WEBVTT 1 00:00:06.320 --> 00:00:09.880 Hello, and welcome to today's episode of alex Er. Miss. 2 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.359 I am joined as always by our wonderful panel of hosts, 3 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:20.239 including Bruce Kate. Hi everybody, Hey Bruce, We've got Josh Adams, Hello, Hi, Josh, 4 00:00:20.519 --> 00:00:23.399 Lars Vikmann what. 5 00:00:23.239 --> 00:00:24.839 Was that colloquial Swedish? 6 00:00:25.039 --> 00:00:25.399 Very nice? 7 00:00:25.399 --> 00:00:25.640 Hello? 8 00:00:25.679 --> 00:00:25.920 Hello? 9 00:00:26.519 --> 00:00:27.719 Hello? Hello, very cool? 10 00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:32.479 And Steven Nias helloes all. 11 00:00:32.399 --> 00:00:34.359 Our something Yeah, I think you do have to he 12 00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:39.159 out there perfect and joining us as a guest. We 13 00:00:39.240 --> 00:00:42.600 are very lucky to have an also netto who is 14 00:00:42.640 --> 00:00:45.159 a professor of computer science and he's also very active 15 00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:48.759 in the Elixir community, especially with regards to Elixir education. 16 00:00:49.039 --> 00:00:50.880 I am super happy that you could join us today 17 00:00:50.880 --> 00:00:53.240 because these are really some of my favorite topics, education 18 00:00:53.359 --> 00:00:56.399 and Elixer. You wouldn't mind go ahead and introduce yourself. 19 00:00:56.439 --> 00:00:57.399 Thank you very much. 20 00:00:57.840 --> 00:01:00.600 My name is Ago From, a professor or at the 21 00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:02.439 Federal University of Technology. 22 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:05.400 But now which is it's here. 23 00:01:05.159 --> 00:01:09.200 In Critiba, Brazil, and I teach lodge for computer science 24 00:01:09.359 --> 00:01:13.840 and also an introduction to Functional Programming course. And I 25 00:01:14.120 --> 00:01:17.760 got interested in Elixir because it was created by a Brazilian. 26 00:01:17.879 --> 00:01:21.200 I have to say that because that was attracted me to. 27 00:01:21.200 --> 00:01:25.280 The language at first, but now I admire the language 28 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.000 and also it's community. 29 00:01:27.200 --> 00:01:31.879 So do you actually get to teach elixure at your university. 30 00:01:31.959 --> 00:01:37.760 Yes, I don't have many students, least offering I had 31 00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:42.040 for students only because it's an optional course. It's you 32 00:01:42.079 --> 00:01:46.599 don't have to take this course to graduate in computer science. 33 00:01:46.640 --> 00:01:49.680 So actually we don't have computer science here. It's computer 34 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:54.480 engineering and information systems, but it's it's an optional. For instance, 35 00:01:54.680 --> 00:01:58.680 I have an agual methods classes to class to and 36 00:01:59.000 --> 00:02:03.599 it's it has much more students because it attracts more 37 00:02:03.719 --> 00:02:07.439 interest for it. It's more interesting for the students to 38 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:12.080 learn what's screamed than elixir. But I hope that as 39 00:02:12.120 --> 00:02:14.840 the time passes, more of the students are going to 40 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.439 get interested in this class. 41 00:02:17.560 --> 00:02:19.599 It's interesting. We've gotten to spend a little bit of 42 00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:22.479 time together. For those who don't know, I have a 43 00:02:22.599 --> 00:02:26.080 metroing group and Adolfo shows up as I don't know 44 00:02:26.159 --> 00:02:28.680 something between a metro and amitee, which is kind of 45 00:02:28.680 --> 00:02:31.080 great for my students. But I have some questions. Do 46 00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:34.280 you have any techniques that you can throw my way 47 00:02:34.439 --> 00:02:36.319 or are there anythings that we do that you're going 48 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:38.199 to take with you in your teaching approaches. 49 00:02:38.599 --> 00:02:42.680 Actually, I think I'm learning more with you than the 50 00:02:42.759 --> 00:02:48.000 opposite because be for this introduction to functional Programming course, 51 00:02:48.199 --> 00:02:52.560 I only taught and laudnge for computer science, so it 52 00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:57.039 was not an introduction to programming. I'm still trying to 53 00:02:57.120 --> 00:03:00.879 learn which is the best approach to teach programming. And 54 00:03:01.919 --> 00:03:05.280 what I try to do is teach them how to 55 00:03:05.479 --> 00:03:09.719 write a program in Elixir, but also the fundamentals and 56 00:03:10.280 --> 00:03:14.719 papers about the actor model, and so it's kind of 57 00:03:14.879 --> 00:03:18.960 makes There is also this academic approach that I think 58 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:22.520 that's what's different from your approach with your main keys. 59 00:03:22.840 --> 00:03:26.280 Yeah, it's been fun to actually have smaller classes where 60 00:03:26.319 --> 00:03:28.080 we can flip the keyboard, and I think that that 61 00:03:28.719 --> 00:03:31.039 has been an eye opener for me. Do you get 62 00:03:31.080 --> 00:03:35.120 a chance to actually invite the key is to get 63 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:36.360 up in code ever? 64 00:03:36.719 --> 00:03:38.639 I know I never had that in my pression. 65 00:03:39.120 --> 00:03:42.680 Yes, yes, because I'm also a big fan of the 66 00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.120 coding those who technique. I have written some papers about it, 67 00:03:47.400 --> 00:03:51.199 and whenever I can, I invite my students to do 68 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.039 a coding those with whole class, and every five to 69 00:03:55.159 --> 00:03:58.960 seven minutes they first they do pre programming. So there's 70 00:03:59.159 --> 00:04:03.560 two persons on using the computer, and one of them 71 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:07.159 is the driver and the other is the audiency. I 72 00:04:07.280 --> 00:04:12.520 don't remember the name, but the one that's observing and navigator, yes, navigator, 73 00:04:13.280 --> 00:04:16.959 And after some time the navigators becomes a driver. The 74 00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:21.360 drives go back to his seat, and another students takes 75 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:24.439 the place of the navigator. You have to be always 76 00:04:24.920 --> 00:04:28.480 paying attention to what's happening to be able to write 77 00:04:28.560 --> 00:04:31.199 some code in front of the class. That's something that 78 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.839 I really like. I had a Master's student who wrote, 79 00:04:35.279 --> 00:04:39.160 actually the two masters students, they wrote their thesis on 80 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.319 coding those who so I tried to practice these with 81 00:04:42.519 --> 00:04:43.199 my students. 82 00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:46.360 It's interesting that you mentioned giving your students I think 83 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:48.879 you mentioned some papers on like the actor model to 84 00:04:48.959 --> 00:04:53.120 read and that made me realize that when I was 85 00:04:53.399 --> 00:04:57.199 learning a lexur, I didn't really know what that was 86 00:04:57.600 --> 00:04:59.800 or even have an opportunity to think too much about it. 87 00:05:00.480 --> 00:05:04.079 And so maybe almost like a year into you know, 88 00:05:04.199 --> 00:05:06.959 writing a lecture professionally, and I have an oh oh background, 89 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:09.120 Like I learned Ruby first, I was a real developer, 90 00:05:09.639 --> 00:05:11.839 and so a lot of my journey into Alix was 91 00:05:11.920 --> 00:05:15.000 characterized by like writing a lot of really messy sort 92 00:05:15.040 --> 00:05:18.480 of oh oh inflected Elixer code. And so one of 93 00:05:18.519 --> 00:05:20.439 the things I'm always curious about is, you know, what 94 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:24.040 is it like to teach and learn something functional first, 95 00:05:24.240 --> 00:05:26.600 as opposed to learning oh and then like trying to 96 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:29.480 sort of fight your way into a functional way of thinking. 97 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.720 I don't know if you've taught oh oh as well 98 00:05:31.759 --> 00:05:33.959 as functional or you know how you think about these 99 00:05:34.040 --> 00:05:36.879 different totally different frameworks and mental models. 100 00:05:37.240 --> 00:05:41.040 Yes, the problem is that my students, when they come 101 00:05:41.160 --> 00:05:45.160 to this optional course, they already know how to problem. 102 00:05:45.279 --> 00:05:48.439 So I don't know how it is to teach functional 103 00:05:48.560 --> 00:05:52.680 programming first because they already The problem that they have 104 00:05:53.120 --> 00:05:56.560 is in that I tweeted a few days ago, was 105 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:00.560 that they do what you said, They know how to 106 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:03.439 do objective or in the program, and they try to 107 00:06:03.519 --> 00:06:06.759 do something like that with Elixir and they have it's 108 00:06:06.920 --> 00:06:10.720 really difficult for them. For the few students that I had, 109 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:14.519 tried to write some more ideomatic codes, some code that 110 00:06:14.680 --> 00:06:18.399 looks like Elixure that makes use of pattern matching and 111 00:06:18.879 --> 00:06:22.639 small functions and lots of things that you can do 112 00:06:22.959 --> 00:06:26.319 in Elixir you can do in functional programming language, and 113 00:06:26.519 --> 00:06:29.639 it makes the code more readable, but you can't do it. 114 00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:29.839 Know. 115 00:06:30.000 --> 00:06:33.079 Also, at first, I'm not a professional programmer, so I 116 00:06:33.399 --> 00:06:37.279 program whenever I can. But I did my phdtas is 117 00:06:37.399 --> 00:06:39.920 used in Java, so I can say that I could 118 00:06:40.040 --> 00:06:44.560 write some reasonably good Java codes. And when I started 119 00:06:44.759 --> 00:06:48.680 Elixir now and before Alix, I started closure, and it 120 00:06:49.000 --> 00:06:50.240 was difficult to say. 121 00:06:50.160 --> 00:06:52.240 Now, how do I do that? How do I do 122 00:06:52.360 --> 00:06:53.279 a for loop? Here? 123 00:06:54.160 --> 00:06:56.879 There's no for loops, so I had to try to 124 00:06:57.399 --> 00:07:01.759 do things differently. So it's problem that I still don't have. 125 00:07:02.040 --> 00:07:05.480 But I want to have one of my projects. I 126 00:07:05.560 --> 00:07:09.480 have many projects, not all of them I put them 127 00:07:09.639 --> 00:07:12.399 in practice, But one of them was to create a 128 00:07:12.639 --> 00:07:17.040 programming chorse or even write a book for complete beginners, 129 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:20.639 people that can't program in any language, and say oh now, 130 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:24.680 let's learn Elixir without the telling them that it's Elixir. 131 00:07:25.439 --> 00:07:26.879 Let's because there are. 132 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:31.360 Many productory books about Elixir that, for for example, my 133 00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:33.639 friends Police is all made that he wrote a great 134 00:07:33.720 --> 00:07:38.199 book about learning functional programming and with Elixir, but he 135 00:07:38.439 --> 00:07:42.079 kind of expects that people already know how to program 136 00:07:42.240 --> 00:07:43.759 with some other language. 137 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:46.120 I believe Dave Thomas's book. 138 00:07:46.360 --> 00:07:51.000 Also expects even more such a uric book, So there's 139 00:07:51.120 --> 00:07:55.759 no program no programming book or that teaches functional programming 140 00:07:55.879 --> 00:07:58.160 with Elixir for complete beginners. 141 00:07:58.360 --> 00:08:01.800 As far as yes, such books do exist for the 142 00:08:01.879 --> 00:08:06.120 Haskell language, which is kind of a big step, right 143 00:08:06.199 --> 00:08:10.240 because you're you're not just grappling with the paradigm of 144 00:08:10.600 --> 00:08:12.519 you know, with an object and things, but you're also 145 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:17.480 working into a completely different kind of type theory. And 146 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:21.839 these these concepts are just pretty stunning to me. So 147 00:08:21.920 --> 00:08:24.639 another professor that that I really like is a man 148 00:08:24.720 --> 00:08:27.879 named John Hughes, one of the creators of Pascal, and 149 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:32.320 he came to Chattanooga to attend our conference and I 150 00:08:32.440 --> 00:08:34.720 was fortunate to spend another couple of days with them. 151 00:08:35.120 --> 00:08:41.559 But he regularly taught students without any kind of mental corruption, right, 152 00:08:41.960 --> 00:08:45.759 and these are computer science students. So what's interesting to 153 00:08:45.879 --> 00:08:48.240 me is the students that I get that that are 154 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:51.480 starting to proscritch are normally professionals that have tried to 155 00:08:52.720 --> 00:08:55.919 make a go in something else, right, So they they 156 00:08:56.120 --> 00:08:59.200 have the benefit of not having some of the baggage 157 00:08:59.639 --> 00:09:02.240 of a for programming paradigm that we have to deconstruct, 158 00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:07.000 but they also don't have the experience with the tools 159 00:09:07.159 --> 00:09:09.879 that they need for basic fluency, how to navigate the 160 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.240 command line, how to use source control, how to do 161 00:09:13.440 --> 00:09:17.440 things like that, and and that's that is a tremendous obstacle. 162 00:09:17.759 --> 00:09:20.399 So you find the same thing teaching at university. 163 00:09:20.679 --> 00:09:21.120 You mean the. 164 00:09:23.240 --> 00:09:26.919 Basically a fluency with with the basic tools, you know, 165 00:09:27.399 --> 00:09:31.559 source control, editors, navigation of the command line, things like that. 166 00:09:31.879 --> 00:09:36.039 Yes, the first year students here at the Universe, some 167 00:09:36.240 --> 00:09:39.320 of them don't have any fluence, so they learn. See 168 00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:43.320 the teachers that teach them in the first semester they 169 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:46.399 teach them. See, so they learned their basically in the 170 00:09:46.480 --> 00:09:49.759 first semesters. When they arrive in my class, they or 171 00:09:49.799 --> 00:09:52.000 I don't know how to do that, but I see 172 00:09:52.200 --> 00:09:54.639 what I mean. In there there are some. 173 00:09:55.039 --> 00:10:00.320 Online ideas like rep I don't know rip those do 174 00:10:00.600 --> 00:10:01.519 it and. 175 00:10:01.639 --> 00:10:04.279 Also win the box where you don't have to learn 176 00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:08.639 everything that create a file and all those things to 177 00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:12.200 be able to write some basic programs in ELIKSU. 178 00:10:12.639 --> 00:10:17.039 Yeah, on the subject of just teaching absolute beginners, one 179 00:10:17.080 --> 00:10:19.120 of the best books I ever found for this was 180 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:23.480 Chris Pines Learned a Program which is in Ruby. I 181 00:10:23.559 --> 00:10:27.799 have a friend who was sort of modely technically competent. 182 00:10:27.960 --> 00:10:30.600 He learned the program Ruby using that book. He's the CTEO. 183 00:10:30.720 --> 00:10:31.440 Now have a startup. 184 00:10:31.519 --> 00:10:33.919 Really fun to watch that that actually can work. That's 185 00:10:34.000 --> 00:10:37.000 not a testimonial for chris Pine's book. I really don't 186 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:38.960 know what it is. Yeah, it's really interesting to think 187 00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:42.000 about how to teach absolute beginners. And that's something that 188 00:10:42.440 --> 00:10:44.840 when Steven and I were teaching together at the Finer School, 189 00:10:44.879 --> 00:10:47.200 that's exactly what we did and what we were teaching 190 00:10:47.399 --> 00:10:49.080 was Ruby. And I think, at least at the time 191 00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:51.200 when I was a student there, which I was for 192 00:10:51.399 --> 00:10:53.840 being a teacher there, Chris Pine's book was I don't 193 00:10:53.840 --> 00:10:55.360 know if it was required, but it was sort of 194 00:10:55.480 --> 00:10:58.480 recommended pre reading of starting the course. And I think 195 00:10:58.519 --> 00:11:01.200 one of the things that I loved about teaching Ruby 196 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:03.720 to absolute beginners, and one of the reasons why the 197 00:11:03.759 --> 00:11:06.279 school kind of touted it at such a great language 198 00:11:06.279 --> 00:11:09.080 for beginners is because it's easy to see how it 199 00:11:09.200 --> 00:11:12.279 models the real world. Right. There's an early assignment, I think, 200 00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:14.919 where we have students build out like a pet store 201 00:11:15.000 --> 00:11:16.679 or something, right, and you have a dog and the 202 00:11:16.799 --> 00:11:19.480 characteristics of a dog, and then you hadstantia dog objects 203 00:11:19.480 --> 00:11:21.600 and you know, take them to the vet or something 204 00:11:21.720 --> 00:11:23.879 like that. And for a while I was really just 205 00:11:24.039 --> 00:11:27.399 totally sold on oh oh models the real world, like 206 00:11:27.600 --> 00:11:31.080 that is the mental model for writing code that models 207 00:11:31.120 --> 00:11:34.080 the world. But now that I'm working with Elixir and 208 00:11:34.200 --> 00:11:36.519 thinking about things more functionally, I'm kind of thinking like, 209 00:11:36.919 --> 00:11:39.960 does it isn't it that message passing models the world? 210 00:11:40.279 --> 00:11:42.559 And that's certainly what Joe Armstrong, you know, would argue, 211 00:11:42.679 --> 00:11:45.120 And isn't it that the actor model really models the world? 212 00:11:45.240 --> 00:11:48.159 So it still feels like these things are at odds, 213 00:11:48.200 --> 00:11:51.080 like can they both be accurate representations of the way 214 00:11:51.200 --> 00:11:53.720 that you know, people and objects move through the world. 215 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:55.039 Well, I think that. 216 00:11:56.200 --> 00:11:58.759 As I said, I came from a large in computer 217 00:11:59.000 --> 00:12:04.559 science background, and there is one thing that's it's real 218 00:12:05.039 --> 00:12:08.360 large even before in program is that there are many 219 00:12:08.559 --> 00:12:12.320 many models of the world. There is, for instance, loge. 220 00:12:12.399 --> 00:12:17.240 There is a classical propositional logic that we use mostly 221 00:12:17.360 --> 00:12:21.919 on programming is only one loge. There is multi valued loge. 222 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:27.039 There is relevant lodge into an KI logic, there's minilarge. 223 00:12:27.480 --> 00:12:31.240 I believe that depending on the problem, one model is 224 00:12:31.320 --> 00:12:34.480 going to be the best. For other problems, there are 225 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:38.039 two possible models, and you can choose so I don't 226 00:12:38.080 --> 00:12:42.639 think that's the problem. Maybe this book that teaches an 227 00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:45.559 absolute beginner how to program in Ruby is good for 228 00:12:45.879 --> 00:12:49.399 a person, and this other book that teaches how to 229 00:12:49.519 --> 00:12:54.120 program in Haskell is good for a mathematically inclined person, 230 00:12:54.480 --> 00:12:57.679 And so there there. I think that the great thing 231 00:12:57.799 --> 00:13:01.519 about all these programming languages there are many options. So 232 00:13:02.120 --> 00:13:06.039 I know people love closure. I know people hate closure 233 00:13:06.200 --> 00:13:10.559 because there is so many parentheses, and closure is even 234 00:13:11.240 --> 00:13:13.679 has less apparences than LESP. 235 00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:19.200 There's everything. It's made with perencies. So I don't think 236 00:13:19.200 --> 00:13:21.200 it's a problem. But I think here is that we 237 00:13:21.360 --> 00:13:23.159 have to provide options, and the. 238 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:28.240 Students, the users, the persons, the people that want to 239 00:13:28.360 --> 00:13:31.240 learn programming, they choose what's best for them. 240 00:13:31.519 --> 00:13:35.039 I think that we're kind of entering a golden age 241 00:13:35.080 --> 00:13:38.399 of programming in some ways, because we've come out of 242 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.480 a place when there was one true way, right, there 243 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:46.000 was the Java way, and then the darkness find them right. 244 00:13:46.200 --> 00:13:49.480 So we were starting to get to the point where 245 00:13:50.120 --> 00:13:54.679 it's not just useful, but almost expected to have more 246 00:13:54.799 --> 00:13:58.960 than one tool in your tool back. And so for 247 00:13:59.120 --> 00:14:02.159 that reason, I think that probably the most important thing 248 00:14:02.200 --> 00:14:05.519 that we can learn is the skill of learning right. 249 00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:08.600 And so that's that's something that I've always really respected 250 00:14:08.679 --> 00:14:12.799 about you in your work, and especially this dojo approach 251 00:14:12.879 --> 00:14:15.120 where where you teach people to roll out their slaves 252 00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:18.840 and get their hands dirty first, really early in the process. 253 00:14:19.039 --> 00:14:22.559 Yes, And what's great about codin dozho it was created 254 00:14:22.679 --> 00:14:26.000 by two French guys. I believe that it was created 255 00:14:26.200 --> 00:14:30.799 in France. I can't remember the names of the loo 256 00:14:30.960 --> 00:14:33.679 Bosavi and I don't remember the. 257 00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:34.799 Name of the other guy. 258 00:14:34.919 --> 00:14:39.960 But one of the goals when I learned the coding 259 00:14:40.000 --> 00:14:42.720 doozho from one of my students, it is one of 260 00:14:42.799 --> 00:14:44.639 the goals I know you you do. 261 00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:48.000 During one two three. 262 00:14:47.879 --> 00:14:51.200 Hours, you solve a problem a code kata. And this 263 00:14:51.559 --> 00:14:55.320 concept of code kata was created by the great Dave Thomas, 264 00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:59.519 which you know well, and his idea was it was 265 00:14:59.600 --> 00:15:03.320 a small problem that you'd solve several times with. 266 00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.840 Different techniques in different languages. 267 00:15:06.519 --> 00:15:09.679 And so in there it's it's the de seed for 268 00:15:10.120 --> 00:15:13.759 this idea that you for you to be a good programmer, 269 00:15:13.879 --> 00:15:16.480 you can't be just don't know, I'm going to become 270 00:15:16.679 --> 00:15:20.440 perfect with Java and forget all about the other language. No, 271 00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.279 you can learn product you can learn, list you can learn. 272 00:15:24.600 --> 00:15:28.799 Of course, you have to decide. That's something that was 273 00:15:28.879 --> 00:15:33.559 happening at the Elixir World telegram group today is that 274 00:15:34.120 --> 00:15:36.919 sometimes you have to choose you cannot. I'm going to 275 00:15:37.120 --> 00:15:39.080 learn a bit of ELM, a bit of Elixir, a 276 00:15:39.159 --> 00:15:42.000 bit of Irland, a bit of Java, and and that 277 00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.159 being competent nothing you have to choose. I'm going to 278 00:15:45.240 --> 00:15:49.480 be good in elixure, I'm going to study other language 279 00:15:49.639 --> 00:15:53.080 so that I will be a better Elixir developer, a 280 00:15:53.159 --> 00:15:56.440 better developer in general, and maybe in the future again, 281 00:15:56.519 --> 00:16:00.240 oh no, Now I don't have a job with elik serve, 282 00:16:00.279 --> 00:16:03.279 but they have a Java job, so I can do 283 00:16:03.480 --> 00:16:04.000 Java too. 284 00:16:04.360 --> 00:16:04.840 And this is. 285 00:16:06.320 --> 00:16:09.200 Sorry, this is a real case. A friend of mine 286 00:16:09.320 --> 00:16:11.879 she had an elixirve job and then she went to 287 00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:16.759 Sweden to be an airline developer, and then she found 288 00:16:16.799 --> 00:16:17.759 a Java job. 289 00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:19.360 So yeah. 290 00:16:19.960 --> 00:16:23.120 In my experience, the whole idea of being a generalist 291 00:16:23.720 --> 00:16:26.679 sort of turns out to be a pretty good specialty 292 00:16:27.360 --> 00:16:31.120 and just having multiple things to lean on and having 293 00:16:31.159 --> 00:16:36.600 a wide knowledge of technology servers. For example, the field 294 00:16:36.600 --> 00:16:40.519 of web development is by its very nature extremely wide. 295 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:43.480 There's a ton of things you should know to be 296 00:16:44.080 --> 00:16:48.960 really knowledgeable about the web, both back and front end, 297 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.039 and the web standards and the APIs. There are so 298 00:16:53.679 --> 00:16:58.039 many things, and every domain in programming is basically like that, 299 00:16:58.240 --> 00:17:00.720 and there's a lot of depth and there's a lot 300 00:17:00.759 --> 00:17:04.240 of width. And of course you can focus down on 301 00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:08.000 a language to become an absolute expert in wielding the 302 00:17:08.279 --> 00:17:13.720 minute details of Java or Elixir or Python or c. 303 00:17:14.359 --> 00:17:17.359 But you can also pick up a few different languages 304 00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:21.000 or pick up a wide skill set where Okay, you 305 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:24.519 need a SEQL database up and running, or now we 306 00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:28.200 need to set up some additional servers, or we need 307 00:17:28.319 --> 00:17:31.559 to write something in this language because we're using a 308 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:35.240 project written in an entirely different language. Is there anyone 309 00:17:35.519 --> 00:17:38.000 that can actually read the code and work with it? 310 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:38.920 Okay? Yeah. 311 00:17:39.079 --> 00:17:41.559 If you know a few languages, picking up a new one, 312 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:45.519 for example, is usually fairly straightforward, except when you run 313 00:17:45.559 --> 00:17:49.319 into like the paradigm shift of functional programming, for example. 314 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:55.720 But I think having that generalist approach tends to I've 315 00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:59.039 often heard the advice to specialize, you need to be 316 00:17:59.119 --> 00:18:01.480 good at a specific thing, and I think I think 317 00:18:01.559 --> 00:18:05.480 people mistake what that should be and what that needs 318 00:18:05.519 --> 00:18:08.440 to be. I think you can be very experienced. It 319 00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.400 can be an expert. That doesn't mean that you know 320 00:18:11.640 --> 00:18:14.519 every detail of the language. It can, but then you're 321 00:18:14.519 --> 00:18:18.200 a language doctor or a language specialist. That's usually not 322 00:18:18.319 --> 00:18:24.119 the most useful value add for a particular endeavor in 323 00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:25.920 my experience, and I. 324 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:29.839 Mean, it strikes me, Adolpho, that you are essentially starting 325 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.119 to move people in this direction right with your functional 326 00:18:32.160 --> 00:18:34.480 programming course and with the way that the world is 327 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:37.960 moving or needs to move. Maybe it's a movie there 328 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:42.640 fast enough, but it strikes me that you've you've at 329 00:18:42.680 --> 00:18:44.599 some point you've made a decision and to take people 330 00:18:44.680 --> 00:18:47.400 in this direction. When when was that? When did you 331 00:18:47.480 --> 00:18:51.400 start to be more of kind of open up the 332 00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.960 blinders a little bit. In the United States, there are 333 00:18:54.160 --> 00:18:57.200 a whole lot of schools that are invested in teaching 334 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:00.839 Java and teaching Microsoft because that's where the certification, and 335 00:19:00.920 --> 00:19:03.119 they've made investments in those places and they just can't 336 00:19:03.119 --> 00:19:03.559 break away. 337 00:19:03.799 --> 00:19:07.359 I have a lot of freedom here in the public university, 338 00:19:07.480 --> 00:19:10.960 where the government owns the university and it's free for 339 00:19:11.160 --> 00:19:16.279 the students, so I can offer the course. I have 340 00:19:16.480 --> 00:19:19.680 some freedom to offer some courses, and I decided to 341 00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:26.240 start this functional programming course and functional programming is getting 342 00:19:26.680 --> 00:19:31.200 more well known with Brazilian software developers because there is 343 00:19:31.279 --> 00:19:35.119 a big company called New Bank, which it's a kind 344 00:19:35.160 --> 00:19:39.200 of a banking additional banking company. They have a credit 345 00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.720 card and they bought platform Attack, which is the company 346 00:19:42.759 --> 00:19:43.720 where Gioseffelin. 347 00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:47.359 Actually Giosefeline not only worked with that, but he was 348 00:19:47.480 --> 00:19:49.400 one of the owners of the company. 349 00:19:49.839 --> 00:19:54.720 And after that, the same company bought cogny Tact, which 350 00:19:55.200 --> 00:19:59.359 was the company is it still is the company behind Closure. 351 00:19:59.519 --> 00:20:03.240 So there was some kind of publicity for. 352 00:20:03.480 --> 00:20:07.359 Functional programming language here in Brazil because of these two 353 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:10.599 companies that were bought. So I hope that in the 354 00:20:10.720 --> 00:20:14.720 near future I have more students for my functional Programming plus. 355 00:20:14.799 --> 00:20:19.480 I tried to offer them this because they what they 356 00:20:19.960 --> 00:20:25.039 learn as mandatory courses is c C plus plus and job. 357 00:20:26.480 --> 00:20:28.960 That's what they have to learn. But if they want, 358 00:20:29.000 --> 00:20:31.559 they can learn Elixir too. 359 00:20:32.119 --> 00:20:34.599 I think related to this kind of on the topic 360 00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.839 of teaching and producing generalists, sort of what you're saying like, okay, well, 361 00:20:39.440 --> 00:20:41.960 students are if not required, then they're kind of put 362 00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:44.200 into these boxes to learn these three languages, and if 363 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:45.839 they want to they can come over here. And learn 364 00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:48.880 this as well really releases something you said earlier, which 365 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:52.519 is that you're not teaching students alixir, although you know 366 00:20:52.640 --> 00:20:55.000 hopefully you are. You're teaching them how to learn, and 367 00:20:55.480 --> 00:20:58.480 I've always found that one of the best ways to 368 00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:03.000 do that is to make your students strategically uncomfortable, like 369 00:21:03.119 --> 00:21:05.160 kind of let let them suffer a little. And I'm 370 00:21:05.160 --> 00:21:07.279 gonna actually put Stephen in the hot feel a little 371 00:21:07.319 --> 00:21:09.319 bit because I think that this is if that's my 372 00:21:09.440 --> 00:21:11.799 teaching ploss that I think I probably stole that from. 373 00:21:11.680 --> 00:21:12.799 You a little bit. 374 00:21:13.000 --> 00:21:15.039 Yeah, I think that you know, there's they're sort of 375 00:21:15.240 --> 00:21:18.559 thinking about learning that you learn through and comfort the most. 376 00:21:18.759 --> 00:21:21.880 So the closure you can safely push people into being uncomfortable, 377 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.440 the faster they'll sort of learn. I think everything is 378 00:21:25.519 --> 00:21:27.920 sort of theoretical until you've gotten to the point where 379 00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:29.559 you're like, oh, I have a deadline and have to 380 00:21:29.599 --> 00:21:32.039 build this project and I'm going to present in front 381 00:21:32.079 --> 00:21:35.039 of my entire class in two days. Oh my god, 382 00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:36.400 this is the end of the world if I do 383 00:21:36.519 --> 00:21:39.960 this wrong. But yeah, I think suffering is important, even 384 00:21:40.000 --> 00:21:41.799 if I sound a little low mean when I say it. 385 00:21:41.920 --> 00:21:44.440 I think that suffering and struggle is where you get 386 00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:46.039 the best learning and where it sticks. 387 00:21:46.440 --> 00:21:46.920 It's funny. 388 00:21:46.960 --> 00:21:49.920 There's a there's a man named Evan Miller, which we 389 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:53.160 should definitely have on this this this podcast at some point. 390 00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:58.000 He's behind the Earl Project Chicago boss and so Adulfo. 391 00:21:58.119 --> 00:22:00.920 We were doing this Mint group that you're part of, 392 00:22:01.240 --> 00:22:03.599 you know, long before you and I met. We were 393 00:22:03.680 --> 00:22:06.440 doing it in Chattanooga, and everyone would show up right 394 00:22:06.680 --> 00:22:09.720 pre pandemic. But Evan would look up my shoulder when 395 00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:13.160 I was teaching somebody and someone would start to go 396 00:22:13.319 --> 00:22:15.559 off in the wrong direction, and that kind of give 397 00:22:15.680 --> 00:22:17.799 them a general nudge, you know, kind of nuts the 398 00:22:17.960 --> 00:22:19.920 rudder every now and then, and you know, I turn 399 00:22:19.960 --> 00:22:23.319 around and if it will be shaking his head right, 400 00:22:23.960 --> 00:22:26.119 and then, you know, so I would try to explain 401 00:22:26.240 --> 00:22:28.920