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Thomas is 24 00:01:53.719 --> 00:01:59.760 back for part two talking about the relationship between Islam 25 00:01:59.840 --> 00:02:04.760 and not only the Third Reich, but you know, you 26 00:02:04.920 --> 00:02:07.159 talked about the Kaiser years in the first part, so 27 00:02:07.680 --> 00:02:08.280 jump right in. 28 00:02:09.759 --> 00:02:14.879 Thanks. Yeah, And subsequently, I at least want to dedicate 29 00:02:14.919 --> 00:02:22.199 a brief addendum to discussing the post war resistance in 30 00:02:22.280 --> 00:02:30.280 exile and how that dovetailed with the cause of Palestinian 31 00:02:30.280 --> 00:02:35.280 liberation and Panslamic consciousness generally. I think we got into 32 00:02:35.319 --> 00:02:42.719 some of that when we were talking about the post 33 00:02:42.719 --> 00:02:47.240 war diasked for of National Socialists in exile. We were 34 00:02:47.240 --> 00:02:52.960 talking about how der Veg, which Johann von Leers as 35 00:02:53.039 --> 00:02:57.400 well as Otto Riemer and Hans Rudel was a major 36 00:02:58.759 --> 00:03:01.520 contributor to both in terms of his work product and 37 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:08.599 capital investment. And when Argentina was no longer a friendly 38 00:03:08.919 --> 00:03:12.520 environment for that sort of partisan activity owing to Perone 39 00:03:12.560 --> 00:03:18.719 being forced out of office, von Leers made his way 40 00:03:18.759 --> 00:03:24.520 to the Court of Nasser, and Egypt and Syria in 41 00:03:24.560 --> 00:03:30.560 particular were very much the loci of that kind of 42 00:03:30.639 --> 00:03:39.319 partisan activity, and that's significant because that plays into the 43 00:03:39.919 --> 00:03:46.120 not just the military culture of the region. On the 44 00:03:46.280 --> 00:03:53.599 Arab side, many of whom were trained by former National 45 00:03:53.639 --> 00:04:01.240 Socialists and WEAHRBAX veterans, but also impacted the culture of 46 00:04:01.280 --> 00:04:06.080 resistance in profound ways, and that's something that's overlooked. And 47 00:04:07.159 --> 00:04:13.560 we talked a bit about the odd dialectics of the 48 00:04:13.639 --> 00:04:19.879 DDR and the ROTE Army Fraction and Horse de Mahler. Obviously, 49 00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:23.680 the element he was representing when he was on the 50 00:04:23.720 --> 00:04:28.240 ground in the levant was that of the DDR and 51 00:04:28.279 --> 00:04:33.720 the Rote Army Fraction. But he did a lot to 52 00:04:33.759 --> 00:04:41.959 facilitate deep contact and operational interdependence with the Popular Front 53 00:04:41.959 --> 00:04:47.759 for the Liberation at Palestine and the PLO and things, 54 00:04:48.240 --> 00:04:53.959 and this all ties together, not just conceptually, but in 55 00:04:54.079 --> 00:04:58.639 terms of a common nucleus of operative fact. If that 56 00:04:58.720 --> 00:05:05.000 makes sense. I let me see. I tried. I always 57 00:05:05.000 --> 00:05:10.000 try to indicate in my outlines where I leave off, 58 00:05:10.040 --> 00:05:14.319 So if I'm repeating myself, please let me know I 59 00:05:14.519 --> 00:05:18.720 speaking of I raised mind lerisay, if memory serves. We 60 00:05:18.839 --> 00:05:22.680 left off talking about von Lears and some of his 61 00:05:22.800 --> 00:05:26.720 work early on and after the National Socialist Revolution, as 62 00:05:26.759 --> 00:05:30.920 early as ninety thirty four to thirty five, he was 63 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:42.079 attempting to create good offices with you know, European Moslims 64 00:05:42.120 --> 00:05:48.519 in the Balkans, as well as with the elements in 65 00:05:49.000 --> 00:05:55.360 Palestine and behind the the proverbial wire in the Soviet Union, 66 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:01.040 and von Lears very much had the ear of Gebels 67 00:06:01.399 --> 00:06:07.519 as time went on. Goebels, actually, through the Propaganda Ministry, 68 00:06:09.000 --> 00:06:13.600 he instructed the press to paint a positive image of Islam, 69 00:06:14.079 --> 00:06:17.360 or at least not a negative one. This long preceded 70 00:06:17.399 --> 00:06:25.639 the war, and he urged journalists under the the number 71 00:06:25.639 --> 00:06:34.000 of the Propaganda Ministry to give credit to the Islamic 72 00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:43.040 world as a cultural factor that plays a historically significant 73 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:53.959 role in the historical process, and that alliance between the 74 00:06:54.079 --> 00:07:04.319 national socialist cause and Pan Islamism and the liberation of 75 00:07:04.360 --> 00:07:16.079 the Holy Land is you know, completely commensurate with and 76 00:07:16.439 --> 00:07:22.439 a component of a national socialist of health politique, you know. 77 00:07:22.639 --> 00:07:27.319 And this is important for a few reasons. It says 78 00:07:27.399 --> 00:07:31.639 light not just on the deep ideological culture and philosophical 79 00:07:31.680 --> 00:07:38.959 disposition of national socialism its standard bears, but also it's 80 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:41.480 yet another rebuttal of the claim that the Third Reich 81 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:48.560 was this provincial state that didn't understand the cultural and 82 00:07:48.639 --> 00:07:54.079 strategic situation outside of immediate battle theaters. And that's preposterous 83 00:07:54.079 --> 00:08:00.519 for a lot of reasons, many of which are obvious. 84 00:08:02.160 --> 00:08:08.839 Germany was a very cosmopolitan country, not in the modern 85 00:08:08.839 --> 00:08:15.399 pejorative sense, I mean in the the nineteenth and early 86 00:08:15.439 --> 00:08:24.000 twentieth century European sense. Von Leers, of course to he 87 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:28.519 was a linguist. He was fluent in something like thirteen 88 00:08:28.560 --> 00:08:34.240 different dialects. He was a cultural anthropologist, I mean what 89 00:08:34.279 --> 00:08:40.480 we consider a cultural anthropologist. He was a philologist. He 90 00:08:40.559 --> 00:08:46.080 was an expert on Islam and Oriental societies, and he 91 00:08:46.159 --> 00:08:51.879 was very much a right Hegelian. And he wrote an essay, 92 00:08:52.039 --> 00:08:58.879 probably the most famous essay, and it's fairly accessible online. 93 00:08:59.039 --> 00:09:01.840 I don't know if you can find a translation that's 94 00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:13.519 not corrupted by Ai slap, but it was titled Judaism 95 00:09:13.519 --> 00:09:22.279 and Islam is Opposites, and in Hegelian terms, Von Leers 96 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:27.440 viewed Islam as the dialectical antithesis and Judaism and a 97 00:09:27.519 --> 00:09:38.840 splendid repudiation of it. And he said that that's one 98 00:09:38.879 --> 00:09:45.840 of the reasons why the Caliphate wasn't subverted by a 99 00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:52.279 hostile Jewish element within, because these were calcit truant people 100 00:09:52.320 --> 00:10:02.399 were locked behind ghetto walls and every aspect of the 101 00:10:02.480 --> 00:10:09.960 Islamic cultural, social and legal code precluded them mobilizing in 102 00:10:09.960 --> 00:10:18.240 a possible capacity to wage war from within by subject 103 00:10:18.279 --> 00:10:25.279 huge or any other way. And whether anybody accepts that 104 00:10:28.720 --> 00:10:34.960 perspective or not, or think that its merit within the 105 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:44.279 Hegelian paradigm or without, it's a fascinating theory. And I 106 00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:48.039 highly recommend any of von Leer's essays that you can 107 00:10:48.159 --> 00:10:53.960 run down. I mean, admittedly have got a discrete interest 108 00:10:54.000 --> 00:10:58.519 in the subject matter and it's relevant to my own research, 109 00:10:58.919 --> 00:11:06.960 but I aside from that, I believe it's essentially having 110 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:10.159 a complete understanding and conceptual terms of the Third Reich 111 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:16.080 and the national socialist ideological culture. And von Leers wasn't 112 00:11:16.960 --> 00:11:25.960 alone in his overall perspectives. Ferdinand Klaus he was. He 113 00:11:26.080 --> 00:11:35.639 was a well regarded racial theorist, and he was an 114 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:43.799 associate of Hans Gunther Hans of Kate Gunther, who was 115 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:49.759 another well known racialist. Both these guys that are profile 116 00:11:49.879 --> 00:11:56.440 comparable to Houston, Stewart Chamberlain or Lowthrop Stoddard. For comparison, 117 00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:06.360 Klaus's book Ross un Ross und Seal, Race and Soul 118 00:12:08.279 --> 00:12:13.639 was for all practical purpose is a best seller. If 119 00:12:14.840 --> 00:12:28.799 memory serves and for different reasons the Dad that he cited, 120 00:12:29.960 --> 00:12:34.480 because again he Klaus and going through both had very 121 00:12:34.559 --> 00:12:43.200 much of a materialist view of race, but they were 122 00:12:43.200 --> 00:12:48.399 in substantial agreement with Julius Evil and Renee gain On 123 00:12:49.919 --> 00:12:58.879 and suggesting a basic affinity between the master cast stradom 124 00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:04.639 of the Nordic race and that of you know, the Caliphate. 125 00:13:06.120 --> 00:13:17.080 In other words, Islam was emergent and curated by the 126 00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:24.200 racial overcast within Daryl Islam. And that's one of the 127 00:13:24.240 --> 00:13:34.840 reasons that's so splendidly tailored to this integral concept of 128 00:13:34.960 --> 00:13:45.279 sovereignty where every man is in his place and the 129 00:13:45.399 --> 00:13:56.440 cast system remains undisturbed because it emerges from the natural 130 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:07.679 hierarchy within you know, the Oriental paradigm from where it 131 00:14:07.720 --> 00:14:16.440 was emergent. Klaus wrote reports for the SS Head Office 132 00:14:18.120 --> 00:14:30.440 on political affairs and strategic matters relating to anthropological considerations, 133 00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:41.080 and he wrote he wrote a paper that was submitted 134 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:49.440 titled Preparation of an Operation for winning over the Islamic Peoples, 135 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:54.759 you know, and within it he reflected on the good 136 00:14:54.840 --> 00:15:00.240 offices between the kaiser Reich and the Ottoman Empire. He 137 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:04.320 talked about the warrior heritage of many of the step 138 00:15:04.399 --> 00:15:11.000 people who were, you know, very very much culturally Muslim, 139 00:15:12.240 --> 00:15:20.039 and he said it's important to emphasize similarities and Felton 140 00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:26.399 Schaum between national socialists, doctor and ethics and the Quran, 141 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:40.159 you know, and that's very interesting. And to be clear, 142 00:15:42.919 --> 00:15:50.440 Klaus wasn't suggesting that national socialism was intended as some 143 00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:53.159 sort of aristox religion. I know that that's something a 144 00:15:53.159 --> 00:16:01.159 lot of anti fascists like to claim, and Bandy he 145 00:16:01.240 --> 00:16:05.120 was acknowledging that the Islamic faith structure is very very 146 00:16:05.159 --> 00:16:12.080 different than religion in the occident. It's the integral aspects 147 00:16:12.159 --> 00:16:16.840 of it that are significance, because Islam is a political 148 00:16:16.879 --> 00:16:28.559 doctrine and an ethical disposition as well as the theological system, 149 00:16:28.679 --> 00:16:34.600 and that's what's key. And if you're a Hegelian, which 150 00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:42.320 essentially every everybody associated with the Third Reich was to 151 00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:51.600 some degree or another, you view the development of religiosity 152 00:16:52.519 --> 00:16:56.639 as being very much bound up with the dialectical process 153 00:16:56.720 --> 00:17:06.880 within the relevant culture and the variables that the historical 154 00:17:06.960 --> 00:17:16.279 variables that created Islam were very congress with those that 155 00:17:17.920 --> 00:17:29.559 gave rise to national socialism, particularly the perennial existential ross 156 00:17:29.640 --> 00:17:37.119 and Kreeg against the Jew So it's not really a stretch, 157 00:17:38.359 --> 00:17:44.160 you know. And again you've you've got to understand the 158 00:17:44.200 --> 00:17:49.400 conceptual parameters of the time and place that these ideas 159 00:17:49.400 --> 00:18:01.680 are being postulated. There was a unique receptivity, actual potential, 160 00:18:03.640 --> 00:18:06.240 you know, and a lot of people who otherwise know 161 00:18:06.319 --> 00:18:17.680 the subject matter are overly dismissive of that. Interestingly, Klaus 162 00:18:19.559 --> 00:18:25.839 after the war he abandoned the biological racialism. He remained 163 00:18:25.880 --> 00:18:30.279 an orientalist academic, and he ultimately converted to his lamb. 164 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:41.920 That was the case with Carl Wolff, the SS adjutants 165 00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:51.240 to the permanent SS adjutant to the Fear. Later he 166 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.400 he commanded troops in the field and he was highly decorated. 167 00:18:55.440 --> 00:19:00.359 He wasn't just a parade ground soldier, but he he's 168 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:06.680 a fascinating guy. In David Irving's True Himmler, which is 169 00:19:06.680 --> 00:19:15.200 a great book, I understand some people's lament that you 170 00:19:15.240 --> 00:19:17.680 can tell that it was intended to be two volumes, 171 00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:23.920 and you know, the infirmity of old age that strikes 172 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:29.400 us all down, struck Irving before you complete it. But 173 00:19:29.960 --> 00:19:34.079 what there is of it is just fantastic. But anyway, 174 00:19:34.400 --> 00:19:42.480 Carl Wolf's testimony is cited extensively. Anyway, Carl Wolf's daughter, 175 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:53.279 Fatima Grimm, she married that check Bosniac Moslem guy, and 176 00:19:53.359 --> 00:19:58.519 she converted to his lamb and she became an islam 177 00:19:58.559 --> 00:20:04.240 and theologian. And then she wrote sensibly on jihad is 178 00:20:04.279 --> 00:20:19.160 a concept. And I realized Klaus and Fatima grim and 179 00:20:19.240 --> 00:20:24.559 people like I'm at Hubert, it was a fascinating personage. 180 00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:27.839 I believe Hubert would have been indicted after nine to 181 00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:33.680 eleven had he not died, but that's a subject or 182 00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:38.440 a discussion for another day. I realize these people are outliers. 183 00:20:38.440 --> 00:20:44.079 I'm not suggesting that it's normative or some sort of 184 00:20:44.160 --> 00:20:52.279 natural progression within German cultural dialectics to convert to Islam. 185 00:20:52.680 --> 00:20:54.720 I've got too much respect for Islam, but I could 186 00:20:54.799 --> 00:21:00.160 never imagine converting to Islam. But the exception of somebody 187 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.519 like Renet Ginon, who truly went native, I mean that, 188 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:12.039 you know, living among Moslims and living in the Orient 189 00:21:12.759 --> 00:21:16.400 for essentially his whole life, that's a different phenomenon. However, 190 00:21:17.799 --> 00:21:25.599 with those qualifiers, I there is some sort of internal logic, 191 00:21:26.119 --> 00:21:29.519 especially considered the catastrophe of the Day of Defeat and 192 00:21:29.559 --> 00:21:34.599 the subsequent occupation. There is some sort of internal logic 193 00:21:34.680 --> 00:21:44.039 to the peculiar spiritual journey of von Leers, of Fatima, 194 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:53.079 Graham of Klaus. I believe, but I'm sure the rebuttal 195 00:21:53.119 --> 00:22:07.400 of that is that that's speculation the U And there 196 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:12.200 was others too. There was other academic writers Schmidtz, Lindemann, 197 00:22:13.000 --> 00:22:20.200 Reichhardt who posited not just an alliance at gew strategic convenience, 198 00:22:20.279 --> 00:22:25.319 but an ideological affinity for between Islam and the national 199 00:22:25.359 --> 00:22:36.079 social state on Hegelian grounds. Lindenman went as far as 200 00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:39.680 to say that and some of the propaganda that he 201 00:22:39.880 --> 00:22:47.279 drafted intended for Islamic societies. They said, the fear prinzip 202 00:22:47.720 --> 00:22:55.720 is the occidental variant of, you know, the same the 203 00:22:55.720 --> 00:23:05.119 principle that animates the caliphate, you know. And Raichar knew 204 00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:09.960 the Quran very well, so he was able to cite 205 00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:15.640 passages that conveyed the notion that Muhammad was the fear 206 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:22.200 of the believers and subsequently the caliph represented that role, 207 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.799 you know. And but he made it clear that the 208 00:23:27.880 --> 00:23:30.160 fear is comparable to the Mahdi. You know, He's not 209 00:23:30.400 --> 00:23:33.680 suggesting the fear as a prophet, you know, it was 210 00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:41.960 very intelligently tailored before its purpose, you know. And of 211 00:23:42.000 --> 00:23:50.359 course Muslims were under tremendous pressure by the by the Communists, 212 00:23:51.160 --> 00:23:53.279 you know, they were, they were targeted as severely as 213 00:23:53.519 --> 00:24:06.000 as Orthodox Christians were, you know. In that also provided 214 00:24:06.039 --> 00:24:13.359 an avenue of ingress for this kind of discoursive affinity. 215 00:24:14.480 --> 00:24:26.599 And after as early as nineteen thirty six, the major 216 00:24:26.680 --> 00:24:31.759 transmitter of German propaganda to the Mediterranean and North Africa 217 00:24:31.759 --> 00:24:38.400 and the Middle East was in Zessen Go to the 218 00:24:38.440 --> 00:24:43.960 small town south of Berlin, and it housed at the 219 00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:48.160 time one of the most powerful shortwave transmitters in the world. 220 00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:51.680 It had been built for the transmit for the nineteen 221 00:24:51.680 --> 00:24:58.559 thirty six Olympics and after nineteenth as of nineteen thirty nine, 222 00:24:59.119 --> 00:25:02.799 the broadcast as zest and it brought. It had an 223 00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:11.759 Arabic broadcast every day, you know, intended for Turks, Iranians, 224 00:25:14.480 --> 00:25:23.680 Maslims who were then within UH the British Raj. There 225 00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:32.359 was a journalist, Gustav Buffinger, who headed up what was 226 00:25:32.359 --> 00:25:38.160 called the orient office of the radio station. They had UH. 227 00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:44.680 They had seventy or eighty permanent staff members a type 228 00:25:44.720 --> 00:25:51.839 as translators, announcers, and as the war went on, it 229 00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:55.200 broadcasts not only in standard Arabic, but in Berber and 230 00:25:55.240 --> 00:26:02.839 in some of these Caucasus languages too. There was an 231 00:26:02.920 --> 00:26:08.920 Egyptian emmigray named a Eunice Bari who was a big 232 00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:16.240 national socialist, and he was a permanent fixture at the 233 00:26:16.359 --> 00:26:22.920 Zessen radio station. He's he's a shadowy guy. He disappeared 234 00:26:22.960 --> 00:26:27.440 at some point, and it's pretty it's pretty clear if 235 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:34.480 he wasn't murdered, he disappeared into the into the Middle 236 00:26:34.519 --> 00:26:37.160 East and and and probably took it a new identity 237 00:26:37.200 --> 00:26:40.599 and ended up similarly in the court of Nasser or 238 00:26:40.920 --> 00:26:47.720 or in Syria. But you know this in the Zessen 239 00:26:47.880 --> 00:26:54.319 uh the Oriental broadcast from Zessen. They they continued until 240 00:26:55.920 --> 00:26:58.559 just a month before the day of defeat, you know, 241 00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:02.079 in April ninety forty five. It was it was a 242 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:10.359 major thing. We've got to get into the life and 243 00:27:10.400 --> 00:27:15.440 times of Mohammad Amino Husseini for this to be anything 244 00:27:15.440 --> 00:27:20.039 approaching complete discussions. So forgive me for changing gears to 245 00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:25.400 you know, like a biographical discussion. You know, of course 246 00:27:26.359 --> 00:27:29.799 Hussein he was the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, and he's 247 00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:33.359 a man who's very much light about and which comes 248 00:27:33.359 --> 00:27:38.440 with no surprise. Not only was he a Palestinian and 249 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:44.440 a significant man in Sunni Islam, but you know, he 250 00:27:44.559 --> 00:27:49.200 also was allied to the Axis cause. So that's sort 251 00:27:49.240 --> 00:27:54.079 of a sort of a perfect storm characteristics that you know, 252 00:27:55.880 --> 00:28:03.720 make on a target for Slanders of the most hostile sort. 253 00:28:05.240 --> 00:28:12.920 He was pretty pretty much indisputably the most powerful leader 254 00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:19.680 of the Palestinian national movement during British rule over you 255 00:28:19.720 --> 00:28:22.759 know what, before it had been an Ottoman fief for 256 00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:27.359 those that don't know it, from night approximately nineteen seventeen 257 00:28:28.079 --> 00:28:32.039 until nineteen forty eight. That was the period of British 258 00:28:32.119 --> 00:28:40.920 rule over Palestine, and the Moutie was he reminds me 259 00:28:41.960 --> 00:28:47.799 very much a Sayid Kutev in his disposition. You know, 260 00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:54.440 people suggest he talked at both sides of his mouth. 261 00:28:54.559 --> 00:28:59.079 And the issue of violent partisan activity, You've got to 262 00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:03.680 understand the role of the mufti, Like a mofdie is 263 00:29:03.680 --> 00:29:10.440 a learned man in Islamic jurisprudence, and soon he's put 264 00:29:10.480 --> 00:29:15.480 a premium on interpretation and application of the law. So 265 00:29:15.599 --> 00:29:20.440 a moftie he's not a governor as we think of it, 266 00:29:20.599 --> 00:29:28.000 and he's not a priest. Either he's ah he's one 267 00:29:28.079 --> 00:29:31.880 part sort of a learned wise man within the tribe 268 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:41.000 and one part intermediary between the congregation of the faithful 269 00:29:41.160 --> 00:29:47.559 and the outsider or secular authority. You know. And a 270 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:50.640 lot of bo Zionists and a lot of court historians, 271 00:29:50.680 --> 00:29:54.400 either out of ignorance or because they're cow telling the 272 00:29:56.599 --> 00:30:00.400 the prejudice of the former, they claim, Oh, the the 273 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:03.359 British invented the office of the Grand Mufti to have 274 00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:08.599 some sort of figurehead on the ground, you know, to 275 00:30:09.799 --> 00:30:18.400 to mitigate the difficulties of directly ruling over a Maslim population. 276 00:30:18.519 --> 00:30:24.559 That's not true, that's ridiculous. They British recognized him as 277 00:30:24.680 --> 00:30:29.720 the Grand Mouftie of Jerusalem and seeded authority over Islamic 278 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:33.680 holy sites to him. But you're you're talking about a 279 00:30:33.920 --> 00:30:37.319 role and a title and a function of mufti that 280 00:30:37.480 --> 00:30:43.720 that spans a thousand years, okay. But to bring it 281 00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:48.680 back to some of the similarities in him and Kutev 282 00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:58.240 and another Islamic juris types, you know, it's there's a 283 00:30:58.279 --> 00:31:05.279 complex interplay between how a good Moslem relates to secular 284 00:31:05.359 --> 00:31:11.519 authority and how he manages a situation and is such 285 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:16.279 as that that you know, the Palestinians were in vis 286 00:31:16.319 --> 00:31:18.960 a vis the occupation. They knew that some sort of 287 00:31:19.160 --> 00:31:22.480 race war was coming and that the Desionists wanted to 288 00:31:22.519 --> 00:31:25.960 ethnically cleanse them. They knew that British would be leaving 289 00:31:26.039 --> 00:31:30.680 at some point, and they knew that if a national 290 00:31:30.839 --> 00:31:36.440 state was going to be realized, they would have to 291 00:31:37.480 --> 00:31:42.680 make that divorce from British rule amicable, you know. And finally, 292 00:31:45.799 --> 00:31:47.640 a moved. He's not a general, and he's not a 293 00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:54.279 guerrilla fighter or a soldier. I mean his if he 294 00:31:55.279 --> 00:31:58.680 if he's called it, laid on his life for jihad. 295 00:31:59.079 --> 00:32:01.400 That's what he must do, and he will do if 296 00:32:01.400 --> 00:32:07.079 he's worthy of the of the title. But you know, 297 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:12.720 he's it's not his role to devise military solutions under 298 00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:16.799 conditions of occupation or it's his job to keep the 299 00:32:16.880 --> 00:32:23.720 people safe, you know, and to interpret the laws laid 300 00:32:23.799 --> 00:32:27.359 down by the governing structure in a way that allows 301 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:30.680 from Islamic life to be realized, you know, and beyond 302 00:32:30.759 --> 00:32:34.160 that too. And I'm not a Quran scholar, but so 303 00:32:35.920 --> 00:32:37.759 you know, I just want to get that out there. 304 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:45.759 But when our revolt is permissible under the Quran. There's 305 00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.400 very discreet conditions for that, you know, even in Aposta, 306 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:58.920 Occupier or Kellif if he protects Islam and allows Moslims 307 00:32:58.960 --> 00:33:03.279 to freely worship, it's not it's it's not just or 308 00:33:03.359 --> 00:33:08.319 righteous to overthrow him or to disobey him, you know. 309 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:15.720 And so there's that obviously. You know, he's a he's 310 00:33:15.759 --> 00:33:20.640 a hate target of mainstream historians in the Anglo sphere, 311 00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:23.720 but even a lot of Maslums. Some people try and 312 00:33:23.799 --> 00:33:27.240 paint him as some sort of extremist, quasi national socialist. 313 00:33:27.599 --> 00:33:30.640 On the other hand, you you know, you a lot 314 00:33:30.680 --> 00:33:36.039 of passionate people behind the Palestinian cause. You know, they 315 00:33:36.119 --> 00:33:42.640 view him as some as some sort of machiavellian intriguer, 316 00:33:43.000 --> 00:33:47.400 you know, who didn't do enough to to protect Palestine. 317 00:33:47.640 --> 00:33:53.920 That's misguided in my opinion. You know, he was as 318 00:33:54.000 --> 00:34:00.359 partisan as he as was appropriate to the circumstance answers. 319 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:05.160 And the fact that he the fact that he got 320 00:34:05.200 --> 00:34:07.839 a personal audience that off Hitler is pretty remarkable and 321 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:10.800 the way that came about is fascinating too, and I'll 322 00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:16.039 get into that. But you know, the on the one hand, 323 00:34:16.199 --> 00:34:26.400 uh Hitler was cunning in who he would curate good 324 00:34:26.440 --> 00:34:31.920 offices with. But it's it wasn't some foregone conclusion Hitler 325 00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:34.760 would meet whoever the grand Moftie of Palestine was. Why 326 00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:41.280 would he? I mean basically the force of personality and 327 00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:45.719 the post persuasiveness of his polemic and his own sort 328 00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:49.119 of cunning and intriguing because he was something of an intriguer. 329 00:34:49.239 --> 00:34:53.239 That's not a slander, is what brought him into a 330 00:34:53.320 --> 00:34:57.119 face to face meeting with the fear. And that's pretty extraordinary, 331 00:34:57.880 --> 00:35:01.440 you know, whatever his flaws that have to be acknowledged, 332 00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:12.679 you know. And it's also to the circumstances on the 333 00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:16.039 ground in Palestine. I mean to say nothing of the warriors, 334 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:21.320 but from the conclusion, from the fall of the Ottoman 335 00:35:21.400 --> 00:35:30.559 Empire until you know, the declaration of the design Is 336 00:35:30.679 --> 00:35:34.480 State and the ethnic cleansing of Palestine, there was an 337 00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:38.960 incredibly unstable and not just fluid but actinically chaotic situation 338 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:43.239 on the ground and the levant, you know, the the 339 00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:50.079 move These views changed in accordance with the security situation 340 00:35:50.400 --> 00:35:57.639 and the historical situation. You know, there was basically at 341 00:35:57.719 --> 00:36:05.159 least two distinct phases. You know, from nineteen seventeen when 342 00:36:05.199 --> 00:36:12.800 the British arrived until about nineteen thirty six, where he was, 343 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:21.880 like say Kute, a kind of cautious, pragmatic traditional leader 344 00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:25.679 in the mofty role, you know, cooperating with British officials 345 00:36:26.440 --> 00:36:34.239 while uncompromisingly opposing Zionism. And then there was the exile phase. 346 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:39.480 The moved. He was exiled after the Arab revolt, which 347 00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:44.639 was catastrophic, not his exile, I mean the outcome of 348 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:49.719 the Arab revolt, but rightly or wrongly, he was swept 349 00:36:49.880 --> 00:36:59.760 up in the reaction of the crown to the revolutionary 350 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.000 suait from on the ground, and you know, he was 351 00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:09.800 identified as a partisan actor, if if not an architect 352 00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:20.480 of the rebellion. But after he was understandably bitter being 353 00:37:20.599 --> 00:37:27.440 exiled from his home, you know. And again the Hussini 354 00:37:28.440 --> 00:37:34.840 family has a powerful and distinct heritage to this day. 355 00:37:36.559 --> 00:37:44.000 They remained important people in theater. But he became he 356 00:37:44.119 --> 00:37:50.320 became increasingly radical, and he gravitated ultimately to the axis, 357 00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:58.000 and he did become a partisan, you know, he ultimately 358 00:37:59.000 --> 00:38:07.280 he became essentially got lob Burger's right hand man and 359 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:22.400 recruiting and mobilizing Masim populations to the vafiness. Now again too. 360 00:38:27.440 --> 00:38:29.760 You know Hussein he had been he'd come up through 361 00:38:29.760 --> 00:38:37.480 the Ottoman system. You know, those Siny family. They were 362 00:38:38.199 --> 00:38:45.840 the most prominent political Palestinian family who were the direct 363 00:38:45.880 --> 00:38:52.679 intermediary for generations between the Palestinians and the Ottoman overlords. 364 00:38:56.239 --> 00:38:59.920 You know. So, I mean exiling him was no small thing. 365 00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:09.559 And he wasn't He wasn't some upstart careerist or some 366 00:39:10.199 --> 00:39:18.519 random emam you know, who insinuated himself into a clerical 367 00:39:18.639 --> 00:39:24.119 and partisan role, going to a nascent and then fully 368 00:39:24.599 --> 00:39:31.760 realized crisis situation. You know. So that's all these things are, 369 00:39:34.360 --> 00:39:41.280 all these things are important to consider. What uh oh, 370 00:39:41.440 --> 00:39:45.199 I want to give me one second just to find 371 00:39:45.239 --> 00:39:54.800 my citation here. I'm sorry, I wanted to. I wanted 372 00:39:54.800 --> 00:40:01.039 to get into how other grand move he got an 373 00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:09.000 audience with Hitler. Another personage who was essential to the 374 00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:16.599 development of the Third Reich's relationship with the Grand Mufti 375 00:40:16.760 --> 00:40:26.119 but Islamic populations generally was a German officer named Wilhelm Hintersatz, 376 00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:35.559 also known as Harun al Rashid Bay. He was an 377 00:40:35.760 --> 00:40:40.840 SS standard and feure. He was born in Brandenburg and 378 00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:49.440 during World War Two he commanded the Eastern Moslem Division 379 00:40:51.400 --> 00:41:00.880 Osh Turkisher Waffenveband Division, which was this sort of cosmopolitan 380 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:14.320 pastiche of Kazakhs, Turkmen as aeris you name it, but 381 00:41:16.519 --> 00:41:23.679 El Rashid. During the First World War he served on 382 00:41:23.800 --> 00:41:29.360 the general staff of the Ottoman Empire with Enver Pasha, 383 00:41:30.599 --> 00:41:33.039 who was one of the young Turks. For those in 384 00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:39.239 know the history, and during his time there, two things happened. 385 00:41:39.280 --> 00:41:43.960 He developed a strong admiration for Otto Lehman von Sanders 386 00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:50.719 who he met. Sanders was this Prussian aristocrat who was 387 00:41:50.760 --> 00:41:57.679 a non observant racial Jew who became this hero of 388 00:41:57.760 --> 00:42:01.960 the Ottoman Empire after ending his life there and and 389 00:42:02.519 --> 00:42:09.159 and and training their people and waging war when the 390 00:42:09.199 --> 00:42:12.119 Ottoman Empire went to war. In command the Turkish troops, 391 00:42:13.760 --> 00:42:16.960 l Rashid wrote a biography of Sanders. Later they had 392 00:42:17.400 --> 00:42:19.719 got published in Berlin in the thirties. That got a 393 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:24.039 lot of fan fear. Anyway, during the war, during the 394 00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:26.719 Great War, he converted to his Lamb and then he 395 00:42:26.920 --> 00:42:36.800 that's when he became Haruin o Rashid Bay. After his conversion, 396 00:42:39.000 --> 00:42:45.519 he h he met up with as the Great War 397 00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:52.320 was ending, there was a whole glut of POWs from 398 00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:57.440 the Russian Empire at Wunsdorff Camp and he met he 399 00:42:57.559 --> 00:43:02.360 met a bunch of Moslim POWs who had been drafted 400 00:43:02.440 --> 00:43:11.440 into the Tzarist army, and they further schooled him in Islam, 401 00:43:12.679 --> 00:43:15.920