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Speaker 1: What is up, fella, Siko's I am Dana Valley coming

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at you with the one, the only, this certified, fantabulous

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mister Grant, who's on behalf of the two of us.

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I would just like to say, we fucked up and

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we are sorry. We got many things wrong heading into

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the regular season. But now as we close out the

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twenty twenty five twenty six NBA regular season, we are

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going to a tone for our biggest macro misses. The

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best way to do that is by looking at we

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did win predictions, how much were we off buy for teams,

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and that will be able to vault us into different

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discussions for each different squad. Grant, before we get started here,

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how the heck are you doing?

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Speaker 2: I'm not sorry you. I will not jump in with you.

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We did, we did make some mistakes. Mistakes were made.

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Let's use passive voice to absolve ourselves of even more

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responsibility and we'll not be apologizing. Actually, I feel better

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about how we performed this year than last year. You

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mentioned to me that we were because and I blocked

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this out, that we were both under five hundred in

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our over under predictions last season. We are significantly better

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than that. That's not to say we did not make mistakes.

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We did. I would argue, though, I have a great

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explanation for every single one of these. So it's gonna

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be very There will be no contrition. There will just

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be some excuses I think on my end.

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Speaker 1: And so the way we're gonna do it, we're gonna

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go through our We'll call them the ten biggest misses,

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but it's really the five biggest like win jumps. So

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who were we under Who were the biggest overachievers relative

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to our expectations versus underachievers? Because this podcast is true

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hive mind, we had the same ten in that category,

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which is different orders, which is just hysterical. But we're

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also going to base it on the order of which

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teams because we want this to be more reflective of Okay,

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which team's actually overachieved everyone's expectation. We're going through the

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over unders, and we're gonna see which team's overachieved and

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underachieved just in order of the biggest discrepancies, and in

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either direction, we will announce this would be a reason

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to join our discord once the season's over, because there's

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still someone I was going through our over and under

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records right now, there's still a couple of swing teams.

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So people announce at the end of the season the

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winner of our over under competition, who gets whatever piece

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of merch from the hardware not shop they want, as

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well as the opportunity to come on and read guess

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the players to you and I which people are clamoring

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for guests of players again, go give us more guests

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of players if you want us to do guests of players.

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Speaker 3: That would be my advice to everybody. So join our discord.

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Get in there. This is gonna be fun. The first

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team did you?

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Speaker 1: Oh, you have the list in front of you, so

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you're not even gonna be able to guess who's the

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biggest miss. But the biggest discrepancy in the over under

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not our biggest discrepancies, I'll note I'll denote which are

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like what we're our biggest misses. The Indiana Pacers grant

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they underperformed there over under by eighteen point five wins

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minus eighteen point five is a lot I don't have.

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I can't figure out any earthly reason why they would

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end up here.

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Speaker 3: This is inexcusable in might love.

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Speaker 2: Well, So we should know that these are based on

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projected finish like this might be within one you know,

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might swing one win or one lost one direction or

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the other. But yeah, so they're over under coming. Into

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the season was thirty six and a half and they're

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on track for less than half of that total eighteen wins. Essentially,

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they I think it was a franchise record. They lost

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sixteen in a row. Just recently. I think they snapped that.

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They're one of those teams I've stopped paying attention to

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full disclosure, Like it's just I.

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Speaker 3: Think they did snap that. But that's that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I'm pretty sure they did. I was

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trying to think who they beat. Was it Orlando? I

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can't remember either way. This line was always too high,

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wasn't it? Like we didn't This was not among our

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our individual or collective misses. This was just like a

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This was just a bad line that did not seem

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to understand the downside potential here.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it was one of my It was my fifth

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biggest miss, even being lower on them than projections. They

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underperformed my whin projections by sixteen. They underperformed yours by fifteen,

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So you were kind of in lockstep there with me.

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But this was a team without Tyres Haliburt and you

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kind of thought, I'm actually surprised that there weren't more shenanigans.

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Speaker 3: From them throughout the season.

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Speaker 1: The record is the record, but I just assumed that

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Pascal Siaka might be shut down in December or by

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Christmas or something, and so there's a very like clear

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catalyst for why they're going to be here. But what's fascinating,

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Grant is that this is a team that made one

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of the most aggressive plays at the trade deadline as

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well despite being here, because they're so sure or so

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determined to re enter the contender mix next year, which

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I just think is fascinating because I'm all for teams

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doing that. But to me, it's a little different when

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you have someone like Tyre's Halliburton coming back from an

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achilles injury, because you do have to wonder or well,

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what does he look like upon return? Are we accelerating

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this little too fast? Should we see what he looks like?

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Or does the urgency just make so much sense? Pascal

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Siakam's not getting any younger, so you might as well go.

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Speaker 3: All in with it.

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Speaker 1: This is it's truly fascinating, and by the way, they're

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gonna be one of the more intriguing teams to watch

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on Draft LOTO night because it's, oh, are they gonna

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send a pick to the Clippers or are they keeping

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their pick this year? And then that becomes it If

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they keep it, that becomes a different discussion.

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Speaker 3: Are you developing this player? Are you trading it for

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another win?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: Trading him for another win?

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Speaker 1: Now?

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Speaker 3: Piece it's the pacer, So.

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Speaker 1: I guess would be if they keep the pick, they'll

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draft and develop a player. But yeah, this for a

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team that underperformed relative to expectation, relative to projections, just

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such a bizarre season.

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Speaker 3: To me, I am with you. I think the problem was.

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Speaker 1: Is you come off the we do the season look

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aheads and you come off when you speak about it

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feeling better about pretty much every team. There are a

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few exceptions, but they were one of them. When I

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sat there and did the wins, though they were a team,

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I started stripping them away from because you look at

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the roster in the circle, it's no like the Pas.

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The Pacers aren't more. They're not better like without their

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best player than necessarily another team, and they're not above

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sum shenanigans, which we have seen.

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Speaker 2: Well right, So I guess I have to apologize already

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for even though I said I wouldn't apologize, but I

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did just make a mistake. I thought we were closer

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on this, but so just looking at like yours, for example,

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you were sixteen wins off, which means if they're projected

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for eighteen, you thought they would win thirty four, which

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is still under the thirty six and a half, but

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fairly narrowly. And I'm right there, I'm fifteen off. So

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I win, No big deal, I win. I was one

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win less wrong than you were. Okay, so I've already

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decided that I knew they were going to be this

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terrible all along, and that's not the case. I knew

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they'd go under, but I thought they'd be in the

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low thirties or yeah, low thirties and wins. That's uh,

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I guess right. You can't have foreseen that they'd have

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every every other player who mattered get injured at some point,

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but and and all that stuff. I mean that that's

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a tough one. I just it's hindsight, man. Hindsight's real tough,

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all right.

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Speaker 1: Don't you think there was the element maybe we bought into?

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Because I'm saying we eventually did dismiss it, but we

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bought into the idea that no, the Pacers are they're

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still gonna go for they're not.

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Speaker 2: They always do. Yeah, they're not gonna pack it in,

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and if they do, it'll be it'll be late. It

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wouldn't be okay, I'll say this. I don't think we

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expected it wasn't likely that they would be a full

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season start to finish tanker. I think the way that

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I envisioned it was, you know, you get to the

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trade deadline, you certainly don't make it the type of

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trade that they that they did make, and then you

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pivot into it and you win thirty one games or

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whatever it is. It's sort of like a more of

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your classic like Portland Trailblazers late season and tank type

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of thing years ago. Didn't see this one coming. That's okay,

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that's all right, that's all right. We were better than

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the consensus, though, which isn't saying much.

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Speaker 1: Well, we were over on the next team, the Charlotte Hornets,

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and yet they outperformed their win total by seventeen and

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a half wins, which is just we've been We've been

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on them since Thanksgiving or we've been on the fact

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that they are top There are two teams straight residents

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yet since Thanksgiving that or three teams that rank in

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the top five of offense and defense. It is the Celtics,

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it is the Spurs, and it is the Charlotte Hornets.

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Just like everyone predicted, right, we both under no, not

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the thunder.

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Speaker 3: Who were they?

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Speaker 1: We both went over, but I had them. I was

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still off. I had the bet because they're over. Under

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was set at twenty six and a half. I had

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them thirty three. They're going to be on pace to

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win between forty four and forty five right now. So

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they weren't one of my actual quote unquote they're my

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top ten, but they were eight on my swings, like

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so plus eleven but plus seventeen and a half relative

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to the line is a monster number.

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Speaker 2: Also my eighth biggest swing. I guess miss several things.

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LaMelo Ball stayed pretty healthy, Conkin Nipple was orders of

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magnitude better than anybody thought he would be. And I

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think that includes the Hornets themselves. Like you just can't

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ever predict that a rookie is going to be. Like

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I was doing some early all NBA stuff and conk

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Nipple has a legitimate All.

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Speaker 1: NBA case just as well, especially if we're going to

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start to not going to qualify.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's why, like he would I don't

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think I would call him a top fifteen player if

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everybody was, if we had all hands on deck, but

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we don't, and so he's a real thought there. Brandon

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Miller has looked kind of like you would if you

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had flashed forward from the moment he was picked and

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said like it's going to be like an eighty fifth,

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ninetieth percentile outcome, Like he kind of looks like this guy,

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and so just a lot. Charles Lee is a good coach.

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The defense is the thing that still confounds me. I

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just don't even if you were sitting there in October

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and putting together really optimistic scenarios for Charlotte, I really

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don't think you would ever get to since Thanksgiving or

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over a fifty game sample, they'll be like a contention

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caliber defense. Like you just there's no way you'd guess that.

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Speaker 1: We're talking like almost three quarters of the season at

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this point, where they've just had the profile.

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Speaker 3: But that's insane.

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Speaker 1: And when you watch their defense too, it's Okay, there's

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a bunch of like high pickup points, a ton of pressure.

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Musa Diabat is kind of a psychopath and that and

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to Brandon miller's been great for them and they've gotten

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like being able to plug into Grant Williams or being

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able to plug into Josh Green. And then you go

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out and you trade for Kobe White too, which is

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just he's gonna end up being a perfect fit for

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this team. This is watching them since like coming into

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the season because of the health issues with LaMelo or

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even Brandon Miller. I don't think there's any way you

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could have recently been like this is a forty five

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win team.

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Speaker 2: No, No, I mean I want I want the It's

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probably like a Charlotte podcaster or blogger that just was

231
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wildly optimistic. I want, like, can we crowdsource find me

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the rosiest preseason prediction for the Hornets, and I want

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that person. I want to know who that is so

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I can go read it and just see like wow,

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this and then have them give me lottery numbers because

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they're obviously clairvoyant.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So even if you would have said everybody stays healthy, I.

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Speaker 1: Don't Maybe I would have bumped them up to like

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forty one or forty two if you could have said that.

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And now we're at the point where I want to

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ask you. I've asked you this question once before, but

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legitimately want to ask you, given the state of everything, health,

243
00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:38,559
the standings, how many teams in the Eastern Conference are

244
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you prepared to guarantee would beat the Charlotte Hornets in

245
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a playoff series?

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Speaker 2: Guarantee is a very strong word. I mean, I start

247
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with Boston. That's so I feel good about.

248
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Speaker 3: Boston at Boston because that's my end.

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Speaker 2: I thought you might end at Boston. I think I'm

250
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hesitant to say that anyone else, for cer Is just

251
00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:04,240
is going to have no problem with Charlotte. The Knicks

252
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have their issues, Cleveland has its issues. I don't know.

253
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I mean Detroit. If Detroit doesn't have Kate Cunningham, they've won,

254
00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,639
you know, pretty surprisingly without him, at least in the

255
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early days of his absence. But I mean, you just

256
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can't ignore the fifty game plus sample where Charlotte just

257
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is that team. So yeah, I guess I'll go with one.

258
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You could definitely it's a coin flip for probably at

259
00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,480
least three other teams, but even that is kind of

260
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wild for a team that had a twenty six and

261
00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:38,840
a half over under to start the year, Crazy.

262
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Speaker 1: Grant, I'm anxiously awaiting your apology for this team to

263
00:12:42,759 --> 00:12:46,039
San Antonio Spurs your biggest miss. I say this knowing

264
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they were my second biggest miss. But the Spurs were

265
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projected for forty four and a half wins currently opious

266
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to exceed that by seventeen and a half wins as well.

267
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Is there anything you would like to get off your

268
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chest in a tone for here, because clearly I'm resolved

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of all blamed because you this was your biggest mess.

270
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Speaker 2: It's it's uh just pure cognitive dissonance because I I

271
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thought wem Binyama would win Defensive Player of the Year.

272
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I thought he would be a top five MVP type player.

273
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You know all that, And so then the question is,

274
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if you think that, how are the Spurs not one

275
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of the best, like three or four teams in the

276
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conference at minimum? I think they're better than that. So

277
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I just I don't know what I thought this season

278
00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:35,799
would look like. I guess I thought wembin Yama would

279
00:13:35,799 --> 00:13:38,799
be spectacular, and nobody else on the Spurs was going

280
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to be all that impressive. But even then, if he's

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that good, what we were seeing this is the underdiscussed

282
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aspect of the Spurs that I think speaks Tom to

283
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:53,080
Wemby's MVP candidacy. When you have a guy that's that dominant,

284
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it just makes everybody else confident and their best self,

285
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and it just it has all these crazy trickle down

286
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,000
effects to where everyone's just better. He's a level raiser,

287
00:14:02,039 --> 00:14:04,879
He's that caliber, He's that rare caliber of player that

288
00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:08,120
if you're on the floor with him, you're just better

289
00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:11,039
because you think everything's possible and you have the ultimate

290
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:15,080
safety blanket and on and on. So I I just

291
00:14:15,159 --> 00:14:18,480
blew it in predicting he would be great, probably not

292
00:14:18,639 --> 00:14:21,159
this great. I didn't think he like I might pick

293
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:23,120
him for MVP. I don't know. It's it's a real

294
00:14:23,919 --> 00:14:26,320
just it's a real uh thing I've been thinking a

295
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,919
lot about. But I don't know how he can be

296
00:14:29,039 --> 00:14:31,000
all that and then the Spurs win. What did I

297
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,879
say they were gonna win. I'm twenty I'm twenty one

298
00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,720
off and they're gonna yes, like in the forties, like,

299
00:14:37,840 --> 00:14:41,039
no way, really bad. I assume you're in the same boat.

300
00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,320
Speaker 1: Right, And I say I was also off by twenty

301
00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,600
one wins with them, but it's just that I had

302
00:14:45,600 --> 00:14:46,440
a bigger miss than that.

303
00:14:46,639 --> 00:14:48,000
Speaker 3: So it was the real way.

304
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Speaker 2: Are here the thing?

305
00:14:49,960 --> 00:14:52,240
Speaker 1: The only thing that I could add and this might

306
00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:54,200
be a big part or should be a big part

307
00:14:54,240 --> 00:14:56,240
of if you're going to make the MVP case for him,

308
00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,200
is we do tend to zero in so much on

309
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,799
the defense. And then also now it's been more about well,

310
00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:05,360
look at the gravity he has in the pain and

311
00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:07,919
the number of corner threes that the Spurs are taking.

312
00:15:08,639 --> 00:15:11,519
He's having an impact on all of this. That is

313
00:15:11,519 --> 00:15:14,279
a huge part of the MVP case. The other thing

314
00:15:14,399 --> 00:15:17,679
is he's just a better self starter than he was

315
00:15:17,720 --> 00:15:19,600
too and so if he is it was the game

316
00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,279
winner again was that the suns where he hit the

317
00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:25,440
game winner? But he might be a player, perhaps not

318
00:15:25,559 --> 00:15:28,519
right now, but if he just becomes somebody who gets

319
00:15:28,559 --> 00:15:30,679
the ball can take it to his spots and hit

320
00:15:30,679 --> 00:15:32,639
these jumpers off the dribble whoever he wants, or get

321
00:15:32,679 --> 00:15:34,759
to the basket off the dribble whenever he wants.

322
00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:39,320
Speaker 3: What are what are you supposed to do? Well?

323
00:15:40,799 --> 00:15:44,480
Speaker 2: I think here the thing is like so that's a

324
00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:48,279
question we have now, which was not really. I don't know,

325
00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,039
he hadn't progressed to the point where that was part

326
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:54,039
of the calculus earlier this season or before the season.

327
00:15:54,600 --> 00:15:58,000
I just I'm struck, most recently by how much better

328
00:15:58,039 --> 00:16:00,360
of a player he is today than he was two

329
00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,200
months ago and four months ago, and certainly by the

330
00:16:03,679 --> 00:16:07,480
by the time he was done with his truncated last season,

331
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:11,159
like all bet all bets are off, all bets are off,

332
00:16:11,559 --> 00:16:14,519
Like he is not fully formed and he's the growth

333
00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:18,039
just in season. I struggle to remember a player that.

334
00:16:18,639 --> 00:16:20,360
I mean, it's not to say he wasn't a great

335
00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,039
player to begin the year, but the things that he's

336
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:26,960
doing now are just different and and like the one

337
00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,879
handed touch passing stuff like around the perimp like just

338
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:34,080
the dexterity, the the like the danger he's started he's

339
00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,519
starting to pose in transition, like the gravity all like

340
00:16:37,559 --> 00:16:41,799
it's all just I don't know, man. Yeah, so we

341
00:16:42,039 --> 00:16:45,799
we mildly, I guess, underestimated when mien Yama, but by extension,

342
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:49,039
grossly underestimated this burst. That's kind of what happened.

343
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, is Steph Casseo leap to talk about

344
00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:54,240
someone other than Wemby uh the d we were worried

345
00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:54,960
about the guard fit.

346
00:16:55,039 --> 00:16:56,799
Speaker 3: Dalan Harper has been better than expected.

347
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:01,320
Speaker 2: That's another rookie has been exactly you know the other.

348
00:17:01,240 --> 00:17:02,519
Speaker 3: Guy, Devin Vessell.

349
00:17:02,879 --> 00:17:05,160
Speaker 2: Dan. I was gonna say a Dan special Devin Vessell.

350
00:17:05,279 --> 00:17:09,119
You he the what wem Binyama does for the Spurs

351
00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,039
allows Vassell to just be the very best version of himself.

352
00:17:13,119 --> 00:17:15,559
Like he's a better player. He might be the same

353
00:17:15,559 --> 00:17:17,720
player he's been the last couple of years, but he's

354
00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:20,960
just better because he's more confident, he has the support

355
00:17:21,000 --> 00:17:23,960
around him he has. Like it's like you'll try harder

356
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,240
tricks on a trapeze with a safety net and when

357
00:17:26,279 --> 00:17:29,920
Benyama is a safety net and Vassill's just exploring the

358
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:33,519
limits of his game. He he Yeah, it's just a

359
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:37,039
it's a top down effect with with someone as great

360
00:17:37,079 --> 00:17:39,960
as wem Banyama, It's it's it's super rare. That's the

361
00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,480
other thing is like they're just there's you can count

362
00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,279
on one hand the guys that have made this kind

363
00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:46,279
of impact over the last fifteen years.

364
00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,640
Speaker 1: The Sacramento Kings, relative to productions, are the fourth most

365
00:17:53,759 --> 00:17:56,799
that they were off by the fourth most, and that's

366
00:17:56,880 --> 00:18:00,839
kind of saying something. Greg Wissinger came on this podcasts

367
00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,319
before the season and said he's prepared for this to

368
00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:07,039
be just one of the most depressing seasons writ large

369
00:18:07,039 --> 00:18:09,599
that he's watched with the Kings, and then he said

370
00:18:09,799 --> 00:18:13,079
sold undersold he said halfway through he said, oh, yeah,

371
00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:16,440
undersold it because they were predicted to win thirty five

372
00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:19,200
and a half h they are currently on pace to

373
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,839
win twenty one. That's not good, and it's made even

374
00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,559
worse by the fact that, okay, you'll have a lotto pick,

375
00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:28,759
but what else do you have to show for any

376
00:18:28,799 --> 00:18:31,359
of this? It's we still don't really know what Keegan

377
00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:35,960
Murray is like, Knee Clifford his rookie year, Devin Carter

378
00:18:35,960 --> 00:18:38,240
doesn't seem like he's going to be a thing. They

379
00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,839
found Dylan Cardwell and Maxim Reino. Those have been good

380
00:18:40,839 --> 00:18:43,839
fines for them, but just where do they go from here?

381
00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,079
This is one of the more aimless misses that are

382
00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,200
out there, and we both still went under and ended

383
00:18:50,279 --> 00:18:53,839
up missing. Pretty I was minus they're underperforming by my

384
00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:57,640
own projections by minus twelve wins, so not like a

385
00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:00,839
huge gap, but it was just there. You could not

386
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:04,759
underestimate this team. The Kings franchise always has the ability

387
00:19:04,799 --> 00:19:05,440
to go lower.

388
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:06,519
Speaker 3: It's almost impressive.

389
00:19:06,839 --> 00:19:10,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say they're a team that I don't

390
00:19:10,759 --> 00:19:12,880
know if this is even a term that exists, but

391
00:19:13,039 --> 00:19:15,920
when you were going through, oh, here's a bright spot

392
00:19:16,000 --> 00:19:20,240
or here's something like with just take take Raino, is

393
00:19:20,559 --> 00:19:23,440
it possible that like what the Kings are actually getting

394
00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:27,440
right now from him is like negative not negative information

395
00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,960
doesn't quite feel right, but it's like it's just misinformation

396
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:33,160
because you what you might do is look at his

397
00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,720
production and say, well, there's something here, and so we'll

398
00:19:36,799 --> 00:19:39,799
make decisions going forward based on the belief that there's

399
00:19:39,799 --> 00:19:45,119
something here. Except you're making that assessment in totally meaningless games. Again,

400
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:47,599
it's it's an old argument of just like can you

401
00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:50,000
trut It's the Jalen Green can can you trust what's

402
00:19:50,039 --> 00:19:54,160
happening in a meaningless stretch of a meaningless season against

403
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:57,039
competition that just is not bringing it and don't care

404
00:19:57,279 --> 00:20:00,880
because you're just a pushover. I wonder if he's actually

405
00:20:01,319 --> 00:20:03,759
if they're gonna come away from this season saying well,

406
00:20:03,799 --> 00:20:06,359
at least we know we've got a future starter at center,

407
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,359
and it's like, you don't know that because of the

408
00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:11,720
level of competition and the stakes and all that stuff.

409
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:13,559
And it's also I don't think you do know that.

410
00:20:13,799 --> 00:20:15,640
Speaker 1: You try playing him a little bit with Sabonis, and

411
00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:17,640
you try playing him with Dylan Card Well, so do

412
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:20,119
you view him as a primary starting center? I don't

413
00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,400
even know if they're going to view him in that vein.

414
00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:27,559
Speaker 2: This is like this is it's like, you're the things

415
00:20:27,599 --> 00:20:30,839
are going to be starting next season like below zero

416
00:20:31,160 --> 00:20:34,440
because they just they don't they don't have any good information.

417
00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:36,480
I don't think on any of these guys that might

418
00:20:36,559 --> 00:20:38,920
or might not matter, so like even next year as

419
00:20:38,920 --> 00:20:41,960
they're you know, whatever the rebuild looks like when you

420
00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,960
still have a bunch of bloated veteran contracts on the books.

421
00:20:45,079 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 1: By the way they are, if they don't make they

422
00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,200
are projected to be in the luxury towsk.

423
00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:49,279
Speaker 3: We should move on.

424
00:20:49,599 --> 00:20:52,319
Speaker 2: There's nothing to say here there. We knew they'd be bad.

425
00:20:52,319 --> 00:20:54,680
We didn't know they'd be this bad. All the memes,

426
00:20:54,759 --> 00:20:56,519
all our expectations were low memes.

427
00:20:57,559 --> 00:20:59,720
Speaker 3: Uh, the Dallas Mavericks are next up.

428
00:20:59,799 --> 00:21:03,440
Speaker 1: They also missed their projections by fourteen and a half wins.

429
00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 3: They were there.

430
00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,039
Speaker 1: Over under was forty point five. They're on pace for

431
00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,400
twenty six and a half. I had them at forty wins.

432
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:13,359
I don't I'm looking back. I guess I didn't think

433
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:16,920
they were gonna trade Anthony Davis, and I assumed that

434
00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:19,160
both he and Kyrie Irving We're gonna play a bunch

435
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,519
of games, which kind of, in retrospect, is really dumb.

436
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I this is one of the rare teams

437
00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:27,440
that I really do remember the theory of why I

438
00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:29,400
thought they'd be. I think I had them at forty two.

439
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:32,319
I think I was, so that means I was more

440
00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,799
a little more off than you. Uh yeah, I was

441
00:21:34,839 --> 00:21:38,160
sixteen wins off. They're projected till this was like, Okay,

442
00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:40,640
they're gonna play Cooper Flag at point guard until Kyrie

443
00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,039
Irving comes back. The offense is gonna be bad, but

444
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,680
I think they're gonna be really huge across all positions,

445
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:50,240
and they're gonna rebound and they'll defend, and so okay,

446
00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,079
it's a it's a number ten defense and a number

447
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:56,240
twenty offense or or five and twenty five or whatever.

448
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,279
That's about even. That's about break even. Kyrie comes back,

449
00:21:59,319 --> 00:22:01,920
the offense looks good. That was my theory that they'd

450
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:05,039
be around five hundred, because I thought they had real strengths,

451
00:22:05,039 --> 00:22:07,960
and then they just nuked it. It's just the Davis

452
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:11,599
injuries and the Flag experiment, at least initially at point

453
00:22:11,599 --> 00:22:14,880
Guard win even worse offensively than most people thought. And

454
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,839
Irving isn't coming back. So a lot of a lot

455
00:22:17,839 --> 00:22:20,880
of contributing factors to the inaccuracy on that one.

456
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,799
Speaker 1: How do you feel about them moving forward though, just

457
00:22:23,839 --> 00:22:26,359
because of how like Flagg has had an excellent rookie

458
00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,400
season overall, and they just have a bunch of guys

459
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:34,519
still Marshall, PJ. Washington, Gafford, like even getting like even

460
00:22:34,519 --> 00:22:37,880
getting moments from a Brandon Williams and Max Christie's been

461
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,640
great by and large this year.

462
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,079
Speaker 2: I think it's hard to feel bad just because Flag

463
00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,680
does look like the guy and so that's a starting point.

464
00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:48,720
That's good. I still, you know, they don't control there

465
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,559
after this year. They don't control their first for the

466
00:22:50,559 --> 00:22:53,640
rest of the decade and change, right, So yeah, that's

467
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:57,799
not great. But in theory they I think if you

468
00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,759
have a halfway capable or better lead guard, so Flag

469
00:23:01,759 --> 00:23:03,880
doesn't have to do all that stuff, and he gets

470
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:07,559
better at that stuff in hopefully a secondary role. There's

471
00:23:07,559 --> 00:23:10,599
still enough. They got all these big wings and combo forwards,

472
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:12,799
and they got an There's there's a lot here. I

473
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:14,480
might just picking to be a five hundred team again

474
00:23:14,519 --> 00:23:16,920
next year on a lot of the same thinking. So yeah,

475
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:18,799
I don't I don't feel too bad about him. There's

476
00:23:18,799 --> 00:23:20,599
a lot of teams I feel much worse about. If

477
00:23:20,839 --> 00:23:24,119
Flag alone is you know, you're okay.

478
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:24,720
Speaker 3: I do.

479
00:23:25,039 --> 00:23:27,160
Speaker 1: I would love to see and I don't know who

480
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,119
would be the ideal one, but I would like to

481
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,839
see him alongside more of a floor spacing five who

482
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:35,039
when you're going that route, you're not giving up size

483
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,400
necessarily doesn't have to be your core lineup.

484
00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 3: But I also don't like Oh PJ.

485
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,519
Speaker 1: Washington and Flag as your only front core because then

486
00:23:42,559 --> 00:23:45,400
it's Oh Gafford and Naji Marsham. There's other guys that

487
00:23:45,440 --> 00:23:47,279
are just on the bench. I just want to see

488
00:23:47,519 --> 00:23:49,839
what he would look like next to a true stretch five.

489
00:23:50,400 --> 00:23:53,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair, especially if if one of

490
00:23:53,319 --> 00:23:55,440
the things he continues to not do at a super

491
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,200
high level is hit threes, because because then you just

492
00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:00,680
you're kind of stuck with a pair of spacers.

493
00:24:01,039 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: Might not so hot to take those that. I think

494
00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,559
he's gonna be able to hit hit three in the jump.

495
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 2: I think so too. I think so too.

496
00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:13,119
Speaker 1: Next up, the Phoenix Suns outperforming their projections by plus

497
00:24:13,279 --> 00:24:16,400
thirteen and a half wins into the season. They're over

498
00:24:16,519 --> 00:24:18,640
under was thirty one and a half. They're currently on

499
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,359
pace to be a forty five win team. I missed

500
00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,880
on them grant by eighteen wins. They're outperforming my own

501
00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,400
win projections by eighteen. You were at seventeen. I can't

502
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:32,000
say enough good things about the Suns. I don't know

503
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,640
if my well of perception was poisoned because of the

504
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:40,559
Kevin Durant earon. How bad, the how rotten the vibes

505
00:24:40,599 --> 00:24:43,440
just were. But credit to Jordan Ott for instilling this

506
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:47,119
system where these guys compete their asses off defensively, they

507
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,319
crash the offensive glass. I think Devin Booker is again.

508
00:24:50,319 --> 00:24:51,720
I don't know how many times I've said this about

509
00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:53,759
Devin Booker. I think his season has been underrated. I

510
00:24:53,799 --> 00:24:55,599
don't know, O. His efficiency is not as high as

511
00:24:55,599 --> 00:24:58,559
you want. Okay, shut up, look at the talent that's

512
00:24:58,599 --> 00:25:01,000
around him. The defensive attention he draws in his passing

513
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:02,119
is pristine.

514
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,799
Speaker 3: For the most part. I just this the Dylan Brooks.

515
00:25:05,839 --> 00:25:07,279
Speaker 1: I did not see him being like one of the

516
00:25:07,319 --> 00:25:10,240
most efficient self created shot makers in the league before

517
00:25:10,599 --> 00:25:13,119
his injury. I didn't see like this the way they've

518
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:15,680
been able to come together center play. It was Mark

519
00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:17,799
Williams kind of stood out at one point, and then

520
00:25:17,799 --> 00:25:19,920
as he he retreated, it was like, look what Osoe

521
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,039
Gadaro was able to do for you.

522
00:25:21,079 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 3: On the defensive end, they're.

523
00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:25,880
Speaker 1: Getting They've gotten better stints from common model watch Rashier

524
00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:28,319
Fleming's been like just sort of this fine for them.

525
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,799
They've been able to just their rotation has sometimes been

526
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:32,920
all over the place, but they've just been able to

527
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:35,920
plug certain holes. They're tough to play. I think if

528
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:37,920
they make it to the playoffs, their offense is gonna

529
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:40,160
be awful. Still, you would need really like you need

530
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,359
a jail in green post All Star break like circa

531
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:44,400
Houston Heater.

532
00:25:44,759 --> 00:25:46,599
Speaker 3: So I think really match up well there.

533
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,680
Speaker 1: But I don't know how to feel about them going forward,

534
00:25:49,759 --> 00:25:52,640
just because they don't have a ton of meaningful ways

535
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,079
to improve. But this is a team you're gonna feel

536
00:25:56,519 --> 00:25:58,599
when you play them, and they're kind of a fun watch.

537
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,440
The offense can be a little bit of a I

538
00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,640
wish they would play faster the relative to personnel that

539
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,960
they have. That's not necessarily Devin Booker's mo though, But

540
00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:11,519
defensively just look like Jordan Goodwin maniacal that and before

541
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,720
they're just they're a fun team. And part of that is, Okay,

542
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,000
they obliterated expectations.

543
00:26:16,559 --> 00:26:19,839
Speaker 2: Right, I think, uh, you probably actually I don't know

544
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:22,119
where you start, because because my first thought as you're

545
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:26,519
going through it is pretty pretty damning assessment of Kevin

546
00:26:26,599 --> 00:26:29,839
Durant's impact on a team, pretty glowing assessment of Dylan

547
00:26:29,839 --> 00:26:33,119
Brooks's impact on a team. I think just that if

548
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:35,000
you just view that as a one for one swap,

549
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:36,880
which really it's not. But if you just look at

550
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,240
it that way, hard to argue that. I mean, say

551
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,000
what you want about Dylan Brooks where sunglasses inside. We know,

552
00:26:43,079 --> 00:26:46,440
we know where we stand on that, but it seems

553
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,279
like where he goes things get better competitively, and where

554
00:26:49,319 --> 00:26:53,079
he leaves things get worse competitively. That's an oversimplification, but

555
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:56,079
that's a factor here. I think as much and and

556
00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:59,480
and it's very much related to Jordan, not just kind

557
00:26:59,519 --> 00:27:02,440
of getting to play completely differently than they played last year.

558
00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:05,039
Easier to do if you don't have really highly paid

559
00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,960
established stars outside a booker, get easier to get buy

560
00:27:09,039 --> 00:27:13,640
in from really hungry players, like all those guys you mentioned, Gillespie, Grayson, Allen, Like,

561
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,720
there's been a lot of like, well, that was a

562
00:27:16,839 --> 00:27:20,079
much better performance than I would have ever imagined from

563
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,240
this player. And there's probably a half dozen of those

564
00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:25,599
on this team. It's a combo of the personnel swap

565
00:27:26,839 --> 00:27:31,680
affecting the vibes, better coaching, just it's all has kind

566
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,400
of gone right. I too though with you where it's

567
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:39,079
so what is this? What are the Suns going forward now?

568
00:27:40,039 --> 00:27:42,000
Because a lot of times when his team has this

569
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,519
year over year transformation, a lot of it which is

570
00:27:44,559 --> 00:27:48,440
attributed to playing harder, you know, defending with a lot

571
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:52,319
of purpose, out competing all that other stuff. It's pretty

572
00:27:52,319 --> 00:27:54,519
hard to carry that over into a second season after

573
00:27:54,559 --> 00:27:57,839
you've had one successful one. So where does that leave them?

574
00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,519
I'm not sure? But where that leads at the moment

575
00:28:00,559 --> 00:28:03,599
is they've just smoked expectations and good for them.

576
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:06,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even like they have the second year on

577
00:28:06,599 --> 00:28:09,319
the Hayward high Smith mid season contract, who's been really

578
00:28:09,319 --> 00:28:11,960
good for them. It seems they feel like a smarter

579
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,160
organization now under when you're gonna look at it from

580
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:16,839
the front office down to the coaching staff, and that

581
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:17,799
they're more in tune.

582
00:28:18,039 --> 00:28:18,799
Speaker 3: So I don't I don't.

583
00:28:18,799 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 1: You're right, I don't know what they could do to improve,

584
00:28:20,799 --> 00:28:23,000
but I wonder they would be if they're sort of

585
00:28:23,039 --> 00:28:25,599
the not John Moran or someone on that love but

586
00:28:25,599 --> 00:28:28,119
if there's the distressed star who you can just acquire

587
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:29,079
by cobbling together.

588
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:30,839
Speaker 3: I still love Zion for this team.

589
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,599
Speaker 1: I think that's that's the area of upgrade focus for me,

590
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:35,920
is that even if you have confidence in Jayalen Green,

591
00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:39,640
it's I they just need a front line offensive upgrade. Yeah,

592
00:28:39,839 --> 00:28:42,160
I think that's so That's what I'd like to see

593
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:43,720
them do. But I would just like to reiterate my

594
00:28:43,799 --> 00:28:47,880
Devin Booker point. He leads the league in potential assists

595
00:28:48,119 --> 00:28:51,799
per one hundred passes, so that's he's throwing passes that

596
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,640
are leading to assist opportunities. And he's also among the

597
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,759
league leaders in high value assists. When looking at looks

598
00:28:57,759 --> 00:29:00,599
that he's creating from three at the m and then

599
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,799
passes that end in free throws. I think that his

600
00:29:03,839 --> 00:29:05,880
efficiency hasn't always been there. The on off splits have

601
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,200
sometimes been weird. I He's like, this is where is

602
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:13,119
this team without him? Like just because the defensive tension

603
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:14,799
that he had drawn, he's able to draw.

604
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,799
Speaker 3: So the signs of I mean, they've they've shocked me.

605
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: I probably said, I don't remember what I said exactly,

606
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,519
but I said, all seems like.

607
00:29:23,119 --> 00:29:26,759
Speaker 2: Everything a couple of final points here because we owe

608
00:29:26,759 --> 00:29:30,240
it to them. I think one is like, I think

609
00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:32,440
you alluded to this, but but the idea that just

610
00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,640
like the well is just poisoned here. There's just like

611
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:37,720
nothing good can come of this based on how the

612
00:29:37,759 --> 00:29:40,279
last two years have gone, based on what it seems

613
00:29:40,359 --> 00:29:44,000
like ownership and management's priorities are, just how out of

614
00:29:44,039 --> 00:29:46,119
touch they seem to be with like what it takes

615
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:49,559
to compete with the rules being what they are, you know,

616
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,559
all the second apron stuff, all the and the other

617
00:29:52,599 --> 00:29:55,920
thing too. I think lastly is because of the way

618
00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,720
that Matt Ishbia kind of conducted himself and because of

619
00:29:59,759 --> 00:30:02,799
the decisions that were made with respect to roster building

620
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,680
on his watch. I think I was rooting for failure here,

621
00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:08,759
if I'm being honest, like I think I wanted the

622
00:30:08,799 --> 00:30:12,880
Suns to be punished for the way Ishbiah was running

623
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,640
the team. I think I've that felt like that would

624
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,160
feel just if you go all in to the nth degree,

625
00:30:19,759 --> 00:30:22,319
set all your future first on fire and then have

626
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:24,160
to blow it up because it doesn't work, like you

627
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,599
should endure some pain for that. And I was almost

628
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,079
wanting that to happen, and they just didn't. It didn't

629
00:30:29,079 --> 00:30:31,599
happen at all. They they're having a great season.

630
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 3: I was still.

631
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: One of my favorite social media moments of the season

632
00:30:35,559 --> 00:30:39,039
is Matt Ishbia using the clap back of right, yeah, well,

633
00:30:39,079 --> 00:30:41,279
you guys all thought we were gonna be good last year,

634
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:42,400
so we showed you.

635
00:30:43,039 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 3: We showed you.

636
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:47,759
Speaker 1: Ah Grant, there's gonna be tough for me. This is

637
00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:51,720
my biggest miss the Boston Celtics. They outperformed. You gotta

638
00:30:51,759 --> 00:30:54,279
give kudos to the folks over at Vikas. They only

639
00:30:54,319 --> 00:30:57,200
missed by thirteen and a half wins. The Celtics are

640
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:59,960
on pace for fifty five and they had an over

641
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:01,319
under a forty one.

642
00:31:01,319 --> 00:31:04,039
Speaker 3: And a half. I had them penciled in for thirty

643
00:31:04,039 --> 00:31:04,599
two wins.

644
00:31:05,079 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 1: I was convinced they were gonna duck the tax and

645
00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:10,440
just use this as a gap year. Maybe Jason Tatum

646
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:12,440
would play at the end, but they were really gonna

647
00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:15,319
come back in full force next season. Well, they ducked

648
00:31:15,319 --> 00:31:18,319
the tax and they're just gonna win. Jason Tatum came

649
00:31:18,359 --> 00:31:21,000
back and they're just gonna win fifty five games anyway,

650
00:31:21,039 --> 00:31:22,759
despite not having him for most of the year, despite

651
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,279
shuffling around a huge chunk of their roster, including a

652
00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:29,000
major piece. When you look at Anthony Simons at the

653
00:31:29,039 --> 00:31:35,279
trade deadline, and now we're sitting here basically in April saying, yeah,

654
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:37,839
like they probably deserve to be the Eastern Conference favorites, right,

655
00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:40,599
Like Jayson Tatum hasn't even really been Jason Tatum yet.

656
00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:42,599
It looks like he's moving fine, but the efficiency's not

657
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,880
quite there. I don't I was even I thought that

658
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:48,759
there was a chance they might finish with fewer than

659
00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:51,799
thirty two because they would be so committed to like

660
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,279
being a bottom feeder with Like if you had to

661
00:31:54,319 --> 00:31:56,200
ask me before the season, I bet you I would

662
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:58,759
have said this and maybe this, maybe the win totals

663
00:31:58,759 --> 00:32:01,200
I should look a see if it reflects that which

664
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,319
team is more likely to win fewer than twenty games,

665
00:32:03,359 --> 00:32:06,079
Boston or Indiana? And I just would have said Boston

666
00:32:06,119 --> 00:32:07,880
because I thought they would have been more committed to

667
00:32:07,920 --> 00:32:08,279
the tank.

668
00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, right right, I think I agree with that, So

669
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:14,079
they're over Under was forty one and a half, which

670
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,519
I'm I can't now, I can't remember. I'm sure I

671
00:32:16,559 --> 00:32:20,920
went way under that, but that one, I I just

672
00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,200
what do you so, what do you think the biggest miscalculator?

673
00:32:26,279 --> 00:32:30,759
I guess the biggest miscalculation was that when things started

674
00:32:30,799 --> 00:32:33,079
to go not great, they would steer into it. And

675
00:32:33,119 --> 00:32:35,680
that's how you get to the hypothetically you just brought

676
00:32:35,720 --> 00:32:37,960
up of like who's like, who's likely to really have

677
00:32:38,079 --> 00:32:38,559
a low time?

678
00:32:38,599 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 1: You had to make thirty seven wins, by the way,

679
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,279
so you're only off by eighteen.

680
00:32:41,599 --> 00:32:44,079
Speaker 3: I was still I was within five of the.

681
00:32:46,359 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: I think. So I'm asking because I don't know, is

682
00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:51,839
it like? Oh, well, the takeaway is that Joe Mizzoula

683
00:32:51,880 --> 00:32:54,079
is just a better coach than we thought. The system

684
00:32:54,279 --> 00:32:56,920
works better than we thought it would with whoever you

685
00:32:56,960 --> 00:32:58,839
want to plug in there, Like, it doesn't matter that

686
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,480
baylor Shire and Ugo Gonzalez and whoever else and Neimeius

687
00:33:03,519 --> 00:33:07,680
Caita are just in place of Al Horford and Porzingis

688
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,160
and Holiday and on down the line, Like is it

689
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,960
that the personnel doesn't matter? Or is it that Boston

690
00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:17,839
quietly is really good at finding replacement personnel? I just

691
00:33:18,519 --> 00:33:20,519
I'm not. I don't think I'm ever gonna understand it.

692
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,720
Too many things happen. So what do you think that

693
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:27,880
the biggest driver, the biggest surprising driver of success, was

694
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:29,920
that made us so wrong?

695
00:33:32,079 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: The biggest driver of success? That's a good question.

696
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:38,559
Speaker 1: I think it's we underestimated Joe Mizzoula just as a

697
00:33:38,559 --> 00:33:41,160
coach because Missoula ball was they take a bunch of threes.

698
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:43,359
But then you kind of look at how the non

699
00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:46,200
Jalen Brown players have been used this year, and I

700
00:33:46,240 --> 00:33:49,559
think the other thing this was the cliche flaw to

701
00:33:49,599 --> 00:33:53,319
point out their center rotation should have been the worst

702
00:33:53,319 --> 00:33:55,759
in the league, and they've just been able to piece

703
00:33:55,799 --> 00:33:58,319
me all together with like what do we even want

704
00:33:58,359 --> 00:33:59,480
Vouch playing?

705
00:34:00,319 --> 00:34:01,599
Speaker 3: Like why don't we just run smaller?

706
00:34:01,799 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 1: Like because they've been able to do that and I

707
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:07,759
really didn't think I mean, Ugo Gonzales and bell Or Shireman.

708
00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,400
I probably didn't if I was building out ten man rotations.

709
00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:11,760
I don't know if I had either of them in

710
00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,360
Boston's coming into the year and so, and I think

711
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,159
that would actually be the final thing. Is I underestimated

712
00:34:18,639 --> 00:34:20,760
if you just have a lot of like bigger, gritty

713
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,239
wings who are gonna play hard on defense and crash

714
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,119
the glass like that can help paper over some of

715
00:34:26,159 --> 00:34:30,320
your size and or traditional physicality deficiencies.

716
00:34:30,920 --> 00:34:33,039
Speaker 3: I am interested to see.

717
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 1: Not that I'm I am skeptical, like just what does

718
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,079
this look like in the playoffs when you're leaning on

719
00:34:37,119 --> 00:34:40,199
some lesser experienced guys, when maybe it's can you play

720
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,480
vouch in the playoffs with if Kate is having a

721
00:34:42,519 --> 00:34:44,119
bad game, do you downsize at center?

722
00:34:44,119 --> 00:34:45,199
Speaker 3: How many minutes can you get by?

723
00:34:45,239 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 1: If it's a Luca Garz or is it a Jordan Walsh,

724
00:34:47,559 --> 00:34:50,760
are you going like super small? So there are some questions,

725
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,599
but they've earned more than the benefit of the doubt

726
00:34:53,679 --> 00:34:54,320
at this point.

727
00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:57,960
Speaker 2: Definitely. I think the last thing I'd say is h

728
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,639
Jalen Brown choosing to use this year as a as

729
00:35:01,679 --> 00:35:05,360
like an I'll show you year as opposed to well

730
00:35:05,519 --> 00:35:07,599
we'll just there's no point, we'll wait it out. I

731
00:35:07,599 --> 00:35:10,000
think if the guy that is at the top of

732
00:35:10,039 --> 00:35:16,719
your team food chain basically decides that, it convinces himself that, no,

733
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,519
we're not actually a forty one win team or whatever

734
00:35:19,559 --> 00:35:22,480
it is. We because I'm here and because now I

735
00:35:22,559 --> 00:35:24,840
get to do what I've known I could do all along,

736
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,920
just trying to crawl inside his head. You know we're

737
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:29,960
going to be great, because why wouldn't we be? Because

738
00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,559
now I get to just And I think maybe that

739
00:35:31,599 --> 00:35:33,360
has an effect on the rest of the team where

740
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:37,239
it's you can't you know, if Jalen Brown is going

741
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,079
to play this hard and this well and this consistently,

742
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,679
and you're the if and you're Baylor Shireman or whoever else,

743
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,760
you don't get to, like, treat this as a gap year.

744
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:48,519
If the top guy's not treating it that way, you

745
00:35:48,519 --> 00:35:50,880
don't get to either. So there's some of that. It's

746
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,519
Missoula and Brown and just I don't know that the

747
00:35:53,559 --> 00:35:57,719
Celtics are good at every other aspect of tactical basketball

748
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:01,920
and team building and everything else. Just pretty pretty top,

749
00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,079
pretty impressive start to finish for them.

750
00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: Grant if warning a fan base that progress isn't linear

751
00:36:09,519 --> 00:36:12,360
was an Olympic sport. I would have gold medaled. When

752
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,599
it came to talking about the Detroit Pistons. Heading into

753
00:36:14,639 --> 00:36:17,920
the season, they were projected to win forty six and

754
00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:21,559
a half and I claimed that was too high. I said,

755
00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:24,159
they're gonna win forty four. They're currently on pace to

756
00:36:24,199 --> 00:36:25,360
win sixty.

757
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:26,800
Speaker 3: That is stupid.

758
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: And they've been playing well without Kate Cunningham too, while

759
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:36,039
he's recovering from the collapse along. This is their identity.

760
00:36:36,159 --> 00:36:38,079
I don't think it, like, what what do you think?

761
00:36:38,639 --> 00:36:42,679
What's the biggest surprise about them? Because their identity is

762
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,559
what you would really expect. It's yeah, kde on offense,

763
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,920
and then they have just a ton of versatility and

764
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:50,960
size and physicality on the defense. And the end, what

765
00:36:51,119 --> 00:36:54,519
is the I'm sure neither of us had Donnis Jenkins

766
00:36:54,519 --> 00:36:58,440
penciled in for like coming onto the scene, But what

767
00:36:58,599 --> 00:37:01,239
is it about this team? And even though so they

768
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,880
out I'm sorry I didn't, they outperformed there over under

769
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,400
by thirteen and a half wins in total, so right

770
00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,639
in line with the Suns and the Celtics relative to

771
00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:12,960
overall projections. But like in hindsight, it's sort of one

772
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,199
of those things where they're doing everything that they did

773
00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:17,519
last year. I gues's just really better like every like

774
00:37:17,960 --> 00:37:21,880
Joeen Duran I think is probably the most notable just classics.

775
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 2: The one that's the one where he almost doubles his

776
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:26,960
points per game and does it in a way that

777
00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:32,679
I think it's him and Jenkins, and probably the supporting

778
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:36,639
shooting being I don't know, still not good but not

779
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:40,320
a complete disaster. It's kind of those three things, because

780
00:37:40,559 --> 00:37:43,679
I think we could foresee Cunningham making a leap to

781
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,119
this level or right around it, even if that's not

782
00:37:46,159 --> 00:37:47,880
even a leap, like he was fairly close to this

783
00:37:47,920 --> 00:37:50,840
a year ago, and the defense being good and them

784
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:54,239
being physical and all of that stuff was built in,

785
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:56,599
I guess because I was right there with you. By

786
00:37:56,639 --> 00:38:00,599
the way, sixteen wins off exactly the same. I guess

787
00:38:01,360 --> 00:38:05,880
what we didn't account for was that the offense would

788
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:08,880
be capable enough, even though that's still our thing we

789
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,199
harp on. It was like, Wow, if kid can't generate

790
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:14,559
the shot, there's no shot getting generated. That's a problem.

791
00:38:15,039 --> 00:38:16,360
Speaker 3: Tobias Harris was right there.

792
00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 2: It was just right there, just sitting right there. So yeah,

793
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:21,559
I guess. I mean, I don't feel like we were

794
00:38:21,599 --> 00:38:25,039
that off in terms of the strengths and weaknesses of

795
00:38:25,079 --> 00:38:27,639
the Pistons. It's just the strength was a little stronger

796
00:38:27,639 --> 00:38:30,119
and the weakness wasn't quite as pronounced maybe as we expected.

797
00:38:30,159 --> 00:38:34,159
That doesn't account for sixteen wins, but it makes it

798
00:38:34,159 --> 00:38:37,039
at a little easier to understand, especially when I was

799
00:38:37,039 --> 00:38:39,800
sitting here extolling the virtues of them, like getting Karris

800
00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,280
LeVert right season has been uneasy matter, to put it charitably, Yeah,

801
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,320
I don't. I don't feel like he's made an impact.

802
00:38:45,559 --> 00:38:48,119
So yeah, that you know, that's a pleasant one, like

803
00:38:48,159 --> 00:38:51,360
the Phoenix one. Nice. Nice for them to beat expectations

804
00:38:51,400 --> 00:38:52,800
in a positive way by so much.

805
00:38:54,039 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 3: The other thing that happened grant my streak being wrong.

806
00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: About the Memphis Grizzlies when it comes to predicting they're

807
00:39:01,039 --> 00:39:06,360
over under has officially ended. They were projected to win.

808
00:39:07,199 --> 00:39:08,920
What were they at in their over under.

809
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,079
Speaker 3: Thirty nine and a half thirty nine and a half.

810
00:39:11,119 --> 00:39:14,239
They were going to win a lot less than that.

811
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:19,119
Speaker 1: They're on pace four twenty seven, so they are minus

812
00:39:19,119 --> 00:39:20,079
twelve point five.

813
00:39:20,679 --> 00:39:24,760
Speaker 3: I had them projected for on my own. Why don't

814
00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:27,440
I see it here? I had them at thirty eight,

815
00:39:27,639 --> 00:39:30,760
so like not, Oh no, I had them? No, what

816
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:32,519
did I have them at? I can't. I can't find it.

817
00:39:32,559 --> 00:39:33,199
But we didn't.

818
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,559
Speaker 1: I was off by I was still off. I wasn't

819
00:39:35,559 --> 00:39:38,039
low enough by them. I missed by eleven wins. So

820
00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:41,239
no greade shakes there. But I hit the under and

821
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,679
they're gonna clear the under shout out to me. Then

822
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,679
I guess, but what is this?

823
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:48,679
Speaker 3: Was? I we probably should have.

824
00:39:48,599 --> 00:39:50,960
Speaker 1: Been lower on the Grizzlies after the Desmond Bay trade.

825
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,639
That signaled something was I we didn't buy into, oh,

826
00:39:54,679 --> 00:39:57,400
this isn't going to be a rebuilder transition year. But

827
00:39:57,440 --> 00:40:01,320
I guess we assumed they weren't gonna trade Jared Jackson

828
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,119
Junior had Maybe I also probably assumed that Tai Jerome

829
00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:06,119
wasn't gonna miss two thirds of the season, and then

830
00:40:06,119 --> 00:40:07,800
I also probably assumed he wasn't gonna come back and

831
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,039
be an MVP candidate, which he basically has been.

832
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,440
Speaker 2: So I think I think you throw in the jaw.

833
00:40:14,599 --> 00:40:16,559
You probably you don't get to say, well, I didn't

834
00:40:16,559 --> 00:40:18,320
think it would be this bad for Jaw because that

835
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:20,800
was on the table. Even though I missed I missed

836
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:23,960
by more here I was sixteen wins off, so I

837
00:40:24,079 --> 00:40:29,480
was even more optimistic about Memphis, and that had something

838
00:40:29,519 --> 00:40:31,519
to do with I don't think Jaw is going to

839
00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:34,280
have a complete zero of a season. I also thought

840
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:36,840
that the combo of Jerome and Scotti Pippen Jr. Would

841
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,639
make it so that even if Jaw was not good,

842
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:41,800
their point guard position would be totally fine. Between those two.

843
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,000
I probably assumed that Edie would play. I mean, Edie

844
00:40:46,039 --> 00:40:48,280
was a super duper star for the like five seconds

845
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,800
that he played this year, so that hurt and and

846
00:40:52,599 --> 00:40:55,880
I don't know, maybe expected more out of the Wings

847
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,719
like Wells and KCP, and I could can't profess to

848
00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,159
have known anything about Coward, or at least nothing that

849
00:41:01,199 --> 00:41:04,920
would have made me optimistic about them, but everything went

850
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:07,480
wrong and then they blew it up, So I don't know.

851
00:41:07,519 --> 00:41:09,480
I don't feel as bad about missing this as I

852
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:13,719
do like say Phoenix or Boston, but pretty agree much

853
00:41:13,719 --> 00:41:15,920
more egregious miss for me than for you.

854
00:41:16,000 --> 00:41:19,920
Speaker 1: This is you having them at forty three wins is

855
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:23,440
that's not your biggest discrepancy, but that is that I'm

856
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,719
surprised them that high.

857
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 3: I had them at thirty eight.

858
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: It's tied. Them and Dallas are tied for my biggest

859
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:32,840
overestimations of the season.

860
00:41:34,039 --> 00:41:35,920
Speaker 3: This is so neither of us had this net.

861
00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:37,360
Speaker 1: We have another team, we have two more teams that

862
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,039
we're gonna get to, but this is the tenth team

863
00:41:39,039 --> 00:41:41,719
that according to projections, the over unders coming into the

864
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:45,800
season had one of the biggest discrepancies. The Bucks minus

865
00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:47,920
nine and a half wins below.

866
00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 3: They're over under.

867
00:41:49,800 --> 00:41:56,119
Speaker 1: I I don't know why. I don't know why people

868
00:41:56,199 --> 00:41:59,000
were as optimistic. Even I kind of talked myself into like.

869
00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:01,800
Speaker 3: Well, maybe the whole they just have all this.

870
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: Dead money from Damian Loward on the books, they might

871
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,320
just end up being Okay. Did we expect, given Giannis

872
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:11,280
is just injury history, that he would somehow play in

873
00:42:11,519 --> 00:42:13,760
more games than normal, and like, maybe he's been on

874
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,599
the extreme end of dealing with the injuries here At

875
00:42:16,639 --> 00:42:18,639
the same time, you even look at the number now,

876
00:42:19,039 --> 00:42:21,239
they were at forty two and a half and I

877
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:23,320
had them penciled in for forty three, so I went

878
00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:26,159
slightly over and they're now on pace to win thirty three.

879
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,159
I guess that number just felt so low in an

880
00:42:29,199 --> 00:42:32,719
Eastern Conference where it was. Oh, the seventy six ers

881
00:42:32,920 --> 00:42:35,559
are implosive, and we weren't taking in a ton of

882
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,599
this level of improvement from the Pistons.

883
00:42:38,079 --> 00:42:41,800
Speaker 3: I don't. This is just I think in retrospect, coming

884
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,719
into the season, everyone should have had the Bucks below

885
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,880
five hundred. We did not. Vegas did not. Therefore I apologize.

886
00:42:48,480 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 2: I'm trying to see what I had him at. So

887
00:42:50,039 --> 00:42:53,440
I went under there. I had him at forty two,

888
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,920
so I was half paint under just bold, really bold

889
00:42:57,199 --> 00:42:59,960
by me. I'm trying to I wish I could remember,

890
00:43:00,079 --> 00:43:01,880
or I'd say this every time we do this. I

891
00:43:02,320 --> 00:43:05,320
wish I could remember if we were pricing in uh

892
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,880
Yannis trade. As you know, well, we got to adjust

893
00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,039
a few wins downward on the on the odds that

894
00:43:11,079 --> 00:43:13,880
they move him. But that still doesn't that doesn't ex

895
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:15,480
We're both we did.

896
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:16,280
Speaker 3: I think we didn't.

897
00:43:16,559 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, maybe he didn't, so we were right.

898
00:43:18,559 --> 00:43:19,800
Speaker 3: They didn't trade Giannis.

899
00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:22,519
Speaker 1: We were wrong that that's going to lead to more

900
00:43:22,519 --> 00:43:23,679
than forty one wins.

901
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. I don't have a lot to say other than

902
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:31,440
just this is a rough situation in Milwaukee, and I'm

903
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,480
sorry that you guys have to go through this. Yeah,

904
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:34,840
I don't know.

905
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: Was that just that like smitten by the Miles Turner addition,

906
00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:43,159
I was not it has to be.

907
00:43:43,119 --> 00:43:46,639
Speaker 2: They have Yannis, how bad can it get? Maybe was

908
00:43:46,639 --> 00:43:49,079
was the was the thinking? So yeah, I don't know.

909
00:43:49,079 --> 00:43:52,719
We weren't crazy off, but but that's a well I

910
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:54,639
guess I would say I didn't foresee him missing as

911
00:43:54,679 --> 00:43:56,400
much time as he has because he's never really had

912
00:43:56,400 --> 00:43:58,760
a season quite like this, where he's just had several

913
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:02,679
prolonged absences, all of which he's wanted to shorten. But

914
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:03,440
the Bucks are.

915
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 1: So this final team was not one of Vegas's ten

916
00:44:10,079 --> 00:44:10,880
Biggas misses.

917
00:44:11,039 --> 00:44:11,880
Speaker 3: It was one of ours.

918
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:14,239
Speaker 1: The Warriors by Vegas, We're gonna miss their win total

919
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:17,280
by seven and a half victories. I was eleven wins

920
00:44:17,519 --> 00:44:20,239
too optimistic, Grant was ten wins too optimistic. Who's the

921
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:23,280
real Dubs fan around these parts? It is my question?

922
00:44:24,719 --> 00:44:27,679
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't feel like I have to explain

923
00:44:27,719 --> 00:44:32,239
myself at all on this one. We had a lot

924
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:34,920
of conversations about, well, this is a pretty old group,

925
00:44:35,039 --> 00:44:36,840
like what happens if they break down? It's like, well,

926
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:41,280
there's nothing in the profile indicates catastrophic injury. Is likely

927
00:44:41,679 --> 00:44:45,559
for like say Jimmy Butler or anybody, and then there

928
00:44:45,559 --> 00:44:51,239
you go, and then Steph having the weirdest nagging two

929
00:44:51,320 --> 00:44:53,880
months out plus now he's gonna get over two months

930
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:57,800
before he's back with runners knee. So the old guys

931
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,119
got old Horford's out. Now it's just you know that

932
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,199
was in a lot of ways. This one is if

933
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:06,480
you had just I'll say me, if I had just

934
00:45:07,039 --> 00:45:09,599
viewed it objectively, like this isn't the Warriors, this is

935
00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:12,360
some other team and the best players are thirty seven,

936
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,880
thirty eight, forty and whatever, what do you think is

937
00:45:15,880 --> 00:45:17,960
going to happen this year? I would say, well, they're

938
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,079
all going to get hurt, and that's what That's what

939
00:45:20,119 --> 00:45:21,760
should have happened here. But it didn't.

940
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:24,920
Speaker 1: To be fair, Steph one healthy is still a top

941
00:45:24,960 --> 00:45:27,920
ten player, so it's easier to I think, fall in

942
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:28,639
the more.

943
00:45:28,639 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 3: Optimist again in the spectrum. But you but you are correct.

944
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:33,559
Speaker 1: I don't know that I would have predicted Jimmy Butler

945
00:45:33,599 --> 00:45:38,000
tearing an ACL that Moses Moses injury was brutal. I

946
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:39,559
don't know if you were watching that in real time

947
00:45:39,599 --> 00:45:43,360
and I was. Peacock went in. Did you get the

948
00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:44,239
zoom in on the injury.

949
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,559
Speaker 2: They only once though, they only really zoomed in the

950
00:45:46,599 --> 00:45:49,599
one time, and that was enough. Oh that's okay, he's

951
00:45:49,639 --> 00:45:49,960
gonna be.

952
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:52,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, seeing your knee kind of have that Like Concave

953
00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:55,719
was not not great. I haven't heard, by the way

954
00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:57,880
that was was that American Airlines Center. I don't know

955
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:01,239
the last time I heard an arena that silent when

956
00:46:01,280 --> 00:46:03,239
it happened? Was it even that quiet when what happened

957
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:05,000
to Kevin Duran or Klay Thompson? And if I just

958
00:46:05,159 --> 00:46:06,119
use the Warriors as an.

959
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:10,039
Speaker 2: Analog, it's it's hard to say. I mean, are there

960
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:12,639
degrees of silence, Like it's either silent or it's not.

961
00:46:12,679 --> 00:46:15,119
And it was. It was, it was silent. There was

962
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,880
a road a road arena too, like everybody. Everybody knew

963
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,519
right away. You can tell by how the bench reacts

964
00:46:21,679 --> 00:46:23,840
when the hands go, when guys go like that, I'm

965
00:46:23,840 --> 00:46:26,760
putting my hands on my head for listeners, it's just

966
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:31,119
they know, it's they know. And this was an instant

967
00:46:31,119 --> 00:46:34,719
case of like fuck, Like guys on both benches were

968
00:46:34,760 --> 00:46:36,280
sure right away, this is a big deal.

969
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:41,360
Speaker 1: H Do you have any closing thoughts on the over

970
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:44,480
under exercise as to you know you are on pace

971
00:46:44,559 --> 00:46:46,800
to be eighteen and twelve, and keep them on pace

972
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:49,599
to be seventeen and thirteen. We will announce the winner,

973
00:46:49,599 --> 00:46:50,920
like we said, once the season's over.

974
00:46:51,000 --> 00:46:54,119
Speaker 3: Of the discord, Okay, I can tell you with confidence

975
00:46:54,159 --> 00:46:55,760
that neither of you were to win.

976
00:46:57,199 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: Something's wrong with either of us. I'm always looking for takeaways, like,

977
00:47:00,760 --> 00:47:04,360
what's the rule, what's the lesson we can glean from

978
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:07,679
this that will make us slightly less bad at this

979
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,639
exercise in years to come? And is it maybe? Nah,

980
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,880
it's I was just gonna say, well, maybe don't count

981
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:21,519
out a once contender that seems to have fallen on

982
00:47:21,599 --> 00:47:23,519
hard times. But even that rule doesn't make sense because

983
00:47:23,519 --> 00:47:26,119
it applies us to Boston but not Indiana. So I

984
00:47:26,280 --> 00:47:28,679
just I just don't know the fact that those two

985
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:31,840
teams went in such completely opposite directions well, having like

986
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,519
a lot of very similar similar problems. Wow, it's it

987
00:47:35,559 --> 00:47:37,960
could be a gap year. Our best player has the

988
00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,360
same injury at torn Achilles, may or may not be

989
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,039
back like we've we've had some talent drain. We've the

990
00:47:44,079 --> 00:47:47,440
Pacers lose Turner, the Celtics lose sixty percent of their

991
00:47:47,480 --> 00:47:50,119
eight man rows. I just I so I guess I

992
00:47:50,119 --> 00:47:52,119
don't know. I don't know. I don't have a final thought.

993
00:47:52,119 --> 00:47:57,159
I don't have a lesson. We've learned nothing by sheer happenstance.

994
00:47:57,199 --> 00:47:58,840
I think we were better this year than last, and

995
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,519
I don't I can't prompt us that trend will continue.

996
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,079
Your victory lap should be you hit three teams as

997
00:48:05,159 --> 00:48:08,480
win totals right on the head as of right now.

998
00:48:08,599 --> 00:48:10,639
You had the Hawks at forty six, the Knicks at

999
00:48:10,639 --> 00:48:15,360
fifty three, and the Wizards at nineteen. I don't believe

1000
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:18,480
I had any exact I should I'm gonna check that

1001
00:48:18,639 --> 00:48:20,559
really quickly and see.

1002
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:22,960
Speaker 3: But you having three, I mean like, hey, look at you.

1003
00:48:23,000 --> 00:48:23,599
That's grant.

1004
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: That is ten percent. Ten percent nailed it right. I

1005
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:28,719
mean I had two.

1006
00:48:29,039 --> 00:48:33,079
Speaker 1: So I had the Heat at forty four wins and

1007
00:48:33,119 --> 00:48:35,440
the Jazz at twenty four wins, which they're both on

1008
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,119
pace to hit. So I had I had those two.

1009
00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: I mean this, The Hawks have gotten here through a

1010
00:48:43,079 --> 00:48:46,039
route that I did not foresee, so I don't feel

1011
00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:47,679
like I can claim any And they had to win

1012
00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:50,559
fourteen out of whatever fourteen they go fourteen and one

1013
00:48:50,800 --> 00:48:54,679
or something against the softest schedule slate anybody's had all year,

1014
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:57,840
and now they're on pay. Who knows. I will take

1015
00:48:57,840 --> 00:48:59,920
the Knicks though, I felt the Knicks have not way.

1016
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:02,519
They've been on pace for what they're about to do

1017
00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:05,519
all year, and it's film a nice fifty three.

1018
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:09,880
Speaker 1: I was drunk on preseason basketball when looking at mckel bridges,

1019
00:49:09,960 --> 00:49:12,639
rim pressure the Knicks playing at a faster base, never

1020
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:13,719
a that was.

1021
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:16,159
Speaker 3: That was on me. They don't play a bunch faster.

1022
00:49:16,679 --> 00:49:19,039
Speaker 1: Mckel bridges is fading away from the basket as we

1023
00:49:19,079 --> 00:49:20,280
speak right now.

1024
00:49:20,320 --> 00:49:23,599
Speaker 2: Probably so he walked he was walking down the street

1025
00:49:23,599 --> 00:49:25,679
and saw a basket like the kids are playing pick

1026
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,559
up on and he instantly moved three feet away from it.

1027
00:49:28,639 --> 00:49:29,840
Just couldn't help himself.

1028
00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:32,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, so that was I was. I was a little

1029
00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:34,679
bit too high on them. You want to get to

1030
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:37,960
some news. Okay, let's talk about this one.

1031
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:39,679
Speaker 3: We're gonna get the tank ging. Let's do the NBA

1032
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:40,679
PA stuff.

1033
00:49:40,679 --> 00:49:45,159
Speaker 1: First, they came out and railed against two things, the

1034
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:49,719
Bucks trying to shut down Giannis Attenta Kumbo for the season,

1035
00:49:50,199 --> 00:49:54,480
and then coming out against the sixty five game threshold rules,

1036
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:57,280
specifically mentioning Cake Cunningham, who's had a first team All

1037
00:49:57,400 --> 00:49:59,079
NBA caliber season.

1038
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:02,639
Speaker 3: I I think we both sayanas stuff was.

1039
00:50:03,199 --> 00:50:04,960
Speaker 1: I probably had a little bit stronger feelings on it

1040
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:07,480
than you did, but we both aligned in the sense

1041
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:11,119
of it's just a bummer that the games played threshold

1042
00:50:11,199 --> 00:50:13,880
is incollectively bargained and that the players had absolutely no

1043
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:16,320
say in determining whether that was. And I say that,

1044
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:18,920
by the way, as someone who's not really a fan

1045
00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:22,480
of the sixty five games played rule, and I've seen

1046
00:50:22,519 --> 00:50:25,119
a lot of hand ringing over why do you want

1047
00:50:25,159 --> 00:50:27,039
an MVP to be able to play in fewer than

1048
00:50:27,039 --> 00:50:30,760
sixty five games? That's probably never gonna happen. I guess

1049
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,280
this year, if Shay, Jokic and Wemby all missed the

1050
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:38,280
sixty five game cut, it was a possibility. But like,

1051
00:50:39,000 --> 00:50:41,840
this was more about the All NBA discussion, because now

1052
00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:44,400
you might get these weird ass teams and it's trust

1053
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:49,559
the voters to decide whether someone playing in sixty games

1054
00:50:49,679 --> 00:50:52,480
or K Cunningham's K sixty two games, sixty one, whatever

1055
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:54,960
it is, is deserving of an All NBA spot.

1056
00:50:55,039 --> 00:50:55,440
Speaker 3: Give them.

1057
00:50:55,760 --> 00:50:58,639
Speaker 1: If you don't trust them to make that decision, then

1058
00:50:58,679 --> 00:51:02,519
they shouldn't have a vote and just pretending I'm also

1059
00:51:02,559 --> 00:51:05,320
tired of pretending that this wasn't about like the NBA

1060
00:51:05,679 --> 00:51:07,480
generating their current TV contract.

1061
00:51:07,639 --> 00:51:11,599
Speaker 2: That's the other thing is like the effect, what it's

1062
00:51:11,639 --> 00:51:15,039
having effects on voting was just had nothing to do

1063
00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:18,280
with like the reasons for the rule being put in place.

1064
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:22,119
It was to have these bidders in the TV provider

1065
00:51:22,559 --> 00:51:27,000
media right, TV media rights war. It was to assure

1066
00:51:27,039 --> 00:51:31,000
them that the product you're purchasing will have, to the

1067
00:51:31,039 --> 00:51:33,679
extent we can make it possible, will have the best guys,

1068
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,920
the most marketable players available as much as we can.

1069
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:41,360
That's why the rule exists. It's not there's I mean again,

1070
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,920
it runs counter to the idea that like NBA basketball

1071
00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:47,199
is harder to play than ever, guys need more rest.

1072
00:51:47,559 --> 00:51:50,320
It's crazy in this one sense to have a rule

1073
00:51:50,360 --> 00:51:53,599
that requires them to play more than maybe the otherwise

1074
00:51:53,639 --> 00:51:57,519
would for awards consideration, for whatever else, Like the incentive

1075
00:51:57,559 --> 00:52:00,039
alignment is all out of whack on that one. But

1076
00:52:00,039 --> 00:52:05,800
it and I think maybe it's because it feels like

1077
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:08,679
there's just a lot of complaining about the product right now,

1078
00:52:08,800 --> 00:52:15,519
from tanking to gambling, podcasting to podcast to the lottery reform.

1079
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:19,239
Nobody's happy with anything, and then for this to come

1080
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:24,039
out where the Players Association is bitching about a rule

1081
00:52:24,559 --> 00:52:29,119
that it had every opportunity to fight against. Now, I'm

1082
00:52:29,159 --> 00:52:32,760
sure the Players Association got stuff in exchange for agreeing

1083
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:36,199
to this. That's fine, it's collectively bargained. I don't want

1084
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,199
to hear it. I don't want to hear like we

1085
00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:40,239
all know, we all get it. We don't like the rule,

1086
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,800
but we all didn't agree to it. You did, so correct,

1087
00:52:45,119 --> 00:52:47,679
Shut up. I don't want to hear it. It's it's

1088
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,159
it right like to me, that's kind of where it ends.

1089
00:52:50,159 --> 00:52:54,639
I just okay, next time you collectively bargain, think a

1090
00:52:54,639 --> 00:52:57,679
little think about whether you're gonna want this. And this

1091
00:52:57,800 --> 00:53:01,199
is not exactly difficult to force consequence. This is like

1092
00:53:01,519 --> 00:53:05,039
you know this, This is eminently foreseeable, and I hope

1093
00:53:05,119 --> 00:53:07,719
was discussed and probably it was decided not a big

1094
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:10,039
enough deal to say no to this because we're getting

1095
00:53:10,039 --> 00:53:12,800
other stuff we want as we're negotiating the CBA. So

1096
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,840
like I, I have no time for it.

1097
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:18,599
Speaker 1: The idea behind whenever we come out against this, we

1098
00:53:18,639 --> 00:53:20,880
get a lot of comments about oh, in other eras

1099
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,920
they played all these minutes and all these games, there

1100
00:53:22,960 --> 00:53:25,039
was Even if you think the game was the big

1101
00:53:25,079 --> 00:53:28,719
beautiful game was better then than it is now, it

1102
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:31,519
just wasn't as there wasn't as much of a demand

1103
00:53:31,519 --> 00:53:33,320
on the bodies relative to the style that they're playing.

1104
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:34,679
When you're getting up and down the court, when you're

1105
00:53:34,679 --> 00:53:37,480
looking at the way guys move, it's a facial that's

1106
00:53:37,519 --> 00:53:37,920
a fact.

1107
00:53:37,960 --> 00:53:41,760
Speaker 2: Like this is not a discussion anymore. I won't another issue.

1108
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:42,039
Speaker 3: I'm not.

1109
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:43,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear no, I won't if you're

1110
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:45,760
if you're not willing to branch out at least consider,

1111
00:53:45,960 --> 00:53:48,719
I'll talk with anybody. Actually, I think it's a problem

1112
00:53:49,079 --> 00:53:52,000
that that's a perception, Like that's a perception problem that

1113
00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:53,960
if you were the NBA, I don't know what you're

1114
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:55,679
supposed to, but like it is a problem, so it's

1115
00:53:55,679 --> 00:53:57,800
worth addressing. But if you're not even willing to consider it,

1116
00:53:58,119 --> 00:54:00,440
or you're just coming in flat out and saying that

1117
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:02,639
it was better about like Michael Jordan will cow many

1118
00:54:02,639 --> 00:54:05,119
minutes he played and just the game was different, then

1119
00:54:05,199 --> 00:54:08,480
even if you preferred that game, fine, that's all, listen

1120
00:54:08,519 --> 00:54:10,880
to that. But the game is more physically demanding right now.

1121
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:14,039
The other pushback we get is why does everyone not

1122
00:54:14,079 --> 00:54:15,800
want to see the players play? We have to show

1123
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:18,079
up to our jobs every day, this and that. Yeah,

1124
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:20,639
no shit, I want to see the best players play.

1125
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:24,599
In in spirit, if you could turn injuries off, yeah,

1126
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:27,639
it should be an eighty two game rule then, but

1127
00:54:27,719 --> 00:54:30,039
you can't turn injuries off. And so while I do

1128
00:54:30,159 --> 00:54:33,880
agree that, yes, I want for the fan experience, which,

1129
00:54:33,960 --> 00:54:35,960
by the way, this was not about.

1130
00:54:36,440 --> 00:54:38,519
Speaker 3: This wasn't about the fan experience. This was about the

1131
00:54:38,559 --> 00:54:39,079
TV deal.

1132
00:54:39,119 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 1: It should have been about the fan experience, but the

1133
00:54:41,800 --> 00:54:44,960
almighty dollar is gonna come over everything, including the fan experience.

1134
00:54:45,079 --> 00:54:48,000
I don't know that the sixty five game rule. If

1135
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:49,960
you want to sit and use that as a rationalization,

1136
00:54:50,199 --> 00:54:54,320
explain to me how this has improved the fan experience.

1137
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:57,920
I don't think that it has other than giving us

1138
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:01,039
something else to argue about. I want the best players

1139
00:55:01,079 --> 00:55:03,480
to play, but I also do believe that there are

1140
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,639
players who have come back earlier than expected from injury

1141
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:09,199
or tried to play through injury that should not have

1142
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,960
because of this rule. And the rule is then that

1143
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:14,440
comes back to do you have the sixty five game rule,

1144
00:55:14,480 --> 00:55:17,239
but you no longer tie a all NBA. Let's say

1145
00:55:17,599 --> 00:55:21,159
to your contract status, the ability to get more money,

1146
00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:24,440
like especially coming out of your rookie extension. Maybe that

1147
00:55:24,480 --> 00:55:27,440
would be a potential solve, but this isn't. We don't

1148
00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:29,760
want to see Caid Cunningham play basketball. We don't want

1149
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:33,039
to see Nicole Jokich or Victor wm Byama play basketball. No,

1150
00:55:33,119 --> 00:55:35,679
we do, but I don't want to see these players

1151
00:55:35,679 --> 00:55:37,440
get hurt or if they do get hurt. In the

1152
00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,000
case of kid, how many Look at how many of

1153
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:44,800
the Pistons games, even the disaster rule whatever it's called,

1154
00:55:44,840 --> 00:55:47,280
the catastrophe rule, Like he didn't even qualify for that

1155
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:49,559
because he appeared and you need to appear an x

1156
00:55:49,599 --> 00:55:53,199
amount of games like before your quote unquote season ending injury.

1157
00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:55,239
Speaker 3: And so it's just like that sucks.

1158
00:55:55,400 --> 00:55:56,800
Speaker 1: But I am with you in the sense of I

1159
00:55:56,800 --> 00:55:59,119
don't want to hear it from the NBA Players Association

1160
00:55:59,239 --> 00:56:03,719
because they are at maybe not they're they're half responsible

1161
00:56:03,760 --> 00:56:04,719
for this, Like right.

1162
00:56:06,000 --> 00:56:10,920
Speaker 2: I think I would imagine that the Players Association knows

1163
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,960
that our reaction is what's gonna like they know we

1164
00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:19,159
don't want to hear it, but their job is to

1165
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:21,880
advocate for I'm just trying to like, this doesn't excuse it.

1166
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:23,719
What I think. What I'm what I think is happening

1167
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:27,119
here is the Players Association is supposed to advocate for

1168
00:56:27,159 --> 00:56:30,199
the players, and this is very much performative like that

1169
00:56:31,159 --> 00:56:35,000
Kid Cunningham is just like, okay, that that's a nice isolated,

1170
00:56:35,159 --> 00:56:39,079
high profile case where we need to show our players

1171
00:56:39,079 --> 00:56:42,840
and maybe even kid specifically, Hey man, we're doing our job,

1172
00:56:43,039 --> 00:56:46,000
like we're here. We are here to support you, to

1173
00:56:46,039 --> 00:56:48,840
advocate for you, to take up your interests, and on

1174
00:56:48,880 --> 00:56:50,800
and on and on. So we got to say something.

1175
00:56:51,079 --> 00:56:54,199
We know everybody's gonna like, turn it, just roll their eyes,

1176
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:57,079
but we should say something just so we're we're performing

1177
00:56:57,119 --> 00:57:00,079
our duties even though we know this won't change anything,

1178
00:57:00,559 --> 00:57:02,719
and everybody's gonna roll their eyes and think this is

1179
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,960
stupid because yeah, we remember we did collectively bargain for this.

1180
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:06,800
We didn't forget that.

1181
00:57:06,920 --> 00:57:10,280
Speaker 1: You know, I guess here's my I I would probably

1182
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,480
agree with that. Here's my issue with the risk reward

1183
00:57:13,519 --> 00:57:16,400
profile of doing that. Where was this, just to use

1184
00:57:16,440 --> 00:57:18,719
an example, where was this last year when Wenby could

1185
00:57:18,719 --> 00:57:20,840
have been Defensive Player of the Year while playing in fifty.

1186
00:57:20,639 --> 00:57:24,199
Speaker 3: Eight games and wasn't. I don't know, like, why this why?

1187
00:57:24,320 --> 00:57:27,000
Speaker 1: Like Kate already got his max contract too, It's like,

1188
00:57:27,079 --> 00:57:32,039
why this why now? Especially when you're not like it

1189
00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:35,079
does If I'm Kay Cunningham, unless I was for the

1190
00:57:35,119 --> 00:57:37,639
sixty five game rule and involved in the bargaining of that.

1191
00:57:38,239 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 3: I'm seeing the NBA PA come out. Why am I

1192
00:57:40,519 --> 00:57:42,280
feeling better? You don't have my back.

1193
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:43,920
Speaker 1: If you would have had the back of players, you

1194
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:47,280
would have done something about this during CBA negotiating means.

1195
00:57:47,360 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I again, I think who knows what was coming

1196
00:57:51,360 --> 00:57:54,320
back in that negotiation in exchange for agreeing to this rule,

1197
00:57:54,360 --> 00:57:56,000
because it should have been a difficult one for players

1198
00:57:56,039 --> 00:57:58,079
to agree to. I think just trying to imagine myself

1199
00:57:58,119 --> 00:58:02,000
in the room. I do think as far as for like,

1200
00:58:02,400 --> 00:58:05,079
well why now, as opposed to the example you give

1201
00:58:05,119 --> 00:58:08,239
of last year, I gotta believe that the Players Association

1202
00:58:08,360 --> 00:58:11,760
is taking the temperature and realizing, like everybody hates this rule.

1203
00:58:12,519 --> 00:58:14,679
It's just like public sentiment has reached a point where

1204
00:58:14,719 --> 00:58:17,960
now it's like, well, they'll think we're being stupid for

1205
00:58:18,079 --> 00:58:21,599
complaining because we agreed to this, But at least the

1206
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:24,199
the thing we're saying is public is like.

1207
00:58:24,159 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: Sort of because you have different leadership too.

1208
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:30,280
Speaker 1: It wasn't was involved with that, so that's I didn't

1209
00:58:30,280 --> 00:58:31,239
I failed to consider that.

1210
00:58:31,239 --> 00:58:31,920
Speaker 3: There's a few things.

1211
00:58:31,960 --> 00:58:34,880
Speaker 2: No, it doesn't change the fact that I think we're

1212
00:58:34,920 --> 00:58:36,840
correct to be like fuck off, Like I don't want

1213
00:58:36,840 --> 00:58:39,159
to hear like this is enough about this.

1214
00:58:39,239 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 3: Like do you have any impressions about what they.

1215
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:47,719
Speaker 1: I did find it funny with the Yannis stuff about

1216
00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:50,800
them coming out in support of like the ability, Like

1217
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:53,639
that's not something that they did negotiate it. So it's

1218
00:58:53,679 --> 00:58:56,519
this whole like the league still has the ability to

1219
00:58:56,519 --> 00:58:59,159
shut players down, but you want them to play, and

1220
00:58:59,159 --> 00:59:03,320
you're signing a player participation policy that you weren't consulted

1221
00:59:03,360 --> 00:59:05,679
on or didn't have any power in negotiating. It's just

1222
00:59:06,199 --> 00:59:09,239
it's so weird. I don't know where the y honest stuff.

1223
00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:13,920
I actually just think is the Buck's fault. Is that Okay, yes,

1224
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:16,800
you know who Yannis is and what he's wanted to

1225
00:59:16,800 --> 00:59:19,400
do in the past. Now is Yianna's being excessively stubborn

1226
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:23,079
because he's trying to look for any cover if and

1227
00:59:23,119 --> 00:59:27,320
when he does decide, oh okay, I want out and

1228
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:29,079
did everything for Milwaukee.

1229
00:59:29,159 --> 00:59:31,960
Speaker 3: Okay, he might be, but none of this is new.

1230
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:33,320
This is you had.

1231
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:35,800
Speaker 1: There's been stories that with Seth partnow pointed this out,

1232
00:59:36,039 --> 00:59:37,559
they had to lock him out of the gym at

1233
00:59:37,559 --> 00:59:40,280
one point to force him to take rest. How do

1234
00:59:40,320 --> 00:59:45,239
you not settle this type of scenario like before the

1235
00:59:45,239 --> 00:59:48,480
trade deadline, Well, you're just weighing your future entirely, And

1236
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,280
I honestly think, yeah, they're looking out for their own interest,

1237
00:59:52,400 --> 00:59:56,000
preserving Honest as a trade asset, and also like making

1238
00:59:56,000 --> 00:59:57,960
the record worse or the less favorable of the picks

1239
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:00,360
they get this year might be better. I look at

1240
01:00:00,360 --> 01:00:03,599
it from the perpeps of you're going nowhere, and I

1241
01:00:03,639 --> 01:00:05,239
don't want to see Yannis get any more injured that

1242
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:06,159
he's actually injured.

1243
01:00:06,199 --> 01:00:08,199
Speaker 3: That's he's actually injured.

1244
01:00:09,920 --> 01:00:12,360
Speaker 2: I think, you know, there's you're gonna portion the blame

1245
01:00:12,760 --> 01:00:16,440
to more than one party. But this, this, it reflects

1246
01:00:16,480 --> 01:00:19,599
the worse on your honest to me, because it's so stupid,

1247
01:00:19,719 --> 01:00:24,000
it's so this it feels I'm being cynical, like maybe

1248
01:00:24,000 --> 01:00:26,039
it is the case that he's just so hardwired that

1249
01:00:26,119 --> 01:00:28,079
like it doesn't it could be the last game of

1250
01:00:28,119 --> 01:00:30,280
the season and the Bucks could have twelve wins, and

1251
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:33,719
he would like, I'm playing because I'm healthy. Like that's

1252
01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:36,480
what he's saying. Taken too the extreme, I just think

1253
01:00:36,519 --> 01:00:38,840
it's ridiculous. It doesn't serve anybody's interest for him to

1254
01:00:38,840 --> 01:00:42,960
play other than his own. Again, cynical take desire to

1255
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:45,360
be perceived as someone that like if I've if I'm

1256
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:48,199
still breathing, I'm gonna compete like that. Like that feels

1257
01:00:48,239 --> 01:00:51,079
like what he's trying to project, and maybe he really

1258
01:00:51,159 --> 01:00:53,920
does feel that way, but someone needs if he can't

1259
01:00:53,920 --> 01:00:56,360
do it, someone needs to tell him, like that's dumb.

1260
01:00:56,519 --> 01:00:58,840
There's no upside to you playing. It's not like you're

1261
01:00:58,880 --> 01:01:00,760
gonna go have a good game and suddenly the trade

1262
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,199
market is more interested in you. It's just it's like

1263
01:01:03,239 --> 01:01:05,639
you're there's nothing that good that can come of it.

1264
01:01:05,679 --> 01:01:09,239
And sorry, Finally, I just think like I don't know,

1265
01:01:09,360 --> 01:01:10,760
go go ahead, go ahead. I I don't know.

1266
01:01:10,880 --> 01:01:12,280
Speaker 3: I was just gonna can I give.

1267
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:14,239
Speaker 1: I don't know if this would be the romantics take

1268
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:17,360
on it, but could he just not want his time

1269
01:01:17,400 --> 01:01:20,320
in Milwaukee to go out with him having already played

1270
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,760
his last game for the Bucks. That may be the

1271
01:01:22,800 --> 01:01:26,360
sentimental value of it all because if you just between

1272
01:01:26,400 --> 01:01:28,760
what was a Wes Eden saying that and the ramoter

1273
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:32,400
Shelbourne piece, the fact that he has informed the multiple

1274
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,920
occasions he thinks it's time to move on, the whole

1275
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:38,880
thing is ridiculous. At the same time, he clearly means

1276
01:01:38,920 --> 01:01:41,039
a lot to that city. The city clearly means a

1277
01:01:41,039 --> 01:01:44,039
lot to him, Like if he's played his last game

1278
01:01:44,039 --> 01:01:45,880
for the Bucks, that's kind of a bummer. It is

1279
01:01:46,000 --> 01:01:48,639
in the best long term interest of him and the franchise.

1280
01:01:48,679 --> 01:01:51,280
But if that's where he's coming from, he knows that

1281
01:01:51,559 --> 01:01:54,639
his swan song is being played and now it's already over.

1282
01:01:55,079 --> 01:01:57,159
I could understand. I do tend to because I am

1283
01:01:57,239 --> 01:02:00,199
inherently cynical. I think a lot of it is what

1284
01:02:00,239 --> 01:02:03,480
you're saying as well. I just can't believe there's still

1285
01:02:03,760 --> 01:02:07,079
this disconnect. Shouldn't exist in two ways. It should have

1286
01:02:07,079 --> 01:02:11,360
been tackled like leading into the trade deadline mapping up, Hey,

1287
01:02:11,400 --> 01:02:13,920
if you're injured, right and also if you claim you

1288
01:02:13,960 --> 01:02:17,199
want to stay here, us doing this it might increase

1289
01:02:17,239 --> 01:02:19,239
the value of a draft pick for us to trade

1290
01:02:19,239 --> 01:02:23,360
and get you help. That would make you want to stay. Yeah, Yeah,

1291
01:02:23,440 --> 01:02:25,159
that's really where it ends, and so.

1292
01:02:26,679 --> 01:02:27,199
Speaker 3: Oh, go ahead.

1293
01:02:27,639 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 2: The the other thing is is, why do we know

1294
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:34,440
about this? Why why are we talking about this? Who

1295
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:37,960
the this? It's probably coming from Gianni's camp, right like,

1296
01:02:38,119 --> 01:02:40,760
because it doesn't serve the Bucks to be releasing the

1297
01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:44,440
fact the idea that like, well, okay, either way, I'm

1298
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:46,480
asking retort. I'm again, I'm just wanting to pin all

1299
01:02:46,519 --> 01:02:48,039
this on you, honest because I'm annoyed by how he's

1300
01:02:48,039 --> 01:02:50,599
handling this. But we shouldn't know about this. This should

1301
01:02:50,599 --> 01:02:53,360
be an internal discussion. There's no reason for this to

1302
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,719
be out there. And that just speaks to some of

1303
01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,599
the stuff in Ramona's art, like I know, or Ramona

1304
01:02:58,639 --> 01:03:02,320
Shelburne's piece on Bucks about how like it's kind of

1305
01:03:02,320 --> 01:03:04,639
hard to figure out who's making decisions and that's only

1306
01:03:04,679 --> 01:03:08,840
making a very fraud situation more fraud. So this being

1307
01:03:09,400 --> 01:03:11,920
discussed publicly when there's really no reason for it too,

1308
01:03:12,639 --> 01:03:15,079
is just another symptom of if I'm honest, I'm like,

1309
01:03:15,159 --> 01:03:16,000
what am I doing here?

1310
01:03:16,039 --> 01:03:16,199
Speaker 1: Why?

1311
01:03:16,480 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 2: Like it just it's not a functional or situation right now.

1312
01:03:21,599 --> 01:03:24,519
Speaker 1: I think it serves the Bucks better if if it

1313
01:03:24,719 --> 01:03:27,320
was a side that thought this would make them look better.

1314
01:03:28,239 --> 01:03:30,559
I believe it would be the like gianness is incentive.

1315
01:03:31,039 --> 01:03:35,079
If it's coming from him, I don't we there.

1316
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:37,760
Speaker 2: Gianness looks irrational. It makes him seem irrational, and it

1317
01:03:37,800 --> 01:03:40,679
makes the Bucks seem rational. So I guess, yeah, if

1318
01:03:40,719 --> 01:03:43,000
it is coming from you, honest, then he's even more

1319
01:03:43,039 --> 01:03:45,199
out of touch with like what the right play.

1320
01:03:45,239 --> 01:03:48,519
Speaker 1: Here's probably time for new representation. If they are apparently

1321
01:03:48,599 --> 01:03:50,840
asking the Bucks for a trade that you didn't know about,

1322
01:03:51,400 --> 01:03:55,039
and they're also.

1323
01:03:53,559 --> 01:03:55,639
Speaker 2: Maybe that's a whole other layer. I don't know. It's

1324
01:03:55,719 --> 01:03:59,239
just it's, uh, we shouldn't. We shouldn't. This isn't a

1325
01:03:59,239 --> 01:04:01,440
conversation we should be having. We should not know any

1326
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:02,280
of this, and we do.

1327
01:04:04,280 --> 01:04:06,360
Speaker 1: Let's talk about tanking again. We haven't talked about it

1328
01:04:06,400 --> 01:04:08,400
on this podcast. I think in a grand total of

1329
01:04:08,599 --> 01:04:10,320
we might have made it like fourteen days if there

1330
01:04:10,360 --> 01:04:10,960
was a little chart.

1331
01:04:11,000 --> 01:04:13,039
Speaker 3: It's been fourteen days since we talked about tanking.

1332
01:04:13,519 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: There are three proposals on the table to deter tanking

1333
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:23,199
moving forward. None of them were our idea, which I

1334
01:04:23,199 --> 01:04:26,039
think is the most egregious thing because the perfect idea.

1335
01:04:26,159 --> 01:04:27,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, biggest mistake.

1336
01:04:27,079 --> 01:04:32,920
Speaker 1: But none of them incentivize actually winning, they disincentivize losing,

1337
01:04:33,239 --> 01:04:36,199
is how I would categorize it. So you want to

1338
01:04:36,239 --> 01:04:38,000
work one by one, I'll read us through the first

1339
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:39,800
one and just see where where we're at with them.

1340
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:44,639
This is all from ESPN shamp Serania. In the first proposal,

1341
01:04:45,079 --> 01:04:49,039
sources told Toronto eighteen teams, the bottom ten that missed

1342
01:04:49,039 --> 01:04:51,599
the play in tournament and the eight that qualify it

1343
01:04:51,960 --> 01:04:54,880
will all be part of the draft lottery. The bottom

1344
01:04:54,880 --> 01:04:57,639
ten teams will have an equal eight percent chance of

1345
01:04:57,679 --> 01:05:00,519
moving up in the lottery, with the remaining ye twenty

1346
01:05:00,519 --> 01:05:03,639
percent of the odds being split among the eight playing

1347
01:05:03,679 --> 01:05:08,599
teams in descending order from eleventh through eighteenth, all eighteenth,

1348
01:05:09,039 --> 01:05:12,679
all eighteen spots would then be drawn as part of

1349
01:05:12,679 --> 01:05:15,440
the lottery in that format. This is the closest it

1350
01:05:15,480 --> 01:05:17,920
gets to your idea of just put all eight teams

1351
01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:20,119
in the lottery or whatever you add in pten it.

1352
01:05:20,320 --> 01:05:22,159
Speaker 2: Right, Which is why I kind of I like some

1353
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,519
aspects of it. I like the worst ten teams have

1354
01:05:25,559 --> 01:05:27,840
eight percent have an eight percent chance of moving up,

1355
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:31,079
so you have so again, all of these are some

1356
01:05:31,239 --> 01:05:34,280
version of just moving the sort of inflection point of

1357
01:05:34,320 --> 01:05:37,400
where tanking makes sense, and so Now if you're the

1358
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:41,559
nintheenth or whatever. If you're if you're just outside that

1359
01:05:41,639 --> 01:05:45,320
bottom ten, maybe you that's when you start to tank

1360
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:48,320
because you want to get that eight percent shot at it.

1361
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:50,840
But like if you're at that level, so yeah, that

1362
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:52,559
would be bad. If if you have a team that

1363
01:05:52,599 --> 01:05:54,199
I don't know where that team would be, it's it's

1364
01:05:54,199 --> 01:05:56,239
a playing team or close to it where there's like, no,

1365
01:05:56,480 --> 01:05:58,800
screw it, we're gonna we want that eight percent.

1366
01:05:59,559 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: Yep.

1367
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:04,239
Speaker 2: I think I think that's fairly unlikely to happen. Uh,

1368
01:06:04,360 --> 01:06:08,039
it'll still probably happen, but I don't know. Again, all

1369
01:06:08,079 --> 01:06:11,920
of these are by definition half measures or they're it's

1370
01:06:12,000 --> 01:06:14,039
what it does show is a pretty clear unwillingness to

1371
01:06:14,079 --> 01:06:15,960
incentivize winning because there are a lot of ways to

1372
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,360
do that, and they just based on these three proposals,

1373
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:20,239
that's just not the route that's going to be taken.

1374
01:06:20,960 --> 01:06:24,480
So if if short of that, which is the way

1375
01:06:24,519 --> 01:06:26,119
to go, I think we all agree you just have

1376
01:06:26,199 --> 01:06:29,320
to find a way to make winning the goal. This

1377
01:06:29,400 --> 01:06:33,199
makes losing less helpful. So that's okay. Uh, It's it's

1378
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:36,239
not a it's not going to solve everything, but I

1379
01:06:36,239 --> 01:06:38,519
I kind of like this. I think it's a good start.

1380
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,840
Speaker 1: I I think if you like it, is it because

1381
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:44,920
of the chaos of what will unfold in the lottery?

1382
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:47,639
Because I don't know how much this changes team? But

1383
01:06:47,679 --> 01:06:50,719
what about go single out any one of these teams

1384
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:51,719
right now that are terrible?

1385
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:53,239
Speaker 3: What behavior patterns?

1386
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, of these rules?

1387
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:55,559
Speaker 3: Would it have changed?

1388
01:06:55,719 --> 01:06:58,239
Speaker 2: Let's take Washington, I guess just to pick one, right,

1389
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:02,239
so they instead of what is it if you're the

1390
01:07:02,239 --> 01:07:04,719
bottom for it's like a fourteen percent chance at number

1391
01:07:04,719 --> 01:07:07,800
one or something something like that, right, and so whereas

1392
01:07:07,800 --> 01:07:10,679
here it's eight percent? Is that it's not you have

1393
01:07:10,719 --> 01:07:12,440
an eight percent chance of picking number one if you're

1394
01:07:12,480 --> 01:07:14,719
in the bottom ten based on this proposal? Is that

1395
01:07:14,760 --> 01:07:18,119
how you're reading it? So does Washington do anything differently

1396
01:07:18,639 --> 01:07:21,400
if the best it can do is eight percent versus fourteen?

1397
01:07:23,119 --> 01:07:23,519
Maybe not?

1398
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 1: I mean I mean you might maybe not because maybe

1399
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:30,239
not what I think people would point to to stick

1400
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:32,800
with the Wizards as an example, Well, would Ad and

1401
01:07:32,840 --> 01:07:34,880
Trey Young be playing right now?

1402
01:07:34,920 --> 01:07:36,239
Speaker 3: They probably still make those trades?

1403
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,280
Speaker 1: The answer is no, because you're not They're not doing

1404
01:07:39,280 --> 01:07:41,239
You're still just gonna get eight percent whether you play

1405
01:07:41,239 --> 01:07:42,880
them or not. Do you know what I mean, And

1406
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:45,119
so you're gonna look at it in the same through

1407
01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:46,639
the same lens and say, well, we don't want to

1408
01:07:46,719 --> 01:07:49,800
risk further injury to Trey Young, which apparently he suffered

1409
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,320
further injury, and we're not gonna risk like injury to

1410
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:55,360
a d when we're trying to be good next year.

1411
01:07:55,599 --> 01:07:58,239
So even if the thought process was like do you

1412
01:07:58,280 --> 01:07:59,880
think that or now if you want to use it

1413
01:08:00,039 --> 01:08:02,320
for example, because the Wizards were just they were the

1414
01:08:02,400 --> 01:08:05,880
type of team that wasn't so much tanking as they

1415
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:08,320
were tanking, but like they were gonna be organically bad.

1416
01:08:08,519 --> 01:08:11,599
Right played CJ McCollum, you played Chris Middleton. How how

1417
01:08:11,679 --> 01:08:13,719
much better were they actually supposed to be? You wanted

1418
01:08:13,719 --> 01:08:16,279
them to go out there and trade for Anthony Davis

1419
01:08:16,279 --> 01:08:19,039
over the summer, But is that what you're hoping would

1420
01:08:19,039 --> 01:08:20,920
incentivize take another team?

1421
01:08:21,359 --> 01:08:21,600
Speaker 3: Then?

1422
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:24,239
Speaker 1: Like, what is the team I guess this year that

1423
01:08:24,640 --> 01:08:27,920
we think pivoted into a mid season tank?

1424
01:08:28,119 --> 01:08:29,039
Speaker 3: Like, I don't.

1425
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:31,640
Speaker 4: Know, Dallas is kind of that team I guess, or

1426
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:35,600
I mean Indiana was Indiana got hurt right away, so

1427
01:08:35,640 --> 01:08:38,359
they didn't really have the opportunity to see how good

1428
01:08:38,399 --> 01:08:40,079
they were before the tank started.

1429
01:08:41,159 --> 01:08:43,039
Speaker 2: I take your point. I do. I guess, yeah, if

1430
01:08:43,039 --> 01:08:46,600
you're if you're focused on how is this gonna change behavior?

1431
01:08:48,520 --> 01:08:50,680
I guess the best thing you could say for it

1432
01:08:50,760 --> 01:08:54,800
is it'll change the behavior of teams that are not

1433
01:08:55,560 --> 01:09:01,800
just gonna be at the bottom no matter what, because well, yeah,

1434
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:02,159
I don't know.

1435
01:09:02,279 --> 01:09:06,520
Speaker 3: Actually like my hot my hot take would be.

1436
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:08,880
Speaker 1: And then I think there's a chance that this increases

1437
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:13,640
tanking because you don't have as much middle of the

1438
01:09:13,720 --> 01:09:16,680
pack pivoting out. And so if the standings are close

1439
01:09:17,159 --> 01:09:20,159
in a season, what the Remember what the Mavericks did

1440
01:09:20,319 --> 01:09:22,279
when they pivoted out of a play in That was

1441
01:09:22,319 --> 01:09:24,600
different because it was such a specific window of a pick.

1442
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:27,119
If now of a sudden, it's the difference between you know,

1443
01:09:27,119 --> 01:09:28,880
they were gonna have a less than one percent chance

1444
01:09:28,960 --> 01:09:31,880
then their more pick versus eight percent. Yeah, you're you're

1445
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:34,880
gonna be more likely to see that. I'm not guaranteeing it,

1446
01:09:34,920 --> 01:09:37,239
but I think that would be an unintended consequence that

1447
01:09:37,800 --> 01:09:41,600
there's maybe not as much egregious tanking at the bottom.

1448
01:09:41,640 --> 01:09:44,159
But you're those teams aren't incentivized to actually be a

1449
01:09:44,199 --> 01:09:44,720
lot better.

1450
01:09:45,199 --> 01:09:46,439
Speaker 3: And two, now.

1451
01:09:46,279 --> 01:09:48,960
Speaker 1: You've bumped up water team's in the bottom of the

1452
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,159
middle now going to look at like you if the

1453
01:09:52,199 --> 01:09:55,239
Warriors were healthy, like, would they have looked at like,

1454
01:09:55,359 --> 01:09:57,239
is it really worth us to go for to be

1455
01:09:57,319 --> 01:09:59,239
in the play in tournament here?

1456
01:09:59,279 --> 01:10:00,159
Speaker 3: Like do we pivot out?

1457
01:10:00,800 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know, I think you're right. I think there

1458
01:10:02,479 --> 01:10:06,680
are some real like potentially even worse consequences here, or

1459
01:10:06,680 --> 01:10:10,720
at least you might incentivize tanking at in a section

1460
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:15,359
of the standings that is more problematic than you've got

1461
01:10:15,399 --> 01:10:18,960
right now, right because if so, like exactly so, if

1462
01:10:19,000 --> 01:10:21,720
you can have an eight percent chance at moving up

1463
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:25,239
in the lottery and you are let's say you're you've

1464
01:10:25,239 --> 01:10:27,159
got to be in the bottom ten. So I do

1465
01:10:27,319 --> 01:10:30,600
like that kind of the rest of the play in

1466
01:10:30,720 --> 01:10:33,960
teams are lumped in here. But yeah, I think you're right,

1467
01:10:34,000 --> 01:10:37,359
there are some negative let's you know what imperfect imperfect

1468
01:10:37,359 --> 01:10:40,039
solution is where I would land. I still, you know,

1469
01:10:40,079 --> 01:10:42,119
at least they're trying. What's the sec I want to take?

1470
01:10:43,039 --> 01:10:46,800
Speaker 1: So the second one is, sources told Toronti had twenty

1471
01:10:46,800 --> 01:10:50,000
two teams the bottom ten teams that missed the play

1472
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:52,279
in tournament, they eight that qualify for it. And the

1473
01:10:52,279 --> 01:10:55,239
four playoff teams that lose in the first round will

1474
01:10:55,279 --> 01:10:57,880
all be included in the lottery and will be ranked

1475
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:01,479
according to their record across two seasons. The last part

1476
01:11:01,840 --> 01:11:04,159
waiting teams by their record across the prior to seasons

1477
01:11:04,159 --> 01:11:04,720
is how the.

1478
01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:06,319
Speaker 3: WNBA waits its lottery system.

1479
01:11:06,840 --> 01:11:08,720
Speaker 1: Under that system, each team would need to reach a

1480
01:11:08,760 --> 01:11:12,479
minimum win total floor in each season to mitigate the

1481
01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:15,840
need to lose every game possible. For example, if the

1482
01:11:15,880 --> 01:11:19,600
minimum floor for individual season was twenty wins, a team

1483
01:11:19,600 --> 01:11:22,159
that went fourteen and sixty eight would be twenty and

1484
01:11:22,239 --> 01:11:25,279
sixty two for lottery purposes, and if a team wins

1485
01:11:25,319 --> 01:11:28,119
forty games one season and twenty games the next season,

1486
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:31,239
it would go in as thirty wins for the lottery.

1487
01:11:31,479 --> 01:11:33,560
Sure in this system, the top four spots would be

1488
01:11:33,600 --> 01:11:35,800
drawn as part of the lottery, as is currently done.

1489
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:38,279
Speaker 3: Do you think that's a lot of that.

1490
01:11:38,680 --> 01:11:41,600
Speaker 2: Let's take it one at a time. So, because this

1491
01:11:41,640 --> 01:11:46,439
has quite a few more prongs. So the first aspect

1492
01:11:46,520 --> 01:11:53,119
of it is you're expanding even moreless than proposition number

1493
01:11:53,119 --> 01:11:56,760
one in that now first round outs are in the lottery,

1494
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:02,079
but the lottery one is weighted over two seasons. Or

1495
01:12:02,159 --> 01:12:04,680
your win totals are weighted over two seasons. And then

1496
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:09,399
also it's not the same as the first proposal, where

1497
01:12:09,920 --> 01:12:12,279
a certain number of teams all have that same eight

1498
01:12:12,319 --> 01:12:16,119
percent chance. Right, so it's the bottom four still get

1499
01:12:16,159 --> 01:12:18,880
an outsized shot at moving up. Did I imagine that?

1500
01:12:19,000 --> 01:12:20,319
Or I think that's part.

1501
01:12:20,159 --> 01:12:22,319
Speaker 1: Of it RCT, but your your capped it Also, I

1502
01:12:22,359 --> 01:12:25,600
guess there could be a tie because in theory, let's

1503
01:12:25,600 --> 01:12:28,359
just say you're terrible during the two year window, you're

1504
01:12:28,479 --> 01:12:30,520
just going to be counted as forty wins, twenty and

1505
01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:31,720
sixty two for each season.

1506
01:12:32,159 --> 01:12:37,439
Speaker 2: Right, So let's take what do you think about including

1507
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:41,239
teams let's just forget everything else, including teams that get

1508
01:12:41,279 --> 01:12:43,680
eliminated in the first round, in addition to play in

1509
01:12:43,680 --> 01:12:45,880
in addition to what we would used to refer to

1510
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:49,079
as lottery teams. What do you think that the impact

1511
01:12:49,119 --> 01:12:54,479
of that is, So you're adding four more eight more teams,

1512
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,560
you might Yeah, you might be adding a team that

1513
01:12:58,079 --> 01:13:01,079
has the number two seed in its conf and loses

1514
01:13:01,079 --> 01:13:03,920
to a seven. That team is in the lottery. Now

1515
01:13:04,439 --> 01:13:07,119
assuming it's I guess that's not true because it would

1516
01:13:07,159 --> 01:13:10,640
have to have Uh, you're weighing this year and.

1517
01:13:10,720 --> 01:13:14,439
Speaker 1: Last year, right, well, they would be insert Yeah, so

1518
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:16,079
they would, they would be inserted into that.

1519
01:13:16,399 --> 01:13:20,239
Speaker 2: This one's already too complicated. It's already there's too many

1520
01:13:20,239 --> 01:13:20,880
things happening.

1521
01:13:21,720 --> 01:13:23,640
Speaker 1: Well the other thing too is but yeah, you're right.

1522
01:13:23,640 --> 01:13:26,199
So let's say like there was an upset and so

1523
01:13:26,319 --> 01:13:28,079
there's the two seed loses.

1524
01:13:28,119 --> 01:13:29,399
Speaker 3: So there all of a sudden they're in the lottery.

1525
01:13:29,399 --> 01:13:31,399
Speaker 1: But last year's when I don't know, I would be

1526
01:13:31,439 --> 01:13:33,359
curious to know what does the odds actually become. At

1527
01:13:33,399 --> 01:13:35,880
least it's it's sort of a consolation prize if you

1528
01:13:35,920 --> 01:13:38,479
do get upset in the playoffs. I do think when

1529
01:13:38,520 --> 01:13:42,159
you're looking at it, if we're expecting chalk, it does

1530
01:13:42,159 --> 01:13:44,479
eliminate what we were talking about the previous proposal of

1531
01:13:44,840 --> 01:13:46,399
teams that are in the bottom of the middle or

1532
01:13:46,439 --> 01:13:48,800
fringe play in fringe playoffs aren't gonna pivot it out

1533
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,000
to try and get that eight percent chance, because there's

1534
01:13:51,000 --> 01:13:53,399
a chance they're thrown into the lottery fold regardless, and

1535
01:13:53,479 --> 01:13:56,239
one that eight percent chance also just doesn't exist now

1536
01:13:56,399 --> 01:14:00,239
to drop out of that, right, the part that I

1537
01:14:00,319 --> 01:14:02,279
don't first of all, I don't really know like how

1538
01:14:02,439 --> 01:14:05,399
like really what that does. Aside from to me and

1539
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:08,479
maybe I'm just misreading it, it seems to engender chaos more

1540
01:14:08,479 --> 01:14:12,640
than it does penalize losing necessarily. If anything, it encourages

1541
01:14:13,479 --> 01:14:17,119
multi year awfulness. Now, if there's a team that's terrible,

1542
01:14:17,439 --> 01:14:21,520
are you ever gonna just be isolated bad in one year?

1543
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:23,239
Speaker 3: Windows Probably not?

1544
01:14:23,760 --> 01:14:26,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, right, because it might not, am I to

1545
01:14:26,279 --> 01:14:29,439
help you that much? It does, You're right, because I'm

1546
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:31,359
trying to think of a good example of you know,

1547
01:14:31,399 --> 01:14:35,000
a lot of the time we're we're looking at up

1548
01:14:35,039 --> 01:14:38,880
and coming team this year because right, right, But that's

1549
01:14:38,880 --> 01:14:43,199
an example. The other another concern is we look at

1550
01:14:43,359 --> 01:14:45,319
up and coming teams you know you and saying you

1551
01:14:45,359 --> 01:14:49,000
and I and the sort of NBA media collectively, it's like,

1552
01:14:49,000 --> 01:14:51,319
when are they gonna make the move, right, like the

1553
01:14:51,520 --> 01:14:54,359
the pull the trigger move to go get someone to

1554
01:14:54,479 --> 01:14:56,960
fast track. Now, it's like, if you had a terrible

1555
01:14:57,039 --> 01:14:58,960
year last year and you're in the position to make

1556
01:14:59,000 --> 01:15:01,239
that move to get you you're you know, it's not

1557
01:15:01,239 --> 01:15:02,800
gonna make you a contender, but it's going to move

1558
01:15:02,840 --> 01:15:05,159
you from a play in team to like a like

1559
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:07,680
just the magic going for Bane or something like that.

1560
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,039
As an example, that's not not quite a perfect situation,

1561
01:15:11,159 --> 01:15:13,800
but you might put that off because you're like, we

1562
01:15:13,840 --> 01:15:16,720
need to be bad for two years to really maximize

1563
01:15:16,720 --> 01:15:19,880
our lottery odds. That so you know, that's not tanking,

1564
01:15:19,920 --> 01:15:22,279
but it's also like not going for it when maybe

1565
01:15:22,319 --> 01:15:25,239
you could, which also runs against this idea that we

1566
01:15:25,279 --> 01:15:28,079
have in the new CBA where if the windows open

1567
01:15:28,079 --> 01:15:30,079
a crack, you better go because you can't keep this

1568
01:15:30,119 --> 01:15:32,600
thing together for very long. So it seems kind of

1569
01:15:34,159 --> 01:15:35,920
it's it doesn't feel like a clean fit with a

1570
01:15:35,960 --> 01:15:37,520
lot of the other realities of the league.

1571
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:43,239
Speaker 1: Now, third and final scenario is a five by five method.

1572
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:47,399
In this one, mister Grant hughes the same eighteen teams

1573
01:15:47,439 --> 01:15:49,560
from the first proposal. The bottom ten that miss the

1574
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:51,359
play in plus the eight that make it would be

1575
01:15:51,479 --> 01:15:54,039
entered into the lottery. The teams with the five worst

1576
01:15:54,119 --> 01:15:57,159
records would then all have the same odds with them

1577
01:15:57,199 --> 01:15:59,840
descending from there, and there would be a lottery drawing

1578
01:15:59,840 --> 01:16:01,760
for each of the top five picks in the draft.

1579
01:16:02,399 --> 01:16:05,279
After those five picks are selected, there would be another

1580
01:16:05,359 --> 01:16:08,840
lottery drawing for the remaining thirteen teams. If any of

1581
01:16:08,880 --> 01:16:12,199
the teams with the five worst records didn't land one

1582
01:16:12,239 --> 01:16:15,960
of those top five spots, like last season, when the

1583
01:16:16,000 --> 01:16:19,359
teams with the first did Utah Jazz, second Wizards, and

1584
01:16:19,439 --> 01:16:23,399
fourth Pelicans worst records all moved back to fifth, sixth,

1585
01:16:23,439 --> 01:16:26,479
and seventh, respectively. The lowest they could wind up in

1586
01:16:26,520 --> 01:16:29,399
the second lottery drawing would be tenth, preventing a bad

1587
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:32,960
team from falling too far down the draft board over

1588
01:16:33,000 --> 01:16:34,840
the I don't.

1589
01:16:36,680 --> 01:16:39,159
Speaker 2: This doesn't feel that different from what we have now,

1590
01:16:39,520 --> 01:16:43,359
and it doesn't seem to address like, how does this

1591
01:16:44,439 --> 01:16:47,600
All you're doing is just wanting to be bottom five, right,

1592
01:16:47,680 --> 01:16:50,720
You're just you've decided you've now moved it from bottom

1593
01:16:50,720 --> 01:16:54,199
four to bottom five, is basically my read on this. Yeah,

1594
01:16:54,239 --> 01:16:59,319
And I don't think like so the idea would be this,

1595
01:16:59,319 --> 01:17:02,239
this doesn't work at all because because the fear, what

1596
01:17:02,279 --> 01:17:05,760
you're doing is limiting how far the worst teams can slide, right,

1597
01:17:06,600 --> 01:17:11,680
which if you're trying to curb tanking, I think it's

1598
01:17:11,880 --> 01:17:14,640
it's scarier now if you're the worst team and you

1599
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:17,520
can you can fall farther, right, So, so like this

1600
01:17:17,600 --> 01:17:21,199
almost incentivizes tanking, unless I could be just completely brain

1601
01:17:21,279 --> 01:17:23,520
addled on this, but I don't like this one very much.

1602
01:17:23,560 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 3: Either, do you it's well, it's go ahead at the moment,

1603
01:17:30,000 --> 01:17:32,239
like you like, I don't. The furthest you could fall

1604
01:17:32,399 --> 01:17:36,840
is what in the lottery right now? If you're so,

1605
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:39,039
I don't. I don't know how this materially changes it.

1606
01:17:39,199 --> 01:17:42,800
Speaker 2: Well, are you guaranteed this is I don't know this one.

1607
01:17:42,960 --> 01:17:46,359
This one seems too similar. This doesn't seem to change enough.

1608
01:17:47,279 --> 01:17:49,600
I like the first proposal, I guess just because one

1609
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:54,319
it's simpler than this than number two, and it's close

1610
01:17:54,359 --> 01:17:56,520
to what I think makes some sense if you're not

1611
01:17:56,640 --> 01:17:59,039
going to truly solve the problem, which is just flatten

1612
01:17:59,119 --> 01:18:01,239
it so that there's less of an incentive to be

1613
01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:04,720
truly horrible. I don't know. These aren't great.

1614
01:18:04,880 --> 01:18:06,000
Speaker 3: I do.

1615
01:18:07,439 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 1: No, so actually, can I push back here? I think

1616
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:12,880
there's a we can play the well, at least they're

1617
01:18:12,920 --> 01:18:16,960
trying card. I just don't there's we talked about the

1618
01:18:17,079 --> 01:18:20,520
NBAPA being performative. These feel like performative solutions.

1619
01:18:20,520 --> 01:18:21,079
Speaker 3: By and large.

1620
01:18:21,119 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: The first one comes closest to whatever. This just feels

1621
01:18:23,920 --> 01:18:27,000
like they're putting lipstick on a pig type deal, because

1622
01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:29,399
if they were really concerned. And by the way, I

1623
01:18:29,439 --> 01:18:33,600
also understand why owners or teams. As a bad team,

1624
01:18:33,640 --> 01:18:35,800
you need the infusion of talent, So I understand not

1625
01:18:35,840 --> 01:18:37,680
wanting to tie it to wins, but if you really

1626
01:18:37,720 --> 01:18:41,560
wanted to deter tanking, there would be some type of

1627
01:18:41,600 --> 01:18:46,279
incentive for winning, not purely just trying to punish teams

1628
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:49,399
for losing too much. And I don't like none of

1629
01:18:49,439 --> 01:18:55,920
these accomplish the former. It feels to me they've talked

1630
01:18:55,960 --> 01:18:57,920
about this for how long now, and this is what

1631
01:18:57,960 --> 01:18:59,920
they came up with, even if they really only focus

1632
01:19:00,039 --> 01:19:03,239
thought at this season. I'm reading these and it's like,

1633
01:19:03,520 --> 01:19:06,920
that's it, that's the these are the big solves.

1634
01:19:07,359 --> 01:19:11,359
Speaker 2: They're they're half measures, and they're they're sort of in

1635
01:19:11,399 --> 01:19:14,359
a class of measures that aren't even the best class

1636
01:19:14,359 --> 01:19:17,720
of measures for addressing the problem, which is incentivizing if

1637
01:19:17,960 --> 01:19:20,840
you're like we've said, this has been the drum beat forever,

1638
01:19:21,000 --> 01:19:23,439
not just us, but like the problem is, you are

1639
01:19:23,479 --> 01:19:26,800
not incentivized to win every game, and until that changes

1640
01:19:27,720 --> 01:19:30,119
you you the best you can do is stuff like

1641
01:19:30,159 --> 01:19:33,600
we're talking about is just you know, you move the

1642
01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:36,399
section of the standings where tanking makes sense. You make

1643
01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:41,119
tanking slightly less statistically beneficial, but it doesn't change the

1644
01:19:41,199 --> 01:19:44,920
fundamental makeup of the system. It doesn't she is. So

1645
01:19:45,319 --> 01:19:47,399
you might tweak team behavior, you're not going to change

1646
01:19:47,439 --> 01:19:50,479
the overarching incentives, which say you should lose if if

1647
01:19:50,680 --> 01:19:53,079
you can't win, you should lose. And and until we

1648
01:19:54,039 --> 01:19:59,000
address the core issue of winning, isn't the best thing

1649
01:19:59,079 --> 01:20:01,960
for a lot of teams, Like you're never gonna do

1650
01:20:02,039 --> 01:20:04,279
better than like a C minus on any of these things.

1651
01:20:04,279 --> 01:20:04,840
I don't think.

1652
01:20:05,279 --> 01:20:08,239
Speaker 1: My other question would be I've never sat there and

1653
01:20:08,359 --> 01:20:11,199
ranked what I think are the NBA's biggest problems. But

1654
01:20:11,279 --> 01:20:14,239
anecdotally speaking, I don't hear a lot of people like

1655
01:20:14,279 --> 01:20:16,479
I don't watch the NBA because these teams are so

1656
01:20:16,640 --> 01:20:20,520
bad and they're tanking. That's never been interesting, though not never,

1657
01:20:20,640 --> 01:20:22,520
But that's not something I hear a lot. It's more

1658
01:20:22,560 --> 01:20:26,359
so focused on teams shoot too many threes, stars don't play.

1659
01:20:26,840 --> 01:20:29,479
Every team plays the same way, and those all have

1660
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:34,359
varying degrees and levels of truth slash false falsities to them.

1661
01:20:35,000 --> 01:20:39,319
I do wonder is there an over emphasis on over

1662
01:20:39,359 --> 01:20:42,159
emphasis on trying to fix tanking or do you think

1663
01:20:42,199 --> 01:20:45,279
that it's a huge because if to me you mentioned it,

1664
01:20:45,279 --> 01:20:47,560
it's half measures so to me, you need to decide

1665
01:20:47,960 --> 01:20:50,319
is this a wholesale issue, and if it is.

1666
01:20:50,800 --> 01:20:51,640
Speaker 3: Go whole hog.

1667
01:20:51,920 --> 01:20:54,319
Speaker 1: Apparently I'm just gonna stick with the pig analogies here,

1668
01:20:54,600 --> 01:20:58,199
go whole hog and like actually incentivize winning and if

1669
01:20:58,239 --> 01:20:59,840
you don't, if you think it just needs a tweak,

1670
01:21:00,079 --> 01:21:01,840
are the we're gonna do bottom five?

1671
01:21:02,399 --> 01:21:04,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, they we're really good, right right then?

1672
01:21:04,920 --> 01:21:07,520
Speaker 1: Okay, sure, but like don't and then they didn't even

1673
01:21:07,640 --> 01:21:10,720
like change the pick protections. Maybe that'll be a different

1674
01:21:10,760 --> 01:21:12,760
discussion that they thought would have helped.

1675
01:21:13,119 --> 01:21:14,399
Speaker 3: So I don't know.

1676
01:21:14,600 --> 01:21:17,399
Speaker 1: I'm just curious as to they probably have other issues

1677
01:21:17,399 --> 01:21:21,359
to solve, which is it doesn't seem like I mean,

1678
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:24,319
the issues would be like the schedule is probably too long,

1679
01:21:24,359 --> 01:21:27,079
that's never gonna change. But I don't know that addressing

1680
01:21:27,119 --> 01:21:29,159
tanking is a way of well, the longer schedule be

1681
01:21:29,159 --> 01:21:33,439
made more compelling. I'm just curious one whether that's possible,

1682
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:35,880
and two whether any of these proposals that we just

1683
01:21:35,920 --> 01:21:38,760
went through do that even on a minor scale.

1684
01:21:39,039 --> 01:21:41,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I think that's fair. I think I think

1685
01:21:41,439 --> 01:21:44,640
to me, I get there's you know, the discourse is

1686
01:21:44,680 --> 01:21:46,720
what it is, and it's hard to again like we

1687
01:21:46,760 --> 01:21:48,760
talk about all the time offline. It's like it's hard

1688
01:21:48,800 --> 01:21:51,479
to know what's real because depending on the silo you're in,

1689
01:21:51,920 --> 01:21:54,039
something could seem some issue could seem like a ten

1690
01:21:54,079 --> 01:21:56,720
out of ten, and your next door neighbor is like

1691
01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:59,199
unaware the issue exists. We just we don't have a

1692
01:21:59,239 --> 01:22:02,840
good sense of the scale of problems. I don't think personally,

1693
01:22:03,800 --> 01:22:09,439
other than the length of the season, tanking is to

1694
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:12,760
me the biggest issue, like just for my my personal

1695
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,319
consumption of the NBA. What what I think an issue

1696
01:22:17,239 --> 01:22:20,640
as a as an avid sports gambler. I know, I

1697
01:22:20,720 --> 01:22:24,760
just think to me, it matters more than the perception

1698
01:22:24,880 --> 01:22:29,039
of like free throw discrepancy or like stylistic homogeneity or

1699
01:22:29,039 --> 01:22:31,760
whatever other things things have come up. I think tanking

1700
01:22:31,840 --> 01:22:34,439
is gambling. I think tanking is a bigger issue than gambling.

1701
01:22:34,479 --> 01:22:36,960
I just I think it's a pretty it's a It's

1702
01:22:37,000 --> 01:22:39,319
as core of an issue to the quality of the

1703
01:22:39,359 --> 01:22:42,760
game as you can get excluding length of season.

1704
01:22:43,479 --> 01:22:47,279
Speaker 1: So I can I ask you a question, though, do

1705
01:22:47,279 --> 01:22:49,119
you think it's because of the length of the season

1706
01:22:49,199 --> 01:22:52,159
that you viewed tanking is so egregious?

1707
01:22:52,479 --> 01:22:54,319
Speaker 2: They're related? I think, I know, I do. I think

1708
01:22:54,319 --> 01:22:56,840
they're related. I think almost almost all of the issues

1709
01:22:56,880 --> 01:22:58,560
that you might talk about are related to the length

1710
01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:02,640
of the season in some way. So yeah, so I

1711
01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:04,319
do think it's a big deal. I like that they're

1712
01:23:04,359 --> 01:23:10,119
doing something. This is These aren't like abominable solutions. They

1713
01:23:10,199 --> 01:23:13,560
do feel like you might you said performative. There might.

1714
01:23:13,640 --> 01:23:16,239
They're certainly a performative aspect because the league is like,

1715
01:23:16,279 --> 01:23:20,000
everybody's pissed about this, we must do something. But it's

1716
01:23:20,000 --> 01:23:22,640
better than nothing. It's certainly not as good as the

1717
01:23:22,680 --> 01:23:24,520
solution could be if you were really going to actually

1718
01:23:24,520 --> 01:23:28,000
address the core problem. Can I ask you something unless

1719
01:23:28,000 --> 01:23:31,039
you want to add to that the proposal, it's not

1720
01:23:31,079 --> 01:23:33,319
a proposal, just someone was kicking the idea around of

1721
01:23:33,800 --> 01:23:36,239
what if the games were forty minutes long instead of

1722
01:23:36,279 --> 01:23:38,479
forty eight, and you could keep eighty two, but they're

1723
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:42,359
forty minutes, Like how long? How far would that go

1724
01:23:42,439 --> 01:23:46,079
towards solving a lot of the season's too long issues.

1725
01:23:46,640 --> 01:23:48,920
Speaker 1: Now, you might run into the same problem if you

1726
01:23:49,039 --> 01:23:51,600
did noticeably short in the schedule. But I wonder how

1727
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:54,000
long it would take for data to show that if

1728
01:23:54,039 --> 01:23:57,159
a player is playing twenty six minutes instead of thirty

1729
01:23:57,159 --> 01:23:59,800
four when you shorten the game by eight, that they're

1730
01:23:59,840 --> 01:24:02,119
just going to be better healthier. I just think that

1731
01:24:02,159 --> 01:24:06,680
would move towards that discussion. And I almost wonder for

1732
01:24:06,720 --> 01:24:09,840
the sake of records if you're gonna make that dramatic

1733
01:24:09,880 --> 01:24:11,560
of a change, like when looking at the league's record,

1734
01:24:11,560 --> 01:24:13,880
which I'd rather just see you shorten the schedule than

1735
01:24:14,199 --> 01:24:15,920
eat into the gameplaytime.

1736
01:24:16,119 --> 01:24:18,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I well, I mean, I ask because I'm

1737
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:22,399
not sure. I do think the argument that I ran

1738
01:24:22,439 --> 01:24:26,039
into or was raised first against the forty minute thing

1739
01:24:26,119 --> 01:24:29,800
is like are going to ruin like historical stat comparisons,

1740
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:32,600
you know, like suddenly like no one's gonna average thirty

1741
01:24:32,640 --> 01:24:35,800
points a game, all all the per game numbers will

1742
01:24:35,800 --> 01:24:40,159
be down, which which yeah, but like it seems pretty

1743
01:24:40,199 --> 01:24:44,680
short sighted for a sport that's eighty years old to care,

1744
01:24:44,760 --> 01:24:48,640
like baseball's one hundred and whatever, one hundred and forty

1745
01:24:48,720 --> 01:24:52,960
years old. One hundred years ago, like it was unrecognizable.

1746
01:24:53,079 --> 01:24:56,479
The sport was unrecognized, Like pitchers would throw forty complete

1747
01:24:56,479 --> 01:24:59,199
games a year, and they you know, it's just like

1748
01:24:59,560 --> 01:25:01,920
now with the lee leader throws two or whatever it is,

1749
01:25:01,960 --> 01:25:05,560
and it's just like we still say that the strikeout

1750
01:25:05,560 --> 01:25:07,720
and wins records and all this other stuff matters, Like

1751
01:25:07,760 --> 01:25:10,199
no pitcher's ever gonna win three hundred games. Again, it's

1752
01:25:10,359 --> 01:25:13,760
there were plenty that did years ago, like we can

1753
01:25:13,800 --> 01:25:17,279
get past, I can get passed. Look at like the

1754
01:25:17,479 --> 01:25:20,119
Wilts and Oscar Robertson numbers and just all these insane

1755
01:25:20,199 --> 01:25:23,079
numbers from not that long ago. Relatively speaking, we can

1756
01:25:23,119 --> 01:25:24,760
all look at those and say like, well, that was

1757
01:25:25,119 --> 01:25:27,960
what happened in that era, right, we could do we could.

1758
01:25:28,279 --> 01:25:30,880
I'm not persuaded by the stats are gonna be ruined

1759
01:25:31,000 --> 01:25:34,239
argument if we shorten the games or the season. Shortening

1760
01:25:34,319 --> 01:25:37,000
the games just appealed to me because you don't run

1761
01:25:37,039 --> 01:25:41,720
into the well, we're losing gate revenue, we're losing entire

1762
01:25:41,840 --> 01:25:44,880
broadcast games that were being paid for. It's just they're

1763
01:25:44,960 --> 01:25:47,560
just a little shorter. That's okay. I mean the product

1764
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:49,960
would be better too. You could get in and out

1765
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:52,800
in two hours, like I think fans want that. There's

1766
01:25:52,840 --> 01:25:55,520
a lot of I don't know this, I'm taking us

1767
01:25:55,560 --> 01:25:57,560
too far afield, but there's a lot of appeal to

1768
01:25:57,560 --> 01:25:59,560
the forty minute game. If we're never gonna shorten the

1769
01:25:59,560 --> 01:26:00,840
season for eighty two to.

1770
01:26:01,039 --> 01:26:03,319
Speaker 1: That's interesting too, And then in theory you might increase

1771
01:26:03,359 --> 01:26:05,720
the variance because it's would it be the same as

1772
01:26:05,720 --> 01:26:07,760
if you shorten a playoff series to best of five,

1773
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:09,920
it's more likely if there's an upset, So is it?

1774
01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:10,600
Speaker 3: Does it make it?

1775
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:13,199
Speaker 1: If you're extending the game, and theory the team that's

1776
01:26:13,239 --> 01:26:15,279
the better team is going to prevail most of the time,

1777
01:26:15,479 --> 01:26:17,479
you would probably be increasing variants as well.

1778
01:26:17,560 --> 01:26:20,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, like the puncher's chance, it's more appealing to try

1779
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:22,680
to be a puncher if if you know you only

1780
01:26:22,680 --> 01:26:25,479
got to catch them a couple times. I don't know,

1781
01:26:25,960 --> 01:26:26,439
can I ask?

1782
01:26:26,479 --> 01:26:28,600
Speaker 1: Because I'm two in the basketball so I like follow

1783
01:26:28,640 --> 01:26:31,119
basketball now and like my I just don't have the

1784
01:26:31,119 --> 01:26:32,239
capacity is basketball and.

1785
01:26:32,279 --> 01:26:33,520
Speaker 3: Like tennis a little bit.

1786
01:26:35,000 --> 01:26:37,439
Speaker 1: I keep getting this when I do any podcast spots

1787
01:26:37,520 --> 01:26:39,319
or radio spots. They always ask me when I when

1788
01:26:39,359 --> 01:26:41,039
I bring up the schedules, say it's not going to change,

1789
01:26:41,039 --> 01:26:43,000
but the schedule is too long, and that's the root.

1790
01:26:42,840 --> 01:26:43,359
Speaker 3: Of a lot of this.

1791
01:26:43,800 --> 01:26:45,319
Speaker 1: Then well they don't have that problem in baseball and

1792
01:26:45,319 --> 01:26:46,960
there's one hundred and sixty two games.

1793
01:26:47,359 --> 01:26:48,439
Speaker 3: What is do you have?

1794
01:26:48,520 --> 01:26:50,640
Speaker 1: I know you follow baseball a little bit, like what

1795
01:26:50,760 --> 01:26:53,399
is the what is the pulse on that with fans

1796
01:26:53,479 --> 01:26:56,359
and what makes it so different from what the NBA

1797
01:26:56,760 --> 01:26:57,640
is dealing with.

1798
01:26:57,640 --> 01:26:59,720
Speaker 3: As whether functionally or perceptionally.

1799
01:27:00,840 --> 01:27:03,199
Speaker 2: I mean, part of it is the sheer age of

1800
01:27:03,199 --> 01:27:05,720
the sport. It's just, you know, it's been one hundred

1801
01:27:05,720 --> 01:27:08,079
and sixty two games for a long time. I actually

1802
01:27:08,119 --> 01:27:10,880
I don't know. I'm it hasn't always been one sixty two.

1803
01:27:11,239 --> 01:27:14,199
It's not an issue for several reasons. I think one

1804
01:27:14,279 --> 01:27:18,920
is Baseball's is predominantly a stationary sport. And the physical toll. Yeah,

1805
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,279
there's a physical toll, Like guys are broken down in

1806
01:27:21,319 --> 01:27:23,720
August or whatever it's that, they call them the dog days.

1807
01:27:23,760 --> 01:27:28,079
It's just baseball's rough around. Then it's kind of like

1808
01:27:28,199 --> 01:27:30,399
January in the NBA. It's kind of just like, oh

1809
01:27:30,439 --> 01:27:33,600
my god, we how much longer do we have? I

1810
01:27:34,000 --> 01:27:38,119
don't think there's the same. The physical toll is different.

1811
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:43,319
I think there's also again, there's not an incentive to

1812
01:27:43,359 --> 01:27:46,119
tank in baseball. It's it's just a totally different set

1813
01:27:46,159 --> 01:27:48,840
of circumstances. So like if you think the length of

1814
01:27:48,880 --> 01:27:51,640
the season is somewhat related to tanking, like that's not

1815
01:27:51,760 --> 01:27:55,159
a threat that that that doesn't apply in baseball, there's not.

1816
01:27:56,039 --> 01:27:59,199
To me, there's there hasn't been any discussion about shortening

1817
01:27:59,239 --> 01:28:02,279
the baseball season. I don't think anybody wants it. Maybe

1818
01:28:02,319 --> 01:28:05,079
I'm wrong, but it's it's certainly not anything close to

1819
01:28:05,119 --> 01:28:08,199
the level of the NBA where it's like this is

1820
01:28:08,239 --> 01:28:10,640
the number one thing that everyone agrees needs to happen,

1821
01:28:10,640 --> 01:28:11,479
and it hasn't happened.

1822
01:28:11,479 --> 01:28:14,760
Speaker 1: It's not like that at all, which I just find interesting. Then,

1823
01:28:14,880 --> 01:28:16,960
because it's like one hundred and sixty two games is

1824
01:28:16,960 --> 01:28:19,000
a lot. It's a lot of those games are longer

1825
01:28:19,039 --> 01:28:21,199
than most NBA games, aren't they They're long.

1826
01:28:21,319 --> 01:28:23,039
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's the other thing. Baseball has been

1827
01:28:23,119 --> 01:28:26,720
very proactive in improving the product for fans and viewers,

1828
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:29,439
like they're shortening games. They've instituted the pitch clock, and

1829
01:28:29,479 --> 01:28:31,680
it's you're getting a lot more two hour games now

1830
01:28:32,079 --> 01:28:34,000
then you there was a minute there where you could

1831
01:28:34,000 --> 01:28:37,239
get three and four hour games like very routinely, so

1832
01:28:37,319 --> 01:28:42,039
they've addressed that. I just think I think because the

1833
01:28:42,640 --> 01:28:46,239
season is too long argument makes so much sense in

1834
01:28:46,279 --> 01:28:48,560
the NBA. Is it's just like it's very obvious that

1835
01:28:48,680 --> 01:28:51,960
teams and players are breaking down and I don't feel

1836
01:28:51,960 --> 01:28:54,239
like that's There hasn't been a one to one connection

1837
01:28:54,359 --> 01:28:55,960
like that in baseball that I'm aware of.

1838
01:28:56,800 --> 01:28:58,800
Speaker 1: And by the way, just to close up the thing

1839
01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:01,239
that needs to be mentioned whenever it's is in basketball.

1840
01:29:01,279 --> 01:29:03,279
I think it's always going to prevail to some extent

1841
01:29:03,359 --> 01:29:05,840
because it is the team sport where a singular person

1842
01:29:05,920 --> 01:29:10,079
can make the biggest difference, and that's something that gets overlooked.

1843
01:29:10,079 --> 01:29:13,039
Speaker 3: I feel like a lot in those discussions. Yep, yeah,

1844
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:15,720
gready to take us out of here, sir, yep.

1845
01:29:15,720 --> 01:29:18,039
Speaker 2: Thanks everybody for listening, for watching, for listening to us,

1846
01:29:18,039 --> 01:29:21,199
and watching us solve all of the problems that face

1847
01:29:21,279 --> 01:29:24,119
the league. At least we've done at least as much

1848
01:29:24,159 --> 01:29:27,000
as this latest round of solutions from the NBA has done.

1849
01:29:27,039 --> 01:29:29,880
I would say, if not more, please murder, rate, review

1850
01:29:29,880 --> 01:29:32,079
and subscribe. Join our discord links for that in the

1851
01:29:32,079 --> 01:29:34,079
YouTube and podcast description. You can do that to submit

1852
01:29:34,119 --> 01:29:37,680
Guessa players to I Guess for next year. Get involved

1853
01:29:37,720 --> 01:29:39,880
in the over unders and beat us. We're eminently beatable,

1854
01:29:40,239 --> 01:29:43,039
as we've proven time after time, so get involved there.

1855
01:29:43,199 --> 01:29:44,920
Speaker 3: Let us know your biggest misses too.

1856
01:29:44,920 --> 01:29:47,199
Speaker 1: If you had any that diverge from this list, I

1857
01:29:47,239 --> 01:29:49,039
think a lot of the misses were probably like the

1858
01:29:49,119 --> 01:29:51,680
Suns and the hornet showing up feel pretty consensus. I

1859
01:29:51,680 --> 01:29:53,239
think a lot of people might have been in front

1860
01:29:53,279 --> 01:29:54,880
of the spurs more than we are.

1861
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:55,279
Speaker 3: I'm sure.

1862
01:29:55,439 --> 01:29:58,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, I bet that's the one where there's the most

1863
01:29:58,520 --> 01:30:01,439
the largest share of people will say, well, we we

1864
01:30:01,520 --> 01:30:03,760
didn't predict Wenby to be a super duperstar, and this

1865
01:30:03,880 --> 01:30:06,119
first also not be very good because we're not idiots.

1866
01:30:06,119 --> 01:30:09,680
We we parlayed that. That's a that's a classic avid gambler.

1867
01:30:09,960 --> 01:30:11,960
That's a parlay. So you're probably gonna want to want

1868
01:30:11,960 --> 01:30:14,399
to get on the on the ticket, Tell your friends,

1869
01:30:14,399 --> 01:30:17,560
tell your enemies. Shouts Franklin like Kino. Apologies, Jared Allen