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Speaker 1: Made a decision a face sunny sun on I had

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o visione nice two weeks.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Thursday, Special guest episode of A for Crying

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Out Loud And we have a special guest in studio

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Jillian Lauren, who, by the way, is one of our

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most memorable I just told her this off air, one

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of our most memorable guests that we've ever had on

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for Crying Out Loud of all time.

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Speaker 3: Yes, she wrote the book Some Girls about her time

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in a harem and you told us the whole story.

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Speaker 4: And it's a beautifully written book.

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Speaker 3: That book too, Yes, and it's so it was so

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honest and like but entertaining, like we were just talking

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about before, and uh, I feel like kind of a

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breakthrough book.

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Speaker 4: That book did really well, right did Yeah? It was

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a great know.

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Speaker 1: It was like they were just throwing spaghetti at the wall.

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They were like, sure, you're a slut, and maybe this

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book will do Like it was like maybe something will happen.

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And it was the little engine that could. You know.

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It's like, you know, it blew up and it's been

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translated in eighteen languages and I always think, you know,

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everyone's like, oh, you know, you just have this wild life,

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this wild wildlife. I'm like, I do it's true, you know,

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I guess if you it doesn't feel like it right

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when it's your life, right right? But also you know

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I'm a writer, yes, right, you know plenty of people

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have wild lives.

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Speaker 3: You were already a writer before you went, before you

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wrote some Girls, you were already right or correct?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean I wouldn't say I would have identified

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that way like i'd be. I think my passport actually

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said performance artist. Oh yeah, and that might be actually

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closer to the truth than anything else. But yeah, I

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had a passport that said my occupation was performance artist.

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Speaker 2: Can I we just revisit that for one second for

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people that don't know, how did you end up in

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a harem?

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Speaker 1: Well, I was trying to be an actor. I was

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living in New York. Is this how every horrible story starts?

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It really is, isn't it. And I went to college

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very early. I went to college when I was sixteen,

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so I was at NYU, you know. And as my

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fifteen year old son says, now, I don't think that

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was a very good idea, mom. It doesn't sound very safe, mom,

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And I'm like, oh, thank you, Lauren, like I did

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something right, and it definitely wasn't that. But you know,

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I left Yu. I was going on these auditions, and

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I was working on a vampire movie, Victim one every time,

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like always the victim, never the purb Victim one great tagline,

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and I made it right there on the spot. You know,

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I had a tear away cheerleader uniform, like I was

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running through some beach in the Hamptons and freezing cold

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with you know, a cheerleader uniform that came off races right.

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And there I met a young woman who also was

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in the same kind of you know, trying to make

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it and also doing everything you have to do to

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live in New York, which is basically donate a kidney.

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And she was like, you are ruining your knees acting

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like a stripper. And I actually have this audition that

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you know, you can make way more money in shorter time.

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And I was like, oh, this friend, this new friend,

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and I went. I went to the audition and I

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got it, and then they called me and said, actually

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that was an audition. It was an invitation to come

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to the parties of the richest man in the world,

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which he's been knocked off into like number four.

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Speaker 4: Now, oh oh, but he's still up there.

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Speaker 1: He's still up there.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I mean they have such oil reserves. It's really about resources, right,

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It's tiny country.

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Speaker 4: But so did you know anything about it at the time.

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Speaker 1: I never even heard of it. Right.

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Speaker 3: They were like, you're tidy, right, all right? How much money?

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Speaker 1: Well you know it was they said twenty thousand dollars

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for two weeks, and I was like, I've never heard

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that amount of money before in my life. I mean,

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I left for Bruni three days after I was eighteen.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, wow.

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Speaker 1: And I had already been trying to support myself in

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New York and I was just like, this is gonna

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be a breeze and a half. And they're like all

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you do is sing songs and dance, and I'm like,

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I'm pretty sure that's not all I'm gonna have to do.

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Speaker 4: But so you did this fact.

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Speaker 1: I'm not an idiot, but I'm not a diplomat, so

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I know I thought probably, yeah, that you know, there

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was going to be some shady ship going on, and

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there absolutely was and did for the next year and

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a half.

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Speaker 4: But I remember you said that Prince Jeffrey was that same.

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Speaker 1: Yes, Prince Jeffrey, you never called him that. They have

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to call him Robin, Robin Robin, I know, isn't It's

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like so lame like the Sultan. You had to call

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him martyr. I know. I was like like my uncle Marty,

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like if you can just pick well because they all

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know Rob, Yeah, you have to call Robin.

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Speaker 4: I can't call him like Greg or like I know.

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Speaker 1: Hardy, know, like just Chris Elmsworth his mind head.

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Speaker 4: You said he was kind of cute, right like you

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were he was.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, I'm a little short for me.

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He always said, wear flats. I was like, I'd rather die,

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but you know, little short. And but he was thirty

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thirty something, early thirties when I was, you know, in

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my very I'm just like not early Jean, like my

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late teens, right, and uh, you know that just seemed

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like so old.

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Speaker 4: Any younger ones around, any younger guys.

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Speaker 1: Well, he had an entourage, okay, but all of them

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had girlfriends within this harem. So it was just a

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big party every single night, right right. And but like

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his entourage, there were maybe ten of them. Sometime I

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liked one than others, you know, some were cool, but

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they would have a girlfriend there. But like if you

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were Prince Jeffrey's girlfriend, then you were not up for grabs.

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Speaker 3: I feel like in the story, I mean, I read

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it so long ago, but I feel like I remember

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that you were you kind of were in and out

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of favor, like you were uh huh, like you were

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you were the prize. You were like number one for

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a little while right now, No number number two, oh number.

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Speaker 2: Two, okay, and two weeks led more and it did

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not end up being two weeks, a year and a half,

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eighteen months, wow, jesus, I know.

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Speaker 4: And then you went home and didn't you go back?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Yes, I went, and I went back like there

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was this I had this whole I know. It's you know,

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it's actually like if you're talking about sex trafficking, right,

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which I don't tend to like hit that really hard

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because I feel it's the minute that people stop listening,

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you know. But I was a teenager, yeah, you know,

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and I was, you know, very quickly sort of drawn

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into this thing that was presented as one thing and

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then it was actually another thing. I mean, and when

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I talk about it, I always say, you know, I

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know it sounds like when you read the shopping chapter,

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like when I got sent shopping in Singapore and they

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closed down all the malls and I had a guard

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with me with the Louis Vuitton sack full of cash,

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just saying like hitch and now hit like every designer

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store and get everything you want. I was like that

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mom at Toys r Us or whatever, right that is

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now just like they're like, you have fifteen minutes to

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get every single cabbage batch kit and like they read

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that and go like wow, it sounds so glamorous and fantastic,

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and I wish I could do that. And then, you know,

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I mean the truth was And also now I look

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back and I'm like, could you be a little more fun?

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Like does everything have to be a bummer? And we

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can move into my next book with that so much time?

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Does have to be a bummer? I came. You know,

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everyone's like, oh the shopping trip where you get to

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buy every Harmanny gown there's no price limit. I'm throwing

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Chanell purses at them like just these and that one too.

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That also and that sounds like your dream. But like

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really what I did was go home after that and

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just like cry right, because you know, there were fifteen

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suitcases in front of me and I was not an idiot,

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not then or not ever. And I was like, this

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is disgusting, you know, like, yes, I did just get

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to run through the mall and throw Chanell purses, you know,

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and I did the dumbest thing. Do you want to

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know what I did? Yeah? Like, I was like, I

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just have to Clint. I had one of those Marie

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Condo moments. Don't do it. I was like, this doesn't

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bring me joy to touch this Chanelle person. I'm giving

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it to my babysitter. I'm giving them all to my babysitter,

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all of it. I know, I have like one thing left.

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Wow would I say? But I was just like I

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gave it all away, right, And I mean I can't

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say you know that that process for me was you know,

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I'm like, dumb ass, you couldn't have sold it in

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the real reel. But also kind of I don't know

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that there would have been enough money right like then

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to pay for me just saying fuck you, this isn't

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ever what really mattered to me. Do you feel like

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writing the book in some ways helped you process? You

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know what you went through and maybe some of the

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trauma from that like helped you figure out a way

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to look at it, or do you think it was

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more time? Like now as a real grown woman, you

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can run back and gown as woman. Yeah, I know

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I hate that I'm assuming ass woman. I think that

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writing is not therapy. However, the writing process for me

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has given me a way to frame the world, right,

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it has given It's given me a reason to pay attention.

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And and yes I was a writer ish when I

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went to Breni, but really I started being a writer

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there frankly because it was so damn boring, you know.

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And all of a sudden my journal has turned into

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and not like I need to lose five pounds and

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Chris is real cute, and you know, I really need

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to do better in juggling class, you know, an experimental

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theater school. You know how much I impressed my kids

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my juggling skills. Now, you never know these things are

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gonna juggle.

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Speaker 4: You can judge these.

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Speaker 1: Things are gonna turn out.

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Speaker 4: I can juggle a little bit, only three, I can juggle.

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Speaker 1: I can juggle three, all right, I can do all

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juggle three juggle. I don't make me add a fourth

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and why. But really, I don't think writing is therapy.

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I think you need therapy for the writing. However, like

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writing has given me meaning, yeah, as a person and

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as an artist, and a way to grapple with stuff

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that you know. I've been talking to my husband lately.

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I'm like, did you even know that this, this, and

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this happened? And he's like, not, Like that was not

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one of the things you mentioned in the nineteen episodes

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of sexual abuse or you know. Writing has given me

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a way to take that narrative right and make it mine.

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I can't say it fixed it fixed me, or it

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was cathartic, or but it's given me a purpose in life. Well,

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let I think let's take a quick break and we'll

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get to her new book.

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Speaker 3: Okay, we're back. So you've written some books in between.

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This book is something very different for you. And it's

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called Behold the Monster, a very attention grabbing title, I think,

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and it's about the serial killer Sam Little and you,

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like a lot of us, especially women, were already into

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true crime, already fascinated by true crime.

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Speaker 4: I want to hear. I have read some of this

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book so far.

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Speaker 3: I only got the book full disclosure a couple of

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days ago, but I've already it's already can't put it down.

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My husband was like, what are you reading? Like constantly,

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like every few minutes. I was like picking the book

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back up, and he's like, what is that. I was like,

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she's going to be a guest on our show, and

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it's so good.

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Speaker 4: And this book has everything.

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Speaker 3: So it's basically how you found this case and how

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you got into it, and then your interviews with detectives

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and your own research, but a lot of it is

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and then your meetings with this serial killer, which I

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want to hear all about. But then also, as the

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beautiful writer that you are, you there are all of

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these chapters in the books where you put yourself in

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the body of the victims and told their story as

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best as you could put it together. So I mean,

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just just like, start at the beginning, tell us how

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it came about.

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Speaker 4: I highly recommend this book. It's amazing.

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Speaker 1: I highly recommend this book too. And I've never felt

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about any of my books like I'm not a message

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driven writer, you know, I'm not like writing a book

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to convince you of something, or like I'm I'm like

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sharing an experience of life in this world and my

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unique I for detail, perhaps you know, is all I

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ever hoped for. But I've never stood on a soapbox before,

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and I will do it for this book. Because I

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started by working on a novel. I was writing a

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mystery novel. I have been obsessed with mysteries. I've read

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every Agatha Christie book before I was twelve years old.

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And I just asked myself, you know, I'm a little

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bit sick of me being the center of the narrative

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right like everything it's like memoir memoir. And I also

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do have a lovely little novel called Pretty in there,

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but what has really caught fire had been my memoirs.

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And I was like, I want out, I want out

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of this story. So I'm going to do this audacious thing.

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I was writing a fiction book. I got an interview

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with this incredible detective. Her name is Mitzi Roberts. She

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works at the Homicide Division here in LA which is

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they're the fancy detectives that you see in all the shows.

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And actually, if you're a reader of Michael Connolly, who's

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been a great champion of this book, and everyone is

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a reader of Michael Connolly, I think his character, Renee Ballard,

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is based on Mitsy Roberts, and through Michael, I was

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able to get this coveted interview with like the hottest

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detective and I was talking to her about the Black

275
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Dahlia case. I was talking to her about historical cases.

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And at the very end of the interview, because I'd

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like to leave it on a high note, I said,

278
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you know, what, are you the most proud of She said,

279
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I'm proud of them all. But I did catch this

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serial killer once, and that was pretty cool. I was

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just like, I blew this entire interview. You're like, what what?

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I buried the lead? I blew the whole interview. All

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the iced tea is like down to the water, you know.

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And I was just like, all right, give it to

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me quick. You know. You're like, let's try to learn

286
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exactly feeling a need for some I don't even know

287
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what dessert is. But she did tell me, and I

288
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went and looked him up, Samuel Little, and she told

289
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me he was an underreported serial killer. They got him

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on three counts of murder, and they did it through

291
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a grant through the Department of Justice. As forensics have advanced,

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you know, we can look at cold case evidence in

293
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a new way with new material. And so they were able.

294
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They got a hit, they got to hit, they got

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another hit, and now you have a serial killer. And

296
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so you know, I said, I called my editor at

297
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New York Magazine and was like, I got a serial

298
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killer here. And she was like, we're not doing another

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gruesome like serial killer story. You're gonna have to have

300
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an angle, and uh, I was like, okay, an angle.

301
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I'm I'm going to talk to this guy. And so

302
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I started writing him, which is how you do it,

303
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because you can't just like walk into a maximum scary.

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Speaker 4: I'm here to Samuel.

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Speaker 1: Yes, I would like to see sam Nile, who I may.

306
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It made me like take my nose rings out at

307
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the oh de Wayne. Worst was when I first showed

308
00:22:01,759 --> 00:22:05,319
up at the prison. You know, my aunt is a

309
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famous psychiatrist, and she told me just it's gonna be

310
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what it's gonna be, and like she sounded sad when I.

311
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Speaker 5: Was like, what's going to be, Like, what's going to

312
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be like to talk to a psychopath?

313
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Speaker 1: And she said, it's going to be like this. He's

314
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gonna ask you for your shirt off your back and

315
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you're gonna give him the shirt off your back, and

316
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at the same time he's going to be telling you

317
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he is stealing the shirt off your back, and you

318
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will still feel compelled to give it to him. And

319
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I thought that was probably the best summation of what

320
00:22:47,599 --> 00:22:51,920
my entire experience over years was with him. Is a

321
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:59,960
fabulous it's a fabulous opportunity for a journalist to how

322
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:06,039
hundreds of hours of interviews, not three It takes more

323
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than three hours to kind of.

324
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Speaker 3: Get it right. So you wrote him back and forth

325
00:23:11,559 --> 00:23:13,319
and then tell us about I thought it was so

326
00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:15,160
it's so good in the book. Tell us about like

327
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:19,400
your first visit, you were so nervous you had brought

328
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:25,160
tell us what you brought because quarters okay, so she's

329
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:27,279
looking at me like I don't know what I brought him, like.

330
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Speaker 1: I'm like, what do I bring? Well, no, actually I

331
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:35,559
still have that you can bring a clear like purse

332
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or plastic bag. Right, So the first time I actually

333
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,200
showed up with like a baggie, But then I went

334
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to Target and got myself the proper clear purse because

335
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:53,039
you were not cool if you just had a baggie, right,

336
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And well, I know enough scumbags who have done time that.

337
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:01,279
I called them and I said, like, what do I do?

338
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And they said, bring quarters for the vending machines, because

339
00:24:06,279 --> 00:24:10,519
you're not cool if your visitor doesn't bring quarters and

340
00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:20,319
your visitor is in some way in prison, like of value. Right,

341
00:24:21,319 --> 00:24:26,519
like right, here's this put together woman showing up to

342
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:30,400
visit me, and she I mean put together. It's like,

343
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,480
I don't even know what that sounds like. But you know,

344
00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:43,599
let's just say aspirationally attractive. It's a Hollywood word for

345
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:49,960
like cute but not too cute, showing up with quarters

346
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,400
for the vending machines. Thank you, Sasha, wherever you may be,

347
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:04,160
and you know, buying you wings and funians and little

348
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Debby cakes.

349
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,559
Speaker 3: Okay, so this is really off topic, but it was

350
00:25:07,599 --> 00:25:09,440
a question that came to my mind reading the book.

351
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:11,279
Speaker 4: So the chicken wings.

352
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Speaker 3: So did they were they like not cooked yet? Because

353
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:20,039
did you have to put them clear? Or you brought it?

354
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:25,319
Speaker 1: No? I know you can't bring chicken wings. Okay, you

355
00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:30,680
can bring this a clear plastic baggie and if you're cool,

356
00:25:30,839 --> 00:25:35,480
I suggest you go to Target and buy one. But

357
00:25:35,559 --> 00:25:37,240
you could also bring it in a plast.

358
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Speaker 4: Pack, so you can bring wings there, Yes, in a

359
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:41,839
vending machine.

360
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:48,680
Speaker 1: I know, right. This was very surprising for me because

361
00:25:48,759 --> 00:25:51,799
I get my ideas about serial killers from the same

362
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:57,599
place we do TV, right, And it's the same thing

363
00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:01,119
with police work, you know, like you think a DNA

364
00:26:01,400 --> 00:26:05,480
goes through in like five and a half seconds. It No,

365
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,160
it does. For an episode that someone's writing, it really

366
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:16,240
digs like three years. The backup is so intense. What

367
00:26:16,279 --> 00:26:17,319
did Sam do? What?

368
00:26:17,519 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 4: What was his kit?

369
00:26:18,559 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: In?

370
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:18,759
Speaker 2: What?

371
00:26:19,079 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 1: Years? Okay? And where? Excellent question? Who who is this man?

372
00:26:28,799 --> 00:26:31,599
And what did he do? This man? And I went

373
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in to visit and also, yes, I was extremely surprised

374
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:42,119
that there were microwaves for the wings you could buy

375
00:26:43,000 --> 00:26:46,480
in the vending machines, but only the visitors can use

376
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the microwaves.

377
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Speaker 4: Okay, Okay, I don't want to get bogged down in

378
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:50,960
chicken wings.

379
00:26:51,319 --> 00:26:54,559
Speaker 1: You get to the killer, no, But it was like,

380
00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:00,240
I'll get to the killings right now, because I'm I mean,

381
00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:04,279
this is the point where the killings started to like

382
00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:11,119
pour forth. But I was expecting like the phone and

383
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:15,759
the glass and the whole thing. And no, I was

384
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:19,480
in the family visiting room like you know with convicts

385
00:27:19,559 --> 00:27:24,480
and their babies, right, you know, and and a giant

386
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:29,079
section for legos, like for the kids to play, like

387
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,279
you could give this man a hug. Oh yeah, I

388
00:27:32,359 --> 00:27:32,880
hugged him.

389
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,279
Speaker 4: But he was a serial killer, Like you, weren't you

390
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,640
scared that he might like what if he was like,

391
00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:41,160
oh good, I have access to a woman.

392
00:27:41,799 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: Well he planned, he planned that I'd be as last victim.

393
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,880
I mean, he told me as much, and I could.

394
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:56,960
But also I know how to talk to people like

395
00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:01,480
if you just take if you just take all the weirdness.

396
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 2: Out, like the serial killing weirdness, forget about.

397
00:28:09,079 --> 00:28:15,039
Speaker 1: Forget about a downfalls and the serial killing right, and

398
00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:19,720
the African adoptions and all the rest of it. You know,

399
00:28:20,319 --> 00:28:23,000
every single thing is just being present in the moment.

400
00:28:23,759 --> 00:28:27,440
And what I did was I remember the names of

401
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,720
the guards right and ask them about their kids. And

402
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:35,440
I was always in the same place because they're always recording.

403
00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:43,000
Everything I ever did was Sam was recorded. And but

404
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,839
I felt like I could calculate there were this many

405
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:51,000
meters between me and the guard, and how long does

406
00:28:51,039 --> 00:28:56,319
it take to strangle someone? Because the thing is that,

407
00:28:57,119 --> 00:29:01,359
to answer your question, Sam was a sexual strangler. Sam

408
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:09,319
could Samuel little like sex for him with strangulation to

409
00:29:09,359 --> 00:29:14,440
the point of death and as long and painful as

410
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:17,799
you could possibly make it. Like he would give CPR

411
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,200
to his victims to bring them back, just to put

412
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,680
them down again because and what it was like, and

413
00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,880
that would be you know, I mean.

414
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:35,480
Speaker 2: What year was he doing these killings in Los Angeles?

415
00:29:36,759 --> 00:29:40,599
Speaker 1: Well, Los Angeles was what he called his killing fields.

416
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,319
And that is because in the eighties here in Los

417
00:29:44,359 --> 00:29:54,319
Angeles a number of things happened. Crack happened. We have

418
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:59,359
the first swat team in the nation, so all of

419
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,640
a sudden, after the Watts riots in the sixties, you know,

420
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:12,680
there are tanks in the streets of a city, and

421
00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,680
that was the first time paramilitary tactics had been used.

422
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:25,960
So there were far more, like far steeper sentences for

423
00:30:26,559 --> 00:30:32,319
drugs used in minority communities. It left an entire population

424
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:36,039
of women with their asses hanging out on Figaro Street,

425
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:42,680
not knowing what to do, and they were the easiest targets.

426
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:49,240
So Sam started in seventy one. His last murder was

427
00:30:49,319 --> 00:30:50,759
two thousand and five.

428
00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 4: Wow.

429
00:30:53,079 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, he had a really successful and long career if

430
00:30:57,000 --> 00:30:57,759
you want to look at it.

431
00:30:57,799 --> 00:31:01,119
Speaker 3: That we said, like over ninety victims, right, So ninety

432
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,400
three confessions.

433
00:31:05,079 --> 00:31:09,359
Speaker 1: And those were those were not all mine. I you know,

434
00:31:10,079 --> 00:31:14,960
like I got him talking, I kept him talking. I

435
00:31:16,319 --> 00:31:21,440
observed the entire judicial process that was happening. He was

436
00:31:21,480 --> 00:31:26,759
not on my only subject in this book, but you know,

437
00:31:27,119 --> 00:31:34,119
certainly a very impactful one. And you know, so there

438
00:31:34,119 --> 00:31:40,400
were ninety three confessions, and I happened to I just

439
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:43,759
happened to land in the middle of this federal investigation.

440
00:31:44,319 --> 00:31:48,240
Like I was, like, I got the underreported serial killer.

441
00:31:48,599 --> 00:31:51,240
Well guess what, You're not the only one. There was

442
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:56,559
also a cowboy. There is also a Texas ranger who

443
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:01,119
is six three six seven in his hat who is

444
00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:06,920
getting these confessions out of Sam and is supposedly, like,

445
00:32:07,079 --> 00:32:12,559
you know, the serial killer whisperer in the country. They

446
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:16,200
just needed a Texas case for him to be able

447
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:20,680
to start interviewing Sam. So, you know, in a way,

448
00:32:20,759 --> 00:32:26,319
I was observing the whole investigation. I wasn't just getting

449
00:32:26,319 --> 00:32:32,799
confessions from him. But you know what he did was

450
00:32:34,279 --> 00:32:38,599
you know, he had a very trajectory that's very similar

451
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:42,759
to what we're all familiar with, the bundies, the gacies.

452
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:50,799
You know, there's usually childhood sexual trauma, there's often traumatic

453
00:32:50,839 --> 00:32:53,559
brain injury. Now, get hit in the front of the

454
00:32:53,599 --> 00:32:58,880
head enough times, that's where our impulse control lies, right,

455
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:08,599
and born with a certain genetic like perfect storm, right,

456
00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:16,119
including them aoajen the warrior gene which cops also mostly have,

457
00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:23,079
which you know people in the military have. But you know,

458
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:28,599
pick your sides. So he was he became obsessed with necks,

459
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:33,319
you know. And he'll tell you a million stories. Why

460
00:33:34,079 --> 00:33:38,680
was it was the little redhead girl in his kindergarten class.

461
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:43,359
It was, you know, who just gave him snotty looks

462
00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,599
right and was just a bitch. And he always talked

463
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,319
like he would do a woman voice, you know, and.

464
00:33:53,319 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 5: Just talk with such vicious bitchery. There was such hatred there. Wow,

465
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,960
So at what point I have two questions.

466
00:34:08,280 --> 00:34:11,320
Speaker 3: One, this is a quick side note, But you interviewed

467
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:17,079
this guy, this doctor James Fallon. So my husband, he's

468
00:34:17,199 --> 00:34:22,639
basically this doctor who who tested himself, who like is

469
00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,960
famous for talking about psychopathy versus sociopaths, like sociopaths versus psychopaths,

470
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,239
and he there's like a test and he tested himself

471
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:34,920
and found out that he was a psychopath.

472
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 4: I know this guy, but he's non violent, right, right,

473
00:34:41,079 --> 00:34:42,039
You can be a nod by.

474
00:34:42,119 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 1: He says, I've actually threatened him. I was like, I

475
00:34:46,039 --> 00:34:49,239
just think you'd be the best character, Like what if

476
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,239
you were really And I'm not saying this about doctor Fallon.

477
00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:59,719
He is a phenomenal intellect and one of the most

478
00:35:00,159 --> 00:35:03,920
interesting interviews of my life, and I hope to talk

479
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,239
to him again. But I told him, you know what

480
00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:13,000
if What happened was he was doing two different studies

481
00:35:13,159 --> 00:35:15,920
in his graduate studies. He was studying, you know, the

482
00:35:15,960 --> 00:35:19,400
effects of Alzheimer's on the brain, and he was using

483
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:25,880
pet scans, right, and also psychopathy. And then there was

484
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:35,119
just he used his family as a control, right, And

485
00:35:35,159 --> 00:35:37,239
then he was like, well, one of the one of

486
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:43,360
the wrong things wound up in this pile, like one

487
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:45,519
of the things from my family wound up in the

488
00:35:45,679 --> 00:35:49,280
psychopath pile. And then he was like, oh, it's me.

489
00:35:50,960 --> 00:35:54,960
And he wound to his mom and was like, is

490
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:59,480
have you thought this all along? And they were like, yeah,

491
00:35:59,559 --> 00:36:03,400
well we all kind of knew there's something wrong with you.

492
00:36:04,559 --> 00:36:09,440
This sounds like about right, but yeah, he's a nonviolent psychopathy.

493
00:36:09,639 --> 00:36:16,000
You know, psychopathy, sociopathy. There are ideas that they're the

494
00:36:16,039 --> 00:36:20,440
same thing that they're different things. Really, the diagnosis is

495
00:36:20,519 --> 00:36:26,199
antisocial personality disorder right, right, And that does show up

496
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:30,400
like if you're if you're scanning a brain, you're going

497
00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:35,559
to have way less activity in your frontal lobe, right,

498
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:40,039
which is like our executive functioning. That's what lets us

499
00:36:40,079 --> 00:36:45,039
think critically and say like maybe even if you want

500
00:36:45,039 --> 00:36:53,400
to kill, don't kill, right, you just don't kill people.

501
00:36:56,320 --> 00:37:03,239
And also, you know, less less functioning in the imandola

502
00:37:03,519 --> 00:37:07,880
and the sort of reptile brain that we have. That's

503
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:12,400
you know, our fight or flight response, you know, because

504
00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:16,960
they're predators, you know, it's it's a it's a kill

505
00:37:18,559 --> 00:37:19,840
response to the world.

506
00:37:20,639 --> 00:37:24,559
Speaker 3: So my husband interviewed doctor Fallon as well, like years ago,

507
00:37:25,119 --> 00:37:27,480
and had told me he was working on some show

508
00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:29,119
and he came home and he was like, oh my gosh,

509
00:37:29,159 --> 00:37:32,519
I interviewed this guy and he's so interesting, Irvine. But

510
00:37:32,559 --> 00:37:34,519
he was like, and this is before I read this

511
00:37:34,559 --> 00:37:37,519
part of your book. I said, oh, there's a chapter

512
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:40,119
about this doctor that I remember is the same one

513
00:37:40,159 --> 00:37:40,519
you saw.

514
00:37:40,599 --> 00:37:43,199
Speaker 4: And he was like, oh, yeah, he's so weird, he said.

515
00:37:43,199 --> 00:37:45,760
Speaker 3: He greeted me in these like short shorts and put

516
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,960
out this like charcuterie board, and he's like and then

517
00:37:49,039 --> 00:37:50,760
he like was looking at me while he was like

518
00:37:50,840 --> 00:37:54,360
cutting sausage, like, and then I started reading the book.

519
00:37:54,360 --> 00:37:57,159
I was like, John, John, I go and I read

520
00:37:57,199 --> 00:37:59,880
them the thing about the charcuterie board and the saucet

521
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,840
a sausage of Job's like, oh my god, nothing's changed,

522
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,119
and he goes, you must ask her if he was

523
00:38:05,159 --> 00:38:10,039
wearing short shorts now he was like, I could basically

524
00:38:10,039 --> 00:38:11,960
see his balls while he was doing that.

525
00:38:12,199 --> 00:38:19,079
Speaker 1: I definitely would have probably fucking with him.

526
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: I don't know, honestly, Like, no, he was. He was

527
00:38:23,119 --> 00:38:26,840
like the perfect teddy bear. That's so funny, you know.

528
00:38:27,000 --> 00:38:30,800
Speaker 1: And then he took me apart. He took me apart

529
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,119
in that interview. You know, he said like hold out

530
00:38:34,119 --> 00:38:40,039
your hand, and you know I have extreme anxiety. I know,

531
00:38:40,119 --> 00:38:45,559
I know that's really hard to believe. But he's like, listen,

532
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,480
you know everyone wants a pet scan, right and my

533
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:54,559
job here is not psychoanalyzed you. I can, I will,

534
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,079
I'll do it right now. But like my job as

535
00:38:58,159 --> 00:39:03,119
a psychopath is to own you. So here we go.

536
00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:09,679
You have extraordinarily high executive function and memory, and as

537
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:13,760
a result, you are a nervous wreck and you always

538
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:20,880
will be. And I was like, just can I have

539
00:39:20,960 --> 00:39:26,639
one of those sausages. I'll take a sausage now, please,

540
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,840
I mean, and it's absolutely the truth. And he was like,

541
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,840
hold out your hand, you know, for how long can

542
00:39:35,920 --> 00:39:41,559
you make it not shake? And like, I gave it

543
00:39:41,599 --> 00:39:43,960
a shot. But the truth is if I hold my

544
00:39:44,039 --> 00:39:47,639
hand out for long enough, it'll start to shake because

545
00:39:47,760 --> 00:39:53,119
I have anxiety. Yeah, that's really profound. And also, you know,

546
00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:56,559
I think that motivates you too, though, you know, in

547
00:39:56,599 --> 00:40:01,679
the same way that being a psychopath motivated James Fallon

548
00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:06,159
into this incredible career, right, you know, and that is

549
00:40:06,199 --> 00:40:10,039
also teaching us about psychopathy. You know, I tried to

550
00:40:10,039 --> 00:40:13,880
get him Sam's brain, right, well, I try to get falon.

551
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,639
Speaker 3: Let's take another let's take one more break, yeah, and

552
00:40:17,679 --> 00:40:18,519
we'll be right back.

553
00:40:21,079 --> 00:40:23,519
Speaker 4: Okay. You tried to get in Sam's brain, Yeah.

554
00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 1: I would no, no, no, I tried to get his

555
00:40:25,519 --> 00:40:26,880
actual oh, his actual brain.

556
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 4: He tried to get his brain. Oh, yeah, have that challenge.

557
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: You know, it wasn't or it shouldn't have been, except

558
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,039
it was the middle of COVID when he died.

559
00:40:39,079 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 4: He died, I haven't gotten to that.

560
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:48,320
Speaker 1: December thirtieth, twenty twenty, and there were like meat trucks

561
00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:54,119
at the corner's office and I was his next of kin.

562
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:58,760
He had designated me as next of kin. No one

563
00:40:59,199 --> 00:41:03,480
I know, but the plan was and he knew it.

564
00:41:04,159 --> 00:41:09,079
I was like, I promise you I will like get

565
00:41:09,159 --> 00:41:12,639
rid of your remains in a respectful way. I'm gonna

566
00:41:12,679 --> 00:41:16,559
take your brain and take it to you see your vine,

567
00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:18,960
and also to a guy at Stanford, because you don't

568
00:41:19,000 --> 00:41:22,119
need the entire brain, just need like a little slice, right,

569
00:41:24,639 --> 00:41:28,760
So I was entitled to that, But there's only so

570
00:41:28,880 --> 00:41:33,119
much time, Like a body is decomposing, right, and the

571
00:41:33,199 --> 00:41:36,760
brain is decomposing faster than anything else. And what they

572
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,519
would have I was like on the phone with them.

573
00:41:40,000 --> 00:41:44,840
I was in the Corners parking lot with the meat

574
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:49,280
trucks in my mask, like pounding on their door, like

575
00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:55,000
I am entitled to this. I'm sorry if this seems

576
00:41:55,119 --> 00:42:01,880
foolish to you, but I want this brain. Yeah right,

577
00:42:02,760 --> 00:42:05,679
I know. I was like, I'll take a hacks on myself,

578
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,159
but this brain needs to be stored under certain conditions.

579
00:42:09,519 --> 00:42:13,599
And of course they're looking at me like are you

580
00:42:13,760 --> 00:42:17,360
the weirdest person ever. And then you know what happened

581
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:22,599
a year later, when it all like play it out,

582
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:28,199
they call me and they said, we're sorry. We realized

583
00:42:28,239 --> 00:42:33,360
that you should have been entitled Tis freaking Organs. That

584
00:42:33,679 --> 00:42:39,360
was the point, right, you know, And but you know,

585
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:44,440
you do get actually all of his possessions, and we

586
00:42:44,599 --> 00:42:47,800
have done you the favor of cremating him, and you

587
00:42:47,880 --> 00:42:50,400
need to come and pick up these ashes. And my

588
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:55,440
ten year old at the time now eleven, was home

589
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:59,440
from school six with like a terrible fever and I

590
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:04,639
was like, yeah, the car, Wow, get in the car.

591
00:43:05,559 --> 00:43:08,599
And he was like, where are we going, ma, And

592
00:43:08,639 --> 00:43:10,840
I was like, we are going to the Coroner's office.

593
00:43:11,039 --> 00:43:18,639
It is an extremely interesting historical building in Los Angeles. Also,

594
00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:23,639
this is where they processed dead bodies. And he was like, nice, Ma,

595
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:26,280
we all want to go to the Chuck E Cheese

596
00:43:26,800 --> 00:43:30,679
real nice. And I was like, you know what, dude,

597
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,960
this is my job. Okay, So if you don't want

598
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:36,440
to come with me and go pick up some serial

599
00:43:36,519 --> 00:43:40,840
killer ashes, you get a job. And also I'll get

600
00:43:40,840 --> 00:43:46,280
you some McNuggets now. But I think they probably were

601
00:43:46,360 --> 00:43:50,440
surprised when I, you know, dragged my ten year old

602
00:43:50,599 --> 00:43:54,760
up to the door with this sweaty, little fever hand

603
00:43:56,159 --> 00:43:59,679
giving them the eye, you know, and like thank you

604
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,480
for the ashes. Oh my gosh.

605
00:44:03,559 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 3: Well, what was it like like in general being a

606
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:10,159
mom and having young kids? Yeah, and getting obviously so

607
00:44:11,000 --> 00:44:12,880
wrapped up and like this is not a nine to

608
00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,599
five job. This was probably like twenty four to seventh

609
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:19,639
thinking about this, and also the intensity of the subject

610
00:44:19,639 --> 00:44:22,559
matter that you're dealing with, and you're you're taking on

611
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:26,000
the point of view of these victims and each one.

612
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:28,639
I mean, I can't imagine what that must have been like, like,

613
00:44:28,639 --> 00:44:29,119
how did.

614
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 1: You well, how did you mean that I did?

615
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:34,559
Speaker 4: And your husband got a tense job? Yeah, it's in Weezer.

616
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:41,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, my husband is a touring musician, right, but this

617
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:46,840
was COVID like the middle, like, I'm almost down with

618
00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:53,000
the book COVID hits. My husband isn't working, he's a

619
00:44:53,039 --> 00:44:57,519
touring musician, right, he's in Weezer. That sounds very fancy

620
00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:04,599
to all of you, and it is very very fancy sometimes.

621
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:09,159
Speaker 2: Now your husband's and Duran Durant, that's not true, but

622
00:45:09,199 --> 00:45:11,199
a lot of people think it is because his name

623
00:45:11,239 --> 00:45:11,880
is John Taylor.

624
00:45:12,519 --> 00:45:16,440
Speaker 1: I love John a lot of people do. It's not

625
00:45:16,519 --> 00:45:19,880
the same John Taylor, Well, you don't have to admit that.

626
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 4: I mean I don't.

627
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,079
Speaker 3: But then sometimes people feel robbed. I felt like they

628
00:45:24,119 --> 00:45:26,280
can't believe that they literally have thought that.

629
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:27,360
Speaker 4: For ten years.

630
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:30,039
Speaker 1: It's news to them that he's actually not. But yeah,

631
00:45:30,199 --> 00:45:32,760
you know, I actually have in my acknowledgments. So thank

632
00:45:32,800 --> 00:45:39,159
you to Trevor Noah. And everyone's like Trevor Noah because

633
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:42,480
everyone like goes to the acknowledgments. You're thinking, I rather,

634
00:45:42,519 --> 00:45:48,840
it's like different Trevor no It is a different there's

635
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:49,880
two Trevor Noahs.

636
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:53,599
Speaker 2: Yes, oh interesting, that's hilarious.

637
00:45:53,639 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: My team he worked with, My research team is amazing.

638
00:45:58,199 --> 00:46:00,800
But yeah, it's a different Trevor now. But I should

639
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:01,480
just say.

640
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:02,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, how many kids do you?

641
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,280
Speaker 1: Totally? Yeah, Trevor Noah was really helpful.

642
00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:08,559
Speaker 4: How many?

643
00:46:08,639 --> 00:46:12,159
Speaker 1: He's been a great supporter. I have two kids fifteen

644
00:46:12,199 --> 00:46:15,519
and eleven. And what you're saying is what's it like

645
00:46:15,559 --> 00:46:19,119
to be a mom? Yeah? It was different before COVID

646
00:46:19,159 --> 00:46:23,119
because all of a sudden they were making a documentary

647
00:46:23,159 --> 00:46:28,920
about me at that time, right, so Joe Berlinger was

648
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:34,840
making a documentary about my investigation process. And it's called

649
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:39,719
I'm like, it's called I Think Confronting a serial Killer,

650
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:44,519
and it is on all major streaming platforms right now.

651
00:46:46,079 --> 00:46:51,719
And all of a sudden, they couldn't go to the city,

652
00:46:52,199 --> 00:46:55,400
the other cities they had to go to. So I've

653
00:46:55,400 --> 00:46:58,679
got two kids in the house now. I had it

654
00:46:59,039 --> 00:47:02,880
managed so that, like they were out of the house

655
00:47:03,119 --> 00:47:09,119
before the interviews were happening. We have an open floor plan.

656
00:47:11,199 --> 00:47:15,920
You can hear anything that's going on. So like what

657
00:47:16,119 --> 00:47:18,960
was going on is I was talking to a serial

658
00:47:19,079 --> 00:47:24,599
killer for hours a day, and like, you don't you

659
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:29,920
really don't unless like I'm saying, you know, meaning purpose,

660
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:34,800
I would will stand on a soapbox on the corner

661
00:47:35,280 --> 00:47:39,159
in downtown LA with this book and just say, please

662
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:44,039
hear these victims. See these victims never fall to passion

663
00:47:45,199 --> 00:47:47,840
like this. But like to move my kids around like

664
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:50,679
they're a piece of furniture so they didn't have to

665
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:56,559
hear his voice, just because you know, we were just

666
00:47:56,719 --> 00:47:59,000
all stuck in the house together. We had a COVID

667
00:47:59,159 --> 00:48:03,719
truck in our driveway. Thank god. The COVID guy. I

668
00:48:03,880 --> 00:48:09,119
was like, really got along with Jovie. They're playing tagment,

669
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:12,119
you know, So it felt like, oh, well, you know,

670
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:21,199
here's sort of this incredible like enclosed creative environment. And

671
00:48:21,519 --> 00:48:28,639
also I'm the you know, I'm the victim. I'm victim.

672
00:48:28,679 --> 00:48:33,639
One always like to have a camera up your nose

673
00:48:34,519 --> 00:48:39,239
for every single second of these conversations, you know, and

674
00:48:40,159 --> 00:48:44,639
and do interviews that are nine hours long. And I

675
00:48:44,639 --> 00:48:49,320
mean it was it was incredibly difficult for my family.

676
00:48:49,880 --> 00:48:55,039
And I think now, so fifteen seems to be about

677
00:48:55,079 --> 00:48:57,920
the age that the kids start getting into true crime.

678
00:48:59,400 --> 00:49:05,719
And so now my kid thinks he's cool because it,

679
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:09,239
I know, because his mom, you know, got a serial

680
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:14,000
killer to confess that. Now they you know, now it's cool.

681
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:17,079
But like, I also have kids who comment on my

682
00:49:17,159 --> 00:49:20,159
Instagram like my mom won't let me buy your bo

683
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:24,440
I mean, I'm like, she's probably right, dude.

684
00:49:25,320 --> 00:49:28,079
Speaker 3: I have a fifteen year old son, and I cannot

685
00:49:28,119 --> 00:49:29,159
imagine him reading this.

686
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,400
Speaker 1: No, I mean, my kids don't read this. Yeah, they

687
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,559
don't read this. Yeah, but they know what I do. Yeah,

688
00:49:35,599 --> 00:49:38,840
of course, you know. It's not like I'm like I'm

689
00:49:38,880 --> 00:49:42,440
going to you know, volunteer at the Red Cross or something,

690
00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:45,719
you know. Yeah, I mean, you know, I work in

691
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:53,400
difficult I work with difficult and fringe subject matter. You know,

692
00:49:53,599 --> 00:49:57,960
I am difficult and fringe subject matter. I'm going to

693
00:49:58,119 --> 00:50:03,519
change all my moments, change all my like bios to

694
00:50:03,599 --> 00:50:04,280
that right now.

695
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 3: So did you make I'm close to any of the

696
00:50:06,440 --> 00:50:13,840
victims' families, Yes, and to Sam's family, you know, like

697
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:18,920
I became very close with his niece, who is just

698
00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:24,000
I mean, if I could say, like the damage that

699
00:50:25,039 --> 00:50:29,800
Sam did to my brain, to my family to just

700
00:50:29,920 --> 00:50:32,519
like I just felt like I was in the ultimate ring.

701
00:50:33,199 --> 00:50:35,599
Speaker 1: You know, it was one of the ways we connected.

702
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:39,400
Like I'm a big I'm a big fan of the fights.

703
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:43,639
I was raised that way. I can talk about, you know,

704
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:46,480
pound for pound, who you think is the best in

705
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:51,400
the world, you know, and you know, and that's how

706
00:50:51,440 --> 00:50:53,559
I got to Sam was a boxer. He was a

707
00:50:53,599 --> 00:50:57,000
boxer's a millweight boxer in prison, which at the time

708
00:50:57,079 --> 00:51:01,559
in the fifties was you know, like a funnel into

709
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:06,440
the actual boxing world. So it was possible that he

710
00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:11,599
could have, you know, been a successful boxer, except you

711
00:51:11,639 --> 00:51:18,280
know what I mean, I just I can't say what

712
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,960
I really want to say right now. But he was

713
00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:25,639
a coward at the end of the day, Like he

714
00:51:25,760 --> 00:51:29,840
won and one and one and the minute he lost,

715
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:34,280
he got his lips split. He was so vain that

716
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:38,599
he threw his boxing gloves in the trash and never

717
00:51:38,639 --> 00:51:42,039
picked him up again, and then just started picking on women.

718
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:49,960
That's when he started killing. Oh wow, yeah, And I'm

719
00:51:50,000 --> 00:51:55,079
just like, really, you got your lips split like this tooth?

720
00:51:55,159 --> 00:51:58,920
You know how expensive this tooth is, your front tooth?

721
00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:03,039
You know how much it hurts? Right now, I press

722
00:52:03,079 --> 00:52:06,280
on it like that because I got hit in the face.

723
00:52:07,559 --> 00:52:09,599
I was boxing. I got hit in the face. I

724
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:16,000
just I just I rolled the wrong direction right into

725
00:52:16,079 --> 00:52:19,000
an elbow and had to go to my dentist and

726
00:52:19,039 --> 00:52:22,960
he was like, your teeth are so expensive. You've been

727
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,920
hitting the face so many times. Like I had to

728
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,920
get a root canal and have her replace. I know.

729
00:52:30,559 --> 00:52:34,440
Speaker 4: We talked a lot, like it's a big topic for us.

730
00:52:34,440 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 1: Serial killers and teeth, well, you know, they're not unrelated.

731
00:52:39,599 --> 00:52:43,840
I mean seriously, they take you know, like the human

732
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:50,199
body becomes a thing they want to own, right, So,

733
00:52:50,519 --> 00:52:53,639
like one thing Sam is. One thing that makes Sam

734
00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:58,239
remarkable is he drew all his victims, right, So if

735
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,039
they had say a gold too, which was how they

736
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:05,760
just identified one of the victims, in Pasca Goula, Mississippi,

737
00:53:06,559 --> 00:53:09,440
was that gold tooth, you know, and they were looking

738
00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,239
for those remains and looking for that map, and they

739
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:15,039
got it. They just got it. You know. It's like

740
00:53:16,039 --> 00:53:18,800
it seems every month I get to move a pin

741
00:53:19,119 --> 00:53:23,079
on my board where I actually have a board. I

742
00:53:23,119 --> 00:53:27,000
have a map, you know, because it was like ninety

743
00:53:27,039 --> 00:53:33,199
three confessions sixty three now confirm sixty three women? Like

744
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:34,239
how many women?

745
00:53:34,360 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 4: Is that easy?

746
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:39,519
Speaker 1: Like you have to actually look at it, and you know,

747
00:53:39,599 --> 00:53:42,840
I would say, go draw, map, Go draw, you know,

748
00:53:43,079 --> 00:53:45,960
and put your and put your marks on it, you know,

749
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:50,119
and then look at the thirty something odd that aren't

750
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:53,800
you know. I change them to black when they're solved,

751
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:57,440
and they're red when they're unsolved, you know. And I mean,

752
00:53:57,880 --> 00:54:00,519
I don't know when that map will ever leave my life,

753
00:54:00,559 --> 00:54:04,199
and I hope it will because I hope they close

754
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,800
all these cases. It's very unlikely that they'll close the

755
00:54:08,960 --> 00:54:13,519
entire gap. But every month there's a salt, there's a

756
00:54:13,559 --> 00:54:17,199
detective somewhere who cares and is fighting.

757
00:54:18,199 --> 00:54:21,119
Speaker 3: So everybody needs to go buy this book, Behold the

758
00:54:21,199 --> 00:54:25,920
Monster Jillian Lauren and where can we find you? On

759
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,039
social media? And what's next for you?

760
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 1: You want to know it's next for me?

761
00:54:32,559 --> 00:54:32,840
Speaker 4: Really?

762
00:54:33,079 --> 00:54:36,159
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm going to secretarial school.

763
00:54:38,519 --> 00:54:39,679
Speaker 4: I'll stop it now.

764
00:54:40,079 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 1: I that was what I That was the best I

765
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:45,000
could come up with at two am last night. You know,

766
00:54:45,119 --> 00:54:47,719
you always have this like I need a day job,

767
00:54:48,079 --> 00:54:51,199
and I'm like, I don't type fast enough, Like I

768
00:54:51,199 --> 00:54:54,440
could easily get a job as an investigator, you know,

769
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:57,360
to do that. Well, I think I may, you know,

770
00:54:57,840 --> 00:55:01,440
But also like what's next for me will always be writing.

771
00:55:02,000 --> 00:55:07,679
But this investigation thing, it got me where, it got

772
00:55:07,719 --> 00:55:12,639
me where it gets you. Like you know, when I think, oh,

773
00:55:12,719 --> 00:55:16,760
I could just go write another book about anything else,

774
00:55:16,800 --> 00:55:22,760
Like I'm really into sports, you know, and women's sports

775
00:55:22,800 --> 00:55:26,639
in particularly I think are incredibly exciting now women's fighting

776
00:55:26,800 --> 00:55:29,599
is really exciting right now. Also, I just want to

777
00:55:29,599 --> 00:55:33,880
go on with Joe Rogan and just I just want

778
00:55:33,920 --> 00:55:37,599
to count them. But I just want to give him

779
00:55:37,599 --> 00:55:42,440
on one too. But you know, I'm like I could

780
00:55:42,440 --> 00:55:46,199
do any of these things, and what I want to

781
00:55:46,199 --> 00:55:50,000
do is keep working not on Sam Little's case forever.

782
00:55:50,199 --> 00:55:53,480
Like right now, I invite all of you to read

783
00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:57,559
the book. Yes, and also you know there are victims.

784
00:55:57,639 --> 00:56:04,440
It's unsolved and more and more, you know, citizens not

785
00:56:04,719 --> 00:56:10,519
necessarily you know, like or work in conjunction right with

786
00:56:10,719 --> 00:56:17,280
law enforcement and and find people and you know, and

787
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:23,039
they're they're incredible group of citizens, sleuth's who just you know,

788
00:56:23,079 --> 00:56:25,960
they're looking at the Charlie Project and the Dope Project

789
00:56:26,039 --> 00:56:30,320
every day. So like this book is my invitation to

790
00:56:30,440 --> 00:56:35,960
everyone to just like join join the fight and not

791
00:56:36,039 --> 00:56:40,039
necessarily like it's a fight, but join the fight for

792
00:56:42,039 --> 00:56:46,840
for an equitable justice system. How about that that doesn't

793
00:56:47,199 --> 00:56:50,880
consider you know, certain victims. I mean in the eighties,

794
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:55,559
they would call these prostitutes. You know, they'd call the

795
00:56:55,679 --> 00:57:00,599
murders in they were finding women in dumpsters every morning

796
00:57:01,159 --> 00:57:03,960
in South LA and they would call them as an

797
00:57:04,519 --> 00:57:07,400
A one eighty seven on you know, Fifth and Maine.

798
00:57:07,559 --> 00:57:14,360
It's an NHI. No humans involved. Wow. Yeah, so I'm like,

799
00:57:14,440 --> 00:57:20,360
there are humans involved. Like I felt a real passion

800
00:57:20,719 --> 00:57:24,960
to humanize the victims in this book and also give

801
00:57:25,960 --> 00:57:31,119
you know, the straight science and the details and I

802
00:57:31,199 --> 00:57:36,599
mean the most unbelievably creepy interviews you could ever imagine.

803
00:57:37,599 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 4: It's all that, Jillian, You're doing the Lord's work. You

804
00:57:40,440 --> 00:57:43,639
really are. Thank you, yeah, and thank you for coming. Yeah,

805
00:57:43,719 --> 00:57:46,000
thank you. And do you have a website? Is it

806
00:57:46,079 --> 00:57:47,039
Jillian Laurence.

807
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:51,000
Speaker 1: Oh, come and yes, Jillianlauren dot com. I'm also a

808
00:57:51,079 --> 00:57:57,760
Jillian Lauren author on many things and Insta I am

809
00:57:57,920 --> 00:58:01,880
Jillian Lauren at Jillian Lauren uh and that you know.

810
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:06,119
And I've also been doing a TikTok. They my kids

811
00:58:06,480 --> 00:58:07,679
forced me.

812
00:58:08,039 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 6: I was like, absolutely not, but you know that, like

813
00:58:13,079 --> 00:58:17,840
every post I do that's like a missing person gets

814
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:22,199
thousands of views and I'm like, that's thousands of people

815
00:58:22,280 --> 00:58:24,760
that when I've seen that missing and they are going

816
00:58:24,840 --> 00:58:27,400
to talk to their friend, They're gonna talk to their mother,

817
00:58:27,440 --> 00:58:30,000
They're like somewhere it's gonna hit.

818
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:34,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I was like, fine, and I do

819
00:58:34,760 --> 00:58:39,400
have my fifteen year old running the cameras helpful?

820
00:58:39,559 --> 00:58:44,199
Speaker 3: Is that at Jillian Lauren at Jillian Lauren Okay, Jillian

821
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:44,920
learn author.

822
00:58:45,280 --> 00:58:47,599
Speaker 4: Okay, there we go. All right, well you tick tk.

823
00:58:47,519 --> 00:58:51,639
Speaker 1: I'm Jillie, I'm Jillian, I'm Jillian larn author.

824
00:58:52,199 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, we will find you. Thanks so much for coming.

825
00:58:56,320 --> 00:59:00,400
Speaker 3: Everybody, run run to wherever you buy your book hooks

826
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,199
and grab behold the monster.

827
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:06,719
Speaker 4: Yeah all right, bye, everybody, it's

828
00:59:06,960 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 1: Good that angle,