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Speaker 1: Good morning. How are you doing today.

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Speaker 2: I'm doing great. How are you?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely fantastic. I knew when we talked last year that

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we would be doing this again because there because there's

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so much betrayal in the world and your connection to

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getting the story and basically to me healing people who

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have been betrayed, because if you've been betrayed and you

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tune into this this podcast, you're going to learn new things.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 3: I mean, so much about this show is about betrayal, devastation, deception,

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but it's also about resilience and strength, and so yeah,

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there's no shortage of betrayal, and there's so much diversity

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in stories in the Betrayal Weekly series, and so I

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think audiences will be fascinated and learn a lot.

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Speaker 1: You see so much in a bigger way when it

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comes to these stories because so many people they would

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walk away from the scene. I'm not getting into that mess.

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Uh uh, that's not for me. But you you kind

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of just go, I'm going to face the fire. I'm

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going in there.

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Speaker 2: Yep.

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Speaker 3: It's heavy. People have been through really traumatic stuff. But

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you know that, Yeah, those stories make me lean in

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that human experience, that curiosity makes me want to dig

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in for sure.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: How do you know when you're getting a story? In

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other words, it's like there's got to be something that

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goes off inside your head in heart that says, okay,

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now we're getting somewhere.

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Speaker 2: I think.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we say this all the time as a team.

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The betrayal and the deception is one thing, but I

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think what makes the at the heart of the show

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is the love story. So whether it's you know, a

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husband that betrays a wife, a wife that betrays a husband,

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or maybe it's a best friend that has betrayed their

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other best rate you know, or it's a business partner,

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it's really in the love story. And it's not just

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about a marriage. It could be about a business that

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you've created with a friend or know. It's really really

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in that those stakes because everyone can relate to loving something,

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loving someone, having a dream that sweat equity that just

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ends up in destruction. So you don't understand the fallout

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unless you really understand what it meant for somebody.

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Speaker 2: So it's really if we can understand.

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Speaker 3: The love story, if that is strong enough, then we're like, okay,

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this this this has got it, this is this is

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this is a story.

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Speaker 1: We'll tell Wow, you just triggered me in such a

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weird way, in the way that uh, you know, people

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always go, well, how come you don't collaborate with people,

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why don't you do this? Well, it's exactly what you

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just explained betrayal because you know, I mean, once you've

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seen it and experienced it, you don't trust anymore. You've

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got that PTSD mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: It is very hard to trust again.

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Speaker 3: And it's it's hard, it's hard to like regulate trust

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where you're working on these shows.

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Speaker 2: But it's.

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Speaker 3: You know, we interviewed this psychologist on the limited run

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series last season in season four, and it's like, trust

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is the backbone of society. It's what makes us function.

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We all get up every day and we just make

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You have to trust that people are going to stop

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at red lights, people are going to stop at stop signs,

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like you get in the car and you just have

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to trust that people are going to do their job

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on the road. That's a basic example. So trust is

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so foundational to not just as as human beings, but

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also keeping the society working. And so we have to

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trust and that's what makes us human. But to overcome

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those complicated feelings of trust when they've been broken so devastatingly.

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It's it's a journey and it takes a lot of

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strength and resilience to be able to trust again. You know.

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To to choose not to trust again is you know,

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is one thing. But to decide to trust again and

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invest in relationships and have that vulnerability.

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Speaker 2: I mean, that's what That's what strength is. That's where

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that's incredible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah to me, that challenge, that rush, you know, Okay,

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we can make this work. Come on, let's just dig

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in and make it happen. Yeah. When you think you

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know somebody and they change, how is it that you

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deal with people? And I'm wondering if you've ever been

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given this is that when somebody says, well, you knew

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what I was when you pick me up. Have you

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run into something like that?

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Speaker 2: Say more arrow, say more about that question.

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Speaker 1: In other words, you know people who have betrayaled, and

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you know because so many times in a relationship, business

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relationship or a personal relationship, we knew what they were

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when we met them. We're either going to try to

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fix them or we're just gonna say, you know what,

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that was part of their life. I forgive them. Now,

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let's work together here, and all of a sudden, the

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old habits are back. You knew what I was when

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you picked me up.

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Speaker 3: That's so interesting, that's I know exactly what you mean

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because I've encountered I've encountered that person.

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Speaker 2: I've encountered that scenario.

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Speaker 3: A lot of this or reason we choose to tell

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on betrayal are mostly focused on the reality that there

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really are no red flags, because I think that in

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a lot of ways, we have a ton of keyboard.

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Speaker 2: Warriors of like how did they not see this?

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Speaker 3: Or how did they not see that? And the reality is,

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to back to the point that I was making about trust,

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is that when we're talking about people that you love,

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like whether your husband or your best friend or your parents,

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for example, you don't assume that they're doing.

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Speaker 2: Something nefarious.

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Speaker 3: You don't assume that they're deceiving you.

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Speaker 2: You know, to have that.

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Speaker 3: Thought would be against your basic understanding of your relationships.

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So it's like there's so many mechanisms in terms of

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just like survival instincts and.

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Speaker 2: Just the way that you like.

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Speaker 3: We all usually default to truth, right like we default

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good and so we really try to focus on the

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show of like of scenarios where people really didn't see

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this coming, right, But I know exactly the scenario that

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you mean, because there are people that you know, when

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they show you who you are, believe them, right yep.

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But you know our show is really dedicated to the

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scenarios where there are no red flags, because it truly

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does happen like that.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: But when that flag goes up, though, everything changes, and

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I mean that, I mean that can change an entire city block.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely again, when someone shows you who they are, believe them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My father I always thought, you know, was oh he's

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just a truck driver, he's never home until he transitioned

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and I found out there were three families at one time.

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And it's like, so maybe that's my attraction to betrayal,

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is that you know it runs so deep in my soul.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that must have been really really hard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because well, I mean trying to build that relationship

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up with your with your brothers and sisters that you

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didn't know you had. And that's why I would be

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I wouldn't know how to do that that little test

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that they give you to find out what your ancestry is,

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because I'd be afraid of the answer.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, of course.

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Speaker 3: And it's that question of or it's that that what

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you just said, you believed that he was just going

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to work, yep, right, and that's and that's it. And

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to know that it was something else really unlocks the

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whole endless possibilities of what that person's capable of.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm so sorry you had to go through that.

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Speaker 1: Please do not move. There's more with Andrea Gunning coming

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up next the name of a podcast Betrayal. We're back

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with Andrea Gunning. Well, let's talk about Libby's husband. I mean,

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come on this right here is a story in itself,

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and that's one that people are going to be talking

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about when they go to work. They're going to say,

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did you hear that podcast? You need to go in

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there and make the investment to listen to this one

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about Libby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean Liby he was married to her husband

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for a really long time.

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Speaker 2: I mean, he was a successful businessman and he.

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Speaker 3: Was committing mortgage fraud and he was using her name

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to sign fake documents. It's a very complicated scheme, but

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at the end of the day, he bankrupted the family.

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He's financially devastated her. And it wasn't until she was

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watching a true crime show about someone who had been

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you know, financially devastated and made her realize, oh wait,

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I don't know anything about our own financials, right, Like

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I haven't I handle the home. I make sure my

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daughter goes to school, my husband handles the money. You

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make sure that we have like our lifestyle running, but

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I don't know any details about it. And she watched

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the show and she thought, you know, I got to

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start asking questions about our financial situation. And it wasn't

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until she started asking and pressing did things start to unravel.

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And so you know, we talk about like a full

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circle moment because now she's on this podcast and she's

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talking about how true crime helped her. You know, she

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she could have never asked questions. I mean, at that point,

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the FBI was already onto him, but and he was

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being investigated. But like you know, she got curious and

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it was true a true crime show that made her

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start asking those questions.

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Speaker 2: Wow.

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Speaker 1: See, that's every bit the reason why my wife knows

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all of my passwords and I leave out my daily

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writing because I if she feels that there's something wrong

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go read it in my writing. If it's in that writing,

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then that's what's really going on in my life.

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Speaker 3: It's transparency is a great antidote to like, you know,

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and I and I joke, I mean, I you know,

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I got engaged this year and my fiance is you know,

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God bless him, because.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes I do bring work home with me. It's just

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the reality.

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Speaker 1: You know, you brought up the FBI. Has the law

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ever gotten in your way of getting a story?

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Speaker 2: No, not for Betrayal.

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Speaker 3: Not for Betrayal surprisingly, and you know, the Betrayal Weekly

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is first person accounts where we're just really living in

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someone retelling us like bet by beat what happened to them?

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And so the Betrayal Limited Run, which is, you know,

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we put out one season basically a year where it's

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one person story told over eight to ten episodes, and

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that features you know, a ton of interviews from a

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number of different subjects, people and their family, you know,

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law enforcement. Sometimes it can get tricky for the narrative

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limited run, but usually you know, I haven't really had

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any issues on this show, in particular with law enforcement.

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Speaker 1: I want listeners to know that you want them to

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you want them to write to you Betrayal pod at

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gmail dot com. I love that open door policy.

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Speaker 2: It's a great community.

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Speaker 3: I mean we started it when the show first came

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out in season one of the limited run, and it

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just became this.

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Speaker 2: I think some people are so embarrassed.

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Speaker 3: And I feel ashamed about what happened to them, and

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they don't need to be and then they can just

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write to this email and feel safe that they feel heard.

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And it's kind of incredible, this little email community we've built.

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Speaker 1: What in your heart is the most unthinkable betrayal, because

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I mean, you're seeing it all and I often wonder

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are you getting numb to any of this?

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Speaker 2: No, not numbed.

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Speaker 3: I was on an interview yesterday that was really devastating

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and I had to go and take a walk afterwards,

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and it was really really affecting me. I can't really

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do you know what I think is the worst, because

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I don't like comparing. But you know, there are some

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that will hit me for very specific personal reasons. I

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think Brooke in episode one of season two, it's such

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a visceral emotional experience and that was and she's such

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a great storyteller, she was betrayed by her boyfriend who

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was a very respected doctor, and so it's such a

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physical betrayal. So I think that one was really really devastating.

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Speaker 1: You know, you were talking about Libby and her connection

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to true crime, and so one of the things that

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I've really tried to put a lot of research in

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the number of armchaired detectives that are that are really

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changing things now where where the police are have turned

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their back, those armchaired detectives are showing up.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, Oh my gosh, yeah we are. I'm

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working on another story for iHeart. I won't give the details,

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but like the the you know, the TikTok sleuths, the

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community has really been on this project. I'm working on

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really holding this person to account. And it's so interesting

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because I think that people don't like injustice there you know,

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there's fairness and then there's unfairness. And I think it's

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you know, when you see those people, those armchaired detectives,

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it's really about you know, justice and fairness. And if

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you're like this is unfair, I'm gonna stick up and

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I'm gonna, you know.

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Speaker 2: Rally for what's right.

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Speaker 3: And I think that that's why that happens I think

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that's why you see these individuals coming together.

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Speaker 1: I'm heavily inspired by the fact that you guys like

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to have a round table conversation. I call that the

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fish bowl and the reason why And yeah, do you

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guys you have a rule that says, all right, we're

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all gonna go and we're gonna have this round table conversation,

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but you better bring something. We just you know, make

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the investment. If it sucks or not, it doesn't matter,

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just bring something.

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Speaker 2: Not really.

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Speaker 3: No, Yeah, but that's the great idea. I think that's

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I'm gonna take that away with me.

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Speaker 1: Well, because it's all based on Julia Cameron's The Artist

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Way at Work, where she said she describes this gigantic

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table where there's nine people and there's always two or

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three that are quiet. They say nothing, and it's like

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where But yet later on they'll come up with one

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of the most brilliant ideas is right.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, you taught me something today and I always

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cherish shocking to you, but I'm walking away with this idea,

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so thank you.

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Speaker 1: So now, what are you learning from all of this,

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because I mean, I'm shocked that you're not out there

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doing speeches and talking with different groups traveling across the nation.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we're producing a weekly series that's on every week,

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you know, for almost the entire year, in addition doing

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another I'm producing like five shows right now, so it's

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really hard. It's really hard to find that time. But

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you know, I think I'm so passionate about season five,

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which comes out in January, and I'm really focusing my

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energy on making sure I handle that story with as

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much care. It's about a woman who is betrayed by

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her husband. There was intimate partner violence there, and so

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I I'm really trying to focus my energy on making

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that the best, doing my best on that.

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Speaker 1: I'm so inspired by the fact that you're that you're

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investing so much into podcasting because you realize that it's

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a connection. But what how do you handle those that

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come up to you and say, well, I've always wanted

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to do a podcast. I'll get around to it one day,

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and you just go, don't even start. Don't even start.

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You've got to You've got to invest everything into it,

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or don't even start.

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Speaker 2: I think people, I mean, I was that person, no way, no,

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I was.

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Speaker 3: I was that person years ago that was like you know,

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I'm just I think we should start.

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Speaker 2: A podcast, and.

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Speaker 3: My colleague Ben and I start did confronting OJ Simpson.

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Speaker 2: But you know, you kind of do have to have.

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Speaker 3: A little bit of blissful ignorance and the just like

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that energy to prevail and like this has to work,

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This has to work, this is going to happen for me,

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and just like that blind faith that has to exists

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because otherwise you'll get in your own way.

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Speaker 2: But also, you know, it's a lot of work.

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Speaker 3: I do a lot of meetings with like women rte

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to me and say hey, I just want some advice

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on podcasting in the industry.

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Speaker 2: I'll take those meetings. And I just I think that

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people don't.

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Speaker 3: Understand the amount of work that goes into it. I mean,

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this is a very intense job. We I have an

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incredible team behind me that put these shows together, and

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like we're all working and firing on all cylinders all

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day all the time.

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Speaker 2: Like you know, So, I mean it's intense job.

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Speaker 3: And you know it's a productions You're not slapping something together.

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It's it's a lot of work. It's in intense work

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and you have to give it your all.

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Speaker 1: Wow, you have got to come back to this show

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anytime in the future.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for I always love coming on your so

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so thank you.

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Speaker 1: Well, you've been brilliant today.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay, you too. Thank you.