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That's Chumbuck Casino dot com 22 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:58.119 and live the Chumba line. 23 00:00:58.159 --> 00:01:01.000 No, we're necessarily void over by law, your red eighty. 24 00:01:00.840 --> 00:01:04.519 Class blot to Canadian. 25 00:01:13.000 --> 00:01:16.400 You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking 26 00:01:16.519 --> 00:01:19.519 killers in true crime history and the authors that have 27 00:01:19.640 --> 00:01:26.879 written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every 28 00:01:26.959 --> 00:01:30.599 week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and 29 00:01:30.719 --> 00:01:35.200 infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, 30 00:01:35.640 --> 00:01:38.120 journalist and author Dan Zufanski. 31 00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:52.000 Good Evening. It has been thirty years since Ted Bundy, 32 00:01:52.359 --> 00:01:56.000 arguably this country's most notorious serial killer, was put to 33 00:01:56.120 --> 00:01:58.319 death in the electric chair by the State of Florida 34 00:01:58.359 --> 00:02:01.480 in nineteen eighty nine, but there continues to exist in 35 00:02:01.560 --> 00:02:04.599 our society a morbid interest in him and the ghastly 36 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:07.400 way he murdered and disposed of the women he abducted 37 00:02:07.480 --> 00:02:10.360 in the seventies. Many people want to know how a 38 00:02:10.439 --> 00:02:13.400 person could do the things that Ted Bundy did. It's 39 00:02:13.439 --> 00:02:16.080 truly frightening to think that there are fellow human beings 40 00:02:16.120 --> 00:02:19.039 who possess such dark desires and act out their murderous 41 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.120 tendencies on the innocent. In unsuspecting. We tend to think 42 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:26.400 of these individuals as inhuman or evil, which is the 43 00:02:26.439 --> 00:02:28.360 only thing that makes sense to us, because what drives 44 00:02:28.400 --> 00:02:31.080 Ted Mundy and others like him are not feelings that 45 00:02:31.240 --> 00:02:35.560 any of us can remotely relate to. In exploring what 46 00:02:35.719 --> 00:02:38.360 might have been working inside the mind of Ted Bundy, 47 00:02:38.840 --> 00:02:42.240 the angel of decay triggering him to brutally snuff out 48 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.319 the lives of so many young women, the purposes not 49 00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:50.039 to increase his anonymous celebrity or sensationalize his heinous acts, 50 00:02:50.599 --> 00:02:54.039 but to shatter any such appeal. The only way to 51 00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:56.680 do that is to remember the women and young girls 52 00:02:56.719 --> 00:02:59.639 that he killed, not merely as victims, but remembering who 53 00:02:59.680 --> 00:03:02.759 they were, how they lived, and the impact they had 54 00:03:02.840 --> 00:03:05.680 on their families as well as those around them. They 55 00:03:05.800 --> 00:03:09.039 had a lot more in common than being casualties of 56 00:03:09.120 --> 00:03:14.599 Ted Bundy's violent, psycho sexual desires. The book that we 57 00:03:14.680 --> 00:03:21.680 were featuring this evening is Ted. Good evening, Paul, and 58 00:03:21.719 --> 00:03:22.639 welcome to the program. 59 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:26.159 Hi, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. 60 00:03:27.199 --> 00:03:32.439 Thank you very much. I just wanted to introduce you 61 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:36.280 to the audience as the author of this book, Ted Bundy, 62 00:03:36.560 --> 00:03:39.319 but we had you on on True Murder a few 63 00:03:39.400 --> 00:03:42.360 years ago with your book called Caught in the Act. 64 00:03:43.439 --> 00:03:45.199 Before we start to sending you tell us a little 65 00:03:45.199 --> 00:03:49.159 bit about that book and the full title of that book. 66 00:03:49.400 --> 00:03:54.560 And yeah, yeah, Caught in the Act subtitle is called 67 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:58.080 A Courageous families fight to save their daughter from a 68 00:03:58.240 --> 00:04:02.120 serial killer, which people recall. It was a truck driver 69 00:04:02.719 --> 00:04:05.400 who was getting out of his vehicle in the middle 70 00:04:05.400 --> 00:04:07.919 of the night, parking it in one of those rest 71 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:11.639 stops and dressing up in black and taking knives and 72 00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:15.039 different instruments with him and going down into the communities 73 00:04:15.520 --> 00:04:18.600 nearby and looking for unlocked doors to go into and 74 00:04:18.879 --> 00:04:24.480 search for women to murder. And a family in Chelmston, Massachusetts, 75 00:04:25.000 --> 00:04:27.759 happened to hear some noise late at night. A couple 76 00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:30.439 woke up. The father went into the daughter's fifteen year 77 00:04:30.439 --> 00:04:34.120 old bedroom and saw this giant man and dressed in 78 00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:38.720 black with a knife over his daughter. Before anything could happen, 79 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.319 father ended up tackling this this man who was much 80 00:04:42.360 --> 00:04:46.240 bigger than him, and subdued him until the police got there, 81 00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:48.000 and they found out that this guy had done this 82 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:52.519 two or three times previously and killed and killed women 83 00:04:52.600 --> 00:04:53.399 in the same fashion. 84 00:04:55.040 --> 00:04:57.480 Yes, and the full title of that is caught in 85 00:04:57.560 --> 00:04:57.959 the act. 86 00:04:59.199 --> 00:05:02.000 Yes, it's called in the Act and it's subtitled Our 87 00:05:02.040 --> 00:05:05.120 Courageous Families fight to save their daughter from a serial killer, 88 00:05:06.040 --> 00:05:08.360 which which this gentleman was. I mean he had three 89 00:05:08.480 --> 00:05:11.839 victims that were that were known, so he was I 90 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.240 guess he was just starting out and his ventures into 91 00:05:15.600 --> 00:05:19.800 serial killing. So this family intervened and and stopped save 92 00:05:19.879 --> 00:05:22.839 the daughter and probably saved who knows how many lives 93 00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:25.560 because they captured the serial killer in their home. 94 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:29.279 Yes, and that was a previous interview on true Murder. 95 00:05:29.560 --> 00:05:32.639 I suggest people recommend people might take a look at 96 00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.839 have a listen to that. Now for this book, The 97 00:05:36.000 --> 00:05:40.079 Angel of Decay, before we start about going through some 98 00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:44.160 I guess interesting things that I hadn't read before or 99 00:05:44.279 --> 00:05:46.839 were brought up much differently in this book and this 100 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.680 examination of Ted Bundy. Why did you call this book 101 00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:52.319 Ted Bundy The Angel of Decay. 102 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:57.800 Well, I was looking for various titles. Obviously, Dan, there's 103 00:05:57.879 --> 00:06:01.319 so many things that have been written about in the past, 104 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:04.839 and obviously and recently there's been a renewed interest because 105 00:06:04.879 --> 00:06:08.600 of the big movie and other social media things that 106 00:06:08.680 --> 00:06:11.040 are going on with the thirty years since he's been 107 00:06:11.079 --> 00:06:13.360 put to death. So I was just looking for an 108 00:06:13.399 --> 00:06:18.079 interesting title, something that would would stand out and would 109 00:06:18.120 --> 00:06:19.720 interest people to look up. But because I know a 110 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:21.839 lot of people are well passed who young people who 111 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:23.920 were even younger than me, that don't know too much 112 00:06:23.959 --> 00:06:25.759 about Ted Bundy, and they are going to rely on 113 00:06:25.920 --> 00:06:30.800 movies which sensationalize a lot of the facts, and they 114 00:06:30.839 --> 00:06:34.480 don't get into all the interesting details sometimes that a 115 00:06:34.519 --> 00:06:37.839 book does. And I wanted to find out what more 116 00:06:37.959 --> 00:06:40.079 there is because I know there's so much more information 117 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.839 available now than there was in the past, as far 118 00:06:42.959 --> 00:06:46.839 as minute details about all of the girls. All lot 119 00:06:46.920 --> 00:06:49.879 of them have various websites where their friends families have 120 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:52.800 things posted now where they talk about the lives of 121 00:06:52.879 --> 00:06:55.639 these girls, and I thought that was the important thing here, 122 00:06:55.759 --> 00:06:58.879 not just to detail the grisly crimes that the Bundy committed, 123 00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:01.759 which people most like it and to know about. 124 00:07:03.639 --> 00:07:06.600 Let's start off with the origins of Ted Bundy, and 125 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:12.199 you talk about his grandfather, Samuel Cowell's influence. So tell 126 00:07:12.279 --> 00:07:15.800 us who Samuel Cowell was, and then some of the 127 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:20.319 characteristics of his behavior before we talk about more of 128 00:07:20.439 --> 00:07:25.399 the influence later when he was adopted by John Culpeper 129 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:29.399 Bundy later on tell us Samuel Cowlell's influence. 130 00:07:30.279 --> 00:07:32.959 Yeah, I mean, if you know anything about I've read 131 00:07:32.959 --> 00:07:36.319 about Sam Cowell, he's you know, an interesting relationship that 132 00:07:36.360 --> 00:07:39.839 he had with Ted. Because Sam Cowell was known around 133 00:07:40.040 --> 00:07:42.879 his not just immediate family, but around the neighborhood as 134 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:49.040 a pretty nasty gentleman, abusive verbally, abusive, belief to have 135 00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:52.040 you know, struck his wife. So he was that kind 136 00:07:52.079 --> 00:07:55.519 of personality where he didn't seem well liked, but he 137 00:07:55.639 --> 00:07:58.240 happened to be a deacon in his church. And if 138 00:07:58.279 --> 00:08:02.040 you ever, Ted Bundy never said anything negative about this 139 00:08:02.240 --> 00:08:06.279 man who everybody else seemed to dislike. So for some reason, 140 00:08:06.399 --> 00:08:08.399 either Ted Muney didn't want to talk about it and 141 00:08:08.519 --> 00:08:11.160 he was in denial about what his grandfather might have done, 142 00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:16.839 or the grandfather somehow didn't didn't abuse him in any 143 00:08:16.920 --> 00:08:20.639 way verbally or physically. And Ted Mundy has nothing negative 144 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:22.720 to say about him, because I was looking everywhere I 145 00:08:22.759 --> 00:08:24.720 could and he really had nothing but nice things to 146 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:28.120 say about this man who was who at the time 147 00:08:28.199 --> 00:08:30.439 when when Ted was born, he was embarrassed that his 148 00:08:30.600 --> 00:08:33.279 daughter was having a child out of wedlock and it 149 00:08:34.399 --> 00:08:36.759 was a stain on the on the family. So that 150 00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:39.519 that was that was a big influence when Ted was 151 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:43.440 deceived early on. And people, your readers, listeners may know 152 00:08:43.600 --> 00:08:46.440 that Ted was deceived early on who his parents really were. 153 00:08:47.240 --> 00:08:51.240 His grandfather's pretended to be his father, and his actual 154 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:54.720 mother was pretending to be an older sister for a while. 155 00:08:54.759 --> 00:08:56.919 They tried to get away with that scam. And so 156 00:08:57.080 --> 00:08:59.480 there's a lot of a lot of family dysfunction that 157 00:08:59.559 --> 00:09:02.720 was going on early on that you can see might 158 00:09:02.799 --> 00:09:09.320 have made a young young man feel not normal. As 159 00:09:09.360 --> 00:09:09.960 we can say that. 160 00:09:12.039 --> 00:09:15.919 Before we talk about how we learned about specifically about 161 00:09:16.000 --> 00:09:21.240 his his true parentage. You write about that it was 162 00:09:21.399 --> 00:09:23.840 known or at least you write about that the grandfather 163 00:09:24.840 --> 00:09:29.440 tortured animals and had a porn collection and a big 164 00:09:29.559 --> 00:09:33.039 porn collection. And we will, as we talked later, we 165 00:09:33.080 --> 00:09:36.440 will talk about what Bundy had said about violent porn, 166 00:09:36.559 --> 00:09:39.799 as many of the fans might know already. But let's 167 00:09:39.840 --> 00:09:45.519 talk about the big porn collection and the torturing animals 168 00:09:45.679 --> 00:09:46.799 information that you found. 169 00:09:47.600 --> 00:09:50.240 Yeah, I mean I found just a couple of references 170 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:52.559 that that reference that wasn't just one, and I do 171 00:09:52.720 --> 00:09:56.799 with my references that that indicate that the grandfather, Sam Cowell, 172 00:09:56.879 --> 00:09:58.960 you know, did have a collection of pornography that he 173 00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:03.679 shared either openly or Ted found it and then observed 174 00:10:03.720 --> 00:10:07.120 them himself. But it was known that this deacon of 175 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:10.639 the church had this this collection, and then that that 176 00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:15.679 attracted Ted early on. And I know Ted did talk 177 00:10:15.720 --> 00:10:19.240 about how this, how pornography influenced him later on and 178 00:10:19.639 --> 00:10:23.480 in life, and his confessions while in prison, how much 179 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:28.279 that created his feelings. But a lot of those confessions 180 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:30.720 that have to be taken with a grain of salt. Obviously, 181 00:10:30.799 --> 00:10:32.120 it was the end of his life and he was 182 00:10:32.200 --> 00:10:35.200 looking for for some reason, and that may not have 183 00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:39.240 been actual or not, but pornography itself was something that 184 00:10:39.440 --> 00:10:43.240 the grandfather did have in some amount what's called large 185 00:10:43.320 --> 00:10:45.759 by large collection for some might not be large, but 186 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:49.440 it's it's observed that he did have a pornography collection 187 00:10:49.559 --> 00:10:52.080 of some kind and that Ted had access to it, 188 00:10:54.320 --> 00:10:56.320 which may may not be unusual in some families. But 189 00:10:56.440 --> 00:11:00.600 for Ted, he indicated that this this affected him growing 190 00:11:00.679 --> 00:11:02.960 up when he became when he turned in, puberty came 191 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:05.000 along and he entered middle school, he started to have 192 00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:09.000 some issues socially with the other children and with confidence 193 00:11:09.080 --> 00:11:12.679 with women. So it's hot to know exactly how that 194 00:11:12.799 --> 00:11:14.960 influenced him. But he did observe that he did have 195 00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:19.080 this collection of pornography that that Ted did have access to. 196 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:21.840 There's not much more to it than that, other than 197 00:11:21.879 --> 00:11:25.399 what Ted said later on and his confessions while he 198 00:11:25.480 --> 00:11:26.840 was in prison and death row. 199 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:34.240 Now, according to what you found, and again there's conflicting information, 200 00:11:35.080 --> 00:11:39.759 contradictory information. But from everything that you found, how did 201 00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:43.480 he find out, in particular about the true nature of 202 00:11:43.559 --> 00:11:45.360 his parentage who his parents really were? 203 00:11:47.200 --> 00:11:49.360 And Yeah, if anybody who's written about him will he 204 00:11:49.480 --> 00:11:52.159 may have different opinions or they may list different ways 205 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.440 that he found out about this from being teased by 206 00:11:57.399 --> 00:12:00.360 cousins of his that you know, he he was his 207 00:12:00.480 --> 00:12:03.159 bestard child and he didn't know who his father was 208 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:07.879 being teased that way or his mother definitely did not 209 00:12:08.039 --> 00:12:09.960 let him know. So it was something that was that 210 00:12:10.080 --> 00:12:11.759 was kept a secret. So it might have been, you know, 211 00:12:11.840 --> 00:12:14.639 something that was he wanted to know, but she wasn't 212 00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:17.519 going to give him that information. And Anne Rule actually 213 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.399 believed that he had gone down to find out and 214 00:12:21.519 --> 00:12:25.320 researched himself. You know what his parentage was by going, 215 00:12:25.639 --> 00:12:28.440 you know, to the location where he was born and 216 00:12:28.559 --> 00:12:31.840 and kind of researching and finding out who gave birth 217 00:12:31.879 --> 00:12:34.480 to him. But again even Anne Rules says that's that's 218 00:12:34.519 --> 00:12:37.519 what she believes, and there's no proof of any of that. 219 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:42.000 Exactly how he came to learn, you know, who his 220 00:12:42.200 --> 00:12:45.480 mother uh had had, you know, had sex with to 221 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:47.399 have him bring him into this world. So it was 222 00:12:47.440 --> 00:12:50.120 something that he wanted to know about for his whole life, 223 00:12:51.200 --> 00:12:54.919 and it's just something that that he never really you know, 224 00:12:55.120 --> 00:12:58.279 came to terms with, I believe, certainly. 225 00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:01.799 You say in nineteen fifty. In nineteen fifty, Louise's mother 226 00:13:02.279 --> 00:13:06.440 and the family moved from Philadelphia to Coma, Washington, And 227 00:13:06.639 --> 00:13:10.279 you write that Bundy for seemed to miss his grandfather, 228 00:13:11.919 --> 00:13:14.440 but for a time they were living with his great 229 00:13:14.600 --> 00:13:19.480 uncle Jack, who impressed Bundy because he was successful. He 230 00:13:19.559 --> 00:13:22.000 was a college professor who had sent his kids off 231 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:26.039 the boarding school, and he seemed to have wealth for himself, 232 00:13:27.320 --> 00:13:31.200 and he seemed to be successful. But his mother met 233 00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:34.320 this John Culpeper Bundy at church and they were married 234 00:13:34.360 --> 00:13:38.519 the next year. As you write, and many other people 235 00:13:38.559 --> 00:13:43.080 have written as well, it seemed that Ted was forming 236 00:13:43.279 --> 00:13:48.320 this opinion about based opinion of people based on their 237 00:13:48.399 --> 00:13:53.759 success and their wealth, despite not growing up what we 238 00:13:53.840 --> 00:13:57.559 would categorized as poor Tulsibal thing. 239 00:13:58.720 --> 00:14:03.600 Oh yes, absolutely. I think being you know, middle class 240 00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:06.360 to to lower middle classes not something that Bundy was, 241 00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:09.840 uh was interested in for himself. He saw himself as 242 00:14:09.879 --> 00:14:13.120 something something greater. So when he met this you know 243 00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:16.759 relative of his was an uncle Jack, I believe college 244 00:14:16.799 --> 00:14:20.320 professor probably did very well, uh could you know, travel 245 00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:21.960 and and go on vacation, to do all these things 246 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:23.679 that his family could. And so it was something that 247 00:14:23.759 --> 00:14:27.519 he wanted to achieve have at least have the perception 248 00:14:27.799 --> 00:14:30.320 of being wealthy. And and that was something that you 249 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.480 can see early on and I throughout his life too, 250 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:35.480 is how he wanted to portray himself. And it was 251 00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:37.639 something that he could not afford to live in certain 252 00:14:37.960 --> 00:14:41.600 that lifestyle. So to to achieve that he would steal 253 00:14:42.159 --> 00:14:45.120 and that that that that was something that he did 254 00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:49.840 his whole entire life, uh, petty theft and just getting 255 00:14:49.879 --> 00:14:53.000 what he wanted through any means possible. It seems that 256 00:14:53.320 --> 00:14:56.279 he was had an affinity for for nice clothes and 257 00:14:56.519 --> 00:15:01.080 wanted to present himself as a sophisticated and and and 258 00:15:01.679 --> 00:15:04.159 you know, middle class to upper middle class type type 259 00:15:04.159 --> 00:15:07.240 of a guy. And you can tell early on at 260 00:15:07.360 --> 00:15:11.080 how he wanted his father, his uncle Jack, to actually 261 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:14.600 adopt him, and he wanted to be in in that family. Actually, 262 00:15:14.720 --> 00:15:16.639 it was believed that he actually asked his uncle Ted 263 00:15:16.720 --> 00:15:19.200 if he could adopt him, which was something that was 264 00:15:19.320 --> 00:15:22.679 pretty insulting to uh to John Bundy, who his mother 265 00:15:22.799 --> 00:15:27.480 had married. And and by all accounts, John Bundy, his stepfather, 266 00:15:27.559 --> 00:15:29.960 treated him very well and tried to include him in 267 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.440 all the family events and and not make him seem 268 00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:36.960 like an outcast as a step child. So it's just 269 00:15:37.039 --> 00:15:39.879 something that definitely is in Bundy's personality trait that he 270 00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.639 needed to have that monetary Uh, that stigma that he 271 00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:45.559 had he had something. 272 00:15:47.759 --> 00:15:51.679 You right too, that he had a juvenile record based 273 00:15:51.720 --> 00:15:55.279 on this shoplifting and thieving and getting in minor trouble, 274 00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:57.879 relatively minor trouble. But at eighteen, of course the juvenile 275 00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:00.799 record in that state was expunged. But you say at 276 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:06.679 that time he began peeping into people's windows. Tell us 277 00:16:06.759 --> 00:16:09.200 some of the other darker things that he was interested 278 00:16:09.240 --> 00:16:09.879 in that time. 279 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:14.759 Uh, yeah, absolutely, Dan, It seemed that that was something 280 00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:17.200 he had an interest in. And you know, he he 281 00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:21.559 talked about how he was interested in those detective magazines 282 00:16:21.600 --> 00:16:24.080 at the time that came out. They were kind of sallacious, Uh. 283 00:16:24.879 --> 00:16:28.519 They were pretty strong, R rated magazine type things, and 284 00:16:28.519 --> 00:16:30.679 they had crime, you know, they were featured crimes and 285 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.159 they usually violence was involved in them. They would be 286 00:16:33.600 --> 00:16:38.360 bloody bodies, and it was something a magazine that he enjoyed. 287 00:16:38.360 --> 00:16:42.600 I guess because they combined you know, pornography with with sex. 288 00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:45.840 And you can't say that the magazines created that in him. 289 00:16:45.919 --> 00:16:49.080 They would have to have been something inside him that 290 00:16:49.240 --> 00:16:52.200 was attracted to that for for some other reason. Because 291 00:16:52.320 --> 00:16:55.159 you show a magazine like that to different people and 292 00:16:55.240 --> 00:16:58.639 they're not gonna turn into what he did. So you know, 293 00:16:58.759 --> 00:17:01.440 he can blame he can him, you know, visualizing and 294 00:17:01.519 --> 00:17:03.919 seeing those magazines for the reason for what he did. 295 00:17:04.039 --> 00:17:06.640 But you know he's he'd be smart enough to know 296 00:17:06.759 --> 00:17:09.400 that that's that's not entirely true. It's a pretty complex 297 00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:12.480 you know, what what what happens to somebody when they 298 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:14.759 when they turn into a serial killer? I was they' 299 00:17:14.799 --> 00:17:16.759 ball in that way or what influences them along the way? 300 00:17:16.799 --> 00:17:19.359 There and that's a whole other discussion too, Dan. But 301 00:17:19.519 --> 00:17:22.279 as far as how he you know, how he got 302 00:17:22.359 --> 00:17:26.400 into peeping, is it just an adolescent curiosity, which is 303 00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:28.839 which is one thing, and then that happens as well. 304 00:17:29.119 --> 00:17:31.880 And again those those children don't turn into serial killers either. 305 00:17:31.920 --> 00:17:34.039 But this is something that did interest him, you know, 306 00:17:34.519 --> 00:17:38.799 obviously as a young boy, peeping and the pornography, and 307 00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:42.440 and it's just something that he he talked about and 308 00:17:42.519 --> 00:17:44.119 it was it was well known as well, because his 309 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:46.759 neighbors would see him and he did get in trouble 310 00:17:46.799 --> 00:17:49.440 for stealing and doing these different things. And so it's 311 00:17:49.559 --> 00:17:51.960 just part of what what he was when he was 312 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:52.599 a young man. 313 00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:59.440 You're right though, that his need for at least outwardly anyway, 314 00:17:59.559 --> 00:18:04.359 but his need for normalcy in He graduated in sixty 315 00:18:04.440 --> 00:18:07.079 five and then he enrolled at the University of Puget Sound. 316 00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:11.759 Later next year transferred to the University of Washington, and 317 00:18:11.960 --> 00:18:15.119 there is where he became romantically involved with the University 318 00:18:15.160 --> 00:18:18.279 of Washington classmate, and he used a studium. It is 319 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:22.240 a studium. Stephanie Brooks, a pretty wealthy girl from California. 320 00:18:22.960 --> 00:18:26.000 As we talked about this before, but I don't think 321 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:29.960 people can get enough of this incredible seems cause and effect. 322 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:34.279 Here tell us about this woman and the relationship and 323 00:18:35.160 --> 00:18:38.279 Ted Bundy's reaction to meeting this woman, what he thought 324 00:18:38.319 --> 00:18:41.480 of this relationship, and what happened in that relationship. 325 00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:45.359 Yeah, this is one of the things that many, many 326 00:18:45.440 --> 00:18:48.279 psychologists will point to us saying, you know, this is 327 00:18:48.400 --> 00:18:52.480 something that really influenced him and created in anger and 328 00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:56.319 a need to control because he fell in love with 329 00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:01.160 this woman, Stephanie Brooks as they call her. She was 330 00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:05.880 a very pretty, wealthy girl from California. Her family was 331 00:19:05.920 --> 00:19:09.680 from San Francisco, and she had all the classic looks. 332 00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:12.519 I guess that he desired with the long dark hair, 333 00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:17.920 being very pretty and this they whatever relationship they had, 334 00:19:18.400 --> 00:19:24.039 he wanted more from it, and I guess she wanted 335 00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.960 something differently than what he had to offer her. And 336 00:19:27.160 --> 00:19:30.920 when he dropped out of college and decided to get 337 00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:34.880 into politics, he started volunteering. I think at the first 338 00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.599 it was with the Seattle office of the Nelson Rockefeller 339 00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:40.880 presidential campaign. He got involved in politics and dropped out 340 00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.240 of school, and I guess maybe that that may have 341 00:19:43.279 --> 00:19:45.519 an influenced turning her off as far as he wasn't 342 00:19:45.759 --> 00:19:47.079 pursuing an education. 343 00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:47.160 In a. 344 00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.839 Career somewhere beyond you know, volunteering in politics. So she 345 00:19:53.039 --> 00:19:55.960 left went to San Francisco to be bet with her family, 346 00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:59.319 leaving him behind. Officially, you know, they were broken up. 347 00:19:59.359 --> 00:20:02.839 She she left him, and that devastated him, I believe, 348 00:20:02.880 --> 00:20:06.039 and most psychologists say the same thing, that he didn't 349 00:20:06.039 --> 00:20:08.839 know how to handle that rejection, that loss of control. 350 00:20:08.920 --> 00:20:11.599 That's something that he wanted, that was in his grasp 351 00:20:12.119 --> 00:20:14.440 and it got away. And then people think that this 352 00:20:14.680 --> 00:20:17.720 is something that really angered him and set him off 353 00:20:17.759 --> 00:20:22.920 on a path of what he started to do immediately afterwards. 354 00:20:24.920 --> 00:20:29.839 And rule and again, she's got a lot of credibility 355 00:20:29.920 --> 00:20:34.519 with me and almost everyone else. She believed that around 356 00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.839 that time, he drove to Burlington, Vermont and found his 357 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.200 birth certificate including his real father's name. Although he never 358 00:20:42.279 --> 00:20:45.799 have said that to investigators, that would account for quite 359 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:46.480 a bit, wouldn't it. 360 00:20:47.519 --> 00:20:50.079 Yeah, you could see how that would set him off 361 00:20:50.160 --> 00:20:54.440 to that would be a definite start, because he did 362 00:20:55.000 --> 00:21:00.559 suddenly drive off and drive across country to Philadelphia to 363 00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:02.799 see his parents, and you could see him stopping off 364 00:21:02.839 --> 00:21:06.240 in Vermont to actually, you know, find out more and investigate. 365 00:21:06.279 --> 00:21:07.640 You know, what's what's wrong with me? 366 00:21:07.880 --> 00:21:07.920 What? 367 00:21:08.279 --> 00:21:10.920 Why can't I keep a girl? Why am I thinking 368 00:21:11.039 --> 00:21:14.599 these things? So it might have definitely might have triggered that. 369 00:21:14.839 --> 00:21:17.920 And again he never admitted. He admitted to many things. 370 00:21:18.920 --> 00:21:21.519 Bundy admitted to many things he didn't do, many things 371 00:21:21.599 --> 00:21:24.279 he did do. So it's really hot to say when 372 00:21:24.319 --> 00:21:28.240 he found out, But I know andrul knew him, spoke 373 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:30.319 to him, and I believe she probably had a sense 374 00:21:30.319 --> 00:21:32.759 about him, even if she wasn't told directly that. This 375 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:35.039 is when he found out when he went to investigate 376 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:38.079 himself in Vermont, in the in the area where he 377 00:21:38.200 --> 00:21:40.599 was born, in that home for unwed mothers, where his 378 00:21:40.759 --> 00:21:41.759 mother gave birth to him. 379 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.200 Now and shortly after, which is fall nineteen sixty nine, 380 00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:53.559 in Washington again University of Washington, he met Elizabeth Klopfer. 381 00:21:54.079 --> 00:21:56.200 She was twenty four years old from Salt Lake City. 382 00:21:56.319 --> 00:21:58.799 He's the secretary at the University of Washington School of 383 00:21:58.880 --> 00:22:03.799 medicinely divorced with a three year old girl, Tina. What 384 00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:06.519 I found fascinating was that in your book you have 385 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:13.119 much more information about this, again seemingly normal Ted Bundy 386 00:22:13.519 --> 00:22:17.720 in a family situation with Elizabeth Clofer not his ideal 387 00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.119 type of woman by any means. But tell us a 388 00:22:21.160 --> 00:22:22.960 little bit, as you write in a book about this 389 00:22:23.440 --> 00:22:27.160 seemingly normal Ted Bundy in his family situation. 390 00:22:28.680 --> 00:22:31.160 Yeah, even before the family situation, Dan, when they when 391 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:35.240 they first met and you described how how they met 392 00:22:35.319 --> 00:22:38.000 in a bar and the eyes across you know, that 393 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:40.559 whole romantic setting, and how we swept her off her 394 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:43.799 feet dancing that night and they spent the night together 395 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:46.519 and then the next morning he made breakfast. That just 396 00:22:46.559 --> 00:22:48.799 starting from that, it was like, you know, this this 397 00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:51.680 guy is normal or he is he acting normal? Or 398 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:54.759 is he is he wrestling with some demon that he's 399 00:22:54.799 --> 00:22:57.640 got two sides to him. Because the night they had 400 00:22:57.720 --> 00:23:00.839 together and the relationship that started from that night is uh, 401 00:23:01.680 --> 00:23:03.640