Speaker 1: Do you ever think about how some of the things
we see in like sci fi movies ended becoming like
real life. Yeah, you know, I mean from self driving cars,
which you know, back in the day felt like something
out of the Jetsons, to the Internet, right, like this
global network that connects billions of people like instantly.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: And it's crazy to think that a lot of these
huge leafs in technology they didn't start in like some
Silicon Valley garage. No, you know, they actually started within
a super low key but incredibly powerful organization. Yeah, and
it was born out of like this very real Cold
War era anxiety.
Speaker 2: I mean that tracks right.
Speaker 1: So we're talking about DARPA today.
Speaker 2: That's a that's a fun one, right, the.
Speaker 1: Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you're joining us today for a deep dive
into DARPA.
Speaker 1: We're going to we're going to trace its origins. Yeah,
he was born from a moment of like perceived technological vulnerability,
and then we're going to explore its absolute pivotal role
in creating technologies that like we use every day. It's ubiquitous, right, right,
I mean, you can't really even function in modern society
without interacting with something that DARPA had a hand in
at some point. Absolutely, and and we'll be taking a
look at some of its let's just say, more ambitious
and thought provoking projects.
Speaker 2: Yes, ambitious is a word.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean some of this stuff is straight out
of like a dystopian novel. The material that you give
me to prep with was it definitely points to a
very fascinating, a multifaceted legacy, right, Like, yeah, they've done
a lot of good, but then some things that you know,
maybe we should dig into a little deeper.
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, for sure, we're going to unpack all of that.
Speaker 2: For you today.
Speaker 1: Yeah, connect the dots, connect the dots, and ultimately reveal
the profound ways that DARPA has shaped the world, absolutely
in ways that most people have probably never even considered. Yeah,
so let's let's set the scene late nineteen fifties, right,
Cold War Okay, Union was just knocking it out of
the park when it came to the space race. Yeah,
it felt like they were hitting home run after home run. Yeah.
Speaker 3: They had Spotneck orbiting the Earth, first first.
Speaker 1: Artificial satellite to orbit the Earth.
Speaker 3: Then they sent Laika the Dog or like you know,
venturing out into the unknown. Yuri Gagarin the first human in.
Speaker 1: Space, Valentine and Trishkova first woman exactly, and.
Speaker 3: You know, kind of rub it in our faces a
little bit, even beat us to the punch with the
first spacecraft to loop around the moons on five.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And meanwhile, you know, you got the American space
program over here. Yeah, you know, it feels like they're
constantly trying to play catchup, always, always like one step behind.
Speaker 2: Yeah, tripping over their feet a lot.
Speaker 1: Yeah, stumbling. So you know what's interesting to consider is
like the national anxiety that's created at the time. Oh yeah,
I mean for the average American these Soviet successes, they
weren't just like a scientific achievement, right, This was seen
as a direct threat.
Speaker 2: Absolutely. It was a very very visceral fear.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was a technological gap that you know, could
potentially have some very real world military implications.
Speaker 3: And that was I mean, that was the core of it, right, right.
It was the Cold War, so everything was about you know,
potential conflict and the military implications of things, right. Right,
So when when the Soviets are launching things into space,
especially you know, living things into space and having them survive,
the immediate thought was well, what's the military application.
Speaker 1: Of this, and what does it mean if they can
get there first and we can't, Right, what if they
put weapons up there?
Speaker 3: I mean, think about the average person. Imagine the worry. Right,
Soviets not only reached space first, but they weaponize it.
That that fear, I mean, that was a huge motivator,
I think.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a very real fear. It's
interesting to think about it now in hindsight, but at
the time it was a very present threat.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 3: So you know, you have President Eisenhower, right, and he
felt this pressure. I mean, I'm sure he was getting
it from all sides.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, he understand good.
Speaker 3: That something needed to be done and it needed to
be done quickly. And so what does he do? Incredibly,
like just three months after the launch of Sputnik two,
he creates the Advanced Research Projects Agency or ARPA.
Speaker 1: And we all know where that went.
Speaker 2: Of course, as.
Speaker 3: You know, that later becomes DARPA in nineteen seventy two.
With the addition of that, you know, pretty significant d
for defense. But that initial mandate of URPA is so important.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's key to understanding the whole history and the impact.
Absolutely because They weren't about incremental improvements. They were tasked
with developing the most technologically advanced military systems.
Speaker 2: Think about that.
Speaker 1: I mean it was a skunk works. It was like,
you know, throw out all the conventional thinking. Let's just
come up with the craziest stuff that we can.
Speaker 2: Yeah, blue sky thinking.
Speaker 1: You know, no idea is too crazy, wild, let's just
put it all out there on the table and see
what sticks.
Speaker 3: Right. And I think that's where the dual nature that
we're going to talk about a lot today comes from.
Speaker 1: Sword and shields. Sword and shields if they called it right.
Speaker 3: Yeah, some of the sources that you sent me and
mentioned that, you know, the goal was to be both
a sword and a shield, you know, focus on the
offensive capabilities but also the defensive capabilities.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But what was striking was the mindset that.
Speaker 1: No project was was too.
Speaker 3: Expensive, too expensive, and even more more controversially, it seemed
like no program was off the table.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, if it.
Speaker 3: Was deemed essential for national security morality.
Speaker 1: It was secondary, which I think brings us to something
that you probably are holding in your hand right now, yeah,
probably or very close by listeners. Yeah, got it, your smartphone. Yeah,
it's it's it's impossible to overstate how deeply darp as
early work is embedded in the technology that makes that
device so indispensable to your life. Absolutely, you can't live.
Speaker 2: Without that thing pretty much. Yeah, I mean most people
feel that way these days.
Speaker 1: Right, and take navigation Okay, So you know, not that
long ago, if you were driving in a new city
and you took a wrong turn, what would you do?
Speaker 2: Ask for directions?
Speaker 1: Right? Or you'd be pulling over unfolding a cumbersome Thomas
guide remember those, oh.
Speaker 2: The massive paper outlases.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that never folded back correctly.
Speaker 1: You could never get it back the way it was
supposed to be.
Speaker 2: It was impossible.
Speaker 1: We had to like increase it in new spots to
get it to fit back in the glove compartment.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Or or desperately searching for a gas station or some
local business hoping somebody could give you directions.
Speaker 3: Yeah, hoping that the person you asked actually knew the way.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, It wasn't having a bad.
Speaker 3: Day, yeah, not in a rush, right, didn't just want
to send you on a wild goose chase.
Speaker 1: Right. So what's amazing to me is how GPS has
now become like this invisible utility. It's true that we
take completely for granted.
Speaker 2: We just expect it to work.
Speaker 1: It just works. Yeah, it guides you with incredible precision.
Speaker 3: And that technology, again was a result of DARPA's early
investments in satellite based navigation, initially conceived for military purposes.
Speaker 1: Right, So initially the idea was to guide missiles.
Speaker 3: Yeah, guide missiles, you know, coordinate troop movements.
Speaker 2: It's all that kind of stuff, and.
Speaker 1: It's become this absolutely fundamental infrastructure.
Speaker 2: For civilian life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's reshaping everything, I mean, from logistics, transportation,
I mean, even just meeting up with friends, right, if
you're meeting it at a crowded place.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean it's it's amazing how quickly it became
such a commonplace thing.
Speaker 1: And that DARPA connection. It doesn't stop with just knowing
where you are. Right. Think about the phone itself, right,
the microprocessors inside, the tiny little silicon brains that power everything,
the brains of the operation from your apps to your calls.
That was all i mean, designed with significant DARPA funding.
Speaker 3: Right, That early stage research was really crucial to get
that technology to where it is today.
Speaker 1: And how does all that processing power get its juice. Batteries,
the batteries that keep our devices.
Speaker 2: Running for hours on end.
Speaker 1: I mean think about this right before before before the
modern smartphone and batteries that DARPA helped to create. You know,
your cell phone, you'd be lucky if you got like
a day out of that thing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you have this giant brick in your pocket.
Speaker 2: Yeah that like weighed you down.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. So DARPA had a surprisingly significant role in
the development of modern batteries as well.
Speaker 2: Uh huh, they really did.
Speaker 1: So if you if you connect this to the bigger picture, right,
you start to see this pattern. Yeah with DARPA where
they weren't just like dabbling in isolated inventions. They were
laying the groundwork for entire industries that we just rely
on every single day. Absolutely so, you know, from wireless
technology that allows your phone to connect to cellular networks
right Wi Fi, to the touch screen. The way that
we interface with these devices so intuitively.
Speaker 2: Now it's like second nature.
Speaker 1: Right, you don't even have to think about it.
Speaker 2: Nope.
Speaker 1: Even the tiny microphone that picks up your voice when
you make a call or if you're using a voice assistant,
This all has roots in DARPA funded projects all the
way back. And then of course, you know, we can't
forget voice recognition technology, right and GPS, which you know,
as we discussed, completely revolutionized navigation.
Speaker 3: So I think this is a good time to bring
up probably darp as most far reaching contribution.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think so. I mean that would be the Internet, yeah, right, which,
of course in the early days was known as Arbinett
right before.
Speaker 3: The D before the D And it's almost poetic that
this agency that was focused on on defense, you know,
that was their main goal, defense, defense, warfare, they ended
up creating this technology that has so profoundly connected humanity, right, and.
Speaker 1: It's it's crazy to think about that that came from
this this desire to basically be better at war.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 1: So you know, going back to the genesis of the Internet, right, Yeah,
it really lies squarely within airpa's early efforts and the
problem they were trying to solve it was a big one, right.
They needed to ensure reliable communication in case of in
case of.
Speaker 3: A nuclear attack, catastrophic event.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, back then, the existing communication infrastructure
was it was centralized very much so, and they realized
that that was too vulnerable.
Speaker 3: It was a single point of failure. So you know,
a well placed attack, you could cripple the whole thing,
the whole system. So they needed something that was a
little more let's say, resilient.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so their solution was it was pretty revolutionary
for the time. Yeah, packet switching. Packet switching, packet switching.
Speaker 2: Now, packet switching.
Speaker 3: I'll admit, I mean, I'm I'm kind of a tech person,
But that sounds a little technical and intimidating.
Speaker 1: It does sound a little jargon. He doesn't, Yeah, a.
Speaker 3: Little bit, But in hindsight, I mean, it was incredibly
forward thinking, and the underlying concept is actually pretty elegant.
Speaker 1: It really is.
Speaker 3: So so how would you explain that to somebody like
like my mom? Okay, so let's imagine you want to
send a really big document or a long message from
one side.
Speaker 2: Of the country to the other.
Speaker 3: Now, instead of sending that as one continuous stream of data,
which could be easily interrupted, you know, one big file,
one big file, you break that message down into lots
of smaller, independent chunks. These are the packets, and each
packet travels across the network independently. It finds its own
most efficient route at any given moment, kind of like cars, right,
finding the fastest way through traffic, avoiding accidents.
Speaker 2: You know, that kind of thing.
Speaker 3: And then on the receiving end, all these packets get
reassembled back into the original message.
Speaker 1: So it's kind of like if you were to send
a letter in the mail, okay, and you were to
cut it up into like, you know, one hundred pieces
and mail each piece individually, right, and then it all
gets put back together at the recipient's.
Speaker 2: End, exactly.
Speaker 3: And it's that fundamental principle of breaking things down and
sending them in these discrete units that still underpins how
the whole Internet works today, and that's what provides that
resilience and that flexibility.
Speaker 1: So, you know, I think about you know today, most people,
you know, didn't really start using what we now know
is the Internet until you know, the late nineties, yeah,
or even the early two thousands. I distinctly remember dial up,
oh yeah, and those those painfully slow loading times.
Speaker 2: It was excruciating.
Speaker 1: It would take like ten minutes to download a picture.
Speaker 2: Oh and that horrible screeching sound.
Speaker 1: And you couldn't use the phone at the same time.
Speaker 3: Right, it would kick everybody off. Yeah, the whole family
would get mad at you.
Speaker 1: Right, it's funny to think about it now. Yeah. So
even before that, you know, back in the late seventies,
early eighties, there was this small, you know, a really
small group of you know, more technically inclined folks that
were using their their landlines, yeah, to connect to these
these text based online communities called bulletin board systems BBS's.
I remember those, right, And it was, you know, very rudimentary,
but still you know, it was it was a form
of the Internet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, the precursor, right, but the foundational network that would
eventually become the Internet. Arpenet was actually conceived back in
nineteen sixty six, and the first message ever sent across
Arpenet was in nineteen sixty nine. Yeah, and you know,
under ARPA's guidance, you know, we had tcpip.
Speaker 1: Oh, the Transmission Control Protocol Internet Protocol. Yeah, that's the
that's the language that allowed all these different computer networks
to talk to each other.
Speaker 3: Right, and so we had all these disparate networks and
then ARPA came in and was like, Okay, here's the
here's the Rosetta stone, here's how we're all going to communicate, right,
And they they also developed the fundamental concept of email,
oh yeah, right, email, electronic mail.
Speaker 1: Which is now i mean just completely essentially ubiquitous.
Speaker 3: And they even invented the domain name system, right, which
you know you think about it, like back then it
was just it was just numbers, IP addresses, IP addresses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was not user friendly, no, I mean,
can you imagine trying to like remember all those numbers.
It's so much easier to remember, you know, Google dot
com or or Apple dot com. Right, and that's all
thanks to DARPA.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a it's pretty amazing.
Speaker 1: So so you know, and their influence extends even to
the very software that powers our computers. Yeah, huh right.
So their work and this is with the University of California,
Berkeley on BSD Unix, Oh yeah, had a massive impact.
Speaker 2: On modern operating systems.
Speaker 1: I mean, whether you're using you know, Windows or or
Maco or Linux. Yeah, I mean you're or even the
underlying systems that power smartphones. Yeah, it traces back to
that early DARPA funding.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Absolutely, it's really interesting to see, you know, how
how far reaching their impact has been.
Speaker 1: So this brings us to this really I think important concept. DARPAK.
It's often said that they work about twenty years ahead
of civilian tech. Yeah, right, and we've kind of seen
that already.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but to really illustrate that, you know, think about this,
DARPA was experimenting with self driving cars back in nineteen
eighty four eighty four, and not just you know, playing
around with it. They built a functioning self driving car.
It's true back then.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is like you know, the time
of like you know, big hair metal and stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, and.
Speaker 1: They're driving around in self driving cars.
Speaker 3: So and you know functional GPS technology nineteen seventy three, yeah, microprocessors,
advanced motion sensors, wireless communicator. I mean, this was all
all stuff that they were actively exploring decades before it
became mainstream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, before it was in your pocket.
Speaker 2: Right right.
Speaker 3: So, and you know, what's what's kind of sobering to
think about is the original intent behind a lot of
this groundbreaking technology. It wasn't necessarily to make our lives
easier or more convenient or more connected. It was really
meant to be better at war. It was to win
on the battlefield, right and and to end lives more effectively. Yeah,
and I mean it really highlights the double edged nature
of innovation.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean it's it's a it's a good reminder that,
you know, technology, it's it's not inherently good or bad.
It just depends on how it's used.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 1: So you know, all of that then takes us to
the battlefield.
Speaker 3: Okay, So you know when you think of modern warfare,
what do you picture.
Speaker 1: Well, you know, I imagine some soldier deployed, you know,
in some far off corner of the world, maybe lying
in wait with you know, a high powered sniper rifle.
But you know, traditionally, you know, highly skilled snipers. They
can engage targets. Yeah, at incredible distances, right, Yeah, over
thirteen hundred yards.
Speaker 2: I mean that's over three quarters of a mile.
Speaker 3: Yeah, a long way.
Speaker 1: I think that the longest confirmed kill with a sniper
rifle is over two miles. That's wild. I mean can
you even fathom that? Yeah, Like you can barely even
see something two miles away, right, and here you are,
you know, taking somebody out from that distance, Yeah, with
a rifle and so dark. But they're pushing the boundaries
of what's even conceivable. Yeah, in this realm, you know,
in ways that really are like it's it's sci fi.
It really is becoming reality. So you know, what's particularly
intriguing to me is the level of precision and the
increasing automation that we're seeing with weaponry. Oh right, So
for example, let's let's talk about self guided bullets. Okay,
have you heard about this?
Speaker 3: Yeah, the EXACTO project Extreme Accuracy Task Ordinance.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Right, so these aren't you know, your granddad's bullets. No, no, no, right,
These things have optical sensors, real time guidance.
Speaker 3: Systems built right into the projectile.
Speaker 1: Like built into the bullet, and they can maneuver mid flight.
Speaker 3: They can literally turn corners, and.
Speaker 1: They can lock onto moving targets potentially at distances you know,
exceeding five or six miles.
Speaker 3: Or even further who knows, right, I mean a lot
of the exact capabilities are still classified, which is is
telling in itself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which I think in a lot of cases with DARPA,
like the fact that they're not telling us something probably
means it's even crazier than we think it is.
Speaker 3: Yeah, they tend to be pretty good at keeping secrets, right,
And so then you know from there, we move into
into areas of Darper research that sound like they're just,
you know, pulled right from the pages of a sci
fi novel.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I mean you sent me some stuff about like the
Magic Scepter project.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Magic Sceptor, which which is you know, the
goal there. I mean it sounds ridiculous, right, but they
want to literally they want to be able to see
through walls.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean it sounds impossible, right, but but you
know they're working on it.
Speaker 1: Or the jav project. Oh yeah, and that's that's looking
at manipulating light bending light bending light so that you
can essentially become invisible.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's it's it's mind blowing, right, It's like,
how how do you even begin to approach that problem? Yeah,
it's really remarkable the stuff that they're working on.
Speaker 1: And so you know, you you see Darper venturing into
these really novel areas of scientific research and engineering, right.
So you know there's a program called Engineering Living Materials.
Oh yeah, and they're looking at using living organisms like
fungus fungus as a building material, so they want to
grow buildings out of mushrooms. Basically. That's pretty cool, right,
I mean, imagine structures that can you know, essentially grow
themselves on site, you know, use local resources and even
like self heal. Yeah, you know if there's damage.
Speaker 3: It's a crazy idea, but but you know it's it's
it's kind of a cool one too.
Speaker 1: Right, Like, and and think about the implications for for
sustainability excellently. If you don't have to you know, truck
in concrete or or steal or wood.
Speaker 3: Right, you can just grow a building where you need it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So it's it's a completely different way of
thinking about about building and and infrastructure. And and then
they're a fascination with the natural world. I mean it
extends to to some pretty pretty unconventional Yeah, and frankly
unsettling projects.
Speaker 3: Yeah, unsettling, that's a good word.
Speaker 1: So, so, for example, there's a project called Insect Allies, okay,
and this is this is exploring the possibility of genetically
modifying flying insects okay, like like think about a bee
or a wasp huh, and and having them perform tasks
like like attacking specific crops.
Speaker 2: Okay, So weaponizing insects.
Speaker 1: Yeah, basically it's it's kind of disturbing or making making
crops more resistant to disease or even enabling them to
self repair injuries in the.
Speaker 3: Field, self repairing insects.
Speaker 1: So I mean you could see how this could be
you know, beneficial in some ways, but also potentially pretty harmful. Yeah, yeah, right,
So the potential, the potential applications are just immense.
Speaker 3: I mean we've all seen those movies, right right, the
insects take over.
Speaker 1: Right, And and that's the that's the scary part of this, right.
Speaker 2: Yeah, It's it's like, where's the line.
Speaker 1: Where's the line? Yeah? And and and who decides where
that line is exactly?
Speaker 3: And are they going to be able to control these
insects once they're modified?
Speaker 1: Right? What if they turn on us?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 1: So you know, it's it's definitely, it's it's pretty unsettling.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's it's the stuff of nightmare.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it really is. And and then there's you know,
there's projects like high.
Speaker 3: MS hybrid insect microelectrical mechanical systems, right.
Speaker 1: And and then Project Dragonfly, oh wow, which which I
mean the name alone is is kind of ominous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds it sounds very sci fi.
Speaker 1: Right. So essentially what they're trying to do is create
like these miniature flying cyborgs.
Speaker 2: Flying cyborgs, so.
Speaker 1: Think about ordinary insects beetles, moths, dragonflies, and they augment
them with with cybernetic implants oh wow right, and potentially
even like solar power guidance systems. And the idea here
is to is to create these these undetectable platforms spy
it