Speaker 1: Welcome to the Hello Sunday Podcast, the podcast for busy
women who are ready to drink less and live more.
I'm Casey Maguire Davidson, ex red wine girl turned life coach,
helping women create lives they love without alcohol. But it
wasn't that long ago that I was anxious, overwhelmed, and
drinking a bottle of wine a night to unwind. I
thought that wine was the glue holding my life together,
helping me cope with my kids, my stressful job, and
my busy life. I didn't realize that my love affair
with drinking was making me more anxious and less able
to manage my responsibilities. In this podcast, my goal is
to teach you the tried and true secrets of creating
and living a life you don't want to escape from.
Each week, I'll bring you tools, lessons, and conversations to
help you drink less and live more. I'll teach you
how to navigate our drinking obsessed culture. I found a
buzz how to sit with your emotions when you're lonely
or angry, frustrated or overwhelmed, how to self sue without
a drink, and how to turn the decision to stop
drinking from your worst case scenario to the best decision
of your life.
Speaker 2: I am so glad you're here.
Speaker 1: Now let's get started. Hi there, I am really excited
for today's episode because the person I'm interviewing was actually
a huge part of my story of quitting drinking in sobriety,
long before she even quit drinking. Her name is Stephanie Wilder.
She made a name for herself as a champion of
a mom's right to booze. She wrote the now defunct
column Make Mine a Double, Tales of Twins and Tequila,
and books including Sippy Cups Are Not For Chardonnay and
Naptime is the New Happy Hour. Today, Stephanie is sober.
In her new book, Drunkish, Loving and Leaving Alcohol, Stephanie
recounts the rise in the fall of her relationship with alcohol,
from the liquor cabinet concoctions that got her started at fourteen,
to her online fame as a wine loving mommy blogger,
to the disastrous evening when she drove drunk with her
kids in the car that marked the end of her drinking. Stephanie,
thank you so much for being here.
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Casey for having me, I'm really excited.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited too. And I mentioned to you just
before we jumped on that, long before I think you
even quit drinking. My son was born in two thousand
and eight, and I was a little bit of a
late mom. I didn't want to sort of give up
my younger lifestyle. And when he was born, I found
your book sippy cups are not for Charnay Now time
is the new happy Hour, and I glommed onto those
because I was fully in the my child will not
define my life and I will still be fun. And
sought out other moms who loved to drink at happy hour,
and so I was fully bought into that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think it's I think it's maybe
not as common as the mommy wine culture would have
you believe, but I think for people like us maybe
who had that specific attitude or came into it a
little later. I had ale a whole life, you know,
I had my first daughter. I was in my late thirties,
so I'd been a stand up comedian for years and
years and years. I just had such a lifestyle of
just doing whatever I wanted, whenever I wanted, and I
was really one of those people who was on the
fence about even having kids. You know, I knew, I
knew I didn't not want to have a baby. Yeah,
but it was really hard to wrap my mind around
that big a change to my lifestyle. I thought I
was pretty happy as is, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Absolutely, but I definitely wanted to be a mom. Part
of the reason, I think too, that I wanted to
be a mom was not necessarily the right reason, but whatever.
I absolutely I'm obsessed with my kids, so whatever got
me there. But it was kind of like I didn't
like the way I was parented, and I saw having
my own child as a way to like a redo,
you know, like I think I know how I would
want to raise a kid. Of course, all that goes
out the window when you have kids, and you're like,
I'd have no idea what I'm doing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I know what you mean. Because my husband
and I had been together. We met when we were
twenty two, and got married when we were twenty seven,
and had our first kid at thirty too. And so
my sister, you know, met she's a year and a
half older than me, met her husband, got married and
had kids pretty soon thereafter two her kids are a
year apart, and my mother was very much like, when
are you gonna have kids? And to the point where
she was I mean I remember this vividly. She was like,
you know, Casey, that you can drink red wine when
you're breastfeeding because it helps the milk clet down. I mean,
that's the old school thought pattern. But the fact that
she said that to me as if she thought that
was the barrier to me getting pregnant, in my mind,
like looking back now, I was like, oh, wow, that's.
Speaker 2: Kind of messed up.
Speaker 3: You know, that's so interesting. Yeah, did you have I've
found this to be true for me and quite a
few women that I know that don't moms that I
know that quit drinking. But when I was pregnant, it
was very tricky because I did not really have the
urge to drink that much. My I would not have
said before I even got pregnant, I would not have
said that I had a problem with alcohol. I thought
I drink like everybody else. Yeah, and when I had
to quit, but I did drink probably a lot. And
you know, we'll get into it, but I mean I
definitely there were of course, looking back a lot of
signs that I had issues with alcohol, but I chose
not to see those signs. And then when I got pregnant,
I noticed that I didn't have a real problem not drinking.
I think there was it's something about the hormones for
some people, because I also I didn't. I did drink
in my first pregnancy, But like my OB is back
in the day that they were, like, my OB was
very specific, like you can have two drinks a week, yeah, whatever, Yeah,
you know it, but you have So I would go, Okay,
I'm gonna have one glass of wine, you know, on
a Tuesday, and then I'm going to have a glass
of white on a Saturday. But some weeks I wouldn't
even have any.
Speaker 2: Yeah, with my.
Speaker 3: Twins, I was sober at that time. But I also
had no problem quitting.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I didn't have problems not drinking when I was pregnant.
And we'll talk about this, but I think that's also
part of the fact. Obviously, everywhere you look, it's like,
you know, don't drinking when you're pregnant is dangerous, right,
you go into the bathroom at a restaurant or bar,
the sign is up there. And now looking back, I'm like, okay,
so that's implying that drinking now called any other point,
as long as you're not pregnant, is not bad for
you at all. But also there is so much societal
pressure to not drink when you're pregnant. Like if I
was seven months pregnant and went out to a restaurant
and ordered a glass of wine, people would look.
Speaker 3: At me, you know, oh yeah, you had to do
that at home, right.
Speaker 1: And I didn't really drink until my third trimester, when
I was sort of told like, oh, you can have
half a glass of wine a week, and all my
friends thought that too, But it was also like I
sought out that information.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, cool. But when you're not drinking.
Speaker 1: The the entire pressure is flipped to if you don't drink,
people are like, why aren't you drinking?
Speaker 3: People are very up in people's business about drinking or
not drinking. As it turns out, yeah, and most other things, right,
like how you parent, how much sleep you I mean,
whatever you're doing, somebody has an opinion about it. I've
had to learn to just have a very thick skin.
Speaker 1: Well, especially when you have a baby, right, people will
just come up unsolicited and give you parenting advice, or
if you're pregnant, they will just come up and touch
your belly and.
Speaker 2: It's like, what the fuck? Yeah, you know no.
Speaker 1: I finally decided, my husband and I decided that we
would no longer judge anyone who had kids older than
ours were. That was once we had a kid, because
we were like, we used to be like, oh my god,
I can't believe they're giving them an iPad in a restaurant,
and then we our kids got you at that age,
and we were like, have the damn iPad?
Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
Speaker 3: Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't know anything
about parenting. I read no parenting books. I read pregnancy
books when I was pregnant, because whatever wherever I am,
that's what I want to know about. Like I'm not
a person who's looking into the future, like what's that
going to feel?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 3: So I did no pre planning when I was pregnant.
I took a Did I take a breastfeeding class? I
think I didn't. I think I thought, well, that'll that
seems like a natural thing, like you just the baby
sucks on your booth, Like how hard could it be?
I don't need to take a class. That's ridiculous, you know.
And I definitely didn't do anything regarding parenting until after
I had a baby. And then every every moment is
like an O ship moment, right, It's like, oh, now
I have a baby. Now what what do they do?
Speaker 2: What do you do with them?
Speaker 3: How do you keep them busy?
Speaker 2: I had a brillion questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so two things. One I felt the same way,
and I also like, was definitely not a stand up comedian,
but was like thinking I was really funny at all times.
So I was always being like, you know, like I
went to the hospital even before. You know, they're those
moms who don't want to have an epidural and God
bless you, like Jesus Christ, I can't imagine. But like
I would talk to my friends and I'd be like,
I mean, I take recreational drugs. Why the hell wouldn't
I take one? You know, but I'm like going through childbirth.
So yeah, I thought I was very funny, but I
particularly joked about and alcohol and stuff like that. Well,
one thing I think is super interesting is you didn't
read any parenting books, but then you wrote some, right,
because even though sippy cups are not for Chardonnay, and
naptime is the new happy hour. Weren't her se parenting books.
They were commenting on what everybody was going through and
like tongue in cheek giving advice kind of thing.
Speaker 3: Well, the reason for that is because I started writing
that book when my older daughter was only a few
months old. So what happened is I was home with
this baby. I was going crazy. I had a lot
of anxiety, which I didn't I don't think I would
have told you at the time it was anxiety. I
think I just felt so uncomfortable that is this forever,
like I'm home with a baby, she's you know, not
sleeping a lot. This was in the first few months,
day and night, trying to figure out what to do
with her. My husband had was working, and I was
very jealous that my husband got to continue having a job.
And I was just feeling a drift, you know, I
was like, what do I do. I'm not this person
that enjoys just going to Target. Now I am, don't worry.
I love going to Target. But at the time, I
was like, I don't care about recipes or going to
target or all the things that I feel like new
moms are supposed to care about. So one night I
was like, how do how can I connect with like
my old life a little bit? And I'd heard of blogging.
It was in the very early days, and I just decided, oh, well,
maybe I can write something about this experience. And it
was kind of a rant. I started this blog. It
was so old school. It was blogspot dot com. It
was very simple to like set up because you weren't
like buying a domain or anything. It was literally a
blog a service, right like anything.
Speaker 2: I had one of those.
Speaker 3: Too, okay, cool, so you get it. So one night
I had a couple of glasses of wine and I
just wrote this rant about how this was not for me,
like I felt like I bought it. I was in
a cult already, and you know, my daughter was young
and I don't want to talk. I don't want to
just go to Target. And it was because I'm a
stand up. It was funny, you know, I wrote this
funny thing. So then I was like, well, and now
I need somebody to read it. I didn't know how
to get actual readers, so I sent it to my
friend at the time, Chelsea Handler, was a really good
friend of mine and she book. But yeah, we knew
each other from stand up. We were really good friends.
She was. She was honestly like one of my closest friends.
She threw my older daughter's my first baby's baby shower
with my other friends. So I sent it to her.
Oh and she and I had read each other's writing
a lot, because well I'd read a lot of her writing.
So she had a book that was not yet out yet.
She just gotten a book deal, so she had an agent.
And then I sent it to like my sister and
a couple of my other friend and you know, so anyway,
all of a sudden, I swear to God. The very
next day, I got a call and it was an
agent and it was Chelsea's agent, and he was away,
I'm gonna get you a book deal. And I thought
it was a crank phone call, so I almost hung
up on him because Chelsea was known for being doing
little pranks. And I was like, who is this who?
And he was like, this is Chelsea's agent, and then
he told me his name and then I was like, oh,
and he's like, have you written anything else? Basically I
had to just say I was like, yeah, of course
I've written other things I had not This was my
first try at writing anything about parenting. Anyway, he said,
don't put anything else online, send it to me, and
I'm going to get you a deal. So I never
did a proposal, so I get this book deal. Like
six weeks later, I had a book deal. So before
my daughter was even six months old, I started. I
had a deal to write a parenting book. Now I
knew nothing about really about parenting, so all I could
do was write about my experiences kind of as I
was going through them. So I wrote funny chapter about
going to mommy and me some of these things I
would do just to write about them. Yeah, yeah, But
then I had to kind of write the reason I
was commenting on other aspects was because I hadn't gone
through it. So, like my editor wanted me to write
a chapter on potty training. I was like, I've got
a six month old baby. I don't know what I'm
going to say about potty training. So I just like
would google potty training and then I would just try
to write funny about all that stuff. But yeah, my
mom made sure to point out to me that we
don't have a good relationship, but she made sure to
point out to me that it was ridiculous that I
had a deal to write a parenting book when I
barely had any experience having being a parent.
Speaker 1: I well, my mother would say that too, and she
wouldn't totally be wrong, but I totally retonated with your
books and love them to the point that my son
was like twelve weeks old and we joined. Seattle has
this like hepscroup. I think it's like parent early support program.
And so what they did is they paired you with
like six other couples who also had like six to
twelve week olds or whatever, and there was one leader
who maybe had a three year old, and you met.
You met every week for like god knows how many weeks.
And I went to the first one and it was
in the evening and the woman with the three year old,
I mean, very nice, but I swear to god, she
and I'm going to offence someone. She must have been
a woman who like put the sign on the door
that like, do not ring the doorbell because the baby's sleeping. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I was just like, I'm never going to be that mom.
I was so judgy.
Speaker 1: And I went there and she literally served us goldfish
and apple juice, and I was like, what the fuck
is this. It's seven pm. I'm with group of strangers.
We have to sit here for an hour. And so
they put a piece of paper around like signing up
for the next round.
Speaker 2: And I am not a hoster.
Speaker 1: I signed up for the very first spot so that
I could serve alcohols, so that I could show them
what this should be like for the next couple months
of my life. I was like, Oh, hell no, We're
gonna like have a bar, and you know, it was crazy.
So when I found your books, I was like, yes,
you are my people. I'm gonna take notes from you,
and like I gave it as a baby shower present
to all of my friends, Like I was seriously attached
to your right.
Speaker 3: Well, the thing is, I you know, I still defend
I defend that book. It's not that it was the attitude.
It wasn't. I wasn't, you know, saying be drunk around
your kids. It's just that it's what I thought was
a funny, edgy attitude drinking.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not that.
Speaker 3: I was like, it's not and I'm sure the same
for you. It's not that I was really drinking so
alcoholically at that time. It was just that it was
my sense of humor and it was a way to
connect to my old life. And I think you probably
felt the same. It was a way to go like
just because I had a baby doesn't mean that I'm
just a mom, Like I don't want to be called
Elbie's mom. Like at every playgroup I go to, like
I'm still Stephanie, I'm still fun and funny, and like, yeah,
I still have the same interests I had before I
had a baby. I didn't change, like I didn't have
a lobotomy. That was kind of what the book was
trying to say. I don't suddenly think it's a great
idea to spend, you know, one thousand dollars on my
kid's first birthday party. I was trying to say, like,
let's all slow down and stop being ridiculous, Like our
whole being doesn't have to change. We don't have to
just identify with mom shit. And that was what I
was trying to say with that book, And I think
that did resonate with a lot of people, and I
don't take it back.
Speaker 1: No, Well, you know what I think is interesting is
I used to I mean, and for a lot of women,
I think it's true, like drinking was part of my identity,
but it was sort of a metaphor or shorthand for
like I'm fun or I'm more than a mom, or
you know, I used to describe myself.
Speaker 2: I'd be like, Oh, I'm.
Speaker 1: Married, i have two kids, I work in marketing, I'm
a red wine girl.
Speaker 2: I live in Seattle. Like it was.
Speaker 1: It was part of who I was. And it also
when I stopped working because I was a director and
a company. Like you said, my husband kept going to
work and he would stop for like a latte on
his way home, and I'd be so pissed because I'm like, what.
Speaker 2: The actual fuck, I've been.
Speaker 1: Doing nothing but taking care of this screaming child for
like twelve hours in your stock being for a latte,
you know, like like somehow those ten minutes were really
gonna like make or break me because I was so desperate.
Speaker 3: How about when you when you're sitting on the couch
with the baby and your husband gets up and goes
to take a shower, Oh my god, like, oh that
must must be nice.
Speaker 1: And you're trapped and you're like, I eat a class
of water, Like are you kidding me? Separately, like do
they spend more time in the toilet more than like
ever before when they when you have a baby. And
also like I swear to God, when I had babies,
our lawn has never looked so good. Like the guy
was out there with like the shoes, with the with
the little things underneath that so he could air rate
the fucking lod. I was like, you're air rating the lod,
Like this is ridiculous, but yeah, And I found that,
like I had.
Speaker 2: All these interests before I had my baby.
Speaker 1: I could, like, you know, go to yoga and go kayaking,
and like go to pilates, and I went to therapy
and I had guitar lethons. I mean I still trow
all these other things. And I had a baby and
I was just rushing home from work to get to
daycare pickup before it closed. And then you have the
baby food and the bath and the bed and so
like drinking, I could multitask, you know.
Speaker 2: It was like the one fun thing that I could keep,
like you can play Legos with a glass of wine.
Speaker 3: I agree with you. I agree with you. And I
would say that it just wasn't a problem until it was.
And then for a lot of reasons, it was a
problem for me, and then of course, and looking back,
you know, it was it. Alcohol was something that I
turned to for self medicating reasons and for relief and
for fun and for all those things. But it does
get exacerbated when you are home with your kid and
you don't have any other outlets. I can see. I
wonder if I ever would have drank really alcoholically if
it wasn't for having a baby. I mean, I probably
would have, because if I look back at how I drank,
and of course I'm not blaming having a kid, but
I'm blaming I'm not blaming anything. But I'm saying I
wonder if the way my habit became dangerous only came
to the surface, you know, once I was a parent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, so tell us your story. Tell us how
you went from writing nap Time is a New Happy
Hour two then, which I cannot believe you did being
so brave, to writing on your blog that you quit drinking,
like the Monday after the Friday you stopped.
Speaker 3: Is that right in terms of yeah, it was a
few days after. Well, what happened is I had been
keeping up with my blog even though I now had
books coming out so I was writing and once I
had twins, but I didn't have my blog wasn't super successful.
You know, some people think that I got this book
deal off of having a blog. I didn't. I got
the book deal because Chelsea Handler got me a book
deal basically. So I kept writing on the blog and
people were reading it, and it was more for like
a sense of community. It was more because you know,
it was that immediacy. I wasn't going out and doing
stand up, so blogging was a way that I could
express myself and then get immediate comments. And I was
one of those I lived for that kind of validation
for people to go like, oh, I'm going through the
same thing. And you know, at this point when I
started getting a few more readers when I had twins,
because you know, I was going crazy and then my
twin pregnancy was having some problems, so people were really
following along. So once when my twins were you know,
newborns because I quit drinking, they were eighteen months. So
suffice it to say that I was very in touch
with my readers. I was blogging quite a bit. Well
I don't know if I want to say even secretly,
but I was definitely. I had tried to quit drinking
when my older daughter was two and a half. I
did quit drinking, and then I got pregnant with twins,
and I didn't get really any kind of proper help.
I just was like, I had a bad night and
I was like, I'm just not going to drink again.
I'm not going to do that. I don't want to
when she.
Speaker 2: Was two and a half years old. Was that right?
Speaker 3: When she was two and a half years old, I
I went trick or treating and I got drunk trick
or treating. It's in the book. And it was funny
because I was like, do I talk about that part
in the book because it's not when I actually really
quit drinking. But I really was committed to quitting drinking.
I got drunk with like some neighborhood friends and nobody
else did. And it was one of those things where
like I couldn't remember what happened the next day, and
I was like, this is awful, and this is not
the parent I want to be. I do not want
to have blackouts hanging out with my kid, you know,
and embarrass myself in front of like other moms. And
the whole thing was felt humiliating. We were on foot,
just trick or treating in the neighborhood. But I I
went to a couple of like recovery meetings. I was
kind of serious, but not that serious. If you know
anything about like, I didn't. I didn't do anything really
about it except for kind of set my intention that
I don't want to drink anymore. And then I got
pregnant with twins, and then I had twin and then
I didn't drink through that pregnancy. So when I had
my twins, I was like, oh, well, I didn't drink
for that whole pregnancy, which was they came a little early,
like one month early. So let's just say that was
like eight months plus another like month or two before that.
So like now I'm like, it's been almost a year
and I didn't drink, so obviously I'm fine and I'm
not an alcoholic, and thank god, because now I really
need to drink because I got three I got babies
and a toddler. Basically, so I'm blogging and I'm drinking.
And if you know anything about alcoholism, which I think
you do, it's progressive. When I started drinking again, I
was off to the races. I was like, I went
from I'm just going to have like a beer to
I'm just going to have like two drinks. I'm just
going to have a couple drinks a night, and then
I started them trying to moderate. And then for those
I would say eight solid eighteen months, it was me
trying to manage and control my drinking. It was like,
I don't want to have to quit drinking, but gosh,
I'm really starting to feel dependent, and I was starting
to feel like I couldn't take a night off. I
was starting to realize that by five o'clock, I'm really
rationalizing that I'm making a lot of promises I don't
want to I'm not going to drink anymore, and I'm
doing it. And then I'm trying to drink only only
every other day, only on weekends, only on weekdays. I
was doing all those games in my head, and I
was fighting it and fighting it and fighting it. So
when you know what happened was I had reached a
point where I was like, you know what, trying to
control my drinking is so aggravating and it's so hard,
and it's a losing battle. So rather than try this
hard to control it. I'm just going to accept that
I'm a person who enjoys a cocktail.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 1: I have seen that with like so many of my
clients but myself too, where they're like, I'm tired of
thinking about drinking and maybe trying to control it is
the problem. So therefore I'm just going to stop trying,
and therefore i won't think about it and be so
obsessed with it, and therefore it'll be fine.
Speaker 2: Like the rationalizations.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I thought of it like dieting, where you're like, well,
if you're on a diet, then you're thinking about food
all the time and feeling deprived. So maybe the idea
is just to like let myself eat as much as
I want and you know, and then I won't whatever
that was. Yeah, I was like, I'm just gonna accept
the fact that, like, you know what, I'm just a
fun person who likes the cocktail, and I like that
cocktail like every night, and I'm just gonna have a
couple of drinks every night. But I'm just never going
to do anything dangerous. I'm going to drink in the house,
and you know, so I had this real strong line
in the stand if I'm going to be somebody who
drinks every night. I'm by gode, I'm going to stay
home every night. Yeah, until I didn't stay home and
I went out somewhere with my with two of my kids,
and I was at like everybody was drinking. I'm not
trying to like judge other people right now at this point,
because maybe other people can and I and many people
do have a drink when they're out somewhere and are
able to drive home. I just never had the off switch,
so I never knew I was drunk. So that's very dangerous.
So when I'm out somewhere and somebody's like, have a drink,
and then I have that drink, and I'm feeling relaxed
and fun, and this is a good time, and I
deserve to have a good time because like, parenting is hard,
and I'm out with two of my kids and I've
got an eighteen month in tow and a three year
old a four year old, and we were having fun.
And then I had another drink, and then I had
another drink, and then I still thought I was fine,
just having fun, just relaxed, and then I drove home
and then my husband was like, you're drunk. And then
I was mad at him for how dare you?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 3: I was just out, I had a couple of drinks.
My God, like, nothing to see here, leave me alone.
But when I woke up the next day with a
brutal hangover and realized, oh my god, like I just
had such a moment of clarity of like, this is
what's happened. This is I could just kind of see
it all. I could see the progression. I could see
all the rationalization I was doing. And I was like,
I'm going to rationalize my way into driving drunk again
and having a car accident or god forbid, you know,
killing somebody whatever. I was like, this is really dangerous.
So having made that decision that I knew was for
good in my mind, you know, And then of course
I had to do a lot of work to make
sure that that decision was for good. But in my mind,
I was like, I have to change and I can
no longer be the person that was like drinking's fun
Like for me, I'm not going to say what other
people should do, but I had to be honest. If
I wasn't going to be honest with myself, then all
was going to be lost. I just knew I would go,
I would revert. So I felt very strongly that if
I'm going to continue to blog, and I was known
for being really honest about how hard it was, how
hard parenting was, and how you know, the struggles that
I had, So I thought, there there's no way that
I can just write it's a lie. That's how I felt.
I felt like I was going to be lying by
omission to not admit that I'd made this decision. Now.
Was I ready to like tell the world that I
driven drunk? No, I was not, because that was that
was a bridge too far at that point. I mean,
it had been a few days. But I felt I
owed it to my readers, many of whom I felt
also relied on alcohol and also thought drinking what I had.
I felt like I owed it to them to say,
like I can't that I'm not going to drink anymore.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that incredible. And I have to
say that it made a huge impression on me, even
though it took me, I don't know, three and a
half years later till I stopped for the first time,
and even four years after that till I stopped eight
years ago. So I obviously had read all your books.
Speaker 2: I had loved them, I had gifted them.
Speaker 1: I was like bought in And it was not your
fault that I drank like that, Like I was on
board way before. I just was like, oh, yes, this
like she gets me, this is awesome, and also like
I'm not the only one, like.
Speaker 3: This is for real and get you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know right, I think there are a lot
of women listening to this who are like yep. But then, okay,
my son was six months old and I somehow found
the book Drinking a Love Story by Carolyn Knapp.
Speaker 3: I just wrote, I just wrote this thing where I
mentioned that as like one of my favorite books about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, and to the point where I was
so I desperately didn't want my husband to know how
worried I was about my drinking, because first I didn't
want to stop, and second I didn't want him watching me. Right,
he knew I drank a ton, but I was just like,
I don't want him to be my parent. And every
time I open up a second bottle of wine on
a Tuesday, like what the fuck?
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 1: I would read it on my kindle and then every
time I finished reading it, I would open like five
more books so it would be pushed down in my
queue in case he like randomly picked up my kindle,
which like is so paranoid and never would happen. And
from the first chapter, the first paragraph, she was talking,
I mean there's a woman with a red wine glass
on the cover.
Speaker 2: I was a red wine girl, and.
Speaker 1: Like it was like I fell in love and because
you know this thing was going to bring me down,
I had to stop. And so it was everything in
there was so close to home for me. I like
got out a word doc and like went to the
office my son six months old and typed up this thing,
titled it Someone something Else so no one could find it.
I mean, I was ridiculous and was like, I think
I have a problem with alcohol.
Speaker 2: This is bad. I need to stop.
Speaker 1: And then literally two days later I came back to
the word dock and over the top was like just kidding,
nothing to see.
Speaker 2: Year like it was so messed up.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I relate. I mean there were many many times
that I remember writing in a journal like from years before,
just like oh my gosh, I'm so drunk. I wonder
if I need to stop drinking. Like lots of little clues.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but then in that same office, I think a
year later, so it was our in the back of
my head, like this is not good, even though I
was giving away naptime is the new happy hour and
fully rationalizing this and drinking with all my friends with
their kids. And then I saw the article. I went down,
got my cup of coffee in the coffee shop under
my office and saw in the New York Times the
story about you, and it was like heroine cocktail mom, cocktail,
I should know that the title do you.
Speaker 3: Forgot heroin of cocktail Mom's sobers up or something like that?
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and yep, that's exactly it. And I bought
the paper and was like, holy shit, because I knew you,
I knew your books. I was like, what wrote like honestly,
that's what I thought, Like hope, Right, And then I
went up to my office and I found the article
online and I freaking pos like copied and pasted it
into my word dot and.
Speaker 2: Then I drank for another four years.
Speaker 3: Right, what happened? What was your bottom?
Speaker 2: Okay?
Speaker 1: The first time I had two times. The first time
I was really worried about. I was angry and I
was upset, and I was like felt resentful, even though
I had this really good life and this adorable son,
and I just felt overwhelmed, and I was mad at
my husband. I felt like he was like, you know,
would rather spend time with other people than me and
go out with other friends, which, of course, like I
was like passed out on the couch every night. I'm like,
what the hell, why does me want's.
Speaker 2: Been time with me?
Speaker 1: And I got in a fight with my husband, which
I don't remember what it was about, and we were
not fight fighters, And I somehow went to sleep with
my five year old because I didn't want to sleep
in the bed with my husband, and passed out. And
I woke up this is a week day, and my
husband was standing over me and looked so sad and
brought me a cup of coffee and was like, I
don't understand what's happening with us. I told you that
I wouldn't do whatever it was he was doing the
night before. And I didn't even remember what the fight
was about, Like whatever he told me he was going
to stop doing, I had no recollection, and I was
just like, oh shit. So I got a therapist.
Speaker 2: I looked it up.
Speaker 1: I very specifically chose one that specialized in addiction and anxiety,
and then I went in there and was like, oh
my god, my husband, my job, my kid, my boss.
I need help with my anxiety and overwhelm. And by
the way, I drank a bottle of wine at night
and he immediately was like, let's talk about your drinking,
and I was like, no, let's.
Speaker 2: Talk about my boss. But he was sober.
Speaker 1: He had been in a twelve step program, and so
he encouraged me to go to one. And then I
freaking found the BFB. Like I was following your blog,
which is the Booze Free Brigade, which is a group
you started, right, I read Don't Get Drunk Friday. Yeah,
tell me about this?
Speaker 3: Oh just that. So I was still I was blogging
now all the time about not drinking now, and my
husband was like, you gotta be careful, Like all you
talk about now is being is sobriety, like it might
get on people's nerves. Well, I don't know if he
said it like that, but he was like, you know
you're gonna you're like rebranding yourself as like the sober person,
which I was like, you know what, maybe you're right.
So I decided I'm gonna make I'm just gonna on Fridays.
Every Friday, I'll talk about alcoholism or my drinking or
not drinking.
Speaker 2: And then I.
Speaker 3: Started getting friends to be guest bloggers on my site
and tell their story and I called it Don't Get
Drunk Friday. One of those friends, my friend Jane, and
I were like, all these people are trying to talk
to each other in the comments of the Don't Get
Drunk Friday blog. So this was like early days of
kind of message boards and stuff, and we were like,
we should start a message board, a Yahoo message board
where people can go join it and then talk to
each other.
Speaker 1: I started when the Yahoo message board was going.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so we did. We started that together and we
both and we both were like letting people in or whatever.
And that went on for a few years and people
found each other, and then somebody started it on Facebook.
Somebody made a Facebook group of that group and everybody
you know, cause Facebook started like around I mean I
joined in nine, so it was still early days. But anyway,
somebody made it a Facebook group and it still exists.
I think there's a I'm in it.
Speaker 2: I am still in it.
Speaker 1: I told them that I was interviewing you, and I
cut and pasted something I found in the t Toronto's
Star about how the group, I mean it is thriving still,
and I cut and pasted about like the origins of
the BF or like that you had started it, and all.
Speaker 2: These people were like, oh my god, I had no idea.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean because it was so many years ago. Yes,
I think we started. That group started like in my
first year of I mean, hadn't been sober that long.
Speaker 1: It's amazing. It is still like one of my favorite
places on the internet. The people there are so kind.
I think there's like two five hundred people in there
right now, and wow, thank you. You shouldn't pop in.
I'm gonna share this episode there.
Speaker 3: I will. So you okay, so you join that group
or you go on the Yahoo group. Yeah, but this
is only your first try, it sobriety right.
Speaker 2: Yes, Yeah, So I went on.
Speaker 1: I was in the Yahoo group, and then pretty soon
or after it became the Facebook group, which was helpful
because it was so hard to follow the Yahoo group.
It was just there's so many posts and email. I
got them all on email. So I joined Facebook and
I remember sitting in my office and being so terrified
it was going to somehow show up on my public
page right with my bosses and my mother and my coworkers.
And I put a picture of me and my five
year old son. He was this little redhead on there,
and I just was like, I'm.
Speaker 2: Ex years old, I have a five year old.
Speaker 1: I live here, I work here, and I'm terrified that
I drink too much. I drink a bottle of wine
a night. I'm like hungover every day. I keep trying
to moderate. I don't want to stop drinking, and like
posted it. Freaked out, like went to my public page
and like we're fresh seventeen times to make sure it
wasn't there, and then had to go to a meetie
and I came back and there were like twenty eight
comments from people who were like, I'm just like you,
It's gonna be okay. I was a white wine girl,
like I know how you feel. Your son is beautiful,
and I like started crying.
Speaker 2: I was just oh my god, you know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And then what happened.
Speaker 1: And then I went to my therapist and he encouraged
me to go to a twelve step program. And I
really didn't want to, but I was sort of like
a bucket list. Never thought I'd do this, you know,
trying to make a joke of it all. And I
found a woman on the BFB who lived in Seattle
and was lawyer and was my age and she was
four months sober and was like, I'll take you. And
so I went to my first twelve step meeting and
it was a little weird, like there was an older
I mean it was nice, but there was like an
older woman with like little guns on her glasses, like
who kept getting up and walking around. I was like, uh,
and you know, they gave me a book at like
I of course cried because like what was happening in
my life? And I was glad I had my friend there.
But like, so I went for about four months. I
went to mostly women's big book study meetings, which I
wonder if that was a bad idea because I am
not religious and the God stuff, like there's a lot
of God in the first twelve steps.
Speaker 2: And I got a.
Speaker 1: Sponsor and she told me to get on my knees
and prayed that my obsession was lifted every day. And
I'm like, oh, holy shit, no, you.
Speaker 3: Know, I'm sober fourteen years, very involved in my twelve
step groups. I'm still not into the God stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, And I know everybody's like it's spiritual.
Speaker 2: I'm like, really, it's written like God.
Speaker 3: You know who was religious that when they when they
started it, and now they've of course loose they try
to loosen it up so that it's more inclusive, but
I know tons of like atheists.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I don't like you.
Speaker 3: One thing I love about twelve stuff is like there
really are no rules. There's people that want to pretend
there's rules and like want to tell you what to do,
but there's there's no like, no one's you don't check in,
like unless you're court ordered, you don't. You know what
I mean. It's like it's kind of whatever you want
to make of it. I look I look at it
as support, yes, and maybe accountability.
Speaker 1: And I was glad. I was glad it was there.
So I have to say, this was almost eleven years ago,
and there really was, as far as I could tell,
not a lot else out there, like or at least
not a lot of I mean, I had the BFB
and then I didn't know of much else.
Speaker 2: And so.
Speaker 1: Now the second time I quit drinking eight years ago,
go like the world had somewhat exploded by that time,
like more people had written blogs and books. There were
sober coaches. I did, Hollywood, so can I.
Speaker 3: I don't want to interrupt you, but I need to
interview you. But fuck you already did. But when you
made the decision to go back to it, so that
was like you had another three years.
Speaker 1: So okay, here's what happened. It's so much like your story.
So I did it for four months. Then I got
a full time job again and it was a big commute,
and I was like, oh, I don't need this anymore
because I'm sober. And my boss, who I'd known for
years and had worked with, was in AA and she
had been sober for like fifteen years at my new job,
and so I was like, oh, I got this. I
got accountability. You know, my boss is sober, she knows
I'm sober. I'd talk to her about it. And so,
and then I got pregnant and I didn't drink four
a year. I mean, it's so similar. I didn't drink
for a year because I was pregnant, and I got
to the end of it. And by the way, the
whole time I was trying to do this like slow
shuffle back from like maybe I overreacted, you know, like
I don't really have a problem. It was so then
I felt latable, yeah, oh my god, right, and I
mean when you're talking, I was like, oh shit, this
is me. And so I got to the end of
the year, and of course I was like, my marriage
is better, my anxiety is better, my life's better. I'm happier,
I'm less stressed at work. In no way associating all
of that with the fact I was no longer drinking.
I was like, course, imagine it was situational right that
I was drinking too much, and now I'm better. And
so like two weeks after I had my daughter, I
was like, went out to drink, you know, dinner with
my husband. I was like, I'll just have a drink
on a date night.
Speaker 2: I had one.
Speaker 1: I immediately, so I had another. But then I was like, whoa,
that's it. And then like maybe two weeks later, I
was like, oh, it's a Friday night, why don't you
pick up a bottle of wine to come home.
Speaker 2: Within a month, I was back to.
Speaker 1: A bottle of wine or a couple glasses every night,
and very quickly I went back to a bottle of
wine a night or more. The whole time, I knew
it was a trouble like thought. I was still on
the BFP, but I didn't post because I was so embarrassed.
I would go to the grocery store, and because I'd
been to local aas, I'd buy my like six pack
of wine because you get the ten percent discounts, so
it's like just makes sense, you know, I'm putting.
Speaker 2: It in quotes and being sarcastic since Noah could see.
Speaker 3: You're being smart, right.
Speaker 1: And then I would go in the lie and I
would literally lie the bottles of wide at the bottom
of my cart, put my fucking bags over it, and
then check behind me who was getting in line in
case someone from AA.
Speaker 2: I mean it was it was ridiculous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So I drank till my daughter was twenty two
months old, and I finally stopped again. But the reason
I stopped the second time was like death of a
thousand cuts, Like my anxiety was off the charts. I
tried to moderate and I couldn't. I woke up with
horrible hangovers. I was passing out on the couch and
like once you stopped drinking for a while the whole
time I was like I knew. I was like, my
drinking's unsustainable. This is not situational, it's the fucking alcohol
and I'm going to.
Speaker 2: Have to stop. It was just a question of when you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah, so what did you do? Did you
go back to a meeting?
Speaker 1: I hired a sober coach? I did I found which
I'm a sober coach now. I found this woman Bell.
She had this blog called Tired of Thinking About Drinking.
She lived in Paris, and she had a hundred day challenge.
So the idea was don't drink for one hundred days
and if you sign up with her in her program,
you got a sober pen pal for a year. And
I freaking was a gold star girl. I wrote her
five times a week for like two years straight and
I was in the BFB. I posted again on day five.
I was so embarrassed because they knew I had a year,
and was like all raw rah, And then I like
went radio silent for two years and I was like, ooh,
I'm on day five, and like of course they welcomed
me back with like so much love, and I posted
their freaking daily for like they had this thirty sixty
ninety day challenge. I was there day forty you know,
day four hundred and forty two.
Speaker 2: I was like.
Speaker 1: Ridiculous, But that's how I stopped, and I just kept going.
Speaker 3: Yeah. When I when I first got sober, like for real,
for real, for real, fourteen years ago, I yeah, every
day I counted days. I mean, I was so sad
when I almost hit a year because I was like, well, now,
what what happens when it it's a year? Then I
don't then I don't get all the collapse and and
like you know, accolades for another whole year. Like because
at the beginning, when you're in a twelve step program,
you're like thirty days. When your first thirty days, you're
a newcomer, so you can constantly raise your hand and
say you're new, and people are like, you know, you're
just noticeable. And people come over to you and they
offer your phone their phone number, and they you know,
they like attack you. They they because sober people love
to help other sober people. Oh yeah, included. I get
super excited when somebody's new, you know, and that's how
we stay sober as we help another person stay sober.
So you know, I didn't really understand that at the beginning.
I was just like, Wow, these people really want me
to stay sober, you know. So I thought, oh, every
day every so the first thirty days, then you get
your next thirty. Then you have sixty days and you
get to raise your hand for that and come up
and get a chip, and then you have ninety days
and people are like going crazy for you. You know. I
thrive on that kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like like cause your reinforcement and like attention
and yeah, I know it.
Speaker 3: Likes on my Facebook posts, I like claps for my
sobriety days, like I'll I eat it up. You know.
So then you get like six months, then you get
nine months, and that's what I'm saying is then I
was like, oh no, Like I get I'm going to
have this birthday and people are going to be so
happy for me. But then what's going to happen between
year one and year two?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're like sixteen months every like yeah whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah. So I had a lot of like friends by then.
I had you know, my we call it, I called
it my posse, and I had a bunch of girls
and we were all, you know, doing the deal together
and that really helped. You know, I had my right
meetings and my go to Fatburger after my meeting and
hang with my girls, and like life started happening, and
you know, things started to feel better. And but I
always stayed close. You know, I'm not I didn't. I
definitely didn't do it perfectly at the beginning. I I
you know, I did it perfectly. I didn't drink, but
there were a lot of times, you know, I don't
want to make it seem like like looking back, there
were still those thoughts. I had a lot of that,
like feeling sorry for myself and maybe this was a mistake,
and comparing my story to other people's stories and like god,
like okay, yes I drove drunk, Like I know that's terrible,
but like look at this guy just had four DUIs,
Like of course he's here, but how do I don't
fit in here? Like I'm like a responsible mom, like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or being like well that was just bad luck.
Speaker 1: Or I mean in your book, you and you didn't
rationalize it to your husband at all, but you were like,
well I didn't eat anything and maybe X and maybe
why and like she was pouring too many of the
of the martinis or I mean, yeah a million times.
Speaker 3: Rand wants to protect yourself and you're drinking.
Speaker 1: And your ego like yes, yeah, Well so okay, I'm
dropping ahead because I know your story so well. But
will you tell people about like the New York Times
and Katie Couric and.
Speaker 3: Like, oh okay, all this right? So I so that
I make that blog post. This is just about why
I started having all these things happen at the beginning,
which is crazy. So I have this blog post. Well,
this New York Times parenting columnist named Lisa Belkin wrote
an article about me. Somehow she saw that. So my
blog was This might sound like not a small amount
of people, but I only had like maybe five hundred
people reading my blog. It was not even thousands. It
was a small readership, but out of I don't know
how she found it. But this parenting writer who had
a parenting column called The mother Load.
Speaker 2: Well she might have been on your blog, right, was
she following you?
Speaker 3: Possibly? I didn't recognize her name. So what happened is
I was it was like ten days now I was
like sober ten days and I had done it doesn't
really matter. All of a sudden I started getting these
calls and these emails asking me to do TV appearances,
and I was like, what, Like, how do people know
that I stopped drinking? It's been ten days? So I
got a call. Now I had been on the Doctor
Phil show before, so a Doctor Phil producer had gotten
hold of me. And I was like, I don't understand
what's happening. How are these people fight? How did these
people know? So I googled myself and I found out
that there was a column in the New York Times,
not the article that you read, but just somebody wrote
a column without consulting me, without saying I'm writing about
you quitting drinking.
Speaker 2: It kind of it sucked and I still get uncool.
I mean, I'm not in the meeting like that's not okay.
Speaker 3: I don't think it's cool.
Speaker 1: Because usually they'd ask you to comment, right, You would
think she would have reached out to me and been like, Wow,
this is really interesting.
Speaker 3: You decided to quit drinking. I'd like to make a
column about it. Do you want to comment? Right? You?
Speaker 2: And you would have been like, no, please don't do that.
Speaker 3: I absolutely would have said please don't, even though I
mean she basically outed me. Even though you could say
I outed myself, but I.
Speaker 1: Didn't like telling your girlfriends or something right or like
I don't.
Speaker 3: Know what, yeah, kind of, so I felt very embarrassed.
I felt like, now all of these strangers know this
about me. And also the comments were horrendous, like on
her column, Like once I found the column and read
it and was just like, and she excerpted my blog,
so yes, I tell I have a whole chapter in
my book and I call it outed that tells this story.
But basically she used my words in her blog, which
I was like, it's kind of lazy. But anyway, all
these people were like, oh, this woman never should have
had kids, like she's horrible. Mind you. I hadn't even
admitted the part about driving drunk. So these were people
that were just mad that I said that I had
a drinking problem and I drink too much and I'm
quitting and I quit.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like it was a pot or mad
I stopped or whatever.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's why it's so important to tell people who
get it, like in the BFB, because like, they don't
judge you for being the worst mom ever, They're just like, yeah,
of course you got addicted to this addictive substance, and
you were so fucking brave to like look at that
and try to stop.
Speaker 2: And so most people are like, so judgy.
Speaker 3: So judgy, And most of those people were not of
the You're so brave. There were a few of those,
but a lot of them. But this is just the Internet.
It's toxic, you know. So I kind of go into
not hiding, but like I'm like, I don't respond to
any That's how all these media people found it because
it was in the New York Times. So that's why
I was getting all these calls. So I refused. I
was like, absolutely not. I've been sober ten days. I
have nothing to share with anybody. But the New York
Times reached out to my book publishing company a different
like an actual New York Times writer, and she told
them I want to do an interview with her, and
I will make sure that it's like fit like a balance.
I just wanted to I want to give her a
chance to tell her story. And this was now I'd
been sober like four months, so I just thought, you know,
I'm already outed. I might as well be able to
say my side on a bigger platform, you know what
I mean? Like, I don't want to just be what
somebody else's interpretation. So I was like, okay, I'll be interviewed.
So she interviewed me, and I didn't At the time,
I was like making I was still trying to be funny,
like it was a serious interview. But at the very
end of it, I was like, hey, but like I
could still I made a joke about but vicodin is
still like and I of course I wasn't taking vicodin.
I thought I was being funny. I was sober four months.
I didn't know that you can't make a joke about that.
And so people were like, oh my god, she's probably
gonna be popping pills. And I was like, oh my lord, whatever.
But I didn't get a bunch of emails or like
Facebook messages from women and I was like oh, like
and I did not go like, oh, let me help you.
I was just like, yeah, I get it. I feel
for you. I'm right there with you. Like it's hard,
but you know. So then after that I got people
reached out like I did Doctor Oz and I did
a couple of TV appearances. Then when I was nine
months sober, I got asked to do twenty twenty, and
I was interviewed by Elizabeth Fargus. So each of these things,
so many women were reaching out to me and saying
thank you for sharing your story and relating. And I
felt like I felt not like it wasn't that I
enjoyed the attention at all, because I didn't. You know,
it's like negative attention in a way, right, You're getting
attention for something you feel humiliated about. Yeah, But I
also knew that I was helping people in much a
way that I felt like telling the truth, my truth
about having a baby, and that I didn't fall in
love at first sight, and that I didn't, you know,
care about my baby's first birthday that much, and all
these things that I was admitting that other women were like,
oh my god, thank god, because I thought I was
the only one. I was like, well, maybe maybe me
feeling humiliated is a small price to pay for women
to see themselves. Because at the time, I there was
no it was not there was no like sober zeitgeist.
At the time. It was still like very secretive and
kind of a weird thing that I was saying. The
rose all day was still going very strong at the beginning.
Speaker 1: Still going strong. I'd work out with women and they're
wearing Rose all day T shirts and I'm a little
bit like youw But yeah, I don't say that because
I used to have those. I mean, I didn't own
that one, but I would have, you.
Speaker 3: Know, right right right. I mean it was an odd
thing because you know, I wasn't telling people that I
drove drunk because I I had a lot of excuses
for that. In my head, it was like, well, if
I say that.
Speaker 2: And they're not required to tell everyone.
Speaker 3: I'm not. I'm not required. It's my personal story. Also
in my mind, I was like, well, I'm not required,
it's not lying. I'm still I'm telling a lot of things.
I'm just omitting that one thing. In my mind, I
was like, women are going to hear that, and they're
going to be like, well, I would never do that,
so therefore I must have yeah problem. That was my rationalization.
So cut to four years later, I get I hadn't
done much. I had kind of long since stopped doing
TV appearances about quitting drinking. But I got asked to
do Katie Kor's talk show, and at first I said no,
and I was like, I just don't want to keep
being known for this. But they were like, listen, you know,
we're going to have on we just want to talk
about the mommy drinking culture. And I was like, okay,
but you're not going to get what you think you
want out of it, because I'm not like trying to
reinstate prohibition. Like I believe that many women, including moms,
don't drink alcoholically, and that's great for them, and they
should be able to drink, like, let's stop judging everything
people are doing, and you know, and I still believed
that the drinking, the mommy drinking stuff is also like
how I wrote about it, like kind of a us
being rebellious and going like we're still fun and we're
still funny. And I don't believe that every woman that
wears a rose all day t shirt is drinking rose
all day. No.
Speaker 1: I don't either, although I feel like all those jokes
encourage binge drinking, you know, like some of the stuff
that like, you know, you see stuff that like dish
towels that are like I'm not slurring, I'm speaking in cursive,
you know, and I'm just kind of like, ew, yeah.
Speaker 3: But what I kind of came to realize too is
that a lot of women that are like making all
these drinking jokes are kind of like I was, except
minus the drinking problem, because I would be around these
women that are like, let's grab a bottle of wine
before the This is when I was sober. A lot
of moms at like like my kids elementary school, they
talked a good game about how much they all loved wine,
and then they would have like a half a glass
of wine and be like, oh, I'm good, I have to,
you know, drive, And I was like, everybody's so responsible, like,
you know, so my I guess my point is, like,
do I think it's great that we advertise alcohol as
a solution to new mom's genuine anxiety and lack of support? No, Like,
would it be better if we encouraged women to find
actual support, or we helped women, or we each other's village. Sure,
but I also don't necessarily think that, like we're not
allowed to make jokes about drinking. So my position was,
I haven't done a one eighty, and I'm not going
to sit there and judge women who have a glass
of wine. I'm but I am willing to tell my story.
Speaker 1: And you're also not judging women who struggle with alcohol. Right,
that's the great things. You get it and you understand it,
and you understand how it happens, and you don't think
that the worst people in the world the way, like
the judgment is the issue in addition to a bunch
of other stuff, you know.
Speaker 3: Really. Yeah, So so in my mind, I'm like, Okay,
I'll just do I'll do this show. But I told
them straight up, I'm not gonna like, I'm not going
to sit there and say, don't try to pit me
against somebody. Yeah, because you were going to have this
woman who had a face book group called like I
Forgot now, but it was like mommy needs or something,
you know. And I was like, I'm not gonna Oh
that's fine, but I'm not gonna I'm not your girl
if you think that's what I'm gonna do. And they
were like, no, no, no, that's fine. You just tell
your story. Well I had done this like a I
had done this show called Listen to Your Mother, and
I had told the story about driving drunk, and it
was the only time I had ever sort of publicly
told that story. Well I didn't know. I genuinely didn't
know that they had recorded it and it was on YouTube.
So I get this call from a producer like a
couple of nights before I was flying out to New
York to do the show, and the producer's like, hey,
we found this thing and she tells me what it is,
and like my heart dropped and she was like, where
you told this story about drinking and driving and Katie
wants to ask you about it? And I was like, oh,
absolutely not no, and she was like I really, she
really thinks it's gonna help help people, and you know,
I mean, and you did you know it is on YouTube?
And I was like, well, I didn't know it was
and I don't feel comfortable talking about that on national
television and no, I'm not going to talk about it.
And I said, now, I'd done a lot of TV
at this point, so I was not like, I'm not
trying to like brag, but I'm saying I wasn't like
impressed that I was going on Katie Cork. I was
only like half into it anyway. So I was like,
if if that's what's gonna happen, I would rather I don't.
I'm not coming and she was like so she was
like no, no, no, no, we please come, like, we
won't ask you about it. Well, then Katie asked me
about it, and I felt sabotaged. It was terrible. It
was a horrible feeling. But I was like, what am
I what I'm not gonna lie like, yeah, I'm not
gonna So it was a very uncomfortable moment and I felt,
you know, all the feelings of just I felt exposed
and scared and embarrassed. And I was just like, yeah, yeah,
I did that, and then I said and then I
that was my moment. And I haven't had a drink since,
which was true, and I had been like like four
years at that point. Yeah, and I felt I was
so mad afterwards, Casey, I was like freaking out. I
was really pissed. And my publicist was there because I
was doing a show at the time. I was on
a TV show, and the publicist for the TV show
it was a show for parents for moms. It was
on Nickelodeon Nick at Night, and I the publicists didn't
really understand what had just happened, and she wasn't even upset,
Like I was like, that wasn't supposed to happen, and
I wasn't going to say that, and she was like, whatever,
it's fine. I felt like, oh my god, I'm gonna
get kicked off this TV show, you know, But like
nothing bad happened, basically, and what I thought was going
to be just I don't know what I thought. I
thought I was gonna get the TV show taken away.
I thought parents, you know, people were gonna just be
judging so harshly. But what I got was a bunch
of moms again going oh my god, I relate to
your story really a problem too, And that was a
very ended up in retrospect being very freeing.
Speaker 1: Because this out there story, you were terrified that people
like you would be found out.
Speaker 2: Kind of thing.
Speaker 3: I felt like I had a secret.
Speaker 2: Yeah, but you still got to be pissed right like
I I was just.
Speaker 3: Katie Cork sucks. She really, like I mean, she told
I didn't want to talk about that, and she was
like exposing me, and it wasn't you know what I mean,
Like why, yeah, yeah, what's the reason for that?
Speaker 1: So did you cause of course I don't, like, I
know a ton of your story and I've followed it
and I didn't know about the.
Speaker 2: Katie Kurrk thing.
Speaker 1: Did you have any hesitation about putting that in this
book in Drunkish and cause you're obviously doing a lot
of press for it, like did you want to bring
that up again?
Speaker 2: And you know all that.
Speaker 1: Crap, because it's in your intro right when I was
reading it.
Speaker 2: I was like, oh, okay, I mean in your bio
right for the book.
Speaker 3: The thing is, I feel like it's all my story is.
There's like a progression to the quitting drinking. You know.
The book is basically I made it into kind of
two parts, so it's you know, what happened, what it
was like, and my childhood and all these things that
I think people can see the writing on the wall,
the addiction. The food addiction started with, you know, feeling
obsessed with sugar, like all the all the ways that
I couldn't see until later that I could look back
and go, oh, look, I had a father, a biological father,
who was a pill addict his whole life. I had
issues with food from a really young age. Like all
of these things I could go back, because I think
when people write books when they've only been sober a
couple of years, it's a little tougher. But I had
a lot of sobriety under my belt a lot.
Speaker 2: Of fourteen years right like right by the.
Speaker 3: Booking, Yeah, I mean, by the time the book comes out,
I'll be almost fifteen years sober. So I've had a
long time of doing the work of looking at my
life and looking at the things that have happened that
I could I could look back and see all that.
So once I got sober, the next part of the
book I felt was unraveling that shame and embarrassment and
get to like the freedom, right So part of that
I felt was how I got out it and how
different ways that I had accountability in different ways that like,
and that was part I felt like that was part of,
for lack of a better word, the journey in sobriety.
It's like holding onto that secret and thinking like, well,
if only people don't know about this part of it,
I'll be safe. And then having people find out that
part of it, I felt like was a big moment
where my sobriety opened up even a little bit more
because I had less I was less hiding.
Speaker 1: Well, and you have this big secret and it's out
there and then the world doesn't end, you know, and
that's a relief, right it was a relief, and I
didn't I don't think I did many other appearances or
talked about it that much.
Speaker 3: But you know, years went by, and you know there's
a lot of like twelve step stuff in the book.
But part of that is not really that I'm promoting
being in a twelve step program. It's that some of
the work of the twelve steps helped, like helps me
some of those tools, like apologizing, like learning to see
my part. Yeah, it's so important to my sobriety and that,
like regardless of whether you're doing that work in a
twelve step program like that. To me, the book is
like like looking like the last chapter, which I call
sorry about your Bachelorette Party, and this is you know,
was apologizing to this friend of mine who I like
fucked up her bachelorette party. But for years I held
on to like, oh my god, what what's the big deal?
Like it would be ridiculous if she was mad about
this and I got drunk and like left her the
dinner with like a married guy. I mean, my behavior
was bad. It was bad, but for so long I
was defiant and like defensive ways that I acted, and
like that was a flop and here's all the reasons
for that, and he was separated and he was you
know what I mean, and like, it's not. It wasn't
until getting sober that I realized, like part of the
part of staying sober for me had to be like
just taking responsibility.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, from total Oh oh my god. My sister's
like wedding. I was super young and I'd just broken
up with my boyfriend, and then I got Bell's palsy, which,
if anyone doesn't know that I was like twenty five,
in theory, its stress related, but also just like you
get a sinus. In fact, like half of my face
was paralyzed. I looked like Mary Joe but afuco you know,
if nobody knows.
Speaker 3: I do, and that just lend me Holy shit.
Speaker 1: If I knew I was gonna at Bell's palsy, I
wouldn't been so quick to break up with my college boyfriend,
like what the hell? And so then I was the
mad maid of honor in my sister's wedding and I
was way too young to be that she should have
chosen her best friend or something. And I brought my
two best friends because I had no date, and I
freaking got so dry. I mean I looked horrible in
the pictures. Half my face was paralyzed, Like it was humiliating.
And so I got so drunk that I like jumped
up on the stage to like give a toast, was
going to hug her afterwards, like trip slid across the
dance floor on my knees and then tried to like
pop up and play it off like I meant to
do it.
Speaker 2: And then at the end of the night, I like.
Speaker 1: Was trying to convince my best friends to like go
swimming in the river by where she was getting married,
and they were like, you're gonna fucking die like that
river it's fout, Like come on, we could do it.
I woke up the next world like so hungover. Didn't
remember a decent part of it, you know when people
tell you like I didn't remember wanting to swim in
the river, and like my whole family was there, like
my grandparents, my great uncles, Like I was just like,
holy shit, she know that. I was like, well, my
boyfriend broke up or I broke up with him, and
I have bell all the and like right right wedding.
Speaker 2: Why are these people so uptight? It was beyond inappropriate?
Speaker 3: Was your sister mad?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, who wouldn't be mad? Like what the fuck? Right?
Speaker 1: And like I also planned the worst bachelorette party ever.
I decided to take her to a strip club and
I didn't realize it was a gay strip club for men,
Like I just should not. I mean, you nobody should
pick a twenty five year old to be your maid
of honor in a wedding, Like it's you have no idea? Yeah,
it was terrible.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that is so funny and relatable. Yeah
as well?
Speaker 2: Is it relatable? And do a lot of try to
go swimming in the river people?
Speaker 3: Well, people that end up sober. A lot of us
have these kind of stories. Isn't that I.
Speaker 1: Love sober people because they have the best stories, right?
Speaker 3: I always say, like I don't necessarily like people that
just don't drink because they just never really like the
taste of alcohol, Like I, if you don't drink, it
should be because you've drank way too much.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, oh my god. I know. Like I have
friends who like, I'm always like, did you drink? Because
you seem so.
Speaker 1: Like responsible and they're like, oh my god, I met
this musician who was famous back in the day, and
we went to Paris for two months and I'm like, really,
you know, right, incredible, Well, so what's next for you? You
wrote this book and you're by the way, you're gonna
help so many people, and you helped me, and Carolyn
Knapp helped me like that. Those books are so and
you don't know that, like a decade later, someone's hiding
this book on their Kindle being like, holy shit for
the first time, you.
Speaker 3: Know, well, you know the book that helped me, even
though I read it way but well, Carolyn Napp's book,
but also Augustin burrows book Dry Love. That book one
of the first books I read about alcoholism that was
so laugh out loud funny to me, you know that
I could relate to that. I was like, oh my god,
I have thought that way, even though I was snowhere
near getting sober. I just thought he was a hilarious writer.
And I have revisited that book so many many times,
and now I just see how much I relate to it.
But yeah, that was a book that helped me. When
I got sober. I reread the book from cover to
cover and yeah, I mean, that's what I'm that's what
I'm hoping. I'm hoping that this book is something that
helps people. I'm hoping that my honesty, while embarrassing, because
there are so many I mean, I you know, I teach,
I teach. Memoir writing is one of the main things
that I do. And I feel like if you're not
making yourself uncomfortable and exposing things about yourself, then you're
not doing your job writing a memoir. So I always
have to just forget that anybody's going to read it
and like tell the secrets. So I'm hoping that me
humiliating myself a bit in this book and telling some
things that like are not like really proper to talk
about or tell helps people.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's will help people who've done that or
done something similar or feel like they're headed in.
Speaker 2: That way and being like, oh, she.
Speaker 1: Was there and it's okay, and she got out of
it and she's happier now, and like, you know.
Speaker 3: And I wanted to also, though, talk about the real
way that my brain worked after I quit drinking, because
I'd never want to give the impression that I was
immediately like, well, best decision of my life. I feel
great now, like no problem. Nothing to see here, Like, no,
it was a process and it was miserable at times,
and it was hard. And I want people to understand
that if they're newly sober, they're trying to do this
and they have anxiety, Like so did I. You know,
because a lot of times at the beginning of my sobriety,
I thought everybody else was doing sobriety better than me,
you know that, Like, and that's that's like a recurrent
theme with me. It's like when I was a new parent,
I was like, I don't know what I'm doing. Everybody's
doing it better than me. People are judging me. And
I felt that way, you know, I always feel that way.
I feel that way about writing. I'm like, oh, I'm
not a great writer like other people are so much.
Speaker 1: O that way when I became like a coach, I
became a life coach, and then I decided to work
with women in sobriety and went back to you know,
get that expertise. But I also when I started a podcast,
like even on the BFB, I was like, what are
people going to think who've been sober longer than me? Like,
who the hell am I to like start that you
know like that is so normal.
Speaker 3: I think I feel that way about a lot of
like old timers, people that have been sober like thirty years.
They're probably going to think it's very annoying that I'm
writing a book. But all I can do is write
about my experience. I'm not trying to teach anybody anything
in this book. It's that's why I told my publisher
I would like to write it as a memoir, sort
of like I wrote Sippy Cups, you know, about my experience.
It's not gonna it's an anti advice book. I'm not
telling anybody to do. This is like my what happened
to me and how I felt, And if you can
relate to the feelings and feel less alone, then I've
done my jo. Then I've done what I see.
Speaker 2: People will relate to your feelings.
Speaker 1: And I think just my two cents on the old timer,
because trust me, I felt I feel that too, and
I'm like, uh, who's gonna you know? But I always
tell people it is sometimes way more helpful to someone
in early sobriety to hear from someone at four months
or six months or even two months than it is
to hear from me at eight years, they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
you're fucking happy.
Speaker 2: I get it, you know what I mean. But if
someone's like, I'm at.
Speaker 1: Forty days and like it completely fucking sucked. But here's
the one thing that I'm really proud of, then that's
more relatable to them because it's more achievable.
Speaker 3: I agree. In fact, when I go to meetings, I
like to I like to be around people that are
brand new. I don't want I don't I don't get
anything from people that have been sober a million years
that are just quoting the Big Book and you know
all about the gratitude.
Speaker 2: Who cares.
Speaker 1: I want to hear from somebody to tell the same
stories all the fucking time, right, Yes, I'm like, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I've heard your No I'm terrible.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's you know what, it's helpful to hear.
It's helpful to go like, oh my gosh, that was
me not that long ago. It feels like people that
are struggling, you know.
Speaker 1: Well, two more things I wanted to mention because I've
kept you way, way, way too long, but I love
loved talking to you. Okay, Elizabeth Vargas interviewed you before
she admitted she was struggling with drinking in before she
went to rehab.
Speaker 2: By the way, she has.
Speaker 1: A fantastic book Between Breasts about anxiety but and drinking.
Speaker 2: But how is that? Did you know what I mean?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I believe the timeline though, was like,
I think it was two years after I was on
her show that she came out as an alcoholic, And
I was like wow, because she was such a great
interviewer to me, she was so locked in and interested,
and part of me was like, is she really really
good journalist or is she way too interested in this topic?
You know? And it was only when she came out
as an alcoholic that I was like, oh, okay, she
was soaking up stories.
Speaker 1: Was from reading her book, really really struggling at that point, you.
Speaker 3: Know, yeah, yeah she was yeah so and then and
then she relapsed and then she went back to rehab,
and I felt I felt terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I bet you helped her just by having
your story out there and having her interview you, you
know what I mean.
Speaker 3: So the author Mary Carr, who wrote the book lit,
who's uh, like a best selling author and she's written
a lot of books and she's so she was also
interviewed at the same time. I was so I think
we were interviewed in a row. And then I found
out later that Elizabeth Fargus went out to lunch with
my Carr after the interview, and I was so bummed.
Speaker 2: Oh, you're kiddings. She didn't invite you. Oh oh my god.
Speaker 3: Mary Carr had been sober like twenty years and I've
been sobered nine months. But still I was like, if
she's going to go out to lunch with somebody to
like pick their brain or whatever, like of course she
picked like the best selling halfor.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, well, does every sober person like read
every single quick lip book out there?
Speaker 2: Because I feel like I have.
Speaker 1: I've read every freaking book out there and I love them.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a great genre. I know. You interviewed
Laura Cathcart Robinson. My god, her book is so Bash
is really.
Speaker 2: And brave Dash.
Speaker 1: I will link to it in the show notes. Yeah,
because it's so brave and so relatable and amazing, and
I was so psyched to meet her in person. She
came up to Seattle to give a book talk about Stash,
and it was after I'd inter viewed her on the
podcast and it.
Speaker 2: Was so cool.
Speaker 3: That's awesome.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I've taken like way, way way more time.
Thank you so much, truly, this has been on my
bucket list to talk to you forever.
Speaker 3: This was really fun. This is like my most fun podcast.
Speaker 1: Oh cool, cool, Well, I'm sure you'll have a ton more.
Tell everyone how they can follow you. Find the book,
all the good stuff, watch your listen to your podcast.
Speaker 3: So I do a podcast called for Crying Out Loud.
That's every Tuesday and Friday everywhere you find podcasts with
my co host Lynette Corolla, and we talk about parenting
and I talk a lot about sobriety. There too. My
website Stephanie wildertailor dot com. You can find everything. You
can find my classes on there if you want to
take a memoir writing class. Yeah, and the book Drunkish
is out everywhere. Yeah, and so Noble.
Speaker 1: A lot of sober people are new sober people. Take
your memoir writing class, because I feel like that's something
that a lot of people, even if they never want
to published, kind of explore.
Speaker 3: Yeah. I get a lot. I get a lot of
sober people. I just get a lot of women. It's
only for women cool. I just been a lot of
people that have always wanted to try writing. And it's
a nice safe I keep my classes really small. It's
very loving and encouraging, and I just make it fun,
a safe place, a safe place for people to just
like tell a little bit of their story, whatever that
story is. And I help people figure out what story
they have to tell. So yeah, a lot of times
if people are sober, I'm like, well tell me, why
let me hear that story.
Speaker 1: Yeah no, I kind of like that. It's just women too,
because I don't know, writing a memoir is very vulnerable.
Speaker 3: It is, it is.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, thank you truly, thank you, Thank you so much,
Thank you for listening to this episode of the Hello
Sunday podcast. If you're interested in learning more about me,
the work I do, and access free resources and guides
to help you build a life you love without alcohol,
please visit Hellosdaycoaching dot com. And I would be so
grateful if you would take a few minutes to rate
and review this podcast so that more women can find
it and join the conversation about drinking less and living more.