WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.160 --> 00:00:03.000 Oh hey, it's the Bobby Penn hiding in your hair overnight, 2 00:00:03.080 --> 00:00:05.639 Ali Ward, this episode is coming out in the middle 3 00:00:05.639 --> 00:00:09.000 of the night, sometime between April first and second. Friends. 4 00:00:09.880 --> 00:00:12.919 It's not a prank, it's real. It's really a whole 5 00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:17.440 episode about medieval manuscript art with a focus on drawings 6 00:00:17.440 --> 00:00:19.920 of snails. This is why I make this show. This 7 00:00:20.000 --> 00:00:23.280 is why this was my dream job forever. I love 8 00:00:23.359 --> 00:00:27.280 this and you will too as we cover what these golden, 9 00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.440 illuminated Middle Ages manuscripts were made of and so much 10 00:00:30.440 --> 00:00:33.039 more with this expert who did their undergrad at the 11 00:00:33.119 --> 00:00:37.200 University of Winchester in Medieval and Renaissance studies, a master 12 00:00:37.399 --> 00:00:39.840 also in Medieval and Renaissance studies and is working toward 13 00:00:39.880 --> 00:00:42.600 a PhD. Now you may be familiar with their work. 14 00:00:43.079 --> 00:00:46.119 Hundreds of thousands of art history hungry people follow them 15 00:00:46.119 --> 00:00:50.119 online and they educate the public about historical texts and 16 00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:55.880 arts and sistery which are medieval snail themes. Their bio 17 00:00:56.119 --> 00:01:01.600 simply explains medieval snail historian, that's what my thesis was on. 18 00:01:02.039 --> 00:01:05.159 And they seem to go viral whenever they mention Vincent 19 00:01:05.239 --> 00:01:05.920 Vanco's work. 20 00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:08.599 Vincent voholks voholch himself. 21 00:01:08.920 --> 00:01:13.159 Okay, the hitches, they're Dutch, they speak Dutch. This is 22 00:01:13.200 --> 00:01:18.040 how Vincent van g A Dutch said his name in Dutch, 23 00:01:18.120 --> 00:01:20.760 and how everyone who speaks his native tongue of Dutch 24 00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:23.159 says it. So they know what they are talking about 25 00:01:23.159 --> 00:01:25.280 and they love doing it. So when many of you 26 00:01:25.359 --> 00:01:27.920 asked me to get to the bottom of medieval gastropods, 27 00:01:28.159 --> 00:01:31.439 I moved swiftly. Here we are. I promise you there 28 00:01:31.439 --> 00:01:34.120 are many, many, many things relevant to your life and 29 00:01:34.159 --> 00:01:36.079 the world around us in this episode. You will never 30 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:39.519 look at old manuscripts, snails, or even the news the 31 00:01:39.560 --> 00:01:42.519 same way. Have faith. Now on that note, thank you 32 00:01:42.519 --> 00:01:45.280 to everyone who leaves reviews for this show on your 33 00:01:45.319 --> 00:01:47.879 podcast apps, which I read. I harvest a fresh one 34 00:01:47.879 --> 00:01:50.599 each week, such as this one from Tim M six 35 00:01:50.599 --> 00:01:53.400 point fifty one, who wrote, truly the best science podcast 36 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:56.000 out there. Even when I find myself not interested in 37 00:01:56.040 --> 00:01:58.920 a topic, she makes it palatable. The worst thing about 38 00:01:58.920 --> 00:02:01.799 it is the show note. You thought you were done, well, 39 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:04.640 here's five more episodes you might like. Seriously give it 40 00:02:04.640 --> 00:02:06.519 a listen, and yeah, check the show notes because we 41 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.199 always link a bunch of episodes that you're gonna like. Okay, Tim, 42 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:11.879 thank you. Thank you also for wearing your Ologies merch, 43 00:02:11.879 --> 00:02:14.120 which you can get at ologiesmarch dot com. We keep 44 00:02:14.120 --> 00:02:16.840 it affordable so that Ologites can find each other in 45 00:02:17.000 --> 00:02:19.280 the wild. Also, thank you a patrons at patroon dot 46 00:02:19.280 --> 00:02:21.520 com slash ologies for making the show possible and sending 47 00:02:21.520 --> 00:02:23.840 in your questions. You can join if you like, for 48 00:02:23.879 --> 00:02:27.560 as little as one hot dollar a month. Also, if 49 00:02:27.639 --> 00:02:30.879 our regular episodes are too sexy and cool for you 50 00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:33.520 and you need some without swearing, we make a whole 51 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:36.080 spinoff show called Smologies. You can find it in the 52 00:02:36.120 --> 00:02:39.280 show notes or wherever you get podcasts, just search for Smologies. 53 00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:42.280 They are shorter, classroom saved versions of our episodes for 54 00:02:42.280 --> 00:02:45.879 the kiddos. Okay, let's get to it. So, codocology is 55 00:02:45.919 --> 00:02:48.960 the study of old, old books, and in this case 56 00:02:48.960 --> 00:02:51.759 we're looking at the Middle Ages and the drawings that 57 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.039 crept up the margins and at the foot of the 58 00:02:55.080 --> 00:02:59.039 pages and between the letters of rare books, also creeping 59 00:02:59.080 --> 00:03:03.400 among the imagery. Tons of snails. Why, let's talk about it. 60 00:03:03.520 --> 00:03:06.680 Who drew them? Why were people sometimes naked in them? 61 00:03:06.919 --> 00:03:10.479 Why did animals have creepy human faces, What art trends 62 00:03:10.560 --> 00:03:12.840 came and went? And what does it say about our 63 00:03:13.000 --> 00:03:16.000 history and future? What happened if you messed up making 64 00:03:16.000 --> 00:03:19.520 a manuscript? What exactly is a Salisbury steak with scholar 65 00:03:19.879 --> 00:03:28.759 globally known art history communicator, Snithstorian and medieval cotocologist Evan Pritmore. 66 00:03:45.439 --> 00:03:47.520 Evan Pridmore and my pronouns? Are they them? 67 00:03:47.960 --> 00:03:52.479 And where you're in some sort of library with leather 68 00:03:52.560 --> 00:03:53.560 bound books. 69 00:03:54.199 --> 00:03:56.840 So this isn't actually it's not technically a library, but 70 00:03:57.039 --> 00:03:59.879 it's a set that we use for when we're doing 71 00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:04.560 videos and podcasting and things like that. The issue that 72 00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:07.719 I have is that these are all very old, rare 73 00:04:07.800 --> 00:04:13.520 historical books, so sometimes they get bought, which means that 74 00:04:13.560 --> 00:04:15.840 we have to frantically search through them and then find 75 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:19.000 something else to fill the set instead. So we handle 76 00:04:19.160 --> 00:04:22.680 rare historical or otherwise significant books in general, which of 77 00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:25.959 course is where my study and piliography comes into play. 78 00:04:26.279 --> 00:04:29.360 Paleography means old writing, which is cool. 79 00:04:29.800 --> 00:04:32.560 So some of the things we've recently handled last year 80 00:04:32.920 --> 00:04:37.759 was the first folio, Shakespeare's firstfolio, so very early seventeenth century, 81 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:43.160 several million pounds what yeah, things like that which are 82 00:04:44.040 --> 00:04:46.360 literal pieces of history you can hold in your hand. 83 00:04:46.399 --> 00:04:47.399 It's incredible. 84 00:04:48.040 --> 00:04:50.079 Did you have to go through any history if Shakespeare 85 00:04:50.120 --> 00:04:52.199 was real? Or was five people or anything like that? 86 00:04:52.800 --> 00:04:56.519 Shakespeare was real? I can say that just based on 87 00:04:56.560 --> 00:04:59.480 the current academic A research Shakespeare was real, and our 88 00:04:59.480 --> 00:05:01.839 official state answers that, yes, Shakespeare was a real person. 89 00:05:01.879 --> 00:05:04.560 We're not buying into the conspiracy theories. Unfortunately. 90 00:05:05.160 --> 00:05:07.120 That's wonderful. I'm glad we cleared that up right off 91 00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:08.879 the bat, because that's the thing I forgot that I 92 00:05:08.920 --> 00:05:12.000 was wondering. And so books and rare books. 93 00:05:12.399 --> 00:05:12.680 M hm. 94 00:05:13.040 --> 00:05:18.920 So you came into my field division about literature's medieval snails. 95 00:05:20.279 --> 00:05:23.920 I need to know how your work steered in that direction. 96 00:05:24.519 --> 00:05:26.720 When did you start to notice snails or did somebody 97 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:29.639 else notice snails? And you were like, you're right, does 98 00:05:29.680 --> 00:05:33.319 everyone know about snails in medieval literature? Or is this 99 00:05:33.360 --> 00:05:36.519 something that going through old books you started to see them? 100 00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:39.560 Well, So I always grew up being quite a fan 101 00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:42.639 of history. I mean, especially British audiences, which is where 102 00:05:42.639 --> 00:05:45.120 I'm based. They'll know things like Horrible Histories, which is 103 00:05:45.120 --> 00:05:47.160 a book and TV series. Are you Protestant? 104 00:05:47.920 --> 00:05:49.680 Are you vaguely related to Henry the Eighth. 105 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.800 Is your name, Lady Jane Gray, Then you want to 106 00:05:54.040 --> 00:05:57.000 star prize and you're going to experience what it's like 107 00:05:57.040 --> 00:06:01.199 to be queen for nine days and really caught my attention. 108 00:06:01.360 --> 00:06:03.959 Made me sort of obsessed with history, frankly to a 109 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:08.600 concerning degree, and I think I started to veer towards 110 00:06:08.639 --> 00:06:11.720 the early Modern and Medieval period just because those seemed 111 00:06:11.759 --> 00:06:14.040 to be times that there was a lot of confusion 112 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:17.439 and there's a lot of differing opinions and takes and 113 00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:21.199 research into it. And in the Medieval period, especially because 114 00:06:21.240 --> 00:06:23.199 a lot of our view of the Middle Ages is 115 00:06:23.240 --> 00:06:28.120 warped by victorians. So things like the iron maiden or 116 00:06:28.279 --> 00:06:31.439 other torture devices, a lot of them were invented later 117 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:35.319 because the Victorians wanted to essentially show that they were 118 00:06:35.519 --> 00:06:38.759 more civilized than these medieval barbarians. 119 00:06:39.079 --> 00:06:40.959 I was like, what is this all about? And yeah, 120 00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:43.800 the Dark Ages got a bad rap from victorians, and 121 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:46.040 they said all kinds of things about how brutal and 122 00:06:46.160 --> 00:06:49.240 uncivilized people were back then, and even though some of 123 00:06:49.240 --> 00:06:51.879 the torture devices they said they used were not in 124 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:54.800 fact a thing back then. But let's just clear up 125 00:06:54.879 --> 00:06:57.000 the timeline a little bit because it is kind of 126 00:06:57.079 --> 00:07:02.160 dark and murky, so classical antiquity, Ancient Rome, Ancient Greece. 127 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:04.399 We do have a whole episode about ancient Rome as 128 00:07:04.439 --> 00:07:06.839 well as a few Egyptology episodes will link in the 129 00:07:06.839 --> 00:07:10.680 show notes. But yeah, classical antiquity spans from the eighth 130 00:07:10.720 --> 00:07:14.800 century BC to the fifth century AD and the Roman 131 00:07:14.800 --> 00:07:18.680 Empire specifically, it started right before Christ and it lasted 132 00:07:18.759 --> 00:07:21.839 about five hundred years. And then we have the Middle 133 00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:25.480 Ages and the Dark Ages that's the early part of 134 00:07:25.519 --> 00:07:28.600 those Middle Ages, from right after Rome fell to about 135 00:07:28.800 --> 00:07:32.560 one thousand. Now, these whole Middle Ages from five hundred 136 00:07:32.639 --> 00:07:36.560 to fifteen hundred that was also called the Medieval Period. 137 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:39.480 And after that, around fifteen hundred on, we have the 138 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:43.120 start of the Modern Era with the capture and fall 139 00:07:43.199 --> 00:07:46.839 of Constantinople by the Ottoman Empire, the spread of the 140 00:07:46.879 --> 00:07:52.560 printing press, Columbus ambling west and getting lost but changing 141 00:07:52.959 --> 00:07:56.639 the world history of colonization, and now we have phones 142 00:07:56.680 --> 00:07:59.959 where we look at video of strangers getting their earwax cleaned. 143 00:08:00.279 --> 00:08:02.399 But yeah, the Dark Ages is the kind of out 144 00:08:02.439 --> 00:08:05.120 of date term for the early Middle Ages. 145 00:08:05.560 --> 00:08:07.639 So because of that, I was like, okay, well, what 146 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:10.279 is the truth about the Middle Ages? Are they really 147 00:08:10.519 --> 00:08:14.480 this insane and bonkers? There was chial by cake where 148 00:08:14.720 --> 00:08:17.879 it was if you were able to eat the cake 149 00:08:17.959 --> 00:08:20.759 without choking, you'd be fined innocent. If you choked while 150 00:08:20.759 --> 00:08:22.759 eating the cake, you would be found guilty. 151 00:08:22.879 --> 00:08:24.439 Oh no, what kind of cake was it? 152 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:26.800 I honestly don't know. I'm gonna imagine some sort of 153 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:29.720 like fruitcake or mince pie or something along those lines. 154 00:08:30.040 --> 00:08:31.959 I needed to know it really quick. You needed to know. 155 00:08:32.159 --> 00:08:35.799 And this was apparently called coarse ned or the accursed 156 00:08:36.000 --> 00:08:40.000 or sacred morsel, And sadly it was not a medieval 157 00:08:40.039 --> 00:08:44.000 apple fritter, but apparently it was unleavened barley bread with 158 00:08:44.240 --> 00:08:47.360 sheep milk, made in the month of May. Very specific. 159 00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:51.960 It was also called elfitomancy, and it involved barley cake 160 00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:56.480 sometimes or slices of barley bread. And yeah, if you 161 00:08:56.600 --> 00:08:59.480 choked on that, you were toast. Keep in mind, if 162 00:08:59.480 --> 00:09:02.720 you had a bunch of holy figures watching you eat 163 00:09:02.720 --> 00:09:05.399 a piece of dry bread to determine if you lived 164 00:09:05.440 --> 00:09:09.840 or died, you would probably have sweaty palms and cot math, 165 00:09:10.200 --> 00:09:13.639 meaning that you would probably choke. But I don't even think. 166 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.879 They're just a system allowed for an appeal in the 167 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:20.120 form of dessert. And yeah, it happened more than once, 168 00:09:20.399 --> 00:09:22.759 but I guess you got a free snack out of it. 169 00:09:22.840 --> 00:09:25.480 A bit early for me, a bit out of my specialty. 170 00:09:25.519 --> 00:09:27.240 But it's those sort of weird things that I just 171 00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:31.840 became obsessed with. And then one day I saw the art, 172 00:09:32.159 --> 00:09:36.240 which is weird. I think a lot of people have 173 00:09:36.320 --> 00:09:40.120 seen this whole thing about medieval memes or like weird 174 00:09:40.159 --> 00:09:43.519 medieval art online. I'm sure you've seen them as well. Yeah, yeah, 175 00:09:43.559 --> 00:09:46.159 and I love them. Yeah, everyone loves them. They're great. 176 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.480 And I was like, Okay, surely that can't be all 177 00:09:48.519 --> 00:09:50.759 of it, because we see how people were drawing in 178 00:09:50.799 --> 00:09:52.840 the Renaissance, and we see how people are drawing in 179 00:09:52.840 --> 00:09:55.240 the Classical era, and so there's this whole idea of 180 00:09:55.320 --> 00:09:58.080 in Europe the Dark Ages, which is a term I hate. 181 00:09:58.559 --> 00:10:02.039 But this whole thing of the Dark Ages is why 182 00:10:02.080 --> 00:10:05.279 did it suddenly go downhill and then go back up? 183 00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:07.120 And the truth is that it didn't. It was just 184 00:10:07.159 --> 00:10:09.440 a very different style. So one of my pet peeves 185 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.360 is when people say, oh, they didn't know how to draw, 186 00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:13.519 I'm like, yes, they did. They just drew in a 187 00:10:13.639 --> 00:10:15.720 very different way to what we would understand. 188 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.240 Why do you think that was it completely stylistically or 189 00:10:20.559 --> 00:10:23.440 was it just once your brain sees something a certain way, 190 00:10:23.480 --> 00:10:25.759 then it interprets everything that it sees that way. 191 00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:27.799 I think I was a little bit of both. I mean, 192 00:10:28.320 --> 00:10:31.440 it also depends on where you are, because I'm looking 193 00:10:31.480 --> 00:10:34.639 predominantly at European sources, and even in Europe, the sources 194 00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:37.240 are quite varied. If you look at early medieval artwork 195 00:10:37.320 --> 00:10:42.200 versus late medieval artwork in Italy, it varies a lot, 196 00:10:42.320 --> 00:10:45.600 especially the amount of gold that they use. Italy got 197 00:10:45.639 --> 00:10:47.120 richer they started to just add gold too. 198 00:10:47.120 --> 00:10:49.200 Everything Is it real gold? Is it real gold? Lead? 199 00:10:49.279 --> 00:10:52.879 Gold leaf? Yeah, a lot of it. And you still 200 00:10:52.879 --> 00:10:56.639 find many manuscripts today that still have gold leaf everywhere 201 00:10:56.679 --> 00:11:00.600 in them, and it's quite frankly, very tempting to steal them. 202 00:11:01.480 --> 00:11:04.399 Oh my god. I can't imagine how much money going 203 00:11:04.440 --> 00:11:06.440 back to that style of art, because we've seen medieval 204 00:11:06.440 --> 00:11:10.519 memes where it's like someone's holding someone's head and the 205 00:11:10.639 --> 00:11:13.720 head's dripping blood, and then someone the person holding the 206 00:11:13.759 --> 00:11:16.240 head also has a boner maybe, and like there's a 207 00:11:16.320 --> 00:11:20.000 dog lapping something up in the corner. Just people seem 208 00:11:20.080 --> 00:11:22.519 like weird little cartoon figures. Everyone looks kind of like 209 00:11:22.559 --> 00:11:25.799 mister Burns from the Simpsons, Like, where where is that 210 00:11:25.879 --> 00:11:26.960 style coming from? 211 00:11:27.519 --> 00:11:31.120 Ooh Okay, now you're getting into the real debate, because 212 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:34.240 there's a couple different perspectives of where it comes from. 213 00:11:34.240 --> 00:11:36.720 Because the thing is is that there are several different 214 00:11:36.720 --> 00:11:38.919 types of manuscripture have things like books of ours, We've 215 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:42.200 got psalters, We've got things like anatomical or pharmaceutical texts, 216 00:11:42.600 --> 00:11:45.440 and we also have things like carvings or stone reliefs 217 00:11:45.480 --> 00:11:48.360 that would happen on churches or other buildings like that, 218 00:11:48.559 --> 00:11:52.159 and the artwork varies between all of them. Now, around 219 00:11:52.279 --> 00:11:55.440 the ninth century, the artwork started to sort of look similar, 220 00:11:55.440 --> 00:11:58.480 at least in terms of drawing. In sculpture, it actually 221 00:11:58.480 --> 00:12:00.799 still looked a lot more realistic, with the exception of 222 00:12:00.840 --> 00:12:01.759 like grotesques. 223 00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:05.360 Just a side note, a grotesque it's often mistaken for 224 00:12:05.440 --> 00:12:08.279 a gargoyle, but I guess a gargoyle has to have 225 00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.440 water spouting out of it. But in general, a grotesque 226 00:12:11.480 --> 00:12:13.919 is kind of a goofy, creepy monster sculpture. On the 227 00:12:14.000 --> 00:12:18.200 side of buildings, sometimes churches because it added a little 228 00:12:18.240 --> 00:12:22.000 funny pizazz. But yeah, even those didn't look as weird 229 00:12:22.440 --> 00:12:24.919 as the manuscript drawings that Evan studies. 230 00:12:25.159 --> 00:12:27.000 Those were still very much a thing. But if you 231 00:12:27.039 --> 00:12:30.240 look at sculpture on a medieval cathedral, for example, those 232 00:12:30.279 --> 00:12:32.679 people look a lot more realistic than the people do 233 00:12:32.799 --> 00:12:33.759 in manuscripts. 234 00:12:34.159 --> 00:12:34.960 Yeah. 235 00:12:35.080 --> 00:12:38.120 The thing about the manuscripts is that these artworks, unless 236 00:12:38.159 --> 00:12:40.480 it was like a full illumination on a page that 237 00:12:40.519 --> 00:12:42.240 was meant to tie in with the text, is a 238 00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:45.080 lot of these were either marginal or just decorative, so 239 00:12:45.120 --> 00:12:50.320 there wasn't as much necessity for realism. Basically, you could 240 00:12:50.320 --> 00:12:52.759 be symbolic, you could be basically, you could have fun 241 00:12:52.759 --> 00:12:53.080 with it. 242 00:12:53.240 --> 00:12:56.080 You want to get weird, let's get weird. And when 243 00:12:56.200 --> 00:12:59.480 you're talking about manuscripts, does that mean a manuscript is 244 00:12:59.559 --> 00:13:04.919 always handwritten? Does the nomenclature change as technology does, and 245 00:13:04.919 --> 00:13:07.240 what kind of technology did they have in the medieval times? 246 00:13:07.799 --> 00:13:11.279 So manuscript phonetically you break it down into manuscript, it 247 00:13:11.320 --> 00:13:14.480 does mean handwritten. So in the rare book trade we 248 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:16.879 still have things that are called manuscripts, but these would 249 00:13:16.919 --> 00:13:20.159 be things like a handwritten draft for a James Bond 250 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:23.120 novel or something along those lines. Like a manuscript letter 251 00:13:23.159 --> 00:13:25.360 would be a handwritten letter as opposed to a typed letter. 252 00:13:25.759 --> 00:13:28.399 It literally just means handwritten. So when we say that 253 00:13:28.440 --> 00:13:31.919 in terms of medieval books, when I say a medieval manuscript, 254 00:13:32.159 --> 00:13:34.840 pretty much everything in the Middle Ages was a manuscript 255 00:13:34.919 --> 00:13:37.919 because the printing press, which already existed in China and 256 00:13:38.080 --> 00:13:41.279 Eastern Asia, did not exist in Europe at that time. 257 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:45.679 It wasn't until the late fifteenth century with the Gutenberg 258 00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:47.960 Press that it really became a thing. And by that time, 259 00:13:48.080 --> 00:13:50.519 the Renaissance in early Modern period were already kicking off. 260 00:13:50.879 --> 00:13:53.279 So if we're looking solely at the Middle Ages, they 261 00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.960 didn't have any technology other than handwriting. There were some 262 00:13:57.039 --> 00:13:59.480 things like woodcuts that you could do, but they didn't 263 00:13:59.480 --> 00:14:00.799 have a press to do it, so it'd have to 264 00:14:00.799 --> 00:14:03.799 be manually done each time, which is a very long 265 00:14:03.960 --> 00:14:08.919 process and part of why incredibly detailed manuscripts. Some would 266 00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.440 be written by one person and then illustrated by another, 267 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:13.919 so it would kind of be like almost a production 268 00:14:14.360 --> 00:14:16.279 line of who. 269 00:14:16.120 --> 00:14:18.600 Was doing what and who was doing this? Was it 270 00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:19.240 all monks? 271 00:14:19.440 --> 00:14:21.200 Well, I'd like to just add for the record, that 272 00:14:21.279 --> 00:14:24.759 it was a lot of nuns as well, was it. Yeah, 273 00:14:24.799 --> 00:14:27.320 they often get forgotten. So I'd just like to give 274 00:14:27.360 --> 00:14:30.320 a huge shout out to my medieval ladies. Jeffrey Hamburger 275 00:14:30.399 --> 00:14:32.200 wrote a which, first of all, a great name, wrote 276 00:14:32.200 --> 00:14:35.360 an incredible book that's on nuns in medieval art and 277 00:14:35.440 --> 00:14:38.200 nuns as artists. It's a really good read, and it 278 00:14:38.279 --> 00:14:41.120 kind of was mostly them. There were scribes, there were 279 00:14:41.120 --> 00:14:44.279 schools that did this, but honestly, it was the main 280 00:14:44.600 --> 00:14:48.039 source of outcome for a monastery or a convent. Many 281 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.320 of the people who went into monasteries and convents would 282 00:14:50.360 --> 00:14:54.639 be people like either third or fourth sons of lesser nobility, 283 00:14:54.840 --> 00:14:57.799 or like certain merchant's children, and so they would already 284 00:14:57.879 --> 00:15:00.480 have somewhat of a background in painting and reading because 285 00:15:00.480 --> 00:15:03.080 it was expected of like these children to learn that 286 00:15:03.120 --> 00:15:05.440 growing up, which meant that they could then of course 287 00:15:05.480 --> 00:15:08.440 teach classes to other people, including the lower classes coming in. 288 00:15:09.440 --> 00:15:12.279 And basically, yeah, they had the resources, they had the time, 289 00:15:12.679 --> 00:15:14.960 and they had the funding to do it. So for 290 00:15:15.039 --> 00:15:18.559 the most part, yes, there were other workshops and places 291 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:21.080 doing it, but the majority of things that we know 292 00:15:21.200 --> 00:15:25.240 were either written by people of the monastic life or 293 00:15:25.759 --> 00:15:29.080 people who were in some way connected with religion, and. 294 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.519 Then did that fund the monastery as well? Did they 295 00:15:31.519 --> 00:15:33.440 get kind of commissions and then that all went into 296 00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:33.879 the pot. 297 00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.279 Yes, definitely. And we have a few cases of certain 298 00:15:37.320 --> 00:15:39.720 monks who actually became so famous that they were able 299 00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:42.279 to have their own workshop and places like that. So 300 00:15:42.320 --> 00:15:46.600 there's one. So Matthew Paris, for example, Matthew Paris was 301 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:50.240 a Benedictine monk who became so well known that he 302 00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.639 actually was able to write all his own stuff and 303 00:15:52.679 --> 00:15:54.879 we know that it's assigned to him. Now, whether that 304 00:15:54.960 --> 00:15:57.200 was him or whether it was a studio, that's a question. 305 00:15:57.440 --> 00:16:00.759 But essentially, yeah, these were just workshops. A bunch of 306 00:16:01.000 --> 00:16:02.320 men was tauntures. 307 00:16:02.320 --> 00:16:04.519 No idea what a tonsure was, So I'm here to 308 00:16:04.519 --> 00:16:08.639 tell you it's when clergy or monks shave a huge, 309 00:16:09.120 --> 00:16:12.360 unsexy bald spot and they just rock the bangs in 310 00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:15.120 a mullet and then go commando at the top of 311 00:16:15.159 --> 00:16:18.559 the head. Also a couple more things fashion wise fun 312 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:23.559 at the monastery. Hair shirts woven from coarse goat bristles 313 00:16:23.960 --> 00:16:28.240 that sometimes featured scraps of metal or twigs. Those were 314 00:16:28.279 --> 00:16:31.240 worn on the skin solely for the purpose of bad 315 00:16:31.399 --> 00:16:34.279 sensory vibes to remind you to be good. And there 316 00:16:34.279 --> 00:16:38.759 were other forms of scillus used to repent via the 317 00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:43.159 pain and mortification of the flesh, like rose thorn garters 318 00:16:43.399 --> 00:16:46.840 or metal spiked ones you could tighten kind of like 319 00:16:46.879 --> 00:16:50.360 a prong collar for dogs. But it's you and you're 320 00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:53.200 doing it for God. Can you still get this stuff? Sure? 321 00:16:53.480 --> 00:16:57.159 I found such items, as well as religious whips to 322 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.879 hurt yourself on a devotional website for the low price 323 00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:03.879 of sixty nine dollars ninety nine cents. You can also 324 00:17:03.960 --> 00:17:07.599 find these things on Etsy. From what I gather, they're 325 00:17:07.680 --> 00:17:10.519 used in all kinds of recreation. You certainly don't need 326 00:17:10.559 --> 00:17:14.119 to live in a convent or a monastery to enjoy them. 327 00:17:14.440 --> 00:17:18.319 But yeah, back to the dominant monk who was hot 328 00:17:18.359 --> 00:17:23.440 shit in his illuminated or illustrated manuscript studio. Like in 329 00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.000 his case, was he doing the lettering and the drawing 330 00:17:26.119 --> 00:17:28.200 or just the drawing or just the lettering. 331 00:17:28.720 --> 00:17:31.599 So in his case, he was, as far as we 332 00:17:31.640 --> 00:17:35.039 can tell, doing both, or at the very least designing both. 333 00:17:35.559 --> 00:17:38.160 So the thing about manuscripts that's different from modern books 334 00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:40.920 is that most times there would only be one true 335 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.519 copy of a manuscript because you'd have to rewrite it, 336 00:17:44.599 --> 00:17:46.480 a rewrite it, rewrite it, rewrite it, and it just 337 00:17:46.480 --> 00:17:49.559 takes a long time. Frankly, I don't know if you've 338 00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:54.759 ever tried completing an entire foot sized book. It takes forever, 339 00:17:55.119 --> 00:17:58.160 takes a minute, it does, and also illustrate it and 340 00:17:58.200 --> 00:18:02.519 then do it completely identically in another one and another one. 341 00:18:02.599 --> 00:18:06.799 It's not possible. So we know that he definitely designed 342 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.200 and the words are his. But how much was him 343 00:18:11.400 --> 00:18:14.640 versus underlings or other studio members. That is something that 344 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:15.559 is still up for debate. 345 00:18:15.720 --> 00:18:18.359 So he may have had a literal hand making and designing, 346 00:18:18.720 --> 00:18:21.279 but then people trained under him completed it. 347 00:18:21.640 --> 00:18:23.920 Technically speaking, we say it's him because it comes from 348 00:18:23.960 --> 00:18:25.680 his studio in the same way that we would say 349 00:18:25.680 --> 00:18:27.839 a painting is by Raphael, even if some of his 350 00:18:27.880 --> 00:18:29.799 studio assistants worked on the painting as well. 351 00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:32.680 Is he kind of like stan Lee a little bit? 352 00:18:32.920 --> 00:18:34.559 Like a like a comment? Very much? 353 00:18:34.599 --> 00:18:38.160 So, yeah, Yeah, there's an incredible work that actually was 354 00:18:38.200 --> 00:18:41.240 recently digitized at Trinity College, Dublin, which is where I 355 00:18:41.319 --> 00:18:43.799 did one of my masters, And it's if you are 356 00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:45.640 ever born. You need to look up the Life of 357 00:18:45.640 --> 00:18:49.279 Saint Alban by Matthew Paris. There's an incredible piece where 358 00:18:49.519 --> 00:18:52.880 when Sinn Alban spoiler alert gets executed, the man who's 359 00:18:52.920 --> 00:18:56.039 executing him in the legend, his eyes fall out, and 360 00:18:56.119 --> 00:18:58.359 so there's an incredible piece of artwork where it's just 361 00:18:58.400 --> 00:19:00.640 this guy whose eyes are just falling out of his 362 00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:05.279 hand and he's like, what do I do? No? And 363 00:19:05.359 --> 00:19:07.759 it they kind of do read like comic books in 364 00:19:07.759 --> 00:19:09.559 a way. Yeah, so comical. 365 00:19:10.279 --> 00:19:14.400 What medieval memes are some of your favorites? Obviously cupping 366 00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.599 your own eyeballs in each palm? 367 00:19:17.680 --> 00:19:18.440 Yeah, classic? 368 00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.799 Solid. What are some that are going around right now 369 00:19:21.839 --> 00:19:24.359 that you really enjoy getting some light of day? 370 00:19:24.720 --> 00:19:28.640 Ooh okay, So I'm actually gonna preface this by saying 371 00:19:28.640 --> 00:19:30.799 I have somewhat of a pet peeve against the term 372 00:19:30.839 --> 00:19:35.240 medieval meme because it sort of trivializes what medieval motifs were. 373 00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:38.119 But on the other hand, in this digital age, I 374 00:19:38.160 --> 00:19:40.400 think it's very important to be able to translate things 375 00:19:40.440 --> 00:19:43.160 into a way that modern audiences or people who are 376 00:19:43.240 --> 00:19:46.039 less knowledgeable will be able to understand. So it's more 377 00:19:46.039 --> 00:19:48.559 of a personal academic thing but I do understand calling 378 00:19:48.559 --> 00:19:51.880 them medieval memes, and I'm guilty of calling them that myself. 379 00:19:52.240 --> 00:19:56.440 I would say nuns harvesting dicks off of trees always 380 00:19:56.440 --> 00:19:57.000 a good one. 381 00:19:57.759 --> 00:19:59.759 What story was that telling? 382 00:20:00.200 --> 00:20:02.480 It has to do. It's basically a symbol of fertility, 383 00:20:02.559 --> 00:20:04.599 et cetera. Yeah, it's a good one. 384 00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:08.720 Take for example, the fourteenth century illustrations for a medieval 385 00:20:08.799 --> 00:20:12.920 love handbook called a Romance of the Rose, which features 386 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:15.279 a nun in a brown robe and a veil reaching 387 00:20:15.440 --> 00:20:19.640 upwards toward a branch to pluck a hefty dog from 388 00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.000 among the leaves, and she's carrying a basket. It's also 389 00:20:23.000 --> 00:20:25.880 filled with dogs, and it reminds me of like the 390 00:20:25.920 --> 00:20:30.480 opening credits of some celebrity cooking show, just our star 391 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:35.079 walking through a sun drenched orchard harvesting goodies, only it's 392 00:20:35.119 --> 00:20:38.200 a nun and their dicks. And this wasn't just in 393 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:41.319 the Romance of the Rose. There was an absolute bumper 394 00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:43.400 crop of this imagery at the time. 395 00:20:43.440 --> 00:20:45.880 There's an incredible calendar that you can get, like a 396 00:20:45.880 --> 00:20:48.960 wall calendar that just has different medieval penis trees for 397 00:20:49.039 --> 00:20:52.119 every month, and frankly I need that in wallpaper. 398 00:20:54.079 --> 00:20:55.640 Forget your books in the background. 399 00:20:56.000 --> 00:20:57.359 Yeah, exactly, that's where it's at. 400 00:20:57.920 --> 00:21:00.559 We got a better any what is the other ones going? 401 00:21:00.559 --> 00:21:00.839