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Speaker 1: Do you ever think about how some of the things

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we see in like sci fi movies ended becoming like

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real life. Yeah, you know, I mean from self driving cars,

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which you know, back in the day felt like something

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out of the Jetsons, to the Internet, right, like this

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global network that connects billions of people like instantly.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: And it's crazy to think that a lot of these

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huge leafs in technology they didn't start in like some

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Silicon Valley garage. No, you know, they actually started within

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a super low key but incredibly powerful organization. Yeah, and

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it was born out of like this very real Cold

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War era anxiety.

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Speaker 2: I mean that tracks right.

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Speaker 1: So we're talking about DARPA today.

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Speaker 2: That's a that's a fun one, right, the.

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Speaker 1: Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're joining us today for a deep dive

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into DARPA.

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Speaker 1: We're going to we're going to trace its origins. Yeah,

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he was born from a moment of like perceived technological vulnerability,

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and then we're going to explore its absolute pivotal role

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in creating technologies that like we use every day. It's ubiquitous, right, right,

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I mean, you can't really even function in modern society

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without interacting with something that DARPA had a hand in

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at some point. Absolutely, and and we'll be taking a

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look at some of its let's just say, more ambitious

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and thought provoking projects.

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Speaker 2: Yes, ambitious is a word.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean some of this stuff is straight out

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of like a dystopian novel. The material that you give

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me to prep with was it definitely points to a

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very fascinating, a multifaceted legacy, right, Like, yeah, they've done

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a lot of good, but then some things that you know,

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maybe we should dig into a little deeper.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure, we're going to unpack all of that.

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Speaker 2: For you today.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, connect the dots, connect the dots, and ultimately reveal

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the profound ways that DARPA has shaped the world, absolutely

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in ways that most people have probably never even considered. Yeah,

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so let's let's set the scene late nineteen fifties, right,

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Cold War Okay, Union was just knocking it out of

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the park when it came to the space race. Yeah,

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it felt like they were hitting home run after home run. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: They had Spotneck orbiting the Earth, first first.

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Speaker 1: Artificial satellite to orbit the Earth.

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Speaker 3: Then they sent Laika the Dog or like you know,

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venturing out into the unknown. Yuri Gagarin the first human in.

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Speaker 1: Space, Valentine and Trishkova first woman exactly, and.

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Speaker 3: You know, kind of rub it in our faces a

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little bit, even beat us to the punch with the

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first spacecraft to loop around the moons on five.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. And meanwhile, you know, you got the American space

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program over here. Yeah, you know, it feels like they're

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constantly trying to play catchup, always, always like one step behind.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, tripping over their feet a lot.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, stumbling. So you know what's interesting to consider is

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like the national anxiety that's created at the time. Oh yeah,

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I mean for the average American these Soviet successes, they

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weren't just like a scientific achievement, right, This was seen

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as a direct threat.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely. It was a very very visceral fear.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It was a technological gap that you know, could

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potentially have some very real world military implications.

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Speaker 3: And that was I mean, that was the core of it, right, right.

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It was the Cold War, so everything was about you know,

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potential conflict and the military implications of things, right. Right,

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So when when the Soviets are launching things into space,

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especially you know, living things into space and having them survive,

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the immediate thought was well, what's the military application.

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Speaker 1: Of this, and what does it mean if they can

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get there first and we can't, Right, what if they

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put weapons up there?

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Speaker 3: I mean, think about the average person. Imagine the worry. Right,

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Soviets not only reached space first, but they weaponize it.

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That that fear, I mean, that was a huge motivator,

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I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a very real fear. It's

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interesting to think about it now in hindsight, but at

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the time it was a very present threat.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.

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Speaker 3: So you know, you have President Eisenhower, right, and he

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felt this pressure. I mean, I'm sure he was getting

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it from all sides.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, he understand good.

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Speaker 3: That something needed to be done and it needed to

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be done quickly. And so what does he do? Incredibly,

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like just three months after the launch of Sputnik two,

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he creates the Advanced Research Projects Agency or ARPA.

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Speaker 1: And we all know where that went.

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Speaker 2: Of course, as.

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Speaker 3: You know, that later becomes DARPA in nineteen seventy two.

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With the addition of that, you know, pretty significant d

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for defense. But that initial mandate of URPA is so important.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's key to understanding the whole history and the impact.

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Absolutely because They weren't about incremental improvements. They were tasked

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with developing the most technologically advanced military systems.

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Speaker 2: Think about that.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was a skunk works. It was like,

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you know, throw out all the conventional thinking. Let's just

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come up with the craziest stuff that we can.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, blue sky thinking.

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Speaker 1: You know, no idea is too crazy, wild, let's just

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put it all out there on the table and see

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what sticks.

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Speaker 3: Right. And I think that's where the dual nature that

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we're going to talk about a lot today comes from.

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Speaker 1: Sword and shields. Sword and shields if they called it right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, some of the sources that you sent me and

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mentioned that, you know, the goal was to be both

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a sword and a shield, you know, focus on the

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offensive capabilities but also the defensive capabilities.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But what was striking was the mindset that.

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Speaker 1: No project was was too.

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Speaker 3: Expensive, too expensive, and even more more controversially, it seemed

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like no program was off the table.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, if it.

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Speaker 3: Was deemed essential for national security morality.

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Speaker 1: It was secondary, which I think brings us to something

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that you probably are holding in your hand right now, yeah,

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probably or very close by listeners. Yeah, got it, your smartphone. Yeah,

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it's it's it's impossible to overstate how deeply darp as

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early work is embedded in the technology that makes that

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device so indispensable to your life. Absolutely, you can't live.

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Speaker 2: Without that thing pretty much. Yeah, I mean most people

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feel that way these days.

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Speaker 1: Right, and take navigation Okay, So you know, not that

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long ago, if you were driving in a new city

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and you took a wrong turn, what would you do?

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Speaker 2: Ask for directions?

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Speaker 1: Right? Or you'd be pulling over unfolding a cumbersome Thomas

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guide remember those, oh.

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Speaker 2: The massive paper outlases.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that never folded back correctly.

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Speaker 1: You could never get it back the way it was

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supposed to be.

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Speaker 2: It was impossible.

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Speaker 1: We had to like increase it in new spots to

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get it to fit back in the glove compartment.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Or or desperately searching for a gas station or some

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local business hoping somebody could give you directions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, hoping that the person you asked actually knew the way.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, It wasn't having a bad.

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Speaker 3: Day, yeah, not in a rush, right, didn't just want

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to send you on a wild goose chase.

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Speaker 1: Right. So what's amazing to me is how GPS has

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now become like this invisible utility. It's true that we

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take completely for granted.

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Speaker 2: We just expect it to work.

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Speaker 1: It just works. Yeah, it guides you with incredible precision.

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Speaker 3: And that technology, again was a result of DARPA's early

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investments in satellite based navigation, initially conceived for military purposes.

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Speaker 1: Right, So initially the idea was to guide missiles.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, guide missiles, you know, coordinate troop movements.

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Speaker 2: It's all that kind of stuff, and.

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Speaker 1: It's become this absolutely fundamental infrastructure.

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Speaker 2: For civilian life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's reshaping everything, I mean, from logistics, transportation,

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I mean, even just meeting up with friends, right, if

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you're meeting it at a crowded place.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean it's it's amazing how quickly it became

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such a commonplace thing.

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Speaker 1: And that DARPA connection. It doesn't stop with just knowing

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where you are. Right. Think about the phone itself, right,

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the microprocessors inside, the tiny little silicon brains that power everything,

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the brains of the operation from your apps to your calls.

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That was all i mean, designed with significant DARPA funding.

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Speaker 3: Right, That early stage research was really crucial to get

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that technology to where it is today.

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Speaker 1: And how does all that processing power get its juice. Batteries,

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the batteries that keep our devices.

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Speaker 2: Running for hours on end.

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Speaker 1: I mean think about this right before before before the

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modern smartphone and batteries that DARPA helped to create. You know,

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your cell phone, you'd be lucky if you got like

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a day out of that thing.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and you have this giant brick in your pocket.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that like weighed you down.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So DARPA had a surprisingly significant role in

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the development of modern batteries as well.

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Speaker 2: Uh huh, they really did.

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Speaker 1: So if you if you connect this to the bigger picture, right,

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you start to see this pattern. Yeah with DARPA where

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they weren't just like dabbling in isolated inventions. They were

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laying the groundwork for entire industries that we just rely

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on every single day. Absolutely so, you know, from wireless

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technology that allows your phone to connect to cellular networks

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right Wi Fi, to the touch screen. The way that

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we interface with these devices so intuitively.

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Speaker 2: Now it's like second nature.

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Speaker 1: Right, you don't even have to think about it.

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Speaker 2: Nope.

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Speaker 1: Even the tiny microphone that picks up your voice when

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you make a call or if you're using a voice assistant,

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This all has roots in DARPA funded projects all the

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way back. And then of course, you know, we can't

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forget voice recognition technology, right and GPS, which you know,

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as we discussed, completely revolutionized navigation.

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Speaker 3: So I think this is a good time to bring

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up probably darp as most far reaching contribution.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I mean that would be the Internet, yeah, right, which,

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of course in the early days was known as Arbinett

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right before.

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Speaker 3: The D before the D And it's almost poetic that

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this agency that was focused on on defense, you know,

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that was their main goal, defense, defense, warfare, they ended

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up creating this technology that has so profoundly connected humanity, right, and.

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Speaker 1: It's it's crazy to think about that that came from

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this this desire to basically be better at war.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: So you know, going back to the genesis of the Internet, right, Yeah,

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it really lies squarely within airpa's early efforts and the

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problem they were trying to solve it was a big one, right.

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They needed to ensure reliable communication in case of in

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case of.

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Speaker 3: A nuclear attack, catastrophic event.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, back then, the existing communication infrastructure

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was it was centralized very much so, and they realized

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that that was too vulnerable.

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Speaker 3: It was a single point of failure. So you know,

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a well placed attack, you could cripple the whole thing,

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the whole system. So they needed something that was a

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little more let's say, resilient.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and so their solution was it was pretty revolutionary

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for the time. Yeah, packet switching. Packet switching, packet switching.

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Speaker 2: Now, packet switching.

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Speaker 3: I'll admit, I mean, I'm I'm kind of a tech person,

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But that sounds a little technical and intimidating.

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Speaker 1: It does sound a little jargon. He doesn't, Yeah, a.

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Speaker 3: Little bit, But in hindsight, I mean, it was incredibly

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forward thinking, and the underlying concept is actually pretty elegant.

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Speaker 1: It really is.

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Speaker 3: So so how would you explain that to somebody like

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like my mom? Okay, so let's imagine you want to

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send a really big document or a long message from

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one side.

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Speaker 2: Of the country to the other.

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Speaker 3: Now, instead of sending that as one continuous stream of data,

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which could be easily interrupted, you know, one big file,

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one big file, you break that message down into lots

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of smaller, independent chunks. These are the packets, and each

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packet travels across the network independently. It finds its own

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most efficient route at any given moment, kind of like cars, right,

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finding the fastest way through traffic, avoiding accidents.

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Speaker 2: You know, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: And then on the receiving end, all these packets get

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reassembled back into the original message.

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Speaker 1: So it's kind of like if you were to send

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a letter in the mail, okay, and you were to

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cut it up into like, you know, one hundred pieces

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and mail each piece individually, right, and then it all

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gets put back together at the recipient's.

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Speaker 2: End, exactly.

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Speaker 3: And it's that fundamental principle of breaking things down and

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sending them in these discrete units that still underpins how

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the whole Internet works today, and that's what provides that

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resilience and that flexibility.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, I think about you know today, most people,

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you know, didn't really start using what we now know

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is the Internet until you know, the late nineties, yeah,

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or even the early two thousands. I distinctly remember dial up,

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oh yeah, and those those painfully slow loading times.

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Speaker 2: It was excruciating.

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Speaker 1: It would take like ten minutes to download a picture.

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Speaker 2: Oh and that horrible screeching sound.

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Speaker 1: And you couldn't use the phone at the same time.

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Speaker 3: Right, it would kick everybody off. Yeah, the whole family

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would get mad at you.

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Speaker 1: Right, it's funny to think about it now. Yeah. So

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even before that, you know, back in the late seventies,

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early eighties, there was this small, you know, a really

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small group of you know, more technically inclined folks that

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were using their their landlines, yeah, to connect to these

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these text based online communities called bulletin board systems BBS's.

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I remember those, right, And it was, you know, very rudimentary,

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but still you know, it was it was a form

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of the Internet.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the precursor, right, but the foundational network that would

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eventually become the Internet. Arpenet was actually conceived back in

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nineteen sixty six, and the first message ever sent across

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Arpenet was in nineteen sixty nine. Yeah, and you know,

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under ARPA's guidance, you know, we had tcpip.

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Speaker 1: Oh, the Transmission Control Protocol Internet Protocol. Yeah, that's the

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that's the language that allowed all these different computer networks

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to talk to each other.

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Speaker 3: Right, and so we had all these disparate networks and

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then ARPA came in and was like, Okay, here's the

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here's the Rosetta stone, here's how we're all going to communicate, right,

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And they they also developed the fundamental concept of email,

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oh yeah, right, email, electronic mail.

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Speaker 1: Which is now i mean just completely essentially ubiquitous.

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Speaker 3: And they even invented the domain name system, right, which

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you know you think about it, like back then it

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was just it was just numbers, IP addresses, IP addresses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was not user friendly, no, I mean,

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can you imagine trying to like remember all those numbers.

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It's so much easier to remember, you know, Google dot

301
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com or or Apple dot com. Right, and that's all

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thanks to DARPA.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's pretty amazing.

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Speaker 1: So so you know, and their influence extends even to

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the very software that powers our computers. Yeah, huh right.

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So their work and this is with the University of California,

307
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Berkeley on BSD Unix, Oh yeah, had a massive impact.

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Speaker 2: On modern operating systems.

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Speaker 1: I mean, whether you're using you know, Windows or or

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Maco or Linux. Yeah, I mean you're or even the

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underlying systems that power smartphones. Yeah, it traces back to

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that early DARPA funding.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, it's really interesting to see, you know, how

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how far reaching their impact has been.

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Speaker 1: So this brings us to this really I think important concept. DARPAK.

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It's often said that they work about twenty years ahead

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of civilian tech. Yeah, right, and we've kind of seen

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that already.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but to really illustrate that, you know, think about this,

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DARPA was experimenting with self driving cars back in nineteen

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eighty four eighty four, and not just you know, playing

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around with it. They built a functioning self driving car.

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It's true back then.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is like you know, the time

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of like you know, big hair metal and stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, and.

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Speaker 1: They're driving around in self driving cars.

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Speaker 3: So and you know functional GPS technology nineteen seventy three, yeah, microprocessors,

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advanced motion sensors, wireless communicator. I mean, this was all

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all stuff that they were actively exploring decades before it

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became mainstream.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, before it was in your pocket.

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Speaker 2: Right right.

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Speaker 3: So, and you know, what's what's kind of sobering to

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think about is the original intent behind a lot of

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this groundbreaking technology. It wasn't necessarily to make our lives

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easier or more convenient or more connected. It was really

338
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meant to be better at war. It was to win

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on the battlefield, right and and to end lives more effectively. Yeah,

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and I mean it really highlights the double edged nature

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of innovation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's it's a it's a good reminder that,

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you know, technology, it's it's not inherently good or bad.

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It just depends on how it's used.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: So you know, all of that then takes us to

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the battlefield.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So you know when you think of modern warfare,

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what do you picture.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know, I imagine some soldier deployed, you know,

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in some far off corner of the world, maybe lying

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in wait with you know, a high powered sniper rifle.

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But you know, traditionally, you know, highly skilled snipers. They

354
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can engage targets. Yeah, at incredible distances, right, Yeah, over

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thirteen hundred yards.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's over three quarters of a mile.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, a long way.

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Speaker 1: I think that the longest confirmed kill with a sniper

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rifle is over two miles. That's wild. I mean can

360
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you even fathom that? Yeah, Like you can barely even

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see something two miles away, right, and here you are,

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you know, taking somebody out from that distance, Yeah, with

363
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a rifle and so dark. But they're pushing the boundaries

364
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of what's even conceivable. Yeah, in this realm, you know,

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in ways that really are like it's it's sci fi.

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It really is becoming reality. So you know, what's particularly

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intriguing to me is the level of precision and the

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increasing automation that we're seeing with weaponry. Oh right, So

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for example, let's let's talk about self guided bullets. Okay,

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have you heard about this?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the EXACTO project Extreme Accuracy Task Ordinance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, so these aren't you know, your granddad's bullets. No, no, no, right,

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These things have optical sensors, real time guidance.

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Speaker 3: Systems built right into the projectile.

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Speaker 1: Like built into the bullet, and they can maneuver mid flight.

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Speaker 3: They can literally turn corners, and.

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Speaker 1: They can lock onto moving targets potentially at distances you know,

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exceeding five or six miles.

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Speaker 3: Or even further who knows, right, I mean a lot

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of the exact capabilities are still classified, which is is

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telling in itself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, which I think in a lot of cases with DARPA,

383
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like the fact that they're not telling us something probably

384
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means it's even crazier than we think it is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they tend to be pretty good at keeping secrets, right,

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And so then you know from there, we move into

387
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into areas of Darper research that sound like they're just,

388
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you know, pulled right from the pages of a sci

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fi novel.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I mean you sent me some stuff about like the

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Magic Scepter project.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Magic Sceptor, which which is you know, the

394
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goal there. I mean it sounds ridiculous, right, but they

395
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want to literally they want to be able to see

396
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through walls.

397
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Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean it sounds impossible, right, but but you

398
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know they're working on it.

399
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Speaker 1: Or the jav project. Oh yeah, and that's that's looking

400
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at manipulating light bending light bending light so that you

401
00:19:12,079 --> 00:19:13,480
can essentially become invisible.

402
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Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's it's mind blowing, right, It's like,

403
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how how do you even begin to approach that problem? Yeah,

404
00:19:20,759 --> 00:19:22,880
it's really remarkable the stuff that they're working on.

405
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Speaker 1: And so you know, you you see Darper venturing into

406
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these really novel areas of scientific research and engineering, right.

407
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So you know there's a program called Engineering Living Materials.

408
00:19:35,559 --> 00:19:40,559
Oh yeah, and they're looking at using living organisms like

409
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fungus fungus as a building material, so they want to

410
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grow buildings out of mushrooms. Basically. That's pretty cool, right,

411
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I mean, imagine structures that can you know, essentially grow

412
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themselves on site, you know, use local resources and even

413
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like self heal. Yeah, you know if there's damage.

414
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Speaker 3: It's a crazy idea, but but you know it's it's

415
00:20:02,839 --> 00:20:04,519
it's kind of a cool one too.

416
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Speaker 1: Right, Like, and and think about the implications for for

417
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sustainability excellently. If you don't have to you know, truck

418
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in concrete or or steal or wood.

419
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Speaker 3: Right, you can just grow a building where you need it.

420
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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So it's it's a completely different way of

421
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thinking about about building and and infrastructure. And and then

422
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they're a fascination with the natural world. I mean it

423
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extends to to some pretty pretty unconventional Yeah, and frankly

424
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unsettling projects.

425
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Speaker 3: Yeah, unsettling, that's a good word.

426
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Speaker 1: So, so, for example, there's a project called Insect Allies, okay,

427
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and this is this is exploring the possibility of genetically

428
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modifying flying insects okay, like like think about a bee

429
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or a wasp huh, and and having them perform tasks

430
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like like attacking specific crops.

431
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Speaker 2: Okay, So weaponizing insects.

432
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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically it's it's kind of disturbing or making making

433
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crops more resistant to disease or even enabling them to

434
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self repair injuries in the.

435
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Speaker 3: Field, self repairing insects.

436
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Speaker 1: So I mean you could see how this could be

437
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you know, beneficial in some ways, but also potentially pretty harmful. Yeah, yeah, right,

438
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So the potential, the potential applications are just immense.

439
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Speaker 3: I mean we've all seen those movies, right right, the

440
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insects take over.

441
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Speaker 1: Right, And and that's the that's the scary part of this, right.

442
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Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's like, where's the line.

443
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Speaker 1: Where's the line? Yeah? And and and who decides where

444
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that line is exactly?

445
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Speaker 3: And are they going to be able to control these

446
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insects once they're modified?

447
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Speaker 1: Right? What if they turn on us?

448
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Speaker 2: Yeah?

449
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Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's definitely, it's it's pretty unsettling.

450
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Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's the stuff of nightmare.

451
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Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And and then there's you know,

452
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there's projects like high.

453
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Speaker 3: MS hybrid insect microelectrical mechanical systems, right.

454
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Speaker 1: And and then Project Dragonfly, oh wow, which which I

455
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mean the name alone is is kind of ominous.

456
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Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds it sounds very sci fi.

457
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Speaker 1: Right. So essentially what they're trying to do is create

458
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like these miniature flying cyborgs.

459
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Speaker 2: Flying cyborgs, so.

460
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Speaker 1: Think about ordinary insects beetles, moths, dragonflies, and they augment

461
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them with with cybernetic implants oh wow right, and potentially

462
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even like solar power guidance systems. And the idea here

463
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is to is to create these these undetectable platforms spy

464
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it