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True Murder with your host, 56 00:02:34.879 --> 00:02:47.840 journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. 57 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:53.800 The search continues. Following up on the meticulously detailed research 58 00:02:53.840 --> 00:02:58.960 of Hunted the Zodiac Murders, Book one, Profile the Zodiac Examined, 59 00:02:59.039 --> 00:03:01.800 Book two goes beyond the case files to develop a 60 00:03:01.879 --> 00:03:08.639 comprehensive psychological profile that examines the personality, psychology, physical characteristics 61 00:03:09.159 --> 00:03:12.840 and motives of the Zodiac. Based in the same detailed 62 00:03:12.879 --> 00:03:17.120 research of Hunted, Profiled sticks to the facts and articulates 63 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:20.400 at every step how the conclusions of the profile were reached. 64 00:03:21.240 --> 00:03:25.280 The Zodiac serial killer murdered wrote letters, created ciphers, and 65 00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:27.639 taunted the police and the people of the San Francisco 66 00:03:27.759 --> 00:03:31.280 Bay Area from nineteen sixty six to nineteen seventy four, 67 00:03:31.879 --> 00:03:36.360 but over five decades has not been identified. At the 68 00:03:36.400 --> 00:03:38.520 time he was active, the term serial killer had not 69 00:03:38.680 --> 00:03:44.039 yet been coined, and psychological profiles were practically unknown. Now, 70 00:03:44.199 --> 00:03:48.199 using twenty first century analytics and a sophisticated understanding of 71 00:03:48.280 --> 00:03:51.919 serial killers, it is possible to create a psychological profile 72 00:03:52.520 --> 00:03:55.719 that may help identify the kind of man who could 73 00:03:55.759 --> 00:03:58.599 commit these terrible crimes and get away with it for 74 00:03:58.800 --> 00:04:02.800 decades spite an overabundance of evidence that should have pointed 75 00:04:02.879 --> 00:04:06.199 directly to him. Join the search for the killer as 76 00:04:06.280 --> 00:04:11.240 the evidence is compiled and analyzed in Profiled the Zodiac 77 00:04:11.319 --> 00:04:15.080 Examined with my special guest, journalist and author Mark Hewitt. 78 00:04:15.400 --> 00:04:17.560 Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much 79 00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:20.480 for agreeing to this interview Mark Hewitt. 80 00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:22.720 And thank you Dan. I appreciate being here. 81 00:04:23.959 --> 00:04:27.879 Thank you very much. Incredible follow up to Hunted the 82 00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:34.079 Zodiac Murders. Let's just briefly talk again. It seems like 83 00:04:34.519 --> 00:04:39.480 not such a sensible question, but why another book about Zodiac? 84 00:04:39.639 --> 00:04:44.040 Why was it necessary to go this much further with 85 00:04:44.199 --> 00:04:45.240 Zodiac Profiled? 86 00:04:47.399 --> 00:04:55.000 Well, good question. I started my decade long fascination slash 87 00:04:55.079 --> 00:04:59.439 obsession with the zodiac about ten years ago, and at 88 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:01.519 the beginning, I had no thought of even writing a 89 00:05:01.560 --> 00:05:04.959 book about it. As I studied the subject, I began 90 00:05:05.120 --> 00:05:11.160 to have some insights and put together observations that nobody 91 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:13.839 else had done at that point. So I began to 92 00:05:13.879 --> 00:05:17.399 write a few articles, and that became the genesis of 93 00:05:17.519 --> 00:05:23.480 my journal ratings and inches. After a couple more years, 94 00:05:23.519 --> 00:05:25.319 I began to think that, you know, I may even 95 00:05:25.399 --> 00:05:27.920 be able to put a book together on the zodiac, 96 00:05:28.079 --> 00:05:30.360 and so I started to make plans to actually write 97 00:05:30.360 --> 00:05:33.920 a zodiac book. Well, one book became two books and 98 00:05:34.000 --> 00:05:38.079 then became three books. So I think I've dug out 99 00:05:38.120 --> 00:05:39.879 so much research and I have so much to say 100 00:05:39.879 --> 00:05:43.480 about it. There's so much information that it became three books. 101 00:05:43.879 --> 00:05:46.720 It's a very complex case, and I wanted to do 102 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:47.639 it justice. 103 00:05:49.319 --> 00:05:51.959 Absolutely, and you have done that. This is incredible. So 104 00:05:52.040 --> 00:05:55.519 let's get right in this. You divide the history of 105 00:05:55.600 --> 00:06:01.879 profiling and things like the FBI early beginning of profiling. 106 00:06:02.040 --> 00:06:05.759 So just tell us a little bit about profiling and 107 00:06:05.959 --> 00:06:11.519 what as you speak about it, what profiling could have 108 00:06:11.639 --> 00:06:15.319 done at the time. Let's just go back to the 109 00:06:15.439 --> 00:06:18.920 time of the crimes in nineteen sixty six. You talk 110 00:06:18.959 --> 00:06:23.519 about them not even knowing the serial killer title wasn't 111 00:06:23.519 --> 00:06:27.199 even coined at that time. Let's just talk about the 112 00:06:27.279 --> 00:06:31.040 crimes at that time and what they thought. Again, profiling 113 00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:34.160 wasn't even a thought in these people's minds. But what 114 00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:36.360 did they think of the crimes at that time in 115 00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:37.639 nineteen sixty six. 116 00:06:39.360 --> 00:06:42.480 Well, basically in the late sixties, as you mentioned, the 117 00:06:42.600 --> 00:06:45.240 term serial killer had not been coined. There were two 118 00:06:45.319 --> 00:06:48.040 types of murderers. There was a murderer of one person 119 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:50.360 and there was a murder of a bunch of people 120 00:06:52.079 --> 00:06:59.040 labeled a mass murderer in different individuals, theories, psychological backgrounds 121 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:03.360 of who would be interested in killing somebody, why does 122 00:07:03.480 --> 00:07:07.839 murder take place? So if there's one person dead, somebody 123 00:07:07.920 --> 00:07:09.959 is a murderer. But if there's a bunch of people dead, 124 00:07:10.000 --> 00:07:14.040 whether it's all in one place like the current spree 125 00:07:14.120 --> 00:07:17.040 killers that we see or the mass murders that we 126 00:07:17.120 --> 00:07:19.920 see currently, or if it's over a period of time, 127 00:07:20.000 --> 00:07:22.279 it didn't matter which just they were considered a mass 128 00:07:22.560 --> 00:07:27.480 murderer and the background behind it. Most people just said, well, 129 00:07:27.519 --> 00:07:30.480 they're crazy, there's something wrong upstairs, and they're killing a 130 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:34.120 bunch of people, so that's who they are. It wasn't 131 00:07:34.199 --> 00:07:37.680 until the seventies and eighties that the term that the 132 00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:41.519 terms got expanded and the term serial killer got coined, 133 00:07:42.759 --> 00:07:45.759 denoting somebody who kills two or more or three or 134 00:07:45.839 --> 00:07:49.879 more individuals with a cooling off period in between. We 135 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:52.399 look at the Zodiac today and we can say, obviously 136 00:07:52.480 --> 00:07:55.560 he's a serial killer because not only were they're cooling 137 00:07:55.600 --> 00:07:58.399 off periods in between, but there was an accelerated rate 138 00:07:58.439 --> 00:08:03.160 of killing. The Zodiacs started. The first two kills that 139 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:07.120 we know of, two murder scenes were three years apart, 140 00:08:07.600 --> 00:08:14.279 and that accelerated up until the distance between Lake Burrus 141 00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:18.399 and murder and murder and Paul Stein's murder was only 142 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:19.199 two weeks apart. 143 00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:24.560 Right now, you talk about just early an investigation, Special 144 00:08:24.639 --> 00:08:29.279 Agent Mel Nikolai of California Department of Justice again this 145 00:08:29.439 --> 00:08:33.639 early attempt to do what we now call profiling. But 146 00:08:33.720 --> 00:08:37.440 he sat down to compose a case summary because, as 147 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:40.679 you say, there was a lot of evidence that was 148 00:08:40.759 --> 00:08:45.440 provided at these crime scenes. So tell us just what 149 00:08:45.679 --> 00:08:50.279 Mel came up with just from his limited experience. 150 00:08:51.720 --> 00:08:54.639 Well, what was unique about the Zodiac was not only 151 00:08:54.720 --> 00:08:59.200 did he commit murder and do it in repeated fashion 152 00:08:59.440 --> 00:09:02.600 in a variety of locations. But he actually wrote to 153 00:09:02.639 --> 00:09:05.639 the police and connected the dots he was involved in 154 00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:09.639 crime linkage of linking up Yes I did this, Yes 155 00:09:09.679 --> 00:09:11.360 I did this, but no I didn't do that one, 156 00:09:12.879 --> 00:09:15.639 which on the face of it is kind of strange 157 00:09:15.679 --> 00:09:18.159 because you would think a killer would want to be 158 00:09:18.279 --> 00:09:20.559 as quiet as possible. Most do, they don't want any 159 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:26.399 police attention. This guy reached out for attention and declared 160 00:09:26.440 --> 00:09:31.480 which murders that he had committed. And mel Nikolay was 161 00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:36.279 a special agent with the California Departments with gathering together 162 00:09:36.440 --> 00:09:40.200 facts for all of the various jurisdictions that were looking 163 00:09:40.279 --> 00:09:42.799 into the case, because at the time, the Zodiac was 164 00:09:42.840 --> 00:09:47.120 wise enough to kill in different counties, different regions, even 165 00:09:47.320 --> 00:09:51.159 if you include the Bates murder in southern California. And 166 00:09:51.879 --> 00:09:55.320 so mel Nikolay sat down and gathered all the facts 167 00:09:55.360 --> 00:09:58.759 as best he could and realized that, well, the Zodiac 168 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.759 must have some kind of interes or background in cryptology, 169 00:10:02.240 --> 00:10:05.000 He must have some kind of interest in the occult, 170 00:10:05.159 --> 00:10:08.440 calling himself the Zodiac, et cetera, et cetera. And he 171 00:10:08.600 --> 00:10:13.519 came up with a reasonable list as far as what 172 00:10:13.759 --> 00:10:16.799 could be guessed about the zodiac, and that's basically all 173 00:10:16.879 --> 00:10:22.039 profiling is, Robert Wrestler said. It's just the profile is 174 00:10:22.120 --> 00:10:24.200 best guess at the type of person they're looking for. 175 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.039 The idea is not to specifically name a name or 176 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:32.240 zero in on a single person, but a profile lets 177 00:10:32.399 --> 00:10:35.000 the investigation know what type of person they're looking for. 178 00:10:35.879 --> 00:10:39.600 Often it allows the police forces to narrow the search 179 00:10:39.759 --> 00:10:42.559 and save a lot of time. If they're looking for 180 00:10:42.679 --> 00:10:47.840 somebody who's wealthy and six feet tall, you can narrow 181 00:10:47.919 --> 00:10:49.919 down your search and eliminate a whole lot of people 182 00:10:49.960 --> 00:10:55.120 that way. So I don't know that mel did what 183 00:10:55.240 --> 00:10:59.360 we would today consider a complete profile, but he listed 184 00:10:59.399 --> 00:11:03.159 the arcturistics based on what people had seen, that he 185 00:11:03.320 --> 00:11:06.960 was roughly five eleven six feet tall, that he was 186 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:10.759 two hundred to two hundred and twenty pounds, et cetera, 187 00:11:10.919 --> 00:11:13.279 just based on what people had seen. Described his voice 188 00:11:13.279 --> 00:11:15.039 a little bit based on the people who had heard 189 00:11:15.080 --> 00:11:20.159 his voice, saying that it was flat, monotone, completely devoid 190 00:11:20.200 --> 00:11:25.679 of emotion. And you know, the for the late sixties 191 00:11:25.720 --> 00:11:27.720 and early seventies in which you worked, it was it 192 00:11:27.840 --> 00:11:29.240 was a pretty good job. Of what he did. 193 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.360 You talk about though, that he really thought that the 194 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.559 handwriting was one of the strongest bits of forensic evidence 195 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:43.720 at that time, and also fingerprints pomp prints. You talk 196 00:11:43.720 --> 00:11:47.679 about how that could have gone awry. Explain how you 197 00:11:47.840 --> 00:11:52.000 think that, despite again best intentions and this guy that 198 00:11:52.200 --> 00:11:56.720 was cutting edge for the time, this investigation could have 199 00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.399 went sideways. 200 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:02.720 Why it could have gone very badly At the best, 201 00:12:02.960 --> 00:12:05.320 As you mentioned, the best forensic evidence they thought they 202 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:12.080 had wasprint fingerprint as evidence in handwriting. Unfortunately, for the fingerprints, 203 00:12:12.519 --> 00:12:16.440 there's no unquestioned print that the police are absolutely certain 204 00:12:17.000 --> 00:12:20.039 that they know belongs to the Zodiac. They think that 205 00:12:20.279 --> 00:12:25.120 there may be, but they're not positive. The fingerprints that 206 00:12:25.240 --> 00:12:28.279 they have on file today have been collected from phone 207 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:32.320 booths and from the taxicab that Paul Stein was driving. Well, 208 00:12:32.600 --> 00:12:38.399 phone booths and taxicabs are public places that pick up 209 00:12:38.440 --> 00:12:40.919 a lot of stray fingerprints throughout the day, and so 210 00:12:41.080 --> 00:12:44.159 any fingerprints that were gathered may not have been the Zodiacs. 211 00:12:44.200 --> 00:12:45.600 And there's been a lot of talk about, oh, the 212 00:12:45.679 --> 00:12:48.919 cab had a bloodied fingerprint, or there were bloodied fingerprints, 213 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:51.279 but if you look at the actual police reports, they 214 00:12:51.399 --> 00:12:54.639 say they found fingerprints that might have a trace of 215 00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.120 blood in them. In other words, there was a speck 216 00:12:57.240 --> 00:13:00.519 or two of something that could have been blood, but 217 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:04.519 it could also have been mud or dirt. These fingerprints 218 00:13:04.559 --> 00:13:09.000 are not unquestionably the Zodiac. So if investigators, the inspectors 219 00:13:09.039 --> 00:13:13.000 from SFPV went around and tried to eliminate people based 220 00:13:13.039 --> 00:13:17.559 on the fingerprints, they may have been using incorrect fingerprints 221 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:22.200 to eliminate people when they should not have been eliminated. 222 00:13:23.320 --> 00:13:26.080 The other thing is handwriting. They're not certain that the 223 00:13:26.279 --> 00:13:30.279 Zodiac's handwriting is actually his, and there's a lot of 224 00:13:30.320 --> 00:13:33.559 reason to believe that it's not, based on basically the 225 00:13:33.679 --> 00:13:39.039 fact that the handwriting that the killer used this is 226 00:13:39.200 --> 00:13:43.360 so distinctive and so messy and so childlike that if 227 00:13:44.159 --> 00:13:48.759 anybody had used that handwriting in their daily life, they 228 00:13:48.759 --> 00:13:51.720 would have been noticed within the first months or years 229 00:13:51.759 --> 00:13:55.320 of the Zodiac case, because a lot of the letters 230 00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:59.039 were published in the paper so that people could see 231 00:13:59.080 --> 00:14:01.399 the handwriting and say, oh, that reminds me of my 232 00:14:01.519 --> 00:14:04.360 uncle John's handwriting. Because it's so distinctive, it's so messy, 233 00:14:04.799 --> 00:14:07.840 the spelling is so bad that so many rule violations 234 00:14:07.919 --> 00:14:11.919 and the way he wrote his letters that he would 235 00:14:11.919 --> 00:14:14.440 have been nailed quite quickly, I believe. So that gives 236 00:14:14.480 --> 00:14:17.519 me the idea that somehow he may have been involved 237 00:14:17.519 --> 00:14:19.200 in faking his handwriting. 238 00:14:21.159 --> 00:14:23.480 Is interesting too, as you talked early on that in 239 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.399 his six page letter, and we'll get to the letters 240 00:14:26.440 --> 00:14:30.559 in your examination of those letters and conclusions. But he says, 241 00:14:30.840 --> 00:14:33.720 just to add to this that he claimed Zodia claims 242 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.840 to have left no fingerprints at his crime scenes. And 243 00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:40.279 again we'll talk about what the importance of some of 244 00:14:40.360 --> 00:14:43.039 the things that he says. And that's what I love 245 00:14:43.080 --> 00:14:46.759 about this book is that how complex this killer seems 246 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:49.279 to be. Just when you think you thought you knew 247 00:14:49.320 --> 00:14:53.799 how complex he was, he's much more. Let's talk about 248 00:14:55.039 --> 00:14:59.639 You talked about the handwriting maybe going awry, and you say, 249 00:14:59.720 --> 00:15:02.639 are pardon me, the fingerprints and the handwriting could be 250 00:15:03.159 --> 00:15:06.559 deceptive and he could have, as you say, used deceptive handwriting, 251 00:15:06.639 --> 00:15:12.200 not his own handwriting. What with the other evidence tell 252 00:15:12.279 --> 00:15:14.559 us some of the early evidence, right from the very 253 00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:18.799 first crime scenes, that was gathered and looked at from 254 00:15:19.120 --> 00:15:20.480 authorities like Nikolai. 255 00:15:25.080 --> 00:15:28.279 I'm not sure what you're asking about specifically, I mean, 256 00:15:28.360 --> 00:15:32.919 beyond the limited forensics, they collected they had on their 257 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:36.080 hands a killer who was showing up getting down people 258 00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:41.600 or stabbing him with a knife with no provocation. Came 259 00:15:41.679 --> 00:15:45.000 to the conclusion eventually that it appeared to be a 260 00:15:45.080 --> 00:15:49.000 stranger killing, that it wasn't somebody known to the killer. 261 00:15:50.440 --> 00:15:53.879 In those type of situations, it's very difficult to identify 262 00:15:54.000 --> 00:15:56.639 killer because there's not a whole lot to go on. 263 00:15:57.840 --> 00:16:00.799 In the subsequent years of the investigation, a lot of 264 00:16:00.840 --> 00:16:04.000 attention has been given to Darlene. Farren said, well, did 265 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:08.120 Saron know her killer? Did she have a relationship or 266 00:16:08.240 --> 00:16:11.120 was this somebody who was angry with her? Well, if 267 00:16:11.159 --> 00:16:14.200 he was angry with her and killed her, that would 268 00:16:14.200 --> 00:16:16.600 have been the end of his need to kill people. 269 00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:19.200 But he continued to kill people, and he continued to 270 00:16:20.600 --> 00:16:24.000 write letters. The focus of attention has been on Darlene 271 00:16:24.039 --> 00:16:26.159 because she was on her second husband and ran around 272 00:16:26.200 --> 00:16:27.919 with a lot of men, so there were a whole 273 00:16:27.919 --> 00:16:30.399 lot of men to look at to look into her background. 274 00:16:31.480 --> 00:16:34.360 But what we know today about Sariah Killers gives us 275 00:16:34.360 --> 00:16:37.799 the idea that that may have been unwarranted. There's no 276 00:16:37.919 --> 00:16:40.840 reason to believe that Darlene was the focus of attack. 277 00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080 Anymore than Betty lou Jensen was the focus of the attacks, 278 00:16:45.240 --> 00:16:48.200 but no attention has been given to her because it 279 00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:50.600 was her first date, first time she ever been out 280 00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:53.679 with the guy, so not a whole lot of relationships 281 00:16:53.720 --> 00:16:56.039 to look into. And they did look into a couple 282 00:16:56.080 --> 00:17:01.159 of former boyfriends who were just casual dates around high school, 283 00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:05.799 but there is nothing to connect her to anything, but 284 00:17:06.240 --> 00:17:08.440 a lot of attention has been given to Darlene Ferron. 285 00:17:11.359 --> 00:17:14.920 You talk about this, the entire book is about the profile, 286 00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:18.000 and so what you talk about is the early profiles 287 00:17:18.039 --> 00:17:20.680 where they talk about the main categorizations and you talk 288 00:17:20.680 --> 00:17:24.559 about the motivations for serial killers and what those are. 289 00:17:25.440 --> 00:17:32.559 Tell us how this profile was formed and regarding that information. 290 00:17:35.960 --> 00:17:39.480 Well, you talk about my profile, how I put it together. 291 00:17:40.559 --> 00:17:42.920 Yes, when we talk about we talk about motivation. You 292 00:17:43.400 --> 00:17:45.640 talk about the motivation of serial killers and the research 293 00:17:45.720 --> 00:17:48.799 that has been done in those categories. So we just 294 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:51.920 want to skip ahead in terms of that information and 295 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:56.839 exactly when you look at the classic profile, where does 296 00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:00.680 the zodiac sit in terms of we'll say motivation for murder? 297 00:18:00.759 --> 00:18:06.599 What is that classification that fits that the known evidence 298 00:18:06.680 --> 00:18:10.400 of the known information and your application to this, how 299 00:18:10.960 --> 00:18:15.640 you think zodiac fits in completely, partly, or not at all, 300 00:18:15.880 --> 00:18:17.440 tell us about. 301 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.480 What you're well. Possibly the most important thing I said 302 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:23.200 in the book is the field of psychology is new 303 00:18:23.279 --> 00:18:27.519 and ever changing. Psychology is only what forty fifty years 304 00:18:27.559 --> 00:18:30.599 old now, maybe a little bit longer now since the 305 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:35.279 nineteen fifties, sixty seventy years old. Because of its short 306 00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:41.680 time compared to other disciplines, a lot of new theories 307 00:18:41.720 --> 00:18:45.519 pop up and come and go. So the FBI is 308 00:18:45.599 --> 00:18:49.000 they have grappled with the psychology behind serial killers, has 309 00:18:49.079 --> 00:18:51.759 had a lot of different theories over the years of 310 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:56.839 how many types there are. Generally they've settled on back 311 00:18:56.839 --> 00:18:58.519 in the eighties they came to the conclusion that they 312 00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:03.599 are basically four type to serial killers and based on motives. 313 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:06.799 But what makes it very difficult is often serial killers 314 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:08.880 act out of one or more, two or more of 315 00:19:09.000 --> 00:19:14.440 these motivations. One is the missionary serial killer who kills 316 00:19:14.519 --> 00:19:20.079 as a means to communicate something to the public or 317 00:19:20.880 --> 00:19:24.920 based on their own ideology. Some of the mass murders 318 00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:28.759 who have been done by religious reasons seem to be 319 00:19:30.519 --> 00:19:33.880 killings as a result of missionary work of based on 320 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:38.279 their ideology, their religion, they go out and kill. And 321 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:41.680 the second type is the psychotic serial killer. That's the 322 00:19:41.759 --> 00:19:44.799 serial killer who is out of touch with reality, who 323 00:19:45.079 --> 00:19:48.880 kind of comes and goes off, and schizophrenic who kills 324 00:19:49.079 --> 00:19:51.640 because voices tell them to kill, or may not even 325 00:19:51.720 --> 00:19:55.200 know that they're killing and doing something wrong. A third 326 00:19:55.279 --> 00:19:59.640 type is the sexually motivated serial killer. And with those 327 00:19:59.720 --> 00:20:03.279 we think somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy, who 328 00:20:03.359 --> 00:20:07.319 are obviously sexually motivated in what it is that they're doing. 329 00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:10.720 And then the fourth type it's eluding me at the second, 330 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:19.279 at the moment it yeah, it escapes me at this point. 331 00:20:20.839 --> 00:20:21.519 The types of. 332 00:20:23.480 --> 00:20:28.519 Go ahead, well, I'd say the visionary and the missionary, uh, 333 00:20:28.640 --> 00:20:33.799 the for monetary and for revenge. So then there's you have. 334 00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:38.960 And that's a that's a different classification as well, that's 335 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.720 based on other other other types. I think I I 336 00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:47.519 listed several different theories of serial killers in the book. 337 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:52.000 But anyways, the Zodiac, it's obvious that there's some type 338 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:54.920 of sexual connection to them, to him and his murders. 339 00:20:55.039 --> 00:20:57.480 He is a at least in part, a sexually motivated 340 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:02.799 serial killer. The people he killed were or attacked were 341 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:07.319 for the most part, in amorous situations in lover's lanes, 342 00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:12.000 suggesting that there was something going on sexually. The Zodiac 343 00:21:12.119 --> 00:21:17.200 never raped his victims or touched his victims molested the victims, 344 00:21:17.519 --> 00:21:20.839 but that doesn't necessity necessitate the fact that they aren't 345 00:21:21.240 --> 00:21:28.440 sexually motivated. Very juvenile offenders can be sexually oriented. It's 346 00:21:28.480 --> 00:21:31.559 sexually motivated and just don't know what to do or 347 00:21:31.799 --> 00:21:35.680 afraid to do something with a body. Others are motivated 348 00:21:38.400 --> 00:21:42.839 to look or do something, you know, very very minor sexually, 349 00:21:43.240 --> 00:21:46.920 and others have a twisted relationship between violence and sex 350 00:21:47.000 --> 00:21:51.279 and they get those two kind of confused in their mind, 351 00:21:51.359 --> 00:21:54.599 and so when they're enacting violence, there's a sexual component 352 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.119 for them. The fourth type that I couldn't think of 353 00:21:59.319 --> 00:22:03.960 was the power a sort of serial killer who kills 354 00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:07.119 out of and needs for control. This is an individual 355 00:22:07.160 --> 00:22:10.480 who is out of control in almost all other areas 356 00:22:10.559 --> 00:22:13.880 of his or her life, and by killing somebody and 357 00:22:14.279 --> 00:22:18.000 taking control of them, they feel a certain amount of power. 358 00:22:18.319 --> 00:22:21.839 It compensates for what's lacking in their lives. And these 359 00:22:21.920 --> 00:22:26.039 type can be cannibals because the ultimate means of control 360 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.480 to some people is actually ingesting the body of their victim. 361 00:22:34.000 --> 00:22:37.400 You talk about to back this up that on more 362 00:22:37.440 --> 00:22:40.519 than one occasion, the Zodiac compared the thrill of killing 363 00:22:41.079 --> 00:22:44.079 to the act of sex. So you say, despite their 364 00:22:44.119 --> 00:22:50.079 actually being this obvious sexually motivation, very much like you 365 00:22:50.359 --> 00:22:55.160 point out Son of Sam Berkowitz, where he admitted later 366 00:22:55.279 --> 00:22:57.799 that he went back to the crime scenes and masturbated. 367 00:22:57.960 --> 00:23:02.680 So these you classify the Zodiac as being sexually a 368 00:23:02.759 --> 00:23:05.359 motive sexually motivated killer. And what I was talking about, 369 00:23:05.519 --> 00:23:08.839 and you clarify that that there's motivations and then there's 370 00:23:08.880 --> 00:23:11.599 the basic classifications for the serial killing. 371 00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:17.400 Yeah, definitely the Zodiac there was a sexual component. And 372 00:23:17.559 --> 00:23:21.279 twice in his letters he compared the act of sex 373 00:23:21.559 --> 00:23:24.799 the act of violence to sex. In the confession letter 374 00:23:25.440 --> 00:23:32.200 he talked about he had his hand on the breast 375 00:23:32.319 --> 00:23:35.000 of Bates, but there was only one thing on his mind, 376 00:23:35.039 --> 00:23:37.839 and that was the committing of violence. Also in the 377 00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:41.680 solution to the four h eight cipher, he said he 378 00:23:41.839 --> 00:23:44.920 wrote that murder is better than getting your rocks off 379 00:23:44.960 --> 00:23:49.880 with a girl. Well, anybody who compares violence and killing 380 00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:54.400 to sex and favors and in favor of and falls 381 00:23:54.440 --> 00:23:57.319 in favor of violence, you know there's something going wrong 382 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:01.640 mentally that early on in life they have somehow made 383 00:24:01.720 --> 00:24:04.880 the connection between sex and violence and they can't they 384 00:24:04.920 --> 00:24:09.359 can't separate the two. And this is probably the origin 385 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:13.319 of a lot of bondage and other other types of 386 00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:17.640 sado masochism that that can take place in people's lives. 387 00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:20.720 But take into the ultimate extreme, you get a serial killer. 388 00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:22.960 I'm sorry, what was the other What was the end 389 00:24:23.039 --> 00:24:24.720 of that question that you you asked? 390 00:24:27.680 --> 00:24:31.279 I think I just made a statement. You talk about, okay, 391 00:24:32.240 --> 00:24:35.480 to identify a killer's signature. This I thought was interesting, 392 00:24:35.559 --> 00:24:40.160 And you talk about the differentiation between m O and signature, 393 00:24:40.440 --> 00:24:43.759 and then you give examples of Jack the Ripper and 394 00:24:44.240 --> 00:24:48.039 just what they actively don't need to accomplish but yet 395 00:24:48.079 --> 00:24:51.000 they do. So tell us, as you do, explain this 396 00:24:51.200 --> 00:24:54.160 signature and m O and what that tells us about 397 00:24:54.160 --> 00:24:54.559 a killer. 398 00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:58.400 That signature, that's a that's a That's a huge differentiation, 399 00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:02.440 and it's it's frequently misunderstood. I don't know how many 400 00:25:02.480 --> 00:25:05.319 people I've talked to in the last year have said, oh, 401 00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:10.000