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Speaker 1: The Bible doesn't say if you're a Protestant or Catholic

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or art actually will be saved.

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Speaker 2: It says you must be born again.

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Speaker 3: Now, But what does that mean because the rest of

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the New Testament texts talk about that being baptism.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, born again is we have three kinds.

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Speaker 2: Of death in the Bible.

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Speaker 1: When is it physical death, spiritual death, and eternal death

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which is also called second death?

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Speaker 3: So that what does it have to do with baptism?

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Speaker 2: What I just said, baptism is an.

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Speaker 3: Outer you're just repeating Protestant Baptist doctrines. And I'm telling

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you in Titus three five it's called the washing of

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the labor regeneration.

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Speaker 2: Yes, but that's in this speed's what happens.

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Speaker 3: How do you know that you're just asserting that when

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Paul doesn't make that distinction. How do you know that

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every time Paul talks about baptism is quote spiritual, Well.

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Speaker 1: The baptism was an outer confession.

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Speaker 3: You're just restating the question I'm asking you, how do

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you know that that's what Paul means and all those

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passages about baptism.

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Speaker 2: Because it's all over the Bible.

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Speaker 3: It's so the answer is it's all over when that's

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the thing I'm asking you. So, in other words, so,

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why what are you for the third time going to

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just tell me your interpretation again?

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Speaker 1: No, it's not my Interpretation's what the Bible says.

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Speaker 3: That's what you're saying. That's what the Bible says, and

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I'm saying no. In John three, I think Jesus is

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talking about water baptism, and that's why Acts two Peter says,

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repent and be baptized for the remission of sins? Is

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it water baptism in Acts two thirty eight thirty nine.

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Speaker 2: What the bone again happens that repair?

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Speaker 3: Is it water baptism in Acts two thirty eight thirty nine. Yes,

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oh it is. But that's where he says, is the

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remission of sins?

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Speaker 1: No, the remission of sins it doesn't happen with washing.

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Speaker 2: In the water.

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Speaker 3: It literally says that in X two thirty eight thirty nine.

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Speaker 1: No, nobody gets saved by being baptizing the water.

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Speaker 3: That's your Yeah, please keep asserting the Protestant doctrine, which

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is what I'm challenging, which you said it is water

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baptism in actually thirty eight and thirty nine, and he

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says that that is the remission of sentence.

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Speaker 2: But listen, when I became a believer, I.

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Speaker 3: This is your subjective interpretation. I don't. It doesn't matter

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what you your personal experience was.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm telling you right now there are tens of

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thousands of Iranians who have become believers in Jesus and

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they are not able to get baptized because in Iran

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there's not possibility to get arrested or but they love

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the Lord and they're not even baptizing, but they're born again.

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Speaker 2: They're full of the Holy space.

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Speaker 3: Let's just lag in the question that I mean. They

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may be in God's mind and that's fine, but the

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normative means by which we do this is said to

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be multiple times throughout the New Testament, actual baptism. So

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you're just assuming Protestantism, which is the very thing that

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I'm questioning about. So how do you prove Protestantism to me?

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Speaker 1: Well, as I said, I'm not a Protestant, was a basically.

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Speaker 3: You are a Protestant. Why are you acting like you're not? Okay, evangelical?

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Is that better?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So basically, what happened with the Protestantism Martin Luther. It

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was a protest against Catholic system of you know, justification

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by works and punaware on faith plus works. And what

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all Protestant was was, no, we're justified again.

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Speaker 3: I don't need to I know the history of the

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pros and Reformation. I'm not trying to be rude to you,

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but I'm asking you about evangelicalism, which is what you're

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part of, and I'm asking you why should we accept evangelicalism.

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Speaker 2: Again, It's not evangelicalism.

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Speaker 3: Or being dishonest because you just admitted that you weren't

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evangelical like two minutes ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, evangelical What is evangelical?

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Speaker 2: The Christians.

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to argue with you over terms. Where

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do you get your Bible from?

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Speaker 2: What do we? What are we?

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Speaker 3: Where do you get the Bible from? Did it just

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fall out of the air into Iran?

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Speaker 2: No? I actually you run is illegal to a Bible.

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So I don't live in your own now.

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Speaker 1: I live in Israel. But when I when I became

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believer it, I started for a Bible for three months.

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Speaker 3: We're moving on.

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Speaker 4: So you made a video a while bag talking about

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Protestism and criticizing them a bit, and this open debate,

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perform plat format you do.

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Speaker 2: And three issues you said you.

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Speaker 4: Stayed with it was it was a historical, it was

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anti sacramental, anti mystical, and.

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Speaker 2: Just flat out done.

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Speaker 4: Yes, the problem that I have with that is specifically

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a historical and the issues I have with that is

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and some of the issues you gave for why protestant

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is antihistorical was they don't follow the liturgical warship properly,

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They don't do certain customs and traditions that were practiced

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by the early Church, and don't have the exact same

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pieces of scripture or some example.

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Speaker 3: Those are some examples. There could be many more listed

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for sure.

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Speaker 4: And the issue I have with that, if Protestantism.

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Speaker 2: Is a historical by those standards, I would say, so

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is Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 3: And how is that.

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Speaker 4: Well for starters Constantinople fell in fourteen fifty three.

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Speaker 3: You can't be serious that this is an argument that

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you think this is an arguments the start of one. Yeah,

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what does this have to do with the theology. This

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is why I block this guy, because this is too

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too dumb. I mean, are you the synoticon of Orthodoxy?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 4: Because I believe in the Sonoticon of Orthodoxy, in one

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of the statements you give Thanksgiving, and that is the

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glorification and of the defenders of Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 3: Might not mistaken, probably I don't remember. It's a giant text.

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Speaker 4: It's a giant text that's different among different branches of Orthodoxy.

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Speaker 3: Right because different bishops can add their own personal For example,

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Metropolitan saraphim A Preas adds the Joe's witnesses to the

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condemnation texture.

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Speaker 4: And the problem I have with that is the statement

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of the defender of Orthodoxy, which originally within the Church.

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Speaker 2: Was the Holy Roman Emperor.

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Speaker 4: As was stated by Anthony, Patriarch of Constantinople in thirteen

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ninety three to a letter of to letter to Basle

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the First, the Grand Prince of Moscow, saying, my son,

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it is not possible for Christians to have a church

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and not have an emperor. Church and Empire have a

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great unity and community. It is not possible for them

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to be separated from one another. For the Holy Emperor

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is not as other rulers and the governors of other regions.

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Speaker 2: And this is because the Emperor is from the.

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Speaker 4: Beginning establish and confirmed true religion Eustia in all inhabited

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world okiomenia, they convolse.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know how to pronounce.

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Speaker 3: The word, obviously, And so orthodoxy is false because Byzantium fell,

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I mean.

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Speaker 4: It's not just that Bonancium fell.

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Speaker 2: Puppet.

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Speaker 3: Now we see why I booted this guy, and I

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was right to boot that guy. This is too stupid

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to even entertain. So, guys, I know you want entertainment,

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but when you asked me to bring back Banantium and

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these kinds of goofballs, it's usually because they're booted for

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a reason. So let's get on my banana phone and

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let's call up Banantium and let's talk to the Bananantine

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emperor and see if we can get any history about

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why he's not ruling on an earthly throne to help

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ensure Banantium. Hello, Hello, Can anyone else call in the

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banana phone and see if they can get the Bananantine Emperor? Hello?

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I just hear monkey is chirping. I think I called

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the Matt Dila Monkey line accidentally. I got Mount Dila

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Monkey on speed dial.

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Speaker 5: Does the Eastern or the Church think that Saint Augustine

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is a saint?

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Speaker 3: Yes, he's called a saint of the Fifth Act Medical Council.

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Speaker 2: Okay, did the old heresies.

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Speaker 3: He held to errors? An error is not necessarily heresy.

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Every church father, in some way has some error that

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doesn't make them all heretics.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So the philioque absolute divine simplicity or in heresies.

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Speaker 3: A heresy is something that's declared to heresy by the

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Church eventually in a council. Augustine didn't believe anything erroneous

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at his time that he knew was a heresy, so

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I philioquay is not condemned until the Middle Ages.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So before the nice and kind of the Nicean Council,

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if someone held that Jesus was in God or go

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substantial with the Father, then they were inhertics, right according.

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Speaker 3: To that law. No, No, because some errors are significant

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enough that the person that holds them. It's the attitude

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that they have and the humility that they have. So

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for example, when Augustine writes on the Trinity, he says,

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in book three, I am speculating, and I give these

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books to the judgment of the Universal Church, and if

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there's anything wrong in them, they can be rejected. So

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that's the attitude of humility to you. That, for example,

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Origin didn't have. Origin was obstinate to the end of

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his life in his heresies, and he did not submit

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to the judgment of the Church, whereas Augustine did so.

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Augustine's humility is what covers the theological speculations and mistakes

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that he had, whereas for the people that you're talking about,

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it's different.

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Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha.

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Speaker 5: Was he later corrected though by other bishops and other theologians.

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Speaker 3: If he hands his book to the Church for judgment,

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and Church that doesn't mean that it happens overnight, if

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the Church doesn't in his lifetime judge it, but the

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Church judges by the time of the Fifth Acumenical Council

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that he's a saint. And by the way, do you

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know what book the Fifth Actumdical Council lists as his

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pre eminent theological work. No, okay, it's none of those books.

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It's against the Manicheans, so it's not on the Trinity

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or See of God or any of these other works.

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Speaker 2: Okay, gotcha, that was my question. Thank you, all right.

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Speaker 3: So, heresy is a sin of will and obstinacy, not

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just a sin of mistake or error, and not even

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Roman Catholics believe that he got everything right. They think

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he made all kinds of theological mistakes, which would mean

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that Roman Catholicism is false if that's the criteria. Because

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Augustine taught a pretty strict doctrine predestination that the Roman

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cally Church eventually doesn't adhere to. So if that's the case,

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then the Roman Catholic system he's also a heretic. But

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pretty much everybody has a degree of flexibility for saints

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in the church, because no saint got everything as an

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individual saint correct. Many of them got all kinds of

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things wrong. Many of them got the canon of Scripture wrong,

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and that's an important thing, But it doesn't make them

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all heretics because they made a mistake. Making mistake is

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not the essence of a heresy. Obstinacy and pride is

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the essence of heresy.

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Speaker 6: Just had a couple of questions, like about Eastern Orthodox relationships.

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Speaker 2: I guess to the Reforms, Okay, so.

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Speaker 6: I guess for starters, the main condemnation of the Reformed

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would be their relationship to Roman Catholicism.

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Speaker 3: Correct, the Orthodox condemnation of the Reformed would be the

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relation to Roman Catholicism. I don't know they even know

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what that means.

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Speaker 2: Like I suppose I can qualify the question.

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Speaker 6: So the Reformed are going to try to make some

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claim about their Apostolic succession, at least the High Reformed, right,

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and they're going to trace that through Roman Catholicism. They're

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not going to trace it through like either the East Split.

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Speaker 3: I've never heard of a Reform person who believes in

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Apostolic succession, so I don't even know what that means.

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Speaker 6: Oh interesting, all right, maybe this is some niche view.

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I guess the second question, I mean.

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Speaker 3: Maybe an Anglican Calvinist High Church Anglican Calvinists would try

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to claim that's why.

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Speaker 6: I mean, yeah, yeah, I've heard that from High Church

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Anglicans through Reformed Anglicans even, but I've heard it from

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like OPC guys, right, Orthodox Presbyterians.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 3: I mean, well, I mean, if they want to redefine

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what the word a succession means, then that's what they're doing.

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Because there's no Protestants who are Classical Reformation Protestants that

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believe that there's a transmission of the gift of the

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Holy Spirit in the laying on of hands.

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Speaker 6: Kind of in the same way that a Lutheran is

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going to argue for the historicity and apolasticity of the

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Lutheran Church.

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Speaker 3: But that's not what I just said.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, I'm recognizing the distinction.

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Speaker 3: Then it's not apostolic accession. It's redefining the terms to

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make Protestantism and continuity with some made up traditions, just

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like they do the same thing with Niceno Constantapolitan Creed,

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where it says one Holy Catholic Apostolic and they redefine

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that to me an the invisible Church.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'll just can see that. It's like redefining No

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problem there. So the second question would be.

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Speaker 6: I've seen maybe I obviously need to read more about

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Eastern Orthodox resources on the sovereignty of God, but it

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seems to me that like certain historic views within the

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Eastern Orthodox can be consistent with like maybe four point

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or three point five, you know, tool of affirming Calvinists.

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Speaker 2: Do you agree or disagree? No?

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Speaker 6: Okay, which of the points, like, do you flat out

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reject on all of them?

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Speaker 2: Fair enough?

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Speaker 6: All right, I'm not gonna take up too much time

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if you ever want to have like a formal debate.

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Speaker 7: I DM.

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Speaker 2: Do you so? Thanks for the space?

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Speaker 3: Well how about right now?

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Speaker 2: No with me, I'm not good enough of this. I

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have other people that I can talk to you or

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link you up again I do. I mean what their names?

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Is it?

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Speaker 3: Somebody with an audience over a few hundred followers?

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Speaker 2: Uh? Yeah, a couple of them. Jonathan Speaks would be

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one of them.

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Speaker 3: And how big is his audience.

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Speaker 6: I'd probably guess around five six hundred?

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Speaker 2: No, thanks, thanks for your time.

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Speaker 3: Again. The Twitter spaces are for four or five hundred

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two three five thousand. I'm not doing any formal debates

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unless you have a large following. I didn't work my

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butt off debating a thousand goobers to debate all the

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top atheists and Muslims, to spend all my time debating

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a bunch of five hundred follower people who want to

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chase clout and grow their audience. So that's why you

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get the Twitter space and they don't come here because

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all they want is a big audience. Jud are you there?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: I can hear you. It's real quiet, can you hear me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 9: Hey, I don't know why your volume is super long

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on my phone, but I'm here, Okay.

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Speaker 2: I had a question for you.

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Speaker 9: So I'm a Protestant, I'm an Evangelical and I've been

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inquiring it too Orthodoxy and it's really fascinating stuff.

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Speaker 2: I'm trying to learn as much as I can.

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Speaker 9: The thing that I am having a hard time really

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understanding is your guys view on christ sacrifice and it

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comes to the shedding of blood and the Old Testament

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sacrificial system. You know, that's really deep be ingrained in

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Protestant view of salvation and.

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Speaker 3: Literally, so what I'm gonna say is, I'm gonna what

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I'm gonna say is go watch the video Protestant Penal

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Substitution Jay Dyer. So we've literally covered this probably five

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hundred times. It comes up in every open space. So

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if you look at my clips channel, you'll find multiple

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things on PSA. I try to be rude. I'm just like,

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it's like probably a thousand times we've responded to that.

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Go ahead, hello, yep.

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Speaker 10: Hey, So also Protestant here, very disgruntled Protestant.

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Speaker 2: Uh.

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Speaker 10: I would like to go east Orthodoxy, but my wife

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has voice and concerns about y'all's mariology of Holy and

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do y'all see her as totally sinless, like she has.

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Speaker 2: Never once in her life?

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Speaker 10: Or is that she is the most pure, most blessed

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and and like, I get all that part, but y'all

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can make the contention that she's never sinned ever.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, she's a spatless virgin and God's grace preserved her

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from sinning.

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Speaker 2: Gotcha. And so that would be a.

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Speaker 10: Stumbling block for my wife is that she would not

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be comfortable saying that Mary only is sinless.

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Speaker 2: She would say that she's most.

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Speaker 10: Pure if that's fine, but she would have the issue

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of making the jumpsy sinless.

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Speaker 2: What do you what do you recommend?

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Speaker 3: I mean, I made a whole video on the importance

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of Mary, and I would say that, you know, I

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like if if all the other doctrines are true an Orthodox, see,

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it doesn't make any sense to say, but I'm not

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going to submit to this one that I don't like

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or disagree with, like if it's a package deal. So

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to me, it's perfectly befitting that if she's the new Eve,

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she would be like Eve, and instead of being a

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fallen creature in the sense of actual sin, she would

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be preserved from that like Eve would have been had

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she not sinned. So I think it's a consequence of

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her as the mother of God, that she was preserved

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from that so that she could be in that intimate,

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special role of being the one that gave birth to

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the Son of God and gave to him his human

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nature and so forth. But if we think about sin

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as a specific act and not as a state of being,

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as most Calvinists and reform people do. They think of

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sin as a state of being. It's not find is James,

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excuse me by James, as an action of the will.

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That's another reason why infants aren't quote sinners, because infants

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don't commit actual sins. They don't commit sins of the will.

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The only sense in which an infant is a quote

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center is that they are deprived of the grace of

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Eden and they are fallen, and so they feel the

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effects of the sin. And sometimes Paul speaks of that

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whole class of human beings under the descent of Adam

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as in sin. That does not equate to them being

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actual sinners. It equates to them having the effects of sin.

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So this is and literally no one believes this anymore,

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that infants are damned except Calvinists. Roman Catholics don't believe

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that infants are have inherited guilt. Maybe Lutherans do, I'm

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not sure, but there's literally no one else that believes

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this except for Calvinists. So you're not gonna be Orthodox

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or Catholic if you believe that infants have actual sin,

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which is kind of stupid if you think about it.

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Speaker 2: My first point is when we look at Jesus, did

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Jesus use tradition in the way that you would envision

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it in your definition of tradition?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Could you show us that well, he specifically.

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Speaker 2: Could you give us the Eastern Orthodox definition and then show.

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Speaker 3: Us he specifically said that the Word of God was

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himself and not the books to the Pharisees.

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Speaker 2: No, you're not listening to me.

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Speaker 11: Right here we go, I'm asking you to give me

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the definition of Eastern Orthodox.

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Speaker 2: You understanding of tradition?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's the full revelation, whether containing the written text

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or the oral preaching of the apostles. How's that okay?

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The faith once we're all committed to the saints.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I think you're still don't give it a.

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Speaker 3: Full definition, right, and so you go make more YouTube videos.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to know your thoughts are fully ocal. Okay,

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go ahead, yeah, so yeah, so do you what's the

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Orthodox position? Do y'all?

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Speaker 12: Do y'all deny that there's any procession of the Holy

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Spirit through the Sun.

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Speaker 3: No, there is a procession through the sun, but it

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is not his existential hypostatic origin.

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Speaker 2: Okay.

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Speaker 12: But if it's the case that the Holy Spirit, if

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it's the case that the Holy Spirit proceeds through the sun, right,

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then then what really is any difference between the Orthodox

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position of philioko are.

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Speaker 3: Not because that's not the position that's laid out of

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the Council of Lions in Florence. That position says that

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there's a double eternal hyposthetic principle from the Father and

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the Son, who function as a single principle of the

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origin of the Holy Spirit. And that's something that we

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can never accept because it gets to the sun, the

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unique property that identifies the Father.

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Speaker 12: Well, you would you would agree that there's going to

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be a distinction between being begonton and being preceded.

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Speaker 3: Right, that has nothing to do with what I just said.

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Speaker 12: Well, yes it does, because the Catholic like like you said,

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the Catholic position is going to be that the Father

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and the Son is the one principle that the Holy

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Spirit spir rates from.

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Speaker 3: There's nothing that two persons in the Trinity share, as

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the Cappadocians say that one lacks. And so you've created

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a diad. So you reject you created because the Father

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and the Son are a united principle of power and

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causation that the Spirit does not have. So that's an imbalance,

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that's a diad.

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Speaker 12: Well, but that but that's that's what distinguishes being forgotten

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or the Son being forgotten, and the and the Spirit

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being preceded. Right, because of the amount of people that

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takes that that takes part are not the amount of

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persons that take parts in preceding the Holy Spirit, at

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least in the Catholic view, right, we can make the

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case that the Holy Spirit truly is proceeded and not

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just be gotten right from the Father.

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Speaker 3: So you're repeating Roman Catholic apologetic apologetics that doesn't even

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address like the level of which we're talking about this question.

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So can you repeat to me what my argument was?

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Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, yeah, the argument was that, well, you pretty

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much just laid out of our position. Then you said that, oh,

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I've created a diead because it's going to be like

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the two persons, the fathering son being the one principle

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in which, right, the Holy Spirit pretty much originates from

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or essence from that.

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Speaker 2: Is that your position?

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Speaker 3: And why is that a problem?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I don't see the problem.

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Speaker 3: Why did I Why did I say that's a problem.

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Speaker 12: Well, you said, you said those are problems because I

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created a diead, right.

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Speaker 3: And why is that? I said specifically, there's a reason why.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because the father and the son is the one principle.

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Speaker 3: And why is that a problem?

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Speaker 2: You tell me?

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Speaker 3: Okay, I mean, I'm trying really hard to be patient

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with you guys, but like I literally stated explicitly what

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the problem is, and you've come with like level one

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understanding and you want to debate it, which is fine.

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I don't mind doing it. But did it ever occur

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to you, Did it ever occur to you to maybe

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read some of the arguments on this before you went

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to debate it?

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Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, I know, so I I but you.

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Speaker 3: Can't restate my argument, So you're not Are you not

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listening to what I said or you just didn't catch it.

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You want me stated again.

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Speaker 12: Well, will your position on the matter would be that

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the father is the only principle?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 3: And who said that? Anybody in church history?

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean I'm asking you, do.

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Speaker 3: You know of any famous church fathers that were involved

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in any ecumenical councils that maybe said that.

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Speaker 12: I know church fathers that believing Philly Opy. Do you, yeah, Augustine?

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm? Do you accept that or do you deny that?

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Speaker 3: No? I mean I don't accept his teaching. No, it's wrong.

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Speaker 2: Oh oh so he does, so he does accept absolutely,

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But he's a saint in your church.

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Speaker 3: Do you really think that these are owns that we

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haven't addressed these arguments probably five hundred times. I mean.

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Speaker 12: No, I mean that's I know the copium that you

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guys use.

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Speaker 3: So let's let's get into that. All right, you want

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to do this, let's do it. What council confirmed the

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Doctor of the Trinity for the Universal Church?

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Speaker 2: The council? Did I see that? No?

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Speaker 3: So you see, you don't even know the first of this.

469
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,680
You don't even know level one of this debate. It's

470
00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,000
the second Ecaemical Council. Who are the three fathers that

471
00:24:41,079 --> 00:24:43,200
are the most important of the second ecamical Council?

472
00:24:44,799 --> 00:24:46,680
Speaker 2: The second was the second?

473
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:49,319
Speaker 3: So you don't know anything, and you're trying to debate.

474
00:24:50,039 --> 00:24:52,599
Speaker 12: Are you talking about what is all the go with

475
00:24:52,599 --> 00:24:53,440
Philio boy?

476
00:24:53,720 --> 00:24:56,799
Speaker 3: Exactly? So you don't even know the Cappadocian doctrine of

477
00:24:56,839 --> 00:24:59,119
the trinity that's outlined at constant double one.

478
00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,319
Speaker 2: I don't know, I mean I is it like correct?

479
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 13: Yes?

480
00:25:06,319 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah?

481
00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that's not a filioquated doctrine because tell me

482
00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:14,599
what the hypostatic property of the.

483
00:25:14,519 --> 00:25:18,200
Speaker 2: Father is the hypostatic property, So.

484
00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:20,759
Speaker 3: You don't even know the basic Cappadocian terms. You don't

485
00:25:20,759 --> 00:25:22,839
even know our basic position, and you're trying to argue

486
00:25:22,839 --> 00:25:24,480
with me and call it you call it code.

487
00:25:26,759 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 12: Tell you, yeah, the hyposthetic property of the father is

488
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,720
that he's the one that again he's he's the one principal.

489
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 3: Oh, he's the one principal. But you just said a

490
00:25:37,440 --> 00:25:39,279
minute ago that you agree that the son is also

491
00:25:39,319 --> 00:25:41,440
a co principal with him, so he's not the one principal.

492
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,440
How many principles are how many principles are there?

493
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: There's one principle?

494
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,559
Speaker 3: No, you don't you believe there's one, And you contradicted

495
00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:50,359
by saying that the father and the son together are

496
00:25:50,400 --> 00:25:51,599
a principle that's two.

497
00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's the one principle. It's not gonna be

498
00:25:53,839 --> 00:25:54,519
two principles.

499
00:25:54,559 --> 00:25:56,440
Speaker 3: You just said the father is the principal, and then

500
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:58,079
you said the father and the son are a principle.

501
00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:00,559
That's two. Can you count the father?

502
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 2: And what do you this dowel argument?

503
00:26:05,519 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 3: Are you this dumb? You don't even know our position?

504
00:26:08,079 --> 00:26:11,200
You said, you said the father is the principal, right.

505
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,160
Speaker 2: The father and the son are the one principle.

506
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 3: At first you said the father is the principle. I

507
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,359
asked you his hypothetic property. You said it was to

508
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:22,759
be the principal. That's just hype. Well, yeah, you said that,

509
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:24,799
don't lie. You said that, Yeah I know.

510
00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, I understand that the mother is going to

511
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,200
be the principal.

512
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,079
Speaker 3: Oh then there you go. Now you've contradicted because the

513
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,759
father and the son together are now a principal. That's

514
00:26:34,799 --> 00:26:37,039
the problem. So that's two principles.

515
00:26:37,839 --> 00:26:39,759
Speaker 2: I never negated that the son is a principal.

516
00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,839
Speaker 3: If the father is the principal and the son also

517
00:26:44,880 --> 00:26:46,799
with him, is also a principal, that's two.

518
00:26:47,599 --> 00:26:49,839
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, they're both the same principle.

519
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,319
Speaker 3: Okay, now you're a modal Now you're a modalist because

520
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,200
now you've said the Father and the Son together are

521
00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,160
a principle. That's modalism.

522
00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:57,599
Speaker 2: How does that follow.

523
00:26:57,759 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 3: Because that's the argument that the Gappatoians made against the Eunomians.

524
00:27:01,759 --> 00:27:05,400
You're confusing hyposthetic properties with common powers and energies.

525
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: Where are you getting this notion from?

526
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,839
Speaker 3: Have you read Basil on the Holy Spirit? Have you

527
00:27:11,839 --> 00:27:13,319
read Basil against Unomious?

528
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:18,640
Speaker 12: Oh, Basil against the Basil is what you would be.

529
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:20,279
Speaker 3: I thought you knew all this stuff. You're not familiar

530
00:27:20,319 --> 00:27:20,920
with those works?

531
00:27:22,519 --> 00:27:23,839
Speaker 2: Can you repeat? Can you repeat what you say?

532
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 3: Basil on the Holy Spirit and Basil against Unomious?

533
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: Have you read those iusunomious?

534
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:31,079
Speaker 3: Don't even know the words?

535
00:27:31,279 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 2: What does.

536
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 3: Nonymious? Anonymious? So you're not even familiar with this. You're

537
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,880
not familiar with it? Is you're a clown that because

538
00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:44,799
it shows that you're not familiar with the literature, and

539
00:27:44,799 --> 00:27:45,720
you're trying to debate it.

540
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,759
Speaker 2: Why that's not true?

541
00:27:48,200 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 3: True? You don't know the terms. You're demonstrating your ignorance

542
00:27:52,279 --> 00:27:53,440
of the whole scope of this.

543
00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 2: Oh, because I pronounce.

544
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: No, it means that you're not familiar with the literature.

545
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:00,640
You couldn't even tell me to works.

546
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 2: This is no no, have you read this?

547
00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:08,920
Speaker 3: Have you read this literature? Have you read this literature?

548
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:17,119
Speaker 2: Uh? The literature? Ons? Why does that matter? Can you

549
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:17,759
show me where?

550
00:28:17,839 --> 00:28:20,240
Speaker 3: Because it shows that you don't. It shows that you're

551
00:28:20,279 --> 00:28:21,960
not familiar with the topic. You don't know to pronounce

552
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:22,680
the basic terms.

553
00:28:22,759 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 2: Right.

554
00:28:24,839 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 3: No, No, you're about to cry, dude, like, Look, it

555
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:31,799
would be whove you to go and understand this stuff

556
00:28:31,839 --> 00:28:33,759
before you try to debate it, and you did come

557
00:28:33,759 --> 00:28:34,319
here to debate.

558
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:37,519
Speaker 2: Can you please just show me where Saint Basil.

559
00:28:38,359 --> 00:28:41,519
Speaker 3: Argues against who's the Who's the soul cause? Who do

560
00:28:41,559 --> 00:28:42,680
they argue is the sole cause?

561
00:28:44,519 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: The soul cause? What do you mean by soul calls?

562
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,319
Speaker 3: So you're not, again, not familiar with common terminology throughout

563
00:28:49,359 --> 00:28:53,839
all the cappadtions soul cause, soul cause, father is the

564
00:28:53,839 --> 00:28:59,000
sole cause? The cap dictum? Shut up? Shut up? All right,

565
00:28:59,119 --> 00:29:00,160
you're gone.

566
00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:02,240
Speaker 2: He's running.

567
00:29:02,359 --> 00:29:04,319
Speaker 3: No, you made it a fool of yourself. I'm not

568
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:06,920
running from you. You have no idea what you're talking about.

569
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:11,079
I'm trying to explain it to you. You won't shut up,

570
00:29:11,119 --> 00:29:15,079
Shut up, and I'll tell you that's fine sole cause

571
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,400
their dictum is anything that is a hypostatic property is

572
00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:23,359
unique to the person's and non communicable or shareable. Anything

573
00:29:23,400 --> 00:29:26,359
that is not a hypostatic property is common to all three.

574
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,519
That's a Cappadocian dictum. That's why the philioko is wrong,

575
00:29:29,559 --> 00:29:33,480
according to the Cappadocians, because the father's principle what picks

576
00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:38,599
him out his hypostatic property is to be sole sol

577
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:46,039
e cause rka fount principle. It does because it means

578
00:29:46,079 --> 00:29:49,279
that what he has that marks him out cannot be shared.

579
00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,799
That's the Cappadocian dictum.

580
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:54,319
Speaker 2: Well yeah, well.

581
00:29:56,759 --> 00:30:00,960
Speaker 3: No, it does not relation itself is a predicate, not

582
00:30:01,079 --> 00:30:04,319
a subject. Persons are subjects, not relations.

583
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, but that's the thing that so you would.

584
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: Know that if you've read the Cappadocian. So you have

585
00:30:10,079 --> 00:30:11,799
no knowledge of this topic and you're trying to debate,

586
00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:15,680
I'm asking, what does persona at rolatio mean?

587
00:30:17,559 --> 00:30:19,599
Speaker 2: Oh, now he wants Now he wants to speak Greek.

588
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 3: Persona at Rolatio's Latin, you idiot. Oh and I don't

589
00:30:28,519 --> 00:30:30,920
know Latin, I don't care about Latin. But this guy

590
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,799
just showed this is the arrogance of these people no

591
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:37,200
knowledge of these topics. They want to debate it. Persona

592
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,920
at rolatio is Aquinas's dictum person is relation. So the

593
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,400
first person to say that is that I'm aware of

594
00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400
is perhaps Augustine, but at least for sure Aquinas.

595
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 7: I think most Orthodoxy or Catholics don't believe that salvation

596
00:30:53,119 --> 00:30:56,880
is by grace through faith, and I make the I'm

597
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:58,960
gonna make the claim that it is.

598
00:31:00,079 --> 00:31:00,799
Speaker 2: On the scriptures.

599
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 3: Well, we believe that it is, but we believe that

600
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:05,799
those words mean different things from you. So it's not

601
00:31:05,839 --> 00:31:08,440
that we reject the scriptures or don't believe in salvation

602
00:31:08,559 --> 00:31:11,039
by faith or by grace, but we don't believe that

603
00:31:11,079 --> 00:31:15,200
it's a legal standing that's imputational, which is based on

604
00:31:15,519 --> 00:31:20,960
a heretical trinitarian theology, like.

605
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:24,519
Speaker 2: A legal standing. The word justified is a legal term,

606
00:31:24,599 --> 00:31:24,880
is it not?

607
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,599
Speaker 3: Yeah, But it's not a purely fictional imputational legal standing.

608
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:30,880
That's what I'm saying is impossible because nobody in the

609
00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:34,400
ancient medieval world were nominalists, and you need nominalism to

610
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:35,160
have that position.

611
00:31:38,839 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 2: What do you mean by nominalists?

612
00:31:40,319 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 13: Sorry?

613
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:45,519
Speaker 3: Right, So the reformers like Luther relied on medieval nominalists

614
00:31:45,559 --> 00:31:47,839
like Akham and Bile to figure out how it was

615
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,160
possible for God to declare people to be a legal

616
00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,079
state that they weren't ontologically that thing. So that's nominalism,

617
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:57,440
that it's a name only position, a legal standing position

618
00:31:57,519 --> 00:32:01,119
that doesn't reflect an actual ontological change in being. And

619
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,000
since nobody in the ancient Imita the world were nominalists

620
00:32:04,079 --> 00:32:06,880
until Aukham, that means Paul didn't teach your.

621
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 2: View, doesn't it say everyone's four to five? That's let's see,

622
00:32:14,519 --> 00:32:15,279
let me pull it up here.

623
00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:18,119
Speaker 3: So you're not gonna address what I said. You're gonna blow.

624
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 14: Past you know.

625
00:32:18,759 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 2: I'm trying to understand what you're saying. I'm not trying

626
00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:21,799
to ignore it.

627
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,720
Speaker 3: Have you read Alistair McGrath? No, what is that funny?

628
00:32:28,759 --> 00:32:29,480
I don't understand.

629
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 2: No, I'm just I'm not laughing at you.

630
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,480
Speaker 3: I'm just saying, no, I haven't well, but you laughed,

631
00:32:34,519 --> 00:32:36,160
so I don't understand why it's funny.

632
00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:37,680
Speaker 2: I don't.

633
00:32:38,119 --> 00:32:38,480
Speaker 9: I don't know.

634
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,279
Speaker 7: It's just chuckle, dude. Okay, I'm a little I've never

635
00:32:41,279 --> 00:32:43,519
done one of these before, so it's a bit new

636
00:32:43,559 --> 00:32:44,920
to me. Maybe more of a nervous laughter.

637
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 3: Okay. Well, McGrath is one of the most famous modern

638
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,359
Oxford Protestant scholars. He wrote a book called Eustacia Day

639
00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:53,759
and in that book he admits that nobody in the

640
00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:56,839
ancient a medieval world until about fifteen hundreds had the

641
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,240
idea of justification by faith alone.

642
00:33:00,559 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 7: Okay, here, let me pull up some quotes here then,

643
00:33:03,799 --> 00:33:06,400
didn't uh, let me fall some quotes with some church fathers.

644
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 3: Okay, church fathers who believed in apisodic succession and the

645
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:12,000
real presence you think they taught justification.

646
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:14,359
Speaker 2: Let me pull on.

647
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,799
Speaker 3: You're going to pull up a bunch of quote minds

648
00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:21,079
that don't say what I'm saying. They say what you

649
00:33:21,119 --> 00:33:23,160
think they're saying. So you're going to read into these

650
00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:25,759
church fathers who also teach the necessity of works and

651
00:33:25,799 --> 00:33:27,920
then use the real presence. You're going to try to

652
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:34,759
quote mind then to prove the Protestant doctrines. Okay, I

653
00:33:34,839 --> 00:33:36,279
used to be a Protestant, Dude, I did all this.

654
00:33:36,359 --> 00:33:38,759
Don't you think I know what you're gonna do?

655
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:40,319
Speaker 2: What do you put you mean?

656
00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,160
Speaker 7: I'm just trying to put out a position here and

657
00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:44,799
I don't.

658
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:46,839
Speaker 2: I don't know, like I'm not particularly the.

659
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 3: Romans for let's go to Romans for when Paul, who

660
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:53,039
does Paul? Where does Paul cite? In Genesis and Romans for.

661
00:33:54,599 --> 00:33:58,519
Speaker 2: Okay, let's just read it here Romans for three four.

662
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 7: What's say at the scripture Abraham believed God and it

663
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:02,160
was kind.

664
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,279
Speaker 2: Of him for righteous? Yes?

665
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 3: Where is he citing a.

666
00:34:05,319 --> 00:34:09,280
Speaker 2: Roman's death Genesis chapter fifteen, verses three six?

667
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:12,760
Speaker 3: Right? Now, tell me this in the Protestant view in

668
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,519
terms of the transition from rath to grace, as the

669
00:34:15,559 --> 00:34:18,960
reformer spoke of, when was that in Abraham's.

670
00:34:18,400 --> 00:34:22,760
Speaker 7: Life Genesis chapter fifteen when it says he believed God?

671
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: Thank you for refuting? Yes, thank you for reputing. Thank

672
00:34:26,519 --> 00:34:31,039
you for refuting Protestantism, because it's just it's Genesis twelve

673
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,920
where Abraham first believes and does several chapters of good

674
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,320
works before Genesis fifteen. So you just refuted Protestantism in

675
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:38,880
Romans four.

676
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 7: No, because you read, you read the rest of the chapter.

677
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,559
It's talking about Genesis chapter fifteen or so.

678
00:34:47,599 --> 00:34:50,639
Speaker 3: You literally heard nothing I said, and you're not addressing area.

679
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,079
You don't even understand the argument. You're you're blowing past

680
00:34:54,199 --> 00:34:54,800
the argument.

681
00:34:56,079 --> 00:34:58,159
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe I'm just not quite getting with you.

682
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:00,599
Speaker 3: Right, You're not correct. Do you want me to state

683
00:35:00,639 --> 00:35:06,159
it again? Sure, the transition from wrath to grace should

684
00:35:06,159 --> 00:35:11,760
be Genesis twelve, not fifteen. So by Paul citing Genesis fifteen,

685
00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:14,920
you refute the Protestant position.

686
00:35:18,320 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 7: I'm sorry, I don't follow that because, oh my god,

687
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:24,719
hold on, hold on, dude, hold on, because in Genesis twelve,

688
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,079
the command was just get out of your country. It

689
00:35:27,119 --> 00:35:29,039
wasn't that he'd be a father of many nations or

690
00:35:29,320 --> 00:35:32,199
if it was, like he didn't completely comprehend that, and

691
00:35:32,239 --> 00:35:33,800
it records.

692
00:35:33,119 --> 00:35:35,400
Speaker 3: Did he believe in faith and general So this is

693
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,800
this is let me present my position. You're you're you're

694
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:40,079
ignoring the argument.

695
00:35:40,199 --> 00:35:41,320
Speaker 2: I'm not trying. I'm not trying to.

696
00:35:41,480 --> 00:35:43,519
Speaker 3: Yes, you are. You're inventing a bunch of bull crap

697
00:35:43,599 --> 00:35:48,679
about No, he wasn't so he wasn't justified in no,

698
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:50,760
you're not. You don't even know what the word of

699
00:35:50,760 --> 00:35:53,639
God is. You don't even know what. So he does

700
00:35:53,679 --> 00:35:56,199
three chapters of good works, but he's not justified yet.

701
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:57,559
This is how silly your position is.

702
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:01,039
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, so.

703
00:36:01,079 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 3: God didn't make a covenant with him.

704
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:05,679
Speaker 2: Now to him, that worketh is the reward not right.

705
00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:07,400
Speaker 3: So you're not going to listen to the argument. You're

706
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,199
just gonna starting.

707
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:12,159
Speaker 2: You're not listening to me. You're not letting me get.

708
00:36:11,519 --> 00:36:13,519
Speaker 3: Did Abraham believe God in Genesis twelve?

709
00:36:14,119 --> 00:36:17,320
Speaker 2: He believed? Okay, let's just let's just quote that. Let's

710
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:18,079
go to Genesis twelve.

711
00:36:18,159 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 7: Let's just go there, yess twelve, that's in Genesis twelve.

712
00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:22,760
Speaker 2: Three.

713
00:36:23,039 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 3: Does he build an altar in verse eight and call

714
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:26,840
upon the name of the Lord and worship him?

715
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:33,400
Speaker 7: Oh, all right, Genesis twelve, Get the out.

716
00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:35,039
Speaker 2: Of that country, and from my kindred and from my

717
00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:37,480
father's house onto a land that I will kill thee.

718
00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 7: I will make of the a great nation that will

719
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,199
bless thee, and make thy name great, that thou and

720
00:36:43,159 --> 00:36:44,239
thou shalt be a blessing.

721
00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:46,719
Speaker 2: And I will bless them the blessed being curse and

722
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:53,159
the curse of thee. Oh, sorry about that? That will

723
00:36:53,199 --> 00:36:55,719
bless them, the blessed being curse and the kirsty. And

724
00:36:55,719 --> 00:36:57,639
then these shall all families with the earth to bless.

725
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:00,280
So Abraham departed, as the Lord had spoken about him.

726
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:02,840
Speaker 3: Does he build an altar in versus seven eight nine,

727
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:03,679
worship God.

728
00:37:03,960 --> 00:37:08,159
Speaker 2: I'm getting there. I'm getting there, all right, all right,

729
00:37:08,199 --> 00:37:08,960
I'll just go to verse eight.

730
00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,639
Speaker 7: And he removed from thence onto a mountain on the

731
00:37:11,679 --> 00:37:14,840
east of Bethel, and pitched his tent, having Bethel on

732
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:15,719
the west verse.

733
00:37:15,599 --> 00:37:17,239
Speaker 3: Seven, eight and nine. Seven.

734
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:21,119
Speaker 2: Excuse me, I didn't I didn't hear, so.

735
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:23,639
Speaker 3: I said, seven eight nine, he builds an altar.

736
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:28,119
Speaker 7: Dude, I didn't hear you, so my mistake. And the

737
00:37:28,159 --> 00:37:30,519
Lord appeared onto Abraham and said, unto the sea, but

738
00:37:30,639 --> 00:37:33,400
I give this land. And there he built an altar,

739
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:34,920
unto the Lord who appeared unto him.

740
00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:39,280
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, oh, but he's not saved yet.

741
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,840
Speaker 2: Well listen, well, when was he declared righteous? My God?

742
00:37:46,000 --> 00:37:47,559
You tell me when? When does the.

743
00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 7: Bible say that he was declared righteous by God? When

744
00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:51,000
did it count for it?

745
00:37:51,119 --> 00:37:53,519
Speaker 3: For right now, I'm showing the stupidity of your interpretation

746
00:37:53,559 --> 00:37:54,239
of Roman school.

747
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,360
Speaker 2: Okay, that's an assertion. That's an assertion that you're making.

748
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,000
You're not really backing it up, though, So I'm.

749
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:03,079
Speaker 3: It up by the fact that shut up, shut up,

750
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:08,000
shut up, or you're gone. In verse in verse in

751
00:38:08,119 --> 00:38:11,639
verses seven and eight, he worships the Lord God. Obviously

752
00:38:11,679 --> 00:38:16,559
accepts this worship. He acts in faith for the next

753
00:38:16,599 --> 00:38:22,440
several chapters until Genesis fifteen. So this refutes your stupid

754
00:38:22,559 --> 00:38:27,119
argument that he was saved in fifteen. So Romans four

755
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,239
doesn't teach the Protestant view. It's just your assumption that

756
00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:31,480
it taught the Protestant view.

757
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,559
Speaker 2: Okay, let me ask you this Roman.

758
00:38:34,039 --> 00:38:35,280
Speaker 3: Now you're going to change the subject.

759
00:38:35,639 --> 00:38:37,840
Speaker 2: I am not. I am not going to change the subject.

760
00:38:38,280 --> 00:38:41,039
Speaker 3: So was he not saved for three chapters of good works?

761
00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:42,639
Speaker 2: And I asked a question.

762
00:38:42,679 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: You're not No, was he not saved?

763
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: No? Because it doesn't say he was declared.

764
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 3: Okay, so yeah, you're an idiot, so so so God.

765
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,360
So he does all these good works and he's not

766
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,320
saved until to just save your stupid position it is.

767
00:38:56,360 --> 00:39:01,079
It's nonsense, you're so he's not He's not lauded for

768
00:39:01,119 --> 00:39:03,280
his faith when he goes into Egypt in fourteen.

769
00:39:06,199 --> 00:39:07,920
Speaker 2: W are you talking about specific thirteen?

770
00:39:08,000 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 3: So when he fourteen, when he when he after the

771
00:39:10,480 --> 00:39:13,599
Battle of the Kings, when he tithes to Malkisa deck,

772
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,519
he's not even saved yet for his he's lauded as

773
00:39:17,559 --> 00:39:22,360
a faith champion in Hebrews eleven when he's not even saved.

774
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:23,920
This is how stupid your position is.

775
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:27,519
Speaker 2: Okay, so that's that's what you're just gonna do, just

776
00:39:27,559 --> 00:39:31,320
like I just dunk on somebody who's never done this before.

777
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 3: So now you're playing victim when you're ad a bunch

778
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,920
of bad arguments. Well, you're dead about me. I've never

779
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:40,400
done this before. No you're not. No, you're not. No,

780
00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,519
you're not. It is retarded because so and so you're

781
00:39:43,559 --> 00:39:47,159
saying that he's an enemy of God when he's lauded

782
00:39:47,159 --> 00:39:49,000
for tithing to makiz dec in fourteen.

783
00:39:49,599 --> 00:39:51,480
Speaker 2: No, no, no, okay, yes you are saying that.

784
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 3: Why are you lying if he's if it's not, if

785
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,679
he's not saved, you are because if he's not saved

786
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,639
until Genesis fifteen, then he's still undergo wrath and an

787
00:40:00,719 --> 00:40:02,639
enemy of God in the protest position. What are you saying?

788
00:40:02,679 --> 00:40:03,920
On my goodness, that's your position?

789
00:40:05,119 --> 00:40:08,119
Speaker 7: Can I at least state what I was going to say?

790
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 3: Or you said that he's not saved until fifteen? That

791
00:40:11,519 --> 00:40:15,880
means in this story? That is that not what it

792
00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:19,159
means to be saved in the Protestant view? Okay, all right,

793
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:22,719
you're e're a liar You're so dishonest, man, You are

794
00:40:22,800 --> 00:40:26,679
being dishonest. Why are you even here doing this? It's

795
00:40:26,679 --> 00:40:31,320
just ridiculous, dude. So there you go. So Abraham is

796
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,960
over here tithing. He's lauded in Genesis in Hebrews eleven

797
00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:41,000
as a model of faith. After he goes to battle

798
00:40:41,039 --> 00:40:44,760
to save Lot in Genesis thirteen and he's lost in

799
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:47,480
all of this. How stupid the Protestant position is. And

800
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,679
then he plays victim. I've never done this. So he's

801
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,239
lauded as a model of faith in Hebrews eleven for

802
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,159
what he does in Genesis fourteen, but according to this

803
00:40:58,199 --> 00:41:03,320
guy's idiot Protestant argument, he's still not saved until Genesis fifteen.

804
00:41:05,159 --> 00:41:10,960
Speaker 15: Okay, I'm trying to understand some of the issues that

805
00:41:11,199 --> 00:41:13,800
you have with the.

806
00:41:14,159 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 2: Reformed or the Protestant world.

807
00:41:17,199 --> 00:41:22,239
Speaker 15: And am I right in understanding that your view is

808
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:31,639
specifically a rooted in epistemology, that the Church has determined

809
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:37,679
the canon or I guess I'm trying to figure out

810
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:41,519
how the ontological aspect.

811
00:41:42,599 --> 00:41:46,559
Speaker 2: Relates to that. If there's a.

812
00:41:48,559 --> 00:41:54,320
Speaker 15: If the Church determined scripture via the Holy Spirit, or

813
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:59,119
if the church is recognizing the canon in a passive sense,

814
00:42:00,480 --> 00:42:04,039
and it so much seems to hinge on that, and

815
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:07,119
I'm just looking for some clarify.

816
00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:08,639
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds like a lot of speculation, Like

817
00:42:08,679 --> 00:42:10,440
you don't think we can go and read the people

818
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:13,599
who determine the canon. So you're talking about active and passive,

819
00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,679
and like, so what the six Ecumentical Council, the people

820
00:42:17,679 --> 00:42:20,000
that wrote the Abstaltic Canons were passive? I mean that

821
00:42:20,039 --> 00:42:21,719
doesn't make any sense. What are you talking about?

822
00:42:23,559 --> 00:42:24,679
Speaker 2: Okay, so.

823
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 15: If you would recognize me as such, I was a

824
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:36,320
convert out of atheism. However, I wouldn't be recognized as Orthodox,

825
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:39,920
so you might dispute that. So when I come into it,

826
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,599
I've already come into a place where people are saying

827
00:42:42,639 --> 00:42:46,719
here's the canon, and then later I discovered the Orthodox

828
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,960
are saying, well, actually it's this. There's a few other

829
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:54,119
books involved, And so would I kind of come into it.

830
00:42:54,159 --> 00:42:57,360
I'm looking, Okay, why do the Protestants say this is

831
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:57,960
their canon?

832
00:42:58,519 --> 00:43:01,079
Speaker 2: Why do the Catholics say X this?

833
00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 3: In likewise, what are you talking about active and passive?

834
00:43:04,119 --> 00:43:05,559
I mean, I'm not trying to be mean, but like

835
00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:08,360
this whole history go.

836
00:43:08,360 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 15: Ahead, yes, because I what I was hearing from the

837
00:43:15,519 --> 00:43:20,000
reform position. That is, it sounds like they assert the

838
00:43:20,079 --> 00:43:24,760
ontological distinction first, that God determines scripture.

839
00:43:26,039 --> 00:43:29,400
Speaker 3: How do they know that these are assertions? I mean,

840
00:43:29,519 --> 00:43:32,599
I can cite you in church history specifically when and

841
00:43:32,639 --> 00:43:37,199
where the canon was discussed, debated, and determined. For example,

842
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,679
the Apostolic Canons, which most Protests don't even know what

843
00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:42,760
that is. The eighty fifth Apostolic Canon, for example, mentions

844
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:46,679
Maccabees and sirrric And when the QUINTESESX Council of six

845
00:43:46,880 --> 00:43:49,840
ninety two, which is affirmed at the Seventh Medical Council

846
00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,320
in seven eighty seven, mentions the canonical scriptures, It mentions

847
00:43:55,039 --> 00:43:58,960
the Apostholic Canons. Protestants don't know anything about that, and

848
00:43:59,000 --> 00:44:03,599
they never talk about that, almost never. So all of

849
00:44:03,599 --> 00:44:08,079
this assertion of active passive determined, I mean, this is

850
00:44:08,079 --> 00:44:11,119
all Protestant gibberish. I can tell you the exact places

851
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:13,920
where in the history of the Church these decisions were made.

852
00:44:16,400 --> 00:44:20,320
Speaker 15: Right right, and I wouldn't dispute that. But what seems

853
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:27,440
to be have taken place is that heterodox pressures seem

854
00:44:27,519 --> 00:44:32,519
to back the historical Church into a position of saying

855
00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,800
we must formally make this declaration.

856
00:44:36,440 --> 00:44:38,559
Speaker 3: And yeah, which means that they weren't operating on solar

857
00:44:38,559 --> 00:44:42,559
scripture prior to that, right, right.

858
00:44:43,440 --> 00:44:47,199
Speaker 15: From what I understand is that Protestants are arguing that

859
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:55,119
solar scripture is the recognized is the primary documents on

860
00:44:55,440 --> 00:45:00,760
apostolic authority, and so it almost sounds like it's just

861
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:04,119
a matter of method that these are the primary documents

862
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:10,280
by which we judge all subsequent tradition and dogma or

863
00:45:10,320 --> 00:45:11,639
anything based off of it.

864
00:45:12,599 --> 00:45:15,280
Speaker 2: And so they're always referring to.

865
00:45:15,199 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 15: This specific canon as the means by which we judge

866
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,320
all this. And so what I've come to learn is

867
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,519
that a lot of books that other traditions are saying

868
00:45:27,119 --> 00:45:28,559
should be included in the canon.

869
00:45:30,119 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 2: I've come to.

870
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:35,400
Speaker 15: It later as an understanding through Protestants that these are

871
00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:42,480
important documents, but that the canon is basically man's recognition

872
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,800
of something that's already onto logically prior so that the

873
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:50,159
authority of God.

874
00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:55,760
Speaker 3: Yeah. Point, So nobody is denying that the texts were

875
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,239
inspired and they have authority from God. The point is

876
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,719
that it's a post apostolic decision that's very late, that

877
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,719
involves human beings that Protestants think were fallen, fallible and

878
00:46:07,760 --> 00:46:10,400
didn't have the Gospel that made the decision of what

879
00:46:10,519 --> 00:46:12,880
makes up that canon. And it's not just that, it's

880
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,280
also you don't have a time machine to go back

881
00:46:15,360 --> 00:46:19,559
and get Paul's AUTOGRAPHA. You're trusting that those Apostolic sees

882
00:46:19,639 --> 00:46:25,079
and churches with absolute succession, those bishoprics preserved those Pauline

883
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:29,320
or gospel texts, which sometimes don't have their author listed,

884
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,679
like Matthew doesn't tell you who that is. How do

885
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:34,159
you know this is Matthew the Apostle. So you're relying

886
00:46:34,199 --> 00:46:37,199
on the tradition of those churches to preserve and hand

887
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,920
them down as part of canonicity, as well as things

888
00:46:41,079 --> 00:46:46,639
like liturgical inclusion. So it's missing the point to say that, well,

889
00:46:46,679 --> 00:46:50,800
the church is just recognizing what God inspired. Yeah, was

890
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,679
that recognition decision inspired or not? And this is why

891
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:58,400
Arci spol for example, says, oh, well, the Bible is

892
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,840
a fallible collection of infallible documents. And when we had

893
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,800
a Protestant here the other day when we were demanding this,

894
00:47:03,840 --> 00:47:05,559
he says, oh, yeah, it could be changed, it could

895
00:47:05,599 --> 00:47:08,119
be wrong. Oh, so the Word of God is subject

896
00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:11,679
to new discoveries as to what can be taken out

897
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,119
or perhaps added to, which means that the whole position

898
00:47:14,159 --> 00:47:14,800
is nonsense.

899
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:22,119
Speaker 15: Yes, And I think what you're saying is I largely

900
00:47:22,159 --> 00:47:26,639
agree with everything that you're saying. I guess I'm trying

901
00:47:26,679 --> 00:47:30,960
to just narrow the scope of the disagreement and I'm

902
00:47:30,960 --> 00:47:35,199
trying to figure it out because when I hear you

903
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:38,800
discuss it, it sounds good. It sounds like, yes, there's

904
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:44,880
this epistemological concern that that takes precedent, and I don't

905
00:47:44,920 --> 00:47:50,039
know if that provides a certain psychological.

906
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:54,480
Speaker 2: Security well okay, or or if if.

907
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 15: There's a an ontological priority and we're just not sure,

908
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:01,199
but we know that they're has to be this higher

909
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:07,320
divine recognition or is it impossible that we would have

910
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,519
failed to grasp the canon?

911
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,199
Speaker 3: I mean all of this, I mean the whole point

912
00:48:13,239 --> 00:48:15,599
has just become orthodox, Like what's all of this yappin

913
00:48:15,679 --> 00:48:17,960
and speculation about all this and that? Like what are

914
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:21,800
you talking about? Like it's the church historically determined the canon,

915
00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:23,840
and it is the Orthodox Church, and you can go

916
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:24,880
read those people.

917
00:48:26,599 --> 00:48:29,360
Speaker 2: And so you would equate all of the.

918
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:33,599
Speaker 15: All of the church history because when I when I

919
00:48:33,639 --> 00:48:37,760
read church history, I hate to say this, but it

920
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:39,119
almost seems a bit messy.

921
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 2: Uh.

922
00:48:40,039 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 15: There's guys that are saying this guy was a heretic

923
00:48:42,559 --> 00:48:46,199
on that position. And and so it seems to be

924
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,719
that the community is pretty broad. But the one thing

925
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,840
that seems to be central is they all have a

926
00:48:53,480 --> 00:49:02,039
deep reverence for scripture, even prior to a a complete

927
00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:03,760
it can and a formal recognize.

928
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, but that has nothing to doe in no way

929
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,159
does that prove the Protestant doctrine of sa scripture.

930
00:49:11,519 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 15: So maybe I'm misunderstanding the Protestant doctrine because it seemed.

931
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:19,119
Speaker 3: To be do you believe that it's a fallible collection

932
00:49:19,199 --> 00:49:20,119
of infallible books?

933
00:49:23,119 --> 00:49:24,119
Speaker 2: Yeah? You know.

934
00:49:24,320 --> 00:49:28,360
Speaker 15: To be honest, I'm not sure if it's a fallible collection.

935
00:49:28,639 --> 00:49:31,039
I seem to agree with the way it developed in

936
00:49:31,119 --> 00:49:31,800
church history.

937
00:49:32,119 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 3: So it's an infallible collection. So you would assign infallibility

938
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:38,920
to a decision of the church post apostles. That's not Protestant.

939
00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:44,000
Speaker 15: Well, I'm not a I don't know how to make

940
00:49:44,039 --> 00:49:48,199
that declaration of that firm commitment as to whether I

941
00:49:48,199 --> 00:49:50,679
think it was fallible or infallible collect.

942
00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:53,679
Speaker 3: Well, if it's not fallible, it must be infallible. There's

943
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:55,920
not a whole lot of options there is there between

944
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:56,360
those two.

945
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 15: They're mutually exclu I'm just not yeah, and I just

946
00:50:01,000 --> 00:50:04,280
don't feel comfortable saying one way or the other.

947
00:50:04,519 --> 00:50:05,440
Speaker 2: It seems like.

948
00:50:07,519 --> 00:50:11,079
Speaker 15: I don't see any reason how how are I don't

949
00:50:11,119 --> 00:50:11,800
have any.

950
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:16,280
Speaker 3: Okay, so uh to how it forms. If you don't

951
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,119
have an objection, then you don't have a problem with

952
00:50:18,199 --> 00:50:19,800
the Apostolic canons.

953
00:50:22,639 --> 00:50:23,280
Speaker 2: They are are.

954
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 15: I'm sorry, I would have to familiarize myself specifically with

955
00:50:29,519 --> 00:50:30,599
Apostolic canons.

956
00:50:31,719 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 3: So you're not familiar with that.

957
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:41,599
Speaker 15: Are you talking about a specific recognition like uh, a

958
00:50:41,639 --> 00:50:49,480
collection of documents? Yes, okay, unless maybe I'm misunderstanding the

959
00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:50,519
name or something.

960
00:50:54,280 --> 00:50:57,559
Speaker 3: Cannons are some of the earliest forms the collections of

961
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:02,079
church law. Canon law. Are not arguing that they're infallible

962
00:51:02,119 --> 00:51:05,079
because they're called Apostolic canons. I'm just pointing out that

963
00:51:05,159 --> 00:51:09,320
Canon eighty five is a list of the canonical texts

964
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:13,800
that the ancient Church in the fourth century considered canonical.

965
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:18,400
That list is what's cited at Trollo in six point

966
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,639
ninety two, which is normative for the Orthodox Church, and

967
00:51:21,679 --> 00:51:24,639
then Trollo is affirmed at the Seventh Ecumenical Council in

968
00:51:24,679 --> 00:51:28,320
seven eighty seven. So this is the basis for the

969
00:51:28,360 --> 00:51:33,280
canon of scriptures according to the Universal Ecumenical Catholic Church

970
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:39,519
in the first eight centuries. This right here, So perhaps

971
00:51:39,519 --> 00:51:43,559
we should familiarize ourselves with the Apostolic canons, because as

972
00:51:43,599 --> 00:51:45,960
I read through these, oh, it turns out this is

973
00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:57,039
all orthodox stuff. Presbyter bishop, deacon, episcopate, Eucharist, heretics, excommunicated Eucharist,

974
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:05,000
on and on and on, nothing to do with protestantsm

975
00:52:05,119 --> 00:52:10,159
And what's the eighty fifth canon? The list of the

976
00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:13,519
canonical scriptures, including the Dudro Canon, not the Protestant Canon.

977
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:18,679
Speaker 16: Where talking to a Protestant and they are like very

978
00:52:18,719 --> 00:52:21,079
adamant that like every single thing that we need to

979
00:52:21,159 --> 00:52:24,440
know about the Christian life and faith is in scripture

980
00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:27,039
and that we don't need like con traditions and stuff

981
00:52:27,039 --> 00:52:29,480
like that. How do you responded, at.

982
00:52:30,119 --> 00:52:32,440
Speaker 3: Well, if everything that we knew was in scripture, then

983
00:52:32,559 --> 00:52:35,480
the list of the canonical books would be in scripture.

984
00:52:36,519 --> 00:52:38,400
If everything that we needed to know was in scripture,

985
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:42,599
then we would have, you know, all of the later

986
00:52:43,639 --> 00:52:47,159
necessary doctrines that are formulated at like at Nica about

987
00:52:47,159 --> 00:52:50,000
the Trinity, the Dear Christ. They would have also been

988
00:52:50,039 --> 00:52:53,559
explicit in the scriptures, but they're not. So where was that,

989
00:52:53,599 --> 00:52:56,880
for example, where's the New Testament statement on how we

990
00:52:57,000 --> 00:53:00,880
worship explicitly in the church. We know from Leviticus when

991
00:53:00,920 --> 00:53:03,960
Nate and Abayehir are killed that God takes the worship

992
00:53:04,039 --> 00:53:08,639
very seriously. Uh so did he not tell us an

993
00:53:08,679 --> 00:53:11,320
actual pattern of liturgical worship in the New Testament? If

994
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:14,000
protestant Ism is true, that would be the first thing

995
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:17,079
that we have in the New Testament is a clear

996
00:53:17,199 --> 00:53:20,000
list of how we're supposed to worship. And yet there

997
00:53:20,119 --> 00:53:25,000
is no liturgical pattern explicitly given in the New Testament.

998
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,280
Has never occurred to a Protestant. God's willing to kill

999
00:53:28,360 --> 00:53:30,880
Nate and Abahu over this question, but he doesn't even

1000
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:34,800
give the church an actual pattern of worship. Were no, dude.

1001
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:37,199
Speaker 13: They were supposed to go into the church, the house

1002
00:53:37,280 --> 00:53:39,159
church bro and they were supposed to make it up

1003
00:53:39,199 --> 00:53:41,960
and get a smoke machine in the laser lights, and

1004
00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:44,199
did a Paul the apostle went and got a bunch

1005
00:53:44,199 --> 00:53:46,159
of the laser lights, and he put it into the

1006
00:53:46,199 --> 00:53:49,960
house church. And they was doing whatever they wanted dude.

1007
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,519
Speaker 3: That was my boomer evangelical voice.

1008
00:53:52,239 --> 00:53:57,079
Speaker 17: There, so hi ja hey, I wanted to ask a

1009
00:53:57,159 --> 00:54:01,559
couple of questions. So I was taught by my prof

1010
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:05,239
that in Saint John of Vaskin's work on Holy images,

1011
00:54:05,679 --> 00:54:08,760
he states that the saints are present inside the icons.

1012
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:11,760
This so implied that the saints are actually omni present,

1013
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:14,599
because you could have like multiple images of Saint Luke

1014
00:54:14,639 --> 00:54:16,840
and he would be in all of these icons. So

1015
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,000
my question would be, can only holy beings or I

1016
00:54:20,039 --> 00:54:22,960
guess like elohem is probably the best word to describe it,

1017
00:54:23,039 --> 00:54:23,920
be omni present.

1018
00:54:24,519 --> 00:54:27,920
Speaker 3: So the saints are deified, and so they're present via

1019
00:54:28,199 --> 00:54:32,280
the divine energies because they're divide. So they're not present

1020
00:54:33,559 --> 00:54:37,559
because they're God in a natural in a sense of

1021
00:54:37,559 --> 00:54:40,000
divine nature, but they participate in the divine energies, which

1022
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:42,440
allows them to be deified, which allows them to be

1023
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:46,159
in a mystical way present. And that's why if you

1024
00:54:46,199 --> 00:54:49,239
read Revelation five through nine, when John seas into heaven

1025
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,119
on the Lord's Day, he's on earth, but he's in

1026
00:54:52,159 --> 00:54:55,320
the presence of the heavenly liturgy. So we believe that

1027
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,519
the liturgy is heaven on Earth literally, and God is

1028
00:54:59,519 --> 00:55:02,360
able to do that because he's God and he can

1029
00:55:02,440 --> 00:55:05,400
bring heaven down to earth and the incarnation. So no,

1030
00:55:05,519 --> 00:55:09,320
it's not omnipresence to be in the outside of time

1031
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:09,800
and space.

1032
00:55:12,920 --> 00:55:15,199
Speaker 17: So what do you mean by I'm just confused by

1033
00:55:15,199 --> 00:55:17,960
what you mean by deified? Like they they're given like

1034
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,639
a not a godhood necessarily.

1035
00:55:20,119 --> 00:55:24,280
Speaker 3: But like well, Jesus says in Jesus says in John

1036
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:27,079
seventeen that he came to give us a share, a

1037
00:55:27,119 --> 00:55:29,639
real participation in the glory that he had with the

1038
00:55:29,679 --> 00:55:32,480
Father before the foundation of the world. Jesus says, I

1039
00:55:32,519 --> 00:55:35,960
have said ye are gods to the Pharisees, and Peter

1040
00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:38,639
says that we've become partakers of the divine nature. So

1041
00:55:39,360 --> 00:55:42,320
that's deification. Thats theosis you really do become immortal.

1042
00:55:45,000 --> 00:55:47,639
Speaker 2: Okay, I guess I'm just confused between what you mean by.

1043
00:55:47,559 --> 00:55:54,079
Speaker 17: Like immortal versus like the understanding of like being in

1044
00:55:54,159 --> 00:55:55,400
multiple places at once.

1045
00:55:55,599 --> 00:55:57,320
Speaker 2: For me, I guess would confuse me.

1046
00:55:57,519 --> 00:56:01,400
Speaker 3: So again, are the saints in heaven on earth or not?

1047
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:04,880
In Revelation five to nine, Huh, they're not.

1048
00:56:05,360 --> 00:56:06,079
Speaker 6: They're not on earth.

1049
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:09,559
Speaker 3: I don't remember. Well, how is there an altar on

1050
00:56:09,679 --> 00:56:11,719
earth in Hebrews thirteen.

1051
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:14,679
Speaker 2: So they're in heaven.

1052
00:56:15,679 --> 00:56:18,119
Speaker 3: Heaven comes down to earth in the liturgy. That's what

1053
00:56:18,119 --> 00:56:23,280
I'm trying to say. Oh, okay, When John in Revelations

1054
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:26,559
five to nine is praying in the spirit on the

1055
00:56:26,559 --> 00:56:29,920
Lord's Day, he's doing the liturgy and he sees into

1056
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,880
heaven and he sees the heavenly liturgy opened up. That

1057
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:37,599
he's in heaven. So Heaven comes down to us in

1058
00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:39,440
the liturgy, and that's how the saints are present.

1059
00:56:42,039 --> 00:56:44,639
Speaker 17: Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I'm still kind

1060
00:56:44,679 --> 00:56:45,960
of confused, but it's okay.

1061
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 2: I have to read more.

1062
00:56:46,960 --> 00:56:50,039
Speaker 3: So we'll read Revelation five through nine and think about

1063
00:56:50,079 --> 00:56:54,840
that as the heavenly worship service being also on earth.

1064
00:56:55,199 --> 00:56:57,840
We are raised up into heaven. This incarnation, the incarnation,

1065
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,159
brings Heaven to earth and us into heaven. Heaven is

1066
00:57:01,159 --> 00:57:03,679
already here, so it's now the Kingdom of God is

1067
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,719
on earth. It's the church, it's the liturgy. So when

1068
00:57:07,719 --> 00:57:09,320
Paul says, and he was thirteen, that we have an

1069
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:12,599
altar that we eat from, that the people who serve

1070
00:57:12,639 --> 00:57:15,440
the tabernacle have no right to eat, he's saying that's

1071
00:57:15,480 --> 00:57:17,840
the same altar. What I'm arguing is that that's the

1072
00:57:17,880 --> 00:57:20,880
same altar that John sees in heaven when he sees

1073
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,039
the Lamb slain in heaven. Why is there a lamb

1074
00:57:23,079 --> 00:57:27,440
slain in heaven? When John sees that if Protestantism is true,

1075
00:57:27,880 --> 00:57:32,159
the sacrifice is already complete. Bro there's no continuation of

1076
00:57:32,199 --> 00:57:37,079
that or perpetuation of that. But yet John sees into

1077
00:57:37,079 --> 00:57:39,320
heaven and he sees the Lamb slain in heaven, and

1078
00:57:39,360 --> 00:57:41,960
he sees an altar, and he sees saints praying for

1079
00:57:42,000 --> 00:57:45,079
the Church on earth. There's saints under the altar praying

1080
00:57:45,159 --> 00:57:48,199
for the saints, the offering the prayers of the saints

1081
00:57:48,239 --> 00:57:52,920
on earth to God. Do you understand when I'm talking

1082
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:53,400
about or not?

1083
00:57:54,519 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 15: Uh?

1084
00:57:55,480 --> 00:57:56,119
Speaker 2: Oh yeah?

1085
00:57:56,400 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 17: Kind of, it's I don't know.

1086
00:58:00,960 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 3: What I'm saying is that in Hebrews thirteen, Paul talks

1087
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:08,039
about there being an alter on earth where we eat,

1088
00:58:08,320 --> 00:58:11,280
and I'm saying that that's the same alter that's in

1089
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:16,920
heaven in the Book of Revelation that John sees. You're

1090
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,159
not you don't understand what I'm saying.

1091
00:58:19,199 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 17: I mean, kind of the thing that I'm kind of

1092
00:58:21,440 --> 00:58:24,239
fogging on is whether, like heaven is on earth right now,

1093
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,079
because when you hear like, oh, he will wipe every

1094
00:58:27,639 --> 00:58:30,800
tear from their eye, people still weep today, and so

1095
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:31,400
how can.

1096
00:58:31,320 --> 00:58:33,639
Speaker 3: We That doesn't mean that, right, And that's why Paul

1097
00:58:33,719 --> 00:58:36,679
says that even though he ascended, we do not yet

1098
00:58:36,719 --> 00:58:39,519
see all things subjected to him. In Corinthians, so there's

1099
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:43,480
a process of working this out in history even though

1100
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:44,760
the work is already complete.

1101
00:58:48,159 --> 00:58:50,239
Speaker 2: Okay, Or does Paul say that.

1102
00:58:53,400 --> 00:58:56,519
Speaker 3: Right now our first Corinthian. I'm going for a memory

1103
00:58:56,519 --> 00:59:00,400
of first Corinthians. Right now we see we do not

1104
00:59:00,480 --> 00:59:03,360
yet see all things subjected to him even though he

1105
00:59:03,559 --> 00:59:12,559
is ascended. Is it first Greendi is fifteen Okay?

1106
00:59:12,679 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 17: Yeah, I was just wondering because my prophet is basically

1107
00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:16,519
talking first.

1108
00:59:16,639 --> 00:59:19,639
Speaker 3: Is fifteen twenty eight. We all now when all things

1109
00:59:19,639 --> 00:59:24,159
are made subject to him. Excuse me, it's Hebrews too,

1110
00:59:24,199 --> 00:59:27,199
where he says that even though all things are subject

1111
00:59:27,239 --> 00:59:29,519
to him, we do not yet see all things in

1112
00:59:29,639 --> 00:59:32,599
history subjected to him. But all things are subjected to

1113
00:59:32,679 --> 00:59:37,000
him when he rose on the cross instead of the

1114
00:59:37,079 --> 00:59:38,599
right hand of the father, so he began to reign

1115
00:59:38,639 --> 00:59:39,880
when he ascended, right.

1116
00:59:41,239 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 17: Yeah, Okay, that makes a bit more sense. I think

1117
00:59:46,079 --> 00:59:48,960
my prop was just really throwing me off because we

1118
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:53,639
were learning about how basically in Mesopotamia they believe that

1119
00:59:54,159 --> 00:59:55,679
God would reside.

1120
00:59:55,280 --> 00:59:57,599
Speaker 2: In an idol that you made, and then she made.

1121
00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 17: The illusion that the Orthodox believe the same thing, and

1122
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:04,280
therefore it's like incongruent because of the fact that you

1123
01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:08,760
can't have like multiple idols of a human, and then

1124
01:00:09,159 --> 01:00:12,559
there would be the human would literally be inside the idol,

1125
01:00:12,599 --> 01:00:15,800
and then that would cause that made me a little

1126
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:17,079
confused because it was like what the heck.

1127
01:00:18,039 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 3: So well, even in the Old Testament, if you read

1128
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,400
the Benjamin Summer book, he admits that the Old Testament

1129
01:00:22,519 --> 01:00:26,440
shows that there's a fluidity to the bodies and the

1130
01:00:26,440 --> 01:00:28,840
embodiment of God throughout the Old Testament, in terms of

1131
01:00:29,119 --> 01:00:32,320
the Theophanes, even to the point of multiple objects in

1132
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:35,360
the Old Testament like the oak of Mammary or like

1133
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,679
the stone that's anointed that Jacob Laze's head on, like

1134
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,920
all of these are examples of sacramental things even in

1135
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:45,519
the Old Testament, so that's preposterous. And even in terms

1136
01:00:45,559 --> 01:00:46,760
of the Old Covenant.

1137
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,199
Speaker 17: Well, basically the argument was that God, although he was

1138
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,880
kind of omnipresent. In the beginning, he began to reside

1139
01:00:55,880 --> 01:00:59,079
in the tabernacle, and now he resides in the uchurs,

1140
01:00:59,119 --> 01:01:01,400
which I don't necessarily fully believe because I think he's

1141
01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:02,599
entirely omnipresent.

1142
01:01:02,599 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 2: But he's also literally inside the euchurs as well. So

1143
01:01:05,519 --> 01:01:06,119
it's just.

1144
01:01:06,119 --> 01:01:10,559
Speaker 3: Really this is false either oars. So yeah, I mean,

1145
01:01:10,599 --> 01:01:13,639
I'll let you talk. Just second, father Digon, so false either, oars,

1146
01:01:13,679 --> 01:01:16,599
Because Jesus didn't cease to be omniscient if you read

1147
01:01:16,639 --> 01:01:20,440
Philippians too, when he engaged in the canosis, right, So

1148
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:23,920
the Philippins, who's the canosis passes where he willfully limits

1149
01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:27,679
himself to be in a mode of being born as

1150
01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:30,519
a humans, as a man. Right, So he's in the

1151
01:01:30,559 --> 01:01:33,280
form of God, Paul says in Philippins, Who's he never

1152
01:01:33,360 --> 01:01:36,360
ceases to be divine or loses on the presence, but

1153
01:01:36,559 --> 01:01:40,159
he's in a special mode of his presence in the incarnation.

1154
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:42,360
And it's the same with the church or the sacraments.

1155
01:01:42,679 --> 01:01:43,320
Go ahead, father.

1156
01:01:43,239 --> 01:01:45,480
Speaker 2: Digon, Well, I was gonna say.

1157
01:01:45,599 --> 01:01:49,039
Speaker 11: Even just kind of Greek metaphysics, he can get an idea.

1158
01:01:49,679 --> 01:01:53,960
For example, there's one form of triangle writing triangle or

1159
01:01:54,039 --> 01:01:59,199
something like that that transcends space and times, let's say it.

1160
01:02:00,599 --> 01:02:03,840
But there's many instances of that one form in particular

1161
01:02:04,679 --> 01:02:07,440
material in stantiations, which is kind of like you were saying,

1162
01:02:07,519 --> 01:02:08,159
like the mode.

1163
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 2: So this is why it's really important.

1164
01:02:11,159 --> 01:02:15,639
Speaker 11: It's not completely analogous, but this is why it's really important,

1165
01:02:15,719 --> 01:02:19,320
whether it's what you were talking with the individual prior

1166
01:02:19,559 --> 01:02:25,360
or this a notion of kind of Greek metaphysics and

1167
01:02:25,440 --> 01:02:26,639
philosophy kind of.

1168
01:02:28,079 --> 01:02:32,639
Speaker 2: It breaks up and clears the way from these things

1169
01:02:32,679 --> 01:02:35,039
being kind of hang ups. Do you see what I'm saying.

1170
01:02:36,119 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 11: So what I'm saying is that that particular triangle, even

1171
01:02:39,519 --> 01:02:42,880
though there's one form of triangle, doesn't mean that the

1172
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:44,599
triangle itself.

1173
01:02:44,199 --> 01:02:46,920
Speaker 2: Is omni present. Does that make sense?

1174
01:02:48,719 --> 01:02:48,840
Speaker 16: Uh?

1175
01:02:49,719 --> 01:02:50,679
Speaker 2: Yeah, sort of.

1176
01:02:51,440 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 3: So there's many triangles, right, they're all triangles. That doesn't

1177
01:02:55,440 --> 01:02:59,360
mean triangle is omnipresence, right yeah.

1178
01:02:59,599 --> 01:03:03,559
Speaker 17: Okay, Well, because I believe that christis in the Eucharist,

1179
01:03:03,599 --> 01:03:06,880
and also God can be outside of the eu Christ.

1180
01:03:06,719 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 2: At the same time too, But like obviously.

1181
01:03:09,519 --> 01:03:11,880
Speaker 17: My prophe is kind of out to lunch on some things,

1182
01:03:12,039 --> 01:03:18,039
which is okay, but yeah, that was just what really

1183
01:03:18,039 --> 01:03:20,599
confused me about it. Because saints, at the end of

1184
01:03:20,639 --> 01:03:22,440
the day are human and not God.

1185
01:03:22,519 --> 01:03:23,199
Speaker 18: So I want to.

1186
01:03:24,800 --> 01:03:26,119
Speaker 2: Another either or jam.

1187
01:03:26,199 --> 01:03:33,719
Speaker 11: I always bring this up that Christ is God in

1188
01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,800
one sense, is on the presence, right, he transcends all

1189
01:03:37,840 --> 01:03:41,400
space and time, is the divine person and having the

1190
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:47,599
divine essence. But Christ walking on the road to in

1191
01:03:47,719 --> 01:03:49,960
Jerusalem is not.

1192
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:56,480
Speaker 2: In essence. Do you see what I mean? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

1193
01:03:57,320 --> 01:04:02,079
So it's it makes this kind of either or it's like, well,

1194
01:04:02,119 --> 01:04:04,079
he has a special mode in.

1195
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:09,800
Speaker 11: The physical person of Jesus of Nazareth such that he

1196
01:04:10,039 --> 01:04:13,079
is actually in Jerusalem and not in athletes well, at

1197
01:04:13,119 --> 01:04:16,840
the same time, in a different respect, because he's divined,

1198
01:04:17,079 --> 01:04:24,320
he is omnipresent, and so likewise with the saints too,

1199
01:04:24,519 --> 01:04:28,000
is that yeah, there's a physical but they're also united

1200
01:04:29,880 --> 01:04:34,440
with with God, and so they have properties that would

1201
01:04:34,440 --> 01:04:39,199
transcend normal physical properties.

1202
01:04:40,159 --> 01:04:42,800
Speaker 2: Being in the particular icon or when they were living,

1203
01:04:42,800 --> 01:04:43,280
et cetera.

1204
01:04:43,480 --> 01:04:46,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, again, Revelation five through nine, you'll see that the

1205
01:04:46,480 --> 01:04:49,039
saints on earth are aware of and know what's going

1206
01:04:49,079 --> 01:04:51,719
on with the Church militant the Church on earth, and

1207
01:04:51,760 --> 01:04:55,519
they pray for them. So again it's the Bible itself

1208
01:04:55,519 --> 01:04:58,079
that's telling us that the saints in heaven are involved

1209
01:04:58,119 --> 01:05:00,800
in the earthly worship of the Church and know what's

1210
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:04,320
going on, and so Protestants yourself typically think of the

1211
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:07,199
Book of Revelation as a liturgical book or that is,

1212
01:05:07,239 --> 01:05:09,440
describing an actual heavenly worship service.

1213
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:14,440
Speaker 19: I was raised Protestant, and I've gone to some Orthodox churches,

1214
01:05:14,480 --> 01:05:19,960
and the most difficult thing for me to logically reconcile

1215
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:24,800
is the involvement of Mary or the Theotokos and the

1216
01:05:24,800 --> 01:05:29,679
principle of intercession. I guess my feeling about it, or

1217
01:05:29,679 --> 01:05:34,000
the way that I interpret that, is that it seems

1218
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:38,599
like it implies a kind of lackadaisicalness about God, or

1219
01:05:38,599 --> 01:05:43,480
that his judgment or decisions to you know, affect somebody's

1220
01:05:43,559 --> 01:05:48,480
life could be changed through the kind of like willful

1221
01:05:48,559 --> 01:05:51,639
suggestion of this other being.

1222
01:05:51,800 --> 01:05:54,239
Speaker 3: I mean, does that not happen in the Old Testament

1223
01:05:54,280 --> 01:05:57,440
when God tells Amos that had you not interceded for Israel,

1224
01:05:57,519 --> 01:05:59,639
I would have destroyed them. But because you're my friend

1225
01:05:59,679 --> 01:06:02,519
and I respect you, you interceded for Israel. I choose

1226
01:06:02,519 --> 01:06:05,840
to answer your prayers. So it's that God wills to

1227
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:09,679
descend to or seem me to condescend to respond reciprocally

1228
01:06:09,719 --> 01:06:11,920
to our prayers. And I just pointed out to the

1229
01:06:11,920 --> 01:06:14,599
previous girl. Revelation five or nine shows the saints in

1230
01:06:14,639 --> 01:06:17,320
heaven praying for the Church on earth. God wills to

1231
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:20,400
hear their prayers their incense offered in heaven up to him.

1232
01:06:20,760 --> 01:06:23,239
The angels are offering the incense of the prayers. So

1233
01:06:24,000 --> 01:06:26,559
it's a false assumption that it's either or, as if

1234
01:06:26,599 --> 01:06:31,079
God could only do it through direct causal action, like

1235
01:06:31,159 --> 01:06:34,679
he can't will to interact with human beings. I mean,

1236
01:06:34,679 --> 01:06:37,239
God could have chosen to not have any apostles and

1237
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:39,480
just sent down a book like Muslims think or something.

1238
01:06:39,679 --> 01:06:41,840
But he chose and said to have apostles. And Paul

1239
01:06:41,920 --> 01:06:44,239
says that he's a co worker with Christ. Is that

1240
01:06:44,320 --> 01:06:47,599
Paul detracting from God's glory because he's a coworker.

1241
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 19: If that were the case, I guess I'm just curious

1242
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,920
when it says that no one comes to the Father

1243
01:06:54,000 --> 01:06:57,440
except through me, I guess that's somewhat in reference to

1244
01:06:57,719 --> 01:06:59,760
salvation or something like that.

1245
01:06:59,679 --> 01:07:03,039
Speaker 3: But it well, all the all the saints are part

1246
01:07:03,079 --> 01:07:05,480
of the Communion of Saints, and so they're coming to

1247
01:07:05,639 --> 01:07:11,079
God through Christ. As well, So it's not apart from Christ.

1248
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 19: What do you mean, I guess I mean, like us

1249
01:07:15,559 --> 01:07:18,320
as people who are not saints, just regular people.

1250
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:21,559
Speaker 2: It seems odd to have like.

1251
01:07:21,719 --> 01:07:27,679
Speaker 19: A alternative route to have your life, like again improved

1252
01:07:27,760 --> 01:07:31,800
upon or something, given that one particular verse like no

1253
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:33,519
one comes to the Father except through me.

1254
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,440
Speaker 3: So does that verse exclude all the other verses? I mean?

1255
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:40,400
And when in Revelation eight, when the angels are offering

1256
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:44,239
the prayers of the saints, is that contradicting the verse

1257
01:07:44,280 --> 01:07:45,719
in John fourteen six?

1258
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:48,840
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. That's why I called in,

1259
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:50,119
Like I said, this is this is a.

1260
01:07:50,079 --> 01:07:53,440
Speaker 3: Little we don't take one verse and we don't. So

1261
01:07:53,559 --> 01:07:56,360
it's a Protestant heretical approach to take one verse and

1262
01:07:56,400 --> 01:07:58,960
squeeze all the other texts into that one. You have

1263
01:07:58,960 --> 01:08:00,239
to harmonize all the texts.

1264
01:08:01,079 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 2: Right, Okay? Because salvation's the source of salvation, is the

1265
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:10,480
Trinity a triadic.

1266
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:16,680
Speaker 11: That that's going to that that notion of community is

1267
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:18,279
going to be played.

1268
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:18,920
Speaker 2: Out in the world too.

1269
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:24,640
Speaker 11: You're going to see salvation triadically within a community in

1270
01:08:24,800 --> 01:08:28,760
people too, and not just two people or you know,

1271
01:08:28,880 --> 01:08:33,119
one or one cause let's say, well, it's just it's

1272
01:08:33,199 --> 01:08:33,720
just God.

1273
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:37,079
Speaker 2: So I would I would say, it's this.

1274
01:08:37,159 --> 01:08:41,159
Speaker 11: Notion of just me and Jesus is actually anti trinitarian.

1275
01:08:41,800 --> 01:08:45,159
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's a great point, is it's not trinitarian. Also,

1276
01:08:45,319 --> 01:08:48,520
it's like when Paul says to Timothy, you know, if

1277
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,760
you act well, you will save those around you.

1278
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:50,960
Speaker 17: All.

1279
01:08:51,039 --> 01:08:54,039
Speaker 3: I guess he's distracting from the salvation in Christ. Paul's

1280
01:08:54,119 --> 01:08:57,760
telling that that Timothy is an idol because he saves

1281
01:08:57,760 --> 01:09:01,720
people and Christ doesn't. No, it's obviously it means through Christ,

1282
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:06,199
your co workers with God, Paul says. Paul even says

1283
01:09:06,199 --> 01:09:08,600
that he fills up in his body the measure of

1284
01:09:08,600 --> 01:09:10,560
what is lacking in the suffering of Christ.

1285
01:09:16,319 --> 01:09:20,119
Speaker 8: So I've got an argument with a couple of scriptures,

1286
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:26,520
an analogy to illustrate the point, a specific relevant historical event,

1287
01:09:27,159 --> 01:09:30,399
and a follow up question and a bonus question. So

1288
01:09:30,439 --> 01:09:31,920
if I could, I like to go through all of

1289
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:36,439
that and then get your feedback. So the argument would

1290
01:09:36,479 --> 01:09:42,000
be that the normative authority of the churches has limits. Specifically,

1291
01:09:43,039 --> 01:09:45,960
the churches do not have the authority to remove other

1292
01:09:46,039 --> 01:09:51,880
churches from the church. The analogy would be the churches

1293
01:09:51,920 --> 01:09:55,199
are parts of the body. Christ is the head of

1294
01:09:55,199 --> 01:09:58,880
the body. The right arm cannot decide to remove the

1295
01:09:58,960 --> 01:10:02,680
left arm. Only the head can decide to remove a

1296
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:07,479
part of the body. A couple of scriptures Matthew sixteen eighteen,

1297
01:10:07,960 --> 01:10:12,319
I will build my church Revelation two five. If you

1298
01:10:12,359 --> 01:10:14,840
do not repent, I will come to you and remove

1299
01:10:14,880 --> 01:10:20,960
your landscane. Specific historical event that's relevant be the counsel

1300
01:10:21,279 --> 01:10:25,159
of Chalcedon. So, with regards to being in or out

1301
01:10:25,159 --> 01:10:28,880
of the body, what is the condition of the Coptic

1302
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:34,800
Christians immediately after Chalcedon? Specifically, are Christians who have no

1303
01:10:34,840 --> 01:10:38,399
idea of this meeting impacted by way of their bishop?

1304
01:10:39,159 --> 01:10:42,840
And are Christians who do not understand the distinction impacted

1305
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:43,960
by their ignorance?

1306
01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:50,119
Speaker 2: I could do follow up question or keep going, all right.

1307
01:10:50,119 --> 01:10:53,720
Speaker 3: First of all, it's a false analogy that because Paul

1308
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:56,359
says to the Corinthians that the hand can't say to

1309
01:10:56,439 --> 01:10:58,359
the arm or eyes or whatever. I don't need you

1310
01:10:58,520 --> 01:11:02,600
to equate that to no normative authority excommunicating anybody in

1311
01:11:02,640 --> 01:11:06,039
the universal Church. That doesn't follow from that. The only

1312
01:11:06,079 --> 01:11:10,359
ways by which people would be excommunicated is by living authorities.

1313
01:11:10,359 --> 01:11:13,000
Who have the ability to excommunicate, which actually Paul says

1314
01:11:13,000 --> 01:11:16,319
to the Corinthians put out of the church those who

1315
01:11:16,319 --> 01:11:19,760
are disobedient and act unruly. So Paul actually tells the

1316
01:11:19,800 --> 01:11:23,239
Church of corinth that they can and should excommunicate certain people.

1317
01:11:23,520 --> 01:11:27,079
The Church consistently does excommunicate people from the first century

1318
01:11:27,119 --> 01:11:30,960
to the third century, including local synods that talk about excommunication,

1319
01:11:31,039 --> 01:11:35,399
including the Apostolic Canons which mentioned multiple things which are

1320
01:11:35,600 --> 01:11:39,399
liable to excommunicate people. So it would really make no

1321
01:11:39,520 --> 01:11:42,159
sense with all that data to take the text about

1322
01:11:42,239 --> 01:11:44,119
the hands saying to the arm I don't need you,

1323
01:11:44,479 --> 01:11:48,319
and to apply that to there's no such thing as

1324
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:52,359
excommunication in terms of normative authority. The Council of Nicea

1325
01:11:52,439 --> 01:11:55,399
certainly thought that they had normative authority to excommunicate the Arians.

1326
01:11:55,840 --> 01:11:59,399
So again, I don't think that follows from Nicia. You

1327
01:11:59,600 --> 01:12:02,479
raise a question about whether or not God would hold

1328
01:12:02,479 --> 01:12:05,840
everybody accountable who didn't know what their bishops were up

1329
01:12:05,840 --> 01:12:08,039
to or never heard of calciton. No, I don't think

1330
01:12:08,079 --> 01:12:10,760
that everybody who the day the calclon happened, like it's

1331
01:12:10,760 --> 01:12:13,720
a blackout and suddenly they all are without grace and

1332
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:15,840
damned because they had no idea what was going on.

1333
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:19,760
God's not a being counter He's not a weird legalist

1334
01:12:19,880 --> 01:12:22,840
like that. I think that just like, for example, with

1335
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:25,520
the Roman Catholic Church, I don't believe that everybody in

1336
01:12:25,520 --> 01:12:27,880
the Latin West is automatically damned in ten fifty four.

1337
01:12:29,079 --> 01:12:30,880
They had no idea what was going on. They didn't

1338
01:12:30,920 --> 01:12:34,560
immediately all adopt a double eternal hypostatic procession that takes

1339
01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:38,159
many centuries to actually filter out into the totality of

1340
01:12:38,199 --> 01:12:40,520
the Roman Catholic West. So no, I think that even

1341
01:12:40,600 --> 01:12:43,000
up into very late there were probably many people during

1342
01:12:43,000 --> 01:12:46,720
those time periods in the West who are saints and

1343
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,159
who are in heaven. We may not necessarily have them

1344
01:12:49,199 --> 01:12:53,000
as part of our Orthodox liturgical calendar, but that doesn't

1345
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:56,760
mean that they're not in heaven. So multiple different questions

1346
01:12:56,800 --> 01:12:59,000
and sort of positions that are I think a little

1347
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:02,159
conflated going on that argument. So I'm not sure what

1348
01:13:02,319 --> 01:13:04,680
that had to do with Postcalcidon.

1349
01:13:06,640 --> 01:13:09,520
Speaker 8: Yeah, that was just, you know, an analogy to maybe

1350
01:13:09,920 --> 01:13:14,399
illustrate the point, but you definitely got the point. Follow

1351
01:13:14,479 --> 01:13:18,079
up question, if I may are there limits to normitive

1352
01:13:18,079 --> 01:13:21,439
authority regarding ex communication of any kind based.

1353
01:13:21,239 --> 01:13:21,800
Speaker 2: On what you just said.

1354
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:24,079
Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, I mean did John Crystalson was an he

1355
01:13:24,479 --> 01:13:28,840
sent out of Oak? He was falsely excommunicated. So yeah,

1356
01:13:28,840 --> 01:13:31,880
that doesn't mean that everything a local bishop does is

1357
01:13:31,920 --> 01:13:36,640
going to be right or authoritative, I mean right or infallible, should.

1358
01:13:36,399 --> 01:13:38,840
Speaker 2: Say, I guess I'm thinking more like.

1359
01:13:40,680 --> 01:13:45,520
Speaker 8: Not specific ex communications, but more like wholesale.

1360
01:13:47,239 --> 01:13:49,239
Speaker 2: You know, what do you mean this this whole church?

1361
01:13:49,279 --> 01:13:53,079
Speaker 8: Like you mentioned the Arian thing, but specifically like Chalcedon.

1362
01:13:53,159 --> 01:14:01,199
It's a disagreement about Christology, I guess. And so I

1363
01:14:01,199 --> 01:14:07,800
guess is there a principle in play? Where is there

1364
01:14:07,840 --> 01:14:12,239
a principle that guides what's valid excommunication and what would

1365
01:14:12,279 --> 01:14:18,039
be invalid excommunication? Like things Christology is definitely grounds for

1366
01:14:18,119 --> 01:14:23,039
ex communication, practice of ordination is not grounds like is

1367
01:14:23,039 --> 01:14:25,119
there kind of a guiding principle there of things that

1368
01:14:25,600 --> 01:14:26,600
escalate to that level.

1369
01:14:27,239 --> 01:14:29,039
Speaker 3: I don't know what you mean by practice of ordination?

1370
01:14:29,279 --> 01:14:30,560
What I mean just.

1371
01:14:30,520 --> 01:14:33,880
Speaker 2: A random example? I mean it could be. So.

1372
01:14:34,159 --> 01:14:37,279
Speaker 3: I think that the way it's supposed to work is

1373
01:14:37,680 --> 01:14:42,560
that an Orthodox bishop is the highest authority strictly speaking,

1374
01:14:42,720 --> 01:14:45,560
and he interprets the canons for the churches under his

1375
01:14:45,640 --> 01:14:51,159
jurisdiction and applies those rules in an informed, wise way,

1376
01:14:51,279 --> 01:14:55,720
not an illegalistic, rigid way, but in a way that

1377
01:14:56,000 --> 01:14:59,479
is for the best of the flock and for their salvation.

1378
01:14:59,680 --> 01:15:02,560
So could he abuse it? Yes, there could be an

1379
01:15:02,560 --> 01:15:05,880
abusive bishop, but I think the idea is that eventually

1380
01:15:06,079 --> 01:15:08,840
it would be rectified in time, that God would vindicate

1381
01:15:08,880 --> 01:15:14,000
those who were wrong. For example, Chrysostom's erroneous condemnation by

1382
01:15:14,000 --> 01:15:19,079
the Senate of the Oak or whatever. Eventually he gets vindicated.

1383
01:15:20,199 --> 01:15:22,279
So beyond that, I don't know how to answer the

1384
01:15:22,359 --> 01:15:26,239
question of like, how what the extents of a bishop's

1385
01:15:26,359 --> 01:15:28,920
errors could be. I mean they could be anything from

1386
01:15:28,920 --> 01:15:34,159
heresy to incorrectly you know, interpreting the cannons. I mean,

1387
01:15:34,199 --> 01:15:36,560
all those things are Father, Deacon, you're you're a deacon.

1388
01:15:36,800 --> 01:15:39,720
How would you how would you answer this question about

1389
01:15:40,079 --> 01:15:44,720
the limits to normative authority amongst bishops and synods?

1390
01:15:46,640 --> 01:15:48,479
Speaker 2: Could you say, dis repeat it against her?

1391
01:15:48,520 --> 01:15:51,520
Speaker 11: I was writing that, I was writing three different arguments

1392
01:15:51,520 --> 01:15:54,600
to three different people, three different times.

1393
01:15:55,640 --> 01:15:58,039
Speaker 2: My quantum.

1394
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:01,520
Speaker 3: Ask Father Dicon. He's had much more involvement with bishops

1395
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:03,800
and clergy than I have, so he would be much

1396
01:16:03,800 --> 01:16:05,199
better for this question. Than me.

1397
01:16:05,520 --> 01:16:07,520
Speaker 2: I think, I think, I think I know what you're

1398
01:16:07,520 --> 01:16:10,359
saying about. Go ahead, So yeah, it would just be

1399
01:16:11,600 --> 01:16:14,479
limits to normative authority. I think I understand.

1400
01:16:14,560 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 8: You know, within a jurisdiction, the bishop is the authority

1401
01:16:19,520 --> 01:16:22,680
that decide what happens.

1402
01:16:22,319 --> 01:16:26,520
Speaker 2: And then your local bishop. Yeah. If if a whole.

1403
01:16:28,000 --> 01:16:33,520
Speaker 8: Congregation under a bishop is collectively an error, then the

1404
01:16:33,560 --> 01:16:36,439
only other place to refer to is a collection of bishops,

1405
01:16:36,560 --> 01:16:37,960
which would be a council.

1406
01:16:39,159 --> 01:16:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, just just think about it. We do

1407
01:16:41,840 --> 01:16:43,239
have a secular.

1408
01:16:44,840 --> 01:16:50,520
Speaker 11: Notion normative authority, which interesting enough, is based off a

1409
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:56,119
Byzantine law, So our legal system traces back to principles

1410
01:16:56,119 --> 01:17:00,920
and Byzantine law. But you certainly have a nor normative authority,

1411
01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:10,319
and that just means legally binding. So at what at

1412
01:17:10,319 --> 01:17:14,479
a county level, I guess you have judges, and then

1413
01:17:14,520 --> 01:17:17,800
your state has a supreme court, a state supreme court.

1414
01:17:18,840 --> 01:17:21,399
Speaker 2: And then your nation has a then at the highest

1415
01:17:21,640 --> 01:17:26,600
level is scotus. This is the United States.

1416
01:17:26,720 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 8: Yeah, So to take to take that analogy, I guess

1417
01:17:29,640 --> 01:17:32,119
it comes down to interpretation. Because you could argue that

1418
01:17:32,159 --> 01:17:35,079
the Constitution lays out the Bill of rights, those things

1419
01:17:35,079 --> 01:17:38,479
are not up for debate under the normative authority of.

1420
01:17:39,319 --> 01:17:41,880
Speaker 2: Well, it's a different issue, so.

1421
01:17:43,840 --> 01:17:50,000
Speaker 11: Of course the Constitution's open to uh interpretation with a

1422
01:17:50,039 --> 01:17:56,760
separate issue. The difference is my interpretation isn't law. So

1423
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:58,600
I might get it right, I might get it wrong.

1424
01:18:00,079 --> 01:18:01,880
The judge might get a right or wrong. But the

1425
01:18:01,920 --> 01:18:08,039
difference is it's binding on me. Now there's an appeals. Well,

1426
01:18:08,079 --> 01:18:13,159
what happens when the judge does bad law? It's still law.

1427
01:18:13,239 --> 01:18:15,840
You can't just say, well, that's not what the the

1428
01:18:15,920 --> 01:18:18,920
law says that I don't have to obey it. You're

1429
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:22,279
under the law of that judge. There's an appeals and

1430
01:18:22,359 --> 01:18:26,800
it goes higher up. So likewise in the church, of course,

1431
01:18:26,840 --> 01:18:30,199
in some like we're all in the same epistemic situation,

1432
01:18:32,119 --> 01:18:36,079
and you could make yourself more privileged or underprivileged depending

1433
01:18:36,119 --> 01:18:40,760
on certain concepts and lack of evidence or looking at stuff.

1434
01:18:41,000 --> 01:18:44,000
I mean, you get the idea that one could be

1435
01:18:44,039 --> 01:18:49,840
in a better position to make a correct interpretation or worse.

1436
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 2: But the issue is, yeah, is there anybody that can

1437
01:18:54,039 --> 01:18:55,159
lay this out as law?

1438
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:00,239
Speaker 11: That's what normative authority needs. So if a bishop get

1439
01:19:00,279 --> 01:19:03,840
something wrong and they have let's even think the priest

1440
01:19:03,960 --> 01:19:08,119
in some sense is has a normative legal authority over you.

1441
01:19:08,840 --> 01:19:10,640
Speaker 2: They can get it right do you where do you

1442
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:12,319
go to settle this?

1443
01:19:12,399 --> 01:19:14,600
Speaker 11: So there's a different issue like what's how do I

1444
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:17,960
know the right answer? Versus how is it legally or

1445
01:19:18,039 --> 01:19:22,000
coleasily settled? And you go up a court of appeals,

1446
01:19:22,439 --> 01:19:23,680
like you go to the bishop.

1447
01:19:24,359 --> 01:19:25,920
Speaker 2: What happens when the bishop.

1448
01:19:26,359 --> 01:19:29,239
Speaker 3: Is getting the way he would be subject to the right.

1449
01:19:29,399 --> 01:19:32,600
Speaker 11: He's subject to the synop So that's a local senate.

1450
01:19:33,000 --> 01:19:37,720
What happens if you know the synops it eventually would

1451
01:19:37,720 --> 01:19:43,319
go to the A largers right eventually all the way

1452
01:19:43,359 --> 01:19:47,760
up to Boy Commendment right all of all the entire church,

1453
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:54,079
in which case, there we see through scripture the Holy

1454
01:19:54,159 --> 01:19:55,479
Spirit is present.

1455
01:19:55,159 --> 01:19:56,479
Speaker 2: And works, and.

1456
01:19:59,000 --> 01:20:01,560
Speaker 11: We would say it that level there's an infallibility. But

1457
01:20:02,079 --> 01:20:04,600
there's a separate issue going on, like how do we

1458
01:20:04,680 --> 01:20:05,640
resolve disputes?

1459
01:20:05,680 --> 01:20:07,199
Speaker 2: How does the legal.

1460
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:11,640
Speaker 11: Structure work within the church. Well, it's a court of appeals.

1461
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:13,640
It goes up, but it doesn't mean that it's not

1462
01:20:14,800 --> 01:20:19,239
it's not law. It's just we have different levels of normal,

1463
01:20:19,439 --> 01:20:23,039
Like some things are more binding right you can keep

1464
01:20:23,079 --> 01:20:26,399
going up, and things at lower levels can be challenged

1465
01:20:27,880 --> 01:20:32,960
and ecumenical council cannot because it's the entire Church and

1466
01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:34,760
that is the Holy Theirs Christ.

1467
01:20:34,960 --> 01:20:38,399
Speaker 3: Or nowadays it would be some type of pan Orthodox synod,

1468
01:20:39,560 --> 01:20:43,039
but that cannot easily be done given the geopolitical situation

1469
01:20:43,159 --> 01:20:45,520
of the time. And there's been situations in the history

1470
01:20:45,560 --> 01:20:50,079
of the Church where geopolitical situations prevented ecumenical councils as well,

1471
01:20:50,119 --> 01:20:54,199
so that's not unprecedented. But theoretically there could definitely be

1472
01:20:54,319 --> 01:20:57,399
a pan Orthodox Synoon, or there could be some You

1473
01:20:57,399 --> 01:21:00,159
could even have a synod that does something or states something,

1474
01:21:00,199 --> 01:21:02,680
and then if the rest of the Orthodox world eventually

1475
01:21:02,760 --> 01:21:04,239
accepts it, it could be normal.

1476
01:21:05,079 --> 01:21:07,199
Speaker 2: Because I want to make it clear that it's not

1477
01:21:07,399 --> 01:21:11,800
just simply a mechanical or robotic life. W If I

1478
01:21:11,920 --> 01:21:15,359
just do these things and say these words or put.

1479
01:21:15,199 --> 01:21:17,840
Speaker 11: These people together, then it makes the magic happen.

1480
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:21,880
Speaker 2: Right, then that's the Holy Spirit, it's Jay's wright.

1481
01:21:23,720 --> 01:21:30,159
Speaker 11: Obviously, it cannot be an ecumenical council if it's not

1482
01:21:30,239 --> 01:21:33,439
in line with theology of the Church.

1483
01:21:34,520 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 2: If it's not received by the church, if.

1484
01:21:36,319 --> 01:21:39,800
Speaker 11: The capital Holos is not working as cata Holos, it

1485
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:41,119
can't be capta holos.

1486
01:21:41,399 --> 01:21:47,039
Speaker 3: Yeah, like the Palamite Synods were Byzantine councils, which the

1487
01:21:47,159 --> 01:21:51,560
entire Orthodox world basically I'm as far as unaware of firms.

1488
01:21:51,880 --> 01:21:55,079
So for all intents and purposes, we can call those

1489
01:21:55,439 --> 01:21:58,960
ecumenical councils the eighth and the Ninth, even though they

1490
01:21:59,000 --> 01:22:02,560
may not technically be Waitumena based councils in terms of

1491
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:05,359
the whole imperium. The rest of the world over the

1492
01:22:05,399 --> 01:22:10,720
centuries has adopted those for all intentsive purposes, they're infallible

1493
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:12,520
pan Orthodox councils.

1494
01:22:16,239 --> 01:22:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks, appreciate your time.

1495
01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:21,279
Speaker 8: Last question, I wrote a small book on symbolism and film.

1496
01:22:21,279 --> 01:22:23,560
Speaker 2: I'd like to send you a copy if you'd like.

1497
01:22:23,600 --> 01:22:24,720
What's the best way to send you.

1498
01:22:24,680 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 3: Something like that? You could send me a DM and

1499
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:30,680
I'll give you a po box if you want to

1500
01:22:30,720 --> 01:22:32,720
send me a book. Appreciate that.

1501
01:22:33,199 --> 01:22:33,479
Speaker 2: Thanks.

1502
01:22:33,760 --> 01:22:35,760
Speaker 3: I want to remind you guys too, that coming up

1503
01:22:35,800 --> 01:22:40,079
in uh let's see six days, we're under a week

1504
01:22:41,079 --> 01:22:46,439
big awesome live event January nineteenth here in Florida, Tampa.

1505
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:49,760
It'll be our first movie convention. We're going to this

1506
01:22:49,800 --> 01:22:53,800
horror convention. I'm invited to speak on the dark Secrets

1507
01:22:53,800 --> 01:22:55,840
of Horror Movies. So I will be given us a

1508
01:22:55,960 --> 01:22:58,800
Terry Hollywood presentation the first thirty ticket holders. It may

1509
01:22:58,840 --> 01:23:02,039
be sold out. If it's not, I'm not sure exactly

1510
01:23:02,039 --> 01:23:04,720
where we are on tickets. First thirty get a free

1511
01:23:04,720 --> 01:23:07,960
copy of Vessel Tay Hollywood Signed. If you don't get that,

1512
01:23:08,000 --> 01:23:10,960
you can always get another copy. We will be at

1513
01:23:11,000 --> 01:23:14,520
the convention, which is all day long. That's a separate

1514
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:18,399
event from this dinner packaged event. So if you want

1515
01:23:18,479 --> 01:23:21,640
tickets to my lecture and my talk that night, and

1516
01:23:21,720 --> 01:23:23,640
I think there's a panel discussion, there's a bunch of

1517
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:26,760
fun stuff going on. BG Comby. I have rumor that

1518
01:23:26,760 --> 01:23:30,319
BG Comby will be there, so you can also come

1519
01:23:30,359 --> 01:23:34,199
meet some of the other cool dudes. BG is a

1520
01:23:34,279 --> 01:23:42,439
very cool dude. So there's the tickets, all right, I'm

1521
01:23:42,479 --> 01:23:45,520
about spent, dude. We've been We went for six hours. Man,

1522
01:23:45,600 --> 01:23:48,760
I don't know if I can. I gotta go eat man. Father,

1523
01:23:48,840 --> 01:23:50,560
you can thank you so much. I'll give some of

1524
01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:52,640
the super chip I'll give you some of the super chats.

1525
01:23:52,680 --> 01:23:55,199
And thank you to Rachel and Andrew for sending so

1526
01:23:55,199 --> 01:23:58,039
many people today, and thank you to Rachel for that

1527
01:23:58,600 --> 01:24:01,600
big that super chat and Elias five. Wait we read

1528
01:24:01,640 --> 01:24:05,319
that Potus three dollars. Does the Moscow patriarch have less

1529
01:24:05,359 --> 01:24:09,800
problems than other churches? I don't even know how to

1530
01:24:10,359 --> 01:24:15,479
count up. Every jurisdiction has unique problems and issues, so

1531
01:24:15,680 --> 01:24:19,439
I don't know. Would you put problems in MP on

1532
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:23,119
par with ro Corps. I've never been to an MP church.

1533
01:24:23,199 --> 01:24:25,079
I don't follow. I don't know that much about what's

1534
01:24:25,079 --> 01:24:27,079
going on in the MP. I'm in a row Court church,

1535
01:24:27,159 --> 01:24:31,199
so I know about more localized Uh. You know, we

1536
01:24:31,279 --> 01:24:34,279
had an issue of a person in ro Corps in

1537
01:24:34,319 --> 01:24:37,399
Miami going to the EP. I mean that was a

1538
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:42,479
huge scandal. I don't know, man' I don't follow a

1539
01:24:42,479 --> 01:24:45,680
lot of church drama, so I have no idea North

1540
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:53,199
Country Nard one dollar. The Oriental has a channel. It's

1541
01:24:53,199 --> 01:24:56,359
nothing but misinformation. Yeah, I'm familiar with those guys. Ronnie

1542
01:24:56,359 --> 01:24:59,239
Howard five dollars. I love your content. I got an

1543
01:24:59,239 --> 01:25:02,319
OCA church, my family in Mexico or Joe's witnesses. Oh

1544
01:25:03,560 --> 01:25:07,800
how am I supposed to reconcile the religious differences with

1545
01:25:07,960 --> 01:25:12,239
the threat of being excommunicated by them? Well, Jesus says,

1546
01:25:12,239 --> 01:25:15,159
you know, he that loves family, mother or father more

1547
01:25:15,199 --> 01:25:16,920
than me is not worthy. So I think at a

1548
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:19,279
certain point, you know, you might be called to that.

1549
01:25:19,359 --> 01:25:23,159
I'm not saying that you're necessarily going to get what

1550
01:25:23,199 --> 01:25:25,479
do they call it, shunned by them? I don't know,

1551
01:25:26,119 --> 01:25:27,479
but I mean, I just.

1552
01:25:27,439 --> 01:25:30,000
Speaker 2: Get dirt on my family. I'm like, you go that way.

1553
01:25:29,880 --> 01:25:31,840
Speaker 3: Get some dirt and blackmail and brot. And I'm just joking.

1554
01:25:33,640 --> 01:25:35,520
I mean, you know, if they're if they shun you,

1555
01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:38,960
then you can't control that. You know, if they shun

1556
01:25:39,000 --> 01:25:42,000
you for believing the deed of Christ, I mean, then

1557
01:25:42,720 --> 01:25:48,239
you know, count that as a blessing. Jesus says. But

1558
01:25:48,319 --> 01:25:50,079
I don't think we have to work to try to

1559
01:25:50,079 --> 01:25:52,560
get people to be mad at us. I think you know,

1560
01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:54,680
if you just affirm the deed of Christ, they're going

1561
01:25:54,720 --> 01:25:56,399
to be mad at you no matter what. Nick Bond

1562
01:25:56,479 --> 01:26:00,840
five dollars, How do I locate the link about Anglicanism?

1563
01:26:02,000 --> 01:26:06,000
I mean, it's the video on my channel about Anglinism.

1564
01:26:06,079 --> 01:26:13,520
I put it in the chat MKG five dollars. Did

1565
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:15,960
you do? Have you done any full videos of krawl young?

1566
01:26:17,960 --> 01:26:18,520
Speaker 13: Uh?

1567
01:26:20,479 --> 01:26:23,039
Speaker 3: I've not done full videos. There was a crazy dude

1568
01:26:23,119 --> 01:26:26,199
who lost his marbles. And like went ape on me

1569
01:26:26,359 --> 01:26:30,239
for he was a Jungian dude. It's funny because I

1570
01:26:30,239 --> 01:26:32,760
bring up aon, which is what you're talking about, because

1571
01:26:32,800 --> 01:26:38,520
in aon, Carl Jung says that Jesus is anti Christ

1572
01:26:38,600 --> 01:26:41,319
and they're the same their flip sides of the same coin.

1573
01:26:42,079 --> 01:26:45,720
So this Jungian gnostic dude has a meltdown when we

1574
01:26:45,760 --> 01:26:49,720
start debating this, and he's like, you've never even read Young,

1575
01:26:50,079 --> 01:26:53,960
and I'm like, I'm quoting you from aon. His it's

1576
01:26:54,000 --> 01:26:59,359
a aio n and I think it's an actual book,

1577
01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:04,119
and this dude just has a complete meltdown. But now, actually,

1578
01:27:04,239 --> 01:27:06,960
the other day, because I'm writing Esoter Hollywood three, I

1579
01:27:07,000 --> 01:27:11,439
needed to I'm rewriting the Donnie Darko chapter and the

1580
01:27:12,119 --> 01:27:15,159
Box chapter the Richard Kelly movies, and I needed to

1581
01:27:15,199 --> 01:27:17,239
reference a bunch of Carl Young. So I actually went

1582
01:27:17,279 --> 01:27:19,600
and read a bunch of Carl Young that I hadn't read.

1583
01:27:20,239 --> 01:27:23,359
So I have read Carl Young in the past, but

1584
01:27:23,439 --> 01:27:26,479
now I've read even more Carl Young. And in the

1585
01:27:26,600 --> 01:27:29,840
chapter on Anima, he says, I'm just talking about a

1586
01:27:29,840 --> 01:27:33,359
bunch of ancient gnostic stuff. So yeah, of course, of

1587
01:27:33,399 --> 01:27:36,239
course it's gnostic stuff, and of course he gives evil

1588
01:27:36,279 --> 01:27:41,800
substance absolutely damas five dollars? What are the church father

1589
01:27:44,199 --> 01:27:46,399
Why is it the church fathers never really execute the

1590
01:27:46,439 --> 01:27:48,600
Book of Revelation that every preacher feels like they have

1591
01:27:48,640 --> 01:27:55,199
it down to a science pride and delusion, curie las

1592
01:27:55,239 --> 01:28:00,680
one dollar. Pres Positionalism is guilty of a lodge goal Howler.

1593
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:06,479
It commits the petitio principii or begging the question policy,

1594
01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:09,199
because Avoca is presupposing the Christian theism to prove the

1595
01:28:09,279 --> 01:28:13,760
Christian theism. Do you have any thoughts on this? Yeah,

1596
01:28:13,760 --> 01:28:16,439
We've heard this many times. So the point is that

1597
01:28:17,520 --> 01:28:20,199
it's not saying that Christian's true Christianity is true because

1598
01:28:20,239 --> 01:28:25,840
I presuppose it. It's saying that every position presupposes. And

1599
01:28:25,920 --> 01:28:28,000
so the way that we would prove or disprove an

1600
01:28:28,119 --> 01:28:32,039
argument is by comparing paradigms as a whole to see

1601
01:28:32,039 --> 01:28:35,800
which ones are coherent, which ones have explanatory power, et cetera.

1602
01:28:36,319 --> 01:28:39,239
So it's not doing what these people think it's doing.

1603
01:28:41,199 --> 01:28:56,520
Last guy, Christian, It does sound like a trend horn quote,

1604
01:28:56,520 --> 01:29:04,199
doesn't it. What's up man? Your own hi?

1605
01:29:04,439 --> 01:29:04,680
Speaker 2: Jay?

1606
01:29:05,680 --> 01:29:10,239
Speaker 18: I was trying to make the argument for compatibilism in

1607
01:29:10,359 --> 01:29:17,319
terms of when it comes to communism and predestination or knowledge.

1608
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:22,159
Speaker 2: I guess my argument for that would be that.

1609
01:29:23,640 --> 01:29:26,399
Speaker 18: As a Christian, I realized that I don't have the

1610
01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:30,039
knowledge God has in determining who's are his and who's

1611
01:29:30,039 --> 01:29:31,640
are not, But.

1612
01:29:31,600 --> 01:29:34,479
Speaker 2: Based on the doctrine, I do trust.

1613
01:29:35,359 --> 01:29:41,479
Speaker 14: The the faith I have in knowing that whoever I

1614
01:29:41,560 --> 01:29:45,600
want to, you know, work.

1615
01:29:45,439 --> 01:29:47,520
Speaker 2: With as far as like a brother in Christ.

1616
01:29:48,199 --> 01:29:55,000
Speaker 18: I feel like compatibilism, which would argue against Armenianism, would

1617
01:29:55,039 --> 01:29:59,960
be a better argument because I feel like with our minionism,

1618
01:30:00,920 --> 01:30:03,159
you have this ah.

1619
01:30:04,880 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 2: You.

1620
01:30:05,079 --> 01:30:08,640
Speaker 18: It's based on what your instincts think tell you who

1621
01:30:08,680 --> 01:30:12,239
you can or can't trust, and so that's that's why

1622
01:30:12,279 --> 01:30:12,840
I feel.

1623
01:30:12,600 --> 01:30:15,039
Speaker 3: Like, I mean, I don't know what. None of this

1624
01:30:15,079 --> 01:30:17,840
has anything to with proving or distriving Calvinism because Calvinism

1625
01:30:17,920 --> 01:30:24,079
is disproven by Christology. Calvinism relies on a soteriology doctrine

1626
01:30:24,119 --> 01:30:28,720
that's ahead of Christology. Christology is an afterthought and it

1627
01:30:28,960 --> 01:30:31,920
ends up saying that Christ has to be damned for

1628
01:30:32,000 --> 01:30:34,520
you to be saved. Do you believe that? No?

1629
01:30:34,600 --> 01:30:39,840
Speaker 20: I In terms of Calvinism, it's it's more of this

1630
01:30:40,000 --> 01:30:44,199
has to do with eternal, eternal elections, so it's obviously

1631
01:30:44,319 --> 01:30:44,960
is salvation.

1632
01:30:45,159 --> 01:30:47,000
Speaker 2: It's metaphysical.

1633
01:30:47,239 --> 01:30:51,199
Speaker 18: Uh, it's more of a you determining whether or not

1634
01:30:51,800 --> 01:30:54,920
you're part of God's elect and in terms of like

1635
01:30:54,960 --> 01:30:57,079
our interactions with each other on earth.

1636
01:30:58,039 --> 01:31:01,119
Speaker 2: You know, it's it's difficult to are.

1637
01:31:00,960 --> 01:31:02,840
Speaker 3: You arguing for Calvinism, I don't understand.

1638
01:31:03,279 --> 01:31:07,640
Speaker 18: Yeah, I'm arguing for Calvinism in the sense that you know,

1639
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:12,039
in my in my experience, you know, I've gone through,

1640
01:31:13,079 --> 01:31:15,399
you know, especially during the pandemic, I had a lot

1641
01:31:15,439 --> 01:31:18,760
of you know, betrayal and just.

1642
01:31:19,319 --> 01:31:20,760
Speaker 2: A lot of people that abandoned me.

1643
01:31:20,960 --> 01:31:25,800
Speaker 18: But you know, grasping on my faith in Christ, I

1644
01:31:25,920 --> 01:31:31,520
realized that those things were predetermined and that moving forward,

1645
01:31:31,840 --> 01:31:32,560
in order to.

1646
01:31:34,159 --> 01:31:36,800
Speaker 2: In order to display works that go.

1647
01:31:36,760 --> 01:31:40,560
Speaker 18: Along with faith, I have to trust my Christian brothers.

1648
01:31:41,239 --> 01:31:44,000
Speaker 3: Okay, but that sounds more like a personal issue, and

1649
01:31:44,039 --> 01:31:47,640
I would just say, go check out my theological critiques

1650
01:31:47,640 --> 01:31:49,920
of Calvinism. So I'm sorry that you have betrayal, but

1651
01:31:50,399 --> 01:31:53,039
I don't see how personal betrayal and then accepting that

1652
01:31:53,119 --> 01:31:56,279
God was the direct cause of all those events somehow

1653
01:31:56,800 --> 01:32:00,600
pers Calvinism. It seems like a very subjective to take,

1654
01:32:01,119 --> 01:32:03,960
but I'm arguing that Calvinism has many, many mistakes that

1655
01:32:04,000 --> 01:32:08,319
are more severe than whether there's free will versus predestination.

1656
01:32:08,399 --> 01:32:12,520
I'm talking about like trinitarian errors. I'm talking about calvin

1657
01:32:12,560 --> 01:32:15,439
teaching that Christ was damned in our place. Okay, that's

1658
01:32:15,479 --> 01:32:21,640
anti trinitarian. That's way more serious than you know, the

1659
01:32:21,680 --> 01:32:24,199
other things. And I'm not trying to be mean to you.

1660
01:32:24,239 --> 01:32:26,239
I'm sorry that you had those bad experiences, but hey,

1661
01:32:26,319 --> 01:32:30,279
look everybody has bad experiences, so but we can't let

1662
01:32:30,319 --> 01:32:35,239
that determine our theological stances m KG five dollars. I

1663
01:32:35,239 --> 01:32:37,920
saw the clip. This is what actually sparked my interest.

1664
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:42,039
What clip? Oh the Carl Young guy? Would you consider

1665
01:32:42,079 --> 01:32:44,000
a full deep dive on the subject of kral Young

1666
01:32:44,079 --> 01:32:46,079
on Christ? Well, i'd have to read more. I don't.

1667
01:32:46,119 --> 01:32:47,479
I mean, I don't know when I'm gonna have ton

1668
01:32:47,600 --> 01:32:51,119
to read, tons and tons of crawl young maybe, But

1669
01:32:51,760 --> 01:32:54,720
I mean it's like if he thinks Jesus and Antichrist

1670
01:32:54,720 --> 01:32:57,640
are the same principle, flip sides of the same coin,

1671
01:32:57,800 --> 01:33:00,840
Like I don't, I don't even I mean, like, how

1672
01:33:00,880 --> 01:33:04,079
much refutation do we need, like how much reading of

1673
01:33:04,119 --> 01:33:07,159
Carl Young do I have to read to know that's nonsense?

1674
01:33:08,039 --> 01:33:10,640
I mean, like, so in this chapter on Animal, for example,

1675
01:33:10,680 --> 01:33:15,840
he says, kid you not. He says, oh, the early

1676
01:33:15,920 --> 01:33:20,520
Church banished the mother principle from the Trinity, and it's

1677
01:33:20,600 --> 01:33:25,119
time to recover that. In my psychoanalysis, the mother principle

1678
01:33:25,159 --> 01:33:27,319
that when was there ever a mother in the trinity.

1679
01:33:27,600 --> 01:33:31,000
It's literally Bogokov sociology stuff, like what are you talking

1680
01:33:31,039 --> 01:33:35,359
about the mother in the Trinity? Then he says, I

1681
01:33:35,399 --> 01:33:38,680
kid you not. He said in the Animal chapter, he says, uh,

1682
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:43,279
let's take some medieval monks that had visions of God

1683
01:33:43,279 --> 01:33:48,359
as a woman. Why are we why should I follow

1684
01:33:48,439 --> 01:33:55,079
medieval crazy Roman Catholic creeps talking about God as a woman? Literally,

1685
01:33:55,119 --> 01:34:00,359
That's what he argues. So, like, does it didn't that

1686
01:34:00,479 --> 01:34:02,960
kind of from the outset raise some red flags like

1687
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:05,920
maybe I'm not maybe this is not like this most

1688
01:34:05,960 --> 01:34:08,239
profound stuff now I know. Jordan Peterson says, oh, he's

1689
01:34:08,239 --> 01:34:10,960
like the most profound thinker of the twentieth century, or

1690
01:34:10,960 --> 01:34:16,880
at least Peterson said that a long time ago, and

1691
01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:21,239
in those personality lectures. But I mean, I'm not saying

1692
01:34:21,279 --> 01:34:23,560
that there's not interesting things in Crawl Young, because there are.

1693
01:34:24,239 --> 01:34:26,239
I mean, I think there are archetypes, and there's some

1694
01:34:26,279 --> 01:34:29,119
neat stuff going on, but it's not all this wacko crazy,

1695
01:34:29,640 --> 01:34:32,479
Like this is crazy stuff, and you don't have to

1696
01:34:32,479 --> 01:34:34,520
go very far in Crawl Young before he literally just

1697
01:34:34,520 --> 01:34:37,479
says a bunch of crazy stuff. And by the way,

1698
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:42,479
Carl Young is an OSS spy informant, Like, how about

1699
01:34:42,479 --> 01:34:47,199
that calling into question his credibility. Oh you didn't know that, Yeah, absolutely,

1700
01:34:47,239 --> 01:34:51,880
his agent four eight eight. Look it up. It's in

1701
01:34:51,960 --> 01:34:53,720
by the way, I have that necessarily with three. By

1702
01:34:53,760 --> 01:34:56,119
the way, but maybe down the road if I read

1703
01:34:56,199 --> 01:34:59,600
more Carl Young. I did get the the text, by

1704
01:34:59,600 --> 01:35:03,960
the way, it's he has a bunch of works, but

1705
01:35:04,880 --> 01:35:10,119
I have the volume that is his archetypes of the

1706
01:35:10,119 --> 01:35:13,560
Collective Unconscious. And so there's a chapter on the Anima,

1707
01:35:13,720 --> 01:35:17,880
chapter on Trickster, there's a chapter on the mother, there's

1708
01:35:17,920 --> 01:35:21,960
a chapter on the father archetype, I think the son.

1709
01:35:24,239 --> 01:35:27,359
It's like all it's all the essential Carl Young stuff

1710
01:35:27,439 --> 01:35:30,239
is in that book. So maybe that will prove to

1711
01:35:30,319 --> 01:35:33,680
be something. Actually, we probably probably should just read that

1712
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:37,159
whole book and do a talk on it all right,

1713
01:35:37,199 --> 01:35:39,399
thank you guys. My mind is mush. I'm starting to

1714
01:35:39,399 --> 01:35:41,199
get a headache. So this is just way too much

1715
01:35:42,039 --> 01:35:43,760
Live Strength tonight. But hey, it was a lot of fun.

1716
01:35:43,800 --> 01:35:50,079
We had some wild, feral individuals. It was pretty crazy. Guys,

1717
01:35:50,199 --> 01:35:53,640
chill out and the chat. Please don't spam, but everybody,

1718
01:35:53,680 --> 01:35:55,920
have a good night. Get your tickets, get your