Speaker 1: Made a decision a face sunny sun on I had
o visione nice two weeks.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Thursday, Special guest episode of A for Crying
Out Loud And we have a special guest in studio
Jillian Lauren, who, by the way, is one of our
most memorable I just told her this off air, one
of our most memorable guests that we've ever had on
for Crying Out Loud of all time.
Speaker 3: Yes, she wrote the book Some Girls about her time
in a harem and you told us the whole story.
Speaker 4: And it's a beautifully written book.
Speaker 3: That book too, Yes, and it's so it was so
honest and like but entertaining, like we were just talking
about before, and uh, I feel like kind of a
breakthrough book.
Speaker 4: That book did really well, right did Yeah? It was
a great know.
Speaker 1: It was like they were just throwing spaghetti at the wall.
They were like, sure, you're a slut, and maybe this
book will do Like it was like maybe something will happen.
And it was the little engine that could. You know.
It's like, you know, it blew up and it's been
translated in eighteen languages and I always think, you know,
everyone's like, oh, you know, you just have this wild life,
this wild wildlife. I'm like, I do it's true, you know,
I guess if you it doesn't feel like it right
when it's your life, right right? But also you know
I'm a writer, yes, right, you know plenty of people
have wild lives.
Speaker 3: You were already a writer before you went, before you
wrote some Girls, you were already right or correct?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I wouldn't say I would have identified
that way like i'd be. I think my passport actually
said performance artist. Oh yeah, and that might be actually
closer to the truth than anything else. But yeah, I
had a passport that said my occupation was performance artist.
Speaker 2: Can I we just revisit that for one second for
people that don't know, how did you end up in
a harem?
Speaker 1: Well, I was trying to be an actor. I was
living in New York. Is this how every horrible story starts?
It really is, isn't it. And I went to college
very early. I went to college when I was sixteen,
so I was at NYU, you know. And as my
fifteen year old son says, now, I don't think that
was a very good idea, mom. It doesn't sound very safe, mom,
And I'm like, oh, thank you, Lauren, like I did
something right, and it definitely wasn't that. But you know,
I left Yu. I was going on these auditions, and
I was working on a vampire movie, Victim one every time,
like always the victim, never the purb Victim one great tagline,
and I made it right there on the spot. You know,
I had a tear away cheerleader uniform, like I was
running through some beach in the Hamptons and freezing cold
with you know, a cheerleader uniform that came off races right.
And there I met a young woman who also was
in the same kind of you know, trying to make
it and also doing everything you have to do to
live in New York, which is basically donate a kidney.
And she was like, you are ruining your knees acting
like a stripper. And I actually have this audition that
you know, you can make way more money in shorter time.
And I was like, oh, this friend, this new friend,
and I went. I went to the audition and I
got it, and then they called me and said, actually
that was an audition. It was an invitation to come
to the parties of the richest man in the world,
which he's been knocked off into like number four.
Speaker 4: Now, oh oh, but he's still up there.
Speaker 1: He's still up there.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean they have such oil reserves. It's really about resources, right,
It's tiny country.
Speaker 4: But so did you know anything about it at the time.
Speaker 1: I never even heard of it. Right.
Speaker 3: They were like, you're tidy, right, all right? How much money?
Speaker 1: Well you know it was they said twenty thousand dollars
for two weeks, and I was like, I've never heard
that amount of money before in my life. I mean,
I left for Bruni three days after I was eighteen.
Speaker 4: Oh my god, wow.
Speaker 1: And I had already been trying to support myself in
New York and I was just like, this is gonna
be a breeze and a half. And they're like all
you do is sing songs and dance, and I'm like,
I'm pretty sure that's not all I'm gonna have to do.
Speaker 4: But so you did this fact.
Speaker 1: I'm not an idiot, but I'm not a diplomat, so
I know I thought probably, yeah, that you know, there
was going to be some shady ship going on, and
there absolutely was and did for the next year and
a half.
Speaker 4: But I remember you said that Prince Jeffrey was that same.
Speaker 1: Yes, Prince Jeffrey, you never called him that. They have
to call him Robin, Robin Robin, I know, isn't It's
like so lame like the Sultan. You had to call
him martyr. I know. I was like like my uncle Marty,
like if you can just pick well because they all
know Rob, Yeah, you have to call Robin.
Speaker 4: I can't call him like Greg or like I know.
Speaker 1: Hardy, know, like just Chris Elmsworth his mind head.
Speaker 4: You said he was kind of cute, right like you
were he was.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm a little short for me.
He always said, wear flats. I was like, I'd rather die,
but you know, little short. And but he was thirty
thirty something, early thirties when I was, you know, in
my very I'm just like not early Jean, like my
late teens, right, and uh, you know that just seemed
like so old.
Speaker 4: Any younger ones around, any younger guys.
Speaker 1: Well, he had an entourage, okay, but all of them
had girlfriends within this harem. So it was just a
big party every single night, right right. And but like
his entourage, there were maybe ten of them. Sometime I
liked one than others, you know, some were cool, but
they would have a girlfriend there. But like if you
were Prince Jeffrey's girlfriend, then you were not up for grabs.
Speaker 3: I feel like in the story, I mean, I read
it so long ago, but I feel like I remember
that you were you kind of were in and out
of favor, like you were uh huh, like you were
you were the prize. You were like number one for
a little while right now, No number number two, oh number.
Speaker 2: Two, okay, and two weeks led more and it did
not end up being two weeks, a year and a half,
eighteen months, wow, jesus, I know.
Speaker 4: And then you went home and didn't you go back?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yes, I went, and I went back like there
was this I had this whole I know. It's you know,
it's actually like if you're talking about sex trafficking, right,
which I don't tend to like hit that really hard
because I feel it's the minute that people stop listening,
you know. But I was a teenager, yeah, you know,
and I was, you know, very quickly sort of drawn
into this thing that was presented as one thing and
then it was actually another thing. I mean, and when
I talk about it, I always say, you know, I
know it sounds like when you read the shopping chapter,
like when I got sent shopping in Singapore and they
closed down all the malls and I had a guard
with me with the Louis Vuitton sack full of cash,
just saying like hitch and now hit like every designer
store and get everything you want. I was like that
mom at Toys r Us or whatever, right that is
now just like they're like, you have fifteen minutes to
get every single cabbage batch kit and like they read
that and go like wow, it sounds so glamorous and fantastic,
and I wish I could do that. And then, you know,
I mean the truth was And also now I look
back and I'm like, could you be a little more fun?
Like does everything have to be a bummer? And we
can move into my next book with that so much time?
Does have to be a bummer? I came. You know,
everyone's like, oh the shopping trip where you get to
buy every Harmanny gown there's no price limit. I'm throwing
Chanell purses at them like just these and that one too.
That also and that sounds like your dream. But like
really what I did was go home after that and
just like cry right, because you know, there were fifteen
suitcases in front of me and I was not an idiot,
not then or not ever. And I was like, this
is disgusting, you know, like, yes, I did just get
to run through the mall and throw Chanell purses, you know,
and I did the dumbest thing. Do you want to
know what I did? Yeah? Like, I was like, I
just have to Clint. I had one of those Marie
Condo moments. Don't do it. I was like, this doesn't
bring me joy to touch this Chanelle person. I'm giving
it to my babysitter. I'm giving them all to my babysitter,
all of it. I know, I have like one thing left.
Wow would I say? But I was just like I
gave it all away, right, And I mean I can't
say you know that that process for me was you know,
I'm like, dumb ass, you couldn't have sold it in
the real reel. But also kind of I don't know
that there would have been enough money right like then
to pay for me just saying fuck you, this isn't
ever what really mattered to me. Do you feel like
writing the book in some ways helped you process? You
know what you went through and maybe some of the
trauma from that like helped you figure out a way
to look at it, or do you think it was
more time? Like now as a real grown woman, you
can run back and gown as woman. Yeah, I know
I hate that I'm assuming ass woman. I think that
writing is not therapy. However, the writing process for me
has given me a way to frame the world, right,
it has given It's given me a reason to pay attention.
And and yes I was a writer ish when I
went to Breni, but really I started being a writer
there frankly because it was so damn boring, you know.
And all of a sudden my journal has turned into
and not like I need to lose five pounds and
Chris is real cute, and you know, I really need
to do better in juggling class, you know, an experimental
theater school. You know how much I impressed my kids
my juggling skills. Now, you never know these things are
gonna juggle.
Speaker 4: You can judge these.
Speaker 1: Things are gonna turn out.
Speaker 4: I can juggle a little bit, only three, I can juggle.
Speaker 1: I can juggle three, all right, I can do all
juggle three juggle. I don't make me add a fourth
and why. But really, I don't think writing is therapy.
I think you need therapy for the writing. However, like
writing has given me meaning, yeah, as a person and
as an artist, and a way to grapple with stuff
that you know. I've been talking to my husband lately.
I'm like, did you even know that this, this, and
this happened? And he's like, not, Like that was not
one of the things you mentioned in the nineteen episodes
of sexual abuse or you know. Writing has given me
a way to take that narrative right and make it mine.
I can't say it fixed it fixed me, or it
was cathartic, or but it's given me a purpose in life. Well,
let I think let's take a quick break and we'll
get to her new book.
Speaker 3: Okay, we're back. So you've written some books in between.
This book is something very different for you. And it's
called Behold the Monster, a very attention grabbing title, I think,
and it's about the serial killer Sam Little and you,
like a lot of us, especially women, were already into
true crime, already fascinated by true crime.
Speaker 4: I want to hear. I have read some of this
book so far.
Speaker 3: I only got the book full disclosure a couple of
days ago, but I've already it's already can't put it down.
My husband was like, what are you reading? Like constantly,
like every few minutes. I was like picking the book
back up, and he's like, what is that. I was like,
she's going to be a guest on our show, and
it's so good.
Speaker 4: And this book has everything.
Speaker 3: So it's basically how you found this case and how
you got into it, and then your interviews with detectives
and your own research, but a lot of it is
and then your meetings with this serial killer, which I
want to hear all about. But then also, as the
beautiful writer that you are, you there are all of
these chapters in the books where you put yourself in
the body of the victims and told their story as
best as you could put it together. So I mean,
just just like, start at the beginning, tell us how
it came about.
Speaker 4: I highly recommend this book. It's amazing.
Speaker 1: I highly recommend this book too. And I've never felt
about any of my books like I'm not a message
driven writer, you know, I'm not like writing a book
to convince you of something, or like I'm I'm like
sharing an experience of life in this world and my
unique I for detail, perhaps you know, is all I
ever hoped for. But I've never stood on a soapbox before,
and I will do it for this book. Because I
started by working on a novel. I was writing a
mystery novel. I have been obsessed with mysteries. I've read
every Agatha Christie book before I was twelve years old.
And I just asked myself, you know, I'm a little
bit sick of me being the center of the narrative
right like everything it's like memoir memoir. And I also
do have a lovely little novel called Pretty in there,
but what has really caught fire had been my memoirs.
And I was like, I want out, I want out
of this story. So I'm going to do this audacious thing.
I was writing a fiction book. I got an interview
with this incredible detective. Her name is Mitzi Roberts. She
works at the Homicide Division here in LA which is
they're the fancy detectives that you see in all the shows.
And actually, if you're a reader of Michael Connolly, who's
been a great champion of this book, and everyone is
a reader of Michael Connolly, I think his character, Renee Ballard,
is based on Mitsy Roberts, and through Michael, I was
able to get this coveted interview with like the hottest
detective and I was talking to her about the Black
Dahlia case. I was talking to her about historical cases.
And at the very end of the interview, because I'd
like to leave it on a high note, I said,
you know, what, are you the most proud of She said,
I'm proud of them all. But I did catch this
serial killer once, and that was pretty cool. I was
just like, I blew this entire interview. You're like, what what?
I buried the lead? I blew the whole interview. All
the iced tea is like down to the water, you know.
And I was just like, all right, give it to
me quick. You know. You're like, let's try to learn
exactly feeling a need for some I don't even know
what dessert is. But she did tell me, and I
went and looked him up, Samuel Little, and she told
me he was an underreported serial killer. They got him
on three counts of murder, and they did it through
a grant through the Department of Justice. As forensics have advanced,
you know, we can look at cold case evidence in
a new way with new material. And so they were able.
They got a hit, they got to hit, they got
another hit, and now you have a serial killer. And
so you know, I said, I called my editor at
New York Magazine and was like, I got a serial
killer here. And she was like, we're not doing another
gruesome like serial killer story. You're gonna have to have
an angle, and uh, I was like, okay, an angle.
I'm I'm going to talk to this guy. And so
I started writing him, which is how you do it,
because you can't just like walk into a maximum scary.
Speaker 4: I'm here to Samuel.
Speaker 1: Yes, I would like to see sam Nile, who I may.
It made me like take my nose rings out at
the oh de Wayne. Worst was when I first showed
up at the prison. You know, my aunt is a
famous psychiatrist, and she told me just it's gonna be
what it's gonna be, and like she sounded sad when I.
Speaker 5: Was like, what's going to be, Like, what's going to
be like to talk to a psychopath?
Speaker 1: And she said, it's going to be like this. He's
gonna ask you for your shirt off your back and
you're gonna give him the shirt off your back, and
at the same time he's going to be telling you
he is stealing the shirt off your back, and you
will still feel compelled to give it to him. And
I thought that was probably the best summation of what
my entire experience over years was with him. Is a
fabulous it's a fabulous opportunity for a journalist to how
hundreds of hours of interviews, not three It takes more
than three hours to kind of.
Speaker 3: Get it right. So you wrote him back and forth
and then tell us about I thought it was so
it's so good in the book. Tell us about like
your first visit, you were so nervous you had brought
tell us what you brought because quarters okay, so she's
looking at me like I don't know what I brought him, like.
Speaker 1: I'm like, what do I bring? Well, no, actually I
still have that you can bring a clear like purse
or plastic bag. Right, So the first time I actually
showed up with like a baggie, But then I went
to Target and got myself the proper clear purse because
you were not cool if you just had a baggie, right,
And well, I know enough scumbags who have done time that.
I called them and I said, like, what do I do?
And they said, bring quarters for the vending machines, because
you're not cool if your visitor doesn't bring quarters and
your visitor is in some way in prison, like of value. Right,
like right, here's this put together woman showing up to
visit me, and she I mean put together. It's like,
I don't even know what that sounds like. But you know,
let's just say aspirationally attractive. It's a Hollywood word for
like cute but not too cute, showing up with quarters
for the vending machines. Thank you, Sasha, wherever you may be,
and you know, buying you wings and funians and little
Debby cakes.
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is really off topic, but it was
a question that came to my mind reading the book.
Speaker 4: So the chicken wings.
Speaker 3: So did they were they like not cooked yet? Because
did you have to put them clear? Or you brought it?
Speaker 1: No? I know you can't bring chicken wings. Okay, you
can bring this a clear plastic baggie and if you're cool,
I suggest you go to Target and buy one. But
you could also bring it in a plast.
Speaker 4: Pack, so you can bring wings there, Yes, in a
vending machine.
Speaker 1: I know, right. This was very surprising for me because
I get my ideas about serial killers from the same
place we do TV, right, And it's the same thing
with police work, you know, like you think a DNA
goes through in like five and a half seconds. It No,
it does. For an episode that someone's writing, it really
digs like three years. The backup is so intense. What
did Sam do? What?
Speaker 4: What was his kit?
Speaker 1: In?
Speaker 2: What?
Speaker 1: Years? Okay? And where? Excellent question? Who who is this man?
And what did he do? This man? And I went
in to visit and also, yes, I was extremely surprised
that there were microwaves for the wings you could buy
in the vending machines, but only the visitors can use
the microwaves.
Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, I don't want to get bogged down in
chicken wings.
Speaker 1: You get to the killer, no, But it was like,
I'll get to the killings right now, because I'm I mean,
this is the point where the killings started to like
pour forth. But I was expecting like the phone and
the glass and the whole thing. And no, I was
in the family visiting room like you know with convicts
and their babies, right, you know, and and a giant
section for legos, like for the kids to play, like
you could give this man a hug. Oh yeah, I
hugged him.
Speaker 4: But he was a serial killer, Like you, weren't you
scared that he might like what if he was like,
oh good, I have access to a woman.
Speaker 1: Well he planned, he planned that I'd be as last victim.
I mean, he told me as much, and I could.
But also I know how to talk to people like
if you just take if you just take all the weirdness.
Speaker 2: Out, like the serial killing weirdness, forget about.
Speaker 1: Forget about a downfalls and the serial killing right, and
the African adoptions and all the rest of it. You know,
every single thing is just being present in the moment.
And what I did was I remember the names of
the guards right and ask them about their kids. And
I was always in the same place because they're always recording.
Everything I ever did was Sam was recorded. And but
I felt like I could calculate there were this many
meters between me and the guard, and how long does
it take to strangle someone? Because the thing is that,
to answer your question, Sam was a sexual strangler. Sam
could Samuel little like sex for him with strangulation to
the point of death and as long and painful as
you could possibly make it. Like he would give CPR
to his victims to bring them back, just to put
them down again because and what it was like, and
that would be you know, I mean.
Speaker 2: What year was he doing these killings in Los Angeles?
Speaker 1: Well, Los Angeles was what he called his killing fields.
And that is because in the eighties here in Los
Angeles a number of things happened. Crack happened. We have
the first swat team in the nation, so all of
a sudden, after the Watts riots in the sixties, you know,
there are tanks in the streets of a city, and
that was the first time paramilitary tactics had been used.
So there were far more, like far steeper sentences for
drugs used in minority communities. It left an entire population
of women with their asses hanging out on Figaro Street,
not knowing what to do, and they were the easiest targets.
So Sam started in seventy one. His last murder was
two thousand and five.
Speaker 4: Wow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a really successful and long career if
you want to look at it.
Speaker 3: That we said, like over ninety victims, right, So ninety
three confessions.
Speaker 1: And those were those were not all mine. I you know,
like I got him talking, I kept him talking. I
observed the entire judicial process that was happening. He was
not on my only subject in this book, but you know,
certainly a very impactful one. And you know, so there
were ninety three confessions, and I happened to I just
happened to land in the middle of this federal investigation.
Like I was, like, I got the underreported serial killer.
Well guess what, You're not the only one. There was
also a cowboy. There is also a Texas ranger who
is six three six seven in his hat who is
getting these confessions out of Sam and is supposedly, like,
you know, the serial killer whisperer in the country. They
just needed a Texas case for him to be able
to start interviewing Sam. So, you know, in a way,
I was observing the whole investigation. I wasn't just getting
confessions from him. But you know what he did was
you know, he had a very trajectory that's very similar
to what we're all familiar with, the bundies, the gacies.
You know, there's usually childhood sexual trauma, there's often traumatic
brain injury. Now, get hit in the front of the
head enough times, that's where our impulse control lies, right,
and born with a certain genetic like perfect storm, right,
including them aoajen the warrior gene which cops also mostly have,
which you know people in the military have. But you know,
pick your sides. So he was he became obsessed with necks,
you know. And he'll tell you a million stories. Why
was it was the little redhead girl in his kindergarten class.
It was, you know, who just gave him snotty looks
right and was just a bitch. And he always talked
like he would do a woman voice, you know, and.
Speaker 5: Just talk with such vicious bitchery. There was such hatred there. Wow,
So at what point I have two questions.
Speaker 3: One, this is a quick side note, But you interviewed
this guy, this doctor James Fallon. So my husband, he's
basically this doctor who who tested himself, who like is
famous for talking about psychopathy versus sociopaths, like sociopaths versus psychopaths,
and he there's like a test and he tested himself
and found out that he was a psychopath.
Speaker 4: I know this guy, but he's non violent, right, right,
You can be a nod by.
Speaker 1: He says, I've actually threatened him. I was like, I
just think you'd be the best character, Like what if
you were really And I'm not saying this about doctor Fallon.
He is a phenomenal intellect and one of the most
interesting interviews of my life, and I hope to talk
to him again. But I told him, you know what
if What happened was he was doing two different studies
in his graduate studies. He was studying, you know, the
effects of Alzheimer's on the brain, and he was using
pet scans, right, and also psychopathy. And then there was
just he used his family as a control, right, And
then he was like, well, one of the one of
the wrong things wound up in this pile, like one
of the things from my family wound up in the
psychopath pile. And then he was like, oh, it's me.
And he wound to his mom and was like, is
have you thought this all along? And they were like, yeah,
well we all kind of knew there's something wrong with you.
This sounds like about right, but yeah, he's a nonviolent psychopathy.
You know, psychopathy, sociopathy. There are ideas that they're the
same thing that they're different things. Really, the diagnosis is
antisocial personality disorder right, right, And that does show up
like if you're if you're scanning a brain, you're going
to have way less activity in your frontal lobe, right,
which is like our executive functioning. That's what lets us
think critically and say like maybe even if you want
to kill, don't kill, right, you just don't kill people.
And also, you know, less less functioning in the imandola
and the sort of reptile brain that we have. That's
you know, our fight or flight response, you know, because
they're predators, you know, it's it's a it's a kill
response to the world.
Speaker 3: So my husband interviewed doctor Fallon as well, like years ago,
and had told me he was working on some show
and he came home and he was like, oh my gosh,
I interviewed this guy and he's so interesting, Irvine. But
he was like, and this is before I read this
part of your book. I said, oh, there's a chapter
about this doctor that I remember is the same one
you saw.
Speaker 4: And he was like, oh, yeah, he's so weird, he said.
Speaker 3: He greeted me in these like short shorts and put
out this like charcuterie board, and he's like and then
he like was looking at me while he was like
cutting sausage, like, and then I started reading the book.
I was like, John, John, I go and I read
them the thing about the charcuterie board and the saucet
a sausage of Job's like, oh my god, nothing's changed,
and he goes, you must ask her if he was
wearing short shorts now he was like, I could basically
see his balls while he was doing that.
Speaker 1: I definitely would have probably fucking with him.
Speaker 3: I don't know, honestly, Like, no, he was. He was
like the perfect teddy bear. That's so funny, you know.
Speaker 1: And then he took me apart. He took me apart
in that interview. You know, he said like hold out
your hand, and you know I have extreme anxiety. I know,
I know that's really hard to believe. But he's like, listen,
you know everyone wants a pet scan, right and my
job here is not psychoanalyzed you. I can, I will,
I'll do it right now. But like my job as
a psychopath is to own you. So here we go.
You have extraordinarily high executive function and memory, and as
a result, you are a nervous wreck and you always
will be. And I was like, just can I have
one of those sausages. I'll take a sausage now, please,
I mean, and it's absolutely the truth. And he was like,
hold out your hand, you know, for how long can
you make it not shake? And like, I gave it
a shot. But the truth is if I hold my
hand out for long enough, it'll start to shake because
I have anxiety. Yeah, that's really profound. And also, you know,
I think that motivates you too, though, you know, in
the same way that being a psychopath motivated James Fallon
into this incredible career, right, you know, and that is
also teaching us about psychopathy. You know, I tried to
get him Sam's brain, right, well, I try to get falon.
Speaker 3: Let's take another let's take one more break, yeah, and
we'll be right back.
Speaker 4: Okay. You tried to get in Sam's brain, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I would no, no, no, I tried to get his
actual oh, his actual brain.
Speaker 4: He tried to get his brain. Oh, yeah, have that challenge.
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't or it shouldn't have been, except
it was the middle of COVID when he died.
Speaker 4: He died, I haven't gotten to that.
Speaker 1: December thirtieth, twenty twenty, and there were like meat trucks
at the corner's office and I was his next of kin.
He had designated me as next of kin. No one
I know, but the plan was and he knew it.
I was like, I promise you I will like get
rid of your remains in a respectful way. I'm gonna
take your brain and take it to you see your vine,
and also to a guy at Stanford, because you don't
need the entire brain, just need like a little slice, right,
So I was entitled to that, But there's only so
much time, Like a body is decomposing, right, and the
brain is decomposing faster than anything else. And what they
would have I was like on the phone with them.
I was in the Corners parking lot with the meat
trucks in my mask, like pounding on their door, like
I am entitled to this. I'm sorry if this seems
foolish to you, but I want this brain. Yeah right,
I know. I was like, I'll take a hacks on myself,
but this brain needs to be stored under certain conditions.
And of course they're looking at me like are you
the weirdest person ever. And then you know what happened
a year later, when it all like play it out,
they call me and they said, we're sorry. We realized
that you should have been entitled Tis freaking Organs. That
was the point, right, you know, And but you know,
you do get actually all of his possessions, and we
have done you the favor of cremating him, and you
need to come and pick up these ashes. And my
ten year old at the time now eleven, was home
from school six with like a terrible fever and I
was like, yeah, the car, Wow, get in the car.
And he was like, where are we going, ma, And
I was like, we are going to the Coroner's office.
It is an extremely interesting historical building in Los Angeles. Also,
this is where they processed dead bodies. And he was like, nice, Ma,
we all want to go to the Chuck E Cheese
real nice. And I was like, you know what, dude,
this is my job. Okay, So if you don't want
to come with me and go pick up some serial
killer ashes, you get a job. And also I'll get
you some McNuggets now. But I think they probably were
surprised when I, you know, dragged my ten year old
up to the door with this sweaty, little fever hand
giving them the eye, you know, and like thank you
for the ashes. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3: Well, what was it like like in general being a
mom and having young kids? Yeah, and getting obviously so
wrapped up and like this is not a nine to
five job. This was probably like twenty four to seventh
thinking about this, and also the intensity of the subject
matter that you're dealing with, and you're you're taking on
the point of view of these victims and each one.
I mean, I can't imagine what that must have been like, like,
how did.
Speaker 1: You well, how did you mean that I did?
Speaker 4: And your husband got a tense job? Yeah, it's in Weezer.
Speaker 1: Yeah, my husband is a touring musician, right, but this
was COVID like the middle, like, I'm almost down with
the book COVID hits. My husband isn't working, he's a
touring musician, right, he's in Weezer. That sounds very fancy
to all of you, and it is very very fancy sometimes.
Speaker 2: Now your husband's and Duran Durant, that's not true, but
a lot of people think it is because his name
is John Taylor.
Speaker 1: I love John a lot of people do. It's not
the same John Taylor, Well, you don't have to admit that.
Speaker 4: I mean I don't.
Speaker 3: But then sometimes people feel robbed. I felt like they
can't believe that they literally have thought that.
Speaker 4: For ten years.
Speaker 1: It's news to them that he's actually not. But yeah,
you know, I actually have in my acknowledgments. So thank
you to Trevor Noah. And everyone's like Trevor Noah because
everyone like goes to the acknowledgments. You're thinking, I rather,
it's like different Trevor no It is a different there's
two Trevor Noahs.
Speaker 2: Yes, oh interesting, that's hilarious.
Speaker 1: My team he worked with, My research team is amazing.
But yeah, it's a different Trevor now. But I should
just say.
Speaker 4: Yeah, how many kids do you?
Speaker 1: Totally? Yeah, Trevor Noah was really helpful.
Speaker 4: How many?
Speaker 1: He's been a great supporter. I have two kids fifteen
and eleven. And what you're saying is what's it like
to be a mom? Yeah? It was different before COVID
because all of a sudden they were making a documentary
about me at that time, right, so Joe Berlinger was
making a documentary about my investigation process. And it's called
I'm like, it's called I Think Confronting a serial Killer,
and it is on all major streaming platforms right now.
And all of a sudden, they couldn't go to the city,
the other cities they had to go to. So I've
got two kids in the house now. I had it
managed so that, like they were out of the house
before the interviews were happening. We have an open floor plan.
You can hear anything that's going on. So like what
was going on is I was talking to a serial
killer for hours a day, and like, you don't you
really don't unless like I'm saying, you know, meaning purpose,
I would will stand on a soapbox on the corner
in downtown LA with this book and just say, please
hear these victims. See these victims never fall to passion
like this. But like to move my kids around like
they're a piece of furniture so they didn't have to
hear his voice, just because you know, we were just
all stuck in the house together. We had a COVID
truck in our driveway. Thank god. The COVID guy. I
was like, really got along with Jovie. They're playing tagment,
you know, So it felt like, oh, well, you know,
here's sort of this incredible like enclosed creative environment. And
also I'm the you know, I'm the victim. I'm victim.
One always like to have a camera up your nose
for every single second of these conversations, you know, and
and do interviews that are nine hours long. And I
mean it was it was incredibly difficult for my family.
And I think now, so fifteen seems to be about
the age that the kids start getting into true crime.
And so now my kid thinks he's cool because it,
I know, because his mom, you know, got a serial
killer to confess that. Now they you know, now it's cool.
But like, I also have kids who comment on my
Instagram like my mom won't let me buy your bo
I mean, I'm like, she's probably right, dude.
Speaker 3: I have a fifteen year old son, and I cannot
imagine him reading this.
Speaker 1: No, I mean, my kids don't read this. Yeah, they
don't read this. Yeah, but they know what I do. Yeah,
of course, you know. It's not like I'm like I'm
going to you know, volunteer at the Red Cross or something,
you know. Yeah, I mean, you know, I work in
difficult I work with difficult and fringe subject matter. You know,
I am difficult and fringe subject matter. I'm going to
change all my moments, change all my like bios to
that right now.
Speaker 3: So did you make I'm close to any of the
victims' families, Yes, and to Sam's family, you know, like
I became very close with his niece, who is just
I mean, if I could say, like the damage that
Sam did to my brain, to my family to just
like I just felt like I was in the ultimate ring.
Speaker 1: You know, it was one of the ways we connected.
Like I'm a big I'm a big fan of the fights.
I was raised that way. I can talk about, you know,
pound for pound, who you think is the best in
the world, you know, and you know, and that's how
I got to Sam was a boxer. He was a
boxer's a millweight boxer in prison, which at the time
in the fifties was you know, like a funnel into
the actual boxing world. So it was possible that he
could have, you know, been a successful boxer, except you
know what I mean, I just I can't say what
I really want to say right now. But he was
a coward at the end of the day, Like he
won and one and one and the minute he lost,
he got his lips split. He was so vain that
he threw his boxing gloves in the trash and never
picked him up again, and then just started picking on women.
That's when he started killing. Oh wow, yeah, And I'm
just like, really, you got your lips split like this tooth?
You know how expensive this tooth is, your front tooth?
You know how much it hurts? Right now, I press
on it like that because I got hit in the face.
I was boxing. I got hit in the face. I
just I just I rolled the wrong direction right into
an elbow and had to go to my dentist and
he was like, your teeth are so expensive. You've been
hitting the face so many times. Like I had to
get a root canal and have her replace. I know.
Speaker 4: We talked a lot, like it's a big topic for us.
Speaker 1: Serial killers and teeth, well, you know, they're not unrelated.
I mean seriously, they take you know, like the human
body becomes a thing they want to own, right, So,
like one thing Sam is. One thing that makes Sam
remarkable is he drew all his victims, right, So if
they had say a gold too, which was how they
just identified one of the victims, in Pasca Goula, Mississippi,
was that gold tooth, you know, and they were looking
for those remains and looking for that map, and they
got it. They just got it. You know. It's like
it seems every month I get to move a pin
on my board where I actually have a board. I
have a map, you know, because it was like ninety
three confessions sixty three now confirm sixty three women? Like
how many women?
Speaker 4: Is that easy?
Speaker 1: Like you have to actually look at it, and you know,
I would say, go draw, map, Go draw, you know,
and put your and put your marks on it, you know,
and then look at the thirty something odd that aren't
you know. I change them to black when they're solved,
and they're red when they're unsolved, you know. And I mean,
I don't know when that map will ever leave my life,
and I hope it will because I hope they close
all these cases. It's very unlikely that they'll close the
entire gap. But every month there's a salt, there's a
detective somewhere who cares and is fighting.
Speaker 3: So everybody needs to go buy this book, Behold the
Monster Jillian Lauren and where can we find you? On
social media? And what's next for you?
Speaker 1: You want to know it's next for me?
Speaker 4: Really?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to secretarial school.
Speaker 4: I'll stop it now.
Speaker 1: I that was what I That was the best I
could come up with at two am last night. You know,
you always have this like I need a day job,
and I'm like, I don't type fast enough, Like I
could easily get a job as an investigator, you know,
to do that. Well, I think I may, you know,
But also like what's next for me will always be writing.
But this investigation thing, it got me where, it got
me where it gets you. Like you know, when I think, oh,
I could just go write another book about anything else,
Like I'm really into sports, you know, and women's sports
in particularly I think are incredibly exciting now women's fighting
is really exciting right now. Also, I just want to
go on with Joe Rogan and just I just want
to count them. But I just want to give him
on one too. But you know, I'm like I could
do any of these things, and what I want to
do is keep working not on Sam Little's case forever.
Like right now, I invite all of you to read
the book. Yes, and also you know there are victims.
It's unsolved and more and more, you know, citizens not
necessarily you know, like or work in conjunction right with
law enforcement and and find people and you know, and
they're they're incredible group of citizens, sleuth's who just you know,
they're looking at the Charlie Project and the Dope Project
every day. So like this book is my invitation to
everyone to just like join join the fight and not
necessarily like it's a fight, but join the fight for
for an equitable justice system. How about that that doesn't
consider you know, certain victims. I mean in the eighties,
they would call these prostitutes. You know, they'd call the
murders in they were finding women in dumpsters every morning
in South LA and they would call them as an
A one eighty seven on you know, Fifth and Maine.
It's an NHI. No humans involved. Wow. Yeah, so I'm like,
there are humans involved. Like I felt a real passion
to humanize the victims in this book and also give
you know, the straight science and the details and I
mean the most unbelievably creepy interviews you could ever imagine.
Speaker 4: It's all that, Jillian, You're doing the Lord's work. You
really are. Thank you, yeah, and thank you for coming. Yeah,
thank you. And do you have a website? Is it
Jillian Laurence.
Speaker 1: Oh, come and yes, Jillianlauren dot com. I'm also a
Jillian Lauren author on many things and Insta I am
Jillian Lauren at Jillian Lauren uh and that you know.
And I've also been doing a TikTok. They my kids
forced me.
Speaker 6: I was like, absolutely not, but you know that, like
every post I do that's like a missing person gets
thousands of views and I'm like, that's thousands of people
that when I've seen that missing and they are going
to talk to their friend, They're gonna talk to their mother,
They're like somewhere it's gonna hit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I was like, fine, and I do
have my fifteen year old running the cameras helpful?
Speaker 3: Is that at Jillian Lauren at Jillian Lauren Okay, Jillian
learn author.
Speaker 4: Okay, there we go. All right, well you tick tk.
Speaker 1: I'm Jillie, I'm Jillian, I'm Jillian larn author.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, we will find you. Thanks so much for coming.
Speaker 3: Everybody, run run to wherever you buy your book hooks
and grab behold the monster.
Speaker 4: Yeah all right, bye, everybody, it's
Speaker 1: Good that angle,