WEBVTT 1 00:00:42.560 --> 00:00:45.479 Welcome to Amusing Jews, where we celebrate Jewish contributors and 2 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:49.600 contributions to American popular culture. I'm Jonathan Friedman and I'm 3 00:00:49.679 --> 00:00:54.119 Joey Angelfield producer engineer Mike Tomrn is working somewhere behind 4 00:00:54.119 --> 00:00:56.679 the scenes. Amusing Jews is a project of a Dot 5 00:00:56.719 --> 00:01:00.359 cavaem Congregation for Humanistic Judaism, the Jewish Museum of the 6 00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:05.040 American West, and Atheist United Studios, Hey Joey. On November 7 00:01:05.079 --> 00:01:08.799 twenty fourth, nineteen sixty three, an unassuming man leapt in 8 00:01:08.840 --> 00:01:12.200 front of news reporters and police officers as Lee Harvey 9 00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.239 Oswald was being escorted through the basement of a Dallas 10 00:01:15.280 --> 00:01:19.560 police station. The man fatally shot Oswald once in the abdomen, 11 00:01:20.040 --> 00:01:23.400 and it was captured on live TV. The shooter was 12 00:01:23.480 --> 00:01:26.280 Jack Ruby, who would forever be known as the guy 13 00:01:26.280 --> 00:01:29.920 who shot the guy who shot JFK. But who exactly 14 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:33.640 was Jack Ruby. We're thrilled to chat with Danny Fingera, 15 00:01:34.000 --> 00:01:37.640 a biographer, cultural historian, and former writer and editor at 16 00:01:37.680 --> 00:01:41.120 Marvel Comics, whose latest book is Jack Ruby, The Many 17 00:01:41.120 --> 00:01:45.719 Faces of Oswald's Assassin. He also authored A Marvelous Life, 18 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:50.400 The Amazing Story of stan Lee disguised as Clark Kent Jews, 19 00:01:50.560 --> 00:01:54.439 comics and the creation of the superhero and Superman on 20 00:01:54.480 --> 00:01:57.680 the Couch. What superheroes really tell us about ourselves in 21 00:01:57.680 --> 00:02:00.959 our society, Danny too, Amusing Jews. 22 00:02:01.439 --> 00:02:04.959 Well, thank you for inviting me, And as I said 23 00:02:04.120 --> 00:02:07.319 in the pre show conversation, it's a lot of pressure 24 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:09.039 to be on a show called Amusing Jews, but I 25 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:10.400 will do my best. 26 00:02:10.840 --> 00:02:12.719 You spent over ten years on covering the life and 27 00:02:12.759 --> 00:02:15.639 times of Jack Ruby. What initially attracted you to him 28 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:16.800 as a research topic? 29 00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:20.840 You know, of course, my background is comics and graphic novels. 30 00:02:21.319 --> 00:02:23.159 I've written a number of books and a ton of 31 00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:27.199 comic books, and around as it was coming to be 32 00:02:27.240 --> 00:02:31.680 the fiftieth anniversary of the assassination of the JFK assassination, 33 00:02:32.919 --> 00:02:36.280 I really thought, gee, you know, I had not done 34 00:02:36.319 --> 00:02:42.000 a full length nonfiction graphic novel before, you know, and 35 00:02:42.039 --> 00:02:44.400 I'd like to and I'd like to do something that 36 00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:49.520 people might actually want to buy and read. I wonder 37 00:02:49.560 --> 00:02:53.080 if there's a lot of people doing JFK fiftieth anniversary 38 00:02:53.719 --> 00:02:57.439 graphic novels, and I couldn't find anybody doing one. Turned 39 00:02:57.439 --> 00:03:02.240 out that somebody else was that the Dan Mischkin and 40 00:03:02.280 --> 00:03:05.039 I'm blanking on the artist. But they did one about 41 00:03:05.039 --> 00:03:07.199 the warrantormission, but that was I didn't know about that. 42 00:03:07.360 --> 00:03:11.120 It's a whole different approach. So I started researching the 43 00:03:11.199 --> 00:03:13.680 Kennedy assassination. I was ten years old when it happened. 44 00:03:14.159 --> 00:03:16.400 Your listeners and viewers can do the math and figure 45 00:03:16.439 --> 00:03:17.919 out how old I am, but I was ten years old, 46 00:03:17.960 --> 00:03:19.919 ten years old when it happened, and so I had 47 00:03:19.960 --> 00:03:23.199 a ten year, ten year old understanding of it. And 48 00:03:23.240 --> 00:03:28.360 I was never obsessed with the various conspiracy theories. They 49 00:03:29.280 --> 00:03:30.840 just it just seemed like a blur to me. It 50 00:03:30.919 --> 00:03:33.639 just seemed like you could plug in a hundred different 51 00:03:33.639 --> 00:03:37.960 theories and it just was overwhelming, you know. So it's 52 00:03:37.960 --> 00:03:40.599 not that I didn't believe that maybe there was more 53 00:03:40.680 --> 00:03:45.199 going on than the general understanding, but it just was 54 00:03:46.159 --> 00:03:53.840 an overload. So I started researching, and the more I 55 00:03:53.879 --> 00:03:58.759 read about Jack Ruby, the more I realized that that 56 00:03:58.960 --> 00:04:04.319 was my entry point into the story of the JFK assassination. 57 00:04:05.599 --> 00:04:06.400 He was. 58 00:04:07.919 --> 00:04:13.439 The greatest generation Jewish guy, you know, first generation American 59 00:04:13.479 --> 00:04:20.600 born from like a crazy enmeshed Jewish family. One sibling 60 00:04:20.720 --> 00:04:25.519 nuttier than the next, all of them interesting. And here 61 00:04:25.879 --> 00:04:28.199 was you know, what I say to people is unless 62 00:04:28.240 --> 00:04:32.319 you yourself are your craziest cousin, imagine your craziest cousin 63 00:04:32.600 --> 00:04:36.360 stepping into history and killing Oswald. Either way, whether whether 64 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:40.120 you identify, whether or you know somebody, because that's you 65 00:04:40.160 --> 00:04:46.319 know if. And so that was approaching the the fiftieth anniversary, 66 00:04:46.319 --> 00:04:47.839 and I did a lot of research and I was 67 00:04:48.560 --> 00:04:51.319 and then I realized there was a memoir written by 68 00:04:51.360 --> 00:04:55.079 a Los Angeles rabbi named Hillel Silverman, whose son you 69 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:59.079 may know from the movie Weekend at Bernie Jonathan Silverman. Well, 70 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:02.360 Jonathan Silverman's father. Hillel, who just died like two years 71 00:05:02.360 --> 00:05:05.079 ago at age ninety nine, was sort of on his 72 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.920 career path. He was a rabbi in Dallas for ten 73 00:05:08.000 --> 00:05:11.199 years and one of his congregants was jet Jack Ruby. 74 00:05:11.879 --> 00:05:15.079 And Silverman wrote about it in his memoir, and he 75 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:18.079 was interviewed a lot, and uh, you know, I was 76 00:05:18.120 --> 00:05:21.759 able to make contact with him through some contacts of 77 00:05:21.839 --> 00:05:27.720 vine in the Jewish world, and I spoke to him 78 00:05:27.839 --> 00:05:29.879 and he said that this was even then, even ten 79 00:05:30.040 --> 00:05:32.480 twelve years ago. He said, I'm almost ninety. I'm not 80 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:34.959 writing my book anymore. Everybody in that Jack re record 81 00:05:35.040 --> 00:05:37.439 room was writing a book. I'm not writing my book anymore. 82 00:05:37.639 --> 00:05:39.160 Would you like to see my notes? And when I 83 00:05:39.279 --> 00:05:42.079 visited Jack in prison every other day for four months, 84 00:05:42.560 --> 00:05:46.839 I said, yeah, I wouldn't mind. Uh So, the you know, 85 00:05:47.399 --> 00:05:50.920 the the notes came and they were just mind boggling. 86 00:05:51.240 --> 00:05:54.560 I didn't realize how rich they were until, you know, 87 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:57.439 until I compared them to like the trial transcripts and 88 00:05:57.480 --> 00:06:00.639 the newspaper reports and other brand I went, you know this, 89 00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:03.800 the stuff of the rabbi visiting him and the rabbi's 90 00:06:03.839 --> 00:06:08.519 own reflections really were just sort of an added ingredient 91 00:06:08.560 --> 00:06:10.720 that made, you know, it made it for better or worse. 92 00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:11.879 A very Jewish story. 93 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:15.279 Ruby was very Jewish identified. He was very concerned about 94 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:18.639 anti Semitism in Dallas. Anyway, I did a lot of research, 95 00:06:19.439 --> 00:06:23.000 and then I was connected by a book packager named 96 00:06:23.040 --> 00:06:26.639 Howard Zimmerman, who I knew from working at a company 97 00:06:26.680 --> 00:06:30.519 called Byron Price. And he put me together with an 98 00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:32.439 artist who you may have heard a named Rick Eary. 99 00:06:32.959 --> 00:06:34.680 Rick is a great I guess I don't you call 100 00:06:34.759 --> 00:06:37.279 him underground or independent? He said, I mean, you know, 101 00:06:37.319 --> 00:06:40.360 he still puts out lots of graphic novels, a lot 102 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:44.879 about true murder cases. And really, we couldn't find anybody 103 00:06:45.000 --> 00:06:47.199 who would passed an advance big enough to Rick to 104 00:06:47.240 --> 00:06:49.920 spend two years during this two hunder page graphic novel, 105 00:06:50.560 --> 00:06:52.800 so I back burned it. And then in the meantime 106 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:56.560 I wrote the other book, some of the other books, 107 00:06:56.600 --> 00:06:59.279 including specifically the stan Lee biography, so I had some 108 00:06:59.319 --> 00:07:03.399 credentials of biographer. That book was generally well reviewed and 109 00:07:03.720 --> 00:07:07.639 sold pretty well. So as we're coming around the sixtieth anniversary, 110 00:07:09.079 --> 00:07:10.519 I said to my agent, do you think we could 111 00:07:10.600 --> 00:07:13.600 revive the Ruby graphic novel project just as a straight 112 00:07:13.639 --> 00:07:18.000 prose biography, and Chicago we did, and I wrote an 113 00:07:18.040 --> 00:07:22.639 elaborate proposal at Chicago Review press Board. And you know, 114 00:07:22.720 --> 00:07:25.439 in the meantime, I wouldn't say I spent every waking 115 00:07:25.480 --> 00:07:27.800 moment researching it, but obviously my antenna were up, and 116 00:07:27.839 --> 00:07:30.079 I would just anytime I saw anything or heard anything 117 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:34.240 about Ruby. And then, you know, as much as I 118 00:07:34.319 --> 00:07:38.319 love graphic novels and comics, certainly my I approached for 119 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.800 a prose biography, I had to do a lot more 120 00:07:42.839 --> 00:07:45.959 research and I knew a lot more about biographies and 121 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:49.600 how they're done, and and so I figured I'm not 122 00:07:49.720 --> 00:07:52.199 smart enough to figure out all the mysteries of the 123 00:07:52.279 --> 00:07:55.160 Kennedy assassination. You know, smarter people than me, you spend 124 00:07:55.199 --> 00:07:59.000 decades trying to figure out what really happened. But I 125 00:07:59.079 --> 00:08:04.879 know crazy Jews, and so I could figure out try 126 00:08:04.920 --> 00:08:09.160 to figure out something about what might have motivated Jack Ruby, 127 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:12.759 and so and so I spoke to I did a 128 00:08:12.759 --> 00:08:15.920 bunch of research at the sixth Floor Museum, which is 129 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:19.720 the book depository in Dallas. I spoke to Ruby's niece 130 00:08:19.720 --> 00:08:23.639 and nephew, who before that had not really done a 131 00:08:23.639 --> 00:08:27.240 lot of speaking to the press or biographers. I spoke to, 132 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:33.600 of course the rabbi. I spoke to the children of 133 00:08:33.799 --> 00:08:37.080 the other Jewish strip club owners in Dallas at the time, 134 00:08:37.159 --> 00:08:40.240 who you know, who hated Jack Ruby, but how to 135 00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:42.679 do business. It was I found out a lot more 136 00:08:42.720 --> 00:08:47.440 about like the semi underbelly of the Dallas nightclub subculture 137 00:08:47.519 --> 00:08:51.039 and criminal subculture than I wanted to, you know. But 138 00:08:51.679 --> 00:08:54.879 so that was that was my interest. But it you know, 139 00:08:55.080 --> 00:08:57.799 it's similar to my interest in writing about the history 140 00:08:57.919 --> 00:09:04.679 of the Jews who were the creators and publishers of Superman, 141 00:09:04.840 --> 00:09:08.360 Batman Fantastic, you know, Marvel and DC and and and 142 00:09:08.519 --> 00:09:11.639 the and Will Eisner in graphic novels. So it was 143 00:09:11.679 --> 00:09:14.480 sort of a fascination with that generation that was my 144 00:09:14.639 --> 00:09:18.720 parents and aunts and uncles generation. And yet obviously, you know, 145 00:09:19.000 --> 00:09:22.200 I mean the comic book people, and obviously people like 146 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.480 Jack Ruby went different routes, and yet not so you know, 147 00:09:26.559 --> 00:09:30.000 and yet not so different. There were there were people 148 00:09:30.600 --> 00:09:33.279 my father had multiple careers, or one of them was 149 00:09:33.279 --> 00:09:36.080 he was a partner in a kosher banquet catering business 150 00:09:36.120 --> 00:09:40.720 in the Bronx, and so in that business, you know, 151 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:43.960 I don't know. He died fairly young, when I was 152 00:09:44.000 --> 00:09:47.360 fairly young, but I have a feeling he came across 153 00:09:47.440 --> 00:09:51.399 a lot of shady characters in that in that world 154 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:55.639 that you know that there's there's a lot, you know, 155 00:09:55.679 --> 00:09:57.440 there's a lot going on behind the scenes of your 156 00:09:57.440 --> 00:09:59.399 fancy barmits with that you don't want to know about. 157 00:10:00.039 --> 00:10:02.799 And I have a feeling that my dad probably came 158 00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:06.360 in contact with and associated with people not unlike Jack Ruby, 159 00:10:06.480 --> 00:10:09.879 except except Ruby out of Chicago accent, and my family 160 00:10:09.879 --> 00:10:12.519 had a New York accent joining the show. 161 00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:16.120 Click like and subscribe. You mentioned in the book that 162 00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:19.039 you were buying comics at a secondhand magazine store on 163 00:10:19.159 --> 00:10:24.080 First Avenue in Manhattan when JFK was assassinated. How did 164 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:26.720 you first learn that Oswald had been shot? 165 00:10:27.000 --> 00:10:29.240 You know, I really need to make up a good 166 00:10:29.279 --> 00:10:34.080 answer for this question, because I don't have one. It's 167 00:10:34.159 --> 00:10:36.679 so stupid. I remember where I was when I found 168 00:10:36.679 --> 00:10:40.480 out that the JFK was shot, because and you know, 169 00:10:41.279 --> 00:10:43.879 I was a student at Yeshiva in New York and 170 00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.000 it was November and he got dark earlier on Friday, 171 00:10:47.639 --> 00:10:52.080 and so we were dismissed early on Friday. But the 172 00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:55.240 friend I was with and I both lived close enough, 173 00:10:55.559 --> 00:10:57.120 you know, we went to school close enough to where 174 00:10:57.159 --> 00:11:00.320 we lived that we could kill some time, and so 175 00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:02.240 we were both comic fans, and we went to this 176 00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:06.200 used comic shop like you're in eighty six in Yorkville, 177 00:11:06.240 --> 00:11:12.039 in Manhattan, and I just remember we were walking in 178 00:11:12.120 --> 00:11:14.039 some we saw some other French from school and they 179 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:17.559 told us, and that's about as dull as it can get. 180 00:11:17.639 --> 00:11:20.840 And then I just have a memory of seeing Ruby, 181 00:11:20.879 --> 00:11:22.799 and I honestly don't know if I saw it live 182 00:11:23.320 --> 00:11:25.799 or if I saw a videotape up, Because here's the thing. 183 00:11:27.559 --> 00:11:30.960 In the days before the internet, in the days before videotape, 184 00:11:32.919 --> 00:11:37.200 it was just TV. And if you're ten years old, 185 00:11:37.840 --> 00:11:41.600 all that was on every channel was the Kennedy assassination coverage, 186 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:43.960 and you know the way news is, you know, this 187 00:11:44.279 --> 00:11:48.879 is really the first, you know, widespread covered event, and 188 00:11:48.960 --> 00:11:51.279 really it was just repeating the same stuff over and 189 00:11:51.320 --> 00:11:53.080 over and over, and meanwhile, I'm ten years old, where 190 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:53.919 are my cartoons? 191 00:11:54.279 --> 00:11:56.879 It began with the fatal shooting of Lee Harvey Oswald 192 00:11:57.000 --> 00:11:59.639 to accused the assassin of John Kennedy by Jack Ruby, 193 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:03.600 Dallas nightclub owner, in the basement of Dallas police headquarters. 194 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:06.799 Here's how it looked and sounded on live nationwide television. 195 00:12:07.120 --> 00:12:10.919 The voice is that of NBC reporter Tom Pettitt. Yeah, 196 00:12:10.960 --> 00:12:16.039 but there is way. He's been shot. 197 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:17.639 He's been shot. 198 00:12:17.919 --> 00:12:19.279 Oswald has been shot. 199 00:12:19.639 --> 00:12:22.679 I know I saw it, but I don't have a 200 00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.720 great memory of it. It's I really have to just 201 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:27.879 make something up and just you know, because everybody else 202 00:12:27.879 --> 00:12:31.440 has Oh, my mother's face turned white, and you know 203 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:34.200 my you know, my father chill over. I mean, everybody 204 00:12:34.279 --> 00:12:38.559 has a story and I'm like, you know, I'm sure 205 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:41.360 we were watching TV because it was obviously a major 206 00:12:41.440 --> 00:12:46.840 thing my father, you know, my dad, because he was 207 00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.320 at this catering business. He worked on the weekend. So 208 00:12:50.360 --> 00:12:51.879 you know, I'm sure my dad was trying to figure 209 00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:54.879 out whether to even go ahead with the weddings and 210 00:12:54.960 --> 00:12:57.480 bar mits was they had planned that weekend. You know, 211 00:12:57.519 --> 00:13:00.120 because my dad was a quote unquote famous cantor in 212 00:13:00.159 --> 00:13:02.840 other words, like being a famous comic book editor. It's 213 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:05.360 important to who it's important to, you know. I think 214 00:13:05.360 --> 00:13:08.279 my dad was trying, you know, I was probably getting ready, 215 00:13:08.360 --> 00:13:13.200 you know, to go and officiate at a wedding ceremony 216 00:13:13.320 --> 00:13:16.720 and wondering what the mood would be. So but I 217 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:21.600 do remember watching, you know, seeing it on TV. But no, 218 00:13:21.919 --> 00:13:25.399 and again, you're ten years old. When you're a kid, 219 00:13:25.600 --> 00:13:28.320 you kind of think, well, maybe this happens all the time, 220 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:29.840 and I just didn't know about it because I'm ten 221 00:13:29.879 --> 00:13:33.080 years old, you know, you know, I or maybe I 222 00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:35.480 was just an idiot, you know, but the you tell me, 223 00:13:35.600 --> 00:13:40.440 the the magnitude of it, I knew it. But I 224 00:13:40.519 --> 00:13:42.799 don't have a great story. So all I can do 225 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:45.440 is just try to be amusing and dance around and 226 00:13:45.919 --> 00:13:47.559 you know, and explain that I don't have a great 227 00:13:47.559 --> 00:13:48.440 story in. 228 00:13:48.519 --> 00:13:50.759 Your defense, Danny, one day somebody will ask me for 229 00:13:50.799 --> 00:13:53.080 an OJ story. You know, I was pretty young when 230 00:13:53.080 --> 00:13:55.759 it happened. I don't really remember, but it was interrupting 231 00:13:55.799 --> 00:13:57.960 a lot of my cartoons, but I do remember that. 232 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:02.240 Yeah, the whole kid view of the world. 233 00:14:02.879 --> 00:14:04.679 Yeah, and then he was on my POGs, you know, 234 00:14:04.840 --> 00:14:07.159 and I was like, oh, okay, well this is another 235 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:08.480 cultural outgrowth. 236 00:14:08.720 --> 00:14:13.799 It's interesting that it turns out the Jack Ruby story 237 00:14:13.840 --> 00:14:18.480 and Jack Ruby's life intersected with a bunch of my 238 00:14:18.960 --> 00:14:21.879 you know, culture and sports heroes. I mean, most specifically 239 00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:27.559 Mickey Mantle, who was, you know, this blonde hair, blue eyed, 240 00:14:29.000 --> 00:14:33.440 shining baseball god to every Jewish boy who wasn't the 241 00:14:33.519 --> 00:14:37.879 Dodgers fan, you know, in in New York. So that Mickey, 242 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:39.919 I mean, that was that was that when you asked 243 00:14:39.919 --> 00:14:41.720 me before what led me to want to do the 244 00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:44.039 Ruby story, It was the Jewish thing. But then it 245 00:14:44.120 --> 00:14:47.759 was also that this guy, because he was in show business, 246 00:14:48.000 --> 00:14:51.000 you know, albeit like you know, a sleazy aspect of 247 00:14:51.039 --> 00:14:56.440 show business, came into contact with all these unexpected people. 248 00:14:57.039 --> 00:14:59.840 Jack Ruby the last person to give Hank Williams c 249 00:15:00.080 --> 00:15:03.320 your regular work. And suddenly Mickey Mantle is showing up 250 00:15:03.360 --> 00:15:06.759 and Louis Arms. I mean, just just this this lineup 251 00:15:06.799 --> 00:15:09.919 of people that that go you know, and and and 252 00:15:10.000 --> 00:15:12.559 you know when Rabbi Silverman and then all the celebrities. 253 00:15:12.840 --> 00:15:15.159 You know, my joke used to be, and maybe you 254 00:15:15.240 --> 00:15:18.000 guys in La can double a triple check. I used 255 00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.320 to joke that Silverman got burned out into Aallas and 256 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:23.759 went to LA and became Buddy Hackett's rabbi. But you know, 257 00:15:23.879 --> 00:15:27.639 it turned out he was Buddy Hackett's Rabbi. Yeah. So 258 00:15:28.559 --> 00:15:35.320 so there was so many weird intersections of you know, 259 00:15:35.639 --> 00:15:38.639 and then and then it turned out that Jack Kirby, 260 00:15:39.799 --> 00:15:43.799 who you know, co created all the major Marvel characters, 261 00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:48.240 drew a Jack Ruby comics for Esquire magazine in nineteen 262 00:15:48.279 --> 00:15:51.799 sixty seven. You know, so all just all this stuff 263 00:15:51.919 --> 00:15:54.639 just it just it just it seemed I was faded 264 00:15:54.720 --> 00:15:56.919 to write a book about Jack Ruby. 265 00:15:57.320 --> 00:15:59.559 You spent most of your career as a Marvel comics 266 00:15:59.559 --> 00:16:02.639 writer editor. Did any of that experience come in handy 267 00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:06.200 when piecing together the convoluted story of Jack Ruby. One 268 00:16:06.240 --> 00:16:08.879 thing we deal in a lot in superhero comics is 269 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:13.279 conspiracy stories, you know, just you know, doctor Doom is 270 00:16:13.320 --> 00:16:16.000 behind this and the Red Skull and and it goes, 271 00:16:16.039 --> 00:16:19.000 you know, I mean sort of layer upon layer, so 272 00:16:19.519 --> 00:16:22.639 that that view of the world was not unfamiliar to me. 273 00:16:24.120 --> 00:16:27.840 And I think the thing that I tried to do, 274 00:16:30.159 --> 00:16:35.399 you know, I've read biographies of really interesting people, and 275 00:16:35.480 --> 00:16:39.320 the biographies were so boring. It's like, and you go, 276 00:16:39.720 --> 00:16:42.440 how did you take this really interesting person and make 277 00:16:42.600 --> 00:16:47.039 such a dull book? You know, And and so I 278 00:16:47.039 --> 00:16:49.320 guess one thing that I learned in the world of 279 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:53.679 you know, of genre comics, of superhero comics was, if 280 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.360 not every page, certainly every chapter has to end on 281 00:16:56.399 --> 00:16:59.720 some kind of cliff hunger and ideally you know, several 282 00:16:59.759 --> 00:17:02.759 of them. So I tried to do that. I tried 283 00:17:02.759 --> 00:17:07.400 to without sensationalizing it. I tried, and I mean, you know, 284 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:10.200 it's you know, you have a story with you know, 285 00:17:10.359 --> 00:17:15.000 people getting shot and suspicions of conspiracies and you know, 286 00:17:15.799 --> 00:17:22.640 anti semitism and racism and just American history, and you know, 287 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.240 I mean, you just have all the ingredients for a 288 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:30.200 great story, you know, whatever else you may think. I mean, 289 00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:34.119 there's you know there you know, that is one of 290 00:17:34.200 --> 00:17:37.799 the reasons that people are still talking about it. They're 291 00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:41.279 still having congressional hearings the sixty plus years later. So 292 00:17:41.319 --> 00:17:45.920 I mean, there's you know, it's a compelling story, and 293 00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.880 I just tried not to mess it up. 294 00:17:48.000 --> 00:17:50.799 During the trial, Ruby's defense tried to argue that he 295 00:17:50.839 --> 00:17:54.480 had a temporary blackout at the time he shot Oswald. 296 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:56.720 Do you think there's any validity to that. 297 00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:01.319 I think there was. Yes, The short answer is yes. 298 00:18:01.720 --> 00:18:04.559 But like everything else with the Kennedy assassination, it's complicated 299 00:18:04.559 --> 00:18:11.519 in their layers upon layers. So Ruby's muddy family they 300 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:15.960 banded together because they just saw their brother kill Lee 301 00:18:16.039 --> 00:18:21.519 Harveyaswold on television, and so they pooled their resources. And 302 00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.960 most of the resources were in the hands of his 303 00:18:26.039 --> 00:18:28.640 kid brother, Earl Ruby, who was a dry cleaning mine 304 00:18:28.720 --> 00:18:31.759 and in Detroit, and Earl really looked up to Jack. 305 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.839 You know, Jack, Jack had a Jack was a violent 306 00:18:37.640 --> 00:18:40.400 temp you know, uh, short tempered guy. But some of 307 00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:42.640 that violence and short tempered was devoted to beating up 308 00:18:42.720 --> 00:18:46.079 Nazis and you know, in the thirties in Chicago, so 309 00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:51.839 you know, he had had some you know, positive aspects. 310 00:18:52.319 --> 00:19:01.480 So his family got together and and and they and 311 00:19:01.519 --> 00:19:04.599 they hired and fired lawyers like hopping cold running water. 312 00:19:05.319 --> 00:19:09.480 You know, they just went through the most famous lawyers. 313 00:19:09.880 --> 00:19:10.039 Right. 314 00:19:10.200 --> 00:19:13.119 Imagine you're a lawyer and you think you're hot stuff, 315 00:19:14.240 --> 00:19:18.480 and you you have a chance to get the job 316 00:19:19.119 --> 00:19:22.480 of getting a guy acquitted who shot somebody in cold 317 00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:25.559 blood on live television. Imagine if you're a lawyer, what 318 00:19:25.599 --> 00:19:30.200 a great challenge that is. So every famous lawyer in America, 319 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:32.799 you know, was going to wave their fee or they 320 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:36.759 or they whatever it was. And the Ruby family just 321 00:19:36.839 --> 00:19:39.319 hired and fired one after the other until Melvin bell 322 00:19:39.400 --> 00:19:42.759 I came along. And bell at that point was one 323 00:19:42.799 --> 00:19:45.119 of the most famous lawyers in America. And people say 324 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:47.240 he never tried a murder case. He actually had tried 325 00:19:47.240 --> 00:19:50.519 one murder case, but that's not his specialty. Also, he 326 00:19:50.599 --> 00:19:53.240 had the judge in the case had a long standing 327 00:19:53.279 --> 00:19:56.839 grudge against Bali, which is not not very not a 328 00:19:56.880 --> 00:20:00.960 good thing. But but he was the most famous lawyer 329 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:04.240 in America, and he talked a good game. And since 330 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:07.559 it was quite clear that Ruby had done that, the 331 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:10.839 question was what was a state of mind? And in 332 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:14.759 those days, in the state of take this. There were 333 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:18.440 you could get somebody acquitted of like a crime of passion, 334 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.039 it was unlikely that that would work with Ruby. So 335 00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:26.920 that so bell I came up with this experimental He 336 00:20:26.960 --> 00:20:29.319 didn't just say he was insane, right, I mean, it 337 00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:33.000 was basically insanity plea, but it was such a novel. 338 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:41.759 Untried to pardon the pun version of insanity called psychomotor epilepsy. 339 00:20:43.000 --> 00:20:47.759 And you know, I think bell I, I mean, for 340 00:20:47.960 --> 00:20:50.039 what bell I first tried to do was have the trial, 341 00:20:50.119 --> 00:20:52.839 the case thrown out, and you know, and just on 342 00:20:52.880 --> 00:20:54.640 the grounds that there was no way Ruby could get 343 00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:56.720 a fair trial in Dallas, because that's where it happened, 344 00:20:57.400 --> 00:21:00.240 and you know, sort of Dallas in the public just 345 00:21:00.599 --> 00:21:03.599 was what the whole city was induided in the both 346 00:21:03.599 --> 00:21:06.039 of the murder of Kennedy and the murder of Oswald, 347 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:09.519 you know, in guided in the public consciousness. So bell 348 00:21:09.599 --> 00:21:11.920 I tried every other thing he could, and you know, 349 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:15.039 and tried to pick right the jurors who would, uh 350 00:21:15.920 --> 00:21:19.000 who were who would give him a fair verdict or 351 00:21:19.039 --> 00:21:21.119 you know, or an acquittal or at least a very 352 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:25.079 an insanity vertic. But ultimately couldn't you know, they they 353 00:21:25.279 --> 00:21:28.400 the case, the judge would not declare mistra would not 354 00:21:28.440 --> 00:21:31.039 move the case because for the judge was a big 355 00:21:31.079 --> 00:21:33.799 deal too. Again, imagine the judge and the Jack Ruby case. 356 00:21:36.160 --> 00:21:38.799 So bell I tried the thing called psychomotor at a policy. 357 00:21:39.079 --> 00:21:42.319 Ruby had a history of mental illness, you know, the 358 00:21:42.400 --> 00:21:44.559 thing about both him and Oswald, there's no doubt they 359 00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:48.920 were not They both had long histories of erratic behavior 360 00:21:49.000 --> 00:21:52.200 and you know, and and psychiatric treatment. The question is 361 00:21:52.240 --> 00:21:55.799 with a loan notes. That's of course the big thing 362 00:21:55.880 --> 00:22:00.640 that people want to know. So it was, it was 363 00:22:00.839 --> 00:22:04.319 so I think ultimately bell I went with that defense, 364 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:08.279 and he brought in again just like the most famous 365 00:22:08.319 --> 00:22:11.000 lawyers wanted to be involved, the most famous psychiatrists wanted 366 00:22:11.039 --> 00:22:13.960 to be involved. So until the Chicago seven trial in 367 00:22:14.119 --> 00:22:17.440 nineteen seventy, this was probably the biggest circus trial. Well 368 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:19.680 one of the you know, maybe the scope was monkey trial, 369 00:22:20.480 --> 00:22:23.000 but aside from that, this was the biggest circus trial 370 00:22:23.000 --> 00:22:27.480 in American history. You know, Plus you had Jack Ruby, 371 00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:31.440 you know, giving impromptu press conferences at every break in 372 00:22:31.519 --> 00:22:37.319 the at every recess. So I think it was it 373 00:22:37.359 --> 00:22:39.440 was a long shot. It was show off. He on 374 00:22:40.039 --> 00:22:43.799 Belly's part. Probably his ego got the better of him, 375 00:22:43.960 --> 00:22:47.480 you know, because the jury ended up convicting Ruby in 376 00:22:47.559 --> 00:22:50.079 like two and a half hours. And I think they 377 00:22:50.200 --> 00:22:52.400 just I think they really convicted in a much shorter time, 378 00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:54.599 but they thought, just for the sake of appearances, they 379 00:22:54.599 --> 00:22:57.039 should wait at least a couple of hours. 380 00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:57.000 You know. 381 00:22:57.039 --> 00:22:59.680 And it wasn't you know that it was actually a 382 00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:01.440 group of very you know, people say, oh, it was 383 00:23:01.440 --> 00:23:04.200 the Dallas jury. Dallas was a big city, and and 384 00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:08.519 there was some very intelligence sophisticated people on the on 385 00:23:08.680 --> 00:23:11.359 the on the jury, but they just bell I did 386 00:23:11.400 --> 00:23:12.400 not make his case. 387 00:23:12.440 --> 00:23:15.799 As you were alluding to. Jack Ruby born Jacob Rubinstein 388 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:18.559 comes across as a self styled defender of Jews against 389 00:23:18.599 --> 00:23:21.079 anti Semitism. Can you tell us a little more about that? 390 00:23:21.480 --> 00:23:25.640 Well, I mean, Ruby grew up in the Maxwell Street 391 00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:30.480 ghetto of Chicago that also produced in the same era 392 00:23:30.839 --> 00:23:35.480 Benny Goodman, william S. Paley, who founded CBS Chief Justice 393 00:23:35.559 --> 00:23:38.519 Arthur Goldberg. You know, it's sort of a classic kind 394 00:23:38.519 --> 00:23:45.240 of you know, Jewish ghetto assimilation, escape the ghetto store, 395 00:23:46.119 --> 00:23:50.400 you know, and and Ruguby with his best friend growing 396 00:23:50.480 --> 00:23:54.640 up was a boxer named Barney Ross who was actually 397 00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:57.079 studying to be a rabbi till his father was murdered 398 00:23:57.079 --> 00:23:59.839 in a hold up. It's kind of like the Batman's 399 00:24:00.519 --> 00:24:03.160 so Ruby. If you look at any video Ruby, or 400 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.480 the video Ruby shooting Oswald. He the person he's reminiscent of, 401 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:09.920