Speaker 1: Good morning. How are you doing today.
Speaker 2: I'm doing great. How are you?
Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic. I knew when we talked last year that
we would be doing this again because there because there's
so much betrayal in the world and your connection to
getting the story and basically to me healing people who
have been betrayed, because if you've been betrayed and you
tune into this this podcast, you're going to learn new things.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I mean, so much about this show is about betrayal, devastation, deception,
but it's also about resilience and strength, and so yeah,
there's no shortage of betrayal, and there's so much diversity
in stories in the Betrayal Weekly series, and so I
think audiences will be fascinated and learn a lot.
Speaker 1: You see so much in a bigger way when it
comes to these stories because so many people they would
walk away from the scene. I'm not getting into that mess.
Uh uh, that's not for me. But you you kind
of just go, I'm going to face the fire. I'm
going in there.
Speaker 2: Yep.
Speaker 3: It's heavy. People have been through really traumatic stuff. But
you know that, Yeah, those stories make me lean in
that human experience, that curiosity makes me want to dig
in for sure.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: How do you know when you're getting a story? In
other words, it's like there's got to be something that
goes off inside your head in heart that says, okay,
now we're getting somewhere.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 3: I mean, we say this all the time as a team.
The betrayal and the deception is one thing, but I
think what makes the at the heart of the show
is the love story. So whether it's you know, a
husband that betrays a wife, a wife that betrays a husband,
or maybe it's a best friend that has betrayed their
other best rate you know, or it's a business partner,
it's really in the love story. And it's not just
about a marriage. It could be about a business that
you've created with a friend or know. It's really really
in that those stakes because everyone can relate to loving something,
loving someone, having a dream that sweat equity that just
ends up in destruction. So you don't understand the fallout
unless you really understand what it meant for somebody.
Speaker 2: So it's really if we can understand.
Speaker 3: The love story, if that is strong enough, then we're like, okay,
this this this has got it, this is this is
this is a story.
Speaker 1: We'll tell Wow, you just triggered me in such a
weird way, in the way that uh, you know, people
always go, well, how come you don't collaborate with people,
why don't you do this? Well, it's exactly what you
just explained betrayal because you know, I mean, once you've
seen it and experienced it, you don't trust anymore. You've
got that PTSD mm hmm.
Speaker 2: It is very hard to trust again.
Speaker 3: And it's it's hard, it's hard to like regulate trust
where you're working on these shows.
Speaker 2: But it's.
Speaker 3: You know, we interviewed this psychologist on the limited run
series last season in season four, and it's like, trust
is the backbone of society. It's what makes us function.
We all get up every day and we just make
You have to trust that people are going to stop
at red lights, people are going to stop at stop signs,
like you get in the car and you just have
to trust that people are going to do their job
on the road. That's a basic example. So trust is
so foundational to not just as as human beings, but
also keeping the society working. And so we have to
trust and that's what makes us human. But to overcome
those complicated feelings of trust when they've been broken so devastatingly.
It's it's a journey and it takes a lot of
strength and resilience to be able to trust again. You know.
To to choose not to trust again is you know,
is one thing. But to decide to trust again and
invest in relationships and have that vulnerability.
Speaker 2: I mean, that's what That's what strength is. That's where
that's incredible.
Speaker 1: Yeah to me, that challenge, that rush, you know, Okay,
we can make this work. Come on, let's just dig
in and make it happen. Yeah. When you think you
know somebody and they change, how is it that you
deal with people? And I'm wondering if you've ever been
given this is that when somebody says, well, you knew
what I was when you pick me up. Have you
run into something like that?
Speaker 2: Say more arrow, say more about that question.
Speaker 1: In other words, you know people who have betrayaled, and
you know because so many times in a relationship, business
relationship or a personal relationship, we knew what they were
when we met them. We're either going to try to
fix them or we're just gonna say, you know what,
that was part of their life. I forgive them. Now,
let's work together here, and all of a sudden, the
old habits are back. You knew what I was when
you picked me up.
Speaker 3: That's so interesting, that's I know exactly what you mean
because I've encountered I've encountered that person.
Speaker 2: I've encountered that scenario.
Speaker 3: A lot of this or reason we choose to tell
on betrayal are mostly focused on the reality that there
really are no red flags, because I think that in
a lot of ways, we have a ton of keyboard.
Speaker 2: Warriors of like how did they not see this?
Speaker 3: Or how did they not see that? And the reality is,
to back to the point that I was making about trust,
is that when we're talking about people that you love,
like whether your husband or your best friend or your parents,
for example, you don't assume that they're doing.
Speaker 2: Something nefarious.
Speaker 3: You don't assume that they're deceiving you.
Speaker 2: You know, to have that.
Speaker 3: Thought would be against your basic understanding of your relationships.
So it's like there's so many mechanisms in terms of
just like survival instincts and.
Speaker 2: Just the way that you like.
Speaker 3: We all usually default to truth, right like we default
good and so we really try to focus on the
show of like of scenarios where people really didn't see
this coming, right, But I know exactly the scenario that
you mean, because there are people that you know, when
they show you who you are, believe them, right yep.
But you know our show is really dedicated to the
scenarios where there are no red flags, because it truly
does happen like that.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: But when that flag goes up, though, everything changes, and
I mean that, I mean that can change an entire city block.
Speaker 3: Absolutely again, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: My father I always thought, you know, was oh he's
just a truck driver, he's never home until he transitioned
and I found out there were three families at one time.
And it's like, so maybe that's my attraction to betrayal,
is that you know it runs so deep in my soul.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that must have been really really hard.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because well, I mean trying to build that relationship
up with your with your brothers and sisters that you
didn't know you had. And that's why I would be
I wouldn't know how to do that that little test
that they give you to find out what your ancestry is,
because I'd be afraid of the answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, of course.
Speaker 3: And it's that question of or it's that that what
you just said, you believed that he was just going
to work, yep, right, and that's and that's it. And
to know that it was something else really unlocks the
whole endless possibilities of what that person's capable of.
Speaker 2: And so I'm so sorry you had to go through that.
Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Andrea Gunning coming
up next the name of a podcast Betrayal. We're back
with Andrea Gunning. Well, let's talk about Libby's husband. I mean,
come on this right here is a story in itself,
and that's one that people are going to be talking
about when they go to work. They're going to say,
did you hear that podcast? You need to go in
there and make the investment to listen to this one
about Libby.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Liby he was married to her husband
for a really long time.
Speaker 2: I mean, he was a successful businessman and he.
Speaker 3: Was committing mortgage fraud and he was using her name
to sign fake documents. It's a very complicated scheme, but
at the end of the day, he bankrupted the family.
He's financially devastated her. And it wasn't until she was
watching a true crime show about someone who had been
you know, financially devastated and made her realize, oh wait,
I don't know anything about our own financials, right, Like
I haven't I handle the home. I make sure my
daughter goes to school, my husband handles the money. You
make sure that we have like our lifestyle running, but
I don't know any details about it. And she watched
the show and she thought, you know, I got to
start asking questions about our financial situation. And it wasn't
until she started asking and pressing did things start to unravel.
And so you know, we talk about like a full
circle moment because now she's on this podcast and she's
talking about how true crime helped her. You know, she
she could have never asked questions. I mean, at that point,
the FBI was already onto him, but and he was
being investigated. But like you know, she got curious and
it was true a true crime show that made her
start asking those questions.
Speaker 2: Wow.
Speaker 1: See, that's every bit the reason why my wife knows
all of my passwords and I leave out my daily
writing because I if she feels that there's something wrong
go read it in my writing. If it's in that writing,
then that's what's really going on in my life.
Speaker 3: It's transparency is a great antidote to like, you know,
and I and I joke, I mean, I you know,
I got engaged this year and my fiance is you know,
God bless him, because.
Speaker 2: Sometimes I do bring work home with me. It's just
the reality.
Speaker 1: You know, you brought up the FBI. Has the law
ever gotten in your way of getting a story?
Speaker 2: No, not for Betrayal.
Speaker 3: Not for Betrayal surprisingly, and you know, the Betrayal Weekly
is first person accounts where we're just really living in
someone retelling us like bet by beat what happened to them?
And so the Betrayal Limited Run, which is, you know,
we put out one season basically a year where it's
one person story told over eight to ten episodes, and
that features you know, a ton of interviews from a
number of different subjects, people and their family, you know,
law enforcement. Sometimes it can get tricky for the narrative
limited run, but usually you know, I haven't really had
any issues on this show, in particular with law enforcement.
Speaker 1: I want listeners to know that you want them to
you want them to write to you Betrayal pod at
gmail dot com. I love that open door policy.
Speaker 2: It's a great community.
Speaker 3: I mean we started it when the show first came
out in season one of the limited run, and it
just became this.
Speaker 2: I think some people are so embarrassed.
Speaker 3: And I feel ashamed about what happened to them, and
they don't need to be and then they can just
write to this email and feel safe that they feel heard.
And it's kind of incredible, this little email community we've built.
Speaker 1: What in your heart is the most unthinkable betrayal, because
I mean, you're seeing it all and I often wonder
are you getting numb to any of this?
Speaker 2: No, not numbed.
Speaker 3: I was on an interview yesterday that was really devastating
and I had to go and take a walk afterwards,
and it was really really affecting me. I can't really
do you know what I think is the worst, because
I don't like comparing. But you know, there are some
that will hit me for very specific personal reasons. I
think Brooke in episode one of season two, it's such
a visceral emotional experience and that was and she's such
a great storyteller, she was betrayed by her boyfriend who
was a very respected doctor, and so it's such a
physical betrayal. So I think that one was really really devastating.
Speaker 1: You know, you were talking about Libby and her connection
to true crime, and so one of the things that
I've really tried to put a lot of research in
the number of armchaired detectives that are that are really
changing things now where where the police are have turned
their back, those armchaired detectives are showing up.
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, yeah we are. I'm
working on another story for iHeart. I won't give the details,
but like the the you know, the TikTok sleuths, the
community has really been on this project. I'm working on
really holding this person to account. And it's so interesting
because I think that people don't like injustice there you know,
there's fairness and then there's unfairness. And I think it's
you know, when you see those people, those armchaired detectives,
it's really about you know, justice and fairness. And if
you're like this is unfair, I'm gonna stick up and
I'm gonna, you know.
Speaker 2: Rally for what's right.
Speaker 3: And I think that that's why that happens I think
that's why you see these individuals coming together.
Speaker 1: I'm heavily inspired by the fact that you guys like
to have a round table conversation. I call that the
fish bowl and the reason why And yeah, do you
guys you have a rule that says, all right, we're
all gonna go and we're gonna have this round table conversation,
but you better bring something. We just you know, make
the investment. If it sucks or not, it doesn't matter,
just bring something.
Speaker 2: Not really.
Speaker 3: No, Yeah, but that's the great idea. I think that's
I'm gonna take that away with me.
Speaker 1: Well, because it's all based on Julia Cameron's The Artist
Way at Work, where she said she describes this gigantic
table where there's nine people and there's always two or
three that are quiet. They say nothing, and it's like
where But yet later on they'll come up with one
of the most brilliant ideas is right.
Speaker 3: Right, Well, you taught me something today and I always
cherish shocking to you, but I'm walking away with this idea,
so thank you.
Speaker 1: So now, what are you learning from all of this,
because I mean, I'm shocked that you're not out there
doing speeches and talking with different groups traveling across the nation.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean, we're producing a weekly series that's on every week,
you know, for almost the entire year, in addition doing
another I'm producing like five shows right now, so it's
really hard. It's really hard to find that time. But
you know, I think I'm so passionate about season five,
which comes out in January, and I'm really focusing my
energy on making sure I handle that story with as
much care. It's about a woman who is betrayed by
her husband. There was intimate partner violence there, and so
I I'm really trying to focus my energy on making
that the best, doing my best on that.
Speaker 1: I'm so inspired by the fact that you're that you're
investing so much into podcasting because you realize that it's
a connection. But what how do you handle those that
come up to you and say, well, I've always wanted
to do a podcast. I'll get around to it one day,
and you just go, don't even start. Don't even start.
You've got to You've got to invest everything into it,
or don't even start.
Speaker 2: I think people, I mean, I was that person, no way, no,
I was.
Speaker 3: I was that person years ago that was like you know,
I'm just I think we should start.
Speaker 2: A podcast, and.
Speaker 3: My colleague Ben and I start did confronting OJ Simpson.
Speaker 2: But you know, you kind of do have to have.
Speaker 3: A little bit of blissful ignorance and the just like
that energy to prevail and like this has to work,
This has to work, this is going to happen for me,
and just like that blind faith that has to exists
because otherwise you'll get in your own way.
Speaker 2: But also, you know, it's a lot of work.
Speaker 3: I do a lot of meetings with like women rte
to me and say hey, I just want some advice
on podcasting in the industry.
Speaker 2: I'll take those meetings. And I just I think that
people don't.
Speaker 3: Understand the amount of work that goes into it. I mean,
this is a very intense job. We I have an
incredible team behind me that put these shows together, and
like we're all working and firing on all cylinders all
day all the time.
Speaker 2: Like you know, So, I mean it's intense job.
Speaker 3: And you know it's a productions You're not slapping something together.
It's it's a lot of work. It's in intense work
and you have to give it your all.
Speaker 1: Wow, you have got to come back to this show
anytime in the future.
Speaker 2: Thank you for I always love coming on your so
so thank you.
Speaker 1: Well, you've been brilliant today.
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you too. Thank you.