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Speaker 1: One of the strangest elements of the story of Christmas

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is the Massacre of the Innocence. That is in the

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story of Christmas, when King Herod finds out that the

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wise men are coming to worship the new King, he

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in order to get rid of this insurgent king, he

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decides to kill all the children under two years old

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in Bethlehem and the region. Of course, it's a very

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dark aspect of the story of Christmas, and I understand why.

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It's one word that we don't mention as much when

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we talk about the story, but it is a very

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important part of the story, and it also happens to

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be a part of the story where Christ's story manifests

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a let's say, a coming together of all these ancient

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stories that were there before. I've often said that. I've

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often said that Jesus's story is a culmination of all

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the Old Testament stories, of all the Old Time Testament prefigurations.

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And you know, it's easy to say that, but it's

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also a good idea to be able to show it.

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And in the case of the story of the Mask

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of the Innocence, we can really see this story.

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Speaker 2: And so we're going to go through what it is that.

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Speaker 1: This story is showing us how it's collapsing all these

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Old Testament stories together. But then also we look at

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what the story means or what it is, you know,

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why it is.

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Speaker 2: An important aspect of the story.

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Speaker 1: What's it pointing to and what does it reveal about

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the very structure of reality the way that most stories do,

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and especially the story of Christ.

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Speaker 2: This is Jonathan Peshel Welcome to the symbolic world.

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Speaker 1: And so the text for the Mask of the Innocance

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is very short. You know. Herod finds out about the

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wise men that are coming to worship this new king.

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And then when the wise men come and find Jesus

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in the home with Mary. When they leave, Joseph has

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a dream. He sees an angel in his dream, says

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an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream.

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Get up, he said, take the child and his mother

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and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you,

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for Herod is going to search for the child to

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kill him. So he got up, took the child and

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his mother during the night, and left for Egypt, where

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he stayed until the death of Herod. And so was

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fulfilled what the Lord had said through the prophet out

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of Egypt, I called my son. When Herod realized that

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he had been outwitted by the Magi, he was furious,

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and he gave orders to kill all the boys in

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Bethlehem and its vicinity who were two years old and under,

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in accordance with the time he had learned from the Magi.

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Speaker 2: So basically, what.

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Speaker 1: You have is the prophecy or the idea that there's

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a new king coming or someone who is going to

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be a threat to the authority of the current king,

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and because of that, the current king decides to slaughter

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all the children of Israel of Bethlehem, while while his

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father and his mother flee to Egypt with the son. Now,

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what's going on in that story. The first thing to

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kind of understand is the very funny way in which

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it plays with the Old Testament stories, you know, the

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way in which it, like I said, collapses the Old

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Testament stories together. Now, the first thing your mind goes

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through to, obviously, is the idea that the pharaoh wants

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to kill the children of Israel, and he kills all

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the children, and out of that killing of the children,

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there is a child that is born that is saved

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and becomes the Savior of Israel, and that of course

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is Moses. So that is the first thought that comes

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to you, Like it makes sense to think of that

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as being the story. And then that child, when he

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grows up, Moses, he leads the children of Israel out

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of Israel into the Promised Land. Now when you think

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about it, you realize that it seems to be the

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opposite of that story. Actually, it seems to be playing

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with the story but doing it in a way that

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makes it almost the opposite of that story.

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Speaker 2: Think about it.

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Speaker 1: In the story of the Exodus, the pharaoh wants to

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kill the children of Israel, and because of that, he

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reveals the Messiah, the Savior, and then that leads Israel

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ultimately out of.

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Speaker 2: Out of the court.

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Speaker 1: And the child doesn't hide, you know, outside the child

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hides in Egypt, but hides with the pharaoh, right, and

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so the pharaoh threatens the child. Now the child is

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saved by being hidden in.

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Speaker 2: The house of the pharaoh.

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Speaker 1: So he is hidden in Egypt, but he is also fleeing,

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like ultimately Israel will flee Egypt. So you can see

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that it's similar, but it's different, and it's very fascinating.

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And you'll see as we accumulate the stories, it will

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become actually very difficult to think about the story of

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Jesus because you'll notice all the images kind of crashing

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in to the story of Jesus. Okay, now, this is

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not the only part that relates to this story, because

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there is another story in which Joseph, the son of Jacob,

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the son of Israel, is sold by his brothers. He's

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threatened by his brothers. His brothers want to kill him,

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and so they put him in a hole, and instead

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of killing him, they end up selling him to Midianite

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or an Edamite, it's not clear in the text, it

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seems to be both a Midianite and Edomite, and that

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way Joseph then ends up through this transaction as a

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slave in Egypt, and ultimately he.

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Speaker 2: Saves Egypt from a drought. All right.

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Speaker 1: So that's the second image, all right, So try to

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keep all of that in your mind. Now in the

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story of Jesus, you can see that it's similar because

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it's the King of Judah, right, It's the King of

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Judah that is going after the Messiah and wants to

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kill him. And because of that, the Messiah, the chosen

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one flees into Egypt and is protected in Egypt. So

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you can see how it's very similar. It's close, but

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it's playing with these elements in a way that is

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bringing them together in another way. Now, there is of

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course a third story that we have to consider when

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we're thinking about the story of Jesus and the mask

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of the Innocence and him going to Egypt, and it is.

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Speaker 2: The story of Jacob and Esau.

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Speaker 1: Now you have to think about the idea that in

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this case the king of it's the King of Judah. Now,

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the King of Judah is a particular character in this

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story because the King of Judah, Herod is not a

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descendant of the line of David. He is an Edomite.

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Now remember what I said about the Edomites. They are

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the ones that sold Joseph into Egypt. But edom is

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Esau actually is another word for Esau.

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Speaker 2: And so you can.

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Speaker 1: See that in the story of Jacob and Esau you

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have a similar situation, which is that Esau wants to

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hurt his brother. Esau wants to kill his brother because

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his brother has the blessing, and he does it. You

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could say it in different ways, but in a way

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it's because he is the one who will replace Esau.

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Speaker 2: Just like in the.

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Speaker 1: Story of Herod, Jesus is the king that will replace Herod,

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at least in his perception and at least in the

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way that the magi seemed to come and say a

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king is born here. And so because of that, you

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could say Jesus is the one who has the blessing

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of heaven.

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Speaker 2: And so Herod is also, you know.

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Speaker 1: Chasing it, wanting to kill him, and because of that

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he goes and flees into Egypt. And so in the

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case of Jacob and Esau, Esau is dam It's edom.

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He is the ancestor of King Herod, and he wants

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to kill his brother because he has the blessing. So

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because of that, his brother has to flee into Lebanon. Right,

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he has to flee to his brother, to the brother

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the brother of his Is that the brother of his

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mother Lebon? I think that's what it is, And so

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he has to flee into Lebanon. Now again there's another story. Sorry,

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there's so many stories in order to understand this. And

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of course the other story is the story of King

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Saul and David.

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Speaker 2: Again.

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Speaker 1: Now King Saul is the king, and now there's this

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new king that is rising up, that is coming, you know,

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up the ranks. And because of that king, Saul wants

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to kill David and forces David to hide, and forces

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David to hide. He hides in several ways and can

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help you kind of understand. He hides among kind of criminals, debtors,

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people who are miscontents in society, and he also hides

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among strangers. He spends some time becoming, you know, a

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secret he becomes a he looks like he's fighting for

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the enemies of Israel. He's not really, but it looks

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like he's fighting for the enemies. He's helping the enemies

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of Israel. Now, this is of course something that Joseph does,

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because Joseph goes to Egypt, saves Egypt, who will become

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the enemy of Israel as well.

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Speaker 2: Okay, all right, so I hope you can kind.

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Speaker 1: Of see the whole thing in your mind, hopefully can

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hold it together. It's very difficult, and so you can

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see that in the story of Jesus, all of those

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things seem to be happening at the same time.

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Speaker 2: That is, Jesus is fleeing.

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Speaker 1: His own people, right, He's fleeing the King of Judah

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in order to go into Egypt to hide, fleeing the

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legitimate king in order to hide with the stranger. But

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the King of Judah is not is his brother, but

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he's not really his brother, or he is his brother

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in the sense of the hostile brother. That is, the

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king is also Edam, and therefore he is fleeing the

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esau in order to hide again with the stranger. Now,

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like I said, in the story of Moses, Moses ends

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up hiding with the Pharaoh and saves the Pharaoh. In

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the case of the story of Jesus, Jesus also ends

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up hiding with Egypt and then returning later. Okay, he's

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leaving the Promised Land in order to go into Egypt.

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He's kind of doing the opposite of what Moses did.

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And so it's like, even when I tried to bring

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all of those stories together, they kind of hurt my

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head because there's so much going on in this little

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in these few little sentences that it's hard to it's

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hard to maintain. But you can see exactly what Jesus

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is doing. Now, what Jesus is doing in the story

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of the Massacre of the Innocence is in some ways

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also a prophecy of what is going to happen later.

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It's also a prophecy of how Jesus will be hated

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by his brother and will be put into the ditch,

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put into the pit by his brothers. Right, he will

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be killed by his brothers in that case, in the

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case of Joseph, they don't go all the way. But

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in the case they make a scapegoat sacrifice. Right, they

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kill a goat to replace Joseph and put blood on

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his garment and then tell their father that it was

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the it's Joseph that died. But in the serve of Jesus,

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Jesus is the scapegoat's sacrifice. And so Jesus now is

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killed by his brother, his brother Judah and part and

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then he will also be sold into Egypt. But he's

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not only killed. It's so interesting, he's not only killed

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by his brother Judah, He's also killed by the stranger,

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the Edomite. He's killed by Esau. But the Esau is

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also Rome, you know, and so in some ways more

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like Egypt, or more like really the stranger, the one

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that has very little to do with, you know, with

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the story of Israel. Although you know, Jews in the

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first century, and many Jews until today call rome Edom,

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you know, and call rome esau. So the whole symbolism,

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there's a kind of deep symbolism about understanding what it

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is that's going to happen. And then it all becomes

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very strange because there is also a larger massacre of

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the innocence which will happen, which is that.

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Speaker 2: Jerusalem will be destroyed, and.

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Speaker 1: The entire sacrificial system, the entire tradition you know that

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led up to Jesus will be destroyed, with the temple

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being destroyed, you know, not to be rebuilt again, at

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least not until now. And the one that saved, you know,

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the Moses figure, you know, the Messiah figure, the David figure,

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the one that flees will then go into Egypt, will

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go into rome will go It's weird because it's like

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he goes into the very people that destroyed the tradition.

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He goes, he goes along with the very people that

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destroyed the temple and that destroyed Jerusalem, and then he

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saves them. So it's almost as if we're going back

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backwards in time, you know. And if you see the

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stories together and you don't necessarily you look at the

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causality kind of going backwards. It seems like that Jesus

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is doing something with that, because you know, in the

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story of Joseph, Joseph saves Egypt, Egypt becomes you know,

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the slavery of the Israelites, and then Moses takes Israel.

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Speaker 2: Out of Egypt into the Promised Land.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know, and then they're the Egyptians trying to

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like kill the Israelites. And then after that Moses takes

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into the Promised Land. So now it's as if it's

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going backwards, moving from the Promised Land, and then the

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Egyptians or the Romans the strangers killing, destroying Israel, and

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then you could go you go backwards. That is, the

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character flees nonetheless into Egypt, becomes friends with the pharaoh,

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becomes friends with their Roman emperor, and then saves Rome. Yeah,

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it's hard to think about all this, but this is

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what Jesus does. When I say that, like, when I

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think about Jesus's story, I just it just shatters my category.

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Speaker 2: It just blows me away. This is what I mean.

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Speaker 1: It's very difficult to hold all of this in your

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mind because it it's just too much.

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Speaker 2: It's really too much.

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Speaker 1: Jesus is just collapsing all of this together, kind of

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bringing it in a way that is that you can

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see it just glows. But it's hard to get to

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the end of it's hard to totally see completely what

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it is that Christ is doing. But nonetheless we can

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still think a little bit about why is this necessary?

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Why why is it necessary? Why is it part of reality?

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Why is there this massacre of the innocence of the innocent.

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Speaker 2: And so.

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Speaker 1: This is something that now we have to kind of

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step out of the moral frame to kind of just

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un understand how some of these things work, you know,

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and understand in some ways what it is that exterior

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pressure does to something. The way to understand it is

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that the Egyptians start to kill the children of Israel. Now,

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what that does, just pragmatically, is it, of course makes

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the children of Israel, for the Israelites, become very precious,

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more precious than what they were before. And then there's

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this great effort right to protect the children of Israel,

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to save them, this great effort that requires more energy,

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you know, more time, more deliberate action in order to

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preserve the children of Israel. And what happens is that

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the external pressure creates a form of purification. It creates

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it's a form of burning off of the chaff. I'm

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not saying that the children are chaff, but what I

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mean is that it kind of reduces things to their

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essential right because if you have external pressure on you,

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you have to decide what's essential and what isn't. You know,

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in a time where everything is relaxed and everything is

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cool and there's nothing, you know, dangerous going on, things

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can kind of get out of control.

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Speaker 2: You know, you can just let things go. You don't have.

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Speaker 1: To be extremely deliberate about everything you do. But when

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all of a sudden there's some kind of external pressure,

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something that is you could say, pushing you towards survival,

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you know, one of the things it does is that

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it makes you have to choose that which is precious,

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and not only choose, but care about. All of a sudden,

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you become deliberate about preserving that which is essential, essential

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to what it depends, obviously essential to the survival of

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whatever you're of, essential to your family identity, to your

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national identity, to your to your story, to your company,

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to to whatever right to their you know, to your

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government agency, like if you cut budgets on people, then

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you know, what they have to do is they have

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to cut the fat, and they kind of have to

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decide what is the most precious and what that can

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do in the proper context. If you survive it, that is,

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if you survive an external attack, if you survive a

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external pressure, something that is trying to eat you and

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devour you and destroy you. What you develop which comes

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out of that is something stronger, something that is refined

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and purified, like gold, something like a seed that can

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then be planted into a new world and grow again

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and have fruit. And so that is why that story

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of the danger or the you know, the threat of

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the brother, the threat of the the important character is important,

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you know, and it happens in all kinds of context.

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Of course I showed you different versions of that in

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the Bible. But in many, many stories, you have the

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idea of the child, the precious child, you know, the

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golden child, the one that is prophesied to be king

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or to become important, is in danger and is threatened

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and is put through the ringer.

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Speaker 2: And what that does. The reason why that they're in

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the story, at.

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Speaker 1: Least one of the reasons is in order to show

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that if think about it this way, like if the

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child survives, or if the character survives, or if this survives,

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it is a sign that it is the indestructible thing,

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that it has something in it that is worthy of attention,

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worthy of care, and worthy of being brought into the future.

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And so we can understand this story, the story of

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this external pressure which comes on P P. And I

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don't want to I want to be careful. I don't

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want to diminish how serious it is. I'm not trying

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to to to make it trivial. It is not trivial.

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It is actually it could be. It is extremely dramatic,

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dramatic like the story here, and in some ways, for example,

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like dramatic, like the story of the Holocaust. You know

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this idea that in the twentieth century, you know, as

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the Jewish nation, for example, in the twentieth century went

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through horrible persecution and horrible threat out of that they

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came out much stronger and much more concentrated. And like

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I said, I don't want to make it trivial. I'm

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not saying that we should wish this on anyone.

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Speaker 2: That's not the point. But it is simply a structure

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of reality.

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Speaker 1: And that is why it happens in the case of

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the Israelites before they are going to flee Egypt. This

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type of pressure happened on Jacob from his brother Esau,

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it happens on David the from King Saul, and ultimately

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it happens on.

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Speaker 2: Christ in the story of Christ.

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Speaker 1: And you know, and also we believe in some ways

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that it also happened in a bigger way, in a

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meta way. That is, because of the fact that Jerusalem

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was destroyed in the first century. What came out of that,

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the seed that emerged from that was so powerful that

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it could take over and save even those that destroyed it,

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even those that destroyed Jerusalem. And so that is the

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power of the story of the Mask of the Innocence.

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Hopefully this is clear. Hopefully also the examples I gave

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you in the real world are clear enough, you know,

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to help you understand how that works and why it

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is a motif that appears in so many stories because

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of what the idea that when something goes through fire

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and survives it, it is the essence of that which

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would threatened that has to survive. It is that which

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we cap which is the most important, you know. Think

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about it like, you know, think about it like there's

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a fire in your house and you only have time,

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and you can pick which one. But you only have

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time to take one picture of your family out of

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the house. And so you will choose a picture that

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will gather together all the memories and things that you

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care about and all the aspects of your family that

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you remember the most vividly. And that is what you

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will take out of the house. You won't take some random,

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out of focused picture, you know, in which some of

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the members of the family are missing, or you know,

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it's just a joke or whatever. You'll take, you know,

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the thing that is the most symbolic in the proper

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sense of what it is that you're trying to remember

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and to bring with you, you know.

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Speaker 2: And so this is of.

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Speaker 1: Course the image, for example, of Eneas who takes his

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father out of Troy. Anyways, there are plenty, plenty of examples.

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You guys can think of them on your own. Try

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to find examples. Actually be fun to see that in

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the common section. Try to find examples of stories like

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that where this process of pressure and of the survival

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of the seed, the survival of the precious Thing through

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the fire and through the challenge, and so I appreciate

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your attention. You know, Christmas is coming very soon, and

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if you're interested, there are many Christmas videos on my channel.

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And I find it difficult to talk about things twice,

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and so go on the channel, find the Christmas video list,

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and then there are plenty of videos talk about all

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the aspects of Christmas, from the Christmas Tree you know,

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to Santa, to Rudolph, to like everything you know, to

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the Nativity Icon. I think I pretty much talked about

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every single thing that is related to Christmas. Maybe the

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only thing left was this Master of the Innocent story,

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which I am dealing with now. And so thanks everybody

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for attention. Do not forget to sign up for the

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Symbolic World and to join our community, and I'll talk

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to you very soon.

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Speaker 2: Bye bye,