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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every
Speaker 6: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 6: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 6: journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Speaker 5: Good Evening. It has been thirty years since Ted Bundy,
Speaker 5: arguably this country's most notorious serial killer, was put to
Speaker 5: death in the electric chair by the State of Florida
Speaker 5: in nineteen eighty nine, but there continues to exist in
Speaker 5: our society a morbid interest in him and the ghastly
Speaker 5: way he murdered and disposed of the women he abducted
Speaker 5: in the seventies. Many people want to know how a
Speaker 5: person could do the things that Ted Bundy did. It's
Speaker 5: truly frightening to think that there are fellow human beings
Speaker 5: who possess such dark desires and act out their murderous
Speaker 5: tendencies on the innocent. In unsuspecting. We tend to think
Speaker 5: of these individuals as inhuman or evil, which is the
Speaker 5: only thing that makes sense to us, because what drives
Speaker 5: Ted Mundy and others like him are not feelings that
Speaker 5: any of us can remotely relate to. In exploring what
Speaker 5: might have been working inside the mind of Ted Bundy,
Speaker 5: the angel of decay triggering him to brutally snuff out
Speaker 5: the lives of so many young women, the purposes not
Speaker 5: to increase his anonymous celebrity or sensationalize his heinous acts,
Speaker 5: but to shatter any such appeal. The only way to
Speaker 5: do that is to remember the women and young girls
Speaker 5: that he killed, not merely as victims, but remembering who
Speaker 5: they were, how they lived, and the impact they had
Speaker 5: on their families as well as those around them. They
Speaker 5: had a lot more in common than being casualties of
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy's violent, psycho sexual desires. The book that we
Speaker 5: were featuring this evening is Ted. Good evening, Paul, and
Speaker 5: welcome to the program.
Speaker 7: Hi, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much. I just wanted to introduce you
Speaker 5: to the audience as the author of this book, Ted Bundy,
Speaker 5: but we had you on on True Murder a few
Speaker 5: years ago with your book called Caught in the Act.
Speaker 5: Before we start to sending you tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about that book and the full title of that book.
Speaker 7: And yeah, yeah, Caught in the Act subtitle is called
Speaker 7: A Courageous families fight to save their daughter from a
Speaker 7: serial killer, which people recall. It was a truck driver
Speaker 7: who was getting out of his vehicle in the middle
Speaker 7: of the night, parking it in one of those rest
Speaker 7: stops and dressing up in black and taking knives and
Speaker 7: different instruments with him and going down into the communities
Speaker 7: nearby and looking for unlocked doors to go into and
Speaker 7: search for women to murder. And a family in Chelmston, Massachusetts,
Speaker 7: happened to hear some noise late at night. A couple
Speaker 7: woke up. The father went into the daughter's fifteen year
Speaker 7: old bedroom and saw this giant man and dressed in
Speaker 7: black with a knife over his daughter. Before anything could happen,
Speaker 7: father ended up tackling this this man who was much
Speaker 7: bigger than him, and subdued him until the police got there,
Speaker 7: and they found out that this guy had done this
Speaker 7: two or three times previously and killed and killed women
Speaker 7: in the same fashion.
Speaker 5: Yes, and the full title of that is caught in
Speaker 5: the act.
Speaker 7: Yes, it's called in the Act and it's subtitled Our
Speaker 7: Courageous Families fight to save their daughter from a serial killer,
Speaker 7: which which this gentleman was. I mean he had three
Speaker 7: victims that were that were known, so he was I
Speaker 7: guess he was just starting out and his ventures into
Speaker 7: serial killing. So this family intervened and and stopped save
Speaker 7: the daughter and probably saved who knows how many lives
Speaker 7: because they captured the serial killer in their home.
Speaker 5: Yes, and that was a previous interview on true Murder.
Speaker 5: I suggest people recommend people might take a look at
Speaker 5: have a listen to that. Now for this book, The
Speaker 5: Angel of Decay, before we start about going through some
Speaker 5: I guess interesting things that I hadn't read before or
Speaker 5: were brought up much differently in this book and this
Speaker 5: examination of Ted Bundy. Why did you call this book
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy The Angel of Decay.
Speaker 7: Well, I was looking for various titles. Obviously, Dan, there's
Speaker 7: so many things that have been written about in the past,
Speaker 7: and obviously and recently there's been a renewed interest because
Speaker 7: of the big movie and other social media things that
Speaker 7: are going on with the thirty years since he's been
Speaker 7: put to death. So I was just looking for an
Speaker 7: interesting title, something that would would stand out and would
Speaker 7: interest people to look up. But because I know a
Speaker 7: lot of people are well passed who young people who
Speaker 7: were even younger than me, that don't know too much
Speaker 7: about Ted Bundy, and they are going to rely on
Speaker 7: movies which sensationalize a lot of the facts, and they
Speaker 7: don't get into all the interesting details sometimes that a
Speaker 7: book does. And I wanted to find out what more
Speaker 7: there is because I know there's so much more information
Speaker 7: available now than there was in the past, as far
Speaker 7: as minute details about all of the girls. All lot
Speaker 7: of them have various websites where their friends families have
Speaker 7: things posted now where they talk about the lives of
Speaker 7: these girls, and I thought that was the important thing here,
Speaker 7: not just to detail the grisly crimes that the Bundy committed,
Speaker 7: which people most like it and to know about.
Speaker 5: Let's start off with the origins of Ted Bundy, and
Speaker 5: you talk about his grandfather, Samuel Cowell's influence. So tell
Speaker 5: us who Samuel Cowell was, and then some of the
Speaker 5: characteristics of his behavior before we talk about more of
Speaker 5: the influence later when he was adopted by John Culpeper
Speaker 5: Bundy later on tell us Samuel Cowlell's influence.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, if you know anything about I've read
Speaker 7: about Sam Cowell, he's you know, an interesting relationship that
Speaker 7: he had with Ted. Because Sam Cowell was known around
Speaker 7: his not just immediate family, but around the neighborhood as
Speaker 7: a pretty nasty gentleman, abusive verbally, abusive, belief to have
Speaker 7: you know, struck his wife. So he was that kind
Speaker 7: of personality where he didn't seem well liked, but he
Speaker 7: happened to be a deacon in his church. And if
Speaker 7: you ever, Ted Bundy never said anything negative about this
Speaker 7: man who everybody else seemed to dislike. So for some reason,
Speaker 7: either Ted Muney didn't want to talk about it and
Speaker 7: he was in denial about what his grandfather might have done,
Speaker 7: or the grandfather somehow didn't didn't abuse him in any
Speaker 7: way verbally or physically. And Ted Mundy has nothing negative
Speaker 7: to say about him, because I was looking everywhere I
Speaker 7: could and he really had nothing but nice things to
Speaker 7: say about this man who was who at the time
Speaker 7: when when Ted was born, he was embarrassed that his
Speaker 7: daughter was having a child out of wedlock and it
Speaker 7: was a stain on the on the family. So that
Speaker 7: that was that was a big influence when Ted was
Speaker 7: deceived early on. And people, your readers, listeners may know
Speaker 7: that Ted was deceived early on who his parents really were.
Speaker 7: His grandfather's pretended to be his father, and his actual
Speaker 7: mother was pretending to be an older sister for a while.
Speaker 7: They tried to get away with that scam. And so
Speaker 7: there's a lot of a lot of family dysfunction that
Speaker 7: was going on early on that you can see might
Speaker 7: have made a young young man feel not normal. As
Speaker 7: we can say that.
Speaker 5: Before we talk about how we learned about specifically about
Speaker 5: his his true parentage. You write about that it was
Speaker 5: known or at least you write about that the grandfather
Speaker 5: tortured animals and had a porn collection and a big
Speaker 5: porn collection. And we will, as we talked later, we
Speaker 5: will talk about what Bundy had said about violent porn,
Speaker 5: as many of the fans might know already. But let's
Speaker 5: talk about the big porn collection and the torturing animals
Speaker 5: information that you found.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I found just a couple of references
Speaker 7: that that reference that wasn't just one, and I do
Speaker 7: with my references that that indicate that the grandfather, Sam Cowell,
Speaker 7: you know, did have a collection of pornography that he
Speaker 7: shared either openly or Ted found it and then observed
Speaker 7: them himself. But it was known that this deacon of
Speaker 7: the church had this this collection, and then that that
Speaker 7: attracted Ted early on. And I know Ted did talk
Speaker 7: about how this, how pornography influenced him later on and
Speaker 7: in life, and his confessions while in prison, how much
Speaker 7: that created his feelings. But a lot of those confessions
Speaker 7: that have to be taken with a grain of salt. Obviously,
Speaker 7: it was the end of his life and he was
Speaker 7: looking for for some reason, and that may not have
Speaker 7: been actual or not, but pornography itself was something that
Speaker 7: the grandfather did have in some amount what's called large
Speaker 7: by large collection for some might not be large, but
Speaker 7: it's it's observed that he did have a pornography collection
Speaker 7: of some kind and that Ted had access to it,
Speaker 7: which may may not be unusual in some families. But
Speaker 7: for Ted, he indicated that this this affected him growing
Speaker 7: up when he became when he turned in, puberty came
Speaker 7: along and he entered middle school, he started to have
Speaker 7: some issues socially with the other children and with confidence
Speaker 7: with women. So it's hot to know exactly how that
Speaker 7: influenced him. But he did observe that he did have
Speaker 7: this collection of pornography that that Ted did have access to.
Speaker 7: There's not much more to it than that, other than
Speaker 7: what Ted said later on and his confessions while he
Speaker 7: was in prison and death row.
Speaker 5: Now, according to what you found, and again there's conflicting information,
Speaker 5: contradictory information. But from everything that you found, how did
Speaker 5: he find out, in particular about the true nature of
Speaker 5: his parentage who his parents really were?
Speaker 7: And Yeah, if anybody who's written about him will he
Speaker 7: may have different opinions or they may list different ways
Speaker 7: that he found out about this from being teased by
Speaker 7: cousins of his that you know, he he was his
Speaker 7: bestard child and he didn't know who his father was
Speaker 7: being teased that way or his mother definitely did not
Speaker 7: let him know. So it was something that was that
Speaker 7: was kept a secret. So it might have been, you know,
Speaker 7: something that was he wanted to know, but she wasn't
Speaker 7: going to give him that information. And Anne Rule actually
Speaker 7: believed that he had gone down to find out and
Speaker 7: researched himself. You know what his parentage was by going,
Speaker 7: you know, to the location where he was born and
Speaker 7: and kind of researching and finding out who gave birth
Speaker 7: to him. But again even Anne Rules says that's that's
Speaker 7: what she believes, and there's no proof of any of that.
Speaker 7: Exactly how he came to learn, you know, who his
Speaker 7: mother uh had had, you know, had sex with to
Speaker 7: have him bring him into this world. So it was
Speaker 7: something that he wanted to know about for his whole life,
Speaker 7: and it's just something that that he never really you know,
Speaker 7: came to terms with, I believe, certainly.
Speaker 5: You say in nineteen fifty. In nineteen fifty, Louise's mother
Speaker 5: and the family moved from Philadelphia to Coma, Washington, And
Speaker 5: you write that Bundy for seemed to miss his grandfather,
Speaker 5: but for a time they were living with his great
Speaker 5: uncle Jack, who impressed Bundy because he was successful. He
Speaker 5: was a college professor who had sent his kids off
Speaker 5: the boarding school, and he seemed to have wealth for himself,
Speaker 5: and he seemed to be successful. But his mother met
Speaker 5: this John Culpeper Bundy at church and they were married
Speaker 5: the next year. As you write, and many other people
Speaker 5: have written as well, it seemed that Ted was forming
Speaker 5: this opinion about based opinion of people based on their
Speaker 5: success and their wealth, despite not growing up what we
Speaker 5: would categorized as poor Tulsibal thing.
Speaker 7: Oh yes, absolutely. I think being you know, middle class
Speaker 7: to to lower middle classes not something that Bundy was,
Speaker 7: uh was interested in for himself. He saw himself as
Speaker 7: something something greater. So when he met this you know
Speaker 7: relative of his was an uncle Jack, I believe college
Speaker 7: professor probably did very well, uh could you know, travel
Speaker 7: and and go on vacation, to do all these things
Speaker 7: that his family could. And so it was something that
Speaker 7: he wanted to achieve have at least have the perception
Speaker 7: of being wealthy. And and that was something that you
Speaker 7: can see early on and I throughout his life too,
Speaker 7: is how he wanted to portray himself. And it was
Speaker 7: something that he could not afford to live in certain
Speaker 7: that lifestyle. So to to achieve that he would steal
Speaker 7: and that that that that was something that he did
Speaker 7: his whole entire life, uh, petty theft and just getting
Speaker 7: what he wanted through any means possible. It seems that
Speaker 7: he was had an affinity for for nice clothes and
Speaker 7: wanted to present himself as a sophisticated and and and
Speaker 7: you know, middle class to upper middle class type type
Speaker 7: of a guy. And you can tell early on at
Speaker 7: how he wanted his father, his uncle Jack, to actually
Speaker 7: adopt him, and he wanted to be in in that family. Actually,
Speaker 7: it was believed that he actually asked his uncle Ted
Speaker 7: if he could adopt him, which was something that was
Speaker 7: pretty insulting to uh to John Bundy, who his mother
Speaker 7: had married. And and by all accounts, John Bundy, his stepfather,
Speaker 7: treated him very well and tried to include him in
Speaker 7: all the family events and and not make him seem
Speaker 7: like an outcast as a step child. So it's just
Speaker 7: something that definitely is in Bundy's personality trait that he
Speaker 7: needed to have that monetary Uh, that stigma that he
Speaker 7: had he had something.
Speaker 5: You right too, that he had a juvenile record based
Speaker 5: on this shoplifting and thieving and getting in minor trouble,
Speaker 5: relatively minor trouble. But at eighteen, of course the juvenile
Speaker 5: record in that state was expunged. But you say at
Speaker 5: that time he began peeping into people's windows. Tell us
Speaker 5: some of the other darker things that he was interested
Speaker 5: in that time.
Speaker 7: Uh, yeah, absolutely, Dan, It seemed that that was something
Speaker 7: he had an interest in. And you know, he he
Speaker 7: talked about how he was interested in those detective magazines
Speaker 7: at the time that came out. They were kind of sallacious, Uh.
Speaker 7: They were pretty strong, R rated magazine type things, and
Speaker 7: they had crime, you know, they were featured crimes and
Speaker 7: they usually violence was involved in them. They would be
Speaker 7: bloody bodies, and it was something a magazine that he enjoyed.
Speaker 7: I guess because they combined you know, pornography with with sex.
Speaker 7: And you can't say that the magazines created that in him.
Speaker 7: They would have to have been something inside him that
Speaker 7: was attracted to that for for some other reason. Because
Speaker 7: you show a magazine like that to different people and
Speaker 7: they're not gonna turn into what he did. So you know,
Speaker 7: he can blame he can him, you know, visualizing and
Speaker 7: seeing those magazines for the reason for what he did.
Speaker 7: But you know he's he'd be smart enough to know
Speaker 7: that that's that's not entirely true. It's a pretty complex
Speaker 7: you know, what what what happens to somebody when they
Speaker 7: when they turn into a serial killer? I was they'
Speaker 7: ball in that way or what influences them along the way?
Speaker 7: There and that's a whole other discussion too, Dan. But
Speaker 7: as far as how he you know, how he got
Speaker 7: into peeping, is it just an adolescent curiosity, which is
Speaker 7: which is one thing, and then that happens as well.
Speaker 7: And again those those children don't turn into serial killers either.
Speaker 7: But this is something that did interest him, you know,
Speaker 7: obviously as a young boy, peeping and the pornography, and
Speaker 7: and it's just something that he he talked about and
Speaker 7: it was it was well known as well, because his
Speaker 7: neighbors would see him and he did get in trouble
Speaker 7: for stealing and doing these different things. And so it's
Speaker 7: just part of what what he was when he was
Speaker 7: a young man.
Speaker 5: You're right though, that his need for at least outwardly anyway,
Speaker 5: but his need for normalcy in He graduated in sixty
Speaker 5: five and then he enrolled at the University of Puget Sound.
Speaker 5: Later next year transferred to the University of Washington, and
Speaker 5: there is where he became romantically involved with the University
Speaker 5: of Washington classmate, and he used a studium. It is
Speaker 5: a studium. Stephanie Brooks, a pretty wealthy girl from California.
Speaker 5: As we talked about this before, but I don't think
Speaker 5: people can get enough of this incredible seems cause and effect.
Speaker 5: Here tell us about this woman and the relationship and
Speaker 5: Ted Bundy's reaction to meeting this woman, what he thought
Speaker 5: of this relationship, and what happened in that relationship.
Speaker 7: Yeah, this is one of the things that many, many
Speaker 7: psychologists will point to us saying, you know, this is
Speaker 7: something that really influenced him and created in anger and
Speaker 7: a need to control because he fell in love with
Speaker 7: this woman, Stephanie Brooks as they call her. She was
Speaker 7: a very pretty, wealthy girl from California. Her family was
Speaker 7: from San Francisco, and she had all the classic looks.
Speaker 7: I guess that he desired with the long dark hair,
Speaker 7: being very pretty and this they whatever relationship they had,
Speaker 7: he wanted more from it, and I guess she wanted
Speaker 7: something differently than what he had to offer her. And
Speaker 7: when he dropped out of college and decided to get
Speaker 7: into politics, he started volunteering. I think at the first
Speaker 7: it was with the Seattle office of the Nelson Rockefeller
Speaker 7: presidential campaign. He got involved in politics and dropped out
Speaker 7: of school, and I guess maybe that that may have
Speaker 7: an influenced turning her off as far as he wasn't
Speaker 7: pursuing an education.
Speaker 5: In a.
Speaker 7: Career somewhere beyond you know, volunteering in politics. So she
Speaker 7: left went to San Francisco to be bet with her family,
Speaker 7: leaving him behind. Officially, you know, they were broken up.
Speaker 7: She she left him, and that devastated him, I believe,
Speaker 7: and most psychologists say the same thing, that he didn't
Speaker 7: know how to handle that rejection, that loss of control.
Speaker 7: That's something that he wanted, that was in his grasp
Speaker 7: and it got away. And then people think that this
Speaker 7: is something that really angered him and set him off
Speaker 7: on a path of what he started to do immediately afterwards.
Speaker 5: And rule and again, she's got a lot of credibility
Speaker 5: with me and almost everyone else. She believed that around
Speaker 5: that time, he drove to Burlington, Vermont and found his
Speaker 5: birth certificate including his real father's name. Although he never
Speaker 5: have said that to investigators, that would account for quite
Speaker 5: a bit, wouldn't it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, you could see how that would set him off
Speaker 7: to that would be a definite start, because he did
Speaker 7: suddenly drive off and drive across country to Philadelphia to
Speaker 7: see his parents, and you could see him stopping off
Speaker 7: in Vermont to actually, you know, find out more and investigate.
Speaker 7: You know, what's what's wrong with me?
Speaker 4: What?
Speaker 7: Why can't I keep a girl? Why am I thinking
Speaker 7: these things? So it might have definitely might have triggered that.
Speaker 7: And again he never admitted. He admitted to many things.
Speaker 7: Bundy admitted to many things he didn't do, many things
Speaker 7: he did do. So it's really hot to say when
Speaker 7: he found out, But I know andrul knew him, spoke
Speaker 7: to him, and I believe she probably had a sense
Speaker 7: about him, even if she wasn't told directly that. This
Speaker 7: is when he found out when he went to investigate
Speaker 7: himself in Vermont, in the in the area where he
Speaker 7: was born, in that home for unwed mothers, where his
Speaker 7: mother gave birth to him.
Speaker 5: Now and shortly after, which is fall nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 5: in Washington again University of Washington, he met Elizabeth Klopfer.
Speaker 5: She was twenty four years old from Salt Lake City.
Speaker 5: He's the secretary at the University of Washington School of
Speaker 5: medicinely divorced with a three year old girl, Tina. What
Speaker 5: I found fascinating was that in your book you have
Speaker 5: much more information about this, again seemingly normal Ted Bundy
Speaker 5: in a family situation with Elizabeth Clofer not his ideal
Speaker 5: type of woman by any means. But tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit, as you write in a book about this
Speaker 5: seemingly normal Ted Bundy in his family situation.
Speaker 7: Yeah, even before the family situation, Dan, when they when
Speaker 7: they first met and you described how how they met
Speaker 7: in a bar and the eyes across you know, that
Speaker 7: whole romantic setting, and how we swept her off her
Speaker 7: feet dancing that night and they spent the night together
Speaker 7: and then the next morning he made breakfast. That just
Speaker 7: starting from that, it was like, you know, this this
Speaker 7: guy is normal or he is he acting normal? Or
Speaker 7: is he is he wrestling with some demon that he's
Speaker 7: got two sides to him. Because the night they had
Speaker 7: together and the relationship that started from that night is uh,
Speaker 7: you wouldn't think it was possible from a man that
Speaker 7: that had would do the things that he was about
Speaker 7: to do. And uh, you know with the three year
Speaker 7: old daughter as well, I mean they got they got
Speaker 7: on like like it was his, uh, his own daughter.
Speaker 7: He treated her so well. By by all accounts, they
Speaker 7: were the perfect couple. He seemed very happy. From outsiders,
Speaker 7: people who knew him, friends of Elizabeth's and she just
Speaker 7: was was all thinking that this is this is the man,
Speaker 7: this is gonna be the one that I'm going to
Speaker 7: settle down with and then raise my daughter with. And
Speaker 7: it seemed to be going so well at that point.
Speaker 7: So if you if the story stopped there, and uh,
Speaker 7: it would be it would be one thing. But it
Speaker 7: but it didn't, and it progressed into into what he
Speaker 7: became in the Serial Killer. But from that point on,
Speaker 7: this this is something that I find fascinating. How he
Speaker 7: could live this life and then all of a sudden
Speaker 7: just just change over into something else. Fascinating.
Speaker 5: Yes, it's interesting too that you had another fascinating detail
Speaker 5: that people might know about. But the parents met and
Speaker 5: it was a good meeting. When he met her parents
Speaker 5: and he again he was still looking for this upper
Speaker 5: middle class existence and he was impressed by it. So
Speaker 5: her dad was a dentist that was appealing to Bundy,
Speaker 5: and her parents liked Ted. Unfortunately, when Elizabeth met his
Speaker 5: mother and stepfather, the tension you write in between the
Speaker 5: mother and Ted was obvious, and it seemed that Ted
Speaker 5: it was a good example of Ted kind of resenting
Speaker 5: his small, humble roots.
Speaker 7: Yeah, absolutely, you know, his stepfather being you know, a cook,
Speaker 7: his mom's secretariat at the Methodist church, and it just
Speaker 7: wasn't what he preferred. I mean, they were they were
Speaker 7: nice people. They treated him so well that that should
Speaker 7: have been enough, and they had enough to get by.
Speaker 7: They wasn't like they were poor. But he just wanted more.
Speaker 7: He wanted that that let's say, you know, a dentist
Speaker 7: is a little bit you know, higher up in his
Speaker 7: his eye as far as uh, you know, what what
Speaker 7: culture and lifestyle can bring. And he wanted that for himself.
Speaker 7: And obviously he thought he was exposed with showing Elizabeth
Speaker 7: his family. He thought that she would be put off
Speaker 7: by the way he would have been by showing him
Speaker 7: his uh, how his family lived, and she wasn't. It
Speaker 7: was really all in his own mind how he perceived
Speaker 7: himself and not how others perceived him. So he he
Speaker 7: you know, he made it through that because she did
Speaker 7: not have any problems with his family. He had the
Speaker 7: problem with his family, and that's something that he always
Speaker 7: carried with him, resentment for their for their you know, income, uh,
Speaker 7: and for his mom for you know, not not telling
Speaker 7: him who his father was. So I think that resentment
Speaker 7: just just continued to grow throughout the years as in
Speaker 7: his adulthood.
Speaker 5: You right, too. Incredible events happened in the early seventies.
Speaker 5: Ted Is twenty four saves a three year old boy
Speaker 5: from drowning and then really receives a second commendation from
Speaker 5: Seattle Police Department. And I'll tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about these acts of heroism. Again, unbelievable considering what he
Speaker 5: ends up being.
Speaker 7: Yeah, and you would think that this guy, what he's
Speaker 7: about to do with his life. He sees a little
Speaker 7: boy struggling in the water, maybe not drowning, but definitely
Speaker 7: in dire straits, and doesn't see anybody else around, his
Speaker 7: parents or anybody else, and he takes the initiative to
Speaker 7: jump into this water and you know, just get him
Speaker 7: out of it while he was struggling. And it's an instinct.
Speaker 7: It's an instinct to save a life. And knowing everything
Speaker 7: people know about Bundy, you would think that his instinct
Speaker 7: is to take lives first. But I mean, obviously it
Speaker 7: was as a three year old child and not not
Speaker 7: his typical victim, but he still took that initiative to
Speaker 7: you know, save a life. And in another instant I
Speaker 7: found out too fascinating was somebody. That's something that he
Speaker 7: did was was steal from women, steal from their purses,
Speaker 7: and a lot of times in supermarkets probably he would,
Speaker 7: you know, when they're not looking, going to their person,
Speaker 7: take money. So that's what he did. And one afternoon
Speaker 7: he's had a mall doing who knows what, but he
Speaker 7: actually was leaving the mall when he saw somebody a
Speaker 7: man steal a woman's purse and run off with it.
Speaker 7: And he would think he would he would be more
Speaker 7: sympathetic to the robber here, but he actually saw this
Speaker 7: happen and went and chased down this this persnatcher and
Speaker 7: received accommodation for that because he did hold the uh,
Speaker 7: the person there until the police came by. So again,
Speaker 7: if it's an act that you normally wouldn't associate, you
Speaker 7: would think that that's that that can't be true, that
Speaker 7: that's made up. There are accounts of this, and obviously
Speaker 7: he got accommodations from the police, so there there's you know,
Speaker 7: records of that and either something happened to him from
Speaker 7: that from that day on or this is these are
Speaker 7: these are two different people working here, one one normal
Speaker 7: type Ted Bundy and one that is gonna go on
Speaker 7: a stereo killing streak like in the next couple of years.
Speaker 7: It's just an amazing, amazing fact to bring to light
Speaker 7: to people who don't may not have known this about
Speaker 7: Ted Bundy.
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Speaker 5: Right. Also, in continuing with this at least look like normalcy,
Speaker 5: he volunteers for the Seattle Suicide Hotline crisis Center, where
Speaker 5: he meets and rule which they become friends. She's fifteen older,
Speaker 5: fifteen years older than Bundy. And he receives his first
Speaker 5: degree in psychology from the University of Washington in nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy two, and again is working in politics for reelection
Speaker 5: in the campaign of Governor Daniel Evans. Yeah now tell us.
Speaker 5: In nineteen seventy three, things seem to have been turned
Speaker 5: around for him, and he's doing the kinds of things
Speaker 5: that are very, very impressive to him, and he's rubbing
Speaker 5: elbows with people, so he's getting the kind of attention
Speaker 5: that he always wanted. This is nineteen seventy three. He's
Speaker 5: been accepted into law schools at the University of Utah
Speaker 5: and the University of Puget Sound and got letters of
Speaker 5: condemnation by people like Governor Governor Evans tell us what
Speaker 5: Ted Bunny's doing at that time, and Stephanie, Oh, yes.
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, definitely, Dan. This is fascinating how he must
Speaker 7: have had this all planned out. Obviously, he got through school,
Speaker 7: got a degree in psychology, and he's entered he's he
Speaker 7: actually got accepted. He hasn't accepted which one yet, but
Speaker 7: he's either he can go to the University of Utah
Speaker 7: or the University of Pugtons Sound to study law. And
Speaker 7: now he's involved in politics again. And he goes on
Speaker 7: this trip that takes him to uh to California for
Speaker 7: for what he's what he's doing in politics, and he figures,
Speaker 7: I'm going to look up my old girlfriend Stephanie Brooks.
Speaker 7: He would think he'd still be bitter, but here he is.
Speaker 7: He goes out and finds her, pursues her, and she's
Speaker 7: very impressed at where he is and in life. Now
Speaker 7: this is, you know, several years later, and she's so
Speaker 7: impressed that she she wants to continue to start to
Speaker 7: see him again. But obviously he has something else on
Speaker 7: his mind. He would think that this would make him
Speaker 7: happy that he achieved something by working hard, getting the
Speaker 7: degree and getting the girl, but he has alternative motives
Speaker 7: in mind here where he shows her a look at
Speaker 7: look at me, Look what I've done, Look what I
Speaker 7: can become, and he all of a sudden, he just
Speaker 7: turns on her and just he basically just dropped out
Speaker 7: of her life without even telling her why. They seem
Speaker 7: to be getting along very well, moving towards something even
Speaker 7: perhaps marriage, when he just stops calling her, avoiding her
Speaker 7: phone calls and all together just not not reaching out her,
Speaker 7: and she doesn't know what's happening. And there's a brief
Speaker 7: conversation that they have that that's been written about where
Speaker 7: she finally does get a hold of him on the
Speaker 7: phone and she demands she's upset, like why are you
Speaker 7: not returning my call with what's going on? And Ted
Speaker 7: Bundy's reply with Stephanie, I have no idea what you mean,
Speaker 7: and then hangs up on her. I mean, it's just
Speaker 7: so you can't even imagine somebody doing something like that.
Speaker 7: How angry he could have been with her for the
Speaker 7: initial breakup that he would, you know, show up on
Speaker 7: her doorstep and engage in trying to gain her love
Speaker 7: back and then just throwing it back in her face.
Speaker 7: As a revengeful tactic like that. It's just it's hard
Speaker 7: to comprehend somebody going through all that, especially with somebody
Speaker 7: that he's supposedly, you know, loved and in a way
Speaker 7: that he he hadn't be So this is this is
Speaker 7: just a fascinating, you know, psychological profile for for anybody
Speaker 7: that studies that kind of thing, I believe, it's just
Speaker 7: it's just really incredible.
Speaker 5: At the same time, what was his relationship with Elizabeth
Speaker 5: and how much did he tell Elizabeth about Stephanie Brooks
Speaker 5: if any?
Speaker 7: Yeah, no, they that was something totally separate. He you know, nobody,
Speaker 7: nobody knew what this guy was doing. Uh, even the
Speaker 7: people closest to him obviously, you know, the thoughts that
Speaker 7: were going through his mind were one thing. But the
Speaker 7: other women he was seeing, he did not let them
Speaker 7: know about that. So that was that was that was
Speaker 7: a secret, like many many things in Bondie's life, was
Speaker 7: a secret he kept from from everybody he did, and
Speaker 7: he may even have other other girls. There was speculation
Speaker 7: that he had of the date, was going on dates
Speaker 7: when he was in different times in school, when he
Speaker 7: was in college, and uh, it is hot to find
Speaker 7: a lot of these women who he dated to find
Speaker 7: out what he was like. But uh, he did date,
Speaker 7: and he he did he did go out on with
Speaker 7: these women and Elizabeth knew nothing about it.
Speaker 5: You right, that about that time, young women in the
Speaker 5: Pacific Northwest began to disappear by the spring of nineteen
Speaker 5: seventy four. What was Ted Bundy doing in terms of school,
Speaker 5: in terms of his career, what happened and what were
Speaker 5: the first reported women that disappeared?
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, actually, Daniel, it was right after he threw
Speaker 7: through Stephanie Stephanie Brooks overboard and then told her to
Speaker 7: get lost. This is really when the victims began. The
Speaker 7: first victim survived. It was Karen Sparks and that was
Speaker 7: in January fourth, nineteen seventy four. She survived a brutal attack.
Speaker 7: I mean it really was. It was horrible. I mean,
Speaker 7: she survived, but it left her with permanent injuries, brain
Speaker 7: damage and other internal organ injuries. And it was the
Speaker 7: first known attack by Bundy. There's been speculation that he
Speaker 7: had other victims before that. With the book addresses and
Speaker 7: there are numerous places I found information that their possibilities
Speaker 7: the people he may have killed. But this is the
Speaker 7: first actual known victim of his and it began January
Speaker 7: right after, right after this breakup with Stephanie Brooks, and
Speaker 7: it continued. It was immediately right away. There was another
Speaker 7: one on January fourth, a few days later. Karen's box
Speaker 7: was the first one. She was only yeah, she was eighteen,
Speaker 7: all right, she was eighteen. So on February first, he
Speaker 7: killed twenty one year old Linda Ann Heally. That was
Speaker 7: his first victim that he killed. So right now that
Speaker 7: there's a spiral going on, and it happens, it happened
Speaker 7: very quickly. How we started to get on this this
Speaker 7: path of destruction. It seemed that breakup with Brooks set
Speaker 7: him off, because he just went on on a spree.
Speaker 7: It seems like about one a month right through the summer,
Speaker 7: from January through June, all in the Washington, Oregon are
Speaker 7: Pacific northwest, where he six women went missing right away,
Speaker 7: and nobody knew he was doing this, not his girlfriend,
Speaker 7: not anybody. So this was something that was a big,
Speaker 7: big news item going on at the time. Six months,
Speaker 7: six victims, all in the same area.
Speaker 5: Very interesting. In your book, you have a person I've
Speaker 5: never read about specifically, was a Marilynn Chino was best
Speaker 5: friends with Elizabeth, and so you write about her impressions
Speaker 5: of Ted Bundy at that time. Tell us a little
Speaker 5: bit about Marilynn Gino because she's important to the story
Speaker 5: a little bit later, as of course, Elizabeth's importance grows
Speaker 5: in the Bundy story as well.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, Gino was somebody that you probably don't
Speaker 7: get too much if you read about her. There are
Speaker 7: quite a few of you surprisingly, quite a few videos.
Speaker 7: She's done some interviews that more recently than than in
Speaker 7: the far past, so these are something that you'll find currently.
Speaker 7: And that's how I found a very open woman who
Speaker 7: spoke about her friendship with Elizabeth, and she got to
Speaker 7: know Ted through that that that friendship with her best friend,
Speaker 7: and she found Ted to be interesting, non threatening. He
Speaker 7: was somebody that she could talk to about politics, which
Speaker 7: was something that she liked to do. And it was
Speaker 7: just fascinating how this woman had no clue about what
Speaker 7: Ted was like. I mean, obviously he was putting on
Speaker 7: a persona, you know, for Elizabeth and for for everybody,
Speaker 7: what his true nature was. He was something that he
Speaker 7: was hiding. So yeah, she knowed at first, you know,
Speaker 7: it was charmed as well by by Ted, but later on,
Speaker 7: as the body count starts to accumulate, and there was
Speaker 7: eventually a sketch was done by a police artist showing
Speaker 7: somebody that looked pretty much liked Ted almost exactly, and
Speaker 7: describing a VW bug that he drove. I mean this
Speaker 7: these are things that maybe Elizabeth didn't want to process
Speaker 7: and admit to herself. And it was it was Chino
Speaker 7: who who kind of like told her, you know, this
Speaker 7: is this can't be a coincidence. I mean that this
Speaker 7: could be you know, your boyfriend here. And she's the
Speaker 7: one that initiated him that you should look into this
Speaker 7: a little more deeply think about this, and she's the
Speaker 7: one that convinced him her eventually to Elizabeth to call
Speaker 7: the police and tell them that, you know what, I
Speaker 7: think the tend that you're looking for is my Ted
Speaker 7: that I've been dating Ted Bundy. So it really she
Speaker 7: really had an influence in Elizabeth and helping her see
Speaker 7: you know what other people were saying that she could not.
Speaker 5: It's interesting too that you you you talk about the
Speaker 5: Elizabeth calling authorities after Gino urges her to do so,
Speaker 5: and and yet and she tells the police. I don't know.
Speaker 5: She calls them three separate times. Yeah, the first time,
Speaker 5: I don't know if it's the first of the second
Speaker 5: time she actually tells them, hey, this is what the
Speaker 5: kind of things that he has in his car and
Speaker 5: lists those things as you do in the book. Tell
Speaker 5: us which one of these conversations where she tells police
Speaker 5: some of the things that are in the car and
Speaker 5: tell us some of the contents that she lists.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, she she gave them a lot of information.
Speaker 7: It wasn't just you know, basically leaving your name and
Speaker 7: your number. And I believe because a lot of people
Speaker 7: were calling in saying, you know what I like anytime
Speaker 7: this this kind of thing's happened, you will get a
Speaker 7: lot of people calling and saying, I think I know
Speaker 7: who the killer is. And so obviously she was put
Speaker 7: on on a list. But she gave a lot of
Speaker 7: information that you would think would stick out. The strange
Speaker 7: behavior that that he was, you know, that he was
Speaker 7: performing even on her, that he that that she realized
Speaker 7: was odd only only later on. At first when it
Speaker 7: was happening, she didn't think it was it was too odd.
Speaker 7: For instance, on a on a July fourth rafting trip.
Speaker 7: They were together, just going down paddling on one of
Speaker 7: those one of those rafts blow up rafts, and uh,
Speaker 7: all of a sudden and Ted just throws her overboard. Basically,
Speaker 7: she's sitting on the edge and he pushes her into
Speaker 7: the water, and she's struggling to get back into the boat,
Speaker 7: and he is not assisting her at all. He's just
Speaker 7: sitting there, according to her, with this blank stare on
Speaker 7: his face, just looking off in the distance, and she's
Speaker 7: struggling to get back in the boat. And she just
Speaker 7: thought it was odd, but she didn't think too much
Speaker 7: of it until all of these things accumulated and she
Speaker 7: confessed to the police that, you know what, this guy
Speaker 7: has a has these tools in his car and even
Speaker 7: in my car, things like like lug wrenches and and
Speaker 7: things that he doesn't use for anything because he's not
Speaker 7: very handy in that way. But there were crutches in there,
Speaker 7: they were knives, there was meat cleaver. So all these
Speaker 7: things together just struck her as odd. And she reported
Speaker 7: all this stuff to the police, who just took the
Speaker 7: information and said, thanks, we'll call you back if we
Speaker 7: need you. So it wasn't registering that or the police
Speaker 7: were so overwhelmed with what they were getting they had
Speaker 7: to sort through things one at a time, and they
Speaker 7: didn't get to it quickly enough for sure, because a
Speaker 7: lot more women were about to be killed. So it
Speaker 7: was just something that she reported. Yet she continued to
Speaker 7: date him, which was another just another odd thing. Why
Speaker 7: you if you suspected your boyfriend of being a killer,
Speaker 7: that you would continue a relationship, which which she did.
Speaker 5: In this Yes, you write in this that once there
Speaker 5: was reports of six missing women along with the brutal
Speaker 5: beating of Karen Sparks and an ap period in newspapers
Speaker 5: and TV throughout Washington and Oregon. You talk about a
Speaker 5: cloud of fear, how it over the population, and then
Speaker 5: he found a similar Much of this information is that
Speaker 5: he struck out a few times so that later people
Speaker 5: came forward and said this was you know, the similar
Speaker 5: adoption attempt was ascertained by police. You talk about Bundy
Speaker 5: working at in Olympia at the Department of Energy Services,
Speaker 5: state government agency, which you write and I'd never read
Speaker 5: this before, among other things, was involved in the search
Speaker 5: for these missing women, and there is where Bundy met
Speaker 5: Carol Ane Boone tell us about all of this.
Speaker 7: Yeah, that's fascinating too. So you figure, you know, he's
Speaker 7: working at he was working at that hotline for, you know,
Speaker 7: suicide crisis highline before that. And you think some people
Speaker 7: believe that he liked to be around people under that
Speaker 7: kind of stress, people who were desperate. What he enjoyed
Speaker 7: from that, I don't know, but he could not have
Speaker 7: been doing it to help people. Didn't seem at that
Speaker 7: time that he was he was in that mode. So
Speaker 7: they had to be something he was doing, uh, involved
Speaker 7: in suicide hotline for. But then when he met yeah,
Speaker 7: when he met Carol working for the Department Energy Services DS. Yeah,
Speaker 7: it was a state a state government agency, and yeah,
Speaker 7: one of the things they were doing was involved in
Speaker 7: finding those those missing women. So maybe he wanted to
Speaker 7: have a little uh his pulse on what uh the
Speaker 7: police knew, what the investigators were doing, how close they
Speaker 7: were getting to to the solving the crime to him
Speaker 7: maybe and he wanted to uh And strange enough, that's
Speaker 7: when uh, you know him, he and Carol and Boone
Speaker 7: met someone who would be a major part of his
Speaker 7: life later on. And you know, another woman who was
Speaker 7: you know, captivated by him in a an entirely an
Speaker 7: entirely different way, obviously because of the realtionship they had,
Speaker 7: but that's where they met, and it's it's a fascinating account.
Speaker 7: I do kind of describe what I've what I've read
Speaker 7: about about the beginning of their relationship. And she had
Speaker 7: a son at the time, teenage son, James. She was divorced,
Speaker 7: and there's not too much written. I wanted to find
Speaker 7: out more about actually James at the time, and there's
Speaker 7: not a lot written about Carolyne Boone's son James until
Speaker 7: actually later on. There's a little bit when when Ted's
Speaker 7: in prison on death row, the sun comes to visit
Speaker 7: Ted quite a bit near the very end, but there's
Speaker 7: is not too much written about James.
Speaker 5: Yes, very interesting. Let's use this, Paul just for a
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Speaker 5: s h U d d e R. Now, Paul, we
Speaker 5: were talking about the very important women in Ted's life.
Speaker 5: But he just met and started interacting with Carol Anne Boone,
Speaker 5: and you mentioned later on in Death Row the very
Speaker 5: interesting Uh, she's not visiting him anymore, but he ends
Speaker 5: up the son James ends up visiting Bundy in prison.
Speaker 5: We'll get you to talk about that a little bit later.
Speaker 5: Now with these with the of course, Bundy moves from
Speaker 5: state to state, and from Utah he moves to Colorado. Yes,
Speaker 5: let's talk about Carol Anne Boone. And let's also talk
Speaker 5: about Bundy. Once he is is being hunted, we'll say
Speaker 5: he's being known there. The word is that Ted is
Speaker 5: a suspect. Tell us a little bit about that.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, well, when he becomes a suspect. It's it's
Speaker 7: it's not something that people are sure about, even the
Speaker 7: police who find him when he's first even when he
Speaker 7: first caption and caught in Utah. I mean, he's got
Speaker 7: these tools in his car, and he's got this uh
Speaker 7: this car, this car seat in the in the front
Speaker 7: that's now in the back, and all these these signs
Speaker 7: that appoint you to this guy is doing more than
Speaker 7: what the burglarizing places, because you know, this is there's
Speaker 7: just there's not enough evidence had to show that. But
Speaker 7: they all had a hunch she was he was up
Speaker 7: to no good, and but there was no evidence there
Speaker 7: was obviously there's nobody to collaborate what he did. He
Speaker 7: he he killed all his victims, and when he becomes
Speaker 7: a suspect, you know, his his girlfriend continues, Elizabeth continues
Speaker 7: to call the police, like you said it was.
Speaker 3: It was.
Speaker 7: It was three times, three separate times in three different jurisdictions,
Speaker 7: when you know, in Washington and then in in uh
Speaker 7: in Idaho, there's the Colorado authorities are looking for him,
Speaker 7: and and she's letting them know that I believe, you know,
Speaker 7: my boyfriend might be responsible. His name is Teddy looks
Speaker 7: like the sketches. He drives the Volkswagen, and he's just
Speaker 7: still on this list of of possible people who could
Speaker 7: do this, but he's still not not quite up there yet.
Speaker 7: And it does it takes, unfortunately, it takes too many
Speaker 7: more victims for them to you know, to get to him,
Speaker 7: to just sort through all the other information that they've
Speaker 7: they've been getting. So it's really, you know, sad that
Speaker 7: it took. It took three different you know, state authorities
Speaker 7: investigating these crimes to figure out that, you know, he
Speaker 7: was the one and to stop him. So it's kind
Speaker 7: of it's it's sad that I'm in researching this, going
Speaker 7: through all the victims, and it's just it's overwhelming to
Speaker 7: look at them. And it's thought that a book like this,
Speaker 7: where you find out all this information about all these
Speaker 7: women who just were young and had their whole life
Speaker 7: ahead of them, very very sad, And it's just unfortunately
Speaker 7: the police didn't have the ability they have today to
Speaker 7: communicate and the different technologies that they have, because this
Speaker 7: never would have happened today. Just all the different seeds
Speaker 7: if you look at them, what would have happened with
Speaker 7: cameras and different people witnesses, how they would have found
Speaker 7: him earlier. That's what struck me is that this just
Speaker 7: should not have happened today. It wouldn't be forty years ago.
Speaker 7: It was just a different time.
Speaker 5: What's interesting you obviously include every single attack, You include
Speaker 5: possible victims. You include the victims that basically have been
Speaker 5: proven basically from forensic evidence later on and DNA, and
Speaker 5: you know where the skulls were separated from the bodies.
Speaker 5: So these are confirmations that are well known, and you
Speaker 5: list to some potential victims. What's found interesting is of
Speaker 5: course the assertion that Bundy killed when he was a
Speaker 5: paperboy at fourteen. You've included this, and some people discuss
Speaker 5: it differently. Why do you think this is possible? And
Speaker 5: tell us about was interesting was Anne Marie Burr's father
Speaker 5: and the information about seeing Bundy on the construction site.
Speaker 5: Tell us about that. I had never read about that
Speaker 5: particular detail before. Tell us about Ann Reaperr.
Speaker 7: Oh, yeah, I mean this was yeah, August, yeah, thirty first,
Speaker 7: nineteen sixty one. I believe in you know, Bundy would
Speaker 7: have been fourteen years old, had to believe he had
Speaker 7: a paper route, but as a paper boy I mean,
Speaker 7: you would think of somebody that that was a serial killer.
Speaker 7: That was if you believe you're born with this desire
Speaker 7: early on, it should show itself in some way, some attempt,
Speaker 7: some thought, some action, and this would be in line
Speaker 7: with that. You know, fourteen and puberty is set in
Speaker 7: and he has access. He's you know, a paper boy.
Speaker 7: This is something you can look into houses, you know
Speaker 7: who lives there, doors, windows, and this this you know,
Speaker 7: this young girl went missing and you know, Ted Bundy
Speaker 7: is in the neighborhood. He's a paper boy and even
Speaker 7: you know and rule and I believe that this was
Speaker 7: possible that he might have been he might have killed
Speaker 7: this eight year old girls in Tacoma, Washington. And as
Speaker 7: far as details go, I mean, she she disappeared. But
Speaker 7: the father of this young girl believes that you know, Ted,
Speaker 7: Ted did this. And obviously many years lady look back
Speaker 7: and you say, look, look this, this Ted Bundy was
Speaker 7: a young child in my neighborhood and my girl was
Speaker 7: missing and Ted was was just seen at a you know,
Speaker 7: a local little area. There was like a little construction
Speaker 7: site where Ted was seen and his father extrapolated that
Speaker 7: you know, maybe he did this and was burying the
Speaker 7: body up there when I saw him in that construction site,
Speaker 7: in that pile of pile of dirt. But there's no
Speaker 7: proof nothing was ever found, and even Ted Bundy went
Speaker 7: to the extreme of writing a letter in nineteen eighty
Speaker 7: six to the Burr family saying that you know that
Speaker 7: these are rumors that about him. He did not have
Speaker 7: anything to do with the girl's disappearance, and this was
Speaker 7: on death row, so he would have had nothing to
Speaker 7: gain or lose by admitting to another crime if he
Speaker 7: committed it. So some people still believe he was lying,
Speaker 7: as he did so often, and others believed that this
Speaker 7: it just didn't happen. So it's really almost something that
Speaker 7: each individual has to talk about and make make good
Speaker 7: in their own mind because there's no way to know
Speaker 7: either way what happened when both people people deny it
Speaker 7: and other people will speculate that it might have happened.
Speaker 7: So it's just fascinating to know that this possibly did happen,
Speaker 7: but there is no proof.
Speaker 5: To lend credence to the idea though that you write,
Speaker 5: and I've read this before, that the child was known
Speaker 5: to Ted Bundy and was actually known to hang around
Speaker 5: ted Bundy and was not attracted to him, but they
Speaker 5: were playmates in sort of some way, and she had
Speaker 5: even been seen just holding onto his pant leg.
Speaker 7: So yes that they were. They weren't like strangers like
Speaker 7: that that did. They did know each other well enough
Speaker 7: to talk and say hi. And he being a little
Speaker 7: bit older on his bike, she being younger, she would
Speaker 7: you know, chase them down the road and be friendly
Speaker 7: in that way. So he might have felt like, you
Speaker 7: know what, there's something maybe I can get away with this,
Speaker 7: because she did disappear in the middle of the night
Speaker 7: and she was in her room, which was one of
Speaker 7: those strange disappearances like that. And to have somebody known
Speaker 7: to you to let them in the house, that's always
Speaker 7: how it works. It's people believed that investigative believed that
Speaker 7: it was somebody known to the to her and had
Speaker 7: access to the house and knew the layout of the house,
Speaker 7: which he certainly would have. But like I said, it
Speaker 7: could have been him. He did have the opportunity, and
Speaker 7: you know what motive they would be besides uh, those
Speaker 7: those feelings of uh destroying other lives that that was
Speaker 7: going on in his mind. Besides that, there was really
Speaker 7: no no a way to know that he did that,
Speaker 7: but they said it is interesting and it is possible
Speaker 7: that he still may have done that even though he
Speaker 7: denied it and that there's no real physical evidence proving it.
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Speaker 5: We have to skip ahead just for purpose of brevity here,
Speaker 5: but were for Kyomega for practical purposes. After Kyomega, after
Speaker 5: those brutal murders and his final descent into madness and
Speaker 5: murder so many people in at one time he was
Speaker 5: obsessed to kill and maim and try to destroy and
Speaker 5: snuff out their lives. And then you talk about in
Speaker 5: the book in some length about all of the various
Speaker 5: things that he did say, what he did confess to,
Speaker 5: what he did allude to, the various confessions even right
Speaker 5: up to the very end with doctor Dobson said, some
Speaker 5: things at least have to be considered important.
Speaker 3: Uh.
Speaker 5: And Stephen Leshad is the author that wrote the book
Speaker 5: with Bundy about Bundy. UH had a lot of things
Speaker 5: that Bundy had said and has been published and known.
Speaker 5: Tell us a little bit about those confessions and what
Speaker 5: they told you in their entirety. What you can deduce
Speaker 5: from some of those well, all of those confessions and.
Speaker 7: Yessions, Yeah, Dan, and there was there was, There were
Speaker 7: so many, especially at the end. I mean I grew
Speaker 7: up when I was growing up, Ted Bundy was in jail,
Speaker 7: and a lot of the stuff was coming out about
Speaker 7: what he said and what he did. They were looking
Speaker 7: for more bodies, and I remember just thinking that and
Speaker 7: people reporting that he was just making these things up
Speaker 7: to prolong try to get a stay of execution, to
Speaker 7: help people find bodies instead of, you know, avoiding being
Speaker 7: executed quickly. But there was so many things that he said,
Speaker 7: and it was frustrating in a way to research a
Speaker 7: lot of that because what he said. A lot of
Speaker 7: the things he said couldn't be proved. I mean, and
Speaker 7: all the victims that he that he listed the information
Speaker 7: about them, there's nobody else that could tell authorities what
Speaker 7: happened other than him, so he had to rely on
Speaker 7: on his words. When they knew that he was lying
Speaker 7: about a lot of a lot of the different things
Speaker 7: he confessed. He confessed to killing people with women that
Speaker 7: he didn't kill. We knew that. They knew that he
Speaker 7: killed certain women that he didn't talk about. He didn't
Speaker 7: give any details at all about what he did with
Speaker 7: these women and where they were. So it was very
Speaker 7: frustrating trying to put these things together because there were
Speaker 7: so many victims and several dump sites and sometimes the
Speaker 7: head would have been removed, and so there's no detail
Speaker 7: of how the head was removed where some believe he
Speaker 7: took them the heads home with him, grizzly as that sounds,
Speaker 7: and then buried them in another side. So and I
Speaker 7: do try to get my finger, my hands on a
Speaker 7: lot of that information, and I do list everything where
Speaker 7: all the bodies were found, where all the victims were,
Speaker 7: how they were handled by him, and but there's no
Speaker 7: real way to know what he did because he didn't
Speaker 7: confess to everything. It was just minute details, and he
Speaker 7: left out the larger parts of everything, what he did
Speaker 7: with the women and where he disposed of their bodies afterwards.
Speaker 7: It just wasn't enough information. And I think that's that's
Speaker 7: what he kept from from authorities because I think he knew.
Speaker 7: He thought that, you know what, I'm gonna give him
Speaker 7: a little bit at a time, and this will prolong
Speaker 7: my death sentence. And but it just wasn't gonna happen
Speaker 7: because the governor of Florida was not about to let him, uh,
Speaker 7: you know, be in charge of his own death this way.
Speaker 7: They were going to set a time and when the
Speaker 7: courts said that your times up, then your times up.
Speaker 7: So it was very frustrating for me to find out
Speaker 7: where all these women were what became of them, if
Speaker 7: that makes sense.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. It's interesting that there's again lots of speculation
Speaker 5: that he brought the heads home, but you don't get
Speaker 5: so much confirmation for some of the stuff. It's it's
Speaker 5: I guess there's an inference, certainly, but you talk about
Speaker 5: actual confirmation of some of the things that he said
Speaker 5: regarding posing, makeup, dressing up. Tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: about what you write in your book about that.
Speaker 7: Yeah, there were a couple of times he did admit
Speaker 7: that he would, you know, spend some time with some
Speaker 7: of the bodies. He would go and visit them multiple
Speaker 7: times as they were you know, decomposing, uh, and the
Speaker 7: sometimes spend the night with them in the woods. Obviously.
Speaker 7: Sometimes he had even admitted to having you know, sex
Speaker 7: and necrophilia was a part of the ritual. But you know,
Speaker 7: so we're you know, shampooing and he must have you know,
Speaker 7: brought shampoo to to shampoo their hair and apply even
Speaker 7: apply makeup and nail polish to some of the victims
Speaker 7: you mentioned Melissa Smith is one of them, and Laura Amy,
Speaker 7: who were victims of his, and he described that, yeah,
Speaker 7: I went there and I would put clothes on them
Speaker 7: as well, because some of the victims were found with
Speaker 7: clothes that did not belong to them, so he had
Speaker 7: so he would be doing these things, and he mentioned it,
Speaker 7: you know, offhand, that he did that like it was
Speaker 7: no big deal. There's certain times he would mention it,
Speaker 7: but it wasn't something he gave in great detail. He
Speaker 7: would just mention basically what I did, without going into
Speaker 7: any detail. And obviously he might have been doing this
Speaker 7: all along to many of the victims, but he didn't
Speaker 7: admit to it besides these few cases. So you got
Speaker 7: to assume that these if he had a proclivity for
Speaker 7: this kind of activity, it was something he did to
Speaker 7: many of the victims and not just the couple that
Speaker 7: he mentioned. So it just it just leaves a bad
Speaker 7: tasting mouth because it's like, you wonder if if he
Speaker 7: was going into these these dumb sizes after the bodies
Speaker 7: would first drop there by him and he was carrying
Speaker 7: on with him in this way. It's just something you don't,
Speaker 7: I guess you don't want to think about, And maybe
Speaker 7: he didn't want people to think that about him either
Speaker 7: because he didn't he didn't offer much detail at all
Speaker 7: about the activities with even the beheadings, how they were
Speaker 7: done and which you know, which ones were carried out where.
Speaker 7: It's just it's just grizzly to think about. And but obviously,
Speaker 7: you know, authorities, that's their job, but they just really
Speaker 7: couldn't get couldn't get it out of him all the
Speaker 7: information that was needed.
Speaker 5: Interesting you write in about and I've read this before,
Speaker 5: but more detail in your book the trial in Miami,
Speaker 5: Carol am Boone and Bundy become very close, and her
Speaker 5: and her son actually moved to Florida to be near Bundy,
Speaker 5: unbelievably despite the information that she was hearing reading and
Speaker 5: must have known. I mean, tell us a little bit
Speaker 5: more about Caroline Boone and what happens with.
Speaker 7: Yeah, well, she held out hope that you know, this
Speaker 7: is this is not her her ted even though she
Speaker 7: must have known deep down it was. But she she
Speaker 7: she stayed by his side through you know, through all this,
Speaker 7: right up and right up until right up until the end.
Speaker 7: I mean, it is something that it's hard to believe
Speaker 7: with all the evidence and all the victims, that you know,
Speaker 7: she would stick by him, and obviously they they became
Speaker 7: so close that she wanted to be with him. She
Speaker 7: moved there, her and her son. But he also decided
Speaker 7: to uh propose marriage to her during during during court
Speaker 7: and uh it was it was legal because he asked
Speaker 7: her in front of a judge and her accepting it
Speaker 7: and uh, in that situation was made it to legal legal,
Speaker 7: you know, legal marriage for them. And what was fascinating
Speaker 7: was that they decided to even go ahead and try
Speaker 7: to have a child. Somehow they even though conjugal visits
Speaker 7: were not permitted at the at the institution where he
Speaker 7: was staying in Florida, they they found a way. They
Speaker 7: had a guard who would turn his back for a
Speaker 7: lot of the inmates for for a certain amount of
Speaker 7: money and would allow the inmate and the woman to conjugate.
Speaker 7: And uh, this is what Ted Bundy did. He had
Speaker 7: he had money and he paid a guard to turn
Speaker 7: turn aside one afternoon and uh, maybe it was more
Speaker 7: than one afternoon, but it was believed that it was
Speaker 7: at some point she she was impregnated by Ted Bundy
Speaker 7: in the prison with with a guard who was not
Speaker 7: h had his back turned and she became pregnant and
Speaker 7: had a child, you know, nine months nine months later
Speaker 7: rose Rose Boone and that that's a fascinating chapter that
Speaker 7: I do detail what what went on in the prison
Speaker 7: was believed to have gone on, and how these inmates,
Speaker 7: uh you know, collected money for for this kind activity.
Speaker 7: It's pretty amazing and it's not surprising, but it's still
Speaker 7: still amazing.
Speaker 5: I think, yeah, you right that Boone died in twenty twelve,
Speaker 5: but the daughter of Roses whereabouts have been kept secret.
Speaker 5: Then no one knows where she is, probably luckily on
Speaker 5: her behalf.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, you would think that they would be investigators,
Speaker 7: you know, trying to you know, get that story out
Speaker 7: of But whatever however she did that she changed her name,
Speaker 7: moved out of the country, who knows where. But it's
Speaker 7: fascinating that no one's been able to find her. She
Speaker 7: hasn't come out to want to speak or write a
Speaker 7: book or do any of those things. And you can
Speaker 7: understand why, but you always think that, you know, somehow
Speaker 7: some reporter can can find out and then get the truth.
Speaker 7: But it's just maybe they're respecting her right to privacy,
Speaker 7: and it's it's got to be an awful stain on
Speaker 7: a family to have that kind of legacy, and you know,
Speaker 7: it's just it's just fortunate that they they've been able
Speaker 7: to stay away from her, and fortunate it wasn't you know,
Speaker 7: if it was a male child, you would wonder if
Speaker 7: he would be born with the same kinds of affliction
Speaker 7: Ted had, And if there was a serial killing going on,
Speaker 7: would they presume that, you know what, Ted Bundy's child,
Speaker 7: Ted Brundie's son is responsible. So it's just one of
Speaker 7: those things where we're glad that she's hopefully having a
Speaker 7: good and normal life.
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: You right too. Up to as many as two hundred
Speaker 5: letters per day from women fans writing to Bundy, and
Speaker 5: he corresponded with many of them right up to the
Speaker 5: very end, up to two hundred letters a day.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, he was. He was a celebrity to
Speaker 7: a lot of women, and even today you can see
Speaker 7: how there's still a fascination with him, and a lot
Speaker 7: of women too are I know, many of that that
Speaker 7: are interested in the story. They're not in the grizzly
Speaker 7: details of what he did, but there is some you know,
Speaker 7: fascination that still continues to linger and a lot of
Speaker 7: myths about him that you know, need to be debunked
Speaker 7: because how he is portrayed was probably not anywhere near
Speaker 7: what he was like in real life as far as
Speaker 7: his ability to you know, gain the women's at tension
Speaker 7: the way people think he did. I mean, obviously Elizabeth
Speaker 7: was somebody didn't seem to fit his profile. Maybe he
Speaker 7: saw some week to send her that that he could,
Speaker 7: that he could benefit from and exploit. But a lot
Speaker 7: of the times, just doing the research I did, a
Speaker 7: lot of the people, the women that survived attempted attacks
Speaker 7: from him, described him in ways that were not flattering
Speaker 7: as far as being stammering, he couldn't speak well, he
Speaker 7: had trouble even Actually a lot of the times some
Speaker 7: of the women thought he was drunk. Some of them
Speaker 7: smelled alcohol on them. So and that's another thing that's
Speaker 7: that's not talk about often, just how much he drank.
Speaker 7: There's really no way to gauge that. He didn't talk
Speaker 7: too much about it, but it was obviously something that
Speaker 7: he he drank a lot. He was always at the bars,
Speaker 7: and he was probably he was probably drunk when he
Speaker 7: made these when he killed these women. So it's really
Speaker 7: fascinating to know, I wish there was more information about
Speaker 7: how much alcohol he drank, what and where and how
Speaker 7: that influenced his behavior, if he needed it to get
Speaker 7: through what he was doing, or being drunk something that
Speaker 7: made it something that he could do more easily. It's
Speaker 7: just not enough information out there. It's just unfortunate.
Speaker 5: It's fascinating to read about all these women's particular cases
Speaker 5: where they were attacked, where some survived, where like in
Speaker 5: the sorority houses, where there were witnesses to this. At
Speaker 5: first they didn't even know what had happened to their roommates.
Speaker 5: But it's even more fascinating for the stories that you
Speaker 5: have included here where the victims narrowly missed the clutches
Speaker 5: of Ted bun Be. You know, either he was too
Speaker 5: drunk or they thought something they felt something instinctively was
Speaker 5: off and so they didn't put themselves in the same
Speaker 5: situation as the other victims were. It is fascinating to
Speaker 5: find out that everything about his mo was found out
Speaker 5: from these people, albeit sometimes when it was far too late.
Speaker 5: But a reconstruction of how he did things is now
Speaker 5: known and chronicled in your book, along with other people's
Speaker 5: books on how exactly the ruse he employed and how
Speaker 5: he was able to do what he did. You, as
Speaker 5: we talked about in the introduction for your book, this
Speaker 5: is about the Victims, tell us about some of the
Speaker 5: research that you did and some of the people that
Speaker 5: weren't so well known that you did get a chance
Speaker 5: to speak to.
Speaker 7: Well, a lot of my research was done. I didn't
Speaker 7: speak to anybody verbally, but there were some communications going
Speaker 7: on because a lot of these these women and their
Speaker 7: friends I mentioned earlier, they do have different sites memorializing
Speaker 7: them and waste to contact the person who put the
Speaker 7: information on the site. And it was just fascinating because
Speaker 7: they talked about things that the women did and wanted
Speaker 7: to do with their lives, what they were majoring in,
Speaker 7: or what their personalities were like, and what they you know,
Speaker 7: when they got out of school, what they wanted to do.
Speaker 7: And again a lot of them were you so young
Speaker 7: too that they really didn't even have that to Some
Speaker 7: of them was, you know, seventeen years old, and you know,
Speaker 7: and in high school, a couple in junior high school.
Speaker 7: So it's hot to get a lot of information on
Speaker 7: someone that young. They really haven't done too much, right,
Speaker 7: There was enough to at least list every woman who
Speaker 7: you know, was a possible victim, even the possible victims
Speaker 7: I listed, because there is been there has been a
Speaker 7: number that people believe he's responsible for for making these
Speaker 7: women disappear and not knowing what happened to because they're
Speaker 7: just they vanished and there's nothing, nothing and found. So
Speaker 7: they believed Bundy's responsible. So I went through and I
Speaker 7: listed each one of these as well, and he even
Speaker 7: named some victims that police said he couldn't have done it,
Speaker 7: so he actually lied about some of the victims that
Speaker 7: he he did have. So I mean, it's just something
Speaker 7: that I wanted to make sure all the women were
Speaker 7: I could get as much information about them as I
Speaker 7: could to you know, show a reader that they're not
Speaker 7: just not just victims of this guy, and that they
Speaker 7: were actually you know, women go up to become you know,
Speaker 7: mothers of their own grandmothers someday, and it's just said
Speaker 7: that they never got a chance because of Bundy.
Speaker 5: And certainly the outrage too of things like the public
Speaker 5: display of marriage proposal to Carol Anne Boone in the
Speaker 5: case him defending himself and then of course being able
Speaker 5: to cross examine victims in the courtroom, to be able
Speaker 5: to stare them down and to laugh and treat the thing,
Speaker 5: especially in the beginning, with a lot of disrespect to
Speaker 5: everybody involved. It was truly very interesting for when you
Speaker 5: write about Ted Bundy in the end, desperate to have
Speaker 5: someone he listened to him, desperate to be involved, to
Speaker 5: help out in the potential bid to be able to
Speaker 5: avoid execution, whereas if he would have admitted or pardon me,
Speaker 5: if he would agree to a plea bargain, he would
Speaker 5: not have been executed, Which is a very interesting psychological statement,
Speaker 5: isn't it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, No, that's fascinating. If that and all accounts of
Speaker 7: that is the case that he could have actually gotten
Speaker 7: away with his life, but that he was too at
Speaker 7: the time, at that stage maybe of the trial he
Speaker 7: thought he could get away with it, and he didn't
Speaker 7: want to settle for life in prison, which is what
Speaker 7: he would have gotten, but to be you know, put
Speaker 7: to death. I don't know he he actually thought they
Speaker 7: would go that far. And uh, but the deal wasn't
Speaker 7: It wasn't a fact he could have pled out, and
Speaker 7: I just maybe he just believed that, you know what
Speaker 7: these other cases were gonna they want to get to
Speaker 7: me eventually, and they're gonna get evidence to stick, and
Speaker 7: I'm gonna be put to death anyway. So maybe he
Speaker 7: just thought he would roll the dice and try to
Speaker 7: get off on some technicality of some kind. But but yeah,
Speaker 7: there was a deal in place to uh to keep
Speaker 7: keep him off death row, and he decided to represent
Speaker 7: himself in court and then try to win the case.
Speaker 7: As crazy as that sounds, with all the victims that
Speaker 7: were lined up against him and only the few that
Speaker 7: that he was being in charge with at the time,
Speaker 7: it was just you only need one one capital offense
Speaker 7: in Florida and you're you're put on death row. So
Speaker 7: he was gambling and he took up bing gambling lost.
Speaker 5: It's interesting too you talk about the role that his mother,
Speaker 5: Louise had in his psycho sexual development, I would say,
Speaker 5: or his his development as a as a child and
Speaker 5: then a man. What did she think about these charges?
Speaker 5: Did she believe it? And what was was she there
Speaker 5: supporting him? What as you write tell us about.
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I mean that that that's something that's I
Speaker 7: thought it was kind of hot rendering because he was
Speaker 7: a mom, a typical mom, and every sense she seemed
Speaker 7: to adore this, this this son of hers, and even
Speaker 7: whether she thought he was guilty or not, she believed
Speaker 7: he was at least a good, good boy who couldn't
Speaker 7: have done these things. In her mind, he wasn't this
Speaker 7: this raging serial killer that did these things to women.
Speaker 7: And but she stayed by him the whole time, even through,
Speaker 7: you know, right up until the end. I mean, she
Speaker 7: was she was. She was there for him and telling
Speaker 7: him that she was his good boy and that she
Speaker 7: loved him. And so it's kind of sad because she
Speaker 7: did speak a little bit about it to the press.
Speaker 7: She didn't do too many interviews, but she did, she
Speaker 7: did some, and it just comes across as as a
Speaker 7: typical said mother who who couldn't believe that her son
Speaker 7: could have done these things, which is a lot a
Speaker 7: lot of the case you hear when serial killer is
Speaker 7: a card, and a lot of times it's it's the mom,
Speaker 7: and and it's usually sometimes as the dad not there
Speaker 7: being abusive that that is kind of not the cause.
Speaker 7: But you see that more. You see a supportive mom
Speaker 7: who maybe too supportive, overlooking things and not getting him
Speaker 7: some help maybe, but she she loved him and that
Speaker 7: that showed, and there's a whole chapter on her and
Speaker 7: the relationship that they had.
Speaker 5: We mentioned again very interested. I've never read this before
Speaker 5: about James Boone, Carol's son. He had come three times
Speaker 5: previously in the previous week, and he came the final
Speaker 5: evening of Ted Bundy's life. What was tell us a
Speaker 5: little bit more about the relationship.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean, it's odd, it seems have come out
Speaker 7: of nowhere because during the cost of his life, you
Speaker 7: don't hear him mentioned very much at all. Yet during
Speaker 7: this time when he's about to about to be killed
Speaker 7: behind the electric chair, he's uh, he stopped coming around,
Speaker 7: and then it seems like Ted's gone very uh he's
Speaker 7: done does a lot, doing a lot of praying at
Speaker 7: the end of the last couple of days, and uh,
Speaker 7: James was a very freaking visitor there especially, I think
Speaker 7: it was three times in that the last week. He
Speaker 7: and this this gentleman named John Tanner who was a
Speaker 7: lawyer in Florida, and I guess he became like a
Speaker 7: spiritual advisor. So between James and uh, this mister Tanner,
Speaker 7: John Tanner, they they they kind of, you know, kept
Speaker 7: Bundy's mind at he's when he's about to be electrocuted
Speaker 7: and within days and for some reason, you know, James
Speaker 7: Boone was somebody that felt something that he needed to
Speaker 7: be around Ted at that time and felt some something
Speaker 7: for him and wanted to be there. Fascinating that we
Speaker 7: couldn't talk to him, But dynamic that's involved in that
Speaker 7: would be fascinating to find out more about, that's for sure.
Speaker 5: You read about the execution forty two witnesses, twelve reporters.
Speaker 5: I thought that was interesting, and the executioner was paid
Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty dollars in cash. Meanwhile outside there's protests,
Speaker 5: two thousand people celebrating. Tell us about Gary Ridgeway and
Speaker 5: the idea of a competition, we'll say, and maybe the
Speaker 5: reason why Bundy volunteered to help in that investigation.
Speaker 7: Oh yeah, well yeah, the Green River killer was in
Speaker 7: stalking his territory basically, And there have been people who
Speaker 7: speculate that, you know what, serial killers have this this
Speaker 7: personality trait where they need to be in control, they
Speaker 7: need to be looked at as somebody who's important. And
Speaker 7: here's this this Green River killer coming along. People don't
Speaker 7: don't know who he is. He's been active for a
Speaker 7: long time and hasn't been caught. So even that in
Speaker 7: itself must have been plaguing Bundy because you know, as
Speaker 7: many of the victims as Bundy had, it was all
Speaker 7: relatively done within a few a couple of year period
Speaker 7: of time, with a gap in between when he was
Speaker 7: in custody. But the Green River Killers is unknown. It's
Speaker 7: like a masked menaced and he's uh, actually his his
Speaker 7: numbers of victims went above and beyond what Ted Bundy did,
Speaker 7: so you some people speculate that he was maybe wanted
Speaker 7: to stop this guy for that reason because you know
Speaker 7: what's making him uh not look so good in the sense,
Speaker 7: this is all he had. Now he's going to be
Speaker 7: put to death, and he wanted to be notorious perhaps,
Speaker 7: and he also wanted to get maybe get some time
Speaker 7: extra time before he was electrocuted by cooperating with the
Speaker 7: authorities in that area to try to find out who
Speaker 7: this Green River Killer is a ka. You know the
Speaker 7: whole thing with the movie that that came out later
Speaker 7: on everybody knows, uh, you know, the silence and the
Speaker 7: lambs where somebody was uh the killer was used to
Speaker 7: try to find out what this other new killer was
Speaker 7: was going to be doing, and he wanted to get
Speaker 7: that that acclaim and get notoriety for helping and also
Speaker 7: for maybe for stopping this killer who was gonna break
Speaker 7: Hish his record of murders. So it's fascinating how that
Speaker 7: might have played out. It's it's speculative and you know,
Speaker 7: psychology major stuff can talk about it, but it is
Speaker 7: fascinating how he wanted to reach out to try to help.
Speaker 7: He reached out to authorities they didn't reach out to
Speaker 7: him to try to find out who this killer was,
Speaker 7: and eventually he was caught. Gary Ridgeway.
Speaker 5: But we all know, we all know the story of
Speaker 5: of Pardon Me, of Silence of the Lambs. But you
Speaker 5: write about us about the Red Dragon and Thomas Harris
Speaker 5: attending Ted Bundy's trial. Tell us about the book Red Dragon,
Speaker 5: And how's you write in the book?
Speaker 7: Yeah, well a red Dragon. Yeah, that was a precursor
Speaker 7: for for a Silence of the Lambs, I'm pretty sure.
Speaker 7: And what I read the Yeah, Thomas Harris was the author. Yeah,
Speaker 7: and he had he attended a Bundy trial, just something
Speaker 7: something he must have been interested in, obviously in crime
Speaker 7: to crime, And he mailed a copy of his book
Speaker 7: Read Dragon. It was at nineteen eighty one novel and
Speaker 7: obviously that's the book that introduced to the character, you know,
Speaker 7: Hannibal Lecter.
Speaker 5: So he just.
Speaker 7: Tom Harris has happened to be this this great author
Speaker 7: of these books, and he was fascinating. He was at
Speaker 7: a Bundy trial and he mailed a copy of two
Speaker 7: of a Red Dragon into Ted. So it's just one
Speaker 7: of those little tidbits of information that you pick up
Speaker 7: somewhere and like, wow, I didn't know that either, and
Speaker 7: how come I, well, maybe I did. I just I
Speaker 7: thought I would remember that. But it's something that that's fascinating.
Speaker 7: One of those small little details that make make you know,
Speaker 7: something like like a book like this interesting because maybe
Speaker 7: you haven't heard it before and it's just a tidbit,
Speaker 7: but it's it's it's interesting.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. Uh. You you talk about the websites that you
Speaker 5: were able to access recently that weren't maybe up a
Speaker 5: few years ago or many years ago. Tell us about
Speaker 5: some of that those websites. Cite a couple of those
Speaker 5: for us, and uh, where you got some of the
Speaker 5: valuable information and where some of these people are located online?
Speaker 7: Well, a lot of the information is, uh, do list
Speaker 7: my sources, and like I said, a lot of you
Speaker 7: even YouTube videos. You can find interviews on them if
Speaker 7: you know, you want to find out about Chino and
Speaker 7: how her and Elizabeth said they were best friends, and
Speaker 7: you can find some of these interviews that were done
Speaker 7: that maybe you didn't when they happened, you didn't pay
Speaker 7: too much attention. But now with social media exploding, you
Speaker 7: can actually find these these videos and interviews all in
Speaker 7: one area, and they they're numerous and they're ob authentic,
Speaker 7: so you don't have to worry about you know, things
Speaker 7: that you read sometimes are not accurate. But with interviews,
Speaker 7: you get to pull information. You get to pull you know,
Speaker 7: you know what they're what people are directly saying, and
Speaker 7: you can even read the you know, the looks on
Speaker 7: their faces that they're saying this, so you can interpret
Speaker 7: them in ways that you can't when you just read
Speaker 7: read about them. So specific sources, I mean, I don't
Speaker 7: want to list any people, but I do list the
Speaker 7: sources I used in the research of this book, and
Speaker 7: recommending any one over the other. It's there's just just
Speaker 7: so many and obviously it took a lot of you know, research,
Speaker 7: but their websites were all out there, and that's why
Speaker 7: I collect to them and put them all at the
Speaker 7: end of the book in the bibliography page where I
Speaker 7: all the sources are cited. So I don't know the
Speaker 7: more I can say about that right now.
Speaker 5: That's good. I want to thank you very much Paul
Speaker 5: Lenardo for coming on and talking about your book, Ted
Speaker 5: Bundy The Angel of Decay. For those that might want
Speaker 5: to look at other work of this work and other work,
Speaker 5: do you have a website or a Facebook page that
Speaker 5: they might be able to take a look at, please, Yeah.
Speaker 7: I do have a website Paul Leonardo dot com. Also
Speaker 7: Amazon page. I have auto page that I put a
Speaker 7: lot of information and interviews that I've done on that
Speaker 7: as well, So that's that's available for people. Yeah, either
Speaker 7: one who would tell you a lot about the books
Speaker 7: and the things that I'm doing and have done.
Speaker 5: Absolutely. And you have another book, Murder Without Motive, being
Speaker 5: released this year as well.
Speaker 7: No, that was actually a release so back in two
Speaker 7: thousand and six, and that's a uh, Murder Without Motive
Speaker 7: was part of a thrill killer book I made it.
Speaker 7: It wasn't an electronic book at the time, so the
Speaker 7: publisher it's gone out of print now, so I wanted
Speaker 7: to have an electronic book available. So Thrilled Killers was
Speaker 7: the title of the original book, and I just used
Speaker 7: the title. Murder Without Motive was the subtitle of that book,
Speaker 7: so I'm just using that, and it's the an ebook
Speaker 7: that's available now for the first time with that Thriller Killers,
Speaker 7: Murder Without Motive. It's available as an e book.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, that sounds fantastic. We'll have to have you back
Speaker 5: on and talk about that fascinating book, Thrill.
Speaker 7: Killers time anytime.
Speaker 5: Van. Thank you very much, Paul Lenardo for Ted Bundy
Speaker 5: The Angel of the k It has been fascinating. You
Speaker 5: have a great evening. Thank you very much.
Speaker 7: Thank you, thank you, Dan, good night by now okay,