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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK every week,
Speaker 7: another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history True Murder with your host
Speaker 7: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 8: In March nineteen seventy six, Ted Bundy was convicted of
Speaker 8: the aggravated kidnapping of a young woman near Salt Lake City.
Speaker 8: Bundy had not been accused or convicted of any violent
Speaker 8: crime except this one. No one knew how many women
Speaker 8: Bundy had murdered, and many thought him incapable of doing so.
Speaker 8: Doctor al Carlyle was part of the ninety day diagnostic
Speaker 8: team at the Utah State Prison when Bundy was sent
Speaker 8: there after the trial. Doctor Carlyle's assignment was specific determined
Speaker 8: to the best of his ability, without being biased by
Speaker 8: any of the reports previously done, whether Ted Bundy had
Speaker 8: a violent personality. The judge would use this information in
Speaker 8: deciding whether Bundy should serve time or be released on probation.
Speaker 8: In Violent Mind, the nineteen seventy six psychological Evaluation of
Speaker 8: Ted Bundy, doctor Carlyle takes the reader's step by step
Speaker 8: through this previously unpublished evaluation process and shows how he
Speaker 8: concluded that Bundy had the capacity to commit aggravated kidnapping,
Speaker 8: and perhaps much worse. Violent Mind contains never before seen
Speaker 8: interviews with Ted Bundy and those who knew him, including
Speaker 8: a letter Bundy wrote to doctor Carlyle that has been
Speaker 8: locked away for more than forty years. The book they
Speaker 8: were featuring this even is Violent Mind, The nineteen seventy
Speaker 8: six Psychological Assessment of Ted Bundy, with my guest journalist
Speaker 8: and author, doctor al Carlyle. Welcome to the program, and
Speaker 8: thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Doctor
Speaker 8: al Carlyle. Thank you, thank you very much. Incredible book,
Speaker 8: and I'm sure as a result of an incredible interview about,
Speaker 8: of course, Ted Bundy.
Speaker 3: The infamous Thank you.
Speaker 8: You talk about this ninety day diagnostic in the beginning
Speaker 8: of your book, The ninety Day Diagnostic and Evaluation Unit,
Speaker 8: March nineteen seventy six, and you were in your late
Speaker 8: thirties a psychologist for the Utah Department of Corrections. Tell
Speaker 8: us a little bit about how you came to be
Speaker 8: part of this committee and what your role and your
Speaker 8: obligations were in this at the Utah State Prison.
Speaker 3: Okay, it was a section within the prison where if
Speaker 3: a judge found a person guilty that there was some
Speaker 3: question of whether or not this person needed to have
Speaker 3: a hard number within the prison, or if he could
Speaker 3: benefit and treatment on probation or in a halfway out
Speaker 3: something like that. And so Judge Stewart Hanson, who had
Speaker 3: tried the case and found Ted guilty, was receiving a
Speaker 3: lot of conflicting information. There were a lot of people
Speaker 3: from the Northwest and even some local people who said
Speaker 3: that Ted was a likable person. He was in law
Speaker 3: school at the University of Utah Law School program, and
Speaker 3: people liked him, and so he was sent out to
Speaker 3: our program. I had been working at this day prison
Speaker 3: since about sixty seven, and at that time I was
Speaker 3: the psychologist with the ninety day unit, and so it
Speaker 3: fell upon me to do this evaluation. And at that
Speaker 3: point that we had a psychiatrist, doctor Van Austin, just
Speaker 3: a fantastic guy since deceased, but he was really good.
Speaker 3: And so he did an evaluation of Ted. And there
Speaker 3: was a ninety day evaluation program that Donald Hull had
Speaker 3: done which was very thorough and very good, and he
Speaker 3: found mixed results. And there was a psychological assessment that
Speaker 3: was done on him, this by doctor Evan Lewis who
Speaker 3: said he thought Ted was holding back. There are so
Speaker 3: many things he thought might be going on, but he
Speaker 3: couldn't delineate that because Ted didn't open up. And doctor
Speaker 3: Van Austin, a psychiatrist, said basically the same thing and
Speaker 3: so and Ted had taken and some psychological tests and
Speaker 3: came out looking clean on him, and so there was
Speaker 3: readly nothing showing up. So I felt my job then
Speaker 3: was in my psychological evaluation. I wanted to do something
Speaker 3: that was different, a little different, an extended part. So
Speaker 3: I interviewed him for about twenty hours and called a
Speaker 3: number of people who knew him, old girlfriends and his
Speaker 3: mother and you know, just a number of people. And
Speaker 3: some said, yeah, he's a wonderful guy. He couldn't have
Speaker 3: he couldn't harm anyone. And others say, hey, there's a
Speaker 3: different side to this guy. And so when I put
Speaker 3: all of that together and got a pretty thoroughly evaluate,
Speaker 3: pretous throw interview from Ted about his childhood, I felt
Speaker 3: that there was a gradual movement throughout those years, beginning
Speaker 3: in his childhood, and then things happen in his teenage
Speaker 3: years and such that I came up at the conclusion
Speaker 3: that I think Ted is a violent person, and so
Speaker 3: that was my part.
Speaker 8: In your first impressions of Ted and how he approached
Speaker 8: you and what your first impression was, especially considering the
Speaker 8: charges that were against him, before we talk about the
Speaker 8: specific tests that you used to determine this, and then
Speaker 8: we can talk about his actual childhood. Did you say
Speaker 8: that shaped him into the person he became. So let's
Speaker 8: first talk about that first meeting with him and your
Speaker 8: impressions with him, and how what was his personality like
Speaker 8: at first glance?
Speaker 3: Very interesting because on one hand he had been found
Speaker 3: guilty of attempted abduction of Cheryl Deange and he was
Speaker 3: possibly going to kill her. But on the other hand,
Speaker 3: he had worked in political campaigns and the prison is
Speaker 3: set up in such a way he would be let
Speaker 3: out of his cell and then he would come down.
Speaker 3: He knew her My office words was, which was in
Speaker 3: the corridor of the prison. As you come in the prison,
Speaker 3: you go through two gates to get in, and so
Speaker 3: he was just walking down, walking towards me, and he was,
Speaker 3: even though he's in prison outfit. He was dressed night late,
Speaker 3: nice league, clean cut. He just looked good and he
Speaker 3: had a smile in his face. He walked towards me,
Speaker 3: something similar to if I'm going to buy a car
Speaker 3: and the salesman walks up to me with a smile
Speaker 3: on his face and extends his hand and says, Hi,
Speaker 3: I'm Ted Bundy. You must be doctor Carlyle. And I
Speaker 3: was impressed because you generally don't get that approach from
Speaker 3: a person who's going to be going through a psychological
Speaker 3: assessment on a violent crime when the outcome could be
Speaker 3: he's going to be sends to prison. So and sitting
Speaker 3: down talking to him, he was friendly, He spoke easily,
Speaker 3: although at times I felt that what he said was rehearsed.
Speaker 3: But he was very easy to talk to. And the
Speaker 3: times I knew him after that, after he came to
Speaker 3: prison and was a hard number, and we had some
Speaker 3: more visits, and when he escaped from jail in Colorado
Speaker 3: and got caught and put in another jail, and he
Speaker 3: called me and we talked and again just very friendly,
Speaker 3: just easy to talk to. So yeah, there's very definitely
Speaker 3: two sides of Ted Bundy. And it was a fascinating,
Speaker 3: fascinating case.
Speaker 8: Now you write that you didn't read the Dead Bundy
Speaker 8: file in depth, but you skimmed it because he wanted
Speaker 8: to have no bias previous to these interviews.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so how much I.
Speaker 8: Go ahead, go ahead, explain how you could not look
Speaker 8: at this and not have any bias. How much did
Speaker 8: you well know at that time?
Speaker 3: Yeah. Generally, when I sit down with the person the
Speaker 3: first time for an evaluation, I like to do a
Speaker 3: cold That is, I want to see what I see.
Speaker 3: I want to explore the like in the criminal. I
Speaker 3: want to explore the crime, and I want to get
Speaker 3: the person's view, his statement about what he did and
Speaker 3: why he did and all that type of thing. And
Speaker 3: then I signed some psychological tests for the person to do,
Speaker 3: and then we get together for other meetings after that.
Speaker 3: But so little by little, I want to come up
Speaker 3: with my own opinion of what this person's like. So
Speaker 3: I had the precentered investigation done hull, and I went
Speaker 3: through the crime, and I skimmed through other parts of it,
Speaker 3: you know, some things on history, and he had some
Speaker 3: testimonies and some people and such in there, and I
Speaker 3: just skimmed through that, and so I got a little
Speaker 3: bit of an idea of what was seen. I wanted.
Speaker 3: I wanted to look at ted from a fresh views,
Speaker 3: so to speak. You know, I had been told that
Speaker 3: he see the m MPI Multiphaised Personality Inventory. The m
Speaker 3: MPI is one of the most popular and common tests
Speaker 3: used for personality, and I had understood that he had
Speaker 3: taken that and he came out real clean. So so
Speaker 3: I like to look at it from a fresh view,
Speaker 3: with only a hint of what has gone on except
Speaker 3: the crime. I get in detail, but I want to
Speaker 3: see the person as I see the person, and not
Speaker 3: as what others have seen. Then I compare it after that,
Speaker 3: go back more in depth and see what others have seen,
Speaker 3: and see how that compares with what I saw.
Speaker 8: With Ted and his as you write it seems to
Speaker 8: parent everybody. He's very intelligent or intelligent. And given that intelligence,
Speaker 8: when you mentioned the term clean to the Minnesota Multi
Speaker 8: Phasic Personality Test the MMBI, what did you mean by
Speaker 8: that and what could Ted's intelligence enable him to do
Speaker 8: when he was tested? In your mind?
Speaker 3: Okay, by clean means the way I use it, he
Speaker 3: didn't show a lot of pathology, like his depression scores
Speaker 3: were low, anxiety was low, anger low, and we gave
Speaker 3: him a test have to prison Bipolar Personality Inventory, which
Speaker 3: is a different one. He had never taken that one before,
Speaker 3: and it had a lot of the same categories, and
Speaker 3: he came out very low in those, that is, and
Speaker 3: this was one of the red flags where I think
Speaker 3: that he he over himself. His anxiety score was way down,
Speaker 3: near the bottom. Low, nothing, no depression, no anger, and
Speaker 3: everything looked good. In fact, it looked better than the
Speaker 3: average person would look. And it just it it didn't
Speaker 3: fit because here's a guy kid, if he was innocent,
Speaker 3: if he was innocent, and he is going to this evaluation,
Speaker 3: and it along with the psychiatric report and the report
Speaker 3: from the caseworker and such if if if he showed
Speaker 3: up with some pathology, it would really increase the chances
Speaker 3: of being committed to the prison. So he's scoring so low,
Speaker 3: and it's like it doesn't fit a kid who comes
Speaker 3: in like this and he's been kicked out of law school,
Speaker 3: so to speak, and everyone's questioning him and everyone's confused
Speaker 3: over him, and he has lost the possibility of the
Speaker 3: type of love of future and career he wanted, and
Speaker 3: yet he's showing that he has no anxiety, no depression,
Speaker 3: no anger, and everything is just just fine. It's almost
Speaker 3: like here I am. I'm very happy, and these things
Speaker 3: don't bother me at all. And being intelligent, Okay, that's
Speaker 3: a combination of a couple of things. One his IQ
Speaker 3: came up to in the one hundred and twenties and
Speaker 3: which is superior. But in addition to the IQ, he
Speaker 3: had the bags from college. He had his work in
Speaker 3: the political campaigns, and so he had he had had
Speaker 3: a chance to develop a political personality, if there is
Speaker 3: really such a thing, and had interacted with a lot
Speaker 3: of people over the years, and so he had learned
Speaker 3: to present himself very well in a very intelligent manner.
Speaker 3: And I believe that he practiced a lot of forethought
Speaker 3: of what he was going to say. So at times
Speaker 3: when I asked him something that he hadn't thought of,
Speaker 3: he hummed, and Hawden had a more difficult time answering it.
Speaker 3: But yeah, being intelligent, he was able not only to
Speaker 3: pull off the crimes not get caught except for the
Speaker 3: Jodge and then in Florida, he was able to convince people,
Speaker 3: a lot of people that he really didn't he didn't
Speaker 3: do anything.
Speaker 8: You talk about other tests, sorry, you talk about other
Speaker 8: tests like the two word incomplete sentences test, twist and
Speaker 8: you talk about you were not as interested in the
Speaker 8: individual answers, but rather the patterns across the answers. Can
Speaker 8: you include this test? Tell us us, for example, briefly
Speaker 8: what you could determine what you did determine from this
Speaker 8: type of test.
Speaker 3: This is a test where a person is given at
Speaker 3: the beginning of the sentence and he has to complete it.
Speaker 3: For example, I've never he put hurt anyone. I need
Speaker 3: he said freedom. I feel challenged, you know. But the
Speaker 3: analysis of it, even though he thinks he is putting
Speaker 3: a thingies to a sentence that is neutral or is fine,
Speaker 3: he says things like number twenty six when frustrated, I defensitize,
Speaker 3: and that one really triggered something. It just means that
Speaker 3: a lot of criminals they learn to desensitize to the
Speaker 3: crimes and to the guilt, so it just doesn't bother them.
Speaker 3: It bothers them less and less and less over time,
Speaker 3: because they've they've in essence, they've they've compartmentalized criminal stuff
Speaker 3: and that personality that can do that so easily, and
Speaker 3: they go back and forth between the two that they've
Speaker 3: desynthitized the guilt, you know, and I think most girls
Speaker 3: should be themselves and something. I'll be an attorney and
Speaker 3: you know, test like this or obligatory obtuse, you know. So, Yeah,
Speaker 3: in the book, I take some of the items individually,
Speaker 3: then I combine some of them to show that some
Speaker 3: of the items saying that I'm twenty three, he's fearful
Speaker 3: of not being loved, he wants happiness and peace, he
Speaker 3: wants caring people, you can't stop struggling. And I put
Speaker 3: those together in such a way that it creates hypotheses.
Speaker 3: It's not saying that this is absolute proof. It's saying
Speaker 3: these is suggesting some things which then I could explore
Speaker 3: more in the interview.
Speaker 8: Let's get to what I think everybody would find incredibly fascinating.
Speaker 8: The whole book is fascinating. But there are some things
Speaker 8: that have been said and reported and written about Ted Bundy,
Speaker 8: about his early childhood, and yet you had access to
Speaker 8: every single truthful bit of information, so we do get
Speaker 8: the real picture about Ted's early life and what Ted
Speaker 8: thought about his early life. And then you either corroborated
Speaker 8: or checked with other people in his life, crucial people
Speaker 8: in his life to check out that story. And it's
Speaker 8: interesting the conclusions as a result. So let's go back
Speaker 8: to when he was born and talk about his early
Speaker 8: childhood from his mother, Louise Cowell, and his early life
Speaker 8: moving around and illmgited, illegitimacy and that being an issue.
Speaker 8: Let's talk about his early life, his early childhood before
Speaker 8: we talk about high school and the changes did occur
Speaker 8: at that time.
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, his mother, Louise, she became pregnant and nobody
Speaker 3: really knows just who the father was. She'd never said
Speaker 3: and whether it was a one night stand with a
Speaker 3: military person or some people have said it might have
Speaker 3: been her father as such, but she never said. So
Speaker 3: she gets pregnant and it's extremely humiliating back in those
Speaker 3: days and nineteen forty six, I believe, just after the war.
Speaker 3: And so she goes to this home front with mother's
Speaker 3: in Vermont and she has Ted and then she comes
Speaker 3: back and so he has his two aunts and they
Speaker 3: seem when Ted in the interview, and this was a
Speaker 3: big part of it. It's like, who's Ted talk about?
Speaker 3: When he is expressing himself or giving information, he talks
Speaker 3: more about the two ads when he was living in
Speaker 3: Philadelphia than to his mother. And it doesn't prove anything,
Speaker 3: but again it just adds to the impression that it
Speaker 3: wasn't real good the relationship. And he supposedly was told
Speaker 3: that his mother was his sister, and we don't have
Speaker 3: anything about when he actually learned that his mother was
Speaker 3: his mother. You know, he never said anything about that.
Speaker 3: But he was illegitimate. He was never told he was.
Speaker 3: And so she goes up north and she marries John Bundy.
Speaker 3: Ted didn't get along with him very well. Other kids
Speaker 3: come in the home and so now Ted is the oldest,
Speaker 3: but he's not fitting in. It's a very religious family,
Speaker 3: and it seems like the social activities were largely centered
Speaker 3: around the church. And when he was young, and there's
Speaker 3: one place he had a couple of friends and he
Speaker 3: called themselves the Three Musketeers, and they lived somewhat close,
Speaker 3: but not real close. A mile was so away from
Speaker 3: each other. And then he moves to this other place
Speaker 3: and Ted one lady I talked to who lived on
Speaker 3: the same block as him, pretty much across the street.
Speaker 3: And in the evening as the kids would gathered around
Speaker 3: someone's porch and they would just talk like kids do,
Speaker 3: and then play games and things like that, like those
Speaker 3: old games kicked the can and run sheep, you run,
Speaker 3: and all those things are popular in those days. And
Speaker 3: I asked her, I says, well, what was he like?
Speaker 3: And she says, he was just ted. He didn't show
Speaker 3: any anger, He was shy. He was more of a listener.
Speaker 3: And Ted told me that he would listen to the radio.
Speaker 3: And back then we had Sky King and Tom Mix
Speaker 3: and Roy Rogers and all of those radio stations that
Speaker 3: we listened to every week because the serials were fascinating,
Speaker 3: you know, we couldn't wait till the next week, They're here,
Speaker 3: the next part. But he would listen to those. But
Speaker 3: the big thing was he would also listen to political talks.
Speaker 3: And he said, spontaneously listen to political speeches, and he
Speaker 3: would memorize parts of them. Well, when he was in
Speaker 3: elementary school, he wanted to be at the top of
Speaker 3: the spelling group and he wasn't and he said he
Speaker 3: was humiliated by that. And again you have one of
Speaker 3: those words that says something beyond what I think he
Speaker 3: was trying to say, the saying he was humiliated. And
Speaker 3: you put all that together and with what this lady said,
Speaker 3: Jed was just a very lonely boy. He was shy.
Speaker 3: He just didn't sit in so a lonely boy reaches
Speaker 3: out for something. And when he got into early teens
Speaker 3: twelve thirteen years old and that period, and I said
Speaker 3: to him, said, Ted, did you ever go out with
Speaker 3: some girls that associate with him? Says yes? Did you
Speaker 3: ever kiss a girl?
Speaker 7: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yes, did you ever? Pat just get kind of mildly
Speaker 3: sexually active with him, and he says, yeah. I sold
Speaker 3: Ted what happened because before, when you're in junior high,
Speaker 3: you're starting to do those things, you're showing your real
Speaker 3: interest in girls, and then it suddenly stops and you
Speaker 3: don't do anything until you go on a date to
Speaker 3: a school dance when you're a senior. And this is
Speaker 3: one of the things where I think he was caught
Speaker 3: off guard. He sold gi L, I don't know what
Speaker 3: it could have been, you know, And that's like, whoops,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, there's a lot more to this story
Speaker 3: than what he's saying. So as a child, then before
Speaker 3: high school, he was lonely. He friends in the neighborhood,
Speaker 3: but then in junior high and spasically high school, they
Speaker 3: all got involved in other things and Ted didn't, and
Speaker 3: he was left out. And now was his childhood.
Speaker 8: Now you talk about backing this up with speaking with
Speaker 8: people about his early childhood. Let's go to his teenage life.
Speaker 8: And again you all along this process think that he's
Speaker 8: at least being evasive and not being completely truthful. And
Speaker 8: all these tests depend on the subject being truthful. So
Speaker 8: you talk about and ask him about his teenage life,
Speaker 8: and then later go ask people about that and talk
Speaker 8: to some very very interesting people, and you start talking
Speaker 8: to his girlfriends as well. Before we talk about college,
Speaker 8: let's talk about high school and what Ted had to
Speaker 8: say about high school and what other people have to
Speaker 8: say about some of the things and some of his
Speaker 8: personality in high school.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, Ted said that he wasn't interested in social activities
Speaker 3: because he focused on school. Now, Ted was a Bee
Speaker 3: student and he was quite intelligent, so you know, he
Speaker 3: didn't just focus on school. And he had a Payper
Speaker 3: realm and a little girl team up missing, you know,
Speaker 3: and Marie Burr and I had known about that. You know,
Speaker 3: she was it was August thirteenth and she was eight
Speaker 3: years old and someone took her or talked her out
Speaker 3: of her house and she was never seen again. And
Speaker 3: Dick Larson, who was the associate editor of these Saddle Times,
Speaker 3: we talked about this and he said, you know, he says,
Speaker 3: that was one of the biggest events that had ever
Speaker 3: happened in that area, in that town. He says, everybody
Speaker 3: was searching for her, the fleets, the townspeople, they were
Speaker 3: dragging the rivers, they were looking and was they were
Speaker 3: looking everywhere for this girl. And I asked, I said
Speaker 3: he Ted was fourteen at the time. And I said, Ted,
Speaker 3: tell me about this this young girl that disappeared. And
Speaker 3: he said he didn't know anything about it. Yeah, And
Speaker 3: I said, because then I followed up with a question,
Speaker 3: but Ted, how could you not have known about it?
Speaker 3: Because the townspeople, it was discussion over breakfast dearer meals,
Speaker 3: all the kids in school were talking about it, and
Speaker 3: you didn't know anything about it, about it happening that
Speaker 3: it happened. And he says, he was just involved in
Speaker 3: school activities and too busy doing that. And so I thought, whoops,
Speaker 3: wait a minute, that is a real red flag. And
Speaker 3: then when he was having a discussion that he was
Speaker 3: For a while there, they lived with his mother's brother,
Speaker 3: uncle Jack, and uncle Jack was professor of music at
Speaker 3: the University of Fust's son and his aunt Eleanor, he said,
Speaker 3: was very intelligent, very sophisticated, a frail and his cousin John,
Speaker 3: and they would have these little well in wrestling and
Speaker 3: John would win. And then they were talking about their
Speaker 3: future and John said, according to Ted, John was going
Speaker 3: to go to York and was going to go to
Speaker 3: a major university and dry the night's expensive car around,
Speaker 3: you know, just kids bragging. And Ted said, well, I'm
Speaker 3: going to do the same thing, and John says, no,
Speaker 3: you're not. He says, yes I am, and John says no.
Speaker 3: One says I'm like, why why do you think that?
Speaker 3: And he's John says, because you're illegitimate. Ted never heard that.
Speaker 3: He had no idea about that. So here you have
Speaker 3: in his early teens, he is still lonely. And we
Speaker 3: know that later on wings down Florida to talked about
Speaker 3: the window peeking and about the pornography and such, so
Speaker 3: we know he was really into that. But I didn't
Speaker 3: have any evidence of that at the time when I
Speaker 3: was doing my evaluation. No, And one of the things
Speaker 3: I did pick up, like he was standing and in
Speaker 3: the hallway in school with his friend and another kid
Speaker 3: comes up and says to their friend, Hey, how would
Speaker 3: you like to do something tonight? Yeah, he goes, yeah, sure,
Speaker 3: and kid didn't mean look at Ted didn't ask him.
Speaker 3: And so this was one of the things that Ted experienced,
Speaker 3: just that not fitting in, not being one of the people.
Speaker 3: And so throughout his high school years we still have
Speaker 3: a very lonely kid who just doesn't fit in until
Speaker 3: he becomes a senior. And it may have occurred to
Speaker 3: some degree during the winter of his junior but when
Speaker 3: he became a senior and he was working in the
Speaker 3: high school political campaigns to get a couple of BIS
Speaker 3: friends help them get elected school buddy student body offenses,
Speaker 3: and so then we get into that major event with
Speaker 3: skiing when he became a senior.
Speaker 8: You talk about the skiing in that also that he
Speaker 8: finally found something. He was with the student body elections,
Speaker 8: like you say, and then he would go skiing with
Speaker 8: these guys and he was finally fitting in. He was
Speaker 8: one of the guys. But you say that that had
Speaker 8: and an off side to it too, and had a
Speaker 8: downside to it, So tell us what that was. And
Speaker 8: this seemed to be a big theme in a lot
Speaker 8: of the interviews and the things that Bundy said as well.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I think it was because he was doing
Speaker 3: campaigning for these guys. He didn't have an automobile, the
Speaker 3: family was poor, and they invited him to go skiing.
Speaker 3: Now Ted had learned to ski. He had a little
Speaker 3: business cutting lawns and saved up some money and he
Speaker 3: got him some skis and the outfit and that type
Speaker 3: of thing. But he went up there on the slopes
Speaker 3: and here he is with these guys who are popular
Speaker 3: in school, and he is up there one of them.
Speaker 3: And he was good at skiing. And I'm not sure
Speaker 3: just where he learned to be good at, but he
Speaker 3: was good at skiing, and he was one of them,
Speaker 3: and he could laugh and he could joke, and in fact,
Speaker 3: he took some of the passes, their ski passes, and
Speaker 3: he was able to changed the date so they could
Speaker 3: go skiing the next day or on another day using
Speaker 3: the same past and they wouldn't have to pay for it.
Speaker 3: And Ted was quite proud of this, and he told
Speaker 3: me this himself. But then they came home and the
Speaker 3: guys would go with their girlfriends to the dances, that
Speaker 3: night and Ted would go home alone and he would
Speaker 3: just shoot baskets in his yard or just you know,
Speaker 3: whatever he was doing. But he was alone. So on
Speaker 3: one hand, he was in. He was one of the boys.
Speaker 3: And Ted told me, he said what he wanted as
Speaker 3: he was a a student in high school, junior senior.
Speaker 3: He says, what he wanted was to have a college
Speaker 3: degree and a beautiful co ed and he said it
Speaker 3: just like that, a beautiful co ed. So you know,
Speaker 3: Ted wanted something and he was one and but he
Speaker 3: fit in so well, then he come home and he's
Speaker 3: all alone and the guys are out having fun. And
Speaker 3: then they did this throughout the winner in their skiing trips,
Speaker 3: that each time it was a happy occasion followed by
Speaker 3: rejection not fitting in.
Speaker 8: You continue with this, and you talk about Ted graduating
Speaker 8: high school in nineteen sixty five with a B average,
Speaker 8: And you say, though, he managed to get a scholarship
Speaker 8: to the University of Puget Sound and he started taking courses,
Speaker 8: but soon became dissatisfied because he said he had no
Speaker 8: social life. So tell us about what he talks about
Speaker 8: when he says he about the scholarship in the university
Speaker 8: of Puget Sound. Again, this is again demonstrative of a
Speaker 8: pattern with him. But what does he say to that
Speaker 8: Why he became so dissatisfied so soon.
Speaker 3: Well, he felt that they were too involved with sororities
Speaker 3: and fraternities. And Ted said he just wasn't that interested
Speaker 3: in that. But I think that's one of the tedisms
Speaker 3: he might say. I think he really was. I mean,
Speaker 3: after all, he wanted a beautiful co ed, but he
Speaker 3: didn't have any money. He got him a job, then
Speaker 3: finally got him a car, but he didn't fit in.
Speaker 3: He didn't have the money. And he went to the
Speaker 3: universe of Puget Sound because he said his home was
Speaker 3: close to the college, and since he didn't have a car,
Speaker 3: and I'm not sure if his uncle was still a
Speaker 3: professor there at the time, you know, maybe got rights
Speaker 3: to college. But so he went there, but he didn't
Speaker 3: fit in. And he he said, it wasn't that big
Speaker 3: of a deal yet to a lonely boy who wants
Speaker 3: a beautiful co ed and who has experienced being one
Speaker 3: of the boys on the skiing trips, and now he's
Speaker 3: more alone because the other kids have gone off to
Speaker 3: other colleges. His friends have and he goes to UPS.
Speaker 3: So I think that was a real, real downer for him.
Speaker 3: So then for a sophomore year, he goes over to
Speaker 3: University Washington and he I think he gets involved in
Speaker 3: some political activities during the summer before going to University
Speaker 3: of Washington.
Speaker 8: You talk about also that he becomes interested in foreign
Speaker 8: affairs and he has opinions about the US government not
Speaker 8: dealing justly with China, and he wanted to pursue a
Speaker 8: diplomatic position with government. And you say that there was
Speaker 8: more to it than just some benevolent motive on his part.
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Speaker 3: Al.
Speaker 8: We were just about to talk and introduce one of
Speaker 8: the most Maine, one of the major characters in this
Speaker 8: incredible story, and you talk about that during Spring quarter
Speaker 8: at the University of Washington. He met a woman you
Speaker 8: call Marjorie are going as an alias, but others have
Speaker 8: used have called her Stephanie, and you talk about who
Speaker 8: she was, And why don't you talk about Marjorie and
Speaker 8: how Ted met her, this very most important person in
Speaker 8: the story and Ted's life.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, I think he met her on the skate blogs. Anyway,
Speaker 3: they started a conversations and she was impressed with him,
Speaker 3: and he was impressed with her. Now, one of the
Speaker 3: things about Ted at this time, his goal for the
Speaker 3: future was to work in politics also to make a
Speaker 3: lot of money. So if he was over in China
Speaker 3: and was working for the government, then he could do
Speaker 3: governmental things to help re establish relationship between China and America,
Speaker 3: and he could also get involved in money making things.
Speaker 3: And he was concerned about what happened in Watts and
Speaker 3: Ted throughout his career without the time he was free.
Speaker 3: And the different people I talked to him talked to
Speaker 3: them about him. They said that he did seem to
Speaker 3: want to help the poor and the people who were
Speaker 3: oppressed in some way. But so he always had this
Speaker 3: and so he's going to go out in Chinese studies
Speaker 3: and when he's in University of Washington. He starts that
Speaker 3: and he's going with Marjorie, and he was very impressed.
Speaker 3: Now she is a major turning factor in his whole life.
Speaker 3: And I need to stress that she did not do
Speaker 3: anything wrong. Marjorie was a good person. She came from
Speaker 3: a wealthy family. Her father was the CEO of an
Speaker 3: international business. And so she was looking, I think, for
Speaker 3: someone who was similar to her father, who had dreams
Speaker 3: about the future, who some goals of what they wanted
Speaker 3: to do in life, and they were motivated to do
Speaker 3: something about it. And she saw sad this and Ted.
Speaker 3: Now the problem.
Speaker 8: Was this.
Speaker 3: Ted would say the right things, He made an impression.
Speaker 3: He was able to convince her that he was the
Speaker 3: one she was looking for. But the problem was the
Speaker 3: other side of Ted was lonely, insecure, very shy. And
Speaker 3: it started out very well at first, but then she
Speaker 3: began to find that he would not stand up for himself,
Speaker 3: he would capt out of her.
Speaker 8: And she.
Speaker 3: Lost respect for him because he was this way. And
Speaker 3: so Ted after a year at the univers University of Washington,
Speaker 3: he went to Palabo, California in Stamford to major take
Speaker 3: some classes in Chinese Chinese study and ask him what
Speaker 3: he thought about him, and that was a wonderful time
Speaker 3: for him.
Speaker 8: He said, it was.
Speaker 3: Warm, the campus was beautiful, well, the professors knew what
Speaker 3: they were talking about, and they had the ability that
Speaker 3: information over in such a way that he said he
Speaker 3: really enjoyed going to classes. Now. Marjorie at this time,
Speaker 3: was still up in Washington. She was going to school
Speaker 3: up there to finish out some classes she needed to graduate.
Speaker 8: And so.
Speaker 3: She started becoming disappointed with Ted and began to cut
Speaker 3: it off slowly in letters, and finally then she told
Speaker 3: him that he just wasn't the one she was looking
Speaker 3: for right now. That she's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 3: i'lready be friends with you, but I'm not really ready
Speaker 3: to get real serious with anyone.
Speaker 1: Now.
Speaker 3: They would sleep together, and Ted told me this, and
Speaker 3: Marjorie confirmed it when I asked her. They were sleep together,
Speaker 3: but they wouldn't actually have sex, just a lot of petting.
Speaker 3: And Marjorie said she just wasn't ready for that yet.
Speaker 3: And I asked her if she ever thought that Ted
Speaker 3: got frustrated with that, and she says, well, yeah, I'm
Speaker 3: sure he did. But then see, and the problem was,
Speaker 3: you've gotten extremely shy, lonely boy who has suddenly found
Speaker 3: the ideal person that he he wants to be with
Speaker 3: and wants to marry, and and she breaks it off,
Speaker 3: and he has put all of his marbles in one basket.
Speaker 8: And so.
Speaker 3: A shy, sensitive kid like that, any indication of a
Speaker 3: breakup or of rejection or of a loss of interest
Speaker 3: by his loved partner is extremely traumatic. And ted fell
Speaker 3: apart so bad that he dropped his classes. He didn't
Speaker 3: take the final exams. He just left school. And then
Speaker 3: he went back up University of Washington, and she had
Speaker 3: in the fall, she's come down, had finished out come
Speaker 3: down in California, and he tried going to school that fall,
Speaker 3: but he couldn't. He couldn't focus, he couldn't settle down.
Speaker 3: He was stressed, he was depressed. He was literally falling apart.
Speaker 3: So he didn't complete his semester there and in January,
Speaker 3: that's when he had to leave. They are Yeah, and
Speaker 3: went back to Philadelphia and spent time with his grandparents.
Speaker 3: And that's when he went up to Vermont and got
Speaker 3: a look at his birth certificate because his cousin had
Speaker 3: already showed it to him, and he said, my father
Speaker 3: but he went up there to check it out and
Speaker 3: found that it was real. No father, and he started
Speaker 3: spending time in New York and some of the girly places.
Speaker 3: So he was really getting heavy into a lot of
Speaker 3: pornography by then. And then he came back and worked
Speaker 3: in a political campaign and that was short, but he
Speaker 3: was a driver at the time, and he loved that,
Speaker 3: and he said that he could give the candidate some
Speaker 3: advice and read some good speeches and things like that.
Speaker 3: But again he was fitting in, but as a candidate
Speaker 3: didn't get elected, so he had to leave again, went back.
Speaker 1: And.
Speaker 3: This time.
Speaker 6: He in.
Speaker 3: Memorial Day of nineteen sixty nine, he killed his three
Speaker 3: two first two victims, he got them from from the beach,
Speaker 3: and I think he said he was transporting a car
Speaker 3: across from that area back to San Francisco, and so
Speaker 3: I guess as he got him in the car and
Speaker 3: then hold off some area where he had them captive,
Speaker 3: and went ahead and raped and and he killed them both.
Speaker 3: And then he left there and went to San Francisco,
Speaker 3: where he had some talks with Marjorie. Again she thought
Speaker 3: this whole time, and Marjorie did not totally break up
Speaker 3: contact and Marjorie would say that. At times when she
Speaker 3: just wanted to talk and or she wanted to get
Speaker 3: some advice about something, she called Ted, and Ted periodically
Speaker 3: would call her to see how she was doing. So
Speaker 3: he went back there and he visited a little bit.
Speaker 3: Then he went back up too, to Washington, where he
Speaker 3: was now planning to go to school. And then you
Speaker 3: met Liz.
Speaker 8: That star you talk about, Yeah, sorry, you you talk
Speaker 8: about him meeting Liz Kendall in fall sixty nine and
Speaker 8: doing his first murders, double murder in sixty nine, and
Speaker 8: she had a three year old daughter, and he stayed
Speaker 8: out her place for weeks at a time, and she
Speaker 8: talks about it being an intense relationship. Tell us about
Speaker 8: this relationship according to Ted, and then maybe according to Liz.
Speaker 3: Okay, according to Ted, he became enamored by her. And
Speaker 3: I think a lot of it was because she was
Speaker 3: very accepting of him. She was divorced with this girl
Speaker 3: and her parents were in Utah in the general Slake area,
Speaker 3: and but he was in the Sandpiper and she was
Speaker 3: with some other other people at the time, and they
Speaker 3: noticed each other and they danced a little bit, and
Speaker 3: they drank and.
Speaker 1: Then she.
Speaker 3: She said, this is a little later on in her book.
Speaker 3: She said he was dressed better than the other students
Speaker 3: who were there, and that he said writing a book
Speaker 3: on Vietnam, had come from the East, and he's going
Speaker 3: to go to.
Speaker 8: Law school.
Speaker 3: And he didn't say that he hadn't dratched with he
Speaker 3: college yet, he had two more years of college. And
Speaker 3: he didn't tell her that, you know, and all of that.
Speaker 3: But so he took her afterwards, he took her to
Speaker 3: pick up her daughter from the babysitter and went home
Speaker 3: to her apartment and he stayed there that night, and
Speaker 3: he didn't try to have sex with her. And he
Speaker 3: enjoyed the relationship, and he said that and would spend
Speaker 3: much of his time over at her apartment and would
Speaker 3: sleep overnight. And to him, it was just a very
Speaker 3: very nice relationship. He was very pleased with it. He
Speaker 3: was happy with her. He talked about winter came and
Speaker 3: she wanted him to come down to Utah to visit
Speaker 3: her parents. And he came down and he said he
Speaker 3: enjoyed being here, enjoyed talking to her mother and her father,
Speaker 3: and he just felt very good. But the problem began
Speaker 3: when she started talking about getting married, and he mentioned
Speaker 3: they went and got a marriage license and he wasn't
Speaker 3: ready to get married. Of course, he couldn't get married.
Speaker 3: I mean, I think he's doing a lot of sexual
Speaker 3: prowling at night, so he couldn't marry her. And he
Speaker 3: couldn't stay in her place all the time permanently, he
Speaker 3: couldn't give up his apartment. But when she wanted to
Speaker 3: get married, and she pushed it and kept trying to
Speaker 3: get him to get married, he got angry at her
Speaker 3: at one time. And I don't know if it was
Speaker 3: he stold me or if she said that her parents
Speaker 3: were going to come up and she wanted him to
Speaker 3: take his clothes out of her closet, and he got
Speaker 3: angry at her, and he tore up the marriage license
Speaker 3: and and but they didn't break up, you know. And
Speaker 3: he kept telling kept telling her that it was going
Speaker 3: to go to law school, that the ups and finally
Speaker 3: she checked and learned that no, he wasn't a registered
Speaker 3: he hadn't been applied. And he told me that, he says.
Speaker 3: Then he told her that he hadn't graduated from college.
Speaker 3: And an interesting thing about him was when he would
Speaker 3: tell her something like that, he didn't seem to do
Speaker 3: it with an air of anger. It was more of,
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sorry I didn't tell you, and if
Speaker 3: if you don't want to continue our relationship, I didn't understand,
Speaker 3: you know, he was contrite in that way. But then
Speaker 3: she wanted to continue with the relationship, so she said
Speaker 3: she'd helped put him through college, and she did. And
Speaker 3: then there was a couple other things next spring, and
Speaker 3: he really got angry at her a couple of times.
Speaker 3: I think she wanted to make him jealous, and she
Speaker 3: went out with the guy and Ted followed them, or
Speaker 3: he saw that he was outside the restaurant, and he
Speaker 3: he went home and he wrote her a long letter
Speaker 3: telling her how much he needed her. But he really
Speaker 3: got hurt by them that and then following the spring,
Speaker 3: I believe it was that she again wanted to make
Speaker 3: him jealous, and she agreed to go on a catamaran
Speaker 3: trip with the guy and she would just help him
Speaker 3: with it with his boat, and he got very angry.
Speaker 3: And this was one of the times when he paused me.
Speaker 3: He looked at me and he said that that was
Speaker 3: the last straw. And the important thing about that during
Speaker 3: our interview was that he seemed to look through me.
Speaker 3: It was as though he was looking past and into
Speaker 3: the past, passed me and into the past, like he
Speaker 3: was reliving that again. At least now that was just
Speaker 3: my impression at that time. But he was angry. He
Speaker 3: was really really angry at that point where he says
Speaker 3: that was the last straw. And but they stayed together,
Speaker 3: and then he graduated from graduated from the college with
Speaker 3: the Baxley degree in psychology in June of seventy two.
Speaker 3: And then we get into the next phase of his life.
Speaker 8: You talk about the Seattle Crisis Clinic, he's doing counseling,
Speaker 8: and you talk about, of course the legendary and rule,
Speaker 8: the late great and rule, and also interestingly, you talk
Speaker 8: about how offended he was that Kim might have chose
Speaker 8: another man, or pardon me, that Marjorie or pardoned me
Speaker 8: lived had chosen another man. But when you talk about
Speaker 8: a story about this formerly super shy guy that was
Speaker 8: having no success with women, but now he's having a
Speaker 8: relationship with the woman named Kim, and there's a confrontation
Speaker 8: team Liz and Kim. So tell us a little bit
Speaker 8: about some of the successes he starts having. Once he
Speaker 8: graduates and rule and then this confrontation very interesting and
Speaker 8: this demonstrative incident with kim.
Speaker 3: Okay. When Ted graduated, Liz gave him a six man
Speaker 3: rubber raft and there was one knows that you pump
Speaker 3: up and you know, they're real good on the river,
Speaker 3: and that was her presence to him graduating. But it
Speaker 3: seemed like it was in the spring before he graduated
Speaker 3: that he was doing volunteer work at the crisis center
Speaker 3: and Ruele was manning a phone and he was manning
Speaker 3: another phone, and he really enjoyed talking to her. Now,
Speaker 3: she was a crime writer at that point. And how
Speaker 3: much of that fitted in with everything else, you know,
Speaker 3: he was doing, I'm not sure. But the Ted was
Speaker 3: changing by then, and Marjorie was getting more impressed with him,
Speaker 3: and they were still having the talk. But so he
Speaker 3: was still beholden to Liz, but he wasn't going there
Speaker 3: as often. And his statement to me was that he
Speaker 3: was doing some of the bad boy types of things.
Speaker 3: And so he is still telling Marjorie that once he
Speaker 3: gets settled in a job that they can get married.
Speaker 3: So she is still anticipating getting married, and yet he
Speaker 3: starts going out with a couple of the girls from
Speaker 3: the Harbor View Center Mental Help, and one of the
Speaker 3: girl I named Kim, had a good conversation with her.
Speaker 3: Now she talked about how what she saw in Ted
Speaker 3: and how the relationship between them seemed to be a struggle.
Speaker 3: It was who was stronger, who was who is more competent,
Speaker 3: who is more skilled? Who you know? And and she
Speaker 3: said a couple of times he made sexual advance. It
Speaker 3: was a real mental and physical struggle. And when he
Speaker 3: was in the center, and I got this from a
Speaker 3: couple of people. Now he was a counselor, and I
Speaker 3: wasn't sure just what this meant, because if a person
Speaker 3: is a counselor, it's usually because they've had a lot
Speaker 3: of training. Now, now Ked had a bachelor's degree in psychology,
Speaker 3: that he didn't necessarily have a lot of experience in therapy.
Speaker 3: And when he would be with some clients, he told
Speaker 3: me that he didn't like it there because he was
Speaker 3: given schizophrenics and he said he hadn't been skilled, He
Speaker 3: hadn't been hadn't been trained on how to work with schizophrenics,
Speaker 3: and who knew him there, said he was just cold.
Speaker 3: He came and went as he as he wanted to,
Speaker 3: and he just didn't communicate and people saw him as
Speaker 3: an intellectual phony. Now Kim was interested in and she
Speaker 3: was twenty three years old at the time. And when
Speaker 3: you start doing that then and he got a job
Speaker 3: there after he graduated, and that brought an end to
Speaker 3: the volunteer work, I believe with Van Ruel. But then
Speaker 3: he started going out with him and it was very
Speaker 3: problematic because he, on one hand, took her out and
Speaker 3: I think is well took her out to the river
Speaker 3: and they had a picnic, and she said they drove
Speaker 3: there and she was somewhat impressed, but slightly con choose,
Speaker 3: because he seemed to know where he was going. He
Speaker 3: was going to dease out of the white places, you know.
Speaker 3: But so when they got there and they were going
Speaker 3: there for this picnic and have fun, and she expected, yeah,
Speaker 3: they might have sex. And there was a tree there
Speaker 3: and he wanted her to climb up in the tree,
Speaker 3: to go out on a branch that extended out over
Speaker 3: the river and to jump in. And she didn't want
Speaker 3: to do it. She said, the river was it was fast,
Speaker 3: the water was fast, it was cold, and she didn't
Speaker 3: want to do it. But he kept trying to get
Speaker 3: her to climb up in the tree and jump off,
Speaker 3: so finally she just jumped off in the river from
Speaker 3: the bank. And she thought, well, that way, I'm in
Speaker 3: the water, so he can't get me to jump out
Speaker 3: of the tree. She thought, of all the stupid things,
Speaker 3: why would he want me to climb up there? And
Speaker 3: there wasn't so much that he was going to do it,
Speaker 3: as she ain't seemed to indicate but that he wanted to.
Speaker 3: But he jumped the water also, and then in the
Speaker 3: process of this, he pushed her head under the and
Speaker 3: just held it there and then finally let it up.
Speaker 3: And he did this three times, as I remember, and
Speaker 3: finally he says, what are you trying to do? Drown me?
Speaker 3: And her thought was not so much that he actually
Speaker 3: was trying to drown her, because he thought, no, he's
Speaker 3: not going to do that. No, But her thought was
Speaker 3: we're all alone, nobody knows we're here. But they got out,
Speaker 3: and I assume they had a blanket that they got
Speaker 3: out and laid on the blanket and had sex. And
Speaker 3: her what it was, what it was like, was it passionate?
Speaker 3: Was was he gentle? And she says it was as
Speaker 3: though he was raping her. It was consensual sex, but
Speaker 3: she she and some others would say that at times
Speaker 3: Ted just seemed to space out, and she says it
Speaker 3: was like it was like he was somewhere else in
Speaker 3: his mind when he was having sex. No, and then
Speaker 3: there were times when he tried to press her to
Speaker 3: have sex, and she said, it wasn't that I didn't
Speaker 3: want to, it was just the situation was not right,
Speaker 3: and it was a real put down to him, you know. So, yeah,
Speaker 3: you talk about major event.
Speaker 8: Yeah, certainly. The Again, this has been talked about before,
Speaker 8: discussed partly, but we're going to go into this in depth.
Speaker 8: We talk about him making a promise to Marjorie that
Speaker 8: they could get married and at the same time he
Speaker 8: was engaged to Liz, or it was the other way around.
Speaker 8: That's the situation that he was in. What tell us
Speaker 8: about the defining moment where he makes up his mind
Speaker 8: one way or another, but he has this confrontation with
Speaker 8: Marjorie which is surprising to her. Tell us about this
Speaker 8: event that so many people spoken about before.
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, So in the summer of seventy two, then
Speaker 3: Ted is working at the center and then he leaves
Speaker 3: that in the fall, begins working on the Governor Evans
Speaker 3: reelection campaign, and Evans gets re elected and there's a
Speaker 3: big celebrations about that. In the beginning of seventy three,
Speaker 3: they have this big party, this big celebration, and Ted
Speaker 3: is going to take Liz to it, And a day before,
Speaker 3: or a couple of days before, he and Liz go
Speaker 3: shopping to get her a dress for this ball, and
Speaker 3: she gets something, and then they come out of the
Speaker 3: store and Ted begins running off, and evidently there was
Speaker 3: some guy that was a purse snatcher and Ted running
Speaker 3: down and stopped him. Of course, she thought this is great,
Speaker 3: but she said, and he said, when they went to
Speaker 3: the ball, she drank a little too much, and she
Speaker 3: isolated herself and was off drinking by herself when Ted
Speaker 3: was associating with all these people. Now, the problem was
Speaker 3: this was his comfort, She was his security. But he
Speaker 3: said she did not have the personality that he was
Speaker 3: looking for or what he wanted, because you know, he
Speaker 3: graduated and he's going to get into politics, then he
Speaker 3: was going to do these wonderful things. So he wanted
Speaker 3: a woman with that personality who could get in and
Speaker 3: everyone could say Wow, she's wonderful, she's beautiful, she's all
Speaker 3: of this, and he says, besides, she had a child
Speaker 3: and she had a drinking problem. So he just couldn't
Speaker 3: couldn't settle on that, and so that's the So then,
Speaker 3: but he'd started college and in the summer, that's the
Speaker 3: ball took place in January of seventy seventy three, and
Speaker 3: Ted he was questioning about who wanted. In the summer
Speaker 3: of seventy three, he went down to San Francisco and
Speaker 3: spent about a week with Marjorie because they had been
Speaker 3: talking and Ted had he was outgoing, he seemed confident,
Speaker 3: he was a good conversationalist, a good talker, and she
Speaker 3: was impressed. So there was some hint that maybe they
Speaker 3: could get back together again. So Liz is up in
Speaker 3: Seattle and Ted goes down and meets Marjorie in San
Speaker 3: Francisco during the summer, and she's impressed with him, and
Speaker 3: he looks on her as a possible wife, the type
Speaker 3: of wife he wants. After all, she comes from a
Speaker 3: wealthy family, she's graduated, she's employed, she's beautiful, everything he wants.
Speaker 3: And so they do some things together. The first night
Speaker 3: or maybe two nights he's in a hotel. Then he
Speaker 3: goes and he's invited to her place and they start
Speaker 3: the relationship. And then she comes up in the fall
Speaker 3: and Ted is now going back to colleges at UPS
Speaker 3: to study law at a time, Liz goes with him
Speaker 3: to classes and she's to join that. She doesn't know
Speaker 3: anything about Marjorie. But Marjorie comes up in the fall,
Speaker 3: and Ted and Marjorie seem to get along quite well,
Speaker 3: and she plans on coming back again for the Christmas
Speaker 3: holidays in seventy three. And this is a real major
Speaker 3: thing for Ted. So he's going to classes, he's basically
Speaker 3: doing okay. And then Liz goes, takes the daughter and
Speaker 3: goes back to her family for the Christmas holidays. And
Speaker 3: I think Ted just said, I'm going to stay here
Speaker 3: because I got love of studying to do and I
Speaker 3: want to catch up on some things.
Speaker 2: And so, but.
Speaker 3: He gets a condo, he borrows a friend's condo, as
Speaker 3: I remember, and Marjorie comes up and they go skiing,
Speaker 3: make love. They in essence, they have a lot of fun.
Speaker 3: And then and then the week after, you know, pretty
Speaker 3: close to New Year's and she said she told me
Speaker 3: that she thinks she pushed the issue of them getting married,
Speaker 3: and so they did, they got engaged, and so New
Speaker 3: Year's Day seventy four, she gets on the plane, flies
Speaker 3: back to San Francisco, goes back to her home with
Speaker 3: wedding on her mind. And they're thinking of getting married
Speaker 3: that spring, and she's going to go home and get
Speaker 3: prepared for it and tell all the family and everything else.
Speaker 3: And Ted told me, he says, I couldn't wait to
Speaker 3: get back to Liz. And when I asked him what
Speaker 3: was wrong. He saw Marjorie as a little too controlling,
Speaker 3: and she would get angry agree at him for little things,
Speaker 3: lost his keys in the car, forgot to pick up
Speaker 3: some tomatoes, or sufferer and little things like that, and
Speaker 3: so he saw her as very critical and an important thing.
Speaker 3: At this point, now Ted is already killed at least
Speaker 3: two and possibly more. You know, when he said that
Speaker 3: was the last straw when Liz went out on the catamaran,
Speaker 3: I think he killed someone about that time. But he's looking,
Speaker 3: you know, so I think what he wants, think what
Speaker 3: he wants. He doesn't want to go on killing. I
Speaker 3: think he is so addicted to trolling for women and
Speaker 3: looking for victims and fantasizing, and he gets so locked
Speaker 3: in to all of this fantasy life. And some of
Speaker 3: the girls he went with talked about how he seemed
Speaker 3: to space out during sex and he would choke him
Speaker 3: and they would have to shake him, and he didn't
Speaker 3: seem to realize what he was doing. And the one
Speaker 3: girl would say that she and Liz were walking down
Speaker 3: the road and Ted was walking toward him, and he
Speaker 3: passed him, and he just didn't seem to see him,
Speaker 3: you know. And one of them, they were in a
Speaker 3: restaurant and they were talking about abortion, and Ted was
Speaker 3: very much against this, you know. And one thing we
Speaker 3: didn't mention, Liz got pregnant and had some abortion and
Speaker 3: and so there in this restaurant and Ted seems to
Speaker 3: squeeze his glass so tight, and whether he hit it
Speaker 3: on the table or just his hands, he broke the
Speaker 3: glass as they were talking about this, and he got
Speaker 3: so angry about it. No, but so he runs back
Speaker 3: to Liz and and when Marjorie flies down to California.
Speaker 3: But what seemed to happen was again he was putting
Speaker 3: all of his marbles in one basket. He was hoping
Speaker 3: that Marjorie would come up, they would re establish relationship,
Speaker 3: because in his mind he was still seeing her as
Speaker 3: the girl she was back when they were going to college,
Speaker 3: and he was he thought he had this beautiful intelligence
Speaker 3: woman who could be his companion in the campaigns and
Speaker 3: as a politician and lawyer and all of this. And
Speaker 3: he was very disappointed.
Speaker 1: And then.
Speaker 3: I think he had been doing a lot of window
Speaker 3: peeking at this point and living this other secret life
Speaker 3: where he is raping women. And so she flies back.
Speaker 3: He goes back to Liz and he says, just a
Speaker 3: breath of fresh air. You have shortly after that the
Speaker 3: one girl who was attacked and she didn't die, but
Speaker 3: came close to it, and he beat her senseless, and
Speaker 3: then you had the other victims after that, and and
Speaker 3: what you saw through all of that, he was confident.
Speaker 3: He was polished as a killer. No, And and then
Speaker 3: we get into lakes some mammage. But his grades began
Speaker 3: to go down, and he had applied the University of
Speaker 3: Utah law school and he got accepted or the fall
Speaker 3: of seventy three. But then he sent him a letter
Speaker 3: and says, see, I'm sorry.
Speaker 8: I can't.
Speaker 3: But you say he had an accident, he was injured
Speaker 3: and so but then so he stayed up there and
Speaker 3: he began falling apart, and he applied to the U again.
Speaker 3: He got accepted, and so in the fall of seventy
Speaker 3: four he was to go to law school in the
Speaker 3: University of Utah. Then we get into that, like sammamis
Speaker 3: and about the boat trip during this summer of seventy four.
Speaker 8: Yes, it all culminates. I mean, it's just the beginning
Speaker 8: of or not the beginning, but just the beginning of
Speaker 8: the terror. Really when November. You also talk about something
Speaker 8: I never read before, and you write in a book
Speaker 8: about Ted being introduced to the Church of Latter day
Speaker 8: Saints LDS, the Mormons. Yeah, and he was quite serious
Speaker 8: about And you say at the same time that this
Speaker 8: was November seventy four, same time as the kidnapping of
Speaker 8: Carol de Ranch and then the murder kidnapping of Debbie Kent.
Speaker 8: So you talk about all this unraveling around this time,
Speaker 8: But we don't have enough time to go any further,
Speaker 8: doctor al and we will have to leave it for
Speaker 8: people to explore in your incredible book. I also want
Speaker 8: to just talk about that this assessment that this evaluation
Speaker 8: affected Ted in his sentencing with a five to life,
Speaker 8: a five year to life sentence. However, that your correspondence
Speaker 8: did not end with Ted, as we alluded to in
Speaker 8: the introduction, that there was more correspondence, more compact with
Speaker 8: Ted after the world knew who he was. And again,
Speaker 8: very very fascinating, fascinating interviews that you have and you've
Speaker 8: included in this book. This as you write, this affected
Speaker 8: you for the rest of your life. Unbeknownst to you
Speaker 8: at that time, this affected your career and your life.
Speaker 8: Just tell us what, in conclusion, what really this really
Speaker 8: meant to you. We know we have this fine book
Speaker 8: called Violent Mind about this assessment and evaluation and your
Speaker 8: correspondence and all the interviews that you did. But what
Speaker 8: did you take away most from this? What could you
Speaker 8: say was the biggest and most profound effect that this
Speaker 8: entire evaluation, assessment and relationship with Ted Mundy had on you?
Speaker 3: Okay, two or three things. First of all, it gave
Speaker 3: me a lot of confidence that I could interview and
Speaker 3: write about serial killers because I was very comfortable with Ted.
Speaker 3: And even though he shook my report when he's being sentenced,
Speaker 3: he shook it in the air, and he said tears
Speaker 3: coming down cheeks and so angry and talked about how
Speaker 3: invalid my report was. Still he got in touch with
Speaker 3: me when he got off the prison. We had some
Speaker 3: more talks. And then and when he escaped from jail
Speaker 3: and got caught, and he called me and we talked
Speaker 3: and he was very friendly, and he talked to me.
Speaker 3: I just wanted to know how I felt, what my
Speaker 3: perception was of his escape. But we had Arthur Gary
Speaker 3: Bishop who came to prison I killed five kids, and
Speaker 3: when I went down to talk to him, it was
Speaker 3: just okay, you know, I'm from the psychology department, if
Speaker 3: you want to talk. And he says, I want to
Speaker 3: be executed for those kids, but I don't understand why
Speaker 3: I did it. So for the next next period of time,
Speaker 3: a couple of years, I got all of his history
Speaker 3: about why and how it happened. And then I went
Speaker 3: up and talked to Wes Dodge, who killed three kids,
Speaker 3: and got all of his story, and each of them
Speaker 3: gave me a couple of hundred pages of material about it,
Speaker 3: and I just became very confident in talking serial killers.
Speaker 3: And I went up and talked to Keith Jasperson, a
Speaker 3: happy face killer, and I interviewed for a year over
Speaker 3: year in depth with a Vietnam a guy who came
Speaker 3: back and became a hit man, and he told me
Speaker 3: his whole story, and I started writing these things down.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 3: So I've done three books on it now and we're
Speaker 3: working on four books. We're working on one on the
Speaker 3: Columbine Killers now. But I just became very confident. So
Speaker 3: in Ethens, it was with Ted Bundy. It opened the
Speaker 3: door to a level of confidence, a level of interest.
Speaker 3: I wanted to know how these guys got to be
Speaker 3: that point in the first place, because they didn't seem
Speaker 3: to understand how it happened. And so I developed this
Speaker 3: technique of unraveling at step. And so now I'm publishing books.
Speaker 3: I'm very happy and it's actually more of a hobby
Speaker 3: than anything, but thoroughly enjoyed. We're an understanding serial killers
Speaker 3: and so that's what it's done.
Speaker 8: Well, we want to thank you very much. It wasn't
Speaker 8: an incredible experience, no doubt, speaking with and experiencing Ted Bundy,
Speaker 8: and it's been fantastic that you shared that experience with
Speaker 8: our audience tonight. I want to thank you very much.
Speaker 8: For those that might want to look at a website
Speaker 8: or if they have a Facebook page, is there any
Speaker 8: way that people might look at the other work or
Speaker 8: you have a Facebook page for this book.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, just go in and google Al Carlisle or
Speaker 3: Violentmind dot com. But if they just do Al Carlisle,
Speaker 3: it'll bring up to my web page and my books
Speaker 3: are on there, and if they have any comments, if
Speaker 3: they have any questions there. I'm very open for people
Speaker 3: to contact me and just ask anything they want to ask.
Speaker 3: And so my website, my email is on my website,
Speaker 3: so we are very free to contact me.
Speaker 8: And great, thank you very much for coming on and
Speaker 8: talking about your book, Violent Mind, the nineteen seventy six
Speaker 8: Psychological Assessment of Ted Bundy. We just touched on some
Speaker 8: of the incredible information that you have in this book.
Speaker 8: We just touched on it, and I just want to
Speaker 8: thank you very much, doctor al Carlisle for coming on
Speaker 8: and talking about that, and hope to talk to you
Speaker 8: again soon. Thank you very much, and have a great evening,
Speaker 8: and thank.
Speaker 3: You so much. Good night, good night,