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Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK every week, 46 00:02:29.960 --> 00:02:33.759 another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous 47 00:02:33.840 --> 00:02:37.840 killers in true crime history True Murder with your host 48 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:51.159 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 49 00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:56.520 In March nineteen seventy six, Ted Bundy was convicted of 50 00:02:56.560 --> 00:03:00.120 the aggravated kidnapping of a young woman near Salt Lake City. 51 00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.240 Bundy had not been accused or convicted of any violent 52 00:03:04.280 --> 00:03:07.800 crime except this one. No one knew how many women 53 00:03:07.879 --> 00:03:11.080 Bundy had murdered, and many thought him incapable of doing so. 54 00:03:12.479 --> 00:03:15.879 Doctor al Carlyle was part of the ninety day diagnostic 55 00:03:15.960 --> 00:03:19.039 team at the Utah State Prison when Bundy was sent 56 00:03:19.080 --> 00:03:24.680 there after the trial. Doctor Carlyle's assignment was specific determined 57 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:27.800 to the best of his ability, without being biased by 58 00:03:27.840 --> 00:03:31.439 any of the reports previously done, whether Ted Bundy had 59 00:03:31.439 --> 00:03:35.280 a violent personality. The judge would use this information in 60 00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:39.280 deciding whether Bundy should serve time or be released on probation. 61 00:03:40.840 --> 00:03:45.479 In Violent Mind, the nineteen seventy six psychological Evaluation of 62 00:03:45.520 --> 00:03:49.759 Ted Bundy, doctor Carlyle takes the reader's step by step 63 00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:54.800 through this previously unpublished evaluation process and shows how he 64 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:58.479 concluded that Bundy had the capacity to commit aggravated kidnapping, 65 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:03.879 and perhaps much worse. Violent Mind contains never before seen 66 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:07.479 interviews with Ted Bundy and those who knew him, including 67 00:04:07.479 --> 00:04:10.080 a letter Bundy wrote to doctor Carlyle that has been 68 00:04:10.120 --> 00:04:13.879 locked away for more than forty years. The book they 69 00:04:13.919 --> 00:04:17.920 were featuring this even is Violent Mind, The nineteen seventy 70 00:04:17.959 --> 00:04:22.160 six Psychological Assessment of Ted Bundy, with my guest journalist 71 00:04:22.199 --> 00:04:26.120 and author, doctor al Carlyle. Welcome to the program, and 72 00:04:26.160 --> 00:04:29.079 thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Doctor 73 00:04:29.199 --> 00:04:37.480 al Carlyle. Thank you, thank you very much. Incredible book, 74 00:04:37.680 --> 00:04:41.800 and I'm sure as a result of an incredible interview about, 75 00:04:42.879 --> 00:04:44.560 of course, Ted Bundy. 76 00:04:44.439 --> 00:04:47.000 The infamous Thank you. 77 00:04:47.000 --> 00:04:50.800 You talk about this ninety day diagnostic in the beginning 78 00:04:50.879 --> 00:04:54.759 of your book, The ninety Day Diagnostic and Evaluation Unit, 79 00:04:55.160 --> 00:04:58.399 March nineteen seventy six, and you were in your late 80 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:02.399 thirties a psychologist for the Utah Department of Corrections. Tell 81 00:05:02.480 --> 00:05:04.199 us a little bit about how you came to be 82 00:05:04.959 --> 00:05:09.160 part of this committee and what your role and your 83 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:13.600 obligations were in this at the Utah State Prison. 84 00:05:15.079 --> 00:05:24.079 Okay, it was a section within the prison where if 85 00:05:26.120 --> 00:05:31.000 a judge found a person guilty that there was some 86 00:05:31.160 --> 00:05:35.399 question of whether or not this person needed to have 87 00:05:35.480 --> 00:05:39.680 a hard number within the prison, or if he could 88 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:47.920 benefit and treatment on probation or in a halfway out 89 00:05:48.000 --> 00:05:54.120 something like that. And so Judge Stewart Hanson, who had 90 00:05:54.199 --> 00:06:00.639 tried the case and found Ted guilty, was receiving a 91 00:06:00.759 --> 00:06:05.399 lot of conflicting information. There were a lot of people 92 00:06:05.519 --> 00:06:09.480 from the Northwest and even some local people who said 93 00:06:09.480 --> 00:06:18.439 that Ted was a likable person. He was in law 94 00:06:18.519 --> 00:06:26.480 school at the University of Utah Law School program, and 95 00:06:26.759 --> 00:06:31.319 people liked him, and so he was sent out to 96 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:35.120 our program. I had been working at this day prison 97 00:06:36.639 --> 00:06:45.279 since about sixty seven, and at that time I was 98 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:52.800 the psychologist with the ninety day unit, and so it 99 00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:58.560 fell upon me to do this evaluation. And at that 100 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:04.160 point that we had a psychiatrist, doctor Van Austin, just 101 00:07:04.199 --> 00:07:10.079 a fantastic guy since deceased, but he was really good. 102 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:15.759 And so he did an evaluation of Ted. And there 103 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:20.800 was a ninety day evaluation program that Donald Hull had 104 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:23.839 done which was very thorough and very good, and he 105 00:07:23.959 --> 00:07:29.160 found mixed results. And there was a psychological assessment that 106 00:07:29.360 --> 00:07:37.680 was done on him, this by doctor Evan Lewis who 107 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:43.920 said he thought Ted was holding back. There are so 108 00:07:44.000 --> 00:07:47.319 many things he thought might be going on, but he 109 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:52.639 couldn't delineate that because Ted didn't open up. And doctor 110 00:07:53.120 --> 00:07:57.560 Van Austin, a psychiatrist, said basically the same thing and 111 00:07:57.639 --> 00:08:03.199 so and Ted had taken and some psychological tests and 112 00:08:04.000 --> 00:08:07.759 came out looking clean on him, and so there was 113 00:08:07.839 --> 00:08:14.879 readly nothing showing up. So I felt my job then 114 00:08:15.160 --> 00:08:20.279 was in my psychological evaluation. I wanted to do something 115 00:08:20.480 --> 00:08:27.079 that was different, a little different, an extended part. So 116 00:08:27.160 --> 00:08:32.559 I interviewed him for about twenty hours and called a 117 00:08:32.679 --> 00:08:39.720 number of people who knew him, old girlfriends and his 118 00:08:39.879 --> 00:08:43.080 mother and you know, just a number of people. And 119 00:08:43.120 --> 00:08:45.519 some said, yeah, he's a wonderful guy. He couldn't have 120 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:49.200 he couldn't harm anyone. And others say, hey, there's a 121 00:08:49.240 --> 00:08:52.720 different side to this guy. And so when I put 122 00:08:52.759 --> 00:08:55.519 all of that together and got a pretty thoroughly evaluate, 123 00:08:55.960 --> 00:09:03.879 pretous throw interview from Ted about his childhood, I felt 124 00:09:03.879 --> 00:09:10.799 that there was a gradual movement throughout those years, beginning 125 00:09:10.840 --> 00:09:14.639 in his childhood, and then things happen in his teenage 126 00:09:14.679 --> 00:09:19.399 years and such that I came up at the conclusion 127 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:25.720 that I think Ted is a violent person, and so 128 00:09:25.759 --> 00:09:26.840 that was my part. 129 00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:32.279 In your first impressions of Ted and how he approached 130 00:09:32.279 --> 00:09:35.360 you and what your first impression was, especially considering the 131 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:38.519 charges that were against him, before we talk about the 132 00:09:38.559 --> 00:09:43.240 specific tests that you used to determine this, and then 133 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.519 we can talk about his actual childhood. Did you say 134 00:09:46.600 --> 00:09:50.919 that shaped him into the person he became. So let's 135 00:09:50.919 --> 00:09:53.240 first talk about that first meeting with him and your 136 00:09:53.279 --> 00:09:56.440 impressions with him, and how what was his personality like 137 00:09:56.720 --> 00:09:58.639 at first glance? 138 00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:09.399 Very interesting because on one hand he had been found 139 00:10:09.480 --> 00:10:17.639 guilty of attempted abduction of Cheryl Deange and he was 140 00:10:17.720 --> 00:10:21.200 possibly going to kill her. But on the other hand, 141 00:10:21.240 --> 00:10:26.799 he had worked in political campaigns and the prison is 142 00:10:26.840 --> 00:10:29.399 set up in such a way he would be let 143 00:10:29.480 --> 00:10:31.440 out of his cell and then he would come down. 144 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.759 He knew her My office words was, which was in 145 00:10:34.799 --> 00:10:39.559 the corridor of the prison. As you come in the prison, 146 00:10:39.639 --> 00:10:45.240 you go through two gates to get in, and so 147 00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:51.279 he was just walking down, walking towards me, and he was, 148 00:10:51.720 --> 00:10:55.799 even though he's in prison outfit. He was dressed night late, 149 00:10:55.960 --> 00:10:59.559 nice league, clean cut. He just looked good and he 150 00:10:59.600 --> 00:11:02.480 had a smile in his face. He walked towards me, 151 00:11:03.600 --> 00:11:11.080 something similar to if I'm going to buy a car 152 00:11:11.679 --> 00:11:14.080 and the salesman walks up to me with a smile 153 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:18.440 on his face and extends his hand and says, Hi, 154 00:11:18.679 --> 00:11:23.399 I'm Ted Bundy. You must be doctor Carlyle. And I 155 00:11:24.320 --> 00:11:30.639 was impressed because you generally don't get that approach from 156 00:11:30.799 --> 00:11:34.399 a person who's going to be going through a psychological 157 00:11:34.440 --> 00:11:39.559 assessment on a violent crime when the outcome could be 158 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:44.960 he's going to be sends to prison. So and sitting 159 00:11:45.000 --> 00:11:49.679 down talking to him, he was friendly, He spoke easily, 160 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.320 although at times I felt that what he said was rehearsed. 161 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:00.960 But he was very easy to talk to. And the 162 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:03.840 times I knew him after that, after he came to 163 00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:07.279 prison and was a hard number, and we had some 164 00:12:07.320 --> 00:12:13.320 more visits, and when he escaped from jail in Colorado 165 00:12:14.080 --> 00:12:18.200 and got caught and put in another jail, and he 166 00:12:18.279 --> 00:12:22.879 called me and we talked and again just very friendly, 167 00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:27.720 just easy to talk to. So yeah, there's very definitely 168 00:12:27.759 --> 00:12:31.720 two sides of Ted Bundy. And it was a fascinating, 169 00:12:31.919 --> 00:12:33.000 fascinating case. 170 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:39.360 Now you write that you didn't read the Dead Bundy 171 00:12:39.399 --> 00:12:43.279 file in depth, but you skimmed it because he wanted 172 00:12:43.320 --> 00:12:46.919 to have no bias previous to these interviews. 173 00:12:47.720 --> 00:12:49.320 Yeah, so how much I. 174 00:12:51.080 --> 00:12:55.840 Go ahead, go ahead, explain how you could not look 175 00:12:55.879 --> 00:12:59.519 at this and not have any bias. How much did 176 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:02.080 you well know at that time? 177 00:13:02.879 --> 00:13:06.960 Yeah. Generally, when I sit down with the person the 178 00:13:07.000 --> 00:13:11.000 first time for an evaluation, I like to do a 179 00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:16.000 cold That is, I want to see what I see. 180 00:13:16.360 --> 00:13:21.679 I want to explore the like in the criminal. I 181 00:13:21.679 --> 00:13:25.279 want to explore the crime, and I want to get 182 00:13:25.360 --> 00:13:30.440 the person's view, his statement about what he did and 183 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.480 why he did and all that type of thing. And 184 00:13:33.519 --> 00:13:40.000 then I signed some psychological tests for the person to do, 185 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:44.480 and then we get together for other meetings after that. 186 00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:52.279 But so little by little, I want to come up 187 00:13:52.279 --> 00:13:56.600 with my own opinion of what this person's like. So 188 00:13:57.320 --> 00:14:03.720 I had the precentered investigation done hull, and I went 189 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:09.759 through the crime, and I skimmed through other parts of it, 190 00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:13.519 you know, some things on history, and he had some 191 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:17.200 testimonies and some people and such in there, and I 192 00:14:17.320 --> 00:14:22.879 just skimmed through that, and so I got a little 193 00:14:22.919 --> 00:14:27.639 bit of an idea of what was seen. I wanted. 194 00:14:28.080 --> 00:14:32.480 I wanted to look at ted from a fresh views, 195 00:14:32.480 --> 00:14:38.200 so to speak. You know, I had been told that 196 00:14:38.399 --> 00:14:44.200 he see the m MPI Multiphaised Personality Inventory. The m 197 00:14:44.279 --> 00:14:51.519 MPI is one of the most popular and common tests 198 00:14:51.639 --> 00:14:55.320 used for personality, and I had understood that he had 199 00:14:55.399 --> 00:15:03.639 taken that and he came out real clean. So so 200 00:15:06.559 --> 00:15:12.840 I like to look at it from a fresh view, 201 00:15:14.240 --> 00:15:18.720 with only a hint of what has gone on except 202 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:25.200 the crime. I get in detail, but I want to 203 00:15:25.240 --> 00:15:28.600 see the person as I see the person, and not 204 00:15:28.919 --> 00:15:34.000 as what others have seen. Then I compare it after that, 205 00:15:35.320 --> 00:15:38.399 go back more in depth and see what others have seen, 206 00:15:38.480 --> 00:15:40.840 and see how that compares with what I saw. 207 00:15:43.720 --> 00:15:47.320 With Ted and his as you write it seems to 208 00:15:47.480 --> 00:15:53.159 parent everybody. He's very intelligent or intelligent. And given that intelligence, 209 00:15:53.279 --> 00:15:58.519 when you mentioned the term clean to the Minnesota Multi 210 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:04.000 Phasic Personality Test the MMBI, what did you mean by 211 00:16:04.120 --> 00:16:08.759 that and what could Ted's intelligence enable him to do 212 00:16:10.799 --> 00:16:13.159 when he was tested? In your mind? 213 00:16:13.240 --> 00:16:20.240 Okay, by clean means the way I use it, he 214 00:16:20.360 --> 00:16:26.879 didn't show a lot of pathology, like his depression scores 215 00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:35.240 were low, anxiety was low, anger low, and we gave 216 00:16:35.360 --> 00:16:41.679 him a test have to prison Bipolar Personality Inventory, which 217 00:16:42.440 --> 00:16:45.080 is a different one. He had never taken that one before, 218 00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:48.360 and it had a lot of the same categories, and 219 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.519 he came out very low in those, that is, and 220 00:16:52.679 --> 00:16:55.879 this was one of the red flags where I think 221 00:16:56.000 --> 00:17:05.720 that he he over himself. His anxiety score was way down, 222 00:17:05.839 --> 00:17:12.599 near the bottom. Low, nothing, no depression, no anger, and 223 00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:17.319 everything looked good. In fact, it looked better than the 224 00:17:17.480 --> 00:17:22.440 average person would look. And it just it it didn't 225 00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.559 fit because here's a guy kid, if he was innocent, 226 00:17:27.960 --> 00:17:31.680 if he was innocent, and he is going to this evaluation, 227 00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:38.079 and it along with the psychiatric report and the report 228 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:44.799 from the caseworker and such if if if he showed 229 00:17:44.920 --> 00:17:48.880 up with some pathology, it would really increase the chances 230 00:17:49.000 --> 00:17:54.799 of being committed to the prison. So he's scoring so low, 231 00:17:54.920 --> 00:17:58.160 and it's like it doesn't fit a kid who comes 232 00:17:58.160 --> 00:18:02.200 in like this and he's been kicked out of law school, 233 00:18:02.480 --> 00:18:08.359 so to speak, and everyone's questioning him and everyone's confused 234 00:18:08.400 --> 00:18:15.319 over him, and he has lost the possibility of the 235 00:18:15.480 --> 00:18:21.519 type of love of future and career he wanted, and 236 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:26.000 yet he's showing that he has no anxiety, no depression, 237 00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:31.359 no anger, and everything is just just fine. It's almost 238 00:18:31.480 --> 00:18:34.960 like here I am. I'm very happy, and these things 239 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:40.880 don't bother me at all. And being intelligent, Okay, that's 240 00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:43.720 a combination of a couple of things. One his IQ 241 00:18:46.119 --> 00:18:50.480 came up to in the one hundred and twenties and 242 00:18:50.759 --> 00:18:56.559 which is superior. But in addition to the IQ, he 243 00:18:56.759 --> 00:19:03.519 had the bags from college. He had his work in 244 00:19:03.599 --> 00:19:11.480 the political campaigns, and so he had he had had 245 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:18.039 a chance to develop a political personality, if there is 246 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:23.839 really such a thing, and had interacted with a lot 247 00:19:23.880 --> 00:19:29.079 of people over the years, and so he had learned 248 00:19:29.119 --> 00:19:34.160 to present himself very well in a very intelligent manner. 249 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:41.400 And I believe that he practiced a lot of forethought 250 00:19:41.559 --> 00:19:45.920 of what he was going to say. So at times 251 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:49.680 when I asked him something that he hadn't thought of, 252 00:19:51.559 --> 00:19:56.279 he hummed, and Hawden had a more difficult time answering it. 253 00:19:56.519 --> 00:20:01.720 But yeah, being intelligent, he was able not only to 254 00:20:01.839 --> 00:20:06.680 pull off the crimes not get caught except for the 255 00:20:06.839 --> 00:20:16.240 Jodge and then in Florida, he was able to convince people, 256 00:20:17.119 --> 00:20:21.119 a lot of people that he really didn't he didn't 257 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:21.680 do anything. 258 00:20:25.319 --> 00:20:30.039 You talk about other tests, sorry, you talk about other 259 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:35.359 tests like the two word incomplete sentences test, twist and 260 00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:38.039 you talk about you were not as interested in the 261 00:20:38.119 --> 00:20:43.759 individual answers, but rather the patterns across the answers. Can 262 00:20:43.839 --> 00:20:47.799 you include this test? Tell us us, for example, briefly 263 00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:51.119 what you could determine what you did determine from this 264 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:52.359 type of test. 265 00:20:55.119 --> 00:20:57.640 This is a test where a person is given at 266 00:20:57.640 --> 00:21:02.519 the beginning of the sentence and he has to complete it. 267 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:11.359 For example, I've never he put hurt anyone. I need 268 00:21:12.039 --> 00:21:20.599 he said freedom. I feel challenged, you know. But the 269 00:21:20.640 --> 00:21:25.799 analysis of it, even though he thinks he is putting 270 00:21:27.720 --> 00:21:33.160 a thingies to a sentence that is neutral or is fine, 271 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:44.400 he says things like number twenty six when frustrated, I defensitize, 272 00:21:45.720 --> 00:21:51.880 and that one really triggered something. It just means that 273 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:58.240 a lot of criminals they learn to desensitize to the 274 00:21:58.400 --> 00:22:04.160 crimes and to the guilt, so it just doesn't bother them. 275 00:22:04.240 --> 00:22:06.880 It bothers them less and less and less over time, 276 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:16.400 because they've they've in essence, they've they've compartmentalized criminal stuff 277 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:23.680 and that personality that can do that so easily, and 278 00:22:23.799 --> 00:22:27.559 they go back and forth between the two that they've 279 00:22:27.640 --> 00:22:38.279 desynthitized the guilt, you know, and I think most girls 280 00:22:38.279 --> 00:22:42.319 should be themselves and something. I'll be an attorney and 281 00:22:44.039 --> 00:22:50.519 you know, test like this or obligatory obtuse, you know. So, Yeah, 282 00:22:50.640 --> 00:22:55.359 in the book, I take some of the items individually, 283 00:22:55.559 --> 00:23:00.799 then I combine some of them to show that some 284 00:23:00.880 --> 00:23:04.039 of the items saying that I'm twenty three, he's fearful 285 00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:11.640 of not being loved, he wants happiness and peace, he 286 00:23:11.720 --> 00:23:18.640 wants caring people, you can't stop struggling. And I put 287 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.960 those together in such a way that it creates hypotheses. 288 00:23:24.759 --> 00:23:31.880 It's not saying that this is absolute proof. It's saying 289 00:23:32.039 --> 00:23:37.680 these is suggesting some things which then I could explore 290 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:39.680 more in the interview. 291 00:23:42.960 --> 00:23:48.000 Let's get to what I think everybody would find incredibly fascinating. 292 00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:51.240 The whole book is fascinating. But there are some things 293 00:23:51.279 --> 00:23:54.559 that have been said and reported and written about Ted Bundy, 294 00:23:54.599 --> 00:23:58.559 about his early childhood, and yet you had access to 295 00:23:58.759 --> 00:24:04.279 every single truthful bit of information, so we do get 296 00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:07.920 the real picture about Ted's early life and what Ted 297 00:24:08.000 --> 00:24:11.440 thought about his early life. And then you either corroborated 298 00:24:11.559 --> 00:24:14.400 or checked with other people in his life, crucial people 299 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:18.640 in his life to check out that story. And it's 300 00:24:18.720 --> 00:24:21.799 interesting the conclusions as a result. So let's go back 301 00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:28.119 to when he was born and talk about his early 302 00:24:28.240 --> 00:24:32.680 childhood from his mother, Louise Cowell, and his early life 303 00:24:32.759 --> 00:24:38.599 moving around and illmgited, illegitimacy and that being an issue. 304 00:24:38.680 --> 00:24:44.079 Let's talk about his early life, his early childhood before 305 00:24:44.119 --> 00:24:47.079 we talk about high school and the changes did occur 306 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:48.680 at that time. 307 00:24:49.960 --> 00:25:01.160 Okay, Well, his mother, Louise, she became pregnant and nobody 308 00:25:01.319 --> 00:25:04.799 really knows just who the father was. She'd never said 309 00:25:06.319 --> 00:25:09.480 and whether it was a one night stand with a 310 00:25:09.640 --> 00:25:13.240 military person or some people have said it might have 311 00:25:13.359 --> 00:25:17.799 been her father as such, but she never said. So 312 00:25:18.039 --> 00:25:25.920 she gets pregnant and it's extremely humiliating back in those 313 00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:31.799 days and nineteen forty six, I believe, just after the war. 314 00:25:32.839 --> 00:25:39.519 And so she goes to this home front with mother's 315 00:25:40.079 --> 00:25:45.200 in Vermont and she has Ted and then she comes 316 00:25:45.319 --> 00:25:52.480 back and so he has his two aunts and they 317 00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:56.519 seem when Ted in the interview, and this was a 318 00:25:56.599 --> 00:25:58.960 big part of it. It's like, who's Ted talk about? 319 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:05.039 When he is expressing himself or giving information, he talks 320 00:26:05.079 --> 00:26:08.279 more about the two ads when he was living in 321 00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:14.240 Philadelphia than to his mother. And it doesn't prove anything, 322 00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:20.319 but again it just adds to the impression that it 323 00:26:20.480 --> 00:26:25.400 wasn't real good the relationship. And he supposedly was told 324 00:26:25.480 --> 00:26:29.880 that his mother was his sister, and we don't have 325 00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:34.960 anything about when he actually learned that his mother was 326 00:26:35.039 --> 00:26:39.839 his mother. You know, he never said anything about that. 327 00:26:40.279 --> 00:26:42.799 But he was illegitimate. He was never told he was. 328 00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:48.920 And so she goes up north and she marries John Bundy. 329 00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:55.880 Ted didn't get along with him very well. Other kids 330 00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:59.920 come in the home and so now Ted is the oldest, 331 00:27:01.240 --> 00:27:04.440 but he's not fitting in. It's a very religious family, 332 00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:09.799 and it seems like the social activities were largely centered 333 00:27:09.839 --> 00:27:15.119 around the church. And when he was young, and there's 334 00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:16.960 one place he had a couple of friends and he 335 00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:25.400 called themselves the Three Musketeers, and they lived somewhat close, 336 00:27:25.519 --> 00:27:27.880 but not real close. A mile was so away from 337 00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:30.640 each other. And then he moves to this other place 338 00:27:32.039 --> 00:27:38.039 and Ted one lady I talked to who lived on 339 00:27:38.160 --> 00:27:42.079 the same block as him, pretty much across the street. 340 00:27:43.480 --> 00:27:46.400 And in the evening as the kids would gathered around 341 00:27:46.599 --> 00:27:50.640 someone's porch and they would just talk like kids do, 342 00:27:51.200 --> 00:27:54.160 and then play games and things like that, like those 343 00:27:54.240 --> 00:27:57.680 old games kicked the can and run sheep, you run, 344 00:27:57.799 --> 00:28:01.559 and all those things are popular in those days. And 345 00:28:01.720 --> 00:28:04.720 I asked her, I says, well, what was he like? 346 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:08.279 And she says, he was just ted. He didn't show 347 00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:14.119 any anger, He was shy. He was more of a listener. 348 00:28:15.960 --> 00:28:22.039 And Ted told me that he would listen to the radio. 349 00:28:24.119 --> 00:28:30.039 And back then we had Sky King and Tom Mix 350 00:28:30.200 --> 00:28:36.400 and Roy Rogers and all of those radio stations that 351 00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.000 we listened to every week because the serials were fascinating, 352 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:44.039 you know, we couldn't wait till the next week, They're here, 353 00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:47.480 the next part. But he would listen to those. But 354 00:28:47.680 --> 00:28:52.519 the big thing was he would also listen to political talks. 355 00:28:52.599 --> 00:28:57.160 And he said, spontaneously listen to political speeches, and he 356 00:28:57.240 --> 00:29:01.839 would memorize parts of them. Well, when he was in 357 00:29:02.039 --> 00:29:05.279 elementary school, he wanted to be at the top of 358 00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:10.720 the spelling group and he wasn't and he said he 359 00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:14.599 was humiliated by that. And again you have one of 360 00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:20.640 those words that says something beyond what I think he 361 00:29:20.759 --> 00:29:25.400 was trying to say, the saying he was humiliated. And 362 00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:30.799 you put all that together and with what this lady said, 363 00:29:32.079 --> 00:29:35.880 Jed was just a very lonely boy. He was shy. 364 00:29:37.000 --> 00:29:41.839 He just didn't sit in so a lonely boy reaches 365 00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:51.440 out for something. And when he got into early teens 366 00:29:51.680 --> 00:29:58.319 twelve thirteen years old and that period, and I said 367 00:29:58.359 --> 00:30:04.960 to him, said, Ted, did you ever go out with 368 00:30:05.039 --> 00:30:08.640 some girls that associate with him? Says yes? Did you 369 00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:09.640 ever kiss a girl? 370 00:30:09.920 --> 00:30:10.079 Oh? 371 00:30:10.319 --> 00:30:14.960 Yes, did you ever? Pat just get kind of mildly 372 00:30:15.119 --> 00:30:20.480 sexually active with him, and he says, yeah. I sold 373 00:30:20.519 --> 00:30:27.599 Ted what happened because before, when you're in junior high, 374 00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:30.000 you're starting to do those things, you're showing your real 375 00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:36.119 interest in girls, and then it suddenly stops and you 376 00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:40.240 don't do anything until you go on a date to 377 00:30:40.359 --> 00:30:44.960 a school dance when you're a senior. And this is 378 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:46.680 one of the things where I think he was caught 379 00:30:46.720 --> 00:30:49.759 off guard. He sold gi L, I don't know what 380 00:30:49.880 --> 00:30:54.440 it could have been, you know, And that's like, whoops, 381 00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:59.640 wait a minute, there's a lot more to this story 382 00:30:59.720 --> 00:31:03.799 than what he's saying. So as a child, then before 383 00:31:03.920 --> 00:31:10.279 high school, he was lonely. He friends in the neighborhood, 384 00:31:11.839 --> 00:31:15.400 but then in junior high and spasically high school, they 385 00:31:15.559 --> 00:31:19.279 all got involved in other things and Ted didn't, and 386 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:25.759 he was left out. And now was his childhood. 387 00:31:30.720 --> 00:31:34.599 Now you talk about backing this up with speaking with 388 00:31:34.759 --> 00:31:39.559 people about his early childhood. Let's go to his teenage life. 389 00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:44.279 And again you all along this process think that he's 390 00:31:44.319 --> 00:31:48.759 at least being evasive and not being completely truthful. And 391 00:31:49.440 --> 00:31:55.079 all these tests depend on the subject being truthful. So 392 00:31:55.200 --> 00:31:58.400 you talk about and ask him about his teenage life, 393 00:31:58.480 --> 00:32:01.799 and then later go ask people about that and talk 394 00:32:01.880 --> 00:32:04.720 to some very very interesting people, and you start talking 395 00:32:04.799 --> 00:32:08.400 to his girlfriends as well. Before we talk about college, 396 00:32:08.720 --> 00:32:12.079 let's talk about high school and what Ted had to 397 00:32:12.079 --> 00:32:14.200 say about high school and what other people have to 398 00:32:14.279 --> 00:32:16.880 say about some of the things and some of his 399 00:32:17.000 --> 00:32:18.480 personality in high school. 400 00:32:18.680 --> 00:32:21.000 Hello, it is Ryan and we could all use an 401 00:32:21.039 --> 00:32:23.279