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Speaker 1: If you want to get the show early and add free,

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subscribe Star or gum Road, and the links are all

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there at the peakinyonasshow dot com. I just want to

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give thanks, continued thanks to all of you who support

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and hopefully the kind of quality that keeps you coming back.

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So I'm only able to do this because of you,

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So head on over to the Pekinyonashow dot com and

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Speaker 2: Thank you.

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Speaker 1: Want to welcome everyone back to the peking Yonas Show.

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Got a couple gentlemen hanging out with me today. Darryl Cooper,

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how are you doing there?

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Speaker 3: Doing all right?

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Speaker 2: Brother?

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Speaker 3: Always great to be with you.

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Speaker 1: Doctor field House, how are you what's up? By doing good?

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Doing good? So This came about because Thomas and one

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of Thomas's siri he mentioned at the end of an

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episode Thomas Cune and doctor field House contacts me and goes, oh,

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you should see the notes I have on Cune and Jarrel. Uh,

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Jarrel's up on Cune, so why don't we do an

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episode about him? And that was about six months ago,

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and as as things happen, we're finally doing it.

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Speaker 3: So we've got a break in the news. You know,

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this is a good time to kind of.

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Speaker 1: Like, what's funny is I just recorded with Jay Burden

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we did a review of Michael Samino's nineteen eighty five

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movie The Year of the Dragon with uh yeah. So

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it's like we don't want to talk. We don't want

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to talk about current events.

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Speaker 3: So this is why I want like a Caesar to

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show up or some kind of like dictator, just so

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that we can get back, like I want to interview

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Steve Bannon and just talk about like black magic and

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ancient occultism and stuff. I don't want to talk about

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this crap anymore, Like.

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Speaker 1: Come on, yeah, well, I want to do my hockey

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podcast so bad.

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Speaker 3: But could you see the new Natural Predator's logo.

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Speaker 2: Y yeah, yeah, please, yes, are yeah?

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Speaker 1: All right, doctor Field, how's lead us off here?

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Speaker 2: Okay?

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Speaker 4: And like we said, this has absolutely nothing to do

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with Iran, so real quick, uh, Thomas Kohon. For anybody

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who's just checking in, what's it about, It's about his

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work the structures of scientific revolutions and how it influenced

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how both scientists and non scientists and layman think about

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the concept of paradigm. He's the guy who gave us

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the term paradigm shift. So yeah, if you've done any

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kind of grad school dealing with theoretical science or theoretical

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social science, or theoretical version of any discipline that wants

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to attended to science, even though it absolutely is not,

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there's a good chance that he was the first book

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that they made you read in that grad school program,

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and famously, at least in my program and a lot

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of other ones. They don't really give you, like the

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Cliff Snows introduction as to why this guy matters and

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why his works matters. They just sort of give you

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this book, which is again very opaque because he's or

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at least fairly opay because he's writing for other academics

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and sort of like the professor sort of acts like Yoda,

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where we're going to go and do these things and

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maybe somehow we figure out how it matters, or like

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mister Miyagi, somehow if you trust him, cleaning his cars

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for him will eventually turn you into a bare knuckle fighter.

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So yeah, so real quick. Thomas Kuhn nineteen twenty two

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to nineteen ninety six. Again, he was in He was

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an academic who's primarily known as a historian of science.

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A historian of science. He went to trying to remember

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where he went to one of the Ivy leagues, and

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he studied physics. He graduated nineteen forty three. From his

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undergrad he went and got his masters and his PhD

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after that. Then he was in the scholars program. I

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have to look again at what school that was. Excuse me,

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Harvard Fellow program, which basically allows a newly minted PhD

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to go in for the two years or whatever do

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whatever research they want on whatever field they want. But

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you got to show up and teach x number of

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undergrad classes, which is a good deal, especially since you know,

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being in school just got him out of World War two,

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which is an interesting thing. I'd almost want to ask himself,

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and you know, kept him out of the post war draft,

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so more than anything, I think that was probably why

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he chose that. But he was given the task of

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doing a history of science class for non science majors.

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Some of them were undergrad historians, a lot of them

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were just guys with general liberal arts, but generally these

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were people who were not interested in going to you know,

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a regular academic Bachelor of science physics or hard science programs.

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And one of the things he found teaching these students

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that he he was the feedback he got that was

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very interesting is most people, most laymen especially, had this

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idea of just continuous linear progress in the history of science,

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though a lot of us acknowledges there are times where

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things step back, when we tend to think of those

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as dark ages, And much like Spangler, even though I

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don't think he directly cites Spangler at all, kne provides

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a conceptual model where he understands that, you know, it's

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not just continuous progress. We go through a series of

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changes in worldview what he calls paradigms, in which we

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cycle back and forth between a new framework, a new

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conception for understanding how the world works, followed by a

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series of that I'll go into a deale with of

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what he calls normal science, where we do regular incrementalist

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investigation experimentation, followed by periods in which we get more

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and more data that doesn't align with that previous model

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conceptual model. Followed by a crisis in which, you know,

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we're trying to figure out, hey, why don't these models work?

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What are the competing models? Followed by a new paradigm

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as it were, excuse me, So, yeah, those are the

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biggest things. His book Structures of Scientific Revolutions, published in

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nineteen sixty two, there's three or four different further editions,

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all the editions published in his lifetime. He famously included

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brand new forwards introductions to each of the book on

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top of the previous introductions are there, partly because he

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was very unhappy the way people interpreted his work. The

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example is his work is seen as sort of foundational

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to postmodernism, to the idea that there isn't actually a truth,

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there's just competing frameworks, different conceptual models. And he made

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it very clear that he wasn't a Kuonian, you know.

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Famously he said, look, I'm not a Kuonian, even though

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you know that that perspective, that position was named after

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him because he said, look, yes, there are different conceptual models,

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but he understood that there is some capital T truth

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out there and that hopefully science, if we're doing it properly,

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gets closer and closer to that capital T truth, even

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though yes, we will have conceptual models there. So that's

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probably the quick and dirty summary of his work and

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why it matters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah anything, Daryl, Oh, yeah, I was. You know, I've

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always you mentioned Spangler, and when we first started talking

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about Coon a long time ago, you know, I mentioned

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that Spangler was somebody who, you know, not exactly somebody

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that you could say Kuhn's elaborating on or dialing in on,

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but that they run very well in parallel with each other.

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And if you think about Kuhn's idea of mental models,

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you know, which is how does he put it? I

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think he says the mental model is if you're putting like,

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if you're putting together a puzzle, it's the it's the

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picture on the box, right. This is the analogy that

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he uses. And as you're starting to put together this puzzle,

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as you pull the pieces out one by one, you know,

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Spengler sort of had he had this this concept of

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the er idea, which is it's this you know, you

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can you can give it linguistic definition, but really it's

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much more of a symbolic, conceptual, nonverbal principle that exists

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within the soul of a civilization and all of the

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people in a civilization. That is it all the manifestations

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of their various creative powers, right, and and everything that

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they that they do create. It sort of drives them

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in the direction of of bringing this uh, this or

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idea into the world, you know, toward its apotheosis basically.

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And so an example of that, uh, he would say,

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you know, if you think about the Greeks for example,

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you know, the Greeks, he points out Spangler would point

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out that, you know, you have the Greek focus on

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sculpture as an art form and much less on painting.

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Obviously they did paint, but uh, you know, they didn't

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have deep perspectible painting. It was much more on the

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solid sculpture with an emphasis on proportion. That fits very

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well into the emphasis that they gave to music. You know,

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that was so central not only to their sort of

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their their taste and art and everything, but their basic

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understanding of religion in the world because and specifically string music.

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And that's because you know, proportion, the relation between proportion

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and tone is like, you know, very obvious in string music.

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Even their mathematics, uh, you know, until the era of

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like major cultural exchange really picked up, they lacked as

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zero in their mathematics. They understood fractions like really in

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terms of parts of physical whole objects. They only as

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far as exponents, they only had to the second in

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the third power because those were things that related to

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calculating area and calculating volume, and so everything was very

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much uh, this idea of the solid body that is

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in the foreground, you know. He talks Spangler talks about

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how there, how their their religious temples were like these

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quat kind of solid units with very little interior space

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relative to the size of the structure itself in comparison

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to say, like the cavernous mosques or cathedrals that you

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know would be built in other civilizations. And so, you know,

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Spangler makes a point that like all of these things

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are manifestations of this same sort of like this vaguely

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felt like core idea that exists in the Greek soul,

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and everything that they're doing is sort of working that out,

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and that's sort of you know, you could you could

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think of that in similar terms to Kuhn's analogy, where

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you know, they have this even if they can't quite

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see it visually, like it's they still have this picture

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on the cover of the puzzle box. That's sort of

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it's in there, and everything they're doing is trying to

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take a piece of a puzzle and like create this

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picture out of it. And you know, that's one of

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the great things about Kuon is obviously he's a physicist

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and he's very focused on the history of science, but

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I really think his ideas are very, very widely applicable

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to other fields as well.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, very much so. And that's one of the things

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we talked about in the past is much like Spangler,

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like he said, he's somebody like I said, he he

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does not embrace the sort of knee jerk view of

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linear progress that we just inherently have in the West,

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at least until we identify it and we think about it.

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And much like Spangler, one of the things that he

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does very much is he's he provides a framework for

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looking at your own models how we see the world,

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why we see it that way, which is a necessary

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prerequisite before you can evaluate or discard an obsolete model.

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One of the things there's a saying about mental models

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is look, every model is wrong. Some are useful. And

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when they say every model is wrong, they're saying as

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if just like a bully in logic search, where you

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have you know A and B and C, but you

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have all those condigent contingent requirements, which means if you

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have any one of those brilliant contingent requirements, you know

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suddenly that thing is not correct right, not in the

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perfectly logical sense, but that think it might still work

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as a heuristic for how we intuitively understand the world

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or some phenomenon, and moving on from that. One of

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the things that John Boyd, because a lot of why

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I got into this is not just because I was

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made to read Koon like everybody else, but John Boyd,

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the strategist, the Air Force officer.

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Speaker 3: He actually cites.

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Speaker 4: Boyd is one of the sort of starting points when

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he tried to create an integral or integral conception for

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warfare and strategy, and one of the points that's brought

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out of Boyd's work is, Yeah, every model is wrong

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in the sense it's not perfectly accurate and all the

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contingent things, but probably a more accurate way to say

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is every model is incomplete, and once you understand something

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as being incomplete, it gives you the permission to sort

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of evaluate why we think that way without necess rarely

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painting somebody into a conceptual corner where they're going to

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reflexively fight back against any person who challenges them. If

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that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's one of the reasons that that that ideology.

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While it's very often incredibly helpful and often necessary to

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map the world around us and understand what's going on,

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it also has a tendency over time for people to

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pull people into it and sort of calcify and solidify

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their thinking so that you know, it's like when you

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when you talk to a lot of people right left, center,

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doesn't matter. They could be our guy. A lot of

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our guys are like this doesn't matter. Like this is

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unless you really really take steps to get around this.

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The tendency tends to be you start listening to somebody

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and you realize that they're not actually really thinking and

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telling you what they think, right Now what they're doing

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is they're describing their mental model to you, like they're

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describing that, you know, whether it's ideological or just whatever

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the the field might be. Is they're just sort of

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reciting that to you and defending it against anything you

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might say. And you know, it's it's much less of

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a sort of of of a sort of iterative model

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of like continuous improvement, right, which is what you need

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for any any activity that doesn't have like a like

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a like a total end state, you know, like a

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total wind condition where the game's over, like you know,

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something where the game really doesn't end and things are

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changing all the time, and so your job is to

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take in new information, fit that into your mental model,

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adjust accordingly, and do that in ways that ideally, like

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if you have a learning system, whether it's in an

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individual or a learning organization, a military, or a society

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as a whole. You know, the idea, the ideal situation

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is new information comes in and you have a system

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to uptake that, distribute it, make adjustments kind of on

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the fly. In reality, though, what ends up happening is

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there are vested interests in the model that the paradigm

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that currently exists and again this is Kon talks about

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it in the scientific fields, but it's true everywhere. And

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so there's resistance to new information and there's resistance to

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making those changes. And what ends up happening is, you know,

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the the like the data that doesn't fit into your model, right,

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the data that your model can't explain, starts to accumulate

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and accumulate, accumulate, and it builds up pressure until finally

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it spills out in a disorderly way because you just

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you failed to learn over time, right, the like just

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as I'm talking right now, maybe because of the history

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podcast I've been I've just been putting out. I think

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about like the armies in World War One. You know,

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we went like a whole century where there was radical

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technological change, you know, heavy artillery, machine guns, like barbed wire,

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all these things that became so important on the battlefield

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in World War One, but there hadn't been like a

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lot of these sort of smaller brushfire wars and just

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like enough like large scale open conflicts that people could

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learn from and watch and observe. And so when it

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finally came, there were all of these unlearned lessons that

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had to be learned, you know, between August and December

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nineteen fourteen to everybody's you know, extreme detriment, and so

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you know, that's that's something again. It's one of the

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reasons that kun is so interesting to me is that

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it really is something that you can apply at almost

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any level, at any scale, you know, from the individual

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on up to a whole society and organizations you know,

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in between those.

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Speaker 1: That was something I was going to bring up, was

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talking about the nineteenth century. You look at any war

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that would have been fought in their early nineteenth century

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of you know, a single shot rifle, people still using

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black powder, and then one hundred years later you're watching

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planes fly overhead and people are dropping you know, explosives.

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Speaker 2: Out of it.

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Speaker 1: You fast forward thirty years, you're incinerating entire towns in Japan.

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So is it that if Kuhn wrote this in nineteen

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sixty two, he's seeing it in the late fifties. It

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did it just take Did it take that drastic a

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scientific change, like seemingly overnight, but only in decades to

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have someone come to this conclusion. I'm sure there were

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proto coons in the past, but it seems like that

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kind of scientific innovation would just give everyone pause, anyone

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who was thinking about these things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, part of what he talks about is

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just the fact that we very often can't we don't

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remember just how much scientific progress, both in terms of

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applied science but in theoretical sciences, happened from you know,

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the last couple decades of the eighteenth century up until

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the first couple decades of the twentieth century, you know,

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into the nineteen sixties. The field of electricity, just studying

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electricity as a sub field of physics, you know, was

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only beginning in the late eighteenth century, people like Benjamin

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Franklin proving that, you know, lightning is a form of electricity,

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which I'm still not sure how he did that without

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shocking himself to death, but he One of the things

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Koon sees is how we had competing fields of understanding

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different aspects of physics, but electricity in particular, And he

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talks about part of the issue is what's called incommensurability,

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and one of the issues when you have competing paradigms

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like we did for much of the nineteenth century, we

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had different conceptual worldviews that conflicted with each other in

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terms of describing physics. Very often these different frameworks they

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can't really talk to each other. Like Daryl said, people

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become resistant. Is part of the problem is the core

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terms that we use can mean radically different things in

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one framework versus another. So like one of the examples

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Kon gives is the old Aristotelian model of the universe

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or solar system, where you know, everything rotates around the

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Earth versus the Taumaic idea where you know, the Earth

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rotates around the Sun. One of the points he brings

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up is just the term of what the word earth

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meant in the old Aristotelian terms, by definition could not

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rotate around the Sun because it was immovable.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 4: It's just like when you see people actually do the

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models of you know, the biblical conception of the solar system,

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and it's like they don't see the Earth as a ball,

356
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you know, usually it's a flat, you know, thing sitting

357
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in the ether, you know, in which you know, everything

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not just rotates around it, but just the dimensions of

359
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the physical you know, perspective of Earth is basically either

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unknowable or it's meant to be beyond our ability to

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understand it. So big, So yeah, intercommensurability. Terms may not

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mean each other mean the same thing from one group

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to another, which means a lot of times, certain paradigms,

364
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certain world views can't be reconciled directly with each other.

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And one of the points I brought up just in

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discussions in the last week I know with you, Pete,

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was the term politics. Right, that word means slightly different

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things in the English speaking framework versus what it means

369
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in the German you know, the German language German language framework.

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So some of the concepts like when clause it says,

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you know, war's the extension of politics by other means,

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and in English speaking American would say automatically, that's bullshit,

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because war is a primal force. So one of the

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things that needs to be understood is again politics means

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something radically different in German social science theory, where it

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means something more like the act of governance itself. And

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I'm rambling here, but those are some of the issues

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that feel a huge part of Kuhn's book is the

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increments ability meaning people have two different conflicting worldview. It's

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not just that they can't talk through their issues, but

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the words mean radically different things, So essentially they're talking

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past each other every step along the way.

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Speaker 3: Does any talk about I can't remember if this was

384
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from Kun himself or if it's just something that I

385
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thought of while reading it or read when I was

386
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reading about him specifically. With like the Ttolemaic versus Copernican

387
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astronomical mental models or paradigms rather as data starts to accumulate,

388
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that kind of lets people know there's something wrong with

389
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the Telemaic model, like there's some problem here because we

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can't account for all of these things that were beginning

391
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to be able to measure and that we're that we're

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seeing there's going to be like a quite a period

393
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of time where first you just because you have that

394
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accumulation of data that doesn't fit, you don't have a

395
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better model to replace the old one with. And then

396
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even once you do, like when like there was a

397
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period of time after the Copernican model was sort of

398
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it was out there for everybody that the Toolemaic model

399
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was still able to actually help people navigate more accurately

400
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for quite some time than the Copernican model, like a

401
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,359
lot of different things that it's still explained better because

402
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the Copernican model wasn't fleshed out yet, and so that's

403
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like a big part of the resistance to change as well,

404
00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:47,960
Like you really do have to you see this, you know,

405
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to come back to the military aspect. I mean, you know,

406
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there's there's the saying that you know you always was

407
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that you're always fighting the last war, right or you

408
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learn and you learn the wrong lessons from the last warrant.

409
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It's because you know, you have this theory about how

410
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things have changed and everything's different now, and you know

411
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you're going to see that air power, drones or whatever

412
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it is has just changed everything. But the people you

413
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have to sell that idea to are the ones who

414
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fought and won the last war, and they have this

415
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this you know, this this very powerful experience and a

416
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vast amount of data that they feel bolsters their perspective

417
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and makes it very difficult for you to climb that hill.

418
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You know. One of the things that happens is, uh

419
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is to sort of expand a little bit on my

420
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previous point about about learning and the centrality of that.

421
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You know, in order to avoid like a catastrophic disorderly

422
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update of your operating system, you know, went sort of

423
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due to a an external force that that that that

424
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pushes you into it. One of the things that can

425
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that can derail that is, uh, I guess what we

426
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would call hubris, or just being sufficiently ahead or sufficiently

427
00:26:05,559 --> 00:26:11,480
insulated from the consequences of your actions and decisions that learning.

428
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,880
You know, like those consequences. Another way of thinking about

429
00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,960
that is, you know, that's feedback that should be going

430
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,039
into your system and updating your system. But if you're

431
00:26:22,039 --> 00:26:26,880
sufficiently insulated from that feedback, you know, it can lead

432
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to a kind of arrogance that totally derails that. And

433
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,319
the perfect example of that is what we're looking at

434
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,680
in Iran right now. Right we've had four years of

435
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:41,640
watching what was going on in Ukraine with very very

436
00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,839
intelligent and dedicated people at the Pentagon. I promise you,

437
00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:48,599
like for every more on ex General you see on

438
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:52,519
Fox News, there are one hundred oh fives at the

439
00:26:52,559 --> 00:26:55,920
Pentagon who are shit hot, you know, and are very

440
00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:58,680
squared away and they're studying this stuff, thinking about it

441
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very deeply. And yet those guys have to have a

442
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:06,680
way to get what they're finding and the lessons that

443
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:09,759
they're learning up to the political level. When you think

444
00:27:09,799 --> 00:27:16,240
about the obstacles that that you know, that they face

445
00:27:16,319 --> 00:27:20,279
in this particular instance where they're watching what's happening in Ukraine,

446
00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:24,240
they see how things have changed, and you need to

447
00:27:24,279 --> 00:27:27,519
inform the political decision makers, the people at the top

448
00:27:28,559 --> 00:27:32,920
that this this sort of way of preparing for in

449
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:37,920
waging war that we've built our entire military around. You know,

450
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,400
these gigantic, expensive systems that can do all of these

451
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,240
different diverse you know, just weapons system and platforms that

452
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,160
you know, can can perform any mission, all these things

453
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,680
from that F thirty five to the aircraft carrier, and

454
00:27:51,799 --> 00:27:55,480
you know, these these hyper expensive, high maintenance, super high

455
00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:59,799
skill requirements not only on the on the performance side,

456
00:27:59,799 --> 00:28:02,559
but on the development and the maintenance side. You know,

457
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:04,880
all of these like complex inputs that have to go

458
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,720
into keep this big machine running. You can go and say, hey,

459
00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:11,319
you know, we're watching in Russia right now, Like guys

460
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,759
aren't even using tanks anymore, Like all of these like

461
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,359
super fancy like Gen five fighters and all these things. Yeah,

462
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,440
they're really not They're really not that important over there.

463
00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:25,799
We're watching, you know, and trying to get that up

464
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:29,680
past the obstacle of the entrenched interests in the current system,

465
00:28:29,839 --> 00:28:33,160
you know that are benefiting from the current model is

466
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:38,119
extremely difficult, and it's really really difficult when we've been

467
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,960
in a situation where you know, we could fight and

468
00:28:42,039 --> 00:28:45,200
lose two wars at the same time in Afghanistan in Iraq,

469
00:28:45,279 --> 00:28:48,640
and you know, if you didn't have an internet connection

470
00:28:48,759 --> 00:28:51,680
or a television, you could very plausibly not even know

471
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:54,359
we're at war. You know, there's very very very little

472
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:58,000
direct consequence that sort of stimulates that learning process.

473
00:29:01,759 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 4: I was going to say before I know Pete's about

474
00:29:04,039 --> 00:29:08,079
to say something is I said Aristotelian and Talemaic, and

475
00:29:08,079 --> 00:29:13,240
you're right, it's Talemaic and Copernican. But yeah, I mean,

476
00:29:13,279 --> 00:29:15,799
we could say this is an example of incremensibility where

477
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:17,920
people are talking past each other. But I think the

478
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,440
bigger issue is, like you said, it's an intentional cutting

479
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:25,519
off of feedback. I know, one of the things you

480
00:29:25,559 --> 00:29:27,160
and I have talked about, and other people like Bill

481
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,599
Bueper have talked about, is a lot of people who

482
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,240
have a background in things like strategy and you know,

483
00:29:33,599 --> 00:29:36,680
anti aircraft system in the stuff, have not talked a

484
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,720
whole lot about Ukraine, just because there was so little

485
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:43,000
reliable information coming out at any point that it wasn't

486
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:45,799
really clear what was going on. So much of what

487
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:51,240
we knew was intentionally if not propaganda, was just bullshit,

488
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,480
to the point that it's like, the only time I

489
00:29:53,519 --> 00:29:58,079
see any documentaries with Americans talking anything about combat and Ukraine,

490
00:29:58,079 --> 00:30:01,960
it's when they developed this new supposed really impenetrable line

491
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:05,599
of defense that nobody'll ever get through. And I always

492
00:30:05,599 --> 00:30:07,240
get blocked because I said, you know what, they said

493
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,240
the same thing about the Magino line. And that's a

494
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,880
lot of it is we have a conceptual framework, at

495
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:19,119
least of what dominates the institutional military, especially the acquisition side,

496
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,440
which is concerned not just about fighting the last war,

497
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,720
but they really want to fight World War Two all

498
00:30:24,759 --> 00:30:28,799
over again with you know beautiful you know sci fi systems.

499
00:30:29,359 --> 00:30:32,400
Never mind that a lot of these systems didn't do

500
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:36,039
particularly well in Vietnam, they don't do particularly well against

501
00:30:36,039 --> 00:30:39,519
the drones and all these systems. As I've talked about,

502
00:30:39,559 --> 00:30:42,079
just the issues within doing invasion of a major country,

503
00:30:42,119 --> 00:30:44,160
you know, take a long time to get someplace, because

504
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:46,559
we now build tanks that are so big that they

505
00:30:46,559 --> 00:30:49,880
can't be transported down normal roads without shutting off some

506
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:53,119
lanes of traffic. So yeah, it's all those things. It's

507
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,799
it's real easy to isolate yourself from external feedback if

508
00:30:57,839 --> 00:31:00,200
you're not going to allow it to come in. You

509
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,519
have the position of authority that's protected and people are

510
00:31:02,559 --> 00:31:05,240
going to let you get away with it. And you

511
00:31:05,279 --> 00:31:07,119
know the point that you know, like Pete said that

512
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:11,880
you know, information builds up because of disasters. It's one

513
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:14,440
of the concepts I always like is in zen Buddhism

514
00:31:14,519 --> 00:31:17,599
and Japanese zen Buddhism is called satori, and the way

515
00:31:17,599 --> 00:31:21,200
it's sometimes translated by people who do Japanese martial arts

516
00:31:21,279 --> 00:31:23,160
is it's the kind of invitment that can only be

517
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,839
attained by being punched in the face. And that's usually

518
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,960
what happens. That's when militaries reform, is you get disaster,

519
00:31:31,119 --> 00:31:33,640
a bunch of people die, and the state is destroyed,

520
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:40,440
and suddenly suddenly consequences matter. And part of why a

521
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,400
lot of my work in terms of just talking about

522
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,559
things like strategy and conceptions of how human beings are

523
00:31:45,599 --> 00:31:49,880
led is ultimately I think we have a senior leadership class,

524
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:51,880
both in uniform and out in the United States that

525
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,319
wants to isolate itself from feedback, and sooner or later

526
00:31:56,680 --> 00:32:00,000
the bill comes due. Sooner or lay or reality becomes real,

527
00:32:00,680 --> 00:32:03,160
and I don't want people like me and you and

528
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:05,480
my neighbors to be hurt when that happens.

529
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, you see a good example of that all the time.

530
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:11,960
This is like a known phenomenon in MMA where you'll

531
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:17,119
have these guys who are shredding everybody in like the

532
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,920
smaller promotions. Maybe they get into the UFC in their

533
00:32:19,960 --> 00:32:22,000
first few fights as they're working their way ups there,

534
00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:24,920
just smashing people, and you think this guy is the

535
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,720
next champion. This guy's just nobody's ever going to beat

536
00:32:27,720 --> 00:32:30,480
this guy. And then he runs into somebody who sort

537
00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:34,799
of doesn't fold under the initial onslaught, and what you

538
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:37,920
sort of figure out is, oh, this guy is not

539
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:41,960
only the best dude in his gym, he is by

540
00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:45,160
far the best guy in his gym. He bullies everybody

541
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,000
in his gym all the time, and as soon as

542
00:32:47,039 --> 00:32:50,039
they get confronted with somebody, they not only don't have answers,

543
00:32:51,599 --> 00:32:55,160
they very often just fold mentally because they're just they

544
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,160
haven't gone through that process of getting punched in the face.

545
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:01,319
You know, that confrontation with reality that forces you to

546
00:33:01,359 --> 00:33:04,880
sort of reckon with you know, real limitations and have

547
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,240
to actually like find those other places that you're going

548
00:33:07,319 --> 00:33:07,839
to need to go.

549
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:11,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's just like I tell people, if you're the

550
00:33:11,039 --> 00:33:14,559
smartest person in the room, more often than not, you're

551
00:33:14,599 --> 00:33:16,000
not hanging out with the right people.

552
00:33:16,359 --> 00:33:19,119
Speaker 3: Yeah.

553
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:22,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something that I've said a lot over

554
00:33:22,119 --> 00:33:24,400
the years. Is is a lot of the problems that

555
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,920
we have in society right now, as most people having

556
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:29,680
taken a punch to the face, and a punch to

557
00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,480
the face does change your paradigm, it changes you. And

558
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,680
people have grown up in a people have been raised

559
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:41,759
in an environment where they've been protected where they didn't

560
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:44,839
you know. I mean I ran the streets and when

561
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,799
I was a kid, and there were many situations where

562
00:33:50,319 --> 00:33:53,039
I don't know how I'm alive because you know, I

563
00:33:53,039 --> 00:33:55,000
put myself into a situation where it's like, well I

564
00:33:55,079 --> 00:33:56,920
get hit by a train, I get hit by a bus,

565
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:02,279
right now, things like that. But when you when you

566
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,680
live in a managerial framework, when everything is you know

567
00:34:06,759 --> 00:34:14,320
Burnham's description of managerialism, it is to the least amount

568
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:20,760
of risk to destroy to change the environment you're in,

569
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:25,440
the structure you're in and that kind of you.

570
00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:27,280
Speaker 2: Know, the you know what we saw with COVID.

571
00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: COVID was another one that I think opened a lot

572
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,119
of people's eyes to the fact that.

573
00:34:33,719 --> 00:34:34,639
Speaker 2: The people who are.

574
00:34:34,599 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: Quote unquote professional scientists are nothing but managers.

575
00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:41,079
Speaker 2: It was the guys who you.

576
00:34:41,039 --> 00:34:45,960
Speaker 1: Know, had clinics in California, little clinics that were doing videos,

577
00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,719
that had figured out exactly what was going on, how

578
00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,840
to take care, the best way to to fight what

579
00:34:52,039 --> 00:34:55,679
was going on because they weren't stuck, and they weren't

580
00:34:56,679 --> 00:34:58,920
they didn't have that position where they had a fear

581
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:04,920
of loss, that managerial position. And until you have something

582
00:35:05,199 --> 00:35:09,760
that causes a paradigm shift, you're not going to have change.

583
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:12,519
And I don't think we I think the only change

584
00:35:12,519 --> 00:35:15,519
we had even coming out of something like COVID, obviously

585
00:35:15,519 --> 00:35:19,320
we haven't had a paradigm shift hard enough to bring

586
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,440
us out of We're always fighting the Cold War when

587
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:23,440
it comes to the military.

588
00:35:23,760 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: But I don't think. I think the only thing that

589
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:27,920
came out of COVID.

590
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:31,679
Speaker 1: Is is that people is that normal people realize that

591
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:37,159
it's basically the medical system, everything is BS. But it

592
00:35:37,199 --> 00:35:41,719
didn't it hasn't changed the medical system and how they operate,

593
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:50,400
the presuppositions that they operate upon, and they're they're basically cya.

594
00:35:51,119 --> 00:35:53,760
Everything is about cya when it comes to these people.

595
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:58,280
So yeah, I mean it's sometimes it literally takes a

596
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:00,519
punch in the face and a punch and mouth to

597
00:36:01,519 --> 00:36:02,440
change things.

598
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,599
Speaker 3: One of the things that go ahead.

599
00:36:05,199 --> 00:36:08,519
Speaker 4: There was sometimes several times one of the This.

600
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,800
Speaker 3: Plays into something Spangler does as well, where you know,

601
00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:16,039
he talks about as a society matures and it works,

602
00:36:16,199 --> 00:36:19,599
you know, it's working through like uh, it's work. You know,

603
00:36:19,679 --> 00:36:23,639
it's passed the really explosive period of creativity where there's

604
00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:26,280
this newer idea and they're just you know, you see

605
00:36:26,320 --> 00:36:29,039
all these these you know, he like he talks about

606
00:36:29,079 --> 00:36:31,920
like Mozart and Beethoven for example, right and says, you know,

607
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,960
Beethoven wrote stuff as good as Mozart, but man, Mozart

608
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,000
threw that stuff off like it was nothing. And Beethoven

609
00:36:38,079 --> 00:36:40,119
had to torture his soul to get one of those

610
00:36:40,159 --> 00:36:43,840
things out. Because you know, after a while, as you're

611
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,440
trying to you know, as the tree is branching out

612
00:36:46,599 --> 00:36:50,119
the smaller and smaller twigs, it's a lot harder to

613
00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:55,599
find those those the room for improvement and and original

614
00:36:55,639 --> 00:36:58,960
creative expression you know that hasn't already been done before.

615
00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:01,440
Like there was a period of time time where we

616
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:05,000
weren't just inventing, you know, writing great music. We were

617
00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:08,679
inventing orchestral music, you know what I mean. Like this

618
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,480
is just like the formative period of explosive growth. And

619
00:37:12,519 --> 00:37:14,920
as you get more and more mature, and a lot

620
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:20,199
of these modes of creat creative expression, science, politics start

621
00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:27,039
to become more institutionalized and mature as well. Then, just

622
00:37:27,039 --> 00:37:29,599
like Burnham says, I think Sorell even talks about this

623
00:37:29,639 --> 00:37:32,239
a bit, like you reach this point where you know

624
00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,440
the skill that's being selected for is how good are

625
00:37:36,480 --> 00:37:39,280
you at operating within the system, and how do you

626
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,360
know the rules of the system well enough to like

627
00:37:41,599 --> 00:37:44,000
manipulate them to your benefits so that you rise and

628
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:47,159
that once you get into that place, then you really

629
00:37:47,199 --> 00:37:50,199
do run into that wall where and this is the

630
00:37:50,559 --> 00:37:54,000
Spanglarian point of it, you run into that wall where

631
00:37:54,239 --> 00:37:57,360
people look around and say, man, like I could work

632
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,639
my whole life and you know, maybe not come up

633
00:38:01,679 --> 00:38:04,679
with anything like really new and original like in this

634
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,719
field of expression that I'm that I'm into. And that's

635
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:09,920
when they start to turn around and look and you

636
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,920
start to see and this is not something that's just

637
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,159
a modern Western phenomenon. You see it in other historical cultures,

638
00:38:15,159 --> 00:38:17,320
as Sanga describes as well. That's when you start getting

639
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,320
into this deconstruction period because you still can turn back

640
00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:24,480
on the forms that have already been expressed and created

641
00:38:24,519 --> 00:38:26,960
in your own society and start to critique and tear

642
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:29,400
those apart and pull them, you know, pull up the

643
00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:32,440
various threads and you know, and see what holds together

644
00:38:32,480 --> 00:38:34,800
and just tear things down. In other words, like that

645
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:39,079
becomes just it becomes the the path of least resistance

646
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:41,559
to like being able to put out something at least

647
00:38:41,599 --> 00:38:46,119
that you know that that is a creative expression. The

648
00:38:46,159 --> 00:38:48,519
consequence being, of course, that what you end up doing

649
00:38:48,639 --> 00:38:50,800
is sawing off the branch that you're sitting on.

650
00:38:52,199 --> 00:38:54,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a couple of things I could say about that.

651
00:38:55,079 --> 00:38:57,400
And even like the example of art form, I would

652
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:02,000
take this too. Most you know that we're most exposed

653
00:39:02,039 --> 00:39:06,360
to is the novel slash film, right, because Spangler said

654
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,039
the novel was the only art form in Western civilization

655
00:39:09,199 --> 00:39:13,280
that still had real vital creative energy when he wrote

656
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:16,679
Decline of the West and he said that he really

657
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,119
saw film as like an extension of the novel into

658
00:39:20,519 --> 00:39:23,719
a visual medium. And even then we could take all

659
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:26,719
the you know, sort of ancillary things like short stories

660
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,880
is like a version of that, and the same way,

661
00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,039
you know, television was sort of the same concept applied

662
00:39:32,079 --> 00:39:36,800
to film. So yeah, it's like, again, all three of

663
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,880
us are like late gen X. We remember even just

664
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,719
the eighties, right, just how much energy there was in

665
00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:46,559
creativity and film and books. You know, half of why,

666
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,360
guys my age, you'll get people who just won't shut

667
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,119
up about comic books as there was a time with

668
00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,760
this cheap, you know, crappy little entertainment thing actually had

669
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:58,599
some real entertainment value, real creative value. And you know,

670
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:04,119
our our special effects have gotten infinitely better, but nobody

671
00:40:04,199 --> 00:40:08,000
has a fucking story to tell. To the point that,

672
00:40:08,039 --> 00:40:12,400
you know, it's like every movie that's brand new is

673
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:19,000
like the same thing, except you know, it's about focused egalitarianism.

674
00:40:19,199 --> 00:40:21,199
And the stuff that's really good is like when we

675
00:40:21,280 --> 00:40:23,320
had the Dune film is like, well, let's go take

676
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:28,119
this older story and bring it back and applied to

677
00:40:28,159 --> 00:40:32,719
the military sphere, that's also very true, right, especially peacetime

678
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,719
standing army, Right, it tends to reward people who color

679
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:41,559
within the lines the best, you know, and that's great,

680
00:40:41,639 --> 00:40:45,679
but again that's sort of like the whole monitor version

681
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:49,039
of leadership, which does not win wars and it doesn't

682
00:40:49,079 --> 00:40:52,719
solve problems when there's actually problems, you know, that come

683
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,079
up in real time on the battlefield. Because again, one

684
00:40:55,079 --> 00:40:56,840
of the things I was told, when the things I

685
00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,000
tell everybody'son I ever been Tasta mentor is if you're

686
00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,639
a troop leader, you're an officer, you exist to solve

687
00:41:02,679 --> 00:41:05,599
problems that don't have solutions, because if it had a

688
00:41:05,599 --> 00:41:08,400
written solution, your sergeant would have fixed it before you,

689
00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:10,400
and you would have found it out, you know, at

690
00:41:10,480 --> 00:41:15,440
roll call the next day. And again that's part of

691
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:18,079
why you see so many disgruntled people from our generation

692
00:41:18,119 --> 00:41:21,239
who left the military after being deployed multiple times to

693
00:41:21,559 --> 00:41:24,760
Iraq and Afghanistan. More than anything, it's they couldn't go

694
00:41:24,880 --> 00:41:27,519
back to dealing in an environment in which coloring in

695
00:41:27,559 --> 00:41:30,880
the lines was more important than actually, you know, training

696
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:35,280
troops and preparing for success. And that rambling answer is

697
00:41:35,719 --> 00:41:38,079
we see that, you know, in front of us so much,

698
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:40,920
and again everything is turned into deconstruction.

699
00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:44,639
Speaker 3: I like that advice to officers. I've heard you say

700
00:41:44,679 --> 00:41:48,920
that before, and you know it's it's it's really excellent.

701
00:41:48,960 --> 00:41:51,280
I actually related to it reminds me of something that

702
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,360
Roger Scrutin said in the intro to one of his books,

703
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:57,639
where he's talking about the difference between conservative and progressive

704
00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:01,920
or conservative and liberal political flawsophy being based on the

705
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:04,639
idea that you know, the progressive or the liberal I

706
00:42:04,679 --> 00:42:08,079
can't remember which one he used, you know, has this

707
00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:11,280
idea of politics, like there's this thing we're trying to achieve,

708
00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:14,000
this place we're trying to get, and politics is the

709
00:42:14,079 --> 00:42:17,599
means by which we move to that place, and the

710
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:22,280
basic conservative outlook on that. And again we don't really

711
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:25,760
even have these anymore for the most part. But like, so,

712
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:29,559
don't think I'm talking about Sean Hannity or whatever is that. Uh,

713
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:31,960
you know, there's no there's no end to this thing,

714
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,719
Like there's no big finale at the end of the

715
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:38,920
story where we all win the game of society or

716
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,000
something like that. No, the whole goal or the whole

717
00:42:42,039 --> 00:42:44,320
purpose of politics is much more like the purpose of

718
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,679
a friendship. It's like the whole goal of it is

719
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,840
to make sure we're still friends tomorrow. Like that's the

720
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:52,320
goal of a friendship. There's no purpose to the friendship.

721
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,559
I'm not your friend because we're trying to do X,

722
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:57,159
Y and Z. Like we might try and do X,

723
00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,639
Y and Z because we're friends and we want something

724
00:42:59,679 --> 00:43:02,199
to do together. But the purpose is to keep the

725
00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:07,280
thing going, you know, for another day. And when we

726
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:12,360
start thinking in terms of end states, when we're talking

727
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:15,599
about systems and processes that really don't work that way,

728
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:18,760
I mean that's also how you end up in really

729
00:43:18,800 --> 00:43:21,800
really dark and talk about like politics. I mean, that's

730
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:24,199
when you can end up in some very very dark places,

731
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,119
like you think about like the Bolsheviks, right, their whole

732
00:43:27,159 --> 00:43:29,320
idea is like there is an end state, and we're

733
00:43:29,360 --> 00:43:31,679
going to get to that place period.

734
00:43:32,280 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 4: Human nature be damned, yeah.

735
00:43:34,679 --> 00:43:37,639
Speaker 3: Exactly, and that because once we get there, then you know,

736
00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:40,079
all sins are forgiven, because you know, the only people

737
00:43:40,079 --> 00:43:42,719
who are left will understand why we did it. And

738
00:43:42,800 --> 00:43:45,559
I mean you kind of have this honestly to a degree.

739
00:43:45,599 --> 00:43:48,119
I think this mentality has taken over the Zionis in

740
00:43:48,199 --> 00:43:51,159
Israel as well. You know, they are not playing the

741
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,599
game as if they're going to have to still live

742
00:43:53,679 --> 00:43:56,920
next to these people tomorrow. You know, they're acting as

743
00:43:56,920 --> 00:44:00,119
if like there's some there's something that they can accomplish

744
00:44:00,119 --> 00:44:02,000
and it's just going to be the thousand year right,

745
00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:05,000
and they don't have to worry about, you know, whether

746
00:44:05,800 --> 00:44:11,000
about these people ever again. And you can get very apocalyptic,

747
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,480
you know, in your outcomes when you start thinking that way.

748
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, ignoring human nature becomes very destructive, no matter what

749
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:20,119
your political philosophy.

750
00:44:21,519 --> 00:44:23,519
Speaker 1: Well, you know, one thing that I do like to

751
00:44:23,559 --> 00:44:26,679
point out to people is how in the past war

752
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,519
has been fought and that there has to be honor

753
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:33,480
and you have to have respect for your enemies. That

754
00:44:33,559 --> 00:44:38,280
doesn't that doesn't count for the Bolsheviks. I mean these people,

755
00:44:38,599 --> 00:44:41,760
there was no this wasn't a state, it wasn't two

756
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,280
states facing off. These are people who like would live

757
00:44:45,599 --> 00:44:48,920
in your building, and their goal was to kill you.

758
00:44:49,400 --> 00:44:51,400
They wanted to kill you. They didn't care how many

759
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,880
people needed to be killed. Talking about like a very

760
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,840
recent event is if your first act in an act

761
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:07,400
of war is to take out the leadership, well you're

762
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,599
going to have to negotiate at some point and If

763
00:45:10,639 --> 00:45:13,320
your first thing to do is take out the negotiators,

764
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,360
then to me, you're no better than the Bolsheviks because

765
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,320
you're not looking for an end, you're looking to destroy.

766
00:45:21,519 --> 00:45:25,440
Your whole goal at this point is to create chaos,

767
00:45:25,599 --> 00:45:29,039
as they did. As an I know, by the time

768
00:45:29,079 --> 00:45:33,519
this comes out, Darryl's episode maybe public the second episode

769
00:45:33,519 --> 00:45:37,960
of Enemy, but it just goes that episode describes the

770
00:45:38,000 --> 00:45:41,599
situation in Germany and how they weren't the Bolsheviks weren't

771
00:45:41,639 --> 00:45:45,280
seeking to take over Germany to restore order. They were

772
00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:48,519
seeking to They were seeking chaos and murder and destruction.

773
00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:53,480
And that's all. If your first act is to say, Okay,

774
00:45:53,559 --> 00:45:56,719
we're going to decapitate the leadership, that just tells me

775
00:45:56,880 --> 00:45:59,920
that you are looking at another you want another Libya,

776
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:03,239
and you want it to be complete chaos for the

777
00:46:03,239 --> 00:46:07,079
people on the ground. And like I said, reiterate, that's

778
00:46:07,199 --> 00:46:09,480
you're really no better than the Bolsheviks at that point.

779
00:46:09,840 --> 00:46:11,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it plays into this, you know what we

780
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,599
were saying about deconstruction, about that just will to destroy.

781
00:46:16,800 --> 00:46:22,079
When there's no easily available, like obvious paths to create,

782
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:25,400
people default to tearing down. And that's really sort of

783
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:28,000
the political manifestation of that. You know, for all of

784
00:46:28,039 --> 00:46:32,679
the Marxist clap trap that the Bolsheviks would would spew

785
00:46:33,119 --> 00:46:36,239
when you actually watched them in practice, you know, the

786
00:46:36,400 --> 00:46:39,719
entire thing was driven by a hatred for everything that

787
00:46:39,760 --> 00:46:43,079
already existed and what came after it. I mean, this

788
00:46:43,159 --> 00:46:45,320
is one of the reasons that you know, people will

789
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,119
say to this day that real communism hasn't been tried,

790
00:46:48,159 --> 00:46:51,400
even though there's been fifty different versions of it. And

791
00:46:51,880 --> 00:46:55,000
you know the reason is because the system is not

792
00:46:55,119 --> 00:46:58,400
that important, you know, like, yeah, okay, sees the means

793
00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:00,400
of production. We've all read Marx, we all went to

794
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,440
the sor bone or whatever. But like, you know, the

795
00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:07,360
actual like Vietnamese communism doesn't have to look like Russian

796
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,000
communism doesn't have to look like it doesn't matter, like

797
00:47:10,039 --> 00:47:12,480
the end state really doesn't matter. What matters is it's

798
00:47:12,519 --> 00:47:15,880
this motive energy that's going to allow you to tear

799
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,079
down all of the things around you that you hate.

800
00:47:18,599 --> 00:47:22,639
And the reason that you hate them is because you know,

801
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:26,599
they were created during that period of time where there

802
00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:29,840
were truly great men, you know who were just they

803
00:47:29,840 --> 00:47:34,239
were they were able to create things that are if

804
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:38,400
not impossible, are almost impossible within the constraints of like

805
00:47:38,599 --> 00:47:41,519
the society as it exists in the in the more mature,

806
00:47:41,599 --> 00:47:45,400
sort of institutionalized phases stages. And so you look around

807
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:47,000
and you see all these things that seem to have

808
00:47:47,000 --> 00:47:50,920
been built by giants, and you know, you can really

809
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:53,079
have one of two responses to that. That's like a

810
00:47:53,159 --> 00:47:55,920
reverence for tradition, you know, and a and a sort

811
00:47:55,960 --> 00:48:00,079
of gratitude for your inheritance or you know, the I

812
00:48:00,079 --> 00:48:01,920
guess you'd say, like the ego driven side of it,

813
00:48:02,000 --> 00:48:06,880
or very individualistic side is to be to feel it

814
00:48:07,280 --> 00:48:11,239
as an indictment, you know, and an accusation against yourself

815
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:15,199
and your own inadequacies and wanting to tear that down. Yeah.

816
00:48:15,519 --> 00:48:17,519
Speaker 4: I was going to say first that the same people

817
00:48:17,559 --> 00:48:20,599
who say the communism have never been tried, think that

818
00:48:20,679 --> 00:48:24,559
every single right winger to the right of Hillary Clinton

819
00:48:24,679 --> 00:48:30,159
is or fascism. Yeah, yeah, so all those things. I mean,

820
00:48:30,159 --> 00:48:33,119
the biggest thing I would say that is frequently lost

821
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,480
is I think leftist, rightist, whatever. Most people understand the

822
00:48:37,679 --> 00:48:41,320
eco ecosystem, you know, a complex system in nature is

823
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:45,000
a complex thing with you know, many different parts that

824
00:48:45,039 --> 00:48:49,840
we don't necessarily completely understand, and that damaging it could

825
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:54,239
have you know, long run effects that we can't necessarily predict. Therefore,

826
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,840
we want to have a minimalist approach, a small c

827
00:48:57,000 --> 00:49:01,239
conservative approach. The leftists who believe that also seem to

828
00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,679
think that human nature is infinitely malleable and that there

829
00:49:04,760 --> 00:49:08,480
is no structure in the society outside of the organizational

830
00:49:08,599 --> 00:49:10,440
chart of government as it exists today.

831
00:49:11,119 --> 00:49:15,239
Speaker 3: And well, and what you end up with when you

832
00:49:15,320 --> 00:49:20,519
have a situation like that, where, you know, especially when

833
00:49:20,519 --> 00:49:24,320
they have institutional power as they have in our society

834
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:30,960
since the Second World War, is that the the resistance

835
00:49:31,039 --> 00:49:35,719
they're able to mount to any new systems of thought

836
00:49:35,840 --> 00:49:39,320
or new ideas that are trying to account for the

837
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:44,320
ground reality that the current paradigm is not accounting for,

838
00:49:44,599 --> 00:49:47,519
they have like real means of power to suppress that

839
00:49:48,039 --> 00:49:52,400
and drive it underground. And when that, you know, when

840
00:49:52,400 --> 00:49:56,719
that starts to happen, you kind of actually, you know,

841
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,760
I got a good quote from from one of my

842
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:03,960
favorite books, Chantelle del Soul's book Icarus Fallen. She says,

843
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:09,360
any refusal to acknowledge reality merely forces it underground. Suppressing

844
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,559
conflict does not make it go away, but rather allows

845
00:50:12,599 --> 00:50:15,679
it to come back in less visible and more perverse forms.

846
00:50:15,960 --> 00:50:19,079
As soon as a clandestine form of thought or existence

847
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,000
opposite to its official or legal counterpart appears and develops

848
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:25,880
with any degree of tenacity, we can be sure that

849
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,320
something essential is involved. There's every reason to suspect that

850
00:50:29,360 --> 00:50:32,400
our dominant thinking and institutions must therefore be based on

851
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:36,440
a misguided, if not downright false anthropology. As soon as

852
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:40,119
an underground world becomes organized on a large scale beneath

853
00:50:40,199 --> 00:50:43,800
the official world, as soon as a vast unspoken world

854
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:48,000
develops behind the dominant discourse, one can be sure that

855
00:50:48,039 --> 00:50:52,159
a profound disequilibrium looms. And again, I remember when I

856
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,039
read that, even when I first read Del Soul's book,

857
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:57,000
it reminded me of Kuh And I think maybe that

858
00:50:57,079 --> 00:50:59,199
was because you and I had recently talked about Coon

859
00:50:59,280 --> 00:51:02,199
or something, But it fits in there very well. There's

860
00:51:02,239 --> 00:51:05,119
that period of disruption that he talks about, you know,

861
00:51:05,199 --> 00:51:08,639
where the amount of the pressure that's building up from

862
00:51:08,679 --> 00:51:14,920
all of the unaccountable data is. It puts everybody into

863
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:17,280
the place where I think we are right now and

864
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:21,360
have been for some time, where almost everybody looks around

865
00:51:21,440 --> 00:51:24,119
and they're like, yeah, this isn't this is not going

866
00:51:24,199 --> 00:51:26,920
to work very much longer. You know, this can't possibly

867
00:51:26,920 --> 00:51:29,960
go one doesn't matter. You're right left center, you know what,

868
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:33,840
you have, institutional power, you don't or any everybody's just

869
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,320
kind of looking around like, yeah, this thing's not working anymore.

870
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:41,400
And yet you know, that's a period of like profound opportunity,

871
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:45,519
but profound danger as well, and certainly profound anxiety, you know,

872
00:51:45,639 --> 00:51:47,599
for individuals and societies as a whole.

873
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,679
Speaker 4: Yeah, that gets back to the issue very much so

874
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:54,119
comparing to Kun with the idea of you know, I

875
00:51:54,119 --> 00:51:56,400
can go through the cycle again if you want, if

876
00:51:56,639 --> 00:51:58,920
you consider it to consider it relevant. But the big

877
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,559
thing is we have that option period because you know,

878
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:04,880
facts don't exist in the earlier paradigm. At some point

879
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,920
we have competing at paradigms and that that is sort

880
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,920
of the conflict period before you know, a new paradigm

881
00:52:11,039 --> 00:52:14,039
is adopted, and that's absolutely where we are.

882
00:52:14,159 --> 00:52:14,559
Speaker 2: It's like.

883
00:52:16,000 --> 00:52:20,119
Speaker 4: The current socio political zeitgeist. You know that many people

884
00:52:20,119 --> 00:52:22,239
say dare not speak its name. We know it's based

885
00:52:22,320 --> 00:52:26,320
upon egalitarianism, despite the fact that you know, in every

886
00:52:26,320 --> 00:52:29,800
single way people aren't equal because they're not the same, right,

887
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:32,599
I'm not six foot tall, I don't have a one

888
00:52:32,679 --> 00:52:34,840
fifty IQ. My dad's got both of those things, but

889
00:52:34,920 --> 00:52:38,079
I don't, So, you know, I, in that sense, I'm

890
00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:41,400
definitely not as good as him. And that's just the

891
00:52:41,400 --> 00:52:44,840
way the world is, because we're different. But anything that's

892
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:49,840
anti egalitarian as is something that's going to be vehemently,

893
00:52:50,599 --> 00:52:54,960
militantly opposed, just reflexively, in so many different levels. And

894
00:52:55,679 --> 00:52:58,039
because our system, you know, claims to be a galitarian

895
00:52:58,079 --> 00:53:01,000
though the same system, you know, basically the Chuds, people

896
00:53:01,039 --> 00:53:03,920
like us are inherently less equal. So everybody's equal except

897
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:07,519
for us. You know, everybody's as good as a man

898
00:53:07,559 --> 00:53:09,679
except for a man, and everybody is you know, as

899
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,199
normal as straight people, except for straight people. Meanwhile, we

900
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,000
have a society where nobody wants to protect anybody, nobody

901
00:53:15,039 --> 00:53:19,000
wants to produce anything, and nobody makes children anymore. And

902
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,079
we pretend like this is going to continue on forever

903
00:53:22,159 --> 00:53:26,679
and that this isn't coming towards a chaotic collapse. But yeah,

904
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,400
that idea of just a false anthropology, a an or

905
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:35,000
excuse me, a blatantly wrong idea about human nature. And

906
00:53:35,039 --> 00:53:36,440
I'm one of those people who thinks that you know,

907
00:53:36,559 --> 00:53:39,320
very much the human nature is real. It may not

908
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,599
be something that we can, you know, directly model. We

909
00:53:41,679 --> 00:53:45,119
may not completely understand it, but it's sort of like

910
00:53:45,159 --> 00:53:47,159
the weather. You know. We can have models that are

911
00:53:47,159 --> 00:53:49,280
better and worse, and we can try to understand it,

912
00:53:49,719 --> 00:53:52,599
but very much are Our main model for human action

913
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:54,880
has to include the understanding that people want what they

914
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,000
want and it may be different from us. And a

915
00:53:57,079 --> 00:53:59,440
lot of times all we can understand about another group

916
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,960
of people the person, is how what they want is

917
00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:05,960
different than yours. And you know, there's more things in

918
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:07,800
heaven and Earth than are dripped up in any one

919
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:11,039
of our philosophies. And that's more than anything. The establishment

920
00:54:11,199 --> 00:54:14,199
pretends to have all the answers to everything, and you

921
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,679
know that's hubris, it's myopia. It's just that wilful disconnection

922
00:54:18,159 --> 00:54:20,800
from external facts is so much at the heart of

923
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:25,480
just the rot in authority establishment today.

924
00:54:26,440 --> 00:54:30,199
Speaker 3: Yeah, the you know, it's interesting how the way you

925
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:34,320
just describe egalitarianism, especially as it exists under our like

926
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:41,119
mature institutionalized civil rights regime, is that, you know, in

927
00:54:41,159 --> 00:54:45,639
a weird way, like the institutionalized version of it is

928
00:54:45,960 --> 00:54:50,320
an admission of its inverse, you know, by pointing out

929
00:54:50,440 --> 00:54:52,679
or by by making the case that there's only one

930
00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,880
group of people and it's a definable group and you know,

931
00:54:55,920 --> 00:54:59,960
by various characteristics that are not in need of institutional health,

932
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,760
you know, to make their way through the world. Like

933
00:55:03,800 --> 00:55:07,239
it's almost it's an emission of the superiority of that group,

934
00:55:07,239 --> 00:55:08,760
even though it's not intended that way.

935
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:11,800
Speaker 4: You know, inevitably it becomes a declaration of that group

936
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:16,960
as the enemy. So instead of acknowledging them as better

937
00:55:17,079 --> 00:55:19,519
or worse, they define them as just the outside, that

938
00:55:19,559 --> 00:55:23,760
thing that is permissible to be destroyed. And it's like

939
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:27,280
the original Germanic language word for outlaw literally meant somebody

940
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:29,960
who was outside the law, somebody wasn't protected by the law.

941
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:35,039
And very quickly that's what the dominant American culture is becoming.

942
00:55:36,360 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: It's not a coincidence that as Marxism grows and as

943
00:55:41,039 --> 00:55:44,800
Marxism spreads, that the Enon regime has to be.

944
00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:48,880
Speaker 2: Done away with, and then that we have to fight wars.

945
00:55:48,599 --> 00:55:55,920
Speaker 1: To to destroy monarchy, because monarchy, even bad monarchy, points

946
00:55:55,960 --> 00:56:01,599
towards stability, points towards an eternal something. I think, as

947
00:56:01,639 --> 00:56:04,159
you said in the last episode that you know, some

948
00:56:04,199 --> 00:56:09,960
of these some of these European names were like the

949
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:13,599
Pacific and like the and like the Atlantic. They they

950
00:56:13,639 --> 00:56:17,760
stood a top time at that point, and with their

951
00:56:17,840 --> 00:56:24,000
destruction now we well, I don't even know if you

952
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:30,199
can call it a paradigm shift. To Echo Kun, you you.

953
00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:33,480
Speaker 2: Have to You don't have a shift.

954
00:56:33,519 --> 00:56:39,039
Speaker 1: You have a destruction which eventually will will lead to

955
00:56:39,119 --> 00:56:45,960
some something will lead to order eventually. I do believe that,

956
00:56:46,280 --> 00:56:48,639
So I believe Yaki believed that, and I do believe

957
00:56:48,639 --> 00:56:49,039
that too.

958
00:56:50,400 --> 00:56:53,119
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'd almost say it's like the paradigm shift was

959
00:56:53,960 --> 00:56:58,159
a century ago. I mean essentially the institutional left, which

960
00:56:58,280 --> 00:57:01,000
to include Marxism. But I mean, as as Paul Godfried

961
00:57:01,039 --> 00:57:06,039
Sai and Thomas has said, the problem with critical theory

962
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,559
and you know, social mark cultural Marxism is it's not

963
00:57:09,679 --> 00:57:12,440
really Marxism, even though it's derivative and you know, it's

964
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:14,880
sort of descended from those things. So it's it's something

965
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:17,000
more than that. It's something worse than that that sometimes

966
00:57:17,039 --> 00:57:21,960
we can't really name, but that I think that paradigm

967
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:26,760
really became dominant post World War One because again with

968
00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:30,400
the ending of the Habsburg monarchy. The ending of the

969
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:35,360
hole Inzalens in German Germany, you basically had the elimination

970
00:57:35,519 --> 00:57:38,320
of any monarchy with one or two exceptions in which

971
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:42,920
the actual executive authority was, you know, in the person

972
00:57:43,079 --> 00:57:45,800
of the monarch. And yeah, there are lots of countries

973
00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,519
that have kings, but in a parliamentary state for the

974
00:57:49,559 --> 00:57:52,559
most part, a few exceptions, you know, the king has

975
00:57:52,599 --> 00:57:57,320
as much authority as the president of Israel. Nobody gives

976
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,400
a shit, right, It's where you put a politician that

977
00:58:00,559 --> 00:58:03,480
is neutral enough across the spectrum that you want to

978
00:58:03,519 --> 00:58:06,079
keep from ever holding a real authority in the future.

979
00:58:06,119 --> 00:58:09,480
And that's in many ways that's kind of what you know,

980
00:58:09,599 --> 00:58:13,639
functional monarchies, functional and air quotes are today. It's the

981
00:58:13,679 --> 00:58:16,480
one thing that the British monarchy is most concerned with

982
00:58:16,599 --> 00:58:19,639
is they're not engaged in politics. And as as I

983
00:58:19,719 --> 00:58:22,199
point out, you know, the German the continental understanding of

984
00:58:22,239 --> 00:58:24,480
politics is a little bit broader, a little bit slightly

985
00:58:24,519 --> 00:58:29,159
different than the Anglo American one, where you know, a

986
00:58:29,199 --> 00:58:31,880
German theorist would historically say, no, there's no such thing

987
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,599
as an a political monarchy, because to be the ruler

988
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:41,199
is to exercise politics to exercise decision making authority. And yeah,

989
00:58:41,239 --> 00:58:43,719
that paradigm really changed i think post World War One,

990
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:48,480
with a few exceptions, and you know, it's sort of

991
00:58:48,519 --> 00:58:53,519
like we're living in the the crisis that was sown

992
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:54,840
hundred and fifty years ago.

993
00:58:55,719 --> 00:58:59,119
Speaker 3: One of the things, you know, one of the problems

994
00:58:59,280 --> 00:59:02,639
with conservatives in general, and something that it always runs

995
00:59:02,679 --> 00:59:08,559
into is you know, you see this today, you saw

996
00:59:08,599 --> 00:59:11,119
it after the First World War. You know, it's interesting

997
00:59:11,119 --> 00:59:12,760
how you go back there and you look around and

998
00:59:12,800 --> 00:59:16,920
you're like, there's basically like like everybody's a socialist, like

999
00:59:17,039 --> 00:59:20,639
literally everybody, even the right wing fascists right call themselves

1000
00:59:20,760 --> 00:59:24,239
national socialist. Mussolini was a socialist, you know in name

1001
00:59:24,360 --> 00:59:26,559
before he was a fascist and all these things. You say,

1002
00:59:26,559 --> 00:59:29,760
well why is that? And it's because when the old

1003
00:59:29,800 --> 00:59:32,920
regime falls or starts to come apart, or the contradiction

1004
00:59:33,039 --> 00:59:35,840
start to pile up to the point where you know,

1005
00:59:35,920 --> 00:59:38,960
people are starting to flee the sinking ship and look

1006
00:59:39,039 --> 00:59:42,920
for other options. You know, the conservatives they're always busy

1007
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:45,440
trying to plug the holes in the hole. Like they're

1008
00:59:45,800 --> 00:59:49,920
invested in the status quo and the institutions as they exist,

1009
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:52,599
and once those things are gone. There's this period of

1010
00:59:52,639 --> 00:59:55,719
time where everybody except for the people who were tearing

1011
00:59:55,760 --> 00:59:58,519
the ship down and poking holes in the hole, everybody

1012
00:59:58,559 --> 01:00:00,880
else is kind of looking around like what do we

1013
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:04,159
do now, you know, And it takes some time to

1014
01:00:04,239 --> 01:00:06,880
sort of formulate that and figure it out. And there's

1015
01:00:06,920 --> 01:00:10,599
this period of time where the destroyers have basically free reign,

1016
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:13,199
you know, And I think that, I mean, I really

1017
01:00:13,199 --> 01:00:15,760
think that we're heading toward, you know again to take

1018
01:00:15,800 --> 01:00:19,599
conservatism is something different nowadays. But like, uh, you know,

1019
01:00:20,239 --> 01:00:23,159
once Trump Trump is removed from the scene, you know,

1020
01:00:23,760 --> 01:00:26,719
we have this this quote unquote movement that is that

1021
01:00:26,840 --> 01:00:31,239
is you know, so invested in just the personality of

1022
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:33,960
this one man that you know, even if he goes

1023
01:00:34,000 --> 01:00:36,599
in rallies for somebody in an off year election, like

1024
01:00:36,679 --> 01:00:38,920
nobody's shown up unless he's on the ball, like they

1025
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:41,559
just don't care. And once he's sort of taken off

1026
01:00:41,559 --> 01:00:44,960
the scene, like he built his entire model on delegitimizing

1027
01:00:45,119 --> 01:00:48,079
the entire you know, quote unquote right wing in America

1028
01:00:48,159 --> 01:00:50,679
before that, and once he's gone, you're gonna have this

1029
01:00:50,719 --> 01:00:54,400
period of time, I think where we better get our

1030
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,800
act together pretty damn quick, because the other side is

1031
01:00:57,840 --> 01:00:59,639
going to have free reign for a period of time

1032
01:00:59,719 --> 01:01:02,239
until we do, and we need to start formulating now.

1033
01:01:02,679 --> 01:01:05,280
And I know, like Pete, you know you're you're very

1034
01:01:05,280 --> 01:01:08,320
engaged in this, which I really appreciate, is like this is,

1035
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,599
this is these are questions we need to start asking now.

1036
01:01:10,800 --> 01:01:13,440
You know, this isn't something where and it's and that's why,

1037
01:01:13,599 --> 01:01:17,679
you know, uh, the National Socialist understood this, the the

1038
01:01:17,719 --> 01:01:21,119
fascists in Italy, just all across Europe understood this, except

1039
01:01:21,199 --> 01:01:24,039
maybe in Spain, and even a lot of them there

1040
01:01:24,079 --> 01:01:26,840
did as well, which is that your your job is

1041
01:01:26,840 --> 01:01:29,360
not to bring back or preserve the old order. If

1042
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:31,320
that's the case, you're going to be the dude just

1043
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,199
bailing buckets of water out while the dude is setting

1044
01:01:34,239 --> 01:01:36,840
fire to the sales. And you know, you better be

1045
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:40,320
building another boat. And that's got to be the goal,

1046
01:01:40,400 --> 01:01:42,000
like at a time like this, because it's going to

1047
01:01:42,079 --> 01:01:45,039
be a lot harder to do, you know, once once

1048
01:01:45,320 --> 01:01:46,159
we're underwater.

1049
01:01:47,719 --> 01:01:50,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, a Giomphi's book, I mean, on the subject, he

1050
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,320
said he's not he's not a reactionary. He's an archaeo futurist.

1051
01:01:55,119 --> 01:01:58,360
What are the actual core principles and bring them into

1052
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,000
the indefinite future. The quote I was going to say

1053
01:02:02,119 --> 01:02:04,320
was from the Big Lebowski, which is, say what you

1054
01:02:04,360 --> 01:02:06,519
will about the tenets and national socialism, but it is

1055
01:02:06,559 --> 01:02:11,119
an ethos and I'm sure we'll get interesting comments on that.

1056
01:02:11,239 --> 01:02:14,719
But obviously I'm not a Nazi. But the point is

1057
01:02:14,800 --> 01:02:17,639
effective right wing movements, when they did exist, had a

1058
01:02:17,679 --> 01:02:22,280
definite thing they were for. The I'm not knocking conservatism.

1059
01:02:22,519 --> 01:02:26,320
I really see myself as a paleo conservative, but so

1060
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:30,440
much of what is the right in American culture in

1061
01:02:30,480 --> 01:02:34,480
politics is largely defined by being antithetical to the left.

1062
01:02:34,480 --> 01:02:38,280
That's actually establishment. And it's okay, But if all you

1063
01:02:38,320 --> 01:02:40,400
know is what you're against and not what you're for,

1064
01:02:40,599 --> 01:02:42,480
you know, you're not really in the driver's seat. You're

1065
01:02:42,519 --> 01:02:43,960
just reacting to somebody else.

1066
01:02:45,519 --> 01:02:46,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, there is.

1067
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 1: You can't just build an arc, ok I mean, you

1068
01:02:51,079 --> 01:02:53,920
have to build an arc at this point, but you

1069
01:02:54,039 --> 01:02:55,800
have to know that you know at the end of

1070
01:02:55,840 --> 01:03:00,840
that forty days when you land what comes next. And

1071
01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,440
I think that's what a lot of people are. They're

1072
01:03:04,519 --> 01:03:08,760
waiting around for somebody else to figure out. And I

1073
01:03:08,800 --> 01:03:11,679
think it's that's what it's going to take. Something I

1074
01:03:11,760 --> 01:03:14,280
said about six months ago. I actually emailed it to

1075
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:18,159
myself and forgot about it, and then I was texting

1076
01:03:18,199 --> 01:03:21,239
with a friend the other day and I said, basically,

1077
01:03:21,239 --> 01:03:25,679
we need a visionary we have there's nobody who is

1078
01:03:25,719 --> 01:03:28,199
standing up and going, Okay, this is the vision of

1079
01:03:28,239 --> 01:03:31,840
the future. This is the way we we think that

1080
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:34,960
it can that we can go forward and that we

1081
01:03:35,000 --> 01:03:39,280
can thrive. Now, who's who's behind it? Who's going to

1082
01:03:39,320 --> 01:03:42,360
get behind it? And you need a visionary, you need

1083
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:45,679
a founder. You need you know, in tech they call

1084
01:03:45,719 --> 01:03:48,719
it a founder. For our guys, I don't know that

1085
01:03:48,800 --> 01:03:52,559
anybody has stepped up to figure that out yet, to

1086
01:03:52,679 --> 01:03:57,039
be the dreamer, to be the person who is, uh,

1087
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:01,559
you know, who's like, okay, this, this is exactly what

1088
01:04:01,599 --> 01:04:02,880
it's going to look like.

1089
01:04:03,800 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 4: Yeah. I think part of isolating anybody with an anti

1090
01:04:06,559 --> 01:04:09,159
establishment perspective in the last decade or so has a

1091
01:04:09,199 --> 01:04:12,480
lot to do with that. They may not come out

1092
01:04:12,480 --> 01:04:14,679
of institutional academia, but a lot of times there are

1093
01:04:14,840 --> 01:04:17,360
definitely people who are educating those establishments. They may not

1094
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:20,559
be the institutional command element of the military, but they

1095
01:04:20,639 --> 01:04:23,519
usually come out of the military or the civil service

1096
01:04:23,599 --> 01:04:27,840
or something like that. And part of connecting or disconnecting,

1097
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,199
like Daryl said, all the people who are in any

1098
01:04:30,199 --> 01:04:34,280
way opposed to that establishment paradigm is it makes it

1099
01:04:34,320 --> 01:04:36,679
really hard for those people to be in the situation

1100
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,320
which they could create, you know, a vision and actually

1101
01:04:40,360 --> 01:04:42,760
disseminate it and actually get any kind of buy in,

1102
01:04:43,239 --> 01:04:46,840
not to mention the external feedback required to sort of

1103
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:51,679
revise that vision into a workable model, because America does

1104
01:04:51,719 --> 01:04:53,920
a good job producing really crazy people who know how

1105
01:04:53,920 --> 01:04:56,119
to fix the world, and most of them are on

1106
01:04:56,159 --> 01:05:00,559
the street corner, and that's kind of of the model.

1107
01:05:00,639 --> 01:05:04,000
I agree with you completely, and I don't necessarily have

1108
01:05:04,079 --> 01:05:07,719
the solution of it, than I know, a future leadership

1109
01:05:07,760 --> 01:05:10,679
cadre for whatever comes next is going to invest a

1110
01:05:10,679 --> 01:05:15,519
lot of time and energy into producing a vanguard. What

1111
01:05:15,719 --> 01:05:20,320
kind of vanguard that's up for debate, But that's where

1112
01:05:20,360 --> 01:05:22,280
we're at. And the only place I've seen any kind

1113
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:25,480
of interesting work on this whatsoever, has been in you know, fiction,

1114
01:05:25,599 --> 01:05:28,159
really science fiction and fantasy. Yeah.

1115
01:05:28,199 --> 01:05:31,400
Speaker 3: I mean, I think the thing that the right is

1116
01:05:31,440 --> 01:05:34,800
going to have to figure out, and it's something that

1117
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:37,320
I don't see any evidence of, so far for the

1118
01:05:37,559 --> 01:05:41,360
at least for the most part, is got to learn

1119
01:05:41,400 --> 01:05:44,360
how to follow, you know, I mean, you've just the

1120
01:05:44,960 --> 01:05:49,039
right is great at producing would be generals and not

1121
01:05:49,119 --> 01:05:51,840
a lot of people who are willing to follow anybody else,

1122
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:54,800
especially if the you know, if the person that they're

1123
01:05:54,840 --> 01:05:58,119
following deviates from you know, something like even the slicer.

1124
01:05:58,119 --> 01:06:00,280
There's just a lot of ego involved that makes it

1125
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:02,239
very difficult. And this is something that all the great

1126
01:06:02,239 --> 01:06:05,360
movements of the past that really did create you know,

1127
01:06:05,840 --> 01:06:09,599
long term lasting like wide scale change, whether you want

1128
01:06:09,639 --> 01:06:13,440
to talk about from you know, the spread of Islam

1129
01:06:13,599 --> 01:06:16,440
to Communism under Lenin, I mean Stalin under you know,

1130
01:06:16,480 --> 01:06:18,679
the reason that he won out over Trotsky or one

1131
01:06:18,679 --> 01:06:21,320
of the reasons is he just understood maybe as a

1132
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,199
former seminarian and as somebody who grew up Christian, he

1133
01:06:24,239 --> 01:06:28,280
had a he had a better understanding of the need

1134
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:30,880
for people, the need for the sacred in a in

1135
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:33,159
a in a movement like that, you know, when he

1136
01:06:33,239 --> 01:06:36,360
took Lenin's body and embalmed it, you know, and basically

1137
01:06:36,360 --> 01:06:39,239
turned into this religious relic. I mean, it was something

1138
01:06:39,239 --> 01:06:40,960
that you know, at exhibits even though he might have

1139
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,519
been you know, a professed atheist that he understood something

1140
01:06:44,599 --> 01:06:47,599
at least very fundamental about human nature and human needs.

1141
01:06:48,159 --> 01:06:51,920
And you know, short of a of a real religious

1142
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,360
figure like that, like somebody that sweeps people off their

1143
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:59,639
feet with enthusiasm and emotion and everything, you know, people

1144
01:06:59,639 --> 01:07:01,519
are going to have I mean, this is somebody that

1145
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,719
John you and I like know just from being in

1146
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,440
the military that like, you know, you have to accept

1147
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,239
that the ship sinks unless we say sir, yes, sir

1148
01:07:10,360 --> 01:07:12,719
to an officer that we think is a moron. Sometimes

1149
01:07:12,760 --> 01:07:14,599
it's just how the whole thing has to work, or

1150
01:07:14,599 --> 01:07:17,400
the whole system falls apart, you don't get anywhere accomplish anything.

1151
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,599
And I think that, uh, you know, the right is

1152
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,639
still like very very childlike in that way. You know

1153
01:07:25,119 --> 01:07:27,960
a lot of people who who are unwilling to follow

1154
01:07:28,159 --> 01:07:31,360
is a lot of ego, and we're gonna have to

1155
01:07:31,400 --> 01:07:32,480
We're gonna have to move past that.

1156
01:07:32,639 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 4: I think, Yeah, one advice I give to any person

1157
01:07:36,639 --> 01:07:38,440
who's going to be in a position of authority, and

1158
01:07:38,480 --> 01:07:40,199
I realize this is like the tenth time I've used

1159
01:07:40,239 --> 01:07:43,599
that phrase is if you're not you can't command yourself,

1160
01:07:43,639 --> 01:07:46,360
You're never going to command somebody else. And a lot

1161
01:07:46,360 --> 01:07:48,920
of times I tell people who are you know who

1162
01:07:49,000 --> 01:07:52,400
talk about seriously and I appreciate this, you know, especially

1163
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:54,880
very religious people who want, you know, turn their sons,

1164
01:07:55,079 --> 01:07:57,760
maybe their daughters as well, but their sons into future

1165
01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:00,880
leaders in that hypothetical world where we're going to is

1166
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:04,280
what to do, you know, to turn them into that

1167
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:07,000
kind of leadership leader? I said, you know, first off,

1168
01:08:07,039 --> 01:08:09,719
historically that's what the boy Scouts were for, and it's

1169
01:08:09,760 --> 01:08:13,599
been taken over. But there are times of several you know,

1170
01:08:13,679 --> 01:08:16,760
good competing alternative scouting organizations on the old model. They're

1171
01:08:16,800 --> 01:08:19,119
actually very good. But the other thing I tell people

1172
01:08:19,159 --> 01:08:22,199
is your son needs a dog, because if a son

1173
01:08:22,239 --> 01:08:25,159
can't lead and take care of and actually get a

1174
01:08:25,199 --> 01:08:27,279
dog to follow him, he's never going to get soldiers

1175
01:08:27,319 --> 01:08:31,199
to follow him when they're being shot at. And I'm

1176
01:08:31,199 --> 01:08:35,000
not necessarily categorically critical of every person on our side,

1177
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:39,640
but as Daryl said, there's some very meticulous work that

1178
01:08:39,760 --> 01:08:43,439
is not always fun, that goes into producing effective organizations

1179
01:08:43,479 --> 01:08:48,399
following as well as leading, and there's not any cheat

1180
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,359
code to get around that, right, You've got to do

1181
01:08:50,399 --> 01:08:51,760
it well.

1182
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean, those people can be a part of it,

1183
01:08:53,800 --> 01:08:55,760
be a part of building it, or they can just

1184
01:08:56,079 --> 01:09:00,840
be following it later. Yeah, I mean way they're going

1185
01:09:00,920 --> 01:09:04,399
to benefit from it. But you know, I'd rather be

1186
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:06,960
a part of knowing, even if I'm not part of

1187
01:09:07,000 --> 01:09:10,520
the leadership cadre, that I'm helping to build it and

1188
01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:13,319
bring those people together who can make those decisions.

1189
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, that goes to ego.

1190
01:09:16,159 --> 01:09:18,600
Speaker 1: You know, it's like, I don't, look, I'm I'm too

1191
01:09:18,680 --> 01:09:21,600
fucking old to have an ego at this point. It's like,

1192
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:23,760
I want to I want to live out a peaceful

1193
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:26,159
life and you know, in three years, I don't want

1194
01:09:26,199 --> 01:09:28,760
to be the first podcast or arrested and thrown in

1195
01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:31,800
a fucking hole with an ID life soldier as an

1196
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:34,760
IDF soldier as my fucking jailer exactly.

1197
01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:37,159
Speaker 4: And the two things about that, and part of the

1198
01:09:37,199 --> 01:09:39,880
problem is guys who can't cooperate, as Daryl said, they're

1199
01:09:39,880 --> 01:09:41,359
not even going to be a part of it, right

1200
01:09:41,399 --> 01:09:44,680
because they're why some things fail when nobody can cooperate

1201
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:48,119
to an end. And the second thing is leadership in

1202
01:09:48,159 --> 01:09:50,960
some ways is fractal. Look, not everybody's going to be

1203
01:09:50,960 --> 01:09:53,399
a general. Not everybody's going to be an emperor, but

1204
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:56,199
start off being the person who's actually a leader in

1205
01:09:56,239 --> 01:09:59,840
your household but in your community. So many functions that

1206
01:10:00,079 --> 01:10:05,239
broken down local society, like just people taking local political offices,

1207
01:10:06,159 --> 01:10:09,079
Virginia being the ultimate example. You know, the Democrats swept

1208
01:10:09,119 --> 01:10:12,520
more than anything because the Republican Party Virginia fails to

1209
01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,840
put quality candidates up there because they don't give a

1210
01:10:14,840 --> 01:10:18,279
shit about winning. They care about getting contracts from the

1211
01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:22,520
National Republican Party. But yeah, you may not be an emperor,

1212
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:25,520
but you may have to be somebody in a position

1213
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:28,279
of authority in your local community and at whatever level.

1214
01:10:28,479 --> 01:10:31,399
You know, a proper education the way it was traditionally

1215
01:10:31,520 --> 01:10:34,600
understood in classical Republicanism, like the people who created the

1216
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:37,279
United States of America, is you need to be prepared

1217
01:10:37,319 --> 01:10:40,640
for whatever office and tasks and war and peace that's

1218
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:43,520
required of your community. And I'm not going to pretend

1219
01:10:43,560 --> 01:10:46,159
that I'm like a great example of that, but I've

1220
01:10:46,199 --> 01:10:50,279
come through certain pipelines that were interested in developing that,

1221
01:10:50,920 --> 01:10:53,640
and we need to concert an effort on that because

1222
01:10:53,640 --> 01:10:58,920
I think ultimately that vanguard strategy producing leaderships for the

1223
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:02,399
future is integral into whatever is done to build the

1224
01:11:02,399 --> 01:11:03,199
future tomorrow.

1225
01:11:04,479 --> 01:11:07,159
Speaker 3: On that note, fellas to quote the great Thomas seven

1226
01:11:07,239 --> 01:11:08,720
seven seven, I got to raise up.

1227
01:11:10,000 --> 01:11:14,359
Speaker 1: All right, well, I'll sign us out here, Darryl. Tell

1228
01:11:14,399 --> 01:11:17,239
people where they can find your work and your awesome

1229
01:11:17,319 --> 01:11:18,399
new episode.

1230
01:11:18,840 --> 01:11:23,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, sliok up the Marty made podcast wherever you get podcasts.

1231
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:27,199
If you want to support the show because you just

1232
01:11:27,279 --> 01:11:29,920
like it so much, then go to the substack, which

1233
01:11:30,000 --> 01:11:32,800
is subscribed dot substack dot com. The new series is

1234
01:11:32,840 --> 01:11:35,880
called Enemy the Germans War. I just put out the

1235
01:11:35,880 --> 01:11:38,199
third episode just earlier this week.

1236
01:11:39,119 --> 01:11:42,439
Speaker 1: All right, and doctor field House, we appreciate you joining

1237
01:11:42,520 --> 01:11:49,159
us to share your share, your vision and your the

1238
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,800
information that you've written about Thomas Kune.

1239
01:11:54,079 --> 01:11:54,439
Speaker 2: Thank you.

1240
01:11:54,520 --> 01:11:57,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, I appreciate it. Like I said, more than anything

1241
01:11:57,399 --> 01:11:59,880
is you don't really need to read all of Kuno

1242
01:12:00,359 --> 01:12:02,399
Cliff's notes is good enough. And if I didn't do

1243
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:04,319
it that here I can always add to the future.

1244
01:12:04,800 --> 01:12:06,920
I've got a substack that at some point I'll start

1245
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:11,359
posting to, but definitely read. Listen, subscribe to Pete, subscribe

1246
01:12:11,359 --> 01:12:14,439
to Darryl and Dark Enlightenment. Those are the best guys

1247
01:12:14,479 --> 01:12:16,359
I know, so thank

1248
01:12:16,399 --> 01:12:17,520
Speaker 2: You, appreciate you both