1 00:00:22,679 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: And hello, how are you welcome to the Big Podcast 2 00:00:26,199 --> 00:00:30,519 on this on this Monday, Today's night, the ninth day 3 00:00:30,559 --> 00:00:34,439 of Febebruary, year of our Over, twenty twenty six. My 4 00:00:34,520 --> 00:00:39,679 name is Tom Sullivan. And uh, well, did you like 5 00:00:39,759 --> 00:00:44,039 the Super Bowl? We got a little I mean, I 6 00:00:44,039 --> 00:00:49,159 don't know. I I'm from Seattle, so I was rooting 7 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,679 for Seattle. But I just I thought the game was 8 00:00:52,719 --> 00:00:56,560 just okay, I mean it was. It was asking expect 9 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,600 did the two really good defensive teams going against each 10 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,600 other doesn't make for a very exciting game. But it 11 00:01:03,679 --> 00:01:09,400 was clear, clear, clear, clear Seattle was was dominating the Patriots. 12 00:01:09,480 --> 00:01:13,760 So congratulations to Seattle. As far as far as Bad 13 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:20,799 Bunny goes, I don't know what to say. I wasn't 14 00:01:20,840 --> 00:01:24,159 impressed either. I'm not going to put it down. I'm 15 00:01:24,159 --> 00:01:26,959 not going to praise it. Some of the some of 16 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:30,599 the adjectives being used about all the exciting show that 17 00:01:31,239 --> 00:01:35,120 it wasn't exciting. I thought it was. I didn't get it. 18 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:37,519 Let me put it. Maybe it's maybe I'm just out 19 00:01:37,560 --> 00:01:44,200 of the wrong generation on that, but I so they 20 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,159 so they so they had a Lady Gaga. I like 21 00:01:50,239 --> 00:01:53,760 Ricky Martin was part of that. But but in any case, 22 00:01:53,920 --> 00:01:57,799 I I don't speak Spanish, so I kind of felt 23 00:01:57,879 --> 00:02:02,599 like okay. And as far as the Latin beat, the 24 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,519 Latin music, I love Latin music. It makes you want 25 00:02:06,519 --> 00:02:08,960 to get up and dance. No, that did not. It 26 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:15,639 just it just did not. So let's see real quick numbers. 27 00:02:16,879 --> 00:02:21,400 The preliminary number show one hundred twenty seven million people 28 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:27,199 tuned in. That makes it the number one most watched 29 00:02:27,319 --> 00:02:32,639 television broadcast is every year. Used to be the Oscars 30 00:02:32,919 --> 00:02:35,120 and the Super Bowl were kind of neck and neck. 31 00:02:35,439 --> 00:02:37,520 The Oscars don't get what they used to get, so 32 00:02:37,680 --> 00:02:41,400 super Bowl one hundred twenty seven, they're same a range 33 00:02:41,439 --> 00:02:44,240 from one hundred twenty seven to one hundred and thirty 34 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,199 million viewers in the United States, and there were more 35 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,919 that were streaming from outside the United States, so it'll 36 00:02:50,960 --> 00:02:56,199 break the previous record from the previous year. The Bad 37 00:02:56,240 --> 00:03:00,680 Bunny shows estimated to have drawn eve and more people 38 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:03,159 tuned in for that one hundred and forty two million, 39 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:09,120 so it was the stadium was full. Seventy thousand tickets 40 00:03:09,159 --> 00:03:14,719 sold for the game twenty nine to thirteen, Seattle over 41 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:19,560 New England, OH at TPUSA, Turning Point USA, they had 42 00:03:19,599 --> 00:03:24,319 their alternative halftime show. Kid Rock was kind of running 43 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,159 that whole operation, and they I've seen two different reports, 44 00:03:28,199 --> 00:03:31,680 one from from Turning Point. He's saying that they had 45 00:03:31,719 --> 00:03:36,520 six million streams and another one said they had twenty 46 00:03:36,639 --> 00:03:41,599 five million on social media. So six million or twenty 47 00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,400 five million or even add them together versus one hundred 48 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:53,240 and what did they say for one hundred forty two million? So, 49 00:03:53,759 --> 00:03:56,800 you know, good for Turning Point. They got some people. 50 00:03:57,360 --> 00:03:59,400 I was wordying about it. It sounded like they were kind 51 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:04,919 of pushing, kind of hustling, you know, join now, join now. 52 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:10,039 But so anyway, that's that's it for another year. I 53 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,039 don't know what for football fans, what do you do 54 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:22,319 this next weekend? Gotta wait meantime Tonight five o'clock Mountain 55 00:04:22,399 --> 00:04:27,279 time at seven o'clock Eastern, four o'clock Pacific is the 56 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:34,120 deadline in the ransom note for Nancy Guthrie, and everybody 57 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:37,439 says it's going to be more ominous. I don't know what, 58 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:45,800 but they want six million dollars in bitcoin. And so 59 00:04:45,879 --> 00:04:48,439 I picked up the phone and called the guy that 60 00:04:48,639 --> 00:04:55,720 I know knows everything about technology, Ira Victor. He is 61 00:04:56,079 --> 00:05:01,319 the chief forensic analyst at Discovery ten Technition dot com 62 00:05:01,879 --> 00:05:07,519 and that's he's that's his business's Internet security. So I 63 00:05:07,639 --> 00:05:09,480 called him up and I asked him, I said, what 64 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,079 do you make of this demand that the ransom be 65 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:17,639 paid in bitcoin? And can it be followed? And how 66 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:21,639 do people get the money out of the wallet that 67 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,759 it's sent to. So here it's the conversation I had 68 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:28,040 just a few hours ago with Ira Victor, how we're 69 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:32,839 going to pay this this ransom with bitcoin? What do 70 00:05:32,879 --> 00:05:35,720 you make of that whole thing? Am I? I have? 71 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,399 Nobody knows the answer to is this really what's going with? 72 00:05:39,519 --> 00:05:43,480 Nobody knows what's going on. But when I started seeing 73 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:47,759 the bitcoin, and I started hearing some people talking about, 74 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,240 well you can do it via bitcoin, but bitcoin uses 75 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,720 blockchain and so therefore you can follow it and you 76 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,879 can discuss that. You know, they'll never get away with it. 77 00:05:56,920 --> 00:05:59,120 And other people are saying no, no, no, no no. 78 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:00,839 They they split it up and send it off in 79 00:06:00,879 --> 00:06:03,360 fifty different directions and they'll be able to get the 80 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,240 bitcoin and run away with the money. What do you say, 81 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:06,480 I ra. 82 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:11,560 Speaker 2: So I'm glad Tom that you brought up the blockchain, 83 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,680 because I think a lot of people and a lot 84 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:19,040 of reports about the ransom for uh Samantha gun three, 85 00:06:19,360 --> 00:06:24,120 gun Three's mother are not picking up on the most 86 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:29,519 important part of the of the ransom the ransom, which 87 00:06:29,639 --> 00:06:33,879 is that they're focused on the bitcoin. You can't use 88 00:06:33,959 --> 00:06:39,279 bitcoin without a digital wallet, and the digital wallet address 89 00:06:40,399 --> 00:06:45,839 lives in the public domain. That's the blockchain. It's like 90 00:06:45,879 --> 00:06:51,600 a giant Excel spreadsheet, and so every wallet is on 91 00:06:51,639 --> 00:06:56,240 the spreadsheet. Okay wherever. So you've got your wallet, I'm 92 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:57,759 gonna pay. I'm going to pay you. 93 00:06:58,399 --> 00:07:07,639 Speaker 1: I send you bitcoined to your wallet address. That that's correct. Okay, 94 00:07:07,920 --> 00:07:10,399 that's right. So you've got an address for your wallet, 95 00:07:10,439 --> 00:07:14,879 for your wallet, so therefore I just need to identify 96 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:18,040 who you are with the I know what the wallet 97 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:19,839 is because I got to send the money to it. 98 00:07:20,639 --> 00:07:22,079 Or is this more complicated? 99 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:28,319 Speaker 2: Well no, then that that's the basics. Now you can 100 00:07:28,399 --> 00:07:30,920 there are people, so yeah, let me let me step back. 101 00:07:31,439 --> 00:07:33,720 You send it to the wallet, and at some point 102 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:38,199 somebody has to take that bitcoin out of the wallet 103 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:41,120 to do something with it in the real world, right, 104 00:07:41,319 --> 00:07:45,959 whether they transfer it to currency dollars or euros or yen, 105 00:07:47,079 --> 00:07:50,480 whether they transfer it to gold will they transferred to 106 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:57,519 Diamonds or as the cyber criminals that ransomed Caesar's Casino 107 00:07:58,720 --> 00:08:01,959 right in my home state of the Vada a few 108 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:05,079 years back. They got fifteen million dollars Tom in their 109 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:09,959 ransom attacked against Caesar's. Yeah, and and what the cyber 110 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,759 criminals did. So Caesars paid the ransom to get access 111 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:19,199 to their data, and the cyber criminals got the bitcoin. 112 00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:22,240 And then you know the old saying, Tom, you were 113 00:08:22,240 --> 00:08:24,959 in law enforcement. You can run, but you cannot hide. 114 00:08:26,759 --> 00:08:30,279 So one of the one of the cyber criminals involved 115 00:08:30,279 --> 00:08:35,799 in this, Tayla jew Bear jew Bear j U B 116 00:08:35,960 --> 00:08:37,840 A I R. I don't know exactly how you say 117 00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:41,960 that name. He decided he wanted to go to Uber Eats. 118 00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:48,000 He ordered an Uber Eats meal and they delivered it 119 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:51,200 to where he lived. Oh boy, and law enforcement was 120 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:54,279 watching his wallet. 121 00:08:54,519 --> 00:08:56,799 Speaker 1: So you can get it to your wallet, but you 122 00:08:56,919 --> 00:09:00,679 can't spend it. You can't take it, that's exactly. 123 00:09:01,919 --> 00:09:02,159 Speaker 3: Yeah. 124 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,000 Speaker 2: Well you if you don't, you can leave it there 125 00:09:05,399 --> 00:09:08,960 forever and maybe give it to your kids in a 126 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:11,320 hundred years. No one cares anymore. 127 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: Can I Can I take the bitcoin that I have 128 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:21,080 in my wallet and pay Uber eats with bitcoin. Some 129 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,600 places do do take bitcoin now they do. So here's 130 00:09:25,639 --> 00:09:30,759 the thing, Tom, because of the increased regulations we have 131 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:33,120 now at bitcoin versus the early years, and a lot 132 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,720 of that's happened in the last year or so. Do 133 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,080 we have increased regulation. So the anti monitoring, anti money 134 00:09:39,200 --> 00:09:42,120 laundering laws are being replied. 135 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 2: To the wallets. And look, let's say I buy I 136 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:51,000 buy six million dollars worth of bitcoin at Robinhood and 137 00:09:51,080 --> 00:09:54,039 because they're they're a broker for stops and for crypto, 138 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:57,120 and I canswer to your wallet tom Okay, and you've 139 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,240 got a wallet at Goldman, SATs Okay or Hasty Trade 140 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,240 one of those other PayPal, and so the law enforcement 141 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,960 just goes to PayPal and says, where did you get 142 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:13,480 the six million dollars? Tom Iral did such and such 143 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:18,720 and gave it to me. So the trick is, if 144 00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:21,159 you're a bad guy, you can get the money sent 145 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,399 to your wallet, but then what do you do with it? 146 00:10:25,279 --> 00:10:26,840 Speaker 3: That's right, that's right. 147 00:10:26,879 --> 00:10:29,960 Speaker 2: And there are these there are these services that will 148 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,759 do what they call washing the money. They'll move them 149 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:36,960 the currency through different wallets, so it makes it harder 150 00:10:37,000 --> 00:10:40,279 to track but again, Tom, you were in law enforcement. 151 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,600 If the law enforcement is determined enough, they have someone 152 00:10:43,639 --> 00:10:47,240 who does the forensics, yeah, and says, okay, it leads 153 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:47,879 to this guy. 154 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: I heard that. 155 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:49,600 Speaker 2: That's what happened. 156 00:10:49,799 --> 00:10:51,919 Speaker 1: That's kind of what I heard. Was said. Okay. So 157 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:53,840 then they take it and they divide it up and 158 00:10:53,879 --> 00:10:56,320 spread it all over a bunch of different wallets, and 159 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,600 it's very hard to follow. In other words, if you're lazy, 160 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:02,039 I'll get away with it. If you're if you're a 161 00:11:03,399 --> 00:11:05,679 determined investigator, you can follow it. 162 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 2: Is what you're saying, that's correct, and sometimes it's easy 163 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,840 like it was with Actually I looked it up, uh 164 00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:20,679 Tala jew Bear, jew Bear, what is his name? And 165 00:11:20,919 --> 00:11:25,120 he was he was lazy. He decided to go spend 166 00:11:25,279 --> 00:11:30,600 part of his crypto on uber eats, which you gotta think, Tom, 167 00:11:30,759 --> 00:11:33,639 that's pretty dumb because the uberys delivers. 168 00:11:33,279 --> 00:11:38,600 Speaker 1: To your home. Yeah, they got your name and your address. 169 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:43,679 So in ransomware. Because we're talking of the big news 170 00:11:43,799 --> 00:11:47,480 is of course about Savannah gut Thrie's mother. But the 171 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,120 other story that we hear about once in a while, 172 00:11:50,200 --> 00:11:52,799 but I know companies don't like to talk about it 173 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,480 is the ransomware where they get an email or some 174 00:11:56,639 --> 00:12:00,840 notification we have all your data and if you want it, 175 00:12:00,879 --> 00:12:03,120 you've got to pay us x money dollars to get it. 176 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:08,080 That's what we're usually dealing with, right, correct. 177 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,080 Speaker 2: And the one other element of that, and I deal 178 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:12,519 with that a lot in my in my practice and 179 00:12:12,600 --> 00:12:17,559 information security and forensics, is that the attacker say, we 180 00:12:17,679 --> 00:12:20,320 have your data. If you don't pay us in this 181 00:12:20,399 --> 00:12:24,480 short this short period of time with crypto, with bitcoin, 182 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:27,720 we will not only not give you access to it anymore, 183 00:12:27,879 --> 00:12:31,399 but we will sell it and distribute over the internet. 184 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,960 And so for yeah, for example, you've had plastic surgery, 185 00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:39,559 medical practices where they're taking pictures of intimate parts of people. 186 00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,080 Speaker 1: YEA, sensitive private stuff. 187 00:12:42,159 --> 00:12:48,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're sensitive, private, private stuff. And so this 188 00:12:48,759 --> 00:12:52,679 is that this is much more common used by ransomware attackers. 189 00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 1: Uh. 190 00:12:53,639 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 2: And again though they don't always get away. So we 191 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,440 remember about four years or so ago, Tom, the Colonial 192 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:05,039 pipeline ransomware attack for gasoline was shut down. 193 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,639 Speaker 1: Yes, and the Colonial pipeline for people that aren't familiar, 194 00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:13,679 is the main way of moving fuel up and down 195 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:19,720 the East coast, that's correct. And the attackers were tracked 196 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,799 through their digital wallet, and about eighty ninety percent was 197 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:28,519 about four or five million dollars that was that was ransom, 198 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:32,720 you know, the ransom payment from Colonial pipeline, and about 199 00:13:33,279 --> 00:13:38,080 four million dollars of that was actually recovered through tracking 200 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:41,679 the wallets, the digital wallets. 201 00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,480 Speaker 2: So it's very hard to get to get away with 202 00:13:45,600 --> 00:13:49,080 any meaningful amount of money. And if you're not, you know, 203 00:13:49,919 --> 00:13:51,480 if you don't want a lot of money for what 204 00:13:51,519 --> 00:13:54,159 are you doing doing the crime? Just go on and 205 00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:56,240 earn an honest days living. The guy would have made 206 00:13:56,240 --> 00:13:59,080 more money now he's going to be in jail. The Uberry. 207 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,159 It's guys who just been a driver. Yeah, it may 208 00:14:02,399 --> 00:14:03,600 make money the honest way. 209 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:09,320 Speaker 1: Well, most people in law enforcement will say, if you 210 00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:12,720 just keep digging and digging, digging, because somewhere along the line, 211 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,840 somebody's made the bad guy's made a mistake, and that's 212 00:14:15,879 --> 00:14:18,039 that's what they're looking for. So it's the same applies 213 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:24,360 obviously to this. So I so we'll see what happens. 214 00:14:24,399 --> 00:14:27,399 Because the deadline five o'clock tonight. They've got to pay 215 00:14:27,559 --> 00:14:34,559 six million dollars in bitcoin, and then the next step 216 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:38,879 after that is for law enforcement to go chasing the 217 00:14:38,919 --> 00:14:41,320 wallet and watch it like a like a hawk. 218 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 3: That's right. 219 00:14:43,399 --> 00:14:45,720 Speaker 2: So I think it's not going out on a limb 220 00:14:46,960 --> 00:14:50,799 if the ransom is paid, and hopefully Samantha Guthrie's mom 221 00:14:50,879 --> 00:14:54,919 has returned to us safe, safe and sound, that we 222 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,840 may not. This story may go silent for a while, 223 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:01,240 a month, a year, five year, years, sure, and then 224 00:15:01,279 --> 00:15:04,720 you'll you'll be reading something on your phone and go, oh, 225 00:15:04,840 --> 00:15:08,120 they caught the people that kidnap Samantha done three back 226 00:15:08,200 --> 00:15:11,799 in twenty twenty six. Yeah, and I think that I'm 227 00:15:11,799 --> 00:15:14,039 not going out on a very long limb to make 228 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:14,679 that prediction. 229 00:15:15,519 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: I hope they do get caught. 230 00:15:17,279 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 1: I do too. I have my suspicions that this has 231 00:15:21,279 --> 00:15:23,639 been a week, so I got my suspicions about more 232 00:15:23,679 --> 00:15:28,600 than a week that she's even alive. I hope she is. 233 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:34,279 But it's this whole thing is a sad, sad story. 234 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:38,480 There's a lot of rich people out there that if 235 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:42,039 you want to try to steal some of their money, fine, 236 00:15:42,120 --> 00:15:45,559 Savannah Guthrie makes good a good living, no question about. 237 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:48,639 But she's not the richest person in America. There are 238 00:15:48,639 --> 00:15:52,159 other targets. So I always go back to usually when 239 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:56,799 something happens the disappearing wife. You know, they always check 240 00:15:57,000 --> 00:15:59,919 on husband family. That's where you go. 241 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:04,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, and it may be it may be that 242 00:16:05,559 --> 00:16:08,840 as well, which will will be combined with tracking down 243 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,759 the wallet so they have the have the proof to 244 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:12,559 get a conviction. 245 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:13,240 Speaker 3: I hope. 246 00:16:13,240 --> 00:16:15,919 Speaker 4: So these people should go to jail. Whoever did this, 247 00:16:16,399 --> 00:16:19,679 they should definitely go to jail. Oh, no question, good, 248 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:23,840 could you send could you send the dollar? Uh to 249 00:16:23,879 --> 00:16:28,039 see where to the bitcoin address to the wallet, just 250 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,600 so you know where the wallet so you can keep 251 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:33,799 an eye on the wall. They probably already have the 252 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,080 wallet address. Why aren't they checking that? 253 00:16:36,279 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 3: Yeah? 254 00:16:37,639 --> 00:16:41,120 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so so they if they've made the demand, 255 00:16:41,279 --> 00:16:43,399 presumably they've given an address. 256 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 3: That's what usually happens. 257 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: Here's the address for a wallet, right, so law enforcement 258 00:16:47,519 --> 00:16:53,200 already knows the activity on that wallet because it's public. 259 00:16:54,399 --> 00:16:58,919 Speaker 1: So you can see what what came in, what went out. 260 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 3: Yes, yes you can. 261 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,039 Speaker 2: And then you and then you start, uh you know, 262 00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,400 it's it's we we call cookie crumbs. Even in the 263 00:17:09,440 --> 00:17:14,640 real world. Oh listen, go back and start tracking COI crumbs. 264 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: When I was in the accounting profession, I've often said 265 00:17:17,519 --> 00:17:22,559 you could read somebody's bank statement, and without knowing who 266 00:17:22,599 --> 00:17:24,720 they are, you could you could draw up a perfect 267 00:17:25,519 --> 00:17:28,839 description of who they were by where they went, that's right, 268 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:32,680 what they bought, where their income came from, where there 269 00:17:32,839 --> 00:17:36,400 where their expenses went to. So yeah, that's what they 270 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,839 can do with the with the bitcoin wallets. It's the 271 00:17:38,839 --> 00:17:39,799 same as a chance. 272 00:17:39,839 --> 00:17:43,720 Speaker 2: And that that's right, and that could lead if it 273 00:17:43,839 --> 00:17:49,119 is someone that knows Savannah gunn gus three or her husband. 274 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:53,559 Her husband was al Gore's chief of staff for the 275 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,640 campaign in chief House. He's a big mover and shaker, 276 00:17:57,079 --> 00:18:00,680 so maybe it's someone that knows the husband. But you'll 277 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:05,640 be able by tracking the trans the transactions and looking 278 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,119 to who that person is in the same place at 279 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:13,759 the same time, with track it back to the real world. Yeah, 280 00:18:13,839 --> 00:18:14,960 odds are that. 281 00:18:15,319 --> 00:18:18,039 Speaker 1: Yeah, that the al Gore connection goes back to two 282 00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:22,359 thousand and so twenty six years ago. But yeah, that 283 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:26,920 was what he did as a young man. All right, Well, Ira, interesting, 284 00:18:27,039 --> 00:18:31,920 So we'll see what happens and if they pay then we, 285 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:34,880 like you said, we've got to be patient. We'll wait 286 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:38,160 and see. Might take a while, but they will find him, 287 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:43,680 that's right, Yeah, iie Ira Victor. Give us your your 288 00:18:43,720 --> 00:18:48,880 full contact info so people know how to reach you. 289 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:55,079 Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Tom, Ira Victor. I'm a digital 290 00:18:55,160 --> 00:19:00,119 forensic analyst with Discovery Technician dot com. 291 00:19:00,039 --> 00:19:05,359 Speaker 1: Perfect Perfect Perfect. I are always good to check in 292 00:19:05,440 --> 00:19:09,319 with you. We don't we shouldn't wait until we have 293 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:13,640 a ransom situation. But I knew when I saw this 294 00:19:13,759 --> 00:19:16,640 and started thinking about bitcoin, I knew exactly who to call. 295 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,759 So thank you. Have a wonderful rest of your day 296 00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,640 and we'll catch up with you again soon. So while 297 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:29,920 we were recording the conversation with Ira, Savannah gut three 298 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:35,359 has just released another plea to the kidnappers. Let's listen. 299 00:19:37,599 --> 00:19:44,079 Speaker 5: Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just 300 00:19:44,559 --> 00:19:50,839 share a few thoughts as we enter into another week 301 00:19:50,920 --> 00:19:57,240 of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all, 302 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:03,839 thank you so much for all of the prayers and 303 00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,680 the love that we have felt, my sister and brother 304 00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:14,279 and I, and that our mom has felt. Because we 305 00:20:14,400 --> 00:20:19,039 believe that somehow, some ways she is feeling these prayers 306 00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:21,440 and that God is lifting her even in this moment 307 00:20:21,519 --> 00:20:26,799 and in this darkest place. We believe our mom is 308 00:20:26,839 --> 00:20:35,559 still out there. We need your help, law enforcement, is 309 00:20:35,599 --> 00:20:39,559 working tirelessly around the clock trying to bring her home, 310 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:43,279 trying to find her. She was taken and we don't 311 00:20:43,319 --> 00:20:44,000 know where. 312 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:46,559 Speaker 3: And we need your help. 313 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 5: So I'm coming on just to ask you, not just 314 00:20:53,200 --> 00:20:56,279 for your prayers, but no matter where you are, even 315 00:20:56,279 --> 00:21:00,200 if you're far from Tucson, if you see anything, you 316 00:21:00,200 --> 00:21:04,200 hear anything, if there's anything at all that seems strange 317 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:11,279 to you that you report to law enforcement. We are 318 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:13,079 an hour of desperation. 319 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,039 Speaker 1: We need your op So that just came out late 320 00:21:19,039 --> 00:21:23,319 this afternoon. It was moments ago. We're recording in the afternoon. 321 00:21:24,359 --> 00:21:28,079 She said, we need you and then she repeated three 322 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:31,200 different times, we need your help, We need your help, 323 00:21:31,279 --> 00:21:34,240 we need your help in different parts of that statement. 324 00:21:34,519 --> 00:21:38,079 She was not using a script, she was not reading 325 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,920 some things. This was contemporaneous, she said, at an hour 326 00:21:43,079 --> 00:21:47,079 of desperation because again the deadline that was given in 327 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:51,720 the ransom note was five o'clock Mountain time. Just that 328 00:21:51,839 --> 00:21:58,079 for your time zone. So they're still looking. Josh Ritter, 329 00:22:01,079 --> 00:22:04,680 he's a criminal defense lawyer, he's also former law enforcement, 330 00:22:05,119 --> 00:22:10,079 had this reaction to the search for Nancy Guthrie. 331 00:22:10,319 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 6: We need to get some answers as to if they've 332 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:15,240 made any progress, because, like you said, we're nine days 333 00:22:15,279 --> 00:22:19,200 in last Sunday is when she was abducted, and the 334 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:22,200 idea that the last we've heard from law enforcement is 335 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,640 that they still have no suspects, no even persons of interest, 336 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:30,039 and yes, they continue to investigate. We've heard about photographs 337 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,480 being taken, We've heard about other cameras being retrieved from 338 00:22:33,559 --> 00:22:37,480 the crime scene. We've heard about them looking even under manholes. 339 00:22:37,559 --> 00:22:39,720 But we don't know if all of this is based 340 00:22:39,799 --> 00:22:42,720 upon new leads or if this is just them following 341 00:22:42,799 --> 00:22:45,559 up and being thorough with their investigation. But there's this 342 00:22:45,799 --> 00:22:49,400 chilling silence that has taken over the investigation because we 343 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,359 don't have any answers as to what to expect next. 344 00:22:52,559 --> 00:22:56,079 Speaker 1: James Gagliano, former NYPD, this is his thought. 345 00:22:57,079 --> 00:22:59,039 Speaker 7: Yeah, I think it's all part and parcel of the 346 00:22:59,160 --> 00:23:04,160 conduct of an investigation that has defied gravity for so long. 347 00:23:04,319 --> 00:23:07,519 It just doesn't make sense from so many parts of 348 00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:11,960 what traditional kidnappings typically entail. Again going back to the 349 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:15,720 Limberg baby kidnapping, or Frank Sinatra Junior or even Patty Hurst. 350 00:23:16,200 --> 00:23:18,519 Speaker 3: Is this for profit? Is it for revenge? 351 00:23:19,039 --> 00:23:21,720 Speaker 7: Is there an ideological bent to this, and that has 352 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,000 not been stated or released yet. I think this is 353 00:23:25,200 --> 00:23:28,480 just a law enforcement team, the FBI and the Pima 354 00:23:28,559 --> 00:23:32,880 County Sheriff's Office that is turning over every stone, following 355 00:23:33,079 --> 00:23:37,279 exhaustively every lead, literally going down rabbit holes, and sometimes 356 00:23:37,319 --> 00:23:40,160 that's what you have to do. I won't criticize them 357 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,720 for going back to the house. I criticized them last 358 00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:45,400 week for releasing the crime scene so early. 359 00:23:45,799 --> 00:23:47,519 Speaker 3: But as was pointed out at the top. 360 00:23:47,319 --> 00:23:49,480 Speaker 7: Of this hit, you know, there's a lot of work 361 00:23:49,559 --> 00:23:54,160 ongoing behind the scenes on digital imagery. That stuff takes time. 362 00:23:54,519 --> 00:23:57,240 Was it a proxy server? Was it an IP address 363 00:23:57,279 --> 00:24:00,480 that was masked by VPN? Things like that take time 364 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,480 to kind of grind through. And think that's what they're 365 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:04,759 focused on right now. If you listen to the three 366 00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:08,480 messages that have been released by the family and their 367 00:24:08,519 --> 00:24:11,519 heart wrenching, you see a family, you know, at the 368 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,960 end of their rope, literally beseeching the captors or the 369 00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:19,279 abductors to please release them. I'm still not certain that 370 00:24:19,319 --> 00:24:23,240 these notes, this messaging and communications from these so called 371 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:25,839 abductors can be authenticated yet. 372 00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 3: And there's a lot. 373 00:24:27,039 --> 00:24:30,079 Speaker 7: To this that the FBI the behavioral analysis unit as 374 00:24:30,079 --> 00:24:33,480 well as the crisis Negotiation unit are trying to assist 375 00:24:33,519 --> 00:24:37,559 a family with Remember, we in law enforcement cannot compel 376 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,680 a family to act in a certain way or tell 377 00:24:40,759 --> 00:24:42,039 them that they have to do this. 378 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 3: It's all up to them. And here's the chilling piece 379 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:45,680 of this. 380 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 7: We're hurtling towards a deadline right now, five o'clock right 381 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:51,880 which is the second deadline that's been laid out by 382 00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,680 the supposed kidnappers. I don't even think paying the ransom 383 00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,000 money would be dispositive in this case. 384 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 3: Could these be fraudsters a opportunists? 385 00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 7: And I think that's what the family and law enforcement 386 00:25:04,519 --> 00:25:06,319 is having to be forced to deal. 387 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:06,799 Speaker 3: With right now. 388 00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 1: So we know about two maybe three messages coming from 389 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:15,440 I think it's two from the from whoever is the 390 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:20,920 cap door, and yet nobody can figure out they don't 391 00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:23,240 fit the pattern of a normal ransom letter. 392 00:25:23,519 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 7: They make no sense. And here's why. Typically in a kidnapping, 393 00:25:27,039 --> 00:25:30,559 if it follows typical protocols, there are a multiple deadline 394 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:34,440 set when the kidnapper wants to show how serious they are. 395 00:25:34,759 --> 00:25:38,000 If you do not comply with the first deadline, you 396 00:25:38,039 --> 00:25:41,480 will receive negative consequences, and those you can think about 397 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,680 all the awful things that could happen in this instance 398 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,880 where there doesn't appear to be any negative consequences. We're 399 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,839 still not one hundred percent certain that missus Guthrie is 400 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:54,839 alive because there's been no proof of life, and yet 401 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,440 it wouldn't be surprised if there was an additional deadline. 402 00:25:57,559 --> 00:26:01,000 Somebody's either playing this out because either trying to mass 403 00:26:01,039 --> 00:26:03,559 the fact that they do not have her, or they're 404 00:26:03,559 --> 00:26:05,960 just trying to lead the family on and try to 405 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:07,519 get any money out of them that they can. 406 00:26:09,319 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: So let's keep go and get comments from around the table, 407 00:26:13,279 --> 00:26:17,240 if you will, from Law Enforcement actports. John Miller had 408 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:18,799 this observation today. 409 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,519 Speaker 8: You know, we know this does not appear to the 410 00:26:21,599 --> 00:26:25,720 kidnapping have involved a gentle extraction from the house. We 411 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:28,599 know from the pictures we've seen and from the statements 412 00:26:28,599 --> 00:26:31,759 of the sheriff there's blood on the front steps by 413 00:26:31,799 --> 00:26:35,000 the front door. That DNA shows that that's her blood. 414 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,039 Considering what you pointed out, her age, the need for medications, 415 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:43,200 or what the family described as her brittle health condition 416 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:48,279 on a normal day, that would be a very high 417 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:51,960 risk victim and Remember, when you're the kidnapper, you're not 418 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,559 just holding the person you're kidnapped. You are responsible for 419 00:26:56,640 --> 00:27:02,319 the care and well being of that victim while you 420 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,799 have them, and you know, these are real questions about 421 00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:10,839 what is her status now. I think the difficulty we're 422 00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:14,519 in is the nature of that communication. You know, when 423 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,599 you have a kidnapper who reaches out through the media 424 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,839 and then gets a response through the media, usually the 425 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,799 next step would be to create a private communication direct 426 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:29,240 with the family where you could get into these sensitive 427 00:27:29,279 --> 00:27:32,440 areas and specifics. What are the mechanics, how do we 428 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,799 get this done, how do we pay? How much is 429 00:27:36,839 --> 00:27:40,079 there a negotiation there? What about the transfer of the 430 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:43,960 person back to us? How will that happen? But when 431 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:49,039 you're communicating through multiple television outlets and then being answered 432 00:27:49,119 --> 00:27:53,000 by social media, we're not seeing a lot of that unfold. 433 00:27:53,799 --> 00:27:57,480 In listening to my former FBI colleagues this weekend, you know, 434 00:27:58,039 --> 00:28:00,920 at least three of them brought up the idea that 435 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:06,359 the word so that we can celebrate with her. Does 436 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,319 that mean a celebration of life, which would be indicating 437 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,440 that she may no longer be with us, or does 438 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,240 that mean celebrate her coming home. All of that, mixed 439 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,599 with the tone is the things that are raising these questions. 440 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:22,279 But the simple fact is we don't know. 441 00:28:22,599 --> 00:28:26,759 Speaker 1: Stuart Kaplan, former FBI has a different angle to all 442 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:26,920 of this. 443 00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:33,400 Speaker 9: From my advantage point, those messages are messaging directly the 444 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,319 source of whoever has been sending those ransom notes. Now 445 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,640 we don't have the benefit of being able to actually 446 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:44,640 read those ransom notes. And by the way, there may 447 00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,480 be some additional messaging that quite frankly, Lauren Forsman or 448 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,279 the FBI is holding close to the vest. But it 449 00:28:51,400 --> 00:28:55,400 seemed at least yesterday that that messaging, in a very 450 00:28:55,519 --> 00:29:01,599 cryptic but very specific and methodical way, was responsive to 451 00:29:01,920 --> 00:29:07,440 specific questions or concerns from the ransom note makers or 452 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:10,720 authors of that ransom note. And that's why I think 453 00:29:10,759 --> 00:29:13,599 that there is a lot more information that is unknown 454 00:29:13,599 --> 00:29:16,279 to the general public, that specifically is only known to 455 00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:19,559 law enforcement. And it's a cat and mouse game at 456 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:23,759 this point. Well, again, that money play may have been 457 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:28,519 because quite frankly, either the family resisted or pushed back 458 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:32,720 or at the direction of law enforcement, was not responsive 459 00:29:33,279 --> 00:29:37,880 to the ransom note makers or communicators, and in retaliation 460 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:44,000 for non compliance, they now escalated or increased or heightened 461 00:29:44,599 --> 00:29:47,200 the threat level and said, look, we wanted a million, 462 00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:49,680 and now if you want to see your mother returned 463 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:53,200 to you, or ever see her alive again, it's now 464 00:29:53,359 --> 00:29:57,519 six million. And I will say this, this five o'clock 465 00:29:57,599 --> 00:30:01,480 deadline cuts both ways, because thing happens at five o'clock. 466 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,480 Clearly the ransom note makers lose their credibility, and also 467 00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,960 if the gut three family doesn't follow through and make 468 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,839 that payment again, there may be some unfortunate consequences. This 469 00:30:15,079 --> 00:30:18,079 is going to be a game changer this afternoon at 470 00:30:18,119 --> 00:30:21,319 five o'clock. Look, yeah, well look there's a lot of 471 00:30:21,359 --> 00:30:24,400 tension behind the curtains. I will say that the Guthrie family, 472 00:30:24,480 --> 00:30:26,839 and rightfully so, if it's your loved one, you're willing 473 00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:29,480 to pay whatever it takes, whatever you could muster up 474 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,000 or afford, even if it's a long shot. On the 475 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:37,200 flip side, law enforcement is wanting to see proof of life. 476 00:30:37,279 --> 00:30:40,960 They want to see some additional information so that arguably, 477 00:30:41,079 --> 00:30:44,279 you don't send six million dollars to someone who disappears 478 00:30:44,519 --> 00:30:46,799 and they have nothing to show for it. So here 479 00:30:46,880 --> 00:30:50,680 again is a cat and mouse game. I will just 480 00:30:50,759 --> 00:30:52,400 say this to you, and I've said it from the 481 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,160 very beginning. The advancement of technology that is in the 482 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:00,720 toolbox of the FBI is like no other in twenty 483 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:01,440 twenty six. 484 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:04,519 Speaker 3: Those assets and resources. 485 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:07,079 Speaker 9: Generally are never known or seen by the general public 486 00:31:07,119 --> 00:31:10,839 in a criminal investigation. I again think the breakthrough of 487 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,119 this case will be caught will be because of the 488 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,200 advancement in technology that the FBI has deployed in this case. 489 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:21,960 Those data sets, those digital footprints, do take some time, 490 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,240 but again I am optimistic that we are at the 491 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,880 precipice of this case being broken wide open. So again, 492 00:31:29,759 --> 00:31:32,559 a new message from Savannah Guthrie. She was not reading 493 00:31:32,599 --> 00:31:36,279 a script. You could tell it was ad lib. She 494 00:31:36,319 --> 00:31:42,680 looked very stressed. She had a couple of comments in there. 495 00:31:43,119 --> 00:31:49,000 One of them was at an hour of desperation, she says, 496 00:31:49,119 --> 00:31:52,839 we are we believe our mom is still out there. 497 00:31:53,759 --> 00:31:58,559 She said, we need you. Then she three times repeated 498 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:03,200 throughout not a very long statement, we need your help. 499 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,640 Thanked everybody for their prayers. So five o'clock is the 500 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:15,160 deadline Mountain time, just for your time zone. But yeah, 501 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,000 I believe Stuart Kaplan's right. We're down to a precipice 502 00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:22,759 on this particular event. And like we talked to Ira 503 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:28,680 Victor about if they send the money, then the FBI 504 00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:31,000 is going to have to then keep an eye on 505 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:34,799 that wallet. And if nobody touches the wallet, and who 506 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,519 will it be? Who somebody's got to make a mistake here, 507 00:32:37,559 --> 00:32:40,240 somebody's got a blink in order to figure out who 508 00:32:40,359 --> 00:32:45,200 is the person or people behind the abduction of Nancy Guthrie. 509 00:32:45,920 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: All right, Wall Street today, Well we were positive, So 510 00:32:51,519 --> 00:32:55,759 those are technically some new records today. Dow up twenty 511 00:32:55,880 --> 00:33:01,039 points to fifty. I know fifty one thousand and one, 512 00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,599 thirty five s and P up thirty two, NAZDAC up 513 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,359 two hundred and seven, Gold up one hundred dollars back 514 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,720 above five thousand. We were there last week the five 515 00:33:12,799 --> 00:33:16,039 thousand and eighty for an ounce of gold and oil 516 00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,799 up about a dollar. Today is sixty four dollars and 517 00:33:18,839 --> 00:33:22,440 some change. That's it for today. I have a wonderful 518 00:33:22,519 --> 00:33:25,240 rest of your Monday. We'll be back again tomorrow. Hope 519 00:33:25,279 --> 00:33:25,960 to see you there.