14:17.559 --> 00:14:20.600 talk about things that we might want to talk about 259 00:14:20.639 --> 00:14:24.320 now and that people may have been talking about then 260 00:14:24.399 --> 00:14:27.360 as well. But also we're not going to act like 261 00:14:27.960 --> 00:14:31.759 the social mores of the time were what they are 262 00:14:31.799 --> 00:14:35.000 here in our world that that were in our fictional world, right, 263 00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:39.240 Like like we discussed with you know, race and gender 264 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:44.120 and sexuality and and that you know, there's some there's 265 00:14:44.159 --> 00:14:52.600 certainly some you know, patronizing misogyny, but like not not 266 00:14:53.279 --> 00:14:55.519 it doesn't feel like the same kind that you'd expect 267 00:14:55.639 --> 00:14:57.159 like in a in a show that was just like 268 00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.159 straight up set in the forties, right or thirties or whatever. 269 00:15:02.039 --> 00:15:05.639 So I think, you know, by doing that, by setting 270 00:15:05.720 --> 00:15:07.960 that all up that way, they kind of gave themselves 271 00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:11.120 like a you know, we can kind of just tell 272 00:15:11.159 --> 00:15:14.240 the story we want to tell without necessarily having to 273 00:15:14.279 --> 00:15:17.399 address this thing that is being addressed one way or 274 00:15:17.440 --> 00:15:22.679 another in the live action films, and and you know, 275 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:26.600 just to address the overall argument. I do have a 276 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:28.960 lot of sympathy for it. I think it's super reductive. 277 00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:35.600 And I also have issues with people critiquing movies that 278 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:39.799 they don't want to see, you know, like which you know, 279 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:42.480 there's movies that I don't want to see that I'm like, 280 00:15:42.639 --> 00:15:45.960 I don't think I'm gonna like that. I feel like 281 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.960 I don't want to watch that. But also, you know, 282 00:15:49.120 --> 00:15:51.240 and I mean this is of course you know. I 283 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:55.240 have literally gone on here even our last episode that 284 00:15:55.240 --> 00:15:57.799 we recorded before Batman, and talked about a show that 285 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.159 I didn't see, but not in terms of oh, I 286 00:16:00.200 --> 00:16:02.720 think that this show is bad because such a whatever. 287 00:16:02.799 --> 00:16:06.159 It's just like, you know, I think when you don't 288 00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:08.080 watch something, you have to understand that you haven't watched 289 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:10.000 it and you don't have the full story or earth. 290 00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:11.519 And I think that was kind of like what we're 291 00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:12.960 trying to do with a lot of these episodes, is 292 00:16:13.840 --> 00:16:18.879 that was, Hey, this question, this show raises this question, 293 00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:21.240 and I'm curious if I just summarize it for you 294 00:16:21.679 --> 00:16:24.360 what you think of the question, right, because I do 295 00:16:24.399 --> 00:16:28.320 think sometimes we sort of can get like, I like 296 00:16:28.399 --> 00:16:30.840 those deeper questions and when people want to imput on 297 00:16:30.919 --> 00:16:33.840 the exact details of the show in order to kind 298 00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:35.600 of say, well, that answers the questions. 299 00:16:35.320 --> 00:16:37.960 Like well, but it's asking us to ask this larger question. 300 00:16:38.039 --> 00:16:39.360 That's what you're right, go But. 301 00:16:39.919 --> 00:16:42.799 Yeah, which going back to the origins of this podcast, 302 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:46.120 like the idea of like, you know, Civil War avengers 303 00:16:46.159 --> 00:16:48.279 not X men. By the way, there's just a look 304 00:16:48.360 --> 00:16:49.960 when when you're talking about Tony. 305 00:16:50.159 --> 00:16:54.519 But but I'm sure he does it's meant at some point, 306 00:16:54.559 --> 00:16:55.919 but yes, Avengers. 307 00:16:55.879 --> 00:16:58.480 Yes, sure, sure, probably, I mean, except it's not immune. 308 00:16:58.799 --> 00:17:03.759 But the well maybe Robert Downey Junior is in some 309 00:17:04.000 --> 00:17:09.160 some of these other roles, but the you know, the 310 00:17:09.200 --> 00:17:12.359 basic question, like you really wanted to discuss the question 311 00:17:12.599 --> 00:17:15.319 of like whether there should be this oversight, right, And 312 00:17:15.359 --> 00:17:18.319 I was like, but in the exact story, you know, 313 00:17:18.440 --> 00:17:20.839 it's like it doesn't actually make the same sense in 314 00:17:20.880 --> 00:17:22.920 the story. So I do think a lot of times 315 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.119 it is like I believe in being concrete and being 316 00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:31.160 like this is how this issue plays out in this 317 00:17:31.559 --> 00:17:35.000 context and being very specific about that, because I don't 318 00:17:35.000 --> 00:17:40.559 think that super broad guidelines or ideas are that useful. 319 00:17:40.720 --> 00:17:43.000 I think they can be a useful starting place as 320 00:17:43.039 --> 00:17:47.440 long as we maintain the flexibility to be like, oh wait, 321 00:17:47.799 --> 00:17:51.279 that ghost just real. You know, Now let me adjust 322 00:17:51.319 --> 00:17:54.440 my worldview and take this new information into account when 323 00:17:54.440 --> 00:17:55.319 I'm making decisions. 324 00:17:55.519 --> 00:17:58.440 Yeah, yeah, certainly in that case, like when I say 325 00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:04.720 I'm pem Tony, I'm that the Captain America idea of 326 00:18:04.960 --> 00:18:07.599 I know best and so only I should be able 327 00:18:07.680 --> 00:18:10.720 to decide how I use my power to enforce my 328 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:16.880 idea of justice that terrifies me. And so when Tony 329 00:18:16.960 --> 00:18:19.960 says we need some kind of oversight, I'm like, yes, 330 00:18:20.079 --> 00:18:23.440 you're exactly right. When he then says that Ross has 331 00:18:23.440 --> 00:18:26.000 come up with this perfect kind of oversight, I'm like, no, no, 332 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:27.200 that like. 333 00:18:27.519 --> 00:18:30.480 Not that guy. That guy needs his own over sight. 334 00:18:30.720 --> 00:18:31.799 And we're kind of a changement. 335 00:18:31.839 --> 00:18:33.160 But this is actually I think, really this is kind 336 00:18:33.160 --> 00:18:34.799 of like we're talking about how we talk about things 337 00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:36.359 in a way that think is really relevant to stuff. 338 00:18:38.079 --> 00:18:40.119 I think that there is, like I level the way 339 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:44.599 you talk about this, because I often think there'll be 340 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:50.519 kind of an intellectual dishonesty of someone proposes a general 341 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:55.920 idea and then someone points to one specific very bad 342 00:18:56.000 --> 00:19:00.519 application of the idea and says, therefore the idea is bad, yeah, 343 00:19:00.519 --> 00:19:02.359 you know, or the reverse and says, hey, look it 344 00:19:02.440 --> 00:19:04.279 worked into one specific case, you know, And I think 345 00:19:04.279 --> 00:19:08.000 that that's yeah, yeah, it's why I think I like 346 00:19:08.079 --> 00:19:10.359 the fact that we talked to this last episode that 347 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:13.799 there are so many Batman's because the flip side is 348 00:19:13.839 --> 00:19:18.200 we really only have one one, Luke Skywalker kind of 349 00:19:18.279 --> 00:19:20.799 too if you take in the legends or the legends 350 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:22.519 might make it up to like four or five or six. 351 00:19:23.359 --> 00:19:25.519 We have one on screen, right, Yeah, there's only one 352 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:29.640 kind of official, whereas like, yeah, there's no battle about 353 00:19:29.720 --> 00:19:33.160 you know, Christopher Nolans is part of a canon, and 354 00:19:33.160 --> 00:19:35.880 Matt Reeves is part of a canon, and Batflex by 355 00:19:35.960 --> 00:19:38.640 Zack Snyder is just as much a part of a canon. 356 00:19:38.759 --> 00:19:41.759 And that we get to kind of pick and choose, 357 00:19:42.519 --> 00:19:44.319 as we said to'd be like, yeah, I don't I 358 00:19:44.359 --> 00:19:46.880 don't think people are wrong or bad for liking Ben 359 00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:51.279 Affleck's version. It does not speak to what I like 360 00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:52.759 about the character of Batman. 361 00:19:54.160 --> 00:19:57.799 Yeah, exactly. And so having that, you know, I think 362 00:19:57.839 --> 00:20:00.319 there are Batman stories where you might like at it 363 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:02.400 and go like, oh, this seems like a very tar 364 00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:07.599 Ba dollars, right, And then there's other ones we might 365 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:09.720 look at and be like, well, you know, he actually 366 00:20:09.799 --> 00:20:12.359 is spending most of his money or trying to spend 367 00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:15.359 a lot of his money on social programs, you know, 368 00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:17.880 like that's that's not not a thing. And you can 369 00:20:17.880 --> 00:20:20.559 say like, well, there shouldn't be any billionaires like every 370 00:20:20.559 --> 00:20:23.880 billionaire's apologies failure are fine, but like he's not necessarily 371 00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:25.720 going to single handedly change the tax go, like, do 372 00:20:25.759 --> 00:20:28.240 you want Batman to be a politician? Like should Bruce 373 00:20:28.240 --> 00:20:32.000 Wayne run for offs? Like maybe, like maybe he could 374 00:20:32.000 --> 00:20:35.799 get elected and like then actually enacts sweeping social change, 375 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:38.119 although you might not like the sweeping social change that 376 00:20:38.359 --> 00:20:40.160 specifically this one guy would want to do. 377 00:20:40.319 --> 00:20:42.920 You know, I tend to think that billionaires running for 378 00:20:42.960 --> 00:20:45.039 office has not been a very good thing in the 379 00:20:45.119 --> 00:20:45.880 United States, right. 380 00:20:46.319 --> 00:20:50.039 Exactly exactly, like i'd pick him over Lex Luthor. Yeah, 381 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.960 you know, but like that doesn't you know, even though 382 00:20:52.960 --> 00:20:56.559 Bloomberg was not as bad as the other guy, Like 383 00:20:56.599 --> 00:20:59.519 I was still like, how about not him? How about 384 00:20:59.559 --> 00:21:00.480 not either of them? 385 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:04.119 You know? So no, I think it's very true. So 386 00:21:04.400 --> 00:21:05.359 let's shift to. 387 00:21:05.319 --> 00:21:09.279 Another thing, the Arthur Dent of it all, the Harvey Dent. 388 00:21:09.400 --> 00:21:13.160 I keep saying, Arthur Dent, I'm very sorry, which you 389 00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.599 phrased in our notes as the other side of the 390 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:16.559 Harvey Dent coin. 391 00:21:17.960 --> 00:21:19.119 Because as we said, and. 392 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:22.839 This is a very different version of the Harvey Dent 393 00:21:22.920 --> 00:21:27.240 story than we've often gotten and and in fairness, we 394 00:21:27.240 --> 00:21:29.400 haven't gotten it that much. It just feels like that 395 00:21:29.480 --> 00:21:31.839 to me, I think because it is probably the part 396 00:21:31.880 --> 00:21:35.759 of the Dark Knight's story, the triangle between Dent and 397 00:21:35.880 --> 00:21:39.599 Batman and Gordon, that I'm most fascinated by. But tell 398 00:21:39.640 --> 00:21:41.319 us a bit about this version of Dent and how 399 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:43.519 it feels different to you than other versions we've gotten. 400 00:21:44.359 --> 00:21:46.960 Right, So, you know, speaking of running for office, we 401 00:21:47.039 --> 00:21:53.119