WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.480 So you keep hearing nobody wants to work anymore because 2 00:00:04.960 --> 00:00:07.799 you see these jobs that aren't filled, but they're not 3 00:00:08.000 --> 00:00:13.480 filed because there are fewer people of working age are 4 00:00:13.480 --> 00:00:16.399 being born. You know, birth rates are going down. The 5 00:00:16.600 --> 00:00:19.519 population is great, you get more people like me. For 6 00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:22.879 a while, we were very restrictive with immigration right under 7 00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:27.239 a prencident Trumps and that close. You know, that restricted 8 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:31.039 the pool of available workers. So that was the real issue. 9 00:00:31.120 --> 00:00:35.799 There weren't enough workers. But immediately people start moralizing about it. Oh, 10 00:00:35.840 --> 00:00:38.520 the problem is people's work at did I find that 11 00:00:38.920 --> 00:00:43.280 fascinating because based on my research, I don't think that's 12 00:00:43.719 --> 00:00:46.079 the issue at all. You may not want to work 13 00:00:46.159 --> 00:00:51.119 any particular job that only pays minimum wage and is 14 00:00:51.200 --> 00:00:54.880 dirty or dangerous, or has weird hours or something. They 15 00:00:54.920 --> 00:00:56.840 may want to work at a better job, but that 16 00:00:56.880 --> 00:00:58.320 doesn't mean they don't want to work at all. 17 00:01:07.879 --> 00:01:10.319 Hello everybody, and welcome to this anthe life. I'm excited 18 00:01:10.359 --> 00:01:12.079 to have you all here today. I'm Adam gm All 19 00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:15.359 your host is always and I'm really excited to talk 20 00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:18.359 with Claudia Strauss today because, on the one hand, we 21 00:01:18.439 --> 00:01:22.079 know that our nature and ideas around work are changing, right, 22 00:01:22.120 --> 00:01:24.519 what does work mean to folks today? And that we 23 00:01:24.599 --> 00:01:27.239 have the rise of remote working. We've had a pandemic 24 00:01:27.280 --> 00:01:29.480 that has brought the rise of remote working and changing that. 25 00:01:29.560 --> 00:01:32.239 And then there's lots of contingent labor, gig work, things 26 00:01:32.239 --> 00:01:33.719 like that. So you know, do I have a nine 27 00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:35.359 to five? Do I have a forty hour work week? 28 00:01:35.680 --> 00:01:37.319 All these things are kind of changing and what work 29 00:01:37.400 --> 00:01:39.760 might mean to us. But the funny thing is that 30 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.879 the narratives of the kind of national myths that we 31 00:01:42.920 --> 00:01:46.000 have around what work means are changing a lot much 32 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:48.519 much more slowly. And I think that's something that is 33 00:01:48.560 --> 00:01:50.439 interesting that we can kind of dive into to get 34 00:01:50.480 --> 00:01:51.000 a sense with. 35 00:01:51.719 --> 00:01:52.519 But I'm really excited. 36 00:01:52.519 --> 00:01:54.920 You know, Claudius Stress, you are an anthropologist, you know, 37 00:01:54.959 --> 00:01:56.840 so I always a good talk with the fellow anthropologist 38 00:01:57.480 --> 00:02:00.480 and a prof over at Fitzer College. And you have 39 00:02:00.560 --> 00:02:02.239 a I think a really exciting and important new book 40 00:02:02.239 --> 00:02:05.079 out that's called What Work Means Beyond the Puritian work Ethic. 41 00:02:05.120 --> 00:02:07.480 And besides being a nerd that you know, I like 42 00:02:07.519 --> 00:02:08.960 this idea of the purity and work ethic to think 43 00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:12.120 about with Max Weber, I love how your work helps 44 00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.039 us explode and think about that. So let's we're going 45 00:02:14.080 --> 00:02:15.800 to dive into all those things. But first want to say, Claudia, 46 00:02:15.800 --> 00:02:17.360 thanks for joining me on the podcast today. 47 00:02:17.599 --> 00:02:19.759 Well, and and thank you so much for having me. 48 00:02:19.840 --> 00:02:23.159 I'm really excited to talk to another anthropologist, right and. 49 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:25.800 Alway feels kind of dangerous, doesn't it. 50 00:02:26.599 --> 00:02:28.319 I think we are a dangerous profession. 51 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:30.840 Yeah, we weed t shirts that say that. I think 52 00:02:30.879 --> 00:02:31.039 you know. 53 00:02:32.280 --> 00:02:33.680 So one of the things you know we're kind of 54 00:02:33.680 --> 00:02:35.879 staying up top cluty, is that your your research dives into, 55 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.039 I think importantly, how Americans perceive their jobs right, perceive 56 00:02:39.159 --> 00:02:40.199 work for themselves. 57 00:02:40.240 --> 00:02:41.919 And you did a lot of really really. 58 00:02:41.759 --> 00:02:45.080 Interesting research talking with folks who are also kind of 59 00:02:45.120 --> 00:02:47.159 out of work or long term unemployed kind of figuring 60 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:49.400 out that process for themselves. And I thought that was 61 00:02:49.400 --> 00:02:52.400 a really compelling way to frame your conversation. So I'd 62 00:02:52.439 --> 00:02:53.840 love to kind of kick off with getting a sense 63 00:02:53.879 --> 00:02:56.039 of why start there? Why do you find yourself starting 64 00:02:56.360 --> 00:02:58.360 talking with folks that are that are unemployed or kind 65 00:02:58.360 --> 00:03:00.759 of in this long term unemployment moment trying to figure 66 00:03:00.840 --> 00:03:01.960 themselves and their work out. 67 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:06.159 Well, it was a moment following the Great Recession when 68 00:03:06.360 --> 00:03:09.919 a lot of people were unemployed and unemployed for a 69 00:03:09.960 --> 00:03:12.719 little time in the not that they wanted to be. 70 00:03:12.919 --> 00:03:16.840 They were looking for work. I was practically everybody I 71 00:03:16.919 --> 00:03:20.199 was talking to I found because they were looking for work. 72 00:03:20.400 --> 00:03:22.599 But this was the time, and it's a very different 73 00:03:22.639 --> 00:03:24.639 labor market then now, So you have to cast your 74 00:03:24.680 --> 00:03:28.960 mind back ten years or more to a time when 75 00:03:29.080 --> 00:03:31.639 the unemployment rate in southern California where I did my 76 00:03:31.759 --> 00:03:36.639 research was over ten percent, when there were three job 77 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:41.159 seekers for every job opening, which is opposite now now 78 00:03:41.400 --> 00:03:43.879 there's less than one person looking for a job for 79 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:48.000 every job opening. So it was a very different moment. 80 00:03:49.719 --> 00:03:51.960 That's why I was talking to people were out of work, 81 00:03:52.039 --> 00:03:54.840 because there were a lot of them. And the thing is, 82 00:03:54.879 --> 00:03:57.240 when you're out of work and for a little time 83 00:03:57.280 --> 00:03:59.879 out of work, but you want to work, it makes 84 00:03:59.879 --> 00:04:03.000 you no one usually reflect it about what work means. 85 00:04:03.120 --> 00:04:05.240 So it was a really good time to catch people, 86 00:04:05.360 --> 00:04:08.360 both because I had a well tride and because they 87 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:12.080 were thinking a lot about what their jobs met to them, 88 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:14.520 what they wanted in the next job, and what they 89 00:04:14.520 --> 00:04:16.920 would do differently maybe with their lives. 90 00:04:17.079 --> 00:04:19.600 Yeah, and I think that's such an important point. 91 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:21.680 Both remember, like if we're getting a sense of like 92 00:04:21.720 --> 00:04:23.920 where we are in history, but then also reflecting of 93 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:25.160 what that means for us today. So I think that 94 00:04:25.720 --> 00:04:28.199 is a really interesting and important distinction to think about. 95 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:30.839 One that if we're seeing which which you know, almost 96 00:04:30.879 --> 00:04:32.519 feels crazy to think about, right, that there's there's three 97 00:04:32.519 --> 00:04:34.319 folks for every one job that might be out there, 98 00:04:34.319 --> 00:04:36.160 and now we're kind of seeing an opposite problem, right, 99 00:04:36.160 --> 00:04:40.639 that there's more work than workers. It's interesting because in 100 00:04:40.680 --> 00:04:42.879 between both of those, right, we might still see narratives 101 00:04:42.920 --> 00:04:45.240 from employers or even even folks themselves looking for work 102 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:47.680 around the you know, we might think of it as 103 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:49.560 a moral imperative, right that either like you know, nobody 104 00:04:49.560 --> 00:04:52.240 wants to work anymore today, which is really funny to 105 00:04:52.240 --> 00:04:53.680 look at research of that and see that people have 106 00:04:53.680 --> 00:04:56.360 been saying that since like eighteen fifty, like literally a newspapers, 107 00:04:56.360 --> 00:04:58.319 no one wants to work anymore. You know, it depends 108 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:00.480 on what the work is though, right, which I think 109 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:03.079 we can dig into. But then on the other side too, 110 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:04.800 that there's more like I want to work, but I 111 00:05:04.839 --> 00:05:07.160 can't write. But there might be a slow perception that, oh, 112 00:05:07.199 --> 00:05:09.759 these people don't want to work, right from from employers 113 00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:12.519 or from folks, and so like, what's what's happening there? 114 00:05:12.519 --> 00:05:15.639 Like there is this kind of weird moral tug narrative 115 00:05:15.680 --> 00:05:17.759 happening of that one should be working but can't or 116 00:05:18.000 --> 00:05:21.199 you know, doesn't want to, but should be. Like what's 117 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:24.399 happening here in the American psyche about like what what 118 00:05:24.560 --> 00:05:26.279 should we be doing around work? 119 00:05:26.839 --> 00:05:30.399 Yeah, and I think I think that rapid shift. It's 120 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:34.399 taking people while to realize what's going on. So, yes, 121 00:05:34.480 --> 00:05:39.439 you keep hearing nobody wants to work anymore because you 122 00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:42.720 see these jobs that aren't filled, but they're not filed 123 00:05:42.759 --> 00:05:48.480 because there are fewer people of working age are being born. 124 00:05:48.680 --> 00:05:53.439 You know, birth rates are going down. The population is great. 125 00:05:53.600 --> 00:05:56.480 You get more people like me. You know, baby Bowers, 126 00:05:56.519 --> 00:05:57.000 I'm great too. 127 00:05:57.000 --> 00:05:57.480 You just can't tell. 128 00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:03.360 For a while, we were very restrictive with immigration right 129 00:06:03.560 --> 00:06:08.160 under Princident Trump and that close you know, that restricted 130 00:06:08.199 --> 00:06:12.360 the pool of available workers. So that was the real issue. 131 00:06:12.439 --> 00:06:17.040 There weren't enough workers. But immediately people start moralizing about it, Oh, 132 00:06:17.160 --> 00:06:20.199 the problem is people's work at Did I find that 133 00:06:20.240 --> 00:06:24.759 fascin because based on my research, I don't think that 134 00:06:24.759 --> 00:06:27.160 that's the issue at all. Hequal may not want to 135 00:06:27.199 --> 00:06:31.839 work any particular job that only pays minimum wage and 136 00:06:32.360 --> 00:06:35.759 is dirty or dangerous or has weird hours or something. 137 00:06:36.040 --> 00:06:38.040 They may want to work at a better job, but 138 00:06:38.079 --> 00:06:39.639 that doesn't mean they don't want to work at all. 139 00:06:40.399 --> 00:06:40.519 Mm. 140 00:06:41.199 --> 00:06:43.439 Yeah, And I think that's that's such an important point too, 141 00:06:43.480 --> 00:06:45.279 because and you kind of I think said a key 142 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:47.160 idea there too, in terms of like what is the 143 00:06:47.160 --> 00:06:49.079 the ones work ethic, right, like what do I want 144 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:50.639 to do with my time and what kind of work 145 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:53.120 do I want to do? But you know, I think 146 00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:55.279 you also importantly point out that that there is when 147 00:06:55.319 --> 00:06:57.759 we kind of gloss over in that narrative that we 148 00:06:57.879 --> 00:06:59.399 missed this idea that it's like not that I don't 149 00:06:59.399 --> 00:07:00.680 want to work, I just don't want to work this 150 00:07:00.839 --> 00:07:03.920 kind of job or that type of labor for multiple reasons, 151 00:07:03.920 --> 00:07:06.680 which you know, and that matters, you know, because it 152 00:07:06.720 --> 00:07:08.480 isn't just a do or do not want to work? 153 00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:11.040 And this gets into you know, we can kind of 154 00:07:11.040 --> 00:07:12.759 put our theory hats on for a second two and 155 00:07:12.879 --> 00:07:14.639 I think this is helpful to think about. We have 156 00:07:14.680 --> 00:07:17.439 these these ideas of kind of laborist and post laborist 157 00:07:17.519 --> 00:07:19.879 or productivist kind of frameworks of like what we should 158 00:07:19.879 --> 00:07:22.639 be doing for work, And I found this elucidating, like 159 00:07:22.680 --> 00:07:24.959 to kind of help make sense of why we're seeing 160 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:27.560 this disjuncture and like kind of discomfortable. 161 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:27.519 Talking about this. 162 00:07:27.560 --> 00:07:29.120 So can you tell me a little bit about this 163 00:07:29.199 --> 00:07:31.879 in terms of like the laborist and post laboris perspectives 164 00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:33.959 and how is that shaping our discourse around. 165 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:35.959 Well, I'm really happy to talk about it. I find 166 00:07:36.000 --> 00:07:39.639 this really fascinating because when I think you said putting 167 00:07:39.639 --> 00:07:43.680 our theory hats on, I think social theorists and also activists, 168 00:07:43.680 --> 00:07:47.120 political activists, even on the left. We often think of 169 00:07:47.240 --> 00:07:51.399 left right differences, but these are differences among progressives on 170 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:54.240 the left. There are two very different ways of thinking 171 00:07:54.240 --> 00:08:00.519 about work and organizing organizing around it. The class, you know, Marxism, 172 00:08:00.879 --> 00:08:05.959 workers are central. You know, you've got a heroic working person, 173 00:08:06.160 --> 00:08:14.000 and that's the idea is we want a full employment economy. 174 00:08:14.279 --> 00:08:19.000 So it's organizing to make sure that everybody who is 175 00:08:19.079 --> 00:08:24.040 able to work can work at a good wage. But 176 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:27.439 the push there is towards full employment. I think one 177 00:08:27.439 --> 00:08:31.600 thing that's uh, doctor Martin Luther King his Things March 178 00:08:31.639 --> 00:08:35.919 on Washington was on March for jobs and free He 179 00:08:36.120 --> 00:08:38.720 very much believed in this that what we want is 180 00:08:38.759 --> 00:08:44.120 for everybody to have good employment. But there's this other 181 00:08:44.200 --> 00:08:48.080 approach on the left, a post work approach, where the 182 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:52.879 idea is work is only enriching the owners at capital. 183 00:08:53.159 --> 00:08:56.519 Our labor is only enriching the owners at capital. Why 184 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:00.600 is there the social imperative to do that when we 185 00:09:01.240 --> 00:09:06.080 figure out a different kind of economy where be where 186 00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:09.639 people are so engaged in wage labor but much less 187 00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:15.200 of it. And so it becomes very interesting when you 188 00:09:15.200 --> 00:09:18.320 think about the future of work. Now, I don't know 189 00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.200 what's whether all the predictions of high levels of technological 190 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:24.399 unemployment are going to come true, And I'd be curious 191 00:09:24.399 --> 00:09:27.039 to know from the other guests you've talked to or 192 00:09:27.080 --> 00:09:30.159 your thinking is about that. So I'm not making any 193 00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:34.480 productions whatsoever. But people circulate right and this, and but 194 00:09:34.559 --> 00:09:37.480 what's interesting is from these two perceptives, if you start 195 00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:41.639 worrying about being displaced by the robots, the laborists, the 196 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:44.240 what to believe in the dignity of work, the importance 197 00:09:44.320 --> 00:09:49.320 of work, the centrality of it, that your social benefits, 198 00:09:49.519 --> 00:09:53.399 anything you get from society should be dependent on either 199 00:09:53.519 --> 00:09:57.480 working or not currently being able to work, maybe not 200 00:09:57.559 --> 00:10:01.480 to work in the future when they think about a 201 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.720 future of robots seeking jobs. The ideas we can't let 202 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:08.879 that hat. We need to make work a central part 203 00:10:09.000 --> 00:10:11.879 of a good life. Wage. You know, when I'm talking, well, 204 00:10:11.919 --> 00:10:13.960 we're talking to work here, we always mean wage work, right, 205 00:10:14.039 --> 00:10:16.279 lots of things we can do that require effort, but 206 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:20.919 we're wage. Whereas the post work theorists, the post work 207 00:10:21.039 --> 00:10:24.240 organizers are saying, bring on the robots, this is great. 208 00:10:24.720 --> 00:10:29.080 This is kind of future we want is longness. Obviously 209 00:10:29.120 --> 00:10:33.120 people have to live. But you know then they would say, well, 210 00:10:33.320 --> 00:10:35.600 the government's got to figure you know, the the massive 211 00:10:35.639 --> 00:10:38.960 political revolts in our hands if the government doesn't somehow 212 00:10:39.000 --> 00:10:44.320 keep people alive. So those are two very different approaches. Now, 213 00:10:44.360 --> 00:10:46.480 I have to say, the way I talked about it 214 00:10:46.559 --> 00:10:49.960 might make me sound like on the post work side 215 00:10:50.399 --> 00:10:53.480 fixed people I walk to. I'm actually kind of in between. 216 00:10:55.000 --> 00:10:57.200 I think, you know, and this is something we can 217 00:10:57.240 --> 00:11:00.440 talk about. I don't. I'm not all workshild the most 218 00:11:00.440 --> 00:11:02.840 important thing you're doing and taking up your whole life. 219 00:11:02.879 --> 00:11:06.440 The people I talked to didn't want that, but I'm not. 220 00:11:07.360 --> 00:11:09.720 Work has no intrints to value people don't want to 221 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:12.159 be doing it, and if they could get them, and 222 00:11:12.200 --> 00:11:13.960 if they had some other way to make a loving 223 00:11:14.279 --> 00:11:16.639 you know, they wouldn't know. The people I talked to, 224 00:11:17.519 --> 00:11:19.679 most of them wanted to go back to work and 225 00:11:19.720 --> 00:11:23.039 even talked about enjoying work, having spot at work. 226 00:11:23.440 --> 00:11:27.039 I thought that was one of the most interesting parts 227 00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:29.000 also about your research finding too, is around this idea 228 00:11:29.039 --> 00:11:31.480 of enjoyment and fun because on the one hand, I 229 00:11:31.559 --> 00:11:33.039 think it is like very helpful to have these two 230 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:36.240 framings in terms of when we see both employees wage 231 00:11:36.240 --> 00:11:40.200 workers people and then also business owners talking about what 232 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.039 the labor market needs to be and if I'm looking 233 00:11:42.039 --> 00:11:44.240 for work, orf I need to find more employees, you 234 00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:46.240 know what that is? Like it's important for us to 235 00:11:46.279 --> 00:11:48.720 understand where they're coming from, you know, you know, as 236 00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:50.279 we like exanthra politics, just be able to not say 237 00:11:50.279 --> 00:11:52.120 that they're going to be specifically this one thing to 238 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:53.879 your point, like they're going to be either labors or 239 00:11:53.919 --> 00:11:55.879 post laborers, but they can be a blend. But those 240 00:11:55.919 --> 00:11:58.120 do help us get a sense in terms of someone's 241 00:11:58.200 --> 00:12:00.679 kind of potentially background mental contact to write their mental 242 00:12:00.720 --> 00:12:02.919 models of like why I should be looking for the 243 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:04.399 kind of work that I'm doing and why I should 244 00:12:04.399 --> 00:12:06.960 be working this way, or you know, why my employees 245 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:07.679 need to be thinking. 246 00:12:07.519 --> 00:12:08.600 About work a certain way. 247 00:12:08.639 --> 00:12:10.039 And this is why I think this is an important 248 00:12:10.039 --> 00:12:12.559 conversation because it helps us both get a sense of 249 00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:14.840 you know, the kind of employee side, but then also 250 00:12:14.960 --> 00:12:18.440 the the often implicit employer side too. Right, you know 251 00:12:18.559 --> 00:12:21.440 when we said the thing above in terms of nobody 252 00:12:21.480 --> 00:12:23.360 wants to work anymore, right, this is an anxiety often 253 00:12:23.399 --> 00:12:27.039 from the employer side, wanting to make sure that people 254 00:12:27.080 --> 00:12:30.000 will be able to fill positions. But I think, as 255 00:12:30.039 --> 00:12:32.679 you rightly point out there too, that we have to 256 00:12:32.679 --> 00:12:34.120 be able to kind of move between these positions. 257 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:36.279 And why ethnography I think is really helpful. 258 00:12:36.519 --> 00:12:39.360 It shows us that oftentimes people will have these much 259 00:12:39.360 --> 00:12:41.600 more gray perspectives. It's not this, you know, it's very 260 00:12:41.600 --> 00:12:43.440 easy to say it's a polarize this or that, right, 261 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:45.919 it's laborist or it's post laborist. But most of us 262 00:12:45.960 --> 00:12:48.360 don't live in either a theory or or like, you know, 263 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.320 a perspective that's just one in one box or the 264 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:53.879 other one. And also, you know, let's think about that 265 00:12:53.919 --> 00:12:55.960 in terms of the kind of in between there too, 266 00:12:57.039 --> 00:13:01.279 because I show that perspective in terms of that, you know, 267 00:13:01.440 --> 00:13:05.120 there is this desire around being able to do something 268 00:13:05.120 --> 00:13:06.600 in the world right, and for a lot of people 269 00:13:06.600 --> 00:13:08.480 they attached that to work doesn't have to be that though, 270 00:13:08.519 --> 00:13:10.039 and I think a lot of your interlocutors kind of 271 00:13:10.080 --> 00:13:12.600 pointed that out. So let's we can share some stories 272 00:13:12.720 --> 00:13:15.840 around that, I think, and then I'm gonna I'll put 273 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:17.720 a pin or brack at the future workpiece till little 274 00:13:17.720 --> 00:13:19.600 bit later, because I do we can definitely talk through 275 00:13:19.600 --> 00:13:22.000 that too. I think that's a really interesting piece as well, 276 00:13:22.039 --> 00:13:24.480 because a lot of this, like you know, a lot 277 00:13:24.519 --> 00:13:26.679 of business managers and business folks were trying to. 278 00:13:26.840 --> 00:13:28.440 They want to say, what is the future of work right? 279 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:29.919 And you know, and I did. I have talked to 280 00:13:29.919 --> 00:13:31.080 a bunch of folks about that on the show. We 281 00:13:31.120 --> 00:13:34.559 can we can kind of think through there. But the 282 00:13:34.759 --> 00:13:37.000 important point about that too is as for the pin 283 00:13:37.039 --> 00:13:38.440 for that later is that like a lot of these people, 284 00:13:38.440 --> 00:13:41.120 I've talked with our business owners and so we can 285 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:42.799 think about that in terms of what perspective they're going 286 00:13:42.879 --> 00:13:46.320 to bring around technology and what work can be. 287 00:13:46.919 --> 00:13:48.360 But we'll come come back to this. 288 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.679 So for now, it's like this idea, the the kind 289 00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:53.919 of in between this that you saw talking with folks, right, 290 00:13:53.960 --> 00:13:56.159 this like that I work isn't everything, but it means 291 00:13:56.159 --> 00:13:57.480 a lot to me, and it means different things to 292 00:13:57.519 --> 00:13:59.639 different folks, right, And maybe enjoyment is a way to 293 00:13:59.679 --> 00:14:01.720 kind of get us in there, because it's it's interesting 294 00:14:01.759 --> 00:14:04.080 that we don't see fun as a term that comes 295 00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:06.720 up a lot in terms of tell me about your work, 296 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:07.759 it's fun. 297 00:14:08.320 --> 00:14:08.519 You know? 298 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:10.720 Have I described jobs like that? I don't know, And 299 00:14:10.759 --> 00:14:12.279 so I think that gives us a really interesting window 300 00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:13.480 into different attitudes that folks have. 301 00:14:13.600 --> 00:14:14.919 So so what's happening there? 302 00:14:14.919 --> 00:14:18.000 Like, you know, fun stood out for you and White 303 00:14:18.039 --> 00:14:19.519 because it was something that we don't usually hear, like 304 00:14:19.519 --> 00:14:20.879 what it was about kind of fun? 305 00:14:21.080 --> 00:14:24.039 Funness that cut your eyes just came up over and 306 00:14:24.120 --> 00:14:26.519 over again. This was such a surprise. This is why 307 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:30.600 I love doing anthropological research out the sort that I do, 308 00:14:30.639 --> 00:14:33.240 where I talk to people. We could talk about my 309 00:14:33.360 --> 00:14:36.000 ned bits, but you know, it's an approach where I'm 310 00:14:36.080 --> 00:14:39.200 just talking to people and people say things you don't expect. 311 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.399 So for example, yeah, I was talking to an administrative 312 00:14:43.399 --> 00:14:48.799 as system. You know, we used to say secretary okay. 313 00:14:49.000 --> 00:14:53.759 And she was currently in a situation where she was 314 00:14:53.799 --> 00:14:56.360 just taking temporary jobs looking for a full time job. 315 00:14:56.679 --> 00:14:59.320 But she was taught at some of her past temp 316 00:14:59.440 --> 00:15:05.519 jobs that you had. And she talked about one where 317 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:10.879 she was working for a company or school district where 318 00:15:11.000 --> 00:15:13.480 they had to take information for one kind of file 319 00:15:13.759 --> 00:15:20.279 and put it into an Excel spreadsheet. And she said, Wow, 320 00:15:20.360 --> 00:15:24.039 that was so interesting. It was so much fun. And 321 00:15:24.080 --> 00:15:25.600 I said, take fun work. 322 00:15:25.679 --> 00:15:25.879 Wow. 323 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:32.919 And then you know, when I asked her what does 324 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:37.080 work mean to you? She said, I could get lost 325 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:41.320 creating a power point, I could get lost formatting a document. 326 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:44.519 I could get lost figuring out an Excel street. She 327 00:15:44.919 --> 00:15:47.559 that's just fun for it. I mean, it would just 328 00:15:47.600 --> 00:15:50.480 come up. Now. You wasn't the only one. I have 329 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.240 a list of my book I have, you know, I 330 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:56.559 think at least of the I forget the figures. I 331 00:15:56.559 --> 00:15:57.919 had to go back and check. It was like a 332 00:15:58.000 --> 00:16:03.360 third or quarter of my interviewees used fun the connection 333 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:08.039 with their work. Nothing that is expecting. It just keeps up. Now. 334 00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:11.279 I have to say, this is a very American way talking, 335 00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:14.960 and not even all Americans believe that. I think Uh, 336 00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:19.720 it fits in with the sort of very positive thinking, 337 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:24.399 optimistic sort of chipper and it's But the thing is 338 00:16:24.759 --> 00:16:27.399 one thing they were not being sarcastic, because sometimes people 339 00:16:27.480 --> 00:16:30.600 use fun sarcastically. Oh that was fun. No, it's no. 340 00:16:31.000 --> 00:16:35.679 They were only counting cases where they were sincerely found 341 00:16:35.720 --> 00:16:38.720 it fun. Now what's interesting is what kinds of things 342 00:16:38.720 --> 00:16:40.840 did they find fun? And that kind of broke it 343 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.320 down into three kinds of things that they found fun. Uh. 344 00:16:44.639 --> 00:16:51.200 The most important really was relationships with other people's relationships 345 00:16:51.240 --> 00:16:54.720 with that they're you know, with your coworkers, with your boss. 346 00:16:54.879 --> 00:16:58.679 I had one woman who was an assistant in an 347 00:16:58.720 --> 00:17:02.759 accounting firm, and she you know what was interesting in 348 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:06.480 these polarized times is this young woman is Republican and 349 00:17:06.559 --> 00:17:09.319 her bosses were Democrats. But they would just joke about 350 00:17:09.359 --> 00:17:13.160 the differences between them and their politics. So they just 351 00:17:13.200 --> 00:17:20.519 were joking teas another woman, again, an executive assistant, who 352 00:17:20.759 --> 00:17:23.359 just talked about how she would like to chick in 353 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:27.319 with her coworkers and ask how her coworker's daughter did 354 00:17:27.359 --> 00:17:31.559 in that swim meet. And this is she said, this 355 00:17:31.599 --> 00:17:35.640 is how we're being human. She was the kind of yeah, 356 00:17:36.359 --> 00:17:38.319 it does you have to have a best friend at work, 357 00:17:38.799 --> 00:17:45.680 but making relationships like that. Yeah, the tasks themselves are 358 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:49.240 really important. So do you enjoy the tasks? What are 359 00:17:49.240 --> 00:17:52.319 the what are you spending your time doing? Is it interesting? 360 00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:57.240 And some people, like the administrative assistant you liked wrangling 361 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:00.759 Excel spreadsheets for her? Was that kind of intuctual task 362 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:04.559 for others? You know? A young man I talked to 363 00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:11.279 was doing, uh, building racecourses for extreme sports, and he said, 364 00:18:11.279 --> 00:18:14.000 when I build a mud wall that's eight feet high 365 00:18:14.039 --> 00:18:16.599 and so many feet long, that's just fun. You know, 366 00:18:16.599 --> 00:18:18.480 it's so satisfying to see that at the end of 367 00:18:18.519 --> 00:18:23.119 the day, but really enjoyed. The tasks and the fiscal 368 00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:27.400 attributes of the workplace are really important to you know, 369 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:32.359 are just does it uh the temperature, the lighting, how 370 00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:36.039 the furnitures. Does it look pleasant? Is it, you know, 371 00:18:36.240 --> 00:18:40.079 this feel pleasant? Does it smell pleasant? When man talked 372 00:18:40.119 --> 00:18:44.680 about working in a warehouse for a candy company and 373 00:18:44.720 --> 00:18:46.400 he loved coming into the. 374 00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:48.400 Smell of chocolate, that was pretty nice. 375 00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:54.319 Yeah. But anyway, so all these things could make work 376 00:18:54.400 --> 00:19:00.640 really enjoyable. Now that doesn't mean it was. Uh. They 377 00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.640 were passionate about they were doing it. Didn't mean, you know, 378 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:06.920 they wanted to spend all their time doing it. And 379 00:19:06.960 --> 00:19:08.440 this is the other thing I want to talk about. 380 00:19:09.039 --> 00:19:11.960 Can I talk about the nature of the work that 381 00:19:12.160 --> 00:19:13.079 tends to go with this? 382 00:19:14.279 --> 00:19:15.279 Yeah? 383 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:18.640 Yeah, yeah, because the people who talked about work at 384 00:19:19.039 --> 00:19:22.079 What was really interesting is that the worst of people 385 00:19:22.119 --> 00:19:25.200 I talked to who felt they had a calling to 386 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:27.759 be doing what they were doing, and they would use 387 00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:31.400 words like calling or passion. It wasn't you know. It 388 00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:33.359 was a slow number, but there was a certain number. 389 00:19:33.519 --> 00:19:37.359 Somebody who is a teacher, a special teacher, her sister 390 00:19:37.559 --> 00:19:41.039 had special needs, and she felt a real calling to 391 00:19:41.079 --> 00:19:45.400 be doing that kind of work. It could be all 392 00:19:45.400 --> 00:19:50.039 different kinds of things they tendedn't. They were less likely 393 00:19:50.079 --> 00:19:52.039 to use the word fun. They enjoyed it, but it 394 00:19:52.079 --> 00:19:54.720 was sort of a deeper kind of enjoyment and meaning. 395 00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:57.880 The people who were more likely to talk about fun, 396 00:19:58.119 --> 00:20:02.640 like a woman who was a real associated Adresshap this 397 00:20:02.920 --> 00:20:07.400 wasn't their work wasn't central in their identity their sense 398 00:20:07.480 --> 00:20:11.759 of purpose in life. It was much lighter and they 399 00:20:11.920 --> 00:20:15.319 how would I call a diligent nine to five work ethic? 400 00:20:15.480 --> 00:20:18.759 And this is something I really want to say to people. 401 00:20:19.200 --> 00:20:21.519