Speaker 1: When your old career gives you lemons throwing some ice
mix in some vodka. We call it a podcast from
the Mac of All Trade Studio in Fairport and driven
by Victor Chrysler Dots. Gee rahm, it's Billified, the Bill
Moran Podcast.
Speaker 2: Well, hello and welcome. I am so excited because, uh,
doctor Rob Rice has agreed to come back become friends
with Rob through the podcast, believe it or not, Like
I think I since I started this, like all the
people I've met because of the podcast has been amazing.
And then doctor Rice comes in He's got guinness, and
I go, this is amazing. And then what's that article
over there?
Speaker 3: This is for your studio?
Speaker 4: Okay, I thought might be here, and he was here
when I first got here, so I and I wasn't
sure where things are at right now. In terms of
drink drinking, I've been asking you to have a beer
with me forever, yes, and uh it hasn't worked out.
And so I figured, well, then drink, I'm going to
bring it here and we'll have a beer together on
the podcast.
Speaker 3: It might be the only way that it can happen.
Speaker 4: So and in just in case there are any objections,
I brought you evidence that guinness is actually good for you,
and I thought that this would be good for the podcast.
Speaker 2: WHI is great for the podcast?
Speaker 4: So h so yes, that's it actually legitimately is good
for you. I've been living by that for a long time. Yeah,
I do dried January, but Guinness doesn't count.
Speaker 2: How about how about the same guinas that beer expert
Michael Jackson, this British King of Hops calls the world
uh classic dry stout. It's a favorite bono obviously Madonna
with a good cigar. I love this beer. I have
loved this beer for years. This is really cool. We
can hang this up in here. Yeah, that's oh thanks,
that is really cool of you.
Speaker 4: Doctor Williams. Who you know Tom Williams. He calls it
the only true breakfast beer.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I used to call it my chocolate milk when
I was you know, or mother's milk. Yep, Mother's milk
is another stout like this. Do you ever have that? No?
Speaker 3: I didn't know.
Speaker 4: There's a real really yeah, just they have a really
good at Aurora Brewing right now. They have one called
for Fook's sake, Where's uh? Aurora is right on It's
in bushtos Basin right on.
Speaker 2: Oh that's the one. Yeah, I haven't been to there
when it was a seventh story.
Speaker 4: Yes, yeah, i'd be there, that would be And they
have they have something that tastes like I'm really critical
of anything that that says that they're like a nitro
stout and they try to because a Guinness, I think
is really unique.
Speaker 3: It is, but this, for Fook's sake, at uh at
Aurora is solid.
Speaker 2: It's really I like that is it like a Japanese
I don't know why Irish because it means like for fox,
it's excuse me, was the size of the planet that
way as.
Speaker 3: To say it? And you'll know what it's believe me.
Speaker 2: I know. I wanted to have you back because I
felt like the last time you were on, I didn't
we didn't talk about your book well enough, and I didn't.
I felt like I underserved you on that one. And
I really really connected with your book. And I thought
it would be because the whole portion of the book
where you talk about and it's it's let me step
back here cliff notes, and I thought was the final
title of cliff Notes, contemplating Life's meeting on the edge Okay,
so this is about you and your family and I
think another family or another couple. We're going to go
and it's is it mohawks, mox the Mountains, mox A Mountain,
That's what it was, mox the Mountain and your daughters
and dogs are up ahead, and all of a sudden
you hear the scream and the dog you think is
over the cliff, and it's just hanging on on this
ledge and then you don't even I think in the
book you're almost just down. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have.
Speaker 4: I don't think I would have had the guts to
go down their head.
Speaker 2: I had been conscious and I'm reading all that and
my palms got sweaty. It's so well written and so
well descriptive of that event. But everything that comes out
of that is the idea that we're one, the idea
that you and the dog are one, the connection you
had to Walter, which I think was, you know, very special.
And I went back four years later. Yeah, and all
that's laid out in the book, but I go, boy,
that that's it's just amazing. And the connection and the
people that come along, like the I don't I'm forgetting
the names muscular guy with the mohawk and then was
separate from Carl. Right.
Speaker 3: I actually never learned the most.
Speaker 2: I wanted to make sure. I just know I have
the book and I didn't have time to go back
and really check it out.
Speaker 4: And I'm like, Okay, I'm wondering someday maybe these guys
will like come across the book and.
Speaker 3: Be like, I think that was me.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, interesting.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm friends with the actual guy who you know, ultimately,
you know, led the rescue and rescued me. You know,
spoiler alert, you know all that we called called for
a helicopter.
Speaker 2: We didn't need one, yeah, but it seemed like the
helicopter was taking forever it would have.
Speaker 3: And yeah, I was.
Speaker 4: I was down twenty thirty feet down on the side
of the cliff, nothing to really hold on to other
than you know, the little bit of graveled and stuff
that I could grab on the and then I had.
Speaker 3: Walter on my shoulder.
Speaker 2: Did Walter slip down?
Speaker 4: He I didn't watch it, my daughter saw it, but
you know they they made it sound like he got
too close to the edge and the slipped and felt, yeah, just.
Speaker 2: Like the earth moved out from under his sposs pretty much.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, And it was like Indiana Jones and the
Temple of Doom level stuff, right like straight down probably
a thousand feet, So yeah, I wouldn't have. I think
it was one of those moments where you know, Walter
is just my best friend, and I saw that, and
the next thing I knew, I was on the side
of the was on the side of the cliff with
him kind of resting in my shoulders, and and so yeah,
the book's about that hour really on the side of
the cliff and things that I was thinking, and when
I came back from the cliff, the conversations I had
with people like well you and and Tom Williams and
doctor McCabe and doctor LaRue, all the folks that we
hang out with sometimes in terms of making sense of
just how it all like.
Speaker 3: It's just the wildest thing.
Speaker 2: There's so many things in the book because you think
about you, you talk about your family, you talk about
your daughters, you talk about you know, your wife's up there,
and am I ever going to see them again? And
all I think in my mind with the book, you
were just hearing their voices. No one was getting that
close to the edge to look over and go, or
your wife did.
Speaker 3: My wife got your wife at the edge and she
said it was dizzying.
Speaker 2: Yes, but I think everybody else was more just their voices.
Speaker 4: You could hear, yeah, yeah, you couldn't get very close.
And Carl, the guy who ultimately well Carl was something else.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, he actually he fell the first time, but luckily
not the full thousand feet, you know, just just above
me and was able to grasp onto the side of
the clip and kind of scurry back up.
Speaker 3: And yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 2: It was crazy, but all the things that went on
in your mind and contemplating life and its meaning and
what is our purpose here? And the idea that we're
all one. And we've had many many I feel like
there's been many i'll call them teachers that have come
to try to tell us that and show us that
and prove it to us. And I would even mock
me on this one, but I'd even say Bob Marley
to a certain extent, was always saying we are are
one and relax and all this, and you know, then
Bob did with a lot of people, yes, and then
there's a lot of people like you know, religion sometimes
can be made to manipulate people, and I think they've
changed Rastafarians so they could have sex with the younger girl.
I don't know, there's all theory on that, but the
point is that there's always this message and to feel
that connection and to be alone with your thoughts in
a moment of I don't know what's next. I don't
I don't know what's next. Like we like a plan
as human beings, we want that. We want to know what's.
Speaker 4: Coming until it comes, right until it happens, and then
we're there right exactly. And that's what that was, right
when you know they couldn't imagine being in that situation
until you're in that situation m m. And then time
slows down and mystical things happen and you know it's
it's uh and I feel like there's so many of
these cool things that not just me, anybody experiences in
their life. And then afterwards, immediately afterwards, you've got this
kind of hypomania and adrenaline running and you can't believe
that it happened. And then over time kind of life
gets in the way and you kind of forget, Wow,
there was that was amazing. There was something, you know,
really mystical about that and so, and that was one
of the reasons for writing this up was because I
didn't want to lose kind of that that feeling I had,
not just afterwards, but on the cliff, because there's something
happened while I was on the cliff, right, And then
it became a good structure for talking about you know,
our aubuntu, as doctor LaRue would say, right right, you
know I am because of you, you right, you know
that we we exist because we're in this place together
right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's it's strange because I've even gone in
my own world more that everything is a reflection of you,
which is weird, right.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's weird.
Speaker 4: I mean there are people will say that, you know,
the the universe is like a mirror, right, yes, and
then everything to you, what you.
Speaker 2: Got, what you offer it, or what you were offering
or because then I was even talking to a family
member who said, I have been trying to manifest a
job and a different job and different this and that,
and I just I don't like the person that I do.
All she does is complain. And then I sat there
and realized, Yeah, that's me. It's just me. Being reflected
back to me through that person and you go, whoa,
and it is weird and we don't think of life
that way almost because it's I don't know that it's
too hard to but it doesn't make sense.
Speaker 3: It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 4: It's I was thinking about this this morning, and because
I knew we'd cover some of this stuff, and I
was I'm always trying as a you know, as a
tenured professor, I want to make sure that I'm not
coming across as too.
Speaker 3: Woo woo and things like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, let me give that real quick. You are the
head of the psychology department at St.
Speaker 3: John Fisheral Council.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's a graduate program at Saint John Fisher
University at Fisher. Yeah, great place to be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is impressive what's going on over there.
Speaker 4: That was originally why I reached out to you, is
because when I wrote the first book, which I had
nothing to do with you know, this kind of it
was actually about.
Speaker 3: Using the oh yeah, yeah, yeah, with young people in therapy.
Speaker 4: I thought of you is because I knew you were
a Fisher Graham and I'd always appreciated some of the
thoughts you had on things on the radio, like you know,
you know it's this idea that you know, what we
put out there back to us.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but if that's the case, like you, I mean,
do you feel like when you got off the side
of the cliff, And I know this is in the
in the book, but I'll like you kind of the feeling,
did you ever stop and think that's me coming back
to me? I I I saved myself. I know. It
was the mohawk and Carl and all these people and
the hoisting up and dropping leashes down and swinging it
over and when you're reaching for the leash. God, I'm
reading this in bed, I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, oh my god, I'm glad it came across, Like
it really came across.
Speaker 2: But I'm picturing it in my head and I know
you so maybe but it wouldn't matter or I was like, wow,
but did you ever feel like that's me being reflected
back to me? It's exactly what I would have done
these people.
Speaker 3: That are here, Jeez, I never thought about.
Speaker 2: I didn't either, and it wasn't said in the book.
I'm just saying it now because I go, you do
a lot of good, and I think sometimes we don't
recognize that within ourselves because we're told we shouldn't right,
we should We're always told, you know, be humble, be this,
be that, and maybe it's okay to privately go I'm
a good person and I do good stuff. And it
just came back to me.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's not where my head was at, right.
Speaker 4: No, No, I know it was going up we were,
you know, it was I typically like I finished the
high the forty six hig Peaks in the Aroundics with
my oldest daughter just a couple of years ago, and
which we actually did after this experience, and I really
enjoy that kind of thing. This, this particular hike was
a family hike. Yeah, you know, we had my our
really good friend and their dog with us too, and
I kind of felt responsible for the whole group. It
wasn't high peak, it wasn't an especially difficult mountain. It
was only like five miles to the top or something
like that.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: And so I going up there, you know, as I
was climbing, I felt like this, Oh geez, I just
want to be you know, part of this. I just
want to enjoy this right now. But I've got all
I've got to make sure that you know, my my
kids are Okay, everybody's said and every time I hear
someone get I guess.
Speaker 2: At some point you say something like I we want
to listen to the trees, yes, bathing, You want to yeah, right,
we want to hear them sucking the water up, like
hear the sounds that you can't hear. Yes, but we
knowlways going on.
Speaker 3: Yes, that is that's the idea.
Speaker 4: It's a nature based approach to approach to therapy called
forest bathing, and and I teach it to my clients.
But you know, in this particular moment, it was a
hard place. It was hard to do that because I
had all of these competing obligations, and so after coming
back up to answer your question, it was just this
intense gratitude, right, Like you know, I was maybe before that,
I was kind of not annoyed that I wasn't by
myself in the woods, but like annoyed that I had
all these you know, obligations and things that I needed
to focus on. And then you know, after that, you know,
you know, forty five minutes to an hour on the
side of the cliff, I was just filled with gratitude, right.
I was grateful to the people who helped me out.
I was grateful to the dogs because they had the
leashes that we were able to tie together. I was
grateful to my wife for throwing me the cliff bar
because my sugar went low. I was grateful, so, you know,
and like all of those things. Yeah, Like it's it's like,
you know, it's like when you lose your keys and
then you find them and everything is great again. Right,
not only great again, but better than it ever was
before you lost your keys.
Speaker 3: Right right inside? That was I think the feeling that
I had.
Speaker 2: Yeah, how long did that last? Days? Yeah?
Speaker 4: And that's so I brought it back to our group, right,
I always say when I'm when I'm teaching my classes,
I I asked my students if they've ever been to
like a diner and seen you know, the five eighty
year old guys in the corner, you know, drinking coffee
and you know, because I used to.
Speaker 3: Go in No, well I had.
Speaker 4: Maybe sometimes we're yes, but I always was envious of
those I feel like, what a life to get up
and go have your coffee in the diner with people
who know you relate to and I and we ended
up finding a group like that. Yeah, And then we'll
have breakfast with those folks every once in a while.
And so I had one of those breakfasts coming right
back from this, uh, this experience, and I shared it
with them, and you know, they're the ones who encouraged
me to write it up and because I was still,
you know, really amped up about it, and yeah, just
kind of took off from there.
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It's very instrted to seeing it the path. People go like,
what took you the academic to keep going on on
the mental health and the doctor program, Because that's that's
a lot of work, man, And that's a lot of work.
And I will tell you having done what im not
their mind. Let's that's not right. But it's more physical
than writing a paper at times, is more exhausting than
building a brick wall.
Speaker 3: It's a it's a different kind of Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean it really can train you.
Speaker 4: It can I think mainly because of you know, the
the rewrites and you know, being able to accept feedback
and things like that. Right, that's the difference between I
think writing something and building a brick wall. Right, you
build a brick wall, you can get all the energy out,
you can stand back and you can look at it
and you can admire what right, and you know, no
one's gonna come and say, oh, you put that brick
in the wrong place and put a different brick in there, right,
I'm writing, It's like you build that brick wall, and
then you got to knock it down, and then you
build again, and then people someone comes over and points
something out and you got to knock it down, and
then over time you're just knocking down little parts and
rebuilding those, right. But and so yeah, I think that's
for me probably a difference between writing and building a
brick wall. And I think I said on here before
you know it's it's also a way of just sharpening
your tools, right, yeah, twenty five percent of the time,
twenty five We got to one of my mentors, doctor McCabe,
who you know, is a woodworker, and he suggests that
no matter you know, what we want to do, if
it's meaningful, we should dedicate twenty five percent of our
time to sharpening our tools, which basically means, you know,
we're not going to get you know, one hundred percent
productivity out of you know, out of a day, right,
we're going to go you know, twenty five percent of
that was sharpening our tools and helping us do what
we need to do. And that's okay, right, We're not
going to do the other seventy five percent really well
unless we dedicate that twenty five percent to sharpening.
Speaker 2: I think that's yes. I've heard him say that, and
I think that it's very true and something that many
times we don't do. So sitting in the practice of
whatever it is, you know, even exercise or meditation, all
of it is sharpening your tools, your body or whatever.
Speaker 4: The results right, yes, yes, the results exactly. You've got
to If you're not seeing results, then it's you gotta
make sense of it somehow.
Speaker 2: But I've been impressed because I remember saying to you,
how are you doing all this?
Speaker 3: And he said to me, I don't watch TV.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just go and do it. And I was
asked for an intention for the healing that I had,
and I said, I want to have a follow her.
That's what I want follow her. And it made me
think of you, because I go, boy, doctor rig I
mean everything from your daughter is an elite athlete, which just.
Speaker 3: Picked for just Thursday.
Speaker 4: She got She's the only kid in Western New York
to make it to the US and the nationals for
USA field hockey. So there's a one hundred and thirteen
girls from around the whole country who got chosen for
this in Virginia Beach in July, and twenty seven of
them will end up being on the US national team.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then the US national team. Is this the
the Olympic team or potentially or is this the under
like a certain.
Speaker 4: But I think they it changes every year, right, and
so some of the girls would would be potentially on
the Olympics. You know, my daughter is young right now,
she's only sixteen. Yeah, but it's that's it's that's the pathway.
This is the Yeah, you know, you get to nationals,
you make it and then it's incredible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm so, it's so cool.
Speaker 2: It's how did she how did that come about?
Speaker 4: She grew up playing ice hockey. So at some point
I got to talk to Kevin and I respect him
so much as a as a hockey staff today.
Speaker 2: Saint Lawrence University, maybe.
Speaker 3: That's where my oldest daughter goes.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, it's a great hockey program, and yeah, I
respect any hockey parent. It's a lot of a lot,
a lot of work, a lot of travel. I mean
she started the Yeah, yeah, she started playing ice hockey
and then that kind of she learned how to play
really fast. And then once she started playing field hockey,
it was just kind of comically good because she was
used to playing on the ice and now everything was
moving slow for her. And so it's so much fun,
so much fun to watch.
Speaker 2: I love it. She uh wow. And then she's going
college on yep.
Speaker 3: Yep, she's going.
Speaker 4: Well, she's going to Wagner, which is so now. I
got to talk to Doug yep, because he went to Wagner.
When I listened to the podcast here, I'm like, oh
my god, I got to talk to that guy for that. Yeah,
I gotta get Dougs in president. So she's going to
Wagner and play D one field hockey and yeah, goes amazing. Yeah,
it's man, the process is ridiculous. I feel something again.
You know, you've got Jamison's a freshman right now. I
know he got some aspirations around basketball. You know, it's
not too early to really start thinking about these things.
You know, we probably were a year late getting avas
started in the recruiting process. Uh, you know, the the
D one programs are their kids are committing in their
front their sophomore year.
Speaker 2: I think I just read Separate a young man from
Monroe High School. I think he's a junior committed to
Oregon football.
Speaker 4: I saw that on Yeah, I saw it on prime
time on their primetime five five Instagram feed.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Kids like, that's impressive, but you have another year
of high school.
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I mean, actually it's late to commit to
a school like Oregon. You know, a lot of I'm
going to guess that he was one of their last
commits because a lot most big D one programs now
the kids are committing their sophomore year.
Speaker 3: Wow, it's crazy. Yeah, and it doesn't seem right right,
Like you know, it doesn't usually time to develop.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, all of a sudden, somebody shoots
up and I don't know for sure. Yeah, yeah, it
so this has got to be a big deal in
the family for everybody.
Speaker 3: It's exciting. I think it would be.
Speaker 2: I mean, to me, it's it's amazing, and I I
love that you. I love your enthusiasm with it, your
post and you've been along for the ride. You've really
been the passenger in this. But it's giving us all
a view of it, it's the greatest.
Speaker 4: I'm an equipment manager, yeah, and it's it's the greatest.
And I'm probably the last person she wants to hear from,
but you know, I have those rare moments where she
wants to know what I think about something and I
just did.
Speaker 3: Just Uh, it's it's fantastic. I've got three daughters and
they're all super different.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 4: My oldest is a you know, mountaineer. She's guiding this
summer in the other rondeck. She's living on a in
a in a yurt on an island for the fall semester.
Instead of studying abroad, she's going and living on an
island in a yurt for the whole semester, and her
professors will paddle out to her, you know, each week.
What Yeah, where Saint Lawrence University? Yeah yeah, yeah, and
then yeah, what time of years is this?
Speaker 2: In the fall? Yeah?
Speaker 3: I know. And there's no showers, there's no running water,
there's no electricity. That there she's it's uh, it's badass.
I'm so impressed.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm jealous and kind of like amazed that she
would want to do this, but yes, she does. And
then you know, Ava's the field hockey player. And then
I had a twelve year old who's you know, a
puppy parent at the moment.
Speaker 2: That's great, Yes, he knew puppy in the house.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: A lot of questionable decisions happening this spring.
Speaker 2: That's all right. It makes it all fun, It makes
it interesting, interesting for sure. So you with your daughters
and then I know you, you see a lot of
youth through mindfit gem.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So mindfit is my private practice.
Speaker 2: And I love the name, by the way. I appreciate
that only because I think that is absolutely the best
way to look at mental health.
Speaker 4: Well that was the original idea, right, and it's still
somewhere there in my mind. And you and I are
in a similar place in life and that we've I
think you feel kind of the time clock taking right.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I said that.
Speaker 3: The other day.
Speaker 2: I go, if there's if the average human lives to
seventy eight in America, and I got twenty four years left,
I get moving.
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, And so that's motivation and this is all that.
Speaker 4: The idea for mind fit came about about ten years ago,
and what I really wanted to do is I wanted
to essentially create a gym for mental health. And so
the idea, I see a lot of people who are neurodivergent,
people on the autism spectrum, and I use a lot
of like biofeedback and neurofeedback and that type of technology
and my work video game stuff, and so I wanted
to create a space where we would have all that
technology available, you know, stations for positive thinking, stations for mindfulness,
stations for biofeedback, things like that, just like you'd see
you know, stations for different you know, muscle groups and
a gym, and then have interns from Saint John Fisher,
you know, essentially play the role of trainer and then
instead of having a like you come to an appointment
and you know, talk about your problems type model, right,
we would have sure, sure you could access individual group
or group of counseling. But once you feel like you've
got the what you need, we can provide the biofeedback,
te technology, we can provide you know, the tools that
you need to come in and practice that on your own.
And so like a gym, you would come in and
use your membership and there might be a class going
one day on mindfulness that you could participate in if
you remember, and so yeah, that's still the kind of
vision is that we would have essentially a gym for
mental health.
Speaker 2: I love it because I do think that I don't
know if we look at you hear a lot about
mental health awareness, But what's the next step beyond awareness
the society needs to know about. And that's the stuff
that I because here's why often I'll hear things that
would fall under mental health. It's my anxiety, but it's
said in a glib way, yeah, like you know, almost
as though I you know. And I thought, how do
you make meaningful change in those areas when I don't
know that we fully grasp or understand what mental health is?
And just like your body, if you're not going to
the gym, slowly you gain the weight and you get
out of shape and you can't lift as much and
you can't because you're not exercising those muscles. And I
that's why I love the idea of the mind fit gym.
But what in mental health? How do we kind of
change that with everybody?
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's I think part of it's the words we use, right,
I don't even I don't even love I don't love
the term mental health issues.
Speaker 3: Right, it's it's mental illness. Let's call it what it is, right.
Speaker 4: I you mentioned anxiety when you When I teach anxiety
how to work with anxiety to my graduate students and fisher,
the first thing I do is I have them, you know,
get in groups and come up with a sentence without
using Google that they can all agree on a one
sentence definition of anxiety, right, And and I out of
ten times that definition is something like, you know, excessive
worry that causes you know, pain, and you know it
makes it hard to do the things you need to do,
and you're life.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 4: It's all sorts of really problem based ideas. And I
know that I'm doing this when I when I ask
them to do this activity, but I'm really catching them
to remind them, Hey, I know you've been in school
to learn about mental illness all this time and how
to treat mental illness. Anxiety isn't a mental illness. We
need anxiety. Anxiety is super important, right, And I work
with athletes, you know, when we talk about anxiety and
how to manage anxiety. Right, that's where we start with
the kind of the definition of that word. Right, you know,
most athletes will say, well, anxiety is what you know,
is what prevents. It's what makes me think that I
can't do something or pernects me from doing what I
want to be able to do right, And I said no, No,
anxiety means that you care, right, and what would you
rather be doing than something you care about.
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leo's because the best Thing about leo's, is everything and
a lot of. TIMES too i will tell, people THAT
and i don't know what it does to the, ticket
price but day of they'll release the friends and family
usually because they always. Hold back and THAT'S how i
got great Seats to Haul and, oates right because somebody knew.
Speaker 3: The drummer sometimes if you're willing to take, the risk
that's THAT'S what.
Speaker 2: I do For the.
Speaker 4: Bills games, BILLS games i don't even we go and.
We plan we figure we might not get into, the
game but we'll have, fun tailgating and so we go plan.
Our tailgate we go to our tailgate thing and then
right as the, game starting we look to see if
we can get something to.
Speaker 3: Get tickets and it's every time.
Speaker 2: It's worked.
Speaker 4: You know one time we were two, years ago maybe
maybe three, years ago we did that and we ended up.
Speaker 3: Getting box SEATS. WITH. O. J, simpson, yeah yeah like
we were In, A yeah i got.
Speaker 2: A picture, oh yeah this is.
Speaker 3: The greatest, It's, crazy, yes yeah.
Speaker 4: It was so we were, in separate like we're in
the same kind of, box area but he had a.
Different Door and i'm pretty sure at some POINT because
i saw HIM and i saw what, was HAPPENING and
i just started laughing uncontrollably because it was just one
of those kind, of, nervous weird oh, MY god i
can't believe this is happening. Type things and he looked,
at me, you know as if, you know what's this
guy laughing at?
Speaker 3: Me for and he closed.
Speaker 4: The door and THEN so i in my in, MY
fantasies i think that like, that night he was going
to bed thinking why was that guy laughing?
Speaker 2: At me did you get any picture?
Speaker 4: OR anything i got a picture of him with other
people getting. A picture i didn't felt it. FELT icky.
Speaker 2: I am so with you, On THAT but i find.
THE whole i find human beings just.
Speaker 4: So much people were so wanting to get selfies. With,
them yeah they were smiling and so happy to.
Speaker 2: Get interesting, because oh for a lot of the people
that were, taking pictures they never saw him carry. A
football i will be honest, with you my dad was
not a. FOOTBALL fan i became a football fan at a.
Young AGE but i was at an AGE where oj
was on the Cover Of sports illustrated as a forty.
NINE er i didn't know he played For The, buffalo
BILLS and i know.
Speaker 3: Him as the actor and the. Naked, GUN yeah i had.
Speaker 2: No idea, and then of course we know what happened
In ninety it was, ninety three, ninety four, ninety, four,
yeah yes, ninety four and then the trial was ninety
five and and just all, of, that right and since
then we've seen all. The stuff and then. He DIED
but i would love to Go on twitter and Hear.
HIS twitter i couldn't. Follow him i'd try To, find
Yeah hate. TWITTER world i found, him, interesting, intelligent likable
all the things that made him what. HE was, i mean,
come on but yet this dark side to, this GUY
and i always wanted, to know like what is in?
That head and maybe you can even answer this to
some degree without being. The person but how do you?
Walk around i'm not saying he. Did it i'm saying
everybody thinks he. Did it how do you? Walk around
how do you show your face? In public how are you?
This thing and then there is this weird Thing in
america where we come around full circle. With people we,
want you we love when you're, on top and then
we want to knock you off and then we'll bring you.
Back AGAIN and i was just saying to the guys
because we taped an, EPISODE earlier, I Go tom cruise
is an example. OF that a few, years ago he's
Jumping on oprah's couch and we're calling him, awful guy
and he's yelling about postpartum depression and the depression Meds
That brooks shields, is on and he's Arguing With matt
lauer and we know what Happened, to matt and we
see all this stuff and now like he was kind of,
You Know, tom cruise he's crazy. As scientologists. He's this now, we're,
going hey you save The movie street DURING right, i
mean do. We not you saved the move into INDUSTRY
during covid, and oh by, the way hell of a
stunt man could have been a great. Stunt man as
a matter, Of fact i'm. PRETTY sure i keep Reading
as i'm very excited for this RIDICULOUS movie f one.
Coming out but it's the same people who produced The second,
maverick Movie The top, Gun movie and, they, said yeah
we Didn't.
Speaker 3: WANT tom i heard that thought he'd. Kill, himself, yeah yeah.
Speaker 2: Because he would take it. Too FAR and i go you,
but again somewhat of a. FULL, CIRCLE oj i felt
like went from hero to zero and almost almost back in.
Some way we certainly got on the plus side of
that because every time he Came, to BUFFALO and I thought,
i COULDN'T but i would certainly WATCH because i want,
to say what? Is that and nothing else was? EVER
like oj did nothing? Else, Bad right he stole his
own stuff back and they punished him for.
Speaker 4: The, murders yeah probably think there was probably some domestic.
VIOLENCE stuff, i think.
Speaker 2: Oh, there was but prior, to, that, yes right but
we didn't know.
Speaker 4: About it we didn't know about it, All, RIGHT yeah
i don't know how you would walk around.
Speaker 3: Having that, YOU know i tend to think that he.
Did it, you know my.
Speaker 4: ME too i thought your question was going to be
around how can you like walk around as how can
you on one hand do that something like that and
then on the other hand like be this, you know
larger in the life person Go on twitter, and all,
you know and, you know that's my answer to that
IS there's i think we we, assume that, you know
mental illness and violence are, are correlated and. They're not,
you know people who are mentally ill are far more
likely to be victimized than the, oh sure yeah then
and so there's only two diagnoses that have any correlation
or relationship, to violence and that's a particular type of
schizophrenia and a particular type of post traumatic.
Speaker 3: Stress disorder outside.
Speaker 4: Of that it's far less likely that you would be
violent if you have a. Mental illness and and so
there's lots of reasons that cause violence and those types
of things. To happen and what is a sociopath a
sociopath would be it's it's a kind of more in
the personality, disorders, Category right if you've heard of antisocial,
personality disorder, you know some people assume that that means
all that person's. Not social they don't they won't hang out,
with you they don't look you in. The eye that's actually.
The opposite usually someone who has antisocial personality disorder is
some time to be some of the most charming people
that you're ever going, To meet like a PERSON. Like,
oj RIGHT and i have absolutely no regard for, you
know rules or norms or in many cases, you know
your feelings.
Speaker 2: Or your well BEING that i. DON'T know. I thought
i've read in the past that CEOs of companies have
some of, those traits not that they, are sociopaths but
they have that COLD blooded i don't want to say
cold my ability to fire somebody make make, hard decisions
make hard decisions that will affect people's lives for the
betterment of, the company or we like to think that,
or WHATEVER but. I, DON'T yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean i think there's some research that says that
people get to a high level oftentimes have some. Narcissistic
qualities but that's different than ming.
Speaker 3: A sociopath, I yeah. I am.
Speaker 2: It's a. Tough one it's a. Tough, one yeah it's
JUST the oj THING is i. FOUND it i find
it fascinating just watching people and how they interact with something,
like that someone, like that someone who was accused. Of
that And again I'LL say i think he. Did it
we never got a definitive answer in the.
Speaker 3: Court of law other than well didn't fit a.
Speaker 2: Civil trial but, even there at, that point you're kind,
of going he ain't paying the, money anyway so and
he's not going. To jail so what's the real consequence?
Of THIS and, i, go why how do you HOW
do i feel? About this, in word what's my reaction?
To IT and, I go i am fascinated by people
and how they react. To that i'm fascinated by people
and how they react to. Famous people.
Speaker 3: It's amazing it's fascinated by how people function.
Speaker 4: ON it, I mean I SOMETIMES i i SOME days
i feel, really stupid but nan, IN general i Feel
like i'm a relatively, you know intelligent person and life, is, hard,
Yes right SO and i look AROUND and i see
like all the people who are somehow Managing and, I'M
like i don't know how is everybody?
Speaker 2: Doing this but, That okay so back to like what
we talked, about earlier and some of the doctor deep
things that you have certainly experienced MORE than. I have
but the idea that it's. Already done just relax the
sayings that we've heard all, our lives like Going, like
god like going, like it but.
Speaker 3: We can't what?
Speaker 2: Is that why do we we have to feel like
we need to be in control of everything where instead
of go with. The flow, you know it's so much
harder to swim upstream than it is to just go with.
Speaker 3: The, FLOW yeah, I don't i, don't know BUT this
i think the self has to do with.
Speaker 4: It, Again, yeah like we we have this connection to
the self when we're in this body and, you know living,
this life and that's gotta it's it helps, keep us,
you know on on track when we're in. This life
maybe if we were going with the flow all, the
time right then then there would be that, You know
i'm assuming that the self exists for, a, reason, right
yes and that uh, you know we these mechanisms within
us exist for, a reason. Right right but, UH yeah
i also agree that it seems like at everything when
you look at it from a quantum perspective or all
the stuff that we're, learning about, you know it kind of.
Doesn't matter everything's already. Been done it's almost like people
talk about, simulation THEORY which i don't necessarily, ascribed TO
but i do like the idea of simulation theory from a, therapeutic,
perspective right because the idea is that we chose. This,
Life right We chose it's not that this is it's
not that we're a player in someone. Else's game we're
still a player in our. Own game we chose. This life,
you know people who talk about, simulation theory including quantum
physicists and people, like that, will say you know that
we our soul at, some level chose to play, this
life and every difficult thing that happens in our life
is has, already happened but it's intended to be part of,
that game and it's intended to be something that teaches. A.
Speaker 3: Lesson right and so even.
Speaker 4: If that's a, ridiculous theory thinking about things from that
perspective sometimes can, be, helpful right because, ask YOURSELVES if
i really did, choose this if this is, a simulation
then what is this Thing that i'm dealing with?
Speaker 3: Right now what is it trying to?
Speaker 2: Teach?
Speaker 3: Me right WHY did i choose to have?
Speaker 4: That experience and WHAT did I think i needed, to
learn and IT'S it's i think about just a better way.
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Speaker 4: Morphic, resonance no, All right so there's this concept called.
Morphic resonance they've done a bunch of rat studies and
they would what they do is they take rats from
the same family and they would put half of Them,
in california and they would teach them how to run through,
a maze and they would have half of them On
The east coast and they would just they would have
them run through. The maze and they they found that
when they if the Rats in california who were part
of the, same family learned how to run, the maze
that the rats In The east coast would run the
maze more quickly after the Rats in california.
Speaker 3: Learned, How right and so.
Speaker 4: The theory is that there, is this especially for people
who are connected in, some way that this kind of, mutual,
learning right like if we if, you know one part
of the unit, learns something that there's something that impacts
the other part of the unit so that they're become
better at it or they become more Able to and.
Speaker 2: This is mice that were. Genetically. Connected, yep yeah that's
different coasts called.
Speaker 4: Morphic resonance if you look at research and rat learning and,
morph resonance it's.
Speaker 2: Right there so almost like they telepathically in some way
connected on who was doing what. Or understanding doesn't it
seem to? You good that's, One, argument Yeah because i'm,
you know the telepathy tapes. ARE interesting, i know you
sent me. Another Episode i'm i'm a, little BEHIND but i.
HAVE enjoyed I think i've listened to seven episodes. OF
that i find, it fascinating, super cool really find. It
fascinating it's TOUGH.
Speaker 4: Because i work with a lot of parents of people,
with autism and, you know there's some, concern that, you
know this type of thing is giving people false hope
and stuff, like that And so i'm really cautious ABOUT
who i talk to about it AND how. I present but,
it's fascinating.
Speaker 2: IT'S fascinating i almost feel like there's some truth. TO
that i did a. WEIRD experience i had two non
verbally MEN when i, was subbing and the one each
one of them had one to, one aides and the
one guy's aide went, to lunch and so he plopped
them down in a chair and he was sort of
sitting near me and we just. Started TAPPING so i,
WAS like i know you can, Hear ME so i,
start tapping and then he'd taken my hand and he's
tapping and we're, doing it and then another boy who
doesn't speak he. Comes over now we're on on this giant,
bean bag and that kid's laying next to me and
puts his head in my lap and is like taking
my hand to hit his ribs to keep, the Rhythm and, i'm,
like boy there WAS something i was trying, To, say,
HEY hey i know you're. IN there i know you're,
in THERE and i get, nothing right, NO experience i can't.
Say anything but it was after hearing some of the
telepathy TAPES and, i went this, is amazing and we're.
Speaker 4: Underestimating, things yeah, WELL we i mean would be ignorant
TO say i think that we don't you know that we, understand,
EVERYTHING right i think it's fair to say that we
are consciously aware of maybe one percent of what's, happening,
Around right and so if that's, the case, then yeah
there's lots of stuff that we, don't understand and we
need to keep an. Open mind the tricky part again
is where, you know sometimes we try to create words
to describe, these things and we can kind of take
it go off on our own narrative and agenda, with
them and then that's when it becomes hard to accept
or believe because we kind of get in, the.
Speaker 2: Way right exactly exactly what are the these these.
Speaker 4: Are quotes from, so yeah we don't have to go
THROUGH many i would like to hear Some of so
this IS after i started working With. Doctor, deep yes
he somehow identified me to do these interviews with these.
Global experts it's hard to explain the, whole CONTEXT but
i had an opportunity to meet with over twenty just really,
a people some Of them, nobel laureates, you know people who,
you know Professors at Harvard and CAMBRIDGE AND u C.
L a and in the new Book that, I'M writing
i transcribed the INTERVIEWS that i did, with THEM and
I actually ai wasn't involved in the quotes that we're
going to look, at now but for some, of them,
they were, you know folks who didn't speak Very, good
english AND so i ran THEM through ai and it
cleaned it up and it made it easier to understand and.
Pretty amazing and So what i'm trying, to do what
we're trying to do With This Complimentary treatment methods Class
at fisher is start to open the eyes of mental
health counselors and other professionals to some of these concepts
and think about how they can integrate them into their
practice without becoming, you know woo woo or without being,
you know without, losing, Credibility right and so we're taking
things like, you know the telepathy tapes and reiki and
all these different areas where there's there's plenty of evidence
to suggest that there's, something, there right and we're trying
to examine. It critically we're trying to, Think, about okay
what could, this mean what's safe for us to bring
to our clients and. Talk about and so these INTERVIEWS
that i did were kind of along. Those lines and
there were three interviews in PARTICULAR that i isolated to.
Focus on one Was With, madame thanngelovu who is a
genetic researcher Out. Of cambridge he's amazing guy who cuts
up genes and studies what's inside. Of them, and yeah
he's really interested in the eighty percent of genes that
We don't actually it's higher. THAN that i forgot the,
exact percentage but there's a high percentage OF each dna
that we don't know what, it, does right and we
call IT.
Speaker 3: Junk dna ye don't know what?
Speaker 4: It does and he examined that's his specialty is looking
AT junk dna and trying to figure out what. It
does so he was one of the GENTLEMEN that. I
interviewed I Interviewed, moro zapatara who IS a Phdmd from
harvard now we're at u C l a studying cerebral spinal.
Fluid UH and I Interviewed John, stewart reid who is an.
Acoustic physicist, he uh he did an amazing experiment where
he went into the pyramids and ran sound through the
different through. The carsophagus. And uh when there was when
he ran certain frequencies through, the carsophagus hieroglyphs showed up in.
Speaker 3: The. Sand, wow yeah he wrote a book.
Speaker 4: About it there, were witnesses there's uh and AND so
i got to speak with all three of them because
they all have their own particular along with a number of.
OTHER people, i mean they all had their own particular
interest and connection to naddi and to energy and its
potential uses.
Speaker 3: And healing and so so the goal was it's kind of.
Dense STUFF and i asked the students to watch.
Speaker 4: These INTERVIEWS but i knew that coming into class and,
saying okay would you think of the interview wasn't going
to go. Very far they were gonna probably h going
to be pretty quiet and not be able to to really,
talk much AND so i pulled out some of the
quote it's from those INTERVIEWS that i thought were, especially
cool and we just passed them around and we just
went around in a circle and each student would read
one of the quotes and then on a scale of one,
to five they would say how much it resonated, With,
them so, you know one would be that it didn't
really resonate with me. At all five would be that
resonated really strong with me for. Whatever reason and then
we would talk about what are some potential applications to,
your work what are some potential applications to being a
mental health counselor that you could pull, From this and,
SO yeah i brought a few of those TODAY because
i wasn't sure where this conversation was going.
Speaker 3: To go and it's fair and they are.
Speaker 4: Pretty cool, so yeah maybe maybe pick like two, of them,
and okay we'll. Do that maybe pick like two of
them that, you like and we'll do the same thing
with YOU that i did with. My students don't you
want me to?
Speaker 2: Read it, so yeah, Go, ahead okay this perspective shifts
how we view the world if, We dwell i'm the idea,
long enough it can transform how we interpret life and just.
DECISION making i often ask people to reflect on a
seemingly simple yet, profound question why did you choose?
Speaker 4: Your parents m, all, right, so uh scale a one.
To five how much did that resonate?
Speaker 2: With you why did you choose? Your? Parents Well probably
i'm going to my knee jerk, answers THREE but i
think it's actually higher.
Speaker 4: Than, that, okay, yeah yeah and then we would again
have a conversation about potential applications to.
Speaker 2: Mental.
Speaker 3: Health right this is that idea that, you.
Speaker 2: Know in some ways shows you signed.
Speaker 4: A contract the future informs, the, present right and and
it also speaks to that idea, that yes, you signed
you made, this decision you signed. A, CONTRACT yeah i
mean so this is the person who said That Was,
madame thanglovu the. Genetic scientist, Really ye and that quote,
comes from, you know his own interpretation of a lot
of really cool genetic research that, he's, done right and he, you,
KNOW yeah i will not do, a justice but, you
know based on cutting apart genes and looking at jeens in,
you know kids, and parents you know he's able to
make a reasonable argument that, you know the kids probably
chose their parents at some point in order for the
genes to parse out.
Speaker 2: Like that, really, yeah yeah sometimes. YOU yeah i mean
you ever see like there's a kid that does an
amazing something and becomes somebody where the parents were not
even close to that and it is something. Like that,
all right let's see. One more we'll do.
Speaker 3: One.
Speaker 2: More okay the concept of, the observer, the observed and
the process of observation, a trinity forms an essential Foundation in. Indian.
Philosophy okay the perspectives lead to the realization that the
observer and the observed are, not separate but part of the,
same unit the observer and. The, observe okay, if intelligence if,
intelligent operates if intelligence operates within this, unified framework then
all intelligence, is finite yet capable of integrating with deeper
realms beyond. Conventional understanding that, one's yeah that.
Speaker 3: ONE'S deep i don't want.
Speaker 2: To say that was like a sixth, for me because
it was the last sentence that intelligence, is finite there's
there there's an end, to it or there's an amount,
to it yet capable of integrating with deeper realms beyond, conventional,
understanding so which almost makes it sound like it wouldn't
be finite in a certain, you know going with, VERSE
depth i, don't know, but yeah, that's interesting and it.
Speaker 3: Also speaks to that idea that we were just.
Speaker 4: Talking about it's ironic that you chose, that, one right
this idea that everything's kind of. Our, fault, Yeah right
and this is that kind of idea that, you know we,
you know that nothing happens without not just our engagement,
in it but our observation of it and our, you
know making meaning.
Speaker 2: Of.
Speaker 4: It right, you know there's research that says that there's
certain things like if you look at in, an, atom
right there's certain forget if it's the protons or, the
electrons that will only appear if we're looking at, them
right if we're observing, them right, All right and so
that quote speaks to some extent to that process of,
you know nothing really is without us making meaning.
Speaker 3: Of, It yes and that's something you say all.
Speaker 2: The time there's no meaning to any of this other
than the meaning apply, to it which is basically the.
Same THING and i only say that because a lot
Of times i've seen, my kids myself get upset about
something that when you step away. From it, oh gosh
that really didn't. Mean anything WHY did i? Do THAT and,
i thought WHY did i give it that? Meaning There
because i'm the only one given at. That meaning nobody
else is walking around with their. Head down Doctor, rob
rice the head of the Mental health Department Of Saint John. Fisher,
university UH and i please go get the Book With
Notes Contemplating life's meaning On. The edge it's a great
it's a. Great read that, whole scene like how you
just turn into the flash and THE one i FELT
like i just needed to talk to you a little
bit more.
Speaker 3: About that you read you read the manuscript, for that
the original and gave, me.
Speaker 2: Yes yes and then the uh YEAH what? I thought
that was one Of these we all have. The power
you gotta.
Speaker 3: Tap in you you're the REASON why i kept the
fart story. In there, that's right.
Speaker 2: YOU were i forgot you were On the that's like
the greatest. Story ever just getting a. Massage uncomfortable malmseus,
comes in ripped the.
Speaker 3: Big one my head was stuck in that padded. TOILET
seat i couldn't move for.
Speaker 2: Ripped it it, just said oh, Excuse me.
Speaker 3: Oh it, was terrible and it happened when he was
doing the. PERCUSSION thing.
Speaker 2: I forgot.
Speaker 3: ABOUT that i forgot.
Speaker 2: About, that well it's your Fault that i've actually tried
to do MORE because, i, Thought yeah, rob's right use
the time while you, got it make hay while the.
Sun shines. Let's go you're. Doing it you know what
you're doing for Doctor. Rob Rice I'm. Bill moran we
will see. You tomorrow it wouldn't have let us in,
the night would?
Speaker 3: Land it mamma's, locks bitch no sin now this besty
Bowl a Bard The breast bandates see