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Gacy Bundy Dahmer The night Stalker 35 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:54.680 VTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most 36 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:58.680 shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder 37 00:01:59.239 --> 00:02:02.799 with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski. 38 00:02:10.800 --> 00:02:15.240 Good Evening. Acclaimed crime historian, podcaster and author of American 39 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:19.800 Sherlock Kate Winkler Dawson tells the thrilling story of Edward Roloff, 40 00:02:20.159 --> 00:02:23.199 a serial murder who was called too intelligent to be killed, 41 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:26.639 and the array of nineteenth century investigators who were convinced 42 00:02:26.680 --> 00:02:30.000 his brain held the key to finally understanding the criminal mind. 43 00:02:30.599 --> 00:02:33.879 Edward Roloff was a brilliant, yet utterly a moral murderer. 44 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:37.520 Some have called him a Victorian era Hannibal lecter, whose 45 00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:41.039 crimes spanned decades, in whose victims were chosen out of revenge, 46 00:02:41.520 --> 00:02:44.719 out of envy, and sometimes out of necessity. From his 47 00:02:44.840 --> 00:02:47.919 humble beginnings in upstate New York to the dazzling salons 48 00:02:47.960 --> 00:02:51.039 and social life he established in New York City, at 49 00:02:51.039 --> 00:02:54.280 every turn, Roloff used his intelligent and regal bearing to 50 00:02:54.360 --> 00:02:57.919 evade detection and avoid punishment. He could talk his way 51 00:02:57.960 --> 00:03:01.639 out of any crime, until one day, Roloff's luck ran out. 52 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:04.759 By eighteen seventy one, Rollufs sat chained in his cell, 53 00:03:05.159 --> 00:03:09.919 a psychopath holding court while curious nineteenth century mindhunters tried 54 00:03:09.919 --> 00:03:14.199 to understand what made him tick. From alienists early psychiatrists 55 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:16.759 who tried to analyze the source of his madness, to 56 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:21.199 neurologists who wanted to dissect his brain, to phrenologists who 57 00:03:21.319 --> 00:03:24.080 analyzed the bumps on his head to determine his character, 58 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:27.080 each one thought he held the key to understand the 59 00:03:27.280 --> 00:03:32.400 essential question, is evil born or made? Eventually, Roloff's brain 60 00:03:32.520 --> 00:03:35.280 would be placed in a jar at Cornell University as 61 00:03:35.360 --> 00:03:39.280 the prize specimen of their Anatomy collection, where it still 62 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:42.479 sits today, slowly moldering in a dusty jar. But his 63 00:03:42.599 --> 00:03:45.879 story and its implications for the emerging field of criminal 64 00:03:45.960 --> 00:03:50.000 psychology were just beginning. Expanded from season one of her 65 00:03:50.120 --> 00:03:54.000 hit podcast on the Exactly Right Network, All That Is Wicked, 66 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:57.560 Kate Winkler Dawson draws on hundreds of source materials and 67 00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:01.120 never before shared historical documents to present one of the 68 00:04:01.199 --> 00:04:04.560 first glimpses into the mind of a serial killer, a 69 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:08.120 century before the term was coined, through the scientists whose 70 00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:11.520 work would come to influence criminal justice for decades to come. 71 00:04:11.960 --> 00:04:14.479 The book that we're featuring this evening is All That 72 00:04:14.680 --> 00:04:17.480 Is Wicked, a Gilded Age story of murder and the 73 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:21.279 race to the code the criminal mind, with my special guests, 74 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:24.800 his story and and author and podcaster Kate Winkler Dawson. 75 00:04:25.079 --> 00:04:27.279 Welcome back to the program, and thank you so much 76 00:04:27.319 --> 00:04:28.959 for this interview. Kate Winkler Dawson. 77 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:30.800 Thanks for having me, Dan, I appreciate it. 78 00:04:30.959 --> 00:04:34.920 Thank you so much, and congratulations on this new book. Fascinating, 79 00:04:35.040 --> 00:04:38.759 fascinating the story and right away. I want to ask you. 80 00:04:39.360 --> 00:04:42.600 I guess it's obvious from the introduction somewhat, but how 81 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.879 you came to want to cover this incredible story. 82 00:04:46.120 --> 00:04:49.360 Well, I have always been fascinated with why people kill, 83 00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:51.560 and that's what I do in my podcast and all 84 00:04:51.639 --> 00:04:54.240 of my books is really analyze that, and I look 85 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.199 to history to analyze that and to figure out more 86 00:04:57.319 --> 00:05:00.920 answers to these questions. And why I ran across I 87 00:05:01.120 --> 00:05:03.560 ran across Edward Ruloff. I don't even know how long ago. 88 00:05:03.720 --> 00:05:05.920 I mean, I've lived with him for six or seven 89 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:08.360 years at this point, and I ran across his story, 90 00:05:08.519 --> 00:05:11.079 and I thought that it would be interesting to tell 91 00:05:11.160 --> 00:05:15.360 his story because this was someone who defied everything that 92 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:18.879 people thought a criminal was in the nineteenth century. They 93 00:05:18.959 --> 00:05:22.519 thought a killer was a killer who was disheveled and 94 00:05:23.000 --> 00:05:26.240 wild eyed and somebody who you could spot easily. Not 95 00:05:26.399 --> 00:05:30.199 your neighbor, or your teacher, or your husband or the 96 00:05:30.519 --> 00:05:33.160 you know, your in law. These are all things that 97 00:05:33.439 --> 00:05:37.360 were when it was discovered, were stunning to the people, 98 00:05:37.560 --> 00:05:39.560 not just an upstate New York or in America, but 99 00:05:39.680 --> 00:05:42.480 around the world because this was a man who looked 100 00:05:42.879 --> 00:05:46.839 like everyone else. Even more disturbing was he was smarter 101 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.839 than everyone else, and he carried himself with eloquence, and 102 00:05:50.920 --> 00:05:56.000 he presented as this country gentleman when really, truly he 103 00:05:56.279 --> 00:05:59.680 was willing to remove any obstacle in his way, and 104 00:06:00.079 --> 00:06:03.839 he had such insecurities that he wanted to seek revenge 105 00:06:04.000 --> 00:06:07.000 against people who he felt wronged him. And it didn't 106 00:06:07.040 --> 00:06:10.040 matter if it were women and children in his wake. 107 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.000 So it's a tremendous story for me to tell in 108 00:06:13.120 --> 00:06:16.240 a time period that I just love, Gilded Age New York. 109 00:06:16.600 --> 00:06:19.639 You take us back to January tenth, eighteen seventy one, 110 00:06:20.079 --> 00:06:23.720 and in a cell is someone purported to be Edward 111 00:06:23.920 --> 00:06:27.399 Howard Rolloff, and the person that is interviewing him is 112 00:06:27.519 --> 00:06:28.959 this newspaper person. 113 00:06:29.279 --> 00:06:31.120 His name is Hamilton Freeman. 114 00:06:31.319 --> 00:06:35.519 Yes, so Hamilton Freeman has this opportunity to interview who 115 00:06:35.600 --> 00:06:39.839 he thinks is Edward Howard Rolloff. And this is right 116 00:06:40.319 --> 00:06:44.040 after seeing portions of the trial. So tell us where 117 00:06:44.319 --> 00:06:47.399 he is at and where Edward Rolloff is at at 118 00:06:47.480 --> 00:06:48.879 this time in history. 119 00:06:49.079 --> 00:06:51.279 Well, at this point we don't know whatever Roulov had 120 00:06:51.319 --> 00:06:54.879 done to be in this jail. He's being held during 121 00:06:54.959 --> 00:06:57.560 his trial, and Hamilton Freeman was just one of the 122 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.160 many many reporters who showed up at the courthouse in Binghamton, 123 00:07:01.279 --> 00:07:04.680 New York to watch this murder trial, and he just 124 00:07:04.800 --> 00:07:08.800 became enamored with Ruloff as a subject. He thought that 125 00:07:09.199 --> 00:07:13.439 because he represented himself in some instances he was eloquent. He, 126 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:16.720 just as I said before, defied everything that really people 127 00:07:16.959 --> 00:07:20.240 defined a killer to be in the eighteen hundreds. And 128 00:07:20.360 --> 00:07:24.000 so Hamilton Freeman approached Ruloff and his attorney and said, 129 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:27.759 I want to write your biography, and Ruloff, being someone 130 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.720 who you know is very clearly out for his own 131 00:07:30.839 --> 00:07:35.680 self interests agreed because he sensed that Hamilton Freeman was 132 00:07:35.839 --> 00:07:39.480 not a cynical New York City reporter. He sends that 133 00:07:39.560 --> 00:07:42.800 he was a small town reporter who was somebody who 134 00:07:42.879 --> 00:07:46.240 had the ability to be manipulated very easily. And it's 135 00:07:46.399 --> 00:07:49.879 very clear to me and to the forensic psychiatrist I 136 00:07:49.959 --> 00:07:52.879 interviewed for this book that Ruloff checked just about every 137 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:57.560 marker for psychopathy, for antisocial personality disorder and psychopathy in 138 00:07:57.680 --> 00:08:00.240 the nineteenth century, and there was no way to diagnose this, 139 00:08:00.439 --> 00:08:03.360 of course back then. But I used this book as 140 00:08:03.360 --> 00:08:05.959 a way to trace his actions along with the actions 141 00:08:06.000 --> 00:08:12.600 of other serial killers and psychopaths throughout history to show that, unfortunately, 142 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:17.600 and very uncomfortable saying it, that the reasons that people 143 00:08:17.720 --> 00:08:20.720 kill have not changed from the sixteen hundreds, of the 144 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:24.160 fifteen hundreds until now. You know, there's jealousy and envy 145 00:08:24.279 --> 00:08:27.279 and insecurity and love and sex and money and greed. 146 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:30.279 Those are all things that have just repeated throughout history. 147 00:08:30.680 --> 00:08:36.919 However, this Edward Roloff is a unique specimen. Certainly when 148 00:08:37.320 --> 00:08:42.240 this Freeman, Hamilton Freeman, was interviewing him, he asked along 149 00:08:42.360 --> 00:08:45.039 the way in that first interview where he thought that 150 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:48.159 Roloff's life may have gone off course? 151 00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:52.799 What was his response, Well, he could pinpoint it exactly, 152 00:08:52.840 --> 00:08:55.879 and I'm not sure he was really right. Rulolph was 153 00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:59.720 born in Canada and had a heart scrabble upbringing, but 154 00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:03.080 from a mother who really was had a love for 155 00:09:03.159 --> 00:09:07.320 academia and supported him. And things fell apart for him 156 00:09:07.879 --> 00:09:11.799 in my eyes, when his uncle refused to fund his 157 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:14.840 college education. I think that's when he thought things were 158 00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:19.000 going to be derailed. Ruloff told Hamilton that things really 159 00:09:19.039 --> 00:09:21.480 went off the rails for him when he arrived in 160 00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:24.879 New York and he started working as like a like 161 00:09:24.919 --> 00:09:27.799 a helper on the canal, on the Ear Canal, and 162 00:09:27.960 --> 00:09:32.200 he met a man named Henry Scutt, who eventually took 163 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:36.279 him home and introduced him to his family. And Ruloff 164 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:40.600 became entrenched in this family and married into it. And 165 00:09:40.759 --> 00:09:45.039 he blames the Scuts for everything that has gone wrong 166 00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:49.679 in his life. Typical psychopath, Typical of someone who has psychopathies, 167 00:09:49.720 --> 00:09:51.039 blaming everybody but himself. 168 00:09:51.320 --> 00:09:54.559 So what was the motivation? You say that you're right 169 00:09:54.840 --> 00:09:59.480 that Rolloff was hesitant to speak to anyone, any journalist, 170 00:10:00.080 --> 00:10:03.159 and yet he decided that this would be Freeman would 171 00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:06.240 be the person that would be able to do his biography. 172 00:10:06.919 --> 00:10:10.159 What was in it for Freeman other than what was 173 00:10:10.200 --> 00:10:12.200 in it for Freeman and what was in it for 174 00:10:12.600 --> 00:10:14.960 roll Off? What was their motivations? 175 00:10:15.399 --> 00:10:19.279 Well, since the beginning of time, since the beginning of journalism, 176 00:10:19.600 --> 00:10:24.120 journalists and criminals have had a very transactional relationship where 177 00:10:24.399 --> 00:10:26.519 you know, they need each other to a certain extent, 178 00:10:26.600 --> 00:10:29.440 at least people who who go into prisons and interview 179 00:10:29.759 --> 00:10:32.360 Ted Mundy had two journalists who wrote a book about him, 180 00:10:32.360 --> 00:10:35.080 who he gave extensive interviews to. And you know, the 181 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:37.840 motivation for Ruloff to get his story out there was 182 00:10:38.200 --> 00:10:42.159 he had made a discovery, he believed in the pattern 183 00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:46.279 of how human language was created, and he thought, and 184 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:48.879 other people thought, if you could just figure that pattern out, 185 00:10:49.000 --> 00:10:52.559 that it would be very easy to market human language 186 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:54.480 as a way to you know, you teach a Frenchman 187 00:10:54.600 --> 00:10:57.519 Italian very easily, and this would have been a huge discovery. 188 00:10:57.679 --> 00:11:01.000 So Ruleoff's motivation to have him Hamilton Freeman write this 189 00:11:01.080 --> 00:11:04.240 biography was of course to get his theory out there, 190 00:11:04.360 --> 00:11:06.759 to get his life story out there, and Hamilton Freeman 191 00:11:07.039 --> 00:11:09.360 was certainly hopeful that it would put him on the 192 00:11:09.440 --> 00:11:12.440 map as an accomplished author, which it would have. This 193 00:11:12.519 --> 00:11:14.480 would have been a true crime book and a biography 194 00:11:14.559 --> 00:11:18.120 that would have that was very well received. And so 195 00:11:18.559 --> 00:11:22.799 I don't know if Hamilton Freeman quite understood the depths 196 00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:25.759 of the skill of manipulation that Edward had, but he 197 00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:26.919 found out pretty quickly. 198 00:11:27.279 --> 00:11:30.120 What was the You talk about the motivation, but what 199 00:11:30.360 --> 00:11:34.200 was Rolloff's excuse for because in this interview he was 200 00:11:34.279 --> 00:11:39.279 asked about the murder of his wife and his daughter, 201 00:11:40.000 --> 00:11:42.120 So what was his response to that, what was the 202 00:11:42.200 --> 00:11:43.120 reasoning for that? 203 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:47.159 Well, as he told his life story to Hamilton Freeman. 204 00:11:47.600 --> 00:11:51.200 You know, Hamilton really was trying to get at specific 205 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:55.039 details that might clue him in and the readers into 206 00:11:55.480 --> 00:11:58.879 why Rulof did this, because really that was the big question. 207 00:11:59.200 --> 00:12:01.679 How could a man who who presented himself the way 208 00:12:01.720 --> 00:12:03.879 he did turn around and be a killer. Because if 209 00:12:03.919 --> 00:12:06.879 ever Ruloff were a killer, anybody in your life could 210 00:12:06.879 --> 00:12:10.200 be a killer, and that was petrifying. So when Ruloff 211 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:14.879 leading up to this time, when Ruloff describes the argument 212 00:12:15.000 --> 00:12:17.240 that he has with his wife while his wife has 213 00:12:17.320 --> 00:12:21.559 their essentially newborn child nearby, you know, he's describing this 214 00:12:21.679 --> 00:12:25.759 in a very dramatic nineteenth century manner, lots of flair, 215 00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:30.200 and you know, very dramatic. And he does ultimately confess 216 00:12:30.600 --> 00:12:35.840 to him, but he gives just enough details of this 217 00:12:36.440 --> 00:12:40.639 the murder that takes place, that he doesn't reveal what 218 00:12:40.879 --> 00:12:46.120 happens to his daughter Priscilla. So there are assumptions, and 219 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:49.320 ham felt very uncomfortable talking to him about it, but 220 00:12:49.759 --> 00:12:53.480 there seems to be very little evidence that Edward had 221 00:12:53.600 --> 00:12:57.279 planned and sent her away somewhere else. The conclusion is 222 00:12:57.480 --> 00:12:59.440 that most people would have and I have, is that 223 00:12:59.600 --> 00:13:02.720 he and up killing his daughter also and dropping them 224 00:13:02.759 --> 00:13:05.600 both into Cayuga Lake, which is why he was never 225 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:09.120 on trial for their murder. He went on trial for kidnapping. 226 00:13:09.240 --> 00:13:11.639 They couldn't prove murder. He was very smart in that 227 00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:14.639 way he covered up the evidence. But I think his 228 00:13:14.799 --> 00:13:19.360 motivation for confessing to that particular crime was really to 229 00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:22.240 keep Ham's interest. I think he knew that he had 230 00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:25.159 to give Ham something. And there are a couple of 231 00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:28.399 other murders that happened where rule Off is not so 232 00:13:28.559 --> 00:13:32.440 forthright with him, but with this one, the way he 233 00:13:32.679 --> 00:13:36.600 describes his fight with Harriet, where he is saying, I'm 234 00:13:36.639 --> 00:13:38.720 going to create a new life for us out west. 235 00:13:38.879 --> 00:13:40.960 I want to take you. I will make you have 236 00:13:41.039 --> 00:13:43.240 a better life and we will be happy and free 237 00:13:43.320 --> 00:13:47.519 with our daughter, and she reacts in such a verbally 238 00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:50.159 violent way to him. I think he framed it in 239 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.559 a way that it almost seems logical that he killed her. 240 00:13:55.159 --> 00:13:59.480 It almost to him seemed that she was destroying their 241 00:13:59.559 --> 00:14:02.159 life and it was an act of passion, And I'm 242 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.120 not quite sure it went that way in real life. 243 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:08.080 I do think that they had an argument, but I 244 00:14:08.200 --> 00:14:10.679 think that this was not an accident. It was an 245 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:14.639 intentional murder that he really maybe have thought about earlier. 246 00:14:15.120 --> 00:14:17.440 They had had a lot of acrimony in their marriage. 247 00:14:17.879 --> 00:14:20.039 He thought that she was having an affair with her 248 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:23.600 male cousin, which would the affair would be surprising for me, 249 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:26.240 but the male cousin part is not surprising. It was 250 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.720 very common for people to marry who were first cousins. 251 00:14:31.200 --> 00:14:34.120 So you know, Rulolf was incredibly jealous of this man, 252 00:14:34.200 --> 00:14:38.000 doctor Bull, and it had just plagued their marriage. So 253 00:14:38.240 --> 00:14:41.480 this was this was a huge trigger for him when 254 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:44.840 she finally said, I'm not going out west. But I 255 00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:46.600 do think the way it was framed in the way 256 00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:50.399 Hamilton responded was the way Edward wanted him to responded, 257 00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:52.840 which is boy, he loved her so much that he 258 00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.519 was almost left with no choice, you know, but he 259 00:14:55.559 --> 00:14:58.600 wouldn't confess to his daughter, And I think that's he 260 00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:00.879 couldn't bring himself to say I did this to an 261 00:15:00.919 --> 00:15:02.919 innocent child. It's all manipulation. 262 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:08.600 It's incredible too to demonstrate or illustrate his psychopathic abilities 263 00:15:08.879 --> 00:15:13.320 in terms of being an incredible actor. Ye, you write 264 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:17.879 about this right out of a horror movie where despite 265 00:15:17.960 --> 00:15:22.759 this family not liking this person whatsoever and suspicious of 266 00:15:22.879 --> 00:15:27.440 his background, completely and the maltreatment of their sister by 267 00:15:27.480 --> 00:15:31.120 this huge family that still he had made it an 268 00:15:31.120 --> 00:15:34.039 impression and had a friendship of sorts with one of 269 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:37.360 the brothers named William. But despite this, they still were 270 00:15:37.399 --> 00:15:40.279 at odds with the entire family over this raving, over 271 00:15:40.399 --> 00:15:46.320 this doctor bull And yet something disastrous happened to William's 272 00:15:46.399 --> 00:15:50.240 wife and daughter. Tell us about this extraordinary, horrific scene 273 00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:51.279 in this book. 274 00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:54.279 Yeah, and we know when I unravel this, it's something 275 00:15:54.320 --> 00:15:56.000 you have to keep in mind because some of the 276 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.240 things that happen are pretty extraordinary. The thing you have 277 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:01.320 to keep in mind is this time Pero, people believed 278 00:16:01.440 --> 00:16:04.559 that a man's handshake was enough to trust him with 279 00:16:04.720 --> 00:16:08.600 your life. And they were also the skets were very 280 00:16:08.679 --> 00:16:13.559 well used to Edward Ruloff's melodramatics. You know, he essentially 281 00:16:14.080 --> 00:16:18.320 had hissy fits constantly. So when I tell you what 282 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:20.000 I'm going to tell you about, when he's thrown out 283 00:16:20.120 --> 00:16:22.840 threats and nobody follows up on it or takes it 284 00:16:22.919 --> 00:16:26.559 particularly seriously, it's because they have had so much experience 285 00:16:26.679 --> 00:16:29.759 with his threats and nothing's ever happened that they just 286 00:16:29.879 --> 00:16:31.759 sort of thought, well, this is just more of this 287 00:16:31.919 --> 00:16:36.679 blowhards reaction to not getting his way. So Edward Ruloff 288 00:16:37.559 --> 00:16:42.720 is completely distraught over this affair, which I don't believe 289 00:16:42.759 --> 00:16:46.679 actually happened between Harriet, his wife, and her cousin, doctor Bull. 290 00:16:46.840 --> 00:16:50.320 He's always been threatened by doctor Bull. Ruloff was a 291 00:16:50.960 --> 00:16:54.360 herbal doctor, you know, he would use herbs and it 292 00:16:54.480 --> 00:16:58.480 was a botanical doctor, and doctor Bull was a traditional doctor, 293 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:01.320 and so they were already sort of at odds professionally. 294 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:04.920 But boy Rulolf really disliked doctor Bullet. Doctor Bull would 295 00:17:04.920 --> 00:17:06.759 come in, he was very suave. He would come in 296 00:17:06.799 --> 00:17:10.000 and kiss all the women on the cheek, and this 297 00:17:10.400 --> 00:17:13.559 just incensed rule Off and he because he was very insecure. 298 00:17:13.720 --> 00:17:16.000 What's one thing that people don't understand about people with 299 00:17:16.039 --> 00:17:20.039 psychopathy is they automatically think, well, they're also narcissist. Not true, 300 00:17:20.200 --> 00:17:22.400 They're not always narcissist. And in fact, a lot of 301 00:17:22.400 --> 00:17:26.160 people with psychopathy have incredibly low self esteem, and it's 302 00:17:26.440 --> 00:17:30.799 masked by this grandiose sense of self, by this glibnus 303 00:17:30.960 --> 00:17:36.160 that's fake. So Rulolf was incredibly insecure, and he was 304 00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:41.720 abusive at times to Harriet, to a point where her 305 00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:45.359 brothers intervened and said essentially, if you don't straighten up, 306 00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.880 we're taking her back, which looking through a twenty first 307 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:51.160 century lens, is like, yeah, of course, what else are 308 00:17:51.160 --> 00:17:53.839 they going to say in a nineteenth century lens. That's 309 00:17:53.880 --> 00:17:56.960 pretty extraordinary because once you marry, once a man marries 310 00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.680 a woman, she essentially becomes his property. There's a little autonomy. 311 00:18:00.960 --> 00:18:04.119 So this they had to have been very alarmed to 312 00:18:04.279 --> 00:18:07.119 say we are taking her back if you don't straighten up. 313 00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.920 And you know, rul Off felt slighted by the family constantly, 314 00:18:12.079 --> 00:18:16.559 particularly by her brother William, who she was very close with. 315 00:18:16.880 --> 00:18:20.960 And William had a wife named Amelia, and then Amelia 316 00:18:21.680 --> 00:18:25.799 and Priscilla, who was Ruloff's daughter, were born very close 317 00:18:25.839 --> 00:18:29.079 together within months, so they were both young babies. Amelia 318 00:18:29.319 --> 00:18:32.359 had just been had just given birth, and she and 319 00:18:33.039 --> 00:18:35.960 her daughter had both become very sick, which would not 320 00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:40.559 have been unusual at all. The childbirth's deaths were very common. 321 00:18:40.640 --> 00:18:43.799 Of course, these are mostly bacterial infections that happened because 322 00:18:43.799 --> 00:18:45.640 they didn't have the same medicines. 323 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:45.920 And that we have. 324 00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:50.559 And William, in the meantime, as Amelia is getting ready 325 00:18:50.559 --> 00:18:55.119 to give birth, is interacting with Ruloff and Ruloff has said, basically, 326 00:18:55.920 --> 00:18:58.720 you need to get rid of doctor Bull because he 327 00:18:59.000 --> 00:19:02.039 is trying to seduce my wife. And I think that 328 00:19:02.599 --> 00:19:05.279 this needs to stop, and you need to side with me. 329 00:19:05.599 --> 00:19:09.000 I'm your brother in law. And William said no, he 330 00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:11.519 said this, I don't think this is happening. You're paranoid, 331 00:19:11.599 --> 00:19:14.319 you're making this up. You're causing problems in your marriage, 332 00:19:14.680 --> 00:19:16.680 and I am tired of hearing about it. And if 333 00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:20.359 you continue to complain about an affair that doesn't exist, 334 00:19:20.720 --> 00:19:23.759 that I will expel you from this family. So Ruloff 335 00:19:24.559 --> 00:19:27.440 was the most dangerous type of person with psychopathy, which 336 00:19:27.599 --> 00:19:29.920 was he was smart, and he knew when to shut up, 337 00:19:30.119 --> 00:19:32.839 and he was high functioning, and he stopped talking and 338 00:19:33.039 --> 00:19:37.400 just watched and waited. So when Amelia gave birth to 339 00:19:37.519 --> 00:19:41.839 a Meal and they both became very sick, William was 340 00:19:41.960 --> 00:19:45.319 desperate and he saw Edward Ruloff at his family's farm 341 00:19:45.680 --> 00:19:49.319 and he said, come with me, Please, your doctor help her, 342 00:19:49.640 --> 00:19:51.559 and within a day she if she and her daughter 343 00:19:51.640 --> 00:19:55.200 were dead. Now Ruloff could have actually didn't give any 344 00:19:55.240 --> 00:19:59.000 explanation for what happened to him. He sort of said, well, 345 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:01.640 you know, I gave the medicine, and you know, you 346 00:20:01.759 --> 00:20:05.960 kind of crossed her fingers. But when they died and 347 00:20:06.599 --> 00:20:09.640 his mother in law, who was the matriarch of the family, 348 00:20:09.720 --> 00:20:15.240 Hannah Scut, was mourning death these two deaths, he said 349 00:20:15.319 --> 00:20:19.079 to her, you know I killed them. William Scutt did 350 00:20:19.119 --> 00:20:21.759 me wrong. Your son did me wrong. And if things 351 00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:27.240 don't straighten out soon, then Harriet and my child are next. Now, 352 00:20:28.279 --> 00:20:32.599 Hannah did nothing about this because again, no one believed 353 00:20:32.640 --> 00:20:35.440 he was capable of this. No one believed it. He 354 00:20:35.599 --> 00:20:38.640 helped plan the funeral, he went there. You would have 355 00:20:38.799 --> 00:20:41.440 never been able to detect that something was wrong. That's 356 00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:44.359 how good he was. And that's what that lack of 357 00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.640 remorse and that lack of empathy that he demonstrated that 358 00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.720 is so prevalent with people with psychopathy. Also, you know, 359 00:20:51.960 --> 00:20:54.119 is makes him an excellent actor. 360 00:20:54.440 --> 00:20:58.519 Now, he was dissatisfied with the family despite what it well, 361 00:20:58.799 --> 00:21:01.039 given that all the things that it happened, but he 362 00:21:01.039 --> 00:21:03.559 would always pine for this opportunity to be in a 363 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:07.319 big city and to have his ideas heard by academic, 364 00:21:07.960 --> 00:21:11.599 influential people. Tell us what happened when he talks about 365 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:15.119 at least a prestigious academy in Ohio offering him a position. 366 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:20.759 You know, he becomes infuriated when he is given this 367 00:21:20.880 --> 00:21:23.440 incredible opportunity, he says, which is be the head of 368 00:21:23.519 --> 00:21:27.039 a boys academy in Ohio, which hopefully would lead to 369 00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:30.359 an opportunity to be a professor at a university. And 370 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:32.000 that was his dream. And that was the dream that 371 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:34.319 had been taken from him, he said, from his uncle 372 00:21:34.359 --> 00:21:37.559 when he was young. So this was his chance at redemption. 373 00:21:38.160 --> 00:21:41.559 And one thing that's so funny about people with psychopathy 374 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:45.640 not funny, haha, I guess funny strange is I interviewed 375 00:21:45.920 --> 00:21:49.799 for a forensic psychologist whose name is Catherine Ramslin, and 376 00:21:49.880 --> 00:21:54.079 she spent years interviewing Dennis Raider, who was the BTK killer, right, 377 00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:57.839 And she said they all do the same thing. They 378 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:02.119 whine it's the poor me. And she knew Robert Hare 379 00:22:02.480 --> 00:22:06.200 who Crank, came up with the checklist. It's called the 380 00:22:06.240 --> 00:22:09.359 Hairs Checklist for psychicopathy. And it's the list you go 381 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:11.680 through when you check off, you know, and you on. 382 00:22:11.799 --> 00:22:14.559 It's in a rating scale and that's how you decide 383 00:22:14.599 --> 00:22:17.519 if somebody has psychopathy. There's no blood test or anything. 384 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:22.240 And she said she had suggested jokingly to Robert Hare 385 00:22:22.759 --> 00:22:25.559 that you should add whining to your checklist because they 386 00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:29.559 all wine and rule off wind. And he said, I 387 00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:32.279 want to go to Ohio to his wife, you need 388 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:35.160 to come with me. I have been thwarted at every turn. 389 00:22:35.279 --> 00:22:39.200 Your family has degraded me, and they joke about finding 390 00:22:39.279 --> 00:22:42.079 me on the canal as a as a poor canal worker. 391 00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:44.920 And now your wifely duty is to come with me 392 00:22:45.200 --> 00:22:47.200 and we're going to bring Priscilla and you're going to 393 00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:50.039 have a good life. And she said no, She said no, 394 00:22:50.519 --> 00:22:55.039 and this infuriated him. So this was the trigger for him. 395 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:58.200 And we often talk about killers and any kind of 396 00:22:58.319 --> 00:23:02.079 predictability that we can't we're always as a society hoping 397 00:23:02.119 --> 00:23:05.799 to gather information to be able to, if not predict, 398 00:23:06.119 --> 00:23:09.799 at least protect against something that could happen. And so 399 00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:12.160 you're looking for those triggers, and you're looking for those 400 00:23:12.279 --> 00:23:16.200 qualities and the things that should be alarming. And this 401 00:23:16.839 --> 00:23:21.880