WEBVTT 1 00:00:13.560 --> 00:00:15.960 You are listening to the Confront of Christianity podcast and 2 00:00:16.039 --> 00:00:19.519 I'm here with doctor Sharon Diricks. Sharon is a speaker 3 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:22.079 and author whose work focused on responding to the spiritual 4 00:00:22.440 --> 00:00:25.320 and faith related questions that people ask today. She has 5 00:00:25.359 --> 00:00:28.199 a PhD in brain imaging from the University of Cambridge 6 00:00:28.399 --> 00:00:31.640 and today speaks regularly on topics such as science and theology, 7 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:35.359 human consciousness, the problem of evil and suffering. Sharon has 8 00:00:35.359 --> 00:00:37.920 appeared on local and national radio and has written for 9 00:00:38.159 --> 00:00:41.280 The Times, The London Times, that is for our American listeners. 10 00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:44.240 She is the author of Why Looking at God, Evil 11 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:48.280 and Personal Suffering? Am I Just My Brain? And most 12 00:00:48.280 --> 00:00:52.280 recently Broken Planet, released just last year. Sharon, thanks so 13 00:00:52.359 --> 00:00:55.079 much for joining me. You and I got to meet 14 00:00:55.240 --> 00:00:59.200 exceedingly briefly in the street in Cambridge this past summer, 15 00:00:59.359 --> 00:01:01.719 and it was it was lovely to kind of put 16 00:01:01.880 --> 00:01:04.040 a body in a face to a name, because i'd 17 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:06.120 certainly you've been sort of on my railar for a while, 18 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:08.400 but I hadn't been able to meet you in person. 19 00:01:09.319 --> 00:01:12.680 Fun fact, for those who don't yet know Sharon, up 20 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.680 familiar with her work. She has one of the most 21 00:01:15.680 --> 00:01:21.000 interestingly spelt last names I've ever come across, and she 22 00:01:21.280 --> 00:01:24.920 just now helped me figure out how to pronounce it. So, so, Sharon, 23 00:01:24.920 --> 00:01:27.959 your last name is spelled d I R c k X, 24 00:01:28.480 --> 00:01:33.000 which is just I love that so much. One one 25 00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:36.799 sort of vowel. It's like the sort of scrabble word 26 00:01:36.840 --> 00:01:37.280 of choice. 27 00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:40.359 It is in need of another vowel. And another fun 28 00:01:40.439 --> 00:01:42.519 fact is that so my husband and I met in 29 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:45.400 a brain imaging lab, which makes us sound very nerdy, 30 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:48.280 but one of the first things I've said to him 31 00:01:48.280 --> 00:01:50.719 when I saw his name was that he had too 32 00:01:50.760 --> 00:01:53.400 many vout consonants and non in the vowels at the 33 00:01:53.480 --> 00:01:56.560 end of his name. And there's something quite funny about 34 00:01:56.560 --> 00:01:59.159 that that I now possessed the same name. 35 00:01:59.359 --> 00:02:03.159 So yeah, that is funny. Did what was your surname 36 00:02:03.200 --> 00:02:05.519 at the time? Could you could you have opted to 37 00:02:05.560 --> 00:02:07.200 go for yours or did you just think, you know what, 38 00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:08.319 it's more fun to go with. 39 00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:11.919 So it was Gustard, which is custod but with the 40 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:15.919 G so it wasn't much true. I never fared well 41 00:02:16.000 --> 00:02:19.439 with last names. I'll just you know, take smooth. 42 00:02:19.800 --> 00:02:23.240 When I married my husband, Brian, he I said, I'll 43 00:02:23.280 --> 00:02:25.520 change my name for yours. If you'll start pronouncing your 44 00:02:25.599 --> 00:02:29.479 name correctly in my view, because he is Brian McLaughlin 45 00:02:29.840 --> 00:02:32.039 as I would say, but his family and most Americans 46 00:02:32.080 --> 00:02:34.800 would say McLoughlin. But I've been on a sort of 47 00:02:34.800 --> 00:02:37.719 personal campaign to reclaim that, you know, the good sort 48 00:02:37.719 --> 00:02:43.520 of Scots Irish pronunciation of that name in America. None 49 00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:46.479 of that is remotely related. Well, actually no it is. 50 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:49.400 It is, okay, So right, of the many things that 51 00:02:49.439 --> 00:02:51.039 we could talk about today, and I know you have 52 00:02:51.080 --> 00:02:54.840 a real range of interests, I'm actually most interested to 53 00:02:54.919 --> 00:02:59.080 talk to you about questions rising from from your penultimate 54 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:01.479 book or your I am not assuming that your most 55 00:03:01.479 --> 00:03:04.000 recent book is the Ultimate, the book you published in 56 00:03:04.000 --> 00:03:07.840 twenty nineteen. Am I just in my brain? My brain? 57 00:03:07.919 --> 00:03:09.439 Oh yeah, I was thinking it must be am I 58 00:03:09.520 --> 00:03:11.400 just my brain? But the note I have here says, 59 00:03:11.400 --> 00:03:12.680 am I just in my brain? Which is a whole 60 00:03:12.680 --> 00:03:15.879 other thing. Am I just my brain? Because I think 61 00:03:16.159 --> 00:03:19.919 for many people today, especially those who may not be 62 00:03:20.000 --> 00:03:24.360 coming from a religious perspective, there's an increasing interest in 63 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:28.960 how our brains work, and what we can understand about 64 00:03:28.960 --> 00:03:32.599 our brains from a scientific perspective relates to our sense 65 00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:38.759 of ourselves from a kind of human perspective, And I'd 66 00:03:38.800 --> 00:03:41.360 love to hear you talk a bit like first about 67 00:03:41.439 --> 00:03:44.840 how you got interested in that whole area of thought, 68 00:03:44.919 --> 00:03:47.439 and you know, both the science and the kind of 69 00:03:47.520 --> 00:03:51.080 non scientific questions around that, and then we'll talk a 70 00:03:51.120 --> 00:03:53.960 little bit about how, as two people who were following 71 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:57.560 us of Jesus, how we would think about these questions. So, yeah, first, 72 00:03:57.599 --> 00:03:59.400 do you want to give us a sense of what 73 00:03:59.560 --> 00:04:02.240 intrigued you about brain imaging in the first place. 74 00:04:02.599 --> 00:04:07.240 Well, I ended up so I did biochemistry undergraduate, which 75 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:10.840 I loved, and I knew that I wanted to do 76 00:04:11.560 --> 00:04:14.879 a PhD of some sort in the basic sciences, the 77 00:04:14.879 --> 00:04:19.800 biological sciences. But biochemistry was a little bit tedious, involved 78 00:04:19.800 --> 00:04:22.600 for petting tiny amounts of liquid from one test tube 79 00:04:22.639 --> 00:04:26.680 to another, and not terribly interesting, although obviously generated very 80 00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:30.720 interesting results. But brain imaging, actually I heard about a 81 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:34.040 friend of mine along the corridor was imaging something in 82 00:04:34.040 --> 00:04:37.399 this slightly archaic machine holding things together with duct tape 83 00:04:37.439 --> 00:04:40.560 and that sort of thing. Anyway, that got me fascinated 84 00:04:40.600 --> 00:04:43.079 as to this technique that could look inside the human 85 00:04:43.120 --> 00:04:46.680 body without cutting into it. And so I began to 86 00:04:46.759 --> 00:04:49.879 look for sort of PhDs in that sort of area, 87 00:04:49.920 --> 00:04:54.639 which took me via Switzerland to Cambridge to do this 88 00:04:54.720 --> 00:04:58.639 PhD in brain imaging. And this was at a time 89 00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:02.879 when functional I was just getting going. So it was 90 00:05:02.920 --> 00:05:07.360 the nineteen nineties, mid to late and yeah, and so 91 00:05:07.519 --> 00:05:11.199 people were studying all kinds of kind of fairly basic 92 00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:13.680 functions of the human brain and trying to map them 93 00:05:14.399 --> 00:05:17.759 using FM eye, which basically measures the signal from your 94 00:05:17.800 --> 00:05:21.319 blood which is downstream of what's happening in your neurons, 95 00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:24.279 and then you generate a statistical map and you can 96 00:05:24.319 --> 00:05:27.240 look at it and that sort of thing. So this 97 00:05:27.480 --> 00:05:30.759 was fascinating. It was a massive privilege to be working 98 00:05:30.800 --> 00:05:33.399 in that field at a time, as you say, when 99 00:05:33.879 --> 00:05:37.399 the sorts of discoveries that were being made was really accelerating, 100 00:05:37.959 --> 00:05:40.519 and it was a privilege to almost have first hand 101 00:05:40.720 --> 00:05:44.800 kind of experience in that time. I was already a 102 00:05:44.879 --> 00:05:48.279 Christian by that point. I hadn't always been actually changed 103 00:05:48.279 --> 00:05:51.959 my views about Christianity as an undergrad while I was 104 00:05:52.000 --> 00:05:55.639 studying bio chemistry, but by that point I was I 105 00:05:55.720 --> 00:05:57.240 was already a Christian. 106 00:05:57.480 --> 00:05:59.879 So go to pause you there, because I can't help myself, Sharon, 107 00:06:00.439 --> 00:06:03.199 I'd love for our listeners to hear more about how 108 00:06:03.240 --> 00:06:05.920 you changed your views when it came to Christianity. Did 109 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:07.279 you do undergrad at Cambridge as well? 110 00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.959 No, that was in Bristol. In Bristol, right, so yeah, yeah, 111 00:06:11.040 --> 00:06:13.519 so I arrived in Bristol. Well, maybe I should go 112 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:16.199 back a little further. So I've known for a long 113 00:06:16.199 --> 00:06:19.720 time that I wanted to be a scientist. I always 114 00:06:19.759 --> 00:06:23.079 did my maths homework first. I really didn't like writing 115 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:25.720 long essays. I know that's a little different to you. 116 00:06:27.319 --> 00:06:30.240 And so my A level biology teacher I really looked 117 00:06:30.319 --> 00:06:33.480 up to, and one day she handed me this book 118 00:06:33.639 --> 00:06:37.000 called The Selfish Gene by this person called Richard Dawkins. 119 00:06:37.040 --> 00:06:41.399 And I kind of read this book and essentially I 120 00:06:41.480 --> 00:06:44.000 didn't I don't know why. I didn't particularly kind of 121 00:06:44.079 --> 00:06:48.079 question it. I just sort of absorbed at this perspective 122 00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:50.519 that we were sort of gene machines and that our 123 00:06:50.600 --> 00:06:56.439 genes were essentially selfish, and that, yeah, purpose of life 124 00:06:56.519 --> 00:06:59.120 was in you know, the functioning of those genes, and 125 00:06:59.560 --> 00:07:02.439 not really too much more than that. And I arrived 126 00:07:02.480 --> 00:07:08.639 at university, I guess kind of agnostic. I had absorbed 127 00:07:08.720 --> 00:07:11.079 a lot of kind of views like the ones I've 128 00:07:11.160 --> 00:07:15.600 just espoused from like friends, from radio, from books, and 129 00:07:15.680 --> 00:07:18.959 so on, and also the view that to be a 130 00:07:19.040 --> 00:07:21.800 Christian or to believe in God was not compatible with 131 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:27.079 being a credible scientist, and so I arrived agnostic. But 132 00:07:27.160 --> 00:07:29.160 in the first week I was invited to an event 133 00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:33.120 called Gorilla Christian, which I ended up going to. I 134 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:36.439 was fascinated. Lots of people on my corridor were going 135 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:38.759 These were all taking place in my hall of residence, 136 00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:42.319 and I sat through this evening of people asking questions 137 00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:45.519 about God, and about halfway through the evening, I put 138 00:07:45.519 --> 00:07:47.720 my hand up and asked my own question, which was, 139 00:07:48.319 --> 00:07:51.240 surely you can't believe in God and be a credible scientist. 140 00:07:51.920 --> 00:07:54.279 And I was given an answer that basically opened up 141 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.800 a whole vista for me of possibility and of asking 142 00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.680 more questions and grilling more Christians. And it was along 143 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.360 the lines of, you know, if we asked someone to 144 00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.439 choose between these two reasons that that instagram exists, one 145 00:08:07.519 --> 00:08:11.360 because of the processes and programs that undergird it, and 146 00:08:11.399 --> 00:08:15.439 two because Kevin's sistrom exists. I mean, you know, you 147 00:08:15.480 --> 00:08:18.079 think about that for one second and realize we don't 148 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:21.680 need to choose between those two explanations for its existence. 149 00:08:21.720 --> 00:08:25.480 They both work together in complementary ways. And I've never 150 00:08:25.839 --> 00:08:28.920 it sounds strange, but I'd literally never heard anything like 151 00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:32.159 that before. This was rocket science for me, if you like. 152 00:08:32.279 --> 00:08:34.960 And it set me asking a lot more questions and 153 00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:38.639 really more Christians. And I did that for another eighteen months, 154 00:08:38.639 --> 00:08:41.759 and about around Easter time of my second year, I 155 00:08:41.799 --> 00:08:44.679 realized that and I've spent some time looking at the 156 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:47.799 person of Jesus Christ and the kind of the way 157 00:08:47.840 --> 00:08:51.360 that he was really different to anyone else I'd ever met, 158 00:08:51.399 --> 00:08:54.480 in terms of not just how he treated people, but 159 00:08:54.600 --> 00:08:57.279 the things he did in the world, and then his 160 00:08:57.320 --> 00:09:00.840 own death and rising from the dead as well well. 161 00:09:00.919 --> 00:09:03.519 And so I got to the point where I didn't 162 00:09:03.519 --> 00:09:06.639 have all of my questions answered, but I did feel 163 00:09:06.679 --> 00:09:09.840 like I had had enough questions answered to know that 164 00:09:10.240 --> 00:09:13.799 Jesus was real, that he was alive, and that he 165 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.240 knew me, and he cared about science, and so I 166 00:09:18.360 --> 00:09:22.240 decided to follow him. So I was twenty at that point. 167 00:09:22.799 --> 00:09:24.720 Okay, I love that, I will now let you continue. 168 00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:25.919 And what you were trying to tell us to tell 169 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:28.120 us before? So he was saying, as an undergrad you'd 170 00:09:28.120 --> 00:09:30.039 sort of been through that change of mine, and then 171 00:09:30.440 --> 00:09:33.600 as you were pursuing your PhD, you were getting interested 172 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:35.799 in how the brain works and what we can find 173 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:36.399 out about it. 174 00:09:36.679 --> 00:09:39.080 Yeah, so I so and so in terms of the 175 00:09:39.120 --> 00:09:41.399 areas of research, I mean I was doing some fairly 176 00:09:41.440 --> 00:09:45.480 on interesting methodological PhD that you know. I've actually written 177 00:09:46.000 --> 00:09:48.200 five books, isn't it. But I wouldn't recommend you read 178 00:09:48.240 --> 00:09:51.519 the first one. It's not really interesting at all. And so, 179 00:09:51.799 --> 00:09:54.960 and then I went on to do a postdoc in 180 00:09:55.039 --> 00:09:58.720 the well actually a brief time in pre and post 181 00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:02.080 surgical mapping, where we look at how brain regions are 182 00:10:02.120 --> 00:10:05.480 displaced by things like a tumor and how kind of 183 00:10:05.519 --> 00:10:08.399 function you know, how the brain is incredibly pastic and 184 00:10:08.919 --> 00:10:12.240 its function can kind of adapt depending on what's happening. 185 00:10:12.480 --> 00:10:14.279 And then I went on to do a post doc 186 00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.000 in the US the Medical College of Wisconsin looking at 187 00:10:18.080 --> 00:10:22.840 human cocaine abuse. And then that when we came back 188 00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:25.879 to the UK, that was for me to study this 189 00:10:25.919 --> 00:10:28.519 whole area that we're engaging in right now, really of 190 00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:32.480 how to respond to people's questions and there's sort of 191 00:10:32.519 --> 00:10:36.120 an irony that you know, questioning and grilling was really 192 00:10:36.159 --> 00:10:38.960 part of my own journey and it became part of 193 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:43.200 what I was then to go on to do as well. Yeah, 194 00:10:43.440 --> 00:10:48.159 so lots of different areas of neuroscience that I've sort 195 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:49.679 of been involved in. 196 00:10:51.120 --> 00:10:53.360 A few years ago, I was involved in an event 197 00:10:53.639 --> 00:10:55.600 at MIT, which is just down the street from where 198 00:10:55.759 --> 00:10:59.399 I live in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And in this event there 199 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:03.000 were two Ritian professors and to non Christian professors who 200 00:11:03.039 --> 00:11:05.440 were talking about what they believed and why, and I'll 201 00:11:05.480 --> 00:11:08.360 never forget one of the non Christian professors, who identified 202 00:11:08.360 --> 00:11:11.320 as agnostic, said this. He said, our consciousness and our 203 00:11:11.320 --> 00:11:14.679 self awareness create the illusion that we have some sort 204 00:11:14.720 --> 00:11:19.200 of special ego power, some inis, some unique existence, but 205 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:22.039 in reality, we are nothing but bones, tissues, gelatinous membranes, 206 00:11:22.039 --> 00:11:25.799 electrical impulses, and chemicals. He said, we are stuff like donuts. 207 00:11:26.399 --> 00:11:29.080 And I know that's sort of pulling on various different 208 00:11:29.080 --> 00:11:34.000 threads there, but I'm curious for your reflections on whether 209 00:11:34.759 --> 00:11:38.639 those statements are ones that are legitimated by science, or 210 00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:41.879 whether those statements come from only a kind of reductive 211 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.559 view of science that says that we it's almost like 212 00:11:45.600 --> 00:11:47.919 we have a kind of illusion of our own selfness, 213 00:11:48.120 --> 00:11:52.360 of our own existence that were not actually even individual 214 00:11:52.440 --> 00:11:55.840 thinking agents in our own right from a scientific perspective. 215 00:11:56.240 --> 00:11:59.360 So this whole area, to me is really fascinating in 216 00:11:59.480 --> 00:12:03.960 terms of how the boundary between science and philosophy is 217 00:12:04.000 --> 00:12:07.559 sort of crossed all the time, almost without us realizing, 218 00:12:07.600 --> 00:12:11.440 and what you end up having is kind of philosophical 219 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:15.399 statements being made by scientists that have the appearance of 220 00:12:15.440 --> 00:12:19.919 being scientific, but actually what the science can show us, 221 00:12:20.360 --> 00:12:23.559 and what is a really important part of this whole conversation, 222 00:12:23.679 --> 00:12:25.559 is that we don't just have a brain. We also 223 00:12:25.600 --> 00:12:28.559 have a mind. So you have a brain with all 224 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:33.000 of its neurons and chemicals that you can measure objectively 225 00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.639 whether someone wants you to or not, you can measure 226 00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:38.559 them in somebody. But you also have a mind. This 227 00:12:38.639 --> 00:12:41.679 thing that the professor that you mentioned was saying is 228 00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:43.840 a losory. We can discuss that in a minute. But 229 00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:48.480 you have that internal sense of self that your thoughts, 230 00:12:48.559 --> 00:12:52.840 feelings and motions, memories, decisions. As Thomas Neagil put it, 231 00:12:52.879 --> 00:12:56.120 there's something that it is to be you. And I 232 00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:00.399 guess the conversation hinges around what's the relationship between mind 233 00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:03.320 and brain. But the most that the science can tell 234 00:13:03.360 --> 00:13:06.759 you is that they're connected. It can only speak to correlation. 235 00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:09.720 It can't speak to anything beyond that. You've got all 236 00:13:09.720 --> 00:13:14.039 these different philosophical theories about maybe the brain generates the mind, 237 00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:18.679 or maybe mind is its own independent, immaterial substance and 238 00:13:18.759 --> 00:13:22.000 brain is physical and they interact. Or maybe it's that 239 00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:27.240 actually everything has conscious properties in it, And these are 240 00:13:27.279 --> 00:13:31.720 all different philosophical views that people impose upon the science. 241 00:13:31.759 --> 00:13:34.559 But the science only gets you to connection. It gets 242 00:13:34.559 --> 00:13:37.679 you to correlation. If you put someone in an MRI 243 00:13:37.919 --> 00:13:41.320 scanner and give them a task that uses their mind, 244 00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:44.679 say they're working memory or something, you will see networks 245 00:13:44.679 --> 00:13:47.600 in the brain light up. So clearly these things are connected, 246 00:13:47.639 --> 00:13:51.919 and you know, look at child development or neurodegeneration or whatever. 247 00:13:52.559 --> 00:13:57.200 But in order to impose more than that, you actually 248 00:13:57.200 --> 00:13:59.960 are stepping out of science and into philosophy. And that's 249 00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:04.559 what this professor was doing in saying that the consciousness 250 00:14:04.600 --> 00:14:07.279 is an illusion of our brains, tricking us into thinking 251 00:14:07.320 --> 00:14:09.720 that there's something that it is to be us. And 252 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:12.759 of course there are some people that take that view. 253 00:14:12.759 --> 00:14:15.759 There are many who are agnostics and atheists that don't 254 00:14:15.799 --> 00:14:18.120 take that view. They actually think we need a more 255 00:14:18.159 --> 00:14:22.759 persuasive explanation for the sense of self that it seems 256 00:14:22.799 --> 00:14:25.720 to be so real. And of course, if you begin 257 00:14:25.799 --> 00:14:28.679 to say that the very ground of your being is illusory, 258 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:32.279 then how can you place a weight on absolutely anything else. 259 00:14:32.960 --> 00:14:35.559 And in fact, the viewpoint itself is subject to the 260 00:14:35.600 --> 00:14:40.440 same state of illusion as the phenomenon that you're describing, 261 00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:45.519 and so it becomes impossible to say anything meaningful. And 262 00:14:45.639 --> 00:14:50.600 so obviously there are many atheist philosophers that would deeply 263 00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:54.840 question that that view and say that we're not bound 264 00:14:54.960 --> 00:14:57.360 to that. I think there are more persuasive views with 265 00:14:57.440 --> 00:14:58.799 more explanatory power. 266 00:15:00.240 --> 00:15:03.559 Yeah, yeah, I'm sure you've come across Oard Louis who's 267 00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:06.639 based at Oxford in your travels, as it were, And 268 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:11.799 I love how he expresses what sometimes scientists do or 269 00:15:11.840 --> 00:15:14.840 people speaking in the name of science from a sort 270 00:15:14.840 --> 00:15:16.919 of atheist or agnostic perspective, which is what you call 271 00:15:17.000 --> 00:15:19.240 sort of nothing buttery. You know, when you hear the 272 00:15:19.240 --> 00:15:22.720 words we are nothing but X, Y or Z. Actually, 273 00:15:22.759 --> 00:15:25.240 often that's going beyond what science can really tell us, 274 00:15:25.279 --> 00:15:27.399 because science can It may well be the case that 275 00:15:27.440 --> 00:15:30.600 science can only tell us about these sort of scientifically 276 00:15:30.600 --> 00:15:33.200 measurable elements of us. But that's not the same as 277 00:15:33.200 --> 00:15:35.480 saying science proves that we are nothing but these things 278 00:15:35.600 --> 00:15:38.240 that we can actually have it understanding that, like science 279 00:15:38.279 --> 00:15:40.159 isn't the right tool for answering all the questions that 280 00:15:40.159 --> 00:15:41.519 we might have about. 281 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:43.759 Yeah, so I would actually argue, and I argue it 282 00:15:43.799 --> 00:15:46.720 in my book, Am I Just My Brain? That it's 283 00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:49.759 within science that we see that we're more than just 284 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.360 on neurons. There are all kinds of really fascinating instances 285 00:15:54.399 --> 00:15:59.120 in clinical medicine that show that we're actually highly complex things. 286 00:15:59.200 --> 00:16:02.720 Like you know, there's a small proportion of adults that 287 00:16:02.759 --> 00:16:06.559 have survived childhood hydron carefully water on the brain, where 288 00:16:06.559 --> 00:16:10.120 they're basically missing around ninety percent of their brain tissue, 289 00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:14.679 and yet they are fully functioning healthy adults. Or we 290 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.639 could look at there's a fascinating phenomenon that's really coming 291 00:16:18.720 --> 00:16:22.320 through more and more these days called terminal lucidity, where 292 00:16:22.480 --> 00:16:26.200 people with an advanced state of neurodegeneration have a very 293 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.759 temporary but very real return to the self towards the 294 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:33.360 end of their life, often just before they die. And 295 00:16:33.399 --> 00:16:36.159 of course there's the phenomenon of near death experiences which 296 00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:38.879 you know, some might say is controversial, some say is 297 00:16:38.919 --> 00:16:42.039 really fascinating, where people have been declared dead on the 298 00:16:42.080 --> 00:16:46.759 operating table and yet have been resuscitated and come around 299 00:16:46.799 --> 00:16:50.120 to say that they were actually vividly conscious and heard 300 00:16:50.200 --> 00:16:53.759 them being declared, themselves being declared. So you know, that's 301 00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:55.960 an instance of you know, when their brain has died, 302 00:16:56.000 --> 00:16:59.519 what happens to the conscious mind At the very least, 303 00:16:59.519 --> 00:17:02.720 it's fast. And you know, if we are just our brains, 304 00:17:02.840 --> 00:17:05.400 none of these phenomena make any sense at all. And 305 00:17:05.440 --> 00:17:09.119 so perhaps we need a more sophisticated and more nuanced, 306 00:17:09.119 --> 00:17:14.240 more complex way of describing human beings. That I actually 307 00:17:14.240 --> 00:17:17.640 think that the Christian worldview helps us with a lot. 308 00:17:17.799 --> 00:17:20.440 You know, right at the beginning of the Bible, in 309 00:17:20.440 --> 00:17:24.319 the Book of Genesis, it describes not necessarily literally, but 310 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.759 the formation of human beings that is not in conflict 311 00:17:28.799 --> 00:17:32.240 with the science, I don't think. And it says, you know, 312 00:17:32.279 --> 00:17:34.640 that the Lord God formed the man from the dust 313 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:37.960 of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath 314 00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:40.839 of life, and the man became a living being. And 315 00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:43.799 so we see, you know, that we are a combination 316 00:17:43.920 --> 00:17:46.839 of dust and breath, and the word for breath is 317 00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:51.920 spirit or breath, and the product of those two things 318 00:17:52.000 --> 00:17:55.000 is a living nefche. And the word nephesh is a soul. 319 00:17:55.599 --> 00:17:58.960 Now we often get soul think of it a bit differently, 320 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:02.480 but actually soul is a very holistic term in Hebrew. 321 00:18:02.839 --> 00:18:06.599 So human beings are whole, but they have different component 322 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:10.400 parts and they're complex, and that seems to match with 323 00:18:10.799 --> 00:18:13.920 how life seems to work. I don't know, you know, life, 324 00:18:14.200 --> 00:18:17.400 human beings seem to be hard to box, you know, 325 00:18:17.559 --> 00:18:20.720 hard to pin down, and they do strange things, and 326 00:18:21.319 --> 00:18:23.480 we need a model that helps us with that. 327 00:18:24.039 --> 00:18:26.759 Yeah. Yeah, I think one of the things that often 328 00:18:26.799 --> 00:18:31.400 people aren't aware, perhaps especially if they are not Christians themselves, 329 00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:34.839 is that the message of Christianity is not that if 330 00:18:34.839 --> 00:18:37.680 you put your trust in Jesus that you will then 331 00:18:37.799 --> 00:18:40.480 kind of live in disembodied you know, your soul will 332 00:18:40.519 --> 00:18:44.240 kind of float off into disembodied bliss in this ethereal 333 00:18:44.279 --> 00:18:48.680 place called heaven forever, but that actually, when Jesus comes 334 00:18:48.680 --> 00:18:51.960 back to this earth, that he will call us into 335 00:18:52.039 --> 00:18:55.799 resurrection life with actual physical bodies. Now we don't have 336 00:18:55.839 --> 00:18:58.039 all the details of what those bodies will be like, 337 00:18:58.119 --> 00:19:00.359 because we know, on the one hand, we have the 338 00:19:00.359 --> 00:19:03.920 example of Jesus's body, which after his resurrection was enough 339 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:06.880 similar to his body before that people could recognize him. 340 00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:10.759 He still had the scars, the nail sort of prints 341 00:19:10.359 --> 00:19:12.799 in his hands, and the hole in his side where 342 00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:15.440 a Roman soldier had sort of shrubbed as his spirit 343 00:19:15.440 --> 00:19:17.720 in there, but he was also able to kind of 344 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:20.599 walk through walls essentially, So we you know, I think 345 00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:22.640 we have so much that we don't know about what 346 00:19:22.680 --> 00:19:26.799 these resurrection bodies will be like. But we also have 347 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:30.319 the repeated sort of assurance in the New Testament that 348 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.799 we will, if we've trustedes will be raised to a 349 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.279 kind of physical existence, not just the kind of spiritual 350 00:19:37.440 --> 00:19:39.759 existence floating off that actually are kind of our soul 351 00:19:39.759 --> 00:19:41.680 and our body as we belong together. 352 00:19:41.839 --> 00:19:44.759 Yeah. Absolutely, and often the thought of it being a 353 00:19:44.759 --> 00:19:47.759 bit ghostly floaty is not a pleasant one people that 354 00:19:47.759 --> 00:19:50.160 that feels that that's not necessarily somewhere I'd want to be. 355 00:19:50.319 --> 00:19:54.440 But imagine a reality that's every bit as real as 356 00:19:54.519 --> 00:19:57.480 this that the one that we have now, but you know, 357 00:19:57.599 --> 00:20:01.720 a million times more beautiful and more And now that's 358 00:20:01.720 --> 00:20:04.279 something I can get on board with, you know, rather 359 00:20:04.359 --> 00:20:07.599 than a slightly ethereal something that doesn't really have any 360 00:20:07.640 --> 00:20:11.279 bearing on this life. But the thing that's also really 361 00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.960 amazing for the Christian you know, Jesus says, you know, 362 00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:19.880 that eternal life begins when you turn to him in 363 00:20:19.920 --> 00:20:23.119 this life. That he says that this is eternal life, 364 00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:26.599 that they may know you the only God and Jesus 365 00:20:26.640 --> 00:20:30.440 whom you have sent. In other words, that actually the 366 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:35.279 life that will carry on beyond death begins now. It 367 00:20:35.319 --> 00:20:40.039 becomes more embodied in the future, but it actually starts now, 368 00:20:40.119 --> 00:20:46.160 and that that's amazing. And yeah, I definitely experience the 369 00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:50.240 reality of that life being breathed into kind of dead 370 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:54.680 places in my own life as a student, even in 371 00:20:54.720 --> 00:20:58.200 just like really mundane stuff like being a bit of 372 00:20:58.200 --> 00:21:03.000 a workaholic, you know, and just trusting that God was 373 00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:05.000 going to get me through something that I didn't think 374 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.519 I could get myself through the first verses of Psalm 375 00:21:08.680 --> 00:21:11.519 twenty seven are some of the first words that I read. 376 00:21:11.960 --> 00:21:14.880 The Lord is my Light and my salvation. Whom shall 377 00:21:14.880 --> 00:21:17.880 I fear? The Lord is a stronghold of my life, 378 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:21.319 of whom shall I be afraid? And I just remember 379 00:21:21.400 --> 00:21:24.759 really clinging to those that actually, I've entrusted myself to 380 00:21:24.759 --> 00:21:28.279 a being who is bigger than myself, and that's actually 381 00:21:28.279 --> 00:21:31.000 incredibly comforting. It's not just all on me to get 382 00:21:31.000 --> 00:21:34.880 myself through this. There's someone who's, if you like, following 383 00:21:34.920 --> 00:21:37.839 me or walking with me, or has got me. And 384 00:21:38.759 --> 00:21:42.799 that was amazing. Yeah, that eternal life is really practical 385 00:21:42.839 --> 00:21:43.640 and really real. 386 00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:47.359 What would you say to somebody listening to you who said, 387 00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:51.279 you know what, this just confirms my understanding that Christianity 388 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:54.319 is a crutch for people who can't deal with the 389 00:21:54.359 --> 00:21:57.039 realities of life. You can't deal with, you know, the 390 00:21:57.079 --> 00:21:59.720 brute facts of science that are telling us that actually 391 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.039 there is no meaning and purpose in our lives and 392 00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:06.480 don't have the courage to make a purpose for themselves. 393 00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:09.920 That people like you and me are imagining this god 394 00:22:09.960 --> 00:22:12.200 in the sky who has a purpose for our lives, 395 00:22:12.319 --> 00:22:15.200 and it's really just sort of delusion and an emotional crutch. 396 00:22:15.640 --> 00:22:19.160 Yeah, yeah, it's a really valid question. I would actually 397 00:22:19.160 --> 00:22:22.279 say the argument for crutch works both ways. You could 398 00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:27.000 also argue that the atheist or the agnostic has refused 399 00:22:27.680 --> 00:22:31.079 or rather you choose as not to believe in God, 400 00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:33.759 or has persuaded that God doesn't exist as a way 401 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.240