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Speaker 6: You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking
Speaker 6: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 6: written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker VTK
Speaker 6: every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
Speaker 6: and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
Speaker 6: your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. Serial
Speaker 6: Slaughter is the story of the infamous Zodiac Killer, the
Speaker 6: killer Rome California, especially Northern California, for decades, he announced
Speaker 6: himself for dramatic flair, corresponding with law enforcement in the
Speaker 6: media in order to gain the attention he craved. This
Speaker 6: is the Zodiac speaking, and this is the murderer of
Speaker 6: the two teenagers last Christmas at Lake Kerman and the
Speaker 6: girl on the fourth of July, making sure they knew
Speaker 6: his kills, connecting the dots for them. Fading away as
Speaker 6: promised in nineteen sixty nine, he continued to kill and
Speaker 6: ceased to help those who would hunt him. Details now
Speaker 6: included are new. The crimes are looked at, thoroughly researched, investigated,
Speaker 6: and written about with a new perspective, great new finds
Speaker 6: of information. At last, to add to the story, the
Speaker 6: cases of murdered women and girls are brought back to
Speaker 6: the surface as the author works to bring attention once
Speaker 6: again to their cases. A book that we're featuring this
Speaker 6: evening is Serial Flauters Zodiac Killer, with my special guest
Speaker 6: journalist and author and Penn. Welcome to the program and
Speaker 6: thank you for this interview, and Penn.
Speaker 2: Hi Dan, thank you for having me.
Speaker 6: Thank you so much. An incredible story and incredible timing
Speaker 6: for this, especially in light of just a recent post
Speaker 6: on Facebook regarding a certain Gary post and the claim
Speaker 6: that the Zodiac was finally named. Let's talk about how
Speaker 6: you first became involved with this, why you wanted to
Speaker 6: tell this story, and what this story is really about.
Speaker 2: Well, it's just further research, deeper dive into what is
Speaker 2: out there to be found about the Statisica Killer. There's
Speaker 2: just so many murders in the state of California. Being
Speaker 2: California native, it's important to solve cold cases.
Speaker 6: You say that you have to go back to the beginning.
Speaker 6: You say there was more than one serial killer roaming
Speaker 6: California in the sixties and the seventies, and you want
Speaker 6: to answer the question what happened to the Zodiac killer?
Speaker 6: And you say, in what in reality, what could be
Speaker 6: true about what happened? So that was your goal and
Speaker 6: that's your intent of this book. You say that in
Speaker 6: nineteen sixty nine that there was more than what happened
Speaker 6: with the Zodiac. After sixty nine, people say he walked away,
Speaker 6: and you say he just walked away from aspects of
Speaker 6: the Zodiac persona.
Speaker 2: Correct, he continued to kill the Psychi said he would,
Speaker 2: and he did go too far away to do it.
Speaker 2: And many a serial killer when it comes to how
Speaker 2: he drove into areas and committed crimes and drove out.
Speaker 2: And that's what he did at Zodiac. As we know
Speaker 2: anybody that's familiar with the story. Each kill was usually
Speaker 2: during a weekend or a holiday, and he would just
Speaker 2: decide that he was going to do this particular kill
Speaker 2: after he'd talked to someone most likely, and drive off.
Speaker 2: And that's what he did over and over and it
Speaker 2: was almost like a testing ground for him for that
Speaker 2: one year.
Speaker 6: Yes, you say that he said, I shall no longer
Speaker 6: announced anyone when I commit my murders. They show look
Speaker 6: like routine robbery's killings of anger and a few fake accidents,
Speaker 6: et cetera. Early in this book you talk about some
Speaker 6: of the evidence that you've on Earth in terms of
Speaker 6: you say that the Zodiac was an avid reader and
Speaker 6: would read newspapers. Tell us what you found in your
Speaker 6: theory about articles and him reading articles and then his
Speaker 6: list right.
Speaker 2: Well, what it looks like in researching in depth is
Speaker 2: that one of the things we know that he did
Speaker 2: was like to get media attention law enforcement, and he
Speaker 2: liked to have not only his information posted in the newspapers,
Speaker 2: but he wanted to see what he could find out
Speaker 2: about his crimes and what they said about him. And
Speaker 2: you know, he was a media hog, and so what
Speaker 2: he did he was absolutely addicted, in my opinion, to
Speaker 2: reading the newspaper. And when I researched further into to
Speaker 2: different people who were murdered over time from nineteen sixty
Speaker 2: nine moving forward, what it looks like happened from the
Speaker 2: research was that if someone was on his list, like
Speaker 2: for example, there's a Leona Roberts who was murdered, and
Speaker 2: she had had her announcement in the newspaper for getting married,
Speaker 2: and it looks really suspicious that here a few months
Speaker 2: later she's murdered. And this is in December of nineteen
Speaker 2: sixty nine. And so there were lots of different things
Speaker 2: that happened over time where there were murders decade after
Speaker 2: decade where if you look back and you go, Okay,
Speaker 2: what happened prior to this person being murdered. Were they
Speaker 2: in the newspaper a lot? Did they get a lot
Speaker 2: of attention? What is the connection? And so that's what
Speaker 2: I went after in many many of these murders that
Speaker 2: happened over time in different areas, and a lot of
Speaker 2: those are around the Sacramento area, and interestingly enough, it
Speaker 2: appears that there were a lot of times where law
Speaker 2: enforcement would talk amongst themselves and even mentioned it in
Speaker 2: the new newspaper that maybe these murders were the Zodiac
Speaker 2: in Sacramento.
Speaker 6: Right. You talk about these crimes in California, and you
Speaker 6: talk about the crime wave that was happening in the
Speaker 6: sixties and seventies regarding rape and murder, you say that
Speaker 6: there was a lot of rapes and murders, but there
Speaker 6: was a lot of similarities in a lot of the
Speaker 6: rapes and murders that were never solved.
Speaker 2: Well, what it shows is there was a serial killer.
Speaker 2: There was more than one. Of course, there were several
Speaker 2: actually during the eighties in particular, but there were others
Speaker 2: out there killing people and picking up hitchhikers and dumping
Speaker 2: bodies and so on. But what the pattern around Sacramento
Speaker 2: looked like was that there were murder after murder where
Speaker 2: women were picked up and dumped right across the county
Speaker 2: line from Sacramento County into Sutter County, for example. There
Speaker 2: were so many of them that were picked up in
Speaker 2: the North Highlands area and driven right across into less
Speaker 2: than miles and dumps in that same area. And this
Speaker 2: also went decade after decade, and there were just so
Speaker 2: many of them. It's amazing to me that the task
Speaker 2: force wasn't put together in a very serious way to
Speaker 2: figure out who was doing this, because what it appeared
Speaker 2: was not only did the detectives talk about what it
Speaker 2: might be and that eventually Donna Last might be connected
Speaker 2: to the Takari murder, and did the Vnole murder and
Speaker 2: so on, they would talk about it, and then nothing
Speaker 2: would come of it. They just wandered off and didn't
Speaker 2: talk about it anymore.
Speaker 6: In the news, you talk about the descriptions of Zodiac
Speaker 6: as well, what were you What does your investigation on
Speaker 6: Earth about the conflicting descriptions.
Speaker 2: Well, you know, composites are pretty awful. You can't really tell.
Speaker 2: But back in the nineteen sixties I have a chapter
Speaker 2: about just composites. Every guy in the world looked just
Speaker 2: like Zodiac with their glasses and their crew cut hair
Speaker 2: and so on. And it's really kind of funny. But
Speaker 2: some of the descriptions that came about from some of
Speaker 2: the victims, actually we're pretty close to composites that were
Speaker 2: drawn later on about another serial killer, and they were
Speaker 2: pretty close. And these are again from the victims like
Speaker 2: Mike Majeu and then also from Cecilia Shepherd. So one
Speaker 2: of the things that Mike talked about or identified as
Speaker 2: the perpetrator eventually was Arthur. And what's interesting about the
Speaker 2: way Arthur looked at the time, and I have pictures
Speaker 2: of what he looked like, is how similar he looked
Speaker 2: to another serial killer that would know of and that
Speaker 2: he identified. But then also we know that the witnesses
Speaker 2: to the paul Stein murder didn't think he looked like
Speaker 2: Arthur at all. They said, no, that's not him. But
Speaker 2: Robert Graysmith did not interview them because that would have
Speaker 2: changed his story and his narrative. So it's all interesting
Speaker 2: how it all sort of crisscrossed.
Speaker 6: You talk about this paul Stein being very important murder,
Speaker 6: and also that Robert Graysmith fictionalized one aspect of it,
Speaker 6: at least in terms of that it was a foggy,
Speaker 6: misty night, which would prevent or inhibit witnesses from getting
Speaker 6: a good look at the perpetrator. But you say that
Speaker 6: in fact that maybe police should have relied on those
Speaker 6: descriptions more so. Oh yeah, for sure explained.
Speaker 2: What's interesting about the composite that came from the actual
Speaker 2: witnesses of the Stein murder is that they saw him
Speaker 2: in really good light. It wasn't foggy internesty, and it
Speaker 2: was it was right below their window, really and there
Speaker 2: was a lot of light. He had the door opened
Speaker 2: to the cab. What's interesting about who they saw was
Speaker 2: originally they described him as the younger version of himself.
Speaker 2: I think it was twenty eight to thirty or twenty
Speaker 2: five to thirty, and later on when the police put
Speaker 2: out posters and composits, they ended up revising that and
Speaker 2: making him older somewhere more around forty five, and that
Speaker 2: was their narrative. And I didn't understand why that was so,
Speaker 2: because the actual witnesses saw him and he was the
Speaker 2: younger version. That would be about the right age. He
Speaker 2: was probably around twenty four at the time, right, The
Speaker 2: guy with the that they just tried to identify a
Speaker 2: week or so ago, and it was like, oh, look,
Speaker 2: he has the same lines in his forehead as the composite,
Speaker 2: so what you know.
Speaker 6: So yeah, let's just briefly touch on that, not to
Speaker 6: give it too much credence. But for those people that
Speaker 6: didn't see the follow up story that has uh it
Speaker 6: had looked like it had some potential because of the headlines,
Speaker 6: but in reality, there's not much to this at all.
Speaker 6: To Gary, I.
Speaker 2: Had people contact, Yeah, I have people contacting and asked me, Hey,
Speaker 2: what's the story, And I said, it's not him, it's
Speaker 2: not real, it's not it's you know. And a few
Speaker 2: days later, the FBI came along and there's an article
Speaker 2: on the paper that said that they did not give
Speaker 2: any credence to that id either. And the thing that
Speaker 2: you know, immediately stood out to me, Well, there were
Speaker 2: a couple of things. One was the discussion about Cherry
Speaker 2: Jobates and the Zodiac did not kill Cherry Jobates. And
Speaker 2: if you know it in the articles, the Riverside PD
Speaker 2: didn't even talk to me these guys. It appears it
Speaker 2: sounded like they really didn't want to discuss that case.
Speaker 2: And of course they didn't want to be in aid
Speaker 2: a test and so on. And the reason is because
Speaker 2: the Riverside already has a full profile of Scherry Joe
Speaker 2: Bates killer. They've had it for years and years. They
Speaker 2: feed it into code. Is it's not him? It's not
Speaker 2: the Zodiac. It's a completely different killer. The story just
Speaker 2: took on a life of its own and it's remained
Speaker 2: there all these years. So that's the first thing that
Speaker 2: was wrong with the story that came out with these
Speaker 2: guys that said they idd them. They don't even realize
Speaker 2: that Cherry Joe Bates was not killed by Zodiac. And
Speaker 2: the second thing had to do with a story about
Speaker 2: Donna Last hanging from a tree and trying to find
Speaker 2: her in the forest. That just this seems too far
Speaker 2: fetched to me, because I've actually talked to the detectives
Speaker 2: up here in the Tahoe I say, up here in
Speaker 2: the mountains in the Tahoe area. I've spoken to him
Speaker 2: and made him pull out all the files and all
Speaker 2: the microfilm, and unfortunately a lot of these files are
Speaker 2: so old. They mentioned that the birds got into files
Speaker 2: or something happened to him, and they had to pull
Speaker 2: reports for microfish for me, and the story is not
Speaker 2: like what they tell.
Speaker 6: Let's get to your idea of what happened to the
Speaker 6: Zodiac after nineteen sixty nine, after supposedly police and the
Speaker 6: media believed that he had walked away, but he had
Speaker 6: made this promise. So how did authorities approach that promise
Speaker 6: and what did you find in terms of what you
Speaker 6: believed the Zodiac did after saying that he was going to.
Speaker 2: Walk away, Well, he told them exactly what he was
Speaker 2: going to do. He told them every step of the
Speaker 2: way what he was doing and what he was going
Speaker 2: to do. And I believe every word of what he said.
Speaker 2: He said he was going to walk off and not
Speaker 2: tell them, not connect for them the murders, and what
Speaker 2: he also said was he was going to make them
Speaker 2: look like accidents. He was going to use knives and whatever.
Speaker 2: He had a different menagerie of things he was going
Speaker 2: to use to tail and not tell them about it.
Speaker 2: And that's exactly what he did. Because he knew that
Speaker 2: if he went across the jurisdics no lines, and if
Speaker 2: he killed people by bludgend by knife, by shooting them
Speaker 2: by you know, he changed up his them all across
Speaker 2: time and space, that his chances were pretty slim that
Speaker 2: they would figure out who he was. And that's exactly
Speaker 2: what he did. It was like he drew him a
Speaker 2: map and said, Okay, here's what I'm going to do.
Speaker 2: And it even says in some of the hidden messages
Speaker 2: that we have discovered in the letters that he sent,
Speaker 2: there are hidden messages that all the misspelled words actually
Speaker 2: spell out hidden messages, and they are about some of
Speaker 2: the things he said, like, for example, wig I like,
Speaker 2: he likes wigs. He liked wigs, He used disguises, and
Speaker 2: he did anything he felt like. And so that's what
Speaker 2: you see moving forward, that that's what he continued to do.
Speaker 2: He wasn't kidding. He continued to kill.
Speaker 6: In your investigation, you looked at all kinds of rapes
Speaker 6: and murders, abductions, offented abductions, what was the mo the
Speaker 6: victim all and more importantly, just the thing that you
Speaker 6: felt signified that this was a zodiac continuing to perpetrate.
Speaker 2: Well, he mostly killed women, and that was his thing.
Speaker 2: He killed couples. He continued to do that in different ways,
Speaker 2: by blegend by shooting them. They're different murders that you
Speaker 2: can tell they have to be him. He just continued.
Speaker 2: He and one of the threats he did make was
Speaker 2: that he was going to pick off kiddies coming off buses. Well,
Speaker 2: he never blew anyone up, but what he did do
Speaker 2: was make people vanish into thin air. For example, kids
Speaker 2: getting off the bus, fourteen year old, fifteen year old,
Speaker 2: you know, twelve year old, you name it. I mean
Speaker 2: he had a menagerie of you know, younger girls and
Speaker 2: then and he also killed women. But with the ones
Speaker 2: that he took after school off the bus or going
Speaker 2: to the bus in the morning, they were there one
Speaker 2: second and gone the next, and most of the time
Speaker 2: no one saw anything. He was like a phantom. But
Speaker 2: their bodies would turn up and want lot of times
Speaker 2: in the same jurisdiction. You know, he liked to dump
Speaker 2: them where fishermen would find them. And he just continued
Speaker 2: on and on. And what's interesting moving forward too, is
Speaker 2: that the famous Paul Avery ended up in Sacramento doing
Speaker 2: crime writing for the Sacramento Bee, and he ended up
Speaker 2: running across the case. The first case actually right after
Speaker 2: he was hired. Within three days after he was hired,
Speaker 2: he got involved with the murder of Catherine Harlan. She
Speaker 2: was nine years old, disappeared from the bus. And also
Speaker 2: they decided after a while to charge him with abducting
Speaker 2: someone called Katherine Hagen Bush. And eventually those charges were
Speaker 2: dropped against this guy, who had an IQ of about
Speaker 2: sixty three named Fred, but Paul Avy was very instrumental
Speaker 2: in that case. He wrote a huge story about it,
Speaker 2: the biggest story that Sacronabe had ever had about a crime.
Speaker 2: That was almost like they tried to say he was
Speaker 2: trying the case in the paper, but what he said
Speaker 2: ended up being absolutely true, and he was in to
Speaker 2: getting talent in that world. Did you know arrest a
Speaker 2: guy with the sixty three IQ for these murders are
Speaker 2: too compact? So long story short, he was there in
Speaker 2: Sacramento writing about the crimes around Sacramento and all the murders.
Speaker 2: He had to know something was going on down there.
Speaker 6: You talk about the Zodiac contacting law enforcement and media
Speaker 6: after this, obviously he said he wasn't going to communicate
Speaker 6: with the media. But it's interesting that he would not
Speaker 6: crave that kind of attention. And you say that there
Speaker 6: about crimes, you're saying that he moved on to a
Speaker 6: different type of taunting.
Speaker 2: Right exactly. He changed too. He contacted and he stopped
Speaker 2: calling the media for the most part. What he did
Speaker 2: instead was he I think he wrote letters to crime
Speaker 2: beasts and said did you guys solve this? And they
Speaker 2: would write in the paper Crime Watches that know, it
Speaker 2: hadn't involved, it's an open case and so on. The
Speaker 2: Other thing that he did was call people. But what
Speaker 2: he did was call the victims. He called the victims
Speaker 2: and the victims' family. There are murders where he calls
Speaker 2: and calls and says, you know, they're like, you know
Speaker 2: where she is and he just laughs and hangs up,
Speaker 2: you know, like I or I killed her and things
Speaker 2: like that. Just really obnoxious, rotten things that he would
Speaker 2: do to the families and the victims themselves. So he
Speaker 2: found a way to half people.
Speaker 6: You talk about the progression and some of his behavior
Speaker 6: when he started off. Let's talk about how you connect
Speaker 6: some of these crimes to another serial killer.
Speaker 2: Well, just what do they say about coincidences? There's too
Speaker 2: many to be coincidences. To me, thinks they're the same.
Speaker 2: You know, there was a serial killer in Sacramento for
Speaker 2: forty years basically in surrounding areas. And admittedly, some of
Speaker 2: the crimes that I have investigated were so exactly, so
Speaker 2: absolutely the same with bludgeoning, knocking somebody's teeth out, bashing
Speaker 2: their faces and their heads in different things that were
Speaker 2: done were so exactly the same as far as his time,
Speaker 2: you know what he found, he liked to do the best,
Speaker 2: et cetera. But also some of the things he said
Speaker 2: over time about how he had to get to Mexico,
Speaker 2: different things that he said to the victims themselves. There
Speaker 2: are people who actually survived and could tell you what
Speaker 2: was said. I spoke to Brian Hartnell at one point.
Speaker 2: I've spoken to different other people that were involved in
Speaker 2: a story, and it's interesting how similar this serial killer was,
Speaker 2: the one that morphed into what he became later on.
Speaker 6: So when you talk about the Zodiac over the years,
Speaker 6: there have been a number of suspects that have surfaced,
Speaker 6: and in this book you go through those and you
Speaker 6: ask the question or you tell why that they were
Speaker 6: a suspect in the first place, and then why it
Speaker 6: was dismissed. Can you talk about a couple of those
Speaker 6: more primary suspects and it might have looked good to
Speaker 6: some people, and why they were dismissed.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, a lot of people realize a time why
Speaker 2: most of the suspects of the Zodiac Killer of being
Speaker 2: the Zodiac Killer were dismissed because there really was no
Speaker 2: real evidence and there's no fingerprints, there's no you know, DNA.
Speaker 2: There's there's nothing to actually connect someone to the Zodiac.
Speaker 2: The profiles that they have are partial profiles at best.
Speaker 2: A criminalist on a show that I was watching was
Speaker 2: basically going through that and saying why it's not really useful. Meanwhile,
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen, I think it was the LAYOPD announced
Speaker 2: they were going to do retesting and we should have
Speaker 2: some results soon. And here it is three years later
Speaker 2: and you haven't heard a word from them because they
Speaker 2: really don't have any usable DNA in my opinion, and
Speaker 2: they don't have any fingerprints that tie anyone to the
Speaker 2: crimes of you know, the Zodiac when he killed Paulp's time.
Speaker 2: People like to argue about the fingerprints left cab, there's
Speaker 2: any usable anything. The only thing I would test for,
Speaker 2: if I were to be the one to do it,
Speaker 2: would be to see if the shirt that he ripped
Speaker 2: in the cab has any touch DNA or anything. But
Speaker 2: everything is just so degraded after fifty some years that
Speaker 2: it's probably not going to be usable. And that's what
Speaker 2: they say.
Speaker 6: You talk about Arthur Lee Allen and why he was included. Obviously,
Speaker 6: there's a movie Believe two thousand and seven I believe
Speaker 6: or to anyway, the movie Zodiac, Why is Arthur Allen
Speaker 6: Lee not a viable.
Speaker 2: Suspect, Well, they cleared him with DNA eventually before he died,
Speaker 2: I believe, or was it right after, But basically the
Speaker 2: DNA that they have it, they can not the DNA
Speaker 2: they have that we were able to figure out that
Speaker 2: it wasn't him. Whatever profile they have, their partial profile.
Speaker 2: And also he is a pedophile only really the Zodiac
Speaker 2: would continue on and he didn't seem to discriminate between
Speaker 2: children nine year old, twelve year olds, fifteen year olds,
Speaker 2: and then women that were twenty eight thirty. Didn't seem
Speaker 2: to matter the age of the victim. It was just
Speaker 2: the ease of taking them and ledging them to death
Speaker 2: or shooting them or whatever he felt like. There are
Speaker 2: a couple of instances later on too, where people just
Speaker 2: danished from their home, vanishing the thin air.
Speaker 6: What about other suspects like Ross Sullivan.
Speaker 2: Well, he had mental health issues. But you know, one
Speaker 2: of the things about the serial killer is that he
Speaker 2: was organized, he was methodical. He was I think he
Speaker 2: had OCD in that he kept track of everything he did.
Speaker 2: I don't think some of the people with mental health
Speaker 2: issues that were brought forward as suspects really could do
Speaker 2: you know what he did and sustain it, you know,
Speaker 2: So Russ Sullivan, to me, he just was not a
Speaker 2: viable suspect. And it might people feel that way about him,
Speaker 2: even if his name isn't any kind of cipher, or
Speaker 2: if it isn't, he's really not a viable suspect in
Speaker 2: my opinion.
Speaker 6: And were there any other suspects that you dealt with
Speaker 6: in your book and dismissed.
Speaker 2: Well, one of them, I figure out how to pronounce
Speaker 2: his name's mister bell Qvel. She was in micro Deeli,
Speaker 2: his book, and I found that fascinating, more fascinating than
Speaker 2: most actually, and it's really the only book that I've
Speaker 2: looked at. But he thought that it was him, and
Speaker 2: I can see why in a particular way because he
Speaker 2: was an older gentleman and he lived in the presidio.
Speaker 2: But I don't believe it it's him either, for many reasons.
Speaker 2: But anyway, and it was a fascinating read because of
Speaker 2: the fact that his suspect was an older gentleman. He
Speaker 2: was old enough to have been in World War Two.
Speaker 2: But he actually knew that they were looking at him
Speaker 2: while he was so alive as a suspect for the Zodiac,
Speaker 2: and he and he sort of sat across the table
Speaker 2: from the author and an investigator and you know, went
Speaker 2: through it and said, well, why do you think I'm
Speaker 2: the suspect? So but I don't, you know, I believe
Speaker 2: what I believe for many many reasons, and the circumstantial
Speaker 2: evidence that I've collected makes my logical sense to me.
Speaker 2: And also, mister Tuvall was too awful to the Zodiac
Speaker 2: in my opinion.
Speaker 6: Before we talk about who you really believe the Zodiac
Speaker 6: killer morphed into, let's talk about Richard Marshall and why
Speaker 6: he was suspected, because this is a very interesting suspect,
Speaker 6: and just be I'd like to fascinating again coincidence.
Speaker 2: A coincidence that one I'm not as familiar with off
Speaker 2: the top of my head because there's so many details
Speaker 2: and so many different suspects. I just brought forth the
Speaker 2: first five or six different suspects over time that were possibilities,
Speaker 2: but there were ones that were one in particular that
Speaker 2: really kind of caught my attention, and I thought, why
Speaker 2: would anybody I think Ted Kaczynski was a Zodiac killer,
Speaker 2: but it was because he tarted to blow up people.
Speaker 2: But his manifest was way different in what his causes
Speaker 2: were than what the Zodiac. The Zodiac did this just
Speaker 2: for fun, just because he wanted to and because he
Speaker 2: could so and as far as he said, Richard Marshall,
Speaker 2: Marshalls you wanted to talk.
Speaker 6: About, Yeah, Richard Marshall was the well what he was
Speaker 6: just a projectionist. But what I thought was very interesting
Speaker 6: is that he became a suspect. It looks like because
Speaker 6: he liked these old movies, including The Red Phantom, which
Speaker 6: was mentioned in a nineteen seventy four Zodiac.
Speaker 2: Letter, right, So yeah, it was kind of interesting the
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence that they brought forward because he was in
Speaker 2: Riverside in nineteen sixty six and he was near where
Speaker 2: Sign was murdered and things like that, so I can
Speaker 2: see why they took a look at him. And that
Speaker 2: was also The Red Pantom. He's just kind of a
Speaker 2: weird guy, so and he had a typewriter and it's hell,
Speaker 2: it's similar to what the Zodiac was using apparently at
Speaker 2: the time.
Speaker 6: So very interesting.
Speaker 2: They ruled him out though, Yeah, that is with their suspects,
Speaker 2: especially back in before the DNA.
Speaker 6: Were these suspects suspects of the police or were they
Speaker 6: suspects for people online? Because this has garnered so much
Speaker 6: attention over the years.
Speaker 2: Well, these were, you know, originally people they looked at
Speaker 2: in the beginning of different people brought other people forward,
Speaker 2: like giving the case of Arthur al and you know,
Speaker 2: somebody else said well look at this guy. He's been
Speaker 2: in trouble for this, or he's done this or that,
Speaker 2: and so other people were usually instrumental and bringing a
Speaker 2: suspects forward.
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Speaker 6: Now. What we were talking about is you have put
Speaker 6: together an analysis of the crimes of Zodiac and then
Speaker 6: what happened afterwards in the crimes that you attribute to
Speaker 6: the Zodiac. But again you believe that there's another serial
Speaker 6: killer that he morphed into. So before we name that person,
Speaker 6: give us some more information on the similarities that struct
Speaker 6: you as more than coincidence. And then your analysis and
Speaker 6: research and further investigation have made you, as you write
Speaker 6: in the book, one hundred and ten percent sure of
Speaker 6: your conclusions.
Speaker 2: Right. Well, like I said, when you see serial killers
Speaker 2: and the murders that happen in the Sacramento area in
Speaker 2: particular over time, and then also around the surrounding areas,
Speaker 2: the geography is really close. The layout is not far
Speaker 2: from Sacramento. Everything around the area in San Francisco is
Speaker 2: not very far. It's just really close by. And so
Speaker 2: I kind of get an analysis of each one of
Speaker 2: the murders at the beginning with Zodiac just a little
Speaker 2: bit of information at the beginning, and then I talk
Speaker 2: about all the different murders that happened quite a few
Speaker 2: of them are in here from seventies to sixties, and
Speaker 2: what kept happening over time was that people were killed
Speaker 2: in various ways and they were dumped across jurisdictional lines.
Speaker 2: Instead of killing in a jurisdiction and then moving to
Speaker 2: another jurisdiction and killing, what he was doing was killing
Speaker 2: in what particular county and then dumping bodies in another county.
Speaker 2: Or he would move from you again, county to county,
Speaker 2: different jurisdictional lines, very aware of what he was doing,
Speaker 2: and would attack a lot of times in the same
Speaker 2: exact ways. Sometimes he would sexually assault people and sometimes
Speaker 2: he wouldn't. Sometimes the mood was I'm going to go
Speaker 2: kill somebody that some of the dates are the same.
Speaker 2: He really, really really seemed to like over and over
Speaker 2: to kill on Labor Day weekend. September sixth was a
Speaker 2: date that heard over and over again. And the disappearance
Speaker 2: of Elast was September sixth, nineteen seventy, and this is
Speaker 2: a date that comes up over and over again. So
Speaker 2: the anniversaries of dates that he liked to kill was
Speaker 2: a consistent it's a consistent over time. I don't want
Speaker 2: to say the fact that John Alas was taken after
Speaker 2: work the way that I see it, and I talked
Speaker 2: to the detective about it, I said, you know, he
Speaker 2: was looking at well G back in nineteen seventy. This
Speaker 2: is new new information. By the way, is that a
Speaker 2: lot of people thought that she didn't finish her her
Speaker 2: call logue that night, that she was taken maybe from
Speaker 2: the casino. She wasn't she finished her call log. I
Speaker 2: have that in my possession. They thought possibly that she
Speaker 2: had been taken right out of work. They weren't sure
Speaker 2: if she was taken in California or Nevada. About when
Speaker 2: we look at the Nevada records of the crime, it
Speaker 2: appears that she was taken from there and then vanished.
Speaker 2: But what's interesting is is that her car was parked
Speaker 2: in the parking lot of her apartment. And this happened also,
Speaker 2: by the way, over and over again, over time, and
Speaker 2: every single jurisdiction, there are murders of women where their
Speaker 2: car is parked where it was supposed to be, but
Speaker 2: they're gone, They're absolutely vanished. There's a lot of murders
Speaker 2: that happened where people were taken, like for example, in
Speaker 2: Granite Bay, California, where the women are taken and they're
Speaker 2: found dead in their cars, So you know, again he
Speaker 2: changed up what he was doing to try to confuse
Speaker 2: people over jurisdictional lines. Over and over he killed by bludgeends,
Speaker 2: by nighte by gun, by strangle, you name it. And
Speaker 2: the other thing that he did over and over was
Speaker 2: try to set other people up for what he had done.
Speaker 2: There are examples of people who got put away because
Speaker 2: of circumstantial evidence, and I'm sure he thought it was
Speaker 2: extremely funny. The other thing he did was attack in
Speaker 2: areas where he had particular grudges with people. If people
Speaker 2: had been in the news a lot, for example, a
Speaker 2: police person was in the news, a police officer maybe
Speaker 2: would make their family member go missing or something like
Speaker 2: that would happen. So there's just I've checked it really well,
Speaker 2: and I think I've explained it pretty well in this book.
Speaker 2: How he operated.
Speaker 6: Why is it you believe that he was able to
Speaker 6: operate undetected that some of the things that you looked at,
Speaker 6: some of the things that.
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Speaker 6: To Busy Whatsy retails seem eerily similar, especially in light
Speaker 6: of the last few years. As you write about forensic
Speaker 6: technology and DNA advances. Why didn't they see some of
Speaker 6: the things that you're seeing? Why you was your particular
Speaker 6: perspective more crucial?
Speaker 2: Well, I think that what's interesting is this is such
Speaker 2: a huge story. Let's go back and say, gee, first
Speaker 2: year Zodiac that we knew of him, that we actually
Speaker 2: formerly knew of him. From nineteen sixty eight to sixty nine,
Speaker 2: he contacted the media, he showed them how he was
Speaker 2: going to do this. He killed couples, and then he
Speaker 2: killed Paul Stein, who was the outlier. And then what
Speaker 2: happened is he says, I'm not going to do it
Speaker 2: like this anymore because he knew he had to move
Speaker 2: on because if he continued doing what he was doing,
Speaker 2: sooner or later, they're going to figure out what he
Speaker 2: was doing. Well, as he continued on later on, if
Speaker 2: they had looked at him as thoroughly as they maybe
Speaker 2: could have. Because there were so many murders in Sacramento
Speaker 2: and the surrounding areas, I mean, it's insane. That's why
Speaker 2: it's named Cereal Slaughter. Because there are so many dead
Speaker 2: bodies showing up. I'm sure that they must have been
Speaker 2: overwhelmed in every jurisdiction. Sometimes people in Cutter County would
Speaker 2: be taken to the more there into the medical exameter there,
Speaker 2: or they'd switched him back and forth to Sack County,
Speaker 2: and so some kinds of different things were going on
Speaker 2: but a lot of times it seems as though they
Speaker 2: had so many murders that they either were so overwhelmed
Speaker 2: that they didn't really a case would go cold, and
Speaker 2: then they'd go to the next one and so on.
Speaker 2: They just didn't either have the manpower or I don't
Speaker 2: know what to continue through to find this guy. Because
Speaker 2: if they had, if a task had been put together,
Speaker 2: like what they did with said Bundy, for example, where
Speaker 2: they worked together and they said, we're going to figure
Speaker 2: out who the heck this guy is. And of course
Speaker 2: he was kind of stupid when it came to said Bundy,
Speaker 2: was kind of a little bit more careless as he
Speaker 2: went on in time. Sure he ended up, you know,
Speaker 2: being a lot more careless than he got himself caught.
Speaker 2: But this guy the Zodiac, he was meticulous, and he
Speaker 2: knew exactly what to do and what not to do
Speaker 2: to call attention to himself, and he threw a lot
Speaker 2: of confusion into every murder that he did. There's a
Speaker 2: couple murders in Sacramento in nineteen seventy eight and nineteen eighty, respectively,
Speaker 2: where the women who were killed were right there a
Speaker 2: green belt area. They were in the easter a rapist
Speaker 2: attack zones, and they were killed. You know, one of
Speaker 2: them jumped off of a balcony and he got hurt
Speaker 2: somewhere along the way. So they have DNA, they have
Speaker 2: in some of these murders. They still have DNA if
Speaker 2: they've kept it in evidence and if it's still viable
Speaker 2: to be able to test to see who in the
Speaker 2: heck killed these women for real. And some people were
Speaker 2: put away for these murders. I think probably because law
Speaker 2: enforcement wanted to solve some of these crimes. They wanted
Speaker 2: to a piece of public and tell them, hey, these
Speaker 2: are solved. It makes people feel a little less uneasy.
Speaker 2: But the sheer volume of murders was insane, and Sacramento
Speaker 2: has some of the highest murders in the country. To
Speaker 2: tell you the truth, and they did then and they
Speaker 2: do now. So he had to live somewhere and he
Speaker 2: had to He's not dead. He didn't get incarcerated, you know,
Speaker 2: he was still out there.
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Speaker 6: And we were talking about all of the information that
Speaker 6: led you to believe that you were looking at another
Speaker 6: serial killer, and that serial killer was Joseph DiAngelo, former
Speaker 6: Easterio rapists original nightstalker, as we found out in twenty
Speaker 6: eighteen Vasalia Ransacker. So tell us how you came to
Speaker 6: this conclusion. Tell us more about this conclusion.
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, reading the news of what was
Speaker 2: going on in detail, and I have included a lot
Speaker 2: of the detail in this book about the different murders
Speaker 2: that were occurring, but one in particular really struck me.
Speaker 2: And if I can, I'd like to read a little
Speaker 2: excerpt from this. It has to do with students. Takari
Speaker 2: her body right. It was reported that she died from
Speaker 2: a combination of strangulation and a savage beating about the face.
Speaker 2: Her nose had been smashed to a pole, her jaw
Speaker 2: had been broken in at least two places, several teeth
Speaker 2: had been knocked out. The hyoid bone at the base
Speaker 2: of her tongue had been fractured, probably by the stocking garage.
Speaker 2: She had been sexually attacked. She was the victim of
Speaker 2: one of the most god awful assaults I've ever investigated,
Speaker 2: said Chief's Deputy Coroner, Captain E. R. Presley. And then
Speaker 2: what would I flash forward to. This was in nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy seventy one, flashboard in nineteen eighty six, and if
Speaker 2: you read the murder of Janelle Cruise in Irvine, California,
Speaker 2: it was also brudal. I said, it sound so much
Speaker 2: like the murder of Miss Takari that one could place
Speaker 2: the story one over the other as if to trace them.
Speaker 2: They're connected by the same perpetrator, although it was sixteen
Speaker 2: years later. Janelle was beaten in the face and the head.
Speaker 2: The perpetrator demolished her face, knocked out her teeth, which
Speaker 2: were found around the room, and in Miss Cruise, she
Speaker 2: was so brutally murdered the dental records had to be
Speaker 2: obtained in order to make sure it was in fact now.
Speaker 2: And the difference is just in location in the murders,
Speaker 2: but the way that he was so brutal. The absolute
Speaker 2: horror of his rage was the same.
Speaker 6: What else I mean, obviously when you see that that
Speaker 6: it's the same clime, you have the same mo But
Speaker 6: what are the things that you see as a progression,
Speaker 6: Like we mentioned that at first he was he obviously
Speaker 6: famously reached out to the Sacramento b and to the law,
Speaker 6: to law enforcement. But then after it's less known because
Speaker 6: we have this movie where that goes on, but less
Speaker 6: known about the punting and the significance of the anniversaries
Speaker 6: of something happening and him calling and tormenting, which is
Speaker 6: far more horrifying than contacting the media or law enforcement.
Speaker 6: Certainly right and in.
Speaker 2: Our case is where he called the families that I
Speaker 2: point out in the book, where he would call the
Speaker 2: victim's family the girl would be missing, and he would
Speaker 2: call them every week on a Wednesday, for example. He
Speaker 2: called every single week and a for her, just taunting
Speaker 2: the victims and the victims' families over and over again.
Speaker 2: That was one of the ways he got his kicks.
Speaker 2: I mean, this guy used to call people on the
Speaker 2: phone and try to get together with them to you know,
Speaker 2: Pat was missing. There was an ad in the paper
Speaker 2: he found a way to hassle people on the phone
Speaker 2: over and over again and in many many different ways,
Speaker 2: and that never stopped, never stopped. He was still doing
Speaker 2: stuff by the time they arrested him. He wore a wig.
Speaker 2: There's a picture of and with a wig on where
Speaker 2: he was on somebody's porch. I mean, there's there's just
Speaker 2: so many things that he did that were so much
Speaker 2: the same. And the conversation that Brian Hartner had with
Speaker 2: him that day at Lake Berry as he heard his
Speaker 2: voice and a lot of people had heard his voice,
Speaker 2: I know that some of the things he said to
Speaker 2: Brian that day he repeated over and over. The things
Speaker 2: that he took and didn't take for years were the same.
Speaker 2: He's you know, different other things like miscellaneous jewelry, one earring,
Speaker 2: it was the same. So some of the things he
Speaker 2: took from the cab today that he killed paulse time.
Speaker 2: You know, he was just very meticulous and he had
Speaker 2: to have kept some sort of record to keep everyone
Speaker 2: straight and call them up on the anniversary of somebody's
Speaker 2: death or somebody's rape. He did this over and over again.
Speaker 6: You realized that as a police officer he knew quite
Speaker 6: a bit about jurisdictions and how the police worked and
Speaker 6: how the failings of police because he was a police
Speaker 6: officer for a few years. How much did that How
Speaker 6: much was that a light bulb on top of your
Speaker 6: head when you realized that that made a lot of
Speaker 6: sense and answered a lot of questions.
Speaker 2: Well, a lot of people thought that he was military
Speaker 2: and or a police person. Then the ballistics involved way
Speaker 2: early on would have told anyone that he was for cops.
Speaker 2: For the access to the ammunition that they used only them,
Speaker 2: They knew early on that it had to be somebody
Speaker 2: who had access to that. So there were just many
Speaker 2: clues that tell you that he had particular types of
Speaker 2: ammunition liked, or different things that he used. He never
Speaker 2: used the forty four, He very rarely used anything larger
Speaker 2: than at thirty eight, So just different guns that he
Speaker 2: stole over time in different things. He was a very
Speaker 2: good cat burglar. He was probably one of the most
Speaker 2: brilliant serial killers I've ever tracked.
Speaker 6: Yeah, but it would be particularly helpful to be a
Speaker 6: police officer and also intimate, Like you say, he's in
Speaker 6: these small towns. They're very small, like Auburn and Glass Valley,
Speaker 6: so he has the opportunity to be able to know
Speaker 6: people or know people related to these people that end
Speaker 6: up being his victims. But being a police officers particularly helpful,
Speaker 6: wasn't it.
Speaker 2: And you're right he had connections to people in Drafts,
Speaker 2: Valley and Newcastle, in different places that are small towns
Speaker 2: all around the Auburn area where he was as a teenager.
Speaker 2: He ended up back there as an adult as a
Speaker 2: police officer there some of the murders I think personally
Speaker 2: that he did to keep Nick Willet busy in Auburn.
Speaker 2: He had a bone to pick with him because he
Speaker 2: was fired from the Auburn Police Department. And you find
Speaker 2: murders that are connected, you find media people that are
Speaker 2: from that area, who came from San Francisco who ended
Speaker 2: up owning the Foster Herald for example. There's just some
Speaker 2: interesting stories and connections to all of these people. And
Speaker 2: if he if he wanted to kill, Let's say he
Speaker 2: killed Paul Stein because he was pissed off at something
Speaker 2: in the Sign family, or he killed Mary Lloyd in
Speaker 2: Auburn because she was pissed off at her brother's bost
Speaker 2: Harold and had come from San Francisco. Because so many connections,
Speaker 2: because this man was out there and he was drawing
Speaker 2: a little map of what he wanted to do. And
Speaker 2: he really did write down things, and he did have lists.
Speaker 2: And if you don't list, to kill you sometimes he
Speaker 2: would do it for happy with some.
Speaker 6: Book.
Speaker 2: There's a couple of people where it was five years here,
Speaker 2: it's a news article. Show what happened to these people?
Speaker 2: Were they in the news prior to these murders? And
Speaker 2: most often ninety nine percent of the time they were
Speaker 2: in the news. That one of the murders of games,
Speaker 2: kimball her Son was in the news constantly as a
Speaker 2: Roseville Police Department official, and somehow his wife get his
Speaker 2: mother gets killed. So it's interesting the way he drew
Speaker 2: his connections to play his games, and that was one
Speaker 2: of the things he did that was also consistent. He
Speaker 2: played games as the Zodiac, he played games as the
Speaker 2: Golden State killer, as the East Ay racist. This love
Speaker 2: to screw with them.
Speaker 6: You write about a what almost can be considered a
Speaker 6: close call when you mentioned the police chief that he
Speaker 6: was mad at because he was fired. Tell us what
Speaker 6: you write about in the book about what almost happened
Speaker 6: in this regard with the police chief. And his anger
Speaker 6: towards him well.
Speaker 2: As the story most people know about D'Angelo was that
Speaker 2: when he was a officer, he was arrested in the
Speaker 2: attacks zones of the Easteri rapist in nineteen seventy nine
Speaker 2: and he ended up being ultimately fired from being a
Speaker 2: police officer at that point, but he was never investigated
Speaker 2: in depth at that point. They just kind of let
Speaker 2: him wander off. He paid his fines and whatever needed
Speaker 2: to be done. But he went after Nick Willock a
Speaker 2: little bit. He threatened him really, and then he showed
Speaker 2: up a few months later, is the story. That's what
Speaker 2: was told, that he stopped him and actually ended up
Speaker 2: outside of his house. So there was definitely bad blood
Speaker 2: between Nick Willock and Joseph DiAngelo. Joseph DiAngelo had actually
Speaker 2: even said Nick Willicks doesn't like me, and he didn't.
Speaker 2: There'd been quite a few complaints about how he got
Speaker 2: too close to people when he was working and the
Speaker 2: different things that they didn't like about how he handled things.
Speaker 2: So there was bad blood between them. And interestingly enough,
Speaker 2: there were bodies that showed up around the Auburn. Now, yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's still some in Forest Hill. So he
Speaker 2: dunked the body across the street practically from the Auburn
Speaker 2: PD and he kept him, kept him busy. So there's
Speaker 2: stories about that what went on in Auburn after the
Speaker 2: Zodiac left in nineteen sixty nine in the Bay area.
Speaker 6: I found it very interesting when you talk about and
Speaker 6: their sband talked about early on about abuse to dogs,
Speaker 6: and then you have this. You write about that a
Speaker 6: homemade dog repellent would be garlic onions, a couple other things,
Speaker 6: soap one of those things. But you reprote that there
Speaker 6: was people that said the Zodiac and the eastereoapists both
Speaker 6: had the smell of rotting onions.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 6: I thought that was interesting. How far your investigation anyway?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I also speculate I kind of went through
Speaker 2: the Palstein murderer that some people thought that he had
Speaker 2: stayed in the park, or if he didn't stay in
Speaker 2: the park. I talk about how he left the park,
Speaker 2: but when in the presidio, when he you know, he
Speaker 2: spent He wrote a letter after the fact about what
Speaker 2: he had done and he said, all you had to
Speaker 2: do was sit and wait for me to come out.
Speaker 2: And so I talked about both scenarios. Whether he sat
Speaker 2: in the park and what he might have done to
Speaker 2: avoid detection, which is to have lots of dog recount
Speaker 2: and hide in a particular place. He really did have
Speaker 2: some of the same mo as the later Easy rapist
Speaker 2: when it came to watching people scurry around and try
Speaker 2: to figure out what happened and where he went.
Speaker 6: So, and you say, what's really important too, because this
Speaker 6: is somewhat rare, is that they both targeted couples in there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they did. DeAngelo admitted to killing the Maggiori couple,
Speaker 2: Brian and Katie Maggiori in nineteen seventy eight, and what
Speaker 2: he basically did was kill them in cold blood. He
Speaker 2: ran after him and shot them. Both of them died
Speaker 2: that night, and I think he stocked them ahead of time.
Speaker 2: There's connections to Katie having been at Presnell State. Sharon
Speaker 2: Huddle was at Presne State. Look, you can see the
Speaker 2: connections that he could have found someone in one place
Speaker 2: and know them that they weren't in his ase when
Speaker 2: they ended up in Sacramento. So he tracked people. He
Speaker 2: was a great stalker. He just was meticulous and he
Speaker 2: never gave up. If he wanted to go after you,
Speaker 2: he would go after you if you want. If he
Speaker 2: wanted you to be a victim, he would be his victim.
Speaker 2: And Palstein, for example, I think that he wanted to
Speaker 2: kill Paul Stein. It just happened to be that he
Speaker 2: was a cabby made it easy for him to do it.
Speaker 2: And I think that even if Paul wasn't seeing it,
Speaker 2: wasn't out there. He was supposed to have been hired
Speaker 2: by the San Francisco newspaper and was about to change jobs.
Speaker 2: I think that if he had not been in the
Speaker 2: cab that night, that D'Angelo would attract him and killed
Speaker 2: them anyway, somewhere else, I said, di'angelo, but that means
Speaker 2: equals Zodiac. I think he was stalking them. I think
Speaker 2: he was going to kill him.
Speaker 6: Is the the idea of craving for celebrity makes sense
Speaker 6: to you in terms of the zodiac. Craved that celebrity
Speaker 6: and then said I'm going away. But this what he
Speaker 6: morphed into again created that notoriety.
Speaker 2: Yeah, of course, yeah, he wanted to be known, and
Speaker 2: he was, like I said, he found different ways to
Speaker 2: satisfy his being able to be known. I mean his
Speaker 2: sheer volume of attacks no matter where he was, if
Speaker 2: he was the Vicelia around soacker if he was the
Speaker 2: EASTERI rapist, no matter what he was doing, he you know,
Speaker 2: the sheer volume of it was how he terrorized everyone
Speaker 2: so so much, and that was what would have got
Speaker 2: off on the power and control there.
Speaker 6: Many people have looked at this geographical profile, geographical profiling,
Speaker 6: and you write that there was three places. Three main
Speaker 6: places that connected Zodiac and the Golden State Killer Joseph'angelo
Speaker 6: was Tulaire County, Sacramento and Garden Grove.
Speaker 2: Right, there were so many murders of women in Garden Grove,
Speaker 2: which is where his brother lived. There were so many
Speaker 2: murders really in the Auburn Air up and down Highway
Speaker 2: eighty and then also Sacramento County. So it's really close geographically,
Speaker 2: all of it is. So it was not a far
Speaker 2: stretch to look at what happened when Zodiac left and
Speaker 2: where he could have gone, what he was doing. It's
Speaker 2: really not.
Speaker 6: You Also you talk about the similarities in again obviously geography,
Speaker 6: but also VMO as well in terms of these murders,
Speaker 6: But tell us about the ones that you think are
Speaker 6: the most I guess controversial that you've uncovered in this
Speaker 6: and you offer the proof that they're one and the same.
Speaker 2: Well, one of the things is that his own base
Speaker 2: really was around Sacramento for a very very long time,
Speaker 2: for lifetime. And what happened is that he was able
Speaker 2: to He loved to drive. He originally wanted to be
Speaker 2: a California arbitral and that didn't work out. So it's
Speaker 2: probably smarter for him to be just police officers so
Speaker 2: that he could come and go and not be tracked
Speaker 2: quite as easily. But he was, you know, in and
Speaker 2: around the areas, up and down the highways. He knew
Speaker 2: the areas very intimately, and he just repeated what he
Speaker 2: was doing over and over. But he changed it up
Speaker 2: enough and threw enough confusion into the marriative always that
Speaker 2: somehow they seem to not connect it. What's what was
Speaker 2: really fascinating to me was reading about the crimes, the
Speaker 2: murders and Sacramento and the discussions that law enforcement had
Speaker 2: amongst themselves about maybe the by sailor manseckers of easter
Speaker 2: A rapists. Nope, they let that go. Maybe the zodiac is,
Speaker 2: you know, here in Sacramento and he's killing these women
Speaker 2: in Sacramento. No, never mind, So and then I'm not
Speaker 2: being critical really of law enforcement. I know they had
Speaker 2: their hands full, incredibly full with all the murders, but
Speaker 2: you know, it's sort of like, why didn't anyone pursue
Speaker 2: it more? Why was this guy allowed? If he killed
Speaker 2: five people the very first year, and he tried to
Speaker 2: kill seven that we know of, then he killed in
Speaker 2: fifty years, he killed five a year. It's over two
Speaker 2: hundred people. And that's the worst serial killer I've ever
Speaker 2: heard of. But it shows in the records. You know,
Speaker 2: there's so many primes out there that were committed that
Speaker 2: they do have DNA. They should have DNA, they should
Speaker 2: be testing them, and as far as I can tell,
Speaker 2: some of the jurisdictions are, but they are very silent
Speaker 2: and they're not telling anyone anything about what they're doing.
Speaker 2: And my opinion is they might want to wait until
Speaker 2: there's nobody to prosecute anymore.
Speaker 6: You say that there was some use of this this
Speaker 6: breakthrough genealgical advance of DNA advance used for the DiAngelo conviction,
Speaker 6: and you say that since twenty eighteen it has been
Speaker 6: used or since that time, has been used to convict.
Speaker 6: So tell us more about your idea about how the
Speaker 6: Zodiac may be linked to DeAngelo overall through this forensic technology.
Speaker 2: Well, like I said, with the Zodiac, there's really not
Speaker 2: anything that I'm aware of, and I'm sure that there
Speaker 2: are people who have studied these cases for twenty thirty
Speaker 2: forty years who may know of some sort of DNA
Speaker 2: or something that could be tested for the Zodiac personally, don't.
Speaker 2: I don't know that because the criminalist that I listened
Speaker 2: to said that there really isn't any usable DNA. They
Speaker 2: don't see that there will be any. People talk about
Speaker 2: a mustache here that was supposedly stuck underneath the stamp
Speaker 2: and things like that, and you never hear of anything
Speaker 2: being tested. Now it's twenty twenty one, there's there everybody's silence.
Speaker 2: The FBI will say no, it's not him, but they
Speaker 2: don't tell you who they think it is. I've talked
Speaker 2: to other jurisdictions who say, well, you're not You know
Speaker 2: when who's thought that this? And of course, you know,
Speaker 2: anybody who is from California knows what went on, has
Speaker 2: to have thought and they said it in the nineteen
Speaker 2: seventies in the newspaper, maybe it's Zodiac who did this,
Speaker 2: But they just didn't seem to pursue it and didn't
Speaker 2: come to resolve on so many cases. There's so many
Speaker 2: cold cases. I can't even begin to tell you.
Speaker 6: Right, So, if there isn't any DNA from Zodiac, then
Speaker 6: what how do you expect anybody to check what you've done?
Speaker 6: I mean, you've done that again. This is an exhaustive
Speaker 6: investigation that you've done. But what do you expect from this?
Speaker 2: They can see, well, what they can see from it
Speaker 2: is the patterns, the circumstantial evidence is there the same
Speaker 2: you know, types of attacks and what occurred. We can
Speaker 2: compare it and completely compare it to what D'Angelo did.
Speaker 2: We can track him and see where he was. Plenty
Speaker 2: was someplace that he was available. And that's the other thing.
Speaker 2: You see that he was available. You can track him
Speaker 2: and see where he was and what he could have done.
Speaker 2: There's even one one disappearance and murder and the rape
Speaker 2: all the same night in September, the September attack, and
Speaker 2: we can see that there's an attack and I believe
Speaker 2: it was stucked in and he raped somebody and then
Speaker 2: he drives up the road a few hours a couple
Speaker 2: hours actually wasn't in that far, probably that hour and
Speaker 2: a half, and then somebody's abducted and murdered. So it's
Speaker 2: not unusual for something like that to happen. He did that,
Speaker 2: as the story rapists, he would attack somebody and then
Speaker 2: a few hours later attack somebody else. One wasn't enough
Speaker 2: for that night. And so there's so many things that
Speaker 2: are circumstantial that can be seen that you know, you
Speaker 2: can see that he was available, you can track where
Speaker 2: he was when he was doing something, what area he
Speaker 2: was in. You can see it. And monfersman can see it.
Speaker 2: They know it. They have to have him on their
Speaker 2: suspect list for the Zodiac. They have to, and some
Speaker 2: of them that I've talked to do so it's just
Speaker 2: that nothing is forthcoming. Do you want of people don't
Speaker 2: want to see why? I just think that they don't
Speaker 2: want the negative attention. It's huge. I mean, can you
Speaker 2: imagine leaving a guy out there to kill five people
Speaker 2: a year or more for fifty years? Yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: why would you want to say, oh, he was a
Speaker 2: previous police officer and he killed all these people and
Speaker 2: he got away with it.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I guess it's enough right now. The shame that's
Speaker 6: been brought to the profession from him as it is,
Speaker 6: and he wouldn't be the first serial killer that ended
Speaker 6: up being a former police officer in this putting this
Speaker 6: incredible investigation in an analysis together, do you expect that
Speaker 6: some police haven't put everything together like you have and
Speaker 6: have the ability to put things together so it's readable
Speaker 6: like yourself? And do you expect some police to take
Speaker 6: a look at what you've done?
Speaker 2: And yes, I do expect them to take a look
Speaker 2: at what I've done. Definitely, they're all going to get
Speaker 2: a copy of this MAC. I have an appoint with
Speaker 2: one tomorrow in person to deliver it. But what I
Speaker 2: expect is is that they will be able to see
Speaker 2: it if they haven't already. But one of the problems
Speaker 2: is is that one is the time involved. I'm able
Speaker 2: to investigate twenty four to seven if I want to.
Speaker 2: They don't have the resources. They don't have the manpower,
Speaker 2: the woman power whatever to be able to, you know,
Speaker 2: and investigate in depth like this. I mean, when you
Speaker 2: sit for hours and hours and hours and look at
Speaker 2: what happened. They don't have the luxury of that. Typically.
Speaker 2: I know that there's a couple of private investigators out
Speaker 2: there that do. And I think that eventually the story
Speaker 2: will be told and it will be connected, and there
Speaker 2: are people that know parts of the story that they
Speaker 2: don't know the whole story, and so I'm trying to
Speaker 2: make this cohesive and understood, and hopefully that that's what
Speaker 2: I've done.
Speaker 6: I think you really have. I want to thank you
Speaker 6: so much and for coming on and talking about your
Speaker 6: new book, very explosive book, Serial Slaughter, Zodiac Killer. Thank
Speaker 6: you so much. And is there for people that might
Speaker 6: want to take a look at this work? Do you
Speaker 6: have a Facebook page, website, anything where people might find
Speaker 6: out more about this.
Speaker 2: Yes, there's a WordPress site, there's a Facebook page, there's Twitter.
Speaker 2: It's on Amazon and Barnes and Noble. And it was
Speaker 2: interesting the first day of published that I had it
Speaker 2: listed for free and quite a few people downloaded it.
Speaker 2: So hopefully they have an opinion about it, and that's
Speaker 2: really what this is about. It's sort of like getting
Speaker 2: the word out and saying, hey, what do you think?
Speaker 2: What do you think about what's been presented here? And
Speaker 2: what will we do about it? Yeah?
Speaker 6: Absolutely, thank you so much and it's been a pleasure.
Speaker 6: Thanksal Slaughter A Killer. Thank you, good Night Pleasures, bybye,