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Speaker 7: You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking
Speaker 7: killers in true crime history and the authors that have
Speaker 7: written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every
Speaker 7: week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and
Speaker 7: infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host,
Speaker 7: journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening.
Speaker 8: The search continues. Following up on the meticulously detailed research
Speaker 8: of Hunted the Zodiac Murders, Book one, Profile the Zodiac Examined,
Speaker 8: Book two goes beyond the case files to develop a
Speaker 8: comprehensive psychological profile that examines the personality, psychology, physical characteristics
Speaker 8: and motives of the Zodiac. Based in the same detailed
Speaker 8: research of Hunted, Profiled sticks to the facts and articulates
Speaker 8: at every step how the conclusions of the profile were reached.
Speaker 8: The Zodiac serial killer murdered wrote letters, created ciphers, and
Speaker 8: taunted the police and the people of the San Francisco
Speaker 8: Bay Area from nineteen sixty six to nineteen seventy four,
Speaker 8: but over five decades has not been identified. At the
Speaker 8: time he was active, the term serial killer had not
Speaker 8: yet been coined, and psychological profiles were practically unknown. Now,
Speaker 8: using twenty first century analytics and a sophisticated understanding of
Speaker 8: serial killers, it is possible to create a psychological profile
Speaker 8: that may help identify the kind of man who could
Speaker 8: commit these terrible crimes and get away with it for
Speaker 8: decades spite an overabundance of evidence that should have pointed
Speaker 8: directly to him. Join the search for the killer as
Speaker 8: the evidence is compiled and analyzed in Profiled the Zodiac
Speaker 8: Examined with my special guest, journalist and author Mark Hewitt.
Speaker 8: Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much
Speaker 8: for agreeing to this interview Mark Hewitt.
Speaker 4: And thank you Dan. I appreciate being here.
Speaker 8: Thank you very much. Incredible follow up to Hunted the
Speaker 8: Zodiac Murders. Let's just briefly talk again. It seems like
Speaker 8: not such a sensible question, but why another book about Zodiac?
Speaker 8: Why was it necessary to go this much further with
Speaker 8: Zodiac Profiled?
Speaker 4: Well, good question. I started my decade long fascination slash
Speaker 4: obsession with the zodiac about ten years ago, and at
Speaker 4: the beginning, I had no thought of even writing a
Speaker 4: book about it. As I studied the subject, I began
Speaker 4: to have some insights and put together observations that nobody
Speaker 4: else had done at that point. So I began to
Speaker 4: write a few articles, and that became the genesis of
Speaker 4: my journal ratings and inches. After a couple more years,
Speaker 4: I began to think that, you know, I may even
Speaker 4: be able to put a book together on the zodiac,
Speaker 4: and so I started to make plans to actually write
Speaker 4: a zodiac book. Well, one book became two books and
Speaker 4: then became three books. So I think I've dug out
Speaker 4: so much research and I have so much to say
Speaker 4: about it. There's so much information that it became three books.
Speaker 4: It's a very complex case, and I wanted to do
Speaker 4: it justice.
Speaker 8: Absolutely, and you have done that. This is incredible. So
Speaker 8: let's get right in this. You divide the history of
Speaker 8: profiling and things like the FBI early beginning of profiling.
Speaker 8: So just tell us a little bit about profiling and
Speaker 8: what as you speak about it, what profiling could have
Speaker 8: done at the time. Let's just go back to the
Speaker 8: time of the crimes in nineteen sixty six. You talk
Speaker 8: about them not even knowing the serial killer title wasn't
Speaker 8: even coined at that time. Let's just talk about the
Speaker 8: crimes at that time and what they thought. Again, profiling
Speaker 8: wasn't even a thought in these people's minds. But what
Speaker 8: did they think of the crimes at that time in
Speaker 8: nineteen sixty six.
Speaker 4: Well, basically in the late sixties, as you mentioned, the
Speaker 4: term serial killer had not been coined. There were two
Speaker 4: types of murderers. There was a murderer of one person
Speaker 4: and there was a murder of a bunch of people
Speaker 4: labeled a mass murderer in different individuals, theories, psychological backgrounds
Speaker 4: of who would be interested in killing somebody, why does
Speaker 4: murder take place? So if there's one person dead, somebody
Speaker 4: is a murderer. But if there's a bunch of people dead,
Speaker 4: whether it's all in one place like the current spree
Speaker 4: killers that we see or the mass murders that we
Speaker 4: see currently, or if it's over a period of time,
Speaker 4: it didn't matter which just they were considered a mass
Speaker 4: murderer and the background behind it. Most people just said, well,
Speaker 4: they're crazy, there's something wrong upstairs, and they're killing a
Speaker 4: bunch of people, so that's who they are. It wasn't
Speaker 4: until the seventies and eighties that the term that the
Speaker 4: terms got expanded and the term serial killer got coined,
Speaker 4: denoting somebody who kills two or more or three or
Speaker 4: more individuals with a cooling off period in between. We
Speaker 4: look at the Zodiac today and we can say, obviously
Speaker 4: he's a serial killer because not only were they're cooling
Speaker 4: off periods in between, but there was an accelerated rate
Speaker 4: of killing. The Zodiacs started. The first two kills that
Speaker 4: we know of, two murder scenes were three years apart,
Speaker 4: and that accelerated up until the distance between Lake Burrus
Speaker 4: and murder and murder and Paul Stein's murder was only
Speaker 4: two weeks apart.
Speaker 8: Right now, you talk about just early an investigation, Special
Speaker 8: Agent Mel Nikolai of California Department of Justice again this
Speaker 8: early attempt to do what we now call profiling. But
Speaker 8: he sat down to compose a case summary because, as
Speaker 8: you say, there was a lot of evidence that was
Speaker 8: provided at these crime scenes. So tell us just what
Speaker 8: Mel came up with just from his limited experience.
Speaker 4: Well, what was unique about the Zodiac was not only
Speaker 4: did he commit murder and do it in repeated fashion
Speaker 4: in a variety of locations. But he actually wrote to
Speaker 4: the police and connected the dots he was involved in
Speaker 4: crime linkage of linking up Yes I did this, Yes
Speaker 4: I did this, but no I didn't do that one,
Speaker 4: which on the face of it is kind of strange
Speaker 4: because you would think a killer would want to be
Speaker 4: as quiet as possible. Most do, they don't want any
Speaker 4: police attention. This guy reached out for attention and declared
Speaker 4: which murders that he had committed. And mel Nikolay was
Speaker 4: a special agent with the California Departments with gathering together
Speaker 4: facts for all of the various jurisdictions that were looking
Speaker 4: into the case, because at the time, the Zodiac was
Speaker 4: wise enough to kill in different counties, different regions, even
Speaker 4: if you include the Bates murder in southern California. And
Speaker 4: so mel Nikolay sat down and gathered all the facts
Speaker 4: as best he could and realized that, well, the Zodiac
Speaker 4: must have some kind of interes or background in cryptology,
Speaker 4: He must have some kind of interest in the occult,
Speaker 4: calling himself the Zodiac, et cetera, et cetera. And he
Speaker 4: came up with a reasonable list as far as what
Speaker 4: could be guessed about the zodiac, and that's basically all
Speaker 4: profiling is, Robert Wrestler said. It's just the profile is
Speaker 4: best guess at the type of person they're looking for.
Speaker 4: The idea is not to specifically name a name or
Speaker 4: zero in on a single person, but a profile lets
Speaker 4: the investigation know what type of person they're looking for.
Speaker 4: Often it allows the police forces to narrow the search
Speaker 4: and save a lot of time. If they're looking for
Speaker 4: somebody who's wealthy and six feet tall, you can narrow
Speaker 4: down your search and eliminate a whole lot of people
Speaker 4: that way. So I don't know that mel did what
Speaker 4: we would today consider a complete profile, but he listed
Speaker 4: the arcturistics based on what people had seen, that he
Speaker 4: was roughly five eleven six feet tall, that he was
Speaker 4: two hundred to two hundred and twenty pounds, et cetera,
Speaker 4: just based on what people had seen. Described his voice
Speaker 4: a little bit based on the people who had heard
Speaker 4: his voice, saying that it was flat, monotone, completely devoid
Speaker 4: of emotion. And you know, the for the late sixties
Speaker 4: and early seventies in which you worked, it was it
Speaker 4: was a pretty good job. Of what he did.
Speaker 8: You talk about though, that he really thought that the
Speaker 8: handwriting was one of the strongest bits of forensic evidence
Speaker 8: at that time, and also fingerprints pomp prints. You talk
Speaker 8: about how that could have gone awry. Explain how you
Speaker 8: think that, despite again best intentions and this guy that
Speaker 8: was cutting edge for the time, this investigation could have
Speaker 8: went sideways.
Speaker 4: Why it could have gone very badly At the best,
Speaker 4: As you mentioned, the best forensic evidence they thought they
Speaker 4: had wasprint fingerprint as evidence in handwriting. Unfortunately, for the fingerprints,
Speaker 4: there's no unquestioned print that the police are absolutely certain
Speaker 4: that they know belongs to the Zodiac. They think that
Speaker 4: there may be, but they're not positive. The fingerprints that
Speaker 4: they have on file today have been collected from phone
Speaker 4: booths and from the taxicab that Paul Stein was driving. Well,
Speaker 4: phone booths and taxicabs are public places that pick up
Speaker 4: a lot of stray fingerprints throughout the day, and so
Speaker 4: any fingerprints that were gathered may not have been the Zodiacs.
Speaker 4: And there's been a lot of talk about, oh, the
Speaker 4: cab had a bloodied fingerprint, or there were bloodied fingerprints,
Speaker 4: but if you look at the actual police reports, they
Speaker 4: say they found fingerprints that might have a trace of
Speaker 4: blood in them. In other words, there was a speck
Speaker 4: or two of something that could have been blood, but
Speaker 4: it could also have been mud or dirt. These fingerprints
Speaker 4: are not unquestionably the Zodiac. So if investigators, the inspectors
Speaker 4: from SFPV went around and tried to eliminate people based
Speaker 4: on the fingerprints, they may have been using incorrect fingerprints
Speaker 4: to eliminate people when they should not have been eliminated.
Speaker 4: The other thing is handwriting. They're not certain that the
Speaker 4: Zodiac's handwriting is actually his, and there's a lot of
Speaker 4: reason to believe that it's not, based on basically the
Speaker 4: fact that the handwriting that the killer used this is
Speaker 4: so distinctive and so messy and so childlike that if
Speaker 4: anybody had used that handwriting in their daily life, they
Speaker 4: would have been noticed within the first months or years
Speaker 4: of the Zodiac case, because a lot of the letters
Speaker 4: were published in the paper so that people could see
Speaker 4: the handwriting and say, oh, that reminds me of my
Speaker 4: uncle John's handwriting. Because it's so distinctive, it's so messy,
Speaker 4: the spelling is so bad that so many rule violations
Speaker 4: and the way he wrote his letters that he would
Speaker 4: have been nailed quite quickly, I believe. So that gives
Speaker 4: me the idea that somehow he may have been involved
Speaker 4: in faking his handwriting.
Speaker 8: Is interesting too, as you talked early on that in
Speaker 8: his six page letter, and we'll get to the letters
Speaker 8: in your examination of those letters and conclusions. But he says,
Speaker 8: just to add to this that he claimed Zodia claims
Speaker 8: to have left no fingerprints at his crime scenes. And
Speaker 8: again we'll talk about what the importance of some of
Speaker 8: the things that he says. And that's what I love
Speaker 8: about this book is that how complex this killer seems
Speaker 8: to be. Just when you think you thought you knew
Speaker 8: how complex he was, he's much more. Let's talk about
Speaker 8: You talked about the handwriting maybe going awry, and you say,
Speaker 8: are pardon me, the fingerprints and the handwriting could be
Speaker 8: deceptive and he could have, as you say, used deceptive handwriting,
Speaker 8: not his own handwriting. What with the other evidence tell
Speaker 8: us some of the early evidence, right from the very
Speaker 8: first crime scenes, that was gathered and looked at from
Speaker 8: authorities like Nikolai.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure what you're asking about specifically, I mean,
Speaker 4: beyond the limited forensics, they collected they had on their
Speaker 4: hands a killer who was showing up getting down people
Speaker 4: or stabbing him with a knife with no provocation. Came
Speaker 4: to the conclusion eventually that it appeared to be a
Speaker 4: stranger killing, that it wasn't somebody known to the killer.
Speaker 4: In those type of situations, it's very difficult to identify
Speaker 4: killer because there's not a whole lot to go on.
Speaker 4: In the subsequent years of the investigation, a lot of
Speaker 4: attention has been given to Darlene. Farren said, well, did
Speaker 4: Saron know her killer? Did she have a relationship or
Speaker 4: was this somebody who was angry with her? Well, if
Speaker 4: he was angry with her and killed her, that would
Speaker 4: have been the end of his need to kill people.
Speaker 4: But he continued to kill people, and he continued to
Speaker 4: write letters. The focus of attention has been on Darlene
Speaker 4: because she was on her second husband and ran around
Speaker 4: with a lot of men, so there were a whole
Speaker 4: lot of men to look at to look into her background.
Speaker 4: But what we know today about Sariah Killers gives us
Speaker 4: the idea that that may have been unwarranted. There's no
Speaker 4: reason to believe that Darlene was the focus of attack.
Speaker 4: Anymore than Betty lou Jensen was the focus of the attacks,
Speaker 4: but no attention has been given to her because it
Speaker 4: was her first date, first time she ever been out
Speaker 4: with the guy, so not a whole lot of relationships
Speaker 4: to look into. And they did look into a couple
Speaker 4: of former boyfriends who were just casual dates around high school,
Speaker 4: but there is nothing to connect her to anything, but
Speaker 4: a lot of attention has been given to Darlene Ferron.
Speaker 8: You talk about this, the entire book is about the profile,
Speaker 8: and so what you talk about is the early profiles
Speaker 8: where they talk about the main categorizations and you talk
Speaker 8: about the motivations for serial killers and what those are.
Speaker 8: Tell us how this profile was formed and regarding that information.
Speaker 4: Well, you talk about my profile, how I put it together.
Speaker 8: Yes, when we talk about we talk about motivation. You
Speaker 8: talk about the motivation of serial killers and the research
Speaker 8: that has been done in those categories. So we just
Speaker 8: want to skip ahead in terms of that information and
Speaker 8: exactly when you look at the classic profile, where does
Speaker 8: the zodiac sit in terms of we'll say motivation for murder?
Speaker 8: What is that classification that fits that the known evidence
Speaker 8: of the known information and your application to this, how
Speaker 8: you think zodiac fits in completely, partly, or not at all,
Speaker 8: tell us about.
Speaker 4: What you're well. Possibly the most important thing I said
Speaker 4: in the book is the field of psychology is new
Speaker 4: and ever changing. Psychology is only what forty fifty years
Speaker 4: old now, maybe a little bit longer now since the
Speaker 4: nineteen fifties, sixty seventy years old. Because of its short
Speaker 4: time compared to other disciplines, a lot of new theories
Speaker 4: pop up and come and go. So the FBI is
Speaker 4: they have grappled with the psychology behind serial killers, has
Speaker 4: had a lot of different theories over the years of
Speaker 4: how many types there are. Generally they've settled on back
Speaker 4: in the eighties they came to the conclusion that they
Speaker 4: are basically four type to serial killers and based on motives.
Speaker 4: But what makes it very difficult is often serial killers
Speaker 4: act out of one or more, two or more of
Speaker 4: these motivations. One is the missionary serial killer who kills
Speaker 4: as a means to communicate something to the public or
Speaker 4: based on their own ideology. Some of the mass murders
Speaker 4: who have been done by religious reasons seem to be
Speaker 4: killings as a result of missionary work of based on
Speaker 4: their ideology, their religion, they go out and kill. And
Speaker 4: the second type is the psychotic serial killer. That's the
Speaker 4: serial killer who is out of touch with reality, who
Speaker 4: kind of comes and goes off, and schizophrenic who kills
Speaker 4: because voices tell them to kill, or may not even
Speaker 4: know that they're killing and doing something wrong. A third
Speaker 4: type is the sexually motivated serial killer. And with those
Speaker 4: we think somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer or Ted Bundy, who
Speaker 4: are obviously sexually motivated in what it is that they're doing.
Speaker 4: And then the fourth type it's eluding me at the second,
Speaker 4: at the moment it yeah, it escapes me at this point.
Speaker 4: The types of.
Speaker 8: Go ahead, well, I'd say the visionary and the missionary, uh,
Speaker 8: the for monetary and for revenge. So then there's you have.
Speaker 4: And that's a that's a different classification as well, that's
Speaker 4: based on other other other types. I think I I
Speaker 4: listed several different theories of serial killers in the book.
Speaker 4: But anyways, the Zodiac, it's obvious that there's some type
Speaker 4: of sexual connection to them, to him and his murders.
Speaker 4: He is a at least in part, a sexually motivated
Speaker 4: serial killer. The people he killed were or attacked were
Speaker 4: for the most part, in amorous situations in lover's lanes,
Speaker 4: suggesting that there was something going on sexually. The Zodiac
Speaker 4: never raped his victims or touched his victims molested the victims,
Speaker 4: but that doesn't necessity necessitate the fact that they aren't
Speaker 4: sexually motivated. Very juvenile offenders can be sexually oriented. It's
Speaker 4: sexually motivated and just don't know what to do or
Speaker 4: afraid to do something with a body. Others are motivated
Speaker 4: to look or do something, you know, very very minor sexually,
Speaker 4: and others have a twisted relationship between violence and sex
Speaker 4: and they get those two kind of confused in their mind,
Speaker 4: and so when they're enacting violence, there's a sexual component
Speaker 4: for them. The fourth type that I couldn't think of
Speaker 4: was the power a sort of serial killer who kills
Speaker 4: out of and needs for control. This is an individual
Speaker 4: who is out of control in almost all other areas
Speaker 4: of his or her life, and by killing somebody and
Speaker 4: taking control of them, they feel a certain amount of power.
Speaker 4: It compensates for what's lacking in their lives. And these
Speaker 4: type can be cannibals because the ultimate means of control
Speaker 4: to some people is actually ingesting the body of their victim.
Speaker 8: You talk about to back this up that on more
Speaker 8: than one occasion, the Zodiac compared the thrill of killing
Speaker 8: to the act of sex. So you say, despite their
Speaker 8: actually being this obvious sexually motivation, very much like you
Speaker 8: point out Son of Sam Berkowitz, where he admitted later
Speaker 8: that he went back to the crime scenes and masturbated.
Speaker 8: So these you classify the Zodiac as being sexually a
Speaker 8: motive sexually motivated killer. And what I was talking about,
Speaker 8: and you clarify that that there's motivations and then there's
Speaker 8: the basic classifications for the serial killing.
Speaker 4: Yeah, definitely the Zodiac there was a sexual component. And
Speaker 4: twice in his letters he compared the act of sex
Speaker 4: the act of violence to sex. In the confession letter
Speaker 4: he talked about he had his hand on the breast
Speaker 4: of Bates, but there was only one thing on his mind,
Speaker 4: and that was the committing of violence. Also in the
Speaker 4: solution to the four h eight cipher, he said he
Speaker 4: wrote that murder is better than getting your rocks off
Speaker 4: with a girl. Well, anybody who compares violence and killing
Speaker 4: to sex and favors and in favor of and falls
Speaker 4: in favor of violence, you know there's something going wrong
Speaker 4: mentally that early on in life they have somehow made
Speaker 4: the connection between sex and violence and they can't they
Speaker 4: can't separate the two. And this is probably the origin
Speaker 4: of a lot of bondage and other other types of
Speaker 4: sado masochism that that can take place in people's lives.
Speaker 4: But take into the ultimate extreme, you get a serial killer.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, what was the other What was the end
Speaker 4: of that question that you you asked?
Speaker 8: I think I just made a statement. You talk about, okay,
Speaker 8: to identify a killer's signature. This I thought was interesting,
Speaker 8: And you talk about the differentiation between m O and signature,
Speaker 8: and then you give examples of Jack the Ripper and
Speaker 8: just what they actively don't need to accomplish but yet
Speaker 8: they do. So tell us, as you do, explain this
Speaker 8: signature and m O and what that tells us about
Speaker 8: a killer.
Speaker 4: That signature, that's a that's a That's a huge differentiation,
Speaker 4: and it's it's frequently misunderstood. I don't know how many
Speaker 4: people I've talked to in the last year have said, oh,
Speaker 4: that can't be a zodiac murder because it doesn't fit them. Well,
Speaker 4: m is simply the means of the modus operandi in
Speaker 4: the Latin or sometimes changed the English's mode of operation,
Speaker 4: the way things are done, what type of weapons used,
Speaker 4: what time of day it occurred, that type of thing,
Speaker 4: any details about the crime, the way that the perpetrator
Speaker 4: carried it out is them. But the reality is that
Speaker 4: killers can change their m o M changes all the time.
Speaker 4: A killer can experiment to try to find the greatest
Speaker 4: amount of pleasure and do something different the next time
Speaker 4: because he thinks that there may be more pleasure involved.
Speaker 4: Another reason to change them is because they killers learn
Speaker 4: from experience. If they almost get caught, they say, gee,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to do it that way anymore. I
Speaker 4: almost got caught. I'm going to make a change, and
Speaker 4: so they change to become even more elusive. What doesn't
Speaker 4: change is the signature aspect. And the signature aspect has
Speaker 4: been defined as what an individual brings to the crime scene,
Speaker 4: what they carry out in an act in order to
Speaker 4: accomplish some psychological need within them. And the way that
Speaker 4: you find a signature act is to find out what
Speaker 4: was done at the crime scene that wasn't necessary for
Speaker 4: the commission of murder and was done in such a
Speaker 4: way that it increased the chance of this individual being caught. Obviously,
Speaker 4: intelligent serial killers don't want to get caught, and so
Speaker 4: they won't do something that makes it easier for the
Speaker 4: police to catch them. Well, if the killer is doing
Speaker 4: something that does make it easier for the killer to
Speaker 4: the police to catch them, it means they're doing something
Speaker 4: that is very important to them on some psychological level.
Speaker 4: They need to do this, they need to express themselves
Speaker 4: this way. Excellent example of that is letter writing. Not
Speaker 4: very many serial killers actually write letters to the police.
Speaker 4: There are a few that we're aware of, Son of
Speaker 4: Sam BTK and the Zodiac, but there are not a
Speaker 4: lot of serial killers who do that. The simple reason
Speaker 4: is because when you send a letter to the police,
Speaker 4: it makes you a whole lot easier to get caught.
Speaker 4: So what doesn't change from event to event is the signature.
Speaker 4: The signature is why the killer is actually doing this.
Speaker 4: The killer wants to kill somebody, but they want to
Speaker 4: get something out of it there and there's got to
Speaker 4: be some kind of psychological payoff for them to do it.
Speaker 4: So a number of signature acts that Zodiac did with
Speaker 4: letter writing, making phone calls after the crime scene in
Speaker 4: taunting the police. All of these tends make it easier
Speaker 4: for the police to catch them, but for some reason,
Speaker 4: the Zodiac needed to do them.
Speaker 8: You talk about we talk about them, and you talk
Speaker 8: about the signature, but you also talk about the FBI
Speaker 8: in two thousand and five that have this symposium. Now
Speaker 8: long time has elapsed from sixty six to seventy four,
Speaker 8: and you say all the information and the FBI is
Speaker 8: on the forefront of profiling. So tell us just a
Speaker 8: little bit about what happens at the symposium.
Speaker 4: What is the.
Speaker 8: What is the purpose of this symposium? Tell us a
Speaker 8: little bit more about this.
Speaker 4: Well, the FBI in early two thousands realized that there
Speaker 4: was a lot of independent work being done on serial killers.
Speaker 4: Law enforcement was encountering serio killers, profilers were gathering information
Speaker 4: on them on a more scholarly level. Psychologists were interviewing
Speaker 4: them and coming to terms with them as far as
Speaker 4: what motivated them, what type of people they were. So
Speaker 4: the FBI convened a symposium in two thousand and five
Speaker 4: to bring together a lot of professionals from disparate fields,
Speaker 4: bring them together to talk specifically about serial killers. And
Speaker 4: this enabled some lively discussions between psychologists and law enforcement agents.
Speaker 4: Between profilers and the general public and the media, it
Speaker 4: came to a lot of conclusions of just in coming
Speaker 4: to an understanding with one another of what they saw,
Speaker 4: what their perspective was. A lot of the scholarly work
Speaker 4: that had been done previous to that was done in
Speaker 4: such a way that the average patrolmen it didn't help
Speaker 4: them and didn't help them in their daily lives to
Speaker 4: recognize the serial killers. One of the big problems is
Speaker 4: that there's a whole lot of myths going around about
Speaker 4: zero killer, promoted by Hollywood primarily, but also a lot
Speaker 4: of talking heads on TV. Anybody can go on TV
Speaker 4: and say they're an expert in serial killers and start
Speaker 4: giving information on them, and so you have in the
Speaker 4: public's mind a lot of misinformation about who serial killers are.
Speaker 4: One of the myths is that serial killers are all
Speaker 4: white males. Well, somebody once said that anytime you try
Speaker 4: to say something definitive about serial killers, you will find
Speaker 4: somebody who's an exception. You know, all serial killers are straight,
Speaker 4: except for the ones who are gay. All serial killers
Speaker 4: come from a low associate economic status, except the ones
Speaker 4: who don't. All serial killers have terribly horrible, horrendous childhoods
Speaker 4: full with abuse, except the ones who don't. So there
Speaker 4: is a lot of misinformation.
Speaker 8: You say that you do conclude that the people are individuals, simple,
Speaker 8: simple as that.
Speaker 4: Serial killers. Well, yeah, I think the more I study psychology,
Speaker 4: the more I get to know people, the more I
Speaker 4: realize that it's difficult to put people in categories. My
Speaker 4: dad used to say there are two types of people.
Speaker 4: People who put others into categories, people don't.
Speaker 8: So you talk about too, that one of the things
Speaker 8: that's the most profound is with the Zodiac is his
Speaker 8: well developed ability to alter his m You say it's
Speaker 8: quite remarkable among killers, even unique, that his incredible ability
Speaker 8: to alter.
Speaker 4: His m O.
Speaker 8: And when we talk about them as well, you talk
Speaker 8: about the things that he does change quickly in from
Speaker 8: the first attack to six months later, he's doing things differently.
Speaker 8: So talk about some of the things that he does differently,
Speaker 8: including weapons and all of the things that you saw
Speaker 8: that was the change that he actively did, not accidentally,
Speaker 8: did purposely did well.
Speaker 4: I include the Bates murder. I know a lot of
Speaker 4: other people do not, but the first canonical murder was
Speaker 4: Lake Herman Road. And if you just look at the
Speaker 4: canonical attacks. The four attacks happened within the space of
Speaker 4: a year. So the Zodiac, as far as we can prove,
Speaker 4: was involved in the public evolved in murdering for less
Speaker 4: than a year. And yet in that course of time,
Speaker 4: he killed with different weapons. Each crime scene had a
Speaker 4: different weapon. He killed with the gun, he killed with
Speaker 4: a knife. He was involved in tying up victims. He's
Speaker 4: killed attacked victims that lover's lane areas. And then his
Speaker 4: last canonical victim was a cab driver in San Francisco.
Speaker 4: So the you know, what is his amo them oh,
Speaker 4: is that he was changing all the time, right, And
Speaker 4: there's a lot of theories and why he changed, but
Speaker 4: the simple fact is that he did change and changed drastically.
Speaker 8: When you decided to look at profiling the Zodiac, how
Speaker 8: did you want to approach this differently? Obviously so many
Speaker 8: people have looked at the zodiac itself, and obviously you're
Speaker 8: not the first person that thought they were you know
Speaker 8: that they could successfully profile. So what are the things
Speaker 8: that you thought were essential to bring into this in
Speaker 8: terms of information? And what was this again the slightly
Speaker 8: different or the somewhat different approach that you wanted to
Speaker 8: employ to be able to begin this profile and to
Speaker 8: be able to execute this profile.
Speaker 4: Well, Dan, the first question you asked me tonight was
Speaker 4: why three books. Profiling was not something that I was
Speaker 4: looking to get into. But as I studied the case,
Speaker 4: it became clear that I needed some more tools, tools
Speaker 4: that I didn't have. I spent time online discussing with
Speaker 4: other people and reading posts of other people and their thoughts,
Speaker 4: and a lot of people say, well, I think this,
Speaker 4: or I think that, and I think this, and my
Speaker 4: opinion is this. Well, everybody can throw out their opinions,
Speaker 4: but that's not really relevant to a situation. It's not
Speaker 4: really relevant to who the zodiac is. There's a lot
Speaker 4: of speculation. As I came to know the zodiac in
Speaker 4: my own mind and got to know the evidence, that
Speaker 4: realized that I needed some way to systematize it and
Speaker 4: say definitive things about zodiac. And the next obvious step
Speaker 4: was to research that and find out what the FBI
Speaker 4: had done and what other scholars had done as far
Speaker 4: as who are serial killers, what's the nature of serial killing?
Speaker 4: And based on what we do know about the Zodiac,
Speaker 4: what can we pretty constantly say about his personality, his characteristics. Obviously,
Speaker 4: you can look to earwitnesses and eyewitnesses and figure out
Speaker 4: what the Zodiac's stature is and what his voice sounded like.
Speaker 4: But when it comes to the psychological aspect of it,
Speaker 4: what has the FBI done to understand serial killers? And
Speaker 4: what did the Zodiac do with different crime scenes that
Speaker 4: screamed something about his personality. So that's what led to
Speaker 4: my interest in profiling. I am not a professional profiler,
Speaker 4: and so there may be other people who can do
Speaker 4: a much better job of profiling the Zodiac, and in fact,
Speaker 4: I'm sure they are there are. But I've worked very
Speaker 4: hard in Profiled to do a step by step analysis
Speaker 4: showing what the FBI has done with profiling, what they
Speaker 4: have concluded in a lot of their research, and step
Speaker 4: by step put together a profile based on the very
Speaker 4: specific actions that the Zodiac did at the different crime scenes.
Speaker 4: Whatever actions he did said something about him. The question
Speaker 4: is what does it say about him?
Speaker 8: We're going to talk about that in a second. But
Speaker 8: I wanted to ask this question when you were going
Speaker 8: to look at the letters, and I imagine, well, obviously
Speaker 8: you wanted to verify which letters were absolutely to be
Speaker 8: verified as Zodiac letters? And then from there, what was
Speaker 8: your approach? Because I think for me, this would be
Speaker 8: the most dangerous I think to make conclusions because just
Speaker 8: when you talk about deception and you talk about hidden
Speaker 8: meanings and the strategy of this obviously intelligent killer that's
Speaker 8: taunting police, what did you get from the FBI and
Speaker 8: your research before you went and looked at those letters,
Speaker 8: from what you saw, from what you learned from the FBI,
Speaker 8: how did you approach looking at those letters.
Speaker 4: I'm not sure exactly what you're getting at there, Dan,
Speaker 4: What did I learn? Probably the most important thing I
Speaker 4: did is I compared the Zodiac to other serial killers,
Speaker 4: other similar serial killers, to see they what we now
Speaker 4: know about those serial killers since they've been caught. The
Speaker 4: FBI has been doing profiles for a number of decades,
Speaker 4: and every time they do a profile and the killers
Speaker 4: later captured, they find out that there were errors. They
Speaker 4: have to try to figure out, well, where did we
Speaker 4: go wrong? What was the mistake? And I think I
Speaker 4: say about forty two times in the book there will
Speaker 4: necessarily be mistakes in my profile because a lot of
Speaker 4: it is my best guess based on the evidence that
Speaker 4: we see. Nevertheless, there are something that we can make
Speaker 4: a guess on, and the FBI and putting together profiles
Speaker 4: is very cautious to say, do not get hung up
Speaker 4: on one or two points, because these one or two
Speaker 4: points may be absolutely wrong. And we can look at
Speaker 4: previous profiles of Dennis Raider BTK or Gary Ridgeway the
Speaker 4: Green River killer find out that there were some horrendous,
Speaker 4: horrendously bad guesses on what types of people these were.
Speaker 4: So I was very open to the idea that, you know,
Speaker 4: some of my guesses are going to be wrong, but
Speaker 4: at least it gets something on paper, and probably most
Speaker 4: of what I say is correct, but you know, we
Speaker 4: won't know until until and if the zodiac has ever identified.
Speaker 8: What I thought I might get from you. Is Was
Speaker 8: there anything from the FBI in this behavioral unit, this
Speaker 8: all this work that they've done to say very much
Speaker 8: like now, how they would approach a potential confusession in
Speaker 8: terms of all the errors that they've had with confessions.
Speaker 8: Is there some I just thought there might be some
Speaker 8: psychological approach to viewing the letters in this case. But
Speaker 8: as you say that, you just compared other killers that
Speaker 8: would do the same thing. I guess contacting the police
Speaker 8: with letters is, like you say, fairly rare, isn't it.
Speaker 4: Though yes, so.
Speaker 8: In it itself, there's not much to conclude from the
Speaker 8: fact that they would be writing letters.
Speaker 4: Well, I think there there are a lot of conclusions
Speaker 4: that can be drawn. The question is are they correct
Speaker 4: or not? The one item that when somebody corresponds with
Speaker 4: the police sends a lot of letters, it tends to
Speaker 4: suggest that they're working alone, because serial killer teams don't
Speaker 4: tend to send notes to the police. They have each
Speaker 4: other to talk to. One notable exception that the only
Speaker 4: one I've ever been able to think of, is the
Speaker 4: Beltway Snipers. They actually left a note for the police
Speaker 4: at one of their crime scenes. But apart from that,
Speaker 4: I know of no Sarah killing team who has sent
Speaker 4: a letter to the police. They just don't need that correspondence.
Speaker 4: They don't need that attention, they don't need that recognition.
Speaker 4: It says something about the psychology of the individual to
Speaker 4: be writing to the police that they want recognition. And
Speaker 4: nobody did it better than the Zodiac because he demanded
Speaker 4: that his letters get published in the paper. He played
Speaker 4: media outlets off against one another, sending notes to different
Speaker 4: different newspapers, getting them to compete with one another. He
Speaker 4: became a media darling back in the late sixties in
Speaker 4: the San Francisco Bay area because he was getting front
Speaker 4: page coverage on a regular basis, the type of thing
Speaker 4: that many politicians and movie stars is dream of getting.
Speaker 4: He was able to get it quite easily, but of
Speaker 4: course there was the threat of murder and the actual
Speaker 4: murders that he had done that gave him this coverage.
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Speaker 8: Now you talk about the individual crime scenes in this book,
Speaker 8: and we talked about the kind of information that would
Speaker 8: be useful for building a profile, creating a profile based
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Speaker 8: to October thirtieth, nineteen sixty six and the murder of
Speaker 8: Sherry Joe Bates. As you say, you include that not
Speaker 8: everybody does. What tell us a little bit about this
Speaker 8: attack and what, in terms of your profile, you could
Speaker 8: determine from this attack?
Speaker 4: Yell, let me back up a little bit. I hunted
Speaker 4: with my first book of the trilogy, and that was
Speaker 4: designed to tell the story of the crimes and the
Speaker 4: police response to it in the communities sponsor as well.
Speaker 4: It took me four hundred pages to completely detail each
Speaker 4: one of the attacks and what took place as a
Speaker 4: result of the Zodiac serial killer, what the actual story was.
Speaker 4: I was able to provide some context, but I wasn't
Speaker 4: able to delve into each one of the crime scenes
Speaker 4: in the specificity that I would like to have done.
Speaker 4: So that's why in Profile, I revisited the crime scenes
Speaker 4: and go over them one by one from the perspective
Speaker 4: of a profiler to say what specifically was done and
Speaker 4: how that bears on the identity of the killer. But
Speaker 4: with respect to share Joe Bates in Riverside, California, October thirty,
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty six, what's interesting about that is that it
Speaker 4: seems to be a very early kill. For one thing,
Speaker 4: the killer showed up with a very tiny knife. It
Speaker 4: was only about you know, it was a It was
Speaker 4: a tiny kitchen knife the type of thing that was used,
Speaker 4: and Bates put up a huge struggle. They said, it
Speaker 4: looked like the grass was plowed where she was killed.
Speaker 4: There was such an incredible struggle. So the killer learned that,
Speaker 4: you know, a tiny blade is not something to bring
Speaker 4: to a scene to kill somebody. It could mean that
Speaker 4: the killer was not intending murder that night and was
Speaker 4: intending something else, and the knife was just there to threaten.
Speaker 4: So obviously later on it like Barry essay, he brings
Speaker 4: a foot long knife, having learned from that experience. The
Speaker 4: other was that he disabled a car apparently to have
Speaker 4: access to her. And you know what did that say
Speaker 4: in future murders he would kill somebody. He would attack
Speaker 4: couples in their car or when they had come just
Speaker 4: getting out of their car with a weapon, so that
Speaker 4: he didn't have to go through the trouble of of
Speaker 4: the rules of disabling a car and all of that entail.
Speaker 4: So that could be something else that he learned from
Speaker 4: the experience.
Speaker 8: So from that attack What is the difference in the
Speaker 8: next attack, in the Herman attack, what is the difference.
Speaker 8: You talk about acceleration, you talk about change. What is
Speaker 8: the differences from that from one attack to the next
Speaker 8: other than the bigger knife?
Speaker 4: Yeah, a killing. A couple of years later at Lake
Speaker 4: Herman Road, he shows up with a gun this time
Speaker 4: and guns down the victims. Maybe he's trying something different,
Speaker 4: Maybe he's hoping to derive more pleasure of using a gun,
Speaker 4: or just maybe it's easier to dispatch them more quickly
Speaker 4: and be able to get away more easily than with
Speaker 4: using a knife. The fact that it's done so many,
Speaker 4: undreds of miles away Riverside to Valeo is quite a
Speaker 4: distance from southern California to northern California. What's interesting is
Speaker 4: that it's not until this attack that the Zodiac starts
Speaker 4: counting his murders. He doesn't mention Riverside over the next
Speaker 4: few attacks and his correspondence with the police and with
Speaker 4: what he wrote on the car door at Lake Barriessa,
Speaker 4: he distanced himself from that. And is that because it
Speaker 4: wasn't a Zodiac kill or is that because something happened
Speaker 4: at that that makes it more obvious that he is responsible,
Speaker 4: and that maybe he made a mistake and wanted to
Speaker 4: not be associated with both southern and northern California, or
Speaker 4: he wrote something in one of his letters that can
Speaker 4: clue us into who he is. It just kind of
Speaker 4: interesting that he started all over and then from then
Speaker 4: on numbered based on Lake Herman Road, and it wasn't
Speaker 4: until the connection was made in the press that the
Speaker 4: Zodiac wrote a letter or taking credit for the murder
Speaker 4: in Riverside.
Speaker 8: You talk about this killer learning as he goes it
Speaker 8: gets more experienced, and you talk about him losing control
Speaker 8: of the situation when Betty Lou and Faraday try to escape.
Speaker 8: When you examine all these subsequent crimes, what does he
Speaker 8: learn again about control? What does he how does he
Speaker 8: change things to be able to not lose control?
Speaker 4: Well, we know from Seria Killers that control is an issue,
Speaker 4: and in fact, we believe the Zodiac is a power
Speaker 4: assert of serial killer because of his need for control
Speaker 4: and using the word control in his letters and the
Speaker 4: way he was always involved in a blitz attack that
Speaker 4: followed some kind of ruse. So with Bates, he did
Speaker 4: not have control of the It took several minutes to
Speaker 4: attack her, she put up a huge struggle. There was
Speaker 4: probably blood all over the place. There was probably he
Speaker 4: may have injured himself in the process. He may have
Speaker 4: at different times thought that this wasn't going to work
Speaker 4: out and he wasn't going to be able to kill her,
Speaker 4: that he didn't expect her to fight back with a
Speaker 4: ferocity that she did. What happened at Lake Herman Road
Speaker 4: is he pulled out a gun and fired at them,
Speaker 4: two young people that he was attacking, so there was
Speaker 4: no wonder about who was in control. However, even in
Speaker 4: this process, Betty lou Jensen was able to run away
Speaker 4: from the car and the Zodiac had to shoot her
Speaker 4: in the back five times before she fell down. It's
Speaker 4: quite possible that the following crime scene, fourth of July,
Speaker 4: around midnight nineteen sixty nine, the Zodiac decided to kill
Speaker 4: the couple while they remained in the car to even
Speaker 4: be more in control, but they didn't even have the
Speaker 4: chance of running away. So this seems to be between
Speaker 4: those three crime scenes a certain amount of progression, where
Speaker 4: the Zodiac wanted to be in absolute control and where
Speaker 4: he saw a lack of control, he changed what he
Speaker 4: did for the next attack.
Speaker 8: You talk about the Lake Herman attack, and there were
Speaker 8: no letter, no known letters or phone calls in the
Speaker 8: following hours or days. And so you say that those
Speaker 8: are common things that happened previous and future. What in
Speaker 8: this do you have any ideas why that might have been.
Speaker 4: There's been no end of speculation on that. Why is
Speaker 4: that that no letters, no phone calls followed that attack
Speaker 4: and every other attack there was a letter from the
Speaker 4: Zodiac approximately four weeks later, without exception, approximately four weeks
Speaker 4: later there was a letter in the mail to the police.
Speaker 4: Why not at this time? That's an open question for
Speaker 4: the case.
Speaker 8: Right now? What does he do? I mean, he's had
Speaker 8: a hard time on these murders, so how does he
Speaker 8: alter things? And let's talk about the relation of the
Speaker 8: letters in terms of when these letters occur. We will
Speaker 8: go through what's contained in those letters, but when does
Speaker 8: the trying to get to the for our audience to
Speaker 8: understand what is the relation with those letters and those crimes.
Speaker 8: What is reaction and what is him creating a reaction?
Speaker 8: What is reactionary and what is him trying to look
Speaker 8: for a reaction.
Speaker 4: Through his writing? Again, that's that's complete speculation. Is the
Speaker 4: Zodiac reacting to something at the crime scene. Is he
Speaker 4: looking to accomplish something in the public, Is he trying
Speaker 4: to communicate something? Is he trying to illicit fear? Does
Speaker 4: he get off on the fear that other people have?
Speaker 4: You know, Charles Manson has It's been said that he
Speaker 4: got off on fear. He liked, he enjoyed seeing fear
Speaker 4: in other people, and so he would do all kinds
Speaker 4: of crazy things to elicit fear. Maybe that was behind
Speaker 4: the Zodiac actions. At this point, there's just a lot
Speaker 4: of speculation.
Speaker 8: Now, what is his next attack and what is different
Speaker 8: about that next attack?
Speaker 4: He's referring to the Blue Rock Saw attack after Lake
Speaker 4: Heerman Road. Yeah, that surprisingly, it was another Lover's Lane area.
Speaker 4: It's only a couple miles drive from Lake Kerman Road
Speaker 4: and it was only what seven months later, And there
Speaker 4: was some surprising actions. Surprising differences. Number one, he killed
Speaker 4: them before they got out of the car, which didn't
Speaker 4: happen at Lake Herman Road. Mike Majeaux survived as another
Speaker 4: change that I'm sure the killer did not anticipate. He
Speaker 4: gunned them down when he heard Mike Michaux scream. He
Speaker 4: returned to the car and shot the couple some more,
Speaker 4: two more shots into each victim, and yet Mike Michau
Speaker 4: still survived, so that probably it listened an awful lot
Speaker 4: of fear from the Zodiac when he realized that one
Speaker 4: of his victims had survived, one who was able to
Speaker 4: give at least a vague description of the killer. The
Speaker 4: other differences, it appears that the Zodiac pulled into the park,
Speaker 4: parked behind the couple, drove away, and then came back.
Speaker 4: There's no certain it's not positive that it was the
Speaker 4: Zodiac who was there the first time. But the the
Speaker 4: ruse for this attack was he pretended to be a
Speaker 4: police officer. When he pulled up behind them, he turned
Speaker 4: on a light that was a spotlight, and they thought
Speaker 4: that it was a police officer, so they started a
Speaker 4: rummage for their driver's licenses, and the Zodiac showed up
Speaker 4: at the window right beside them and started a fire.
Speaker 4: Interesting interesting rust that he used. Serira killers have been
Speaker 4: known to pretend to be police officers. Ted Bundy pretended
Speaker 4: to be a police officer and would say to a
Speaker 4: young woman, would you come with me please, taking control
Speaker 4: of the situation and intimating that either she was in
Speaker 4: trouble or whatever, and it caught the woman off guard
Speaker 4: and led her defenses down. Dismay been behind the Zodiac's
Speaker 4: idea of pretending to be a police officer, but it
Speaker 4: was very simple, using a high powered flashlight, and it
Speaker 4: was very effective. You talk about the big change after
Speaker 4: this one was the phone call that he made to
Speaker 4: the latest police department follows about forty minutes later, about
Speaker 4: twelve forty on July the fifth, And the question is
Speaker 4: what did he why do that? He's written letters in
Speaker 4: the past, and here he is making a phone call.
Speaker 4: What is the added payoff to him? Though he may
Speaker 4: have made a phone call following the Bates in the
Speaker 4: confession letter, the writer claimed to have made some type
Speaker 4: of phone call to the police.
Speaker 8: You talk about too, that the cunning preparation part of
Speaker 8: Zodiac too was that he coordinated a loud national holiday
Speaker 8: July first fourth with damask his gunfire.
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, and it was great and on purpose. He
Speaker 4: may have been extremely creative to think, gee, there's going
Speaker 4: to be fireworks going off all day or all evening long.
Speaker 4: If I had gotten down a couple, nobody's going to notice.
Speaker 4: In fact, nobody did notice. There was a witness eight
Speaker 4: hundred feet away who heard the gunfire, thought it was
Speaker 4: just an extra loud fireworks and just ignored it and
Speaker 4: didn't contact the police. It wasn't until he found out
Speaker 4: about the murders that he realized that he had heard that.
Speaker 8: Now, let's talk a little bit about these letters and
Speaker 8: the timing of these letters, and also what is contained
Speaker 8: in some of those letters that you think, again beyond speculation,
Speaker 8: that you can come to some conclusions on what's contained
Speaker 8: in those letters about his behavior, motivations, and just in
Speaker 8: general about the Zodiac. Tell us about the first letter.
Speaker 4: The first letter, going all the way back to the
Speaker 4: confession letter. Yes, that was in nineteen sixty six, a
Speaker 4: month following the murder of Bates and Riverside. Two copies
Speaker 4: of the confession letter showed up, one to the police
Speaker 4: and one to depress. The Zodiacs seem to exude a
Speaker 4: certain amount of intellect and cunning in sending these letters.
Speaker 4: Some people have said that these two letters couldn't be
Speaker 4: done by the Zodiac because they're too artistic, and they're
Speaker 4: they're typed, and all other Zodiac letters are handwritten. They're
Speaker 4: kind of messily scribbled, and they show when insane killer
Speaker 4: or somebody completely mentally disturbed, how could the same person
Speaker 4: type a poetic type letter. Well, it could be just
Speaker 4: the opposite. That the Zodiac was experimenting with different ways
Speaker 4: of communicating with the police, and after sending the confession letters, realized,
Speaker 4: you know, I explained a little bit too much about
Speaker 4: who I am by sending this letter. Some of the
Speaker 4: tactics that he used to cover up his activities was
Speaker 4: he wrote, he typed in all capital letters. Well, what
Speaker 4: difference does that make? Well, if you type in all caps,
Speaker 4: you provide less information to the police, because if you
Speaker 4: capitalize some letters and not others, you can be more
Speaker 4: distinctive in who you are and what you're saying. In
Speaker 4: the same way, he wrote a lot of short letters
Speaker 4: and used very little punctuation beyond the period. All of
Speaker 4: these go to show somebody who is trying to say something,
Speaker 4: but trying to say it in such a way that
Speaker 4: the police won't figure out idiosyncrasies of that individual. Well,
Speaker 4: if the Zodiac is so cunning in the first letter,
Speaker 4: maybe the letters following that show a killer who is
Speaker 4: very cunning in dumbing down his letters and you know,
Speaker 4: reducing the big words in reducing punctuation and showing that
Speaker 4: he can't spell, or pretending that he can't spell. All
Speaker 4: of this going to show that the Zodiac is a
Speaker 4: lot more intelligent than we've been giving him credit for.
Speaker 8: Did John Douglas take a look at this letter or
Speaker 8: any other letters you talk about just at the beginning
Speaker 8: of the case, but tell us a little bit about
Speaker 8: his participation a fall at looking at this being the
Speaker 8: famous profiler, Well.
Speaker 4: Douglas writes in his book The Cases That Haunt Us
Speaker 4: the case was put in front of him when he
Speaker 4: was a profiler back in the nineteen seventies. He didn't
Speaker 4: know why it was given to him, and he started
Speaker 4: to work on it a little bit, and then sometime
Speaker 4: later it was pulled away from him and they said no,
Speaker 4: go and work on something else. He didn't know why
Speaker 4: it was given to him and why it was taken away,
Speaker 4: so he ever came to the point where he did
Speaker 4: a really good profile. I'm a little bit disappointed with
Speaker 4: Douglas's work in The Cases that Haunt Us on the
Speaker 4: Zodiac because he didn't go to original sources, and a
Speaker 4: lot of the source material that he's working with turns
Speaker 4: out is not as correct or not as accurate as
Speaker 4: it could be for him to put together a profile.
Speaker 4: He was relying more on secondary sources of what other
Speaker 4: people had written about the case rather than understanding the
Speaker 4: actual case files. So in that way it's a little
Speaker 4: bit disturbing but a little bit unsatisfying. But at the
Speaker 4: same time he makes the point that profilers should go
Speaker 4: and take a close look at the Bates case because
Speaker 4: he had no trouble accepting it as being a Zodiac murder,
Speaker 4: the same as that I do, based on a lot
Speaker 4: of the information gathered at the scene and based on
Speaker 4: information in the letters that the Zodiac wrote. But he
Speaker 4: said profilers should take a close look at that case
Speaker 4: in two Killer because the Zodiac was responsible for it,
Speaker 4: and yet he didn't take credit for it. He ignored
Speaker 4: it and started discounting in Northern California. Then when it
Speaker 4: was attributed to him, then he went and took credit
Speaker 4: for it. So first he doesn't take credit for it,
Speaker 4: and then he does take credit for it. On an
Speaker 4: emotional level, something is going on there that the Zodiac
Speaker 4: is proud of his work, but there may be something
Speaker 4: there that says more about him and who he is
Speaker 4: that he didn't want to let out initially.
Speaker 8: Yeah, you say that there's something in the fact that
Speaker 8: he wanted to conceal. It seems he wanted to conceal
Speaker 8: something specific about the attack in Riverside.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, he didn't mention it. The first letters in
Speaker 4: Northern California at the end of July nineteen sixty nine,
Speaker 4: he referred to the fourth of July murder at lu
Speaker 4: Ark Springs and the murder which he called last Christmas
Speaker 4: December twenty, nineteen sixty eight, So why start with that?
Speaker 4: And then following the murder at Lake Barrissa he listed
Speaker 4: his attacks again, beginning with December twenty, nineteen sixty eight.
Speaker 4: Why is she running from Riverside?
Speaker 8: You say, too, is interesting his claim of a revenge
Speaker 8: as his motive for killing Shrry Joe Bates. But you
Speaker 8: say it just may have been another piece of his staging.
Speaker 8: Tell us why you might think that and what made
Speaker 8: you believe that.
Speaker 4: Well, if he's an intelligent killer and he just killed
Speaker 4: somebody because he was upset with her, she wouldn't go
Speaker 4: on a date with him, and so he kills her, Well,
Speaker 4: how many dates did Cherry Joe Bates turn down? It
Speaker 4: would be would be too difficult to narrow down who
Speaker 4: this individual was. If the killer was being extremely deceptive,
Speaker 4: if he was from out of town, if he didn't
Speaker 4: know Cherry Joe Bates had never met her, he could
Speaker 4: claim that he knew her. He could claim that he
Speaker 4: had asked her out on a date and she'd refused him,
Speaker 4: and that would force the police officers to start interviewing
Speaker 4: all of the people who had asked her out on
Speaker 4: dates and completely lead them astray. So it could have
Speaker 4: been a clever means of staging. What's interesting is that
Speaker 4: the zodiac seems to give quite a few different types
Speaker 4: of provides, quite a few different motives throughout his letters
Speaker 4: of why he killed. And you know, after a while
Speaker 4: you start to realize these and he start to think,
Speaker 4: you know, these aren't true. He's just throwing stuff in
Speaker 4: seeing what will stick, leading the police to run around
Speaker 4: in thirty different directions.
Speaker 8: When you're looking at all of these letters, and as
Speaker 8: you do, you make conclusions as to what he's trying
Speaker 8: to say in these letters. And you talk about the
Speaker 8: him writing on the Barry Esa Lake on the car,
Speaker 8: what changes in his letters, and again you talk about
Speaker 8: his moo changing and him trying to be deceptive with police.
Speaker 8: Does he do the same in the letters? Does he
Speaker 8: try to change up things in the letters? We just
Speaker 8: talked about talking about revenge in Sherry Joe Bates case,
Speaker 8: but in the other cases, is he consistent in any way?
Speaker 8: In these letters.
Speaker 4: He's consistent in that he keeps changing. It's quite interesting
Speaker 4: to note the progression from letter to letter, and I
Speaker 4: think that's an area that hasn't been delved into an
Speaker 4: awful lot. You know, TV shows and documentaries or whatever.
Speaker 4: They get excited about this item or that item. It
Speaker 4: takes a little bit more work to look at progressions
Speaker 4: and to see what's happening with the letters. It seems
Speaker 4: like the Zodiac is frequently responding to events around him,
Speaker 4: and that kind of says something about who he is.
Speaker 4: What does he take note of, what is important to him?
Speaker 4: And what are the police doing that is causing these responses.
Speaker 4: The best example I can think of is the more
Speaker 4: material letter sent in early August of nineteen sixty nine.
Speaker 4: Following the three part letters of the end of July
Speaker 4: sixty nine. The police went on TV and said, well,
Speaker 4: we're not really sure that these letters are from the killer.
Speaker 4: This was the three letters that had the three part
Speaker 4: cipher involved the Z four or eight cipher. Obviously this
Speaker 4: was done by the Zodiac. He provided information known only
Speaker 4: to him and the police. But they realized that he
Speaker 4: was trying to prove himself. And I think what they
Speaker 4: were doing is playing a little bit of a mind
Speaker 4: game with him and saying maybe he was trying a
Speaker 4: little bit too hard to prove his involvement. So they
Speaker 4: tried to see how how far he would go. So
Speaker 4: they went on the TV and said, well, we're not
Speaker 4: really sure that this is from the Zodiac, and it
Speaker 4: got picked up in the papers as well. The Zodiac
Speaker 4: responded quite quickly. A couple days later the next letter
Speaker 4: arrived and the Zodiac spent a considerable amount of time,
Speaker 4: three pages worth in fact, attempting to prove his involvement
Speaker 4: in both of those two murders, to both of those
Speaker 4: two crime scenes. And so the Zodiac was responding to
Speaker 4: police rather than he was following rather than leading, and
Speaker 4: that says something about his character. He wasn't he wasn't
Speaker 4: so set on a mission that he was doing that
Speaker 4: he was carrying it out regardless of whatever feedback he got.
Speaker 4: He was listening to feedback. He cared about what other
Speaker 4: people were saying and responded to that. Years later, the
Speaker 4: FBI began to use that as a regular approach of
Speaker 4: dealing with material killers. Part of the work of profilers
Speaker 4: is not just making a list of attributes of a
Speaker 4: potential unknown suspect, but also what to do, how to
Speaker 4: negotiate with somebody. If somebody has caught, what to say
Speaker 4: to them? In what way do you interrogate them? Because
Speaker 4: of based on their unique psychology, some tactics will work
Speaker 4: and others will not. So a profiler will say, well,
Speaker 4: if you interview this person, ask him about this topic
Speaker 4: or treat him this way, and you will be more
Speaker 4: likely to get the information that you want.
Speaker 8: When does he reveal himself as a zodiac? This is
Speaker 8: a develops as well. He doesn't sign tell us a
Speaker 8: little bit about the emergence of him wanting to be
Speaker 8: called a zodiac.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's two letters that I just mentioned, the three
Speaker 4: part letters, the three part letters with a cross circle.
Speaker 4: And the police kind of saw it that the killer
Speaker 4: was signing off with a cross circle. What does it mean?
Speaker 4: Why is he using a They just assumed it was
Speaker 4: a gun sight because it's attacks to that point that
Speaker 4: they were aware of it had taken place because of
Speaker 4: had been done by gun. But when the more material
Speaker 4: letter came, that's the first letter that began with the
Speaker 4: killer's iconic phrase, this is the Zodiac speaking. From that
Speaker 4: moment on, the killer has been called the Zodiac. Interesting
Speaker 4: facet of the case is that nobody knows for sure
Speaker 4: what exactly that means, where the killer got the inspiration
Speaker 4: for that name, and what that name means to him.
Speaker 4: Every other serial killer, and there have been hundreds of
Speaker 4: them who have been given specific names by the press
Speaker 4: or in a few cases, by the killer themselves, we
Speaker 4: know what the name means. We know why they have
Speaker 4: the mean why they have that name. Hillside Strangler or
Speaker 4: Atlanta child murderer or Green River Killer, or Jack the
Speaker 4: Ripper or the Cliff, the Yorkshire Ripper, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 4: We know what the name means. We have to take
Speaker 4: a step back and realize, here's the guy who gave
Speaker 4: himself a name, and we don't know why the name,
Speaker 4: what the name means, and why that is his name
Speaker 4: right exactly.
Speaker 8: You talk about the letters sent to the Riverside Police Department,
Speaker 8: being unique in that it was the last Zodiac letter
Speaker 8: sent directly to law enforcement. You say, after that he
Speaker 8: goes and bypasses or deals with law enforcement indirectly, and
Speaker 8: newspaper editors would be the recipient of almost all of
Speaker 8: his remaining letters. What is the difference from that letter
Speaker 8: to what the media gets? How is there was a change?
Speaker 8: What's that change?
Speaker 4: Again? That's another change to m O. The question are raised,
Speaker 4: why make that change? It would suggest that the Zodiac
Speaker 4: has a strong need for recognition for controlling the press.
Speaker 4: I mean, it's well known that serial killers follow their
Speaker 4: own press. Many of them even attempt to control their
Speaker 4: own press. None has done so to the extent of
Speaker 4: the Zodiac, who not only control his own press, but
Speaker 4: often wrote his own press by sending letters. He obviously
Speaker 4: was upset with the police and sent letters to the
Speaker 4: police and taunting them, but probably went with news media
Speaker 4: because that's where that's where he could communicate the best.
Speaker 4: If he sent something to the police, they could just
Speaker 4: keep fix it and never reveal it to the public.
Speaker 4: But if he sent letters to the press, he knew
Speaker 4: that he could manipulate the press into publishing his letters.
Speaker 8: When he writes in the confession letter I'm not sick,
Speaker 8: I'm in sane. Is there very much more of that
Speaker 8: type of talk, because, like you say, he really doesn't
Speaker 8: talk very much about himself directly in letters.
Speaker 4: Yeah. Frequently in his letters he begins sentences with I am.
Speaker 4: Which is quite interesting is he identifies himself quite a
Speaker 4: bit in quite diverse ways. I am the murderer, I
Speaker 4: am the killer, I am you know, in various other ways.
Speaker 4: But calling himself crazy, that that's kind of unusual. In fact,
Speaker 4: some people have even speculated that it was a typo
Speaker 4: and that the zodec meant to say, I am not sick,
Speaker 4: i am not insane, but that will not stop the game.
Speaker 4: It seems to make more sense than the logic of
Speaker 4: the the sentence to say, you know, I'm not sick,
Speaker 4: I'm not insane, the game will continue, whereas if he
Speaker 4: says he is insane, but the game will continue. It
Speaker 4: it leads some questions. Generally, Sariah killers don't want themselves
Speaker 4: to be known as crazy unless they're trying to put
Speaker 4: forth some kind of insanity defense and lessen their jail
Speaker 4: time or less or get out of the death penalty.
Speaker 8: The Paul Stein murder is much different, and people have
Speaker 8: speculated why this is much why he would choose a
Speaker 8: much different murder, and it seems like a different motivation.
Speaker 8: And then he writes a letter right after that. Can
Speaker 8: you tell us a little bit about what he writes
Speaker 8: after and what can be gleaned from that if anything.
Speaker 4: Well, the previous three crime scenes were involving couples, and
Speaker 4: it was stated in the press that the killer looks
Speaker 4: like he's interested in killing couples. Maybe he gets off
Speaker 4: on killing couples. That may have been the impetus for
Speaker 4: the Zodiac to say, Okay, I think I'm the killer
Speaker 4: of couples. I can kill a cab driver. It was
Speaker 4: in some ways it was a brilliant strategy because he
Speaker 4: could kill somebody. If he had been caught right afterwards,
Speaker 4: he would have been charged with a cab robbery that
Speaker 4: went wrong. They'd never know that, they'd never suspect that
Speaker 4: he was actually the Zodiac because there's nothing to connect
Speaker 4: that crime scenes of the other murders that took place
Speaker 4: in the North Bay. So there may be have been
Speaker 4: that subterfuge involved to try to not be identified with it.
Speaker 4: Right previous two attack scenes a male survived. He may have,
Speaker 4: for whatever reason, felt like he had to prove that
Speaker 4: he could kill a male, so he went and found
Speaker 4: a mail all by himself. The broad theory at this
Speaker 4: point is that he was wanted to move within the
Speaker 4: confines of San Francisco to increase his coverage, increase his press.
Speaker 4: He was getting some press for killing in the North Bay,
Speaker 4: but to actually kill within San Francisco, well, you know,
Speaker 4: that's the next obvious step in the development of his
Speaker 4: of his publicity and his is his recognition. So that's
Speaker 4: why he killed within San Francisco. And to kill somebody
Speaker 4: in San Francisco would have been rather difficult to find
Speaker 4: a couple who was by themselves in the Lover's Lane
Speaker 4: area and not get caught. The easiest way to kill
Speaker 4: somebody in San Francisco, in his opinion, may have been
Speaker 4: get a cab driver, He'll go wherever you want him
Speaker 4: to go, kill him, and then flee from the scene.
Speaker 4: The letter following that was a little bit It introduced
Speaker 4: the topic of he wanted to take on a bus
Speaker 4: and he wanted to set up a competition between himself
Speaker 4: and the SSDD. Where that came from, we can just
Speaker 4: speculate at this point, obviously he wanted to get more attention.
Speaker 4: The threats to school buses caused a panic throughout the
Speaker 4: Bay Area, where police officers followed buses, people rode shotgun
Speaker 4: and buses. Bus drivers were given specific instructions what to
Speaker 4: do if somebody opens fire on the bus. I Napa
Speaker 4: County planes went overhead and followed buses and kind of
Speaker 4: looked for things from up above. It was it was
Speaker 4: really a time of turmoil for the Bay Area from
Speaker 4: the people that I've talked to that it's what everybody
Speaker 4: was talking about. It was what everybody was scared of.
Speaker 4: It was an incredible threat, and that was very effective
Speaker 4: because he caused the terror they apparently was trying to cause,
Speaker 4: and nothing came of it. It was a It was
Speaker 4: a threat that was never carried out, and that tends
Speaker 4: to be typical of serial killers. They don't attack directly
Speaker 4: what it is that's bothering them. They don't carry through
Speaker 4: on a threat that they make. They kill somebody who
Speaker 4: is symbolic, and they kill somebody who who they haven't threatened.
Speaker 4: They kill somebody just out of the blue, so that
Speaker 4: there's nothing to connect them to their victim.
Speaker 8: With all the bluster and obvious excitement that he had
Speaker 8: that he had created, with the panic and the curiosity
Speaker 8: with the ciphers. Basically, what did what did everybody or
Speaker 8: anyone get from the cipher?
Speaker 4: What was.
Speaker 8: The most profound thing they could get out of the cipher? Overall?
Speaker 4: That's a good question. What does that say about the
Speaker 4: type of person who uses ciphers and not only uses
Speaker 4: ciphers but sent four of them in four different mailings,
Speaker 4: while four different groups of mailings to the police and
Speaker 4: the pressed. The speculation is that he had something to communicate,
Speaker 4: but he wanted it to be taken very seriously. One
Speaker 4: way to do that is to say, well, you know,
Speaker 4: I'll let you know this, but you have to work
Speaker 4: really hard to find out what it is that I'm
Speaker 4: going to tell you, kind of like a little kid
Speaker 4: who runs into the room and says I have a secret,
Speaker 4: and the adults say what is it? What is it? Well,
Speaker 4: it's really important, and this child is letting you know
Speaker 4: that this is a very important thing that he wants
Speaker 4: to say. So he doesn't just come out and say it.
Speaker 4: He has to get people to show that they're interested
Speaker 4: and really want to know it, so that may be
Speaker 4: something to do with a cipher, and a cipher says
Speaker 4: something about the skills and background of the killer. The
Speaker 4: police spent a lot of time looking into military people,
Speaker 4: people who had code training because the Zodiac skill in codes.
Speaker 4: There was some skill there. You obviously wasn't a brilliant coder,
Speaker 4: or the work didn't reveal him as a brilliant coder,
Speaker 4: but some experience and some interest in coding was obviously necessary.
Speaker 8: Now you have a couple more letters, the more material letter,
Speaker 8: and you talk about the ciphers. But we've got to
Speaker 8: get to the point where you take all of this information,
Speaker 8: all of this information and come up with a different profile,
Speaker 8: a more sophisticated profile, a more informed profile than people
Speaker 8: have done before. So can you give us a little
Speaker 8: bit again of the profile that you came up with
Speaker 8: as a conclusion from the letters and from the crime
Speaker 8: scenes themselves, and everything that you've done in terms of
Speaker 8: looking at what has been done before comparing.
Speaker 4: To all the serial killers.
Speaker 8: Tell us just give us a little indication of the
Speaker 8: profile that you have come up with based on some
Speaker 8: of those things.
Speaker 4: Well, as you know, chapter forty in profile is my
Speaker 4: profile of the Zodiac serial killer. Prior to that, I
Speaker 4: delve into each one of the letters, in each one
Speaker 4: of the crime scenes in considerable detail, evaluating what each
Speaker 4: of those says about the killer, both with respect to
Speaker 4: what exactly he did or what he wrote, and how
Speaker 4: there was a progression and a story being told from
Speaker 4: letter to letter and crime scene to crime scene. That's
Speaker 4: all my background work. That's the math teacher tells you
Speaker 4: to show your work. That's all the work that I
Speaker 4: put together, showing what I have determined about the serial
Speaker 4: killer based on his letters and on his attack, and
Speaker 4: pull it together into chapter forty, which is a considerable
Speaker 4: list of visual details, but also behavioral and psychological details
Speaker 4: of the soul of the killer based on what it
Speaker 4: was he has done and what he has written. Necessarily,
Speaker 4: some of it is speculative. I'm making guesses. A lot
Speaker 4: of it is based on FBI work in what they've
Speaker 4: done with profiles and the types of classifications. I'm back
Speaker 4: in the seventies, Robert Wrestler and others went into prisons
Speaker 4: and interviewed criminals and interviewed serial killers and tried to
Speaker 4: learn from serial killers about serial killers. They found that
Speaker 4: a lot of them were very willing to talk and
Speaker 4: share their experiences. They were in prison, they weren't going anywhere.
Speaker 4: All their appeals have been expended. It's interesting to sit
Speaker 4: down with law enforcement agencies and talk about something that's
Speaker 4: very important to them. And so they were able to
Speaker 4: share about what they did, why they did it, how
Speaker 4: they carried it out, what some of their decision making
Speaker 4: processes were. And from that, the FBI was able to
Speaker 4: learn a lot about serial killers and their motivations and
Speaker 4: the way they did things, and they did a lot
Speaker 4: of statistical analysis of different types of killers. Wrestler made
Speaker 4: the distinction between organized killers and disorganized killers based on
Speaker 4: the crime scene that they laughed in, the organization, the
Speaker 4: patterns of their thinking. Wrestler noted in a lot of
Speaker 4: his research and interviewing people that serial killers who were
Speaker 4: organized tend to use alcohol more before, during, and after
Speaker 4: a crime, whereas disorganized serial killers tend to use prescription
Speaker 4: medication or illicit street drugs. It's not one hundred percent correlation,
Speaker 4: but there was a greater chance that's the way they performed.
Speaker 4: So Zodiac, as we have gotten to know him and
Speaker 4: evaluated his crime scenes and his relationship with the press
Speaker 4: and the police. Has been described as a hyper organized
Speaker 4: serial killer. He is among the most organized serial killers
Speaker 4: that have ever been noted. He put an awful lot
Speaker 4: of work into not getting caught. He put an awful
Speaker 4: lot of work into misleading the police. In fact, the
Speaker 4: six page letter enumerates numerous ways in which he worked
Speaker 4: very hard to mislead the police and misdirect any investigation
Speaker 4: into him. So, based on that relationship i'd been, I
Speaker 4: made the guess, well, it's more likely that the Zodiac
Speaker 4: used alcohol than prescription drugs or street drugs. But research
Speaker 4: into organized and disorganized serial killers also makes the point
Speaker 4: that there's nothing that either one of them can reveal
Speaker 4: the characteristics of another one in one or two points.
Speaker 4: So maybe the Zodiac did use street drugs. We don't
Speaker 4: know for sure.
Speaker 8: Is there anything in the profile that suggests a reason
Speaker 8: for not ever coming forward again with the press, or
Speaker 8: why ending suddenly and never having contact with the press again.
Speaker 4: Then no end of speculation why the Zodiac disappeared. He
Speaker 4: actually first transformed into a serial killer who was apparently
Speaker 4: no longer killing but writing letters. He changed from a
Speaker 4: who wrote a few letters to a prolific letter writer
Speaker 4: who may not have killed again, and their speculation of
Speaker 4: the why that happened. A lot of people have said
Speaker 4: he got too scared, that's why he He almost got
Speaker 4: caught after the killing of Paul Stein, and that scared
Speaker 4: him sober and made him stop and began writing letters alone. Well,
Speaker 4: once he was not killing any longer and writing letters,
Speaker 4: the letters became less and less fluential. People started ignoring
Speaker 4: them because there were no new murders who cares what
Speaker 4: he said. And at the same time, the letters were
Speaker 4: becoming more and more bizarre, more and more abstract ideas
Speaker 4: and weird introductions to the case. Whereas people were saying
Speaker 4: this guy is psychologically degenerating or whatever he was doing,
Speaker 4: it was not being comprehended by the public. So at
Speaker 4: some point the Zodiac seems to have said, well, I'm
Speaker 4: not going to do this anymore. I'm taking my ball
Speaker 4: and I'm going home. I'm stopping. And in the Exorcist
Speaker 4: letter he used the word suicide in the quote from
Speaker 4: the Nakado. So if it's been interpreted that maybe the
Speaker 4: Zodiac committed suicide or maybe it was just some type
Speaker 4: of metaphorical suicide. Right, So.
Speaker 8: It sounds like at the end of this there's at
Speaker 8: least as many questions as there is answers. Despite I mean,
Speaker 8: you have an extensive, comprehensive profile in this book. But
Speaker 8: at the same time there there's still poses. This is
Speaker 8: an incredible killer, and there's a lot more answers than
Speaker 8: certain questions, or pardon me, certain questions rather than answers.
Speaker 4: Yeah. One of my concerns of this book is I
Speaker 4: think I wore out the use of the word may
Speaker 4: m a y over and over in the book. I said, well,
Speaker 4: this may be true, or that may be true, or so. Yeah,
Speaker 4: I don't say a whole lot of what's definitive. There
Speaker 4: will be more definitive information coming through in book three
Speaker 4: of My Profile, which or with a book in the series,
Speaker 4: which I'm very ecstatic about. Because Monday I completed my
Speaker 4: rough version of the book. It will now undergo a
Speaker 4: series of edits with my with my editor before it
Speaker 4: comes out in next September, and that will be exposed
Speaker 4: the zodiac revealed. Point. I can't say a whole lot
Speaker 4: about the book. My editor, my publisher, will not allow
Speaker 4: me to say much about it, but he has allowed
Speaker 4: me to say that the intention of the book is
Speaker 4: to round down to limit the number of suspects based
Speaker 4: on the profile of the book profiled.
Speaker 8: Wow, that's an incredible endeavor here. I mean, it's an
Speaker 8: incredible book. I keep asking these questions even though I'm
Speaker 8: reading this book and I know I can't get these answers,
Speaker 8: but it does compel you to ask these questions that
Speaker 8: fascinate the audience and have fascinated the audience since the
Speaker 8: beginning of this This Killer's Terror. I want to thank
Speaker 8: you very much for coming on and talking about Profiled.
Speaker 8: For those that might want to take a look at
Speaker 8: your work, do you have a website where can they
Speaker 8: take a look at some of the other stuff or
Speaker 8: website for this book.
Speaker 4: I have an author's page on Amazon dot com. Look
Speaker 4: under Mark Hewitt, my editor. My publisher, Genius Book Publishing
Speaker 4: also has a couple pages on the two books. You
Speaker 4: can check out that Genius book Publishing dot com and
Speaker 4: actually get on a mailing list to be updated on
Speaker 4: what's available. A few months ago, we came out with
Speaker 4: an audio version of Hunted right now that is that
Speaker 4: is actually our best seller. Apparently audible is very popular.
Speaker 4: I don't know if such truckers are buying it or
Speaker 4: who's buying it, But a lot of people are buying
Speaker 4: the Hunted on audio. It's very popular. The first book, Hunted,
Speaker 4: is continuing to out sell Profile, but with the release
Speaker 4: of Profile, there's been a lot of interest in the trilogy,
Speaker 4: so that I think people are looking at Hunted first.
Speaker 4: I'm continuing to get a lot of really good feedback
Speaker 4: on Goodreads and Amazon dot Com for both of the books.
Speaker 8: Yes, absolutely, again the congratulations on Profile. The Zodiac Examined
Speaker 8: a fascinating, fascinating work. Thank you very much Mark for
Speaker 8: coming on and hope to talk to you again next
Speaker 8: year when the new book, Exposed comes out, so looking
Speaker 8: forward to that. Thank you very much, Mark, great
Speaker 4: Evening, Thanks, thanks very much, good night bye now