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Speaker 1: welcome everyone back to the Peaking Yona show. Thomas is
Speaker 1: back for part two talking about the relationship between Islam
Speaker 1: and not only the Third Reich, but you know, you
Speaker 1: talked about the Kaiser years in the first part, so
Speaker 1: jump right in.
Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah, And subsequently, I at least want to dedicate
Speaker 2: a brief addendum to discussing the post war resistance in
Speaker 2: exile and how that dovetailed with the cause of Palestinian
Speaker 2: liberation and Panslamic consciousness generally. I think we got into
Speaker 2: some of that when we were talking about the post
Speaker 2: war diasked for of National Socialists in exile. We were
Speaker 2: talking about how der Veg, which Johann von Leers as
Speaker 2: well as Otto Riemer and Hans Rudel was a major
Speaker 2: contributor to both in terms of his work product and
Speaker 2: capital investment. And when Argentina was no longer a friendly
Speaker 2: environment for that sort of partisan activity owing to Perone
Speaker 2: being forced out of office, von Leers made his way
Speaker 2: to the Court of Nasser, and Egypt and Syria in
Speaker 2: particular were very much the loci of that kind of
Speaker 2: partisan activity, and that's significant because that plays into the
Speaker 2: not just the military culture of the region. On the
Speaker 2: Arab side, many of whom were trained by former National
Speaker 2: Socialists and WEAHRBAX veterans, but also impacted the culture of
Speaker 2: resistance in profound ways, and that's something that's overlooked. And
Speaker 2: we talked a bit about the odd dialectics of the
Speaker 2: DDR and the ROTE Army Fraction and Horse de Mahler. Obviously,
Speaker 2: the element he was representing when he was on the
Speaker 2: ground in the levant was that of the DDR and
Speaker 2: the Rote Army Fraction. But he did a lot to
Speaker 2: facilitate deep contact and operational interdependence with the Popular Front
Speaker 2: for the Liberation at Palestine and the PLO and things,
Speaker 2: and this all ties together, not just conceptually, but in
Speaker 2: terms of a common nucleus of operative fact. If that
Speaker 2: makes sense. I let me see. I tried. I always
Speaker 2: try to indicate in my outlines where I leave off,
Speaker 2: So if I'm repeating myself, please let me know I
Speaker 2: speaking of I raised mind lerisay, if memory serves. We
Speaker 2: left off talking about von Lears and some of his
Speaker 2: work early on and after the National Socialist Revolution, as
Speaker 2: early as ninety thirty four to thirty five, he was
Speaker 2: attempting to create good offices with you know, European Moslims
Speaker 2: in the Balkans, as well as with the elements in
Speaker 2: Palestine and behind the the proverbial wire in the Soviet Union,
Speaker 2: and von Lears very much had the ear of Gebels
Speaker 2: as time went on. Goebels, actually, through the Propaganda Ministry,
Speaker 2: he instructed the press to paint a positive image of Islam,
Speaker 2: or at least not a negative one. This long preceded
Speaker 2: the war, and he urged journalists under the the number
Speaker 2: of the Propaganda Ministry to give credit to the Islamic
Speaker 2: world as a cultural factor that plays a historically significant
Speaker 2: role in the historical process, and that alliance between the
Speaker 2: national socialist cause and Pan Islamism and the liberation of
Speaker 2: the Holy Land is you know, completely commensurate with and
Speaker 2: a component of a national socialist of health politique, you know.
Speaker 2: And this is important for a few reasons. It says
Speaker 2: light not just on the deep ideological culture and philosophical
Speaker 2: disposition of national socialism its standard bears, but also it's
Speaker 2: yet another rebuttal of the claim that the Third Reich
Speaker 2: was this provincial state that didn't understand the cultural and
Speaker 2: strategic situation outside of immediate battle theaters. And that's preposterous
Speaker 2: for a lot of reasons, many of which are obvious.
Speaker 2: Germany was a very cosmopolitan country, not in the modern
Speaker 2: pejorative sense, I mean in the the nineteenth and early
Speaker 2: twentieth century European sense. Von Leers, of course to he
Speaker 2: was a linguist. He was fluent in something like thirteen
Speaker 2: different dialects. He was a cultural anthropologist, I mean what
Speaker 2: we consider a cultural anthropologist. He was a philologist. He
Speaker 2: was an expert on Islam and Oriental societies, and he
Speaker 2: was very much a right Hegelian. And he wrote an essay,
Speaker 2: probably the most famous essay, and it's fairly accessible online.
Speaker 2: I don't know if you can find a translation that's
Speaker 2: not corrupted by Ai slap, but it was titled Judaism
Speaker 2: and Islam is Opposites, and in Hegelian terms, Von Leers
Speaker 2: viewed Islam as the dialectical antithesis and Judaism and a
Speaker 2: splendid repudiation of it. And he said that that's one
Speaker 2: of the reasons why the Caliphate wasn't subverted by a
Speaker 2: hostile Jewish element within, because these were calcit truant people
Speaker 2: were locked behind ghetto walls and every aspect of the
Speaker 2: Islamic cultural, social and legal code precluded them mobilizing in
Speaker 2: a possible capacity to wage war from within by subject
Speaker 2: huge or any other way. And whether anybody accepts that
Speaker 2: perspective or not, or think that its merit within the
Speaker 2: Hegelian paradigm or without, it's a fascinating theory. And I
Speaker 2: highly recommend any of von Leer's essays that you can
Speaker 2: run down. I mean, admittedly have got a discrete interest
Speaker 2: in the subject matter and it's relevant to my own research,
Speaker 2: but I aside from that, I believe it's essentially having
Speaker 2: a complete understanding and conceptual terms of the Third Reich
Speaker 2: and the national socialist ideological culture. And von Leers wasn't
Speaker 2: alone in his overall perspectives. Ferdinand Klaus he was. He
Speaker 2: was a well regarded racial theorist, and he was an
Speaker 2: associate of Hans Gunther Hans of Kate Gunther, who was
Speaker 2: another well known racialist. Both these guys that are profile
Speaker 2: comparable to Houston, Stewart Chamberlain or Lowthrop Stoddard. For comparison,
Speaker 2: Klaus's book Ross un Ross und Seal, Race and Soul
Speaker 2: was for all practical purpose is a best seller. If
Speaker 2: memory serves and for different reasons the Dad that he cited,
Speaker 2: because again he Klaus and going through both had very
Speaker 2: much of a materialist view of race, but they were
Speaker 2: in substantial agreement with Julius Evil and Renee gain On
Speaker 2: and suggesting a basic affinity between the master cast stradom
Speaker 2: of the Nordic race and that of you know, the Caliphate.
Speaker 2: In other words, Islam was emergent and curated by the
Speaker 2: racial overcast within Daryl Islam. And that's one of the
Speaker 2: reasons that's so splendidly tailored to this integral concept of
Speaker 2: sovereignty where every man is in his place and the
Speaker 2: cast system remains undisturbed because it emerges from the natural
Speaker 2: hierarchy within you know, the Oriental paradigm from where it
Speaker 2: was emergent. Klaus wrote reports for the SS Head Office
Speaker 2: on political affairs and strategic matters relating to anthropological considerations,
Speaker 2: and he wrote he wrote a paper that was submitted
Speaker 2: titled Preparation of an Operation for winning over the Islamic Peoples,
Speaker 2: you know, and within it he reflected on the good
Speaker 2: offices between the kaiser Reich and the Ottoman Empire. He
Speaker 2: talked about the warrior heritage of many of the step
Speaker 2: people who were, you know, very very much culturally Muslim,
Speaker 2: and he said it's important to emphasize similarities and Felton
Speaker 2: Schaum between national socialists, doctor and ethics and the Quran,
Speaker 2: you know, and that's very interesting. And to be clear,
Speaker 2: Klaus wasn't suggesting that national socialism was intended as some
Speaker 2: sort of aristox religion. I know that that's something a
Speaker 2: lot of anti fascists like to claim, and Bandy he
Speaker 2: was acknowledging that the Islamic faith structure is very very
Speaker 2: different than religion in the occident. It's the integral aspects
Speaker 2: of it that are significance, because Islam is a political
Speaker 2: doctrine and an ethical disposition as well as the theological system,
Speaker 2: and that's what's key. And if you're a Hegelian, which
Speaker 2: essentially every everybody associated with the Third Reich was to
Speaker 2: some degree or another, you view the development of religiosity
Speaker 2: as being very much bound up with the dialectical process
Speaker 2: within the relevant culture and the variables that the historical
Speaker 2: variables that created Islam were very congress with those that
Speaker 2: gave rise to national socialism, particularly the perennial existential ross
Speaker 2: and Kreeg against the Jew So it's not really a stretch,
Speaker 2: you know. And again you've you've got to understand the
Speaker 2: conceptual parameters of the time and place that these ideas
Speaker 2: are being postulated. There was a unique receptivity, actual potential,
Speaker 2: you know, and a lot of people who otherwise know
Speaker 2: the subject matter are overly dismissive of that. Interestingly, Klaus
Speaker 2: after the war he abandoned the biological racialism. He remained
Speaker 2: an orientalist academic, and he ultimately converted to his lamb.
Speaker 2: That was the case with Carl Wolff, the SS adjutants
Speaker 2: to the permanent SS adjutant to the Fear. Later he
Speaker 2: he commanded troops in the field and he was highly decorated.
Speaker 2: He wasn't just a parade ground soldier, but he he's
Speaker 2: a fascinating guy. In David Irving's True Himmler, which is
Speaker 2: a great book, I understand some people's lament that you
Speaker 2: can tell that it was intended to be two volumes,
Speaker 2: and you know, the infirmity of old age that strikes
Speaker 2: us all down, struck Irving before you complete it. But
Speaker 2: what there is of it is just fantastic. But anyway,
Speaker 2: Carl Wolf's testimony is cited extensively. Anyway, Carl Wolf's daughter,
Speaker 2: Fatima Grimm, she married that check Bosniac Moslem guy, and
Speaker 2: she converted to his lamb and she became an islam
Speaker 2: and theologian. And then she wrote sensibly on jihad is
Speaker 2: a concept. And I realized Klaus and Fatima grim and
Speaker 2: people like I'm at Hubert, it was a fascinating personage.
Speaker 2: I believe Hubert would have been indicted after nine to
Speaker 2: eleven had he not died, but that's a subject or
Speaker 2: a discussion for another day. I realize these people are outliers.
Speaker 2: I'm not suggesting that it's normative or some sort of
Speaker 2: natural progression within German cultural dialectics to convert to Islam.
Speaker 2: I've got too much respect for Islam, but I could
Speaker 2: never imagine converting to Islam. But the exception of somebody
Speaker 2: like Renet Ginon, who truly went native, I mean that,
Speaker 2: you know, living among Moslims and living in the Orient
Speaker 2: for essentially his whole life, that's a different phenomenon. However,
Speaker 2: with those qualifiers, I there is some sort of internal logic,
Speaker 2: especially considered the catastrophe of the Day of Defeat and
Speaker 2: the subsequent occupation. There is some sort of internal logic
Speaker 2: to the peculiar spiritual journey of von Leers, of Fatima,
Speaker 2: Graham of Klaus. I believe, but I'm sure the rebuttal
Speaker 2: of that is that that's speculation the U And there
Speaker 2: was others too. There was other academic writers Schmidtz, Lindemann,
Speaker 2: Reichhardt who posited not just an alliance at gew strategic convenience,
Speaker 2: but an ideological affinity for between Islam and the national
Speaker 2: social state on Hegelian grounds. Lindenman went as far as
Speaker 2: to say that and some of the propaganda that he
Speaker 2: drafted intended for Islamic societies. They said, the fear prinzip
Speaker 2: is the occidental variant of, you know, the same the
Speaker 2: principle that animates the caliphate, you know. And Raichar knew
Speaker 2: the Quran very well, so he was able to cite
Speaker 2: passages that conveyed the notion that Muhammad was the fear
Speaker 2: of the believers and subsequently the caliph represented that role,
Speaker 2: you know. And but he made it clear that the
Speaker 2: fear is comparable to the Mahdi. You know, He's not
Speaker 2: suggesting the fear as a prophet, you know, it was
Speaker 2: very intelligently tailored before its purpose, you know. And of
Speaker 2: course Muslims were under tremendous pressure by the by the Communists,
Speaker 2: you know, they were, they were targeted as severely as
Speaker 2: as Orthodox Christians were, you know. In that also provided
Speaker 2: an avenue of ingress for this kind of discoursive affinity.
Speaker 2: And after as early as nineteen thirty six, the major
Speaker 2: transmitter of German propaganda to the Mediterranean and North Africa
Speaker 2: and the Middle East was in Zessen Go to the
Speaker 2: small town south of Berlin, and it housed at the
Speaker 2: time one of the most powerful shortwave transmitters in the world.
Speaker 2: It had been built for the transmit for the nineteen
Speaker 2: thirty six Olympics and after nineteenth as of nineteen thirty nine,
Speaker 2: the broadcast as zest and it brought. It had an
Speaker 2: Arabic broadcast every day, you know, intended for Turks, Iranians,
Speaker 2: Maslims who were then within UH the British Raj. There
Speaker 2: was a journalist, Gustav Buffinger, who headed up what was
Speaker 2: called the orient office of the radio station. They had UH.
Speaker 2: They had seventy or eighty permanent staff members a type
Speaker 2: as translators, announcers, and as the war went on, it
Speaker 2: broadcasts not only in standard Arabic, but in Berber and
Speaker 2: in some of these Caucasus languages too. There was an
Speaker 2: Egyptian emmigray named a Eunice Bari who was a big
Speaker 2: national socialist, and he was a permanent fixture at the
Speaker 2: Zessen radio station. He's he's a shadowy guy. He disappeared
Speaker 2: at some point, and it's pretty it's pretty clear if
Speaker 2: he wasn't murdered, he disappeared into the into the Middle
Speaker 2: East and and and probably took it a new identity
Speaker 2: and ended up similarly in the court of Nasser or
Speaker 2: or in Syria. But you know this in the Zessen
Speaker 2: uh the Oriental broadcast from Zessen. They they continued until
Speaker 2: just a month before the day of defeat, you know,
Speaker 2: in April ninety forty five. It was it was a
Speaker 2: major thing. We've got to get into the life and
Speaker 2: times of Mohammad Amino Husseini for this to be anything
Speaker 2: approaching complete discussions. So forgive me for changing gears to
Speaker 2: you know, like a biographical discussion. You know, of course
Speaker 2: Hussein he was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and he's
Speaker 2: a man who's very much light about and which comes
Speaker 2: with no surprise. Not only was he a Palestinian and
Speaker 2: a significant man in Sunni Islam, but you know, he
Speaker 2: also was allied to the Axis cause. So that's sort
Speaker 2: of a sort of a perfect storm characteristics that you know,
Speaker 2: make on a target for Slanders of the most hostile sort.
Speaker 2: He was pretty pretty much indisputably the most powerful leader
Speaker 2: of the Palestinian national movement during British rule over you
Speaker 2: know what, before it had been an Ottoman fief for
Speaker 2: those that don't know it, from night approximately nineteen seventeen
Speaker 2: until nineteen forty eight. That was the period of British
Speaker 2: rule over Palestine, and the Moutie was he reminds me
Speaker 2: very much a Sayid Kutev in his disposition. You know,
Speaker 2: people suggest he talked at both sides of his mouth.
Speaker 2: And the issue of violent partisan activity, You've got to
Speaker 2: understand the role of the mufti, Like a mofdie is
Speaker 2: a learned man in Islamic jurisprudence, and soon he's put
Speaker 2: a premium on interpretation and application of the law. So
Speaker 2: a moftie he's not a governor as we think of it,
Speaker 2: and he's not a priest. Either he's ah he's one
Speaker 2: part sort of a learned wise man within the tribe
Speaker 2: and one part intermediary between the congregation of the faithful
Speaker 2: and the outsider or secular authority. You know. And a
Speaker 2: lot of bo Zionists and a lot of court historians,
Speaker 2: either out of ignorance or because they're cow telling the
Speaker 2: the prejudice of the former, they claim, Oh, the the
Speaker 2: British invented the office of the Grand Mufti to have
Speaker 2: some sort of figurehead on the ground, you know, to
Speaker 2: to mitigate the difficulties of directly ruling over a Maslim population.
Speaker 2: That's not true, that's ridiculous. They British recognized him as
Speaker 2: the Grand Mouftie of Jerusalem and seeded authority over Islamic
Speaker 2: holy sites to him. But you're you're talking about a
Speaker 2: role and a title and a function of mufti that
Speaker 2: that spans a thousand years, okay. But to bring it
Speaker 2: back to some of the similarities in him and Kutev
Speaker 2: and another Islamic juris types, you know, it's there's a
Speaker 2: complex interplay between how a good Moslem relates to secular
Speaker 2: authority and how he manages a situation and is such
Speaker 2: as that that you know, the Palestinians were in vis
Speaker 2: a vis the occupation. They knew that some sort of
Speaker 2: race war was coming and that the Desionists wanted to
Speaker 2: ethnically cleanse them. They knew that British would be leaving
Speaker 2: at some point, and they knew that if a national
Speaker 2: state was going to be realized, they would have to
Speaker 2: make that divorce from British rule amicable, you know. And finally,
Speaker 2: a moved. He's not a general, and he's not a
Speaker 2: guerrilla fighter or a soldier. I mean his if he
Speaker 2: if he's called it, laid on his life for jihad.
Speaker 2: That's what he must do, and he will do if
Speaker 2: he's worthy of the of the title. But you know,
Speaker 2: he's it's not his role to devise military solutions under
Speaker 2: conditions of occupation or it's his job to keep the
Speaker 2: people safe, you know, and to interpret the laws laid
Speaker 2: down by the governing structure in a way that allows
Speaker 2: from Islamic life to be realized, you know, and beyond
Speaker 2: that too. And I'm not a Quran scholar, but so
Speaker 2: you know, I just want to get that out there.
Speaker 2: But when our revolt is permissible under the Quran. There's
Speaker 2: very discreet conditions for that, you know, even in Aposta,
Speaker 2: Occupier or Kellif if he protects Islam and allows Moslims
Speaker 2: to freely worship, it's not it's it's not just or
Speaker 2: righteous to overthrow him or to disobey him, you know.
Speaker 2: And so there's that obviously. You know, he's a he's
Speaker 2: a hate target of mainstream historians in the Anglo sphere,
Speaker 2: but even a lot of Maslums. Some people try and
Speaker 2: paint him as some sort of extremist, quasi national socialist.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, you you know, you a lot
Speaker 2: of passionate people behind the Palestinian cause. You know, they
Speaker 2: view him as some as some sort of machiavellian intriguer,
Speaker 2: you know, who didn't do enough to to protect Palestine.
Speaker 2: That's misguided in my opinion. You know, he was as
Speaker 2: partisan as he as was appropriate to the circumstance answers.
Speaker 2: And the fact that he the fact that he got
Speaker 2: a personal audience that off Hitler is pretty remarkable and
Speaker 2: the way that came about is fascinating too, and I'll
Speaker 2: get into that. But you know, the on the one hand,
Speaker 2: uh Hitler was cunning in who he would curate good
Speaker 2: offices with. But it's it wasn't some foregone conclusion Hitler
Speaker 2: would meet whoever the grand Moftie of Palestine was. Why
Speaker 2: would he? I mean basically the force of personality and
Speaker 2: the post persuasiveness of his polemic and his own sort
Speaker 2: of cunning and intriguing because he was something of an intriguer.
Speaker 2: That's not a slander, is what brought him into a
Speaker 2: face to face meeting with the fear. And that's pretty extraordinary,
Speaker 2: you know, whatever his flaws that have to be acknowledged,
Speaker 2: you know. And it's also to the circumstances on the
Speaker 2: ground in Palestine. I mean to say nothing of the warriors,
Speaker 2: but from the conclusion, from the fall of the Ottoman
Speaker 2: Empire until you know, the declaration of the design Is
Speaker 2: State and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, there was an
Speaker 2: incredibly unstable and not just fluid but actinically chaotic situation
Speaker 2: on the ground and the levant, you know, the the
Speaker 2: move These views changed in accordance with the security situation
Speaker 2: and the historical situation. You know, there was basically at
Speaker 2: least two distinct phases. You know, from nineteen seventeen when
Speaker 2: the British arrived until about nineteen thirty six, where he was,
Speaker 2: like say Kute, a kind of cautious, pragmatic traditional leader
Speaker 2: in the mofty role, you know, cooperating with British officials
Speaker 2: while uncompromisingly opposing Zionism. And then there was the exile phase.
Speaker 2: The moved. He was exiled after the Arab revolt, which
Speaker 2: was catastrophic, not his exile, I mean the outcome of
Speaker 2: the Arab revolt, but rightly or wrongly, he was swept
Speaker 2: up in the reaction of the crown to the revolutionary
Speaker 2: suait from on the ground, and you know, he was
Speaker 2: identified as a partisan actor, if if not an architect
Speaker 2: of the rebellion. But after he was understandably bitter being
Speaker 2: exiled from his home, you know. And again the Hussini
Speaker 2: family has a powerful and distinct heritage to this day.
Speaker 2: They remained important people in theater. But he became he
Speaker 2: became increasingly radical, and he gravitated ultimately to the axis,
Speaker 2: and he did become a partisan, you know, he ultimately
Speaker 2: he became essentially got lob Burger's right hand man and
Speaker 2: recruiting and mobilizing Masim populations to the vafiness. Now again too.
Speaker 2: You know Hussein he had been he'd come up through
Speaker 2: the Ottoman system. You know, those Siny family. They were
Speaker 2: the most prominent political Palestinian family who were the direct
Speaker 2: intermediary for generations between the Palestinians and the Ottoman overlords.
Speaker 2: You know. So, I mean exiling him was no small thing.
Speaker 2: And he wasn't He wasn't some upstart careerist or some
Speaker 2: random emam you know, who insinuated himself into a clerical
Speaker 2: and partisan role, going to a nascent and then fully
Speaker 2: realized crisis situation. You know. So that's all these things are,
Speaker 2: all these things are important to consider. What uh oh,
Speaker 2: I want to give me one second just to find
Speaker 2: my citation here. I'm sorry, I wanted to. I wanted
Speaker 2: to get into how other grand move he got an
Speaker 2: audience with Hitler. Another personage who was essential to the
Speaker 2: development of the Third Reich's relationship with the Grand Mufti
Speaker 2: but Islamic populations generally was a German officer named Wilhelm Hintersatz,
Speaker 2: also known as Harun al Rashid Bay. He was an
Speaker 2: SS standard and feure. He was born in Brandenburg and
Speaker 2: during World War Two he commanded the Eastern Moslem Division
Speaker 2: Osh Turkisher Waffenveband Division, which was this sort of cosmopolitan
Speaker 2: pastiche of Kazakhs, Turkmen as aeris you name it, but
Speaker 2: El Rashid. During the First World War he served on
Speaker 2: the general staff of the Ottoman Empire with Enver Pasha,
Speaker 2: who was one of the young Turks. For those in
Speaker 2: know the history, and during his time there, two things happened.
Speaker 2: He developed a strong admiration for Otto Lehman von Sanders
Speaker 2: who he met. Sanders was this Prussian aristocrat who was
Speaker 2: a non observant racial Jew who became this hero of
Speaker 2: the Ottoman Empire after ending his life there and and
Speaker 2: and and training their people and waging war when the
Speaker 2: Ottoman Empire went to war. In command the Turkish troops,
Speaker 2: l Rashid wrote a biography of Sanders. Later they had
Speaker 2: got published in Berlin in the thirties. That got a
Speaker 2: lot of fan fear. Anyway, during the war, during the
Speaker 2: Great War, he converted to his Lamb and then he
Speaker 2: that's when he became Haruin o Rashid Bay. After his conversion,
Speaker 2: he h he met up with as the Great War
Speaker 2: was ending, there was a whole glut of POWs from
Speaker 2: the Russian Empire at Wunsdorff Camp and he met he
Speaker 2: met a bunch of Moslim POWs who had been drafted
Speaker 2: into the Tzarist army, and they further schooled him in Islam,
Speaker 2: and he developed an interest also in the Russian way
Speaker 2: of war because looking forward, it was clear that, you know,
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union was going to be the the prime
Speaker 2: geostrategic actor, not just in Europe and not just contra Germany,
Speaker 2: but you know, across this entire planet. Because he was
Speaker 2: a an Aryan Mauslim and an experienced combat officer, and
Speaker 2: he was multi lingual, and he had the implicit trust
Speaker 2: of other Mauslims. He was recruited by Italian intelligence when
Speaker 2: they went to war in Ethiopia, you know, so he
Speaker 2: served il Duce and further augmented his credentials and guys
Speaker 2: who served under him, like Italians and Germans, you know,
Speaker 2: who said it was uncanny that they said he quote
Speaker 2: prayed without timidity in a mosque and quote he had
Speaker 2: the implicit trust of the native Mohammedians who saw him
Speaker 2: as a fellow believer. He also viewed the United Kingdom
Speaker 2: as potentially Germany's Achilles heel and he said, and this
Speaker 2: was even long before the ascendency of the War Party,
Speaker 2: but he said that the British Empire is going to
Speaker 2: have to be neutralized because they're going to make war
Speaker 2: on the Reich. And he said the key instrumentality of
Speaker 2: the Reich prevailing in that conflict is an alliance with
Speaker 2: with with with Moslims on you know, currently under hostile
Speaker 2: occupation by by the United Kingdom. He UH during Opera
Speaker 2: when our when operations Barbarosa kicked off or she he
Speaker 2: was a liaison officer with the Reich Main Security Office
Speaker 2: and the UH Eastern populations, you know, the the Moslim
Speaker 2: nations within Moslim nationalities within the Soviet Union and in
Speaker 2: that role the right Security Main Office of the s S,
Speaker 2: he made contact with the Grand Moufty hodg I mean
Speaker 2: hodj I mean el Hussini and this became a a
Speaker 2: close friendship between the two men and it developed into
Speaker 2: a deep alliance and l. Rashid and the Grand Moufti
Speaker 2: they began drawing up a plan. They believed there was
Speaker 2: there was two things happening here. This is one of
Speaker 2: the quagmire and the Balkans was emerging in earnest you know,
Speaker 2: which which was remained uh unmanageable for a substantial portion
Speaker 2: of the war. So Rashid and the Grand Movedi they
Speaker 2: believe that the ideal place to deploy a Moslim division
Speaker 2: would be in the Balkans, you know. And thus hand
Speaker 2: Jar came about thirteenth SS. But additionally, Bosnia was the
Speaker 2: Moslem heartland within Europe, and again, like we talked about
Speaker 2: in the first episode, there was a prestige that attended that,
Speaker 2: and plus the ecumenical clout of the Grand Mofie of Jerusalem,
Speaker 2: who's a very respected man, going to Sarajevo and addressing
Speaker 2: not just Bosniacs but all Maslims and particularly those behind
Speaker 2: the wire fighting communism. This uh, this, this, this was
Speaker 2: very politically savy a relative of the King of Egypt,
Speaker 2: King Faruk, a Prince Mansur El Rashid met him through
Speaker 2: the Mufti, and Mansour then began aiding in these recruitment efforts,
Speaker 2: and that that bolstered these propaganda efforts and uh the
Speaker 2: resulting formation. Ultimately, Hanjar was the first and it was
Speaker 2: also Skanderberg, which was Albanian Moslims and Kama. But the
Speaker 2: true Pan Islamic divisions size element was uh, the OUs
Speaker 2: Turk Waffen s S, Turkish Vaffen s S Eastern Turkic
Speaker 2: SS core. And again it was a it was turk Man,
Speaker 2: it was Kazakhs, it was a series, it was you
Speaker 2: know all Uh, the nationalities of the Soviet Union who
Speaker 2: were of the Mauslim faith were represented. I'm gonna time
Speaker 2: we got okay it Uh. Now what's really interesting here
Speaker 2: is that the other said key personage in the vaf
Speaker 2: SS with got Lot Burger. He was a waffen SS
Speaker 2: general as well as a higher SS and police leader,
Speaker 2: and he was responsible for the recruitment of non German
Speaker 2: nationalities into THESS. And he was impressed with what he
Speaker 2: saw from l. Rashid in the Mufti and Berger Uh
Speaker 2: decided that there had to be an effort to insinuate
Speaker 2: chaplains with a national socialist ideological education into Islamic formations.
Speaker 2: So the position of military imam was first introduced in
Speaker 2: ninety forty two. And this again is that that behast
Speaker 2: have got lobed Burger the command headquarters of the SS
Speaker 2: Eastern Turkish Division. They set up what am I to
Speaker 2: do an Imam training school, and it oversaw our religious
Speaker 2: practices and the four Maslim legions as they were designated.
Speaker 2: They assigned a mola at division level and emms and
Speaker 2: clerics down to platoon level. The overall uh legion mola
Speaker 2: was a for the isaacbai Johanni legion for example, it
Speaker 2: was Iman Pasha IV. The Turkestan legion. It was a
Speaker 2: molla you know, you to have, and so on down
Speaker 2: the line and legion and division molas. They were the
Speaker 2: equivalent of company commander. And these were fighting men. One
Speaker 2: of the most famous of the imm he was a
Speaker 2: Bosniak named Hallem Malich. He held the Iron Cross and
Speaker 2: slew of other awards. You know. So these these guys
Speaker 2: weren't just actors or stand in propaganda elements. And it
Speaker 2: also this was a level of religious formalized religious hierarchy
Speaker 2: and institutionalization, which basically it was there's there's just there's
Speaker 2: something brilliant about it. That's not how Maslim armies were organized.
Speaker 2: It was really assimilating Islamic cultural coding into a Wehrmacht model,
Speaker 2: and a lot of the recruits really took to that.
Speaker 2: There were some Maslim legions that were terrible, and there
Speaker 2: were some that were absolutely savage. But this almost ecclesiastical
Speaker 2: structure that one would have found in the company in
Speaker 2: the Thirty Years War, for example, you know, transposed to
Speaker 2: an Islamic cultural paradigm. Like when it worked when the
Speaker 2: mentioned material constituting the company, platoon or division in question,
Speaker 2: when it was game fighters, and when it was mentioned
Speaker 2: material suitable for soldiery, it was a it was it
Speaker 2: was a fantastic formula. And it also it that's did
Speaker 2: wonders for discipline and morale. It was just a question
Speaker 2: of spiritual council. There was a way of conveying to
Speaker 2: these recruits that you know, this is a this is
Speaker 2: a against Bolshevism and Jewry and being a good national
Speaker 2: socialist and being a good maslam or synonymous. And where
Speaker 2: those tendencies converge is in the person of the Islamic
Speaker 2: national socialist political soldier, exemplified by the Imam, you know,
Speaker 2: who was both a cleric and a warrior, you know,
Speaker 2: and who you know and and in and not just
Speaker 2: a commander in in the path of Jahad that we
Speaker 2: are on, but you know, also a spiritual guide the
Speaker 2: h ralphvan Hagendorf, who was a career UH Vermacht officer
Speaker 2: and an expert in military jurisprudence. In May ninety three
Speaker 2: he issued a formal recommendation that in Moslem formations, before
Speaker 2: of course martial a science punishment to a defendant, there's
Speaker 2: to be a consultation with the divisional mulla on the
Speaker 2: scope and severity of punishment to legitimize the military justice system.
Speaker 2: And this was huge too. Hagendorff recalled also that he said,
Speaker 2: often these emams, what they'd recommend was usually substantially more
Speaker 2: severe than what the secular coded German military justice and
Speaker 2: the Vermacht SS otherwise demanded. You know, so in practice,
Speaker 2: these emails acted as intermediaries with a European and Christian
Speaker 2: military justice system that nevertheless, you know, abided Islamic principles
Speaker 2: and its punitive aspect. And this this insinuated legitimacy into
Speaker 2: it that otherwise would be lacking. Round the same time,
Speaker 2: May ninety forty three, gottlab Burger he issued a formal
Speaker 2: decree from the main office. It was on the quote
Speaker 2: ideological spiritual education of them of the Maslim SS divisions,
Speaker 2: and it formally identified emovs as the most important transmitters
Speaker 2: of political and religious education within Mauslim formations. It made
Speaker 2: clear that the emphasis was to be on the common
Speaker 2: enemies of Germans and Moslims, you know, Judaism, quote, Anglo Americanism, communism, freemasonry, secularism,
Speaker 2: you know, and that these shared ideals including militancy and
Speaker 2: the Marshall ethos, the role and morality of tradition, of
Speaker 2: upright manliness, and you know, like all this is what
Speaker 2: brought together national socialists of different faiths, you know, whether
Speaker 2: they be the Protestant, Catholic or Moslem. And you know, again, Burger,
Speaker 2: the more I dive into I was I was researching
Speaker 2: his battle record in his career in the ss ohing
Speaker 2: to like a different, a related but distinguishable subject matter,
Speaker 2: and I he was just an amazing guy. You really
Speaker 2: only find footnotes about him as oh he was this
Speaker 2: big war criminal in this brute or he's described, you know,
Speaker 2: kind of similar terms to Martin Borman. It's just, oh,
Speaker 2: he was just a sort of creetiness function here, not
Speaker 2: not at all. And for a military man he he
Speaker 2: had he had a lot of deep esoteric interests and
Speaker 2: I think that has attracted those types frankly, you know,
Speaker 2: not not just romantics and dreamers, but there was Orientalism
Speaker 2: was literally coded into it, you know. I mean, that's
Speaker 2: why the Proud and Book on Genghis Khan was required
Speaker 2: reading at SS younger school. And of course Yaka and
Speaker 2: Piper wrote his senior thesis on the Proud and Book
Speaker 2: and Genghis Khan. But I mean, I think it's I
Speaker 2: Schopenhower was an Orientalist, and I you know, Chopenhower more
Speaker 2: than Nietzsche was the patron philosopher of the of the German, right,
Speaker 2: I think. But yeah, we're coming up on the hour, man,
Speaker 2: I I I hope people are finding this educational and interesting,
Speaker 2: and well we'll wrap it up the next episode, I promise. Awesome.
Speaker 1: Awesome, That's what I was gonna ask if we if
Speaker 1: you have another episode in this and is is that
Speaker 1: the up? Are you going to be getting into post war?
Speaker 2: I'd like to do war? Okay? Yeah, I mean I
Speaker 2: mean it's your show literally, like I mean, if you're
Speaker 2: a minimal of ad and of the subs, the main
Speaker 2: thing is that you're happy and the subs are finding
Speaker 2: this interesting, and then I promise we'll get back to
Speaker 2: the thirty Years War.
Speaker 1: No problem at all. Remind everybody go over to real
Speaker 1: Thomas seven seven seven dot substack dot com. It's probably
Speaker 1: the best way to connect to Thomas, and can go
Speaker 1: to his website Thomas seven seven seven dot com. The
Speaker 1: T and Thomas is a seven and basically you can
Speaker 1: connect to him everywhere from there. From those places, it's
Speaker 1: a firm thank you Thomas, appreciate you, Thank you.
Speaker 2: S